Good evening Hall of Famers. :cool:

As a good many of you have no doubt noticed, the FAQ page on the HOF website is woefully out of date. As I'm sure everyone has noticed, the QMS system is complex, and the page describing it could use clarity and improvement. A lot of questions, especially about QScores, are being asked here in the forum. :confused:

I answer the questions the best I can, and as quickly as I can, but obviously, the website needs new text. Herein lies the problem: I'm not entirely sure what all questions need posted, much less how to explain things. It's easily possible to overexplain QMS and underexplain something else. I've also got the disadvantage of having been on the staff side of IV since day one. I was a mere player in III for years before taking over, so I understand the community perspective well, but now, maybe not so much in regards to what's commonly known and what's known really only to staff! :blush:

So here's what I'm hoping to do with this thread, what I hope you'll help me with. Think back to each and every question you've ever asked, whether you're a relative newcomer or a veteran. Please, post them here. If you wish, post the answer you got. Or even better yet, select some of the questions you read here and post what you think should be the answer. If you see an answer you like, quote it and say so. "I agree" posts are generally frowned upon by CFC moderators, but for this thread, this moderator's asking for them.;) ;)

My hope here will be that we can have a thorough dialogue about good text to put on the website. It's certainly not that I and the staff don't mind answering questions, but it's for easier use for current and coming players. Maybe even just a few more turns of Civ we can each squeeze into each day. :D

To be perfectly honest, if there's even a rule you think could be phrased better, say so! Some might could be phrased more clearly without the rule actually being changed.

Every contributor to this thread will be honored with a city named after them
in my next huge map run, and those who provide questions and/or answers that get used in the final revisions will be credited on the website.

Thank you.

Example:
Why does superslug hate Khan so much?
That's a long story...
Okay, there's the first proposed question and answer. Are they worth putting on the website? Is the answer good enough or does it need improvement?

I have a quick question. What does QMS (Quattromasters) mean? I know of the Jedi Masters, but I never heard of the Quattromasters anywhere else?

Example:


Okay, there's the first proposed question and answer. Are they worth putting on the website?

Yes

Is the answer good enough or does it need improvement?

No, it needs improvement. "'slug has harboured an irrational hatred of Genghis Khan since his civ 1 days, when he was cruelly and unexpectedly defeated by Mongolian nukes. (was it nukes, or just a sneak attack? I can't actually remember what you said) He has nuked Genghis to oblivion multiple times over multiple games, but his hatred continues undiminished, and his thirst for vengeance remains unquenched."

As for more serious questions for the FAQ, I'll try and think of them later.

Not sure if this is the type of question you're after but this stumped me when Warlords first came out (aimed at someone first encountering the HOF)...

Q: Are there seperate tables for Warlords and Vanilla versions of Civ IV, or just one table?

A: Just one table.

I have a quick question. What does QMS (Quattromasters) mean? I know of the Jedi Masters, but I never heard of the Quattromasters anywhere else?
That's actually a really good point. When I think QMS, I think QuattroMaster's Scoring system, but now that I think about it, I don't know that's ever been explained outside of HOF staff. We're getting somewhere with this thread already. :lol:

And of course, you're right if you're suggesting an outsider wouldn't know what a Quattromaster is...

"'slug has harboured an irrational hatred of Genghis Khan since his civ 1 days, when he was cruelly and unexpectedly defeated by Mongolian nukes. (was it nukes, or just a sneak attack? I can't actually remember what you said) He has nuked Genghis to oblivion multiple times over multiple games, but his hatred continues undiminished, and his thirst for vengeance remains unquenched."
Not bad. I *will* retell the tale of horror and destruction soon though, as I suspect many others are wondering.

Not sure if this is the type of question you're after but this stumped me when Warlords first came out (aimed at someone first encountering the HOF)...

Q: Are there seperate tables for Warlords and Vanilla versions of Civ IV, or just one table?

A: Just one table.
Great question, although we might actually have to define table at some point, since there's lots of tables in the HOF. A better answer might be "just one set of tables"?

I have a quick question. What does QMS (Quattromasters) mean? I know of the Jedi Masters, but I never heard of the Quattromasters anywhere else?

Always thought it was from the game number: CivIv = Civ Quattro.

Q: Can one game be used to count for several categories?

~

Also, a checklist might be helpful for people who see people talking about Quattromaster and have no clue at first what they mean.

Not that the information isn't there - it is if you look at all the charts - but I happen to personally like lists. I made this for myself not sure if it would be helpful to others or not.


