The Luddites were a social movement of English textile workers in the early 1800s who protested — often by destroying textile machines — against the changes produced by the Industrial Revolution, which they felt threatened their livelihood. The movement, which began in 1811, was named after a [possibly] mythical leader, Ned Ludd. For a short time the movement was so strong that it clashed in battles with the British Army. Measures taken by the government included a mass trial at York in 1813 that resulted in many death penalties and transportations (deportation to a penal colony).

The English historical movement has to be seen in its context of the harsh economic climate due to the Napoleonic Wars; but since then, the term Luddite has been used to describe anyone opposed to technological progress and technological change.(From Wikipedia)

"Rage Against the Machine" was a slogan of the Luddites (and is also the name of a cool band)

In this Luddite game we will be taking Japan. Japan has never been an inventive culture. Anything you look at in Japan (with the possible excpetion of their love of baths) has come from somewhere else. Tea is from China and developed into the tea ceremony; kimono was made with Chinese silk and developed from Chinese styles; the written language is borrowed from China, the medical terminology, political structure and educational system is borrowed from Germany; tempura was introduced by the Portugese and there is even strong evidence that the royal family is not decended form the Sun goddess but from Korean lineage. What Japan has been best at is taking technology and ideas from other civilization and adapting them to the Japanese environment and developing them into a truely unique cultural expression.

Our challenge is to continue this tradition and run a 0% science game with the Japanese and be the first to colonize space.

Crafty trading and pointy sticks are the only tools we will be allowed to work with. At no time may the science slider rise above 0%, nor a scientist ever be hired and if we ever cpture a city with the Great Library in it, it must be razed immediately.

The level will be Demi-god and Space will be the only victory condition.
Standard World and 8 civs
Barbs are roaming

So far, we have four players and are waiting on one more. I think there is room for one more player to sign on if someone is interested.

I've rolled four starts that we can choose from but I think #4 is a no brainer.

Start 1
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/ragestart1.jpg

Start 2
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/ragestart2.jpg

Start 3
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/ragestart3.jpg

Start 4
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/ragestart4.jpg

Sorry about the poor quality pics but I think you can make them out

Roster:

Phaedo
Bucephalus UP
Elephantium On Deck
Simple Monkey
Smart

Buce checking in.

Spamming to subscribe.

Good luck!

Good luck, Phaedo and the rest!

Have fun leading Japan into space! :yeah:

Cool Phaedo, just started a solo game identical to this (my first DG attempt) after reading that Jumpmaster thread that someone linked to us. Good luck :)

There is a game just like this that hasn't been updated since October:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=178600.

There is a game just like this that hasn't been updated since October:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=178600.

I remember it well - I was in it until it died an early death.

Another thread:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=126872

Ah, but in this one we will see lots of other civs crying and a Toyota interstellar ship.

Monkey checking in. :salute:

#4 is a no-brainer (which is just my speed). Let's see what we pop when we build our first mud hut.

Ah, but in this one we will see lots of other civs crying and a Toyota interstellar ship.
:lol:
#4 is a no-brainer (which is just my speed). Let's see what we pop when we build our first mud hut.
Is that a river S of the settler? :hmm:

:lol:

Is that a river S of the settler? :hmm:

Not only is it a river, there is a goody hut. We can't research and we really need WC.:)

Tusker checking in. This is going to be a very interesting game.

Well, I haven't heard back from Norton II but I think we can start with the four of us. If someone wants to join we can take one but four ought to be enough.

Start 4 looks best to me. Does anyone else have other thoughts? We can choose CB and hope we get tech form the hut. It looks like we are on the right side of the river for movement as we are at the bottom of the map. I'm assuming we will want a warrior or two as our first builds.

EDIT: I was thinking the first player takes 20 turns and then 10 turns after. I don't have strong feelings though. Any thoughts as to who should take it first?

There's not a bad start among them, but 4 looks favourite to me too.

I think our Shogun should take it first.

Warriors for sure, early contacts are key.

Are there open slots? I want to join, always wanted to play no science game to improve trading skills, and this level is also ok for me :)

Welcome! Absolutely gald to have you. BTW what's your time zone? The roster is not formally set yet. I would like to pair people that are online at similar times. If you could PM me your location and usual CFF schedule I'd appreciate it.

Monday-Friday, I'm usually online between 12am-4 or 5am, GMT.

On the weekends, I'm online a lot more.

Phaedo, are you actually in Japan? :eek:

How cool is it?

I can play anytime when I see the save, usually at the evening. My timezone is GMT+3

Ok. I didn't really change the roster too much but it should be ok. I'll play toninght after work tonight.

@Ansar: about -3 deg C in the morning to 12 deg C in the afternoon:p . I like it. I've been here for about 6 years now. :)

@Ansar: about -3 deg C in the morning to 12 deg C in the afternoon:p . I like it. I've been here for about 6 years now. :)
Not "temperature" cool. ;)

I mean, Japan is cool, isn't it? Or do you like it better where you were before?

I loove living in Japan. There are some frustrations but there are a lot of great things too. I went back to Canada for a year and decided to move back to Japan so I must like it a fair bit. I do like being an ex-pat and it's good for a pale-face like me to experience life as a minority:)

about -3 deg C in the morning to 12 deg C in the afternoon
Sigh, it's 20 degrees here (F) with a 10 degree windchill

Anyone around? I'm on turn 14. We lucked out and got WC from the Hut:woohoo:

We've met the Dutch and the Celts.

The Celts are up BW and Pots with 10 gold
The Dutch are up BW, Pots and Alph with 35 gold

We are up WC and The Wheel on both of them

Willis will give us all he has for our tech
Brennus will give us all he has for The wheel

EDIT: Willie will give us alphabet for the Wheel, 55g and 1gpt, but won't go for a WC only trade even for 70g + 5gpt (our max). He must be researching it which makes me inclined to trade it now, get parity and bankrupt both.

Willie has horses in his bordes maybe 8 squares form our capital

I've saved and I'm going to wait for some feedback as I don't really want to make this decesion solo. We have 3 rWarriors and 70 gold and a settler coming in 8 (which will put our cap back to pop1)

Do we have any horses in sight? If so, I'd get them hooked up and build a rax instead of the setter (going down to pop1 hurts, even if we don't care about money for research). Warrior Code and Wheel may mean some fairly early pointy stick. At this stage, the AI usually coughs up every tech they have if you sack just 1 or 2 cities. What's our military like after 14 turns? :lol:

Willie probably won't trade Alphabet lightly because, a) he has it as a monopoly tech, and, b) it's more valuable than either of our two techs individually.

I would be inclined to trade the two to Willie for all he has, as the value of our techs will plummet once someone else knows them, and then Alphabet will not come cheap at all.

Bear in mind also, that Brennus may well soon have other first tier techs, and you will still have three techs with which to tempt him.

Agree with Buce, really. It's likely not quite time yet to call out the hounds. Can we get Alpha from Willie without breaking our bank or even at a profit, and then pick up the other two from Brennus with whatever we have that's cheapest?

Sorry, I didn't pay enough attention the first time to see that we're at three warriors right now.

I'd still think carefully about putting our capital down to pop1, esp. without a granary in place to rebuild it quicker. But I'll leave that to wiser primates than myself to say.

@SM: I can't agree with the Settler issue. At this level we will be out-expanded anyway, so we need cities on the ground. We can always dedicate the most efficient of the two to some military builds without compromising our ability to expand.

While I agree with you that poking with the pointy stick will play a big part in this game, so will gpt trading, and for that we need productive territory.

Willie wil give us Alphabet for the wheel plus 55gold and 1gpt. He is about 6 or 7 turns from meeting Brennus

Willie wil give us Alphabet for the wheel plus 55gold and 1gpt. He is about 6 or 7 turns from meeting Brennus

Since they both have BW & Pots, all you will end up with is exactly the same techs as you would if trading to Willie for all he has - the only difference being we will have paid 55g and landed ourselves with a debt for twenty turns.
Even 1gpt represents a sizeable percentage of our disposable income at this stage of the game.
My advice remains the same - trade Willie now.

I think starting next to two agri civs is a whole lot of bad luck.

Any chance of a screenie?

Here are the screenies. I'm not going to get a chance to finishe it tonight but should be able to do it in the morning.

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/img_177.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/img_176.jpg

I think trading both to Willie and then waiting is what I'm going to do. Thoughts about city placement would be welcome. I see maybe 1 spot on the river but a costal would be nice as we are going to get Alph

Thoughts about city placement would be welcome. I see maybe 1 spot on the river but a costal would be nice as we are going to get Alph

I would say one of the two hills near our warrior would be favourite; if we don't put one there, Willie soon will.

Being hemmed in like this, I think SM will get his wish for early violence.

Cool Phaedo, just started a solo game identical to this (my first DG attempt) after reading that Jumpmaster thread that someone linked to us. Good luck :)
I was planning to start one just like this, but someone (who-shall-remain-nameless) beat me to it.

:gripe:

And

:goodjob:

After all, we do think alike!

And Ieyasu's quest for space begins

Open up save 4.
T0 4000BC
send the worker to the BG by the river.
Choose Pottery to "research." WC and BW cost 102 beakers according to CA II. I'm really hoping we will bet WC when that hut pops.
CAn't think of anything else to do so settle Kyoto.
Whoopie!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sometimes lady luck is kind
3 silks and the ocean isn't too far away. Looks like a nice start to me:)
Drop the science slider to 0% (where it will stay forever)

T1 3950BC
worker starts mining
ATM we have 5turn warriors. Even though we can build archers, Exploring seems to be a much higher priority than military might at the moment.

T2 3900BC Zzzz
T3 3850BC Zzzz
T4 3800BC Zzzz

IBT Kyoto warrior>warrior

T5 3750BC

Taro the warrior moves North

T6 3700BC
Taro is going to continue exploring to the north and our second one will go Easterly.

T7 3650BC
We finish the mine. I decide to road the tile for the extra gold to make up for to 10% lux increase that will have to happen in 3 turns, then I'll road the lux I guess.

T8 3600BC
Taro explores

IBT warrior>warrior (I figure I'll build the 3 our upkeep will allow and then change)

T9 3550
Taro explores. It looks we are at the bottom of a penninsula.

IBT Kyoto grows

T10 3500BC
Up the lux slider to 10% and get the auto clown working.
Decide to wait on roading the silks as we need the grass to keep us at 10-turn growth. I sort of wish I hadn't roaded now and had gone straight to the mine. There is another BG in out BFC now.
Taro and Tomo the warriors keep busting fog.

T11 3450BC
start another mine and explore.
Taro moves to a hill and sees some turquoise borders and a GH.
Tomo moves South and it seems we don't have a lot of land to work with.

T12 3400BC
Kyoto builds another warrior and switches to a settler (in 8 with growth)
Decide to leave the warrior home for MP duty and Barb protection.
Lower lux to 0%
Tomo moves to a hill and can just make out an orange border.
Taro moves towards the Celtish looking border (I'm not sure what other civ uses that colour)

T13 3350
Meet the Celts. Brennus is Up BW and Pottery and Down Teh Wheel and WC. He's polite
Tomo moves to a Mt and sees some borders but no units

IBT The Dutch move into sight

T14 3300BC
Willie is up BW Pottery and Alph with 35 in the bank (Brennus with 10)
Talk to Wilie first He will give all his gold, Pottery and Alphabet for our wheel and WC. He has horses in his bordeers
Brennus will give us Pots, BW and his gold for the Wheel
Decide to save and see if anyone is online
It seems I must have made a mistake in posting. Willie won't give us all his techs. So I decide to leave him with BW and get it from Brennus
Dutch: 35 gold, Alph and Pots for Wheel and WC
Celts: 10 gold and BW for WC

T15 3250BC
fog busting

T16 3200BC
Fog busting

T17 3150BC
Fog Busting. It seems Brennus' warriors have moved, they will probably meet the Dutch in 2-3 turns

T18 3100BC
Exploring

T19 3050BC
Exploring. We have some NICE land to the South.

T20 3000BC
Settler is built>granary
Settler moves SE along the river
Exploring.

Checked with The AI every turn but no deals. They don't even have cash. We are up Alph and Wheel on Brennus and even with Willie.
We have some expansion room but it's tight.

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/img_177.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/img_176.jpg

I was planning to start one just like this, but someone (who-shall-remain-nameless) beat me to it.

:gripe:

And

:goodjob:

After all, we do think alike!

Great minds think alike, and fools seldom differ:D

Actually, this has been in the planning stages for a while. I don't deserve all the credit. Buce and I have been talking about this one for a couple of months now.

No thoughts on city placement right now, but I see that Willie has horsies in a city radius. Does anyone ever doubt that the AI always knows where all the resources are from the very start? Why else settle in 2000BC on the tile next to the uranium mountain?

The AI are morons with hooking up resources. Anyone want to guess what the odds are that we can build up enough stone age miltary to relieve him of that territory before he gets it properly roaded?

This isn't nearly the same desperate situation that Smart had in the Russian Polar Expedition game, but two agri neighbors in green territory may force us into rolling the dice with a 10 archer army.

Or am I really getting a bit too excited about getting us into an early quick war?

This isn't nearly the same desperate situation that Smart had in the Russian Polar Expedition game, but two agri neighbors in green territory may force us into rolling the dice with a 10 archer army.

Or am I really getting a bit too excited about getting us into an early quick war?

Sounds like the route we are going to me although we do have some expansion room. It'd be nice to have the 10 archers but let's hold off on pulling the trigger just yet;) . It definately looks like early war though eh?

We still have enough green room, I don't think that we need that early war right now :)

I guess I'm up (once Phaedo posts the save :mischief:)

Since I'll have to find a home for a Settler during my set, I could do with some input on city placement. Being this close to two Agri civs - and with no food bonus - we will run out of space sooner rather later.

Ooops!!!!
So sorry.

Getting a quick city on one of the hills was my intention and the grass N of the cow looks nice and is coastal. Dare we go CxxxC with our first 2 cities that close to Willie? I think we have a bit of time in the North

How about 4SE of Kyoto? That would put it on a hill next to a river surrounded by some trees and such, and it would disourage Willie from settling another city north of Horsetown. I'm not a fan of CxxxC, but this situation probably calls for it. Then maybe a push to the east coast to close our borders?

I concur with SM on that. Red dot first, then I suggest blue should we have the opportunity.

The black arrow is pointing to Dutch borders.

I also propose that the worker should chop wood for the granary once it's current task is finished.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/38078/Screenie_Phaedo02.JPG

Looks good to me:D

I'm going to hold back from playing, to give Smart and Elephant-Dude a chance to voice their opinions.

Red and blue dots look good to me.

Could we get a roster posted?

Could we get a roster posted?

Where's Choxorn when you need him.

The roster is the second post of the game and I will try to update that as each set is played

Enter:

2950 BC:

2900 BC:

2850 BC:

Osaka founded > Warrior
Dutch have Mysticism, wil not trade.

2800 BC:

Worker completes mine, begins road

2750 BC:

Dutch learn Masonry - no to trade.

2710 BC:

Utrecht founded south of us, Camel-dung founded north of us.

2670 BC:

We meet the Hittites. I suspect they already know Brennus because they have tech parity.
Worker completes road, moves to forest for chopping.

2630 BC:

Osaka > Warrior > Worker
Worker in Kyoto begins chopping wood.

2590 BC:

2550 BC:

Hittites have IW. Will not trade for all our gold (185g + 8gpt)
Dutch will not trade Mysticism or Masonry (all monopoly techs).

Summary:

It's looking grim from an expansion perspective - all of our victims (I mean neighbours ;)) have 5 cities each. I think the Hittites don't yet know the Dutch but Brennus knows both, so will probably broker a deal, giving all of them IW :(.

Kyoto will have a Granary in 4 with the chop. I think we need to get a Settler out next to found 'blue dot'.

It looks to me that we then need to chop for a Rax in Kyoto and Osaka, then start pumping out Archers ASAP. We will have three reasonably productive cities to do this, though 'blue dot' may well be more suited to Settler production to fill the gaps that we will hopefully create. The land to our North is poor, so I think Willie needs to be our target for a spot of pointy-stick expansion/research.

