I propose we rush-build a library in Pherris on the coming turn. I am not sure, as I have not had time to download the new save, but I am guessing that it is now stuck at pop 2, and that the extra shield gained from the additional unimproved hill is lost to waste. If we rush a library, in 4 turns, it will have access to two flood plains, and will recover that pop point very quickly. It will also begin to generate a decent amount of commerce, which we definately need. The rate at which it produces immortals will not be affected. We will essentially delay the production of that first immortal for 2 turns, while increasing our commerce per turn within the near future, by 2-4, depending on whether we improve those floodplains and corruption.

I apologize for the short notice, but I just noticed this, and it needs to be done immediately to be efficient.

Yes, do it! :whipped:

I voted no.

Not because I disagree with your logic, as usual I think you are right on the mark Eyrei.

What I am wondering is if this topic of Pop Rushing in general should be put to a vote. Some of our citizens have spoke out against it in the early days of our civ, and I feel we may need to establish an overall mandate on the issue.

Bill
Trade Leader

Originally posted by Bill_in_PDX
Some of our citizens have spoke out against it in the early days of our civ, and I feel we may need to establish an overall mandate on the issue.



This is precisely why I put this to a vote. My feelings on pop-rushing are as follows:

1. Should be utilized to produce cultural improvements very early, so to gain the age bonus quickly and expand the borders to prevent annoying settlement building by other civs. The other requirement for this sort of pop-rushing is that the unhappiness penalty will not freeze the growth of the city.

2. Should be used in military emergencies to rush units. The defination of an emergency is normally that the city will likely fall without another defender. An unhappy city is better than no city at all.

3. Should not be used when it requires more than one pop point, unless it is an absolute emergency.

4. Should be used to rush cultural improvements to secure resources and luxuries on the edge of another civs border.

5. Should not be used to rush units in communism, as the draft is a much better option for a military emergency.

so what you're saying eyrei is you'll pop rush just about anytime. personally i never pop rush. pay over-time, yeah.

if we were to pop rush pherris a library now. it would be 20 turns before we were to get back to our current production level. because of corruption, we would probably have to grow to a size 5 before we saw any improvement. from the time of our pop rush to the first twenty turns, our IMMORTAL production would suck. a reduction of 66%? the only way to improve the situation would be to immediately irrigate the flood plain. then we would only have to wait 14 turns with sucky IMMORTAL production to get back to our current level, and then our growth to size 5 would be slightly quicker.

now about this 15 minute poll stuff. it's worse than pop rushing. we can't make a major production decision as a nation in this short time. IMMORTAL production is important RIGHT NOW. we shouldn't hinder our military growth at this point. nor should we ask the citizens to make this decision.

Originally posted by Cyc
so what you're saying eyrei is you'll pop rush just about anytime. personally i never pop rush. pay over-time, yeah.

if we were to pop rush pherris a library now. it would be 20 turns before we were to get back to our current production level. because of corruption, we would probably have to grow to a size 5 before we saw any improvement. from the time of our pop rush to the first twenty turns, our IMMORTAL production would suck. a reduction of 66%? the only way to improve the situation would be to immediately irrigate the flood plain. then we would only have to wait 14 turns with sucky IMMORTAL production to get back to our current level, and then our growth to size 5 would be slightly quicker.

now about this 15 minute poll stuff. it's worse than pop rushing. we can't make a major production decision as a nation in this short time. IMMORTAL production is important RIGHT NOW. we shouldn't hinder our military growth at this point. nor should we ask the citizens to make this decision.

I will check these numbers when I get home in 20 minutes or so, but with all do respect Cyc, your analysis of the effects of rushing a library in Pherris is flawed. First, it will take aout 13 turns to get back to pop 2, not 20, as in 4 turns it will have access to a flood plain. Also, I believe the 5th shield that is produced by the second population point is lost to corruption anyway. Pherris will produce just as quickly at one population than at two, with its current terrain improvements. It will slow immortal productio down by 2 turns, and in the long run, it will allow it to produce much faster. Were it to keep producing immortals, in 23 turns it would be pop 2 again, producing almost no commerce and not growing. We would have 2 immortals, and another in 7 turns. Now, if we rush a library, in 23 turns it will be pop 3, producing another 2 commerce(at least, more if we build a couple roads), we will have 2 immortals, and another in 9 turns. It will also grow to pop 4 in another twenty turns, even if we do not irrigate the flood plains. If we do, it will only be another 20 turns before it is pop 5. Read this carefully, please, I don't think I can explain in any more specific a manner. The benefits most definately outweigh the damage you think it will do.

