I assume that we're going to expand on the basic 3 bonus resources from SMAC. Any preferences and ideas?

From SotM:

Carbon
Carbon Ice
Hydrogen
Oxygen
Water
Helium 3
Nutrients
All sorts of metals
All sorts of gems, crystals

I'm assuming that wherever the factions land will have breathable air, but if not that's why I included the air elements.

I don't have Roanoke installed anymore to see what we had there.

I guess the first step should be is the air breathable, water drinkable, and fauna edible? If so then we can use native resources. If not then finding and converting elemental resources is the first priority to survival.

Any discussion on the resources I believe should also in some way tie in to whether or not we're looking for more of a specialist-driven game, as opposed to a tile-driven game (for the obvious reasons that this affects how the ties should use resources).

From Maniac's thread (emphasis mine)...

For that reason, I’d prefer hammers being almost exclusively provided by labourer specialists working in the base, and not from terrain yields or bonus resources. I’d also prefer a quantitive resource system, ie not uranium resource being sufficient to build nuclear plants in all your cities, but one uranium resource necessary for each nuclear plant you build. Also oil (besides giving energy) could not give minerals directly for instance, but eg reduce the cost of building recon rovers.

The possible uses of energy fit kinda well with what commerce is already for in vanilla civ4: city maintenance and unit maintenance. Base facility maintenance could be added back to the list. I’d prefer to make a distinction though between energy production and general GDP/commerce, which translates into labs production gamewise. Science production I would prefer to reserve mostly to specialists (so free market for instance could give +1 labs per specialists, not +1 energy on each square as in SMAC). A windmill produces energy, not labs.


In this idea, we have both science output and hammers being almost solely driven by specialists (although, technically, I could see the "worker" specialist being thought of as a default "worker" or drone). This leaves only nutrients and energy (if science output is split off of energy) to be the only resources left from SMAC. I guess what we're saying with this idea is, "Hey, it's a barren land, but it obviously has stuff that we can use to make our machines/computer/buildings/guns. Let's just remove HOW we get the materials from the equation, assume that we have plenty of resources to build stuff, and say that the more workers the faster things get done."

However, I think some people will find this icky. Three has always been the magic number of resources. Munchies/Material/Money, that's how it's always been, tried and true.

I'm really hit a wall for ideas here. I'd like to see a neat new concept that might deviate from the rule of three. The idea of making specialists more accountable for the output seems like a step in the right direction (so long as it doesn't add the need to micromanage the city.. if science is mostly coming from specialists, I don't want to have to make sure every time a city moves up in pop I convert the default specialist to a science specialist just to make sure I'm maximizing my science production. This might be able to be automated, though).

Edit Oh, you're talking about THOSE resources... well, I get this thread should discuss all forms of resources..

We can surely talk about all resources here. :)

I think we might all be in agreement about specialists and their role in producing hammers, food, science, or whatever.

I'm thinking that, for now, we stay at the basic three. Any more radical ideas we want to make we'll discuss and, if agreed upon, we'll make the change at that point. I've rethought my point about making the resource changes before starting into the "obvious" XML stuff (Factions, mainly).

As for strategic/bonus resources, I'm thinking of having strategic resources allow for certain special abilities for units. For example, one strategic resource, combined with the right tech, allows a special ability that allows units to create cloaking fields around them for up to X turns, before having to allow Y turns for their cloaking-field packs to "recharge". Another resource, combined with the right tech, might give the ability to give units +1 mobility. Yet another might allow units to have two abilities before Neural Grafting (or this mod's equivalent, if it exists). Obviously, this last one really doesn't take up an ability spot itself. That way, the advantage goes to the player that really does the best with what they're given.

There would have to be a bunch of play-testing to balance out the resources, I believe.

It would be nice to have strategic resources, but I can't think of any that fit in SMAC's world. Can you? :(

It would be nice to have strategic resources, but I can't think of any that fit in SMAC's world. Can you? :(

It's a whole new world, there's not any we can make up competely?

It would be nice to have strategic resources, but I can't think of any that fit in SMAC's world. Can you? :(

There could be Giant ostriches that could be tamed, new metals that yield better armor, crystals (lattice) to be used in beam weaponry, Si-based compounds for fuels. The possibilities are limitless since we aren't doing a clone.

Luxuries could be pure air, pure water, gems, lattice silk, artifacts, ect.

There could be Giant ostriches that could be tamed, new metals that yield better armor, crystals (lattice) to be used in beam weaponry, Si-based compounds for fuels. The possibilities are limitless since we aren't doing a clone.

Luxuries could be pure air, pure water, gems, lattice silk, artifacts, ect.

I'm definitely thinking that there can be elements that aren't known about (or can't grow) on Earth. That's the beauty of science fiction. :P

One example would be a certain type of chemical that replaces silicon and it resistant to EMP-style attacks (which, probably later in the game, would be less efficient due to the development of machines that are immune to EMP.

P.S. So apparently I don't have work today... I drove to work and no-one is there. Which is good, since I'm still sick :P

So basically we can discover resources to fill a need in the mod. If we need a luxury resource I'm sure we can discover one. ;)

And yeah, some people get a paid day off today. Not me, but no biggie.

new metals that yield better armor

Problem is the whole Table of Mendeleyev has already been discovered. Also thing is in a futuristic world with genetics and nanonics and all that stuff there are probably always alternatives for anything, meaning there wouldn't be any important "strategic" resources. Then again, I'm not really a hard science guy, so what the hell do I know?

Problem is the whole Table of Mendeleyev has already been discovered. Also thing is in a futuristic world with genetics and nanonics and all that stuff there are probably always alternatives for anything, meaning there wouldn't be any important "strategic" resources. Then again, I'm not really a hard science guy, so what the hell do I know?

Metals, perhaps. But use of metals to do strange, new things, doubtful. The metals can still be metals that we've come up with, but we'd still need them in order to facilitate the abilities that come with technology.

A certain crystal structure might be necessary in order to create the high-powered laser device for a certain +1 power ability, etc.

You always need raw materials for composites and alloys. I'm sure that there are new ones out there for discovery. Once we get to synthetics and nano stuff then the "natural" armors/ores will be less important.

I'm not a hard science guy, but I work in R&D.

You always need raw materials for composites and alloys. I'm sure that there are new onces out there for discovery. Once we get to synthetics and nano stuff then the "natural" armors/ores will be less important.

I'm not a hard science guy, but I work in R&D.

Someday you'll have to explain to me your concept of "work" :P

So what do we have so far?

Oil
Uranium
Metals
Fresh Water
Fungal Gin: luxury resource, revealed by some Centauri tech
Crystals: for lasers. If you don't have any on the map, they can be synthetically be created by some nanonics tech.
Helium: necessary for Zeppelin, an early exploration unit. Makes for better fusion power. If you don't have any on the map, go get some at the nearest gas giant.

I think we need some native game and edible fauna as well. I think we need artifacts. They could come in handy later on. Not network nodes, but archeological stuff.

Shouldn't artifacts come from unity pods?
Edit: Oh, that's probably what you were referring to by 'not network nodes'.

I'm thinking artifacts are stuff we find leftover from previous inhabitants. Why should the Unity be the first ship to crash here or the first people to live here?

Yeah I know. But don't you remember the alien artifacts from SMAC?
Or do you mean landmarks like the Borehole Cluster and the Manifold Nexus?

Landmarks are fine, but I'm speaking of an actual resource that could be worked call "Archeological Dig" that would give happiness or gold or something new.

We need Landmarks. Good call.

Perhaps approach this issue in two steps:

1) Use the 3 SMAC/X resources as simple tile modifiers. This allows for early (easy?) implementation and perhaps offering feature testing options.

2) Once we have a better grasp on the features and balance in the mod we should re-work the entire resource system to match our vision.

Some additional thoughts:

- Have variations of the 3 base resources. This could be used in different ways. For example, the Civ4 model where copper and iron (same resource "type") both confer a hammer bonus to the tile; have small/medium/large resources for different tile yields, or a full Civ4 system where each variant counts as a "special resource".

- Have fossil fuel resources that deplete after a set number of turns. This could add a starting boost or even be dependent on faction (e.g. Yang gets a hammer bonus, Morgan gets a commerce bonus, and Deirdre gets a happiness penalty). Boost resources could be tied to specific starting technologies (or technology paths) and may randomly appear later in the game (only to deplete after maybe 30 turns).

Some additional thoughts:

- Have variations of the 3 base resources. This could be used in different ways. For example, the Civ4 model where copper and iron (same resource "type") both confer a hammer bonus to the tile; have small/medium/large resources for different tile yields, or a full Civ4 system where each variant counts as a "special resource".

- Have fossil fuel resources that deplete after a set number of turns. This could add a starting boost or even be dependent on faction (e.g. Yang gets a hammer bonus, Morgan gets a commerce bonus, and Deirdre gets a happiness penalty). Boost resources could be tied to specific starting technologies (or technology paths) and may randomly appear later in the game (only to deplete after maybe 30 turns).

Really interesting the idea of a "penalty" for resources that other gain. I think I'm kinda liking the Civ-based resource bonuses/penalties. It would probably be a pain to balance, but hey, that's what playing the game is for!

I also just want to say that I've thought before about having a "surveying" unit that you could use to try to "find" some untapped resources, with a random chance of surveying and finding something. I'd also just like to say that I think that this is a boring idea, so if anyone else has it, you already know my opinion :P

Landmarks are fine, but I'm speaking of an actual resource that could be worked call "Archeological Dig" that would give happiness or gold or something new.

Another possible implementation:

It would be nice if the Progenitor-themed and Resonance techs weren't directly researchable the normal way, but instead a bonus from studying Progenitor artifacts. These Progenitor tech wouldn't be necessary to go up the tech tree, but perhaps an alternative to the classical Psi tech branch with some unique goodies, such as resonance lasers etc.

So how about an archeological artifact resource as you suggest, which doesn't provide a direct bonus, but which allows the construction of some Archeological Lab (one per artifact resource you own), which gives some Great People points for some GP which can only be lightbulbed to get some Progenitor techs (or perhaps upgraded to a Battle Ogre :cool: )?

Okay, the mechanic is a bit complex, but unfortunately I can't see another way to convert artifact sites into Progenitor techs.

Another possible implementation:

It would be nice if the Progenitor-themed and Resonance techs weren't directly researchable the normal way, but instead a bonus from studying Progenitor artifacts. These Progenitor tech wouldn't be necessary to go up the tech tree, but perhaps an alternative to the classical Psi tech branch with some unique goodies, such as resonance lasers etc.

So how about an archeological artifact resource as you suggest, which doesn't provide a direct bonus, but which allows the construction of some Archeological Lab (one per artifact resource you own), which gives some Great People points for some GP which can only be lightbulbed to get some Progenitor techs (or perhaps upgraded to a Battle Ogre :cool: )?

Okay, the mechanic is a bit complex, but unfortunately I can't see another way to convert artifact sites into Progenitor techs.

Maniac, this is a brilliant idea! Simply brilliant!

Maniac, this is a brilliant idea! Simply brilliant!

I second that.

If we want to add "rockiness" it might be possible via resources.

We need to make sure we can have multiple resources at a single tile, though. I don't know it that is possible. Alternatively we need to do 3 of each base resource (normal, rolling and rocky).

Or just merge two or three resource in a new one and make a specific improvement.

Would it be possible to do a resource prototype? Implement somthing like this:

Nutrient: +2 food
Energy: +2 commerce
Mineral: +2 hammer
Monolith: Negates tile output and provides +2/+2/+2; additionally, gives visiting unit +5 XP (only once per unit and no additional XP from other Monoliths).
Progenitor Artifact: Negates tile output and provides +5 energy. Acts as "tradeable" resource and allows for a Progenitor Lab as per Maniac's suggestion. (Lab could be powered by the resource... or something.)

Not to interrupt this train of thought Rubin, but your powered got me thinking about power. I never play Vanilla Civ4 long enough to use power, but are we going to use it here? Maybe for the Energy Grid somehow?

I'd like a Resource prototype as well.

But we are planning on using strategic and luxury in Planetfall, correct? Not just the big 3.

Add Cristals : +1 Commerce +1 Hammer

But we are planning on using strategic and luxury in Planetfall, correct? Not just the big 3.

I am undecided on this issue. However, there were some viable ideas at Apolyton on how strategic resources could be balanced--which is my main concern.

a food resource: Grenade Fruits. IIRC mentioned in the Ecological Engineering quote

Firaxians imagined unused fauna, shall they become resources ? It can be seen on official site.

Just a link back to 2005 when Maniac first called for scifi resources. ;)
http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=139856

It gives a few more ideas/hints.

I do have a question on the specialist thing tho: if only specialists in bases can give hammers/beakers/commerce, how do you represent a resource tile like aluminium/bauxiet being worked to gain the basic material so to speak?
Wouldn't it be better to let the resources handle the graphic representation of it being harvested, but the specialists are needed to produce the available production stuff? Like without an engineer the factories can't construct facilities/units, without a doctor units don't heal in bases and population is more sick/less healthy, without a shrink/entertainer people are less happy?

So I would say keep the mineral/nutrient/energy visual representation on the map, but let the type of specialist in a base enable how much of that raw income is diverted to production/food/money/research.
I suppose you need two different sets of icons then: the mineral/nutrient/energy icons "on the field" and beakers/hammers/coinage/bread icons on the cityscreen.

From rereading that thread, I guess "Rare DNA" or "Medicinal Flora" or something could be a resource which is revealed by Biogenetics and provides extra health with a Clinic and Research Hospital.

I don't think we're going through with the suggestion of splitting up raw materials and production power. I guess one could assume a mine already includes the human and robotic production capacity to convert the raw materials into a finished product. And that a specialist providing hammers represents an alternative production method for something which doesn't require the usual raw materials.

Neutronium for neutronium armor ?

What about Xenofungus ( Crimson ) providing energy via Cold Fusion process (cf. an early episode from Stargate-season 2).

Neutronium for neutronium armor ?

Neutronium wouldn't be found on a planet, its too dense a "material" for that. ;)

It is like Naquadah ? Only jaffa can carry then.

Neutronium is deteriorated matter so to speak, it can be obtained in the core of neutron stars and nowhere else.

Well...maybe an asteroid impacted the planet with some of this core? Now we have a Neutronium resource scattered about. Now that's sci-fi!

Asteroidal matter isn't dense enough to have neutronium in it. ;)
If neutronium is to be used as a resource, it is something that should be created in a linear accelerator, but not obtained in nature (on the map thus).

What about an asteroid made from the core of a star? That would be uncool to get hit by.

Such an object could never escape from its own gravity. :D

Dammit. We need something cool. While you're droning at work think about resources. :D

Don't worry, I'll brainstorm a few up. ;)

A follow up:
Looking into the Mendelev table, the following metals seem the minimum for a technological society to construct its tools of trade:
Iron
Copper
Aluminium
(Crystals?)
Silicon
Gold
Silver
Uranium
With these, one can made the alloys for the basics.
And I guess diamonds are still every colony girl's best friend. :mischief:

For food resources, personally I have a hard time believing that any type of native flora/fauna can be made edible for humans, my take on natural planet resources is that extractions of them might be good for medicines, or vitamines. So in this case we could just use any fluff from SMAC (like Razorbeaks, or glowmites, or fungalroots, or sandkrill and offer the player a benefit like QuickGene (quicker genetransplant integration), Interface Gel (to have a better interface between Mind and Machine), Psionic Enhancer (the native trait), cattle fodder for the time colonists breed their own cattle again in pasture domes or on the open surface.

I would suggest, linked with the discovery of genetic techs, that colonists are able to introduce first earth plants, and later cattle on Planet. So basically I endorse that plots don't have a :food: output on their own, whatever the level of rain. Only with tankfarms and Biogenetics would there be a reliable source of food available in the early decades. Also, I would go for a system in which earthlife must grow first before it reaches its full output, especially the fauna as to simulate the growing herds on this plot.

Okay, think this is enough of a read for now. :D

Someone is introducing a modcomp based on planting resources I think. This would be helpful to us I think. Link here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=213207).

First off: I think it is vital that a component which alters research speed based on available resources (TheLopez made one, I think) be present. Available samples of native flora and fauna should increase bio research, extensive availability of rare chemical elements should increase metallurgical research, and so on.

I am assuming a planet along the lines of the one seen in SMAC: The atmosphere is not perfect, but is close enough to earth's that a supplemental filter can be worn by colonists for safe travel outside, and environmental protective wear would be recommended but not needed. In addition, it has plenty of surface water (practically necessary, if the atmosphere is similar) and sports carbon-based life. This leaves a few things up in the air: For strategic resources, are there fossil fuels, and what is the mineral composition of the planet? For "Health" resources, just how much biodiversity are we dealing with? For "Happy" resources, just what is it about weird stuff you find on an alien planet that makes colonists happy enough to forget why you've just dumped half their population into the recycling tanks to get enough resources for that shiny new network node?