I can't be sure, but looking at the mini-map it seems Willie has little room to his South. We need a spot of luck and hope that he doesn't have Iron.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/38078/Rage_01.JPG

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/38078/Rage_02.JPG

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/38078/Rage_2550BC_Buce.SAV

At least it's not Persia right next door.

I agree totally with Buce's assessement. Blue dot for settlers, and vet archers ASAP from the other two. Willie makes sense as the first contributor to Japanese expansion. I might even bypass Utrecht to start and push directly into his heartland with its (likely) better territory.

I might even bypass Utrecht to start and push directly into his heartland with its (likely) better territory.

Agreed. By the time we are ready to go, they will likely know if they have Iron; the sooner that is cut off, the better.

Sounds good to me. It liiks like you get your early violence Simp:). I wish I had something more to add but you guys have pretty much covered it

I believe that the tusker is due his turn, and I'm on deck.

Phaedo
Bucephalus
Elephantium UP
Simple MonkeyOn Deck
Smart[/QUOTE]

I'd like to trade with SM for this round; I'm up in Aabra01, and that takes quite a bit of concentration.

It's ok with me if it's ok with SM:)

Fine by me, as long as everyone's okay with me taking it on tomorrow evening. I'll see how many arrow boys I can crank out.

Fine by me, as long as everyone's okay with me taking it on tomorrow evening. I'll see how many arrow boys I can crank out.

While cranking out a settler for blue as quickly as we can eh?;)

It has been suggested that we each take 20 turns until things get more complicated. As SM was going to play tomorror, this shouldn't inconvienance him and I think it is a good idea. So for the next round let's do that and re-evaluate. I'd like to leave the revised order as is with Tusker going after SM as he is still mid-set in Aabra01.

Buce is going to play another 10 turns tonight and then SM can take it. There ought to be plenty of time for us to put in our $0.02 once Buce finishes. The only corollary to this is to pause mid-set for input if something comes up.

Off we go then:D

2510 BC:

IBT:

6 Dutch Warriors heading West from 'Horse' town; I think they are barb hunting - hell, I hope they are.

2470 BC:

Worker completes chop at Kyoto, revealing a BG; begin to road.

Check trades. As expected, IW is now known by all. I can get it for 215g + 1gpt from any of them. Pause for consideration. Of course it has no trade value, but I can't see any reason why it will come any cheaper if I leave it, and it is of vital importance to us to know where the Iron is. I decide to buy it, but who from? Not from Willie, that's for sure; we have every reason not to make him rich. I'm going to go with Brennus, as a minor insurance policy against aggression.

Result? :woohoo: we have Iron at Osaka! I can see none elsewhere, and if anyone else has it in the fog, it's not hooked up.

2430 BC:

Osaka > Worker > Rax.
Move Worker to forest for chopping

2390 BC:

Worker (Osaka) begins chop.
Kyoto Granary > Settler ( growth in 6, complete in 6)

2350 BC:

Worker (Kyoto) completes road, begins mine.

2310 BC:

Nada.
Hittites lack Mysticism, but I can't get it from the others.

2270 BC:

Nada.

IBT:

Really bad news; Dutch Settler heading for 'Blue Dot'

2230 BC:

Worker completes chop (Osaka), moves to BG.
Osaka > Rax > Archer
Move Warrior to try and shepherd Dutch Settler away.

2190 BC:

Worker begins to mine (Osaka)
Dutch have Writing.

IBT:

Dutch Settler heads away from 'Blue Dot' but will probably settle inconveniently close.

2150 BC:

Kyoto > Settler > Rax (7); Settler toward 'Blue Dot' just in case Willie plants his city badly - it has been known.
Suddenly, our 'friends' all have HBR, Celts get Writing, Hittites get Mysticism.

Summary:

Mixed fortunes, really. Losing 'Blue Dot is more of an inconvenience than a disaster, but having Iron is a major bonus that could make all the difference.
Kyoto will give three turn Archers at size three or three turn Swords at size five. Obviously this would involve heavy use of the lux slider, but since we are committed to pointy-stick now, I don't suppose that matters. Osaka has two BG's that - once mined - will give five turn Archers at size two, four turn Archers at size three (or six turn Swords), three turn Archers at size five.

Assuming that we don't get lucky with 'Blue Dot', then we have a spare Settler. Do we use it elsewhere or save it? If we save it to raze and replace we have no means of building another while we build up our military; on the other hand, unit support would be increased by putting it down somewhere, and it would give us another Settler in 30 turns, and I don't see us having enough military to go to war in that time period.

Further on the downside, the Dutch will have Horsemen. I think our odds of surviving this start are getting slimmer by the turn.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/38078/Rage_3.JPG

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/38078/Rage_2150_BC_Buce.SAV

If we decide to place the Settler, IMO this is the only suitable spot.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/38078/Rage_3_DM.JPG

I don't think that we have time for settlers, our cities are at size one, and it's not good for military production and commerce... Lets build archers or swords and take their towns. They will build settlers for us :lol:

For this round we are 20 turns apiece. The Tusker/Sm switch is for this round only as well (assuming we survive that long):)

Phaedo
Bucephalus
Elephantium On Deck
Simple MonkeyUP
Smart

Well, this is interesting isn't it? I guess our only real option is to pump out as much military as possible. Archers first, then swords. Pray that we can get Brennus in on the action. If Willie doesn't let up on the cow (probably not) then I agree that the last dot is the only good one. I guess the horses should be the first target but it's going to be a real pain to have that cow town against us.

The rest of the team has 20 turns apiece but things are getting a bit complicated so let's institute a 10-turn post for discussion. Of course, any decesions such as founding cities, trades or war should cause a pause unless absolutely obvious or previously agreed upon. If there are any doubts about which route to take please ask for input. Most of haven't played together so we don't really know each other's styles. It would be good to have a general consensus of the road we are planning to take for those IBT demands as well. This is a tough start but that will only increase the glory when we take our Land of the Rising Sun to space

IMO, we need to reassess this situation; Willie getting HBR this early has moved the goalposts somewhat. I believe that the strategic decisions that we make now, will make or break us; the next 40-50 turns are going to be the most important ones in this game.

My assessment is that an Archer stack is no longer a viable option. Horses will decimate an Archer stack, long before it has a chance to do any damage, and any cities taken would quickly be retaken. I say taken, because without Settlers, raze and replace isn't really an option.

A sword stack would fare a little better, but would need to be large enough to soak up casualties. We have two cities - with the option of a third - so we are not going to get much free unit support, and much of our gpt will need to go to the lux slider if we are to have our cities at the necessary size to crank out Swords effectively.

We need a plan, and it has to be a plan that effectively deals with the threat of Dutch horses. I don't think we can look to the others for any useful help, Hittites are too far away, and without Iron for Gaelic Swords the Celts would just send a few Archers - too few and too late.

However, I do have a plan for your consideration. It would require a disciplined approach, with each of us knowing exactly where we are going with it, and it still may not bear fruit, but I can't think of anything better.

Firstly, we need to plant that Settler, if only for the unit support. The Dotmap I submitted would also grow fast enough to produce a Worker - which we need - followed by a Settler.

We also need to connect the Iron, and connect Osaka to Kyoto. These are priority Worker tasks, though it would be nice to get those silks on line as soon as we have a spare Worker.

We need to get our cities up to size 5 if possible, Kyoto can be there in 20 turns, and start producing Swords.

My plan then hinges on acquiring Writing, something currently beyond our affordabilty, but which should be affordable once the Hittites acquire it.

We would then need to establish an Embassy with Willie. Then comes the risky part. We DOW Brennus, and hope to be able to offer Willie enough of an inducement to ally with us. This is where the extra Worker comes in. We have time while preparing our military to connect a road to 'Horse' town and to a surplus Silks; I'm fairly confident that a lux would be enough to seal the deal.

A nice twenty turn war should see Willie send all of his Horses at Brennus; after 20 turns our stack of Swords should be relatively unopposed as they walk in to 'Horse' town, which once captured would see the end of the horse threat. Then a long hard slog in to the Dutch core would be on the cards. And if Brennus has lost cities, he may even pay tech for peace with us, though that would be a bonus, and is not a factor in my planning. I certainly don't advocate doing any actual fighting with the Celts - we'll leave that to Willie's Horses.

I don't think it necessary to totally eradicate the Dutch, but taking their core territory and exiling them to the Tundra to our South should be our minimum aim. Taking techs for early peace would be counter-productive in the long term.

And that's all I have to say, except it will not be acceptable to dismiss my suggestions without offering an alternative; inertia is not an option.

After staring blankly at the save for a while, I'm on board with a view towards allying with the Dutch against the Celts.

I don't want to give up on that cow yet though. The Celts have the early power lead and it is us and the Dutch that have suffered. Both Willie and Brennus are impressed with our culture. I don't think Willie will try to block our cow when there is room to the south. I think it is worth it to keep our warrior close to see what he will do. As long as we are next to his units, the AI looks at it as an attack threat so it will probably move to one of the forests. I'd like to keep our settler going to the cow for a couple of turns and if Willie settles too close, we head for new red. I really don't think 3 turns of movement we could lose will cost us the spot. The agression level is set to average (as it always is in my games). Unless Willie has outgrown his land, I don't think he'll value our cow so much. We'll know if he settles (it will also give us a good idea of what the continent looks like over there so there is intelligence value as well). I'd like to put the iron warrior on the hill to spot early movement.

Although, I agree that rolling the dice with 10 archers gives us a greater possibility of snake eyes than sevens, I'd like to keep our options open for the next 5ish turns (basically meaning that we chase the settler pair with our warrior, claiming the cow next turn and moving our settler first SE then S and maybe one more square S before giving up and heading to red depending on Willie's reaction).

The reason I think this is that the AI tends to allow you 3-5 cities before getting agressive and it depends on unit location. I think if the settler crossed the river, Wilie would settler immediately. Have you ever played with the AI and unit placement? I've kept settler pairs moving between 2 squares for more than 10 turns just by moving one of my units back and forth. The first game I encountered it was one of my 1st DG games with a friend of mine through e-mail where we were screwed and kept re-loading to see what we could do. We ended up keeping an Ai settler pair moving between squares for 30 turns while we populated an island just by moving a spear back and forth. Now, that is obviously an exploit but I somehow think that once our settler crosses the river the AI will assume we are settling North. I may be out to lunch but I think if we make the next settler move SE, we lose 1 turn to red but can see how Willie reacts. I would assume he wont settle on the cow. If he moves SW, he doesn't see our warrior as a threat and will definately settle. If he moves W or SE, the warrior is doing his job and we should push it one more turn to see the reaction.

Also, after staring at the save, it looks like the plains to the NW is a coastal square. That gives us another possible location. It is a much lower priority but it's nice to know we have options and I somehow feel the west is the direction of new contacts. I don't thik this directly affects the Willie vs. Brennus strategy, but I'd like to see how the next 3-5 turns play out before we stop thinking of alternatives.

To summarize, I agree with Buce, but I'd like to see what Willie does with his settler pair for the next 2-3 turns before giving up on blue. I think the benefits of the cow are worth the risk

I'm also going to have to look at the save for a long time an analyze the situation at hand. I agree that we're going to have to pull off something magnificent here, or at least just not totally boneheaded. I do agree with not giving up on the cow just yet. But don't for a second think that the AI won't drop a city down on top of a cow. They will.

Also, I'll have to get a better grasp on what the loopy Irish to the north are capable of. We're in good shape if he's not building his high-speed swords. Surviving him seems quite doable.

I'll take a look at things and let you all know what I'm thinking for my 10. To be played sometime Saturday, I think.

I think this is going to be briefer than my usual reports. Buce and Phaedo have quite accurately assessed our situation. We've had some great luck (iron within our territory when we only have 2 cities, plus Celt neighbors who have no iron), and some bad (see previous posts). I'm going to play out these turns to see how quickly we can put Operation Irish Spring into effect. (Since we're counting on Brennus to help relieve Willie of his surplus military, and since we'd also like to come out of this one feeling brisk and clean.)

IT Not much. Dutch warriors head west for no apparant reason. The settler moves away from the cow.

Turn 1 (2110BC) Worker finishes roading a mined BG and moves over to road another. Once that's done he'll be in the right position to go hook up our silks. None of our three neighbors is willing to sell us a thing. Play hide and seek with the settler,and move ours toward the goal.

IT The settler moves south, away from the cow. :banana:

Turn 2 (2070BC) See above.

IT Willie moves his warriors around for no real reason I can see. Settler continues on down the coast. Maybe he knows of an oil deposit down in the tundra.

Turn 3 (2030BC) Luck holds for now. Continue to move our own settler into place. Osaka grows and I move the iron guard into his city apartment, rather than turn on the beer taps. Figure that if we're in that much trouble that we need to guard our iron before it's hooked up, we're likely not going to be living long enough to collect Social Security.

That's five Dutch axemen in our neighborhood, by the way. If Willie's going to get froggish, he's going to do it this turn or the next.

IT The Dutch invasion disappears -- the mystery axemen head back east.

Turn 4 (1990BC) Willie must have met someone rich, as his treasury has suddenly jumped to 191g.

Oh, and Blue Dot may now be renamed Tokyo. :)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/42605/Tokyo.jpg


I move our hide and seek warrior east to see if we can map out some more of Willie's territory. Might as well see how he's fixing things up for us.

Turn 5 (1950BC) More fog-busting. Move worker over to road the silks. Rax complete next turn.

IT :sleep:

Turn 6 (1910BC) Had to think about whether to chop first or road. Realize that if we chop in 4 then the shields will hit just as the archer completes, rather than as we start on the next one. Decide to road in 6 instead.

IT :sleep:

Turn 7 (1870BC) Celts are now the rich boys, suddenly at 206g. We need to get invited to more parties.

Willie is at only 6 cities, Murray has 7, and Brennus has 8.

IT :sleep:

I think I missed a turn here when nothing was happening. :blush:

Turn 9 (1790) Tokyo finishes its MP warrior and starts on a worker. We start mining for iron. As soon as the next archer finishes, I'm going to pop out more warriors for upgrades. In fact, I change production in Osaka from an archer to a warrior to finish in the next turn.

IT See above.

Turn 10 (1750BC) Kyoto is currently putting out 7 shields per turn. Is it better to have a 2 turn warrior with 4 wasted shields, or an archer in 3 with only 1 shield flushed? I'll go with choice 2. The next best player can switch over to a warrior or a spear if that seems the wiser choice.

Okay, I think that we're on track with Operation Irish Spring so far. Our military might is now 6 warriors, and 2 archers. The iron will be hooked up in 5, and then our work crews are going to have to start making some serious roads with a quickness. Our spy in the Netherlands has so far avoided the boot, due to some gaps in Willie's culture expansion. It looks like taking Horsetown and then the next village over will also net us some furs for the winter.

Here's a pic of Japan today.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/42605/1750BC.jpg


And here's the >>SAVE<< (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/42605/Rage_1750_BC_Monkey.SAV)

EDIT -- And I believe that the tusker now has his turn at the command chair.

Good work Simp! Getting Tokyo down is awfully nice. I didn't know if we could do it but I'm really happy it worked out. Should we go for red too or just keep pumping out warriors?

Phaedo
Bucephalus
Elephantium On Deck
Simple MonkeyUP
Smart

Got it. I'll play tomorrow.

I think settling on red would be really helpful...if we can spare the 2-3 archers that it will cost us during my turnset and the next. War with the Dutch is not going to be easy.

Sorry, I wasn't thinking ver clearly this morning. As we are taking 20 turns this set, Simp has another 10 to play. That was just his mid-set post. A lot can happen in 20 turns so posting after 10 is best.

Great news about Tokyo - well done Phaedo & SM for not giving up on 'blue dot'. That puts us in a much better position.

I can play another 10. I just figured that since these turns are pretty crucial, we should all have input. I'll finish up today, unless Elephantium would like to step in.

