This is something I was trying hard to redo in Roanoke. The idea of culture expanding your borders on a hostile planet makes little sense. So what is the solution? A different term using that mechanic? At the very least it needs to be slowed down considerably. I thought we had done a good job in that mod by having less available tiles available at founding the city, a true cross of only 4 extra tiles. Long term plans were to have the Formers work unavailable tiles in a new way so that they now were within your borders. Sort of like claiming them from the wild instead of having them automatically enter your city range via a magical cultural explosion.

Sorry to ramble, but it's early. Somewhere in there is what I was trying to say... Next up is why we need less workable tiles, but that's a new thread.

This is something I was trying hard to redo in Roanoke. The idea of culture expanding your borders on a hostile planet makes little sense. So what is the solution? A different term using that mechanic? At the very least it needs to be slowed down considerably. I thought we had done a good job in that mod by having less available tiles available at founding the city, a true cross of only 4 extra tiles. Long term plans were to have the Formers work unavailable tiles in a new way so that they now were within your borders. Sort of like claiming them from the wild instead of having them automatically enter your city range via a magical cultural explosion.

Sorry to ramble, but it's early. Somewhere in there is what I was trying to say... Next up is why we need less workable tiles, but that's a new thread.

That's a neat idea. I almost relate it to the idea of "power" and some futuristic form of conduction (wireless power). A former could place a "energy retransmitter", device that receives energy through conduction from the nearest base, then retransmits it to the surrounding area. Thus, any plots under "culture" would be plots on the "energy grid."

This is more an idea of how to rationalize what culture is that what it's gameplay purposes are, however.

I love the idea of culture = energy grid!
Then it would make sense to convert energy to culture with the culture slider.

Cool. So how do we (the royal WE) make this work?

Cool. So how do we (the royal WE) make this work?

If you mean from a code-perspective, it's not too bad. Each plot has a culture amount that keeps track of how much culture is on it. Every turn, each city adds some points to the surrounding plot. At least it works something like that. Thus, it's not too hard to have, say, a former build an improvement that introduces "culture" to that plot. It can be done in python if necessary (but disabling how culture naturally works would be shredding a bunch of lines in the SDK).

If you're talking about how we go about making it work gameplay-wise (what's the advantage to having a wide energy-grid, for example) I would assume you would need to upgrade your cities to allow for a larger induction area to be able to set up in the grid (or, in the case of wired power and short-range induction eminating from a power source located within the actual "energy grid" tile, a powerful enough upgrade in the city to handle multiple tiles).

But, why would a player want to go through the effort? My worry with terraformers "creating" culture is the need for micromanagement. With a smaller amount of EG (Energy Grid) surrounding a city, we're looking at less area being taken up. This can have it's ups and downs:

Positive: Lots more room to perhaps allow for wide-scale battles. Satellites (oh yes, I have plenty of plans for satellites) or unit improvements can act as ways of being able to see farther than the typical one-terrain limit, and with proper abilities battles can become more tactically driven than move guys up, surround a base, barrage with artillery, rinse repeat.

Negative: If bases are too easy to make, you'll have ICS. If they're too hard to make, larger maps will have Faction borders too far away from each other ( as players will build fewer bases) for it really to be fun. Wars will become less likely because there really aren't territorial conflicts. The only reasoning for wars is to perhaps secure a resource, unless you're so far in the lead that dragging your units across large, neutral territory is feasible.

Just to give another possible alternative, culture could be renamed to the more modern-sounding memes (ie ideas), and spending energy on memes would be spreading resources on propaganda on the datalinks etc. That would explain how culture would make people happy, but unfortunately not how culture increases the workable tiles.

Just to give another possible alternative, culture could be renamed to the more modern-sounding memes (ie ideas), and spending energy on memes would be spreading resources on propaganda on the datalinks etc. That would explain how culture would make people happy, but unfortunately not how culture increases the workable tiles.

Memes could also be the replacement for religion as well. Although I kinda like the idea of using the religion code for viruses :P

If a problem like the "what would culture be" runs into a problem such as "why would the energy grid make people happy", remember we can always remove the fact that cuture makes people happy.

Memes could also be the replacement for religion as well. Although I kinda like the idea of using the religion code for viruses :P

Well some people call religion a memetic virus.

If a problem like the "what would culture be" runs into a problem such as "why would the energy grid make people happy", remember we can always remove the fact that cuture makes people happy.

True. Though as far as I know there are two issues with culture that cannot easily be removed:
1) There needs to be some use for culture beyond the first culture expansion (if that is used). Otherwise it would be a lame concept.
2) How to explain tiles switching control due to culture?

Well some people call religion a memetic virus.



True. Though as far as I know there are two issues with culture that cannot easily be removed:
1) There needs to be some use for culture beyond the first culture expansion (if that is used). Otherwise it would be a lame concept.
2) How to explain tiles switching control due to culture?


Well, what I was getting at was that if culture switching is a problem, we can remove culture switching.

We can also eliminate any possible way to culture bomb, unless we wanted to have an Energy Grid bomb to steal a faction's grid borders. :evil:

Couldn't the concepts of "memes" and "psych" go together?

I am thinking in the line of "cultural influence" replaced with "psych influence". Faction government spend resources on keeping a certain level of loyalty or "safety" (psych level) among the workers and military.

This could be explained in different ways, for example a meme-grid of sorts that requires some kind of maintenance or upkeep (resources). When a faction loses control of a tile it simply means that some other faction has a more efficient meme-grid. The losing faction needs to abandon the tile because of an insufficent "psych level" eventually resulting in loss of loyalty and safety among the workers. The tile simply could not be maintained.

---

I like the Civ4 concept of cultural borders. Its fun.

Or theoretically we could include both culture and energy. Maybe complex, but i have a vision of it.
Your cultural borders would work much like they do now. Showing the areas that your civilization has "tamed". It would give you vision, and also give homeland type bonuses.
Then you would also have an energy grid (graphic: a series of power lines emanating from the city) which starts with just a one radius around the city, and hten can be expanded with various power generators. Only in the late game would the energy grid get very large. A tile would have to be in the energy grid in order to be worked. Units in the energy grid would also get a heal and morale bonus.

I am thinking in the line of "cultural influence" replaced with "psych influence". Faction government spend resources on keeping a certain level of loyalty or "safety" (psych level) among the workers and military.

This could be explained in different ways, for example a meme-grid of sorts that requires some kind of maintenance or upkeep (resources). When a faction loses control of a tile it simply means that some other faction has a more efficient meme-grid. The losing faction needs to abandon the tile because of an insufficent "psych level" eventually resulting in loss of loyalty and safety among the workers. The tile simply could not be maintained.

Or more or less the same, how about considering it extending it your 'psi control' over the area if your borders expand, since I assume psi is a way to increase your psych? And as you say, if the workers feel safe against mind worm psi, they'll be willing to work the tiles.

This "culture" issue is really confusing me.

My problem is that I like the idea of "culture" as a potential "happiness" resource and a means of expanding borders. You can spend gold (the slider) to increase your culture production and happiness.

In SMAC/X this is somewhat similar to "psych"--a concept that I like very much.

Now, culture does not make sense in Planetfall and I struggle to make psych fit any kind of "cultural border" concept. Energy Grid is good. Meme is good. Perhaps some combination or abstraction brings the concepts together.

I am currently inclined to use "Energy Grid" as culture (units repair faster when on the grid, supply lines and sense of safety and loyalty can be maintained when workers "know" they are "in contact" with the grid). Memes could be included as a reasoning behind the complex structure and function of the grid. I really don't know...

Any help?

This "culture" issue is really confusing me.

My problem is that I like the idea of "culture" as a potential "happiness" resource and a means of expanding borders. You can spend gold (the slider) to increase your culture production and happiness.

In SMAC/X this is somewhat similar to "psych"--a concept that I like very much.

Now, culture does not make sense in Planetfall and I struggle to make psych fit any kind of "cultural border" concept. Energy Grid is good. Meme is good. Perhaps some combination or abstraction brings the concepts together.

I am currently inclined to use "Energy Grid" as culture (units repair faster when on the grid, supply lines and sense of safety and loyalty can be maintained when workers "know" they are "in contact" with the grid). Memes could be included as a reasoning behind the complex structure and function of the grid. I really don't know...

Any help?

It really is a pickle :P

I'm inclined to use Energy Grid, but the one idea that still haunts me is what happens when energy grids start to overlap. In Civ4, one grid "takes over" the other. Perhaps each Faction has their own style of energy that, along with providing their "wireless power" to that plot, will cause interference so that the other Factions power fails.

Or, if two Factions have very strong induction ("wireless power") going to that plot (say, no one Faction has over 80% of the power), then they cancel out, and no one gets them.

Edit:
The easy way to do this would be to make "owning" a plot a matter of putting a "retransmitter" improvement (or feature) onto any plot to claim it as "yours", as was at one point discussed. I think that this idea is pretty micro-intensive, however.

I need to go back and figure out what Memes are...

Energy Grid and culture seem like a good fit for now. I'm not sure how to rationalize losing culture to another civ's city, but I suppose energy fluctuations or emmigration or something could explain it. I'd like to see it slowed down or make each expansion less than the current default numbers.

About culture and border expansion...A long time ago I wanted this to be accomplished via a worker/Former improvement. Basically you only gained new tiles from a worker "working" them. After X number of uninterrupted turns your boundary encompassed the new spot. There would be rules about needing adjacent tiles in order to work a tile, but it would be revolutionary.