Strategic Resources: Representing individual elements may be out of character for both SMAC and science fiction in general: there are a lot more usable metals than can be reasonably implemented. Use broader categories as the resources:

-Heavy Metals - (Mostly base metals; metals that react easily with acids. Oxidizes and corrodes easily. Mainly Industrial applications for a space-age society...would be more important shortly after planetfall.)

-Light Metals - (Mostly noble metals; term to cover all the useful alloying materials...Aluminium, Titanium, precious metals. More important for High-Tech industry and applications, including weapons and armor.)

-Radioactives - (What it says on the tin. Uranium, Plutonium, :nuke: , that sort of thing. It's not just for primitive nuclear reactors during the initial years of planetfall: it's also vital for all that research into quantum mechanics, building supercolliders, you get the idea.)


-Hydrocarbons - (Is there going to be Oil in this? One of the things I liked about SMAC was the lack of fossil fuels on Planet...it was listed as one of the most important reasons that Energy replaced Precious Metals as a form of currency, I think. However, even without Petroleum, it would be reasonable to have sources of easily harvestable or processable hydrocarbons of less valuable nature. These could still be used as an inefficient economy fuel early on, or processed into Plastic-Like subtances with the right techs.)

-Silicates - (Earth has these in abundance, so such a resource isn't as important here. But if they were harder to come by on a different planet, they'd be very relevant for a science fiction scenario. Plenty of applications in construction, and ceramics [Ceramsteel Powered Armor...mmm], and Silicon has an obvious urgency for semiconductor/transistor technology. Can't have our formers and remotely operated machines running on vaccuum tubes, you know. If they are common, however [a more realistic situation], Silicates could be safely considered to fall under the "Light Metals" category, if need be.)

Health Resources: Obviously, the colonists aren't going to hop out of their rocketships and start chowing down on 6-legged alien sheep. Instead, native flora and fauna represent something entirely different: Medicine was already mentioned, and that's a part of it. But researching the native life, as in SMAC, should give the colonists an increasing understanding of how their presence impacts the local environment: what was safe to dump on earth might cause the local alien forests to degenerate and emit envirosuit-breaching toxins on the new planet.


-Flora - Interesting sessile lifeforms are good, and more likely to be used for food, if it were to come to that, since they're at the 'bottom' of the food chain. This can go in any direction. As for importing Earth crops: This should be represented by a farm. Just a farm. Colonists should be planting earth crops out there, not alien ones, and they're not going to be any healthier for doing so, nor do I think it will enchance the game to have them plant different varieties of earth crop. As biotech improves, the farms with earth crops gradually get up to speed and adapt to the new environment, with a little help from genetic modification and crossbreeding. I do agree that by default, terrain should produce little or nothing; to counter this early on, and provide an interesting starting game, the default "laborer" should provide one unit each of food, production, and commerce.
When and if it comes time to harvest alien flora, there should be a seperate improvement along the lines of a Plantation for resources, and a "different sort" of lumbermill for 'forests' and 'jungles': perhaps an improvement focused more on harvesting useful organic compounds for research or, if biotech has advanced enough, consumption.



-[U]Fauna - I think the best way to handle alien life forms is this: have basic lifeforms and a more advanced sort of lifeform. The advanced lifeform represents a permanent 'barbarian' threat, along the lines of mindworms. The basic lifeforms are the creatures that might be a danger early on, but not so much as the colonists gradually understand the new ecosystem. To this effect: All Fauna are barbarians at game start. After a certain level of biotech is reached, primitive animals become visible as resources, and once a higher level is reached, the "Basic" hostile lifeforms, the equivalent of Lions, Wolves, Panthers and Bears in vanilla Civ, vanish from the map and instead become useable resources. The advanced lifeform(s), whatever that is, remains a threat throughout the game.
I think its worth mentioning the Lalande scenario from Test of Time, which had a number of fairly creative native lifeforms...giant burrowing insects in salt flats, bear-like creatures that lived in acidic marshes; and going back to flora, the main method of early scientific advance was studying the dominant lifeform of the planet, a type of forest that routinely burned itself to the ground with fire-pod fruits, to enrich the soil for the next generation.


Luxury Resources: This seems like the area with the most possibilities for creative interpretation. Is there some amazing new narcotic that can be harvested for great happiness, but which will also turn your people into dunces? I do not think that any civ4 luxuries should be present...all the precious metals that are mined on the new planet will likely be going straight to industry and science. Flora and Fauna-based luxuries, yes, but there needs to be a plain and sensible reason. Colonists on another planet aren't going to be impressed by jewelry made from space-elephant tusks, but they might be impressed with a gland harvested from a space elephant that makes their synapses fire faster and extends their lifespan.

Neutronium is degenerate matter, like metallic hydrogen. It is super-dense, and is found in super-dense places. If that sort of thing is in the game, it will be produced in a lab environment, like Geomodder said. For asteroids dumping interesting metals on the planet: that is a very real possibility, the earliest examples of iron weaponry and tools on earth were constructed with meteoric iron, which was often an iron alloy, and thus was far more usable with the low metalworking technology of ancient times. Perhaps there are large groups of asteroids composed of platinum alloys in this new system? That's an exaggeration, but finding useful surface metal of that nature might make a solid Goodie Hut/Unity Pod event.

A follow up:
Looking into the Mendelev table, the following metals seem the minimum for a technological society to construct its tools of trade:

Yeah, but what gameplay effects will these have?

If a faction fails to link them up, they or won't be able to construct certain stuff, or constructing the stuff takes longer (meaning that having those "basic" resources linked up enables a player to construct in less turns a network node, a rover, an early secret project or two, stuff like that).
It's indeed not really necessary, and can be omitted but I have a hard time thinking of other "vital" metals which can't be switched by some other metal as well.
Perhaps GRM7584 idea to divide them in general classes has merit from this point of view.

I am assuming a planet along the lines of the one seen in SMAC: The atmosphere is not perfect, but is close enough to earth's that a supplemental filter can be worn by colonists for safe travel outside, and environmental protective wear would be recommended but not needed.


I kind of liked the idea of having the world start pretty inhospitable, but be able to terraform the planet (possibly using policies enacted in diplomacy) to eventually allow a more breathable system that allows for increased productivity. The Planeteer factions would probably vote it down.

For "Happy" resources, just what is it about weird stuff you find on an alien planet that makes colonists happy enough to forget why you've just dumped half their population into the recycling tanks to get enough resources for that shiny new network node?

All-natural soma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soma_%28Brave_New_World%29)?
:P

Strategic Resources

It seems that others have a pretty heightened grasp of metals and construction than I do, so I'm going to trust a lot of what's being said.

Health Resources: Obviously, the colonists aren't going to hop out of their rocketships and start chowing down on 6-legged alien sheep.


I smell an easter egg... :P

As for importing Earth crops: This should be represented by a farm. Just a farm. Colonists should be planting earth crops out there, not alien ones, and they're not going to be any healthier for doing so, nor do I think it will enchance the game to have them plant different varieties of earth crop.

...

When and if it comes time to harvest alien flora, there should be a seperate improvement along the lines of a Plantation for resources, and a "different sort" of lumbermill for 'forests' and 'jungles': perhaps an improvement focused more on harvesting useful organic compounds for research or, if biotech has advanced enough, consumption.


I'm thinking this is a "when". While I agree that having a player build improvements that just build carrots over green beens is overkill, I think that there should at least be the option to start "living off the native land". The idea of Planet defending itself (which has been discussed before) from threats in this light could be how the food is foraged. One improvement might be more Planet-friendly than another, although would have other disadvantages.

I can't find the post, but one thing mentioned was that in order to achieve a "don't piss off planet" vibe, there could be a few different types of natural Flora, some bad (poisonous, probably would lower health for the plot, among other things), some good (+ health or + food). You can always plant good flora, assuming you have the right setup, but flora can spawn near your base or spread (similar to forests in Civ4), and will be "good" or "bad" depending on how planet-friendly you have been thus far.


-Fauna - I think the best way to handle alien life forms is this: have basic lifeforms and a more advanced sort of lifeform. The advanced lifeform represents a permanent 'barbarian' threat, along the lines of mindworms. The basic lifeforms are the creatures that might be a danger early on, but not so much as the colonists gradually understand the new ecosystem. To this effect: All Fauna are barbarians at game start. After a certain level of biotech is reached, primitive animals become visible as resources, and once a higher level is reached, the "Basic" hostile lifeforms, the equivalent of Lions, Wolves, Panthers and Bears in vanilla Civ, vanish from the map and instead become useable resources. The advanced lifeform(s), whatever that is, remains a threat throughout the game.
I think its worth mentioning the Lalande scenario from Test of Time, which had a number of fairly creative native lifeforms...giant burrowing insects in salt flats, bear-like creatures that lived in acidic marshes; and going back to flora, the main method of early scientific advance was studying the dominant lifeform of the planet, a type of forest that routinely burned itself to the ground with fire-pod fruits, to enrich the soil for the next generation.


Perhaps you can take a look at my post here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5217579&postcount=27)regarding NLF (Native Life Forms). It's by no means what we're doing, in fact no one really has commented on it, just something I'm particularly fond of. I'm sure it could go along with your idea here.

I'm sure that more fun than seeing these creative life forms is being able to control them!



Luxury Resources: This seems like the area with the most possibilities for creative interpretation. Is there some amazing new narcotic that can be harvested for great happiness, but which will also turn your people into dunces? I do not think that any civ4 luxuries should be present...all the precious metals that are mined on the new planet will likely be going straight to industry and science.

Flora and Fauna-based luxuries, yes, but there needs to be a plain and sensible reason. Colonists on another planet aren't going to be impressed by jewelry made from space-elephant tusks, but they might be impressed with a gland harvested from a space elephant that makes their synapses fire faster and extends their lifespan.


I think most of what we consider to be "precious" is so because of the way we define precious. Shiny objects will get more attention, but why are diamonds so amazingly popular and expensive. Sure, they're shiny, but I think it has more to do with marketing :P

When colonists arrive at a new planet, I'm sure that there would be a bunch of different items that, given a different set of scenarios, would become popular or not, even though they're the same items. A metal object that glows different colors might be great for creating atmosphere at home like a lava-lamp, or it could viewed as a frightening object of impending doom.

Basically, I think we could really come up with anything, and so long as we can sell it to the players, then it's possible that those who colonize Planet would be able to sell it to the colonists.

Neutronium is degenerate matter, like metallic hydrogen. It is super-dense, and is found in super-dense places. If that sort of thing is in the game, it will be produced in a lab environment, like Geomodder said. For asteroids dumping interesting metals on the planet: that is a very real possibility, the earliest examples of iron weaponry and tools on earth were constructed with meteoric iron, which was often an iron alloy, and thus was far more usable with the low metalworking technology of ancient times. Perhaps there are large groups of asteroids composed of platinum alloys in this new system? That's an exaggeration, but finding useful surface metal of that nature might make a solid Goodie Hut/Unity Pod event.

A unity pod would be the obvious replacement for goodie huts, but I think that impact craters could work too. The graphics might be a bit strange, but the gameplay would work out. Perhaps impact craters show where future resources may lie, providing players a reason for developing near them, similar to how players tend to develop near a mountain thinking that there's a possibility of finding iron when they gain the necessary resource? I really can't tell if this would be a good thing or a bad thing, which I would lead to believe that it's probably a bad thing, but I thought I'd throw it out there anyway.

I like your thinking. I'm not sure I have the mind capable of coming up with the actual names or definitions, but if you have any ideas on how the resource system might be modified slightly from Civ4, feel free to talk about them. Say if something works neat in your head, but would require strategic resources to work differently, it can be arranged.

I kind of liked the idea of having the world start pretty inhospitable, but be able to terraform the planet (possibly using policies enacted in diplomacy) to eventually allow a more breathable system that allows for increased productivity. The Planeteer factions would probably vote it down.


I did like the planetary 'terraforming' options in SMAC's diplo assembly...Launch Solar Shade or Heat Ice Caps. If those could be implemented, it would open up other possibilities, with varying effects on planet's environment, and appropriate "Ecology" flavor that encouraged or discouraged different factions in their votes (Fungicide Ban [Prevents application of Fungicide promotion for formers, prevents existing promotions from functioning], Fungus Preservation Laws [Prevents "Remove Fungus" mission for any tile that is touching less than 4 other fungus tiles], Nano Enrichment [begins a planet-wide program of altering soil chemistry towards terran norms with nanites, increasing all food yields and forest spread while seriuosly miffing the ecology], and so on)


It seems that others have a pretty heightened grasp of metals and construction than I do, so I'm going to trust a lot of what's being said.


My metallurgical knowledge is limited to internet sources; but for a science fiction scenario it feels wrong to be element-specific. What about Beryllium? That's used in significant amounts, in numerous applications from telecommunications to aerospace, but it probably wouldn't make a list of specific elements to use as strategic resources. A big part of this is players would say "Beryllium....how am I supposed to know what to use *that* for?", and have to run to the SMACopedia to read a paragraph on how awesome Beryllium is and why they need it to build their flechette defense system.


I smell an easter egg... :P


Blame woodelf for the 6-legged sheep comment, it's from that Mindworm tube building graphic thread.


I'm thinking this is a "when". While I agree that having a player build improvements that just build carrots over green beens is overkill, I think that there should at least be the option to start "living off the native land". The idea of Planet defending itself (which has been discussed before) from threats in this light could be how the food is foraged. One improvement might be more Planet-friendly than another, although would have other disadvantages.

I can't find the post, but one thing mentioned was that in order to achieve a "don't piss off planet" vibe, there could be a few different types of natural Flora, some bad (poisonous, probably would lower health for the plot, among other things), some good (+ health or + food). You can always plant good flora, assuming you have the right setup, but flora can spawn near your base or spread (similar to forests in Civ4), and will be "good" or "bad" depending on how planet-friendly you have been thus far.


Innately hostile plant life sounds interesting, and I quite like the fungus mechanic in SMAC. It's nasty when you start, but one possible path of exploitation is to increase your PLANET rating and head for techs that improve yields in the Fungus, even planting fungus to take advantage of this. In that, I see what you mean, but I think that the very act of planting "good" flora over "bad" flora should piss off the ecology, since you're fiddling with the balance. Perhaps it would be less of an effect than building farms with Terran flora/fauna in them.
It might do to set out several paths for the player, with some intermingling: Terraforming, Hybridizing, and Adapting. You can Terraform things towards Earth, along the lines of Farms/Condensors/Mirrors/Boreholes from SMAC, which really screws with the ecology but has big rewards. You can Hybridize and engineer terran flora and fauna with alien flora and fauna to create a middle ground, which is reflected in a "tree farm" sort of economy seen in SMAC, but which would also include farms, or making hostile resources less hostile. You can also Adapt your own colonists to live off native life, IE the aforementioned fungus path.


I'm sure that more fun than seeing these creative life forms is being able to control them!


Absolutely, and I probably should have included that. Later technologies would allow for those nasty barbarians from early game to be homegrown as tame military units with later biotech.



Basically, I think we could really come up with anything, and so long as we can sell it to the players, then it's possible that those who colonize Planet would be able to sell it to the colonists.


That's the creative possibilities part, and it's wide open. The Glowrocks thing reminds me of the notion of the modern fad; in the same way that Ivory and Fur are obsoleted by later manufacturing technologies in vanilla Civ, perhaps some luxuries could be "Fad Items", useful for a certain amount of time before falling out of favor. One might go so far as to make "fad luxuries" into its own mechanic...every time a new social technology is discovered for the first time, a new resource is picked as a fad luxury and an old resource is phased out as a fad luxury, while the underlying uses for the resources still apply. Sure, Razorbeaks can be fun pets, but they are SOOOO last cycle.


A unity pod would be the obvious replacement for goodie huts, but I think that impact craters could work too. The graphics might be a bit strange, but the gameplay would work out. Perhaps impact craters show where future resources may lie, providing players a reason for developing near them, similar to how players tend to develop near a mountain thinking that there's a possibility of finding iron when they gain the necessary resource? I really can't tell if this would be a good thing or a bad thing, which I would lead to believe that it's probably a bad thing, but I thought I'd throw it out there anyway.


Civ's default city recommendation system (Blue circles indicating where an AI would prioritize settlement) already seems to take into account invisible resources, so it does seem to be sensible to me to create something to show that there will be a resource there one day. I don't know if that something should always be an impact crater, though, as I would imagine the "material" resources as being visible practically from the start, with only the "Living" commodities as requiring research to properly use.

