I assume that we're going to expand on the basic 3 bonus resources from SMAC. Any preferences and ideas?

From SotM:

Carbon
Carbon Ice
Hydrogen
Oxygen
Water
Helium 3
Nutrients
All sorts of metals
All sorts of gems, crystals

I'm assuming that wherever the factions land will have breathable air, but if not that's why I included the air elements.

I don't have Roanoke installed anymore to see what we had there.

I guess the first step should be is the air breathable, water drinkable, and fauna edible? If so then we can use native resources. If not then finding and converting elemental resources is the first priority to survival.

Any discussion on the resources I believe should also in some way tie in to whether or not we're looking for more of a specialist-driven game, as opposed to a tile-driven game (for the obvious reasons that this affects how the ties should use resources).

From Maniac's thread (emphasis mine)...

For that reason, I’d prefer hammers being almost exclusively provided by labourer specialists working in the base, and not from terrain yields or bonus resources. I’d also prefer a quantitive resource system, ie not uranium resource being sufficient to build nuclear plants in all your cities, but one uranium resource necessary for each nuclear plant you build. Also oil (besides giving energy) could not give minerals directly for instance, but eg reduce the cost of building recon rovers.

The possible uses of energy fit kinda well with what commerce is already for in vanilla civ4: city maintenance and unit maintenance. Base facility maintenance could be added back to the list. I’d prefer to make a distinction though between energy production and general GDP/commerce, which translates into labs production gamewise. Science production I would prefer to reserve mostly to specialists (so free market for instance could give +1 labs per specialists, not +1 energy on each square as in SMAC). A windmill produces energy, not labs.


In this idea, we have both science output and hammers being almost solely driven by specialists (although, technically, I could see the "worker" specialist being thought of as a default "worker" or drone). This leaves only nutrients and energy (if science output is split off of energy) to be the only resources left from SMAC. I guess what we're saying with this idea is, "Hey, it's a barren land, but it obviously has stuff that we can use to make our machines/computer/buildings/guns. Let's just remove HOW we get the materials from the equation, assume that we have plenty of resources to build stuff, and say that the more workers the faster things get done."

However, I think some people will find this icky. Three has always been the magic number of resources. Munchies/Material/Money, that's how it's always been, tried and true.

I'm really hit a wall for ideas here. I'd like to see a neat new concept that might deviate from the rule of three. The idea of making specialists more accountable for the output seems like a step in the right direction (so long as it doesn't add the need to micromanage the city.. if science is mostly coming from specialists, I don't want to have to make sure every time a city moves up in pop I convert the default specialist to a science specialist just to make sure I'm maximizing my science production. This might be able to be automated, though).

Edit Oh, you're talking about THOSE resources... well, I get this thread should discuss all forms of resources..

We can surely talk about all resources here. :)

I think we might all be in agreement about specialists and their role in producing hammers, food, science, or whatever.

I'm thinking that, for now, we stay at the basic three. Any more radical ideas we want to make we'll discuss and, if agreed upon, we'll make the change at that point. I've rethought my point about making the resource changes before starting into the "obvious" XML stuff (Factions, mainly).

As for strategic/bonus resources, I'm thinking of having strategic resources allow for certain special abilities for units. For example, one strategic resource, combined with the right tech, allows a special ability that allows units to create cloaking fields around them for up to X turns, before having to allow Y turns for their cloaking-field packs to "recharge". Another resource, combined with the right tech, might give the ability to give units +1 mobility. Yet another might allow units to have two abilities before Neural Grafting (or this mod's equivalent, if it exists). Obviously, this last one really doesn't take up an ability spot itself. That way, the advantage goes to the player that really does the best with what they're given.

There would have to be a bunch of play-testing to balance out the resources, I believe.

It would be nice to have strategic resources, but I can't think of any that fit in SMAC's world. Can you? :(

It would be nice to have strategic resources, but I can't think of any that fit in SMAC's world. Can you? :(

It's a whole new world, there's not any we can make up competely?

It would be nice to have strategic resources, but I can't think of any that fit in SMAC's world. Can you? :(

There could be Giant ostriches that could be tamed, new metals that yield better armor, crystals (lattice) to be used in beam weaponry, Si-based compounds for fuels. The possibilities are limitless since we aren't doing a clone.

Luxuries could be pure air, pure water, gems, lattice silk, artifacts, ect.

There could be Giant ostriches that could be tamed, new metals that yield better armor, crystals (lattice) to be used in beam weaponry, Si-based compounds for fuels. The possibilities are limitless since we aren't doing a clone.

Luxuries could be pure air, pure water, gems, lattice silk, artifacts, ect.

I'm definitely thinking that there can be elements that aren't known about (or can't grow) on Earth. That's the beauty of science fiction. :P

One example would be a certain type of chemical that replaces silicon and it resistant to EMP-style attacks (which, probably later in the game, would be less efficient due to the development of machines that are immune to EMP.

P.S. So apparently I don't have work today... I drove to work and no-one is there. Which is good, since I'm still sick :P

So basically we can discover resources to fill a need in the mod. If we need a luxury resource I'm sure we can discover one. ;)

And yeah, some people get a paid day off today. Not me, but no biggie.

new metals that yield better armor

Problem is the whole Table of Mendeleyev has already been discovered. Also thing is in a futuristic world with genetics and nanonics and all that stuff there are probably always alternatives for anything, meaning there wouldn't be any important "strategic" resources. Then again, I'm not really a hard science guy, so what the hell do I know?

Problem is the whole Table of Mendeleyev has already been discovered. Also thing is in a futuristic world with genetics and nanonics and all that stuff there are probably always alternatives for anything, meaning there wouldn't be any important "strategic" resources. Then again, I'm not really a hard science guy, so what the hell do I know?

Metals, perhaps. But use of metals to do strange, new things, doubtful. The metals can still be metals that we've come up with, but we'd still need them in order to facilitate the abilities that come with technology.

A certain crystal structure might be necessary in order to create the high-powered laser device for a certain +1 power ability, etc.

You always need raw materials for composites and alloys. I'm sure that there are new ones out there for discovery. Once we get to synthetics and nano stuff then the "natural" armors/ores will be less important.

I'm not a hard science guy, but I work in R&D.

You always need raw materials for composites and alloys. I'm sure that there are new onces out there for discovery. Once we get to synthetics and nano stuff then the "natural" armors/ores will be less important.

I'm not a hard science guy, but I work in R&D.

Someday you'll have to explain to me your concept of "work" :P

So what do we have so far?

Oil
Uranium
Metals
Fresh Water
Fungal Gin: luxury resource, revealed by some Centauri tech
Crystals: for lasers. If you don't have any on the map, they can be synthetically be created by some nanonics tech.
Helium: necessary for Zeppelin, an early exploration unit. Makes for better fusion power. If you don't have any on the map, go get some at the nearest gas giant.

I think we need some native game and edible fauna as well. I think we need artifacts. They could come in handy later on. Not network nodes, but archeological stuff.

Shouldn't artifacts come from unity pods?
Edit: Oh, that's probably what you were referring to by 'not network nodes'.

I'm thinking artifacts are stuff we find leftover from previous inhabitants. Why should the Unity be the first ship to crash here or the first people to live here?

Yeah I know. But don't you remember the alien artifacts from SMAC?
Or do you mean landmarks like the Borehole Cluster and the Manifold Nexus?

Landmarks are fine, but I'm speaking of an actual resource that could be worked call "Archeological Dig" that would give happiness or gold or something new.

We need Landmarks. Good call.

Perhaps approach this issue in two steps:

1) Use the 3 SMAC/X resources as simple tile modifiers. This allows for early (easy?) implementation and perhaps offering feature testing options.

2) Once we have a better grasp on the features and balance in the mod we should re-work the entire resource system to match our vision.

Some additional thoughts:

- Have variations of the 3 base resources. This could be used in different ways. For example, the Civ4 model where copper and iron (same resource "type") both confer a hammer bonus to the tile; have small/medium/large resources for different tile yields, or a full Civ4 system where each variant counts as a "special resource".

- Have fossil fuel resources that deplete after a set number of turns. This could add a starting boost or even be dependent on faction (e.g. Yang gets a hammer bonus, Morgan gets a commerce bonus, and Deirdre gets a happiness penalty). Boost resources could be tied to specific starting technologies (or technology paths) and may randomly appear later in the game (only to deplete after maybe 30 turns).

Some additional thoughts:

- Have variations of the 3 base resources. This could be used in different ways. For example, the Civ4 model where copper and iron (same resource "type") both confer a hammer bonus to the tile; have small/medium/large resources for different tile yields, or a full Civ4 system where each variant counts as a "special resource".

- Have fossil fuel resources that deplete after a set number of turns. This could add a starting boost or even be dependent on faction (e.g. Yang gets a hammer bonus, Morgan gets a commerce bonus, and Deirdre gets a happiness penalty). Boost resources could be tied to specific starting technologies (or technology paths) and may randomly appear later in the game (only to deplete after maybe 30 turns).

Really interesting the idea of a "penalty" for resources that other gain. I think I'm kinda liking the Civ-based resource bonuses/penalties. It would probably be a pain to balance, but hey, that's what playing the game is for!

I also just want to say that I've thought before about having a "surveying" unit that you could use to try to "find" some untapped resources, with a random chance of surveying and finding something. I'd also just like to say that I think that this is a boring idea, so if anyone else has it, you already know my opinion :P

Landmarks are fine, but I'm speaking of an actual resource that could be worked call "Archeological Dig" that would give happiness or gold or something new.

Another possible implementation:

It would be nice if the Progenitor-themed and Resonance techs weren't directly researchable the normal way, but instead a bonus from studying Progenitor artifacts. These Progenitor tech wouldn't be necessary to go up the tech tree, but perhaps an alternative to the classical Psi tech branch with some unique goodies, such as resonance lasers etc.

So how about an archeological artifact resource as you suggest, which doesn't provide a direct bonus, but which allows the construction of some Archeological Lab (one per artifact resource you own), which gives some Great People points for some GP which can only be lightbulbed to get some Progenitor techs (or perhaps upgraded to a Battle Ogre :cool: )?

Okay, the mechanic is a bit complex, but unfortunately I can't see another way to convert artifact sites into Progenitor techs.

Another possible implementation:

It would be nice if the Progenitor-themed and Resonance techs weren't directly researchable the normal way, but instead a bonus from studying Progenitor artifacts. These Progenitor tech wouldn't be necessary to go up the tech tree, but perhaps an alternative to the classical Psi tech branch with some unique goodies, such as resonance lasers etc.

