Hi guys,

After cruising between threads, I've found this one (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=199344). If the author is ok, -of course-, what do you think to use it for RFC?

I think this'd be brilliant =]

That's a very impressive list. Should be easy to implement, too.

I would love to see this in the mod!

Merci l'ami!

it is vor vanilla only

Rhye,

As far as I can see, it's also for Warlord. We've all civs implemented in RFC (Celtics, Korean and Vickings are on the list).

fine then, but I'm not sure I have time to add them by the end of february.

Is there a way to we help you to make the implementation faster and easier on your side?

Probably someone have to make a list for the Babylon...

maybe someone could make it a patch downloadable until Rhye has time to put it in...

I'm completely agree to implement this. In fact, I did proposed it... somewhere. I'm tired to see Homer to be born in Tokio.

About the list for Babylon, it will be pretty difficult, as long as knowledge of individual persons from that period is very limited. But we can use some of their kings:

Hammurabi: GP (explanation: GPs can discover Code of Laws)
Burna-Buriash: GM (he led an important trade agreement with Akhenaton).
Kurigalzu: GE (moved the capital and built a new Palace).
Kadashman-Enlil I: GM (he arranged another important "wife-sealed trade agreement" with the Egyptian Pharaoh Amenhotep III).
Nebuchadrezzar I: GG (drift out the elamites from Babylonian land, by force, of course).
Ninurta: GP (built a cult around himself)
Tiglath-pileser III: GG (he conquered most of the "known world" for the Assyrians).
Marduk-apal-iddina II: GG (fighted the assyrians and mantained the independance of Babylon for a decade).
Sargon II: GG (fighted a lot of wars)
Nabopolassar: GG (another warrive king)
Nebuchadnezzar II: GE (built the Hanging Gardens!)

There are more, but now I've got no time to finish, the meal's on the table. Maybe tomorrow I'll continue to enlarge the list.

'Til then, have a nice time! ;)

Nebuchadnezzar II: GE (built the Hanging Gardens!)

Built, or commissioned? :p

Thanks Fearuin,

I've got another one :

Shamah-Kazim as Great Engineer. He was an official nominated by Hammurapi to manage fields in the south. Productivity knew heavy improvements under him.

I think we still need several Great Prophets, a bunch of Great Merchant, a handfull of Great Engineer and all Great Artists and Great Scientists we can spot while we are at it.

First off, let me thank you all for such an interest in my mod. I am very happy to see it going into so many others--first Total Realism, then the Great Person mod. Maybe Firaxis will even include it in the next expansion!

To answer your questions, yes, there are two versions, one for vanilla and one for warlords, so you can use whatever is appropriate for this version of Rhye's and Fall. I also have a partial list of great people for Babylon already, but I'll do a little research and see what I can come up with. Stay tuned...

-First Pass-
(Note that some of these names are kings who commissioned great public works, so are listed in the area of their appropriate contributions.)

GP: Ninurta, Berossus, Enanepada, Ahiqar
GA: Enheduanna, Sin-liqe-unninni, Entemena
GS: Sudines, Kidinnu,
GE: Nebuchadnezzar II, Gudea, Puzur-Ashur III, Shamah-Kazim,
GM: Burna-Buriash, Kurigalzu, Kadashman-Enlil I,
GG: Nebuchadrezzar, Tiglath-pileser III, Marduk-apal-iddina II, Sargon, Nabopolassar, Idrimi, Ashurbanipal

fearuin and Gaias_Ocatvius, may I ask from where you got the names? I've been yearning for a relieable source where I can get the names you listed :).

Let's not forget, we still need 'Great Prophets', I propose these two:
1. Utnapishitm: Noah.
2. Ibrahim: Abraham.

Two prophets who were thought to be from Mesopotamia, Utnapishtim is even a character in the Epic of Gilgamesh.

Great Prophets:
1. Utnapishtim.
2. Ibrahim.

Great Generals:
1. Sennacherib.
2. Tiglath-pileser III.
3. Nebuchadnezzar II.
4. Hammurabi.
5. Sargon of Akkad.
6. Shalmaneser III.
7. Harun al-Rashid.

Great Engineers:
1. Ur-Nammu.
2. Nabupolassar.
3. Naram-sin.
4. Gudea.

Great Scientists:
1. Sin-leqi-unninni.
2. Jabir-bin-Hayyan.
3. Tapputi-Belatekallim.

Great Artists:
1. Gudea.
2. Samsu-ditana.
3. Sin-leqi-unninni.
(I will continue this list after I refer to my books about this subject ;))

Do we need more names? I don't think so.

Would be nice to have a few more Great Prophets, but other than that it's quite a comprehensive list =]]

Would be nice to have a few more Great Prophets, but other than that it's quite a comprehensive list =]]
Thanks Toaster :), I've added more prophets to the list, this time it is Younis (Jonah in the Bible).
THE UPDATED LIST:
Great Prophets:
1. Utnapishtim.
2. Ibrahim.
3. Younis.

Great Generals:
1. Sennacherib.
2. Tiglath-pileser III.
3. Nebuchadnezzar II.
4. Hammurabi.
5. Sargon of Akkad.
6. Shalmaneser III.
7. Harun al-Rashid.

Great Engineers:
1. Ur-Nammu.
2. Nabupolassar.
3. Naram-sin.
4. Gudea.
5. Ibn-Duraid.
6. Ibn-Hawqal.

Great Scientists:
1. Sin-leqi-unninni.
2. Jabir-bin-Hayyan.
3. Tapputi-Belatekallim.
4. Sudines.
5. Kidenas.
6. Nabourianos.
7. Ahmed Ibn Yusuf.
8. Al-Asma'i.
9. Al-Baghdadi.
10. Al-Baqilani.
11. Ibn-Duraid.
12. Al-Kindi.

Great Artists:
1. Gudea.
2. Samsu-ditana.
3. Sin-leqi-unninni.
(I will continue this list after I refer to my books about this subject ;))

EDIT: Oops, my bad :p, we still do not have Great Merchants...
Great Merchants:
1. Sargon of Akkad (he's in the generals list but he also regulated many trades with India and the people of Dalmun).
2. Burna-Briash.
3. Kadashman-Enlil I.

I have now even updated the Engineers and Scientists lists.

NOTE: I think we should drop the numericals (III, II, I), they wouldn't make sense anyway in-game. I wonder if we can introduce a system so that once a Scientist appears, the next time his name appears he would have a 'II' added to his/her name.
Should be a nice flavour added, sort of like the Delhi, then New Delhi system.

Are we done with the Babylonian List now?

Gilgamesh as GP?

He was a lengedairy king, 2/3 god, 1/3 man, and he went looking for a herb that gives eternal live and found it, but a sneak ate it. He also found a men than surevived the Flood.(Gilgamesh epos)

Gilgamesh as GP?

He was a lengedairy king, 2/3 god, 1/3 man, and he went looking for a herb that gives eternal live and found it, but a sneak ate it. He also found a men than surevived the Flood.(Gilgamesh epos)
I wasn't sure where to add him, but that's true, I'll add him in the list of GPs.

BTW, now that you've mentioned it, The man that survived the flood in the Epic of Gilgamesh is 'Utnapishtim', or Noah.

Moving on...
THE UPDATED LIST:
Great Prophets:
1. Utnapishtim.
2. Ibrahim.
3. Younis.

Great People:
1. Gilgamesh.
2. Enkidu.
3. Al-Mansur.
4. Shalmanasser III.
5. Shamshi-Adad.
6. Shab'ad.

Great Generals:
1. Sennacherib.
2. Tiglath-pileser III.
3. Nebuchadnezzar II.
4. Hammurabi.
5. Sargon of Akkad.
6. Shalmaneser III.
7. Harun al-Rashid.

Great Engineers:
1. Ur-Nammu.
2. Nabupolassar.
3. Naram-sin.
4. Gudea.
5. Ibn-Duraid.
6. Ibn-Hawqal.

