I've been experimenting with games on the Prince level... haven't actually finished one yet, but I've been trying out various schemes and ideas in the early game, just getting the feel for what I'll be up against.

But while I have been doing this, I've been kicking around an idea for an interesting challenge... and maybe, just maybe, I'll give it a go at Prince level.

The idea is this: I play Vanilla CIV (don't have Warlords) on standard continents at normal speed, but pre-select my opponents. The catch is this: Every opponent I select must have the aggressive trait, meaning I'll have to deal with six opponents who are prone to warmongering.

The lineup would thus include Alexander, Montezuma, Huayna Capac, Tokugawa, Napoleon, and either Genghis Khan or Kublai Khan (I may just flip a coin to decide which Mongol leader will be selected).

The question to be asked is this... which civ should I pick to take on the warmongering opponents? Some ideas I have:

* Caesar: They say this guy is a pretty good choice for those just starting on Prince level... only thing is, you better make sure your Praetorians aren't running into Axemen.
* Catherine: I like the combination of Creative and Financial, and Cossacks are very good for waging war. But I've played several games with Catherine, so it might be worth trying a different civ.
* Gandhi or Saladin: Could be possible to use one of these leaders to pursue an early religion, then try to spread it. Of course, certain warmongering folks (Monty, Capac) won't shy away from chasing religions.

Or I could be even more daring... the AI leaders are assigned, but mine is random. Just how much of a glutton for punishment could I be? :lol:

So I ask all of you these questions:

1. Which leader should I pick, or do I select "random" and take my chances?
2. What would be the ideal strategy to pursue with every opponent a warmongerer? Pursue an early religion, play the diplomacy game, early rush at least one opponent while trying to make nice with another?
3. Should I go with the mindset that I'll pursue a peaceful victory? Could be even more satisfying if it happens against a bunch of guys who are prone to war to settle their differences first (although Capac is no slouch when it comes to teching, and I've noticed Alex and Nappy can sometimes make strides in that area).

I'd take Ghengis over Kublai if you want someone who causes trouble, Kublai tends to only wage "smart" wars (ones he knows he will win or benefit from). Stuff like this is far more interesting on Pangea type maps. Russia is a prime choice, Cossacks are the only UU of what is generally considered the most useful warmongering unit of the industrial age, you can beeline to MT near the end of the rennisance era.

I'd go for a fairly balanced game, and have big garrisons in every city. Try to cripple someone with an earlyish axe rush. If you havn't captured your continent by military tradition, use those cossacks to subjugate your continent, as the AI suck at naval warfare.

ratrangerm,

Customising your game with the Aggressive leaders can be a good learning approach, and you can throw in 'Aggressive AI' on your customised settings to 'push the envelope' a little further.

I'm not sure if the purpose of the exercise is to; break builder habits, become more flexible in your playstyle (e.g. mastering AI dogpiles), or just win on what you might consider to be tougher setting.

I would select 'random' if you want to self-educate on becoming flexible - or maybe pick a Spiritual leader with 'unremarkable' traits such as Isabella or Asoka to allow quick civic switching which lends further to a flexible playstyle. I would look at Russia, China, Rome or England if you want an especially potent UU (although you can put a case for most UUs as being potent in their own way if used well) and just want to win. If you're wanting to break builder-style play, perhaps avoid an Industrious civ as you'll possibly be tempted towards the dreaded Wonder addiction.

These are general suggestions only.

I would fight 'fire with fire' and play aggressively also. Wait to see what's going on before channeling your strategy too much.

Best of luck.

OK, so I'm leaning toward either Catherine or Peter, thus enabling me to get Cossacks. I've played as Catherine often, so switching to Peter might make for an interesting game. Cossacks, I have found, are very ideal for attacking cities once Cats or Cannons strip the defenses.

Cam, part of the reason for this challenge is, as you thought, to give myself a tougher setting, but also to find out what possibilities could exist for diplomacy with the warmongering civs. For example, I've noticed in the games I've played that Napoleon will be on good terms with you if you share the same religion, but he doesn't really warm up and become your friend unless you happen to have Representation as one of your civics.

So it might be interesting to see how well things go from a diplomatic standpoint, particularly if I can make friends with one of the other civs and get them to attack somebody else. I think it's good to learn about what these civs tend to favor in terms of what can make them friendly with you.

Obviously, an early rush of a nearby civ will be part of the initial plan going in, but I would need to stay flexible depending on what resources I have available. Teching is probably going to have focus more on finding the strategic resources, meaning Iron Working will be a priority, along with the usual suspects of BW and AH.

At any rate, I'll generate the game and post the initial starting position later today.

OK, so the game has been started... I decided to go with Peter. Here's the settings:

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/2146/civ4screenshot0046do2.th.jpg (http://img209.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot0046do2.jpg)

And here is the starting position:

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/608/civ4screenshot0047se5.th.jpg (http://img209.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot0047se5.jpg)

So we have ourselves some river territory, and plenty of forest for chopping, but no resources can be seen. We aren't that far from the coast, either.

There are two spots we could move the Scout. One option would be to move him to the forested hill just north of where the Settler is, and we might find out if some better land is up north. Another option is to move the Scout to the grassland square to the east of the Settler.

If I settle in place, the fat cross shouldn't have any of that desert, but settling further inland might be a better option if there is better territory surrounding us.

So which square should I move the Scout to? Knowing what else is around me will help me to decide whether to settle right where I am or whether I need to move.