EDIT: What's our vote about sparing another settler for Red Dot? I think we should go for it, if for no other reason than that we need to have a fourth city to be able to build an army. Closing off the borders would be nice, too. We should wait until Kyoto is big enough to not drop down to pop1, though.

I can play another 10. I just figured that since these turns are pretty crucial, we should all have input. I'll finish up today.

That was absolutly the right decesion:goodjob: . Thank you for that:D . I'd like Tusker and Smart to do the same thing. Of course pause if something critical happens but even if things seem to be running smoothly, please post the log after 10:)

I can play another 10. I just figured that since these turns are pretty crucial, we should all have input. I'll finish up today, unless Elephantium would like to step in.

EDIT: What's our vote about sparing another settler for Red Dot? I think we should go for it, if for no other reason than that we need to have a fourth city to be able to build an army. Closing off the borders would be nice, too. We should wait until Kyoto is big enough to not drop down to pop1, though.

I'd say that is sound thinking; however, wouldn't Tokyo be a better choice to provide the Settler? If we irrigate the beef it will grow every 5 turns, even without a granary.

Getting water to our Tokyo cow will take a chop and two irrigations, plus at least two roads. Not to say that we shouldn't do it, but it's going to take some time. Once we do have those improvements in place, chopping for a cheaper granary, we could theoretically turn Tokyo into a six-turn SF.

Here are my thoughts on our future roading, as well as dot placement. I can see that in my map I put Red Dot 1NW of where Buce did. Now that I've looked at it, I prefer his. But I believe that the rest work. Comments?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/42605/1750BCdotmap.jpg

I would prefer to see yellow dot moved 1 NW to other side of the river. We don't particularly have a need for a coastal town - Tokyo will adequately supply all our future naval needs - and going cxxc would seem preferable for a city 2 removed from the Capital. A lot of the strategy for this game will revolve around our ability to generate gold, which requires a lot of good land being worked.

The other placements work for me, though. Nice work.

Sorry, I wasn't thinking ver clearly this morning. As we are taking 20 turns this set, Simp has another 10 to play. That was just his mid-set post. A lot can happen in 20 turns so posting after 10 is best.

Oh, right. Okay, then I do NOT have it, I'll wait on the rest of SM's turns :)

Edit: What does everyone think of this pattern? We'll get a coastal city to work sea squares with the harbor benefit, plus another city on the river at CxxC from Osaka. The only downside I can think of is the CxCxC pattern on the river near the Dutch horses.

I prefer moving yellow but I'd like to keep it at CxxC for a bit. 1 W on the hill wouldn't wastes and river squares and it would ge a BG in there as well. 1SW would lose a river but pick up a BG. The hill location is probably my preference. If we moverd yellow 1 NW then I'd want to move blue and that would move it off the river

The rest looks great

Actually, I have it not. I gotta play out Apocalypse and then do other household duties. Sorry. Elephantium has it after all.

I'd still rather make the hypothetical yellow dot a coastal city, just so it can do something with those coastal tiles someday. But I'll defer to the clan leader.

I'm open to your new dot as well. It will be a wile before we have to decide so let's give it a think.

I guess you are up Tusker. Are you clear on the plan? What do you think your builds will be?

My plan is to make more archers and warriors, upgrading the warriors to Swords once the iron is hooked up. Should I make a settler for the red dot?

Once workers are done with their current actions, they'll work on our road network (capital to Tokyo, hookup Iron up to all towns in the process)

When are we ready to declare war on the Dutch (and try to rope the Celts into the war)?

Other way around. We want to go to war with the Celts and we need to get the Dutch into it. The plan is to get the Dutch to burn their horses on the Celts while we set up for an invasion of them. Best possible situation is that we never fight a Celt unit

A settler would be nice but I think it's your call. If you do build one, see if you can keep the city that builds it above pop 1.

Good luck

My plan is to make more archers and warriors, upgrading the warriors to Swords once the iron is hooked up. Should I make a settler for the red dot?

Once workers are done with their current actions, they'll work on our road network (capital to Tokyo, hookup Iron up to all towns in the process)

When are we ready to declare war on the Dutch (and try to rope the Celts into the war)?

There wil be no cause to declare on your turnset. If you can concentrate on Worker tasks and military builds for now, that would be good.

If you receive a demand from the AI during your set, cave in to it. We will fight them on our terms and their turf, at a time of our choosing.

Also, we'll need more silks hooked up for bribery. During my turnset I couldn't get anyone to even think about selling us Writing, and we need that embassy to rope the Dutch into our war.

If we have enough military by then we may want to think about sending a concentrated force up north to take a Celt town or two. Brennus might very well be right on our borders at that point, and we might as well take advantage of his lack of resources. We might even get some elites to send against the Dutch when the time comes. We just can't afford to get into any unit-draining slugfests.

No objection in principle but we would need to get the balancing act right; we want the Celts strong enough to ensure that Dutch horses don't return South.

Edit: That said, neither do we want a particularly strong Celts at our back when we commit our forces South, so yes, it may be an idea to factor in to our plans. But I don't think we should take our eye off the ball too much - the Dutch are our logical target at this point.

Agreed. The original plan of sending Willie off to war against Brennus is good. It's a bit touch and go at the moment to see if we can pull it off. The silks ought to help and we can re-negotiate after 20. A lux trade with Willie might be enough for him to go after Brennus naturally.Whatever we do, we are building for war:D

@Phaedo: I just saw that you started this yesterday! Looks like you've already got your five, though, so I'll lurk on this one.

The Dutch are trying to slip a Settler pair past our NE border. Should I try to block them?

Edit: I guessed that it was better to slow them down a bit, so I moved a few non-MP warriors. Anyway, here's the log so far:



Pre-turn:

Nothing, hit enter.

IBT: We see AI troops moving.
Tokyo grows.

Turn 1 (1725 BC):

Explore a bit - we end up next to the Dutch capital.
Ech, Tokyo's new citizen went to a forest tile. I move it to a BG for faster growth (in 7, worker done in 3).

IBT:

The Silk Road is done.
Willy orders our troops out of Dutch land. Our mistake.
A Dutch settler pair is visible a little N of Osaka.

Turn 2 (1700 BC):

Move a Warrior to interfere with the Dutch settler pair's movement.

IBT:

Dutch warn us again. We meekly apologize.
Kyoto: Archer->Archer
Dutch start the Oracle.

Turn 3 (1675 BC):

Move a Warrior from Kyoto to help with the settler pair dance.
Northern explorer-warrior finds Iron and the tip of the northernmost peninsula.

IBT:

Osaka: Warrior->Warrior
Tokyo: Worker->Barracks
Dutch finish the Colossus.

Turn 4 (1650 BC):

Rotterdam's culture borders expand, touching Osaka's.
Move a Warrior to slow down the NEXT settler pair the Dutch will try to sneak past us.
Tokyo-worker 1S to the cow. Oh, Willy has three Warriors fortified on a hill 2N of Ulrecht.

IBT:

Iron Rd is finished.
Tokyo grows. Size 4, 8 spt, citizen happiness is under control.

Turn 5 (1625 BC):

MM Osaka for Warrior in 2 instead of 3.

More to come...

There is nothing wrong with hearding the Dutch and ensuring that they settle in a place that will keep our dot free, but there is no use hearding them if we aren't going to be able to settle the dot. I doubt they will settle next to our borders, but we don't want to risk war. If they have a city near the Celts, that plays into our plan. It gives them a road to Celts, and that's not bad. Remember we need to hook up another silk so we have some bargaining power

@ Elephantium:

Bear in mind that acquiring Writing is integral to our plans; check for a deal every turn, and don't spend any money that you don't have to.

@Norton: Sorry, we did get underway rather quickly. We were all itching to get to it. Glad to have you lurking though:)

Who is up? :)
I'm reading everything now, can take the save if nobody else will do it (Simple Monkey had some problems?)

Who is up? :)
I'm reading everything now, can take the save if nobody else will do it (Simple Monkey had some problems?)

No, SM finished his set; Elephantium is 5 turns in to his set.

Hittites with iron I can live with. Brennus with iron would hurt a lot. I that precious ore deposit safely inside Murray's territory?

Hittites with iron I can live with. Brennus with iron would hurt a lot. I that precious ore deposit safely inside Murray's territory?

Indeed. I think that it must be the Hittite's iron, but if Brennus had it we would need to re-think things.

I guess we'll need to wait for the Pachyderm to post and tell us which it is.

The northernmost iron is unclaimed land so far, but that peninsula is definitely Hittite territory.

@Smart: You are up after Turker's set. Anthing to offer towards the plan to buy Willie into war with Brennus? We need to get writing first, thoughts on how we can do that and still have someting to tepmt Willie into war with?

Turn 5 continued...

IT:

Willy complains about our exploring Warrior. We automove.
Kyoto: Archer->Settler (finished on the same turn as growth to 5)
Dutch start the great Lighthouse.
Dutch move their stack of 3 Warriors 1W, which puts them right next to our cows Worker (they're still outside of our culture borders). They move another Warrior next to our other worker who will be roading between Iron and Tokyo. Perhaps this is a prelude to war?

Turn 6 (1600 BC):

Hittites will sell us Writing for 145+7gpt.
Dutch want 136+7gpt or 154+6gpt
Celts want 145+7gpt

Is it worth taking the Dutch deal, or do we want to go to war sooner than that?

Also, how worried should I be that Willy is about to declare war on us?

nvm ...

I'd say get writing from Murray. With the cash he can consider making Brennus's life more difficult, and we haven't unduly enriched either of our future foes. Once the AI runs out of room they tend to lay the smackdown on whoever's nearest, especially when they only share a border with one other civ and there's nowhere else to go. The question is, can we sweeten the deal with some silks, so as to have more cash on hand to build an embassy?

I still doubt that Willie is that ready to pull the trigger. If he is, we may be able to play defense long enough to snag his horse city before he's put too many rascals on horseback. Doubtful, but going to war now at least means he won't have built up as much military as he could have otherwise.

Or we could just end up picking up our teeth from the pavement and re-rolling a new start.

We can't trade Silks with anyone - we don't have any extra to trade, and even if we did, we don't have trade routes available.

crap. :cringe:

Well, at least we should have trade routes in once we need to put Operation Irish Spring into play.

We make the deal with Mursilis - 145+7gpt for Writing.

IT:

Willy shuffles his troops - they're not invading. His culture borders expand again, though - Osaka will start feeling pressure soon.
Brennus establishes an embassy in Kyoto.

Turn 7 (1575 BC):

Osaka autoswitches to Swordsman, due in 5.

IT:

Willy warns us. We promise to depart.

Turn 8 (1550 BC):

Move a worker N of Tokyo to road - eventual goal is to get water to the cow.
Wow, Celts have over 500gp! They must have sold a tech to Murray.

IT:

Dutch found Haarlem 1S of the Sugar, leaving us rather squeezed for putting a city at the red dot discussed so long ago.

Turn 9 (1525 BC):

Zzz...

IT:

Hittites grumble about our exploring Warrior. We apologize.
Kyoto: Settler->Swordsman
Kyoto expands its culture borders.

Turn 10 (1500 BC):

I start moving the Settler with a Warrior escort to the Plains square 2N and 2NW of Kyoto. I hope it can settle there without interference!

IT:

Hittites complain again. We move automatically.
Celts declare war on the Hittites!

Turn 11 (1475 BC):

To be continued...

The Celtic-Hittite war may be an opportunity. Should we join the war against Brennus? Should we support him somehow until we get Willy going after him?
Or do we ignore these developments until we're ready to make our move?

I'll finish my turnset tomorrow, but I need some discussion before I move forward :)

Note that we only have to road one more square to get a trade route with Willy opened up - it should be done by time I'm done with my turnset.

IMO, it would be best to avoid other people's wars. There is even the possibility that the Dutch may end up involved, which would serve our purpose well.

For the time being we need to develop our military machine - when war starts we won't get a second go at it.

I like the writing deal and Harlem isn't that big a deal. It doesn't stop us from settling where we want once war breaks out. It also puts Willie closer to Brennus, which should make a celtic war more attractive to him.

I'd wait on hooking up a route to Willie until we are ready to maka a trade too. Use the worker turns to make our empire more productive. Once we have an embassy established we can hook him up and try to get him into war (if he isn't already). An early trade route is just an invitation for demands.

BTW, how any archers do we have? And that settler is going to the plains 1NW yea?

I was thinking of settling on the northern coastal plain, right next to the fog.

IIRC, we have four archers. We also have 1-2 vet Warriors waiting on gold for Sword upgrades, along with 3-4 rWarriors scattered around our territory.

I'd try to stay CxxC if you can. My vote is for the more southerly plain.

Sounds like the army is coming together nicely:)

We have a total of 4 archers and 7 warriors (2 of which are vet)

Murray demands 20 gold. We have 13 turns on our gpt deal to him; do we risk telling him to take a hike?

Edit 2: I tell him to get lost (he's far away, so he can't really hurt us). He declares.

This could be interesting. I don't know that we have much to gain from a war with Murray, except maybe some promotions.

Let's see how tough our 4 archers really are. :eek:

Turn 11 continued:

Move the settler pair to its new destination (the closer of the two plains squares)
start roading Silks #2
MM to avoid waste in Osaka.

IT:

We see a Hittite settler moving west towards x and a Dutch settler moving south towards horse-town.

Osaka: Sword->Worker

Turn 12 (1450 BC):

Found Edo on the plain square. Turns out there's desert 2N of that spot, so it's better than the northern of the two plains squares. Excellent call, Phaedo!
Edo starts on a Barracks.
MM Tokyo to finish its rax in 1 turn

IT:

Mursilis demands 20 gold. What, the 7 gpt isn't enough for you? Get lost!
(since the Celts provide a buffer between us, I refuse the demand - he can't hurt us, even though we're now at war.
Hittite warrior dies vs. our northern explorer

Turn 13 (1425 BC):

Tokyo: Barracks->Sword

IT:

Lots of troops move near our northern explorer. He'll probably die soon.

Turn 14 (1400 BC):

I move the northern explorer towards a mountain - he might take a few of them with him if he fortifies there.

IT:

Kyoto: Sword->Sword
Osaka: Worker->Sword

Turn 15 (1375 BC):

Move a few troops, move our fugitive warrior on the mountian.

IT:

Light! Fugitive has 8 foes who will attack him next turn!

Turn 16 (1350 BC):

More troop movements, start some roads near Osaka.

IT:

chop finishes, 10 shields to Osaka.
One Hittite archer kills The Fugitive.

Turn 17 (1325 BC):

Upgrade one vWarrior to vSword
Start irrigating the BG revealed by the forest chop
2nd silks are online, move worker to connect Edo to our road network

IT:

Celts complete The Oracle.
Dutch start The Pyramids
Greeks finish The SoZ

Turn 18 (1300 BC):

Start the Edo road.

IT:

Kyoto: Sword->Sword
Mayans complete Pyramids.

Turn 19 (1275 BC):

Move workers to speedily irrigate to the cows

IT:

Celts start ToA
Hittites start ToA
Greeks complete The Great Wall

Turn 20 (1250 BC):

Start two workers roading. Irrigation is done on the IT; have that worker finish the road next turn, then the other two workers can irrigate the square 1N of Tokyo.

We have enough gold to build an embassy with the Dutch.
Our military forces stand at
5 Warriors (1 vet)
4 Archers (all vet)
4 Swords (all vet)
...with two more swords due next turn and a third due in 3.
Murray still isn't willing to talk, but we haven't seen any sign of him since he killed The Fugitive.

This is an interesting situation. Let's hope Murray won't buy the Dutch in against us before we can ally him against Brennus.

Nice work on the 4th city. My reasons for the closer of the dots was that we don't really want to expand too much right now (at least in terms of territory). Stying within reinforcement distance is more important. Building closer to the enemy just gives us more culture pressure.

Our army seems to be coming along nicely. :)

Phaedo
Bucephalus
Elephantium
Simple Monkeyon deck
SmartUP

Smart has 20 turns left inthis round and Simp is owed 10. I suggest that Simp takes his turn in between Smart's. After that we will be back to 10 apiece.