Great Scientists:
1. Sin-leqi-unninni.
2. Jabir-bin-Hayyan.
3. Tapputi-Belatekallim.
4. Sudines.
5. Kidenas.
6. Nabourianos.
7. Ahmed Ibn Yusuf.
8. Al-Asma'i.
9. Al-Baghdadi.
10. Al-Baqilani.
11. Ibn-Duraid.
12. Al-Kindi.

Great Artists:
1. Gudea.
2. Samsu-ditana.
3. Sin-leqi-unninni.
(I will continue this list after I refer to my books about this subject :))

Great Merchants:
1. Sargon of Akkad (he's in the generals list but he also regulated many trades with India and the people of Dalmun).
2. Burna-Briash.
3. Kadashman-Enlil I.
4. Sindibad.

fearuin and Gaias_Ocatvius, may I ask from where you got the names? I've been yearning for a relieable source where I can get the names you listed :).

Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kings_of_Babylon). God bless wikipedia! ;) .

fearuin and Gaias_Ocatvius, may I ask from where you got the names? I've been yearning for a relieable source where I can get the names you listed :).

Well, I guess fearuin beat me to it. But I also got a few names from ancient translated sources that I have come across in books and whatnot, such as Idrimi (founder of a Sumerian dynasty).

I do have to question if we really want Utanapishtim as a great prophet--it's unlikely that he ever really existed (he's just a character in the Epic of Gilgamesh). Gilgamesh, on the other hand, is almost certainly a real historical person, though legends have grown up around him over time.

I guess it's really just an issue of realism; I'm not trying to detract from your pretty good list.

BTW, I noticed that you included some Arab GP as well; this might be a problem since I have them listed already under Arabia, so they might be born twice in the course of the game.

This would be an awesome addition, if do-able. :goodjob:

seems to me like it would take a lot of time merely typing it in and whatnot. maybe it will be added with the 'optimal' versions?

I do have to question if we really want Utanapishtim as a great prophet--it's unlikely that he ever really existed (he's just a character in the Epic of Gilgamesh). Gilgamesh, on the other hand, is almost certainly a real historical person, though legends have grown up around him over time.
Well, Utnapishtim is atleast considered to be the Mesopotamian name for Noah. I'll tell you some things ;):
1. Noah's ark is thought to have landed in Mesopotamia (if not then near).
2. Noah is thought to have lived approx. 900 years, that is one of the main reasons why many archaeologists hypothesised that this is why he was thought to be immortal in the epic of Gilgamesh.

So even if it is uncertain that he existed, it is -almost- certain that he was Noah :).

BTW, I noticed that you included some Arab GP as well; this might be a problem since I have them listed already under Arabia, so they might be born twice in the course of the game.
That's right, I included some Abbasid names, mainly because the Abbasids were medieval Mesopotamia (Iraq). So the other list (the Arabian one) can be editted accoridingly.

I tell you what, I found a website that listed virtually ALL the Arab scientists, so what we can do is deduce Abbasid names from the list of Arabian GPs, and replace them with other Arabian ones :). Sounds good?

I don't think it'd be a hard job compiling the list, we already have the list ready for other civs, all I need is to add tabs for Babylon and add the Babylonian names. Voila, it is merely 2-3 files editted.

You found a site with nearly ALL the Arab scientists? Where is it? This sounds like a gold mine for me! :)

I understand what you're saying about Utanapishtim, about the similarities with the Genesis flood and Noah. As you say, many people believe that they are in fact the same person, i.e. that Utanapishtim in the Gilgamesh epic is a kind of fractured Mesopotamian memory of Noah. I'm just not certain whether it's appropriate to include him (Utanapishtim) because of the question of historicity or applicability. He isn't exactly the same kind of prophet as, say, Abraham. And this is sort of like having Romulus or King Arthur in; yes, their legends were probably originally inspired by real people too, but we don't know who those real people are.

But either way it looks like it'll work. I suppose it's not any different from how I used kings' names for different GP. :) Between the two of us, we have already, what, seven great prophets? That's a pretty good start.

I'm perplexed by the roman list. Almost all the prophets are christian saints, but Rome was pagan for a long time.
For the GS, Cato and Cicero are not fitting their role of politicians and horators. And I'm pretty sure that Livio was an historian, maybe better for a GA.
Leonardo da Vinci as GE is fine, but he can also be an A or a S, he was everything...

Columbus was not Spanish, but Italian. He must be in the Roman list.

The whole "and Noah lived for 900 years" business in the Bible, I always took to mean Lunar years, which would make Noah approximately 75 - still a venerable age for a time in which most people didnt make it past their 30's.

Often people in the early bible were dynasties, not one person, and that's why they lived so long.

There's a whole section devoted to listing names and corresponding ages - it includes Noah - I can't remember the part of the bible (somewhere in Old Testament, somewhere near the beginning!!) as it's been many years since I last read it and I aint a Christian ;)

All of them divided by 12 work out to be between 45 and 75 if you take it that they are written in as lunar ones.

I prefer to put Hammurabi as a GP. I know, he wasn't a prophet, but he managed to do something that, in-game, only GP are enable to do: rush research of Code of Laws. Maybe, in another conditions, Hammurabi played a different role, if Babilonia founded one of the mayor religions, for example. Another "Babilonian" GP is Ali Ibn Abi Talib (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali). He was the founder of the shii branch of Islam, reputed as saint, and, most important: he was Arabia, but ruled many years in Kufa (modern Irak), and his death caused a war between Iraq (with capital in Kufa) and Arabia (with capital in Damascus, on that period).

Hope this is useful.

Let me try to address everyone's questions individually.

Riker:
For the Roman prophets, yes I am aware that they are all early Christian / Roman Catholic figures. This was done largely because that is what most people are familiar with today when they think of the Roman Church, even though it would be equally correct to include pagan priests and whatnot. Rome existed for 1,000 years before becoming Christianized, but's it been that way for twice as long. I thought about including pagan figures, but who exactly would be best to represent pagan Rome? There were many holders of the Pontifex Maximus office, including Caesar; I don't know of any particular one that stands out. Likewise, the Vestal Virgins were famous as a body, not really any one in particular (except the last one, who--you guessed it--converted to Christianity). Yes, it's a little unbalanced, but such are the fortunes of history. If I'd gone the other way, I'm sure people would have complained that there were no Christian leaders in. But don't worry, I can always add names later. There's no limit (I hope).

About Livy and Livius, these are two separate people. One wrote the history of Rome, the other was a poet. And yes, I accidentally reversed them in the list... once again. It will be corrected.

Cato was also a historian; Cicero was a political theorist, philosopher and writer in addition to being the most famous orator in history. I admit that I just copied these names from the C3C Rise of Rome scenario, but they do fit.

Columbus' famous voyage was done under the Spanish flag, and that is why he is included with Spain. Same thing with Apollodorus--he's a Greek! But he was Trajan and Hadrian's engineer (helped rebuild the Pantheon), so he's included as a Roman GE.



As for the Noah / Utanapishtim issue, let me say again that I don't think he should be included, not because of any age-related issues or even because some argue that he never existed, but because I don't think he quite fits the bill of a great prophet. These people represent philosophers, religious thinkers, founders of various sects, theologians, bishops, reformers and the like, and neither Noah nor his Mesopotamian counterpart really works that well in this category. Abraham does; Jonah does, in a way; Noah doesn't.


fearuin:
Hammurabi is the Babylonian leader in the game, right? For this reason, I don't think it would be the best idea to have him as a GP. Doesn't make sense if you're playing as Hammurabi and you find out that you have been born all of a sudden. (Of course, it doesn't make sense to have leaders living 6,000 years, but we won't get into that...:)) There are plenty of other people we can use.

Let me try to address everyone's questions individually.