This makes no sense,we're against razing enemy cities but wiping out our own population is okay?????
Although your numbers sound good you seem to forget about the inherited resentment and hence increased corruption.you don't even mention the fact that some of these citizens that leave will bad mouth us and people will be less willing to come and settle.
I don't agree with pop rushing at all.To me it's an admission of failure.Wait till we can buy production.

I voted no, even though I would generally be in favor of limited pop-rushing of libraries, for the same reasons you mentioned (culture bonus, borders). But during this present war, I think anything that could slow our military production would be counterproductive. I guess I would qualify my vote, since I haven't seen the latest save game either, and might vote yes after further study if in fact production would not be effected. I move to allow more time for further analysis.

I haven't looked at Cyc's or Eyrei's numbers too closely but here we have a situation where the cultural leader and domestic leader have differing opinions. Who has the constitutional right to make the descision?

From the constitution, section E:

Point 5: Cultural Leader: Make's decission's regarding Expansion ,construction of cultural city improvement's. Governors are responsible for individual cities in a Province. The Cultural leader can override gouvernor's decission's for the construction of cultural improvement's.

Point 8: Domestic leader: make's decission's about settler allocation ,wonder building ,city queue's etc.Is the gouvernor of the first province.decide's on the Science/Lux/tax rate's.maintain's the budget of the nation.

Looks like it was Cyc's call whether to build the library or not. his descision could have been over-ridden by the President with "enough support from the cabinet," or by the military department:

Point 3: Military Leader: Make's on military actions, defense, and (If war has been declared) war time actions. Reports military decisions to the President. Can override Governors on production issues during time of invasion. Takes over from the President in times of mobilization. (martial law)

I think our domestic leader over-stepped his constitutional authority on this one.

Further reading of the constitution reveals that governors are also involved in deciding city production. From the constitution, section E:

Point 9: Governors: Elected by the people to control production in cities of their province.

Also from the constitution:

Section H:Gouvernor's:

point 1: A gouvernor control's and decide's over 5 city's.
point 2: The Domestic leader is also the gouvernor over the first 5 city's. (the core city's)

Since Pherris is not one of the first five cities SKILORD is governor of Pherris.

I think our constitution could more clearly define who actually decides what is to be built in each city. The Presidential over-ride is also quite vague (just what is "enough cabinet support"?).

I think it is important to address these issues because much time is used in the turn chat to decide what to build next in a city or what to switch production to. With two days between turn chats there is ample time to hash this out so that everyone knows what the build descisions are.

Originally posted by donsig
From the constitution, section E:

Point 5: Cultural Leader: Make's decission's regarding Expansion ,construction of cultural city improvement's. Governors are responsible for individual cities in a Province. The Cultural leader can override gouvernor's decission's for the construction of cultural improvement's.

Point 8: Domestic leader: make's decission's about settler allocation ,wonder building ,city queue's etc.Is the gouvernor of the first province.decide's on the Science/Lux/tax rate's.maintain's the budget of the nation.

Looks like it was Cyc's call whether to build the library or not. his descision could have been over-ridden by the President with "enough support from the cabinet," or by the military department:

Point 3: Military Leader: Make's on military actions, defense, and (If war has been declared) war time actions. Reports military decisions to the President. Can override Governors on production issues during time of invasion. Takes over from the President in times of mobilization. (martial law)

I think our domestic leader over-stepped his constitutional authority on this one.

I am pretty sure that the spirit of the section regarding the cultural minister's power to make decisions regarding cultural improvements is lost in the current wording. That clause was meant to mean that the cultural leader could override current produciton choices if he wanted a cultural building because some of our territory had been culturally taken over. As far as the military leaders power during invasions, I do not think this yet qualifies as an invasion, as the only units in our territory when this decision was made were a few american warriors, one of which was a conscript, and Pherris was in no danger.

