WOTM 06 - First Spoiler

Reading Requirements:

Have reached at least 0 AD.
Have mapped the starting island and the islands nearby


Posting Restrictions

Please do not discuss events past 500 AD.

First to spoil!

I started playing last evening and didn't stop until today's afternoon :mischief:
Anyway, I'll stick to the stuff before 500 AD. I'm playing the Adventurer class wih the extra workboat.

I decided to settle right in the start position and send off my workboat westwards to explore, there might be a close neighbour and trade route income could be significant with trading posts and hopefully the Great Lighthouse.

In research, my first priorities were:
* to Bronzeworking, for chopping and slavery
* Sailing, for boats and trade routes
* Masonry, for the Great Lighthouse
* to Priesthood, for Oracle
* Writing, for Open Border Agreements and to get CoL with the Oracle

I tried to get, and got two wonders in low-productive Nidaros. I was suprised I could pull that off at Monarch, because I usually play at Prince level. However, it took a lot of time nevertheless and I was (too) late to expand.



Timeline:
2860BC: Met Huayna.
1780BC: Stonehenge is built somewhere
1690BC: Great Wall is built, prolly somewhere else
1420BC: Met Kathy
Got Writing and signed open border agreements with Huey and Kathy.
970BC: Finished Oracle, chopped half of my forests for it, got CoL and Confu
895BC: Met Americans and Spanish, both are Jewish
775BC: Confu spreads to the Romans. Nice. Later I send a galley with a missionary and my scout around. Missionary converts Rome, scout explores several islands and takes goody huts. I got Metal Casting from a hut. Unfortunately, that happened when I was only a few turns away from it. That's not getting a bonus tech, thats getting 1/10th bonus tech. Ah well, I got over it.
625BC: Circumnavigation! Yippee!
520BC: Completed Great Lighthouse. Nidaros is now deforested.
430BC: Silver is discovered in one of the hills in Nidaros's fat cross. This is very good luck. It gives both happiness and a lot of commerce.
310BC: Finally founded Uppsala on the interior lake, east of the gems. I much regretted this position later on.
190BC: Great Merchant is born in Nidaros. Decided to send him to Cuzco.
125AD: Trade mission yields $1350, which turned out to be enough to afford centuries of research at 100%.
380AD: Haithabu founded near the southeast corner of the island.
470AD: Finally, Civil Service. I already had Construction and some pults. I thought I could start conquering at last, but it turned out I still needed Machinery for Berserkers. Whoops, slight miscalculation there. What would my first target be? The weak Russians? But they were my best friends. The Incans, who were leading in points at the time? Or the Romans? Should I raze everything to the ground or try to keep cities and risk overexpansion and recapture? Many coastal cities were weakly defended. But everyone appeared to have their capital on a hill. That would be tough.

That was what was going on around 500 AD, methinks. I was in the lower part of the score table, switching the last place with the Russians at times. But I had a decent chance to win, I thought, especially if I could get Berserker production up.

Would like to know how others fared! :cool:

I founded in place, and after scouting the initial island and noticing small nearby islands, built two extra workboats to go exploring. I explored west first, (just because Nidaros was on the west of the island), and was first to circumnavigate the world (although this was delayed for a while because I didn't get Writing early enough and some borders blocked me in a bit).

I founded Uppsala in the south-east of the island, next to the horses. The plan was to skip the jungly parts because they wouldn't be useful until IW, and the west had no more resources.

Silly me also eventually founded a city on the interior lake next to the gems, not knowing I couldn't build a lighthouse if I built it there.

I built Stonehenge just because I could (and the lighthouse had gone).

Spent much of the game dead flat last in points. Our island didn't look productive enough to go invading, so I focussed on keeping my economy ok, hoping to keep up in techs. Early plan was to go for diplomatic victory, hoping the others would all squabble among their religions and if I didn't adopt one and if I tech traded well enough they'd all like me.

Of course, never having one on Monarch, I was a little dubious about whether the plan would work...

Hello All.

This is my first foray into WOTM.

Being that its an islands map and my UB is trade-related, I wanted to go income-happy, and sail-happy.
I settled in place. I notice the extra food resource. Sweet! I decide to skimp on warrior production. Worker, Workboat (size2), worker, warrior, settler.

I found a city to the north to take advantage of sea-tiles., then founded a third right near the gems. My lone warrior was planted on the jungle hills to block any wayward barbarians.

I built two galleys ASAP. Loaded a scout into them, and got a warrior and gold from the two goody huts. I then sent through throughout the world and timed writing just writing.

Circumnavigated the globe. Built the Colossus. Built a 4th city on the small island with the iron (2). Built a 5th city to get horses.

At 500 AD, i am dead last in score, but 2nd in economy. I trade techs very carefully, focusing on economic techs. I have OB with all Civs, but I am unaware of how the alliances will play. Currently Roosevelt is the largest who is buddies with Isabella. Everyone else is up for grabs.

I decide right then : Diplomatic victory. I aim to be done by 1700 AD. Let's see what happens

I founded Uppsala in the south-east of the island, next to the horses. The plan was to skip the jungly parts because they wouldn't be useful until IW, and the west had no more resources.


Not entirely useless. With a trading post and working the water tiles, you can get quite a bit of commerce from there pre-IW.

Resources were definitely thin on the ground around our starting spot. Have we ever had such a resource-poor GOTM before?

Silly me also eventually founded a city on the interior lake next to the gems, not knowing I couldn't build a lighthouse if I built it there.


:lol: But it meant you got the iron, no? (I settled Uppsala NE of the gems so I could build a trading post and get a nice commerce city, but of course frustratingly out of reach of the iron when the iron revealed itself)

(btw looking back at the map, it struck me that the tile with the goody hut would've made a cool city site with 2 irons, gems, and tons of food from the seafood and lakes. But of course that only works with hindsight, since most people will probably have already settled round there before they discover iron working.)

I got off to a slow start on the WOTM and didn't get cottaging the island until late.

I moved the scout south of the settler and founded in place when I saw the pigs. Its a reasonable early capital although meh later. I thought I would move the capital to a better production location later not realizing this is a reasonable production location on this island. Initial builds workboat, warrior, worker IIRC.

Early Techs

3460BC Animal Husbandry
3160BC Mining
2590BC Bronze Working
2020BC Writing (Open Borders with Cathy and H.C.)
1540BC Sailing (Start trading)
1270BC Wheel
1120BC Mysticism
835BC Iron Working
760BC Pottery
475BC Alphabet

I've met Ghandi, Augustus, H.C., Cathy, and Roosevelt at this point. Rude shock, most of them have Alphabet already and I have little to trade. I meet Isabella a bit later but she is furious at me and very backward.

460BC - pop Metal Casting from hut beside iron which opens up trading
460BC - Math, Polytheism, Agriculture, Archery, Masonry (trade)
235BC - Calendar (trade)
190BC Construction
145BC - Priesthood
70BC - Monarchy (trade)
5AD - Meditation, Montheism (trade from Cathy for Monarchy then DOW - Caesar is a clear tech leader and I may have to limit trading for filler techs to avoid WFYABTA problems)
80AD - Code of Laws (Confucianism had been founded by the Romans in 455BC and spread to me already)
260AD - Literature (trade)
365AD - Civil Service
395AD - Compass, Currency, Music (trade)
470AD - Machinery - time for Berserkers


I built 3 cities on the island in the early game after the capital.
2050BC Uppsala - Pig and 2 Horses on the southern coast
1210BC Haithabu - Fish and Clams on the east coast
400BC Birka - on small cut off section of the island to work the two iron mines - despite no road connections to the rest of the empire this will be my Heroic Epic city.

Civics - 2530BC Slavery
20AD Hereditary Rule
380AD Bureaucracy

I declared war on Cathy in 5AD with a stack of catapults and swords. Russia is eliminated in 455AD, I keep 4 Russian cities and raze 2.

So at 500AD, I control two islands although I don't have much production. Cathy's cities have nice commerce but even worse production than my own. I'm building the Heroic Epic and my first great general became an instructor in that city. Its currently a consolodation phase as I build courthouses in Russia and my first berserkers. I'm planning to attack Roosevelt next to get the Pyramids.

The AIs are much further advanced than usual and the world is a happy confucian place. Isabella founded Buddhism, Hinduism, and Judaism and Caesar Confucianism. H.C. and Isabella are Buddhist and the rest of the world is Confucian. Ghandi, Roosevelt and Caesar are happily trading away and Isabella is mad at most of the world. She would be in a great position for a cultural victory if she wanted but ignoring worker techs to found 3 religions isn't the greatest starting strategy.

btw looking back at the map, it struck me that the tile with the goody hut would've made a cool city site with 2 irons, gems, and tons of food from the seafood and lakes. But of course that only works with hindsight, since most people will probably have already settled round there before they discover iron working.

I don't know if jungle grew quickly for me or if the gems are initially on a jungle tile. I didn't found a city near the gems until after I saw the iron because there there was too much jungle to make the center of the island useful. I just accepted the distance costs and founded the horse city for defence and the east coast for fast growth.

Edit:
Originally planned to have my fourth city work the gems and 3 hills for production after chopping all the jungle but moved it to grab the iron. I end up with a couple of hills on the starting island that can't be worked. I had built roads on the two hills beside the capital assuming that iron would appear there when I finished iron working.

(btw looking back at the map, it struck me that the tile with the goody hut would've made a cool city site with 2 irons, gems, and tons of food from the seafood and lakes. But of course that only works with hindsight, since most people will probably have already settled round there before they discover iron working.)

Luckilly I had a hunch about this spot, since you could not get there by land. I noticed the gems, clams and pigs at that spot early on. The 2 irons just solidified the decision.

I too built my second city over by the horses since there was no other good spot pre-iron working (too much jungle!).

One other lucky tidbit - very early in the game one of the mines in the starting city popped silver. Like maybe 4 turns into the mine's operation. Much, much later in the game copper popped in the other one.

The only early wonder I was able to build was the Great LH. I didn't cottage anywhere near fast enough, and seemed to make some early tech decisions that left my poor worker with nothing to do at times.

I decided to forgo any attempt at religion, which was probably wise as the early ones went fairly quickly.

My goal was to attempt a conquest or domination victory again, but this map is proving difficult (too little production) and it has taken me a long time just to get the island settled and productive. The next spoiler will tell how I managed this goal.

This is actually the first sea map I've every played in Civ4. Come to think of it...I never played an archipelago map in C3 either. I normally like continents or fractal to give me a sort of mix between land and sea warfare. So having to wage any war over water would be a challenge for me.

Been a while since I've played a GOTM, but 500AD seems like an early cutoff date for a map like this. I mean...how much could really happen before then?

Anyway, being an Islands map, I decided to send off my starting scout with a galley when I got one. For one, I wanted that stupid hut that was blocked by the mountains of course, but I figured he might find others. That hut only gave me gold, but the next one was much better, giving me Compass. That's a pretty rare drop.

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s91/shadow2kbucket/Compass.jpg

My tech path:
Agriculture
Animal Husbandry
Wheel
Mining
Bronze Working
Mysticism
Sailing
Iron Working
Compass (hut)
Archery
Pottery
Writing
Alphabet (220BC)
Mathematics (trade)
Meditation (trade)
Masonry (trade)
Polytheism (trade)
Priesthood (trade)
Monotheism (trade)
Construction
Code of Laws (trade)
Monarchy (trade)
Philosophy (bulbed, got Taoism)
Metal Casting
Currency (trade)
Literature (trade)
Calendar (trade)
Civil Service
----------- Cutoff Date --------

I was able to make a ton of trades, mainly because the other civs weren't able to contact each other. That's pretty much my fault, because I kept closed borders to keep them from meeting. I only opened borders with Russia early on, for the trade routes, and to get past her culture.