I've attached the saved game in case anybody wants to play along.

I've attached the saved game in case anybody wants to play along.

Um, you did? Cuz I'm tempted to Shadow this one.

OK, the Russians, like the Germans, start with Hunting and Mining. This pairing goes nicely with a rapid expansion, and trees fit very nicely with that. I'd want to go with a start that leverages both of those techs: Bronzeworking timed to coincide with the delivery of a worker, followed by a bunch of lawnmowing.

My plan would be to train another scout, trying to time the scout to finish when I reach size two, and then beginning a worker. After six of training the worker, crack the whip and start mowing the lawns. It's not quite so smooth as I would like - you can't get 22 food and 15 hammers to come out even unless you have a 3F tile in the inner ring, but the surplus will carry forward.

If the terrain were suitable, I might consider a run to caste system at that point: Mysticism, Meditation, Priesthood, Writing, Oracle, possibly with a food tech tucked in there - the worker(s) will be busy with the trees for a while, but Animal Loving would be nice to pick off the horses. It seems a bit weird to be expansive but neglect pottery, but I think its called for here.

Whoops! I forgot something important! :mad:

OK, here it is now. I'll wait until tomorrow afternoon to continue with anything. Apologies for forgetting the saved game in my previous post.

Meant to add that, since I'm not seriously considering settling anywhere else, I'l probably run the scout SE along the river. Alternatives I considered were NE (to reveal the hidden tiles in the fat cross - but if you don't like them, then what?) and NW to scout for fish along the coast.

Round 1: 4000 BC to 2120 BC

OK, so I've advanced to the point of having my first settler built. There's a reason I delayed that a bit, which I'll get to in the update.

First of all, I decided to move my Scout to the forested hill to the north and he revealed cows on a plains square. I figured that was good enough, and so I founded where my settler was.

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/3586/civ4screenshot00016ac.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

And then we discovered rice to the southeast. This would end up being in a location that I figured would be ideal for my second city, but more on that later.

With all the forest to chop and the need to find copper, I selected Bronze Working as my first tech. I also went with VoU's thought process of building a Scout first.

Not much hut action to speak of, unfortunately... I got a map in the first one, the second one I get to has 30 gold, and then I get attacked by a lion. I head off to try for a third hut that the map revealed, but found somebody beat me to it.

Figuring one of my rivals was south of me, I explored that way... but first, I got my first tech.

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/9260/civ4screenshot00065rt.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

My second scout finished about then, so it was on to build a Worker. I also switched my civics to get Slavery going.

And as I headed south, sure enough, I found out who my nearest neighbor is.

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/795/civ4screenshot00099gs.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Yep, looks like we have our victim for the first early rush. No doubt Monty will be chasing Iron Working... but that's OK, becuase Axemen can beat Jaguars in most cases.

Buddhism had been founded just prior to my initial meeting with Monty. More to come on religions.

I then got my next tech, chosen because of those Cows near Moscow.

http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/2194/civ4screenshot00109ud.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I went with The Wheel next so I can hook up resources. It should be noted I found copper just outside Moscow's borders.

And now we get back to religions... Hinduism had been founded somewhere, and guess who was the one to found it?

http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/4229/civ4screenshot00127ae.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I can only assume Alex wants the Parthenon... as far as the religion situation goes, it would be ideal if Monty founds Judaism, or at the very least, Hinduism spreads to me and to nobody else on my continent. Otherwise, we could have a sticky situation on our hands. (Actually, I should note Alex founded Hinduism just after I met up with him.)

And then I learn that I have three neighbors to share this continent with... and it figures it would be this guy.

http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/4573/civ4screenshot00156me.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Yes, I know... I made the decision to put Toku into this game, but I was hoping that he would at least be sent to the other continent so I can get Open Borders with all and scout my neighbors.

Tech wise, I followed Wheel with Mysticism, then Polytheism. I'm going to see if I can get to the Oracle first. There's plenty of forest to chop to help speed it along.

My build queue after the Worker ended up with a Warrior first... then I lost one of my Scouts to an unlucky encounter with a lion. So I cracked the whip to finish the Warrior when it was one turn from completion, and the overflow went to another Scout, and I still had a quick production time for the second Warrior, and finally started the Settler after that.

Two forest chops later, we have arrived at this point.

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/4083/civ4screenshot00163li.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

So that now brings us to the question... where does the next city go? Here's the map.

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/681/civ4screenshot00172hw.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I'm really liking that hill to the SW with the Rice and Gold adjacent to it, and a culture pop could include an Oasis. That would make a great production city. I don't think it's necessary to found near the Copper as my borders around Moscow are about to pop again and the Copper will then be in my territory.

There are Horses to the east and I'm sure Alex, who is that way, will be hurrying in that direction. Stone is to the North as well.

So now the questions to ask are as follows:

1. I think the Rice/Gold site wins out for city #2, but where to go after that?
2. I'm aiming for Priesthood after Poly is researched, and will be readying another Warrior, then another Settler for city #3. How soon after that should I get started on the Oracle?
3. Would it be best to target Monty first? Or do we take a chance on going after Alex? Biggest thing to keep in mind is Alex founded Hinduism, so much depends on where his religion spreads.

Saved game is attached and I welcome your thoughts.

General commentary - I think your tech path is a bit loose. Bronze Working, I approve of. Animal Husbandry is OK, although with the rice parked at what you think is going to be city #2, maybe the Agriculture discount is in order.