As domestic leader, it IS my job to make sure cities do not stagnate and fall short of their potential. Pherris was stuck at size two until it built a cultural improvement. Immortal production was slowed by 2 turns; a small price to pay for an improving economy. Also, a poll was posted, and though it was posted on short notice, the results are pretty clear. I believe my reasoning was sound, and this decision was best for the empire.

Finally, unless we do something very strange while defining our provinces, Pherris will be part of the first province, regardless of when it was built.

As far as the constitution goes we can only go by what is written not by what we think was intended. If you think the current wording of the constitution does not reflect the intnet then it should be changed. In the mean time we must go with what is written. And what is written is that the domestic leader "make's decission's about settler allocation ,wonder building ,city queue's etc.Is the gouvernor of the first province.decide's on the Science/Lux/tax rate's.maintain's the budget of the nation." It is also written that:

"Section H:Gouvernor's:

point 1: A gouvernor control's and decide's over 5 city's.
point 2: The Domestic leader is also the gouvernor over the first 5 city's. (the core city's)"

Pherris was not one of the first five cities. Eyrei, until changes are make, you are not the governor of Pherris! The wording is clear.

I do not think it was so important to expand Pherris's borders. The main reason for building Pherris was to have access to iron and a place to retrain our proto-immortals. We are in no way dependant on the production on Pherris for immortals. Was there a mandate from the military department saying they were desperate to up the immortal production in Pherris?

As for the poll, it currently shows a 14 -7 vote in favor of whipping the library. It was 11-7 after the turn chat and even closer before the turn chat. Votes were acutally made during turn chat. Even at 14-7 there are less than one third of the population voting. Hardly a mandate. Talk about your silent majorities! :rolleyes:

Finally, I am sure you are doing what you think is best eyrei. That is no reason to usurp the authority of other governemnt officials.

Originally posted by donsig
As far as the constitution goes we can only go by what is written not by what we think was intended. If you think the current wording of the constitution does not reflect the intnet then it should be changed. In the mean time we must go with what is written. And what is written is that the domestic leader "make's decission's about settler allocation ,wonder building ,city queue's etc.Is the gouvernor of the first province.decide's on the Science/Lux/tax rate's.maintain's the budget of the nation." It is also written that:

"Section H:Gouvernor's:

point 1: A gouvernor control's and decide's over 5 city's.
point 2: The Domestic leader is also the gouvernor over the first 5 city's. (the core city's)"

Pherris was not one of the first five cities. Eyrei, until changes are make, you are not the governor of Pherris! The wording is clear.

I do not think it was so important to expand Pherris's borders. The main reason for building Pherris was to have access to iron and a place to retrain our proto-immortals. We are in no way dependant on the production on Pherris for immortals. Was there a mandate from the military department saying they were desperate to up the immortal production in Pherris?

As for the poll, it currently shows a 14 -7 vote in favor of whipping the library. It was 11-7 after the turn chat and even closer before the turn chat. Votes were acutally made during turn chat. Even at 14-7 there are less than one third of the population voting. Hardly a mandate. Talk about your silent majorities! :rolleyes:

Finally, I am sure you are doing what you think is best eyrei. That is no reason to usurp the authority of other governemnt officials.

I am quite sure of the meaning of that section of the constitution regarding the cultural department, as I helped The Duck of Flanders write it. Unfortunately, he seems to have oversimplified that part of it. Also, as far as provinces go, it seems silly that the first province would be Fox's Nest, Eyr, Shailenogha, Khatovar and PDX, as Pherris is right in the middle of them. Hopefully, we can define these soon to avoid further confusion. Currently, there is not a clause in the constitution regarding pop-rushing, and this needs to be rectified ASAP. I did not rush that library to improve immortal production, but to improve our economy.

For more information regarding the powers of the cultural department as far as overriding governors and/or the domestic leader's decisions, see this thread :

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19139

Also, as far as provinces go, it seems silly that the first province would be Fox's Nest, Eyr, Shailenogha, Khatovar and PDX, as Pherris is right in the middle of them.

I agree. I started a thread way back when with a screen shot illustrating the silliness of it all. Nothing has been formally changed. Lots of talk no action.



I did not rush that library to improve immortal production, but to improve our economy.