I was also out-teching them early on, because I prioritized Iron Working fairly early for me, allowing me to clear the jungle and get Gems online. Plus we didn't have any copper, so I wanted to know where the Iron was ASAP. I'm guessing they went out of their way to put it where it was, and had a good laugh while they were doing it. Funny stuff...

This was my situation when I discovered Alpha. Huanya wouldn't trade with me because he didn't know anyone else.

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s91/shadow2kbucket/Alphabet.jpg

And finally, here's my city placement.

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s91/shadow2kbucket/CityPlacement.jpg

Nidaros was founded in 1960BC to get the horses. I placed it that way so that it could build land based military, and pretty much nothing but. 3 hills + horses is decent for a military city...especially given the land we had. It had pigs for food, forests for health and production later on, was on fresh water, and only lost one tile to the sea. I intended on going for domination, because I wanted to put the Zerk's to good use...so I needed an early military powerhouse...and after about 30min of debating where, I finally settled on that spot. Domination is probably not the ideal victory for this type of map, but I don't really care about scores that much.

Uppsala was founded in 1330BC. I wanted both seafood tiles here, and farmed it over to use as a Great Person Farm. It gave me the Great Scientist that bulbed Philosophy and got me my first taste of religion. Although I never converted to any religion and stayed in Paganism for a long time. I find religion to cause more problems than it's worth, and usually just stay away from it.

Haithabu was founded in 730BC. For the Iron of course. But also, it would build my navy. It did build some land troops at times as well.

Birka was founded in 220BC. It was to be cottaged up, get the Gems, and would take most of the lake tiles for food. I placed it that way for one, to be on fresh water, two, the lake was the only source of food to grow into the cottages...and last, it provided a canal going north/south through my entire island along with Haithabu. The other bonus was that Haithabu could build a land unit, load it in a galley that I'd keep there all game, and unload it in Birka on the same turn. A throwback to the C3 days of AW games, where cities had to support each other by founding them two tiles apart. I didn't want to keep large garrisons, because I'd need to build many troops and boats to conquer the rest of the world. So anything I could save here would help. The overlap wasn't a big deal, as it doesn't come into play until much later in the game...and getting off to a good start is more important. I planned on having many, many other cities by the time the three inner cities were hurting for tiles, so it wouldn't matter in the long run. They could just run specialists if it came down to it.

I didn't found a city on the northern coast at all. With no food tiles, I really didn't want to bother. I didn't want the higher maintenance either, as I'd be grabbing all the cities I could handle in the not too distant future, and State Property was a ways off. I'd get those Calendar resources without building a city regardless, and they're not really great tiles to work anyway.

I built no early wonders at all at this stage of the game. I normally build at least one, like the Oracle, or GLibrary. But with so few good cities, I needed to put my effort elsewhere. Like building a formidable army, and a navy to ship it around the world. I was planning on Rome being my first target. He was close, and grabbing a bunch of wonders that I wouldn't mind having. I'd have Berzerkers, so Praets didn't matter. That all changed, but it will have to wait until next time...

The Plan
Tried a few test games, without much success at getting a good position.
Admittedly, all of these were with my home island at one of the poles, usually with plenty of sea-food, but a very poor island otherwise. I could see this was going to be a slightly different challenge, placed as we were on the equator.

My ambitions in each were to be in a position to invade a near neighbour with axemen by 500-400BC.
To achieve this I reckoned I needed: a sea-fleet – galleys and triremes & a whole bunch of axemen.
To achieve those aims, I need: sailing and bronze-working, and a production base of probably 4 cities to pump out enough units. We obviously need workers to chop forests, and mine the bronze, amongst other things.
We’ll probably also need tech that allows us to expand our cultural borders – Mysticism-Meditation-Priesthood is a good route. Perhaps we’ll need some other household techs like Agri or Animal Husb – as we find necessary.

In the light of my trial games experiences, I felt that I needed to be very precise in the early years – rather like the old Quick Start Challenges I remembered from CIV3 days.

What actually happened

Founded in place, and quickly scouted out the island. The scout became known as a lion slayer, but was less useful against bears – and that was the end of him!
One of our early work-boats did a bit of mapping of the western isles before returning home to work.

About this time I decided on sites for my next 3 cities, each planned to take in multiple resources. That would be the 4-city base I had intended.

The research path went: Mining – Animal H (after I spotted the pigs) – Sailing (Huge head-slapping moment. I’d considered sailing or bronze at this point. Decided on bronze, but selected the wrong one and ddn’t notice until too late to change it usefully. This meant any chopping I had planned was delayed by about 20 turns. So much for the QSC exactitude! Idiot! :crazyeye: ) – then BronzeWorking – Mysticism – Wheel – Meditation – Priesthood – IronWorking.

Obviously, when I reached BronzeWorking I made the discovery that there was none to be had, and my plan of an early axe-smash-and-grab raid had to be modified. When I got IronWorking, I hadn’t been fortunate enough to have settled nearby, so had to whisk out a quick settler to found my 5th city on the island just to the south.

I’d got my first galley out just about as I was founding my 3rd city – in 1330BC. It headed north without any success and curved off to the east, where we met Cathy in about 1090BC. We followed this with a trireme, which went south – discovering Augustus – before moving on west and meeting Huayna Capac.

Somewhere around 660BC, I made an inventory of my neighbours’ military. Cathy had archers an spears. Augustus hadn’t let us close enough to find out, and HC had quechuas and archers. I was researching IronWorking at the time, and was hopeful that swordsmen would be more than a match for anything my rivals could muster up.

I hadn’t chosen my first opponent at that stage, but then Cathy sealed her fate :viking: by demanding Fish, or else!

By the turn of the millennium, I had iron and my first swordsmen were heading for the boats. In 35AD I declared, and invaded. It wasn’t quite as fast as I had hoped (or as early!) but in 30 turns we had destroyed the Russian civilization! All were burned apart from Moscow – and stonehenge –which we kept.

At the Cut-off Date

So, first blood, and now we reach the end of the early period looking for our next victim. Augustus is quite friendly, recent aquaintance Asoka too, but HC is a possible, as is Isabella (who we met only recently, but exhibited such instant charm that we put her straight on the shortlist)

Score-wise we’re still looking awful. We were bottom, and now we’ve despatched Cathy we’re still bottom of the living civs. However, score doesn’t mean everything. :evil:

Silly me also eventually founded a city on the interior lake next to the gems, not knowing I couldn't build a lighthouse if I built it there.

:lol: But it meant you got the iron, no? (I settled Uppsala NE of the gems so I could build a trading post and get a nice commerce city, but of course frustratingly out of reach of the iron when the iron revealed itself)


That's what I thought, but it turned out that although I could work it for some reason it didn't count as my having the resource. Those mountains prevented me from connecting it by road to the city, and it seems maybe being able to take a resource along sea-coast inside your borders comes before being able to take a resource along lake-shore inside your borders -- the sea-cost side of the iron was outside the border, but the lake-shore was inside. I thought it would count as accessbile via the lake shore, but apparently not.

In any case, I ended up founding a city on top of the second iron on the small island to the south to take the nearby crabs, and definitely provide the iron resource.

I went into this Gotm without much of a plan about how to win. I wanted to try to get the Great Lighthouse and Colossus to try to create the greatest Island-Civ ever, making full use of the Financial Trait and massing up Trade Routes. For this the start location didn't look ideal, but I decided to settle in spot to have a good city for settler and worker production and in the future a nice town-spam city. I decided to honor my Swedish blood by naming my capital Birka and started on a work boat for fast growth.

My main short-term goal was now to get a second city founded on a good production site for building the Great Lighthouse. Science-wise I opted for BW to chop the first settler out as quickly as possible. My timing was working good, Worker was finished one turn after BW came in and he started chopping on the settler. Meanwhile my Scout had found a promising site for my next city, just east of the jungle, with 3 possible grassland hills in the fat cross. Nidaros was founded as my second city and started directly on Trading Post (req for Great Lighthouse). Birka soon finished a second worker and both of them mined and chopped all they could around Nidaros to get the Trading Post finished in just 14 turns. I had a couple of wasted turns here in Nidaros before Masonry came in and I could start on Great Lighthouse, but no big harm done. With not much to do I decided to go for Stonehenge in Birka in order to get some culture. Birka finished the Stonehenge 1450BC. If I remember right, the Oracle was built in 1570BC by another civ, one of my fastest ever on this level. I am glad I didn't try to get that one.


Start (4000 BC)
Birka founded
Research begun: Mining
Birka begins: Work Boat
Turn 7 (3790 BC)
Birka's borders expand
Turn 11 (3670 BC)
Tech learned: Mining
Buddhism founded in a distant land
Turn 12 (3640 BC)
Research begun: Bronze Working
Turn 16 (3520 BC)
Birka grows: 2
Turn 20 (3400 BC)
Birka finishes: Work Boat
Turn 21 (3370 BC)
Birka begins: Worker
Turn 32 (3040 BC)
Tech learned: Bronze Working
Turn 33 (3010 BC)
Research begun: Sailing
Birka finishes: Worker
Turn 34 (2980 BC)
Birka begins: Settler
Turn 47 (2590 BC)
Birka finishes: Settler
Hinduism founded in a distant land
Turn 48 (2560 BC)
Birka begins: Worker
Turn 50 (2500 BC)
Tech learned: Sailing
Turn 51 (2470 BC)
Research begun: Mysticism
Turn 54 (2380 BC)
Nidaros founded
Nidaros begins: Trading Post
Turn 58 (2260 BC)
Judaism founded in a distant land
Turn 60 (2200 BC)
Tech learned: Mysticism
Birka finishes: Worker
Turn 61 (2170 BC)
Research begun: Masonry
Birka begins: Stonehenge
Turn 66 (2020 BC)
Birka grows: 3
Turn 68 (1960 BC)
Nidaros finishes: Trading Post
Turn 69 (1930 BC)
Nidaros begins: Galley
Nidaros grows: 2
Turn 71 (1870 BC)
Tech learned: Masonry
Turn 72 (1840 BC)
Research begun: Animal Husbandry
Nidaros begins: The Great Lighthouse
Turn 75 (1750 BC)
Birka's borders expand
Turn 77 (1690 BC)
Birka grows: 4
Turn 85 (1450 BC)
Tech learned: Animal Husbandry
Birka finishes: Stonehenge
Turn 86 (1420 BC)
Research begun: Iron Working
Birka begins: Settler
Nidaros grows: 3
Turn 96 (1120 BC)
Birka finishes: Settler
Turn 97 (1090 BC)
Birka begins: Warrior
Turn 98 (1060 BC)
Birka finishes: Warrior
Turn 99 (1030 BC)
Birka begins: Trading Post
Birka grows: 5
Nidaros's borders expand
Turn 100 (1000 BC)


The Great Lighthouse was finished in 790BC, providing a good base for my trading income. I managed to get Compass from a hut on an island to the south. Uppsala was founded in the bottom right corner of our island. Once I got IW I recognized the sweet-spot between the mountains that would get 2xIron, Gems, Pigs, Crabs and 3 Lake Tiles in the fat cross!! I decided to get my next city founded there and named it Stockholm. Stockholm would be the perfect place to build the Colossus. It would be isolated from the rest of the island, but I didn't see a problem in that. Stockholm was also the first city that received a Religion - Confucianism, and I converted right away. It spread quickly on it's own to 2 or 3 more of my cities which was a nice and welcome surprise.