About culture and border expansion...A long time ago I wanted this to be accomplished via a worker/Former improvement. Basically you only gained new tiles from a worker "working" them. After X number of uninterrupted turns your boundary encompassed the new spot. There would be rules about needing adjacent tiles in order to work a tile, but it would be revolutionary.

As posted in my edit, I think that this would cause a ton of work. There are some people that already dislike the idea of workers on automated. I'm one of those people (at least, until much, much later in the game). Having the workers also be your primary culture-spreading units would just seem to me like more work.

I'm all for trying the idea out, but those are just my thoughts.

I agree with Gerikes on the issue of "gain new tiles by working them"; mostly because I like the expanding borders of Civ4.

On the grid:

Early in the game, much land remains unsettled (unclaimed). Maybe this is because of no existing grid structure? And once a grid exists factions can dominate tiles (that is, taking control of that particular part of the grid) and shut off grid access to other factions.

I makes perfect sense to me that there is no "grid overlap". The grid structure remains the same, but only the dominant faction is allowed any kind of grid control.

I agree with Gerikes on the issue of "gain new tiles by working them"; mostly because I like the expanding borders of Civ4.

On the grid:

Early in the game, much land remains unsettled (unclaimed). Maybe this is because of no existing grid structure? And once a grid exists factions can dominate tiles (that is, taking control of that particular part of the grid) and shut off grid access to other factions.

I makes perfect sense to me that there is no "grid overlap". The grid structure remains the same, but only the dominant faction is allowed any kind of grid control.

I was under the idea of using some futuristic form of induction, so the "grid" is actually just the reach of the "wireless power", and creating buildings that work as upgrades to the main grid providor in your city allows you to expand your "Energy Grid".

However, the concept of grid infrastructure can work the same way. Rather than having the terraformer unit manually set up the infrastructure to supply that plot with power, it is automatically done for you by expanding borders. What wouldn't make sense is that you could put your military units on a plot and simply by the expanding borders policy have them be "kicked out". If one faction were to try to destroy my energy grid and replace it with their own, they're going to have to do it with guns, not an army of engineers (no offense to any engineers, of which I actually am theoretically one). IMO, There would have to be some way to "take over" the plot without actually destroying the base, otherwise you'll have an early game land-grab.

I'm still under the mindset that on a foreign planet, bases and cities would be where ALL citizens reside, and everything outside of the cities are either used for experimentation, production, and of course military purposes, almost reverse to how we have them here, simply because day-to-day living expenses for humans (you know, being able to breath and avoid native life) would be much lower in a base or city. Only those who can truly afford it (government-sponsored and -protected research projects and large industries) can actually use the terrain outside of a city.

I think my vision of "culture" in Planetfall does not differ much from the Civ4 model. At least not when compared to the suggestions and ideas in this thread. ;)

Do you want culture to spread? Do you want "cultural border wars" (aggressive culture) and "culture bombs"?

I don't mind normal culture if it spreads more slowly and less each spread. Frontier space colonies should not get huge cultural borders.

I re-read this thread to get an idea of what you could be interested in. So, here another idea on how to address "cultural territory" in the mod:

(Note: The game mechanics concerning "culture" (including infiltration and encryption) that I've been considering during the last few days have not been updated to reflect this alternative.)

When setting up an HQ (initial base and subsequent relocations) we are assuming that tiles near the HQ are part of this process. An Energy Grid is "activated" on the tiles in a 3 tile radius. The grid structure is some kind of "wireless power" and "psi/psych" emission originating from the HQ complex.

New bases function as additional grid structures connecting the "fat cross" tiles around the base to the grid.

Terraformers can construct Grid Towers on tiles in order to strengthen or expand the grid in a 3x3 or "fat cross" area.

Is this more in line with the feature we want?

Edit: woodelf, we could combine this approach with a very slow "cultural" expansion that would only make a difference late game.

:idea: If the idea of a Planet value at base level is accepted, how about for each net positive Planet you have, you get one extra culture/psych/whatever at that base? And the other way around, for each net negative Planet you have (in other words, if you're causing eco-damage) that base gets -1 culture/psych? The idea being that it's harder to control territory if you're hostile to Planet.

That sounds logical to me, but we're really going to have to balance the hell out of SE/civics to make it so +Planet isn't overpowered. I'm not complaining, just stating the obvious.

Yeah I'm just concentrating on thinking up cool effects for following a Centauri strategy because I'm assuming that's the "alternative" game strategy. Being Planet-unfriendly should of course have other good effects, most obvious being able to have a higher population and production.

I am thinking of having culture spread in plots in two steps. 1) Normal Civ4 culture accumulation and 2) facility derived culture levels and accumulation.

When founding a base it has culture level 1 (see image below), just like default Civ4. If the base generates any culture (i.e. from facilities or specialists) it can advance quickly to culture level 2 (the fat cross). The spread speed can be similar to default Civ4.

However, a base cannot normally reach culture levels beyond level 2! Culture continues to accumulate in plots included in level 2 (fat cross).

In order to advance to culture level 3 the base needs specific facilities. The HQ's palace is such a facility, it adds culture level 3. Still, the base generated culture does not affect the 3rd level--only the culture from the palace is accumulated in the 3rd level.

Non-HQ bases can construct culture facilities similar to palaces.

As technology progresses we can allow for level 4 and perhaps level 5 (or more) facilities, though this should be somewhat deep into the tech tree. Such facilities could act as part culture bomb (a fixed value added to plots) and part culture generators.

This is the passive spread. Terrain improvements can be used for active spread, i.e. a Grid Tower that spreads culture in a level 1 or level 2 radius--it could even work as a base in that it advances in culture levels.

In Planetfall culture is called "Energy Grid".

Does this make sense?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/73453/culturelevels.jpg

I am thinking of having culture spread in plots in two steps. 1) Normal Civ4 culture accumulation and 2) facility derived culture levels and accumulation.

When founding a base it has culture level 1 (see image below), just like default Civ4. If the base generates any culture (i.e. from facilities or specialists) it can advance quickly to culture level 2 (the fat cross). The spread speed can be similar to default Civ4.

However, a base cannot normally reach culture levels beyond level 2! Culture continues to accumulate in plots included in level 2 (fat cross).

In order to advance to culture level 3 the base needs specific facilities. The HQ's palace is such a facility, it adds culture level 3. Still, the base generated culture does not affect the 3rd level--only the culture from the palace is accumulated in the 3rd level.

Non-HQ bases can construct culture facilities similar to palaces.

As technology progresses we can allow for level 4 and perhaps level 5 (or more) facilities, though this should be somewhat deep into the tech tree. Such facilities could act as part culture bomb (a fixed value added to plots) and part culture generators.

This is the passive spread. Terrain improvements can be used for active spread, i.e. a Grid Tower that spreads culture in a level 1 or level 2 radius--it could even work as a base in that it advances in culture levels.

In Planetfall culture is called "Energy Grid".

Does this make sense?


One question:

Let's say you need 10 culture for level 1, 200 for 2, 1000 for 3.

If you hit level 2 with a city without any buildings to advance to three, do you continue gathering culture and just stop at 1000 and as soon as you build a required building move to level 3? Or do you stop at 200 and once you finish a required building you start your climb to lvl three? Or would there be a middle-of-the-road? Or would it just keep accumulating, even if you hit lvl five in accumulated points but you're stuck at three?

Also, I think earlier we had a few people mention that perhaps as well as slowing down cutlure, the first step might be a "thin cross" (just the four horizontal plots adjacent to the city), or something else that deviates from Civ4 to make capturing land a bit tougher. I liked the idea of having more "neutral" territory to work with in the beginning-mid game. Your idea would certainly provide that, but I think we could also look at making the cross a bit smaller.

Of course, that all takes into account what we'd like to do for improvements. If the first step is a "thin cross" and the second is a square, do we allow for improvements to be built in the newly acquired plots after obtaining a "fat cross"? We could always have improvements be allowed to be built on non-cultured squares, but I think that would seriously limit the point of having culture early on. And, it would just make sense that if culture is an "energy grid" that you would need energy to run your improvements.

One question:

Let's say you need 10 culture for level 1, 200 for 2, 1000 for 3.

If you hit level 2 with a city without any buildings to advance to three, do you continue gathering culture and just stop at 1000 and as soon as you build a required building move to level 3? Or do you stop at 200 and once you finish a required building you start your climb to lvl three? Or would there be a middle-of-the-road? Or would it just keep accumulating, even if you hit lvl five in accumulated points but you're stuck at three?

That is not entirely how it works.

In my examples in my previous post there was no culture value requirement for the 3rd level.

Think of it like this:

A base can only spread culture in the fat cross (level 2). By spread, I mean that culture is accumulated in the plots included in level 2. Once level 2 is achieved, culture does not grow into level 3. Level 2 is the maximum radius of city culture. Accumulation continues.

In order to have culture affecting level 3 plots you need a special building (SBL3). SBL3 does NOT affect city generated culture; rather, it generates culture on its own in a level 3 radius. Hence, affecting plots outside the fat cross (level 2). SBL3 cannot affect culture at level 4+, but it affects all plots within the level 3 radius.

Makes sense now?

Makes sense to me.

Does this mean we're trying to keep bases further apart than vanilla civ4? The 3rd and 4th and beyond rings might not come into play very often.