I'm up in SM4 for today, I'll try to play my turns tomorrow :)

Excellent. I also didn't notice at first that Murray just saved us 90g by cutting off our trade deal. Thank you, hairy-faced friend.

Smart 10, me 10, and then Smart 10 works for me.

Looks like we're coming along nicely.

Sorry Phaedo, I got your PM, but I'm really busy right now, skip me till Tuesday plz :(

No worries. Simp, you're up:)

I'm also up in Great Game and Apocalypse, so it'll be a day or so before I get to this one, but stand by. I'm pretty sure I can play it before Smart comes back on Tuesday.

See Out of Pocket thread. Hope to be back at some point. :(

Well. I guess it looks like I got it. I'll look at the save and try to post some thoughts tonight.

I think we might need some extra players too so I'm going to invite some people. If any of you guys have suggestions PM me:)

Looking at the save, there's not really much we can do. I can build an embassy and be left with 27g and +13gpt. Not quite sure what Willie will need for an alliance. The dyes will help but I have feeling we will need some cash too.

We currently have 4 vSwords and 4 vArchers with 2 more swords coming out next turn. What are the team's thoughts about changing the Edo build from a rax to a dinghy? I think that as much as we are heading to war, we really need to make contact with the other continent as quickly as we can.

I also wonder about new cities. We could get a couple in although they would get a fair bit of cultural pressure. I think it's best to wait but it wouldn't hurt considering it.

Finally, I was wondering what the team's thought are about walls. As we push East with our main force, Edo and Tokyo will be a bit vulnerable. Walls might help hold them. Of course the units are a more flexible investment. I forsee Edo taking some heat from the Celts though so a build there might be worth it.

Willie and Brennus have a pile of cash, Willie with 118g and Brennus with 448. The lux will help get Willie in the war but are we ever going to have enough cash?

Looking at the save, there's not really much we can do. I can build an embassy and be left with 27g and +13gpt. Not quite sure what Willie will need for an alliance. The dyes will help but I have feeling we will need some cash too.

Build the Embassy first, then see what Willie wants for a MA against Hittites; there's no point in DOW Celts when we are already at war with the Hittites, is there? It's usually fairly cheap to get someone in to a dogpile - or at least it seems that way, and there are good reasons to MA Hittites - it takes Dutch horses even further from our territory, and the Hittites might cause some casualties if they hook up that Iron.

We currently have 4 vSwords and 4 vArchers with 2 more swords coming out next turn. What are the team's thoughts about changing the Edo build from a rax to a dinghy? I think that as much as we are heading to war, we really need to make contact with the other continent as quickly as we can.

I think Swords are the best investment right now, surely? It's going to take a good while to build up enough to give us a good chance of victory.

I also wonder about new cities. We could get a couple in although they would get a fair bit of cultural pressure. I think it's best to wait but it wouldn't hurt considering it.

The unit support would be nice, but it's also one more to defend.

Finally, I was wondering what the team's thought are about walls. As we push East with our main force, Edo and Tokyo will be a bit vulnerable. Walls might help hold them. Of course the units are a more flexible investment. I forsee Edo taking some heat from the Celts though so a build there might be worth it.

I think they would be a good investment if we can't get Willie's horses away to the North; if they won't MA, we will need to do this the hard way, and walls then would be good.

If Willie does send his horses North though, I'd say not.

It seems to me that the team could change Operation Irish Spring to Operation (3-Man) Chariots of Fire, and let Murray take the heat from Willie's horses. BTW, does he have horses to build his fearsome chariots? If Willie does what the AI always does once they get into a fight, he'll send his horses in scattered groups of ones and twos up north to be slaughtered and never stop until peace comes. Once you all pull the okey-dokey on him and turn traitor (after the 20 turn alliance is up, of course), he'll be way out of position. You'll probably never see a single Hittite archer.

My thought is that a dinky boat would be a good investment, however much a priority vet swords are. Contacts would help a lot with techs.

I'd personally avoid walls unless the enemy is approaching the gates.

Well. I guess it looks like I got it. I'll look at the save and try to post some thoughts tonight.

I think we might need some extra players too so I'm going to invite some people. If any of you guys have suggestions PM me:)

If your initial invitation still stands, I'll be happy to join.

That's great! I was actually going to PM you but the fact that you've been lurking makes it that much easier:). Weclome aboard. The only thing that you relly need to know that's not in the posts is that we are hoping for lots of participation. Care to take the next 10?

Thanks! You might be able to take this set before I can--I still have to play my set in CBob01, which I'll do tomorrow afternoon. I can get this one Tuesday or Wednesday, so if you can play before that, go ahead, and I'll take the one after that.

Although i could take it tomorrow, I'd rather you take it Norton. However, before you do, check out the save and weigh in on the dinghy build vs. rax in Edo. We are looking more for participation and reliability than speed here:).

Personally, although I agree in principal that that the more swords the better, I wonder if an 8ish turn delay on one of them isn't a bad chance to take for a boat. My success at DG has always been by making early contact. Assuming our plan works and we make a good dent on the Dutch and work our way up tech-wise, it would be nice to have trade options rather than find ourselves still behind with no options. Is 1/3 of a sword going to overcome that? I truely don't know.

@Simp, thanks for keeping in on the discussion. Stay involved and there will always be a place for you in this game:D

All right, I'll take it either tomorrow or Thursday--which is what I meant in my previous post since I had yesterday off and was thinking that it was Sunday. :blush:

As for curragh vs. rax in Edo, how about we build one in Tokyo after the sword finishes instead? That'll take 6 turns total vs. 7 in Edo. Also, it might not hurt to have a couple more workers, especially since all our cities are working at least one unimproved tile right now. In fact, maybe we should switch the rax in Edo to a worker and maybe pump a worker out of Kyoto so we don't have to raise the lux slider yet.

It also looks like we can get masonry from Willie for 8 gpt and 7 gold or from Brennus for 8 gpt and 13 gold. The plan right now is to try to get an alliance with the Dutch against the Hittites, right? Once the embassy's set up, I'll see what Willie needs for that. If we can't get one, should we buy masonry from Brennus? It'll let us build walls and put us on track toward cats. It's a little cheaper from Willie, but without an alliance, we might not want to be locked into 20 turns of peace. Also, how many swords do we want for the war? I'd say 15 minimum--20 would be better, of course, but unit support might become a problem at that point.

I was thinking Edo because Tokyo already has a rax and Edo is yet to get one. I don't think we actually have a consensus on a boat build yet. Thinking about the number of swords we want is a good way to resolve it though. I would guess 15 would be minimum and enough if there was about 4:1 sword to archers in the mix. I like the archers for that defensive shot to protect the stack.

The masonary option is an interesting one. I think it is probably worth getting if only so we can get Math rather than masonary once we eventually sue for peace. The more 1st tier techs we get, the more 2nd tier ones we can get in the war. Assuming of course that we will be successful.

Before we go further, I'd like to get a consensus on boats. I don't have incredibly strong feelings but these are my thoughts.

I was thinking that as a boat is pretty cheap, I didn't see how an 8ish turn delay on a final sword could make or break our plan. Perhaps an immediate boat isn't necessarily the proper call, but getting one out there to explore the West coast of the continent and possible make a suicide run west could help us significantly.

We are obviously quite a bit behind on techs and assuming everything comes off, we'll catch up quite a bit on tech with a smack-down on Willie. However, once we do that, we'll only get the techs next in line and the civs we know already know each other so there won't really be any trading opportunities. I thought that if we could make contact while we were setting up and implimenting the paln, we could be in a position to really take advantage of the tech winfall that comes with peace. Even if we couldn't take advantage of it immediately, we would know which techs to pay a premium for and get our money back.

Against this I see a number of arguments.
1) A suicide run will fail as often as not with one boat and maybe more often than not depending on the distance.
2) I don't really know what to expect war-wise so I don't have a good sense to know how many units we need, meaning that the 8-turn lag could make the difference between success and failure.
3) the boat will hurt our unit support and could take valuable gold away from an offensive unit.

Despite, these concens, my gut feel is that we should try to squeeze at least one outwhile we are building up our forces.

I'd build the boat for all the reasons that Phaedo lists. There are too many second tier techs to miss out on when peace does come around. The offensive against Willie is going to have its most decisive action at the start, with the assault on Horsetown. With that accomplished, and the last of his horsemen slaughtered, you can take a more leisurely approach to expanding your real estate holdings.

Assume victory.

Let's build the boat. We need those contacts.

Thanks for the input. I feel we are back into it:D

The next set is Norton's. and here's the revised roster:
We are on 10-turn sets now

Phaedo on deck
Bucephalus
Elephantium
NortonIIup
Smart skipping


@Norton: you just finished a very successful set in Cbob's game so I'd like to give you a bit of time. If you don't think you can take it soon we can switch this round:)

I'm not convinced about building boats but I'll go with the majority view; I feel that 1 Curragh - and surely that's all we can afford to build - will have less impact at this stage than an extra Sword, bearing in mind that we are lacking Artillery.

If we lose the upcoming war, then what use will contacts be?

All right, then; I'll play it tomorrow. I'll build the boat in Edo, swords everywhere else, and sneak in a worker or two (more workers=more roads=more money). Probably won't be ready for war after 10 turns, but we will be closer.

I saw your post this morning and have thought about it all day Norton. I'm inclined to think you are right about a worker. In fact, when it comes down to it, although I started the discussion about a boat, if we are all comfortable with a short postponment in a sword, the worker probably should be a much higher priority than a boat. Although I am still for squeezing out a boat, why don't you just go for 1 worker in addition to swords in your set. Willie could turn on us at any moment and if he does, a set of worker/boat builds might do us in. Knowing that we have a consensus on boats is great and if we get chance to build one we should take it, but I don't think we should ever have more than one city on non-sword builds until we have Willie under control (mening that we have deprived him of horses). If our goal is 15-20 swords (which I think is a good one) remember that we only have 6 swords right now. If you build the worker before the boat, maybe Tokyo is the best place as it will recover relatively quickly and Edo can continue on the rax.

Also keep in mind that we are a 3-turn road away from offering Willie a spice (or was it a dye?) to sweeten the war deal. The down side is that if he doesn't take it, he will probably demand it or declare war. I think once you build the embassy we will only have 27g in the bank with 13gpt. Maybe that wourker should get out and start increasing our cash before we connect.

For the record, I played a couple of shadow sets from Simp's save and while I could take the horses, I always lost Tokyo. I never played more than 5 turns and didn't get any spoiler info but he has A LOT of units. We will need to keep some units back for defense before we send all our units in a stack anywhere.

As a final note: I'm really glad to have you aboard. I respect both your playing and your insight. I learned a lot from you in the Cbob game. Although this game has a definate strategy, we have had some early shake ups in the roster so the current team is still feeling each other out. I don't think we are all thinking the same way about achieving our goal yet so just be aware of that in your set. We are not rushing towards a goal so if a decesion comes up that commits the game to a course, I'd appreciate it if you could pause to test the waters of the team. I ask this because we haven't really gelled yet as a team so until we are all on the same page, let's not assume what other members would want.:)

OK then, maybe a worker in Edo first, followed by a curragh, swords in the other cities.

Now, what are the priorities for spending our money? As I understand it, we'll want an embassy first, followed by an alliance with the Dutch vs. the Hittites if we can afford it, then a tech (preferably masonry). When I start my set in a couple of hours, I'll build the embassy, then find out what an alliance costs and post it.

I think those priorities are right on target. Good luck with the aliance though;)

Well, I set up the embassy, and an alliance vs. the Hittites isn't even an option--they haven't met yet! (@Phaedo: Is that what you meant by "good luck"?) This being the case, I think our best move is to buy masonry from Brennus and keep pumping out swords (I haven't done anything else yet, though). Also, this is what the embassy revealed in Amsterdam:
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p196/Norton_II/amsterdam.jpg

Capturing the Great Lighthouse might be nice, but the Colossus won't be much use to us that far from Kyoto.

but the Colossus won't be much use to us that far from Kyoto.

It would be perfect if it had the FP though, especially if we get a MGL.

Yea, that's what I meant by Good luck. I opened the save a while ago and tried it against the Celts (never thought to try it against the Hittites though). We are WAY behind everyone. It is the challenge that makes this beast interesting:)

Welcom to the suck:). We have quite a challenge. That's also what I meant by saying that we have a strategy but we don't know quite how to do it. Our challenge is getting the Dutch into the war to burn their horses so we can take their their land. Having said that, your suggestion about a worker makes much more sense when compared to my boat suggestion eh?:). At the end of the day , our goal is to deplete Willie of his horses so we can attack him.

I downloaded the save and tried some stuff. As I said, I didn't think about Murry but the Dutch wouldn't go against Brennus for all the defecit spending we could give. We have those dyes in reserve, but realistically, at the moment they won't be enough to buy him into a war. We need more cash (which is why I think the worker is a much better call than my boat suggestion). The truth is though, our plan of buying Willie into a war may not work. That means going at him ourselves. It is truely unfortunate that we are at war with Murry because he makes us an easy target (sorry Tusker, but this is your bad). Now, buying Willie into a nice (for him) gpt for dyes might help us pull off our plan. Maybe we should hook up a deal with Willie to intice him not to attack us and make war with Brennus more enticing. He will be going to war shortly, we just have to make sure it is not with us. Any enemy will do.

And glad you are on the team for the discussion cuz it aint cut and dried

Don't sweat on Willie; if we can't get him to send his Horses North, we will have to change our battle tactics by setting up a kill zone around the Iron hill and the adjacent mountain. But I feel it worth repeating - we need swords not contacts; sure, we will be playing catch-up, but that is always the way with zero science. A well developed empire built on prime grassland has more than enough potential to generate the cash we'll need, and that's what Willie has.

Unfortunately, we can't do resource deals yet--no trade route. I'll get one worker to hook up a road to Rotterdam, assuming the Dutch don't beat me to it. Then I'll see how much Willie will give us for our surplus silks. Meanwhile, I'm going to buy masonry from Brennus; hopefully that'll keep him off our backs, at least.

First off, the save: 148642

Summary: I've got good news and bad news.
The good news: We're still alive, our military is now average compared to everyone, and we're likely to be at peace with both our immediate neighbors for a while. Also, the Hittites will talk to us now.
The bad news: The Hittites are now at peace with the Celts, they're demanding gold and gpt from us for peace, and we couldn't trade silks with Willie because he demanded them as soon as the road to Rotterdam was finished (on the IBT, I mean). Also, our "average" military is costing us 8 gpt.

Preflight:
-change rax in Edo to worker
-build embassy in Amsterdam for 35 gold
-Dutch haven't met Hittites, so no alliance
-buy masonry from Celts for 8 gpt and 13 gold
IBT:
-Osaka sword->sword(8);Tokyo sword->sword(10)
1: send worker toward Rotterdam to establish trade route
IBT:
-Willie asks us to leave; we apologize and promise to do so (crosses fingers behind back)
-Edo worker->worker(10)
2: nothing
IBT:
-Kyoto sword->sword(4)
-Copan finishes Great Lighthouse--so much for capturing it
3: Hittites want 28 gold and 4 gpt for peace--not happening
IBT: nada
4: zip
IBT:
- the very second the road to Rotterdam is finished, Willie demands silks!:mad: ; guess I should've known--we cave, of course
-Tokyo grows to 6, will riot next turn
5:
-raise lux to 10%--gpt drops from 7 to 4!
-Hittites want 2 gpt and 41 gold now--better, but no dice
IBT: cow now irrigated
6: zip
IBT: Kyoto sword->sword(4)
7: zilch
IBT: Tokyo sword->sword(6)
8: zero
IBT:
-crap! Hittites and Celts sign peace
-Osaka sword->sword(8)
-Celts start MoM
9: bupkus
IBT: Kyoto grows to 7, will riot next turn
10:
-make clown in Kyoto to prevent riots after dropping lux to 0--5 gpt
-Murry will sign peace for 3 gpt and 46 gold--guess I should've signed earlier

So, as I said, good news and bad. Notes:
-I figured giving in to the Dutch demand for silks was a no-brainer--we're not ready for war yet, and in my experience, the AI usually means business when it demands a resource. We're locked in to 14 more turns of peace with Willie, which should be enough time to prepare for war with him.
-The worker in Edo is 2 turns from completion, so if we decide it's better to build a dinky, a rax, or whatever, we can change it.
-Unit support is becoming a big issue, and happiness is now an issue in Kyoto. Should we pop out a settler and build a junk city in the desert/plains area near Haarlem?
-I'm afraid that the price for peace with Mursilis might go up even more now that he and Brennus are at peace and he can rebuild his military. Maybe it would be best to sign now.

