Fellow citizens, we've got a variety of proposals on how to structure our Government. We need to decide which proposal is preferred, and tweak/finalize that proposal. As discussed here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5081590&postcount=55), here are the proposals that have been presented.

The poll options above lists the options, here is some more information about each, along with links to the specific proposal, and threads where the proposal is being discussed.

Poll options:
Parliamentary Government
Link to proposal (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5081883&postcount=1)
Link to discussion thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=206508)
Summary: Detailed proposal listing the offices. This uses a Parliment based system. Ministers are elected via popular election from a pool of candidates. Duties for each office, and the needed ministers, will need to be determined.

Tribal Government
Link to proposal (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5081601&postcount=56)
Link to discussion thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=204607&page=3)
Summary: Detailed proposal listing the offices and duties. This uses a single supreme leader, plus one person per city who runs the city. Further offices are to be created as needed.

Traditional Government
Link to proposal (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5086464&postcount=68)
Link to discussion thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=204607&page=4)
Summary: Rough proposal listing summaries of offices and duties. This is based on the system previous DG's have used to distribute the duties to different offices.

Other
Catch-all option. Please post your idea!

Abstain
You do not have a preference about the the government type.

Poll settings:
Public
Single-choice
4 days expiration

Interpretation:
If any single choice gains 50% or more of the non-abstain votes, that proposal will be deemed chosen by the citizens, and all further work on creating the final initiative for our Government structure will be focused on that proposal. Should no option gain 50% or more of the non-abstain votes, the top 2 (and any other tied options) will be posted in a subsequent poll with the same settings. This will continue until we determine our ruleset.

Thank you,
-- Ravensfire

i think we need a tribal government to start out with.. it just seems to befit the game more

I strongly support the Tribal Government Proposal and hope my fellow citizens will seriously consider voting for it. Why do I find this initiative so desirable and beneficial?

First, of the three proposals it most closely reflects the build as you go spirit of this game. We will start with two leaders – the Warlord and an Elder for our capital city – plus the judiciary, so we immediately will have elections to look forward to. It’s desirable to have a small, lean government early in the game because although everything we do at the beginning is critically important, there are only a few tasks for us to accomplish: found a capital and determine its production queue; decide on a tech path; and begin exploring. Everything affects everything at the beginning of the game, and I anticipate that having fewer officials early on will lead to more focused discussions about gameplay.

Second, although the game begins simple it quickly grows complex. The Tribal Government Proposal anticipates that and assumes that as the needs of our civilization grow, so will our government to meet those needs. For example, I assume that at some point we citizens will decide it might be desirable to have officials to head up our military and foreign affairs, as well as other offices. When that time arrives under the Tribal Government system it will be quite easy to define and add more offices. We will build our government as we go, adding what we need when we decide it benefits us the most. Under the other government systems that have been proposed we will elect many officials early in the game who, quite frankly, will have nothing to do. We’ve all heard the homily that idle hands are the devil’s workshop. If some of our elected officials are idle at the beginning of the game, what mischief might they get up to? Will they be staying up late carousing in the taverns of our capital and raising all sorts of Cain? Who will pay for their luxuries and wild parties? You know who: we hardworking citizens! Let us begin paying elected officials when conditions are right for them to put in an honest day’s work; and not a minute before.

Third, the Coup Concept is brilliant. In the past we’ve had impeachment processes, but they always seemed complicated and tedious to undertake. Also, because impeachment is such a serious word, citizens might hesitate before embarking on this course. Now, there is nothing trivial about a coup; but the mechanics of how we conduct a coup under the Tribal Government Proposal are simple, clear, and straightforward. It may be my perception only, but it seems to me that citizens have an easier way to calling their officials to account if their officials mess up royally. But such retribution won’t be unfair: we need a 60% majority vote in order to effect a coup. The coup concept is a really nice addition to the Demo Game.

As usual, I’ve babbled on too much; but I’ve done so because I think the Tribal Government proposal is excellent. I voted for it; I urge you to do so too.

Tribal it is!! it sounds cool, its simple and fair in its design. It allows for change. Any other vote is a joke VOTE TRIBAL!!!!

I abstained because I think it's way too early to worry about what kind of government we want to have. We start with a couple units. We don't need a government structure right now to make decisions.

I abstain because im not sure

With tribal will we still elected a designated player pool
?

With tribal will we still elected a designated player pool
?
With all of them we elect a DP Pool.

-- Ravensfire

I voted Traditional Government.

A structure is needed IMO - I can see tribal leading to long "discussions" as to when and why expansions to government are needed.

Traditional/Federalist Government

I abstain because im not sure

Same here, I echo your words. :lol:

Voted Traditional (it looks Tribal shall win).

A new experience to me; each Elder working alone by him/herself... shall see.

Best regards,

I say tribal. Much more flexible.

I vote tribal.

Although I'd like to see how a Parlament at 4000 BC might work, I think eairly on simple is better. Tribal it is.