And what do you do when a rival faction's 5th ring is encroaching on your 2nd ring? How is this going to be resolved?

I like the idea, don't get me wrong.

Makes sense to me.

Does this mean we're trying to keep bases further apart than vanilla civ4? The 3rd and 4th and beyond rings might not come into play very often.

And what do you do when a rival faction's 5th ring is encroaching on your 2nd ring? How is this going to be resolved?

I like the idea, don't get me wrong.

The 3rd and 4th levels will come into play, but it requires the player to actively seek it. I think base placement will become similar to Civ4.

Culture wars are resolved just like Civ4. Cities can flip, just like Civ4 (if we want flipping).

I wasn't too worried about flipping, but more the tug of war over tiles. Will each tile's cultural value be counted the same no matter how it is accumulated? Not that I understand tile ownership anyhow. ;)

That is not entirely how it works.

In my examples in my previous post there was no culture value requirement for the 3rd level.

Think of it like this:

A base can only spread culture in the fat cross (level 2). By spread, I mean that culture is accumulated in the plots included in level 2. Once level 2 is achieved, culture does not grow into level 3. Level 2 is the maximum radius of city culture. Accumulation continues.

In order to have culture affecting level 3 plots you need a special building (SBL3). SBL3 does NOT affect city generated culture; rather, it generates culture on its own in a level 3 radius. Hence, affecting plots outside the fat cross (level 2). SBL3 cannot affect culture at level 4+, but it affects all plots within the level 3 radius.

Makes sense now?

Ah, gotcha. That makes sense now.

Will each tile's cultural value be counted the same no matter how it is accumulated?

Yes, I should think so.

In Planetfall culture is called "Energy Grid".

I'd suggest to consider culture as both the energy grid and psi control. That way we can have a Planet-friendly and Planet-unfriendly way of expanding your territory.

I'd suggest to consider culture as both the energy grid and psi control. That way we can have a Planet-friendly and Planet-unfriendly way of expanding your territory.

Since the "energy grid" is really, as I see it, something that is just how strong the energy field coming from your base is, I would say we could easily have Planet-friendly buildings that allow for extra energy (culture) output. I think it would make more sense. I'm still not sure what I think about psi in something that goes past a simple unit.

I'd suggest to consider culture as both the energy grid and psi control. That way we can have a Planet-friendly and Planet-unfriendly way of expanding your territory.

I am already considering this but haven't had the chance to present something tangible.

Since the "energy grid" is really, as I see it, something that is just how strong the energy field coming from your base is, I would say we could easily have Planet-friendly buildings that allow for extra energy (culture) output. I think it would make more sense. I'm still not sure what I think about psi in something that goes past a simple unit.

I think it's possible to combine both the energy grid and psi as ways to control territory. IIRC the reason why it was suggested to use the energy grid as concept for culture is because you need the energy grid connected everywhere to power up all the various terrain improvements etc outside your base. But of course, being able to supply energy somewhere is pointless if it's too dangerous for your colonists to move far away from the base without being whacked by mind worms. So from that point it makes sense that Planet-unfriendly factions will have a harder time controlling the area far away from their base (see the proposed Planet value on base level). If you are strong in the Psi force however, you can either use these powers to befriend the mind worms, making it easier to control the surrounding area, or create a psi field around your base repelling the mind worms.

A common explanation of what psi really is, was to consider psi the fifth fundamental force in the universe, besides gravity, electromagnetism, weak and strong interaction. So basically psi would then also be just another form of energy, and using Progenitor technology, you could create machinery which emits a psi field, forming a resonance grid, whatever you want you call it, which transforms energy into psi and also repels native life. (In game terms: the turn commerce into culture process)

So basically I think energy grid and psi control can be perfectly combined.

I think it's possible to combine both the energy grid and psi as ways to control territory. IIRC the reason why it was suggested to use the energy grid as concept for culture is because you need the energy grid connected everywhere to power up all the various terrain improvements etc outside your base. But of course, being able to supply energy somewhere is pointless if it's too dangerous for your colonists to move far away from the base without being whacked by mind worms. So from that point it makes sense that Planet-unfriendly factions will have a harder time controlling the area far away from their base (see the proposed Planet value on base level). If you are strong in the Psi force however, you can either use these powers to befriend the mind worms, making it easier to control the surrounding area, or create a psi field around your base repelling the mind worms.

A common explanation of what psi really is, was to consider psi the fifth fundamental force in the universe, besides gravity, electromagnetism, weak and strong interaction. So basically psi would then also be just another form of energy, and using Progenitor technology, you could create machinery which emits a psi field, forming a resonance grid, whatever you want you call it, which transforms energy into psi and also repels native life. (In game terms: the turn commerce into culture process)

So basically I think energy grid and psi control can be perfectly combined.

If you guys can come up with the rationalization like that, I'd go for it ;P

Very inventive and scientifically acceptable as this theory is not currently refuted. It's the same than MOND theory ( Modified Newton Dynamics ) which tell that mutual attraction between two celestial corpse isn't strictly inverse proportionnal to d².
I'll go for it !

:agree:

edit - Too funny. The smilie is agreeing and pointing to nothing since snipper's post is at the dreaded bottom of the page. :twitch:

It's a bad habit for me.

That's the snipper position. :p

In line with my previous statements on abstraction versus detail, I'd prefer to leave the explantions of the concepts somewhat open.

I suggest the name Psych Grid.

The Psych Grid combines energy, psi and whatever else we can think of that is required to keep citizens, workers and military "happy". As in both SMAC/X and Civ4, happiness can be derived from many different sources; military protection, police, luxuries (resources), culture, facilities, etc. I use the abstract term Psych to denote any kind of happiness (or happiness effect)--just as it is done in SMAC/X; I leave it to the player to deal with connotations; be it education, fungal gin, safety, etc.

The Grid is the structure by which Psych is distributed outside of the bases, but this should be considered in close relation to what happens at the base. For example, researchers "in the field" need to be in close contact with the labs at the base in order to work more efficiently.

Energy (or power) is distributed via the Grid as part of the Psych abstraction but the grid is capable of far more than simply conveying wireless power. Whether energy is converted somehow into psi or psi is distributed via the grid is irrelevant. My reasoning for the slider conversion from gold (energy) to psych is simply that the grid has a maintenance and "running" cost and the more gold poured into the Psych Grid the more efficient it becomes.

This approach can fit with Maniac's idea of Planet related effects. The Psych Grid is sustained by some kind of generators or emitters, conveying energy, psi and all that--from the base, that is. If the base holds a Psi Controller facility or something, more psi is distributed via the Psych Grid and affects native lifeforms inside the Psych Grid (cultural borders), but the Psych Grid can function even without any significant psi distribution (though native life would probably be increasingly aggressive). Without the safety provided by "psi protection" we can rationalize that safety is derived from drugs or some kind of propaganda, etc., etc.

I should think it possible to have a specific base facility depend on Planet rating, so that we can allow borders to extend based on Planet rating. For example, consider two facilities: The Grid Administration and the Manifold Resonator.

The Grid Administration facility gives and affects a level 4 Psych Grid. The Manifold Resonator provides a Psych Grid level corresponding to the current Planet rating; hence with a Planet rating of 4 the Manifold Resonator affects the same area as a Grid Administration. With a Planet rating of 6 the Manifold Resonator provides a level 6 Psych Grid, etc., etc. Even with a Grid Administration present in the base, the Manifold Resonator will still strengthen the Psych Grid, thus making Planet rating matter even if you are running a low Planet rating (we could even make it so that a negative Planet rating subtracts accumulated "culture" from plots if a Manifold Resonator is present at the base. -5 Planet rating would affect a level 5 area negatively. Might be worth considering if we can scrap such facilities.)

We can think of all sorts of Planet rating related effects within the Psych Grid; bonus/penalty to psi warfare, fungus tile output, fungal blooms, etc.

This basically represents how I've viewed the concept of culture since post #11 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5123188&postcount=11) in this thread with the addition of Planet rating effects.

That's the snipper position. :p

lol

In line with my previous statements on abstraction versus detail, I'd prefer to leave the explantions of the concepts somewhat open.

I suggest the name Psych Grid.

The Psych Grid combines energy, psi and whatever else we can think of that is required to keep citizens, workers and military "happy". As in both SMAC/X and Civ4, happiness can be derived from many different sources; military protection, police, luxuries (resources), culture, facilities, etc. I use the abstract term Psych to denote any kind of happiness (or happiness effect)--just as it is done in SMAC/X; I leave it to the player to deal with connotations; be it education, fungal gin, safety, etc.



I wish I could find the link, but I remember reading an article that made sense to me at the time. When it comes to Science Fiction (as opposed to, say, Fantasy) it's sometimes tough to sell what's going on in the story/game/etc, because it's not been done before. Even fantasy has old technology (like a Chariot), but with Sci-Fi it's all the new technology that is unknown and unusual to us. And once you start getting into an area where what is actually going on is unknown, you start making players uncomfortable.

I know what culture is, but I don't know what a Psych Field is. The description you give is good, but I think that it's too abstract. I think this works in Civ, because players can recognize what's going on under the name of "Culture", but for a futuristic world, these lower-level functions are unknown, and I would hope to provide those details to the player.