The impact crater does sound interesting in terms of having a "different" graphic for unity pods that aren't actually unity pods...SMAC liked to throw little weird anomalies instead of the expected unity pod at you. Oh, we thought it was a unity pod, and it totally looked like one from a distance, but its actually an alien artifact/warp rift/nest of mind worms. Different graphics for different exploration possibilities would be nice (One possible result of 'exploring' an impact crater might be "There are a higher quantity of Heavy Metals in this impact site than orbital prospecting indicated; a new resource has been discovered!").


I like your thinking. I'm not sure I have the mind capable of coming up with the actual names or definitions, but if you have any ideas on how the resource system might be modified slightly from Civ4, feel free to talk about them. Say if something works neat in your head, but would require strategic resources to work differently, it can be arranged.


I think Civ4 already has most of the necessary systems in place for use of resources; if anything, what needs tweaking is the Strategic Resource system, in which one copper resource supplies an infinite number of Axemen. There are already a lot of modcomps out that can help that. I think the best approach with strategic resources in relation to units is this: They do not relate to units. Instead, tie them exclusively with buildings. Factories are more efficient with a source of Heavy Metals, allowing you to produce more. You can already do this with existing XML tags, thanks to the Ironworks. In addition, more complex units should require manufacturing infrastructure; a size one base with no buildings shouldn't be producing a top-of-the-line Needlejet, no matter how many turns it takes. Instead, have certain types of units require buildings, in the same manner of FFH, or at least have them dramatically easier to churn out given those buildings. A step further would be giving buildings a UnitDomain-specific production modifier tag, as well as a UnitDomain-specific resource production modifier tag.



Here's an example of how all that comes together. The Hive has access to Heavy Metals and Light Metals. They are going to build a Robotic Assembly Plant, which, once completed, will receive production bonuses from both Heavy Metal and Light Metal resources. Next, they're going to pump out a Needlejet, which requires at least 1 of X different possible facilities (lets say an Aerospace Complex, Robotic Assembly Plant, and Nanoreplicator...since it has one, it can be built, although it would receive additional benefits from other buildings). The Needlejet doesn't itself require Heavy Metals or Light Metals, but it is built faster because the Assembly Plant is supplied with them. Let's say that Yang built an Aerospace complex instead of the Assembly Plant. The Aerospace complex in this example wouldn't provide a "generic" production bonus for both types of metals, but instead would provide an Air Domain specific construction bonus when supplied with Light Metals; and a much higher bonus at that. The Needlejet builds much faster under such circumstances, because the facility is more specialized. In this situation, the Aerospace applications of Light Metals as opposed to Heavy Metals are represented in tradeoffs between buildings, rather than simply saying "This unit needs this resource, or you can't build it."


A simpler alternative, and one which is tossed around a lot (I saw some threads on apolyton to the effect), is to make strategic resources increase the speed with which units are built. It might be a more viable, albeit (from my perspective) less interesting approach.

In EITHER approach, strategic resources do not represent the only source of something: rather, they represent a region in which that resource is easily accessible or of exceptional quality. They should under no circumstances prevent a faction from building something, as that definitely goes against the character of a SMAC sort of mod.

I did like the planetary 'terraforming' options in SMAC's diplo assembly...Launch Solar Shade or Heat Ice Caps. If those could be implemented, it would open up other possibilities, with varying effects on planet's environment, and appropriate "Ecology" flavor that encouraged or discouraged different factions in their votes (Fungicide Ban [Prevents application of Fungicide promotion for formers, prevents existing promotions from functioning], Fungus Preservation Laws [Prevents "Remove Fungus" mission for any tile that is touching less than 4 other fungus tiles], Nano Enrichment [begins a planet-wide program of altering soil chemistry towards terran norms with nanites, increasing all food yields and forest spread while seriuosly miffing the ecology], and so on)



These could all be done, but since they're related to diplomacy, I'm probably going to try to keep it in mind for later, since it would be a big change.



Innately hostile plant life sounds interesting, and I quite like the fungus mechanic in SMAC. It's nasty when you start, but one possible path of exploitation is to increase your PLANET rating and head for techs that improve yields in the Fungus, even planting fungus to take advantage of this. In that, I see what you mean, but I think that the very act of planting "good" flora over "bad" flora should piss off the ecology, since you're fiddling with the balance. Perhaps it would be less of an effect than building farms with Terran flora/fauna in them.


I think we were only really thinking being able to plant good fungus. Bad fungus is just something that pops up, and if you don't mess with it, it will become good after awhile.


It might do to set out several paths for the player, with some intermingling: Terraforming, Hybridizing, and Adapting. You can Terraform things towards Earth, along the lines of Farms/Condensors/Mirrors/Boreholes from SMAC, which really screws with the ecology but has big rewards. You can Hybridize and engineer terran flora and fauna with alien flora and fauna to create a middle ground, which is reflected in a "tree farm" sort of economy seen in SMAC, but which would also include farms, or making hostile resources less hostile. You can also Adapt your own colonists to live off native life, IE the aforementioned fungus path.


And I think a lot of this could be wrapped into the concept of each player's Planet rating (whether it is a visible number or something that is kept track of in the SDK but not shown to the player), which is lowered/heightened through using Civics, creating eco-friendly/hazardous buildings and improvements, etc.), and also could do a part of the global Planet rating (similar to FFH's "Armageddon counter").



That's the creative possibilities part, and it's wide open. The Glowrocks thing reminds me of the notion of the modern fad; in the same way that Ivory and Fur are obsoleted by later manufacturing technologies in vanilla Civ, perhaps some luxuries could be "Fad Items", useful for a certain amount of time before falling out of favor. One might go so far as to make "fad luxuries" into its own mechanic...every time a new social technology is discovered for the first time, a new resource is picked as a fad luxury and an old resource is phased out as a fad luxury, while the underlying uses for the resources still apply. Sure, Razorbeaks can be fun pets, but they are SOOOO last cycle.


I think that's a neat idea. I'm not sure how well it would fit into the idea of creating a SMAC world. Perhaps it's just me thinking that a future civilization would probably be above consumerism :P



Civ's default city recommendation system (Blue circles indicating where an AI would prioritize settlement) already seems to take into account invisible resources, so it does seem to be sensible to me to create something to show that there will be a resource there one day.

Actually, it doesn't. The only thing it will "cheat" on is if the tile itself has a bonus. When the player or ai is searching for a spot can see it or not, it looks at the surrounding plots of the tile it's checking for but only takes bonuses into account if it can currently see it. So, it doesn't take into account bonuses that the player can't see except for that one center plot it's checking.


I don't know if that something should always be an impact crater, though, as I would imagine the "material" resources as being visible practically from the start, with only the "Living" commodities as requiring research to properly use.

The impact crater does sound interesting in terms of having a "different" graphic for unity pods that aren't actually unity pods...SMAC liked to throw little weird anomalies instead of the expected unity pod at you. Oh, we thought it was a unity pod, and it totally looked like one from a distance, but its actually an alien artifact/warp rift/nest of mind worms. Different graphics for different exploration possibilities would be nice (One possible result of 'exploring' an impact crater might be "There are a higher quantity of Heavy Metals in this impact site than orbital prospecting indicated; a new resource has been discovered!").


That's true enough. SMAC even had that where a unity pod might form a resource after hitting it. Would sure give another reason to explore first. I could also imagine impact craters being at the bottom of oceans as well. That would save us from having to think of how to get the graphics embedded into the ground, unless of course the water runs out. :P



I think Civ4 already has most of the necessary systems in place for use of resources; if anything, what needs tweaking is the Strategic Resource system, in which one copper resource supplies an infinite number of Axemen. There are already a lot of modcomps out that can help that. I think the best approach with strategic resources in relation to units is this: They do not relate to units. Instead, tie them exclusively with buildings. Factories are more efficient with a source of Heavy Metals, allowing you to produce more. You can already do this with existing XML tags, thanks to the Ironworks. In addition, more complex units should require manufacturing infrastructure; a size one base with no buildings shouldn't be producing a top-of-the-line Needlejet, no matter how many turns it takes. Instead, have certain types of units require buildings, in the same manner of FFH, or at least have them dramatically easier to churn out given those buildings. A step further would be giving buildings a UnitDomain-specific production modifier tag, as well as a UnitDomain-specific resource production modifier tag.



That all looks good to me. This could also be interesting from the NLF's as combat units perspective. If we used a sort of evolution-tree, players creating an all-NLF army could forgo the need to create large buildings to create higher-up units, which would give us leeway to allow some penalties for Planet players who don't get their daily recommended amount of planet-destroying manufacturing power :P



A simpler alternative, and one which is tossed around a lot (I saw some threads on apolyton to the effect), is to make strategic resources increase the speed with which units are built. It might be a more viable, albeit (from my perspective) less interesting approach.


I like the first idea better, which is strange since I would think I would go for the simpler approach here. The reason is because in order to get a bonus, you need the bonus AND the building to process the bonus into something useful.

If I read this correctly, heavy metals would be used (with other buildings) to increase ground force productivity (perhaps submersible sea units as well?) and light metals would be used for air and, I would assume, sea. Just for my own curiosity, what type of metals would be better for out-of-the-atmosphere ships?



In EITHER approach, strategic resources do not represent the only source of something: rather, they represent a region in which that resource is easily accessible or of exceptional quality. They should under no circumstances prevent a faction from building something, as that definitely goes against the character of a SMAC sort of mod.

I'm not sure how it goes against the character of a SMAC sort of mod, but I agree with the idea anyway.

I think we were only really thinking being able to plant good fungus. Bad fungus is just something that pops up, and if you don't mess with it, it will become good after awhile.

I thought you had meant specific sorts of resources; I do like the idea of an "avenging fungus" being different than normal fungus, and it fits well.


And I think a lot of this could be wrapped into the concept of each player's Planet rating (whether it is a visible number or something that is kept track of in the SDK but not shown to the player), which is lowered/heightened through using Civics, creating eco-friendly/hazardous buildings and improvements, etc.), and also could do a part of the global Planet rating (similar to FFH's "Armageddon counter").


Increasing the Flowering Counter idea to represent planetwide terraforming decisions would be a great implementation of their effect on the environment. Connecting Planet Rating not only to fungus and worms but to other improvements would be very interesting, and I think a related possibility is a slight retooling of the Planet and Industry Ratings. A negative planet rating would represent an attitude of "We're terraforming this land to be like Earth." instead of an attitude of "We're polluting and don't really care.", as it is represented in SMAC. What this would also mean is that having a negative Planet rating would improve a player's ability to terraform.
A positive planet rating would signify "We're learning to live in harmony with Planet as it is." How this relates to the Industry trait: A positive Industry rating, in addition to providing more production, would cause more pollution. Thus, while a positive Planet rating will have a strong mediating effect on a positive industry rating's pollution (due to restraints and understanding of the ecology), having a negative Planet rating *and* a positive Industry rating could cause serious ecological damage, between the pollution and the terraforming.
So: A "Terraformer" player will want a low Planet rating for their purposes since they're going to be clearing out all that fungus anyhow, an "Adapter" player will want a high Planet rating for their purposes, and a "Hybrid" player will want something in between, since they're still improving land and terraforming (planting forests and farms), but at the same time they aren't as well equipped as the terraformer to fend off angry fungus, and thus can't afford it. Oddly enough, this has a lot of parallels to FFH's Good/Neutral/Evil system in regards to the counter's effects, and the creeping "hell territory" that the neutrals can't defend against.
Some of this won't work out quite so swell depending on how you deal with civics and social engineering, but that has its own thread I see ;)


I think that's a neat idea. I'm not sure how well it would fit into the idea of creating a SMAC world. Perhaps it's just me thinking that a future civilization would probably be above consumerism :P


Part of it struck me because I remembered some of the flavor text in a late-game interlude in SMAC, talking about a new dance fad sweeping the faction where people mime clawing at their eyes to simulate the motions seen by victims in a mindworm attack. And I certainly hope the Morganites aren't above consumerism...their whole faction is based on it! If a fad luxury system were implemented, one of the Morganite's special traits would be that they received double benefits from fad luxuries.


That's true enough. SMAC even had that where a unity pod might form a resource after hitting it. Would sure give another reason to explore first. I could also imagine impact craters being at the bottom of oceans as well. That would save us from having to think of how to get the graphics embedded into the ground, unless of course the water runs out. :P


Undersea discoveries? That would make the discovery of Deep Pressure Hulls a sort of exploration renaissance, as factions sent new Undersea Explorers to find all the neat impact craters on the ocean floor.


That all looks good to me. This could also be interesting from the NLF's as combat units perspective. If we used a sort of evolution-tree, players creating an all-NLF army could forgo the need to create large buildings to create higher-up units, which would give us leeway to allow some penalties for Planet players who don't get their daily recommended amount of planet-destroying manufacturing power :P


An NLF-reliant faction would also likely receive production and morale bonuses based more on their planet rating and the flowering counter, as was mentioned in that thread you linked...there is also FFH's mechanic for vampires feeding on populations to gain XP. Mindworms lay eggs when they burrow into people's brains, so perhaps an NLF army could "draft" units out of the citizenry, with better results when there are brood pits/bio labs/etc available, so that NLF users can use their buildings for more than just lifeform production bonuses.

-1 :mad: "Stop eating us!"


If I read this correctly, heavy metals would be used (with other buildings) to increase ground force productivity (perhaps submersible sea units as well?) and light metals would be used for air and, I would assume, sea. Just for my own curiosity, what type of metals would be better for out-of-the-atmosphere ships?


Heavy Metals would be mostly useful for buildings that provide "Generic Production", since they have a lot of industrial and construction applications but aren't favorable for modern "units" in a civ sense. They could also be used for any appropriately Heavy Unit, that could afford a lot of mass to compensate for 'weaker' armor, in exchange for cheaper costs; battleships come to mind.

Light Metals would be useful for any units, but it would provide the biggest bonuses for Aerospace and High Tech Manufacturing applications. So, a light, technologically advanced watercraft could benefit from them, but a hulking cruiser less so.

Radioactives are another key issue: they're vital for the Reactors that every unit uses in SMAC. So, it might make sense to add an additional XML tag for the building scheme: One which first checks for the presence of another building before applying its bonuses. I'll provide an example.


Zakharov wants to build a Cruiser using the latest and greatest technology out there, and an economical submarine. The units would look like this, in relation to resources and domain/etc:

Advanced Cruiser
-Domain: Naval
-Type: Cruiser
-Cost: 1500 Production
-Bonus Production Buildings (Needs one of these buildings to be produced effectively, although having more than one improves speed): Robotic Assembly Plant, Nanoreplicator, Naval Yard
-Dependent Production Buildings (When a Production Building is present, these buildings will increase build speed): Reactor Lab, Hi-Tech Lab

Basic Submersible
-Domain: Naval
-Type: Submarine
-Cost: 500 Production
-Bonus Production Buildings (Needs one of these buildings to be produced effectively, although having more than one improves speed): Robotic Assembly Plant, Nanoreplicator, Naval Yard
-Dependent Production Buildings (When a Production Building is present, these buildings will increase build speed): Reactor Lab

Now, a rundown of how all those buildings might affect production:

Generic Factories:
-Robotic Assembly Plant: +10% Production, +30% Production with Heavy Metal, +20% Production with Light Metal
-Nanoreplicator: +20% Production, +20% Production with Heavy Metal, +30% Production with Light Metal

Unit Factory:
-Naval Yard: +50% Naval Domain Production, +100% Naval Domain production with Heavy Metal

Special Facilities:
-Reactor Lab: +10% Unit Production, +25% Unit Production with Radioactives (Needs Factory)
-Hi-Tech Lab: +10% Unit Production, +25% Advanced Unit Production with Light Metals (Needs Factory)

SO:
The generic factories are there to produce anything and everything your colony needs. Those bonuses go to buildings, wonders, units, whatever. They specify which units that they will 'allow' construction of with something like <AllowedUnits>, in the same way that FFH buildings allow units to be built. They are versatile, but when compared to the domain-specific manufacturing facility, they fall well short of the mark.
The domain-specific factory, the naval yard in this case, specifies which units it allows construction of (in this case, *just* naval units, using the aforementioned tag), and also provides a hefty bonus to their assembly, with and without the "navy" flavored resource, Heavy Metals, although it does better with.
The "Special" facilities (forgive their generic names) are buildings that aren't intended to assemble units, but which can contribute to them *IF* such buildings are around. Instead of having the buildings specify the units they can build (since they can't), units would instead specify the "special facilities" that could help in their construction with something like <ProductionModifierBuildings>. The Reactor Lab would create the necessary power plants for the vessels faster than they would in the previously listed factories, freeing factory space up for speedier processing; more so if it is readily supplied with the necessary radioactives. Meanwhile, the Hi-Tech Lab would be useful only for building technologically advanced units, like the Advanced Cruiser of this example, and would only benefit from being supplied with Light Metals.