We were on the brink of a golden age with the tax rate at 100%. Are you seriously suggesting the economy needed help?



Hopefully, we can define these soon to avoid further confusion. Currently, there is not a clause in the constitution regarding pop-rushing, and this needs to be rectified ASAP.

Unfortunately, as a nation, we've been good at talking about changes but poor in implementing any.



I am quite sure of the meaning of that section of the constitution regarding the cultural department, as I helped The Duck of Flanders write it. Unfortunately, he seems to have oversimplified that part of it.

The constitution is a set of rules for our government to operate under. We must go by the rules as written. If changes are needed let's make them. Until the rules are changed we must follow them.

Our trade leader has provided the proper example in this regard. He was the senior cabinet member present at a turn chat but since he wasn't in the official COC he did not run the game. Obviously he should be in the COC but he followed the rules as written and made the problem known so it could be rectified.

Originally posted by donsig
[B]



We were on the brink of a golden age with the tax rate at 100%. Are you seriously suggesting the economy needed help?




The economy always needs help.:)

The main problem I saw, was that Pherris was absolutely stagnant, and that by sacrificing two turns of production, we could rectify that. I think that is a fair trade off.

Unfortunately, as a nation, we've been good at talking about changes but poor in implementing any.

Probably because everyone is scared that they will be crucified for taken action.;) (joking)

The economy always needs help.

An admirable position for the domestic advisor to take. However, the country would have been fine withour rushing or even building that library at that time.

The main problem I saw, was that Pherris was absolutely stagnant, and that by sacrificing two turns of production, we could rectify that. I think that is a fair trade off.

Not all of us agree with you. You ignored those of us who disagreed and you ignored the constitution to push your agenda.

Probably because everyone is scared that they will be crucified for taken action. (joking)

I think the reason is that it takes a cabinet vote to change the constitution and the cabinet cannot get together all at the same time to make a quick vote on anything.

As for 'crucifying' anyone I realy hope that fear is not keeping people from participating in the events before us. And I certainly hope that no one (especially eyrei) thinks they are being 'crucified'. While I have taken issue with this particular action on his part I do not mean to imply that eyrei has been doing a poor job.:)

Originally posted by donsig


An admirable position for the domestic advisor to take. However, the country would have been fine withour rushing or even building that library at that time.



Not all of us agree with you. You ignored those of us who disagreed and you ignored the constitution to push your agenda.



I think the reason is that it takes a cabinet vote to change the constitution and the cabinet cannot get together all at the same time to make a quick vote on anything.

As for 'crucifying' anyone I realy hope that fear is not keeping people from participating in the events before us. And I certainly hope that no one (especially eyrei) thinks they are being 'crucified'. While I have taken issue with this particular action on his part I do not mean to imply that eyrei has been doing a poor job.:)

I didn't ignore anybody as far as rushing that library was concerned. Just because I did not bend to the will of those that disagreed with me, does not mean I ignored them. In the end, the majority seemed to agree with my reasoning, though I realize the poll was rather short notice.

I really was joking with the being 'crucified' thing. Although, I do seem to take a lot of flack anytime I do something.

I did not ignore the constitution, I simply interpreted it differently, because of other information I had.

Rushing the library did not hurt the nation in any way.

In the end, the majority seemed to agree with my reasoning, though I realize the poll was rather short notice.

What majority? The 14-7 majority in the poll? According to the census we have 69 citizens. A majority would be 35. Or do you mean that a majority of the cabinet now supports the whipping of the library? There certainly was not a majority even present at the turn chat.

There are only about thirty citizens who regularly vote.

If less than a majority are even voting then how do you know that a majority now support you?

But the majority of those who voted do. It's not Eyrei's fault if they don't vote, or if they've left the game.

I support Eyrei's decision completely. Without that Libary Pherris won't be as good as an Immortal factory it will be with the growth. However, the flood plain is a priority at the moment for growth, but after that we should be able to get sheilds for building soldiers. And we need Soldier factories now, esp. with the offensive in America.

Because it was whiped over a domestic issue (production and growth) it was within Eyrei's right to request the whip.