So how about an archeological artifact resource as you suggest, which doesn't provide a direct bonus, but which allows the construction of some Archeological Lab (one per artifact resource you own), which gives some Great People points for some GP which can only be lightbulbed to get some Progenitor techs (or perhaps upgraded to a Battle Ogre :cool: )?

Okay, the mechanic is a bit complex, but unfortunately I can't see another way to convert artifact sites into Progenitor techs.

Maniac, this is a brilliant idea! Simply brilliant!

Maniac, this is a brilliant idea! Simply brilliant!

I second that.

If we want to add "rockiness" it might be possible via resources.

We need to make sure we can have multiple resources at a single tile, though. I don't know it that is possible. Alternatively we need to do 3 of each base resource (normal, rolling and rocky).

Or just merge two or three resource in a new one and make a specific improvement.

Would it be possible to do a resource prototype? Implement somthing like this:

Nutrient: +2 food
Energy: +2 commerce
Mineral: +2 hammer
Monolith: Negates tile output and provides +2/+2/+2; additionally, gives visiting unit +5 XP (only once per unit and no additional XP from other Monoliths).
Progenitor Artifact: Negates tile output and provides +5 energy. Acts as "tradeable" resource and allows for a Progenitor Lab as per Maniac's suggestion. (Lab could be powered by the resource... or something.)

Not to interrupt this train of thought Rubin, but your powered got me thinking about power. I never play Vanilla Civ4 long enough to use power, but are we going to use it here? Maybe for the Energy Grid somehow?

I'd like a Resource prototype as well.

But we are planning on using strategic and luxury in Planetfall, correct? Not just the big 3.

Add Cristals : +1 Commerce +1 Hammer

But we are planning on using strategic and luxury in Planetfall, correct? Not just the big 3.

I am undecided on this issue. However, there were some viable ideas at Apolyton on how strategic resources could be balanced--which is my main concern.

a food resource: Grenade Fruits. IIRC mentioned in the Ecological Engineering quote

Firaxians imagined unused fauna, shall they become resources ? It can be seen on official site.

Just a link back to 2005 when Maniac first called for scifi resources. ;)
http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=139856

It gives a few more ideas/hints.

I do have a question on the specialist thing tho: if only specialists in bases can give hammers/beakers/commerce, how do you represent a resource tile like aluminium/bauxiet being worked to gain the basic material so to speak?
Wouldn't it be better to let the resources handle the graphic representation of it being harvested, but the specialists are needed to produce the available production stuff? Like without an engineer the factories can't construct facilities/units, without a doctor units don't heal in bases and population is more sick/less healthy, without a shrink/entertainer people are less happy?

So I would say keep the mineral/nutrient/energy visual representation on the map, but let the type of specialist in a base enable how much of that raw income is diverted to production/food/money/research.
I suppose you need two different sets of icons then: the mineral/nutrient/energy icons "on the field" and beakers/hammers/coinage/bread icons on the cityscreen.

From rereading that thread, I guess "Rare DNA" or "Medicinal Flora" or something could be a resource which is revealed by Biogenetics and provides extra health with a Clinic and Research Hospital.

I don't think we're going through with the suggestion of splitting up raw materials and production power. I guess one could assume a mine already includes the human and robotic production capacity to convert the raw materials into a finished product. And that a specialist providing hammers represents an alternative production method for something which doesn't require the usual raw materials.

Neutronium for neutronium armor ?

What about Xenofungus ( Crimson ) providing energy via Cold Fusion process (cf. an early episode from Stargate-season 2).

Neutronium for neutronium armor ?

Neutronium wouldn't be found on a planet, its too dense a "material" for that. ;)

It is like Naquadah ? Only jaffa can carry then.

Neutronium is deteriorated matter so to speak, it can be obtained in the core of neutron stars and nowhere else.

Well...maybe an asteroid impacted the planet with some of this core? Now we have a Neutronium resource scattered about. Now that's sci-fi!

Asteroidal matter isn't dense enough to have neutronium in it. ;)
If neutronium is to be used as a resource, it is something that should be created in a linear accelerator, but not obtained in nature (on the map thus).

What about an asteroid made from the core of a star? That would be uncool to get hit by.

Such an object could never escape from its own gravity. :D

Dammit. We need something cool. While you're droning at work think about resources. :D

Don't worry, I'll brainstorm a few up. ;)

A follow up:
Looking into the Mendelev table, the following metals seem the minimum for a technological society to construct its tools of trade:
Iron
Copper
Aluminium
(Crystals?)
Silicon
Gold
Silver
Uranium
With these, one can made the alloys for the basics.
And I guess diamonds are still every colony girl's best friend. :mischief:

For food resources, personally I have a hard time believing that any type of native flora/fauna can be made edible for humans, my take on natural planet resources is that extractions of them might be good for medicines, or vitamines. So in this case we could just use any fluff from SMAC (like Razorbeaks, or glowmites, or fungalroots, or sandkrill and offer the player a benefit like QuickGene (quicker genetransplant integration), Interface Gel (to have a better interface between Mind and Machine), Psionic Enhancer (the native trait), cattle fodder for the time colonists breed their own cattle again in pasture domes or on the open surface.

I would suggest, linked with the discovery of genetic techs, that colonists are able to introduce first earth plants, and later cattle on Planet. So basically I endorse that plots don't have a :food: output on their own, whatever the level of rain. Only with tankfarms and Biogenetics would there be a reliable source of food available in the early decades. Also, I would go for a system in which earthlife must grow first before it reaches its full output, especially the fauna as to simulate the growing herds on this plot.

Okay, think this is enough of a read for now. :D

Someone is introducing a modcomp based on planting resources I think. This would be helpful to us I think. Link here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=213207).

First off: I think it is vital that a component which alters research speed based on available resources (TheLopez made one, I think) be present. Available samples of native flora and fauna should increase bio research, extensive availability of rare chemical elements should increase metallurgical research, and so on.

I am assuming a planet along the lines of the one seen in SMAC: The atmosphere is not perfect, but is close enough to earth's that a supplemental filter can be worn by colonists for safe travel outside, and environmental protective wear would be recommended but not needed. In addition, it has plenty of surface water (practically necessary, if the atmosphere is similar) and sports carbon-based life. This leaves a few things up in the air: For strategic resources, are there fossil fuels, and what is the mineral composition of the planet? For "Health" resources, just how much biodiversity are we dealing with? For "Happy" resources, just what is it about weird stuff you find on an alien planet that makes colonists happy enough to forget why you've just dumped half their population into the recycling tanks to get enough resources for that shiny new network node?

Strategic Resources: Representing individual elements may be out of character for both SMAC and science fiction in general: there are a lot more usable metals than can be reasonably implemented. Use broader categories as the resources:

-Heavy Metals - (Mostly base metals; metals that react easily with acids. Oxidizes and corrodes easily. Mainly Industrial applications for a space-age society...would be more important shortly after planetfall.)

-Light Metals - (Mostly noble metals; term to cover all the useful alloying materials...Aluminium, Titanium, precious metals. More important for High-Tech industry and applications, including weapons and armor.)

-Radioactives - (What it says on the tin. Uranium, Plutonium, :nuke: , that sort of thing. It's not just for primitive nuclear reactors during the initial years of planetfall: it's also vital for all that research into quantum mechanics, building supercolliders, you get the idea.)


-Hydrocarbons - (Is there going to be Oil in this? One of the things I liked about SMAC was the lack of fossil fuels on Planet...it was listed as one of the most important reasons that Energy replaced Precious Metals as a form of currency, I think. However, even without Petroleum, it would be reasonable to have sources of easily harvestable or processable hydrocarbons of less valuable nature. These could still be used as an inefficient economy fuel early on, or processed into Plastic-Like subtances with the right techs.)

-Silicates - (Earth has these in abundance, so such a resource isn't as important here. But if they were harder to come by on a different planet, they'd be very relevant for a science fiction scenario. Plenty of applications in construction, and ceramics [Ceramsteel Powered Armor...mmm], and Silicon has an obvious urgency for semiconductor/transistor technology. Can't have our formers and remotely operated machines running on vaccuum tubes, you know. If they are common, however [a more realistic situation], Silicates could be safely considered to fall under the "Light Metals" category, if need be.)

Health Resources: Obviously, the colonists aren't going to hop out of their rocketships and start chowing down on 6-legged alien sheep. Instead, native flora and fauna represent something entirely different: Medicine was already mentioned, and that's a part of it. But researching the native life, as in SMAC, should give the colonists an increasing understanding of how their presence impacts the local environment: what was safe to dump on earth might cause the local alien forests to degenerate and emit envirosuit-breaching toxins on the new planet.


-Flora - Interesting sessile lifeforms are good, and more likely to be used for food, if it were to come to that, since they're at the 'bottom' of the food chain. This can go in any direction. As for importing Earth crops: This should be represented by a farm. Just a farm. Colonists should be planting earth crops out there, not alien ones, and they're not going to be any healthier for doing so, nor do I think it will enchance the game to have them plant different varieties of earth crop. As biotech improves, the farms with earth crops gradually get up to speed and adapt to the new environment, with a little help from genetic modification and crossbreeding. I do agree that by default, terrain should produce little or nothing; to counter this early on, and provide an interesting starting game, the default "laborer" should provide one unit each of food, production, and commerce.
When and if it comes time to harvest alien flora, there should be a seperate improvement along the lines of a Plantation for resources, and a "different sort" of lumbermill for 'forests' and 'jungles': perhaps an improvement focused more on harvesting useful organic compounds for research or, if biotech has advanced enough, consumption.



-[U]Fauna - I think the best way to handle alien life forms is this: have basic lifeforms and a more advanced sort of lifeform. The advanced lifeform represents a permanent 'barbarian' threat, along the lines of mindworms. The basic lifeforms are the creatures that might be a danger early on, but not so much as the colonists gradually understand the new ecosystem. To this effect: All Fauna are barbarians at game start. After a certain level of biotech is reached, primitive animals become visible as resources, and once a higher level is reached, the "Basic" hostile lifeforms, the equivalent of Lions, Wolves, Panthers and Bears in vanilla Civ, vanish from the map and instead become useable resources. The advanced lifeform(s), whatever that is, remains a threat throughout the game.
I think its worth mentioning the Lalande scenario from Test of Time, which had a number of fairly creative native lifeforms...giant burrowing insects in salt flats, bear-like creatures that lived in acidic marshes; and going back to flora, the main method of early scientific advance was studying the dominant lifeform of the planet, a type of forest that routinely burned itself to the ground with fire-pod fruits, to enrich the soil for the next generation.