Result of all *THAT*:
-All units can benefit from factories supplied with Heavy and Light Metals.
-All units can benefit from Reactor Labs supplied with Radioactives, but only if a factory is around to help build those units.
-Naval units benefit most from Naval Yards supplied with Heavy Metals.
-The Advanced Cruiser potentially stands to benefit more from Light Metals than the Basic Submersible, because the Advanced Cruiser specifies the "Hi-Tech Lab" as a bonus production facility.


It looks more complex than it is, but it may be too much for a casual player to swallow. I'm obviously biased, since its coming from me.


I'm not sure how it goes against the character of a SMAC sort of mod, but I agree with the idea anyway.

SMAC didn't have any resources; it usually mentioned a *lack* of resources, and the need for artificial workarounds. Maybe I'm just stuck on the artificial fossil fuels thing. A SMAC mod using civ 4's resource system should, in my eyes, only allow resources to influence a faction's decisions on what to build, rather than determining them outright, as it is in vanilla civ.

A positive planet rating would signify "We're learning to live in harmony with Planet as it is." How this relates to the Industry trait: A positive Industry rating, in addition to providing more production, would cause more pollution. Thus, while a positive Planet rating will have a strong mediating effect on a positive industry rating's pollution (due to restraints and understanding of the ecology), having a negative Planet rating *and* a positive Industry rating could cause serious ecological damage, between the pollution and the terraforming.


This could work out. If we go with the Social Engineering, we'd have to redefine these two well, or it might cause confusion for former SMAC players. If we go with Civics, then we wouldn't have much of a problem: Somewhere (on the main screen, in city screens, in a "Planet" screen..) we'll have a little tidbit about how the player's Planet score is doing, and more importantly, what that means.

So: A "Terraformer" player will want a low Planet rating for their purposes since they're going to be clearing out all that fungus anyhow, an "Adapter" player will want a high Planet rating for their purposes, and a "Hybrid" player will want something in between, since they're still improving land and terraforming (planting forests and farms), but at the same time they aren't as well equipped as the terraformer to fend off angry fungus, and thus can't afford it.

I'm not sure about this. I would think that doing things that are related to Terraforming Planet to be more like Earth would affect your points, not the other way around. Unless you're saying a revolving system, where the more you terraform, the lower your score, and thus the more you can terraform?


Undersea discoveries? That would make the discovery of Deep Pressure Hulls a sort of exploration renaissance, as factions sent new Undersea Explorers to find all the neat impact craters on the ocean floor.

I've never really liked the idea of having to find new bonuses. So, if anything, this would probably just make resources that appeared on the bottom show up. Which means they would act more like resources than underwater goodie-huts.



An NLF-reliant faction would also likely receive production and morale bonuses based more on their planet rating and the flowering counter, as was mentioned in that thread you linked...there is also FFH's mechanic for vampires feeding on populations to gain XP. Mindworms lay eggs when they burrow into people's brains, so perhaps an NLF army could "draft" units out of the citizenry, with better results when there are brood pits/bio labs/etc available, so that NLF users can use their buildings for more than just lifeform production bonuses.

-1 :mad: "Stop eating us!"



If I understand you correctly, a citizen drafted in a city for a Planeteer could actually be fed to the NLF's to help them grow? I would implement this just to see that mad message :P

Alternatively, some Planet bonuses could be used as production factories similar to the metals idea, but with medicinal or horomonal growth uses for "Planet Resources". While the Metals Resources are specific to typical units, the Planet resources are specific to planet units.


So, it might make sense to add an additional XML tag for the building scheme: One which first checks for the presence of another building before applying its bonuses.


Not sure what you mean here. What is the "other" building to check for? If I recall correctly, you would make the bonuses cumulative.

The "Special" facilities (forgive their generic names)

No problem, I've already labeled Special Abilities and Special Damage Types :P

Instead of having the buildings specify the units they can build (since they can't), units would instead specify the "special facilities" that could help in their construction with something like <ProductionModifierBuildings>.


I believe what you're saying is that we can't put Unit references in the Buildings XML because Units are loaded after buildings. We could always use UnitClasses instead, which is loaded before buildings. However, I think in this case it's actually better to put the buildings that the unit's production is affected by actually in the Unit XML anyway.

It looks more complex than it is, but it may be too much for a casual player to swallow. I'm obviously biased, since its coming from me.

I think that with some touching up and simplifying it down to just a few rules, it wouldn't be to bad. For example, when describing the effects, I think it would be ok to not have to differentiate between "Generic Buildings" and "Specialized buildings". Perhaps just be able to say each unit's production effectiveness is increased depending on the power of the buildings in the city that can affect it, and that the power of the buildings in the city are increased depending on the resources connected to it.

However, this would provide complex combinations to be formed. In your example, some buildings get better bonuses from Heavy metals, while others get better from Light metals, still more get their best bonuses from Radioactives. Perhaps if there were a way of simplifying this, such as having the different domains have their own group of buildings. Each group would have (with much better names, of course) a normal, a secondary, and an advanced building. Using completely unsmac-ified naming conventions, 'cuz I'm not good at stuff like that...


Ground Units

Normal Barracks
Secondary Barracks
Advanced Barracks

Sea Units

Normal Harbor
Secondary Harbor
Advanced Harmor



The idea is that if you understand how what type of resource is needed to make "Normal Barracks" production best accelerated, you'll know what resource is needed to make "Normal Harbor" buildings best accelerated.

Of course, this would severely cut down on our ability to tweak it to our wants, and I'm sure no-one would agree on the naming conventions. However, I believe that one of the things that SMAC got wrong (and so did a lot of other sci-fi items) is that the names didn't adequately tell us what it was describing in many cases. I'm not recommending we use "Normal", "Secondary", and "Advanced", but if we come up with a convention that can give players a hint as to how to best run that building, we would cut the amount that the player would have to learn to just one domain and the others would follow suit.

Now, I don't have any problem with making them all separate. After all, I think as a SMAC mod we're not looking for the recently-converted RTS crowd. This is just another option that I feel responsible to throw onto the table :P




Finally, I'm still split about whether or not this idea would benefit from limiting completely unit production to only cities with necessary buildings (in other words, enforcing building prereqs for units). On one hand, it makes sense that a new city shouldn't be able to start building hyper-advanced needlejets, on the other hand I would think that the need for resources and the production speed enhancing buildings (plus the fact that I don't think I've ever had to complain about new cities building large units too fast ;P) would be enough to simulate that effect, without having to go so far as to actually force a player to make the building. Especially since I imagine a role for tactical bombing, where you can possibly take out a certain building of a city. Take out the one needed to build the unit, and although you have a full infrastructure for producing the unit, you just don't have the data for the blueprints in the building that just was bombed, so you're completely stuck. I think we should avoid that. Having multiple OR prereqs would help, but I think you'd still hit the same problem with a large-enough city.

Ok, so I guess I'm not exactly "split". :P

Ugh, I wanted to keep this one short, too.

I'm not sure about this. I would think that doing things that are related to Terraforming Planet to be more like Earth would affect your points, not the other way around. Unless you're saying a revolving system, where the more you terraform, the lower your score, and thus the more you can terraform?


I meant that Planet rating would represent a philosophy or approach, and that in turn affected things like Terraforming rates; in retrospect, I can see how that doesn't make as much sense as being the other way around. Perhaps planet rating should be removed from the social engineering realm altogether and tied in with the Armageddon (flowering) Clock instead, on a faction-by-faction basis, as was suggested elsewhere. Thus, all terraforming a given faction does decreases their planet rating (potentially making future terraforming easier, in a sort of revolving system like you said) while also increasing the flowering clock planetwide.


If I understand you correctly, a citizen drafted in a city for a Planeteer could actually be fed to the NLF's to help them grow? I would implement this just to see that mad message :P

Alternatively, some Planet bonuses could be used as production factories similar to the metals idea, but with medicinal or horomonal growth uses for "Planet Resources". While the Metals Resources are specific to typical units, the Planet resources are specific to planet units.


Yes and yes. It might also be interesting to tie in the number of Fungus squares in the city radius with NLF production. There are already methods in place to check for numbers of features (forests/jungles), right? Would it be possible to change the effect from health/unhealth to a production increase for a specific unit domain?


Not sure what you mean here. What is the "other" building to check for? If I recall correctly, you would make the bonuses cumulative.


The other building to check for would be *any* type of base production facility, either a generic factory or a domain-specific factory. This step would only be used if it was decided that there shouldn't be "hard" pre-req for units to need a certain type of building, but still wanted to preserve a sense of "units are built much more efficiently when you have a place to build them".


I think that with some touching up and simplifying it down to just a few rules, it wouldn't be to bad. For example, when describing the effects, I think it would be ok to not have to differentiate between "Generic Buildings" and "Specialized buildings". Perhaps just be able to say each unit's production effectiveness is increased depending on the power of the buildings in the city that can affect it, and that the power of the buildings in the city are increased depending on the resources connected to it....

...Of course, this would severely cut down on our ability to tweak it to our wants, and I'm sure no-one would agree on the naming conventions. However, I believe that one of the things that SMAC got wrong (and so did a lot of other sci-fi items) is that the names didn't adequately tell us what it was describing in many cases. I'm not recommending we use "Normal", "Secondary", and "Advanced", but if we come up with a convention that can give players a hint as to how to best run that building, we would cut the amount that the player would have to learn to just one domain and the others would follow suit.


Prereq and inter-related buildings are both meant to be flavorful; if they don't add enough to gameplay, they shouldn't be in. I normally wouldn't think of prereqs as being a good idea, but the system works very well in FFH, where each "land" unit line has a specific prereq building needed for building or upgrading any unit in the line.

For a simpler direction than prereqs and inter-relation, you could just have 2 archetypes of production-boosting facilities: Generic Factories and Domain-Specific Factories. Generic Factories are the Forge and Factory of vanilla civ 4; Domain-Specific Factories are the Drydocks of vanilla civ 4. In this case, both would rely mostly on resource availability for bonus production, rather than being "powered".

Under this setup, both types of factories could conceivably receive upgrades throughout the game to represent improving fabrication techs. The tree would be rather simple, and look something like this:

Original Building: Assembly Plant
First Upgrade Line --> Automation: Assembly Plant --> Matter Converters: Assembly Plant
Second Upgrade Line --> Nanite Quality Control: Assembly Plant --> Nanoreplicators: Assembly Plant

With the default factory being more productive with a given resource, and the more advanced additions requiring gradually more Light Metals and Radioactives to be effective. Each factory would have a set of "upgrades", either the same listed above, or varying for each factory (in which case the tree might need simplification into one upgrade line for each non-generic factory)

Generic Factory = Assembly Plant (Theme: Heavy Metals)
Generic Factory = Reactor Plant (Theme: Radioactives)
Generic Factory = Electronics Plant (Theme: Light Metals)
Infantry Factory = Armoury (Theme: Light Metals)
Vehicle Factory = Vehicle Plant (Theme: Light/Heavy Metals)
Air Factory = Hangar (Theme: Light Metals)
Naval Factory = Shipyard (Theme: Heavy Metals)
Space Factory = Launch Facility (Theme: Light Metals/Radioactives)


Ugh, I wanted to keep this one short, too.

I suppose it isn't any fun when someone comes in and bombs your ball-bearing plant, rendering you unable to produce new units that need those ball bearings...

I meant that Planet rating would represent a philosophy or approach, and that in turn affected things like Terraforming rates; in retrospect, I can see how that doesn't make as much sense as being the other way around. Perhaps planet rating should be removed from the social engineering realm altogether and tied in with the Armageddon (flowering) Clock instead, on a faction-by-faction basis, as was suggested elsewhere. Thus, all terraforming a given faction does decreases their planet rating (potentially making future terraforming easier, in a sort of revolving system like you said) while also increasing the flowering clock planetwide.


Well, whenever I say "Planet Rating" or "Planet Score", I'm thinking about a variable which works like the Planet Counter, but instead of globally it is rather for each specific Player. For example. Deidre might accumulate a very large Planet rating after building a bunch of pro-eco buildings and helping destroy anti-eco ones. If SE is used, a high "Planet" category and a low "Industry" category might help to improve your Player Planet Rating. Of course, if Civics are used we don't have this discussion :P



Yes and yes. It might also be interesting to tie in the number of Fungus squares in the city radius with NLF production. There are already methods in place to check for numbers of features (forests/jungles), right? Would it be possible to change the effect from health/unhealth to a production increase for a specific unit domain?


Not sure if there is such a function, but that could be easily accomplished. As long as it would be visually appealing to have a player's tiles completely surrounded by fungus, which I assume would eventually be an outcome unless we made a reason for it not to :P



The other building to check for would be *any* type of base production facility, either a generic factory or a domain-specific factory. This step would only be used if it was decided that there shouldn't be "hard" pre-req for units to need a certain type of building, but still wanted to preserve a sense of "units are built much more efficiently when you have a place to build them".


I guess it's just a matter of implementation, which I can handle. Typically, in cases like these, when you're looking for production bonuses, you take a look at ALL the buildings on the plot, see which ones would have the effect, and sum up their total. Even though you know that there are only three specific ones, to make it more generic and allow for not having to change the code when you add the XML to another building later, you check every possible building anyway.


Prereq and inter-related buildings are both meant to be flavorful; if they don't add enough to gameplay, they shouldn't be in. I normally wouldn't think of prereqs as being a good idea, but the system works very well in FFH, where each "land" unit line has a specific prereq building needed for building or upgrading any unit in the line.


I'm not saying they don't add to gameplay, but rather they might add to confusion. Of course, we could always just say that the target audience of our mod are those willing to weed through all the different building types, will take the time to learn the system, and we'd be done with it. That's probably a good question to ask now over a month into development :P


Under this setup, both types of factories could conceivably receive upgrades throughout the game to represent improving fabrication techs. The tree would be rather simple, and look something like this:

Original Building: Assembly Plant
First Upgrade Line --> Automation: Assembly Plant --> Matter Converters: Assembly Plant
Second Upgrade Line --> Nanite Quality Control: Assembly Plant --> Nanoreplicators: Assembly Plant


I'm not so sure about "upgrading" factories, I liked your idea of having the factories be able to be separate, so if you wanted to you could skip a step by making separate buildings. But that's just my opinion, I'd like to hear another's.


With the default factory being more productive with a given resource, and the more advanced additions requiring gradually more Light Metals and Radioactives to be effective. Each factory would have a set of "upgrades", either the same listed above, or varying for each factory (in which case the tree might need simplification into one upgrade line for each non-generic factory)

Generic Factory = Assembly Plant (Theme: Heavy Metals)
Generic Factory = Reactor Plant (Theme: Radioactives)
Generic Factory = Electronics Plant (Theme: Light Metals)
Infantry Factory = Armoury (Theme: Light Metals)
Vehicle Factory = Vehicle Plant (Theme: Light/Heavy Metals)
Air Factory = Hangar (Theme: Light Metals)
Naval Factory = Shipyard (Theme: Heavy Metals)
Space Factory = Launch Facility (Theme: Light Metals/Radioactives)



Ok, reading over that list, I see why you originally made the plants a sci-fi theme, it's not as much fun when they're simple to understand like that, it takes away their sci-fi aura.

Are we looking into the possibility of producing seeds in the cities and then having our terraformers plant wheat, corn, or rice eventually? There is a modcomp that I linked to in some thread where resources are planted.

We'd need checks and balances so you couldn't plant too many Earth resources in a concentrated area or maybe there would be a chance they didn't take or they eventually get consumed and need to be replanted. We could also have terrain need to go fallow or have terraformers fertilize or ammend the soil before Earth crops can be planted.

I'd think planting and harvesting grapes to eventually make real Earth wine would make the people very happy. Same with barely or hops.

Too complicated or not a direction we're headed?

Are we looking into the possibility of producing seeds in the cities and then having our terraformers plant wheat, corn, or rice eventually? There is a modcomp that I linked to in some thread where resources are planted.

Too complicated or not a direction we're headed?

Not too complicated, but I just don't like the "seed" idea. I'd like to hear what others think though.

To restate what I said earlier in the thread, I really don't like the idea of representing the importation of earth crops or cattle. Diet was far more important to health in Civ 4 than it would be in Planetfall, since the colonists have a solid understanding of nutrition. I think it is better to represent earth crops/cattle with buildings and non-resource-dependent improvements. Hydroponic farms in bases early on, but not "Tomato Hydroponic Farm" and "Wheat Hydroponic Farm". Regular Farm improvements outside bases once the appropriate technology is discovered, but not building farms on top of "Earth Food Type X" or "Alien Food Type Y". The same goes for cattle: if the colonists are cloning terran cattle using genetic blueprints, it should be represented through pasture improvements rather than specific animal resources, if it is represented at all.
Summary: I think any resource-based mechanic for imported flora and fauna is more suited to a colonization scenario taking place in the 16th or 17th century.