Machiavelli - submit a valid HOF entry for every victory condition
Conquest
Culture
Diplomacy
Domination
Space
Time

Map Quest - submit a valid HOF entry for every map type
Archipelago
Continents
Fractal
Great Plains
Highlands
Ice Age
Inland Sea
Lakes
Oasis
Pangaea
Terra

Inferno - submit a valid HOF entry for every difficulty
Settler
Chieftain
Warlord
Noble
Prince
Monarch
Emperor
Immortal
Deity

Tempi Trophy - submit a valid HOF entry for every speed
Quick
Normal
Epic
Marathon

League of Nations - submit a valid HOF entry for 18 or more of the civilizations (total 24 civs available with Warlords)
America
Arabia
Aztec
Carthage
Celt
China
Egypt
England
France
Germany
Greece
Inca
India
Japan
Korea
Mali
Mongolia
Ottoman
Persia
Rome
Russia
Spain
Viking
Zulu

Gauntlet - submit both a valid major and minor gauntlet
Major Gauntlet
Minor Gauntlet

There already is an automatic checklist in "My Submissions" ;)

I think the scoring system need to be explained. For example, when and how to use each of the following scoring system.

Date QScore
Date QScore Working
Score QScore
Score QScore Working
Gauntlet QScore
Gauntlet QScore Working

The only versions currently acceptable are:

Vanilla 1.61 with version 1.61.008/9 or Warlords 2.00 with version 2.08.01/2 of the HOF mod. Submissions not using the HOF mod are not permitted. The HOF mod must be installed in the "Firaxis Games\Sid Mier's Civilization 4\Mods" folder. 1.61.008 and 2.08.001 will have support discontinued by 12/25, so upgrade ASAP!

-> 1.61.010 and 2.08.003


Beta? What's that all about anyway?
These are nonpermanent "unofficial" tables used time to time to test out mods and patches before legalizing them for the full HOF. A Warlords beta of early HOF mods is concluding soon, and the Beta tables will again be sealed.

It has finished. So I'd remove most info about beta.

General
Every game, whether it makes it onto a table or not, is given a QScore. The overall Quattromasters score is the average of the scores for every category (I.e. Machiavelli, Map Quest, etc). The score for a category is the sum of the best scoring 2 games for each sub-category (I.e. Conquest, Cultural, Diplomatic, etc) divided by the number of sub-categories.

The Quattromasters challenge
Everyone can make an attempt to become Quattromaster. A Quattromaster is someone who has completed these six events: Machiavelli, Map Quest, Inferno, Tempi Trophy, League of Nations and Gauntlet.

The first five events require having at least one published game for respectively every victory condition, allowed map type, difficulty level, game speed and civilization (Only 18 civilizations are needed, so players with Warlords don't have to play every civilization available to them).

The Gauntlet event requires you to submit a valid entry for both a G-Minor and a G-Major. These are competitions regularly organised by the Hall of Fame staff.

Every game, whether it makes it onto a table or not, is given a QScore. The score for a sub-category (for example Cultural in the Machiavelli event) is the sum of the QScore of your best two games in that sub-category. The score for an event is the average of the score for the sub-categories. The overal Quattromasters score is the average of the score for every event, with the Gauntlet event counting twice.

You should put a special note saying that Shuffle maps are accepted in the HoF, but don't count towards QM. That tricked me good...

There already is an automatic checklist in "My Submissions" ;)

Ahhh.... I guess that shows when you log in? Since I had nothing to submit I hadn't registered yet so haven't seen that.

Maybe a shorter list would still be helpul then with just the categories and short explanations so that someone can see what is needed without clicking through every tab?

Q: What is required to become a Quattromaster
A: Completing the Quattromasters challenge requires completion of all 6 sub-events

Machiavelli - submit a valid HOF entry for every victory condition [6]
Map Quest - submit a valid HOF entry for every map type [11]
Inferno - submit a valid HOF entry for every difficulty [9]
Tempi Trophy - submit a valid HOF entry for every speed [4]
League of Nations - submit a valid HOF entry for 18 or more of the civilizations [18]
Gauntlet - submit both a valid major and minor gauntlet [2]

[Total 50 games although a single game can (?) count for several categories]

Still not sure if one game can count as several categories or if 50 games are needed.

Note: words are not mine - I pretty much cut and paste from the website I just combined info from several pages into one list. I promise not to cry if it's decided that a list isn't needed. ;)

I think the scoring system need to be explained. For example, when and how to use each of the following scoring system.