I support Eyrei's decision completely. Without that Libary Pherris wouldn't have been as good an Immortal factory as it is now. And we need Soldier factories NOW, esp. with the offensive in America.
Because it was whiped over a domestic issue (production and growth) it was within Eyrei's right to request the whip.


Falcon02, first you say we needed the library for military reasons ('we need Soldier factories NOW') then you say it was eyrei's right to request the library be whipped because it was 'a domestic issue (production and growth)'. the latter isn't even with-in the domestic leader's domain ACCORDING TO THE CONSTITUTION:

Point 8: Domestic leader: make's decission's about settler allocation ,wonder building ,city queue's etc.Is the gouvernor of the first province.decide's on the Science/Lux/tax rate's.maintain's the budget of the nation.

The constitution plainly gives the governor authority to make production descisions in his or her cities with provisions for presidential and cabinet over-rulings. The governor was never consulted in this case because no one would even acknowledge there was a governor other than eyrei!

Falcon02 you are free to support eyrei's action (as military deputy and/or citizen) but please do not argue that the choice was his to make when it clearly was not.

Anyway, I am getting discouraged about participating in this whole endeavor. I have tried to make constructive suggestions and spark constructive debates but very little of the discussion that is done beforehand is turned into action at the turn chat. I have now tried to show how the concepts behind the constitution are not clearly defined in that document.

And what do I have to show for it all? An eyrei-donsig debate of huge proportions that is getting nowhere. :crazyeye:

it was growth and production with military concequences.

Anyway, he put it into the hands of the people, rather late however which made the poll near useless, sorry to say. But we really can't have a poll EVERYTIME we rush build. The purpose of the rush justifies the people who have the most say, IMHO. In this case it was Domestic, (growth), which I supported because of the potential for Military benifits (production).

It seemed to me that you seemed to be more arguing that Eyrei DIDN'T have the power to make such a recommendation. (since he didn't implement it GF did (I'm not trying to pass blame here), with majority support in the chat) I don't remember you stating you wanted the Constitution to be more specific, which I can understand. However, a 10 page detailed document that covers everything could discourage some from joining because they don't want THAT much to read.

it was growth and production with military concequences

Yes, it was, neither of which makes it the domestic leader's call. I do not know how to make my point any clearer than to quote the domestic leader's duties according to the constitution. Here it is again:

Point 8: Domestic leader: make's decission's about settler allocation ,wonder building ,city queue's etc.Is the gouvernor of the first province.decide's on the Science/Lux/tax rate's.maintain's the budget of the nation.

'Growth and production' issues are not the listed among the domestic leader's duties. If you all think they should be then rewrite the constitution!

Point 9: Governors: Elected by the people to control production in cities of their province.

And The Domestic Leader is the governor of the first province. I know Skilord is now the governor over Pherris, but at the time Skilord was unavalible and we were talking so much about Geographic providences that build order got essentially thrown out. But since the Geographic provinces has taken longer to decide that was expected Eyrei has said that the original plan will be what's used until the geographic lay out is planned. But once again Eyrei didn't FORCE anyone to do it. He suggested it and then most people agreed with the whip.

By the fact that it wasn't for a cultural purpose only shows that the Cultural leader wasn't where "the bill stops"

But since the Geographic provinces has taken longer to decide that was expected Eyrei has said that the original plan will be what's used until the geographic lay out is planned.

One of us has a serious misunderstanding about how constitutions work. I brought up the concept of gepgraphical provinces well before the governor election was decided. There was much talk about geographical provinces but no formal action taken by the cabinet. How this debate came to equal a governor without a province I'll never know. Since no formal action was taken on the proposal we go back to the constitution and do what it says we don't leave everyting up in the air. Why not? Because it leads to ambiguities in the division of authority which lead to endless debates like this! And I know I'm prolonging the debate but I cannot let your remarks go by unanswered. We do not need eyrei to 'ok' going back to the 'original plan'!

But once again Eyrei didn't FORCE anyone to do it. He suggested it and then most people agreed with the whip.

Most people did not agree with it unless you call a 5-4 poll vote (out of 69 possible votes) 'most people'. Go back and read the chat log.