Wheel >> Mysticism >> Polytheism looks weak to me. Let's look carefully at The Wheel

(1) The cows are connected to Moscow by the river, so you don't need a road there.
(2) The rice is connected to Moscow by the river, so you don't need a road there.
(3) That gold mine you covet is connected to Moscow by the river, so you don't need a road there
(4) If you put the rice gold city on the river (my preference - pick up the cows as well), the you don't need a road there either.

And doesn't your worker have better things to do than building roads (like mowing the lawns?)


1. I think the Rice/Gold site wins out for city #2, but where to go after that?
2. I'm aiming for Priesthood after Poly is researched, and will be readying another Warrior, then another Settler for city #3. How soon after that should I get started on the Oracle?
3. Would it be best to target Monty first? Or do we take a chance on going after Alex? Biggest thing to keep in mind is Alex founded Hinduism, so much depends on where his religion spreads.

Hmm... rather than answer these, I'll just mention that Rice/Gold was not my #2 city - and somewhere in your post is the reason why.

OK, the question I'd pose in return is this:

The Copper that would get included in Moscow's borders with the additional culture pop to come is _not_ connected along the river. I'd take your point about not going for The Wheel as quickly as I did, but considering the Copper has no river access, Wheel was obviously needed at some point.

I take it your thinking on city #2 then is to go near the Copper? Or going for the Horses or Stone? I may need to sit down and do the dot map before proceeding to get an idea about ideal city locations. (EDIT: Just after I posted, I noticed it is possible to get a city with the Copper and Stone in its radius. I really do need to look at my dot map.)

OK, I looked at the map and drew out three potential city sites. I lettered them in the order they might be settled, assuming we don't go for Rice/Gold at this time. The dot map is attached.

(A): Stone and copper in the radius. The only drawback is there won't be that much food, but that should be OK, as since it would be a production city, we don't want it getting too big.
(B): The horses city, which eventually claims wheat with a border pop
(C): The rice/gold city... the exact location could be adjusted, though.

Round 2: 2120 BC to 1280 BC

I kept this round relatively short as the focus was on building cities, but I've reached a juncture where I need to make a decision. I'll get to that soon enough.

First of all, I thought about it and decided that Copper/Stone would win out for my second city... I just had to remember the rule that the second city is best to be a production city, which Rice/Gold wouldn't be as ideal for.

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/8721/civ4screenshot00185dq.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

St. Petersburg started a Worker, then will do a Barracks while said Worker mines the Copper, then chops forest to speed it along (and whip cracking will also help). Moscow continued its process of producing Warriors and Settlers while the Woker continued chopping trees.

I got Poly and then went to Priesthood as the plan is to build Oracle. After Priesthood was completed, I pushed on to Writing.

As I did, I got the news that Judaism had been founded somewhere, and the next turn, I found out who did so.

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/5568/civ4screenshot00227vl.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

So that means Monty is certain to be Alex's throat before long... that's a good thing, as then they aren't as likely to team up.

Meanwhile, my third city was founded by the Horses. I was lucky that Alex decided to go south in pursuit of Copper that was there, and the forest chopping helped speed up my quest for city No. 3.

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/168/civ4screenshot00236gr.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I had Novgorod start an Obelisk so its borders will pop and claim that Wheat. I'll also claim some Spices, which will be useful down the road.

Writing was completed and now was the time to start seeking Open Borders with every one. Two accepted and one didn't. One guess who didn't.

http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/7199/civ4screenshot00286ua.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

At any rate, I went with Masonry after Writing... yes, I know Alphabet might have been a better choice since I won't be using that Stone right away, but between the fact I didn't find much gold from huts (thanks to animals killing my Scouts), meaning my tech slider will drop, and the fact Toku won't likely trading anything with me means I need to grab at least a couple of cheap techs before Alphabet. I'm hoping either Alex or Monty has Pottery (I'm sure they'll both have Archery and Alex starts with Fishing) so I can trade for that.

After Masonry, I opted for Agriculture so I can work the Rice for my next city, which will indeed be Rice/Gold.

Which brings me to the point where I ended this round... Warrior and Settler are good to go in Athens for city No. 4. Here's the map.

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/8529/civ4screenshot00303xf.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Alex is pursuing that Copper to the south for sure, and I'm certain he'll go claim those Horses to the SE of Athens. I don't know much about Monty's land with my Scouts getting knocked off by animals, but I'm on the way to explore with the one who is out and about.

I'm doing another Scout in Moscow as it can be finished in one turn, but now I come to this decision to be made.

I want to build the Oracle. I have two options right now:

1. Start Oracle immediately after the Scout, chop the remaining forest and use the whip to speed it along, then go back to building units and Settlers to claim more territory. There is at least one site I'm eyeing and there may be at least one other to consider.
2. Get that fifth city site claimed first... it's south of Novgorod where Cows and an Oasis are located. I'm thinking Alex may pass it up to get the Copper and Horses near his territory. Monty might chase the Horses to the far south, but I don't know if he'll go further north, as I don't know yet if he has Copper to the south of his territory.

Also, the decision on who to target first will likely depend a lot on where religion spreads. If Hinduism comes my way, then I'd better buddy up with Alex and take Monty first. If it's Judaism, then making friends with Monty and targeting Alex first makes sense. Toku will only become a concern if religion spreads to his lands, which is possible when he gets Writing as he seems to have no problem opening his borders to other AI Civs.