I'm fine with that. I'd rather have the colonists discover safe uses for existing fauna I guess.

I didn't see much people other than GRM, woodelf and I, but I think the main ideas of strategy resource are enough that we can put it to a vote, just to get others opinions, since I'm sure the long posts are what drove people away from the discussion.

Here is how i would summarize the discussion thus far (i.e. there would be room for adding more stuff on, such as a "seed" system, if the general populace deems it so :P)


Strategy resources would be many different resources that would be divided into a few classes. In this example, we'll use the classes of "Light Metals", "Heavy Metals", "Radioactives", "Hydrocarbons", and "Silicates".
Unlike Civ4, no units depend on Strategic resources to be built. However, strategic resources, when linked to a city with the proper building, can speed the development of certain units (similar to how strategic resources can speed wonder construction). For example, a needlejet could receive production bonuses if a Reactor Lab is present in a city where a Light Metal strategic resource is connected.
Buildings that give bonuses could give relatively weak bonuses generically (many or all units being affected) or stronger bonuses more specifically (to a smaller amount of units). Specific bonuses could be determined by unit class, domain, or other factors.


Would this be a valid description to put to a vote?

On genericizing resources: would only the metals be under this, or all types of resources? Just for the sake of consistency, you know... :cute:
In Civ4, units depending on resources simulates more or less the whole chain from mining the ore to constructing the stuff in an appropriate assembly spot.
What GRM advocates here is putting an extra step or two in between the point a type of unit is researched and can be produced. Extra micromanaging if you ask me. I would more be in favour of a system where for instance a generic "Electronics Lab/Workshop" allows hightech stuff like SA's, and a generic "Assembly Plant" allows construction of units.
If we go the route from a building/unitclass, there's no end to the amount of production facilities we have to dream up.

As on GRM's objection to using earth's flora/fauna graphics, it would mostly be a way to show the discrepancy between the settled and terraformed lands compared the the native kept lands. I feel this would give a player a profound look on how his/her colony is expanding as an Earthclone (or not if he/she goes the Planet way). I agree on his point that there's no real need to let earth crops give extra health for each and every type. But what I would advocate is perhaps a system that per latitude/raininess of the plots determines what kind of crop/cattle will be shown on the map.

Yes. I prefer the time bonus when you have a strategic resource as opposed to needing it entirely. The resource itself represents a massive amount, not the only stuff available. Saving time and maybe cost works for me.

And I would think luxury and health stuff would be treated as is. :health: and :) for those unless we're going away from health...

On genericizing resources: would only the metals be under this, or all types of resources? Just for the sake of consistency, you know...


My proposal was only to make Strategic resources generic, and to make luxuries and 'health' resources (IE Alien Flora and Fauna of various sorts) specific. To look at it another way: the familiar things (Iron, Copper, Aluminium, Uranium, etc.) should be made generic to help suspend disbelief while simultaneously taking some focus away from them, while the new things (Alien Animals/Spores/Fungal Buds/Fungal Narcotics) should be specified and made interesting.


In Civ4, units depending on resources simulates more or less the whole chain from mining the ore to constructing the stuff in an appropriate assembly spot.
What GRM advocates here is putting an extra step or two in between the point a type of unit is researched and can be produced. Extra micromanaging if you ask me. I would more be in favour of a system where for instance a generic "Electronics Lab/Workshop" allows hightech stuff like SA's, and a generic "Assembly Plant" allows construction of units.
If we go the route from a building/unitclass, there's no end to the amount of production facilities we have to dream up.


I proposed several systems, the first one simply requiring a production facility present before units can be built, and the second (small note) simply accelerating unit production through resources instead of requiring them. That is almost definitely the simplest option, and still seems sensible to me.


As on GRM's objection to using earth's flora/fauna graphics, it would mostly be a way to show the discrepancy between the settled and terraformed lands compared the the native kept lands. I feel this would give a player a profound look on how his/her colony is expanding as an Earthclone (or not if he/she goes the Planet way). I agree on his point that there's no real need to let earth crops give extra health for each and every type. But what I would advocate is perhaps a system that per latitude/raininess of the plots determines what kind of crop/cattle will be shown on the map.

I wasn't really concerned about the graphics: I was concerned about the bonuses to health and food production. I don't think we need to carry over a system of "The colonists have planted rice here, so it is +2 food as opposed to +3 food for the wheat over there, and we can't plant these right next to each other for gameplay purposes, and we had better optimize which types we plant to ensure we get the most health out of it and have the most available to trade". If it's purely graphical, I don't see any problem with having farms look like wheat farms in some terrains/elevations/latitudes and maize farms in others, but I don't think there should be any gameplay differentiation between them.

Edit: On the topic of luxuries, are there any other thoughts on the "Fad Luxury" idea (Post 53)?

In Civ4, units depending on resources simulates more or less the whole chain from mining the ore to constructing the stuff in an appropriate assembly spot.
What GRM advocates here is putting an extra step or two in between the point a type of unit is researched and can be produced.

I was under the belief that there would not be a building required to build specific units. I took it as specific and generic buildings give specific and generic bonuses of production. No resources of buildings are needed to build units, all they do is speed production.

Extra micromanaging if you ask me. I would more be in favour of a system where for instance a generic "Electronics Lab/Workshop" allows hightech stuff like SA's, and a generic "Assembly Plant" allows construction of units.


That could be a possibility.


If we go the route from a building/unitclass, there's no end to the amount of production facilities we have to dream up.


That's true. Domain might be a better choice, as there would only be a few. We could also create a new tag specifically for these if we want something in between, but I think domain or unit combat type should fit this fine.


As on GRM's objection to using earth's flora/fauna graphics, it would mostly be a way to show the discrepancy between the settled and terraformed lands compared the the native kept lands. I feel this would give a player a profound look on how his/her colony is expanding as an Earthclone (or not if he/she goes the Planet way). I agree on his point that there's no real need to let earth crops give extra health for each and every type. But what I would advocate is perhaps a system that per latitude/raininess of the plots determines what kind of crop/cattle will be shown on the map.

I'm just not sure about the cattle. I don't think there would be large animals on board the ship. There are other, more efficient ways of getting the nutrients we get such as protein. We're only a half-century or so in the future, the ship that is being launched isn't exactly the Enterprise. Also, how much space could be in those escape pods?

Crops I can understand, but I don't like the idea of Earth-animals. I feel it would take away from the futuristic feeling.



And I would think luxury and health stuff would be treated as is. :health: and :) for those unless we're going away from health...

Yeah, I also don't see changing luxury and health too much, but that doesn't mean I'm set on keeping it as it is. If a good idea came along I would go for it.

I'm just not sure about the cattle. I don't think there would be large animals on board the ship. There are other, more efficient ways of getting the nutrients we get such as protein. We're only a half-century or so in the future, the ship that is being launched isn't exactly the Enterprise. Also, how much space could be in those escape pods?

Crops I can understand, but I don't like the idea of Earth-animals. I feel it would take away from the futuristic feeling.

Genetic Blueprints from datalinks -> Cloning Techs -> Reconstructed Earth Animals.

There are a few problems: The datalinks don't have full entries for the animals, and mass cloning is a big endeavor, so cattle would have to come late in the game if they were to come at all.

Now, what use are they compared to grains, is a different matter. Imported Cattle would seem to me to be a liability on an alien world, as every added step in a food chain opens up the possibility of unexpected unpleasantries, including things like environmental toxins, or alien diseases. Even in a completely controlled environment, its an inefficient use of limited energy resources; animal products would be a luxury for the elite, or a high price meal ticket at a fancy space restaraunt, rather than a common foodstuff. Cattle, I think, might be better represented by a resource-providing wonder: its a taste of old earth, and all that.

Tofu? Solves everything.

I was looking to see what would need to be implemented to do production bonuses for building/resources, when I realized we would probably need to come up with whether we want to use unit/unitclasses/domain/unit combat types/other for the decider on how resources/buildings affect unit production.

GeoModder already made the point that going with unit or unit classes would probably be a ton of work, so I would recommend either domain types or unit combat types. I think unit combat types would be better off, since we have more leverage to change a unit's combat type than their domain if we need balancing.

Besides that issue, I think all those who have commented find that unit production bonuses are worthwhile, so I was hoping to just skip the vote and go to implementation tonight, since it's pretty small.

I know we're still up in the air for the other resources, so I would just be working on the strategic. Basically, it would be an XML tag for buildings that would have a bonus ("resource") and unit combat type / domain type / other and the modifier to their production.

To look at it another way: the familiar things (Iron, Copper, Aluminium, Uranium, etc.) should be made generic to help suspend disbelief

Well personally I feel making generic strategic resources would create disbelief. Personally I prefer concrete names so I can live in and roleplay in what I'm doing. "A Fusion Reactor requires Hydrogen" means more to me than "A Fusion Reactor requires Light Metals or something". I'd rather have no resources than generic resources.

Well personally I feel making generic strategic resources would create disbelief. Personally I prefer concrete names so I can live in and roleplay in what I'm doing. "A Fusion Reactor requires Hydrogen" means more to me than "A Fusion Reactor requires Light Metals or something". I'd rather have no resources than generic resources.

Fair enough; if more people have trouble with generic resources, I can understand it. But like I said in my first post in this thread, virtually every element forms a vital part of a futuristic industrial society's industry, and you can't implement 100+ resources. Also, a lot of the elements could be used interchangably or in different amounts for different applications. If we are limiting it to a certain number of resources, there should be a justificiation for it: perhaps Planet is completely littered with easily obtainable samples of all of the lighter metal elements, except for aluminium oxides, so aluminium makes the grade for a resource because, for one reason or another, it cannot be replaced with those easier to obtain samples. Perhaps plutonium, radium, actinium, and the rest of the naturally occuring radioactives are all completely absent on planet, and so only uranium makes the cut for a resource.

I too prefer to have reallife resources so to speak.
Not to break down your suggestin, GRM, but I like to keep things consistent and Native Planetresources would be too common if only called by generic names. It's part of the dreamy fluff that surrounds scifi.
As on the whole periodic table to be included: the few things I read about metals used in industrial equipment, there are always the most common ones that keep on popping up: iron, copper, gold, silver, aluminium, silicons,... most of the others seem to be interchangeable with those, altho at lower efficiency levels then for the final instrument.

First: in case there is any question on it, I am definitely not in favor of making non-strategic resources generic. I'm only concerned about elements.


As on the whole periodic table to be included: the few things I read about metals used in industrial equipment, there are always the most common ones that keep on popping up: iron, copper, gold, silver, aluminium, silicons,... most of the others seem to be interchangeable with those, altho at lower efficiency levels then for the final instrument.

For one, it isn't just industrial equipment, its units and buildings and components, and anything that strategic resources can be used for. Potential in-game uses easily cover the entire periodic table. I'll put it another way, in reference to Civ 4: one of the biggest failures of Civ 4 in representing the modern era is the handling of resources. It is perfectly suited to ancient and classical periods, but once you start to move up, it loses its viability. If it were to accurately represent the modern era, everything would require iron, coal, and aluminium, along with a lot of other 'invisible' resources. In civ, the way it is justified is that only 'economically significant' resources are represented, even though economically significant resources from ancient ages continue through into the modern.

In order for iron to be useful, it needs carbon. Coal, on earth. There isn't any on Planet, although I'm sure alternatives could be come up with, especially with synth fossil fuels. Copper can be replaced by Aluminium, Gold, or Silver for wiring and other electrical conductivity applications (The only thing copper would be used for in a futuristic industrial society), although Aluminium is less efficient and on earth, Gold and Silver are 'too valuable' here because of their monetary association. Silicates are already a generic resource that I proposed.

Silicates, Rare Earths, Precious Metals, Heavy Metals, Radioactives, Gases, ect could all be groups of resources. Why split hairs on gold or silver or platinum? I'd settle for classes of specific elements if they can be grouped.

I'm thinking for resources what a classification system. You could introduce the entire periodic table if you wanted, but these exact elements would be "fluff". The important part is that each resource would have a classification, of which we would probably only limit it to around 5, with GRM's Heavy/Light Metals etc. being an example. You might have 100 resources in the XML, of which maybe 20 are generated on any given map, and each class of resources would only have a few resources of it's type on the map.

That way, we could have the simplicity of only having five plus or minus a few resources with the fluff of adding as many distinct resources with story and background as we want for those who want to open up the Civilopedia and read about it.

I'm not sure if this completely would cover the "fluff" element, as it would still be pretty generic in what the exact resources do (just a name can only be so interesting, it's how it works that's interesting). Ideas such as the "fad" resource (although it was concieved for luxury, use a similar idea of making individual resources affect gameplay without having to hard-code what exactly that gameplay effect is) could be used to push forward knowing what's going on.

I did the classification. :)

:bowdown: Show us, please !

I did the classification. :)

Funny you say that. I thought you mean you did it and committed it to SVN. I was gonna' check it out and then find some way to scold you nicely about committing stuff without discussion. But, I guess you meant in the forum you did it :crazyeye:

Thankfully, while checking out the XML to see what you didn't do, I realized that there already is a tag for BonusClassType, which I was just about to start implementing under another name :P

Edit: PS my shell for my new computer just arrived, so don't be surprised if you don't see me until Monday :P j/k

A nice scolding. Very delicate to pull off. :p

Pasture animals are getting into the same thing as cottages (which I posted in the other thread a bit ago. Still getting caught up in all the discussions. Probably won't finish today.)

Anyway, a somewhat inimical alien planet, no grass to speak of. You can't just put up a fence and release cattle like you can on Earth.

Basic fact of agriculture vs pasture. Cattle (etc) require less labor but more acreage to support. On a cost/economic comparison, they are viable on Earth. On a new planet, they would simply be unfeasible. Especially one with things like mindworms. Beef etc would almost certainly be a luxury good. The poor cows would live their lives in pens inside the habitat city, and only a small amount of beef would result.

Everything else would be agriculture or synthetic and made in a vat. As woodelf said: Tofu.

I don't know. Just talking here. We need a good dose of realism, but on the other hand, it needs to come down to the gameplay. We can rationalise just about anything, if we need to.

Wodan

Basic fact of agriculture vs pasture. Cattle (etc) require less labor but more acreage to support. On a cost/economic comparison, they are viable on Earth. On a new planet, they would simply be unfeasible. Especially one with things like mindworms. Beef etc would almost certainly be a luxury good. The poor cows would live their lives in pens inside the habitat city, and only a small amount of beef would result.


This is more or less what I was getting at, although *nothing* is just out there walking around...unless your cows can eat grass through space suits. Planet's atmosphere is a gasping death for organisms that are used to breathing earth's atmosphere, according to Deirdre...Anything out on planet's surface is either genetically engineered to survive, has a rebreather suit, or is in a contained atmospheric building. It's fairly easy to say "oh, we fiddled with the respiratory processes of the grains so they can adapt to the new atmosphere". Not so much for cows, although genetic engineering would have to be pretty advanced to be recreating cows from incomplete genetic data.

I'm starting to think of potential flora/fauna resources; any ideas? For the benefit of anyone who hasn't seen them or has forgotten the specifics:


Observe the Razorbeak as it tends so carefully to the fungal blooms;
just the right bit from the yellow, then a swatch from the pink.
Follow the Glow Mites as they gather and organize the fallen spores.
What higher order guides their work? Mark my words: someone or something
is {managing} the ecology of this planet.



Although Planet's native life is based, like Earth's, on right-handed
DNA, and codes for all the same amino acids, the inevitable chemical
and structural differences from a billion years of evolution in an
alien environment render the native plant life highly poisonous
to humans. Juicy, ripe grenade fruits may look appealing, but a
mouthful of organonitrates will certainly change your mind in a hurry.


Now, I would prefer that most flora/fauna resources on planet be hostile or unseen at start, revealed early on, and useless (as resources, not as plots) until an appropriate facility has been constructed (Biology Labs, Research Hospitals, etc.)
The primary purpose of most of these resources would be providing bonuses to the above-mentioned buildings, rather than constructing units or buildings, or providing a direct benefit (Healthy, Happiness).

Flora Resources
Grenade Fruit (Jungle/Native Brush features, reskinned spices?)
Bloomingstalks (Fungus, modified sugar?)