When I read your article, I thought of a "Psych Field" some kind of new force ("Psi") that can be emitted similar to radio waves, and those waves could be picked up by humans who can then transfer them into a procedure to release endorphins (handling the "happiness") or picked up by machines to transfer directly into energy to power those machines. Your Psi channels can be run on certain frequencies that, on all channels, machines and humans get mostly the same effect, but Native Life Forms, who are much more sensitive to the Psi frequencies, will behave friendly or hostile based on the frequency you're running (which is determined from your Planet value).

I'm looking for a hard solution such as that, really low level. I'd like to hear what others have to say about going with a high-, mid-, or low-level detail for this.

Gerikes, two things:

1) Its Psych Grid, not field.

2) While the Psych Grid in itself is an entity (consisting of transmitters, emitters, structures, waves, etc.) Psych is NOT an entity. Psych is an abstraction, a concept. It can denote entities or particulars like the "force field" you describe, but such a force field would only be one component among many that are part of the Psych abstraction and therefore part of the Psych Grid.

While (wireless) energy/power may not necessarily be part of the Psych concept, energy/power can still be part of the Psych Grid.

Edit: I don't think it difficult to do a Civilopedia entry that explains all of this in more detail--while preserving the abstract nature of the Psych concept and the Psych Grid.

edit 2: I like your description of the Psych Field very much, Gerikes!

Gerikes, two things:

1) Its Psych Grid, not field.



My mistake :hammer2:


2) While the Psych Grid in itself is an entity (consisting of transmitters, emitters, structures, waves, etc.) Psych is NOT an entity. Psych is an abstraction, a concept. It can denote entities or particulars like the "force field" you describe, but such a force field would only be one component among many that are part of the Psych abstraction and therefore part of the Psych Grid.


I understand what you're saying. I am just of the mindset that in many cases I'm aware of, the main goal of abstraction is to hide things that are potentially overbearing to the user (as is the case of Cultural micromanagemnt, imagine having to set a bunch of different sliders, one for music, another for theatre, another for film, etc.).

I believe, however, that in a sci-fi game, the most important part is allowing players to play with futuristic ideas. I just don't like the idea of saying "in the future, there's a concept of a Psych Grid. You can increase or decrease it as you will, but it's like a futuristic version of culture, for more info read the Civilopedia." I think that the main ideas of what the Psych Grid represents should be directly in the game, and the Civilopedia should delve deeper into the subject. In order to do this in an effecient manner, the Psych Grid cannot abstract a bunch of different ideas.

Luckily, I don't think that it's too necessary, as in the end what we have is basically culture put into a different wordings. It would be tough to test out the two different ideas that we have because they essential, as game rules go, do the exact same thing. I just think it would be more interesting to have a solidified notion of what the tiles represent rather than seeing some abstract concept.

Quite a discussion on how to describe a basic concept.

However you call it, energy grid, culture, psych field/grid, what it all boils down to is the presence of people with a certain mindset/technical power on those plots. Simply put, it is Expansion.

I think this label could cover most of the ideas brought up in the thread. The presence of people, whether they are there to herald their convictions or to construct a powerline to power their machines is the basic thing here. I know that few people would go out on a dangerous planet, but the bottom point is that some people will have to get out to those areas to help support their kin back at base, whether it be as researchers of native life, engineers putting up a tankfarm or mine or solar panel or military types securing a perimeter.

So, how does this sound as a new culture definition on a virgin planet? :D

I've proposed Propaganda in an other thread, so I post it here. Geo's Expansion looks a bit like Exclusive Economic Area.

The beauty of it (in my view) is that it covers all sorts of territorial progress of any sort of faction. If you're the Spartans, you expand your area by military presence. As the Gaians, you embrace the land you live in. Morganite presence is the the EEA you refer to, Snipper. :p
It could even be done that the way territory expands is different for the main ideologies: Gaian expansion is aided by ie Chiron Preserves, biolabs and such. The Spartan barracks does the same for them. Morganites do extra influence by energy banks and similar facilities... and so on for the other factions.

So civ-specific buildings grant :culture:? Or at least buildings can be built by all civs, but when Miriam builds a temple it aids Expansion whereas Santiago wouldn't gain expansion from this building. I like that if that's what you mean.

That's what I meant. :)
I also think this hints a player to a certain factionstyle while not deliberaty forcing him since it is partly (mostly?) done by a constructed facility.

I really like it Geo.

So all buildings and Factions are going to be tagged in a certain manner so that if the tags match then culture is added to the city.

What about tweener factions? Say you're 50-50 Industrial-Religious? Would you get 1/2 culture for buildings from each class?

And I have no idea which faction is industrial-religious in the example.

I really like it Geo.

So all buildings and Factions are going to be tagged in a certain manner so that if the tags match then culture is added to the city.

Thanks. And yes, if the majority agrees to such a system.
It could be as elaborate as a check on the type of facilities a faction has in a given base, or simply a + [insert number here] :culture: on particular facilities this faction owns. Quite a bit like the unique building concept in Warlords in the latter example.

What about tweener factions? Say you're 50-50 Industrial-Religious? Would you get 1/2 culture for buildings from each class?

And I have no idea which faction is industrial-religious in the example.

Haven't thought sofar yet, but the I read some indications that the so-called tweener factions would start later as offspring from the 7 core-factions? In any case, there will be facilities that suit the offspring factions the most like a Covert Ops Centre for the Data Angels, or a Brood Pit for the Cult of Planet.

If the majority agrees is this something as easy as checking flavor and adding it to culture or will it require python/SDK I wonder... :hmm:

It's OK for me ! It could be achieved via traits ( Unique Power ? ) giving extra expansion to particular buildings. Two points : 1/the balancing 2/ How to represents Expansion points ?

1 - Balancing is always fun in playtesting. It helps when a lot of different styles are playing, which I think we have here.

2 - A big hand reaching for more? :D

Well, I have this inclination to let certain facilities for certain factions double up the functions. Like a Spartan barrack gives the (normal) +[insert number] effect on morale/XP, but in addition gives a +[insert number] effect on culture/expansion. A lot like the unique building concept in Warlords. It would also omit the need for the Spartans to build (hologram) theatres so to speak.
The second consideration was (on doubling up functions on facilities) to decrease the workload on modelers if facilities would be showed in cities/bases. I haven't found out yet if this will happen or not in the mod, as I've seen discussion on if there should be unique graphics for facilities or not.

As on how to represent "Expansion" graphically in the mod? A new icon instead of :culture: would be nice of course! My first thought is something like a "two-suns-with-a-planet" symbol instead of the classic cultural one.

I think it could be a hand holding a (red?) flag.

Now, don't get commie on us. ;)

The idea of tying certain buildings with a faction's style (traits, flavor, or something else) that give bonuses to "culture" is intriguing, but I would be wrong to simply accept this without a little bit of grilling the new guy, now wouldn't I? :lol:

Do you think that this would in any way "force" the player into that style? For example, what if I really like playing as Deidre for the economical planet bonus, but I don't like doing a lot of stuff with native life forms (that I assume will be a larger part of the game). A lot of the buildings that Deidre makes that give her these cultural bonuses might have to do with allowing native life forms to grow. I would basically be forced to build these buildings to compete culture-wise with others who are doing strategies more towards their Faction's style of play, even though I don't really want them for my strategy.

I would suggest the concept is tied more to Civics, so that a player might want to choose an alternative strategy not common with their faction and still be able to achieve the necessary culture needed to expand. The Civic tie-in can be solo or together with tie-in's to a faction or leaderhead, at least enough to say that if you stick with that faction's type of strategy, you'll be good, but you won't be completely backward culture-wise if you deviate from it. After all, say we go with Social Engineering a leaderhead will already have bonuses for certain bonuses for categories.

An example would be, following the Deidre example, that perhaps Deidre is high in planet, but chooses Civics that put her also reasonably high in tech gain (going for a really big turtle strategy, where she uses her economical strength of xenofungus tiles on a high native-life map together with tech-increasing civics). Any buildings that give bonuses to tech factions don't really increase her culture, even though in this game Planet and Tech are her two main priorities.

So it comes back to the Civics/SE debate. :) I wouldn't mind tying it in this way either.

As on how to represent "Expansion" graphically in the mod? A new icon instead of :culture: would be nice of course! My first thought is something like a "two-suns-with-a-planet" symbol instead of the classic cultural one.

Or perhaps the Doctrine: Mobility tech icon if it's clear enough at such small size?


I like just calling Culture "Expansion". However if you give culture to unique buildings for factions for whom building those buildings was a good idea anyway, you're basically giving culture for free, and removing how and if to get culture as one of the strategic choices of the game.

Or perhaps the Doctrine: Mobility tech icon if it's clear enough at such small size?

Good call. :goodjob: It maintains the SMAC style then.

Do you think that this would in any way "force" the player into that style? For example, what if I really like playing as Deidre for the economical planet bonus, but I don't like doing a lot of stuff with native life forms (that I assume will be a larger part of the game). A lot of the buildings that Deidre makes that give her these cultural bonuses might have to do with allowing native life forms to grow. I would basically be forced to build these buildings to compete culture-wise with others who are doing strategies more towards their Faction's style of play, even though I don't really want them for my strategy.

I would suggest the concept is tied more to Civics, so that a player might want to choose an alternative strategy not common with their faction and still be able to achieve the necessary culture needed to expand. The Civic tie-in can be solo or together with tie-in's to a faction or leaderhead, at least enough to say that if you stick with that faction's type of strategy, you'll be good, but you won't be completely backward culture-wise if you deviate from it. After all, say we go with Social Engineering a leaderhead will already have bonuses for certain bonuses for categories.