So I'll pose these questions to you:

* Oracle first, then another Settler, or get city No. 5 first, then go for Oracle?
* Does my plan on who to target first (Alex or Monty) sound like the right plan of action?

Saved game attached and thoughts are welcome.

if judaism spreads to you, try to make monty your pet dog, if hinduism spreads to you, make alex your pet dog. then attack the other one

ie you become montys friend attack alex and visa versa

First of all, I thought about it and decided that Copper/Stone would win out for my second city... I just had to remember the rule that the second city is best to be a production city, which Rice/Gold wouldn't be as ideal for.

I think you are going to end up regretting the placement of St. Pete. There's just not enough food available up there to do anything interesting - as I recall, even after CS it is going to be awkward to irrigate it. You aren't going to get nearly as many hammers from this city as the resources would suggest.


I got Poly and then went to Priesthood as the plan is to build Oracle. After Priesthood was completed, I pushed on to Writing.

My game saw a significant improvement when I adapting my play to circumstances. Here, you've made a move toward harvesting stone, and in particular harvesting the stone early, but you aren't following it up by improving and connecting the stone, and you aren't following it up by setting up a play for a wonder that benefits from the stone production doubler.

In other words, your individual plays are not connecting to one another.

Meanwhile, my third city was founded by the Horses.

That was my third city as well - but I founded it one tile east to grab the extra floodplains. I feel confident that proper play is to place this city second. My error was failing to revise my assessment of my sites after Animal Loving came in.

At any rate, I went with Masonry after Writing... yes, I know Alphabet might have been a better choice since I won't be using that Stone right away

OK, this doesn't make sense - if you can't or won't leverage the tech right away, it should wait (remember, techs are cheaper after more civs discover them). The right answer is to find some way to use it.

but between the fact I didn't find much gold from huts (thanks to animals killing my Scouts), meaning my tech slider will drop, and the fact Toku won't likely trading anything with me means I need to grab at least a couple of cheap techs before Alphabet. I'm hoping either Alex or Monty has Pottery (I'm sure they'll both have Archery and Alex starts with Fishing) so I can trade for that.

Reverse this logic - Pottery allows you to improve tiles with cottages, which when worked will contribute to your economy, to make up for the lost scouting revenue. Furthermore, the granaries you build will allow your population to recover much more quickly after you hurry production... this effectively doubles your :food: : :hammers: ratio.

Plus, Peter is Expansive, so his granary is cheaper.

In short, the tech offers much better chances than Masonry. And waiting to trade for it? That's deep.


After Masonry, I opted for Agriculture so I can work the Rice for my next city, which will indeed be Rice/Gold.

Good on holding off on Agriculture until you needed it. Better would have been to recognize that you were going to need it shortly, and arranged to need is sooner (delay settling copper/rock, planning horse/wheat and rice/gold instead, slotting in agriculture ahead of animal husbandry as soon as you realized that rice/gold was an early claim, etc).



I'm doing another Scout in Moscow as it can be finished in one turn, but now I come to this decision to be made.

This was probably weak - you've missed the goodie huts by now, so you are just mapping. Youve got enough sites picked out, so get going on that, then worry about the scout to identify your targets after opening the borders.


I want to build the Oracle.


OK - but think ahead. What tech are you going to ask the Oracle for? how are you going to use the great prophet that is born in 50 turns? How many turns does it take to build the Oracle, and if it takes that long will another civ beat you to it?

BTW: Whipping in Moscow is a bad idea - you don't have the bulding to support it, and the city doesn't have a good growth rate. Take a long look at the population of Moscow and the population of Athens, and consider the implications.

OK, so it looks like the plan should be this:

* Get going on city site No. 5 first. There's still forest to chop so that can be sped up. I have Spearmen now and I'm generally fine with building defensive units in cities that don't have Barracks.

* Get to Pottery ASAP. Then forget any other cheap techs left and pursue Alphabet. Since I don't have much jungle near me at this point, Iron Working can wait a while.

* Get the Stone at least hooked up. From there, decide what Wonder is best to pursue. Chances are I won't get to Stonehenge, and the Oracle will be passed on (and yes, I probably should have switched out sooner once I saw no Marble nearby). Pyramids is a risk and only makes sense if I want to do a SE. Chichen Itza would lend itself well to protecting cities, but is it really necessary here?

I'll freely admit this is still a learning process for me, particularly since higher levels do require more attention to detail.

Only thing I will disagree with you on is that AH should have been a high priority because of the Cows in Moscow's BFC. Working the Cows with a Pasture, combined with forest chopping, speeds up Settler production more, so I maintain that should have coming after BW. Had the Cows been outside the BFC, then yes, AH goes further down the list.

Only thing I will disagree with you on is that AH should have been a high priority because of the Cows in Moscow's BFC. Working the Cows with a Pasture, combined with forest chopping, speeds up Settler production more, so I maintain that should have coming after BW. Had the Cows been outside the BFC, then yes, AH goes further down the list.

You may be right - the opening approach I chose had me throwing lumber, instead of building a pasture. Given that approach, scoring Animal Husbandry was a lower priority.

But that approach may have been wrong - roughly speaking, I'm getting a small handful of extra beakers, and hammers from one of my chops delivered 8 turns early. Your approach brought the pasture on-line 7 turns earlier...

Yeah, I think I goofed. Thanks.