Luxury Resources: This seems like the area with the most possibilities for creative interpretation. Is there some amazing new narcotic that can be harvested for great happiness, but which will also turn your people into dunces? I do not think that any civ4 luxuries should be present...all the precious metals that are mined on the new planet will likely be going straight to industry and science. Flora and Fauna-based luxuries, yes, but there needs to be a plain and sensible reason. Colonists on another planet aren't going to be impressed by jewelry made from space-elephant tusks, but they might be impressed with a gland harvested from a space elephant that makes their synapses fire faster and extends their lifespan.

Neutronium is degenerate matter, like metallic hydrogen. It is super-dense, and is found in super-dense places. If that sort of thing is in the game, it will be produced in a lab environment, like Geomodder said. For asteroids dumping interesting metals on the planet: that is a very real possibility, the earliest examples of iron weaponry and tools on earth were constructed with meteoric iron, which was often an iron alloy, and thus was far more usable with the low metalworking technology of ancient times. Perhaps there are large groups of asteroids composed of platinum alloys in this new system? That's an exaggeration, but finding useful surface metal of that nature might make a solid Goodie Hut/Unity Pod event.

A follow up:
Looking into the Mendelev table, the following metals seem the minimum for a technological society to construct its tools of trade:

Yeah, but what gameplay effects will these have?

If a faction fails to link them up, they or won't be able to construct certain stuff, or constructing the stuff takes longer (meaning that having those "basic" resources linked up enables a player to construct in less turns a network node, a rover, an early secret project or two, stuff like that).
It's indeed not really necessary, and can be omitted but I have a hard time thinking of other "vital" metals which can't be switched by some other metal as well.
Perhaps GRM7584 idea to divide them in general classes has merit from this point of view.

I am assuming a planet along the lines of the one seen in SMAC: The atmosphere is not perfect, but is close enough to earth's that a supplemental filter can be worn by colonists for safe travel outside, and environmental protective wear would be recommended but not needed.


I kind of liked the idea of having the world start pretty inhospitable, but be able to terraform the planet (possibly using policies enacted in diplomacy) to eventually allow a more breathable system that allows for increased productivity. The Planeteer factions would probably vote it down.

For "Happy" resources, just what is it about weird stuff you find on an alien planet that makes colonists happy enough to forget why you've just dumped half their population into the recycling tanks to get enough resources for that shiny new network node?

All-natural soma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soma_%28Brave_New_World%29)?
:P

Strategic Resources

It seems that others have a pretty heightened grasp of metals and construction than I do, so I'm going to trust a lot of what's being said.

Health Resources: Obviously, the colonists aren't going to hop out of their rocketships and start chowing down on 6-legged alien sheep.


I smell an easter egg... :P

As for importing Earth crops: This should be represented by a farm. Just a farm. Colonists should be planting earth crops out there, not alien ones, and they're not going to be any healthier for doing so, nor do I think it will enchance the game to have them plant different varieties of earth crop.

...

When and if it comes time to harvest alien flora, there should be a seperate improvement along the lines of a Plantation for resources, and a "different sort" of lumbermill for 'forests' and 'jungles': perhaps an improvement focused more on harvesting useful organic compounds for research or, if biotech has advanced enough, consumption.


I'm thinking this is a "when". While I agree that having a player build improvements that just build carrots over green beens is overkill, I think that there should at least be the option to start "living off the native land". The idea of Planet defending itself (which has been discussed before) from threats in this light could be how the food is foraged. One improvement might be more Planet-friendly than another, although would have other disadvantages.

I can't find the post, but one thing mentioned was that in order to achieve a "don't piss off planet" vibe, there could be a few different types of natural Flora, some bad (poisonous, probably would lower health for the plot, among other things), some good (+ health or + food). You can always plant good flora, assuming you have the right setup, but flora can spawn near your base or spread (similar to forests in Civ4), and will be "good" or "bad" depending on how planet-friendly you have been thus far.


-Fauna - I think the best way to handle alien life forms is this: have basic lifeforms and a more advanced sort of lifeform. The advanced lifeform represents a permanent 'barbarian' threat, along the lines of mindworms. The basic lifeforms are the creatures that might be a danger early on, but not so much as the colonists gradually understand the new ecosystem. To this effect: All Fauna are barbarians at game start. After a certain level of biotech is reached, primitive animals become visible as resources, and once a higher level is reached, the "Basic" hostile lifeforms, the equivalent of Lions, Wolves, Panthers and Bears in vanilla Civ, vanish from the map and instead become useable resources. The advanced lifeform(s), whatever that is, remains a threat throughout the game.
I think its worth mentioning the Lalande scenario from Test of Time, which had a number of fairly creative native lifeforms...giant burrowing insects in salt flats, bear-like creatures that lived in acidic marshes; and going back to flora, the main method of early scientific advance was studying the dominant lifeform of the planet, a type of forest that routinely burned itself to the ground with fire-pod fruits, to enrich the soil for the next generation.


Perhaps you can take a look at my post here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5217579&postcount=27)regarding NLF (Native Life Forms). It's by no means what we're doing, in fact no one really has commented on it, just something I'm particularly fond of. I'm sure it could go along with your idea here.

I'm sure that more fun than seeing these creative life forms is being able to control them!



Luxury Resources: This seems like the area with the most possibilities for creative interpretation. Is there some amazing new narcotic that can be harvested for great happiness, but which will also turn your people into dunces? I do not think that any civ4 luxuries should be present...all the precious metals that are mined on the new planet will likely be going straight to industry and science.

Flora and Fauna-based luxuries, yes, but there needs to be a plain and sensible reason. Colonists on another planet aren't going to be impressed by jewelry made from space-elephant tusks, but they might be impressed with a gland harvested from a space elephant that makes their synapses fire faster and extends their lifespan.


I think most of what we consider to be "precious" is so because of the way we define precious. Shiny objects will get more attention, but why are diamonds so amazingly popular and expensive. Sure, they're shiny, but I think it has more to do with marketing :P

When colonists arrive at a new planet, I'm sure that there would be a bunch of different items that, given a different set of scenarios, would become popular or not, even though they're the same items. A metal object that glows different colors might be great for creating atmosphere at home like a lava-lamp, or it could viewed as a frightening object of impending doom.

Basically, I think we could really come up with anything, and so long as we can sell it to the players, then it's possible that those who colonize Planet would be able to sell it to the colonists.

Neutronium is degenerate matter, like metallic hydrogen. It is super-dense, and is found in super-dense places. If that sort of thing is in the game, it will be produced in a lab environment, like Geomodder said. For asteroids dumping interesting metals on the planet: that is a very real possibility, the earliest examples of iron weaponry and tools on earth were constructed with meteoric iron, which was often an iron alloy, and thus was far more usable with the low metalworking technology of ancient times. Perhaps there are large groups of asteroids composed of platinum alloys in this new system? That's an exaggeration, but finding useful surface metal of that nature might make a solid Goodie Hut/Unity Pod event.

A unity pod would be the obvious replacement for goodie huts, but I think that impact craters could work too. The graphics might be a bit strange, but the gameplay would work out. Perhaps impact craters show where future resources may lie, providing players a reason for developing near them, similar to how players tend to develop near a mountain thinking that there's a possibility of finding iron when they gain the necessary resource? I really can't tell if this would be a good thing or a bad thing, which I would lead to believe that it's probably a bad thing, but I thought I'd throw it out there anyway.

I like your thinking. I'm not sure I have the mind capable of coming up with the actual names or definitions, but if you have any ideas on how the resource system might be modified slightly from Civ4, feel free to talk about them. Say if something works neat in your head, but would require strategic resources to work differently, it can be arranged.

I kind of liked the idea of having the world start pretty inhospitable, but be able to terraform the planet (possibly using policies enacted in diplomacy) to eventually allow a more breathable system that allows for increased productivity. The Planeteer factions would probably vote it down.


I did like the planetary 'terraforming' options in SMAC's diplo assembly...Launch Solar Shade or Heat Ice Caps. If those could be implemented, it would open up other possibilities, with varying effects on planet's environment, and appropriate "Ecology" flavor that encouraged or discouraged different factions in their votes (Fungicide Ban [Prevents application of Fungicide promotion for formers, prevents existing promotions from functioning], Fungus Preservation Laws [Prevents "Remove Fungus" mission for any tile that is touching less than 4 other fungus tiles], Nano Enrichment [begins a planet-wide program of altering soil chemistry towards terran norms with nanites, increasing all food yields and forest spread while seriuosly miffing the ecology], and so on)


It seems that others have a pretty heightened grasp of metals and construction than I do, so I'm going to trust a lot of what's being said.


My metallurgical knowledge is limited to internet sources; but for a science fiction scenario it feels wrong to be element-specific. What about Beryllium? That's used in significant amounts, in numerous applications from telecommunications to aerospace, but it probably wouldn't make a list of specific elements to use as strategic resources. A big part of this is players would say "Beryllium....how am I supposed to know what to use *that* for?", and have to run to the SMACopedia to read a paragraph on how awesome Beryllium is and why they need it to build their flechette defense system.


I smell an easter egg... :P


Blame woodelf for the 6-legged sheep comment, it's from that Mindworm tube building graphic thread.


I'm thinking this is a "when". While I agree that having a player build improvements that just build carrots over green beens is overkill, I think that there should at least be the option to start "living off the native land". The idea of Planet defending itself (which has been discussed before) from threats in this light could be how the food is foraged. One improvement might be more Planet-friendly than another, although would have other disadvantages.

I can't find the post, but one thing mentioned was that in order to achieve a "don't piss off planet" vibe, there could be a few different types of natural Flora, some bad (poisonous, probably would lower health for the plot, among other things), some good (+ health or + food). You can always plant good flora, assuming you have the right setup, but flora can spawn near your base or spread (similar to forests in Civ4), and will be "good" or "bad" depending on how planet-friendly you have been thus far.


Innately hostile plant life sounds interesting, and I quite like the fungus mechanic in SMAC. It's nasty when you start, but one possible path of exploitation is to increase your PLANET rating and head for techs that improve yields in the Fungus, even planting fungus to take advantage of this. In that, I see what you mean, but I think that the very act of planting "good" flora over "bad" flora should piss off the ecology, since you're fiddling with the balance. Perhaps it would be less of an effect than building farms with Terran flora/fauna in them.
It might do to set out several paths for the player, with some intermingling: Terraforming, Hybridizing, and Adapting. You can Terraform things towards Earth, along the lines of Farms/Condensors/Mirrors/Boreholes from SMAC, which really screws with the ecology but has big rewards. You can Hybridize and engineer terran flora and fauna with alien flora and fauna to create a middle ground, which is reflected in a "tree farm" sort of economy seen in SMAC, but which would also include farms, or making hostile resources less hostile. You can also Adapt your own colonists to live off native life, IE the aforementioned fungus path.