I quickly got a couple of gallies out to look for my neighbours and had found them all already by 400 BC. In about 150BC I had circum-navigated the globe, giving me the nice bonus of an extra movement for all ships. Together with my Navigation skill it really would give me the upperhand on this map when it comes to fighting on the see or settling islands. My first Great Person was a Prophet and I used him as a super-Priest in Stockholm to boost it's production further.


Turn 101 (985 BC)
Birka finishes: Trading Post
Turn 103 (955 BC)
Contact made: Russian Empire
Turn 104 (940 BC)
Uppsala founded
Turn 108 (880 BC)
Tech learned: Iron Working
Birka finishes: Galley
Turn 114 (790 BC)
Nidaros finishes: The Great Lighthouse
Turn 115 (775 BC)
Tech learned: Compass
Tribal village results: technology
Tech learned: Agriculture
Turn 116 (760 BC)
Birka finishes: Settler
Turn 117 (745 BC)
Nidaros finishes: Warrior
Turn 120 (700 BC)
Stockholm founded
Tech learned: The Wheel
Turn 121 (685 BC)
Uppsala finishes: Work Boat
Turn 124 (640 BC)
Tech learned: Pottery
Turn 126 (610 BC)
Birka finishes: Galley
Turn 128 (580 BC)
Contact made: Incan Empire
Turn 130 (550 BC)
Birka finishes: Worker
Turn 135 (475 BC)
Confucianism founded in a distant land
Turn 138 (430 BC)
Contact made: Indian Empire
Birka finishes: Work Boat
Nidaros finishes: Harbor
Turn 140 (400 BC)
Contact made: Spanish Empire
Contact made: American Empire
Contact made: Roman Empire
Confucianism has spread: Stockholm
Turn 142 (370 BC)
Birka finishes: Granary
Uppsala finishes: Trading Post
Stockholm finishes: Trading Post
Turn 143 (355 BC)
Birka finishes: Work Boat
Turn 149 (265 BC)
Uppsala finishes: Worker
Turn 150 (250 BC)
Tech learned: Metal Casting
Birka finishes: Worker
Turn 152 (220 BC)
Nidaros finishes: Settler
Turn 153 (205 BC)
Tech learned: Meditation
Turn 155 (175 BC)
Haithabu founded
Stockholm finishes: Harbor
Turn 157 (145 BC)
Tech learned: Writing
Turn 159 (115 BC)
Nidaros finishes: Barracks
Turn 160 (100 BC)
St. Augustine (Great Prophet) born in Birka
Uppsala finishes: Barracks
Turn 163 (55 BC)
Birka finishes: Galley
Turn 165 (25 BC)
Birka grows: 8
Buddhism has spread: Haithabu
Turn 166 (10 BC)
Tech learned: Alphabet
Birka finishes: Harbor


At 0AD I was in a good position for getting the Colossus built (monopoly on Metal Casting, and Stockholm being a monster production city). The other cities are concentrating on settling islands around me. I tried to avoid settling islands that would not give at least a useful resource or giving me some production. With 3 harbors and the Great Lighthouse I already had a nice income coming in from trades. I was not leading in score, but was tied in the top of the tech-race with my monopoly on Metal Casting and I felt confident. I had a good base to continue from and could now concentrate on my next goal, getting my Berserkers online, but that's a story for the next spoiler tread...

That's what I thought, but it turned out that although I could work it for some reason it didn't count as my having the resource. Those mountains prevented me from connecting it by road to the city, and it seems maybe being able to take a resource along sea-coast inside your borders comes before being able to take a resource along lake-shore inside your borders -- the sea-cost side of the iron was outside the border, but the lake-shore was inside. I thought it would count as accessbile via the lake shore, but apparently not.

In any case, I ended up founding a city on top of the second iron on the small island to the south to take the nearby crabs, and definitely provide the iron resource.

I don't know how to formulate this nicely, but a land based resource can not be connected to your empire if you can't move a unit from the resource tile to any of your cities.

I don't know how to formulate this nicely, but a land based resource can not be connected to your empire if you can't move a unit from the resource tile to any of your cities.
Not 100% true.. it can also be connected if it is next to a river or there is a road from the resource to a river.. and the river runs out into coast

I think the details are: In order for a city to count as having a land-resource, the resource needs to be connected to the city. The following count as a connection:
1. Continuous road from the tile to the city.
2. Continuous road/river route to the city. Road/river connections are made by having either a road or the destination city adjacent to the river.

3. Once one city has the resource, it can reach other cities either by 1 or 2, or, if both cities are coastal, along the coast.

Things I'm less certain of:
1. Going by road seems to work in neutral territory, though it's blocked by another civs territory if you are at war. I think it's also blocked by another civ's territory if you're not at war but don't have open borders. However I'm a bit confused by that because I'm sure I've noticed trade routes with other civ's don't seem to be blocked, other than by outright war. ??? (I'd have expected inter-civ trade routes to have worked the same way as intra-civ ones? Or do the trade routes that give your cities commerce have different requirements from the ones that let you supply other civs with your resources?)

2. Going by coast also seems to be blocked if the coast goes through neutral territory (which going by road isn't)? At least until you get astronomy, then you can go over (neutral) oceans anyway. I had some impression that sailing also opened up something here? Do you need sailing for any coastal trade route to work, or does fishing suffice?

(And yes, the conclusion of all that seems to be that unless you put a city between the mountains, there's no way for the iron there to actually count as an iron resource, because neither coast nor freshwater lake can connect directly to roads. Only rivers and cities can do that).

Not 100% true.. it can also be connected if it is next to a river or there is a road from the resource to a river.. and the river runs out into coast

Not 100% true.. your capital must be connected to the coast as well (through roads and/or rivers) :lol:

You are indeed correct regarding river on isolated islands (I had to check in the worldbuilder first). I can't remember that it has happened to me though (resource within culture on an island close to river) but I will keep that in mind if it happens. Thanks for the correction.

Vikings to the stars, or at least that's the plan from the start. I've never done a spaceship victory before, so I figure it's time to try. Founded my capitol in place and started a workboat. I went workboat > warrior > warrior > worker > warrior > settler > settler to start if I remember. Starting techs were Mining > Bronzeworking > Ironworking > Wheel > Pottery > Sailing > Animal Husbandry > Writing > Alphabet.

I'm using a rex strategy and keeping to the coast. Second city was just NE of the gems with the goal to make a production city. Third was on the east of the island, just north of the one hill, in a place where it eventually gets clams and fish and will be c/s. Forth is to the right of the horses, a mix of production and science. Fifth was inbetween the two silk, and will be c/s. Sixth was east of the iron, where the goody hut was. A map! bleah. :D Have three more city sites planned, but need to get my economy going better. Produced 4 workers total and cleared all the jungle. Have a couple of cottages built near each city, currently getting libraries online. 35AD and the world has not been circumnavigated yet. I'm also trying to get at least 2 forest to grow near each city, but it isn't easy.

Catherine is pleased with me, and the tech leader by one tech. HC is cautious as is Julius. Haven't met the other inhabitants yet.

1. Going by road seems to work in neutral territory, though it's blocked by another civs territory if you are at war. I think it's also blocked by another civ's territory if you're not at war but don't have open borders. However I'm a bit confused by that because I'm sure I've noticed trade routes with other civ's don't seem to be blocked, other than by outright war. ??? (I'd have expected inter-civ trade routes to have worked the same way as intra-civ ones? Or do the trade routes that give your cities commerce have different requirements from the ones that let you supply other civs with your resources?)

2. Going by coast also seems to be blocked if the coast goes through neutral territory (which going by road isn't)? At least until you get astronomy, then you can go over (neutral) oceans anyway. I had some impression that sailing also opened up something here? Do you need sailing for any coastal trade route to work, or does fishing suffice?

I played with the world builder and came up with the following:

You need to explore the coast in order to use it as a coastal trade route.
Barbarian culture will block the coastal trade route
AI without open borders will not block the coastal trade route
AI in war with you will block the coastal trade route
Neutral coast will not block the coastal trade route

Yes, you need sailing to use coast as trade route. Ocean tiles can be used as trade routes when you know astronomy. Fishing just enables you to work water tiles.

You can trade resources/gold with AI even if you don't have an open border agreement. One example is when you get paid gold/turn for peace.

I am not sure I am following this debate completely. Is it a comment on whb connecting the iron by building a city on the southern island right on top of it? If so, that certainly connects the iron to your civ.

I built a city on top of the iron on the island south of the continent and immediately had access to iron. I had Sailing at the time. Much later I landed a worker in the saddle between the two mountains and connected the other iron.

I am not sure I am following this debate completely. Is it a comment on whb connecting the iron by building a city on the southern island right on top of it? If so, that certainly connects the iron to your civ.

I built a city on top of the iron on the island south of the continent and immediately had access to iron. I had Sailing at the time. Much later I landed a worker in the saddle between the two mountains and connected the other iron.

They're talking about if there was any way to connect that northern Iron between the two mountains without building a city there. Some people though it would be connected by the coast, or that lake...which is not the case.

Thanks shadow2k.

I founded in place and built a workboat first. Then explored the entire island. Built five cities, one on the SW island. Then settled in to research my way into last place.

I thought I was doing okay, only to find out, as I met more and more of my kind and wonderful neighbors, that I was in last place. Of course, you can always win in Civ. At least that is what the experts say. (Wish I were an expert). Augustus is the big kid on the block in my game. Fortunately we have a great relationship. We are both Confucians. He is close, big and friendly. That can’t hurt as the game goes on.

I see that some of you got silver on the hills near the capital. That must have provided quite a boost. I was not that lucky.

There were no wars up to 500 AD. I think everyone was trying to figure out where all the other civs were.

The game has been a great trading experience. That was the only way I was able to keep up. Selectively choosing techs that I could trade and clawing my way back into the game. At 500 AD I’m still in last place, but heading upward.

hm...in my game, I managed to found 5 cities on the main island by 500AD, and oen on the second iron off the island, as others have, to gain access to iron.

I used two workboats, exploring in opposite directions to meet every civ by 500BC and gain circumnavigation in around 900BC. I also had buddhism spread to me from Roosevelt, who got it from Izzy. Thus at 1AD, Izzy, Roosevelt, Cathy, Huayna, and I were all buddhist. I was thinking of doing a berserker sea assault on Rome, which was Jewish at that point razing all his cities so Askoa could take over the space, become a superpower, and be my diplo opponent against an entirely buddhist world.

How quickly things change....Rossevelt founded Confuscianism, converted, and then converted Cathy. Rome converted Huayna to Judaism, leaving myself and Izzy as the only buddhists...and she would no longer trade techs with me as 'I was becoming too advanced.' I began fearing I had chosen the wrong ally, especially when Huayna decided to pick a fight.

Huayna declared war on me, and I was just starting to trade my way back up to par in tech when 500AD hit. I was close to CS, which would hopefully give me an unbeatable edge over Huayna since he didn't yet have Feudalism.