Of course, it doesn't make sense to have leaders living 6,000 years, but we won't get into that...:).

I always thought that, when it's said at the beginning of the game "...your people have vested in you absolute power"
it was meant that you became something like a demigod :) . But I agree your explanation.

Hi guys :),
Just so you know, I've created the code for the Babylonian 'Great Poeple', it should be as easy as 'cut and paste' to add them to the game :).

However I still need to alter the other names, (some of you weren't fond of some of the other civs' names -Columbus comes to mind).

What I need is a list of what you think should be deleted/ changed. Leave Arabia for me, I'll deal with it.

The faster I get the names the faster I'll finish compiling them, I'm hoping to finish this in the next (FINAL) release :).

OK, here is it. I'll take care of the civ I know better: mine, SPAIN! Here it's shown the entire original list, with the name correctly spelled in Spanish, and with the names of the GP I feel that should be in (however, you have done a great work, Gaius Octavius ;) ). Note that foreigner people that lived or done its work under Spanish flag or in Spanish territory (like Apóstol Santiago - Saint James, son of Zebedee) are included.

SPAIN

GP: San Ignacio de Loyola, Junípero Serra, Bartolomé de Las Casas, Juan de Sepúlveda, Santa Teresa de Avila, Apóstol Santiago, Alfonso III el Santo, Abderramán III

GA: Pablo Picasso, Miguel de Cervantes, Diego de Silva Velázquez, Garcilaso de la Vega, El Greco, Francisco de Goya, Salvador Dalí, Arcipreste de Hita, Martín Códax, Lucio Anneo Séneca, Azorín, Benito Pérez Galdós, Federico García Lorca, Alfonso X el Sabio

GS: Juan de Ortega, Gerardo de Cremona, Joao Baptista Lavanha, Fausto de Elhúyar, Azarquiel, Miguel Servet, Santiago Ramón y Cajal, Avicena, Juan de la Cierva, Isaac Peral,

GE: Juan de Herrera, Ildefons Cerdà, Juan de la Cierva, Narcís Monturiol, Esteban Terradas i Illa, Leonardo Torres y Quevedo, Maestro Esteban, Julio Cervera Baviera, Alejandro Goicoechea, Santiago Calatrava Valls

GM: Cristobal Colón, Fernando de Magallanes, Ponce de León, Hernando de Soto, Juan Sebastián Elcano, Alvar Núñez Cabeza de Vaca, Pánfilo Narváez, Vasco Núñez de Balboa, Amancio Ortega Gaona,

GG: El Cid, Viriato, Francisco Coronado, Hernán Cortés, Francisco Pizarro, Felipe II, Gonzalo Fernández de Córdoba, Don Pelayo, Alfonso VI, Jaime I el Conquistador, Felipe V d'Anjou, General Prim, Francisco Franco


I guess they're enough. They might be others, but they didn't come to my mind, so they shouldn't be such important.

However I still need to alter the other names, (some of you weren't fond of some of the other civs' names -Columbus comes to mind).

Oh, come on, we don't really need to edit the other lists, do we? ;) You haven't seen my "big" list yet--there are many more people there. Besides, if people disagree on only one name or two, well, it's very easy for them to move 'em around in notepad...

I just can't imagine Columbus as belonging anywhere else but Spain. Besides, lists of any kind always generate controversy. :crazyeye:

Likewise, the Vestal Virgins were famous as a body, not really any one in particular (except the last one, who--you guessed it--converted to Christianity).

You sparked my curiosity and wiki'ed Vestal Virgins...

I found this:

List of well-known Vestal Virgins

* Aquilia Severa, whom Emperor Elagabalus married amid considerable scandal.
* Coelia Concordia, the last head of the order.
* Rhea Silvia, a possibly mythical mother of Rome's founders.
* Tarpeia, who betrayed Rome to the Sabines, and for whom the Tarpeian Rock is named.

Just thought I'd share...

Oh, come on, we don't really need to edit the other lists, do we? ;) You haven't seen my "big" list yet--there are many more people there. Besides, if people disagree on only one name or two, well, it's very easy for them to move 'em around in notepad...

I just can't imagine Columbus as belonging anywhere else but Spain. Besides, lists of any kind always generate controversy. :crazyeye:

I just thought he meant to correct any errors on spelling, and such. That was my purpouse, and even if he didn't have done, I would have done it for my own initiative. I personally added some names because I felt some of them missing. But if you say you have a bigger list, you're welcome. However, the thing is the "deadline": as long as I know, it seems that Rhye doesn't want to delay the final release to next month, so we're in pretty rush. Edit the list later can be easily done, as you say, but just correcting the actual one and add a few more names will just fit to include your modcomp into RFC.

Fearuin, thanks for the list :thumbsup:.

Octavius, what bigger list? if atleast you have the names (no code), send them to me to compile, I don't want to have to go through the process of updating a few weeks later :).

Originally posted by fearuin
SPAIN
GM: Cristobal Colón

By the same token, Leonardo would be a "French great man" (you know, he worked ‘under the flag’ of François I) and Einstein an "American great scientist" (he taught at Princeton and became an American citizen)... somehow, this doesn't sound right.


GA: Lucio Anneo Séneca

Ok. I'm getting lost here. Columbus was (very probably) born in Genoa but "worked" for the Spaniards, so you put him in the Spanish list. Seneca was born in Cordoba but "worked" for the Romans... so shouldn't he appear in the Roman list? If not, why don't you include Trajan and Hadrian as great generals for Spain? Trajan was born in Italica, in the province Hispania Baetica, near contemporary Seville...

But in the case of Spain, the value of the discoveries of Colombo didn't go the the treasury of Italy (rome in the game) but to Spain, that's why I think he need to be in the Spain List. ( same to Eistain, is better him in the American List than the German List :p ).

And for Leonardo, the Sistine Chapell is in Rome, and this is a CIV Wonder. So you can say he was used by the Roman Civilization to Rush the Wonder ;D. So he should be in the Roman List...

Originally posted by Edungeon
And for Leonardo, the Sistine Chapell is in Rome

I think you are confusing Leonardo with Michelangelo here. :) By the way, Mona Lisa is in Le Louvre, and, putting it the game terms (like you did for Cristoforo Colombo) Leonardo's art has probably contributed more to France's "culture rating" than Italy's; you might even think of him as a ‘culture bomb’ exploding somewhere in France... so would you say that Leonardo is a French great man after all?

Oh yeah! XDDDDD Really Sorry... @_@ I was really confused :(

Well, in that way... Yeah, but, well Mona Lisa was always in Paris? If yes, i really don't see any problem u_u'

And Einstein for Germany, as he discovered the 2 relativity theories while living in Germany (or Switersland, I'm not sure).

He discovered that in Germany but not for Germans. I think that in cIV terms he is an American GS.

I don't really care in which list Einstein is, but what is the reason Einstein is more American than European? AFAIK Einstein published his most influential and important works in Switzerland and (from 1914 till 1932) in Berlin. What did he really add to modern physics from 1933 till 1955? Why are these last 22 years more important than EVERYTHING he has done before?

Sorry, I was wrong. He should be in German list. My bad.

I would personally count him as German, but can I just ask, he did help america get nuclear weapons didnt he? That seems pretty big to me.

It was quite important but not as important as his works in 1905.

Nuclear weapons were "quite important"?, anyways I say he was a genius before he went to the USA but why not just add him to both lists, then if he comes up twice just go "huh, he must have moved"...

xD what, like,

Einstein, born in Germany, 1208 AD

Moved to America 1965 AD

Nice world you live in there...

yeah that sounds about right ;)

lol I'm sure Einstein would love this debate over nationality.

Nuclear weapon compared to other Einstein's jobs is just "quite important".

Compared to ALL technological and scientific advancments of the last 100 years I would say it was deeply significant...

Compared to ALL technological and scientific advancments of the last 100 years I would say it was deeply significant...