I'm sure that more fun than seeing these creative life forms is being able to control them!


Absolutely, and I probably should have included that. Later technologies would allow for those nasty barbarians from early game to be homegrown as tame military units with later biotech.



Basically, I think we could really come up with anything, and so long as we can sell it to the players, then it's possible that those who colonize Planet would be able to sell it to the colonists.


That's the creative possibilities part, and it's wide open. The Glowrocks thing reminds me of the notion of the modern fad; in the same way that Ivory and Fur are obsoleted by later manufacturing technologies in vanilla Civ, perhaps some luxuries could be "Fad Items", useful for a certain amount of time before falling out of favor. One might go so far as to make "fad luxuries" into its own mechanic...every time a new social technology is discovered for the first time, a new resource is picked as a fad luxury and an old resource is phased out as a fad luxury, while the underlying uses for the resources still apply. Sure, Razorbeaks can be fun pets, but they are SOOOO last cycle.


A unity pod would be the obvious replacement for goodie huts, but I think that impact craters could work too. The graphics might be a bit strange, but the gameplay would work out. Perhaps impact craters show where future resources may lie, providing players a reason for developing near them, similar to how players tend to develop near a mountain thinking that there's a possibility of finding iron when they gain the necessary resource? I really can't tell if this would be a good thing or a bad thing, which I would lead to believe that it's probably a bad thing, but I thought I'd throw it out there anyway.


Civ's default city recommendation system (Blue circles indicating where an AI would prioritize settlement) already seems to take into account invisible resources, so it does seem to be sensible to me to create something to show that there will be a resource there one day. I don't know if that something should always be an impact crater, though, as I would imagine the "material" resources as being visible practically from the start, with only the "Living" commodities as requiring research to properly use.

The impact crater does sound interesting in terms of having a "different" graphic for unity pods that aren't actually unity pods...SMAC liked to throw little weird anomalies instead of the expected unity pod at you. Oh, we thought it was a unity pod, and it totally looked like one from a distance, but its actually an alien artifact/warp rift/nest of mind worms. Different graphics for different exploration possibilities would be nice (One possible result of 'exploring' an impact crater might be "There are a higher quantity of Heavy Metals in this impact site than orbital prospecting indicated; a new resource has been discovered!").


I like your thinking. I'm not sure I have the mind capable of coming up with the actual names or definitions, but if you have any ideas on how the resource system might be modified slightly from Civ4, feel free to talk about them. Say if something works neat in your head, but would require strategic resources to work differently, it can be arranged.


I think Civ4 already has most of the necessary systems in place for use of resources; if anything, what needs tweaking is the Strategic Resource system, in which one copper resource supplies an infinite number of Axemen. There are already a lot of modcomps out that can help that. I think the best approach with strategic resources in relation to units is this: They do not relate to units. Instead, tie them exclusively with buildings. Factories are more efficient with a source of Heavy Metals, allowing you to produce more. You can already do this with existing XML tags, thanks to the Ironworks. In addition, more complex units should require manufacturing infrastructure; a size one base with no buildings shouldn't be producing a top-of-the-line Needlejet, no matter how many turns it takes. Instead, have certain types of units require buildings, in the same manner of FFH, or at least have them dramatically easier to churn out given those buildings. A step further would be giving buildings a UnitDomain-specific production modifier tag, as well as a UnitDomain-specific resource production modifier tag.



Here's an example of how all that comes together. The Hive has access to Heavy Metals and Light Metals. They are going to build a Robotic Assembly Plant, which, once completed, will receive production bonuses from both Heavy Metal and Light Metal resources. Next, they're going to pump out a Needlejet, which requires at least 1 of X different possible facilities (lets say an Aerospace Complex, Robotic Assembly Plant, and Nanoreplicator...since it has one, it can be built, although it would receive additional benefits from other buildings). The Needlejet doesn't itself require Heavy Metals or Light Metals, but it is built faster because the Assembly Plant is supplied with them. Let's say that Yang built an Aerospace complex instead of the Assembly Plant. The Aerospace complex in this example wouldn't provide a "generic" production bonus for both types of metals, but instead would provide an Air Domain specific construction bonus when supplied with Light Metals; and a much higher bonus at that. The Needlejet builds much faster under such circumstances, because the facility is more specialized. In this situation, the Aerospace applications of Light Metals as opposed to Heavy Metals are represented in tradeoffs between buildings, rather than simply saying "This unit needs this resource, or you can't build it."


A simpler alternative, and one which is tossed around a lot (I saw some threads on apolyton to the effect), is to make strategic resources increase the speed with which units are built. It might be a more viable, albeit (from my perspective) less interesting approach.

In EITHER approach, strategic resources do not represent the only source of something: rather, they represent a region in which that resource is easily accessible or of exceptional quality. They should under no circumstances prevent a faction from building something, as that definitely goes against the character of a SMAC sort of mod.

I did like the planetary 'terraforming' options in SMAC's diplo assembly...Launch Solar Shade or Heat Ice Caps. If those could be implemented, it would open up other possibilities, with varying effects on planet's environment, and appropriate "Ecology" flavor that encouraged or discouraged different factions in their votes (Fungicide Ban [Prevents application of Fungicide promotion for formers, prevents existing promotions from functioning], Fungus Preservation Laws [Prevents "Remove Fungus" mission for any tile that is touching less than 4 other fungus tiles], Nano Enrichment [begins a planet-wide program of altering soil chemistry towards terran norms with nanites, increasing all food yields and forest spread while seriuosly miffing the ecology], and so on)



These could all be done, but since they're related to diplomacy, I'm probably going to try to keep it in mind for later, since it would be a big change.



Innately hostile plant life sounds interesting, and I quite like the fungus mechanic in SMAC. It's nasty when you start, but one possible path of exploitation is to increase your PLANET rating and head for techs that improve yields in the Fungus, even planting fungus to take advantage of this. In that, I see what you mean, but I think that the very act of planting "good" flora over "bad" flora should piss off the ecology, since you're fiddling with the balance. Perhaps it would be less of an effect than building farms with Terran flora/fauna in them.


I think we were only really thinking being able to plant good fungus. Bad fungus is just something that pops up, and if you don't mess with it, it will become good after awhile.


It might do to set out several paths for the player, with some intermingling: Terraforming, Hybridizing, and Adapting. You can Terraform things towards Earth, along the lines of Farms/Condensors/Mirrors/Boreholes from SMAC, which really screws with the ecology but has big rewards. You can Hybridize and engineer terran flora and fauna with alien flora and fauna to create a middle ground, which is reflected in a "tree farm" sort of economy seen in SMAC, but which would also include farms, or making hostile resources less hostile. You can also Adapt your own colonists to live off native life, IE the aforementioned fungus path.


And I think a lot of this could be wrapped into the concept of each player's Planet rating (whether it is a visible number or something that is kept track of in the SDK but not shown to the player), which is lowered/heightened through using Civics, creating eco-friendly/hazardous buildings and improvements, etc.), and also could do a part of the global Planet rating (similar to FFH's "Armageddon counter").



That's the creative possibilities part, and it's wide open. The Glowrocks thing reminds me of the notion of the modern fad; in the same way that Ivory and Fur are obsoleted by later manufacturing technologies in vanilla Civ, perhaps some luxuries could be "Fad Items", useful for a certain amount of time before falling out of favor. One might go so far as to make "fad luxuries" into its own mechanic...every time a new social technology is discovered for the first time, a new resource is picked as a fad luxury and an old resource is phased out as a fad luxury, while the underlying uses for the resources still apply. Sure, Razorbeaks can be fun pets, but they are SOOOO last cycle.


I think that's a neat idea. I'm not sure how well it would fit into the idea of creating a SMAC world. Perhaps it's just me thinking that a future civilization would probably be above consumerism :P



Civ's default city recommendation system (Blue circles indicating where an AI would prioritize settlement) already seems to take into account invisible resources, so it does seem to be sensible to me to create something to show that there will be a resource there one day.

Actually, it doesn't. The only thing it will "cheat" on is if the tile itself has a bonus. When the player or ai is searching for a spot can see it or not, it looks at the surrounding plots of the tile it's checking for but only takes bonuses into account if it can currently see it. So, it doesn't take into account bonuses that the player can't see except for that one center plot it's checking.


I don't know if that something should always be an impact crater, though, as I would imagine the "material" resources as being visible practically from the start, with only the "Living" commodities as requiring research to properly use.

The impact crater does sound interesting in terms of having a "different" graphic for unity pods that aren't actually unity pods...SMAC liked to throw little weird anomalies instead of the expected unity pod at you. Oh, we thought it was a unity pod, and it totally looked like one from a distance, but its actually an alien artifact/warp rift/nest of mind worms. Different graphics for different exploration possibilities would be nice (One possible result of 'exploring' an impact crater might be "There are a higher quantity of Heavy Metals in this impact site than orbital prospecting indicated; a new resource has been discovered!").


That's true enough. SMAC even had that where a unity pod might form a resource after hitting it. Would sure give another reason to explore first. I could also imagine impact craters being at the bottom of oceans as well. That would save us from having to think of how to get the graphics embedded into the ground, unless of course the water runs out. :P



I think Civ4 already has most of the necessary systems in place for use of resources; if anything, what needs tweaking is the Strategic Resource system, in which one copper resource supplies an infinite number of Axemen. There are already a lot of modcomps out that can help that. I think the best approach with strategic resources in relation to units is this: They do not relate to units. Instead, tie them exclusively with buildings. Factories are more efficient with a source of Heavy Metals, allowing you to produce more. You can already do this with existing XML tags, thanks to the Ironworks. In addition, more complex units should require manufacturing infrastructure; a size one base with no buildings shouldn't be producing a top-of-the-line Needlejet, no matter how many turns it takes. Instead, have certain types of units require buildings, in the same manner of FFH, or at least have them dramatically easier to churn out given those buildings. A step further would be giving buildings a UnitDomain-specific production modifier tag, as well as a UnitDomain-specific resource production modifier tag.