As a side note: Izzy is currently +17 with me...I've never had her even be pleased with me before, she must really really love people who are her own religion.

Is anyone else playing Challenger? It's, um, how shall I put it.... Completely insane? Something like that. I haven't traded for a single tech, because I've never had anything anyone wanted. Even when I lightbulbed Philosophy, all the AIs already knew it. I feel like I'm researching fairly well -- it's 5 AD, I've got Philosophy/CoL/Monarchy, and I'm partway through CS. They're simply faster. I'm sure I won't get to CS first, but maybe if I stay on a hard beeline to Education I can use it to backfill stuff. I'm thinking of bailing to cultural, though my cities aren't well-placed for it (all coastal in the vain hope of getting the GLH) and only one religion has spread to me so far.

peace,
lilnev

Initialy I wanted to skip this WOTM due to some RL issues, but then I thought "Vikings? on the island map? fast ships, cool UU, that should be fun and easy!" and went in as a contender.

Settled in place, founded Hindu. I put second city on the other end of the island to work fish, clams and eventualy gems. Third city between two horses. Also built Stonehenge, to get free border expansion.
I sent a workboat east to explore. Met Cathy and other guys.
The workboat revealed two goody huts, so I built a galley and a scout in the capital (even before I had a trading post) and took those huts. First one gave me experience, and second Iron Working. Iron! Iron is revealed now, and this calls for the change of plan for the 4th city location. I want this city between those 2 mountains, to work 2 Irons, gems and a fresh water lake. This is going to be terrific city, both high food and production!
My work boat found Roo, who declares on Isabella. Have fun, guys!

I put my 4th city onto cpecified location, with the worker to build the Iron mine. Barb galley shows up and pillages my eastern fish, then goes for clams, scared away by Russian and Roman triremes, and finaly pillages clams too. Bastards!
My religion spreads to 3 Russian cities, but not to a single city of my own. Russians convert and we are pals.
Eventually it spreads to my Iron city (wich I named Monterrey, not to be confused with Monterey in California - this one got 2 Rs) and said city gets border expansion.
By the way, I'm dead last in score but that doesn't bother me at all, reseach wise I'm in line.

By the time my iron mine is finished, the fleet of 2 Roman galleys supported by 2 triremes shows up from the south.
Now, I don't like that at all. First, I can't see who's in the ships - I didn't knew about this new Warlords feature.
Second, it can not be the Settler galley, this is the invasion fleet! I'm toast!
They can go to my undefended Monterrey or to my capital, defended by a lonely warrior.
Well, to cut the long story short, Romans declared on me, landed on my Iron mine, captured the worker and raised my Monterrey (size 1), leaving me without the iron.
(actually, as I understand now, they did a classical worker steal!)
They landed 3 archers and 1 chariot.
I whip Archers in all my 3 cities.
Next turn another galley shows up, lands Settler and Archer on my iron island.
Romans founded the city of Mediolanum on my small iron island.

Now here is perhaps a bug in the AI - they left their 4 units on the shore between 2 mountains and left.
Perhaps AI thinks that since they are on the same land mass, they can reach my cities, while in fact they can't.
OTOH, when they bring the next wave of attackers, they can land the new pack, then pick up old units and thus have x2 bigger invasion force!
I'm scared.
On top of that, I don't have access to the iron now, so if Romans show up with praetoreans, I'm dead.
I don't know what to think.
I decided the best way is to build up the Navy and intercept the next wave of attackers while they're in the boats. Or may be try to block coastal access.
Then gather up forces and remove the Roman city, may be this will convince Augustus Caesar to make peace.
Besides, I can't access Roman mainland since I will have to go through the ocean tile in their cultural borders, right?
I mean, I remeber all that cry from GOTM 14 when we where Napoleon.
This is turned out wrong, another difference between Warlords and Vanilla.

Meanwhile, my eastbound workboat sees orange Incaish cultural borders but can't get there through the ocean.
I land my idle scout onto Incas land then and circumnavigate through the combined action of the scout and workboat, in the late BC years.

The story of the military engagement against Romans will be told in the next spoiler.

My first WOTM quit in disgust (although I have been back to replay with some much more pleasing results but, obviously, no submission :() after some truely terrible luck/desicions.

Point 1
My inital scout amazingly defeats a bear whilst stood on grassland. He gets Woodsman I as a promotion and I move him to a jungle hill to recover. Whilst there he is attacked and killed by a wolf. This all before I have even explored all of my starting island.

Point 2
I decide against going for the Great Lighthouse and instead focus on the Colussus. I use slowrider's guidelines from here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=207163&page=2) on when the AI is likely to build early wonders and I'm on target, especially using the axe and whip. I get beaten four turns out by an AI 50 turns off the earliest time slowrider had recorded. Sure I get a bunch of cash but I've also wasted all those lovely forests around my capital.

Point 3
My biggest mistake was not building an iron city on the southern shores of the lake as soon as I could. Instead, by the time I get round to building a settler Asoka has turned up and plonked a city down on the island to the south. This means that my iron city is defiently pushed for space although I do get the iron.

Point 4
I make building cultral buildings in my iron city a priority, knowing that without some culture I'm not going to get the extra iron. Asoka then dumps a GA in the city, his borders expand and not oinly am I left with no iron but my city flips in the bargin.

I spend the rest of the evening shooting hyperactyive 12 year olds in the head on BF2142 as an outlet for my unbelievable frustration.

oh, speaking of which...I also missed out on the only wonder I attempted, the Great Library. I chopped every forest around the capital in an attempt to get it built in time and was about 5 turns away from being able to rush it at a cost of 4 pop, when Caesar built it...from what I've gathered at 500AD(having gotten OB with everyone at one point or another and thus explored everyone's land except Asoka's), Caesar, despite having what appears at first glance to be a tundraw wasteland, has built virtually every single wonder this game. Thus, he's in my sights to be the next victim after Huayna pays for his assault on me.

I'm going to try Challenger. Not sure just what the AI = Settler will mean, but here goes.

Scout NE-NW, settle in place. Worker-workboat-warrior-warrior while growing to size 5 (working the lake tile for commerce most of the time). Expecting an isolated start, there isn't the rush to grab the best city spots. Research AH-Mining-BW. Tons of food = whipping.

My scout didn't get far before losing a 90% fight. Lots of grassland, limited food specials, Financial leader. Cottages ftw?

Buddhism and Hinduism went fast, then Judaism in 2980 BC. That was quick. There are at least 2 civs starting with Myst and one serious religious hardcore.

Cities founded N of Gems and E of Pigs.

IW to clear jungle. I'm not expecting to be able to trade for it, and I want those Gems. Then Writing for libraries (avoiding monuments most places, as the inner ring of tiles is fine), Sailing-Mysticism-Masonry to start the GLH. Then Poly-Priest-Monarchy for cheap happiness.

Christianity in 775 BC. Someone's really nuts.

I get beat to the GLH in 505 BC. Oh well, looks like no fastest finish for me. I really don't like the GLH because of the huge variability in when the AI gets it. A few turns later I spy Russian Red to the east, then meet Augustus in 390 BC. He's very advanced. Monarchy in 355 BC, research CoL. Pig/Horse city is running scientists for the Philosophy lightbulb. Switch to Caste System for several turns to run 4-5 scientists. Then I fill in Meditation and realize that everyone already has Philosophy.

Um, guys? Did anyone playtest these settings? The AIs are going quite a bit faster than Immortal, maybe even faster than Deity.

CS in 200 AD, everyone but Asoka already has it, and he'll only give me Currency+60. Most folks have Paper.

320 AD. Paper. Only Asoka doesn't have it (this is what counts as "backwards"), but he's close: he won't even trade me a map for it. Onwards to Education!

410 AD. I made the mistake of actually connecting Iron. Oops. Dumb, dumb, dumb. I hope that mistake doesn't cost me this game, but it might. Now I can't train warriors for 15 hammers/happy face. I have to waste a turn on Archery, and thereafter my cheapest garrison troops under HR cost 37 hammers, instead of 27. Well, I'll have to live with it.

Isabella demands that I convert to Hinduism, and I do. Two turns of anarchy is worth it for +2 relations (+1 vs -1 for refusing) in the long run.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/98640/wotm040000.JPG
My city placements. Again, I wasn't anticipating needing cultural victory. I've now got six cities and two religions, so I can give it a shot.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/98640/wotm060000.JPG
All the AIs are identical in their techs. Education won't be tradable. I'm going to Liberalism anyway for Free Speech, then Music, then hope.

If anyone actually wins on Challenger, I want to see it. But, "Among other bonuses, the AI receives higher happiness and health limits" really wasn't fair warning.

peace,
lilnev

Point 3
My biggest mistake was not building an iron city on the southern shores of the lake as soon as I could. Instead, by the time I get round to building a settler Asoka has turned up and plonked a city down on the island to the south. This means that my iron city is defiently pushed for space although I do get the iron.


Similar thing happened to me... It was Augustus, not Asoka, but he ploped down on the Iron of Iron island before I got to between the two mountains. Luckily, I had just got litterature, so I rushed to Music, and used the gree GA to push his borders back (and actually fliped him a couple of dozen turns later.

@lilnev: Is there an option to name your screenshots? Where's that?

I guess after joining in the discussions about other people's spoilers I ought to get round to actually writing my own one. After all, if I wait much longer I’ll totally kill my chances of getting to be the first spoiler post in the thread won’t I … ;)

Well here’s my little Civ at 500-ish AD

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/4175/wotm06500adpw3.th.jpg (http://img87.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wotm06500adpw3.jpg)

The Grand Plan

I started on the assumption that I’d fill the home island, perhaps take advantage of the AI’s relatively poor ability to colonize on sea-based maps to land-grab a lot of outlying islands too, and get a great-library/colossus-fuelled fast science output, presumably to the spacerace (coz that’s what I always seem to end up doing…) I also decided to prioritize trading posts everywhere and the circumnavigation bonus.

I settled in-place but only after a turn of exploring South with the settler.

Early Techs (Texts?) and Builds

Went for BW first, then then beelined for sailing, then alphabet. After I saw the lack of copper, as well as the jungle-buried gems, I seriously thought of going for iron working early, but decided to try and trade for it. Unfortunately I discovered alphabet so early that noone was willing to trade much anyway, since although I’d met most civs they mainly hadn’t met each other. So I ended up researching IW myself anyway. Why can’t the AI cooperate more when you need it to help you win the game eh!

Builds: Workboat (for the fish), workboat (to explore west), [think I threw in a warrior or two here], trading post, workboat (to explore east). (This btw was the point where I realized that a trading post doesn't give +1 movement to workboats :blush:)

Yeah, you noticed the lack of workers there. I was using slavery to rush everything I wanted. Since I was building trading posts everywhere, I could use the 2food/3commerce coastal tiles to keep my science up, so there didn’t seem much point cottaging initially, or in mining the hills, and the gems were inaccessible before iron working. There wasn’t much that any workers could do! So I spent the early game basically poprushing to fill the continent, and secure granaries and trading posts in all cities.

I did get the circumnavigation bonus, IIRC before 1000BC. I was highly amused at the strip of ocean that stopped you going west of Huayna. (My western workboat spent many years exploring every nook and cranny round there to try and find a route before giving up). Also amused in the early AD years to see at one point that all the civs knew everyone else, except Huayna (who only knew me). Can’t blame me, Huayna, I allowed open borders, I wasn’t trying to stop you.