What, we should've caved in to the demand of 20 gold for the privilege of continuing to pay Murray 7gpt?

I really didn't think it would be a problem; even if he declared, he was separated from us by the Celts. Then again, I didn't think there'd be any problem with negotiating a quiet little peace treaty around now, either. :(

Good decisions, Norton.

Hittites will give peace for free once we've killed the dribs and drabs that come our way.

And as for Willie - well, the Sicilians have a proverb: "Vengence is a dish best served cold."

Learning to grit one's teeth and cave when needed is one of the steps required to play at higher levels.

Well done.

What, we should've caved in to the demand of 20 gold for the privilege of continuing to pay Murray 7gpt?

In a nutshell - yes.

When you refused to cave to Mursilis, you didn't know that he hadn't met Willie; having Willie allied against us at that time would have finished us.

As it is, it almost certainly influenced Willie in his demands for silks.

If we can manage to squeeze out the odd Settler, it would be good, but lets not waste them; we will have Dutch land to fill soon enough.

Good decisions, Norton.

Hittites will give peace for free once we've killed the dribs and drabs that come our way.

And as for Willie - well, the Sicilians have a proverb: "Vengence is a dish best served cold."

Learning to grit one's teeth and cave when needed is one of the steps required to play at higher levels.

Well done.

Thanks. The way I saw it, caving to Willie's demand had the same basic effect as a trade would have had--keeping him from attacking us until we want a war and are ready to win one. The only downside is that we're not getting anything in exchange--of course, if he were paying us gpt and wanted to stop, he might attack us anyway.

If we can manage to squeeze out the odd Settler, it would be good, but lets not waste them; we will have Dutch land to fill soon enough.
True, but the question is whether we can support an army large enough to take on the Dutch with only four cities. Right now, we can build 5 more units and still break even. Assuming we build a worker or a curragh in Edo, that's 4 more swordsmen, for a total of 14--probably not enough. In 10 turns, we don't have to pay Brennus 8 gpt anymore, but we might want to buy another tech. Another city would let us afford 5 more swords (4 free unit support and 1 gold), so IMO it's worth considering.

Another city would let us afford 5 more swords (4 free unit support and 1 gold), so IMO it's worth considering.

I would only consider it worthwhile if the timing works out; realistically, I think we will need to take out Willie's horsemen ourselves, and this won't happen now for twenty turns or so. If we can spit out 2 settlers in that time without disrupting sword manufacture then I'd say we could afford to put one down now; but having at least one settler available to snare those horses, in the 2nd phase of the upcoming war, would be a priority IMO.

I was pretty busy yesterdau so I couldn't give a lot of input, sorry. Consider this my "got it." I'll look at the save and post some thoughts. I like the idea of another city. If I recall, there might be some room down south, but I'll take a closer look at the save and post a dot map if I can think of anything other than a desert town.

Nice set Norton and helpful input too:D

Possible city locations?

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/3dotsrage.jpg

I put it in for the sake of discussion but the purple dot makes me rather nervous.

The aqua and red dots are a bit close to Willie's border but I think they would survive for a bit.

Personally, I like the red dot. I realize it would be under some cultureal pressure, but that would go down as it grows and there is plenty of land to help it grow. We could even get it working the cow for a bit to get the pop up. The reason I like it most is that it is on a hill. If we end up going against Willie solo, a stack of troops on the mountain and red would be a nice defence. If we could chop the frost 1NE of the dot, attackers wouldn't have any defence bonus. Most importantly, it puts all the hills in our bordes so Willie can't use them effectively to launch an attack against us.

The Auqua dot doesn't really give us anything of immediate benefit. It would only face attackers from the south (realtively corrupt cities for Willie). At the end of the day, it's just a relatively solid location so once, we clear out Willie a bit it could stand as a city with potential.

For my set, I intend to keep pumping out the swords, get Kyoto on a settler and settle it when we decide on a place. If we are going at the Dutch, I think we need at least 20 swords to go at it in order to have enough firepower to hurt him and defend ourselves.

On the up side, it seems no one has iron yet:). Muurry will eventually hook it up but ironless Brennus is a relief.

What troubles me most about adding new cities at present, is that it will broaden our front-line.

Before we can send a stack to Holland we will need to neutralise a lot of horses, and we can do that by drawing them to a killing zone set up around our Iron; as things stand they would almost certainly be drawn there.

That said, providing that, a) it was connected by road to Osaka by way of the hill to the North, and b) the trees were deforested (use the chop for walls, maybe rax), I could see it fitting in to that plan.

Edit: Sorry, that's not clear - I was referring to the red dot.

Caving in to ridiculous AI demands isn't something I'm in the habit of doing - I guess I have a lot to learn about higher-level play.

Caving in to ridiculous AI demands isn't something I'm in the habit of doing - I guess I have a lot to learn about higher-level play.

No worries; you just need to be aware that the AI is less forgiving of mistakes at this level. We don't have the luxury of being able to change strategy too much at this stage, so we need things to progress in our chosen direction, at our chosen speed.

Think long-term; nothing really gets hurt by these demands - only our pride.

Gotcha. Check my pride at the door ;)

If nothing else, this game is a fantastic learning experience for me!

Gotcha. Check my pride at the door ;)

If nothing else, this game is a fantastic learning experience for me!

Nothing teaches like experience. :)

Don't get me wrong, the AI is just as stupid at Deity as it is at Chieftan; the only difference is the bonuses it gets, and these are felt most keenly in the early game.

We need to be 30 or 40% more efficient than them, just to break even, and it takes time to catch up to that. In the meantime, avoiding getting dog-piled is something of a priority, and if that means kissing butt occasionally, then that's what we'll do. If it offends your pride, try doing what I do - bear a grudge; I get great satisfaction avenging a 2,000 year old insult. :lol:

Earlier this month Bucephalus PMed me and invited me to join this game. I refused, due to too many SGs. Phaedo has recently PMed me and also invited me to join. I still have the same number of SGs, but two of these (CBob01 and Whomp05) will be done soon, so I will have time to participate in this SG, if the current players are agreeable to my inclusion.

Regardless of inclusion, I did take a few minutes to do a brief anaylsis of the current in-game situation.


1000 BC Analysis

Despotism (10.0.0)
58 gold, +5 gpt
Mysticism (-- turns)

City Orders

Kyoto (7) vSword in 1, zero growth
Osaka (4) vSword in 7, grows in 4
Toyko (4) vSword in 4, grows in 1
Edo (1) worker in 2, grows in 2


City Builds

vSword [3] (Kyoto, Osaka and Toyko)
worker [1] (Edo)


Luxuries enjoyed

Silks (2 connected, one traded to Netherlands)


Strategic Resources available

Iron (1 connected)


Military Units

Workers 05
Warrior 05
Archer 04
Swords 10
Support

Total 24
Allowed 16
Support 08 gpt



Military Comparison

Average compared to Netherlands (Despotism)
Average compared to Hittites (Despotism)
Average compared to Celts (Despotism)


Diplomacy

At Peace with Netherlands (Willie)
At War with Hittites (Murray)
At Peace with Celts (Brenny)


Long Term Goal
Get to space by not studying (Buy and steal the smarts to get ahead!)

Mid Term Goal
Somehow trick Willie into a war with Murray and while Willie's units are up north attack Willie's land, first to deny him Horses and second to capture his cities.

Short Term (next turnset) Goals
Not sure.

Notes
Didn't check the wonder races, sorry. And all my analysis does is just reorder the game information into a different format. I find it helpful (for me) since it forces me to examine the entire game before moving on.

While the chief Samuri tells us we are only average compared to everyone, the advantage is actually ours. The AI can only react; it cannot plan and exploit. And Bucephalus' plan is a good one; it ought to work.

I'm not really sure why you guys are waiting. I have to think you could take willie's horses now - he's got probably his starting warriors, 2 spears per town, 4-5 archers and 4-5 horseys.

If you park a sword or a spear on the mountain/Hill south of Osaka, and one south of Tokyo, his horseys will impale themselves on your swords/archers in tokyo, and you can take the warriors/archers after that. It will be a little hairy for a turn or two, but you'll be able to have 80-85% of your military concentrated on some 50-60% of his - you should be able to cripple his SOD, then take his horses.

Just one lurkers opinion, of course ;)

@CommandoBob: No objections here.
@AT: That's worth considering if we can get Willie to declare--he demanded silks from us 6 turns back, and ruining our trading rep is not a good idea in a zero science game.

Welcome CBob!

Superb analysis as always.

@AT: Norton is correct; Willie will get his - just as soon as our rep is safe.

note to the next player:

Kyoto is currently making 9 shields, meaning 6 wasted shields on a 4 turn Sword; if we switch a citizen to working a forest tile, we will have 3 turn Swords with a food defecit of 1 per turn. This can be sustained for sufficient turns for a worker to mine a grassland tile before we see starvation.

We have 14 turns left of our deal with Willie, at which time we will have close to 20 Swords. IMO, that will give us enough to go with - horses or no horses.

It would help preparation if the hill adjacent to 'Iron-hill' is roaded.

Any thoughts?

Welcome Cbob! Glad to have you aboard.

Well, I was thinking of taking it, but as you've signed up Cbob, why don't you take it.:)

Your state of the empire posts are nicely ordered and helpful, not to mention the detail of your logs and your snazzy city names:).

As to a quick war, I like it:D. Just for the record, notice that Rotterdam is at pop 1. It looks like Willie has been pop rushing horses so we will see them immediately. The possibility for 3 turn swords makes it quite viable. I like ATs suggestion of a couple of spears. I am concerned with the upkeep issue. We will get an extra 10gpt in 10 turns which will give us out 20 swords and a couple of spears. It does of course prevent us from buying any tech.

Once we MM Kyoto, we'll get 5 swords in 15 turns, which means we just need the other 3 cities to build 5 swords in 14 turns. It seems to me (without actually crunching the nubers) that we can at least get out 1 settler (ideally 2). If we are only going to build the one, it should be later as we will want one in reserve when war starts and there's no need to eat up upkeep for a settler to lie around and do nothing.

I think, if we were relly careful about worker turns, we could convert Kyoto to a 3-turn sword pump, road the two hills with the two farm miners( with the two farm miners), chop the forests East of the Red dot (with the worker who is mining NE of Osaka after he finishes) and have a city planted there (with Tokyo changing to a settler now) 2 turns from pop 3 with walls at the end of 14 turns. Perhaps, this is overly ambitious but it's a solid location for a city (once we raze Rotterdam we settle on the horse), would be well set up to take horse attacks (even be a true kill zone as they would lose movement crossing the river) and prevent Willie from attacking from a hill.

The down side of this plan of course is Tokyo. How do we defend 3 cities? It makes ATs ratio a little different. The thing is, with the present setup, Willies horses will happily attack any units we have on the hill SE of Tokyo from the hill East of it. Norton's desert city is a much safer plan (it could be a 1 specialist city working a grass giving us 5 or 6 units at the current rate).

All that being said, I think if we can put a spear (and maybe an archer) on the Mt and 2 hills S of Osaka, we can control his access and have a very effective kill zone. Moreover, Tokyo and the red dot can quite easily defend against any threats coming from Willie's corrupt South with relatively few troops. We can take the land East of us with the fur (which is really rightfully ours anyway;) ), relegate Willie to trundra and then look North. We would still have 2 workers to improve other parts of our empire and possibly 1 more (if we don't change the build) and have the unit support to have the extra 3 spears and an archer with 1gpt (and the gold that accumulates before we max out on unit support). It is a risk, but I think the benefits make it worth it I think. It means VERY careful builds and preparation of course, butI think we have the team to do it:)

It does of course prevent us from buying any tech.

I don't really think this is an issue; a succesful war against Willie will provide us with techs for peace, with a rinse and repeat giving us any more he has 20 turns later. Anything that we buy now would be a waste of gold; think of Willie as 'The Great Library' - and 20 Swords gets us membership. ;)

Fair enough. A 20-turn lag (for us to builod infrastructure and set up for the next one) is exchange for multiple tech. I'll buy that. Just for the record, once war stabilizes, I'd like to start the suicide boats;). Then the war spoils have even greater possible value.

Thoughts on another city vs. straight out war prep?

I'd like to start the suicide boats;). Then the war spoils have even greater possible value.

Thoughts on another city vs. straight out war prep?

We could pop rush boats from any coastal cities we capture - kill two birds with one stone.

I refer you to my previous comments re your red-dot placement.

I refer you to my previous comments re your red-dot placement.

I was thinking I took that into account with the worker proposal. I wasn't sure if war with Willie in 14 turns changed that.

The next set will have to put it in motion or not so we should all be on the same page before a plan is put into effect

I was thinking I took that into account with the worker proposal. I wasn't sure if war with Willie in 14 turns changed that.

The next set will have to put it in motion or not so we should all be on the same page before a plan is put into effect

See what the others think; it doesn't broaden the front too much.

Red dot sounds good to this utter newb :)

I like the looks of Red Dot for defense -- you can even hold a hill across a river against a Deity AI unit onslaught. For future production, you miss out on being able to build a harbor and use the coastal tiles effectively, but that's not a consideration at the moment. I still like this team's odds.

Red dot looks pretty good, especially with walls. Cutural pressure won't be an issue once we raze Rotterdam, but a temple might not hurt once the walls are up.

I think, if we were relly careful about worker turns, we could convert Kyoto to a 3-turn sword pump, road the two hills with the two farm miners( with the two farm miners), chop the forests East of the Red dot (with the worker who is mining NE of Osaka after he finishes) and have a city planted there (with Tokyo changing to a settler now) 2 turns from pop 3 with walls at the end of 14 turns. Perhaps, this is overly ambitious but it's a solid location for a city (once we raze Rotterdam we settle on the horse), would be well set up to take horse attacks (even be a true kill zone as they would lose movement crossing the river) and prevent Willie from attacking from a hill.
I'll examine this in detail and plan out worker turns when I get home. I know we have five workers but I have no idea where they are or what they are doing.

Off the top of my head, it takes 6WT to road a hill, so if we ganged two workers together they could road one hill in a net of 4 turns (Turn 1: move onto hill; Turns 2, 3 and 4: road, road again and complete road). To road two hills would take 8 turns, using just two workers. Chopping a forest is 4WT; two forests, then 8 WT.

If we could get three workers making roads they could be completed in a net of 3 turns each. Build Red Dot City and the two forest tiles become ours. Split the workers to the forests; when the first forest is cleared one worker makes a road, the other goes to help clear the other forest and then those two make a road. I think both roads would complete at the same time.

With two workers, starting next turn, we could have the road to Red Dot completed in 8 turns and build a city on turn 9. Putting a worker to each forest tile will chop both forests in 5 turns (one to move; four to chop), which will not allow roads to be built on the former forest tiles. The chops complete on turn 14, which leaves our workers a little bit exposed and isolated in Red Dot City.

We might be able to improve the chopped forest tiles before the Willie War begins. I would like to improve them with roads first, to allow faster unit movement into Wille Land.

This is just a rough outline; knowing how close our workers are to completing their current tasks will help a lot in determining what to do.

At the end of turn 14/start of turn 15 we declare war. Do we expect Willie to try to bully us for something at that point? That is, would Willie declare on us on that IBT, while some of our workers are exposed to his units?

You are totally right CB. When I was planning out the turns I was thinking 12 turns for the mine. There shouldn't be a need for wasted turns at all.