That all looks good to me. This could also be interesting from the NLF's as combat units perspective. If we used a sort of evolution-tree, players creating an all-NLF army could forgo the need to create large buildings to create higher-up units, which would give us leeway to allow some penalties for Planet players who don't get their daily recommended amount of planet-destroying manufacturing power :P



A simpler alternative, and one which is tossed around a lot (I saw some threads on apolyton to the effect), is to make strategic resources increase the speed with which units are built. It might be a more viable, albeit (from my perspective) less interesting approach.


I like the first idea better, which is strange since I would think I would go for the simpler approach here. The reason is because in order to get a bonus, you need the bonus AND the building to process the bonus into something useful.

If I read this correctly, heavy metals would be used (with other buildings) to increase ground force productivity (perhaps submersible sea units as well?) and light metals would be used for air and, I would assume, sea. Just for my own curiosity, what type of metals would be better for out-of-the-atmosphere ships?



In EITHER approach, strategic resources do not represent the only source of something: rather, they represent a region in which that resource is easily accessible or of exceptional quality. They should under no circumstances prevent a faction from building something, as that definitely goes against the character of a SMAC sort of mod.

I'm not sure how it goes against the character of a SMAC sort of mod, but I agree with the idea anyway.

I think we were only really thinking being able to plant good fungus. Bad fungus is just something that pops up, and if you don't mess with it, it will become good after awhile.

I thought you had meant specific sorts of resources; I do like the idea of an "avenging fungus" being different than normal fungus, and it fits well.


And I think a lot of this could be wrapped into the concept of each player's Planet rating (whether it is a visible number or something that is kept track of in the SDK but not shown to the player), which is lowered/heightened through using Civics, creating eco-friendly/hazardous buildings and improvements, etc.), and also could do a part of the global Planet rating (similar to FFH's "Armageddon counter").


Increasing the Flowering Counter idea to represent planetwide terraforming decisions would be a great implementation of their effect on the environment. Connecting Planet Rating not only to fungus and worms but to other improvements would be very interesting, and I think a related possibility is a slight retooling of the Planet and Industry Ratings. A negative planet rating would represent an attitude of "We're terraforming this land to be like Earth." instead of an attitude of "We're polluting and don't really care.", as it is represented in SMAC. What this would also mean is that having a negative Planet rating would improve a player's ability to terraform.
A positive planet rating would signify "We're learning to live in harmony with Planet as it is." How this relates to the Industry trait: A positive Industry rating, in addition to providing more production, would cause more pollution. Thus, while a positive Planet rating will have a strong mediating effect on a positive industry rating's pollution (due to restraints and understanding of the ecology), having a negative Planet rating *and* a positive Industry rating could cause serious ecological damage, between the pollution and the terraforming.
So: A "Terraformer" player will want a low Planet rating for their purposes since they're going to be clearing out all that fungus anyhow, an "Adapter" player will want a high Planet rating for their purposes, and a "Hybrid" player will want something in between, since they're still improving land and terraforming (planting forests and farms), but at the same time they aren't as well equipped as the terraformer to fend off angry fungus, and thus can't afford it. Oddly enough, this has a lot of parallels to FFH's Good/Neutral/Evil system in regards to the counter's effects, and the creeping "hell territory" that the neutrals can't defend against.
Some of this won't work out quite so swell depending on how you deal with civics and social engineering, but that has its own thread I see ;)


I think that's a neat idea. I'm not sure how well it would fit into the idea of creating a SMAC world. Perhaps it's just me thinking that a future civilization would probably be above consumerism :P


Part of it struck me because I remembered some of the flavor text in a late-game interlude in SMAC, talking about a new dance fad sweeping the faction where people mime clawing at their eyes to simulate the motions seen by victims in a mindworm attack. And I certainly hope the Morganites aren't above consumerism...their whole faction is based on it! If a fad luxury system were implemented, one of the Morganite's special traits would be that they received double benefits from fad luxuries.


That's true enough. SMAC even had that where a unity pod might form a resource after hitting it. Would sure give another reason to explore first. I could also imagine impact craters being at the bottom of oceans as well. That would save us from having to think of how to get the graphics embedded into the ground, unless of course the water runs out. :P


Undersea discoveries? That would make the discovery of Deep Pressure Hulls a sort of exploration renaissance, as factions sent new Undersea Explorers to find all the neat impact craters on the ocean floor.


That all looks good to me. This could also be interesting from the NLF's as combat units perspective. If we used a sort of evolution-tree, players creating an all-NLF army could forgo the need to create large buildings to create higher-up units, which would give us leeway to allow some penalties for Planet players who don't get their daily recommended amount of planet-destroying manufacturing power :P


An NLF-reliant faction would also likely receive production and morale bonuses based more on their planet rating and the flowering counter, as was mentioned in that thread you linked...there is also FFH's mechanic for vampires feeding on populations to gain XP. Mindworms lay eggs when they burrow into people's brains, so perhaps an NLF army could "draft" units out of the citizenry, with better results when there are brood pits/bio labs/etc available, so that NLF users can use their buildings for more than just lifeform production bonuses.

-1 :mad: "Stop eating us!"


If I read this correctly, heavy metals would be used (with other buildings) to increase ground force productivity (perhaps submersible sea units as well?) and light metals would be used for air and, I would assume, sea. Just for my own curiosity, what type of metals would be better for out-of-the-atmosphere ships?


Heavy Metals would be mostly useful for buildings that provide "Generic Production", since they have a lot of industrial and construction applications but aren't favorable for modern "units" in a civ sense. They could also be used for any appropriately Heavy Unit, that could afford a lot of mass to compensate for 'weaker' armor, in exchange for cheaper costs; battleships come to mind.

Light Metals would be useful for any units, but it would provide the biggest bonuses for Aerospace and High Tech Manufacturing applications. So, a light, technologically advanced watercraft could benefit from them, but a hulking cruiser less so.

Radioactives are another key issue: they're vital for the Reactors that every unit uses in SMAC. So, it might make sense to add an additional XML tag for the building scheme: One which first checks for the presence of another building before applying its bonuses. I'll provide an example.


Zakharov wants to build a Cruiser using the latest and greatest technology out there, and an economical submarine. The units would look like this, in relation to resources and domain/etc:

Advanced Cruiser
-Domain: Naval
-Type: Cruiser
-Cost: 1500 Production
-Bonus Production Buildings (Needs one of these buildings to be produced effectively, although having more than one improves speed): Robotic Assembly Plant, Nanoreplicator, Naval Yard
-Dependent Production Buildings (When a Production Building is present, these buildings will increase build speed): Reactor Lab, Hi-Tech Lab

Basic Submersible
-Domain: Naval
-Type: Submarine
-Cost: 500 Production
-Bonus Production Buildings (Needs one of these buildings to be produced effectively, although having more than one improves speed): Robotic Assembly Plant, Nanoreplicator, Naval Yard
-Dependent Production Buildings (When a Production Building is present, these buildings will increase build speed): Reactor Lab

Now, a rundown of how all those buildings might affect production:

Generic Factories:
-Robotic Assembly Plant: +10% Production, +30% Production with Heavy Metal, +20% Production with Light Metal
-Nanoreplicator: +20% Production, +20% Production with Heavy Metal, +30% Production with Light Metal

Unit Factory:
-Naval Yard: +50% Naval Domain Production, +100% Naval Domain production with Heavy Metal

Special Facilities:
-Reactor Lab: +10% Unit Production, +25% Unit Production with Radioactives (Needs Factory)
-Hi-Tech Lab: +10% Unit Production, +25% Advanced Unit Production with Light Metals (Needs Factory)

SO:
The generic factories are there to produce anything and everything your colony needs. Those bonuses go to buildings, wonders, units, whatever. They specify which units that they will 'allow' construction of with something like <AllowedUnits>, in the same way that FFH buildings allow units to be built. They are versatile, but when compared to the domain-specific manufacturing facility, they fall well short of the mark.
The domain-specific factory, the naval yard in this case, specifies which units it allows construction of (in this case, *just* naval units, using the aforementioned tag), and also provides a hefty bonus to their assembly, with and without the "navy" flavored resource, Heavy Metals, although it does better with.
The "Special" facilities (forgive their generic names) are buildings that aren't intended to assemble units, but which can contribute to them *IF* such buildings are around. Instead of having the buildings specify the units they can build (since they can't), units would instead specify the "special facilities" that could help in their construction with something like <ProductionModifierBuildings>. The Reactor Lab would create the necessary power plants for the vessels faster than they would in the previously listed factories, freeing factory space up for speedier processing; more so if it is readily supplied with the necessary radioactives. Meanwhile, the Hi-Tech Lab would be useful only for building technologically advanced units, like the Advanced Cruiser of this example, and would only benefit from being supplied with Light Metals.

Result of all *THAT*:
-All units can benefit from factories supplied with Heavy and Light Metals.
-All units can benefit from Reactor Labs supplied with Radioactives, but only if a factory is around to help build those units.
-Naval units benefit most from Naval Yards supplied with Heavy Metals.
-The Advanced Cruiser potentially stands to benefit more from Light Metals than the Basic Submersible, because the Advanced Cruiser specifies the "Hi-Tech Lab" as a bonus production facility.


It looks more complex than it is, but it may be too much for a casual player to swallow. I'm obviously biased, since its coming from me.


I'm not sure how it goes against the character of a SMAC sort of mod, but I agree with the idea anyway.

SMAC didn't have any resources; it usually mentioned a *lack* of resources, and the need for artificial workarounds. Maybe I'm just stuck on the artificial fossil fuels thing. A SMAC mod using civ 4's resource system should, in my eyes, only allow resources to influence a faction's decisions on what to build, rather than determining them outright, as it is in vanilla civ.

A positive planet rating would signify "We're learning to live in harmony with Planet as it is." How this relates to the Industry trait: A positive Industry rating, in addition to providing more production, would cause more pollution. Thus, while a positive Planet rating will have a strong mediating effect on a positive industry rating's pollution (due to restraints and understanding of the ecology), having a negative Planet rating *and* a positive Industry rating could cause serious ecological damage, between the pollution and the terraforming.


This could work out. If we go with the Social Engineering, we'd have to redefine these two well, or it might cause confusion for former SMAC players. If we go with Civics, then we wouldn't have much of a problem: Somewhere (on the main screen, in city screens, in a "Planet" screen..) we'll have a little tidbit about how the player's Planet score is doing, and more importantly, what that means.

So: A "Terraformer" player will want a low Planet rating for their purposes since they're going to be clearing out all that fungus anyhow, an "Adapter" player will want a high Planet rating for their purposes, and a "Hybrid" player will want something in between, since they're still improving land and terraforming (planting forests and farms), but at the same time they aren't as well equipped as the terraformer to fend off angry fungus, and thus can't afford it.