Problems


Trouble is, I got a bit too addicted to the sea-commerce, and what with the poprushing the trading posts, somehow at 500AD I still hadn’t got round to building workers or cottaging much. Not only that but he only early cottage I built was on the pigs in the capital, on the basis that since I wasn’t getting animal husbandry for a while, I may as well get some additional benefit from that tile. But of course that meant when I did get animal husbandry, I lost that cottage. Looking at my 500AD map now, I’m amazed how undeveloped the land is. But sometimes you just don’t notice stuff when you’re caught up in the game. And the infrastructure in my cities was all quite good.

The other trouble, as various other people here have noticed, was the lack of hammers. That kinda sconched any thoughts of wonders. I didn’t even try to build either the colossus or the great library, the two I really wanted. I guessed that I’d just be wasting the few hammers I did have. So I considered plan B: Capture them. Trouble was, the AI wasn’t playing fair on this either. Look at where the wonders are:

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/3219/wotm06wonders500adaf9.th.jpg (http://img87.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wotm06wonders500adaf9.jpg)

Washington and Caesar are basically building everything. Washington is too far away for an early conquest. And I could rule out Caesar too since in 500AD I didn’t even have much idea where Caesar was. Well, correction, I had a strong suspicion he was South of me, since I could see odd border tiles, but it was obvious there was no direct galley-accessible route. And in what was clearly a deliberate plan to confuse me about his location (I tell you, these AIs have got it in for me this game), he’d planted the City of Ravenna in between Russia and America So perhaps he was there? Either way, he was too inaccessible to attack. So, looks like no wonders for me for a looooong time. (btw, lots of people are talking in this spoiler about attacking Caesar. I’d love to know how you guys were planning to get to him :crazyeye: )

I wasn’t doing great people either so no lightbulbing. No wonders, but also I hadn’t founded any cities with enough food to become great people farms. This is bad. (Wish I’d had the foresight to see the potential of that gem/pig/clam/(iron) site between the mountains. That would’ve made a real difference.


Solutions. Viking Style.

So in 500AD I’d just declared war on Catherine, whose main crime was to be the only Civ who looked close enough to be worth attacking. And to have some nicely developed cottages that I needed. Yes, other people use workers to build cottages. I’m going to war to get them. Well, isn’t that what the Vikings sorta did…? :mischief:

Um, guys? Did anyone playtest these settings? The AIs are going quite a bit faster than Immortal, maybe even faster than Deity.

I tested the settings.. and didnt really feel that the difference was that big... guess it was more down to random luck.
In hindsight I should perhaps only have dropped the AIs difficulty to Warlords (or perhaps chieftain) - I will certainly try to use warlords difficulty some time in the future.

Atleast you got to experience the 'challenge' part in challenger :)

... And I could rule out Caesar too since in 500AD I didn’t even have much idea where Caesar was. Well, correction, I had a strong suspicion he was South of me, since I could see odd border tiles, but it was obvious there was no direct galley-accessible route. And in what was clearly a deliberate plan to confuse me about his location (I tell you, these AIs have got it in for me this game), he’d planted the City of Ravenna in between Russia and America So perhaps he was there? Either way, he was too inaccessible to attack. So, looks like no wonders for me for a looooong time. (btw, lots of people are talking in this spoiler about attacking Caesar. I’d love to know how you guys were planning to get to him :crazyeye: )


I expect it was down to where Caesar decided to plant his cities. In my game (although I didn't attack him) there was a route through to the south-west. You might just be able to see the edge of his border in this screenshot from 485AD:

I expect it was down to where Caesar decided to plant his cities. In my game (although I didn't attack him) there was a route through to the south-west. You might just be able to see the edge of his border in this screenshot from 485AD:

Ah yes, I see what you mean, so I guess some people could reach him in that way. Doing that you'd have to avoid attacking the first city you came to, as that would leave your troops stranded when Caesar's borders collapse :) (Which would be quite an amusing mistake to make. Well, probably more amusing if someone else makes it :mischief: )

@lilnev: Is there an option to name your screenshots? Where's that?
The "Enter screen shot name" box comes up when I press shift-PrtScn. What I haven't figured out is how to keep it from showing up in the screenshot.


Atleast you got to experience the 'challenge' part in challenger :)
Actually it's kind of fun. The cast of AIs are diplomatically tractable (crosses fingers), so it feels like a peaceful Deity challenge. It's just a lot more than I was expecting. Liberalism went in 500 AD, for example.

peace,
lilnev

Ah yes, I see what you mean, so I guess some people could reach him in that way. Doing that you'd have to avoid attacking the first city you came to, as that would leave your troops stranded when Caesar's borders collapse :) (Which would be quite an amusing mistake to make. Well, probably more amusing if someone else makes it :mischief: )

:blush: Yep... I did that... Luckily, my initial force was big enough to take 3 or 4 other cities before I had to stop, wait for the first city I took to rebuild enough culture to connect me up again and let me bring reinforcements.:blush:

I had a culture bridge I could cross to reach Caesar. I was planning on pop-rushing a cat and Zerk assault force that could fit on 3 or 4 galleys, then aim directly for Rome. I was more interested in taking all his good coastal cities and then vassaling him afterward, which meant starting with his farther cities and moving back toward my culture bridge, so that reinforcements would take less time.

The "Enter screen shot name" box comes up when I press shift-PrtScn. What I haven't figured out is how to keep it from showing up in the screenshot.


I use just Print-Screen, then you don't get the pop-up.

Well, my first priority was to settle the island quickly. I actually made a dotmpa that I pondered for a while. I placed my cities well, or so I thought. I should actually have made a super production city, but I didnt. I should have settled more cities and cared less about overlap, but I didn't.

I played friendly, and peaceful, but I never meant to. It just happened. I wanted to settle my cities without trouble and when I finished that I was in no position to attack anyone.

Tech pace was furious and I kept up well with incessant trading.

This is my situation at 260 AD:

http://hos.sandnet.se/madswede/civ4 wotm6 500ad.JPG

I should not have founded my 2nd city in the jungle, this was a bad mistake. Many ppl founded it by the horses, much better decision. I never founded a super production city either. Well, I'll learn something from this at least, even if I do not win. I was also way to afraid of city overlap which was silly. I should have founded way more cities on my islands with overlap.

I got Great Lighthouse and Colossus as these were my priorities. Maybe GL was a mistake, I'm not sure.

Comments are welcome...

Ah yes, I see what you mean, so I guess some people could reach him in that way. Doing that you'd have to avoid attacking the first city you came to, as that would leave your troops stranded when Caesar's borders collapse :) (Which would be quite an amusing mistake to make. Well, probably more amusing if someone else makes it :mischief: )

Well, I did this :)
I made peace after capturing this city, and I knew another, long route to Caesar's lands, so I started to ferry troops for the 2nd war all the way around.
By the time my first galley arrived, my own borders poped out and I was able to use the short route again.

So at 500AD, I control two islands although I don't have much production. Cathy's cities have nice commerce but even worse production than my own. I'm building the Heroic Epic and my first great general became an instructor in that city. Its currently a consolodation phase as I build courthouses in Russia and my first berserkers. I'm planning to attack Roosevelt next to get the Pyramids.

What is your strategy when you get the Pryamids ... do you adopt Representation or Police State?

Also, when a religion spread to you did you convert or stay nondenominational?

What is your strategy when you get the Pryamids ... do you adopt Representation or Police State?

Also, when a religion spread to you did you convert or stay nondenominational?

I'm planning a military victory. I want to switch to Police State for the production bonus and WW relief. Representation is a good choice on this map for a space race or diplomatic victory. There are a lot of cities with significant extra food to run specialists. I'm just planning on whipping almost every city for extra production.

I stayed nondenominational until Caesar asked me to switch (around 100BC IIRC). I wanted to keep him happy and trading until I was ready to fight. I was planning to adopt Confucianism after Theology for Theocracy. It had spread into my capital and main production city. (I was able to use Hereditary Rule and Calendar resources to increase the happiness cap in my cities) Buddhism didn't spread to me until later but it wasn't a serious option. Isabella was too backward to bother pleasing so it was a choice of 3 happy neighbours vs 1.

Settled in place after scouting the pigs. Lots of high food/low production sites on the island so it would be a whipping game. I’m glad Gyathaar made it so obvious because I always plan to whip but I rarely do. This time it looks mandatory. I hope to gain some experience and break through my reluctance.

Early Cities:
I thought about the early cities for a long time … was tempted by the far east location with fish, clams and jungle gems but finally decided to stay closer to home and away from the jungle for city two and three. Second city, Uppsala was founded off-island south of the capital with access to fish and could share the pigs in Nidaros. In hindsight it wasn’t a great decision but it worked out OK in the early going. Third city, Haithaba was founded between the mountains with access to clams but had jungle-locked pigs and gems. Didn’t know at the time it would have two iron deposits so that location turned out to be a good one.

Cities four and five came much later as I focused on whipping infrastructure in the first three. I probably overbuilt and should have founded Birka and Bjorgvin much sooner. I also made the mistake of whipping my cities down too small. With the enormous amount of food I should have whipped after “banking” one or two unhappy citizens so I could keep more people working the gold.

City four, Birka was founded on the far east (fish, clams, gems) location and finally just before the 500AD cutoff I founded Bjorgvin in the interior with access to silk, horses and Haithaba’s pigs. It also had access to three grassland hills and fresh water. This would be my military production city and would eventually become a powerhouse spammed with post Chemistry/State Property workshops.

Techs:
3670BC – Mining
3040BC – BW (to adopt Slavery which I actually used this time)
2560 BC – Sailing (for galley to settle second city)
2200 BC – Wheel
1870 BC – Pottery (for granaries I probably didn’t need and cottages which ended up being few)
1540 BC – AH
1390 BC – Mysticism (for monuments to expand early cities)
955 BC – IW (finally a really useful tech)
730 BC - Writing
505 BC - Alphabet (would now tech/trade to HR)
490 BC - Trades: Masonry, Poly, Agriculture, Pristhood
250 BC - Monarchy (Hereditary Rule)
220 BC - Math
55 BC - Currency
40 BC - Trades: Meditation, Monotheism, Archery, CoL
10 BC - Lightbulbed Philosophy with at GS
65 AD - Metal Working and traded for Calendar
140 AD – Civil Service (Bureaucracy)
305AD – Machinery and traded for Drama, Construction and Literature
470 AD - Feudalism
Etc:
Conquest/Domination victory - Decided not to attack Russia with an early rush and focused on teching to macemen/cats to take on Haya first who had built the Great Lighthouse. I could avoid Corporation so it would be a valuable wonder throughout the game. Haya also had the kind of land I wanted (food and grasslands) for two or three good workshop/military cities. Roosevelt with the Pyramids would be next.

Religion - Decided not to adopt any religion (for the first time) and this really helped in the relations department. Izzy was the only one I didn’t get along with but I was in good company.

Economy/Tech – My starting cities were close and had good gold production. I explored early and made a lot of contacts and without religion my relations were all good making for favorable trades. With Hereditary Rule I blew my early cities up to 12-15 population with cheap warriors and had a pretty strong tech pace.

Early Exploration - This paid off as I easily circumnavagated first. For a long time I was much better connected than any other civ and with good relation via no religion it felt like I was getting better trades than usual.

