Should we use the HoF mod?

Yes
No
Abstain

Poll is public, open for 4 days.

Link to discussion thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=205653).

I don't mind what is going to be used.Abstain

Abstain (absolutely no experience or knowledge).

Best regards,

i voted yes, people could wanna see how we are doing, and a little human competition is never bad :king:

i voted no, as a mod would only complicate things. People would have to download the mod in order to view the save.

No, not only does it complicate things, someone unfamilar with the mod might be in for a few surprises when they play.

i voted no, as a mod would only complicate things. People would have to download the mod in order to view the save.

agree. but whats the difference?:confused:

What's the HoF mod?

The discussion thread linked in the 1st post has links to the mod.

Vanilla! :D

Ah ok thanks

The decision is made by seeing which choice has the most votes, right?

The option with most votes in about 3 quarters from now wins. (Abstain can't win, abstain votes aren't counted when an option needs a certain percentage either.)

The option with most votes in about 3 quarters from now wins. (Abstain can't win, abstain votes aren't counted when an option needs a certain percentage either.)

Abstain votes have to be counted if we're going to make majority decisions. No option rec's a majority of the votes so how can we say a decision has been made?

So what is the final decision?

The option with most votes in this poll was NO HoF mod.
Therefor we will play this game without the HoF mod.

One thing though, superslug voted in this poll although he's not a member of the user group. Can he vote because he's a mod?

The option with most votes in this poll was NO HoF mod.
Therefor we will play this game without the HoF mod.

My dad had a saying that I think is very appropriate here: Who died and made you Boss?

No option got a majority of the vote, so this is still undecided. There is no rush, the game isn't set to start tomorrow. This is a decision that must be finalized soon. I suggest another poll, straight up yes or no without an abstain option. That way we get a majority decision unless the poll ends in a tie.

16 people voted Yes
20 people voted No

There are more people who don't want it than people who do want it, therefor it won't be there.
It's simple as that.
Abstain votes aren't counted here, like in most polls. It would have been better if I had announced that better, but you, or anyone else, didn't seem to miss it. It's pretty common in other polls like this (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=206929) to not count abstain in calculations. After all, that's the whole point of abstaining! Showing that you are here to vote, but that you don't mind which option wins.

I'm not sure how it came about or what it's intended function was. I do see a function for it now. If we are to make decisions where the majority rules then abstain becomes a good tool to diffuse bad (unfair) polls. If we have a two option question then we'll have a majority decision unless there's a tie. Trouble is, what if the quesiton is do we attack the French in 5 turns or 10 turns when in reality the majority don't want to attack at all? By not voting we risk having a majority decision to attack. By requiring an abstain option, those who don't want to attack at all (or who want to attack at a different time) can vote abstain. Now if we include abstain votes in deciding a majority (not plurality) then we have a nice easy means of dealing with the sort of poll described.

The only reason you seem to have to count abstain votes is that it will be a safe-guard against bad polls or more precisely polls with bad options. That is clearly not the case here, the only two possible options are Yes and No.

If you do count the abstain votes in this poll, please subtract mine, as I'm not a participant here. I only clicked abstain because I'm lazy and didn't want to click on the view results link everytime I stop by, it's just that I like to keep tabs on how popular (or not) the HOF mod gets since it's grown larger than just the HOF community (also now GOTM).

My apologies for any disruption this vote caused.

For what it's worth, if there are any questions about the HOF mod, I'll happily answer them.

16 people voted Yes
20 people voted No

There are more people who don't want it than people who do want it, therefor it won't be there.
It's simple as that.
Abstain votes aren't counted here, like in most polls. It would have been better if I had announced that better, but you, or anyone else, didn't seem to miss it. It's pretty common in other polls like this (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=206929) to not count abstain in calculations. After all, that's the whole point of abstaining! Showing that you are here to vote, but that you don't mind which option wins.

The poll you linked to currently has an option that got more than 50% of the vote counting abstain. The poll percentages listed in the poll results count abstain.

While a mjority of voters did not vote to use the HoF mod a majority did not vote to not use it either. This poll has resulted in no decision. The appropriate thing to do is talk about the issue (use of the HoF mod) a little more and then re-poll it (perhaps without the abstain option as I suggested earlier).

Just what exactly is your opposition to this suggestion?

The only reason you seem to have to count abstain votes is that it will be a safe-guard against bad polls or more precisely polls with bad options. That is clearly not the case here, the only two possible options are Yes and No.

No, that's not the only reason I have for counting abstain. Another reason is we need to know when a majority decision has been made. Even though this poll has clear cut options there is no clear cut majority decision. Perhaps a bit more discussion would convince the abstainers to take a stand either way, as would a second poll without an abstain option.

If no majority acts to require use of the mod before the game starts, then it follows that the mod will not be used.

A few questions that this appears to bring up.
There's a difference of approx 9.3% between the Yes/No votes. Is this a clear enough margin or majority in this poll to make it official?
Does our current law system explain clearly how poll results will be handled?

I will quote the definition of Abstain

ab·stain (āb-stān', əb-) Pronunciation Key
intr.v. ab·stained, ab·stain·ing, ab·stains

1. To refrain from something by one's own choice: abstain from traditional political rhetoric.
2. To refrain from voting: Forty senators voted in favor of the bill, 45 voted against it, and 15 abstained.