By the fact that it wasn't for a cultural purpose only shows that the Cultural leader wasn't where "the bill stops"

Two points:

1) The library wasn't for scientific purposes since we're on 0% science rate. It was for expansion an area the constitution gives to the cultural leader. Does the cultural leader have the authority to veto a cultural building or is his duty merely to point out when we DO need to build for culture?

2) If the library was for military purposes (an immortal factory) then the military leader (deputy?) could have called for it and the current city production over-ridden with 'enough' cabinet support.

I am not so worried about the descision that was made but the way in which it was made. If the military department had called for the library and then gotten cabinet support for the change then none of this constitutional debate would have happened!

Bravo Donsig. All of it is well stated. I feel for you in that no one seems to hear what you've said. Personally, i am very impressed with the debate so far and feel i need to make a couple of points. The Province consideration - debate went on for quite a while with GOOD citizen interest. There were glossy 8 by 10's left and right with colors and arrows, and a wide variety of opinions. but nothing was ever done with it because eyrei didn't need it. But if eyrei wakes up in the morning of the chat deciding he wants to pop rush an improvement that might not sit well with everyone, he can railroad it through on greased wheels. And nobody cares. He's done it all game. And nobody sees. Well, maybe some of us. Sorry eyrei, the time has come. you are an excellent politician, I guess i just don't like politicians. Or maybe I like Democracy too much. I think there were two strong points in there. Yes, let's bring the provincial boundries discussion to fruition and let's stop railroading issues.

I brought up the concept of gepgraphical provinces well before the governor election was decided. There was much talk about geographical provinces but no formal action taken by the cabinet. How this debate came to equal a governor without a province I'll never know. Since no formal action was taken on the proposal we go back to the constitution and do what it says we don't leave everyting up in the air. Why not? Because it leads to ambiguities in the division of authority which lead to endless debates like this! And I know I'm prolonging the debate but I cannot let your remarks go by unanswered. We do not need eyrei to 'ok' going back to the 'original plan'!

Agreed. but sadly the first 5 rule was put aside, by nearly everybody, until you brought it back up (and it was good you brought it back up) since the geographic rulings were taking so long. Skilord asked for his province to be defined, since we're planning on geographical ones. And so he waited, for the decision.

Most people did not agree with it unless you call a 5-4 poll vote (out of 69 possible votes) 'most people'. Go back and read the chat log.

The reasoning for that is that Eyrei wanted at least some sort of vote, he apologized for the late notice, and told me he will likely never do it again. But, he wanted some voice from the people, sadly it wasn't conclusive, and couldn't have been because of the time. And with your 64 vote point. If there's enough time allowed for voting 1-2 days and more (in this case there wasn't) then the majority that voted (no matter the total of registered users) win. Because many people aren't active in the game, or leave the game in the middle.

Below is from the Chat, I tried to cut down the size and not to leave out any qoutes important and related. If you find qoutes from the chat that I've missed and help prove your point, post them.
<eyrei> the main change is library in Pherris, to be rushed
[Cut]
<sike> you will get knifed one day eyrei
<eyrei> hehe
<eyrei> it is for the good of phoenatica
[cut]
<sike> worthless poll
<eyrei> library in pherris poll
<theGreyFox> 8 to 6 :)
<eyrei> ihehe
<BenjaminMiller> ah, library.
<Immortal-Logging> 9-6 now, including me
<eyrei> it will be good
<BenjaminMiller> gotta love tipping the scales at the last moment :)
[cut]
<eyrei> more culture
<sike> your manner of play is low handed eyrei
[cut]
<sike> libraries are good
<eyrei> i honestly did not think of it until today
<sike> not the quick poll
<eyrei> i do apologize
[cut]
<eyrei> it was not intentional
[cut]
<sike> sure
[cut]
<sike> yer gonna pop eyr too?
<eyrei> no
[cut (long time till actual event)]
<theGreyFox> I’m gonna Rush the Library now
<eyrei> ok
<sike> keep spearman in eyr


Cyc (sike) never made any true complaint saying not to do it. He insulted eyrei, assumably in jest, and a made clear complaint about the lateness of the poll. But not a clear one on the Libary, if he had you might have a case. And while I'm going over the log, I see NO ONE, make a clear compliant about the Library. Everyone that voiced a clear opinion seems to be showing support, and cyc never protested.

If cyc had complained, you might have a point, but he didn't.

