View Full Version : Term 7 Domestic Thread


Robi D
Jan 31, 2007, 04:21 AM
Here is the Domestic Thread for turn 7. This is where i will keep you up to date with the situation in our cities. For a start here is the f1 screen with a full run down of our cities

http://img400.imageshack.us/img400/439/turn121f1screenwn4.th.jpg (http://img400.imageshack.us/my.php?image=turn121f1screenwn4.jpg)

robboo
Jan 31, 2007, 07:51 PM
Kind of a domestic issue..

Are there any religions left besides Islam. I think due to the happiness issues we may have to make this a priority now.

Robi D
Jan 31, 2007, 10:27 PM
Nope Islam is the only one left. Also we can't get too obsessed with it because there are a lot other techs we also need. We are just going to have to find other means to deal with it.

robboo
Feb 01, 2007, 07:55 AM
Well we could...."steal" a religous city. :mischief:

I think a Piffle one would suit us fine dont you.

Love
Feb 01, 2007, 09:07 AM
yes... like robboos idea, just make a army of war elephants and storm piffles holy city...

BCLG100
Feb 01, 2007, 10:10 AM
why build war elephants when its just as easy for us to grab cossacks?

Love
Feb 01, 2007, 10:19 AM
When???

What time is it :dubious: ??? (ad)

Robi D
Feb 01, 2007, 09:06 PM
When???

What time is it :dubious: ??? (ad)

By the time we would get elephants built to meaningful numbers we will have Cossaks at our disposal, its 150 AD ny the way:)

Love
Feb 02, 2007, 03:44 AM
What era????

Man im soooo dont know the time and still im a citizien...

BCLG100
Feb 02, 2007, 10:00 AM
Are we going to try and do a mass upgrade of horses to cossaks or a mass build of cossacks?

if we run some great merchants about 50 turns before we aim to discover MT then we can send them off and grab enough gold to do a mass upgrade.

Love
Feb 02, 2007, 11:56 AM
How long does it need to take til we have cossacks (in turns, beakons)

Robi D
Feb 02, 2007, 08:13 PM
Here are some more screenshots

First Aloha, now a size 6 city
http://img472.imageshack.us/img472/7361/t122alohacityru1.th.jpg (http://img472.imageshack.us/my.php?image=t122alohacityru1.jpg)

On the trades scene, we can trade Piffle Monotheism, the other techs in our row can be traded to Loco, we have nothing to trade Innovia at the moment
http://img472.imageshack.us/img472/1125/t122tradeshc0.th.jpg (http://img472.imageshack.us/my.php?image=t122tradeshc0.jpg)

Here is the tech tree
http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/8087/t122techtree1rp3.th.jpg (http://img201.imageshack.us/my.php?image=t122techtree1rp3.jpg)http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/6393/t122techtree2hf4.th.jpg (http://img527.imageshack.us/my.php?image=t122techtree2hf4.jpg)

And finally a satellite image of Aloha. The red dots are future cities, they are not exact but just a rough guide. Basically the cities are divided into 3 groups.
Our core cities, which will be the engine room of our nation. With the secondary cities, they will be further out, but safe from attack. I think these should be focused on commerce. The Military Frontier cities will as the name suggests be the front line of our nation. They should be focused on building military units and cliaming any stray resources.
http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/2390/t122satelittesv4.th.jpg (http://img201.imageshack.us/my.php?image=t122satelittesv4.jpg)

Finally to add to the discussions about the ivory, there is furs just north of Privet which also provide happiness which would be useful in getting.

Kuningas
Feb 02, 2007, 09:32 PM
I don't see any satellite images.

Robi D
Feb 02, 2007, 10:55 PM
The one at the bottom is, it comes up for me

Kuningas
Feb 02, 2007, 11:32 PM
Could DM explain?

Turn 121:
+69 :science: +80%
Music in 4 turns (573/858).

Turn 122:
Music in 3 turns (657/858).

657 - 573 = 84. 84 beakers in not anywhere near 69 beakers.
Is there +20% bpt for each known prerequisite tech? Then we would have got +40% bpt when researching Music if we would have picked Drama beforehand :(

Robi D
Feb 02, 2007, 11:40 PM
Could DM explain?