Date QScore
Date QScore Working
Score QScore
Score QScore Working
Gauntlet QScore
Gauntlet QScore Working
I agree with this. This also lends itself to posting more information about how the 'top 2 games' thing works as well.

think the scoring system need to be explained. For example, when and how to use each of the following scoring system.
Date QScore
Date QScore Working
Score QScore
Score QScore Working
Gauntlet QScore
Gauntlet QScore Working

Date Score is always used, except for the score sub-category of machiavelli and the gauntlets.
Score is only used for the score sub-category.
Gauntlet is used for gauntlets only.

Each game has a date and score Qscore, and some games have a Gauntlet Qscore.

The Date score lists the games in that table from earliest to latest date, with score as tiebraker, and gives the best game a score of 100, an above average game a score between 50 and 100, the average game 50 and a below average game a score below 50.

Score does the same but it uses the firaxis score only.
Gauntlet does the same as Date, but doesn't use all games on the table, only the ones submitted during the gauntlet, and valid for the gauntlet.

QScore is such a complex thing to explain, I almost wonder if wouldn't be worth it to switch to a points system instead of a formula....

The only complicated thing of the Qscore IMO is the BaseScore derivation.

For me, all of them are mysterious. But that's OK. I have faith :religion:

:scan:

Having said that, it seems a bit unreasonable that a seriously hard top score at lower levels has a QScore that sucks by comparison with a relatively easy Deity Future Space victory ....

total newbie here, one game accepted so far yay! we talked in this thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=196408) about the 2 games rule for scoring, and whether later, higher scores, replace earlier, lower scores. i may be the only one that didn't want to assume that was true, just popping it here for consideration.

QScore is such a complex thing to explain, I almost wonder if wouldn't be worth it to switch to a points system instead of a formula....

Agreed. But that discussion needs a separate thread. :mischief:

Thanks for the effort, only after reading this thread I have come to understand what is going on. In the introduction I think something is missing. It is something I have inferred from other posters, not read anywhere:

<<Q: What’s the HOF for?

A:
There is a permanent competition called QMS. If you want to compete, your first objective should be to win and submit a number of games covering every map size, every speed …etc…etc. Once you have done that, you have become a Quatromaster, congratulations! The following objective is to be the better Quatromater. For that, you will have to improve your Qscore, either submitting wins for the same game settings that you played that rank higher or either by submitting wins for games with different settings and ranking high… etc…etc

If you prefer, you can simply compete for the best game given certain settings. That’s called the tables…etc…etc…

Yet another way of competing are the Gauntlets… etc…etc>>

The overal Quattromasters score is the average of the score for every event.

The overall Quattromasters score is NOT the average of the score for every event. The Gauntlet event is weighted heavier than the rest of the events. :)
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5029322&postcount=2


I agree that the QScore mechanics need some explaining.
In order to explain QScore, a good solid foundation of the tables and their structure would help. And an example of a table would help in this respect.

Something like (obviously this needs some work/clarification):
There is a HOF Table for each combination of Difficulty, Victory Condition and Map Size. For example, there is a single HOF Table for Diety level, Conquest games played on a Huge map. Game submissions meeting these criteria are entered into this table. (If there are other combinations for actual tables, for example, Score, those would need to be noted. I think that Score is a derived table though...)

QScore explanation would follow.

<Just some thoughts...>
It might be interesting/useful to have a view of the HOF that shows the QScore for all games within the same table (you could provide paged results if returning them all at the same time was too big of a hit). This could be one of the tabs on the HOF main site. Three drop-down combo boxes, Difficulty, Victory, Size. All three are required to hit go...

It might also be useful to combine all the other tabs into a single "How do I stack up?"/"Gimme' a custom view" tab. Other than quick links to customization of the data, I don't see that they provide any additional value as distinct tabs, and may confuse people as to what is an actual table and what's not.
</Just some thoughts...>
The above thoughts could help to clarify to new/random people what a HOF table is, and about QScore. Each could be implemented independently of the other.

I believe the following neds to be explained in addition to what is already on the HOF pages.

Definition of an HOF table
All games of a certain Size/Condition/Difficulty/Speed combination

Calculation of the average used in deriving the Qscores
For each table, only the best game of each player contributes to the average. (At least that is my understanding.)

Listing of the tables on the HoF pages
Only the 10 best games of each tables are listed. No player can have more than two games listed.

Various types of Qscores
- Date Qscore: based on finish date
- Score Qscore: based on score, independent of victory condition
- Gauntlet Qscore: only games of that particular gauntlet contributes to the average.