I don't think so. Nuclear weapons were important but biological weapons would cause cold war too... And in WW2 Japan would lose without American tests of nuclear bombs.

I personally would count him as German. Simply because I can't imagine him without a strong German accent and his famed frizzyness :mischief:

Yeah I too think he was german, and the cold war just wouldnt be the same without MAD...

Was Einstein part of the Manhattan Project? He might be the one who helped initiate it with the famous letter to president Roosevelt, but he was not into quantum mechanics and nuclear physics that much as Oppenheimer, Feynman, etc. E=mc² is not enough to build a bomb, is it? Apart from that he was a philantrop, pacifist and shaped by European humanism (and Kant's philosophy).

Since we can find a lot of Great Scientists for both Germany and the US, resolving the nationality of a man who detested nationalism should not be a prime issue. :)

Apart from that: how long do you really see the name of a Great Person? I use them for one purpose or another pretty quickly, the game does not offer me information on the background of the historical person and I usually know it already or don't care at all. Therefore the only name I'm stuck with is the name of a Great General who leads one of my (or someone else's) armies. Seeing Rome using Hamilcar Barca, or Carthage Scipio Africanus can be weird at times...

Ok. I'm getting lost here. Columbus was (very probably) born in Genoa but "worked" for the Spaniards, so you put him in the Spanish list. Seneca was born in Cordoba but "worked" for the Romans... so shouldn't he appear in the Roman list? If not, why don't you include Trajan and Hadrian as great generals for Spain? Trajan was born in Italica, in the province Hispania Baetica, near contemporary Seville...

Whoops... my apologies. You're right, he should be in the Roman list.

It seems Columbus and Einstein are creating a lot of controversy here... OK, I'll give my opinion.
Columbus: he should be in the Spanish list. It is accepted that he was born in Italy, though this is a very controversial fact. I don't believe the Spanish historians that argue that he was Spanish. In any case, it is documented that he documented his future trip in Spain, and probably with Norse sailors. In fact, his own brother was a map drawer, and worked in Seville. His uncle was probably Spanish too, and made the contacts to afford the Pinzon brothers' services, who were also Spanish (and Galician, BTW).The Pinzon brothers were the captains of the smaller ships, and the Santa Maria was to be directed by Columbus itself. There was a project to build the ships, but the money was needed. He tried to get financing for his expedicion on France and on Portugal, because they were richer, to be neglected. So he tried in Spain. He was neglected again: the Spanish treasury was not enough to afford the high sum he was asking. But, when he was about to pass the frontier to offer his services for Portuguese, for a lower bill, a messenger stopped him and said that the Crown finally got the financing. It is said that Queen Isabella sold her jewells, but this is merely a legend. In any case, the agreement was done, and he worked for the Spanish.

Einstein: it's difficult to say if he should be in the American or in the German list. But, if you want to include him as a GS, he should be German. He worked for Germans during his most brightest works, but when he retired to America, he didn't stopped. He started to work in the Manhattan Project (Yes, he did!), but his compromise was "to frighten but not to use". When the bombs were used, he retired all his support to the American government, he felt betrayed, and started a heavy political campaign with many pacifist and socialist messages, as seen in the article "Why socialism?". His political activity was obviusly pursued by McCarthy's anticommunist campaign, so he was tempted to flee to Israel. He was offered in 1952 to become president of the new country, but he refused: though Israel was a better place to develop his ideas of socialism, he had to refuse because he was convinced that Israel won't become a pacifist country. During this period he made the Russell-Einstein Manifest, asking for a Wordly Union, and the eradication of nuclear weapons. After this, he was affected by the Alzheimer Syndrome, and he smoothly vanished from public activities, until his death. As you see, most of the activity of Einstein after fleeing from Germany involved politics, not science.

Well, I did it again: I gave you a history lesson. Sorry for the long chattering. ;)

Octavius, what bigger list? if atleast you have the names (no code), send them to me to compile, I don't want to have to go through the process of updating a few weeks later :).
Gaius Octavius where are you?

E=MC² is a part of the special theory of relativity (1905, Bern) and is the idea behind the Bomb, so... make him German.

His most important work on the bomb itself was sending a lettre to the US president that they should build the bomb before the Nazi's did, because else they would be in big trouble.

That letter was not the only thing. As I have said, he co-operated with Oppenheimer in the Manhattan Project, until its bitter end. But when it was all done, he was frightened: it had a worse effect than he could have ever imaginated.

If you want, make Oppenheimer an American GS, and everyone will be happy.

Since there were people arguing for Einstein's time in America being more important than his time in Europe (at least that is what putting his name on the American list means to me;) ), I hoped to get some good info of what he actually acomlished in the US and why this makes him American or more important for the US than Germany. E.g. I have no problem with G.F. Händel being an English/British Great Artist. He spent his most productive time in England.
Einstein in contrast was already famous and in his 50s, when he stayed in America for the rest of his life.
But I guess I have to read a biography to get my answer.:)

E=MC² is a part of the special theory of relativity (1905, Bern) and is the idea behind the Bomb.

Yes and no. I'm neither a physicist nor chemist, but your statement is a bit misleading. You can use this formula to calculate the amount of energy you "gain" by splitting an atom into two smaller ones or fusing two nuclei into a new one. You have to know a "little" about nuclear physics to build an atomic bomb, the theory of relativity is not quite enough. And AFAIK Einstein was not the most important nuclear physicist (or chemist) of his time.

I personally think he should be German, however I am afraid that I have little evidence to back it up, someone should consult wikipedia...

Just some key facts:
1879 Born in Ulm
1880-94 lived in Munich
1896 finished secondary school in Aarau, Switzerland gave up German citizenship (apperently in order to avoid military service)
1896-1900 studied in Zürich
1901 become Swiss citizen
1902 started working at the Swiss Patent Office (to evaluate patents on electrical devices)
1905 annus mirabilis (papers)
1907 doctorate
1908 licenced as a privatdozent
1909 associate professor in Zürich
1911 professor in Prague
1912 professor in Zürich
1914-32 professor in Berlin, member of the Prussian Acedemy of Science, became German citizen once again (in1914)
1917-32 director of the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute (predecessor of Max Planck Institute) for Physics
1916/7 general relativity, on quantum mechanics of radiation
1921 Nobel prize
1920s Bose-Einstein statistics
1927 coinvented with Szilárd the Einstein refrigerator
Dezember 1932 guest professor at Pricton University
1933 decides not to return to Germany (Hitler became chancellor in January 1933) and broke all ties to Germany (renounced his German citizenship and membership of the Prussian Acedemy of Science),
1933-55 worked at the newly-founded Institute for Advanced Study, trying to develop a unified field theory
1939 famous letter to Roosevelt
1940 American citizenship (next to his Swiss one)
1955 died on 18th April

According to wikipedia and http://www.princetonhistory.org/museum_alberteinstein.cfm he was not part of the Manhattan project.

Then my vote is defonatly for him to count as German (as hitler isnt thier leader ;))

Prestidigitator:
The bigger list I referred to is the new one I have just released, with over 2000 names in it. I'll post it on my thread page. [Edit: you can find it in posts 49 and 50.]



This Einstein issue seems to have opened up a can of worms. Let me say first that I am aware that Einstein's major contributions were made not in America, but while he was a patent clerk in Switzerland (not Germany!). 1905 was a big year for him. He made four contributions: an explanation of the photoelectric effect (which got him the Nobel Prize), his paper on special relativity, his explanation of Brownian motion, and finally the derivation of E=mc². Hence, if you are going to use that as a measure of where he should be, then he should be in Wyz_sub10's Switzerland list in CIV Gold (the Swiss are in that, right?). Anyway, he had to flee Germany because of the Nazis' rise to power, and well, it just doesn't seem quite right to have him in there because of it. So many others, like Heisenberg, stayed behind. Einstein lived in the U.S. until 1955 and was a part of Princeton's Institue of Advanced Study, and as some people already pointed out he was behind the push to get the atom bomb before the Germans. He also worked on unification the past few decades of his life, though never succeeded. If you're going to nitpick I guess it really can work either way, but I think more people would complain about him being in with Germany than in the American list.