657 - 573 = 84. 84 beakers in not anywhere near 69 beakers.
Is there +20% bpt for each known prerequisite tech? Then we would have got +40% bpt when researching Music if we would have picked Drama beforehand :(

Hmmm, thats a good question i would need to have a look around the war acadamy. I know there is a bonus if you know someone who already has the tech, i guess its possible you get a bonus for having more than one of the pre req techs, there is certainly evidence that is the case if so we might want to look at future research and see if it worthwhile or not doing more than one pre req for a tech.


And i'm attaching the satellite image from the forums so you should be able to see it now:)

Robi D
Feb 02, 2007, 11:56 PM
Well that was easy enough:)

The full article can be found here (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/tech_research.php)

but here is the relevant part

Calculating the Prerequisites modifier
1) Start with 1. If the technology does NOT have a minimum requirement (i.e., the starting techs = Fishing, The Wheel, Agriculture, Hunting, Mysticism, Mining), then use 1 AS the modifier.

2) Add 0.2 to 1) if a Technology has a MINIMUM Requirement that the player has met. Note: Even if a tech has MANY MANDATORY PREREQUISITES, it will still only give you a boost of 1.2 because you MUST have all those prerequisites to research the tech. (IOW, the minimum requirement IS all of those prerequisites.)

3) Add 0.2 to 2) for EACH ADDITIONAL OPTIONAL Prerequisite that the player has met.

Requirements modifier = 1 + (0.2 * MINIMUM Req. met) + (0.2 * # of Optional Prereq. met)

So there you go, you get 20% for having a mandatory pre req, even if more that one but you get another 20% for each optional pre req that is know. The article is definately worth reading

Kuningas
Feb 03, 2007, 09:04 AM
That's good to know. Loco's Theology is very valuable, we would get 1.4 bonus when we research tech Paper.

BCLG100
Feb 03, 2007, 11:39 AM
I thought this was a fairly known fact, it gives it away for instance in the opening screen where it says about not neglecting older technologies and beelining :)

Love
Feb 03, 2007, 12:29 PM
If weire about to get cossacks i suggest we do horseback riding immediatly!

Kuningas
Feb 04, 2007, 04:23 AM
There is not many techs with 40% bonus, most have 20% and only one has bonus of 60% Writing.

I agree about HBR which brings to a question. What shall we research next?
I prefer Drama/Paper.

Kuningas
Feb 04, 2007, 04:37 AM
We also could adopt Slavery. I think each city must at least whip Granary asap.

To not use banned exploit I would not whip in cities with production modifiers (forges etc). If I recall Dave asked about the bug and it got banned.

Robi D
Feb 04, 2007, 05:12 AM
Do you think it would be worthwhile taking into account the extra turn of anarchy and lost population.

Edit as for research, it would be good to fill in archery and HBR, since we will be able to get longbows soon and we need HBR for our UU.
We can trade for archery although i don't think it worth it for 1 turn of research and HBR is only 3 turns when i checked a while ago so it might be only 2 now.

Apart from those i would do paper

BCLG100
Feb 04, 2007, 06:41 AM
iirc correctly that exploit wasnt banned in this game but merely stated so everyone knew about it.

robboo
Feb 04, 2007, 06:44 AM
paper..get maps those will be important. And it will tell us if our "friends" at Piffle are serious about attacking Epsilon. If they want us to attack Epsilon they should have no problem giving us a map. Honestly..we dont have anything to hide BUT if we meet Epsilons in their map...we can see what they have been hiding in the relations screen.

Archery...since we have a tech beaker edge on some of our trades...maybe next time we trade we can throw in a request for archery.

robboo
Feb 04, 2007, 06:45 AM
iirc correctly that exploit wasnt banned in this game but merely stated so everyone knew about it.

That was my take on it also...too hard to tell a team they cant whip i na desperate situation.