Hey, we both made mistakes, so now we're even. ;)

Seriously, now comes the time I need to take your advice and play with the map. So tonight, I'll start the next round, switching research to Pottery, then back to Alphabet. From there, I think Code of Laws needs to be pursued, and it's very likely I'll have six cities up and running (just need to decide where city No. 6 will go) so that I can get to work on Courthouses.

Literature can come later... the Great Library will be good for whatever science city I choose, but I still need to determine what city will get that honor (Moscow not likely... it'll be good for commerce when cottaged up, but it's not going to produce enough to get GL done in a timely fashion, especially if I'm having people concentrate on working the cottages) and aggressive AI civs generally don't pursue Literature that early.

I'll also have to debate on how soon to pursue Calendar, given that we have Silk and Spices. Health isn't that big of an issue with Peter's Expansive trait, but Happiness will be something to keep an eye on. Of course, Calendar obsoletes Obelisks, so that's something else to consider.

Round 3: 1280 BC to 475 BC

I was still needing to finish up Agriculture, so I let that one complete, and then I switched Moscow's build to a Warrior and will follow with a Settler for City No. 5. In the meantime, Rice/Gold became the site for City No. 4.

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/8984/civ4screenshot00318vu.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I started a Worker there and will follow with a Library for a culture pop... this city will be good for a commerce city with the border pop, and can be useful for producing defensive units and Cats (I generally am fine with building Cats in non-production cities because they are cheap and they are generally fine without promotions... in fact, I've had several instances in offline games in which unpromoted Cats emerged victorious against weaker or damaged units when they went on their suicide runs).

So Ag was done and Pottery followed, and then the inevitable started happening.

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/483/civ4screenshot00344ac.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Yep, here come the barbies. My cities were defended only with Warriors, but every time a barb Warrior attacked, my Warriors stood their ground, and one even got promoted. A barbie Axe showed up, but by that point, I had Axemen ready for it.

And yes, I'm sticking with Axemen not just for attacking, but for defending against incoming barbs... they can handle all barb units until barb Horse Archers show up, and that won't happen for some time.

Meanwhile, city No. 5 was founded at the Cow/Oasis site and was assigned to build a Worker, with the intention of a Library going there.

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/6852/civ4screenshot00365kn.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

And then a couple turns later, a development occurred that pretty much decides who we will want to make our friend...

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/9862/civ4screenshot00373ap.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

So now we know Alex is the guy we want to buddy up with... I didn't convert to Hinduism right away as I was still teching to Alpha and wanted to see if Monty had techs I needed.

Along the way, I learned Monty built Stonehenge but it didn't have the indicator as to which city it was in. The Pyramids was built somewhere, but not by anybody on the continent.

At long last, Alphabet was ours and it was time to go shopping. Toku, of course, wouldn't trade anything, and Alpha was the only tech I had on Alex (lesson to be learned about being careful with what you tech). Monty, however, did not have Writing or Priesthood, so I went to him first (hence it was a good move not to convert to Hinduism so quickly).

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/9199/civ4screenshot00414yn.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

A two-for-one for Writing isn't a bad deal... I didn't think I could pry Iron Working from him even if I offered Priesthood and I don't want Monty getting too much tech from me. I can either research IW myself (since everyone else on the continent has it, it won't take that long) or I can trade with Alex once CoL (which I'm researching) is completed.

Some state of the world info to follow in the next post.

OK, first of all, here's the tech situation with Alex.

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/9854/civ4screenshot00425zy.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I imagine he'll trade Sailing with me, but that will wait... I figure Alex is going for Monarchy to get Hereditary Rule, so I should have CoL before him. I'll be converting to Hinduism soon enough and that should make it easier to trade tech with Alex.

And now for Monty.

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/4830/civ4screenshot00430bi.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Still have Priesthood and Alpha on him and I think it's best to keep it that way. He's the first target, no sense in helping him any more.

And then there's Toku.

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/9544/civ4screenshot00444cj.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I've noticed in other games that Toku tends to push toward Currency, but it's certainly possible he's pursuing CoL to get a step closer to Samurai. On one hand, that might look like it's a problem if he gets ahead of me in tech.

Then again, consider this...

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/5783/civ4screenshot00455iq.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Yep, Toku signed Open Borders with Alex... he does not have the "we care for our brothers and sisters of the faith" modifier so Hinduism has not yet spread to his lands. If Toku doesn't get to CoL before me, chances are good Hinduism will spread to Toku as well. That means Toku will convert, and my conversion means Toku will warm up to me and will trade some tech. Judaism won't spread there as Toku does not have Open Borders with Monty.

Another good thing is Toku isn't warming up to Monty so he won't mind if I attack Monty, particularly if Toku does become Hindu.

Here's the map for the northern part of the continent.

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/9691/civ4screenshot00513ef.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

And the southern part.

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/9478/civ4screenshot00524xb.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

So what's to come and what questions to consider:

* I'm converting to Hinduism to start bettering relations with Alex. If Toku gets Hinduism and converts, that gives me another tech partner once I go to war with Monty.
* I know people say you should raze Monty's cities as much as possible, but I had an early war with him in a Noble game and he didn't go sending tons of units after my stacks. Plus, barbs are showing up and, last time I razed Monty's cities in a game, the barbs took over right away. Do I stick with the usual plan for Monty, or should I keep his good cities and raze the rest?
* After CoL, what tech should come next? Beeline to Construction? Try for Calendar? Head to Currency? Several choices to consider. Also, should I just research IW myself or wait for a trade?
* Any thoughts on sites for my sixth city? I don't have a coastal city yet, but since there aren't any good spots for one, it can probably wait. There's mostly jungle to the south, but I'm betting at least one spot there has Iron, given the lack of other resources.