Around 500 AD I had CS and Machinery all to myself and will keep it that way for as long as possible. I’m building macemen, catapults and galleys to pay Haya a visit.

I'm not going to submit the game, since I quit in disgust after making one too many :smoke: moves.

However, without playing the challenger class, I had a hard time catching up with the monarch AIs :eek:.
Probably my 2 workers weren't enough to remove all that jungle :lol:.
I have missed all the wonders, including the colossus although I was running for it.
This never happened to me :confused:, one of those fast techers must have had a GE to rush it (and I didn't have copper!).

I didn't quit at this point, although I felt bad when I saw I was losing the liberalism race too. Only quit later when I made one of those "goto mistakes" : sent my ships to unload troops without care in the fog, and they attacked (!it was a goto order :cry:) stronger enemy ships on the way= 1 army lost . This was too much for me. Power button.

After GOTM14, we have another sea-based map, which I’m growing fonder of. I believe that this game is being harder than the other one, despite being on Monarch. Hopefully, after clearing up all the jungle, things will go smoother. Luckily, no global warming involved in the game’s model, or else Greenpeace would be on my heels.

I settled in place and beelined for BW and Alpha, after noticing that I was able to contact most of the AI early on. In fact, when Alpha came online in 865BC, I had 4 contacts, and the remaining ones showed up not later than 355BC. Btw, I circumnavigated globe in 955BC. Nevertheless, until 500AD, Roosevelt was still the tech leader. Luckily, the WBTYABTA issue hasn’t arisen yet, but I'm worried that it can happen soon. Meanwhile, I've been dead last in score. I hope I can make this change soon. :mischief:

Tech path
Turn 11 (3670 BC) Mining
Turn 29 (3130 BC) Bronze Working
Turn 47 (2590 BC) Animal Husbandry
Turn 65 (2050 BC) Writing
Turn 75 (1750 BC) The Wheel
Turn 87 (1390 BC) Sailing
Turn 109 (865 BC) Alphabet
Turn 110 (850 BC) (trades) Mysticism, Agriculture, Pottery
Turn 117 (745 BC) (trades) Meditation, Polytheism, Masonry
Turn 118 (730 BC) (trades) Priesthood, Monotheism, Archery
Turn 121 (685 BC) Iron Working
Turn 136 (460 BC) Mathematics
Turn 152 (220 BC) (trade) Calendar
Turn 153 (205 BC) Construction
Turn 154 (190 BC) (trade) Literature
Turn 167 (5 AD) Metal Casting
Currency (trade)
Turn 176 (140 AD) (trade) Code of Laws
Turn 181 (215 AD) Machinery
Turn 191 (365 AD) (trade) Monarchy
Turn 194 (410 AD) Civil Service
Music, Theology, Horseback Riding (trades)

Additional city placement
Turn 75 (1750 BC) Uppsala founded (NE of gems)
Turn 105 (925 BC) Haithabu founded (E of pigs, to work horses)
Turn 148 (280 BC) Birka founded (N of gems, +2 seafood)
Turn 168 (20 AD) Bjørgvin founded (coast between 2 silks)
By 500AD, I have no access to iron. My own fault, I took too long to research IW, and a couple turns after I did it, Augustus settled the southern island, denying me access to both sources.
Wonders
I don’t remember a game where I haven’t even tried to get a wonder until 500AD, as was the case here. Without access to any strategic resource, they all seemed too risky to me. I wish HOF mod would keep track of them getting built elsewhere, so this post could be more accurate, but that’s not the case. Anyway, Augustus has SH, Oracle (worthless ones now) and Colossus. Asoka has Great lighthouse. Pyramids is still for grabs, can’t remember about G.Lib.

Diplomatic and Religious environment
Cathy is Hindu, as most of my cities, but I have no state religion. I wouldn’t like to annoy Izzy/Roosevelt (Buddhists) or Capac/Asoka/Augustus (Christians). The world was peaceful until 425AD. Trying to ensure metal supply for my berserkers, I amassed a small attack force (3 cats & 2 elephants – thanks for the ivory, Capac :) ), declared on Cathy and took Cathy’s city built atop of the copper 4 turns later (485AD). I now plan to get reinforcements and conquer her island before she gets longbows. Roosevelt and Izzy hate her too. I shall hurry before they dogpile on her. :lol:

Choosing the path to victory
I’ve been relying on diplo wins lately. Maybe it is the easier way again. By 500AD Roosevelt is 1st in pop. If I can get aligned with the Christian block (and they stay that way)…who knows? With the lack of hammers, conquest or domination seem unlikely to me. Maybe those great general can help there, never tried them. Culture is out of question. Space race could be interesting, if I manage to get State Property soon, to spam workshops on those grassland tiles.

I want to launth a protest. Who ever created this map did not even try to play it. I undestand idea that challenger should be more dificult, but not at that degree. AI teching faster then in typical deity game. It has Banking 300BC. I am sorry, but when I play monarch Gotm I expoct somethng like Emperor dificulty on challenger. That is bejon rediculous.
Idea is to have a bit more challenge, not to have a unvinnable position. In additon trades. AI give only 20% beakers in trade. In short, for 1000 beakers tech AI propoused no more then 200 beakers in exchange. I am sorry, but it is simply not fun. I bgin to think that Idea behind Challenger now is to stop anyone to play it.

I tested the settings.. and didnt really feel that the difference was that big... guess it was more down to random luck.
In hindsight I should perhaps only have dropped the AIs difficulty to Warlords (or perhaps chieftain) - I will certainly try to use warlords difficulty some time in the future.

Atleast you got to experience the 'challenge' part in challenger :)

. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. ..

I settle in place, put research on mining and AI discover Buddism and hinduism the same turn when I only half of way toward mining.

Contender. 5ad. Built five cities on the island. No religions. No wonders. Circumnavigation about 400bc. Last in score. Power is a joke. No enemies yet. By way of a change I decided to head towards currency for the extra trade route. Behind on tech (don't have alphabet, CoL, MC, calendar, construction). All in all, business as usual.

. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. ..

I settle in place, put research on mining and AI discover Buddism and hinduism the same turn when I only half of way toward mining.
I did test.. but the tests could very much have been greatly changed by random luck...

I just did some more tests..

First game Buddism was founded in turn 17, and Hinduism in turn 25..
Second game both Buddism and Hinduism was founded in turn 8..
Third game Buddism was founded in turn 8, Hinduism in turn 9

Only difference was how I was moving the scout, which altered the random seeds... In the first game I did like I did in my tests.. which was putting the scout on autoexplore.. since I knew the map really well already... However I was playing from a different starting save.. so the random seeds would again yield different results (and I didnt write down the dates in the tests)

For some reference, I went though all the submitted games.. buddism was founded in turn 11 for pretty much all the contender games, and hinduism on average around turn 30.. in some games turn 23 or 24, and in some games not before close to turn 50.

However I didnt do extensive testing with these settings.. I only played till around 500BC or so and compared how the AIs was progressing compared to normal settings.. and they seemed to be only a few techs further along than normal... it is quite possible the early boost from this lead to a bigger advantage later into the game thou... which seems to have been the case...

So I dug out some numbers from an xml file.

iResearchPercent: Settler 60, Noble 100, Monarch 115, Deity 130.
I believe this means that the Settler AI needs far fewer beakers for each tech (60% of normal, and barely more than half of the Monarch player -- proportionately worse than Deity human vs. Noble AI).

iCivicUpkeepPercent: Settler 50, Noble 80, Monarch 95, Deity 100.
iAICivicUpkeepPercent: Monarch 90, Deity 60.
If I understand this, these will be multiplied. SettlerAI-MonarchHuman = 0.5*0.9 = 45%. NobleAI-DeityHuman = 0.8*0.6 = 48%, about comparable. City and unit maintenaince costs also look similar.

iAttitudeChange: Settler 2, Noble and above -1.
iTechTradeKnownModifier: Settler -100, Noble and above 0.
I think these mean that the AIs get an automatic +2 diplo relations with each other; they'll trade anything to each other, including monopoly techs; WFYABTA limits for inter-AI trades are modestly higher. I only really noticed that the AIs were doing ridiculous things when I hit Philosophy in 100-something BC and it was already universally known. On Immortal, I sometimes get beat to Philosophy by someone, but it still has good trade value to almost everyone else. So, this was the point I realized I was in trouble. I suspect Gyathaar's tests didn't show how fast it was going to go because he only ran it to 500 BC, and the AIs hadn't yet started mad trading.

There are some big advantages that the AI gets on higher levels that aren't replicated here: starting units, especially free workers, really drive their explosive starts; and the AI gets bonuses to growth and construction, and free upgrades. So the tech pace of this game felt like Deity, but without the early crush as the AIs grab all the land, or Deity-level barbarians to whack you before you even start. If I'd known what I was up against and tried for a cultural victory from the beginning, I think it'd be possible.

peace,
lilnev

Idea is, If I had even remote idea about How it would played technology wize, I would have taken very different aproach and may be get in resonable position, maybe. But even them. I was able to get 2 tech which I was a ble to trade to an other civ. Metalocastin, I was offered Politheism + gold for it and Theology, was offereg archry and gold for it.

It is posible that AI was allready researching it, but I do not think so.
On lover dificulty level trade deals are mach more better for human, so I suspec this 100 is 100% bonus to trade value AI has. So, even if you get Monopoly tech you are not lickly to be able to get any good value out of it.

I played challenger because of the interesting premise and the AI tech pace was certainly deity+ but I'm not complaining. Challenger is supposed to be hard.

I built a fishing boat and worker, researched AH/BW for slavery and built up to 4 cities before trying for Great Lighthouse in capital. I lost that wonder to the AI. I exited the ancient age with Iron Working to unlock the gems and then Metal Casting to (successfully) build the Colossus.

I was running 2 scientists and an engineer in my capital and popped an engineer in 95 AD which I used to build the still open Pyramids and switch to Representation. But the AI was still a huge way ahead. One thing I noticed is if I did get a tech that some AI didn't have, they would trade at only a tiny fraction of the value, considerably worse than what regular deity AIs would normally give. The first tech I could trade was paper, and that only to Isabella, and the best I could get for it was alphabet.

I stayed atheist in the hope the AIs would fight each other. They didn't, but at least they didn't invade me.

Uber, challenger suppous to be hurder, but still comparateble to mainstream game. This is not comparatable at all. In addition, insted of just having additional heal and happiness AI got lots of other bonuses, thich where not declared. If I know befor hand what tech trading situation would be I would have my all plan different. The only to win was to beeline to Iron working and kill one or if fast enogth 2 civs befor they discover Alphavit.
The fact that they freely exchange tech make any plan now imposible.
The fact that they all love each other making stearing trouble imposible.
Isa love some one else with different religion in my game! So, not only AI has deity level reseach bonuses, exchange tech with you for 25% of beakers, trade freely between themself, have free +2(or3?) health happiness. There are probably some other bonuses two, which we do not know about yet.

That is no way comparatable with mainstream game. Even deity game would be easier.

Izzy loved Caesar in my game...they were different religions as well.

I am also trying Challenger. It does feel harder than Deity---Mutineer is right about that. If Gyathaar tested the game and the AIs were only slightly ahead of the normal tech pace at 500 BC, something must have been changed between his test and the actual game.

However, this is no reason for Mutineer to be a complete jerk. The game is way harder than a normal Monarch game, and that's good, because I think Monarch is super boring.