Willie is getting silks from us (hence the 14 turn wait) so he shouldn't be in too much of a hurry to attack us. In the best of all possible worlds, he'll get feisty and go at one of the other AI, but I don't think that will happen.

Here are my thoughts on worker moves for the next turnset, focused on roading to Red Dot City and chopping the forests nearby.

1000 BC Worker Moves
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/Phaedo2/1000BC_WorkerMovesTrimmedDotted.jpg

Workers A and B will finish their mine this IBT. Worker C needs two turns; Workers D and E both need three turns.

Workers A and B would move together to the Light Blue Dot. Worker C would arrive onto the Pinkish Dot a turn before Worker D. Worker E would stay north of the river and mine the grassland 1W of his present location (not highlighted on the map).

Toyko would switch to a settler and it would build Red Dot City. After it was built, Workers A, B, C and D would move to chop the forests and then road the exposed ground. With two chops feeding into Red Dot City, we could quickly build a wall (and waste part of the chop) or build a barracks first, let the chop help complete the barracks (maybe) and then start the walls.

We could also stagger the chops so as not to waste the shields. If we worked one forest for five turns and chopped the other, we can build walls in five turns with no loss. Then chop the other forest to add to the barracks. Not sure which is better; barracks first, then walls or walls then barracks.

Just to be safe, I think walls -> barracks would be the way to go.

1000 BC Worker Moves in Excel
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/Phaedo2/1000BC_WorkerMovesExcel.jpg

This is just a spread sheet detailing the moves and build orders for the next few turns. I'm not sure how quickly Toyko could bounce back and did not check to see how far along Osaka is on the current sword build. Edo is somewhat a wild card after it completes this worker; build barracks? The Edo worker (Worker F) would improve around Edo; might send Worker E to help after he finishes his assigned mine on Turn 8.

From the spreadsheet I see that Red Dot City will have 4 turns to build to something before the first chop is done. I think this clearly points to making a wall first and staggering the chops. Could build a road in the grassland west of Red Dot City to keep a worker pair close by and productive as we stagger the chops.

So, if this seems to be a workable plan, what do we build in Red Dot City and Edo?

Looks good Cbob:goodjob: ! The only thing I would add is that we need 1 more grass mined around Kyoto (in addition to the workers A & B square) and we have about 10 turns to do it before starvation to get our 3-turn swords. I think that should be worker F's first job. He will be able to do the square 1NE of Kyoto in 9 (if my count is right). After that he can go back to Edo. Edo is without a doubt our lower priority.

Also, if you could take a few peeks across Willie's border with a warrior or two to see what you can see, it would be nice. t might also be a good idea to keep a unit on the mountain as a long-range lookout.


This is getting exciting:D

Despotism (10.0.0)
58 gold (+5 gpt)
Mysticism (-- turns)

Nothing to change; Kyoto will build a vSword this IBT.
But, by switching a citizen from a grassland to a dye, we increase our gpt by +2.
I still hold back and will start running a negative food in Kyoto next turn.

Hit Enter.


Kyoto vSword -> vSword, 3 turns (and the food shortage begins).

[I] 1 0975 BC

Workers A and B finish their mine and move 3SE.
New Sword 2SE and 1S, crossing the river.

Toyko vSword -> Settler, 3 turns.


Edo worker (F) -> worker, 10 turns (can be switched).

Two Dutch settler pairs are northeast of Osaka, in no mans land.

[I] 2 0950 BC

Workers A and B 2S and 1SE, arriving on the hill south of Osaka.
WorkerC moves to the hill 2S of Osaka.
WorkerF moves to the grassland 1NE of Kyoto.
New sword moves to the hill with WorkerC.


Tokyo settler -> vSword, 6 turns.

Egypt completes the Mausoleum of Mausollos in Thebes.

One Dutch settler pairs tresspasses; the other vanishes.

[I] 3 0925 BC

Workers A and B build a road.
WorkerC begins a road.
WorkerD moves and joins WorkerC.
WorkerE moves 1W and begins to mine a grassland.
WorkerF begins to mine a grassland.
SettlerToRedDot moves to the hill with WorkerC, D and the new sword.


Kyoto vSword -> vSword, 3 turns.

Celts are building the Hanging Gardens.

Dutch settler pair move north, unimproved (and unworked) forest to unimproved (and unworked) forest.

[I] 4 0900 BC

WorkerD helps WorkerC make a road.
SettlerToRedDot moves onto Red Dot.
Swords moves to protect.


Dutch settler pair move north again and into Orange Land.

Osaka vSword -> vSword, 4 turns (grow in 18) or 5 turns (grow in 9). We build in 4.

Hittites are building the Hanging Gardens.

[I] 5 0875 BC

Found WilliesHillyBilly on the Red Dot, grows in 10, walls in 10.
Our two newest vSwords head to WilliesHillyBilly (WHB).


Dutch worker moves onto a forest we wanted to chop. Maybe he will move away.

[I] 6 0850 BC

Workers A and B complete their hillside road. They move to the grassland NW of HWB, to road and connect it.
Swords split up, one moving to cover Workers A and B, the other to cover Workers C and D.
We have a fortified Dutch warrior 1E of WHB. I leave him alone. If he stays in place, he can be a pretext for our war with Willie.


Dutch warrior moves away.
Dutch worker moves SW, heading towards the Dutch city of Utrecht, but stops on a forest we want to chop.

Kyoto vSword -> vSword, 3 turns (3 food unmarked, one marked and we still have an entertainer if we miscalculate the starving).

[I] 7 0825 BC

Workers A and B make a road.
Workers C and D move onto the forest NE of WHB, to chop and road.
vSword moves with them, since this is a border tile.
New vSword in Kyoto heads to WHB.


Dutch worker leaves our lands.

[I] 8 0800 BC

Worker C and D chop the forest.


Osaka vSword -> vSword, 4 turns.
Toyko vSword -> vSword, 5 turns.

[I] 9 0775 BC

WorkerE completes the mine; moves to the Iron to build a mine.
WorkerF completes the mine; set Kyoto to zero population growth and still keep 10 shields per turn.
WorkerF moves to join WorkerE in mining Iron.
New vSword in Toyko moves to WHB.
Workers A and B complete their road, move onto the roaded forest that is 1SE of WilliesHillyBilly. They begin to chop.


Kyoto vSword -> vSword
WilliesHillyBilly walls -> barracks, 20 turns.

[I] 10 0750 BC

WorkerE and F begin to mine (12WT to mine a hill, 6 turns with 2 workers). Toyko is working this hill.
Workers C and D build a road (3WT or two turns with 2 workers).
New vSword in Kyoto heads to WHB.

[IBT]


And the save is >>HERE<< (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58993/Phaedo2_BC_0750.SAV).

Our World 1000 BC
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/Phaedo2/750BC_OurWorldTrimmed2.jpg

Japanese Military

06 Workers
05 Warriors
04 Archers
17 Swords
Upkeep

32 Total Units
20 Allowed Units
12 Support Cost



Edo is building a worker that completes this IBT. We need to decide if Edo should continue that build or switch to something else.

Workers A and B will complete their chop this IBT, 10 shields for the new barracks.
If we expect trouble from the southwest of WillesHillyBilly, we can have Workers A and B move to the forest 1W of WHB and chop it. We'll overspend on the barracks, though, but not by much.
But Toyko is working this forest, so it really needs to be discussed; chop that forest or not.

I was planning on improving the land around Toyko while workers were present. Wanted to improve the grassland SW of Toyko; favoring irrigation for faster growth.

I don't know why I think this but for some reason it seems important to me that we have a road from Kyoto to Toyko through the forests. This would give us two roads from Kyoto heading southeast. It also means roading two forest tiles; alot of worker turns (ouch!). And until we get Engineering, the current roading is faster.
But if our workers lack for safe things to do...

I'm back, can you post current roster? :)

Looks pretty nice. One thing, though:
Wanted to improve the grassland SW of Toyko; favoring irrigation for faster growth.
Besides the cow, irrigation won't do us any good until we're out of despotism.

According to the military advisor, we're average vs. the Hittites and strong vs. the Celts and the Dutch, so I think we'll be ready for war when the silks "deal" runs out. Meanwhile, we can buy any tech from Brennus except for CoL or map making--mysticism is the cheapest, math the most expensive (but also the most useful to us), with HBR and philosophy in between. Since our unit support costs are going to increase, I'd advise against math, but HBR might be useful. So might mysticism, if we want to beat polytheism out of Willie. We can't steal any techs yet, though; even an immediate steal would cost 440 gold (452 from the Celts). Also, peace with the Hittites would cost 1 gpt and 102 gold, but we probably shouldn't worry about them yet.

Do we want some more settlers? We can probably get more techs from Willie for peace if we raze a few of his cities, and cutting back on flip risk wouldn't hurt, either. Also, once we're in a stronger position, how about some temples? This is one of the rare games where they'll actually be useful.

The Roster:
Phaedo UP
Bucephalus presently sick
Elephantium On Deck
Simple Monkey Lurking
Smart
Norton II
Commando Bob

I agree that it is time for some settlers. I hadn't thought about temples but as we can't build Libs, I guess we need culture from somewhere. I haven't really thought through temples and would like to get some more input but it seems the initial war turns will fall to me so I definately want a settler kicking about. I also like the HBR buy also. We should have horses soon;)
I got it by the way.

I agree that it is time for some settlers.
Best place for a settler in Kyoto, currently at size 7 and netting 10 shields per turn.


Rambling Thoughts on Swords and Settlers
We have 17 Swords at the moment with three more in production. In 4 turns we will have a total of 20 Swords. I assume we'll attack with at least 15 swords and all our Archers; leaving Warriors for garrison duty, with a few Swords scattered about for an extra defensive punch.

Somehow I've got the idea that the unlearned, sword wielding masses of Japan would gather together 1W of WilliesHillyBilly and then march NE to Rotterdam. It will take units in Toyko and Osaka two turns to reach that jumping off location; units in Kyoto will take three turns. Rivers slow us down.

Our trade deal with Willie ends in just a few turns. But we need to move troops now, just in case Willie wants to renew the deal and gets testy when we say no.

We need to determine if we want any Swords to serve as the Home Guard. If we do want a Home Guard, the current builds would serve very well for that purpose. Tokyo and Osaka will continue to create Swords as long as we are at war with Willie.

But Kyoto is not so clear cut. Change the Sword to a Settler now and we can use it very early in the war. Kyoto will drop to size 5 but should grow back to size 6 rather quickly so once again it can be cranking out Swords every three turns. Or, finish the Sword, then build the Settler, which keeps it from being a front line target.

I wonder if we can set Kyoto up as a 4-turn settler factory for a turnset or so. We do need to repopulate what we take from Willie. I don't think he has any wonders, so we'll just raze his cities and get cheap labor.

Do we have a dotmap of how we want settle the Orange land to our southeast?

I wonder if we can set Kyoto up as a 4-turn settler factory for a turnset or so.

You mean Tokyo, right? It's the only one with a food bonus. We could make it into a 6-turn pump pretty easily, but we'd need to build a granary first.

Do we have a dotmap of how we want settle the Orange land to our southeast?

Ask and ye shall receive).

This is just a personal take on placement and it is open for debate.
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/RagepostWilliedots.jpg

The orange dot is on the fur.

Regarding war:
Osaka is vulnerable to an attack from horse. We also should put a unit on that mountain as we don't want Willie to get that terrain advantage. I'd like to take Rotterdam first and then East but I'd also like to raze Utrech sooner than later. I'd also like to see Willie send his horse against us before we make the big push int his territory. We have a good kill zone and if we leave Tokyo open, it might draw him in.

The southern bit can wait for a while. I expect about 4-5 warriors/archers will come at us from the south so that should be defended. A settler pump is a good idea. They are not my forte but it seems Norton's suggestion for Tokyo seems good.

I expect to start massing troops from the beginning of my set and I'd like to make the settler earlier rather than later. However because I expect to weather an attack at the beginning, I'd like Kyoto to finish its sword first.

So basically, I intend to position our troops on the hills and mountains and wait for Willie's initial attack. Once he blows his load, we advance.

I'll look into making Tokyo a settler pump and keep the rest on swords. I'm intending to change Edo to a rax.

I'll make the HBR trade on turn 0 as well.

Questions, comments or insights?

You'll need to remain mindful of Hittites, so you'l need a garrison protecting the North; and since it's there anyway, why not use it to take out Haarlem?

3-4 swords ought to be enough to take Harlem and defend against the north. I'll play the next three turns tomorrow and post a log and screenies to get input.

Do we really need to spend gold on HBR? Willie will be donating that for peace.

Wild Willie has one horse connected, but we plan to change that.

I think that we have enough swords to handle Willie, especially if we declare and he attacks us on hills. He will probably attack us with horses. Some will die, some will run away and be killed. I'm not worried about them. They can be pests, but they won't be decisive.

And while this is not much help, I didn't see any Orange Horsies on my turnset.

Overall, I don't think we need HBR to take out WilliAm of OrAnge.

Too bad we can't spend that gold on units.

There may be a better tech to take but we could start using it as soon as we take Rotterdam. It would speed up the invasion. We could get it for 96g and 10gpt (if memory serves). Myst would advance our trading more but only towards Monarchy, which I am assuming is a rather low priority for us. Horses could reinforce our troops faster, take off hit points (thus saving swords) and possibly retreat (saving builds). If there is an interm tech we could use HBR is it. Having said that, if there is a better use for our gold I'm all ears (I think we are good for upkeep for a while so if it's not used it's just an incitement for demands).

Quick question: in despotism, is there any dis/advantage to declaring war, or only in WW gov'ts?

EDIT: Crosspost with Cbob. If he doesn't have horses, the strategy changes a bit. We don't have to wait. I'm assuming you didn't poke into his territory on your set as he is still happy with us. What does the team think the odds are that he has at most 3 horses in his army?

Edit 2: Anyone have a problem with a 2-turn exploratory venture into Willie's territory, starting on my turn 0 and getting the boot for recon purposes?

I'd have to look at the save for a better location, but I'm wondering if Orange Dot could be shifted to not be on top of the furs. Furs = gold for unit support and trading.

Willie may try a few pop-rushes of horsies, but the sooner his supply is cut off, the sooner HBR will become useful. To Japan, that is. I'd think it would be worthwhile to get it now. A quick turnabout of who's paying stable fees (you vs. him) could mean a decisive edge, for all the reasons that Phaedo mentioned.

Definitely take Haarlem.

AFAIK, declaring in despot doesn't affect WW, since there isn't any. Just the usual rep and attitude issues.

Declare and go harvest some tulips. :hammer:

Having said that, if there is a better use for our gold I'm all ears (I think we are good for upkeep for a while so if it's not used it's just an incitement for demands).

I think that a better use for our money will come; if we hurt him enough, Willie will cough up HBR and more besides.

And who but Brennus might demand it? We are already at war with the Hittites, and Willie can take a hike.

And if Brennus comes calling, it'll be a demand for 20g or so.

Neither do I think we need horses for this war; IMO, Willie will cave inside 2 turnsets - I have a strong suspicion that Willie has built archers as opposed to horsemen.

Here's the log so far. We are getting a bit of Hittite pressure form the North. I'm not quite sure what to do about it but I'm not too worried yet

Turn 0 750BC

Start shuffling troops around to see what I have to work with
Most is just repositioning to hills and mountains

IBT A Hittite sword/archer pair appear from the North

T1 730BC
Continue consolidating forces.
It is unfortunate about the Hittites but I can get 1 vSword to Edo this turn and 2 more will be close next turn.
We should have 2 stacks of 5 vSwords and an archer each by the time we want to declare with a defensive garrison and more swords coming.
Willie is sending a settler pair north. He only has desert to take though so I'm not too worried.

IBT Edo worker>rax

T2 710BC
Attack the Hittie units. Redline the sword but lose a vSword (0-1)
Kill the archer (1-1)
Kill the sword with the warrior in Edo and he gets promoted (2-1)
Hitties have gone from being insulted at a straight up peace deal to doubtful.
Brennus offers Myst for 2gpt and all our gold. I've been thinking that if we are going to buy something, it should probably be myst as that will lead to poly and get us closer to the next age. But I'm not going to make a deal at the moment.