The problem with Einstein is that he kind of transcends national boundaries; he's an icon. And since he did so many things in different places, it's hard to pin it down exactly.

Something similar could be said about Enrico Fermi--he made contributions for both Italy and America. I just put him in the Italian list to make things come out more even. Einstein in America was just a given to me. (He was in Civ 3's American list; that's just what people today associate him with, plain and simple, and for better or worse.) I really think everyone's making a mountain out of a molehill.

By the way, I just happen to be a physics student, so I find this to be a very interesting and funny conversation. And as my professor once told me, E=mc² is one of the least useful equations in physics, despite its notoriety.

Is it possible to have hhim in both lists but only come up once, so whoever gets him first has him? Or we could exclude him as he seemed transend national boundries and put that he isnt on the list and why in one of the quotes when you open it up

1933 decides not to return to Germany (Hitler became chancellor in January 1933) and broke all ties to Germany (renounced his German citizenship and membership of the Prussian Acedemy of Science),


It seems as if putting him on the German list would make little sense, considering that he renounced his citizenship.

as my professor once told me, E=mc² is one of the least useful equations in physics, despite its notoriety.

Your professor probably wasn’t serious when he/she said that. In practical applications, the equation for relativistic energy is very useful when combined with the equation for relativistic momentum, the result being E²=p²c²+(mc²)². This is convenient for calculations, not just interesting from a theoretical point of view, as the momentum of a particle is often known rather than its velocity.

If you're going to start talking about Physics, I'm leaving! :suicide:

However, the Einstein thing can easily be solutioned: make him Independent. Iknow, I said he should be German, and I'm still thinking on it. But I guess the Independents (or Barbs) will continue to use the generic list, no? So have him in that list.

Or make him German, and put Oppenheimer on the American list. But please, please, don't talk about physics! ;) (I can agree to talk about history, because it's something everybody understands, but physics are only comprehensible for those who study physics, and I'm a laws student... I left sciences behind about 6 years ago, and even the relativity theory it's hard to understand for me).

Pottery:
Yes, it was a bit of tongue-in-cheek about E=mc², but there's an element of truth to it. (This is hard to get across sometimes in posts.) The really useful one everyone remembers is the relation between momentum and energy, as you said, but my professor was just talking about the single equation for rest energy. E=mc² really is overrated in the way the public thinks of it as "the" equation of science. F=ma would be much more appropriate given its historical impact.

fearuin:
I gather that you don't like physics. :D I know how you feel--I've seen it lots of times. I think I first realized I was in trouble when my first physics test was over and I thought it was fun. :crazyeye: Actually, it's not relativity that's bad, once you get used to it, but quantum mechanics. (What do you mean the particle goes through both slits at once?!!)

Oppenheimer is already on the American list!
I don't think it would suit Einstein to be with the independents, as it doesn't really fit the way Rhye has it worked out right now. Do Independents even get great people in his scenario?

kairob:
Yes, this is exactly what I thought of last night after I left the forum, as the game supposedly keeps a list of each person born to prevent them from appearing twice. But I don't know if this would work the way I have it set up, and besides it sets a bad precedent to start listing names twice. Then everybody would complain and we'd have to duplicate many names.


My take is to just leave the lists as they are, and if certain names are really bothersome to people, it is very simple to switch them around in notepad. I hate to take this position, but it seems to be the only viable one.

It really irks me that Firaxis used the name Praetorian rather than Legionary, for example, but I changed it so long ago that I don't even notice anymore. We have to use some kind of standardized list, and we just can't debate every name. So if a certain name really seems ridiculous to someone, I sympathize and all I can say is just change it when you download the new mod. You'll never notice again.

Let's remember why these lists were made in the first place: because we all agreed it was ridiculous to see famous people being born in places completely out of touch with history, like the infamous "Isaac Newton in Shanghai" scenario. (I've never gotten a PM or a post that says, "Please bring back the old way. I like to see Shakespeare born in Japan!") So I understand people wanting to ensure accuracy and not make the same mistake twice, but even at worst it makes sense for Einstein to be American and for Columbus to be Spanish than it does for them to be, say, Russian or Malinese. It really shouldn't be controversial, but if it's going to cause lots of people to get upset (something I want to avoid) then maybe it would be best not to have it in Rhye's and Fall of Civilization after all. I'm beginning to wonder if I should ask Rhye to leave it out.

Can I just ask, where do you change unit names? I want legionaries too :P

There's actually a really easy way to do it without having to change the actual unit name. Just open assets\xml\text\CIV4GameTextInfos_Objects, find TXT_KEY_UNIT_ROME_PRAETORIAN, and replace the translations of "Praetorian" with "Legionary". That's all there is to it.

nice, thanks :)

fearuin:
I gather that you don't like physics. :D I know how you feel--I've seen it lots of times. I think I first realized I was in trouble when my first physics test was over and I thought it was fun. :crazyeye: Actually, it's not relativity that's bad, once you get used to it, but quantum mechanics. (What do you mean the particle goes through both slits at once?!!)


Well, I like science-fiction movies and books :scan: . But part of the fun it's not understanding everything;) . In fact, I have checked that many physics students do hate sci-fi because it reminds them to their classes.

About Oppenheimer, sorry, I didn't see him. My fault!

Pottery:
F=ma would be much more appropriate given its historical impact.

This, too, is misleading IMHO. Physics is rarely more interesting than the mathematics behind it. Einstein would have disagreed with that, but that's my experience. Therefore both equations E=mc² and F=ma are both boring linear equations. F=m*dr/dt² or F=dp/dt ar much more interseting forms of the same formula, because differential equations are perhaps the most intruguing inclusion. Think of all this "nature works the same way in many different fields" rubbish. You just use the same differntial equation(s) as an approximation for different systems.

Anyway, he had to flee Germany because of the Nazis' rise to power, and well, it just doesn't seem quite right to have him in there because of it. So many others, like Heisenberg, stayed behind.

Then I guess Thaomas Mann and Lion Feuchtwanger, for instance, are both on the American list, too. Heinrich Heine and Joseph Roth on the French list. Alkibiades on the Persian one.:)
The people who fled Nazi Germany (or chose not to return like Einstein or Mann) had no (non-suicidal) option to return to Germany for years. And once the Nazi Regime had fallen, they usually were too old. It's great that these people found new homes and were able to keep up their productivity, as so many failed to achieve both, but we should not forget that they were forced out. :mischief:

I really don't care at all, I just don't like poor reasoning. Giving them numbers would be neat. "1 was born Berlin." sounds better than Rommel leading knights or Heissenberg discovering the printing press or Frank Kafka being born.:crazyeye: :lol: :p

YAWN... From the back of the class... (I majored in political science...) :mischief:

I really don't care at all, I just don't like poor reasoning. Giving them numbers would be neat. "1 was born Berlin." sounds better than Rommel leading knights or Heissenberg discovering the printing press or Frank Kafka being born.

Exactly... I just read through these four pages and I can't seem to figure out what the big deal is... I'm content with simply "A great prophet has been born in..." "A great General has been born in..." It just seems to me like it's a lot of effort to include the names of Arabic Scientists and Babylonian Prophets that, after a few games, aren't going to matter much...

Eh, maybe I'm wrong, as this would probably add to the "realism" of the mod, since I totally agree that having Patton leading the German army is just plain weird... But I don't see me being that upset if Rhye just removes the names altogether... Hasn't this already happened? I don't get the GP messages anymore anyway, just the sound and the icon...