Okay... how about putting a small percentage modifier on so-called faction must-have facilities? Instead of +1 or +2 :culture: or something, it adds +5% or +10% :culture: . The impact is way less profound and would only work if a basic facility is present that adds culture/expansion to every faction regardless of style. And if you let civic/SE choices offer the brunt of expansion/culture increase (in the range of +50-100%) it would only help, not dominate.
AFAIK, facilities can have a percentage modifier instead of a hard number, since the Hermitage does this already. Just in case someone wondered if facilities CAN do this.


So, the underlying reasoning here is that, for slow :culture:/expansion progress, there is only one basic facility that can be constructed in every base (let's call it the Administrator Office or Base Administration for the moment) which would give this hard figure :culture:, and civics/SE + this particular facility per faction can only work with this small number to maintain a :culture: war with other factions.

Using Doctrine : Mobility as a base, I've done that :

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/105110/expansion.png

Be careful, this pic is 256x256 so it should appear better with the small icon

That looks pretty cool snipper. Nice job.

I have a dds size 32. Where must I put it if we go with that ?

Buttons aren't my thing, sorry. I think we've found our button maker though!

You don't know I've made some buttons previously ?
there are in my sig !
I Can inform you my third pack will be released this weekend. ;)

I knew you made them, but now you've volunteered. ;)

I thought I had specified 2D some times ago.
Here's preview :

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/105110/expansionpreview.png

Snipper, you're literally on the ball mate. :goodjob:

I don't know this expression but thanks, and it is Maniac idea to use mobility so he must be congratulated as well.

I already did. ;)
"on the ball" means being on top of things.

I already did. ;)
"on the ball" means being on top of things.

And "on top of things" means doing good work in a very timely manner (just in case)... :P


Okay... how about putting a small percentage modifier on so-called faction must-have facilities? Instead of +1 or +2 or something, it adds +5% or +10% . The impact is way less profound and would only work if a basic facility is present that adds culture/expansion to every faction regardless of style. And if you let civic/SE choices offer the brunt of expansion/culture increase (in the range of +50-100%) it would only help, not dominate.


That would be fine with me. I don't really worry about a base increase vs. a percentage increase, so long as the end result is that a player can play an alternate strategy to their Faction/Leader's strengths and not having to suffer from incredibly poor Expansion. The actual values can be tweaked, but if there were a way to change culture based on buildings, I would at least have it tied to something other than just factions, which can't be changed throughout the game.


AFAIK, facilities can have a percentage modifier instead of a hard number, since the Hermitage does this already. Just in case someone wondered if facilities CAN do this.


And if not, or if it doesn't work the way we want, I could always add a new XML tag.



So, the underlying reasoning here is that, for slow /expansion progress, there is only one basic facility that can be constructed in every base (let's call it the Administrator Office or Base Administration for the moment) which would give this hard figure , and civics/SE + this particular facility per faction can only work with this small number to maintain a war with other factions.


Could we perhaps tie this directly from building to Civic also? For example, a militaristic civic could allow all Barracks to give +3 Expansion, but a planet Civic would allow all Hybrid Forests to give +3 Expansion? This is all regardless of Faction, although perhaps you can also get a +1 from the Barracks if you also are Sparta.

Could we perhaps tie this directly from building to Civic also? For example, a militaristic civic could allow all Barracks to give +3 Expansion, but a planet Civic would allow all Hybrid Forests to give +3 Expansion? This is all regardless of Faction, although perhaps you can also get a +1 from the Barracks if you also are Sparta.

Mmm... sounds even better, and much clearer then percentages. The number crunchers would love this.
This also means that with the right civic combinations and the right base facilities an "expansion skirmish" is still possible, taking the saying "the occasional skirmish for resources" in the SMAX intro to a whole new meaning.

I can find myself in this. If there are no other objections from anyone, let's do it? :)

I don't object, but I'd love to also come to a conclusion about civics, SE, or a combo. I'm now in the ambivalent stage after being passionate about SEs for so long. I won't threadjack though...

I rather like the idea of faction-specific expansion, but before I got to that I realized I was misinterpreting the stated idea of an energy grid; I was seeing it more in the light of what would probably be a morgan-specific factional expansion.
The whole economy is based on energy, right? And you've got an entire planet that is essentially unclaimed, right? It seems to me that since you don't have rural population spread out all over the place (as it is in Civ 4) the way to claim this land would be purely legal in nature; that is, different factions would be struggling to prove ownership of a plot of land not by who lives there, but by who has the superior rights to it; that is why I like the faction-specific expansion idea, but I think another interpretation of an "energy grid" also warrants attention.

Summary:
-Energy is the basis of the economy, not products or labor.
-Bases produce energy.
-The surrounding lands cannot be claimed or held conventionally.

Keeping all that in mind, it seems to me that factions would determine their rights to a given plot of land by who can better supply it with energy, and who can use their labor, the energy supplied, and the land's resources more efficiently to produce more energy for the world economy. Who provides the cheapest power to a given area represents this well enough. To this effect, a Base's "Energy Grid" represents how far a base can efficiently transmit power, while also being a measure of its economic strength.

So: I think that the key "Culture" generators should be industrial reactors geared towards lossless energy transmission over long distances, with other power-and-energy-associated buildings providing smaller amounts. This would also involve a retooling of the culture system: instead of "gradually" generating "culture", it would come in clumps with the completion of new or upgraded facilities. It would also mean that buildings of an essentially economic nature would be the prime movers for borders. "Spending" energy credits on "culture" would be the equivalent of investing in Relay Stations throughout your borders, with the more prosperous bases having more energy to direct towards it, and would be the only way to "gradually" grow borders.

Since energy means security in a society that uses it as a currency, culture flipping still makes sense: If a base's population is being overlooked for economic development by their factional leaders to the point that a nearby faction's surplus energy production abilities completely overshadow their own, they might start to question their loyalties.

This would also mean that a "Domination Victory" would have more in common with "Cornering the Global Energy Market" from SMAC. Imagine a situation where Morgan is approaching his mark on total land area needed for victory; Deirdre prepares to invade his core cities with a strike force of native life forms, but in one of his dinky cities at the edge of her territory, he manages to complete a new state-of-the-art power generator, offering cheaper power services to a swath of her faction's territory than her own bases can afford to offer with their outdated planet-friendly reactors; suddenly she is facing Bases without the means to draw enough resources from the outside, since the industries based in her former territory are subscribing to Morgan's cheaper power network now! She has to put off her attack, as her cities can't produce enough units to finish her task force in time, allowing Morgan enough time to build another generator and establish Morgan Industries as the dominant energy-supplier on the planet, effectively winning the game.

...having said all that, I think the more general "expansion idea", and all the associated points brought up in relation to it, is a very good interpretation, and could easily include what I've just put as a Morgan-specific way of looking at things.

I like the idea of a range of transmitted power. That makes the most sense to me, out of all the things tossed around.

One question was how does it make sense for another civ's borders to push yours out? How about this: transmitted power requires specific harmonics / frequencies, and is encoded so that only your own equipment can use it. Different harmonics interfere with each other. So, it makes sense that one civ with stronger transmitters or whatever will be able to push its borders further.

Transmitted power also makes sense in how it enables units to repair (heal) faster.

By the way this would be "low grade" power. Enough to run a sensor net and minor things like that, but nothing on the scale to enable a hovertank to run (in other words, vehicles require their own power plant despite this energy grid).

Plus, transmitted power is a technology that we (Earth) don't have right now, so we have license to make up how it functions. i.e., we can do whatever we want for good gameplay.

Wodan

Micro-waves transmission ! It is a solid track of research actually. It consists of satellites collecting energy and transmitting it to earth via micro-waves !

I doubt we'll have satellites too early on, but using them to expand culture/energy grid later on could be cool.

I like the idea of a range of transmitted power. That makes the most sense to me, out of all the things tossed around.

One question was how does it make sense for another civ's borders to push yours out? How about this: transmitted power requires specific harmonics / frequencies, and is encoded so that only your own equipment can use it. Different harmonics interfere with each other. So, it makes sense that one civ with stronger transmitters or whatever will be able to push its borders further.

Transmitted power also makes sense in how it enables units to repair (heal) faster.

By the way this would be "low grade" power. Enough to run a sensor net and minor things like that, but nothing on the scale to enable a hovertank to run (in other words, vehicles require their own power plant despite this energy grid).

Plus, transmitted power is a technology that we (Earth) don't have right now, so we have license to make up how it functions. i.e., we can do whatever we want for good gameplay.

Wodan


I had the same idea for the "conflicting frequencies". However, there seems to be some call for something that is an abstract idea like culture as opposed to a more concrete idea like distributed or "wireless" power. I'm not saying abstract is bad and concrete good, but my opinion is concrete.

Would anyone be against coming up with a timeline (say, by Sunday) of two (or even three) separate, very defined ideas for "culture" and then putting it to a vote the next week? Luckily, the outcome wouldn't affect gameplay TOO much, but does affect how we might think about gameplay.

Nope not too soon. I'll vote whenever distinct ideas are presented.

I had the same idea for the "conflicting frequencies". However, there seems to be some call for something that is an abstract idea like culture as opposed to a more concrete idea like distributed or "wireless" power. I'm not saying abstract is bad and concrete good, but my opinion is concrete.