IBT Hittites end down 2 rArchers and 2 rWarriors.
Kyoto sword>sword (I'd like to make up for the lost unit before dropping pop)
Osaka sword>sword

T3 690BC
vSword is healing in Edo, 2 more full strength have joined it and one is 1 square S.
Edo's recently build warrior is heading S to set up Tokyo as a settler pump

IBT The Hittites are being sneaky. They send 1 archer into our territory while 2 warriors and an archer can attack any unit that kills it.
Willie moves his settler pair back.

T4 670BC
Kill the archer (still full strength) (3-1)and pile all the troops out of Edo onto the square. Hopefully the empty Edo will be more enticing than the stack of 4 full-strength swords.
We have 2 stacks of 5 vSwords and 1 vArcher on the hills, 3 vSwords in Hilly Billy, a vSwords and archer in the mountain and a warrior and swords in Osaka.
We are set for war.

I'm going to pause here for input

Screenies

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/img_227.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/img_228.jpg

I expect that if you kill those Hittite units without losses, Hittites will give peace for a nominal gold payment; I wouldn't begrudge a small payment to get them off our backs before we go for Willie.

Do you think going to war with Willie before peace will affect the deal? I'd like to kill a few more of their troops before peace. As I see it here are my options:
Make peace, then declare
Declare, make peace next turn
Wait a turn to declare.

I like option 2 best but if entering a war will make the peace more expensive, I'd rather not

Double post.

I think peace first is highly desirable, IMO as I'm sure the price will go up if we are dogpiled; we should also bear in mind that while we fight Hittites there is always the possiblity that they will ally Brennus against us.

DOW the Dutch at your discretion.

Set cont.

T4 670BC
Kill the archer (still full strength) (3-1)and pile all the troops out of Edo onto the square. Hopefully the empty Edo will be more enticing than the stack of 4 full-strength swords.
We have 2 stacks of 5 vSwords and 1 vArcher on the hills, 3 vSwords in Hilly Billy, a vSwords and archer in the mountain and a warrior and swords in Osaka.
We are set for war.
Post, wait and think about it for a while. I decide to let it wait a turn, make peace and then declare.

IBT Ductch reinforce Utrech with a spear.
The Hittites send down another archer,a sword AND a galley. Peace it is

T5 650BC
Kill 2 Hittite warriors and make peace for 20g.
Somehow, making peace and paying for it made people in Kyoto and Osaka unhappy. I wonder why? Up the lux to 10% now at 6gpt
Demand Myst, which Willie won't give us so declare. Let's see what he's got.

IBT Hittites run away home
Willie sends 4 warriors up from the south (3 reg 1 elite) and a spear SE of HillyBilly
The settler pair also runs back to Haarlem
Tokyo sword>settler

T6 630BC
Decide to keep Kyoto pumping out 3-turn swords. Tokyo can make a 3-turn settler and then switch to a gran.
Kill the Dutch settler pair (1-0)
pull forces back to Edo
It's odd, Willie only has 1 spear coming from the west.
Take the spear that moved into our territory with 2 swords (2-1)
Move 4 units on him to cover.

IBT Willie moves 5 units in (4 warriors and a spear). An archer moves into view
Osaka sword>sword

T7 610BC
Pull back the sword that took the settler pair
Kill the spear that entered our territory
Kill the eWarrior and our sword gets promoted:D
An rWarrior fights off a vSwords (4-2)

IBT Willie's warrior moves further inland and the archer enters. 2 more warriors appear from the south.

T8 590BC
That same warrior kills off ANOTHR sword before being overcome (5-3)
Kill the archer (6-3)
Sword kills one of the warriors and is promoted (7-3)
Kill the other warrior with no loss (8-3)

IBT Celts build the Hanging Gardens
Willie moves an archer and some warriors close from the west
Tokyo settler>gran

T9 570BC
Take out the archer that moved in. (9-3)
Send a stack in against Rotterdam
Move the settler to WHB

IBT A spear moves into our area as do 2 warriors

T10 550BC
Kill the spear. Those hills make a great kill zone (10-3)
Attack Rotterdam with our eSword. Lookie what we got:D (11-3)
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/leader.jpg
Continue the attack. Lose 1 sword but promote one and take out 2 more spears and an archer. Raze Rotterdam (14-4)
Attack Haarlem. Lose 2 and take to. Haarlem holds. (16-6)
Take out the warriors that entered (18-6)

I'm going to save it here. We have a leader as yet unused, a settler that can be moved and a couple of units with movement.

The current empire:

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/img_231.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/img_230.jpg

Good stuff. Looks like Willie didn't have horses then, as suspected.

The unhappiness was caused by loss of 'war happiness'.

Don't be in a hurry to use the MGL; I doubt if we'll need an Army, and being able to choose our spot for the FP is priceless. IIRC, the Dutch have the 'Colossus', which would make it a fair site for the FP.

Phaedo
Bucephalus UP
Elephantium On Deck
Simple Monkey Lurking
Smart
Norton II
Commando Bob

I thought I'd leave the settler and movement to you. You have to defend the new town so I thought it best if it was your call about the timing of the placement.

It looks like the Dutch are going to fold relatively quickly. A bit surprising after all the worry we had over them. Still, better safe than sorry and there's still some fun to be had.

So we still get war happiness in despotism eh? Any way to force a declaration from a weaker AI and still retain rep?

I thought I'd leave the settler and movement to you. You have to defend the new town so I thought it best if it was your call about the timing of the placement.

OK, thanks.

It looks like the Dutch are going to fold relatively quickly. A bit surprising after all the worry we had over them. Still, better safe than sorry and there's still some fun to be had.

Better this way than finding ourselves under prepared. Even though we suspected it, we couldn't be sure that they didn't have horsemen; and now it's a queston of getting the balancing act right - getting as many techs as possible, while leaving them sufficiently viable to research some more for us.

So we still get war happiness in despotism eh? Any way to force a declaration from a weaker AI and still retain rep?

If they tresspass, repeatedly demanding a city will get them 'furious', then a demand to leave will often get them to declare.

Later on, failed spy missions have the same effect.

I'm not going to play this today, so as to give the team a chance for some input.

Well, it looks like we've got two major decisions to make besides how much more to hurt Willie: what to do with our leader, and what techs to demand from Willie. As for the leader, I'd rather use the first one for an army than for anything else. That'll let us build the HE relatively early, making it easier to get more leaders. The best techs to demand might be CoL and MM, those being the ones we can't afford to buy. Between those two, CoL should take precedence since it's on the way to Republic. Also, we can definitely get a curragh out now.

Don't be in a hurry to use the MGL; I doubt if we'll need an Army, and being able to choose our spot for the FP is priceless. IIRC, the Dutch have the 'Colossus', which would make it a fair site for the FP.
What is the Magic Number for the Forbidden Palace on our world?

We are on a standard map, but I don't know without checking what that implies.

Personally I like an army as well. We do have another eSword around and a number of cities to take. I think the chances of another leader are good. A little growth before the FP is not a bad thing.

I expect we should be able to get quite a few techs off Willie. In fact, I think if we continue until all the Eastern ground is ours and we push him back to just tundra, we should get all his tech.

I definitely agree that the time is ripe for boats. Tokyo should be set up as a settler pump once it finishes its gran too.

Well, it looks like we've got two major decisions to make besides how much more to hurt Willie: what to do with our leader, and what techs to demand from Willie. As for the leader, I'd rather use the first one for an army than for anything else. That'll let us build the HE relatively early, making it easier to get more leaders.

Woah! Slow down - Cbob's game has finished - this is 'Zero Science' not AW! :lol:

Seriously though, although there will be occasions when poking with something sharp wil be appropriate, that's not how I envisage us winning this game.

Our war against the Dutch is not about techs - although their acquisition will be nice. It is about land - pure and simple; we will be in possession of good quality land once we have finished with the Dutch.

We would then be best served by building up our infastructure - think gold here - and getting some suicide runs going.

Once we contact the other landmass(es), we will be in prime position to act as tech brokers between them until nearly the IA; having Celts and Hittites happy and economically healthy is vital to such a strategy.

So using our MGL for a sword Army makes no sense whatsoever; I'm not sure what the number is for the FP on a standard map, but it will be reached once we re-populate Dutch lands.

Being able to have a one-turn FP in a place of our chosing is an opportunity that we mustn't throw away on a 'White Elephant' like a soon-to-be redundant sword Army, IMO.


The best techs to demand might be CoL and MM, those being the ones we can't afford to buy. Between those two, CoL should take precedence since it's on the way to Republic. Also, we can definitely get a curragh out now.

Hmm, I wouldn't want to chose between MM and CoL, but if I had to I'd go with MM - Galleys have a better chance than Curraghs of making the suicide runs happen; I agree though, that early Republic is very desirable.

However, I would be hopeful of getting everything the Dutch have once we've done.

I still like the army, but I would like to keep it empty for future use. I just think there will be other leaders coming along before the war with Willie is done.

I also think our next priority should be exploration, both with suicide boats and around the continent. It would be nice to know what our neighbours have to deal with. While I understand we need some effective enemies to pull this off, I'm not sure we need both Brennus and Murry strong and healthy. Of course, we can't really make a decision until we know who is out there and what they have to work with.

The richer we are, the more effective we can be so infrastructure is key. No knowledge builds are allowed so no Libs. Markets are a priority in our core. We will need some culture though, especially if we have strong neighbours. Norton's suggestion of temples is due some thought.

I still like the army, but I would like to keep it empty for future use.

With respect, I think that is a fundamentally flawed approach.

This variant is like no other; it offers a unique set of challenges.

The biggest of these challenges is that - by definition - zero science means that one, maybe several AI civs, will have the last required SS tech before we do. Ask yourself, given that fact, "how are we going to launch first?"

Because the answer to that question will dictate the strategy for the whole game.

I can justify not using the MGL as an Army, in the context of a game-long strategy; I think it only right that you should justify building one with it.

I can justify not using the MGL as an Army, in the context of a game-long strategy; I think it only right that you should justify building one with it.

Fair enough:). Realistically, we aren't going to want to completely control our continent (although fewer civs does mean faster research so kicking out the dead weight has some value). That said, there are going to be times in the game where we are going to want war, and probably before we are stealing techs. Although we will eventually want to go commie for the more effective spies (does fascism have them too?), I assume there will be a time when we will want a war either with a runaway AI or to get a wonder that will significantly improve our position, or to deprive a civ of one. At that time, if we had an empty army, we could make an effective strike in a limited time, achieve our objective and increase our economy (either with settler farms or outright if in Commie). Moreover, that war will in all probably be waged on a different continent. An overseas invasion goes much more smoothly with an army than with units alone (especially if it is before flight). We would also then have the option of disbanding it on the new continent for a quick rush if needed.

All that being said, we get to the stars through constantly trading to a parityish level and stealing once we have the ability. As for how we launch before other Civs when they have the tech to do it, that can happen if we have monster producing cities, destroying enemy productive ability at appropriate times, denial of resources, sabotage or possibly nukes. Some combination of the aforementioned would probably be the winning strategy. The CxxxC SEastern pattern of Kyoto could allow it to grow past 12 effectively and we could give Osaka even more productive potential. We don't really have to have parity until the MA so I'm not worried about that but I would be worried about a runaway AI.

Now, I understand that armies are not going to get us where we want, but all we need is another MGL in our war with the Dutch and we haven't lost anything (I think that is more likely than not with smart attacking). Once we have the army, we can use the next one for the FP (which we aren't yet ready for). After that I don't think there are other economic Small Wonders are there?

OK, there are some good thoughts there; what troubles me is that your entire strategy depends upon getting another MGL in this war.

Your assumption that we will get one is ignoring the facts, which are that it is statistically unlikely.

Here's how I would see it panning out:

I would continue the war with the Dutch until our objectives were achieved; those objectives would be to annex the Dutch core and beat up enough of the rest to ensure maximum returns on techs.

I would then pre-build for the FP in Kyoto; once enough shields were in the bag, I would use our MGL to move the Palace to the town which we will build upon the horses, a more central position to our soon-to-be Empire.

I would be sending out suicide galleys to contact the others.

Once contacted, it would be my intention to broker techs between the two continents, which we would be able to do for most of the Middle Ages.

During this time, I would expect our military to be no more than adequate for homeland defence, saving on unit support.

I would expect it to be a time of peace and prosperity with our neighbours.

Once we enter the IA I would be looking to spark our GA around the time that we are wanting to build factories.

Once RP was reached I would look to assimilate the four economically weakest civs in to our Empire; this would likely include Celts and Hittites.

We would then turn our new lands in to tax farms; whether we steal or continue to buy our techs at this stage, it will require lots of money.

Once Fission and Rocketry are known, there would be one final war (The War of Resource Denial); this may be against one, two, or all three remaining civs, but at it's close we would control the World's Aliminium and/or Uranium.

I would want to cause as little damage as possible in this war - we would still need them to research us to Space.

But, as long as we then remained military 'top-dog', the game would be in the bag.

Without the Heroic Epic (or sometimes even with it) the RNG doesn't favor popping another MGL soon. I'd think that an early FP is a sound investment. The only reason I could think of to justify making a sword army is that it would guarantee Willie folding up with a quickness. But since he apparently never built up the horse troops that he could have (maybe he hit his unit limit early, I dunno), getting his territory and cities with existing Japanese forces seems like a forgone conclusion anyway.

I'd favor controlling this continent, and perhaps having a foothold in others to secure resources and luxuries. There should still be enough healthy civs to do the research.

GOZ12, a 5CC as Korea, is a great example of pulling off a space race with formidable opponants. Different challenge than this one, true, but it does show how some thinking outside the box can overcome the odds.

EDIT: x-post with Buce. I like his thinking. I'd still recommend controling more territory earlier in the game than the IA. Then again, I've been playing only on Huge maps recently, so I'm used to there being plenty of room for other strong civs to build up overseas. His overall plan looks solid.

GOZ12, a 5CC as Korea, is a great example of pulling off a space race with formidable opponants. Different challenge than this one, true, but it does show how some thinking outside the box can overcome the odds.

Indeed; and for most of the game we had nothing better than an obsolete Sword Army, which was of little value.

OK, so maybe not a sword army. I guess we have to keep someone around on our continent for now. :( Bucephalus' overall strategy seems sound, though the timing of our conquest of the Celts and Hittites can be debated later. Also, we shouldn't forget about prebuilding for the spaceship parts, even though prebuilds will be harder to time than if we were researching techs ourselves. Also, Phaedo needs to post the save.

Also, Phaedo needs to post the save.

I was sure that I attached it. Sorry:blush:

I'm easy on the army and without knowing what our neighbours have it's hard to know what to do with the Celts, but an AI that drags behind us won't help us in any way. I'm quite sure that researching gets cheaper as civs drop out. And out of curiosity, what are the chances of getting a MGL? Does anyone actually know the percentage chance?

but an AI that drags behind us won't help us in any way.

Not so; having tech disparity is what helps us broker successfully, even once everyone has met.

though the timing of our conquest of the Celts and Hittites can be debated later.

It is likely that their usefulness to us will only last until all contacts are made, though a lot depends on whether they have anything that we need.

Not so; having tech disparity is what helps us broker successfully, even once everyone has met.

Agreed that tech disparity will be what drives our research, but a civ at the bottom of the pack with no gold won't help us and cultivating their land for specialist farms will. Moreover, if tech research speeds up as civs disappear (as either Whomp or Bede said in one of their training games) then having them around actually slows down. In the IA when there are so many research options, faster research by all AIs helps us quite a bit.

Regardless, we need to see what is out there before any of these details can be hashed out:)

And out of curiosity, what are the chances of getting a MGL? Does anyone actually know the percentage chance?
If attacking, a victorious elite unit has a 1 in 16 chance of producing a MGL, 1 in 12 if you have built the Heroic Epic.

If defending, a victorious elite unit has a 1 in 32 chance of producing a MGL, 1 in 24 if you have built the Heroic Epic.