As such a vote for "Abstain" is a vote to refrain from voting, or a vote to... not vote...

How can a non-vote be considered an actual vote...

Abstain votes aren't ever counted because, a vote for abstain is a vote not to have your vote counted. This is true in the real world.

People vote for abstain so it's easier to look at the results without voting. They also due it because they may feel uninformed, and unqualified to vote for the poll.

abstaining on a vote is a pretty ridiculous choice to have on a vote period. it only takes one click of the back button for someone to not vote.. by putting the choice to abstain you are infact promoting indecision and chaos..

If no majority acts to require use of the mod before the game starts, then it follows that the mod will not be used.

Makes sense. Now just exactly when is the game scheduled to start? I need to know if I should post a new poll RIGHT NOW or if we have time to have a further, hopefully civilized, discussion about the use of the HoF mod in the democracy game. This is an important issue not only for using the mod but for decision making in general during the coming game. If abstain votes are not counted as votes then the percentages in the poll results are incorrect. I would also begin agruing that we discontinue using abstain or alter it's use and also include an option (perhaps other or whatever we may decide to call it) that will be counted as a real vote when deciding majorities.

As I said earlier in this thread and this post, I see no reason why we can't discuss this further and repoll it. It could be that those voting abstain in this poll might make a yes or no vote after more discussion.

We don't have a law about interprenting polls yet (and a new law shouldn't work retrospectivly IMO), therefor there's nothing preventing anyone interprenting abstain as refraining from voting, and therefor count someone who abstained the same way as someone who didn't vote, namely NOT.

Repolling this issue is absolutely not usefull IMO, I for one would change my vote directly to NO. I think everything has been said about this issue so further discussing is pretty pointless. And repolling this will just be a hassle and won't add anything to the discussion.

So we are not using the mod?

So we are not using the mod?

that seems to be the gist of it :D

We don't have a law about interprenting polls yet (and a new law shouldn't work retrospectivly IMO),

I agree with this 100%.

The idea of requiring a majority with abstain votes counting as a separate category is a new idea to the DG. Sometimes we have predetermined that a true majority is required, but in the past when it's not predetermined we have taken the highest vote count ignoring abstain, even if it's a very narrow vote like 8-7-5.

So far I'm only seeing evidence of one player who doesn't want to use the standard way of scoring polls. Why would we deviate from what we've always done in the past?

BTW, the draft law for polls says nothing about abstain. It says the highest vote count.

BTW, the draft law for polls says nothing about abstain. It says the highest vote count. As the default interpretation, yup. It explicitly also allows for the author to explain how they will interpret the poll.

-- Ravensfire

To answer donsig's question on a timeframe, it would be good to aim for enough decisions being ready to start by 2/20. We don't have to start then, but it would be pretty convenient to start nominations that day.

Game startup options like this one could even wait until the end of elections. A new poll which closes 2/28 would likely be early enough. My preference would be to try to not delay it out that far.

I don't advocate a new poll, as my clear views on the matter are that this one is sufficient. However I would support the result of a followup poll to try to knock the abstains off the fence. Just make sure we don't continue ad nauseum. ;)

There will be a new poll and it will end in time for the game to start. I don't want to just repoll the thing without some proper discussion. I'm hoping to start a new discussion about this that will be more informative. I do hope people will look at the pros and cons of using the mod and vote according to how they judge those and not make protest votes against a second poll (or against a private poll). I dont' have time to do a proper job of it tonight - I have an assignment due in the morning and Jesse Jackson is at the university to speak tonight and I'd like to catch that. We're expecting a foot of snow here as well. We've got two full weeks before we need a final decision on this so we can chill a bit.

I do need to say that I have been talking about majority decisions for some time now, long before this poll was even posted. I will continue to talk about them and I will continue to use whatever means available to me to press issues that are important to me.

I don't believe abstain votes should count towards the majority... Because they are, as many have already said, a vote to not vote...

Do we need to have a poll on whether abstains count or not?

Do we need to have a poll on whether abstains count or not?

We can do everything the democratic way but isn't it good to sometimes listen to our own sane voice and follow it?

I clicked the abstain button. My reasons:

Voted to show respect for the other persons; did not vote yes or no,

because do not know enough of the question to make a decision.

And please allow me to say I do not like a repoll (or a poll to ask a repoll, or

a re-repoll) , for the same respect concerns I said before.

Best regards,

Please don't repoll. This would delay the DG!

Please don't repoll. This would delay the DG!

I will repoll this. It WILL NOT cause any delays.

I will repoll this. It WILL NOT cause any delays.

This statement was made prior to finding out that the HoF mod excludes Mac users?

This statement was made prior to finding out that the HoF mod excludes Mac users?

I believe that statement no longer holds any weight, due to this statement (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5104158&postcount=59) also made by Donsig. It was made several hours after his "will repoll" statement.

This statement was made prior to finding out that the HoF mod excludes Mac users?

Yes, as Methos pointed out this was indeed before I saw the research on Mac users and the HoF Mod. It's amazing what research and discussion can accomplish. ;)