No, I think you got this slightly wrong.

The abstraction enters where we try to explain "why" energy or power transmissions confer the benefits/penalties they do. The idea of "conflicting frequencies" is intuitive and good. I like it.

However, I would also like to see the "grid" capable of transmitting something less obvious and more abstract like psi or resonance fields (progenitor technology). This is in addition to power/energy and could possibly be made available later in the game. Hence, I suggested the name Psych Grid to allow for more flexibility in concept design and to avoid confusion with the SMAC/X Energy Grids (Secret Project and progenitor commerce). This should, of course, be seen as part of a larger set of concepts that we want in Planetfall.

Would anyone be against coming up with a timeline (say, by Sunday) of two (or even three) separate, very defined ideas for "culture" and then putting it to a vote the next week? Luckily, the outcome wouldn't affect gameplay TOO much, but does affect how we might think about gameplay.

As long as the idea I have suggested is understood, I do not mind it being rejected. Let's say we use your original idea of wireless power as template for setting up the "culture" concept. Detail it, and I will add my idea and you can decide if you want to use my ideas as part of this concept. If my ideas are rejected we would have one less option in the poll.

May I suggest that 1 paragraph write-ups be done for each option? Either assign one person to do all the write ups, or farm each write up to each original proposer. This doesn't have to take a lot of time.

Wodan

The abstraction enters where we try to explain "why" energy or power transmissions confer the benefits/penalties they do. The idea of "conflicting frequencies" is intuitive and good. I like it.


I'll do a write-up in the next day or so taking what I've originally thought and any rethinking due to discussion. You might look at it and say "no way", and have your own idea to write up for Sunday.


As long as the idea I have suggested is understood, I do not mind it being rejected. Let's say we use your original idea of wireless power as template for setting up the "culture" concept. Detail it, and I will add my idea and you can decide if you want to use my ideas as part of this concept. If my ideas are rejected we would have one less option in the poll.


I was saying each person (or people with similar ideas) comes up with a paragraph or two of their ideas, and we'll use those to describe the ideas in the poll thread. It would be silly if I were to write all of the ideas, because I would clearly have a bias, although I would try my hardest not to let it show.

How many different ideas are there, exactly? I considered my interpretation to be unique enough to constitute its own idea, so if it isn't seen as running too close with the others, should I try to sum that up? More importantly, can I get some feedback first, if that's the case?

From what I've read, the distinct ideas are:

-Working tiles to claim them from the environment
-Memetic transmission as culture
-Psych-Grid
-Hybrid Meme-Energy-Psych-Psi Grid
-Expansion, as a generic term for faction-specific building effects
-Energy Grid, as a method of supplying power to improvements
-Energy Grid, as a maximum range of power transmission
-Energy Grid, as a method of determining legal ownership or industrial loyalty of land

How many different ideas are there, exactly? I considered my interpretation to be unique enough to constitute its own idea, so if it isn't seen as running too close with the others, should I try to sum that up? More importantly, can I get some feedback first, if that's the case?

From what I've read, the distinct ideas are:

-Working tiles to claim them from the environment
-Memetic transmission as culture
-Psych-Grid
-Hybrid Meme-Energy-Psych-Psi Grid
-Expansion, as a generic term for faction-specific building effects
-Energy Grid, as a method of supplying power to improvements
-Energy Grid, as a maximum range of power transmission
-Energy Grid, as a method of determining legal ownership or industrial loyalty of land

See, that's the thing, the your idea of the "pysch-grid" might be different from my idea of the "psych-grid" might be different from another idea of the "psych-grid". Rather than use terms that are new and possibly confused, we'll each need to describe exactly what the concept of "culture" represents. It wouldn't even need to discuss gameplay, just what those colored tiles represent.


A base is seen as a central distributer of "wireless" power. Due to the hostile nature of the new planet, there are few reasons to leave the main base for much of the population. Military, Exploration, and building improvements (for research, food gathering, whatever) are included in these things. In order to power remote facilities, a "wireless" energy grid surrounds the base, and remote facilities outside of the base can only be placed in the radius of this grid. Each faction uses different frequencies such that you can't receive power from your base if the frequency of another faction is too strong in that area. Proprietary algorithms prevent you from "sapping" others energy (although it might be a neat SA). Thus, you "own" a tile when your frequency is the dominant frequency in that tile.

Since each faction runs on a different frequency, the players that run their faction to adopt to nature will naturally choose frequencies that don't interfere with native life, whereas those who are trying to terraform to earth will have picked frequencies that best suit their needs, and in almost all cases disturb native planet life

I agree with a big helping of that, Gerikes, and it makes a lot of sense when summarized as such. I'll still provide my outlook...


Each base has dedicated wireless power generation and transmission facilities which require guidance and maintenance to work properly; these are owned by loyalists to the faction, or the faction itself. The abundance and reach of their power determines how far out and how cheaply they can provide power to a given tile. Tiles are "owned" by private enterprises, and will 'switch allegiance', IE switch service providers, depending on who can provide the cheapest power. If the cheapest power involves subscribing to a system where they must provide X in exchange for state-distributed Y power under a planned economy, so be it. This relationship is different for power-generating tiles, like solar panels; for these, the different Power Industries operating out of the bases are instead vying for the rights to bring power in to the base; whoever can provide the cheapest power for that tile (and is therefore most able to profit from it) is the one who retains rights to it. Under this system, borders expand in bursts when new generators/transmitters are built, rather than gradually. The ability to invest in border expansions represents the installation of smaller transmission facilities throughout existing borders. Enemy bases flipping represents an entire base becoming disillusioned with a stagnant local energy market.

Gerikes, I am somewhat agreeing with your view and would not object if this goes into the mod.

I think I am wasting my time on balancing connotations and denotations here. Maybe you fail to grasp what I am talking about, just don't like the idea of the presented abstraction or see no need for a general concept that can be used as a "joker" or "wild card" throughout explaining the sci-fi universe we are trying to create. I don't really know.

I offer flexibility on concepts via abstraction (less detail) and I would have liked to see the "Energy Grid" adjusted to allow for something more than just plain power and all the trivial explanations on how power or energy is important in territorial dominance.

In SMAC/X happiness and unhappiness are represented by talents, psych and drones. Even if its just the wording I get a sense of something more and something else than simply drones being unhappy citizens and psych being a measure of how much "luxuries" or "happiness" is being distributed. These SMAC/X terms are still mysterious to me in that I do not know exactly and in detail what the terms denote.

Its a little glimpse of magic because "my" SMAC/X universe is different from "your" SMAC/X universe.

Gerikes, I am somewhat agreeing with your view and would not object if this goes into the mod.

I think I am wasting my time on balancing connotations and denotations here. Maybe you fail to grasp what I am talking about, just don't like the idea of the presented abstraction or see no need for a general concept that can be used as a "joker" or "wild card" throughout explaining the sci-fi universe we are trying to create. I don't really know.

I offer flexibility on concepts via abstraction (less detail) and I would have liked to see the "Energy Grid" adjusted to allow for something more than just plain power and all the trivial explanations on how power or energy is important in territorial dominance.

In SMAC/X happiness and unhappiness are represented by talents, psych and drones. Even if its just the wording I get a sense of something more and something else than simply drones being unhappy citizens and psych being a measure of how much "luxuries" or "happiness" is being distributed. These SMAC/X terms are still mysterious to me in that I do not know exactly and in detail what the terms denote.

Its a little glimpse of magic because "my" SMAC/X universe is different from "your" SMAC/X universe.

I understand where you're coming from. I realize that your idea is almost 90% in agreeable with mine, you just take that extra step and say that the Energy Grid become a Psych-grid and that it's effect is more than just electromagnetic induction. In the end, I just am really attached to my idea, and part of that is the idea that the energy grid is just that, and that is has nothing to do with psych or happiness. I may be alone in that sentiment, and maybe everyone else likes the idea but are with you in thinking that the idea of "psych" should also be part of this.

The closest I would go to a Psych-grid is what I mentioned here:


When I read your article, I thought of a "Psych Field" some kind of new force ("Psi") that can be emitted similar to radio waves, and those waves could be picked up by humans who can then transfer them into a procedure to release endorphins (handling the "happiness") or picked up by machines to transfer directly into energy to power those machines. Your Psi channels can be run on certain frequencies that, on all channels, machines and humans get mostly the same effect, but Native Life Forms, who are much more sensitive to the Psi frequencies, will behave friendly or hostile based on the frequency you're running (which is determined from your Planet value).


Your response to this was:


While the Psych Grid in itself is an entity (consisting of transmitters, emitters, structures, waves, etc.) Psych is NOT an entity. Psych is an abstraction, a concept. It can denote entities or particulars like the "force field" you describe, but such a force field would only be one component among many that are part of the Psych abstraction and therefore part of the Psych Grid.


To which I decided that while I was ok with a Psych Grid with transmitters, emitters, structures, waves, etc., I didn't like the idea of expanding the idea of culture to include abstractions such as drugs or propaganda.

Gerikes, I think you are missing an important factor in your evaluation--and this is what I was referring to when trying to account for the reasons why my idea failed.

Drugs and propaganda are part of the Civ4 culture abstraction; whether these are included in your connotations or not is irrelevant. The strength of the concept lies in its lack of denotation.

Your "Energy Grid" has a scientific explanation; its simple, highly detailed and rigid. As a player, you already lost me. You told me what to think and unlike me, you are happy about it. I may differ from other players, though, so its not all bad (except for me, of course).