At 5 AD, I'm one turn away from Colossus (it turns out you can get some wonders at this setting because the AIs tech so fast that they consider those wonders too old to be worth building, I guess). I'm also 2 turns from Machinery; unfortunately, everyone except Roosevelt already has it. My ability to get anything useful by tech trading has been minimal. :(

I am beginning to doubt that the game is winnable, but I will probably keep playing for a while. Unfortunately, Huayna Capac is Annoyed with me (Augustus Caesar demanded I switch to Confucianism, and I agreed, probably unwisely), and if he attacks me, that's probably game over---I can't really see how I can defend myself with just warriors. If I had stayed neutral, then cultural win might have been possible.

I did found a city on the hut, next to the iron. I'm surprised everyone didn't do that.

I had one annoying instance of bad luck---my trireme lost to a barb galley, which pillaged my fish. Not nearly as bad as my luck in GOTM15, though.

4000 BC: founded Nidaros in place
3790 BC: Buddhism in a distant land
3760 BC: Hinduism in a distant land
3460 BC: Animal Husbandry
3160 BC: Mining
2860 BC: Judaism in a distant land
2650 BC: Bronze Working
2350 BC: The Wheel
2020 BC: Pottery
1960 BC: Uppsala founded 7E 1N (silk)
1690 BC: Confucianism in a distant land
1570 BC: Haithabu founded 4E 1N (gems)
1480 BC: Sailing
925 BC: Iron Working
865 BC: Birka founded 8E 2S (pigs, 2 horses)
820 BC: Writing
760 BC: My trireme loses to barb galley, near Nidaros
760 BC: Christianity in a distant land
580 BC: Alphabet
550 BC: I'm so far behind, someone gives me Mathematics!
520 BC: Christianity spreads to Haithabu
490 BC: Taoism in a distant land
475 BC: Bjørgvin founded 5E 2S (2 iron, clams)
325 BC: Metal Casting
310 BC: trade for Masonry, Mysticism
265 BC: Jelling founded 12E 1S (gems, clams)
160 BC: Compass
145 BC: trade for Polytheism
130 BC: trade for Priesthood
130 BC: Confucianism spreads to Birka
85 BC: Buddhism spreads to Bjørgvin
5 AD: Roskilde founded 11E 3N (fish, silk)

Isabella demands that I convert to Hinduism, and I do. Two turns of anarchy is worth it for +2 relations (+1 vs -1 for refusing) in the long run.

So your plan is to switch per the demand, then switch back 5 turns later to remove the negative modifiers with other AIs? Do you really think that's worth it?

(btw looking back at the map, it struck me that the tile with the goody hut would've made a cool city site with 2 irons, gems, and tons of food from the seafood and lakes. But of course that only works with hindsight, since most people will probably have already settled round there before they discover iron working.)

I don't understand what you mean. Where else would you settle? It seems an obvious place to put a city, even before the iron is revealed. The only alternative spot would be on the iron itself, and I would count it unlucky if you did that, but I would think that most people would get IW before Sailing.

I'm going to try Challenger. ...
Um, guys? Did anyone playtest these settings? The AIs are going quite a bit faster than Immortal, maybe even faster than Deity. ...

I did try and it was indeed absolutely insane. The AIs founded Islam around 500BC and all had Feudalism at around 300BC. I quit after noticing at 200BC that one of Isabella's cities was size 17.

IMHO, tech pace was considerably faster than on Deity level on these map settings.

...
475 BC: Bjørgvin founded 5E 2S (2 iron, clams)
...

In my game India built a city on the southern island iirc 3 or 4 turns earlier. ;)

If you can win this one, especially by military means, that would be actually quite interesting to see. :)

Judging by initial game development, AI will launch in space probably around 1400-1500AD.

I tested the settings.. and didnt really feel that the difference was that big... guess it was more down to random luck.
In hindsight I should perhaps only have dropped the AIs difficulty to Warlords (or perhaps chieftain) - I will certainly try to use warlords difficulty some time in the future.

Atleast you got to experience the 'challenge' part in challenger :)

Difference was huge and completely unexpected actually developing considerably later in the game around 500BC when it all became so clear.

So, I completely agree with Mutineer in this case.

IMHO, from challenger one can expect a 1-1.5 levels up, not three levels above what the game is. And three levels above Monarch is Deity. Not that many people try to play it as well. And certainly not me any time soon. So, please, be more generous to crazy folks. :)

I posted in the pregame 10 test runs with the contender and challanger settings. Below are first contender then challanger with average then (min/max). Of coarse the faster teching and wonders are only part of the story as the AIs have benefits sooner, and from the discussion, seem to be more friendly and trade more freely with challanger vs contender.

Buddism 25 (13-49) … 15 (8-30)
Hindu 43 (20-69) … 28 (12-39)
Judism 85 (65-105) … 54 (37-69)
Confu 135 (114-162) … 90 (72-105)
Christ 172 (150-197) … 125 (112-147)
Tao 203 (173-244) … 154 (141-180)
Islam 243 (220-265) … 186 (151-202)

Stonehen 106 (75-148) … 156 (67-225+) >225 5x
Oracle 106 (92-132) … 122 (77-157)
Gr Wall 140 (87-195) … 144 (67-225)
Gr Light 161 (137-197) … 157 (114-187)
Pyramids 172 (109-272) … 202 (159-225+) >225 4x
Temp of Arm 155 (129-205) … 152 (115-221)
Parth 196 (138-260) … 201 (159-225+) 5x
Hang Gard 197 (172-216) … 179 (134-220)
Great Lib 215 (201-236) … 162 (131-210)
Colossus 220 (161-239) … 205 (159-225+) >225 6x

Circumnav 251 (220-273) … 190 (177-197)

I posted in the pregame 10 test runs with the contender and challanger settings. Below are first contender then challanger with average then (min/max).

Hmm. Several of the times in my game were faster than your minimums.

Buddhism 7
Hinduism 8
Judaism 38
Confucianism 77
Christianity 115
Taoism 134

Difference was huge and completely unexpected actually developing considerably later in the game around 500BC when it all became so clear.

It was clear to me, earlier than that, that I was in a big hole, research-wise.

I do like not knowing exactly what to expect. I think back to the old days of some of the Civ3 GOTMs, with new resources and hacked-up map features. For me, there's a lot to be said for that approach, over the approach of completely public settings and "test games" where everyone knows exactly what to expect.

From my point of view, challenger setting should be hurder then mainstream, but have opportunity to score higher score then mainstream game. Then they will be played, because all this people who like beating newbies on easy setting will have to choise between easier game but risk falling behind or hurder game and chance to win.

That would make to mach more interesting Gotm.

I also took the challanger route and was unpleasantly surprised at how quick the AI teched. I found in the rare event I was able to get a tradable tech (I beelined alpha--no, then drama), the AI was only willing to give me half price.
So I had to partially research IW to get it in trade for drama. Obviously my lack of experience with the difficulty led to some poor choices--I knew IW was important, I should have self researched it instead of trading for it like I would normally. When I could bulb phil, only one AI didn't have it in around 200BC. The half price (might be 60%--that would be consistent with lilnev's numbers) trading was really the killer.

Not sure if I'll finish this one--only hope is cultural and I'm just miles behind where I was in the inca gotm. I'm not wild about those games--you play a lot of hours and hope you don't get swatted like a flea by the AI.

That said, I like the concept of raising the AI difficulty--this was just too tough (for me).

I do like not knowing exactly what to expect.
I agree, however, I think that works better if the overall level ends up being lower so you have a chance to recover from the inevitable errors that causes.

From my point of view, challenger setting should be hurder then mainstream, but have opportunity to score higher score then mainstream game.

Well, I don't think this has ever been the case, nor should it be. The challenger option is for people like me, who want a harder game and don't particularly care about their score.

I will concede that perhaps this one is too hard. I agree with ungy---I'm not sure I'm motivated to finish. But, I still think it's good to have variety. A standard Monarch-plus-half-level wouldn't have been interesting enough for me to even start.

Challenger games should be comparable to contender games. If you want a deity game you can just play it on your own. I do prefer the harder GOTMs, but the competition is more important for me. I am perfectly fine with hard challenger penatlies, for example I played GOTM-15 without the free worker, which is quite a lot. But this time I decided its a bit too hard, so I took contender. Looks like it was the right decision.

If you want a deity game you can just play it on your own.

But this misses the whole point. If I play a deity game on my own, no one else is playing that game, and I can't compare or share experiences with them. If I play a challenger GOTM, then I can compare my game, and discuss it, with all of the other challenger players (as we're doing here). So it's much different---and better.

Anyway, as I said, I much prefer this to a monarch-plus-a-bit GOTM that I wouldn't even bother to open. That's just my one vote.

But if its uncomparable to contender, then its effectively a different game. Its the same as running two different GOTMs in parallel. It has been suggested before and perhaps it does makes some sense.

But if its uncomparable to contender, then its effectively a different game

I think that's true, and it's always been true (even going back to Civ3 days). Note that in Mutineer's preferred protocol where Challenger offers better score potential than Contender, that's just as true. There are still a lot of advantages of running one GOTM as opposed to two (or three) completely separate ones. The pre-game discussion can basically be shared by all. The map, the exploration process, the interactions with neighbors, are all likely to be similar. So there's still a lot of shared experience.

(btw looking back at the map, it struck me that the tile with the goody hut would've made a cool city site with 2 irons, gems, and tons of food from the seafood and lakes. But of course that only works with hindsight, since most people will probably have already settled round there before they discover iron working.)


I don't understand what you mean. Where else would you settle? It seems an obvious place to put a city, even before the iron is revealed. The only alternative spot would be on the iron itself, and I would count it unlucky if you did that, but I would think that most people would get IW before Sailing.

Don't worry, that was just me being dim. I didn't register that even without the iron, that would've made a very good spot for a city. Shame, that might've disadvantaged my game somewhat that I hadn't noticed that spot.

(I got sailing before IW btw, because I was hugely prioritizing trading posts and I was hoping to get IW as an alphabet-trade).

(I got sailing before IW btw, because I was hugely prioritizing trading posts and I was hoping to get IW as an alphabet-trade).

Actually, I learned Sailing before IW, also. Ignore that part of my posting.

I did as well, I actually got IW in a trade for Alpha...unfortunately, I assumed that I would be able to get access to iron simply be having it mined and roaded inside my culture boundaries, alas, that was not the case...leading me to require a second city on the second iron :(

That's what I thought, but it turned out that although I could work it for some reason it didn't count as my having the resource. Those mountains prevented me from connecting it by road to the city, and it seems maybe being able to take a resource along sea-coast inside your borders comes before being able to take a resource along lake-shore inside your borders -- the sea-cost side of the iron was outside the border, but the lake-shore was inside. I thought it would count as accessbile via the lake shore, but apparently not.

In any case, I ended up founding a city on top of the second iron on the small island to the south to take the nearby crabs, and definitely provide the iron resource.


I too discovered the same thing when I was practicing with Celt WOTM in preparation for WOTM5. I built a city across the coast to work the Iron but even after mining and roading, it was not connected. I later found out you need a city on the isolated land to connect any resources. Either case I never considered that spot by the hut since I already had a city NE of the Gem and did not want to share 3 tiles.

Either case I never considered that spot by the hut since I already had a city NE of the Gem and did not want to share 3 tiles.

Why not???

Why not???