Saved game is attached and thoughts are welcome.

OK, so I'm hoping to play a little more of this challenge tonight. After having learned a few things from other offline games, I think the plan of action will be as follows:

* Clear out the barb city to the southwest. It will most likely be razed.

* Continue building up the army.

* Hold off on building city No. 6 at this time, as I have to watch maintenance.

* Scout Monty's territory some more, to confirm the location of the Jewish holy city and where Stonehenge was built. Those two cities have to be kept... the rest will need to be razed so maintenance costs don't hurt me too much. I can always go back and fill in spots as needed.

* Leaning toward Currency for research after CoL, then heading to Construction. Much will depend on how my economy is doing.

Round 4: 475 BC to 150 BC

Yes, a short round. Had to keep it short as I've hit a critical juncture.

First of all, it turns out our decision to forget pursuing the Oracle was a good thing.

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/1923/civ4screenshot00530ja.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

One of the civs on the other continent built it. I'm betting on Huayna Cupac, as he starts with Mysticism and is most likely to be pursuing an early religion.

Meanwhile, I sent an Axemen to check out the Barbarian city.

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/9710/civ4screenshot00558bu.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Not very well defended at this point. I had my Axemen attack one of the Warriors for experience, and the other Warrior never bothered to counter attack despite my Axemen being injured.

Moscow was the first city to complete a library. I then made it a point to do this to Moscow, and would do the same to other cities:

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/7922/civ4screenshot00545ao.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I have to do this as my cities are hitting the happiness thresholds. Once my Rice/Gold city pops its borders, I can then get that Gold mined and my cities can grow a bit more.

Then another development occurred along the way... one that I knew was going to have implications on the game...

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/5927/civ4screenshot00560nh.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

St. Petersburg was the city to which Judaism spread, and it looks like it spread on its own. Perhaps I should have removed Open Borders with Monty sooner, but I was Scouting his lands, trying to find out where he built Stonehenge.

And yes, Monty did ask me to convert to Judaism. I turned him down... he remained Cautious, though.

Alexander would complete the Hindu holy shrine, and not long after that, I acquired a key tech in my strategy:

http://img318.imageshack.us/img318/268/civ4screenshot00586rs.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I was not the first to get it, though... somebody on the other continent got to it first. The good news, though, is nobody else on my continent researched it.

Before I did some tech trading, I had another matter to first tend to.

http://img318.imageshack.us/img318/1230/civ4screenshot00597lj.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Since the barb city was so far away from my lands and not founded in an ideal spot, I razed it. The extra gold will help with my teching.

After my turn was completed and I checked my cities to ensure their growth was halted/slowed and scientist specialists were assigned to every city with a library, I checked the tech situation for everyone, and went to Alex to see what I could get.

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/7223/civ4screenshot00603hi.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I was very pleased to get a two-for-one deal for CoL. Sailing will put me closer to Calendar, which we will need eventually for some resources we have, and Iron Working will definitely be useful.

And as it turned out, Iron was not that far away from my starting position.

http://img318.imageshack.us/img318/8919/civ4screenshot00616bb.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Getting it by Moscow, and within its BFC, was great... now Moscow can serve as a decent production city as needed.

State of the world post to follow.

OK, first of all, the tech situation with Monty:

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/7776/civ4screenshot00621pu.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

So I still have Alpha and CoL on Monty. I wonder if he's going for Construction... that means I better put it on my priority list.

As for Toku...

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/5216/civ4screenshot00634kt.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Same situation as Monty. The fact he doesn't have Alpha means he won't be trading with Alex. I've still got Alpha on Alex, so he can't tech trade with anyone but me.

Here's the power graph.

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/5361/civ4screenshot00647lm.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

As to be expected... Monty is in the lead, so when I head after him, I better take it one step at a time... raze a city, then sue for peace as soon as I can, only to rebuild and go harass him again when the peace treaty expires.

The GNP graph:

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/9827/civ4screenshot00657qf.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I'm doing pretty well here... an attack on Monty will chip his rate down.

And manufactured goods:

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/742/civ4screenshot00669td.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Monty is far ahead of me... yet another reason to attack him.

Not much has changed on the map, except that Monty has founded a couple more cities, and Alex has founded one as well.

Things I'm planning for the next round:

* Cancel Open Borders with Monty, get my Scout to check out Alex some more, then gather the troops together and prepare to attack Monty.
* Once I do declare war, that's when I'll convert to Hinduism. I want to make sure I throw the first punch to Monty and put him on the defensive.
* After Math is researched, I think the order of researc should be Construction, then Currency, then Literature. Construction should come first, IMO, so I can get the Cats going, then build Markets.
* Moscow will help St. Pete with building units for now. I'll probably forget a Barracks in Moscow, and have the Axemen it builds stick around in my borders, just in case Monty sends a Jaguar or two up my way.

Any other feedback is welcome... the saved game is attached.

Round Five: 150 BC to 300 AD

OK, I haven't started my first invasion yet. Let's just say some developments occurred as I was piecing together my army that are making me wonder if I should change my plans for an early rush on Monty to an early rush on Alex.

Briefly updating some things: I teched to get Mathematics, then Construction, then Literature and am now pursuing Currency.

One of the developments was that I got my first Great Scientist in Moscow.