Also, the Cultural leader's job is to INCREASE our cultural value, that's why he has those responcibilitis..

"The Cultural leader can override gouvernor's decission's for the construction of cultural improvement's. "

This clause is for the point that the Cultural leader can tell a governor to stop building a wall, courthouse, etc. to build a cultural improvement.

Any Cultural leader who vetoed the building of a cultural improvement, based on "cultural" reasons (his territory"), rather than the practical would be likely impeached, because it wouldn't make sence.

BTW: I don't think either of us have a misunderstanding on how the Consitution works, we just differ on the interpretation.

I'm tempted to stop this, but like you, I can't leave things unawnsered that I disagree with, esp. once I've enter the argument. Before I actually enter it, it's easier to ignore.

It's a terrible endless debate but I must go on for my country!

but sadly the first 5 rule was put aside, by nearly everybody,

We just can't 'put aside' part of the constitution! Section D, point 3 outlines the procedure for a 'rule change'. Even that clause is subject to interpretation since it is not clearly stated whether the cabinet or the citizens vote on the rule change!

Cyc has really cut to the chase here and perhaps I should put aside the constitutional arguments for a bit.

First of all I don't see sike/Cyc insulting eyrei nor do I recall that happening. (I was in the chat room at the time. I try to keep my comments to a minimum while there since I am a mere citizen.) I took Cyc's 'knife' remark as his way of warning eyrei of the political fallout that would occur one day if he persists in pushing his own agenda through. And, yes, I have noticed that before this particular incident. I still see it in eyrei's insistance on building a barracks in Eyr. He is governor of Eyr and it is his choice to pick what is built though I do disagree with him in this instance. If he insists on building the barracks in Eyr next then he would do well to get the backing of General Charis and make his descision public well before the turn chat so any objections can be raised beforehand and dealt with so other matters can be attended to. That would certainly preclude any debate (constitutional or otherwise) after the fact.

Just to clarify (i hate explaining my jokes), the "knifed" comment was in reference to Julius Caesar's demise. I thought at the time it fit. Althought the clip from the chat didn't clearly show it, my problem wasn't with the library, it was the manner with which our Domestic Leader handled the issue

Originally posted by donsig
I still see it in eyrei's insistance on building a barracks in Eyr. He is governor of Eyr and it is his choice to pick what is built though I do disagree with him in this instance.

I changed my mind on this due to the recomendations of several citizens and cabinet members, and new information regarding the military situation to the south. This was posted in the thread I opened about the garrison in Fox's Nest.

The Province consideration - debate went on for quite a while with GOOD citizen interest. There were glossy 8 by 10's left and right with colors and arrows, and a wide variety of opinions. but nothing was ever done with it because eyrei didn't need it. But if eyrei wakes up in the morning of the chat deciding he wants to pop rush an improvement that might not sit well with everyone, he can railroad it through on greased wheels. And nobody cares. He's done it all game. And nobody sees. Well, maybe some of us. Sorry eyrei, the time has come. you are an excellent politician, I guess i just don't like politicians. Or maybe I like Democracy too much. I think there were two strong points in there. Yes, let's bring the provincial boundries discussion to fruition and let's stop railroading issues.

I am not sure what you are basing any of this on, and I am not sure why you take this so personally. You seem to be one of a very few that believe this. You say 'nobody sees'. Maybe they simply see no problem with it. The next time I want to pop-rush something, I intend to post the poll immediately after the last turn. If that is not good enough for you, I don't really know what to say.

Maybe we need to revise and elaborate on the constitution. For the time being, however, I do not intend to be hamstrung by an ambiguous document. In my opinion, pop-rushing, regardless of the situation, should be in the hands of the domestic department (the domestic leader and the governors). A poll should be opened at least 24 hours before the turns are to be played. Would someone please turn this into a viable amendment that the cabinet can vote on, as I am sure if I do it, it will turn into an extension of this debate?