Sea Truffles (colonial algae on the seafloor, reskinned Copper?)
Fungal Lillies (Blooms on sea fungus, reskinned cotton [warlords]?)
Spire Tree (carnivorous plant, modified timber resource [TAM mod, amongst others]?)


Fauna Resources
Razorbeak (Anywhere, would probably need to be from scratch)
Glow Mites (Fungus/Other Features, modified Wheat [sparkling texture]?)
Complacent Worms (Fungus, mindworms that do not react aggressively to other species, useful for training NLFs, probably need to be from scratch)

Shellwyrms (modified clam/crab for land)
Six-legged Sheep (Joke)
Landwurm (modified whale for land, if its doable...something to put in desert tiles)
Rock Strider (modified elephant, something to put in rough terrain)

So you're proposing to ignore the idea of Nutrients? Not disagreeing... just asking what your intention is.

Frankly, I wouldn't have a huge problem with that. Although, Nutrients more closely fits the concept of flood plains than it does a resource. We should probably consider that as an option. I don't think Planet should have any deserts... that's replaced by the "arid" concept. So, we could potentially retask floodplains, disassociate them from rivers, and let them be high-nutrient tiles. The graphics could be as easy as woodelf's excellent fungus he's doing now... just take the old nutrient symbol and clone it onto a normal "rainy" tile.

As for the concept of not having "plantation" resources at all, I'd say that fits in with the whole SMAC concept. We don't really need it, and your proposal makes a lot of sense.

Wodan

Actually, I've been paging through my old manual... there are a lot of new terrain tiles we'll have to create. Sargasso, Geothermal, Mount Planet, etc. (Yes, I know this is the wrong thread.) :)

Wodan

Edit: Unless you wanted to make them (or some of them) into resources. That would probably be a good consideration.

I think the general concensus was that landmarks were too interesting to leave out, or that at least a reasonable effort would go towards getting something along those lines in. And, on deserts, there are the Dunes, a landmark desert from SMAC. I didn't think floodplains would be going in, as they'd make Nutrients too easy to come by too early on.
As for Minerals/Nutrients/Energy bonus resources, I think it better to be more specific with the former and latter, and too easy to include the middle. Minerals will be represented with slightly (or a lot) more specific Strategic Resources, Energy will be abundant both from Base Facilities and Improvements, and Nutrients should be tough to come by early on. Perhaps later advances allow Nutrients to be harvested from native flora and fauna resources, I don't know; but as you can see in the quote from SMAC, alien life isn't believably something you can pick up and eat. Other quotes from SMAC indicate that the soil is perfect for earth plants, its just a matter of engineering them to the point where they can tolerate the alien atmosphere and environment.

In RFC there is cultural areas which provide victory goals or python events. I wonder if it can be of some use for the landmarks.

I imagine a good mapscript would put just one of every landmark on the map. I'm slowly learning python, but mapscripting may be a long way off.

I think the general concensus was that landmarks were too interesting to leave out, or that at least a reasonable effort would go towards getting something along those lines in. And, on deserts, there are the Dunes, a landmark desert from SMAC.
Right. So, are the Dunes a terrain, or a "resource" that occurs on arid terrain? Could go either way.

As for Minerals/Nutrients/Energy bonus resources, I think it better to be more specific with the former and latter, and too easy to include the middle. Minerals will be represented with slightly (or a lot) more specific Strategic Resources, Energy will be abundant both from Base Facilities and Improvements, and Nutrients should be tough to come by early on.
Agreed... I read all those discussions.

However, I'm not sure I agree on not having Nutrients at all. The balance for SMAC had a lot of arid terrain. Without Nutrients, you simply would not be able to have a city there until you unlock Condensers or sea-based food improvements. In SMAC, a single Nutrient would allow you to "get by", even in the early game.

By and large, in SMAC, the overall average of unimproved terrain has a lot less food than we see in CIV. Say the average is 1 food. In Civ, the average is 2 food. This makes sense to me; it is an alien planet after all. But the gameplay has to work out... and Nutrients were how SMAC did that.

So we can't just say "Nutrients should be tough to come by early on". Either we have to keep the CIV balance of average of 2 food, or else we should keep the SMAC balance of 1 food plus Nutrients (in one form or another).

Perhaps later advances allow Nutrients to be harvested from native flora and fauna resources, I don't know; but as you can see in the quote from SMAC, alien life isn't believably something you can pick up and eat.
Two comments:
-- What I was getting at is that Nutrients could be a resource. The gameplay is basically akin to Wheat... you make a farm and it gives extra food. Instead of being a plant (wheat), the resource would represent extra nutrients ("plant food") in the soil (nitrogen etc). This does not represent a tile with inherent extra food (as Nutrients in SMAC or floodplains in CIV) but rather a resource that gives extra food with the proper improvement (as farmed Wheat in CIV). Note that you still need the Agriculture tech (or whatever we're calling it) to plant the farm.
-- As you have noted yourself, advanced techs unlock the ability to process alien flora resources into food we can digest. (Just stating it for completeness.)

Other quotes from SMAC indicate that the soil is perfect for earth plants, its just a matter of engineering them to the point where they can tolerate the alien atmosphere and environment.
Yeah, yesterday I read all that again.

Wodan

I imagine a good mapscript would put just one of every landmark on the map. I'm slowly learning python, but mapscripting may be a long way off.
I saw the note where someone suggested we begin with pregenerated maps. That seems totally fine. But, regardless, I could take on mapscripting if everyone thinks that's a good task for me to take on. I've installed all the relevant stuff. Had an error and I think that was my trouble yesterday, so I need to resolve that. But, I've looked at the code and "get it" so I think my learning curve is going to be pretty flat. But, anyway, it might be more important for me to chip in with the other features than map scripting.

Wodan

Well, the mechanic for dealing with low-yield terrain would be greenhouses. Farms produce better food from the start, but need fresh water; greenhouses need nothing but always produce the same amount of food. Different tech lines would be used to improve the yields of each improvement, allowing both improvements to generate 3 food (at minimum) fairly early on. From a balance perspective, greenhouses will get a player by, but farms have higher yield potential; however, arid terrain is better for energy and (perhaps) more likely to contain strategic resources.

Edit: I've also played with mapscripting before, and I recommend taking a look at some of the scripts the CFC forum members have produced; tectonics is an interesting one to look at, as, iirc, that's the one which uses simulated wind direction and peak location to determine river placement and modifies terrain aridity.

I saw the note where someone suggested we begin with pregenerated maps. That seems totally fine. But, regardless, I could take on mapscripting if everyone thinks that's a good task for me to take on. I've installed all the relevant stuff. Had an error and I think that was my trouble yesterday, so I need to resolve that. But, I've looked at the code and "get it" so I think my learning curve is going to be pretty flat. But, anyway, it might be more important for me to chip in with the other features than map scripting.

Wodan

I'd love it if you could tackle mapscripting! That could make everything easier. :D

I saw the note where someone suggested we begin with pregenerated maps. That seems totally fine. But, regardless, I could take on mapscripting if everyone thinks that's a good task for me to take on. I've installed all the relevant stuff. Had an error and I think that was my trouble yesterday, so I need to resolve that. But, I've looked at the code and "get it" so I think my learning curve is going to be pretty flat. But, anyway, it might be more important for me to chip in with the other features than map scripting.

Wodan

If you'd like to take a look at it, be my guest. It's definitely something that I have no experience whatsoever with, so it would be nice to have someone who does.

Finally, strategic resources should be created. Basically, we can create as many as we want, so add them in as you please, as long as they fall into one of these groups, which are represented by the Bonus' BonusClass:

Light Metals
Heavy Metals
Radioactives

(Note: I think we should start with three separate groups for now and if we want to change or add to them.)


Then, these following buildings will be created:

Assembly Plant (Theme: Heavy Metals) (+10% bonus to all unit production)
Reactor Plant (Theme: Radioactives) (+10% bonus to all unit production)
Electronics Plant (Theme: Light Metals) (+10% bonus to all unit production)
Armory (Theme: Light Metals) (+20% bonus to all land humanoid unit production)
Vehicle Plant (Theme: Light/Heavy Metals) (+20% bonus to all land vehicle units.
Hangar (Theme: Light Metals) (+20% bonus to all air units)
Shipyard (Theme: Heavy Metals) (+20% bonus to all naval units)
Launch Facility (Theme: Light Metals/Radioactives) (+20% bonus to all interstellar units [just trust me on this one :P])

The different unit types will be determined by unit combat types. There are some tags I will need to create, but do as much as you can and tell me any tags that will be needed to finish.

This is from the v0.04 thread. I've got all the tags in place ready to commit, but noticed the following:

Having a 10% production increase means only getting 10% PER TURN. This will round off. Thus, if you have a 10% increase, you'll only get +1 production if you have at least 10 hammers already. You won't get a 20% increase unless you aready have 5 hammers. You won't get a 5% increase unless you already have 20 hammers, etc.

Is this ok? I don't see a way to make this a quick fix, but if it's not going to work then we might want to rethink making these production bonuses, or at least realize that it might take a ton of time to fix :P

Having a 10% production increase means only getting 10% PER TURN. This will round off. Thus, if you have a 10% increase, you'll only get +1 production if you have at least 10 hammers already. You won't get a 20% increase unless you aready have 5 hammers. You won't get a 5% increase unless you already have 20 hammers, etc.

Is this ok? I don't see a way to make this a quick fix, but if it's not going to work then we might want to rethink making these production bonuses, or at least realize that it might take a ton of time to fix :P

I was aware of this, but if it's a problem for others, the percentages could be increased or a new xml tag that added a set number of minerals only when producing a certain unit class (is that possible?) could be added.

I was aware of this, but if it's a problem for others, the percentages could be increased or a new xml tag that added a set number of minerals only when producing a certain unit class (is that possible?) could be added.

Unit class or unit combat type doesn't matter. It's just the round off problem to deal with. Not sure how I feel about a fixed amount, and I'd hate to say "Well, we can't fix it, let's just make them 25% to alleviate the problem".

I'll take a second look and see if there's not some way I can at least fudge the numbers to make them adhere to the percentages better.

Edit:

BTW, I chose Unit Combat Type over Unit Classes because Domain types would, IMO, be too limiting, and unit classes would just be annoying. We can at least play with it for now and if we find a reason why we would need it changed we can change it.

Well, it wouldn't be a stretch to increase it for the buildings which are specific to combat type; drydocks in civ 4 boost naval production by 50%, after all, and I think there should be a seperate building(s) for XP, so those combat-type specific production buildings won't be doing anything else but boost unit production in that case...it should be made worth the investment, for the player.

Well, it wouldn't be a stretch to increase it for the buildings which are specific to combat type; drydocks in civ 4 boost naval production by 50%, after all, and I think there should be a seperate building(s) for XP, so those combat-type specific production buildings won't be doing anything else but boost unit production in that case...it should be made worth the investment, for the player.

Alright, we'll work with 25% and 50% for now, and see how it goes. Saves me some work :P

Time to add some extra resources I assume.

For starters Silver and Gold? Gives +1 happiness with Factory.

Razorbeak, Glowmites and Grenade Fruit. +1 happiness/health/planet? (but only if you're planet-friendly?)


I've been thinking about the idea that because of the break-up of the Unity factions don't have full access to the genomes of terran plants and animals. Then you could rediscover those genomes in the form of resources on the map by popping unity pods (and the data files contained within). Or you could discover a still functioning hydroponics pod which contains the last living specimen of a certain plant. There are two realism/story/suspension-of-disbelief problems with this though, which also exist with Civ4's plant and animal resources. Any ideas on how to solve these?
1) Why can't I move the DNA data to wherever I please?
2) Why am I limited to only one resource of that kind? Why can't I, after having discovered one of a certain resource, breed/grow as many animals/plants as I want to (at least after having Cloning)?
Similar problems exist with discovering a famous Old Earth movie/book in a unity pod cache.

1) Why can't I move the DNA data to wherever I please?

0ne thing I can come up with would be software/hardware incompatability after humanity switches to optical computers or something. But that's very thing too.
Another thing might be data scrambling. It has deteriorated beyond copy recovery to new IT systems after all those Planet years in the open away from maintenance. So discoverers have to do with what's left and still readable at the moment of discovery.

2) Why am I limited to only one resource of that kind? Why can't I, after having discovered one of a certain resource, breed/grow as many animals/plants as I want to (at least after having Cloning)?

It can always be that, before the DNA of a particular organic resource is mapped and understood, this resource has adapted to this specific spot on Planet alone. It's a niche resource so to speak, and spreading it to other places on Planet let this resource mutate in such a way that the specific thingie in that resource which kindled interest in it doesn't come up.

Similar problems exist with discovering a famous Old Earth movie/book in a unity pod cache.

Oh, that's an easy one! The uniqueness of the contents of the pod cache makes it so valuable, a 'resource' so to speak. Sure the contents can be copied and distributed for the entertainment of the populace at large, but the real marble is owning the original stuff for your musea or somesuch. The 'happiness' is this case would be patriotism or proudness, not knowing the contents of it.

0ne thing I can come up with would be software/hardware incompatability after humanity switches to optical computers or something. But that's very thing too.
Another thing might be data scrambling. It has deteriorated beyond copy recovery to new IT systems after all those Planet years in the open away from maintenance. So discoverers have to do with what's left and still readable at the moment of discovery.

But that would still be a one-time mission. Go there, retrieve the still available data, and leave. Nothing that requires a permanent settlement.

It can always be that, before the DNA of a particular organic resource is mapped and understood, this resource has adapted to this specific spot on Planet alone. It's a niche resource so to speak, and spreading it to other places on Planet let this resource mutate in such a way that the specific thingie in that resource which kindled interest in it doesn't come up.

The ecological niche makes sense for native Chiron organisms, but as far as I can see not for terran organisms beyond the level of I assume bacteria. Complex organisms like eg banana trees most likely wouldn't be able to mutate to Chiron conditions without human intervention.

Oh, that's an easy one! The uniqueness of the contents of the pod cache makes it so valuable, a 'resource' so to speak. Sure the contents can be copied and distributed for the entertainment of the populace at large, but the real marble is owning the original stuff for your musea or somesuch. The 'happiness' is this case would be patriotism or proudness, not knowing the contents of it.

Sounds a good enough explanation for the problem of only having one resource :D but not an answer to the question why you can't move the resource, which seems a critical element of the resource system to me*. For books you could say that the unity pod contained more than just a few books, rather a small library and too many for a small recon party to carry back, and that the books are too detoriated to move. But that doesn't work for movies.


* I'd say resources add three things to the game:
1) makes exploration more interesting
2) gives some interesting targets for your colonization and war efforts. This element would disappear if you could move most resources.
3) gives some stuff to trade with other factions => makes diplomacy more interesting/contentful.



Some overview of issues:

Native organisms: no problems here at all. The reason of them only living in an ecological niche can be used here to explain scarcity.

Raw materials: problem here is that they need to be rare enough to count as a resource. So stuff like iron, silicon and aluminium is out I assume. That leaves Silver and Gold which aren't in yet. A couple other elements were mentioned in this thread. Gotta check if their occurence is rare or concentrated enough. Btw, IIRC copper is pretty rare too, right?
GeoModder, in an earlier post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5238860&postcount=47) in this thread you mentioned silver and gold as crucial for a technological society. Why is this? For the jewely reasons, or are there others?

paper book Library cache from unity pod or wreckage: no problems
Reason for scarcity: factional pride for ownership
Reason for immobility: too many to carry for a recon party, detoriated
But then this item wouldn't be tradeable :(

Old Earth movies: problem with explaining immobility
Reason for scarcity: factional pride for ownership
Immobility issue: perhaps movies could be a unit that can be brought back to your cities and there turned into a building which provides some movie resources? I assume if the mechanic isn't used too frequently, it could be good.

A still functioning hydroponics pod containing some living terran plants:
Reason for immobility: too fragile to move
Reason for scarcity: prior to Cloning some reasons could be invented to explaning it being impossible to grow. Eg the tree species having gender. The found specimen is male, but no female exists anymore. But then this item wouldn't be tradeable prior to Cloning. And what after Cloning?? Then it wouldn't be scarce enough anymore to count as a resource.

Live animals:
Problems: are mobile, aren't scarce because can be bred, if not before Cloning then certainly after.

DNA data: problems: is mobile and once obtained not scarce.

Maniac, you can have a "resource" which isn't physically present on the map. Think of those 3 media resources in Civ. ;)

I know. How's that relevant? :confused:

I have mixed feelings about strategic resources. Using the default Civ4 system in Planetfall does not appeal to me. Instead, I've been dividing the strategic resources into three distinct categories (related to a broader take on resouces):

1) Instead of unlocking units (or facilities), strategic resources confer a minor +% bonus towards the production of certain units. In Civ4 terms this means that "iron" confers a +20% or less production bonus to swordsmen; the player can still produce swordsmen without access to iron.