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/8480/civ4screenshot0070fd1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I decided to have him build an Academy in Moscow and I'll build the Great Library there... with a couple most forest chops and additional hammers from mining the Iron, production should be good enough to get the Library completed.

Somebody somewhere built the Parthenon, and it wasn't one of my neighbors.

As I was exploring Alexander's territory, that's when the development occurred that started making me wonder if I should switch plans to raid Monty...

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/4255/civ4screenshot0073ej0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I was amazed that Judaism spread to Toku first... he still doesn't have open borders with Monty. Now I have to ask myself how long it will be before Toku starts warming up to Monty, but then becomes less than pleased with Alex. If that does happen, an early rush on Monty that doesn't result in me wiping Monty off right away means Toku is likely to start coming to Monty's cause.

Another situation is what Alex did in his attempt to grab Iron that was near my borders.

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/25/civ4screenshot0077wd7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

So now I've got a Greek city that's going to start competing with me for land and will start incurring the close borders penalty.

But here's something that's pretty interesting.

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/7413/civ4screenshot0076su2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Now, I know Alex has Iron in his borders and there's Copper he'll claim with a border pop... but he hasn't hooked up his Iron yet. He has Chariots, but that's it... and in Vanilla CIV, Chariots have no advantage over Axemen, making him an even more tempting target for an early Axeman rush.

Here's the map for the northern part of the continent.

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/6767/civ4screenshot0078ue4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

And here's the southern part.

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/7830/civ4screenshot0079mu2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

OK, now here is where I can really use some advice about the next step to take.

My Axemen army is ready to go and I'm starting to build Cats. I need to know whether the smart decision is to go after Monty first, as I planned, or target Alex instead. I can convert to either Hinduism or Judaism and a conversion to Judaism should be enough to eventually cancel out the penalty I got for turning down Monty's request that I convert.

One advantage to going after Alex is, because his cities are closer to me, I can keep at least one before sueing for peace. Monty's are further away, meaning even if he doesn't go sending a huge rush to take his cities back, it will be higher maintenance costs and longer to hook them up to roads. Not to mention that there's jungle between me and Monty, so his Jaguars will gain an advantage as troops make their way between our lands.

So what's it going to be... Monty first, as planned, or switch to Alex?

Saved game is attached.

Briefly updating some things: I teched to get Mathematics, then Construction, then Literature and am now pursuing Currency.

One of the developments was that I got my first Great Scientist in Moscow.

I decided to have him build an Academy in Moscow and I'll build the Great Library there... with a couple most forest chops and additional hammers from mining the Iron, production should be good enough to get the Library completed.

Hmm, maybe. I think you are still fighting the map, though. Moscow is small, and you don't have marble, and Moscow doesn't have particularly great production anyway, and if you are gearing up for a war, hadn't you better be using those hammers for units?

Something else to consider - 300AD is not an early start on the Library. Do you really thing you can bring it in against the civs on the other continent?

In terms of war, if you are only going to get one city, I'd want it to be Athens.

But I want to point out something here - your cities are in a world of hurt for size. It looks to me as though you have given no consideration to lifting your happiness limits. I'm guessing that you ought to have long ago noticed the general lack of ancient era happies in your neighborhood, and either (a) aim to get calendar into your research path earlier or (b) look to leveraging Hereditary Rule.

Edit: Spoilers for l8ter! srry ><
This is how i played it tho, all you pros might do better :cool:

Round Six: 300 AD to 820 AD

After having mulled things over for a bit, I decided the best strategy would be to make Alexander my friend as much as I could. The borders may have been a problem, but Monty is the most powerful civ on the continent and I didn't think I could trust him.

So, with that in mind, I continued along my tech path... first Currency, then Monarchy, then Civil Service, then I picked up Meditation as I could get it in one turn. I got some techs in trade, more on that later. When I finished this turn, I had my research set to get Machinery.

At any rate, since Monty was going to be my rival, I made a switch in my religion:

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/7230/civ4screenshot0091wu3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

And after getting Monarchy, I changed civics.

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/9439/civ4screenshot0089xy0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

As expected, Alexander remained cautious because of the close borders, but the shared religion will help counter that. Also, when Alex gets Monarchy and Hereditary Rule, that will also help win relations with him.

I did try to get Alex to swap Monarchy and some gold for Calendar, but he didn't bite. He was, however, willing to make another trade later.

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/418/civ4screenshot0095kp2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I decided it was best to part with Alphabet... it's getting to the point that the others will be heading in that direction, and I'm also hoping to win favors with him so that he may eventually come assist me against Monty.

Before I got Meditation, I got my next Great Scientist.

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/723/civ4screenshot0093vc5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

He would have given me Compass if I lightbulbed anything. Given that Compass isn't that expensive of a tech, I decided to have him settle in Moscow.

And then, I spotted Monty patrolling my border with a few units, and just as I suspected, Monty wanted to start trouble.

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/9629/civ4screenshot0096jz2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Of course, the way he started trouble was by attacking my super stack while it was on a jungle hill. The Jaguars and Axemen who attacked all fell to my Axemen, and then when he sent his Archers onto a grassland square, they were easy pickings. I'll bet that stupid grin got wiped off Monty's face quickly once he saw how badly the battles went.

My units are now pushing toward Texcoco and I noticed a Horse Archer in the jungle on my way. I checked combat odds, which weren't in the favor of my units, so I'm letting him come closer to my territory so he'll end up on flat lands and I can use a couple of Axemen to take him down. I'll be building Spearman as soon as possible.