Robi D
Feb 07, 2007, 11:32 PM
Before i head off i have some screenshots from turn 125

Hej and Hello

http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/8625/t125hejnl1.th.jpg (http://img184.imageshack.us/my.php?image=t125hejnl1.jpg) http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/9314/t125hellowx4.th.jpg (http://img181.imageshack.us/my.php?image=t125hellowx4.jpg)


And some Satellite view of our position in the globe and a view of Aloha
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/4006/t125satelliteglobaliq3.th.jpg (http://img181.imageshack.us/my.php?image=t125satelliteglobaliq3.jpg) http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/484/t125satellitealohayt3.th.jpg (http://img181.imageshack.us/my.php?image=t125satellitealohayt3.jpg)


There is no domestic discussion on at the moment but if anyone has something to say,suggest or even request a screenshot then feel free to share.

I will see you all when i get back:)

Kuningas
Feb 09, 2007, 07:29 AM
Domestic issue concern GP.
We shall have GM in Aloha in 24 turns. What shall we do with it?

Here is my plan to get GM and GE in next 50 turns. Let Aloha finish its GM in 24 turns or before if we run merchant specialists, current GP cost is 100. Meanwhile Hej would build the Hanging Gardens and Forge, and would run an engineer specialist. GP cost at that time is 200 and we would product GE in 40 turns.

As for GM:
Cash in GM in one of Piffle's cities for gold. I would accompany it with a galley to avoid barbarians killing it.

As for GE:
Rush great project either Versailles or Taj Mahal. What ever is feasible at that moment.

BCLG100
Feb 09, 2007, 11:04 AM
I agree about piffle, the gold could be used to do a mass upgrade of horse archers to cossacks?

Kuningas
Feb 10, 2007, 03:42 AM
Firaxis nerfed upgrade costs in civ4. One horse archer upgrade would cost 230 gold is too much.

Robi D
Feb 11, 2007, 05:26 AM
I'm back.

GM and GE idea sounds good to me. Versailles would be be a big bonus as it means we can save the FP for any territory we take from someone

BCLG100
Feb 11, 2007, 06:42 AM
I'm back.

GM and GE idea sounds good to me. Versailles would be be a big bonus as it means we can save the FP for any territory we take from someone



i think the taj is far more valuable, someone used this explanation with me, in effect it gives you two GA's, not only does it give you one but it stops someone else from having one, to me that is critical in this game :)

Kuningas
Feb 11, 2007, 08:36 AM
May be it's important to calculate how many hammers and how much commerce we would gain in GA. 8 turns in GA is a quite short period. Taj Mahal itself costs 700 hammers if we would gain 500 hammers or below in GA, imo GA would be a waste.

Versailles on the other hand stands till the game ends or until we'll be wiped out. [not going to happen :)]
Versailles allows palace jump also. If we can't build FP due not enough courthouses or for other reason. Generally I rarely build courthouses in my games.

BCLG100
Feb 11, 2007, 08:40 AM
I agree on courthouses primarily being a waste of time, however i disagree on how you interpret its worth. infact its worth double 500 hammers because it stops another team from gaining them hammers.

Robi D
Feb 12, 2007, 12:29 AM
Doesn't a GA last longer on normal speed?

Kuningas
Feb 12, 2007, 04:14 AM
IIRC, 6 turns on quick, 8t on normal, 10t on epic.

Robi D
Feb 12, 2007, 04:16 AM
Since i play a lot on quick i'm pretty sure its 8 turns, unless world size comes into the equation as well, so normal should be longer than. Might have to go into world builder and check that.

Edit - nope guess i had it mixed up, quick is 6, normal 8, epic 10. For some reason i had it 8, 10, 12 in my mind:crazyeye: World size doesn't matter.

I don't know i still think Versailles is better overall if we are planning to go and take land off someone, then it means we can have two capitals in our land, say Aloha and Guten Tag then have the FP to put in a city we have taken off someone (probably Piffle). On the other hand if we are just planning to expand peacfully then the Taj might add up better because its a GA you can have without having to use more Great persons for a second, in other words we would get 16 turns of GA for 2 GP's

I don't know why BC thinks courthouses are a waste. I think they are really handy especially as the game goes on since inflation becomes a major part of the costs equation.

BCLG100
Feb 12, 2007, 07:34 AM
courthouses look at it like this, they come along at the same time as other buildings such as markets or grocers- quite a lot of time your cities arn't even developed enough to have all of the basics in by the time they come around.