2) Maniac's suggestion of an "archeological artifact resource" (see: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5146687&postcount=24 )

3) Corporation-like resource mechanics:

Each base resource (minerals, energy, nutrients) has a strategic variant that--in addition to providing the usual bonus--provides a strategic resource. These strategic resources could be divided into 4 strategic categories corresponding with the SMAC/X paradigms: Build (+production), Conquer (+morale/+support), Discover (+research), and Explore (+Planet).
Nutrient Resonance Cluster: +2 :food: +1 Resonance Cluster
Energy Resonance Cluster: +2 :commerce: +1 Resonance Cluster
Mineral Resonance Cluster: +2 :hammers: +1 Resonance Cluster

The "Resonance Cluster" resource (some kind of special buffer material or catalyst) is a tradeable strategic resource.
The tradeable strategic resource does not confer a direct bonus (yield, luxury, etc.), but requires some kind of investment (e.g. infrastructure) in order to be "unlocked". The resource becomes tradeable as soon as it is connected to the trade network; this simply requires the base plot improvement (e.g. mines on mineral resources, farms on nutrient resources, solar panels on energy resources), no special improvement is required.

Instead of having corporations "unlocking" the strategic resources, base facilities combined with a civic are required. Each of the base facilities receive a bonus scaling with the number of relevant strategic resources controlled.
Euthinal Refinery: All units receive +2% :strength: per Resonance Cluster (per facility)

Flavor: The chemical substance "polydichloric euthimal" (short: "Euthinal") is a very potent amphetamine, effectively increasing troops' fighting capabilities. Chemical stability can only be achieved by the use of so-called resonance clusters in the production process. Sustained use of Euthinal causes hallucinations and psychotic behavior that, when applied without strict control, is very harmful to society.
(see Peter Hyams' "Outland" (1981).)
A set of civic options determine if the facility dependent strategic resource bonus has any positive effect. The faction must be running a specific civic in order for the bonus to be applied. Each strategic resource category requires a different civic, preventing factions from utilizing more than 1 strategic resource category at once. Optionally, the infrastructure investment may confer a penalty if a conflicting civic is run.

Euthinal Refinery: Base receives +1 :mad: per Resonance Cluster and +1 :yuck: per Resonance Cluster
There should probably be some kind of option to disable the strategic resource facilities.

Factions running different civics may benefit mutually from trading strategic resources. Because the resources are tied to infrastructure, it is less likely to switch strategic approach and only a denial strategy would interfere with diplomatic trading. A resource that one faction cannot put to use, may be crucial to another faction's success.

That all seems cool, Rubin.

Just to be clear, this is in addition to luxury resources?

Also, we're going to keep non-luxury, non-strategic resources? e.g., plain Nutrients (+2 food, no other benefit), as well as the special terrain types (Manifold, Sargasso, etc.) which could be either resources or actual terrains, doesn't seem to matter so whichever is easier to implement, but regardless their benefit is a plain + and that's it (though it could be a + to just about anything, no need to limit it to nutrients/production/energy).

Wodan

Just to be clear, this is in addition to luxury resources?

Yes, I only considered strategic resources. There may be some overlapping, though.

The idea of luxury resources in default Civ4 is a somewhat effortless affair. You connect, for example, gold to the trade network and you get +1 happiness. Later you unlock additional resources for more +1's.

I guess it works well in Civ4 and city size management is very different from SMAC/X. City sizes tend to fluctuate a lot and I rarely find it worth the effort to really optimize city population (single player); it just disrupts the game flow. The pool of luxury resources may fluctuate as well and the particulars become irrelevant; I trade fish for sheep, I receive wine for silver, I lose a resource--whip something and let time fix the unhappiness issues and health issues are long gone.

There are so many ways to deal with luxuries (whether you have access to luxuries or not). Luxury resources are parts of the whole, and I don't pay that much attention to them (unlike strategic resources).

Not asking about your gameplay style, Rubin, but how we design the mod. :) We of course have to design the mod for the anal micromanagers as well as the casual go-with-the-flow players such as yourself.

Anyway we have the thoughts out there... I'm confident Maniac will gather the threads and weave some sort of proposal.

Wodan

GeoModder, in an earlier post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5238860&postcount=47) in this thread you mentioned silver and gold as crucial for a technological society. Why is this? For the jewely reasons, or are there others?

Oh, because silver and gold are the best transducers (correct word?) for an electric current. At least for resources that can be found in ores. Don't know if there are artificial ones which are better.

Sorry for the late response, if you want a quick(er) response it's best to PM me. I don't monitor the whole forum anymore. :mischief:

conductors is the word you're looking for. :)

Artificial ones that are better would be superconductors, but they for the most part don't exist (yet). At non sub-zero temperatures anyway.

Wodan

1) Instead of unlocking units (or facilities), strategic resources confer a minor +% bonus towards the production of certain units. In Civ4 terms this means that "iron" confers a +20% or less production bonus to swordsmen; the player can still produce swordsmen without access to iron.

Yep I definitely agree.

2) Maniac's suggestion of an "archeological artifact resource" (see: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5146687&postcount=24 )

That early ideas hasn't been used in the end. Couldn't really imagine how the tech tree would work this way. Though perhaps a way to relate resources to research is each resource giving a research bonus to a certain category. Eg each monolith gives +5% research for centauri techs. Each (dysfunctional) Dimensional Gate* resource gives a 5% bonus to Physics/Discover techs...

* new resource idea :D

3) Corporation-like resource mechanics:

I'm all for creative uses of resources! :D
There are a couple things I don't really understand about what you said though.

Each base resource (minerals, energy, nutrients) has a strategic variant that--in addition to providing the usual bonus--provides a strategic resource. These strategic resources could be divided into 4 strategic categories corresponding with the SMAC/X paradigms: Build (+production), Conquer (+morale/+support), Discover (+research), and Explore (+Planet).
[SPOILER=Example, Conquer category]Nutrient Resonance Cluster: +2 :food: +1 Resonance Cluster
Energy Resonance Cluster: +2 :commerce: +1 Resonance Cluster
Mineral Resonance Cluster: +2 :hammers: +1 Resonance Cluster

So you mean four or five versions of the nutrient bonus, five versions of the mineral bonus...? Is the resource given in your example by nuts, min and ene the same? Is Resonance Cluster only for the Conquer category, or for all categories and is which category it becomes determined by the facility?? Or something else? Is there an explanation for tying "Resonance Cluster" to nut/min/ene boni, or is that just abstract to keep things simple?

Anyway, reading your description I'm mostly worried about the AI.
Teaching the AI to disable facilities is probably very hard. Likewise telling them that having a resource or running a civic in combination with a resource is useless or even a bad thing.
Also AFAIK the AI doesn't know it can be a good thing to trade for resources it already has one or more of. So without some serious AI work a choice would probably have to be made between giving a resource a quantitative effect or making the resource tradeable.

Anyway, a couple problems can probably be circumvented by a different implementation. Eg have corporations unlock the effect, but make it so that only one out of four corporations can be present in a base, so adding a new corporation to the base removes the previous one.

We of course have to design the mod for the anal micromanagers as well as the casual go-with-the-flow players such as yourself.

No we don't. :p A need for anal micromanagement be bad!

Anyway we have the thoughts out there... I'm confident Maniac will gather the threads and weave some sort of proposal.

Um I'm not so confident. :scared:


I guess I should post here too the summary I made of current resources in the mod:

Bonus yield resources

Nutrient
Mineral
Energy
;)

Happiness resources

Gold: +1 happiness with Factory, connected by mine

Silver: +1 happiness with Factory, connected by mine. I was thinking this also might double fungus removal speed. Currently unimplementable though.

Crystals: +1 happiness with Hologram Theatre. Perhaps also some laser or unit boost - awaiting to see unit system. Connected by mine or borehole. Might also want to allow it by Field Lab, but that would require some SDK change, because I'd prefer an improvement to only connect a resource if TechCityTrade is known.

Health resources

Currently only "Rare DNA"... +1 health with Clinic. Connected by Genetics Lab. (would prefer only one Field Lab terrain improvement but see problem above) Hmm, perhaps this resource could be split into three resources; one that appears on jungle, one on polar and one in deep ocean. Would need some idea for name differentiation though.

Planet-related resources

Note that while the previous resources required a building to have any health/happiness effect, the following resources have an inherent effect. The idea I'm playing with here is that a Planet-friendly strategy allows you to have many small bases (free culture with positive Planet, inherent resource effects, Green civic could reduce base maintenance costs), while other strategies would require a bigger investment before a base gets productive (but perhaps could be more productive in the end).

Monolith: +1 Planet, connected by Field Lab.

Brilliance: +1 Happiness. Only appears on fungus. Connected by Plantation and Centauri Preserve IIRC. Might remove the Plantation terrain improvement. Idea here is that some mind-enhancing drug named Brilliance is derived from fungus. Could give some psi combat benefits. Could be renamed Fungal Gin if desired for a bit more tongue-in-cheek name. Psi-enhancing benefits probably wouldn't fit then though. ;)

Other ideas for fungus-related resources could be Glowmites, Razorbeak and Grenade Fruits. Could give any of happiness/health/planet benefits. Not sure if we'd want to go through with that though.

Strategic resources

Not implemented yet (or at least only uranium and helium are in the game at the moment). I was thinking if we designate Fission Power, Fusion Power, Antimatter and Singularities as the four major advances in energy production, we could tie a resource to each of these which increases energy production of a related building, and could increase unit strength (awaiting unit system implementation to refine the rough ideas).
These could be:
Fission: Uranium
Fusion: Helium(-3)
Antimatter: Iridium
Singularity: Rubidium

Other resources

Alien Artifact resource could give +2 research to all Network Nodes. Other ideas for effects?

Oil is currently in the game, but I should probably remove it. Or at least limit it to the deep oceans with the explanation that's the only place fossil fuels have been able to form due to the absence of fungus. Possible effect could be a reduction in unit maintenance (it being not economical to use advanced antimatter reactors for all units and pumping it from the ground being cheaper than organic fuels), but that's unimplementable at the moment.

And of course a whole bunch of Old Earth stuff resources could be included, but that has a few practical suspension-of-disbelief problems which I mentioned in the Resources thread in the public forum and which would need to be solved first.

Oh, an easy way out to invent all kinds of health and happiness resources could be to place Nanoreplicator facilities as resources on the map, left behind by the Progenitors (why did they leave Planet anyway??) and preprogrammed to manufacture all sorts of stuff. Not sure I like it though...

So you mean four or five versions of the nutrient bonus, five versions of the mineral bonus...?

Well, yes. That is my starting point. Because the strategic resource requires investment and does not provide a direct bonus it can be distributed unevenly among the basic resources. This means:

3 basic resources (N, M, E) and 4 strategic resources (B, C, D, E)

A distribution of strategic resources could look something like this:

Nutrient-C Mineral-B Energy-C
Nutrient-E Mineral-D Energy-D
Nutrient-B

I see no particular reason for an even distribution.

Is the resource given in your example by nuts, min and ene the same?

Yes, the strategic resource is the same. It is simply an addition to the basic resource.

Is Resonance Cluster only for the Conquer category, or for all categories and is which category it becomes determined by the facility?? Or something else?

The Resonance Cluster variant is for the Conquer category only.

Is there an explanation for tying "Resonance Cluster" to nut/min/ene boni, or is that just abstract to keep things simple?

As stated above, this was my starting point. An abstraction, if you will, but instead of many different resources I would prefer variations of the basic resources.

How about using algae as a resource (+health with recycling tanks)? They exist about everywhere (so different resources for various terrain possible) and have various applications in nutrition, energy production... (so could boost nutrients, minerals and energy)

How about "Fossilized Mindworm Husk deposits" as a bonus luxury resource? Kind of like fossils on earth – but especially prized on Planet… as collectors items for the rich / centerpieces for environmental artwork.

Also – maybe the types of fungus could be expanded a bit? Certain fungus patches could have traces of the rare "purple fungus" that has wonderful medicinal qualities. Throw in yellow fungus and the very rare green fungus (also naturally occurring in-between the toes of the subterranean living Hive citizens ;) ) – all of which could add +health to your cities.

Finally – what about creating special regions like in the original SMAC – garland crater, monsoon jungle, mount planet, etc. But this time, instead of having a direct resource benefit, maybe control of the area could add a happiness or health benefit to the controlling civ. Say, control of Mt. Planet could give you 5 Ski Vacation luxuries – kind of like controlling Broadway or Hollywood. You could get really creative with this one.

Just throwing them out there!
:salute:

LOL ski vacations sounds like a fun resource. :lol: And it fits the criteria for the perfect resource: it's scarce, it's immobile/only locally "producable", yet tradable (invite some tourists over). :goodjob: Could perhaps be able to appear on all rocky highland polar terrain, not just the Mount Planet.

Brings back a memory from Alpha Centauri Democracy Game 3:

Nice! is that a Morgan Ski Resort I see there? :lol:

So here's just a quick brainstorm blast of similar ideas:

Ski Vacation [+1 :)] (The sun and snow are calling your name…)
Geothermal Spa [+1 :health: ] (Enjoy a mud bath on location, or get the unique mud shipped right to your door for home use.)
Ancient Ruins [+1 :)] (Experience all the magic and mystery! Sign up for a tour now.)
Fossilized Mindworm Husks [+1 :)] (Make the ultimate statement in home décor – genuine mindworm husks… turned to stone!)
Super-Soil [+1 :health: ] (Soil is watered by underground springs that bring unusually rich vitamins and nutrients to the soil up from the depths… producing better food.)
Green Fungus [+1 :health: ] (A rare genetic mutation in some fungus patches produces green fungal stocks, then when ground into a powder can boost human immune systems.)


Anyway – that's my braindump for today. Hope there's at least a few useful ideas in there! :salute:

All these tiles could also obviously offer native bonuses to food or commerce.
I also like the current suggestions of using gold, silver, crystals, rare DNA, and Brilliance Drug for the other bonus resources.

I agree that oil should probably be removed.

Geothermal Spa [+1 :health: ] (Enjoy a mud bath on location, or get the unique mud shipped right to your door for home use.)

W00t I like this one too. Could appear on riversides and coastal tiles. I didn't know "spa" was a word in English btw. (It's a town in Belgium with - guess what - water sources.)

http://www.allosupermarche.be/files/spa.6x1l.jpg

Ancient Ruins[/b] [+1 :)] (Experience all the magic and mystery! Sign up for a tour now.)

When including The Ruins landmark, extra happiness and Planet indeed is the logical bonus it would give. Unfortunately this is a resource which can occur only on one place on Planet. :(

Personally I like the other ideas less though:

Fossilized Mindworm Husks

The Fungus prevents formation of fossilized remains. Same reason why oil doesn't appear.

Super-Soil

Name is kinda bland. Sounds like just another name for the Nutrient bonus.

Green Fungus

I thought I'd add a "Red Algae" resource which appears on fungus. Is kinda similar to the Green Fungus explanation.

This Geothermal Spa thingie gives me an idea for an event:

"Our scouts have discovered a geothermally active region full of geysers and hot water springs. What shall we do?"

Option A: "Let's try and turn it into a tourist attraction."
67% chance of getting a Geothermal Spa resource on the plot.

Option B: "Free Energy! Put a borehole on it immediately!"
Energy bonus resource is created on the plot.
Thermal Borehole is created on the plot.

I like that event :thumbsup:

Had another random idea for a luxury resource – I'll just keep tossing them out, if that's ok? I seem to score 1 out of 4 :lol:

Today's idea:
Harmonic Caves – Naturally occurring caves that through the interplay of heat, wind, and subtle fungal vibrations produce a sonic and harmonic effect. Planet Music, if you will. You can purchase the CDs with recordings of the "music" on them – but for the full experience you have to go visit the caves and let the sound waves wash over you.


How's that one?

EDIT: oh – and I like the red algae idea. Makes more sense if it's an extra growth - rather than a new type of fungus.

Woops forgot to reply.

While I'm all for tongue-in-cheek references in the mod, I think the Harmonic Caves kinda crosses the line between "fun" and "ridiculous". :mischief:

Though thinking further along the lines of harmonics and fungal vibratios, perhaps a new happiness resource could be the "Resonance Cluster". Basically an area of heightened psionic activity which arose after the Progenitor left due to changed fungal presence etc. That's why there wouldn't be a monolith on it yet.

Well, I do know a few things about Chiron (gotten out of planets.txt in the Alpha Centauri folder), which will have a big impact upon how things are done on Planet.