The thing is, the difference between Tribal and Parliamentary amounts to names and language: he uses "tribal" names and I write like a lawyer.

The thing is, the difference between Tribal and Parliamentary amounts to names and language: he uses "tribal" names and I write like a lawyer.
I think there are a few more differences that that! :lol:

We've got two solid proposals though, and that's a good thing. And most importantly, neither of them are the Triumverate! :eek:

-- Ravensfire

I see more differences than just the names. The tribal style is clearly very informal, in terms of not requiring any significant procedures to do things.

We've got two solid proposals though, and that's a good thing.



Which reminds me, what's with including Traditional in the vote? I thought only actual proposals would be included, and was looking forward to responding to those who wanted it but couldn't go to the trouble of writing it. :mischief:

Tribal! Sounds like the best to use in micro-managing all the citys. Plus it allows for alot more people to get involved.

Which reminds me, what's with including Traditional in the vote? I thought only actual proposals would be included, and was looking forward to responding to those who wanted it but couldn't go to the trouble of writing it. :mischief:
It was a very informal proposal, and I didn't want to deal with the :cry: about no traditional option. If it wins, I will enjoy watching the supporters put something together. I would certainly be available for critique and review, but that's it.

-- Ravensfire

Which reminds me, what's with including Traditional in the vote? I thought only actual proposals would be included, and was looking forward to responding to those who wanted it but couldn't go to the trouble of writing it. :mischief:

Some of us have had to work 12 hour shifts for the past 4 days :rolleyes:

Even though it looks like support is in favor of the Tribal System right now I'm gonna see if I can't come up with some sort of draft for a traditional system tonight. At the very least it can be a start on whatever's gonna replace the Tribal system when we get to big...

I still don't get the whole... "let's make a government just to throw it out the window midgame" idea. :crazyeye:

I still don't get the whole... "let's make a government just to throw it out the window midgame" idea. :crazyeye:
That's actually so that those of us that enjoy the political side of the DG get to have our fun too. Or do we not count? :crazyeye:

Here's what I think will happen.
Term 1 - Warlord and Elder at first, 2-3 elders by the end, plus military leader, maybe Witch Doctor (foreign affairs - always send them to see Witch Doctor first).
Term 2 - 2-3 more elders, FA, domestic stuff
Term 3, 4 - reorg into states, rename elder governor, rename other offices, replace coup with something else, another leader, focusing on trade, religion and tech.
Term 5 - Minor reorg of duties

Term 3 is the start of the rewrite. We'll have a great idea of what we need AND the level of participation we've got. That will tell us the number of offices we need, and how to allocate the duties.

Tribal is light when you need it, heavy when you need it, and capable of adjusting. Traditional is just plain heavy.

-- Ravensfire

Well, I didn't see any mechanism in your proposal for adding specialized leaders (ie. Military, Domestic, etc.) just Warlord and Elders.

Also, my plan for initial will be build as you go based (since it seems most support that).

Start with the big three President, Military, Domestic. And then on that we can add whatever we want whenever.

Some of us have had to work 12 hour shifts for the past 4 days :rolleyes:


Me too, but it's self inflicted. I represent my company at a user group meeting twice a year, and now's the time.

I'll be hopeful to see a solid proposal. Even if it's not adopted to start with, keep in mind that we might just need it, and it will be handy to have it ready. :)

Well, I didn't see any mechanism in your proposal for adding specialized leaders (ie. Military, Domestic, etc.) just Warlord and Elders.

It's easy - just create it with an initiative. That's the entire concept behind the build as you go system. Start small, and when you need another office, create it. This Tribal system is built around that core concept.

I made an assumption that this would be understood. I'll have to think about adding a clause in the next revision. "Additional offices may be created as needed by initiative."

-- Ravensfire

I made an assumption that this would be understood. I'll have to think about adding a clause in the next revision. "Additional offices may be created as needed by initiative."

-- Ravensfire

One more thing you might want to put in there...

By simple majority (may be true of all initiatives, in which case that might not be needed) or 2/3 or whatnot?

I imagine simple majority, but you might need to clarify.

I think that tribalism is a great idea. I also think that it wont have to be changed as we grow but that if we style it around the Roman Empire. To do this i propose (and this will probaply be hashed out after the vote) we make the warlord the elder of the capitol and we give the warlord control over troop movement that leaves our borders, construction of improvements, gives the authority to build world wonder, national wonder, and projects in any city, and construction in cities for civil defense during wartimes. If there is a coup against the warlord then it should be a coup against all the other elders and that all the elders are removed and that the new warlord chooses all the new elders if successful. Warlords should also have a life limit like mabey one age or less and after that the warlord can become governor of any city (but the capitol of course). Tell me what you think.

I'm in favour of tribal... Traditional seems not ready yet.... And parliamentary is too complex for now...

I think

Hey Furisus, Where abouts are you from?