You know, if anything, maybe the Great Generals could use a name upgrade... I forgot that, when attached to a unit, you do see the name an awful lot... But I still think that scientists, prophets, and such aren't that big of a deal... They only hang around for a turn or so...

This, too, is misleading IMHO. Physics is rarely more interesting than the mathematics behind it. Einstein would have disagreed with that, but that's my experience.

Consider the problem of a particle trapped in a finite square well potential whose length is 2a. If we treat the particle as wave and apply the time-independent Schrodinger wave equation, then we require the solution to satisfy d²u(x)/dx² + 2m/hbar² *E*u(x)=0. Because this is a wave, we can also calculate the reflection and transmission coefficients, the latter of which comes out to (if I can type this correctly) T = 4Kq exp(-2iKa) / ( (q² + k²)*(exp(-i2qa)-exp(i2qa)) + kq*(exp(-2qa)+exp(i2qa)) for this particular problem, where i is the imaginary number sqrt(-1), k is the wave vector, q² = 2m(V - E)/hbar² and V and E are the potential and energy, respectively. (I have left out many steps here because this is already long enough.)

This is not a very interesting mathematical solution (just use basic calculus and algebra to arrive at the answer), but it is a PROFOUND physical one. The transmission is non-zero, so there is a probability for the particle to be in places where it shouldn't be classically. This is equivalent to saying that I can walk through a wall. (This is the classic tunneling scenario.)

YAWN... From the back of the class... (I majored in political science...)
A friend of mine once told me a joke: When something new is discovered, the physicist asks, "What can it do?"; the engineer asks, "What can we build to harness it?"; and the philosopher asks, "Do you want fries with that?" Does this also apply to political science? :D

Then I guess Thaomas Mann and Lion Feuchtwanger, for instance, are both on the American list, too. Heinrich Heine and Joseph Roth on the French list. Alkibiades on the Persian one.:)
I think the major difference between Einstein and these guys is that most people have actually heard of him. My point was that it is more appropriate for Albert to be American than German; if you're going to base it on his relativity theories then maybe Switzerland would be better, but that's not really an option. And as for Alcibiades :rolleyes: , he was the one who convinced the Athenians to invade Sicily during the Peloponnesian War, which turned into an absolute disaster and probably handed the victory to Sparta. (Afterwards, he defected to the Spartans and was instrumental in their establishment of a garrison in Attica.) So I'd say he's a pretty important Greek figure, wouldn't you?

I really don't care at all, I just don't like poor reasoning. Giving them numbers would be neat.
I don't like poor reasoning either. That's why I'm a physicist. :) BTW, your suggestion to quantize great people is interesting...

Here's a better idea: why don't we get rid of all city names, leader names, great people names, unit names, tech names, no-names, and every name in between, and then you can just play as "#17" with cities named 1, 2, 3... and you can declare war on civ "32" and take resources A, B and C away from them. :rolleyes: J/K Oh yeah, and Montezuma will occasionally pop up demanding something or his "A's" will invade you.

The fact that Rhye took such pains to script real-life city names based on their historical locations suggests to me that realism is important to him, and having civ-specific great people is precisely the same kind of thing. You don't like realism and historicity in Civ 4, fine; but this mod is probably not for you, then.

Well, I like science-fiction movies and books :scan: . But part of the fun it's not understanding everything;) . In fact, I have checked that many physics students do hate sci-fi because it reminds them to their classes.
That's funny, most of the people I've talked to like sci-fi for this very reason! It gets them interested in their subjects. And those who don't like it usually don't because sci-fi these days is often written by people who have no scientific literacy, and they can spot the errors.

there is a probability for the particle to be in places where it shouldn't be classically. This is equivalent to saying that I can walk through a wall.

I would not quite put it that way. What you have described is the Schrodinger equation for a particle inside a finite square well. Wave functions satisfying that equation go beyond the edges of the well. What is the physical meaning of this? It means that there is some small probability of finding the particle in a region where classic kinetic energy would be negative. However, if you tried to localize the particle within that region, your measurement of position would come with an uncertainty in the measurement of momentum, which would be just big enough to prevent you from measuring a negative energy (this follows from the uncertainty principle).

Now, this is not quite the same as saying that you can walk through a wall! It’s true that popular science books sometimes describe the phenomenon that way, but physics students should know better ;) Having said that, I agree that the mathematical behaviour of the wave function you have described has important physical consequences to the theory of barrier penetration.

But the fact remains that a particle under such conditions can in fact tunnel into regions that are classically forbidden, which is effectively like passing through a wall. Without getting into the negative energy issue, it's still a matter of being able to wind up in another region without having to gain the prerequisite energy. Walking through it "like it's not even there" is the point behind the comparison. You can't of course walk through a wall, though QM does give a small (very, very small) probability for this.

When you say you'd simply find it in a region where the classic KE is negative, that oversimplifies things. For one, it makes it sound like it's no big deal when it actually is. Again, the whole point is that a particle can be outside "the box" without overcoming the barriers! (The violation allowed by the uncertainty principle is equal to the negative kinetic energy required.) Imagine a prisoner who suddenly found himself outside the jail bars.

Tunneling has major applications in electronics, and it's more than just interesting mathematics, which is what I was really driving at. And as for popular books describing it this way, I should say that I have never read any that said that, but I have heard Ph.D. physicists describe it this way in physics classes to young physicists, my own prof. included. Imprecise? Sure. But there's a reason behind it. The potential barrier to a particle is what a wall would be to a human.

Perhaps a more humorous way (and more relevant for our purposes here!) to put it would be thus: Civ 4 and Warlords run at about, what, $40-50 for both these days? In other words, it takes so much money to buy Civ 4. If I don't have enough, I wouldn't expect to see Civ 4 on my computer any time soon. But this is sort of like suddenly finding it on my desk without having enough money to buy it! (Okay, this is really ridiculous, but you see my point.)

Anyway, enough with physics. We've probably already scared fearuin off for good. What happened to the real issue (so many posts ago), which was a compilation of names for Babylon?

I think the major difference between Einstein and these guys is that most people have actually heard of him. My point was that it is more appropriate for Albert to be American than German; if you're going to base it on his relativity theories then maybe Switzerland would be better, but that's not really an option. And as for Alcibiades :rolleyes: , he was the one who convinced the Athenians to invade Sicily during the Peloponnesian War, which turned into an absolute disaster and probably handed the victory to Sparta. (Afterwards, he defected to the Spartans and was instrumental in their establishment of a garrison in Attica.) So I'd say he's a pretty important Greek figure, wouldn't you?

You don't know Thomas Mann? That's a big deficit! Trust me, he is really known. Same goes with Heinrich Heine, both are well known German "authors". I really can advise you to go read a book of them sometimes soon. Joseph Roth is another example, but he isn't that famous though. I must admit I do not know Lion Feuchtwanger. ;) Alcibiades on the other hand is another thing. In German he is written with k, in English with c, in Greek we have a whole other transliteration, so no need to correct the k with the c, that's just pedantery (on a international forum!).

mfG mick

My point was that Alcibiades was forced into Persian exile twice, worked for the Persians and was murdered by his own people. Therefore he has as much reason to be Persian as Einstein has to be American if exile (or being forced out of one's home) is the crucial factor. ;)

Alcibiades is a different transliteration than Alkibiades but at least it has the same sound - that cannot be said of Frank/Franz. (I wonder if anyone at Firaxis has ever read one of Kafka's works.:rolleyes:)

Great people have their history, too. And there is more to them than their nationality. And you will almost never ever have them born into a game world that's similar to the one they experienced and that shaped them. Since I know the curriculum vitae of some, adding civ-specific great people names is great for flavour but not for realism or historicity AT ALL in my eyes.