Indeed, why not? I think the missing piece for a lot of us, myself included, is that we failed to visualize the lake tiles as 3f tiles when there is a lighthouse in a city on the south sea coast.

Thanks for the lesson, DaviddesJ. :)

Why not???

Good question. Actually it was 6 tiles, but from what I have been reading, it seems best to have just a handfull of cities with little overlap and as many population as possible. So since I was not focused on any type of Victory at the begining (even now for that matter), I wanted to maximize my workable tiles and get the economy going. The 3F+3C tiles are my bonus food tiles for my Gem City and I am working both iron tiles on my island city. The biggest regret is that I do not have any bonus food for the iron City.

I'd probably put a city there even if both iron resources were deleted, just to work the clams. I suppose I might put it on the 3-square island instead, in that case. Overlap is not really bad. In the early and middle game, your cities aren't big enough to work all of the tiles anyway, and in the late game, you can always choose the best cities to grow and just leave the "extra" cities relatively small.

Another reason I liked putting a city next to the iron is that it creates the equivalent of the Panama canal, through the middle of the island. Makes it easier to move ships around, although, admittedly, it's not a big deal.

After playing WOTM 3 several times for practice and not submitting the Zulu game because crashing about dozen times due to extremely lucky spread of Hinduism to all but the Koreans, I think I am finally ready for this game. Oh yeah... not founding early religions this time.

The Lofty Plan: Get Machinery from the Oracle, build the Pyramids, use the GE to build the Great Library and light bulb to Astro and win....somehow....domination?....Diplomatic?.....S pace Race??...Who knows. Oh yeah forgot circumnavigation. OB with all and trade freely.

The Execution: Settled on the spot build a WB, Worker, Warrior, Settler, Warrior and the Oracle....well tried to build the Oracle. Learned mining, Ah, BW, The Wheel, IW and others. Priesthood was in there somewhere. Well, The Oracle adventure lasted may be 3 turns when someone built it.:cry: Well the Pyramids will be available in a few turns. So lets get another settler out to claim the second gem; the first settler had claimed the gem site nearby and using two cottages and sharing a mine with the capital. When the Pyramids were available started building it. Every time the Cap go into unhappiness, we would rush a building or a unit that require two pop and rush to get extra hammers for the Mids. When it was possible the Pyramids were rushed on the turn before 100 BC :D and had the first and only crash so far. (I keep on forgetting to turn graphic quality to medium and the peuter would ofter crash when the Wonder movie starts.)

At 500 AD, Ragnar is at the bottom of the scoreboard, running research at 100% with 5 good cities and almost caught up with all other cives in Technologies. We are up at least one tech on all others at 1000 AD. We did build the Great Library and about to get Astro for free via Liberalism. Meanwhile we were investigating all the cities with just 2 boats the Romans circumnavigated the map.:mad: Playing Civ4 at 2AM can do things like this.:lol:

The Future: Not decided yet. I do have a personal issue with Huayna for beating me to the Stars in GOTM14 and he keep going back and forth between pleased to cautious all the time. But my best bets are to go get the American Lands since they have the Colossus and GLH. They are so far away. But some thing need to happen. What???? Will I be able to finish by submittal time?:eek:

Cleaned up Turnlog:
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Turn 0 (4000 BC)
Nidaros founded
Research begun: Mining

Turn 11 (3670 BC)
Tech learned: Mining
Buddhism founded in a distant land

Turn 12 (3640 BC)
Research begun: Animal Husbandry

Turn 21 (3370 BC)
Nidaros finishes: Work Boat

Turn 25 (3250 BC)
Scout promoted: Woodsman I

Turn 29 (3130 BC)
Tech learned: Animal Husbandry

Turn 30 (3100 BC)
Research begun: Bronze Working

Turn 34 (2980 BC)
Nidaros finishes: Worker

Turn 35 (2950 BC)
Nidaros begins: Work Boat

Turn 47 (2590 BC)
Hinduism founded in a distant land

Turn 48 (2560 BC)
Tech learned: Bronze Working

Turn 49 (2530 BC)
Research begun: Mysticism

Turn 51 (2470 BC)
Nidaros finishes: Work Boat

Turn 52 (2440 BC)
Nidaros begins: Settler

Turn 58 (2260 BC)
Judaism founded in a distant land

Turn 59 (2230 BC)
Tech learned: Mysticism
Scout loses to: Barbarian Warrior (1.20/2)

Turn 60 (2200 BC)
Research begun: Meditation
Research begun: Priesthood

Turn 62 (2140 BC)
Nidaros finishes: Settler

Turn 63 (2110 BC)
Nidaros begins: Warrior

Turn 64 (2080 BC)
Contact made: Incan Empire
Nidaros finishes: Warrior

Turn 65 (2050 BC)
Nidaros begins: Settler

Turn 67 (1990 BC)
Uppsala founded
Uppsala begins: Barracks

Turn 70 (1900 BC)
Nidaros begins: Warrior

Turn 71 (1870 BC)
Tech learned: Meditation

Turn 72 (1840 BC)
Nidaros finishes: Warrior

Turn 77 (1690 BC)
Nidaros finishes: Settler

Turn 78 (1660 BC)
Nidaros begins: Warrior

Turn 79 (1630 BC)
Tech learned: Priesthood
Nidaros finishes: Warrior

Turn 80 (1600 BC)
Research begun: Masonry
Nidaros begins: The Oracle

Turn 87 (1390 BC)
Tech learned: Masonry
Warrior defeats (0.80/2): Barbarian Warrior

Turn 88 (1360 BC)
Research begun: The Wheel
Research begun: Pottery

Turn 89 (1330 BC)
Nidaros can not continue: The Oracle
Nidaros begins: The Pyramids

Turn 91 (1270 BC)
Haithabu founded
Haithabu begins: Monument
Nidaros grows: 5 and riots

Turn 93 (1210 BC)
Nidaros switch to: BarracksRush with 2 pop
Nidaros finishes: Barracks

Turn 94 (1180 BC)
Tech learned: The Wheel

Turn 101 (985 BC)
Tech learned: Pottery

Turn 102 (970 BC)
Research begun: Iron Working

Turn 104 (940 BC)
Uppsala finishes: Barracks

Turn 105 (925 BC)
Uppsala begins: Worker

Turn 108 (880 BC)
Haithabu finishes: Monument

Turn 109 (865 BC)
Haithabu begins: Granary

Turn 117 (745 BC)
Contact made: Russian Empire Been Watching this border for a while to see who.

Turn 122 (670 BC)
Nidaros begins: Granary Nidaros is about to grow so we will rush a building.

Turn 123 (655 BC)
Nidaros grows: 4
Nidaros finishes: Granary 2 Pop rush.

Turn 124 (640 BC)
Tech learned: Iron Working See two Iron sources. We need to get a city on the Island. So we need a Galley.
Uppsala finishes: Worker

Turn 125 (625 BC)
Research begun: Sailing
Uppsala begins: Warrior

Turn 135 (475 BC)
Tech learned: Sailing

Turn 136 (460 BC)
Research begun: Writing

Turn 138 (430 BC)
Uppsala finishes: Warrior

Turn 139 (415 BC)
Uppsala begins: Trading Post

Turn 141 (385 BC)
Tech learned: Writing

Turn 142 (370 BC)
Research begun: Mathematics
Nidaros begins: Galley

Turn 145 (325 BC)
Nidaros finishes: Galley

Turn 146 (310 BC)
Confucianism founded in a distant land

Turn 148 (280 BC)
Uppsala grows: 3
Haithabu finishes: Granary

Turn 149 (265 BC)
Haithabu begins: Worker

Turn 150 (250 BC)
Uppsala begins: Settler

Turn 156 (160 BC)
Tech learned: Horseback Riding Thank You Sid.
Tribal village results: technology
Haithabu finishes: Worker

Turn 157 (145 BC)
Haithabu begins: Trading Post
Tech learned: Mathematics

Turn 158 (130 BC)
Research begun: Currency
Tribal village results: map There is a reddish bourder to the south

Turn 159 (115 BC)
Nidaros finishes: The Pyramids Finally we can rush the Pyramids take no chance.

Turn 160 (100 BC) The game crashed due to insufficient memory. Crap.
----------------------------New entries----------------------------
Turn 160 (100 BC) Load the Auto save. No moves were done before crash due to Wonder VIdeo.
Nidaros begins: Settler

Turn 161 (85 BC)
Haithabu finishes: Trading Post

Turn 162 (70 BC)
Haithabu begins: Barracks

Turn 165 (25 BC)
Christianity founded in a distant land

Turn 170 (50 AD)
Haithabu finishes: Barracks

Turn 171 (65 AD)
Haithabu begins: Library
Haithabu grows: 4

Turn 173 (95 AD)
Nidaros finishes: Settler

Turn 174 (110 AD)
Nidaros begins: Trading Post

Turn 175 (125 AD)
Uppsala finishes: Settler

Turn 176 (140 AD)
Birka founded to claim both iron tiles. I chopped the forest on the tile before settling since this is a very low production island. Got 14 hammers at Nidaros.
Birka begins: Trading Post

Turn 180 (200 AD)
Bjørgvin founded To claim both horses and pig.
Bjørgvin begins: Trading Post

Turn 181 (215 AD)
Tech learned: Currency

Turn 182 (230 AD)
Research begun: Alphabet

Turn 183 (245 AD)
Haithabu finishes: Library

Turn 184 (260 AD)
Haithabu begins: Axeman

Turn 186 (290 AD)
Nidaros finishes: Trading Post

Turn 187 (305 AD)
Nidaros begins: Library
Uppsala begins: Settler
Contact made: Roman Empire

Turn 190 (350 AD)
Tech learned: Alphabet Time to trade and catch up....almost.
Nidaros finishes: Library

Turn 191 (365 AD) A lot of Trading this turn
Research begun: Literature
Nidaros begins: Market
Tech learned: Polytheism
Tech learned: Agriculture
Tech learned: Archery
Tech learned: Monarchy

Turn 192 (380 AD)
Contact made: Indian Empire

Turn 194 (410 AD)
Tech learned: Literature

Turn 195 (425 AD)
Research begun: Feudalism

Turn 196 (440 AD)
Birka finishes: Trading Post

Turn 197 (455 AD)
Birka begins: Granary

Turn 199 (485 AD)
Uppsala finishes: Trading Post
Haithabu finishes: Axeman

Turn 200 (500 AD)
Haithabu begins: Work Boat

I'd probably put a city there even if both iron resources were deleted, just to work the clams. I suppose I might put it on the 3-square island instead, in that case. Overlap is not really bad. In the early and middle game, your cities aren't big enough to work all of the tiles anyway, and in the late game, you can always choose the best cities to grow and just leave the "extra" cities relatively small.

Another reason I liked putting a city next to the iron is that it creates the equivalent of the Panama canal, through the middle of the island. Makes it easier to move ships around, although, admittedly, it's not a big deal.

I wished I put a city on the Horse Island too. Wait, I still can. I may just do that if I do not go annexing another large island.;)....Actually that may still be very helpful even during annexing process. Thanks.:goodjob:

When it was possible the Pyramids were rushed on the turn before 100 BC :D and had the first and only crash so far. (I keep on forgetting to turn graphic quality to medium and the peuter would ofter crash when the Wonder movie starts.)


You can turn off the movies entirely in the options. I'd forgotten they even have Wonder movies.