--Things on Chiron are only 40 percent as flammable as they are on Earth, due to the fact that Chiron's atmosphere has double the nitrogen, and almost half of the oxygen as Earth's atmosphere. Because of this, there is much less danger from using Hydrogen as a gas for zeppelin-type vehicles, both because there is less oxygen to ignite with the hydrogen and we won't be enough of dumbasses to coat the skin of the blimps with gunpowder, which is, by the way, the reason that the Hindenburg exploded. Hydrogen blimps aren't that bad of an idea on Earth, let alone Chiron. Therefore: Helium is much less useful, and due to the fact that it is chemically inert, would not have too many uses on Chiron. Hydrogen is also out as a resource, if only because it is present everywhere.

--Also, just another thing against Helium--it does not aid in fusion power--Helium is a by-product of Hydrogen Fusion, but fusion of the Helium element itself into lithium is actually much, much less useful (has to do with the binding energies present in atoms--this makes Hydrogen good for fusion and Uranium and Plutonium good in fission).

--(this is from the the TECHLONGS.txt in the same folder, and since it states my point perfectly concerning oil as a resource, I'll just copy and paste it here:)
The extreme efficiency with which the neural net
fungus managed Planet's vast ecosystem kept extensive
deposits of organic material from forming over the epochs.
Because of this lack, the fossil fuels known on Earth
never developed, forcing early colonists to rely on less
efficient alternative sources of energy. However, advances
in [Advanced Subatomic Theory (B3)] and [Gene Splicing (B3)]
finally allow scientists to short-circuit the eons-long process,
providing them with the {Synthetic Fossil Fuels} needed
to build advanced vehicles and machinery.

--Fresh Water. While Fresh water is indeed important, I do not think that the technology to purify water would have been "lost" in the wreckage of the Unity. Everyone just got done with a 40 year voyage to Chiron, and the water recycling systems (along with oxygen recycling and purifying) would have been the most sacred of equipment. While it would be nice and easy to just have fresh water lying about, I doubt we would really need it. Rather, perhaps put a limit on base size due to water recycling until a Recycling Center is built. Besides, due to the various xenobiological organisms no doubt present throughout Planet's ecosystem, there is unlikely to be fresh water lying about which would not be terribly poisonous. It would all likely need to be purified anyhow. Therefore, Fresh Water is not needed, as we are efficient enough with technology available.

--However, there is validity in the need for Heavy Water (water rich with Hydrogen atoms with atomic masses of 2 and 3), because Heavy Water is a good source of deuterium and tritium, which are invaluable to anyone wanting to build either fusion reactors or thermonuclear bombs (hydrogen bombs). Heavy Water also has some use in Fission reactors, but graphite is better for these purposes. And if graphite is ever needed, it is abundant in surrounding organic chemicals from alien life and whatnot, so even if there isn't much in the ground, we can get it from somewhere.

--I thin metals are probably the most useful to early colonists. Once nanotech is discovered, however, basically all metals become obsolete as armor or any sort of thing like that because of bucky balls and buckytubes (also known as carbon nanotubes). Carbon is abundant, and would be the element to replace all others. Likely, the discovery of Nanotech would obsolete all other metals as resources, besides ones that are nice because they are shiny. Nanotubes are the strongest material in existence, and have endless applications.

--We should definitely bring back the landmarks. Those were awesome.

--I agree that ruins would be good resources, to replace Civ IV's various happiness resources (and some could make things easier to construct and whatnot, due to the ancient machinery we find--not because of the raw materials themselves). With sufficiently advanced societies, all we need is raw matter.

Edit: Whoops, sorry, I posted this without seeing that there were many more pages to read, so sorry if any of it is out of date.

Okay, after that, I made it my mission to read the whole thread. Which took me a couple hours, haha.

I do have problems with some of the luxury resources that have been placed up. I did, however, like the even that Maniac proposed, but I think it would be better implemented as something which is not present on the map. I just think ideas like "ski vacation" and whatnot are a bit silly to have as "strategic resources." Rather, I would be in favor of more stuff like that being handled through events--someone finds something cool, you make a decision (such as with finding copies of movies in a data pod), and then you get some benefit. You could choose to sell the movies[+energy], or you could give them a special place in a museum[+happy]. Luxury resources that are more appealing are things like the Fungal Gin, or various psychotic drugs and whatnot.

Oh, and I agree that terran fauna doesn't really have a place on Planet. If we need meat on Chiron, it would be much easier to grow the meat in labs (we are close to doing this right now) without having to take care of animals. Also, outfitting cows with the genes to be able to live with such small amounts of oxygen (and the fact that everyone weights 1.3 times their usual weight on Chiron), would result in replacing cows with something more akin to crocodiles--animals with short legs, capable of resting easily, and who do not need very much air, or require much energy to stay alive. And there is less carbon dioxide on Planet, so there is that problem for plants as well. Although plants would have a much easier time either adapting or being genetically enhanced.

So Earth fauna--only in Morgan luxury restaurants.

I have aways had a problem with the idea of "synthetic fossil fuels" from Alpha Centauri. Aren't fossil fuels are less efficient than most alternative energy resources, even today? If they were used I doubt it would be so much for energy as for purposefully causing the environmental effects we are trying to reduce now, as a part of their terraforming efforts. They do need more Carbon Dioxide for their plants, right? For all I know Planet is a bit colder than earth too, so global warming may be desirable. Of course, just burning alien plant matter would work too, but that might also release less desirable chemicals into the atmosphere.

I also fail to see why this requires such advanced technologies. Charcoal is essentially a synthetic fossil fuel, and its use dated back to before recorded history. The advances would probably have to just be making the fungus safer to burn.


Heavy water sounds like a good resource. Assuming Planet is like earth, it would probably have to be refined from sea water. Or you could mine it I guess, since the water that seems into the worlds deepest mine have significantly higher deuterium concentrations, closer to the levels found elsewhere in the solar system.


Landmarks could be handled the way FfH's Unique Features (which are actually improvements) are, where the game randomly places them and will not allow multiple copies of the same thing. You can label things in Civ IV anyway, so you could have a text box label these features too.

Actually, Chiron is an average of 8 degrees Kelvin warmer than Earth, due probably mostly to the much thicker atmosphere and the fact that their sun is about 27 percent brighter from Chiron's point of view (this may be taking Alpha Centauri B into account as well).

The point of Synthetic Fossil Fuels is not to provide a better power source in general, but to provide something better for the purposes of weaponry and fuel for vehicles. The people on Alpha Centauri have had a bit of a set-back, and it is likely that any hydrogen fuel-cell technology and whatnot that they did have was not reproducible by them immediately. So their only choice was to repurpose what they could and then use far less efficient/more inconvenient means of fuel production. They could produce things like Ethanol, but that would require sacrificing some food production for vehicle maintenance, which isn't desirable.

As far as charcoal is concerned--yes, it isn't difficult to make (if you have wood), but then again, it isn't very good fuel for a car. Synthetic Fossil Fuels likely requires great amounts of compression in order to get useful oil or "natural gas" out of things.

Ideally, the better forms of fuels would simply be batteries, or fuel cells or some other power source, but in the initial years, it is necessary to rely on more crude methods of powering vehicles.

I don't like the idea of Synthetic Fossil Fuels very much myself, just because I think it would be awfully inefficient to produce, but I can still see some of the logic as to why it is included. Besides, I like the bit of paleo-history concerning Chiron.

Also--that idea for landmarks sounds like it could be a good one. We'd have to be sure, however, to make it impossible to pillage. Unless we want to be able to pillage it, but certainly formers on automate shouldn't accidentally destroy the Manifold Nexus.

Also--one thing that kind of bothers me (this is unrelated to this thread, but there isn't a geography thread, or land graphics thread) is that we can walk on mountains, and it appears that this is an attempt to have the higher/lower terrain feature which was so cool in Alpha Centauri. I think for the sake of the game's look that we should just accept the fact that it looks ugly to have mountains arranged like that, and silly for units to be flying/walking over them, and just allow the raise/lower terrain feature turn lowlands into hills, or to make landbridges, and sink some things. Just a thought.

You can't walk over mountains. What version of the mod are you playing?

If you borrow unique features from FfH, then they would already be unpilligible (well, a couple were made pilligible in the last version).

FfH's CIV4ImprovementInfos.xml added 7 new tags, which might all be useful. You could probably borrow the SDK for this pretty easily, and be able to use the <bUnique>, <iAppearanceProbability>, <iHealRateChange>, <iRange>, <iRangeDefenseModifier>, <iVisibilityChange>, <BonusConvert>, <FeatureUpgrade>, and <SpawnUnitType> tags.

You have some C++ skills right? Wouldn't you want to include the required code for landmarks in the Planetfall SDK? :mischief:

Oh, I'm playing v3 patch f--I don't specifically remember walking over them, but my helicopter was able to fly over them--was that already allowed in CIV IV, and I just never noticed? (I usually never play the highlands map, which may be the reason)

Oh yeah, choppers and gravships can fly over peaks, but other units not.

Post recycling for attachment: :D

Okay, that's good. Sorry for the confusion.

Oh, whoops, I take back my previous arguments against the use of Helium as a resource for the following reasons:

When cooled to just a few shades above absolute zero, Helium is a wonderful superconductor. It finds extensive use in MRIs, radio telescopes, and a multitude of other things today even. On planet, I doubt it would get much zeppelin use, but there certainly would be need for superconductors.

So never mind on that one, sorry guys, haha.

I suppose it should be "revealed" by the Supercooling tech, then.

Wodan

I'm assuming that 'Ski Vacation' and 'Geothermal Spa' are temporary, then? :D

I'm assuming that 'Ski Vacation' and 'Geothermal Spa' are temporary, then? :D

--gah, I hope they are

I noticed that this thread hasn't been used in a while, but I had a resource thought:
Perhaps silver could be renamed as platinum. Platinum is both functional as jewelry like silver, but it also has many more industrial uses as a catalyst. I think the colonists would have more use for it than silver. Currently its greatest use (at least according to Wikipedia) is in automobile catalytic converters. One additional benefit of platinum could be a bonus to Planet value (scrubbing industrial pollutants out of the air) with a certain base facility. I'm not sure which yet, perhaps recycling tanks?

The problem with that I see is that Platinum kinda feels like the Industry-theme. And that's one of the more anti-Planet tech themes.

I read on wikipedia Silver is used in fungicides btw. Not sure if I'll use that in any way.

But silver is also used in fungicides ;).


An question:
Should it stay, that you use the vanilla models for the -DNA-resources?
Because asioasioasio has made a DNA model, which could be used for it.

Where can I find that model?

The problem with that I see is that Platinum kinda feels like the Industry-theme. And that's one of the more anti-Planet tech themes.

I read on wikipedia Silver is used in fungicides btw. Not sure if I'll use that in any way.

I'm not sure what you mean by the Industry-theme.

Silver being in fungicides assumes that the Planet fungus has anything to do with Earth fungus. I figure the fungus name is just to describe its growth habit.

Titanium comes to my mind - it could give you a small production bonus for mechanized units, ships or planes. Or is there a special reason why Planetfall does not have ressources which make items cheaper?

Planetfall offers a great variety of health and happiness boosting ressources, but their are few with strategic impact (Iridium allows Planetbusters, but thats it). Maybe it is good that way, because making important units totally dependant on a ressource can easily unbalance the game...but I don't think a small production bonus for certain units/buildings for some ressources would hurt.

Where can I find that model?

Here. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=3915)
It's a building model, but it makes no difference, a .nif is a .nif.
The socket might be an aesthetical problem, but you can just move it into the ground by lowering the model on the z-axis.

That begs the question though: does it or does it not look out of place to represent DNA resources with a DNA symbol instead of some random plants or so? I'd like to hear some opinions on that before I use that DNA symbol in the game. Also, there are four DNA resources, so then there should be four variations of the same graphic.

Titanium comes to my mind

Titanium is widely distributed. It doesn't really make sense as a bonus resource only available on a couple select places.

Planetfall offers a great variety of health and happiness boosting ressources, but their are few with strategic impact (Iridium allows Planetbusters, but thats it). Maybe it is good that way, because making important units totally dependant on a ressource can easily unbalance the game...but I don't think a small production bonus for certain units/buildings for some ressources would hurt.

I wouldn't mind giving some resource which gives a happiness/health/planet also some small bonus to unit or building production, but I don't want to add any resources whose sole purpose is to significantly alter the cost of some unit. I find it ridiculous that Civ4 gives great military importance to stuff like Copper, Iron, Horse, Oil, but then also adds lots of code to the starting position generator to ensure everyone will definitely have most of these resources nearby. Seems kinda like a pointless exercise.

That begs the question though: does it or does it not look out of place to represent DNA resources with a DNA symbol instead of some random plants or so? I'd like to hear some opinions on that before I use that DNA symbol in the game. Also, there are four DNA resources, so then there should be four variations of the same graphic.

Titanium is widely distributed. It doesn't really make sense as a bonus resource only available on a couple select places.



I would say that resources as symbols makes it a lot easier to notice them, and since giant lumps sticking out of the ground don't make much sense anyways I don't see realism as a big issue. Although it should still look cool.

For many mineral resources (I think including titanium) the elements are widely distributed, but usually in minute quantities, making mining them uneconomical, even at high prices. Therefore, the only truly usable sources are those where the mineral is very highly concentrated, usually still in relatively low concentrations.

That begs the question though: does it or does it not look out of place to represent DNA resources with a DNA symbol instead of some random plants or so? I'd like to hear some opinions on that before I use that DNA symbol in the game. Also, there are four DNA resources, so then there should be four variations of the same graphic.



Titanium is widely distributed. It doesn't really make sense as a bonus resource only available on a couple select places.



I wouldn't mind giving some resource which gives a happiness/health/planet also some small bonus to unit or building production, but I don't want to add any resources whose sole purpose is to significantly alter the cost of some unit. I find it ridiculous that Civ4 gives great military importance to stuff like Copper, Iron, Horse, Oil, but then also adds lots of code to the starting position generator to ensure everyone will definitely have most of these resources nearby. Seems kinda like a pointless exercise.

How about having strategic resources that only decrease hammer costs? As far as DNA symbols go, I like the current plan to use the DNA resource. Chiron uses good ol DNA anyway right? Has been a while since i read the background. I would keep it as a labor saving measure.

That begs the question though: does it or does it not look out of place to represent DNA resources with a DNA symbol instead of some random plants or so?
I'd like to hear some opinions on that before I use that DNA symbol in the game.

Not sure :dunno:.
It's just, when i look at a elephant, i'll see ivory, and not DNA.
But you're maybe right, it DNA modell will not really look natural.

Also, there are four DNA resources, so then there should be four variations of the same graphic.


Wouldn't be a problem to change the skin to light green, dark green, blue...and the fourth color.

That begs the question though: does it or does it not look out of place to represent DNA resources with a DNA symbol instead of some random plants or so?It's really not stranger than little suns floating around, representing energy. Vanilla art tends to trip one up more than a symbolic representation.

Cheers, LT.

If we're considering appearance, remember to check what it looks like with the appropriate improvement on top of it. Otherwise it doesn't make much difference to me. I usually have the resource finder helper turned on anyways.

DNA resources are enabled by the field lab, which fortunately does not conceal the center of plot.

Anyway, if someone can make four DNA nifs without the pedestal and in four different colours, I'll use it. :D

Anyway, if someone can make four DNA nifs without the pedestal and in four different colours, I'll use it. :D
...tried my hand at it. How do you like the results? :)

The DNA in the screenshot uses fScale = 0.85 and fInterfaceScale = 1.2

Cheers, LT.

:woohoo: :woohoo:

PS: I like your sig. ;)

That's some really nice genes there, LT. ;)

Nice ones, i like the sea DNA.

Btw, is it a rotating DNA-helix? If not, it would be nice to have it as an animated resource.

Btw, is it a rotating DNA-helix? If not, it would be nice to have it as an animated resource.The version above is static, but I made an animated version - now it's slowly rotating. See attachment for the animated version. I tested it in-game - and it works flawlessly.

Just overwrite the old files (I had to change all of them to get it working properly) and don't forget to include "dna.kfm" in the ArtDefine file for the animation.

Cheers, LT.

Thanks! :)

I'd agree with having resources give a base happiness/health/planet and also a small extra bonus (ie +5% to Infantry or Vehicle or Aircraft prod for various metals/gases, maybe effects like +5% :gp:, +2% healing rate, +5% research in specific subdomains, etc for the DNAs or Algaes) for more individualization. Also interesting would be to unlock an added + health or happy from certain resources with several late-game techs or buildings, making resource access have some input into your strategic priorities.

... maybe effects like +5% :gp:, +2% healing rate, +5% research in specific subdomains, ...

That's a good suggestion there!
Btw, you weren't on fungal gin when this idea popped up, didn't you? :trouble: