We have just met Piffle who sent us the following message:
It seems our we have found each other! How goes everything?

Team Piffle
... to which I replied the usual introductory stuff:
Greetings Piffle,

We are pleased to have met you finally. I hope we will be able to make some profitable trades for our mutual benefit.

I (Theoden) am the foreign minister of Innovia and you can contact me through the team email or through PM (I'll respond faster to a PM).

Do you have anyone in particular I should speak to or do you speak as a team?

Theoden,
Foreign minister of Innovia

Response from Piffle:
Hello Theoden,

The Piffles are pleased to meet your acquaintence. We are open to trading opportunities. Do you have any thoughts on how we should accomplish this? Should we consider a coordinated effort based on our current research? How should the other teams be involved?

A good start might be a 20 turn peace treaty? Renewable, of course.
When the time comes Open bordres could be considered as well.

Contact with most anyone on our team is fine but I can always be found here or IM.

Let us know your thoughts.

Whomp of the Piffles.

I feel we should be evasive. We have no need for a tech partnership, tech trades can be considered on a case by case basis. Besides they would already have discussed such a deal with Aloha and Epsilon, probably they just want to see if we'll tell them what we are researching.

Open Borders and a 20 turn peace are both meaningless, but friendly, so why not?

I responded to Piffle with this message:
Hi Whomp,

We'd be more than happy to sign a 20-turn peace treaty as a sign of friendship. And if you should drop by feel free to join the party in one of our cities. :)

Generally, we are open to all proposals, and I don't see why we couldn't sign an open borders agreement. That just means more trade for the both of us. :)

We can't commit to a coordinated tech effort at the moment, though, but we are more than willing to trade techs on a case by case basis. We see that you have construction and philosophy. Are you interested in trading away one of those?

Theoden of Innovia
Basically we've told them nothing, yet showed friendly intentions.

Piffle's response:
OK let's agree to peace for 20 turns renewable.
Open borders doesn't seem to benefit anyone yet so we can hold off till we see some economic benefit.

On techs let us know what you can offer on our techs.

Yours in peace.
Whomper of the Piffles
I don't know what we should say. Are there any trade deals we could be interested in making with them right now?

I offered Open Boarders to Piffle and want to send something to give them a heads up. Please review this and make any changes so we can hopefully send it before they get the turn.

Greetings Piffles,

The Innovian government would like to formalize the good relations we have enjoyed to date with an open boarder agreement. Free exchange of ambassadors and trade goods will serve to draw us closer together as our two nations grow in wealth and knowledge.

Although distant we are still neighbors,
Innovia

Not fast enough... Piffle sent us this message:
Hi Theoden,

The Piffles were curious if you'd be interested in discussing some tech and peace deals. We have some techs you'd probably be interested in and you have some we'd be interested in.

Let us know.
Regards,
Whomper of Piffle

We still have a peace deal; it hasn't been 20 turns yet.

If they agree that tech we trade to them can not be re-traded then we can consider some deals.

Monotheism (171) and Feudalism (1001) for Philosophy (1144)

Maybe Music (858) for Paper (858)

Then hopefully Philosophy to Aloha for Drama and Theology.

And open borders! :)

I like those trade suggestions. And it can't hurt asking them...

I offered OB again and really want to send a message before they get the turn this time. We should also send out trade offers before we use our next GP.

Greetings Piffles,

The Innovian government would like to formalize the good relations we have enjoyed to date with an open boarder agreement. The free exchange of ambassadors and trade goods will reflect the good will with which we hope to trade the latest developments of our researchers.

Although distant we are still neighbors,
Innovia

Sent the following:
Hi Whomp of the Piffles,

In addition to the open borders we offer you, we are willing to discuss the possiblities of tech deals. we propose ether or both of the following deals:

-Monotheism (171) and Feudalism (1001) for Philosophy (1144)
-Music (858) for Paper (858)

Regarding the peace deal we'd of course like to extend it. How about a 30 turn extension?

Theoden of Innovia

Sounds good. Posting to subscribe to the thread.

Response from Piffle:
Hi Theoden,
Sorry for the delay but it seems the beakers on your deal confused some people.

Would this deal work?
Philo/Theo for Feud/Music in a straight up even deal.

What do you think?

Regards,
Whomp of Piffle

Philo and Theo aren't the best techs in the world, are they?
Should we ask Aloha about this btw?

We had a much better deal with Epsilon anyway. This deal is nothing special, I'd rather keep shopping around. I'd also like to force them to accept Open Boarders as part of any tech deal.

Message form Piffle:
Hi Theoden,

We haven't been able to structure much in the way of any deals. Should we start with open borders?

Whomp of Piffle
I say why not? It can't hurt and we need to keep up relations.

They wouldn't give us OB when we had a guy on their border. Aloha walked right in but Piffle shut us out. Now they are on our border and want in, too late. Beside we are about to ship our army to war and I don't want anybody tipping off Loco.

Ah, I wasn't aware they were on our border right now. In that case, I don't think their offer is a sign of friendship... more like an attempt at one-sided deals.

I sent this polite, but very clear, response to Piffle:
Hi Whomp,

We've discussed your offer of OB. I and my team mates have decided that we must decline your proposal.

The reason is that we didn't get open borders when we were next to your territory, but now that you have a warrior at our borders you want to negotiate OB.

Please don't take this as an offence. In a multiplayer game, I don't think anyone in our position would have accepted your deal. And remember, we're still open to tech deals, resource trades etc. :)

Theoden of Innovia

Got a PM from killercane of Piffle:

Hi,

I know Theoden is Foreign Ambassador to Piffle but I never seem to catch him on. Can our teams have a pow wow soon to discuss the game and tech deals? If you are fully allied with Aloha we can do a 3 way talk. Let us know!

KC



The guy is in Tennessee so maybe it's a time zone problem.

Sorry KC but I'm on vacation for a few weeks so can't really do it. I asked Theo to get in touch and I'm sure he'll find some time that works out or find someone else who can.

Looking forward to it.
1889 of Innovia

Chat with Killercane of Piffle (warning, very long):
casey j says:
Theoden!
Mikkel says:
hi, killercane
casey j says:
hows it going?
Mikkel says:
excellent, how about you?
casey j says:
same here, just winding down the day
Mikkel says:
how are things going in the land of Piffle?

You have just sent a Nudge!

casey j says:
pretty good
casey j says:
sorry
casey j says:
had a phone call
Mikkel says:
ok, no problem
casey j says:
how about Innovia land, we noticed the troop buildup
Mikkel says:
troop buildup? (damn, you noticed it...) well, our ecnomy is doing well and we are strengthening our position well
casey j says:
so how do you see the game playing out? Epsilon is urging us to be partners, but we know where that will lead
casey j says:
so we need some diplomatic inroads with you guys
casey j says:
which are long overdue
Mikkel says:
we've actualy been wondering how close you've been working with epsilon seeing as you have had some tech deals etc..
Mikkel says:
but i understand why youd like to team up *against* epsilon instead
casey j says:
yes tech deals for sure. our position is difficult. Epsilon is our closest neighbor, and gnp leader. if we pair with them we would be locked into a spacerace or late war, and with their headstart it is difficult to see us beating them.
casey j says:
are you and aloha allied in that respect? Loco seems to be a bit backward
Mikkel says:
not really allied but working very closely... neither of us have managed to get much constructive deals out of loco
Mikkel says:
do you know if loco has any luck in diplo at all? with epsilon?
casey j says:
well per epsilon no not really. i know epsilon sold some tech for cash, and we are pretty sure it was to loco, so epsilon might be being coy
Mikkel says:
im just wondering if it could turn out a 3vs2 with epsilon-loco against the rest..
casey j says:
i dont know. we just dont want it to be 2v2vPiffle!
Mikkel says:
understandable
casey j says:
diplo is more important in Civ 4 MP. more important than gameplay IMO, as unit #s are so restricted
casey j says:
dogpiles are too powerful
Mikkel says:
judging from the pitboss game at least, i think youre right
casey j says:
so what are our options on tech deals, peace, and possible alliances?
casey j says:
and information exchange
Mikkel says:
regarding peace deals, it shouldn't complicated... we can just agree not to attack each other for x number of turns
Mikkel says:
tech deals: we can discuss what we're going to reseach next, research different techs and then trade, just as we do with Aloha at times
Mikkel says:
alliances: dogpile against epsilon, but it'll take a while before we'll be close enough to Epsilon to have any significance in a war
casey j says:
have you thought about going after loco? if we werent so far from them we would think heavily about doing it
Mikkel says:
well, actually the though has crossed our mind, and the troop buildup isn't for nothing
casey j says:
heh. pretty understandable
casey j says:
what if epsilon attacks Aloha?
casey j says:
or we do? we are on so so terms with them
Mikkel says:
well, then we'd have to kill you (j/k)
Mikkel says:
i'm not really sure, actually...
Mikkel says:
but is epsilon close enough to Aloha to do serious damage?
casey j says:
yes just a few galleon moves, hard to say without accurate maps
Mikkel says:
scary... well i suppose that they will try to conquer anyone with whom they don't get profitalbe deals
Mikkel says:
so basically we have to make the first move and decide the place of the fighting
casey j says:
yes the only problem is epsilon is making ~180 beakers/turn
casey j says:
so they will be to infantry in no time
Mikkel says:
but if we can work together three teams about techs we should be able to surpass them, coorperatoin is the key here
casey j says:
yep
casey j says:
what about tech? what are you guys working on?
Mikkel says:
guilds i think, if we haven't finsihed it... two words: camel archers
casey j says:
yes the kings of a no iron map
casey j says:
though i think there has been some iron sighted
Mikkel says:
there has.. i think most/everyone has iron
casey j says:
are you guys going for banking and those techs post guilds?
casey j says:
we have traded Printing Press for Education with Epsilon
Mikkel says:
not sure, that is to be discussed
Mikkel says:
what are you going for?
casey j says:
liberalism
Mikkel says:
and which free tech?
casey j says:
we do not know. this kind of all hinges together with you guys and Epsilon. They have proposed multiple deals
casey j says:
and we have been "thinking about it"
casey j says:
so we need feedback from you guys
Mikkel says:
actually we've just (minute ago) finished guilds... hbr is next
Mikkel says:
assuming that we'll whack loco thoroughly... what would then be needed to face epsilon
casey j says:
depends on the turns. if you guys are going after them soon, then a turnaround pre-rifles/grenadiers MAY be possible
casey j says:
Do you have a defensive pact with Aloha?
Mikkel says:
nope
casey j says:
Ok. the way I see it, Piffle has 2 options for expansion- settle the rest of the land available, which is quite some, or attack Aloha, who is really our only possible war target.
casey j says:
Epsilon has proposed working together to get free Mil Tradition via Liberalism
Mikkel says:
but that would leave you without any allies, and most likely epsilon would win the game....
casey j says:
exactly
Mikkel says:
but i have to go eat now.. can we continue later?
casey j says:
sure.
casey j says:
look me up in a few hours
Mikkel says:
ok, see you later
casey j says:
see ya theoden
Mikkel says:
Hi again!
casey j says:
hey T
casey j says:
what was for dinner
Mikkel says:
i don't know the english word actually, but it was good
casey j says:
ha
Mikkel says:
where were we before?
casey j says:
err
casey j says:
casey j said:
Ok. the way I see it, Piffle has 2 options for expansion- settle the rest of the land available, which is quite some, or attack Aloha, who is really our only possible war target.
casey j said:
Epsilon has proposed working together to get free Mil Tradition via Liberalism
Mikkel said:
but that would leave you without any allies, and most likely epsilon would win the game....
casey j
Mikkel says:
ah, yes the alliances... so you've reasoned that Epsilon is a bad ally
Mikkel says:
so it would be something like a three way tech coorperation and alliance against epsilon if Aloha agrees as well
casey j says:
well not bad, but the only way to beat them if we team with them is a backstab, and we are pretty against backstabbing anyone even if we might lose
Mikkel says:
fair enough
Mikkel says:
should we discuss the specifics or speak with Aloha first?
casey j says:
i have some more info as well, none of this will reach Aloha ears I take it unless we decide to include them?
Mikkel says:
yes, on the innovian honour
casey j says:
k
casey j says:
this really doesnt involve them, more you guys
casey j says:
epsilon is gearing to attack loco as well
Mikkel says:
but they are far away, right?
casey j says:
i dont know about that side of the world. i know they plan on using galleons
casey j says:
are you close to circumnav bonus?
Mikkel says:
dunno, i don't tihnk we're going after it
Mikkel says:
we are using galleons as well
Mikkel says:
but if epsilons armies are abroad wouldn't that be an opportunity to attack them?
casey j says:
i dont think circumnav is that big but some on my team refuse to trade maps until it is won
casey j says:
yes, unfortunately our old peace deal is until 1250 ad. we signed this around 0 ad. so we cannot attack them until then
Mikkel says:
deja vu from civ3 mdtg...
casey j says:
ha yes i know
Mikkel says:
do you think epsilon would turn agressive over the spoils of war after eliminating loco?
casey j says:
what do you mean
casey j says:
attack you while you were both there in locoland?
Mikkel says:
yes, to get most of locos territory
casey j says:
i really dont know
Mikkel says:
but i suppose we could negotiate a parting of loco with them
casey j says:
yes you could probably handle that diplomatically
casey j says:
epsilons pants will be down while they are over there
Mikkel says:
maybe aloha could attack them then... the possibilities are many
Mikkel says:
but you say you have no way of screwing epsilon...?
casey j says:
i kind of thought about that. its kind of too far for you guys but not aloha
casey j says:
well, attack at 1260 ad is the best way
casey j says:

casey j says:
there are roughly 8,497,967,432 ideas being discussed
Mikkel says:
lol
Mikkel says:
but we are kinda too far away to face epsilon other than in locoland
Mikkel says:
but just taking loco before epsilon would be a huge advantage i reckon
casey j says:
yes, more land is much better
casey j says:
how to get aloha to attack epsilon though?
Mikkel says:
don't know.... it would be hard... how would you feel if someone proposed that you attacked a big bully who would bend you over in a matter of seconds
Mikkel says:
it would have to be the both of you i think
casey j says:
yes that would make the most sense
casey j says:
but our having to wait hurts
casey j says:
how does this plan sound
Mikkel says:
how many turns are there until 1260ad?
casey j says:
we attack aloha, and you pledge not to get involved (no unit gifting and such), you guys take as much loco land as possible, and then we (piffle) attack epsilon perhaps with units gifted from you via locoland
casey j says:
that plan is kind of out of my ass but could be worth discussing
casey j says:
let me look in the editor
Mikkel says:
backstabbing bigtime... a rather radical plan... doomed to fail... i like it (j/k)
Mikkel says:
actually, i won't directly refuse it as any other plan, but i doubt my team would agree to it
casey j says:
which part
Mikkel says:
the screwing aloha part
Mikkel says:
but since you'll do the dirty work, i think there is a chance of it being possible
casey j says:
we dont have any current deals with aloha. are you bound to gift them units in war?
casey j says:
or help them out in some way?
Mikkel says:
no, it's not that we would be breaking our word
casey j says:
we are at 20 years/turn until 1000 ad, and then 10 turn increments.
casey j says:
what year are we at?
Mikkel says:
just that we say godbye to our trading partner
casey j says:
what is aloha set to provide?
Mikkel says:
700ad
casey j says:
so we are 40 turns from 1250 ad
Mikkel says:
techs, maps, military help
Mikkel says:
that should be enough to mobilize thoroughly
Mikkel says:
but i catch your drift... you want to be our new and only trading partner, replacing aloha for us?
casey j says:
yes
casey j says:
it is one possible plan
Mikkel says:
well, i'll propose it to the team
casey j says:
what tech route is aloha taking?
Mikkel says:
can't remember, but i don't think they intended to tell it to anyone else
casey j says:
right, well the only other tech path if you are following lower branch is edu and engineering things
Mikkel says:
yes
casey j says:
we have PP and Education. Liberalism will take a few turns, and leaves Mil Trad and Astro out there
Mikkel says:
mil trad would be very good to have soon
Mikkel says:
and astronomy is a killer for stealth naval invasions
casey j says:
our other option is 3 way attack on epsilon at 1260 AD. you want to propose that plan too?
Mikkel says:
sure
casey j says:
the only thing i can think of to hold us back on that, is that you have had a good relation with Aloha for some time, and we would have to work out some equitable dividing of their lands, along with a peace period afterwards
casey j says:
so that we dont end up short on that.
casey j says:
diplo is so open ended!
Mikkel says:
but our problem is that epsilon cities would cost us fortunes in maintenance, but OTOH w don't don't want you and Aloha to have it all
casey j says:
right. how would we work that out?
Mikkel says:
dunno, that's the problem... and what would happen afterwards? it would most likely be a 2vs1
casey j says:
yes. if either we or aloha got most of epsilon, that team would be production/gnp leaders
casey j says:
and would be the targeted person
Mikkel says:
considering this trouble i feel more inclined towards the previous proposal....
casey j says:
in that respect, maybe we should whittle it down to two teams
casey j says:
as that will be trouble
casey j says:
yep
casey j says:
lots to think about
casey j says:
if we did first proposal, we could share techs fully, so that if one is ahead when we are the only two left, we could both start on even starts
casey j says:
for spacerace or late domination
Mikkel says:
but if there's two teams left and one is ahead in tech that team would have to be exttremely honest to not just run away with the game
casey j says:
yes, it would have to be a gentleman's agreement.
casey j says:
it would not be fun to run away with it at that point IMO, more interesting to race to a spaceship with an even foe while balancing the "will they attack?" factor
Mikkel says:
of course, just saying that the temptatoin will be there
casey j says:
i mean, its kind of thinking far ahead, but really the industrial age is around the corner
Mikkel says:
the tech race is quite fast actually... or am I just slow?
casey j says:
its pretty fast. Normal speed +aggressive trading is what it is
Mikkel says:
yes, its the human vs human thats doing it i reckon
Mikkel says:
should we perhaps propose things to our teams and have it discussed, then have a talk once we have some team opinions to work with
casey j says:
sounds good. how do you guys plan on getting astro within enough turns?
casey j says:
we have a scientist popping for it, but 2 scientists (traded) will get it quicker
Mikkel says:
we haven't planned actually
Mikkel says:
we're able to reach loco fine with galleys
casey j says:
ah
casey j says:
well lets ask our teams, and pledge not to give any intel to the others, and maybe we can work a deal out.
casey j says:
tech will be interesting
Mikkel says:
it will surely be interesting
casey j says:
maybe we can trade PP and Edu for Guilds/Banking
casey j says:
i dont know what the tech costs are off hand
casey j says:
but something to think about
Mikkel says:
ill propose it just as anything else
casey j says:
alright, well let us know!
casey j says:
good talking to you Theoden
Mikkel says:
a pleasure on my side as well

An important piece of information we got is that Epsilon is planning to attack Loco!

Some of the possibilities discussed:
- turning against Aloha, piffle taking epsilon and we take loco, then hopefully only us and piffle left
- us/piffle/aloha vs epsilon and splitting the lands etc. between the three of us, (would mean loco would be free to conquer for us)
- various tech deals, they're in the log :p

Well that's a lot to consider. The most worrisome part to me is that galleons that can attack Loco can attack us quite easily too and will also sweep our galleys from the sea. We are going to need some navy techs.

Interesting. I'll need a bit of time to think about this. Do Epsilon know we're also planning on attacking Loco?

There seems to be some confusion about how the world looks. I'll give you a overview of the world. Our western warrior has seen Epsilon borders recently.

So it seems they want to make a plan for the rest of the game, but I think it’s too early to decide. Especially since they can’t attack Epsilon until 1260 AD (about 40 more turns).

I’d suggest we let them know that we would be very unhappy if they attack Aloha so maybe the best plan is fore them to keep expanding.

I trust you to work out the tech deals but I’d love to have Astronomy, for the galleons and the trade routes.

One thing I’d like to verify: He said that Epsilon is planning on sailing to Loco in Galleons, but I don’t think they have Astronomy yet, so did he mean galleys or are they planning to wait for that tech?

Dutchfire,

Thank you for the offer. However, we would be more interested in happiness resources if you have any of those to spare. Do you? And what of our other proposals with Theoden? We really need a response from you guys soon, or we will assume it is a "No." Have a good one!

KC

So, what should we do?

That was a long chat so maybe we should ask them to reiterate the precise question they want answered. Here is a suggestion incase Theoden is not able to post anything. P.S. I don't have a spell checker right now.


We are happy to trade techs and resources as a means to improving our relations. When it comes time to finally face Epsilon, a history of trust and cooperation will be a necessary prerequisite for the type of military alliance you suggest.

We are happy to trade techs and resources as a means to improving(improve) our relations. When it comes is time to finally face Epsilon, a history of trust and cooperation will be a necessary prerequisite for the type of military alliance you suggest.

Spellchecking by a not native speaker

I'd say that we don't have any other excess resources than clam (that's correct isn't it?). Therefor that's the only reasonable trade we can do.

Dosen't anybody need our silks?

To Killercane:

Killercane,

Sorry for our late response, but with Theoden on holiday, our foreign department is having some problems (basically it has stopped existing :p).

First, about the resource trade, we've got silk to spare, so we could trade for that. However, fish for silk wouldn't be a very fair deal in our opinion. We value happiness over health. But if you could throw a bit more, then I'm pretty sure we could agree on it.

Second, is your team interested in doing some sort of technology trade? We would be very interested in Printing Press. I believe that we're up Guilds, Feudalism (?) and Horsebackriding on you. Of course, this tech deal would include that we won't trade printing press with any other team, and you won't trade our techs to any other team.

Third, about the long term, our fear mostly lies with Epsilon. They've just closed borders with us, and if they attempt to attack Loco, they'll get very close to our lands. Therefor we're very happy to cooperate with you by making trades so we'll both stand stronger against Epsilon. A total military alliance is an option, but we'd like to think that option through longer because it's a very big move to make.

Looking forward to hearing from you,
Dutchfire

No reply sofar,
Theoden, could you offer them clams for fish again? And perhaps Horsebackriding for Compass (though that deal is in our advantage).

I think we should offer open border to Piffle. It may give us an extreamly valuable trade route to Aloha but it will also help improve relations with them, a neccesary first step in prying them away from Epsilon. The only down side is that they get to strole through our lands, but Epsilon has already seen most of the good stuff anyway.

Silence from Piffle doesn't sound too good...

Plan B is to kill that warrior. We can do it from the sea, they'd never know what hit them.

I've now sent a message saying we would like to have open borders with them. We should probably offer it in-game as well next turn.

OK, so no votes to kill their warrior then? ;)

OK, so no votes to kill their warrior then? ;)
Nah, I don't feel like creating international incidents at the moment. ;)

The OB agreement has expired. We can cancel at any time. I sugest we tell them that our scout was killed before he got back to their territory so since it does us no good we are cancelling. (This should put their warrior in a distanc sector where he can not sit on a hill and spy.) Another option is to play nice and let them pay to stay.

Don't you think this would create unneccesary diplomatic tensions at a time where we need to be on good terms with every other than Loco? And aren't we depending on that OB to have a route to Aloha?

Perhaps, but I don’t think OB by themselves improves relations in any significant way; the only way to make inroads is by making plans together.

Our team doesn’t look so hot right now to anybody familiar with the demographics data (although hopefully things will start to improve when we capture some cities). Anyway right now Piffle may feel that their only competition is Epsilon so there could be a chance of starting trouble between them.

Renewing the OB could be an excuse to chat, let’s see if we can get something for it. Maybe hint that we are on hard times as a result of the war and could be persuaded to join Piffle against Epsilon if they were to make a move.

Kind of a vague plan for such a dangerous game, does anyone think it has a chance?

I severely doubt it. All that Piffle would probably do would be to extract as much information as possible from us, play friends for a while, and then attack us with Epsilon at their side. I really, really doubt that we can realistically turn those two teams on each other at this stage of the game. Sure, they might pretend to be interested in our offer of war with Epsilon, but the chance of them going through with anything is beyond slim. Still, go ahead if you like. :)

Well do you think Piffle has long ago just decided to surrender the game to Epsilon or what? If they have a chance I think they would take it. They may not think this little scheme of ours is credible but I'm sure they would rather win if given a decent chance.

P.S. I just remembered that the Piffle-Epsilon peace treaty expires in 1250 AD, just about the time we are putting the cabash on Loco's last city. Could that be just coincidence?

Well do you think Piffle has long ago just decided to surrender the game to Epsilon or what? If they have a chance I think they would take it. They may not think this little scheme of ours is credible but I'm sure they would rather win if given a decent chance.Well, give it a shot if you reckon it can be made to work. :)

Here is a proposed (and unsent) email to get the ball rolling. I was hopping that Theo or Dutch could handle the chat though.

Dear Piffle,

The Open Boarder agreement between us has expired and since our man never made it back to explore your lands we see little value in extending it, although we are willing to do so if you could see fit to compensate us with a small tax.

We were unable to find much common ground in our last chat but the strategic situation has changed a great deal since then and now present numerous opportunities that we would like to explore with you.

We would like to arrange a chat to discus these important developments.

Team Innovia

Looks good, except that I don't think the word 'tax' is the best... just say that we want some compensation and that we can discuss it in the chat. This also prevents them from turning down the idea immediately.

I can handle the chat, but you'll have to elaborate a bit on those 'numerous opportunities that we would like to explore with them'. :)

I could chat, if needed.
Killercane chats for them, right? What's his email-addy?

Here are the items on my mind right now:

We will have another sugar resource available for trade soon. Also our silk for fish trade is about to expire. Our resources are clam (3) Marble (1) sheep (1) Incense (1), It will be a while before we can reliably use capture resources. They have 1 each of horse, corn, crab, wheat, gold, and wine.

After Astro a good tech path for us might be engineering (6turns). Pikes are reasonable defense against cavalry plus extra road movement will be helpful and it opens chemistry (grenadiers, frigates). Don’t know what Piffles tech plans are but would that be tradable?

Most importantly we can tell them that our war has not worked out. Victory is assured but by the time it’s over we may have missed our shot at the win. (I don’t really believe this is true, but I want them to feel that we no longer feel we have a chance at the win, so that they may feel like taking us on as a junior partner.) We expect to finish Loco around the same time that their peace treaty with Epsilon expires. We are unsure what to do with the large numbers of experienced troops we will have left over and wonder if they have considered how or when they might make their break for the win.

Sounds good. By the way, it's "Open Borders" if you haven't already sent the email note. :)

Email fixed and sent.

No response huh?

Well, he tried to contact me but I was away and discovered it too late to respond. I then wited for him to come online during the weekend and until now, but no luck...

Along with the save we got this nice note:
Greetings, Team Innovia!

When you receive the save, you will undoubtably notice that I have
cancelled our open borders agreement. I should apologize for the
delay in doing this, as my actions at this point have trapped your
units behind our borders.

We want the Innovians to know that this is not a sign of aggression.
And that we have no hostile intentions towards Innovia. The reason
that we did this is our on-going war with Aloha. From our
perspective, it seems that Aloha and Innovia have become rather cozy
allies. As you can imagine, we would rather that a map of our cities
and territory NOT make it into the hands of our mortal enemies.

On another note, we notice that Innovia has a spare sugar resource
that is not connected. We have some spare wine. Please let us know
if you might be interested in doing a trade along these or similar
lines.

Sincerely,
Conroe

Team Piffle


No suprise there. Shall we try and get some map trades with Loco and Aloha?

Message from Piffle:
Dear Team Innovia,

We are concerned how things have deveoped. Recently you cancelled our silks deal but continue to scout our territory with your camel archer. We would suggest either renewing the deal or we would respectfully ask you to remove your camel archer.

Please advise how you'd like to proceed.

Regards,
The Pifflenatress
Seems our camel archer's exploration adventure is over...

They had a nice look around Innovia then cancelled open borders right when we showed up. I think they owe our ambassador a little better hospitality.

Or something to that affect.

Or something to this effect:
Dear Pifflenatressonians,

You’ve been very vocal on the point of sour relations between our nations, but very uncooperative on any point that might strengthen our ties.

Millennia ago you refused entry to our scout while Aloha’s warrior marched in right ahead of us, you refused tech trades, and then stopped responding to our diplo all together.

We offered you open borders to get relations back on track. Your warrior dined on Ploughland’s finest take-out at discounted rates, he enjoyed the best that Glassport Community Theater had to offer and even got wine and cheese at the after party, he enjoyed the pleasures of Polynesia’s red-light district on clean sheets. But or explorer is eating bugs and snakes in the wilderness, literally whistling Dixie to himself and hasn’t seen a sheep since he left Port Tropicana!

Relations between our two nations need never have deteriorated to this point, now you suggest they can only get worse. We feel instead this is an opportunity to grow stronger together.

Thank you,
Team Innovia

I agree that it's about time we go straigth to the problem and tell them clearly that we don't feell very well treated by their foreign department.

Fix the typo (should be "our explorer") and the message looks good to me.

fixed and sent.

Clearly, they deserve a good spanking, and that spanking should be very soon.

I also asked for a chat. Hopefully Dutch or Theo can get some info out of themabout how they intend to win without upsetting Epsilon. Innovia could tip the scales in such a situation.

THey say,

Btw that's my MSN IM address

On 8/18/07, Team Piffle <teampiffle@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Innovians,

You can reach me at bawhomp@yahoo.com for discussions.
In the meantime, we're going to ask to renew our silks deal ingame.
Whomper

I'd like to talk to them before we renew the silk deal.

To be sent to Piffle just as they recieve the save:
Dear Piffle,

I can see from your offer that like Innovia you expect generosity in your trading partners. It is an indication of how useful we could be to each other. However in Innovia friendship must come first. Your extra wine for our last silk and no open border has not yet been accepted. Perhaps we can clear some things up in our chat.

Until then,
1889 (also my MSM ID) and Team Innovia

Chat with Piffle involving me, 1889, Lord Parkin, Killercane and Whomp.
1889 says:
Parkin and Theo are about also. I sent invites.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
hi there...
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
got it this time
1889 says:
Wow I actually did it!
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
well done...
1889 says:
Uh...Whomp is busy right now.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
okay, no problem
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
offline, it appears...
Mikkel says:
Hi..
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
hi there
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
how's life?
Mikkel says:
that's a complicated question as usual I guess
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
heh
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
that's good, I hope...
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
things are generally fine in my neck of the woods
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
busy, but fine...
1889 says:
Complications are never good.
Mikkel says:
where is your neck of the woods actually?
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
I'd disagree there, 1889... some can be good.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
New Zealand
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Christchurch, specifically...
Mikkel says:
life would be boring without complications
Whomp says:
Gentlemen
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
indeed. complications involving females can be particularly interesting.
1889 says:
Life would be boring without excitment, not the same as complications.
Whomp says:
Had to attend to honey do's
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
good evening, whomp...
1889 says:
Hi Whomp.
Mikkel says:
hi whomp
Whomp says:
How is everyone?

John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
fairly fine...
Whomp says:
Lord P my sister moved to Wellington recently
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Ah, ok... that's cool. I'll be visiting Wellington the weekend after this one, actually.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
(University holidays for the next 2 weeks, starting tomorrow.)
Whomp says:
Very nice
Whomp says:
She really likes living there
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Yep, it's a nice place.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Where's home for you by the way?
Whomp says:
Chicago
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
ah, right
Whomp says:
She met her husband in New York
Whomp says:
he worked for NZ econ. development
Whomp says:
I did a haka for at their wedding reception
1889 says:
Small world huh? Just like the MTDG.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
cool..
Whomp says:
So true
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
yep...
Whomp says:
So to b'ness
1889 says:
(1889 displays his poor conversational skills.)
Whomp says:
Hehe
Whomp says:
Can I bring in Killercane?
1889 says:
Of course.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
go ahead...
Mikkel says:
sure

Whomp was added to this conversation. Handwriting is no longer supported because not all participants can view handwritten messages. Handwritten messages will be sent as text.

Whomp says:
Hi Case
Casey says:
whats going on
1889 says:
Hello Kane.
Whomp says:
I have the bright minds of Innovia here
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
heh
Casey says:
they of the sneaky camel archer
1889 says:
First off, Innovia was unable to accept Piffle's trade deal as offered.
Whomp says:

Whomp says:
ok
Whomp says:
So where do we stand
Whomp says:
the lines seem to be drawn
1889 says:
Not at all. I explained a bit in my email response.
1889 says:
We clearly have much that can benefit eachother and little to gain from propegating poor relations.
1889 says:
Do either of you disagree?
Whomp says:
We're a bit concerned how the discussion of walking through your lands went. If I recall our warrior blocked Magadan from a barb
1889 says:
Sorry Whomp I'm not sure what you mean.
Casey says:
nope. i suggested we work together some time ago with mikkel, and nothing came of that.
Casey says:
but we are all ears
1889 says:
Casey, I looked over that chat a few days ago.
1889 says:
Lots of sugestioins but few concrete plans.
1889 says:
The only real sugestion was that we abandon Aloha and trade exclusivly with Piffle.
Mikkel says:
as i remember it that chat seemed to open up possibilities, it was just that the time wasn't right for any concrete deals
1889 says:
It was rather one sided and never explained what benefit it would provide Innovia.
Casey says:
there was no follow up on your part. the benefits were techs to you IIRC.
1889 says:
At the time of that chat you still had a number of turns of a peace treatty with Epsilon, so options were limited.
Casey says:
but thats a long time ago anyways, we can always start fresh. hell i cant remember that far back . epsilon is the one we must both overcome
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
I find that surprising coming from piffle...
Mikkel says:
well, the team declined the kind of coorperation that you were suggesting back then, that's why nothing happened.... doens't mean that we don't have new options now
1889 says:
Yes, did you have some plan to distance yourselves from Epsilon?
Whomp says:
It's obvious they're the runaway here
1889 says:
We keep seeing the tech deals and are wondering why?
Whomp says:
As we see techs and military
Whomp says:
We've been backed into a corner with no other trading partners, no?

Mikkel says:
but don't you think trading with Epsilons fuels their lead?
Casey says:
who are we going to trade with, loco?
1889 says:
Why not end the war with Aloha? I havn't herd much action on that continent for a few centuries.
Casey says:
of course it fuels their lead, which is why we want/wanted to become trading partners with you guys.
Mikkel says:
well, the reason you're meeting reluctancy among others to trade with you is because you trade with epsilon...
Whomp says:
Aloha won't accept terms
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
and what are the terms?
Whomp says:
They asked for something ridiculous
Casey says:
BCLG says there will be no peace, they cannot win so they are just going to bog us down
Whomp says:
Case do you remember?
Casey says:
they want settlers or something to repopulate their little neck of the woods
Casey says:
i dont think we will be paying THEM
Whomp says:
right
Whomp says:
two settlers and gold or tech...
Mikkel says:
that's certainly understandable that you won't accept
Whomp says:
that's not happening
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
still, also understandable that Aloha would want a little compensation...
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
they've been rather taken to the woodshed after all...
Whomp says:
No doubt
1889 says:
War weariness not a proiblem for you at all? I understand not wanting to pay the loosers, but it can be worth the cost.
Mikkel says:
yes, but they aren't really in a position to demand much unless WW is bad for Piffle?
Whomp says:
They haven't hit us
1889 says:
Working out peace with Loco has ben quite beneficial.
Casey says:
what did you get out of that deal
Casey says:
and why did you nix the pyramids?
Mikkel says:
nothing, straight up peace IIRC
Whomp says:
that won't happen with aloha
Casey says:
well you guys could declare on aloha if deals permit, that would go a long way towards us working together
Whomp says:
especially with the military you're giving them
Whomp says:
it would shock the world in their backdoor
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Here's the thing. From my point of view, if you guys are actually serious about wanting to take down Epsilon and not just saying that for the sake of saying it or misinforming us, then we actually all need to work together. ALL of us - the whole four other nations. From my analysis of the demographics, that's the only way we'd stand a chance.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
So if you're serious, then peace with Aloha is the only option. Asking us to declare war on Aloha sounds plain stupid to me, from Innovia's perspective.
Mikkel says:
completely agree with lord parkin there
Whomp says:
As I said it seems lines have been drawn already
1889 says:
Loco and Aloha still produce science. They can get techs for us, even if it is rather slow.
Mikkel says:
besides, we are not exactly in a positoin to declare on aloha with a clean reputation at the moment
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
We're not the ones drawing most of the lines though...
Whomp says:
We won't give settlers to Aloha
Casey says:
because we wont make peace with people who have vowed war forever? Do you want to supply settlers and the gold for us to make peace with Aloha??
Mikkel says:
no, but we could try to convince them otherwise
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
That's not what I said... I'm sure alternative arrangements could be negotiated.
Whomp says:
That would be a start
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
The important thing is the peace, how it is achieved is secondary.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
But we could try to help out there.
Mikkel says:
I'm sure aloha would listen to reason for the greater good of annoying epsilon..
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
(If you were serious about starting to move against Epsilon.)
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Indeed.
1889 says:
brb
Mikkel says:
or... we can choose to watch while epsilon crushes Loco and becomes even stronger
Casey says:
Mikkel says:
I'm sure aloha would listen to reason for the greater good of annoying epsilon..
Casey says:
i posed that to them, and they dislike us more, according to them.
Casey says:
so you guys have some work to do to make peace
Casey says:
interesting international negotiations we have going here
Mikkel says:
i didn't expect them to hate you more, honestly
Mikkel says:
that means we have to convince them a LOT
Whomp says:
Well we've destroyed them economically and coastal
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
I'm not too surprised. But I suspect that they would probably be more inclined to listen to Innovia (who have been friends for many years) as opposed to the nation who is currently taking them to the park.
1889 says:
My wife thinks she's pregnant.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Perhaps, but they can always recover given time. And in any event, a war against Epsilon would be stronger with a little bit of extra help than without.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Wow, really?
1889 says:
Well, when a man and a woman are in love...
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Heh. Congratulations, then.
Whomp says:
Nice 1889!!
Casey says:
congrats if true!
Mikkel says:
good news for you indeed!
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
brb
1889 says:
The war with Aloha is a matter for Piffle and Aloha. We have made our sugestioins and will do what we can to help, but peace there is not the game breaker.
Whomp says:
Is it not for Innovia?
Whomp says:
If we align with Epsilon how do you contend with that?
Whomp says:
Two strong economies vs. 1
Whomp says:
and 1 likely to disappear soon
Mikkel says:
why would you do that... epsilon will surely win
Whomp says:
We realize our fate
1889 says:
If they are truly intransigent on the peace araingment we can leave them to their own devices with a clean consiuns[sic]
Mikkel says:
but surely in a loco-innovia-piffle vs epsilon war you would have a good chance of getting the spoils
Whomp says:
We'd need peace with Aloha for that to work
Whomp says:
we're not going to be left on a tech island by ourselves
1889 says:
I thought war with Aloha was not causing you any harm?
Whomp says:
It's not but why start two fronts?
Mikkel says:
because it neccesary? and besides aloha shouldn't be a danger to you any time soon
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
I guess we could try to do what we can to arrange peace with Aloha.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
If you would join against Epsilon, you would surely not be left on a 'tech island' as you say.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
I would think that mutual technology trading would be an obvious part of such an alliance.
Mikkel says:
off course we'll do what we can to help with the peace through our relations with them... just don't expect us to declare war on them
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Indeed, agreed.
Whomp says:
that's fair
Whomp says:
We'd need to know soon
1889 says:
Aside from that issue how are your current plans working? How are you going to get out of your tech alliance with Epsilon?
Whomp says:
That's why we'd need to know soon
1889 says:
Why are you about to renew some long term deal?
Whomp says:
We're in negotiations
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Yes, but that doesn't answer the question. Is there a way for you to realistically get out of whatever arrangements with Epsilon you might have (technological, military etc)?
Casey says:
we have some plans. we have been trying to determine how to beat them for 2000 years so we were bound to come up with some good options.
Casey says:
but it will be easier with an ally.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
or three.
1889 says:
So how long do we have? How long have you already stalled ? how much longer can you stall/
Mikkel says:
so if we could convince you that there would be two or three allies ready you could be able to stop trading with epsilon soon?
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
And moreover, cut off all ties with them?
Whomp says:
That would go over big with Piffle
1889 says:
Loco is already at war with Epsilon, no problem allying with them. and their economy is still in good shape Aloha is insignificant as an ally.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Perhaps, but still better to have them at least neutral than as an enemy... if we're going against Epsilon we don't need any extra problems.
Mikkel says:
yeah, worst case scenario is that they'll cut us off as well for coorperating with the "enemy"
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
I don't think they'd do that, unless they're hell-bent on suicide as a nation...
Mikkel says:
not an impossibility given their current politics...
Casey says:
But it has to be a realistic proposal. We would be giving up Aloha land, commerce, and production by forgoing war. If Loco holds out better than Aloha, we have a leg up on Epsilon. How would we be compensated for that in a peace arrangement?
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
You mean with Aloha?
1889 says:
What are you giving up by forgoing war with Aloha?
Mikkel says:
cities...
Mikkel says:
though im not sure more cities would make any positive return for you economically at the moment
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Why the need for compensation? The threat of Epsilon is growing, and if we don't do something about it soon then they may well run away with the game. By going to war in a world alliance, it is likely that Piffle will be the strongest nation once Epsilon has been taken down. Isn't that quite an incentive in itself?
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
No, Aloha can do better with the cities than Piffle can.
Mikkel says:
and again... we're not requiring you to make peace with Aloha, we're just asking you to join against epsilon
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
exactly
Casey says:
Well thats what we want as well, cooperation with you guys against them after we take over Aloha.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
But by taking over Aloha, you delay the attack on Epsilon, and weaken potential future allies in that same war.
1889 says:
I thought you stopped advancing against Aloha long ago though?
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Any delay is good news for Epsilon as they grow stronger, so it is bad news for all of us.
Whomp says:
Well you can talk to Aloha but I'm pretty pessimistic they'd take peace...I know BCLG, Robi D and Robboo too well
Mikkel says:
but surely continuing it as a phony war is possible?
1889 says:
Well work on it and in the mean time how about renewing the Open borders. Its nothing more than we did for you long ago.
Mikkel says:
it would a long way in convincing us of your good intentions
Whomp says:
We're concerned about the intel you're giving our enemy.
Casey says:
Realistically, I think (and me alone mind you) if Aloha ponies up 2-3 scientists and some gpt, say 50, we would be much more amenable to peace with them.
Mikkel says:
so are we...
Whomp says:
You'd need to sign an agreement that guarantees our OB is for your eyes only
1889 says:
They can't possably launch an invasion of Piffle LOL
Whomp says:
It would be tough without a ship to build
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Easily done... I don't believe we've passed any information from Open Borders on to any other nation anyway.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Casey says:
Realistically, I think (and me alone mind you) if Aloha ponies up 2-3 scientists and some gpt, say 50, we would be much more amenable to peace with them.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Realistically, I don't think that you could get ANYONE to agree to such a deal.
Whomp says:
It's a starting point
Whomp says:
always go big first

John - Lord Parkin - emp has left the conversation.

Casey says:
well you guys could help them out with that, and we could share the spoils
1889 says:
You said the war was dragging on because of Aloha's unreasonable demands. Shouldn't getting them to drop their demands be good enough?
Casey says:
so not that bad of a deal

John - Lord Parkin - emp has been added to the conversation.

John - Lord Parkin - emp is already in this conversation.

1889 says:
Wait, now you want our alliance to start of by us paying you to make peace with them?
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Hmph? Did I miss a few lines?
Whomp says:
Bear in mind if Loco is gone and Aloha is gone it puts you on that island
Whomp says:
Without a deal

Casey has left the conversation.

Whomp says:
I'd be concerned about Loco's existence
Whomp says:
It's a matter of time with Aloha and it will not be easy
1889 says:
brb

Casey has been added to the conversation.

Whomp says:
Holy cow the weather here is insane
Casey says:
there we go
Whomp says:
It's been thunderstorming for what seems like two weeks here
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
brb
Whomp says:
k
1889 says:
Yes, what a summer it thunderstormed here once. Thats pretty unusual.
Mikkel says:
here it's just extremely humid... quite annoying
Whomp says:
here too
Whomp says:
Emp is from NZ. Where do you guys live?
Mikkel says:
Denmark
1889 says:
Alaska
Whomp says:
I know Casey's place and he's probably going to get all my weather
Casey says:
its been thundering pretty much the last few hours, i thought a bomb had gone off
Casey says:
it was so loud
Whomp says:
someone in my building had a glass table on their deck and it sliced through the building next door's roof
Whomp says:
eek
1889 says:
Yes storms are something else, but nothings quite lick the storm of war (Lame segway)
Whomp says:
OK haha
1889 says:
Back to your last remark about Loco and Aloha's demise.
Casey says:
heh
1889 says:
You said that leaves us alone, So you feel that we need you more than you need us?
Whomp says:
My presumption is that will happen at some point
Whomp says:
Kind of
Casey says:
i have full confidence we can make a good run at beating epsilon by ourselves or at least make them limp across the finish line
1889 says:
Well its Epsilon and Aloha right now though right?
Casey says:
and not to be brash but yes I think you need us more than we need you. If Loco is eliminated (probable) and Aloha is eliminated (probable), then it is just the 3 of us. since we have worked with epsilon from the beginning, I think we can be in the position to keep that up vs. Innovia or join with you vs. them. I really think we are the wildcard. I know I would rather fight Dave McW with help.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
We are all wildcards.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Don't make the assumption that we need you. Innovia can get by without you. However, your chances of defeating Epsilon are vastly increased if you have our aid.
Mikkel says:
yes, but if Loco survives I think you would be more inclined to coorperate
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
that too
Whomp says:
i
Casey says:
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Don't make the assumption that we need you. Innovia can get by without you. However, your chances of defeating Epsilon are vastly increased if you have our aid.
Casey says:
i couldnt agree more
Whomp says:
i'd be concerned about Loco's chances
Mikkel says:
well, it depends on how soon we act...
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Yes. Loco can't hold up forever, but if Epsilon is distracted or deterred then I'd suspect that they'll be able to hold their ground.
Mikkel says:
if they lost their economic security (you) I don't think they'd continue ripping Loco to pieces
1889 says:
Personally I kind of doubt Loco will servive so maybe we can both agree to help them fight Epsilon for what ever damage it could do to our common foe. (the only thing we can agree on so far)
Mikkel says:
yes, no doubt that Loco makes a fine meat shield for the time being
Whomp says:
It's no shock Davemcw is taking turns
1889 says:
"meat shield" <- haha
Whomp says:

John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Loco will not survive indefinitely without aid, that's true. But I believe they can do a fairly good job of delaying things, especially with help.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Mmm... meat...
Mikkel says:
I thought it was a completely normal expression
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
sort of... perhaps a little uncommon/unusual though...
Whomp says:
I like and will use it
Casey says:
I think GeorgeOP was a meat shield for you in Civivor eh, Emperor?
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Partially. Partially he was just very, very lucky.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
He should have been gone about 20 turns before he was
Mikkel says:
Well, playing warhammer tabletop games like me, you use that expression often
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
1 wounded Archer generally doesn't have much chance of holding off 3 impis
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
<1%, but he got it
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
heh
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
not to worry though
Whomp says:
you guys are rocking in that game
Whomp says:
anyhow should we recap?
Casey says:
and i was even gonig to help him out, Darkness & Co. doesnt realize that YOU are the Epsilon in that game but they keep suiciding into me
Casey says:
sounds good
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
actually we're far from it, most of our score comes from pop/territory... in tech we're fairly average and in power we're only a little above
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
okay
Whomp says:
1. OB
1889 says:
2 work on Aloha
Whomp says:
Only with some guarantee
Whomp says:
Yes on 2.
Whomp says:
Then we can hammer out the Epsilon problem
1889 says:
3 mutual aid to Loco (a sugestion that needs much work still)
Whomp says:
Yep
1889 says:
Sounds good then.
1889 says:
Keep dry.
Whomp says:

Whomp says:
Thanks for the king crabs btw
Whomp says:
they're pretty cheap at the grocery store here
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Yeah, keep well.
Casey says:
its been great guys, i think we can hammer out some deals
1889 says:
You bastards, we can hardly get them up here.
Whomp says:
Haha
Whomp says:
That's just wrong
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
heh
Whomp says:
Like $8.99/lb
Whomp says:
ok let's try to circle back by monday?
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
I don't think I'll be around this time on monday (I'll be working next week), but will still see what I can do
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
I'm sure that others will be available anyway
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
nice having the chance to talk to all of you guys this time.
Whomp says:
Sounds good and PM or email too
Mikkel says:
I'm not usually available this late, but a few hours earlier it should be likely that im around
Whomp says:
No probs
1889 says:
Talk to you then-ish. Good-bye all.
Whomp says:
Bye all. Happy Civving
Mikkel says:
bye all and good night (or whatever is appropriate for your time zone)
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Bye. Have a good evening / morning / afternoon / night, depending on your time zone.

1889 has left the conversation.

Mikkel says:
emp - are you logging it?
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
I got booted for a while due to my internet connection
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
best if you do it, I'm missing most of the first half
Mikkel says:
okay, will do
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
cool

Chat with Piffle:

Whomp, Killercane(Casey) vs. Theoden(Mikkel), Emperor(John) and 1889 as himself.

Never give out your password or credit card number in an instant message conversation.

1889 says:
Hey Whomp, its 1889 of Innovia. Got time to discuss the game?
Whomp says:
Hi
Whomp says:
I just finished a little pitboss turn
Whomp says:
brb
1889 says:
sorry here I am.

Mikkel has been added to the conversation.

John - Lord Parkin - emp has been added to the conversation.

1889 says:
Parkin and Theo are about also. I sent invites.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
hi there...
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
got it this time
1889 says:
Wow I actually did it!
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
well done...
1889 says:
Uh...Whomp is busy right now.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
okay, no problem
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
offline, it appears...
Mikkel says:
Hi..
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
hi there
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
how's life?
Mikkel says:
that's a complicated question as usual I guess
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
heh
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
that's good, I hope...
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
things are generally fine in my neck of the woods
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
busy, but fine...
1889 says:
Complications are never good.
Mikkel says:
where is your neck of the woods actually?
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
I'd disagree there, 1889... some can be good.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
New Zealand
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Christchurch, specifically...
Mikkel says:
life would be boring without complications
Whomp says:
Gentlemen
1889 says:
Life would be boring without excitment, not the same as complications.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
indeed. complications involving females can be particularly interesting.
Whomp says:
Had to attend to honey do's
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
good evening, whomp...
1889 says:
Hi Whomp.
Mikkel says:
hi whomp
Whomp says:
How is everyone?

John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
fairly fine...
Whomp says:
Lord P my sister moved to Wellington recently
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Ah, ok... that's cool. I'll be visiting Wellington the weekend after this one, actually.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
(University holidays for the next 2 weeks, starting tomorrow.)
Whomp says:
Very nice
Whomp says:
She really likes living there
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Yep, it's a nice place.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Where's home for you by the way?
Whomp says:
Chicago
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
ah, right
Whomp says:
She met her husband in New York
Whomp says:
he worked for NZ econ. development
Whomp says:
I did a haka for at their wedding reception
1889 says:
Small world huh? Just like the MTDG.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
cool..
Whomp says:
So true
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
yep...
Whomp says:
So to b'ness
1889 says:
(1889 displays his poor conversational skills.)
Whomp says:
Hehe
Whomp says:
Can I bring in Killercane?
1889 says:
Of course.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
go ahead...

Casey has been added to the conversation.

Mikkel says:
sure
Whomp says:
Hi Case
Casey says:
whats going on
1889 says:
Hello Kane.
Whomp says:
I have the bright minds of Innovia here
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
heh
Casey says:
they of the sneaky camel archer
1889 says:
First off, Innovia was unable to accept Piffle's trade deal as offered.
Whomp says:

Whomp says:
ok
Whomp says:
So where do we stand
Whomp says:
the lines seem to be drawn
1889 says:
Not at all. I explained a bit in my email response.
1889 says:
We clearly have much that can benefit eachother and little to gain from propegating poor relations.
1889 says:
Do either of you disagree?
Whomp says:
We're a bit concerned how the discussion of walking through your lands went. If I recall our warrior blocked Magadan from a barb
1889 says:
Sorry Whomp I'm not sure what you mean.
Casey says:
nope. i suggested we work together some time ago with mikkel, and nothing came of that.
Casey says:
but we are all ears
1889 says:
Casey, I looked over that chat a few days ago.
1889 says:
Lots of sugestioins but few concrete plans.
1889 says:
The only real sugestion was that we abandon Aloha and trade exclusivly with Piffle.
Mikkel says:
as i remember it that chat seemed to open up possibilities, it was just that the time wasn't right for any concrete deals
1889 says:
It was rather one sided and never explained what benefit it would provide Innovia.
Casey says:
there was no follow up on your part. the benefits were techs to you IIRC.
1889 says:
At the time of that chat you still had a number of turns of a peace treatty with Epsilon, so options were limited.
Casey says:
but thats a long time ago anyways, we can always start fresh. hell i cant remember that far back . epsilon is the one we must both overcome
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
I find that surprising coming from piffle...
Mikkel says:
well, the team declined the kind of coorperation that you were suggesting back then, that's why nothing happened.... doens't mean that we don't have new options now
1889 says:
Yes, did you have some plan to distance yourselves from Epsilon?
Whomp says:
It's obvious they're the runaway here
1889 says:
We keep seeing the tech deals and are wondering why?
Whomp says:
As we see techs and military
Whomp says:
We've been backed into a corner with no other trading partners, no?

Mikkel says:
but don't you think trading with Epsilons fuels their lead?
Casey says:
who are we going to trade with, loco?
1889 says:
Why not end the war with Aloha? I havn't herd much action on that continent for a few centuries.
Casey says:
of course it fuels their lead, which is why we want/wanted to become trading partners with you guys.
Mikkel says:
well, the reason you're meeting reluctancy among others to trade with you is because you trade with epsilon...
Whomp says:
Aloha won't accept terms
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
and what are the terms?
Whomp says:
They asked for something ridiculous
Casey says:
BCLG says there will be no peace, they cannot win so they are just going to bog us down
Whomp says:
Case do you remember?
Casey says:
they want settlers or something to repopulate their little neck of the woods
Casey says:
i dont think we will be paying THEM
Whomp says:
right
Whomp says:
two settlers and gold or tech...
Mikkel says:
that's certainly understandable that you won't accept
Whomp says:
that's not happening
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
still, also understandable that Aloha would want a little compensation...
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
they've been rather taken to the woodshed after all...
Whomp says:
No doubt
1889 says:
War weariness not a proiblem for you at all? I understand not wanting to pay the loosers, but it can be worth the cost.
Mikkel says:
yes, but they aren't really in a position to demand much unless WW is bad for Piffle?
1889 says:
Working out peace with Loco has ben quite beneficial.
Whomp says:
They haven't hit us
Casey says:
what did you get out of that deal
Casey says:
and why did you nix the pyramids?
Mikkel says:
nothing, straight up peace IIRC
Whomp says:
that won't happen with aloha
Casey says:
well you guys could declare on aloha if deals permit, that would go a long way towards us working together
Whomp says:
especially with the military you're giving them
Whomp says:
it would shock the world in their backdoor
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Here's the thing. From my point of view, if you guys are actually serious about wanting to take down Epsilon and not just saying that for the sake of saying it or misinforming us, then we actually all need to work together. ALL of us - the whole four other nations. From my analysis of the demographics, that's the only way we'd stand a chance.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
So if you're serious, then peace with Aloha is the only option. Asking us to declare war on Aloha sounds plain stupid to me, from Innovia's perspective.
Mikkel says:
completely agree with lord parkin there
Whomp says:
As I said it seems lines have been drawn already
1889 says:
Loco and Aloha still produce science. They can get techs for us, even if it is rather slow.
Mikkel says:
besides, we are not exactly in a positoin to declare on aloha with a clean reputation at the moment
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
We're not the ones drawing most of the lines though...
Whomp says:
We won't give settlers to Aloha
Casey says:
because we wont make peace with people who have vowed war forever? Do you want to supply settlers and the gold for us to make peace with Aloha??
Mikkel says:
no, but we could try to convince them otherwise
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
That's not what I said... I'm sure alternative arrangements could be negotiated.
Whomp says:
That would be a start
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
The important thing is the peace, how it is achieved is secondary.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
But we could try to help out there.
Mikkel says:
I'm sure aloha would listen to reason for the greater good of annoying epsilon..
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
(If you were serious about starting to move against Epsilon.)
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Indeed.
1889 says:
brb
Mikkel says:
or... we can choose to watch while epsilon crushes Loco and becomes even stronger
Casey says:
Mikkel says:
I'm sure aloha would listen to reason for the greater good of annoying epsilon..
Casey says:
i posed that to them, and they dislike us more, according to them.
Casey says:
so you guys have some work to do to make peace
Casey says:
interesting international negotiations we have going here
Mikkel says:
i didn't expect them to hate you more, honestly
Mikkel says:
that means we have to convince them a LOT
Whomp says:
Well we've destroyed them economically and coastal
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
I'm not too surprised. But I suspect that they would probably be more inclined to listen to Innovia (who have been friends for many years) as opposed to the nation who is currently taking them to the park.
1889 says:
My wife thinks she's pregnant.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Perhaps, but they can always recover given time. And in any event, a war against Epsilon would be stronger with a little bit of extra help than without.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Wow, really?
1889 says:
Well, when a man and a woman are in love...
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Heh. Congratulations, then.
Whomp says:
Nice 1889!!
Casey says:
congrats if true!
Mikkel says:
good news for you indeed!
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
brb
1889 says:
The war with Aloha is a matter for Piffle and Aloha. We have made our sugestioins and will do what we can to help, but peace there is not the game breaker.
Whomp says:
Is it not for Innovia?
Whomp says:
If we align with Epsilon how do you contend with that?
Whomp says:
Two strong economies vs. 1
Whomp says:
and 1 likely to disappear soon
Mikkel says:
why would you do that... epsilon will surely win
Whomp says:
We realize our fate
1889 says:
If they are truly intransigent on the peace araingment we can leave them to their own devices with a clean consiuns[sic]
Mikkel says:
but surely in a loco-innovia-piffle vs epsilon war you would have a good chance of getting the spoils
Whomp says:
We'd need peace with Aloha for that to work
Whomp says:
we're not going to be left on a tech island by ourselves
1889 says:
I thought war with Aloha was not causing you any harm?
Whomp says:
It's not but why start two fronts?
Mikkel says:
because it neccesary? and besides aloha shouldn't be a danger to you any time soon
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
I guess we could try to do what we can to arrange peace with Aloha.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
If you would join against Epsilon, you would surely not be left on a 'tech island' as you say.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
I would think that mutual technology trading would be an obvious part of such an alliance.
Mikkel says:
off course we'll do what we can to help with the peace through our relations with them... just don't expect us to declare war on them
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Indeed, agreed.
Whomp says:
that's fair
Whomp says:
We'd need to know soon
1889 says:
Aside from that issue how are your current plans working? How are you going to get out of your tech alliance with Epsilon?
Whomp says:
That's why we'd need to know soon
1889 says:
Why are you about to renew some long term deal?
Whomp says:
We're in negotiations
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Yes, but that doesn't answer the question. Is there a way for you to realistically get out of whatever arrangements with Epsilon you might have (technological, military etc)?
Casey says:
we have some plans. we have been trying to determine how to beat them for 2000 years so we were bound to come up with some good options.
Casey says:
but it will be easier with an ally.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
or three.
1889 says:
So how long do we have? How long have you already stalled ? how much longer can you stall/
Mikkel says:
so if we could convince you that there would be two or three allies ready you could be able to stop trading with epsilon soon?
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
And moreover, cut off all ties with them?
Whomp says:
That would go over big with Piffle
1889 says:
Loco is already at war with Epsilon, no problem allying with them. and their economy is still in good shape Aloha is insignificant as an ally.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Perhaps, but still better to have them at least neutral than as an enemy... if we're going against Epsilon we don't need any extra problems.
Mikkel says:
yeah, worst case scenario is that they'll cut us off as well for coorperating with the "enemy"
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
I don't think they'd do that, unless they're hell-bent on suicide as a nation...
Mikkel says:
not an impossibility given their current politics...
Casey says:
But it has to be a realistic proposal. We would be giving up Aloha land, commerce, and production by forgoing war. If Loco holds out better than Aloha, we have a leg up on Epsilon. How would we be compensated for that in a peace arrangement?
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
You mean with Aloha?
1889 says:
What are you giving up by forgoing war with Aloha?
Mikkel says:
cities...
Mikkel says:
though im not sure more cities would make any positive return for you economically at the moment
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Why the need for compensation? The threat of Epsilon is growing, and if we don't do something about it soon then they may well run away with the game. By going to war in a world alliance, it is likely that Piffle will be the strongest nation once Epsilon has been taken down. Isn't that quite an incentive in itself?
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
No, Aloha can do better with the cities than Piffle can.
Mikkel says:
and again... we're not requiring you to make peace with Aloha, we're just asking you to join against epsilon
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
exactly
Casey says:
Well thats what we want as well, cooperation with you guys against them after we take over Aloha.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
But by taking over Aloha, you delay the attack on Epsilon, and weaken potential future allies in that same war.
1889 says:
I thought you stopped advancing against Aloha long ago though?
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Any delay is good news for Epsilon as they grow stronger, so it is bad news for all of us.
Whomp says:
Well you can talk to Aloha but I'm pretty pessimistic they'd take peace...I know BCLG, Robi D and Robboo too well
Mikkel says:
but surely continuing it as a phony war is possible?
1889 says:
Well work on it and in the mean time how about renewing the Open borders. Its nothing more than we did for you long ago.
Mikkel says:
it would a long way in convincing us of your good intentions
Whomp says:
We're concerned about the intel you're giving our enemy.
Casey says:
Realistically, I think (and me alone mind you) if Aloha ponies up 2-3 scientists and some gpt, say 50, we would be much more amenable to peace with them.
Mikkel says:
so are we...
Whomp says:
You'd need to sign an agreement that guarantees our OB is for your eyes only
1889 says:
They can't possably launch an invasion of Piffle LOL
Whomp says:
It would be tough without a ship to build
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Easily done... I don't believe we've passed any information from Open Borders on to any other nation anyway.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Casey says:
Realistically, I think (and me alone mind you) if Aloha ponies up 2-3 scientists and some gpt, say 50, we would be much more amenable to peace with them.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Realistically, I don't think that you could get ANYONE to agree to such a deal.
Whomp says:
It's a starting point
Whomp says:
always go big first

John - Lord Parkin - emp has left the conversation.

Casey says:
well you guys could help them out with that, and we could share the spoils
1889 says:
You said the war was dragging on because of Aloha's unreasonable demands. Shouldn't getting them to drop their demands be good enough?
Casey says:
so not that bad of a deal

John - Lord Parkin - emp has been added to the conversation.

1889 says:
Wait, now you want our alliance to start of by us paying you to make peace with them?
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Hmph? Did I miss a few lines? ^o)
Whomp says:
Bear in mind if Loco is gone and Aloha is gone it puts you on that island
Whomp says:
Without a deal

Casey has left the conversation.

Whomp says:
I'd be concerned about Loco's existence
Whomp says:
It's a matter of time with Aloha and it will not be easy
1889 says:
brb

Casey has been added to the conversation.

Whomp says:
Holy cow the weather here is insane
Casey says:
there we go
Whomp says:
It's been thunderstorming for what seems like two weeks here
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
brb
Whomp says:
k
1889 says:
Yes, what a summer it thunderstormed here once. Thats pretty unusual.
Mikkel says:
here it's just extremely humid... quite annoying
Whomp says:
here too
Whomp says:
Emp is from NZ. Where do you guys live?
Mikkel says:
Denmark
1889 says:
Alaska
Whomp says:
I know Casey's place and he's probably going to get all my weather
Casey says:
its been thundering pretty much the last few hours, i thought a bomb had gone off
Casey says:
it was so loud
Whomp says:
someone in my building had a glass table on their deck and it sliced through the building next door's roof
Whomp says:
eek
1889 says:
Yes storms are something else, but nothings quite lick the storm of war (Lame segway)
Whomp says:
OK haha
1889 says:
Back to your last remark about Loco and Aloha's demise.
Casey says:
heh
1889 says:
You said that leaves us alone, So you feel that we need you more than you need us?
Whomp says:
My presumption is that will happen at some point
Whomp says:
Kind of
Casey says:
i have full confidence we can make a good run at beating epsilon by ourselves or at least make them limp across the finish line
1889 says:
Well its Epsilon and Aloha right now though right?
Casey says:
and not to be brash but yes I think you need us more than we need you. If Loco is eliminated (probable) and Aloha is eliminated (probable), then it is just the 3 of us. since we have worked with epsilon from the beginning, I think we can be in the position to keep that up vs. Innovia or join with you vs. them. I really think we are the wildcard. I know I would rather fight Dave McW with help.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
We are all wildcards.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Don't make the assumption that we need you. Innovia can get by without you. However, your chances of defeating Epsilon are vastly increased if you have our aid.
Mikkel says:
yes, but if Loco survives I think you would be more inclined to coorperate
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
that too
Whomp says:
i
Casey says:
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Don't make the assumption that we need you. Innovia can get by without you. However, your chances of defeating Epsilon are vastly increased if you have our aid.
Casey says:
i couldnt agree more
Whomp says:
i'd be concerned about Loco's chances
Mikkel says:
well, it depends on how soon we act...
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Yes. Loco can't hold up forever, but if Epsilon is distracted or deterred then I'd suspect that they'll be able to hold their ground.
Mikkel says:
if they lost their economic security (you) I don't think they'd continue ripping Loco to pieces
1889 says:
Personally I kind of doubt Loco will servive so maybe we can both agree to help them fight Epsilon for what ever damage it could do to our common foe. (the only thing we can agree on so far)
Mikkel says:
yes, no doubt that Loco makes a fine meat shield for the time being
Whomp says:
It's no shock Davemcw is taking turns
1889 says:
"meat shield" <- haha
Whomp says:
hahaha
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Loco will not survive indefinitely without aid, that's true. But I believe they can do a fairly good job of delaying things, especially with help.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Mmm... meat...
Mikkel says:
I thought it was a completely normal expression
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
sort of... perhaps a little uncommon/unusual though...
Whomp says:
I like and will use it
Casey says:
I think GeorgeOP was a meat shield for you in Civivor eh, Emperor?
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Partially. Partially he was just very, very lucky.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
He should have been gone about 20 turns before he was
Mikkel says:
Well, playing warhammer tabletop games like me, you use that expression often
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
1 wounded Archer generally doesn't have much chance of holding off 3 impis
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
<1%, but he got it
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
heh
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
not to worry though
Whomp says:
you guys are rocking in that game
Whomp says:
anyhow should we recap?
Casey says:
and i was even gonig to help him out, Darkness & Co. doesnt realize that YOU are the Epsilon in that game but they keep suiciding into me
Casey says:
sounds good
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
actually we're far from it, most of our score comes from pop/territory... in tech we're fairly average and in power we're only a little above
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
okay
Whomp says:
1. OB
1889 says:
2 work on Aloha
Whomp says:
Only with some guarantee
Whomp says:
Yes on 2.
Whomp says:
Then we can hammer out the Epsilon problem
1889 says:
3 mutual aid to Loco (a sugestion that needs much work still)
Whomp says:
Yep
1889 says:
Sounds good then.
1889 says:
Keep dry.
Whomp says:

Whomp says:
Thanks for the king crabs btw
Whomp says:
they're pretty cheap at the grocery store here
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Yeah, keep well.
Casey says:
its been great guys, i think we can hammer out some deals
1889 says:
You bastards, we can hardly get them up here.
Whomp says:
Haha
Whomp says:
That's just wrong
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
heh
Whomp says:
Like $8.99/lb
Whomp says:
ok let's try to circle back by monday?
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
I don't think I'll be around this time on monday (I'll be working next week), but will still see what I can do
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
I'm sure that others will be available anyway
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
nice having the chance to talk to all of you guys this time.
Whomp says:
Sounds good and PM or email too
Mikkel says:
I'm not usually available this late, but a few hours earlier it should be likely that im around
Whomp says:
No probs
1889 says:
Talk to you then-ish. Good-bye all.

:lol:

I think we got the chat covered now! Funny crosspost...

Yes, watch out Dutch, my typing is improving.

I'll summarize and start some action on it later tonight maybe.

Nice work guys, kept me busy reading this during another hour of class :D

Congrats 1889 :)

Well they aren't going to be any help. Their plan is to stay alive and hope that Epsilon gets dragged into a costly war with us that will let them squeak out a space victory. They won't help us defeat Epsilon because then they are in a race to space with us being undistracted. Also if they did turn on Epsilon they would be the back stabbers and may get the brunt of Epsilons wrath.

The problem is that its just crazy enough to work since we are about to declare on Epsilon.

You mean Piffle will win with a space victory, with us going down in a war?

Next time edit the chat, we do not need the female carousing dialogue to prove you are fond of women, live in New York, Chicago and Cristchurch, we all live in a global village, and I am in contact with droves of nationalities each month, so please spare me the personal things :) hehe

No way thats all valuable stuff to the trained eye. :shifty:

Clearly our best shot is for Parkin to find Whomp's sister and see what she knows of Piffle's plans. Maybe she likes crab legs too, I actually know a guy...

I was board so I sent some emails.

Greetings Team Piffle,

Well we finally heard from Aloha. We got them to drop all of their demands at least. They are willing to accept straight peace but I think you'll want something more than that. 2-3 GP and 50 GPT is imposable for them though. I think that's about all we can do for now until you two find a little common ground on the terms.

Let us know what you decide,
1889 of Team Innovia

The time wasting continues. Anybody with any idea of how this came become something useful?



>I have posted your message in the team forum. Speaking for myself
> only and not for the team, I'm not exactly sure what you are
> proposing. What is it that we are supposed to decide? Peace with
> Aloha, I gather. Is that it, or is there more to your proposal?
>
> Sorry if I missed something somewhere. But maybe a recap would help?
>
> Thanks,
> Conroe


my reply
Yes, in a recent chat I was asked by Whomp and Killercane to try and mediate peace between Piffle and Aloha.

Seems to me that they haven't really tried to get that straight up peace. Maybe they forgot how they "lied" to us and are now getting confused internally. Or am I being too suspicious?

I can't think of much to write besides restating that we got Aloha to acceot straight peace and that they agreed to that as well in the chat...

Did anything more come of this?

No, the whole pointless story is posted here.

Maybe send them a new letter?

If nobody else feels like it I'll do it when I get back. I think we first need a three way chat to see if Piffle and Aloha are ready to get along. Before we let them in on the tech alliance I think we need and end to the Piffle/Aloha war, I feel Piffle owes us their map and I'd expect open borders down the road also.

Does anyone know a nice way to say "ya right!" It may be fun, but we could never eliminate Epsilon and I certainly don't trust Piffle enough to throw myself into something this ambitious. As the war progressed we'd just get more and more nervous about how the post war situation would settle up and which side of that mess Epsilon would choose to side with.

Innovia and Aloha,

We would like to discuss I.K.E.A. (International Konquering of Epsilon Agreement). Attached is a pic of the majority of Epsilon lands. We hope to attack from all 4 directions if that is amenable.

Tech
Piffle researches Fission and builds Manhatten until 1 turn left, and accrues gold to finish Manhatten on the turn they receive rocketry to rush nukes.
Innovia researches Rocketry. We trade Fission and Rocketry across (Fission probably beforehand).
Aloha helps each team with research or does combustion???

Attack
Points one and two will be Innovia invasion
Point 3 is Aloha.
Point 4 is Piffle (along with Sunset Fortress probably)
Nukes will be hitting all 4 locations the turn before and maybe inland to cut roads as well. Some dickering around with nukes shows that Camel Archers have no problem with the heavily injured infantry expected, so likewise Cossacks should have free reign.

Epsilon tech progress
They are currently finishing Electricity and then going for Industrialism. It doesnt look like they will be able to build tanks until plastics with the oil situation so they shouldnt get that far.

Dividing Epsilon land is up for discussion.

Let us know what you think, and we can make some changes to the plan. We probably need to make some tech timelines. Current thinking is this will go down in 25-30 turns or sooner.

Piffle

Thanks for the map!

I say let's go for it, if we are going to lose, might as well make them fight all the way

if we went for it though, i would attack Sunrise Citadel, cut the massive army (unless they have moved it all) off that were taking over Loco.
If we went for sunrise citadel, we would need a fleet of at least one carrier, two would be better and three would be really nice, full of fighters, enough ships in it to hold back Epsilon's navy because no doubt will they sense something is up, for long enough to get and capture the city + will would need lots of infantry/marines and arty/fighters from carriers to hold Epsilon back.

The aftermath, i suspect it would be like the aftermath of WW2, superpowers would form, and if we played it right we could be one of those superpowers, Piffle being the other one. Hopefully we should be able to convince Aloha to join our side, help with research, also is we contiue and try and research as much as possible during the war, hoping that Piffle , don't put much attention to research, so that after the war, and if no-one has won yet, we are in a good position to get a spaceship up.

Maybe we could enter our forces slighty later (three or so turns) , therefore all of Epsilon's might will be directed at Piffle and we come in and finish off whats left of the Epsilon's army which will have seriously damaged Piffle's army. so we would come out better from the war (like USA in WW2)

Mind you is is extremely risky and the odds are against us, but we have nothing to lose!

Joe's plan is so crazy that it just might work, so I say we go for it. If nothing else, we will make Epsilon fight for their prize. I guess we're pretty sure to have Aloha on our side, so the chances of giving Piffle the victory, IMHO the worst outcome, are quite small. Most importantly, it might reintroduce the concept of fun into this game. :)

(PS: The past week or so has been holiday for me, hence my inactivity. I'm back now, though)

Sorry guys, my vote is no. Chances are Epsilon will make some preemptive strike before we get our forces together. Also as soon as one of our allies suffers a serious reversal participation will drop and all chance of effective coordination are lost.

Epsilon will be on defense against three much weaker nations and considering the advantages they already enjoy I think they will out nuke us all.

But thats still 2-1 in favor of war. Lets hear from Dutch and any lurkers we may still have.

I say, don't do it.

When looking at the save, you can see Epsilon Frigates literally everywhere. They will spot an invasion immediately. They can easily destroy our galleons, so we'd have to have better ships. We also need better ground units to be able to hurt them. And when we have these better units, Epsilon will have better units too.

Besides, our current army is just enough to defend our country, if we want to attack, we would need to build an entirely new army. All preparations would take so long that Epsilon will probably win before we set sail.

That's two in favour and two against. I guess it's out of the question then, which I'm fine with btw - I'd just wish there was another option than giving Epsilon a UN victory.

Infantry and Machine Guns, I doubt we'd be able to even hurt them, let alone take a city. By the way, I am sailing some caravels to check out their cities.

Well let's wait and see what our carvels pick see and then make a deicison, dutchfire is almost certainly right, but it is worth hecking for any gaps Epsilon have left.

BTW, i am with Theoden, ie i just want to have a fun game, rather than a victory parade for Epsilon, but if it isn't doable, then there is no point doing it.

I think it might be wiser for us not to go to war, but I'm not sure - I'd need to check the save thoroughly to give a final opinion. However, sitting around waiting for Epsilon to win doesn't particularly thrill me either. Perhaps some kind of small secret invasion could be arranged as a compromise. I'm not sure how plausible that is though.

Whats the word on the Epsilon Nuke Plan?

From Killercane, in my PM box.

With our artist how long until Mass Media? Do you still want to keep the UN plan on the low down?

Our response to Piffle's Nuke Plan:

Dear Piffletarians,

Considering the extremely short-lived nature of our past tech alliance, you must understand that our trust and faith in you is a little lacking at present, and so we are not inclined to enter into any military adventures with you at this time. However, if you would be willing to share your technological discoveries with us, this would certainly help to lay down some foundations of trust, and we could begin to consider your plans for a military alliance. Sharing your technologies would help to rebuild the trusting and cooperative relationship that has so far been lacking in our dealings with you, and which is essential if we are to align forces in a military campaign. If we cannot trust you, we cannot have the kind of relationship which is very necessary for any sort of military alliance, and so we cannot agree to your plan.

We hope you understand our position,
Team Innovia

Round and around...

Well no we dont understand your position. What do you mean short lived tech alliance?

Can someone bring me up to date on exactly what did and didn't happen with the so-called "tech alliance"?

Joe posted something on Jan 11. Joe do you remember wherte you got the tech alliance sugestion from?

The discussion with Piffle was all in the f4 screen. Basically we told them twice what we were working on and the would get bach to us a few turns latter saying they are further along could we research something else. I'll try and post the actuall conversations when I get some time tonight.

Quote is from 1889, posted in the aloha contact thread, I got the message from the gmail inbox and it was from aloha.

Edit: this was the message

Piffle wanted to know if you would be willing to work out a deal for physics. They are aslo interested in some form of long term cooperation throguh techs and military to deal with epsilon. Let us know what you think

In 1570 we told Piffle about our progress toward Railroad. In 1575 they said "We are 4K toward it and should finish electricity soon via bulb, Aloha is doing Artillery, could you guys do something else?"

In 1580 we switch to corporation in order to open up Assembly line and inform Piffle.

In 1585 Piffle gets corporation from Epsilon.

1590 Epsilon finishes Railroad.

1595 they get Assembly Line from Epsilon and say "We need to have a meeting sometime to discuss the Epsilon problem."

Soon after the get Electricity and give it to Epsilon.

End Transmission.

In 1570 we told Piffle about our progress toward Railroad. In 1575 they said "We are 4K toward it and should finish electricity soon via bulb, Aloha is doing Artillery, could you guys do something else?"

In 1580 we switch to corporation in order to open up Assembly line and inform Piffle.

In 1585 Piffle gets corporation from Epsilon.

1590 Epsilon finishes Railroad.

1595 they get Assembly Line from Epsilon and say "We need to have a meeting sometime to discuss the Epsilon problem."

Soon after the get Electricity and give it to Epsilon.

End Transmission.If this is the case then I suggest we send a message similar to this to Piffle to inform them of how we see things, and see what they have to say for themselves.

They have lied before in previous chats. I suspect their attitude is that despite the clear implications of their communication the never made any specific promise. Similar to Bill Clinton's attitude when he stated, probably with a clear lawyer's conscience, "I did not have sex with that woman."

The game hinges on Epsilon's response now. If they give us the green light we only have a few turns left. If they do not approve, we only have a few turns left. Piffle can't/won't do anything for us in the few remaining turns.

Peter is running things at Piffle now and he sent this strange greeting:

Greetings!


Piffle has a new turnplayer, as you may have heard. Peter Grimes is now writing to you, as the mouthpiece of the Piffle nation. The briefing meetings are designed to bring me up to speed, but unfortunately I don't have time to stay for all of them. There are several other nations that I'm managing right now - some of them are going well, and some of them need a lot of my personal attention. For that reason, I'm requesting from each of you a report on our current standing with regards to IKEA. Please summarize your current status of forces, status of research, and anything else we need to execute this plan.


Clearly, Innovia is between a rock and a hard place. Forgive my ignorance, but if there's anything that Piffle and Aloha can do to forestall the steamroller, please let us know.


I plan to honor all past arrangements, but it may take me some time to wade through the history to figure out exactly what those arrangements are. The save will be played on Monday morning. If there's anything pressing, make sure to make it known to me.


My personal email is Peter dot smith dot grimes at gmail.


Death to Epsilon!
-Peter

Not sure how we would make use of any aid at this point. Even if we got a bunch of techs our production is too low to make much use of them.

Also Robboo has just now decided to quite over the issue of Peter joining Piffle so the game may be over anyway.

And this in my email:

Hi,


I've been going through what little correspondence there is between our teams. There seems to be some latent hostility. That's doing none of us any good, and in many ways it's doing us actual harm. Example: we should be working together as comrades in the fight against the imperialist dogs of Epsilon!


What can we do to help you fend off the attacks from Epsilon? What can Aloha do to help?


Please let us know your thoughts on the three honest teams taking out the lying infidels.


Death to Epsilon,
Peter the Piffle

And now this. As if I don't have enough to do!
Hi!


I presume the pigeons can't find their way home due to the invasion: I sent a letter to you guys a week ago, and still haven't heard a single peep back!


Piffle and Aloha are allied against the Epsilonian Imperialist Dogs. If you choose to join us, we may be able to offer assistance. If you choose to go it alone, then we wish you the best. Honestly. But speaking as one who knows, there is no way you can hope to withstand their continued onslaught.


Which brings me to my main point. How many turns do you realistically think you can hold them off? Aloha and Piffle have a plan (which I'm sure you've heard before). Have you considered a scorched earth tactic? What do you think Epsilon is hoping to gain in this war? Are they keeping your cities, or razing them?


Are they going for Domination, Conquest, or Spaceship?


There is, of course, a way for the three of us to stop them.


Death to Epsion,
Peter the Piffle


my proposed response is...

Thanks for the offer but honestly I don't know what you guys could possably do for us or vice-a-versa. Epsilon claims we have less than 10 turns. I'm not sure how seriously to take that estimate. It would take most of that just to get their troops to our most distant city. We are planning to use our last troops to defend cities rather than scorch our lands. Pillaging makes our units too easy to pick off, our improvments are numerous and our army small, but mostly we couldn't care less about the state of the world after we're dead.

The only units left to upgrade are a trio of axemen. So your welcome to contribute to our coffers for that if you like.

We'll also accept any techs you'd like to offer. Railroad will make machine guns available to us.

Epsilon has previously stated that want a spaceship victory, but I don't see how conquering Innovia helps them reach that goal. They are mostly keeping cities, but have razed them if it looked like we would retake it.

Hope that answers all your questions.

Good luck,
Team Innovia



EDIT: Whatever, I sent it.

Okay. You're right, it seems a bit weird and pointless for them to be bringing this up now, in our very last turns.

I wonder if he's thinking in terms of diplomatic? Do we know what the Aloha/Piffle plan is?

Epsilon already has 54% of world population. I forget the exact figure for UN victory, but it couldn't be less than 50%.

Epsilon already has 54% of world population. I forget the exact figure for UN victory, but it couldn't be less than 50%.

60%

Which is awefully close to their current 54%

Got this strange message from Piffle...

Innovia,
We hate to do it this way, but we have to tell you that our nations are now at war. With the luxury trade gone, there was nothing keeping us from taking advantage of the situation at hand. When the time comes, we will do everything we can to take your cities back from Epsilon. But that time is still a long way off.

Go in peace, and best of luck,
Peter the Piffle

I wonder if they are going to capture one of our costal cities, then try and beat Epsilon back, on a second front But i agree, it is a rather odd message and i don't know why they couldn't fight with us.

The other thing is that we might have uranium in our lands and they don't

What the...

Peter the Piffle is acting strangely.

Sent to Piffle (oops forgot to ask about the nukes.)

Piffle,

We have accepted your terms. We are committed to doing what we can to damage Epsilonian power. Epsilon has incurred significant war weariness in conquering the many cities of our nation. Those penalties will continue to damage their nation as long as we survive. Towards this end we were hoping that you would help escort our final worker back to Weaverville so that production and defense can be increased.

The attached screenshot shows were our worker will move on his homeward journey. He will be within range of Epsilonian units at a few points. We would appreciate if you would cut roads leading to, or end turns on the indicated tiles so that he returns home safe.

Thank you,
Team Innovia

Guys, Epsilon took out our Cavalry. Sorry we can't help out :sad:

-Piffle

Well I guess that isn't going to happen.

Better to take the time to build the Worker then. We're dead anyway if anyone decides to attack us, so we should work on the assumption that we'll be alive for a while longer, and try to improve our situation. ;)

Hmm, I guess that makes sense. Building a worker and an infantry will take something like 27 turns, building an infantry without improved tiles will take around 24 turns, so sure. Anyway we shouldn't last long enough to finish either in Epsilon is at all serious about it.

It looks like a lack of diplomacy on both our sides led to our dislike of each other. Really though was it open borders problem that led us to not like each other? You guys nixed all our proposals (pretty specific AGAINST Epsilon) and then didnt want to attack them in the end? I have to say we shot pretty straight from what I can see in our dealings towards you.

The open border rebuff was a blatant slap in our face and made a big impression on us. I think if you look back over this thread you'll get a pretty clear impression of our feelings toward your team. No hard feelings though, see you in the next game.