Finally, I am getting really tired of being told I violated the constitution every time I do something. I am generally very cooperative with the other departments, and have only this once done something mostly on my own. It is debatable that it was within my power, but there was also nothing telling me it was beyond my power. Considering very few can argue that my action to rush that library was a mistake for the empire, so I would hope that my promise to follow the correct protocols next time should be enough to end this debate.

thank you eyrei for helping me with my point. you quoted both donsig and i in your statement. he was talking about the barracks in eyr and i had definitely stated what my statement was about at the end of it. you, on the other hand talk about pop rushing and the constitutionality of it and how you will not be hamstrung by a poorly written document. it's all double talk. if you had really wanted to address what i as Cultural Minister was talking about, you would have dropped your power issue of pop rushing and my veto attempt of the library days ago. do you even remember what we talked about originally? does it matter? you've made your statement and now you don't want to address the original concern because you've had the debate twisted into a different issue. fine. lets drop it. it's really not worth our time.

Originally posted by Cyc
But if eyrei wakes up in the morning of the chat deciding he wants to pop rush an improvement that might not sit well with everyone, he can railroad it through on greased wheels. ... Yes, let's bring the provincial boundries discussion to fruition and let's stop railroading issues.

Again, Cyc, I am not sure what you are talking about, and it seems the double talk is coming from you. I directly addressed donsig's concern about Eyr's production of a barracks rather than a spearman, as I had already stated in another thread that I actually agreed with him on that.

You mentioned pop-rushing in your post! That is why I addressed it again.:confused:

Further, I already stated my position on provincial boundaries, and agreed Skilord should begin governing Pherris and Civanatoria, as they are the 6th and 7th cities in another thread.

It seems to me that you have become unreasonably obsessed with damaging my reputation.:mad: Do you want my job? I am beginning to think that is the problem here, not my 'railroading' of issues. This is becoming ridiculous, and I am sure it does not sit well with the citizenry.

. Originally posted by eyrei
I directly addressed donsig's concern about Eyr's production of a barracks rather than a spearman, as I had already stated in another thread that I actually agreed with him on that.

Actually, my proposal was a bit more involved eyrei. I propose Eyr switch from a barracks to a spearman now. The spearman would be done in 3 turns. That unit would then go to defend Fox Next. After building the spearman Eyr should build a settler. While that is being built the immortal in Pherris should start towards Fox Nest. The immortal can arrive in 7 turns (it must wait for the Pherris spearman to finish in 2 turns). By then the settler in Eyr is almost done so the spearman (or even the warrior currently in Fox Nest) goes back to Eyr to escort the settler to the NW territory to found a city in order to put down the barbarian activity that cost us two workers.

My proposal is like a package deal that tries to accomplish two things (beef up the capitol's defenses and snuff out the NW barbarians). Eyrei's thread is about part of the proposal (beefing up Fox Nest's defenses) and only addresses part of that (eyrei is silent in that thread about transferring the immortal currently in Pherris).

What does the building of a barracks accomplish now?

What does the military department think about all of this?

Originally posted by donsig


Actually, my proposal was a bit more involved eyrei. I propose Eyr switch from a barracks to a spearman now. The spearman would be done in 3 turns. That unit would then go to defend Fox Next. After building the spearman Eyr should build a settler. While that is being built the immortal in Pherris should start towards Fox Nest. The immortal can arrive in 7 turns (it must wait for the Pherris spearman to finish in 2 turns). By then the settler in Eyr is almost done so the spearman (or even the warrior currently in Fox Nest) goes back to Eyr to escort the settler to the NW territory to found a city in order to put down the barbarian activity that cost us two workers.

My proposal is like a package deal that tries to accomplish two things (beef up the capitol's defenses and snuff out the NW barbarians). Eyrei's thread is about part of the proposal (beefing up Fox Nest's defenses) and only addresses part of that (eyrei is silent in that thread about transferring the immortal currently in Pherris).

What does the building of a barracks accomplish now?

What does the military department think about all of this?

Ahh. I am getting a little confused here. I just posted a poll, and unfortunately left out the settler option, thinking Eyr was to build units for a while. I would prefer that Khatovar make the settlers, as it has pretty low produciton, and is perfectly suited for that. Eyr, once it is allowed to grow, should have a pretty high production. I will see if one of the mods can add the settler option to the poll. As far as moving units, that is completely up to the military department, as I have enough on my hands right now.

Pherris is in my province as the constitution stands right now. and i support the rush build of this improvement greatly. sounds great.

libraries are good