Personlly, I would not ally myself with the RNG gods by banking on getting another MGL

OK, I feel a concensus beginning to emerge but I'd still like to hear from the rest of the team to see if they have any input to give, so I'll delay playing this overnight.

Keep the MGL for the FP/Palace. We'll need it rather soon and we don't, yet, plan on a lot of warfare. We can handle Willie with one arm tied behind our back.

I'm comfortable with the leader for a rush. I would like to see exploration become a priority. I think we can start on our continent before we end the war as well. It would be really nice to know what we are dealing with at home, despite the necessity to make contact abroad.

Also, after giving my justification for an empty army, I was thinking that perhaps our new city should go on the Rotterdam spot. That would push the dot map a bit to the East, get a town off the fur and give Osaka access to some grass for growth. The Mt and hills give Osaka fantastic productive potential and it will need some grass to keep up the growth.

I believe that saving the MGL for a rush build is the best bet - leaders may be fairly easy to come by, but let's face it - the next one we get may not be until we're fighting on the other continent.

You'll be following Buce Tusker. Any ideas of what you want to do? ;)

You'll be following Buce Tusker. Any ideas of what you want to do? ;)

It will be incumbent on Tusker to get the best deal closing the war with the Dutch.

I played just one turn this AM - then RL disturbed me - but Willie will already give any two techs for peace.

I anticipate taking Den Haag (Haarlem has already fallen) and Groningen this set, leaving just Amsterdam in the East, unless there is something in the fog.

I'm not going to raze Dutch cities - we can always abandon later if we decide it desirable - but if we are going to move our core, The Hague and Amsterdam are probably OK where they are; dotmaps are in order once we are done with Willie.

Edit: I've picked this up again, and I'm suddenly facing horses - lots of them; I'm going to pause and re-evaluate my strategic options.

Willie has horses now!?!? Where did they come from? No matter, a sword attacking from high ground can turn a horse into dog food.

End the war with Willie, trade for techs, gouge every last gold piece from the citizens.

Maybe the horses were taking their time getting over??? He could have another source. It would make sense that there is more than just 1 on the continent. However, I have a sneaking suspicion that there is another Civ in the game on our side. I don't think writing makes possible trading contacts so we wouldn't know unless we met them right?

Are the horses from the east or south?

So much for an early Pax Nihon:). Do you think this changes our MGL discussion?

So much for an early Pax Nihon:). Do you think this changes our MGL discussion?
Not right away. We can control where we stand and fight and we can force the Horses to attack us on our terms, like SimpleMonkey stated. They will soon stop coming. And we can move forward.

Now if they don't stop coming, then we may need the MGL for an Army. But not just yet and probably not in this turnset.

I wasn't really thinking a complete reversal, merely if it changes the context of our decision. we were assuming a short war and therefore a low change of another MGL. I'm not advocating a quick sword army or anything, but as the conditions under which we made the decision have changed, a quick re-think might be in order. We may come to the same conclusion but it seems things have changed. Let's see how long those horses last though.

Unfortunately Buce has had some very serious RL problems come up and will need to be skipped until further notice. He will post the save and the briefest of turn logs when he gets a chance but we're not sure when he will be back.
He apologizes for the inconvenience, but under the circumstances it is more than understandable.

Thanks, Phaedo.

To be specific, my Father-in-Law has died; I will be back, but obviously Mrs Buce is going to need all my time in the short term.

Summary:

The Horse threat is neutralised - Tusker will face nothing worse than Spears and Archers.

I have added four new cities, only Amsterdam is left in the East.

We have three Curraghs on the move.

Although Willie will currently give MM, CoL, Philosophy, and Mathematics for a makeweight of 50g, I recommend taking Amsterdam to reduce any flip-risk on 'The Hague', and because it has the Colossus.

Note to Tusker: On DG, the capital will likely be defended by 6-7 Spears so take a big stack, and be prepared for casualties; I had perfect RNG, and didn't lose a single unit, so you have plenty of Swords to play with.

I've added a dot-map for discussion, in case it's not clear Groningen would need to be abandoned.

Willie and Brennus are in the MA's now, so if you rinse and repeat in 20 turns, you will probably get Republic.

There is a Settler in Kagoshima, waiting to be used.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/38078/Dotmap-Rage.JPG

>>The Save<< (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/38078/Rage_350BC_Buce.SAV)

Got it. I'll play this weekend.

Thanks, Phaedo.

To be specific, my Father-in-Law has died; I will be back, but obviously Mrs Buce is going to need all my time in the short term.

Take care of the Mrs.; we understand.

I want to pick up Math and Mysticism from the Celts or Hittites before making peace - once Willie loses his capital, I'm sure he'll gladly give all he has for peace.

Brennus wants 2gpt + 386 gold
Murray wants 2gpt+393 gold

Extrapolating from the individual costs, we can buy both techs outright from Brennus in 1-2 turns (for pretty much all our gold). Does this deal meet with the team's approval?

Edit: Both techs for 421 gold. Yes? No? I'll stop playing for tonight, waiting on the team's guidance.

Willie has Math and Myst right? Why not get them for free and then see what Murray and Brennus have for our gold. Willy will fall soon, once that happens we will need to see where we stand with the others. Having some coin in the bank could be very helpful to keep the tech trading going. See if you can get Utrech in the peace deal as well. If you have to give up a tech for it, that's fine. The price will just go down with time.

I'd rather keep our cash and beat the living Math and Mysticism out of Willie. :evil:

Keeping an eye out for trades is always a good thing, but sometimes the best trade is no trade at all.

Everyone's in the MA now, so maybe it would be better to buy math and myst, then extort poly, currency, construction. Since Willie's on the ropes, we can probably still get everything else from him. It's a gamble, but it might be one worth taking--at the very least, it could save us the trouble of buying more expensive techs.

@Bucephalus: My condolances to you and to Mrs. Buce.

My reasoning is this: Get Math any Myst from Brennus, then Willie will give us Currency, Construction, and Poly - and we can join him in the Middle Ages.

I agree with Norton and the Tusker's logic. If Willie is indeed about to be reduced to a one or two city tundra empire, then it makes sense to get the most advanced techs possible from him. Brennus and Murray won't trade for anything that Japan has now. With luck the dinkey boats will find someone ignorant enough to offer some decent MA trade-ups.

My condolences also to Buce's family.

My reasoning is this: Get Math any Myst from Brennus, then Willie will give us Currency, Construction, and Poly - and we can join him in the Middle Ages.
Ah, now I see. Sounds good to me.

It may also be possible to set up a GPT deal with the Irish boy and then provoke him into a short war to get out of payment. Or is that too underhanded for this game? And does Brennus have iron? That would be bad.

I don't think that's too underhanded at all:). I didn't realize Willie was in the MA yet. If so, buying the techs is a good idea.

Bah. I took Amsterdam AND Willie's new capital, and he STILL won't give us all the techs we want. Should we march on and raze Utrecht, hoping for a better deal, or should we take what we can get and worry about the missing techs later?

Take Utrech as we want it and then we'll go from there. Could you check how many cities he has? It should show you on the trade screen when you are checking out peace.

The AI tends to get stingy about coughing up techs for peace once the AA is over. This may be the best deal to be had out of Willie. Nevertheless, I'd still take Utrecht for sure and anything else that looked worthwhile.

Pre-turn: Move a sword from the hill just S of Osaka over towards Groningen. I want 12 swords for the assault on Amsterdam.

IBT:

Kyoto: Sword->Sword
Osaka: Sword->Sword
Celts start Sun Tzu's

Turn 1 (330 BC):

Oops. I make a couple of mistakes in troop movements because I didn't take rivers into account. :(
Let's see how badly this hurts us...

IBT:

vSword > archer
vSword dies to the second archer.
Osaka riots. WTF? It was happy before the IBT. Oh, duh. One of the MPs left.
I promise I'll pay more attention in the next turns.
Netherlands have a Galley next to Tokyo.

Turn 2 (310 BC):

Prevent a riot in Groningen by hiring a taxman.
vSword > rArcher, promote to elite.
vSword > rArcher, promote to elite.
Change Groningen to Worker. Hey, if we're going to abandon it, we might as well drop it to size 1 before doing so, right?
Change Osaka to Spear (cheap defender/MP) for when it's done rioting.

IBT:

Netherlands puts 4 galleys near our coast. We can also see 4 archers near Tokyo and 1 S of the horse town.
The Hague riots! Again, WTF? It didn't look problematic last turn, nor did CA yelp about it. Sigh, I hire two taxmen (two citizens in resistance).
Order restored in Osaka.
Resistance ends in Groningen.

Turn 3 (290 BC):

eSword > rArcher.

IBT:

Willie lands 2 Warriors next to Kyoto! Ooh, I'm scaaared.
Kyoto: Sword->Sword
Resistance in Hague ends.
Osaka: Spear->Sword

Turn 4 (270 BC):

Hague is still rioting. Umm, okay, hire four taxmen. That will get things whipped into shape.
2x eSword > rArcher (Tokyo)
eSword < rArcher :mad:
rSword > warrior x2 (at Kyoto)

IBT:

Willie lands another archer by the capital.
Hittites start Sun Tzu's

Turn 5 (250 BC):

our vArcher > rArcher
vSword > rArcher (at Edo). Sword is elite now.
Tobacco Farm founded, making Curragh.
eSword > rSpear (Amsterdam)
eSword > rSpear
eSword < rSpear, taking 1 HP away :mad:
eSword > rSpear

IBT:

Our people want the FP.
Kagoshima: Temple->Barracks
The Hague starves.
Osaka riots! Stupid growth. I hire a taxman.
Tokyo: Settler->Spear
We discover a new source of Iron! It's on the hill NE of The Hague.

Turn 6 (230 BC):

vArcher > rArcher (on the road to Amsterdam), promote to elite
eSword > rSpear (Amsterdam)
eSword < rSpear (now redlined)
vSword > redlined spear. We now own the Colossus! Making Temple (next player can change it, if necessary).
We now have seven new slaves.
We pay 273 gold to Murray for Math and 154 to Brennus for Mysticism.
UNBELIEVABLE. Willie won't give us all his techs for peace. I'm going to take another city before trying again.

IBT:

Kyoto: Sword->Sword
Hague starves. Curragh->Curragh
Order restored in Osaka.

Turn 7 (210 BC):

I take a gamble and attack a spear that just moved to a hilltop. I win unscathed :king:
I accidentally move a guy out of Kyoto a turn early, so I bump up the luxes to 20%. This has a ripple effect in 3 other towns, so I visit them to make sure citizens are working optimally.

IBT:

rArcher < vSword (now elite) in our walled town.
Hittites warn us about trespassing. We apologize profusely.
Celts are annoyed with us about the same thing, so we leave immediately!
Osaka: Sword->Sword
Haarlem: Temple->Barracks (can be changed).
We spot an orange warrior N of Haarlem.

Turn 8 (190 BC):

Our troops enter the culture borders of Arnhem, the new Dutch capital!

IBT:

Amsterdam riots. Ingrates. We make the non-resisters taxmen.
The Hague riots, too. The war is really getting to them.

Turn 9 (170 BC):

Turn luxes back down to 10%.
3 eSwords > archers. We own Arnhem. Making Temple.
Found Green Fields. Making Barracks.
Sword > warrior by Haarlem.
Willie is really stuck-up. He STILL won't give us all the techs we want.

IBT:

Kyoto: Sword->Sword
Order restored in The Hague and Amsterdam.
Groningen: Worker->Worker
Tokyo: Spear->Sword
Celts start on Knights Templar.

Turn 10 (150 BC):

Move some troops. Most of our attackers are tied up in Amsterdam and Arnhem, quelling resistance. I estimate 3-5 turns before they can be moved out.

* Willie currently has 8 cities, at least one of which is on another island SE of Amsterdam.
* Should we raze/replace Arnhem? I kept it - for now - because it comes pre-equipped with a Harbor, and it's a coastal/tundra town, so the harbor will help with growth.
* Tojo is fortified near Amsterdam for instant access after resistance ends.

* I marked battles vs. Willie in our core with red dots.

Nice work! BTW, I just checked out the save, and Willie will cough up all 7 techs for peace, 198 gold, and 13 gpt. We can also buy literature from Brennus for 1 gold and 13 gpt. Maybe we should do that first, then see how much that's worth to Willie. OTOH, Utrecht has pretty good land, and we have some swords nearby, so maybe we should take that, then see what peace terms we can get.
I'm up now, right? If so, I can play tomorrow or Tuesday, after we decide whether to make peace now on the terms I described.

I like the look of Utrech. Personally I'd raze it and put a new city 1 down the coast but it's not too bad where it is. Slaves never hurt.

We should be careful of the harbor. Murry can demand our lux but the trade route would be through Brennus' land and if there were a change in diplomacy, our rep would be wrecked. It would probably safer to sell it off until we can get nav or shared sea borders (or trade it to Brennus but we might poke him a bit in the future).

EDIT: I only had time to quickly glance at tusker's log, I'll have a closer read and post comments in a bit.

Here's the roster:
Phaedo
Bucephalus leave of absence
Elephantium
Simple Monkey Honoured Lurker
SmartUP
Norton IIOn Deck
Commando Bob


Smart isn't overly participatory so I'm not sure what he's up to. If he doesn't take it 48h after Tusker's post, it's all yours Norton.

As for the next set of goals post Willie, I'd say exploration is key (of both our own continent and suicide boats). We have economic infrastructure to build as well while we're waiting to see what we can do.

The set looked pretty good Tusker.
About the riots; CAII only gives you updates at the beginning of the turn immediately after the IBT. Make sure you have "city is about to grow" checked on your alerts. then you can figure out if you need the specialist the turn before . Personally I keep all the alerts on except the 1000BC one on. The important ones come up at the top except pollution, which comes up at the bottom of the mini window. You always have to watch resisting towns. All the citizens should be specialists to starve it down anyway but if you have troops stationed there, the citizens that are converted won't come back happy. CAII is a great tool, but it doesn't do all the work for you.

Other than that it looks pretty good. Be careful with those long odds attacks against strong defenders on high ground. It worked out but it's like betting against the house at a casino. You'll lose overall long-term. Oh, and great job scouting our continent! Makes my earlier comment irrelivant.

Norton's observation that Willie will give us all his tech for a price we can afford should also give you some ideas to think outside the box in trading. Try everything, and then decide what the best option is. Paying a little gold is fine for us if we get the techs we want. Just think of it as a trade. GPT is a really nice option and we gave Brennus and Murry almost as much for the two cheaper techs, so why not Willie in the peace deal for more expensive ones;).

All and all well done though. You advanced our goals well and highlighted some great management points.:goodjob:

EDIT: The AI does respond to threats so after razing Utrech, it might be worth it to park a stack next to his new capital before offering peace.

We also have some decisions to make. Kyoto is ready for a FP prebuild, but have we decided on a location for a new palace? I like the palace jump idea. We also need to get those furs in our borders. Any ideas about that (other than the obvious temple build?).

Some thoughts after looking at the save:
Osaka can get an extra gold with an irrigation and working the mined iron hill. OR, Tokyo can be a 4 turn settler pump with an irrigation and working the mined hill. Just changing the citizen to the iron hill gives it 6spt rather than 5.
Haarlem and The Hague need to be starved down
Kagoshima and WHB need the river tiles improved before others. WHB can get an extra gold with citizen reassignment as well.
I favour abandoning Groningen and re-settling.
Keep Arnhem as a pop 2 specialist farm for now and sell the harbor.

Willie has 3 cities on some island. That explains where the horses came from on Buce's set and why they took so long to show themselves.
He'll also accept 13gpt and 178g if we put 2 swords next to Utrecht. I gotta say, I like Utrecht's land especially if our new palace is in Kagoshima. I'd like a bit more space to work with though so as long as it is still size 4 razing it would be nice.

I favour abandoning Groningen and re-settling.

That's why I put shields from there into a Worker...I figure, if we're just going to abandon the town anyway, we might as well get some labor out of it until we can get a settler over to the new spot. Plus, building Worker cuts down the population that is otherwise wasted :)