I'm not sure about this. I would think that doing things that are related to Terraforming Planet to be more like Earth would affect your points, not the other way around. Unless you're saying a revolving system, where the more you terraform, the lower your score, and thus the more you can terraform?


Undersea discoveries? That would make the discovery of Deep Pressure Hulls a sort of exploration renaissance, as factions sent new Undersea Explorers to find all the neat impact craters on the ocean floor.

I've never really liked the idea of having to find new bonuses. So, if anything, this would probably just make resources that appeared on the bottom show up. Which means they would act more like resources than underwater goodie-huts.



An NLF-reliant faction would also likely receive production and morale bonuses based more on their planet rating and the flowering counter, as was mentioned in that thread you linked...there is also FFH's mechanic for vampires feeding on populations to gain XP. Mindworms lay eggs when they burrow into people's brains, so perhaps an NLF army could "draft" units out of the citizenry, with better results when there are brood pits/bio labs/etc available, so that NLF users can use their buildings for more than just lifeform production bonuses.

-1 :mad: "Stop eating us!"



If I understand you correctly, a citizen drafted in a city for a Planeteer could actually be fed to the NLF's to help them grow? I would implement this just to see that mad message :P

Alternatively, some Planet bonuses could be used as production factories similar to the metals idea, but with medicinal or horomonal growth uses for "Planet Resources". While the Metals Resources are specific to typical units, the Planet resources are specific to planet units.


So, it might make sense to add an additional XML tag for the building scheme: One which first checks for the presence of another building before applying its bonuses.


Not sure what you mean here. What is the "other" building to check for? If I recall correctly, you would make the bonuses cumulative.

The "Special" facilities (forgive their generic names)

No problem, I've already labeled Special Abilities and Special Damage Types :P

Instead of having the buildings specify the units they can build (since they can't), units would instead specify the "special facilities" that could help in their construction with something like <ProductionModifierBuildings>.


I believe what you're saying is that we can't put Unit references in the Buildings XML because Units are loaded after buildings. We could always use UnitClasses instead, which is loaded before buildings. However, I think in this case it's actually better to put the buildings that the unit's production is affected by actually in the Unit XML anyway.

It looks more complex than it is, but it may be too much for a casual player to swallow. I'm obviously biased, since its coming from me.

I think that with some touching up and simplifying it down to just a few rules, it wouldn't be to bad. For example, when describing the effects, I think it would be ok to not have to differentiate between "Generic Buildings" and "Specialized buildings". Perhaps just be able to say each unit's production effectiveness is increased depending on the power of the buildings in the city that can affect it, and that the power of the buildings in the city are increased depending on the resources connected to it.

However, this would provide complex combinations to be formed. In your example, some buildings get better bonuses from Heavy metals, while others get better from Light metals, still more get their best bonuses from Radioactives. Perhaps if there were a way of simplifying this, such as having the different domains have their own group of buildings. Each group would have (with much better names, of course) a normal, a secondary, and an advanced building. Using completely unsmac-ified naming conventions, 'cuz I'm not good at stuff like that...


Ground Units

Normal Barracks
Secondary Barracks
Advanced Barracks

Sea Units

Normal Harbor
Secondary Harbor
Advanced Harmor



The idea is that if you understand how what type of resource is needed to make "Normal Barracks" production best accelerated, you'll know what resource is needed to make "Normal Harbor" buildings best accelerated.

Of course, this would severely cut down on our ability to tweak it to our wants, and I'm sure no-one would agree on the naming conventions. However, I believe that one of the things that SMAC got wrong (and so did a lot of other sci-fi items) is that the names didn't adequately tell us what it was describing in many cases. I'm not recommending we use "Normal", "Secondary", and "Advanced", but if we come up with a convention that can give players a hint as to how to best run that building, we would cut the amount that the player would have to learn to just one domain and the others would follow suit.

Now, I don't have any problem with making them all separate. After all, I think as a SMAC mod we're not looking for the recently-converted RTS crowd. This is just another option that I feel responsible to throw onto the table :P




Finally, I'm still split about whether or not this idea would benefit from limiting completely unit production to only cities with necessary buildings (in other words, enforcing building prereqs for units). On one hand, it makes sense that a new city shouldn't be able to start building hyper-advanced needlejets, on the other hand I would think that the need for resources and the production speed enhancing buildings (plus the fact that I don't think I've ever had to complain about new cities building large units too fast ;P) would be enough to simulate that effect, without having to go so far as to actually force a player to make the building. Especially since I imagine a role for tactical bombing, where you can possibly take out a certain building of a city. Take out the one needed to build the unit, and although you have a full infrastructure for producing the unit, you just don't have the data for the blueprints in the building that just was bombed, so you're completely stuck. I think we should avoid that. Having multiple OR prereqs would help, but I think you'd still hit the same problem with a large-enough city.

Ok, so I guess I'm not exactly "split". :P

Ugh, I wanted to keep this one short, too.

I'm not sure about this. I would think that doing things that are related to Terraforming Planet to be more like Earth would affect your points, not the other way around. Unless you're saying a revolving system, where the more you terraform, the lower your score, and thus the more you can terraform?


I meant that Planet rating would represent a philosophy or approach, and that in turn affected things like Terraforming rates; in retrospect, I can see how that doesn't make as much sense as being the other way around. Perhaps planet rating should be removed from the social engineering realm altogether and tied in with the Armageddon (flowering) Clock instead, on a faction-by-faction basis, as was suggested elsewhere. Thus, all terraforming a given faction does decreases their planet rating (potentially making future terraforming easier, in a sort of revolving system like you said) while also increasing the flowering clock planetwide.


If I understand you correctly, a citizen drafted in a city for a Planeteer could actually be fed to the NLF's to help them grow? I would implement this just to see that mad message :P

Alternatively, some Planet bonuses could be used as production factories similar to the metals idea, but with medicinal or horomonal growth uses for "Planet Resources". While the Metals Resources are specific to typical units, the Planet resources are specific to planet units.


Yes and yes. It might also be interesting to tie in the number of Fungus squares in the city radius with NLF production. There are already methods in place to check for numbers of features (forests/jungles), right? Would it be possible to change the effect from health/unhealth to a production increase for a specific unit domain?


Not sure what you mean here. What is the "other" building to check for? If I recall correctly, you would make the bonuses cumulative.


The other building to check for would be *any* type of base production facility, either a generic factory or a domain-specific factory. This step would only be used if it was decided that there shouldn't be "hard" pre-req for units to need a certain type of building, but still wanted to preserve a sense of "units are built much more efficiently when you have a place to build them".


I think that with some touching up and simplifying it down to just a few rules, it wouldn't be to bad. For example, when describing the effects, I think it would be ok to not have to differentiate between "Generic Buildings" and "Specialized buildings". Perhaps just be able to say each unit's production effectiveness is increased depending on the power of the buildings in the city that can affect it, and that the power of the buildings in the city are increased depending on the resources connected to it....

...Of course, this would severely cut down on our ability to tweak it to our wants, and I'm sure no-one would agree on the naming conventions. However, I believe that one of the things that SMAC got wrong (and so did a lot of other sci-fi items) is that the names didn't adequately tell us what it was describing in many cases. I'm not recommending we use "Normal", "Secondary", and "Advanced", but if we come up with a convention that can give players a hint as to how to best run that building, we would cut the amount that the player would have to learn to just one domain and the others would follow suit.


Prereq and inter-related buildings are both meant to be flavorful; if they don't add enough to gameplay, they shouldn't be in. I normally wouldn't think of prereqs as being a good idea, but the system works very well in FFH, where each "land" unit line has a specific prereq building needed for building or upgrading any unit in the line.

For a simpler direction than prereqs and inter-relation, you could just have 2 archetypes of production-boosting facilities: Generic Factories and Domain-Specific Factories. Generic Factories are the Forge and Factory of vanilla civ 4; Domain-Specific Factories are the Drydocks of vanilla civ 4. In this case, both would rely mostly on resource availability for bonus production, rather than being "powered".

Under this setup, both types of factories could conceivably receive upgrades throughout the game to represent improving fabrication techs. The tree would be rather simple, and look something like this:

Original Building: Assembly Plant
First Upgrade Line --> Automation: Assembly Plant --> Matter Converters: Assembly Plant
Second Upgrade Line --> Nanite Quality Control: Assembly Plant --> Nanoreplicators: Assembly Plant

With the default factory being more productive with a given resource, and the more advanced additions requiring gradually more Light Metals and Radioactives to be effective. Each factory would have a set of "upgrades", either the same listed above, or varying for each factory (in which case the tree might need simplification into one upgrade line for each non-generic factory)

Generic Factory = Assembly Plant (Theme: Heavy Metals)
Generic Factory = Reactor Plant (Theme: Radioactives)
Generic Factory = Electronics Plant (Theme: Light Metals)
Infantry Factory = Armoury (Theme: Light Metals)
Vehicle Factory = Vehicle Plant (Theme: Light/Heavy Metals)
Air Factory = Hangar (Theme: Light Metals)
Naval Factory = Shipyard (Theme: Heavy Metals)
Space Factory = Launch Facility (Theme: Light Metals/Radioactives)


Ugh, I wanted to keep this one short, too.

I suppose it isn't any fun when someone comes in and bombs your ball-bearing plant, rendering you unable to produce new units that need those ball bearings...

I meant that Planet rating would represent a philosophy or approach, and that in turn affected things like Terraforming rates; in retrospect, I can see how that doesn't make as much sense as being the other way around. Perhaps planet rating should be removed from the social engineering realm altogether and tied in with the Armageddon (flowering) Clock instead, on a faction-by-faction basis, as was suggested elsewhere. Thus, all terraforming a given faction does decreases their planet rating (potentially making future terraforming easier, in a sort of revolving system like you said) while also increasing the flowering clock planetwide.


Well, whenever I say "Planet Rating" or "Planet Score", I'm thinking about a variable which works like the Planet Counter, but instead of globally it is rather for each specific Player. For example. Deidre might accumulate a very large Planet rating after building a bunch of pro-eco buildings and helping destroy anti-eco ones. If SE is used, a high "Planet" category and a low "Industry" category might help to improve your Player Planet Rating. Of course, if Civics are used we don't have this discussion :P



Yes and yes. It might also be interesting to tie in the number of Fungus squares in the city radius with NLF production. There are already methods in place to check for numbers of features (forests/jungles), right? Would it be possible to change the effect from health/unhealth to a production increase for a specific unit domain?