Some issues regarding Qscore
- The Qscore for a submitted game will evolve over time since the average depends on more recent games in the same table
- Date Qscore for Time Victory needs special explanation
- Some people might be interested in the mathematical formula used to calculate the BaseQScore

Quattromaster rules
- A minimum of one game is required for each subevent.
- A maximum of two games contribute to the score in each subevent.
- A minimum of 18 different civilizations are required to complete the the League of Nations event
- A maximum of 24 different civilizations contribute to the League of Nations total score

Also, a checklist might be helpful for people who see people talking about Quattromaster and have no clue at first what they mean.

Not that the information isn't there - it is if you look at all the charts - but I happen to personally like lists. I made this for myself not sure if it would be helpful to others or not.

Machiavelli - submit a valid HOF entry for every victory condition
Map Quest - submit a valid HOF entry for every map type
Inferno - submit a valid HOF entry for
Tempi Trophy - submit a valid HOF entry for every speed
League of Nations - submit a valid HOF entry for 18 or more of the civilizations (total 24 civs available with Warlords)
Gauntlet - submit both a valid major and minor gauntlet


Very yes!

I've been trying for three or four weeks to figure out what a Quattromaster and these various categories are, and this is the first definition I've seen.

Related to this: Where's the main page for the HOF? hof.civfanatics.net just has two links, one for Civ3, one for Civ4. The Civ4 page, at least, is just tables (with a few links to more tables on the side).

Nowhere (that I can find) is there a definition of what any of these things are, a central location where one can see all the GOTMs, Gauntlets, etc.

Definitions of all these things should exist. The definitions should point to a page that has all the past GOTMs, Gauntlets, and anything else that is defined by you (the staff). All those pages should, in turn, have links back to the definitions page (and perhaps the scores, too.)

Definition of an HOF table
All games of a certain Size/Condition/Difficulty/Speed combination


Even though I knew that speed contributed to the table, I completely missed that in my earlier post.

I still think that a QScore view of the tables is a good idea, and including QScore as a column in the results...

It is confusing that The-Hawk has 200 QScore pts for huge, diety, space race (epic and quick), but his "best" game on any speed (as far as quickest finish is concerned) is only 2nd place (1662 AD, marathon).

Agreed. But that discussion needs a separate thread. :mischief:
There is an alternative. Perhaps I should unveil it and get feedback. :)

________


I just realized I've got 366 old PM's in my inbox. I'm sure there's any number of good questions in there I should collect and put in this thread before I print it out and get busy with the highlighter. :lol:

Here are a couple that I thought could use a little more clarification...

Question: How do I know for sure that my Gauntlet game has been accepted?
Answer: Your entry will appear on the Gauntlet table after it has shown as being accepted in the "My Submissions" section. To verify that it has indeed qualified, just log in, then look at the Gauntlet tab (Major or Minor) that you are submitting for. Select the appropriate Gauntlet number that you submitted for in the drop-down list. If your name appears within the table, your game has been accepted for the Gauntlet. Don't worry if the rest of the table is blank, since competing entries are hidden until the Gauntlet has finished.

Do new Gauntlet entries that have been accepted also show up in the QM checklist page? Might want to annotate that as well.

Question: How do I verify that I have created my game correctly for the Gauntlet?
Answer: There is currently no automated way to verify gauntlet qualification from a starting save. The most important thing to watch for is that you follow the rules stated in the Gauntlet announcement post precisely. It is also a good idea to verify that the HOF mod does not flag the game as illegal within the in-game Victory Settings screen.

I haven't seen any Gauntlets that are HOF-illegal, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Q. Can GOTM's or WOTM's be used in the HOF tables?

I know the answer now but didn't know it at the start - it could be a question in the FAQ.

Example: Okay, there's the first proposed question and answer. Are they worth putting on the website? Is the answer good enough or does it need improvement? no... the answer should start with: "Once upon a time..."

No... the answer should start with: "In the beginning, the Earth was without form..."

IMHO we need something to verify a gauntlet game, because:
you see immediately if a game is HOF-OK by the alerts when you start (or F8)
but if you missed a rival, or select a wrong one by mistake you can't know it until perhaps 200 turns or more if you play continents.
I spent a lot of attempts in gauntlet 8 to discover i forgot JC, and in my last attempt on a fractal map i was sure it was OK only after the replay "movie".

:agree: with the poster above (hopefully no-one else posts while I write this).

Even though this is slightly off topic I would also love to see a way of verifying if the game is eligable for a Gauntlet; even a way of submitting the starting game to verify it the same way we can verify if the game is HOF eligable.

James