The important factor you are missing is that my Psych aspect is flexible. For example, if you are unhappy with the broad term Psych to account for wireless power transmission, you can freely remove this particular from the abstraction. This does not mean that you need to remove wireless power from the Psych Grid... the Psych Grid is simply the common term for the "entity" (the grid structure) that conveys 1) wireless power and 2) Psych. (You may still dislike the idea, though.)

I used "happiness" as a general term (an abstraction to denote another abstraction) and perhaps this was what lost you. The important part was not "happiness" but an abstraction we could use to explain several "mechanics" or features of the Planetfall universe.

I think you are missing an important factor in your evaluation--and this is what I was referring to when trying to account for the reasons why my idea failed.

I don't personally like the idea of abstracting culture to that degree; or rather, using civ 4's cultural abstractions and adding more aspects to them (power generation, psi control, etc), but I think the idea is entirely workable, and I wouldn't have any opposition to seeing that system in-game if a majority preferred it. You can hardly call the idea a failure if we haven't had a final vote on an idea yet. I think any of our ideas are workable and would be received favorably by players, so long as they made sense and were easy to explain in the pedia.

Gerikes, I think you are missing an important factor in your evaluation--and this is what I was referring to when trying to account for the reasons why my idea failed.


Your idea hasn't failed. There hasn't even been a vote. You do a great job explaining your ideas, and I understand why you think they would work better. And maybe they would. Maybe we want to build a game like you believe, where we want to have that abstraction, that freedom to think on our own what the different concepts mean. Or maybe we want a game like me where the story has interesting quirks that go deeper into describing the world.

You are a very good communicator, I can understand what you're saying. I think we just disagree.


Drugs and propaganda are part of the Civ4 culture abstraction; whether these are included in your connotations or not is irrelevant. The strength of the concept lies in its lack of denotation.

Your "Energy Grid" has a scientific explanation; its simple, highly detailed and rigid. As a player, you already lost me. You told me what to think and unlike me, you are happy about it. I may differ from other players, though, so its not all bad (except for me, of course).


I don't know how different you are from other players, but I know that we're different enough to disagree on this. I don't equate that freedom of imagination as constantly a good thing. You may see it as "telling you what to think", I think of it as "telling you a story".


The important factor you are missing is that my Psych aspect is flexible. For example, if you are unhappy with the broad term Psych to account for wireless power transmission, you can freely remove this particular from the abstraction. This does not mean that you need to remove wireless power from the Psych Grid... the Psych Grid is simply the common term for the "entity" (the grid structure) that conveys 1) wireless power and 2) Psych. (You may still dislike the idea, though.)


I don't see how that makes it flexible. I could just as easily rename the "Energy Grid" to "Psych Grid". In fact, I'm sort of leaning that way now. We could also add new ideas to this now renamed "Psych Grid" whenever we wanted. We could make the Psych grid deal with planet life, plant growth, unit morale, special abilities "recharging", whatever we see fit.

For right now, however, I think the idea of "wireless power" or "wireless energy" is the uniting factor of all these things.

I don't see how this discussion will help anything aside from bringing us faster to carpal tunnel. You describe your ideas fine, and I hear you. We just disagree. That's why there should be a vote.

Haha, Gerikes, you twist my points. I am, of course, not advocating concepts that literally go like this:

When colonists arrive at the planet, they start building a place where you can train things that you can use to do things outside the place. You must understand that you need another thing to effectively manage your things outside.

Perhaps you are deliberately misunderstanding my point, but telling a story is a bad idea. This is not a novel we are writing but a game mod and we are severely limited in storytelling. We create abstract models and those are the ones we need to describe. Too rigid and you'll lose players like me.

As you can perhaps see from this we are verging on a discussion on realism and I shall not take part in that.

I already presented my views on realism and detail and judging from the posts in this private forum I think the general interest aims at more realism and more detail. This makes it pointless for me to try work in the opposite direction and since we already have a detailed and realistic "Energy Grid", why not just use this? I am not excited about the "Energy Grid", but its a good idea and it works as a concept.

GRM7584, there are many very, very good ideas in this private forum and--not surprisingly--many of them conflict. I am hoping that we get rid of the good ideas that fail to become favored by the majority--even if the ideas make sense and are workable. Its much easier to get rid of the bad ideas, but we don't really have any of those around here ;)

Hence, I deem it pointless to keep the idea of a Psych Grid alive. Of the remaining ideas, my vote goes to Gerikes' "Energy Grid".

Perhaps you are deliberately misunderstanding my point, but telling a story is a bad idea. This is not a novel we are writing but a game mod and we are severely limited in storytelling. We create abstract models and those are the ones we need to describe. Too rigid and you'll lose players like me.


If I'm misrepresenting your point, then my apologies. I mean this with all due respect, but I guess I'm not making a mod for people like you.


Hence, I deem it pointless to keep the idea of a Psych Grid alive. Of the remaining ideas, my vote goes to Gerikes' "Energy Grid".

Could you at least put your idea into a paragraph so that when we can vote on it? If you're right, it fails, and we won't use it. If you're wrong, and it wins, then we do the right thing. Why are you so against at least giving it a chance?

Well, I have this inclination to let certain facilities for certain factions double up the functions. Like a Spartan barrack gives the (normal) +[insert number] effect on morale/XP, but in addition gives a +[insert number] effect on culture/expansion. A lot like the unique building concept in Warlords. It would also omit the need for the Spartans to build (hologram) theatres so to speak.

I'm disinclined to "eliminate the need" for something like that...why not split RecCommons up per faction and give each RecCommons a unique trait parallel to the faction flavour, like so:

All RecCommons generate +2:).
Spartans: Arena, +2 Unit XP
Gaians: Forest Garden, +1:health: (or maybe +1:food:, based on Lal's commentary...:lol:)
Morgans: Casino, +10%:gold:
UN: Reading Room, -1:mad:
Hive: Feeding Bay, +1:health:/:food:, whichever the Garden doesn't get

I just had a thought about the idea of having to "claim land from the planet", and it also might work well with Maniac's idea of arcology bases eventually being able to stealth themselves: How about Fungal Towers acting as "Barbarian cities", with every so many patches of fungus inside the "city" providing a point of "culture" and fungus growing in a square when it accumulates so many points of "Barbarian culture"? That way, eventually factions will have to actively work to "claim land from the fungus" (or at least mount a serious offensive to eradicate the fungal tower, as it'll have a few worms guarding it, and they could get a bonus for being "in their cultural boundaries" instead of just for being inside the fungus), and maybe switching to a hybrid-ecology doctrine could increase the rate of "cultural exchange" between you and the "barbarians".

Maybe even better; if the code from the Mongol mod in Warlords was used, those Fungal Towers could spawn units depending on the type of plot they are on. :D
I think earlier this week somebody ported the Warlords code to BtS, so the basics are ready.

Sounds like roughly what I was thinking, yeah.

I'm disinclined to "eliminate the need" for something like that...why not split RecCommons up per faction and give each RecCommons a unique trait parallel to the faction flavour, like so:

All RecCommons generate +2:).
Spartans: Arena, +2 Unit XP
Gaians: Forest Garden, +1:health: (or maybe +1:food:, based on Lal's commentary...:lol:)
Morgans: Casino, +10%:gold:
UN: Reading Room, -1:mad:
Hive: Feeding Bay, +1:health:/:food:, whichever the Garden doesn't get

I like this idea. I'd vote that Yang gets the +:food:, since I can imagine health being the limiting factor in how large his bases grow.

Hmmm...y'know, even if we divorce RecCommons from the religion mechanic, I'm still inclined to make the "cathedral" equivalent require them, on the basis of being places where people meet to discuss everything from the weather to global politics. Thoughts?

I do like the idea of giving each faction more UBs, so they gain more of their characteristic advantages from development rather than having them built in automatically.

There are a lot of buildings which I think could work this way, where I don't imagine they work the same way for each faction, like the RecComs

So rather than the Believers having network nodes, which I never thought suited them, they could have a Monastery, which boosts happiness or GPP while giving a smaller tech% boost.

Or the punishment spheres, much as I love them, should be off limits to the Peacekeepers, who could have a prison or rehabilitation centre, which only eliminates half or a set number of drones but doesn't affect tech.

This way the factions would become more individual in their advantages as the game went on.

Yeah I kinda like that better. Eg the Peacekeepers get an alternative for the Genejack Factory. Giving all factions a different rec commons is basically the same as giving each faction an inherent bonus anyway, except you make Memetics a must-have tech.

Heh...speaking of that, Maniac, I'm eventually gonna propose an alternative tech-chart, closer to the original one but rearranged and including some of your ideas.

I have an idea:

Perimiter defense keeps native life out of borders, this ability made obsolete with a green, mid-game but vital tech.

Grants the usual protection.

Use the Great Wall code to have a graphical border fence :D That would be awesome.

If there was a wonder in Planetfall that kept out all the Planet-controlled units (Trance Perimeter?), it'd be much coveted. Probably cost a lot, too. Imagine all that time you could spend not having to worry about a local fungal boom suddenly wiping out a bunch of your formers and other units.

I wouldn't make this obsolete through the use of a tech. (Well, maybe one that could produce similar factionwide defenses for every faction. Like Tachyon Fields or something.) Instead, I'd have the wonder only work on Planet-controlled life that's among the first half of the life cycle. And hope the game is engineered so that the Mature Boil worms don't show up until later.

Yeah that'd be good.

A national project. Maybe gives a large boost to psi-defense in ther city where it's built? So it has synergy with a highly polluting base.

Yeah that'd be good.

A national project. Maybe gives a large boost to psi-defense in ther city where it's built? So it has synergy with a highly polluting base.

I've been thinking the Neural Amplifier could be just that. Increase psi defense for all your units within a certain radius from the base. More so as you get closer to the base. If such can be programmed.

If there was a wonder in Planetfall that kept out all the Planet-controlled units (Trance Perimeter?), it'd be much coveted. Probably cost a lot, too. Imagine all that time you could spend not having to worry about a local fungal bloom suddenly wiping out a bunch of your formers and other units.

I wouldn't make this obsolete through the use of a tech. (Well, maybe one that could produce similar factionwide defenses for every faction. Like Tachyon Fields or something.) Instead, I'd have the wonder only work on Planet-controlled life that's among the first half of the life cycle. And hope the game is engineered so that the Mature Boil worms don't show up until later.

Actually, I've been thinking about changing to Citizens' Defence Force to that; I'm big on having the mod's buildings and wonders go through roughly the same changes as the [civ3] -> [civ4] transition where reasonable parallels can be drawn - RecCommons = Temples, Hab Complexes = Aqueducts, etc. Obviously some won't be possible - Creches are basically both Granaries and Courthouses, the Airport functions are split between the Aerospace Complex and the Psi Gate, which friggin' Lab is a University, and what the crap is a Punishment Sphere? :confused: - but where possible...

Actually, I've been thinking about changing to Citizens' Defence Force to that; I'm big on having the mod's buildings and wonders go through roughly the same changes as the [civ3] -> [civ4] transition where reasonable parallels can be drawn - RecCommons = Temples, Hab Complexes = Aqueducts, etc. Obviously some won't be possible - Creches are basically both Granaries and Courthouses, the Airport functions are split between the Aerospace Complex and the Psi Gate, which friggin' Lab is a University, and what the crap is a Punishment Sphere? :confused: - but where possible...Are we sure we want Planetfall to parallel Civilization IV that closely? On one hand, a base with all the non-unique buildings in Planetfall may want a treatment similar to a city with all the non-unique buildings in Civ4. With the major exceptions being stuff involving psi combat and the Planet rating, of course. On the other hand, In Planetfall I'd like to see this total achieved through new facilities that have effects that might not quite parallel any individual buildings in Civ4.

O, I'm not saying it should exactly parallel :bts:; I'm saying it should parallel :bts: where appropriate. I'm not in the slightest advocating tweaking facilities that don't exactly match until they do; I'm saying that those that do match exactly or close should be treated the same way, and that those merely "close" should still have whatever makes them different.

I do like these ideas coming up about the justification of "culture" within Planetfall. I think the ones that make the most sense are ones which are simply making a bit of a modification upon Culture, such as GeoModder's idea of Expansion along with the expanding borders in different ways (Spartans through military might, Morganites through economic domination, etc.), as well as GRM7584's ideas that borders or land claims are somewhat of a legal claim.

The borders, I believe, should reflect the might of the faction and the cities they contain. I fear that if we put too much into the idea of energy production/grid, however, that much of the point of culture is eliminated. I see no problem with culture being an important factor in determining ones' territory. I think of it as something (at least within the context of Alpha Centauri) that encompasses numerous factors within it. Yes, in order for it to be "worth it" for people to leave the relative safety of the city and work the surrounding land, they must feel they are within controlled territory. However, I do not think that simple energy generators or wireless energy could be enough to determine which faction you work for. There comes a time when the energy supply of a base (such as when fusion power and whatnot becomes available) so far exceeds most tasks that it becomes ridiculous to base one's loyalty simply upon energy. Someone working in a greenhouse which only needs good recycling systems for air and water does not need the power of a thermonuclear weapon. Simple loyalty to one's society has to play some factor.

Culture is a concept which is able to take care of the ideas of people immigrating into a city and intermarrying, and is also able to factor in jealousies of people in run-down cities next to pinnacles of power. I feel that, while Planet is a much harsher place, that the mechanics of cultural boundaries can remain largely untouched within the context of Planetfall. We could just write some of these interesting concepts down into the Civilopedia article to give the player an idea of what we mean by culture. Sure, expansion should be harder than in Civ IV, but that doesn't mean we should throw it out the window, or replace it with a concept which is less meaningful, and does less justice to the actual aspects which determine cultural borders.

With that in mind, it should be harder to maintain peace with your immediate neighbors, especially if it is apparent that several of their cities are suddenly switching allegiances. In Civ, they don't really seem to care all that much.

Oh, and I also do really like the idea of having the mindworm towers be like "cities." However, I do not think it is appropriate for them to be able to take over any of my cities, or even raze them necessarily. The mechanic in SMAC, where they simply killed off a good bit of your population is good in my mind (but we could make it more drastic, like they would slaughter half or a quarter of the people within your base. But I was just not happy when a "Locust of Chiron" (a couple of bears) appeared out of nowhere after I had recently discovered how to plant a farm, and then razing one city and seizing my capital. We should really tie those suckers to Centauri Genetics.

I'd prefer to let locusts only appear after a certain Flowering Counter level is reached. Requires an SDK change though.

Regarding native life taking over bases. I was thinking, perhaps when taking a base, its population could be reduced to one (signifying all humans are dead), but the base would not be razed. Instead it would be considered infested by native life, fungal towers etc. Then you could still take back the base with some of its infrastructure/buildings intact.

If a (non-city) tile flips from one faction/empire to another, I've interpreted it not as people in the local area changing their minds on who to work for, but which people would have influence over the tile. If there's population displacement between the cities, it's because the gaining city now has one more source of food or health or happiness that the other city is (for now) forced to do without.

Of course, migration from one base (or faction) to another is probably worth considering. It might have requirements like the bases must be trade-linked, no more than two movement points away, and either in the same faction or between two factions that share an open borders treaty. The reason a unit of population might migrate from its home base to another is because either there isn't enough food, people are too sick, people are too angry, or the base is undefended and open to attack. At this point the population unit may choose the closest neighbor that is within range and can provide sufficient comfortable support. Still, the question remains on whether someone here would find coding such a model to be worthwhile.

As for the thing on locusts--As far as I understood it, Locusts of Chiron were actually a human creation. We were messing with the genome of mindworms and created something way more terrible. Planet thought this was a good idea and started making its own. I'm not sure if this is the "real reason," but I'd inferred it from the fact that Locusts of Chiron are available to build once Centauri Genetics is discovered, and native locusts show up a bit afterwards.

As for the population stuff I was talking about--I was meaning how the reason that cities flip or revolt in Civ IV is often because the city has only 33 percent population which is the nationality of the state of which it is a part. It doesn't have so much to do with how much better it is to live in the other city, as people in the smaller, less significant city have started idolizing the other culture. The idolized culture thinks this is awesome, and as a result, gets laid.

So I wasn't proposing a new mechanic, only another argument for keeping the current the default Civ IV mechanic, and perhaps just renaming it and doing slight tweaks.

Oh, and on the native lifeforms--I think if the base is of sufficient size, it should only lose a chunk of population, rather than be totally conquered, because at a certain point, I'm sure some of the population would stop wetting themselves and screaming and try to actually bring out the necessary torches and fight back. A whole lot of people would still die, but not everybody. Also, we have to be careful with the size 1 thing, because that might make it so that when you re-take the city, you simple obliterate it. And I imagine that after too many turns, it should be too late, and the city cannot be reclaimed, because Planet doesn't exactly care about whether it has the Human Genome Project or not. This could perhaps be partly simulated by having Planet dismantle an improvement every few turns until nothing is left. I don't know, we'd have to play with that for a while to get everything working nicely...

Agreed on the bit about native lifeforms being able to raze/conquer cities. We're talking about pretty much the exact opposite of barbarians here - barbarians, while they may not have an innate desire to settle down, still may choose to do so in a pre-existing city; for Planet's native life, it's actually a matter of restoring their native habitat. In :bts:, can animals actually conquer cities?

Also, I think I just had a brainstorm about the fungal-tower/native-culture thing: If it's possible, have all terrain-improvements generate a small amount of "native culture" (very small in the case of forests) to represent the slight increase in the fungus' aggression when terrain is improved, and have Tree Farms/Hybrid Forests generate either local culture or negative native culture, along with the various ecodamage-mitigating buildings. I'm sure I can think of something if that can't be done. :)

With that in mind, it should be harder to maintain peace with your immediate neighbors, especially if it is apparent that several of their cities are suddenly switching allegiances. In Civ, they don't really seem to care all that much.

I'd say, create a triggered event whenever a base flips, with choices like: Give them your blessing (+1 :) in all cities for 10 turns, +3 relations with rival), Ignore the situaion (+1 relations with rival), Denounce the base as traitorous (-1 relations with rival, +1 :mad: in all cities with rival's culture), Declare a crusade to reclaim the base (-3 relations with rival, +1 :mad: per population of rival's nationality or in all cities, immediate vendetta). Maybe even a choice that does something like giving you the city back with a huge happiness boost but making you their vassal.

Having improvements generate native culture is a very interesting idea--I wonder if it is possible to do, without having to place native "cities" (fungal towers) everywhere.