Not sure if there is such a function, but that could be easily accomplished. As long as it would be visually appealing to have a player's tiles completely surrounded by fungus, which I assume would eventually be an outcome unless we made a reason for it not to :P



The other building to check for would be *any* type of base production facility, either a generic factory or a domain-specific factory. This step would only be used if it was decided that there shouldn't be "hard" pre-req for units to need a certain type of building, but still wanted to preserve a sense of "units are built much more efficiently when you have a place to build them".


I guess it's just a matter of implementation, which I can handle. Typically, in cases like these, when you're looking for production bonuses, you take a look at ALL the buildings on the plot, see which ones would have the effect, and sum up their total. Even though you know that there are only three specific ones, to make it more generic and allow for not having to change the code when you add the XML to another building later, you check every possible building anyway.


Prereq and inter-related buildings are both meant to be flavorful; if they don't add enough to gameplay, they shouldn't be in. I normally wouldn't think of prereqs as being a good idea, but the system works very well in FFH, where each "land" unit line has a specific prereq building needed for building or upgrading any unit in the line.


I'm not saying they don't add to gameplay, but rather they might add to confusion. Of course, we could always just say that the target audience of our mod are those willing to weed through all the different building types, will take the time to learn the system, and we'd be done with it. That's probably a good question to ask now over a month into development :P


Under this setup, both types of factories could conceivably receive upgrades throughout the game to represent improving fabrication techs. The tree would be rather simple, and look something like this:

Original Building: Assembly Plant
First Upgrade Line --> Automation: Assembly Plant --> Matter Converters: Assembly Plant
Second Upgrade Line --> Nanite Quality Control: Assembly Plant --> Nanoreplicators: Assembly Plant


I'm not so sure about "upgrading" factories, I liked your idea of having the factories be able to be separate, so if you wanted to you could skip a step by making separate buildings. But that's just my opinion, I'd like to hear another's.


With the default factory being more productive with a given resource, and the more advanced additions requiring gradually more Light Metals and Radioactives to be effective. Each factory would have a set of "upgrades", either the same listed above, or varying for each factory (in which case the tree might need simplification into one upgrade line for each non-generic factory)

Generic Factory = Assembly Plant (Theme: Heavy Metals)
Generic Factory = Reactor Plant (Theme: Radioactives)
Generic Factory = Electronics Plant (Theme: Light Metals)
Infantry Factory = Armoury (Theme: Light Metals)
Vehicle Factory = Vehicle Plant (Theme: Light/Heavy Metals)
Air Factory = Hangar (Theme: Light Metals)
Naval Factory = Shipyard (Theme: Heavy Metals)
Space Factory = Launch Facility (Theme: Light Metals/Radioactives)



Ok, reading over that list, I see why you originally made the plants a sci-fi theme, it's not as much fun when they're simple to understand like that, it takes away their sci-fi aura.

Are we looking into the possibility of producing seeds in the cities and then having our terraformers plant wheat, corn, or rice eventually? There is a modcomp that I linked to in some thread where resources are planted.

We'd need checks and balances so you couldn't plant too many Earth resources in a concentrated area or maybe there would be a chance they didn't take or they eventually get consumed and need to be replanted. We could also have terrain need to go fallow or have terraformers fertilize or ammend the soil before Earth crops can be planted.

I'd think planting and harvesting grapes to eventually make real Earth wine would make the people very happy. Same with barely or hops.

Too complicated or not a direction we're headed?

Are we looking into the possibility of producing seeds in the cities and then having our terraformers plant wheat, corn, or rice eventually? There is a modcomp that I linked to in some thread where resources are planted.

Too complicated or not a direction we're headed?

Not too complicated, but I just don't like the "seed" idea. I'd like to hear what others think though.

To restate what I said earlier in the thread, I really don't like the idea of representing the importation of earth crops or cattle. Diet was far more important to health in Civ 4 than it would be in Planetfall, since the colonists have a solid understanding of nutrition. I think it is better to represent earth crops/cattle with buildings and non-resource-dependent improvements. Hydroponic farms in bases early on, but not "Tomato Hydroponic Farm" and "Wheat Hydroponic Farm". Regular Farm improvements outside bases once the appropriate technology is discovered, but not building farms on top of "Earth Food Type X" or "Alien Food Type Y". The same goes for cattle: if the colonists are cloning terran cattle using genetic blueprints, it should be represented through pasture improvements rather than specific animal resources, if it is represented at all.
Summary: I think any resource-based mechanic for imported flora and fauna is more suited to a colonization scenario taking place in the 16th or 17th century.

I'm fine with that. I'd rather have the colonists discover safe uses for existing fauna I guess.

I didn't see much people other than GRM, woodelf and I, but I think the main ideas of strategy resource are enough that we can put it to a vote, just to get others opinions, since I'm sure the long posts are what drove people away from the discussion.

Here is how i would summarize the discussion thus far (i.e. there would be room for adding more stuff on, such as a "seed" system, if the general populace deems it so :P)


Strategy resources would be many different resources that would be divided into a few classes. In this example, we'll use the classes of "Light Metals", "Heavy Metals", "Radioactives", "Hydrocarbons", and "Silicates".
Unlike Civ4, no units depend on Strategic resources to be built. However, strategic resources, when linked to a city with the proper building, can speed the development of certain units (similar to how strategic resources can speed wonder construction). For example, a needlejet could receive production bonuses if a Reactor Lab is present in a city where a Light Metal strategic resource is connected.
Buildings that give bonuses could give relatively weak bonuses generically (many or all units being affected) or stronger bonuses more specifically (to a smaller amount of units). Specific bonuses could be determined by unit class, domain, or other factors.


Would this be a valid description to put to a vote?

On genericizing resources: would only the metals be under this, or all types of resources? Just for the sake of consistency, you know... :cute:
In Civ4, units depending on resources simulates more or less the whole chain from mining the ore to constructing the stuff in an appropriate assembly spot.
What GRM advocates here is putting an extra step or two in between the point a type of unit is researched and can be produced. Extra micromanaging if you ask me. I would more be in favour of a system where for instance a generic "Electronics Lab/Workshop" allows hightech stuff like SA's, and a generic "Assembly Plant" allows construction of units.
If we go the route from a building/unitclass, there's no end to the amount of production facilities we have to dream up.

As on GRM's objection to using earth's flora/fauna graphics, it would mostly be a way to show the discrepancy between the settled and terraformed lands compared the the native kept lands. I feel this would give a player a profound look on how his/her colony is expanding as an Earthclone (or not if he/she goes the Planet way). I agree on his point that there's no real need to let earth crops give extra health for each and every type. But what I would advocate is perhaps a system that per latitude/raininess of the plots determines what kind of crop/cattle will be shown on the map.

Yes. I prefer the time bonus when you have a strategic resource as opposed to needing it entirely. The resource itself represents a massive amount, not the only stuff available. Saving time and maybe cost works for me.

And I would think luxury and health stuff would be treated as is. :health: and :) for those unless we're going away from health...

On genericizing resources: would only the metals be under this, or all types of resources? Just for the sake of consistency, you know...


My proposal was only to make Strategic resources generic, and to make luxuries and 'health' resources (IE Alien Flora and Fauna of various sorts) specific. To look at it another way: the familiar things (Iron, Copper, Aluminium, Uranium, etc.) should be made generic to help suspend disbelief while simultaneously taking some focus away from them, while the new things (Alien Animals/Spores/Fungal Buds/Fungal Narcotics) should be specified and made interesting.


In Civ4, units depending on resources simulates more or less the whole chain from mining the ore to constructing the stuff in an appropriate assembly spot.
What GRM advocates here is putting an extra step or two in between the point a type of unit is researched and can be produced. Extra micromanaging if you ask me. I would more be in favour of a system where for instance a generic "Electronics Lab/Workshop" allows hightech stuff like SA's, and a generic "Assembly Plant" allows construction of units.
If we go the route from a building/unitclass, there's no end to the amount of production facilities we have to dream up.


I proposed several systems, the first one simply requiring a production facility present before units can be built, and the second (small note) simply accelerating unit production through resources instead of requiring them. That is almost definitely the simplest option, and still seems sensible to me.


As on GRM's objection to using earth's flora/fauna graphics, it would mostly be a way to show the discrepancy between the settled and terraformed lands compared the the native kept lands. I feel this would give a player a profound look on how his/her colony is expanding as an Earthclone (or not if he/she goes the Planet way). I agree on his point that there's no real need to let earth crops give extra health for each and every type. But what I would advocate is perhaps a system that per latitude/raininess of the plots determines what kind of crop/cattle will be shown on the map.

I wasn't really concerned about the graphics: I was concerned about the bonuses to health and food production. I don't think we need to carry over a system of "The colonists have planted rice here, so it is +2 food as opposed to +3 food for the wheat over there, and we can't plant these right next to each other for gameplay purposes, and we had better optimize which types we plant to ensure we get the most health out of it and have the most available to trade". If it's purely graphical, I don't see any problem with having farms look like wheat farms in some terrains/elevations/latitudes and maize farms in others, but I don't think there should be any gameplay differentiation between them.

Edit: On the topic of luxuries, are there any other thoughts on the "Fad Luxury" idea (Post 53)?

In Civ4, units depending on resources simulates more or less the whole chain from mining the ore to constructing the stuff in an appropriate assembly spot.
What GRM advocates here is putting an extra step or two in between the point a type of unit is researched and can be produced.

I was under the belief that there would not be a building required to build specific units. I took it as specific and generic buildings give specific and generic bonuses of production. No resources of buildings are needed to build units, all they do is speed production.

Extra micromanaging if you ask me. I would more be in favour of a system where for instance a generic "Electronics Lab/Workshop" allows hightech stuff like SA's, and a generic "Assembly Plant" allows construction of units.


That could be a possibility.


If we go the route from a building/unitclass, there's no end to the amount of production facilities we have to dream up.


That's true. Domain might be a better choice, as there would only be a few. We could also create a new tag specifically for these if we want something in between, but I think domain or unit combat type should fit this fine.


As on GRM's objection to using earth's flora/fauna graphics, it would mostly be a way to show the discrepancy between the settled and terraformed lands compared the the native kept lands. I feel this would give a player a profound look on how his/her colony is expanding as an Earthclone (or not if he/she goes the Planet way). I agree on his point that there's no real need to let earth crops give extra health for each and every type. But what I would advocate is perhaps a system that per latitude/raininess of the plots determines what kind of crop/cattle will be shown on the map.