Now say a city is raking in 10 gpt, which would increase on every pop growth by 2 gpt while it also has maintenance costs of 2 gpt increasing by 1 every 2 pops.

1 pop = 10 gpt -1 maintenance
2 pop 12 gpt -1 maintenance
3 pop 14 gpt -2 maintenance
4 pop 16 gpt -2 maintenance
5 pop 18 gpt -3 maintenance

would you rather build something that increases the gold output so infact what your getting is this.

1 pop= 12 gpt -1 maintenance
2 pop 15 gpt -1 maintenance
3 pop= 17/18 gpt - 2 maintenance
4 pop= 20 gpt -2 maintenance
5 pop 21/22 gpt - 3 maintenance.

or a building that just reduces costs by 1 or so every turn, i appreciate this isnt exactly how maintenance costs work but its a good indication of what a building for only 30 more shields can do compared to a building without one, i dont normally end up building courthouses until well into the 1000's ad, as other builds get prioritised over it.

the other benefit to building/popping the taj is that we can use the resulting GA to fast build versailles if need be...

dl123654
Feb 12, 2007, 01:03 PM
the other benefit to building/popping the taj is that we can use the resulting GA to fast build versailles if need be...

Or for mass building horses

Robi D
Feb 13, 2007, 12:30 AM
courthouses look at it like this, they come along at the same time as other buildings such as markets or grocers- quite a lot of time your cities arn't even developed enough to have all of the basics in by the time they come around.

Now say a city is raking in 10 gpt, which would increase on every pop growth by 2 gpt while it also has maintenance costs of 2 gpt increasing by 1 every 2 pops.

1 pop = 10 gpt -1 maintenance
2 pop 12 gpt -1 maintenance
3 pop 14 gpt -2 maintenance
4 pop 16 gpt -2 maintenance
5 pop 18 gpt -3 maintenance

would you rather build something that increases the gold output so infact what your getting is this.

1 pop= 12 gpt -1 maintenance
2 pop 15 gpt -1 maintenance
3 pop= 17/18 gpt - 2 maintenance
4 pop= 20 gpt -2 maintenance
5 pop 21/22 gpt - 3 maintenance.

or a building that just reduces costs by 1 or so every turn, i appreciate this isnt exactly how maintenance costs work but its a good indication of what a building for only 30 more shields can do compared to a building without one, i dont normally end up building courthouses until well into the 1000's ad, as other builds get prioritised over it.

the other benefit to building/popping the taj is that we can use the resulting GA to fast build versailles if need be...

I think thats simplistic and inaccurate. First apart from the capital i do know of 1 pop 1 city that can rake in 10 gold, and after the first few cities the maintence cost go up. For example when Guten Tag was founded its was cost 3gpt in maintenece and was making 1 gpt.

While our more established cities wont need one for a while the newer outlying cities will soon, particularly one which wont be raking in lots of gold

BCLG100
Feb 13, 2007, 05:43 AM
I did say it was simplistic and i just used them number because they were easy to divide. However it still stands that a courthouse only gets rid of 50% of corruption in comparison to 25% gained with a grocer or market. which ok if maintenance is minus 20 gold is a lot but we dont have any cities like that.

And as we are a financial civ then cottages are the way forward and so, the majority of cities will be raking in quite a bit of gold. If not whats the point in a financial civ?

Kuningas
Feb 13, 2007, 06:12 AM
City maintenance can go up to -8gpt per city. I don't know distance maintenance limit, but are we not building cities on other side of the map. And if we are going to do so, we can adopt State Property to nullify distance costs. At that point Courthouses are obsoleted.

BCLG100
Feb 13, 2007, 11:15 AM
does that satisfy you robi? :mischief:

Robi D
Feb 13, 2007, 10:40 PM
does that satisfy you robi? :mischief:

No :p

I'm not saying we should mass build courthouses everywhere now, but they are not useless in my eyes either.

robboo
Feb 14, 2007, 09:29 AM
I usually build just enough courthouses and only in my cities which are suffering for gold either because they cant make enough gpt to cover their upkeep or they are just too far away.