I made another tech swap with Alex... I figured I needed to bite the bullet and get tech and gold from him, especially since it's obvious he's beelining to Machinery himself.

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/6189/civ4screenshot0098cz6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

And on my final turn, my gamble of delaying a certain Wonder paid off.

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/7929/civ4screenshot0099xs6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

As I said earlier, aggressive AI civs tend not to pursue Literature. Heck, somebody was more interested in building Chichen Itza than the Great Library.

Which thus brings the latest turn to a close. Things to consider at this juncture.

* Texcoco isn't that well defended... Monty has an Axeman, a Catapult, a Horse Archer and a promoted Archer for city defense in there, with 50 percent defense from culture and walls. My superstack is just inside his borders... I'm staying on jungles and jungle hills to get the defensive advantage. Would it be wise to split my superstack into two stacks to lure that Catapult out, then press toward the city, bombard and prepare to attack?
* What should come after Machinery? I'm debating on getting Horseback Riding as it wouldn't take too many turns. Music can probably wait as Military Tradition is still quite a ways away. Paper is also available and Engineering would also come in handy for Pikemen and increased road movement. In fact, I think Engineering would be the best pick.

Saved game is attached, thoughts are most welcome.

Hi Ratrangerm.

I've just discovered your thread detailing your early game with aggresive AI's.I enjoyed reading it as i had decided to play a similar game on Vanilla a few weeks ago.

I was fed up with games where the AI never seemed to attack me.So i started a game on Noble,standard fractal map with all the civs who have the aggressive trait.I choose to play as "Alexander the Great" just cos i had never played as him before , although he's not the greatest aggressive civ.After some exploration it seems i'm on a continent with Huayna Capac.

I'm still in the very early stages of my game because i've recently got Warlords, and wanted to check out the new features.

After reading the posts of your game so far i'm going to revisit my Alexander game this weekend to see how it checks out.I may have learned something from your game.

What to do with Huayna? Would you love him for a tech trading buddie,until you meet someone else, or just wipe him off the face of the earth now?

I'll look forward to reading your next posts.

Thanks for the feedback.

Honestly, as I continued from the point I left off, I realized that Monty had quite a few units, and although I was able to capture one of his cities and raze it, then pull my units back to regroup a bit, I then saw him keep approaching me with fairly good-sized stacks.

I'm having to stop to regroup a bit... it looks like I'm going to be in a bind, given that Monty took the war to me first.

That being said, this challenge _has_ proved useful, as I've learned a few pointers from several people (VoU in particular) about taking steps to play with the map presented rather than against it.

I don't know if I'll provide as many detailed posts as I have been, as I've been forgetting to take screenshots. We'll see what happens, but I think the mistakes I made early in the game are coming back to haunt me.

Anyway, as far as your question about Huayna goes, he can be a pretty good tech trading partner, but the thing to remember about him is that, of all the aggressive AI civs in Vanilla CIV, he tends to be the best at teching. So you want to exercise caution and don't trade too much tech to him.

What's happening now Ratrangerm?
We haven't heard anything for a few days,perhaps you're busy with real life!

Not certain if I'll get a chance to finish this or not. I'll certainly try, though.

Hopefully I'll have a chance to play another round tonight and get an update going soon.

EDIT TO UPDATE: Sadly to say, I'm afraid this one is over, given the direction that I went with my game play.

I was able to take one of Monty's cities, but of course, I had to raze it, lest I get bombarded by a ton of units. Then I had to pull back and repel a host of Monty's units that were determined to take my cities.

I was able to force him to a stalemate, essentially, and get him to agree to peace. I had been building a pretty solid relationship with Alex...

...until he then decided to stab me in the back with a surprise capture of one of my workers... and this was when I was trying to get my units regrouped.

I think it's pretty obvious that some of my early mistakes are coming back to haunt me such as:

* Placing St. Petersburg where I placed it. I should have moved it to a different spot where it would be adjacent to not just the Stone, but also a Sheep resource, and a border pop would have given me Deer and Iron, thus making for a more reliable production city.
* I really needed to adopt a state religion sooner than I did. I waited too long, and as a result, there was no way to assure I'd be on good terms with somebody early on. Had I adopted Hinduism sooner, Alex would have warmed up to me and become friendly, and then adding Hereditary Rule as a civic would have sealed it. But I did both too late, and Alex eventually saw me as somebody just in the way.
* I didn't chop forests as early as I should have, as VoU pointed out earlier in the thread. Getting that jump on expansion would have helped greatly.

Like I said, though, I don't consider this a failure or a waste. I can attest that you do learn from your bad games as well as your good ones. Since I started this challenge and then let it go for a while so I could regroup, I played a couple of offline games on Prince (not with all AI opponents aggressive, though) and did much better, getting a Space Race victory on one and a Diplomatic victory on another.

Although this particular challenge is one that didn't go well (thanks mostly to my mistakes), I am not going to give this up completely. I am currently getting another game underway with the same parameters and with Peter again as my leader, only this one is on a fractal map, which could make things a bit more unpredictable.

I will be getting a thread started on the new one soon. I'm going to go ahead and start off for a few turns myself, but will post the saved game from the start in case anyone wants to shadow Take Two of my challenge.

Thanks for the update,sorry this one didn't work out.

I'm going to read what's happening in round 2 now.Better luck this time around.