I'm just not sure about the cattle. I don't think there would be large animals on board the ship. There are other, more efficient ways of getting the nutrients we get such as protein. We're only a half-century or so in the future, the ship that is being launched isn't exactly the Enterprise. Also, how much space could be in those escape pods?

Crops I can understand, but I don't like the idea of Earth-animals. I feel it would take away from the futuristic feeling.



And I would think luxury and health stuff would be treated as is. :health: and :) for those unless we're going away from health...

Yeah, I also don't see changing luxury and health too much, but that doesn't mean I'm set on keeping it as it is. If a good idea came along I would go for it.

I'm just not sure about the cattle. I don't think there would be large animals on board the ship. There are other, more efficient ways of getting the nutrients we get such as protein. We're only a half-century or so in the future, the ship that is being launched isn't exactly the Enterprise. Also, how much space could be in those escape pods?

Crops I can understand, but I don't like the idea of Earth-animals. I feel it would take away from the futuristic feeling.

Genetic Blueprints from datalinks -> Cloning Techs -> Reconstructed Earth Animals.

There are a few problems: The datalinks don't have full entries for the animals, and mass cloning is a big endeavor, so cattle would have to come late in the game if they were to come at all.

Now, what use are they compared to grains, is a different matter. Imported Cattle would seem to me to be a liability on an alien world, as every added step in a food chain opens up the possibility of unexpected unpleasantries, including things like environmental toxins, or alien diseases. Even in a completely controlled environment, its an inefficient use of limited energy resources; animal products would be a luxury for the elite, or a high price meal ticket at a fancy space restaraunt, rather than a common foodstuff. Cattle, I think, might be better represented by a resource-providing wonder: its a taste of old earth, and all that.

Tofu? Solves everything.

I was looking to see what would need to be implemented to do production bonuses for building/resources, when I realized we would probably need to come up with whether we want to use unit/unitclasses/domain/unit combat types/other for the decider on how resources/buildings affect unit production.

GeoModder already made the point that going with unit or unit classes would probably be a ton of work, so I would recommend either domain types or unit combat types. I think unit combat types would be better off, since we have more leverage to change a unit's combat type than their domain if we need balancing.

Besides that issue, I think all those who have commented find that unit production bonuses are worthwhile, so I was hoping to just skip the vote and go to implementation tonight, since it's pretty small.

I know we're still up in the air for the other resources, so I would just be working on the strategic. Basically, it would be an XML tag for buildings that would have a bonus ("resource") and unit combat type / domain type / other and the modifier to their production.

To look at it another way: the familiar things (Iron, Copper, Aluminium, Uranium, etc.) should be made generic to help suspend disbelief

Well personally I feel making generic strategic resources would create disbelief. Personally I prefer concrete names so I can live in and roleplay in what I'm doing. "A Fusion Reactor requires Hydrogen" means more to me than "A Fusion Reactor requires Light Metals or something". I'd rather have no resources than generic resources.

Well personally I feel making generic strategic resources would create disbelief. Personally I prefer concrete names so I can live in and roleplay in what I'm doing. "A Fusion Reactor requires Hydrogen" means more to me than "A Fusion Reactor requires Light Metals or something". I'd rather have no resources than generic resources.

Fair enough; if more people have trouble with generic resources, I can understand it. But like I said in my first post in this thread, virtually every element forms a vital part of a futuristic industrial society's industry, and you can't implement 100+ resources. Also, a lot of the elements could be used interchangably or in different amounts for different applications. If we are limiting it to a certain number of resources, there should be a justificiation for it: perhaps Planet is completely littered with easily obtainable samples of all of the lighter metal elements, except for aluminium oxides, so aluminium makes the grade for a resource because, for one reason or another, it cannot be replaced with those easier to obtain samples. Perhaps plutonium, radium, actinium, and the rest of the naturally occuring radioactives are all completely absent on planet, and so only uranium makes the cut for a resource.

I too prefer to have reallife resources so to speak.
Not to break down your suggestin, GRM, but I like to keep things consistent and Native Planetresources would be too common if only called by generic names. It's part of the dreamy fluff that surrounds scifi.
As on the whole periodic table to be included: the few things I read about metals used in industrial equipment, there are always the most common ones that keep on popping up: iron, copper, gold, silver, aluminium, silicons,... most of the others seem to be interchangeable with those, altho at lower efficiency levels then for the final instrument.

First: in case there is any question on it, I am definitely not in favor of making non-strategic resources generic. I'm only concerned about elements.


As on the whole periodic table to be included: the few things I read about metals used in industrial equipment, there are always the most common ones that keep on popping up: iron, copper, gold, silver, aluminium, silicons,... most of the others seem to be interchangeable with those, altho at lower efficiency levels then for the final instrument.

For one, it isn't just industrial equipment, its units and buildings and components, and anything that strategic resources can be used for. Potential in-game uses easily cover the entire periodic table. I'll put it another way, in reference to Civ 4: one of the biggest failures of Civ 4 in representing the modern era is the handling of resources. It is perfectly suited to ancient and classical periods, but once you start to move up, it loses its viability. If it were to accurately represent the modern era, everything would require iron, coal, and aluminium, along with a lot of other 'invisible' resources. In civ, the way it is justified is that only 'economically significant' resources are represented, even though economically significant resources from ancient ages continue through into the modern.

In order for iron to be useful, it needs carbon. Coal, on earth. There isn't any on Planet, although I'm sure alternatives could be come up with, especially with synth fossil fuels. Copper can be replaced by Aluminium, Gold, or Silver for wiring and other electrical conductivity applications (The only thing copper would be used for in a futuristic industrial society), although Aluminium is less efficient and on earth, Gold and Silver are 'too valuable' here because of their monetary association. Silicates are already a generic resource that I proposed.

Silicates, Rare Earths, Precious Metals, Heavy Metals, Radioactives, Gases, ect could all be groups of resources. Why split hairs on gold or silver or platinum? I'd settle for classes of specific elements if they can be grouped.

I'm thinking for resources what a classification system. You could introduce the entire periodic table if you wanted, but these exact elements would be "fluff". The important part is that each resource would have a classification, of which we would probably only limit it to around 5, with GRM's Heavy/Light Metals etc. being an example. You might have 100 resources in the XML, of which maybe 20 are generated on any given map, and each class of resources would only have a few resources of it's type on the map.

That way, we could have the simplicity of only having five plus or minus a few resources with the fluff of adding as many distinct resources with story and background as we want for those who want to open up the Civilopedia and read about it.

I'm not sure if this completely would cover the "fluff" element, as it would still be pretty generic in what the exact resources do (just a name can only be so interesting, it's how it works that's interesting). Ideas such as the "fad" resource (although it was concieved for luxury, use a similar idea of making individual resources affect gameplay without having to hard-code what exactly that gameplay effect is) could be used to push forward knowing what's going on.

I did the classification. :)

:bowdown: Show us, please !

I did the classification. :)

Funny you say that. I thought you mean you did it and committed it to SVN. I was gonna' check it out and then find some way to scold you nicely about committing stuff without discussion. But, I guess you meant in the forum you did it :crazyeye:

Thankfully, while checking out the XML to see what you didn't do, I realized that there already is a tag for BonusClassType, which I was just about to start implementing under another name :P

Edit: PS my shell for my new computer just arrived, so don't be surprised if you don't see me until Monday :P j/k

A nice scolding. Very delicate to pull off. :p

Pasture animals are getting into the same thing as cottages (which I posted in the other thread a bit ago. Still getting caught up in all the discussions. Probably won't finish today.)

Anyway, a somewhat inimical alien planet, no grass to speak of. You can't just put up a fence and release cattle like you can on Earth.

Basic fact of agriculture vs pasture. Cattle (etc) require less labor but more acreage to support. On a cost/economic comparison, they are viable on Earth. On a new planet, they would simply be unfeasible. Especially one with things like mindworms. Beef etc would almost certainly be a luxury good. The poor cows would live their lives in pens inside the habitat city, and only a small amount of beef would result.

Everything else would be agriculture or synthetic and made in a vat. As woodelf said: Tofu.

I don't know. Just talking here. We need a good dose of realism, but on the other hand, it needs to come down to the gameplay. We can rationalise just about anything, if we need to.

Wodan

Basic fact of agriculture vs pasture. Cattle (etc) require less labor but more acreage to support. On a cost/economic comparison, they are viable on Earth. On a new planet, they would simply be unfeasible. Especially one with things like mindworms. Beef etc would almost certainly be a luxury good. The poor cows would live their lives in pens inside the habitat city, and only a small amount of beef would result.


This is more or less what I was getting at, although *nothing* is just out there walking around...unless your cows can eat grass through space suits. Planet's atmosphere is a gasping death for organisms that are used to breathing earth's atmosphere, according to Deirdre...Anything out on planet's surface is either genetically engineered to survive, has a rebreather suit, or is in a contained atmospheric building. It's fairly easy to say "oh, we fiddled with the respiratory processes of the grains so they can adapt to the new atmosphere". Not so much for cows, although genetic engineering would have to be pretty advanced to be recreating cows from incomplete genetic data.

I'm starting to think of potential flora/fauna resources; any ideas? For the benefit of anyone who hasn't seen them or has forgotten the specifics:


Observe the Razorbeak as it tends so carefully to the fungal blooms;
just the right bit from the yellow, then a swatch from the pink.
Follow the Glow Mites as they gather and organize the fallen spores.
What higher order guides their work? Mark my words: someone or something
is {managing} the ecology of this planet.



Although Planet's native life is based, like Earth's, on right-handed
DNA, and codes for all the same amino acids, the inevitable chemical
and structural differences from a billion years of evolution in an
alien environment render the native plant life highly poisonous
to humans. Juicy, ripe grenade fruits may look appealing, but a
mouthful of organonitrates will certainly change your mind in a hurry.


Now, I would prefer that most flora/fauna resources on planet be hostile or unseen at start, revealed early on, and useless (as resources, not as plots) until an appropriate facility has been constructed (Biology Labs, Research Hospitals, etc.)
The primary purpose of most of these resources would be providing bonuses to the above-mentioned buildings, rather than constructing units or buildings, or providing a direct benefit (Healthy, Happiness).

Flora Resources
Grenade Fruit (Jungle/Native Brush features, reskinned spices?)
Bloomingstalks (Fungus, modified sugar?)

Sea Truffles (colonial algae on the seafloor, reskinned Copper?)
Fungal Lillies (Blooms on sea fungus, reskinned cotton [warlords]?)
Spire Tree (carnivorous plant, modified timber resource [TAM mod, amongst others]?)


Fau