I think they are only valuable in those cases, so i would not think of building ANY in the cities we currently have bu tin any others we settle or take.

Robi D
Feb 18, 2007, 05:06 AM
I finally have a meaningful suggestion as Domestic Minister to petition our beloved President (never hurts to suck up:) )

This just hit me like a bolt of lighting.

We are Creative which gives us 1/2 price theaters.
Theaters give +1 happy face for each 10% of culture on the slider
They also give +1 happy face for dyes and we have dyes:D

We also have plenty of health to cover 10-12 pop in our cities but only happiness for 6-7pop. By building theaters in every city as soon as the pop warrents it and sacrificing 10% of our gold we can add 2 extra pop points in all of our cities which at 8 cities currently is 16 pop points which will more than covers the investment of 10% gold and 1/2 price theaters. And best of all we can implement it straight away, no need to wait for founding and spreading a religion or expanding to get the furs, incense or elephants. An added bonus is our borders will expand that little bit faster which will make the barbs that much less annoying.

So what do you all think? Genius, rubbish or somewhere in between.
My slightly biased opinion is genius;)

Kuningas
Feb 18, 2007, 05:15 AM
If you check report for turn 131. You will see that I started Theater in Aloha and Kia Ora. Also Hello and Hej has it in build queue up next. Theaters are great invest for only 50 hammers.

Robi D
Feb 18, 2007, 05:30 AM
If you check report for turn 131. You will see that I started Theater in Aloha and Kia Ora. Also Hello and Hej has it in build queue up next. Theaters are great invest for only 50 hammers.

Since we are Creative its effectively 25 hammers, which means by the time a city is at 5 or 6 pop points its a 2-3 turn build. And with dyes in our hands thats a good deal for 3 culture and 1 happy face.

BCLG100
Feb 18, 2007, 11:38 AM
Hey, it was better than my idea as foreign minister to increase communications to build a massive road to every other civ :mischief:

robboo
Feb 18, 2007, 04:14 PM
dam good idea...we basically get the effects of religion except for the theocracy bonus on units.

As a bonus with a religion we will be able to run as much pop as our health would allow since that will add another happy face without a temple.

Robi D
Feb 22, 2007, 09:06 PM
Some screenshots to keep you all up to date with all the aspects of our great nation.

Here are the city screen (f1), Finance (f2) and victory (f8)
http://img458.imageshack.us/img458/699/t134cityscreenoy4.th.jpg (http://img458.imageshack.us/my.php?image=t134cityscreenoy4.jpg)
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/506/t134victoryscreenog7.th.jpg (http://img137.imageshack.us/my.php?image=t134victoryscreenog7.jpg)
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/1941/t134financescreenqd9.th.jpg (http://img407.imageshack.us/my.php?image=t134financescreenqd9.jpg)

Robi D
Feb 24, 2007, 07:29 AM
I keep forgeting so while it actually in my head, the courthouse vs market issue.

There is one more problem with BC's model. Markets give the 25% on taxes only not all commerce generated, so if you run 100% science then markets give you zero extra gold. On average an average figure 80% science a city with 20 commerce and 4 upkeep a market will give you 1 extra gold, a courthouse will save you 2 gold. Not to mention as the game goes on upkeep costs have inflation applied to them, gold earned doesn't, hence courthouses are not useless and why we should build them as the need arises :)

BCLG100
Feb 24, 2007, 06:05 PM
Hence why sometimes it is better to run at 0 or 100% :) to get the full benefit out of buildings :)

Robi D
Feb 24, 2007, 08:15 PM
But courthouse give you the benefit whether you run 0%, 100% or anything in between:)

If you look at our cities, Aloha is definately a market first. If we are going to make Hello a GP farm which everyone so far seem to think is the way to go then a courthouse would make more sense.

Also from what i've been reading in the strategy guides number of cities maintenance is a lot higher then distance maintenance which is something to keep in mind

BCLG100
Feb 25, 2007, 08:08 AM
I do agree that for some parts they have benefits, however if maintenance really did become a problem then a switch to state property can be in order, to my mind there is little point in building something which doesnt last the whole game.

exception is maybe monastry's.