Here's what I think will happen.
Term 1 - Warlord and Elder at first, 2-3 elders by the end, plus military leader, maybe Witch Doctor (foreign affairs - always send them to see Witch Doctor first).

This sounds like fun. So how do we decide who the Elder and Warlord are? How about highest number of posts for Warlord and earliest CivFanatics join date for Elder? Not sure what criteria we could use for Witch Doctor.

This sounds like fun. So how do we decide who the Elder and Warlord are? How about highest number of posts for Warlord and earliest CivFanatics join date for Elder? Not sure what criteria we could use for Witch Doctor.

I think we'd use the Constitution we approved for this one....


Article D - Elections
Terms of service of all elected and appointed offices shall be determined in advance of the beginning of such term, as further defined by law.
All Election and other polls in which specific individuals are chosen by name shall be private polls, and not public polls.
The candidate with the highest vote total is the winner of an election poll, regardless of whether such vote total is a majority of votes cast or not.
Should two or more candidates tie for the most votes, as many runoff elections shall be held as needed to resolve the election, as further defined by law.

Though in all fairness, the proposal does not explicitly say the Warlord and Elders are elected. Nor does the constitution say all official positions must be elected (unless I missed it).

This clarification may still need to be added.

Again piping up for parliamentary:

We need to have a system that can handle the complexity of the future. Parliamentary is designed with the Middle Ages and onward in mind--that's two-thirds of the game, if we play it through to modern times!--and I'm not sure how Tribal will handle that kind of complexity. I suspect that some people (probably not enough to affect the poll) voted on the basis of the obvious simplicity of the system, without taking into account that we would eventually need to change the structure of government. It's much easier to have the whole thing set up at the beginning and ignore pointless provisions than to have to add new stuff on top of an old one.

Furthermore, there's no reason that the cool titles couldn't be adapted to parliamentary, and on top of that, parliamentary does not address Governors--I have no real problem with the tribal way of doing that.

I suspect that some people (probably not enough to affect the poll) voted on the basis of the obvious simplicity of the system, without taking into account that we would eventually need to change the structure of government.

This is one of the reasons I voted for the tribal system, as I knew it would eventually be replaced, as pointed out by its creator. Sorry Lock, but your system was just too complicated for me and Raven's wasn't. If I had voted for yours it would have more than likely been a permanent government that I didn't fully comprehend. Raven's I do for the most part understand it, its simpler to read. We know that the tribal system will eventually be replaced and if you plan ahead maybe you can make your system simpler and easier to read. You've got time (if yours loses out) to iron out the kinks and educate us, as in the citizens, about it.

I tried to explain it more clearly in my most recent edit. Try reading all the spoilers (except the first one).

Tribal! Sounds like the best to use in micro-managing all the citys. Plus it allows for alot more people to get involved.
misread ops

We need to have a system that can handle the complexity of the future.Maybe this system would work nice in the future. But the future isn't now. And thats the beauty of the build-as-you-go attitude. We are eventually going to need a new government. These rules aren't written in stone like they have been in the past demogame. In game when the citizens yearn for a new government, it would be a good idea to bring this back up again.

Voted for tribal because I think that is the best way to start the game.

What if the war cheif (which i think should be renamed high cheif) was able to create other offices.

I strongly support the Tribal Government Proposal and hope my fellow citizens will seriously consider voting for it...

I recall a discussion many demogames ago - I think even Civ3 DG1 or DG2 where some (I think it was Strider, and a few others in fact) wanted a government based on the government we had in the game.

I suppose it could've worked with Civ3 (substituting Despotism for Tribal Council), but now we have 5 civics, and 5 possible civics each (3125 possible governments!).

I could see it adding to roleplay when we're a Fuedalistic Therocracy, or a Free Voting Evinormentalist.


We should still have some sort of hybrid with multiple advisors, though, so it doesn't potentially leave people out of running for offices.

Perhaps one interesting idea is, choosing the "Prime Minister" so to speak (Primary Advisor) who gets to be the DP based on the government type. (i.e., Despotism, the President, Heredetary Rule, Domestic, and so on).

i dont mind traditional, but can the citizens impeach said supreme ruler?
pardon my fast typing.

i dont mind traditional, but can the citizens impeach said supreme ruler?
pardon my fast typing.

Well, in Traditional, there really isn't a "Supreme Ruler."

Power is shared between several officials, with the ability to add more.

That said, there is a way to impeach any of the officials. I overlooked it originally but have since added it to the initiative.

This poll has closed, with Tribal Government being chosen.

Thanks to all that voted!

-- Ravensfire

woot for tribal government! ;)

Great, good bye Traditionalism :shake:.

Great, good bye Traditionalism :shake:.
And there was much, much rejoicing!

:band:

-- Ravensfire

Great, good bye Traditionalism :shake:.

Will you still participate, CG? It would be a great shame to lose you- you seem enlightened and experienced in these Demogames