About physics and math: differential equations have always rather simple but illustrative solutions if you choose appropriate intitial or boundary values. But these simple examples are usually not relevant for practical use. So if you understand the math you understand the physics usually rather fast. E.g. QM or electrodynamics have rather simple concepts behind it. Simple in the way that you can explain the basic concepts behind it to almost everyone. The math is what leads to new results. And it is was makes QM unintuitive. We humans have little intuation for complex boundary value problems. Cooper pairs were first predicted by the formulae and only later measured or take Einstein's special theory of relativity as an example of classical physics.

About i: i²=-1.
i=sqrt(-1) => i²=sqrt(-1)*sqrt(-1)=sqrt((-1)*(-1))=sqrt(1)=1:crazyeye: :lol: :p
That's why mathematicians don't like the "slang" of physicists or engineers.;)

Why didn't you use sin/cos in your solution as it saves some tipping? (2cosx=exp(-ix)+exp(ix); 2isinx=exp(-ix)-exp(ix))

The reason why I've included Joseph Roth is that he wrote "Radetzkymarsch", one of the best novels on the late Habsburg Monarchy/Austo-Hungarian Empire and was a brilliant journalist, who wrote some of the best articles against the Nazis before they rose to power. He died a rather tragic death in Paris. Lion Feuchtwanger was one of the most succesful German writers of his time, supporter of the early Bert Brecht, best-known for his historical novels like Jud Süß or his Josephus Trilogy. He, too, never returned to Germany after 1933 and died in California.
@mitsho: If you like German literature of this era, read at least one of Feuchtwanger's novels.;)

About Babylonia: I hope there are still some names to add since the current lists I've seen are too short for 5000 years worth of playing.:cry:

When you say you'd simply find it in a region where the classic KE is negative, that oversimplifies things. ... Imagine a prisoner who suddenly found himself outside the jail bars ... I have heard Ph.D. physicists describe it this way in physics classes to young physicists, my own prof. included.

What oversimplifies - or, rather, distorts - the phenomenon is claiming that the solution to the quantum problem is “equivalent to people walking through walls” or to “prisoners being teleported out of their jails”. Once again, you professor probably wasn’t serious when he said that and you have taken him too literally. He must have used the prisoner analogy only as a way to dramatise the quantum effect and render it memorable to students. By the way, barrier penetration is by no means unique to Quantum Mechanics. Consider for example transmission of light across an optical barrier, or even transmission of water waves in a ripple tank. Yet I’ve never heard anybody claiming that these phenomena are “equivalent” to people walking through walls!

I think everybody's taking what I say way too seriously and too literally!
About Alcibiades, the whole spelling thing was a joke! (That's why we have translations in TXT_KEY_. On the other thread people were arguing about how to spell Joan of Arc. Sheesh!)

And as far as QM and tunneling goes, this is the last I want to say about it: the transmission coefficient is non-zero, which is like being able to pass through a "wall", and that's the point behind what I was saying. All this controversy is over the one word "equivalent", so I now see it was bad to use that phrase--"similar" or "like" would have been better. Hyperboles have no place in internet forums (fora).

Yes, light passing thru optical barriers is another good illustration of this, for instance the two-prism tunneling effect observed by Newton in the case of total internal reflection. What makes this particular instance strange is that we are talking about electrons and whatnot, which are classically thought to be hard particles, little "billiard balls". The comparisons are imperfect but are meant to demonstrate something actually occurs, which according to all of our common perceptions about reality, just can't happen. That's the real novelty behind this: that QM predicts something that classical mechanics does not, and the one we observe is the QM one, which is evidence that it is the more fundamental theory. I trust this is what you were also thinking?

About sqrt(-1), yeah, it never ceases to amaze me how physicists, engineers and mathematicians can't get together on anything. :) Some use i, some use j, and of course math people reverse the angles in spherical coordinates (or maybe physicists do, dependening on your frame of reference ;)). I didn't use sines and cosines here simply because I prefer to use exponentials, but either works.

I'm not familiar with Joseph Roth and the others, but his story sounds very interesting. I can see why you would want him in. As for Frank/Franz, I got his name and spelling from another source (don't remember where) and that's the way it was. If it needs to be changed, that's fine.

I just have to disagree with Wilhem II, when you say adding civ-specific people doesn't add to realism. Again, it is much more realistic to me to have Einstein "born" in America than for him to be "born" in Zululand. Is that what this is really all about, the word "born"? Because it's silly in and of itself anyway; in the late game you can have somebody born in 1959 and use them on the same turn, before he/she is one year old! I've heard of child prodigies, but this is ridiculous.

(Just googled Albert Einstein to look up something. Now I see why you're understandably upset over this. He was born in Ulm!)

I think I know a way to solve all this: take a look at Pottery's thread about changing America's unique power. Should fix everything. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208586
:D

Can we please get back to suggestions for Babylon's names? The other civs already have enough, and we can change around one or two names later. Someone said something about using Abbasid names plus ancients, which I think is good because I'm having trouble finding decent ancient ones. Would it also be good to use modern Iraqi names, considering that Babylon is usually still in the game by that point?

About Einstein: All I ever wanted to know is what his importnace for America (or the importance of his American years) was in relation to his importance for Germany (or the importance of his years in Germany). Einstein shares the fate of many classics: everybody knows their names, almost noone their biography, way of thinking or works. If he inspired a whole generation of US physics students, fine. If his work was important for Princeton, fine. Both can be seen as founding an Academy in civ4 terms. But that he should not be German, because he was exiled as some people (not you) pointed out is in my eyes not enough. And as I've tried to convey: people who were exiled should not necessarily change their nationality. I'm not pariotic about him: I know well enough that the city he was born (Ulm) was as important to him like Augsburg was to Brecht. ("The best thing about Augsburg is the train to Munich.") On a side note: I only study in Ulm and am strongly against the idea the president of my university has: to rename Ulm University to Abert Einstein University, Ulm. Why? See above and half the students study medicine, only a minority physics and I'm against idolizing people.

About Pottery's idea: nice, but it doesn't really fit. Einstein, Mann and the other celebrities didn't just idle in their homecountry before they "brain-drained" to America. What would be better is that totalitarian civics (theocracy, police state, nationhood) should have the risk that Great people (even settled down ones) desert or Acedemies are closed down. Think of the Platonic Acedemy closed by a Byzantine emperor, or the confucian academies destroyed by the Yellow Emperor, the great purges of Stalin, Mao, the Nazis, etc.

I have no problem with "XY is born in Z". "XY has shown his brilliance" or something like this would be better and more accurate. The government just comes aware of some promising new genius. Just think of Napoleon commanding artillery at first. My problem was more that Mozart would not be the composer he was had he been born a century earlier or later. Having Rommel command German knights is maybe better than Zulu spearmen, but it's still not the real or historical Rommel. It's more a matter of flavour for me than realism. We're only using their names we do not simulate them or their lives. In my eyes great people are deeply rooted into the time and environment they lived in and that is what we take away when we just use their names whenever "their number comes up". But I guess, it's just a matter of taste and I really appreciate the effort you put into your work.

sqrt(-1) was just meant as an insider joke. It was used as a caveat to teach us that preciseness has it advantages and I thought you were probaby shown the same trick by your math prof/tutor. I study electronics and I shared an communications technology lecture with one of my friends who studies math. And he was not really amused about the way one tutor tried to teach ergodic theory etc to us.

I think we should use the Iraqi names, too, as we also use Italian names for Romes, e.g. Most names of the geniuses of the Ancient era are lost to history anyway.

Octavius, I have already gathered the names for Babylon, they are coded, but the only thing remaining is compiling them with the other names. If only I could find the time to do that :undecide:.

Wihelm:
After reading your post, I have to say that I pretty much agree with you. Chugginator and I have talked about making age-specific as well as civ-specific mods, as it seems strange (like you said) for Rommel to be leading knights or for Einstein to be born in 900 BC. Of course, doing this would create enormous difficulties, but you make a good point.

I didn't know about the university of Ulm being renamed to Albert Einstein university; that does seem a bit odd considering most people are medical students. It sounds like just an effort to generate publicity more than anything.

I really like your idea about police state and civics triggering population loss. That actually sounds like a good thing to implement (maybe not with great people, but just general population). Just like in civ 3 when you switched to fascism, your population would decrease. Another good line from Civ 3, as you suggested: "Our recent breakthrough in technology has proven the brilliance of a great scientific leader, $GREAT_LEADER0!"

Prestidigitator:
How exactly have you coded Babylon's names? Have you implemented an entirely new system, or just used my existing mod? If it's the latter then I think can help with the compiling process; if you made a new system I would very much like to see it--perhaps it's simpler than the XML coding I use now.

Octavius,
Perhaps it sounded a bit too fancy :p, what I meant is that I have created the code 'tags' for the xml:
ie:

<Greatperson>UNIT_GREAT_PERSON_NEBUCHADNEZZAR</Greatperson>
English
<Nebuchadnezzar>

etc..

your same system really, although I'm not quite sure about whether or not you have included unique names for the 'Warlord' unit :undecide: have you?

Yes, I have made UU's for Warlords, too. But there is currently a bug in the system such that Warlord names are not being used correctly. See my page for details. I have talked with several people, including Mexico, who developed the SDK mod that should fix this, but it doesn't work for some reason and no one knows how to fix it. Mexico's been pretty busy lately so he hasn't had time to look at it in detail yet.

Prestidigitator:
Forget about my previous post--it is now out of date. Mexico has since fixed the great general bug, so everything is now civ-specific, including the warlords. I have posted the fix on the other thread. :D

So since development is over can somebody turn this into a modcomp? I think it's a great idea and Gaius Octavius has put a lot of work into it, and I'd be delighted to install it. If only there were a download/I knew how!

does it come with a physics lecture?

I'd hope to have the physics lecture skippable ;). So, where we can download it? Was it tested with RFC?

does it come with a physics lecture?
:lol: No, no physics necessary... Thank God! (And I hope no more emigration controversy. ;))

I haven't tested this with RFC yet, but from what I can tell from the older version I have (Nov. 2006), it looks like all that is necessary is to merge the two or three XML files that are in my great people mod with RFC, and implement Mexico's new SDK code in Rhye's CvGameCoreDLL.dll. Beyond that, there shouldn't be any difficulty at all.

One note: when I did my civ-specific mod I left out most of the translation tags (I got lazy after a while), and just put the names directly in Civ4UnitInfos.xml, so we'll have to use Prestidigitator's new tags in order to translate them from English. I don't know if RFC has already been translated, but that's obviously worth thinking about for those who aren't English-speakers.

The GG fix and mod can both be downloaded from here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=199344

You can also get Mexico's full uncompiled SDK work here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=189123

I haven't tested this with RFC yet, but from what I can tell from the older version I have (Nov. 2006), it looks like all that is necessary is to merge the two or three XML files that are in my great people mod with RFC, and implement Mexico's new SDK code in Rhye's CvGameCoreDLL.dll. Beyond that, there shouldn't be any difficulty at all.

So, can anyone follow this up with an attempt to merge the mods? I'd gladly try, but I'm sure I'd destroy both mods in the process.

I've never compiled SDK before, but I can merge the XML files.

you guys want a laugh? go to the 13th page of RFC and go to the GP people one. Kinda funny compared to this one.

Mowque: Where exactly is this? I'm not sure I know what you mean...


I've had a request from Grave to compile names for great doctors and statesmen, which are included in his new mod. This got me thinking, would it be a good idea to use those mods in RFC also? Not sure if this has already been proposed before, but it was just a thought.

here- http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=176891

Wow, propheting. :lol:

Yeah, I've seen this before. It was one of the very first posts I looked up back in July of '06 before I set out to make this mod.
It was one of the threads I was referring to when I said:
I’ve also seen other people complain about this in different threads, but I have yet to find anyone who has actually done much about it.

But I never really thought that post #7 would happen--how could it? :lol: Very funny.

If you want a list of great Vikings, I'm ready to do that :D

I've had a request from Grave to compile names for great doctors and statesmen, which are included in his new mod. This got me thinking, would it be a good idea to use those mods in RFC also? Not sure if this has already been proposed before, but it was just a thought.

Vishaing is probably the one to ask. He's experimenting with lots of mod components in RFC Expanded.

I've got a book with around 500 British GPs in it :p

So is this adaptation for RFC dead or what? I really would like to see CSGP implemented in as many places as possible -- maybe it will convince Firaxis to include it in future Civs.

what ever happend to this little project????

Love to have seen this in RFC

I think after the Einstein controversy, nobody wanted it in. :D
Ironically, the debate has now resurfaced on my original thread... :crazyeye:

I'm still willing to adapt it for BtS if Rhye wants to put it in. I have all but the HRE and Khmer names done.

Oh, and yes I might relent and make Einstein a German if that's still causing problems... :mischief: But I suppose Rhye can reorganize the names anyway as it's his mod.

I think after the Einstein controversy, nobody wanted it in. :D
Ironically, the debate has now resurfaced on my original thread... :crazyeye:

I'm still willing to adapt it for BtS if Rhye wants to put it in. I have all but the HRE and Khmer names done.

There is no HRE in RFC... :goodjob:

Well, then that makes it simpler. :D

I would like to see this included in the mod. It adds much more authenticity when playing, when you get a civ specific GP.

Could it be added as an optional mod component.

Yeah, I'm tired to see Plato borning in Tokyo... :crazyeye:

It's too late to do it for the official BTS release; however, I can do it for a patch after it comes out. The mod only involves XML changes and one small SDK tweak, but someone will have to compile it as I currently don't have the program.

It's too late to do it for the official BTS release; however, I can do it for a patch after it comes out. The mod only involves XML changes and one small SDK tweak, but someone will have to compile it as I currently don't have the program.

Vishaing. :) :)

Please add this as a mod component once BTS is released.

i agree
(10 chars)

Rhye hasn't responded yet, this could mean that it's already in.

or that he doesn't want another project... has anyone asked him point-blank?

At this point, I don't expect Rhye to include it in the official BtS release. It's just too close. However, once the game actually comes out I can set up a mini-patch downloadable from here that you can use.

At this point, I don't expect Rhye to include it in the official BtS release. It's just too close. However, once the game actually comes out I can set up a mini-patch downloadable from here that you can use.

That would be great. Thanks.:goodjob:

I am also trying to convert the existing GP mod to Python, rather than XML, so as to make everything much cleaner. This may mean the SDK modification would no longer be necessary.

Okay, I have completed the preliminary Python version of this modcomp, using TheLopez's No Name Renamer mod as a base. This means you don't need 120 extra UU's for each Civ's great people. :D

The only problem is that it currently does not display the unique name in the event log, so you will get a message saying "Great Scientist has been born in Berlin!" instead of "Albert Einstein has been born..." for example. However, you still see the actual name of the person when you look at the unit.

If anybody knows how to change this, I'd be much obliged. :)

The first BtS version of this mod is out. I would appreciate testing before I try to convert it to RFC.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=5697920#post5697920

The first BtS version of this mod is out. I would appreciate testing before I try to convert it to RFC.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=5697920#post5697920

Tch, some of us modded the game weeks ago but are waiting for the US street date =P.

EDIT: When are you going to incorporate this? Whenever you do, I would love a generic template so we can incorporate it into RFC Europe.

Tch, some of us modded the game weeks ago but are waiting for the US street date =P.

Yes, but as with the scientific community, who published first? ;) :D


EDIT: When are you going to incorporate this? Whenever you do, I would love a generic template so we can incorporate it into RFC Europe.

I could have the basic framework for you tomorrow if I knew how to fix a small issue in the Python renaming system I have.

(See posts 39 and 40.)
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=224038

I really like the sound of this modcomp... can it be resurrected?