Since I love to make new threads...

I need to load SMAC up again soon, but off the top of my head the parameters that could be affected by SE are:

1) ECONOMY
2) EFFICIENCY
3) SUPPORT
4) MORALE
5) POLICE
6) GROWTH
7) PLANET
8) PROBE
9) INDUSTRY
10) RESEARCH

With CivIV civics there is a never ending list of things that get changed, including:

commerce
research
culture
happiness
health
war weariness
trade routes
ect

The challenge will be to balance out each SE entry so that they aren't too good, but can also be balanced via another entry in another column.

Are we in agreement about 5 columns or do we need more?

I'm going to reserve a post for each colum so we can effectively balance them since I agree with Rubin that this is a very important part of the mod.

reserved for column1, Politics?

reserved for column2, Economics?

reserved for column3, Values

reserved for column4, Future Society

and column5, Civcs or extra?

Haha, woodelf, I think it may be a little too early to decide on these detail, but... oh well, here we go:

SMAC/X operates with 10 parameters:

1) ECONOMY
2) EFFICIENCY
3) SUPPORT
4) MORALE
5) POLICE
6) GROWTH
7) PLANET
8) PROBE
9) INDUSTRY
10) RESEARCH

These parameters are reflected in both the Social Engineering table and each faction's traits and is a very important part of gameplay and strategic approach.

In Social Engineering the parameter values are spread out in groups of 3 or 4 parameters in a 4x4 grid: Politics, Economics, Values, and Future Society; each with 4 choices.

Each faction is unique in that each has a different preset set of parameter values.

For a Civ-styled mod I think GROWTH and SUPPORT are parameters that conflict with gameplay. However, I have a strong feeling that someone here other than me already has a detailed suggestion on what kind of parameters we need and how it should affect gameplay. Let's see... ;)

We have the option to have the values change game mechanics in the same way that we adjust research and culture in Civ4 (percentages); but we can also allow for SMAC/X like adjustments (non-percentages, see spoiler).
#SOCMORALE
-4, -3 Morale; + modifiers halved
-3, -2 Morale; + modifiers halved
-2, -1 Morale; + modifiers halved
-1, -1 Morale
0, Normal Morale
1, +1 Morale
2, +1 Morale (+2 on defense)
3, +2 Morale! (+3 on defense)
4, +3 Morale!!
Note on Civ4 options:

With just 7 factions (determined by at set of parameter values) we are able to add several new leaders with unique traits (as seen in Civ4, NOT parameter values). This would allow for "clone" factions and making it much easier to have a larger number of leaders to play (huge 18 player games, for example).

In combination with the Social Engineering we may choose to add a single "civics" column that does not affect any of these preset parameters. This need may arise if we absolutely must have the option to change some of the parameter independent mechanics.

It might be too early, but I find it hard sitting around and doing nada. I need to find something to contribute so I'm trying to pick areas where we need some XML work down just to be able to test out the mod.

A 4x4 grid with a "Civics" column at the end sounds like a good starting place. I've got some stuff to do, but I'll be thinking about this.

I would advocate a 5x5 civics grid plus resulting SE column displaying results of civics combinations and traits. Each civics will provide bonus/malus toward one or more categories. In addition, we can give to civic particular advantages not reflected in the SE column.

I would advocate a 5x5 civics grid plus resulting SE column displaying results of civics combinations and traits. Each civics will provide bonus/malus toward one or more categories. In addition, we can give to civic particular advantages not reflected in the SE column.

Are you talking about "civics" (as in parameter independent choices) or "social engineering"?

If you are talking about "civics" I think we should decide on which system to use before discussing any kind of content (this includes a hybrid system or something entirely different).

If you are talking about "Social Engineering" what is your reasoning behind the 5x5 grid?

English is so subtle, I'm French you know ... and it's heavy handicap toward languages.
I'm considering that Wealth, Democratic or Eudaimonic are civics ( it is translated "doctrines" in french ) and each civics affects some of the ten parameters of Social Engineering . If I'm wrong with the terms, I will amend myself and go along with the majority.
I'm asking for 5x5 because of storylines I plan to bring in the future. It will be helpfull inn that matter. And I didn't tell anything about how it should work.

snipperrabbit!!, I am sorry if my wording came out harsh.

Regarding the 5x5 grid, I suggest--if possible--we code the 4x4 grid (or whatever we decide upon) to allow for future additions (modding).

A "result" or "total" column is a good idea.

I've read differences you explained in another thread and my position is SE with a little bit of civics.

SMAC/X like adjustments work for me, as well as total column. I think that would be a neat addition. Can it be done? Can we use the civics screen to do a SE/civics hybrid?

I'm updating the first post with Rubin's correct categories from SMAC/X.

I finally have had a light bulb moment about SE's, maybe. I think we're definitely going to have to do some sort of hybrid with civics and them. I'm in the process of trying to find CivIV fields to correspond to the 10 SMAC/X SE categories. There are also going to be some unused CivIV fields that I feel need to be used which we'll have to discuss. These hybrids will also tie into new traits that we'll have to formulate to describe each faction accurately. I think this system will do a super job!

I finally have had a light bulb moment about SE's, maybe. I think we're definitely going to have to do some sort of hybrid with civics and them. I'm in the process of trying to find CivIV fields to correspond to the 10 SMAC/X SE categories. There are also going to be some unused CivIV fields that I feel need to be used which we'll have to discuss. These hybrids will also tie into new traits that we'll have to formulate to describe each faction accurately. I think this system will do a super job!

Oh! I am looking forward to seeing what you come up with!

Oh! I am looking forward to seeing what you come up with!

Heh, so long as I don't succeed in pissing off both the pure civics and pure SE folks!!! :p

Heh, so long as I don't succeed in pissing off both the pure civics and pure SE folks!!! :p

::gets his torch and pitchfork ready::

When can we expect the results of your "light bulb moment", woodelf?

It's dimming...

There are a lot of hurdles to making civics work like SE as I'm finding. The biggest is whether or not a "total" column can be implemented. Without that the effects of each choice will not be added together for one big change, but will be a collection of individual changes. This isn't a deal breaker, but it won't be SMAC-like really. Also, there are the 10 values that can be changed in SMAC/X, but in CivIV there must be 50 to play with. They aren't all applicable to a direct conversion to SMAC/X either and some are too good to be left out IMO as well. I'll list the 10 SMAC/X values that Rubin found for me and then what I'm tentatively thinking about using from CivIV after a brief dinner break.

Here are the 10 SMAC/X SE Social Factors and what I think can be used as a CivIV substitute potentially. A primary problem is negative values and a SMAC/X like table for the total column. Our baseline may be higher so that zero is as low as you can go on some factors.


Economy - A combination of +/- :gold:/base or tile, plus additional free trade routes as this value reaches maximum.

Efficiency - This is a tough one. My initial thought was maintenance, but that may not be enough. There is also :) which directly affects efficiency if the value goes negative and you lose productive workers.

Support - Free units.

Morale - Either xp or trying to see if WHFB got their morale system working.

Police - +:)/military unit and +/- % growth of military units.

Growth - Most likely just a :health: bonus.

Planet - If we don't have xenofungus and mindworms this one will be a bit different. We can +/- :food:/farm or have a :) with forests and jungle tied in somehow.

Probe - Using specialists or GPP? No idea until infiltration is figured out.

Industry - Tied to industrial trait and also +1 :hammers:/tile already producing 3 or more. Sort of like Financial trait.

Research - Another easy one. Thankfully.


This leaves some good CivIV values unused:

war weariness
culture - although if tied to an Energy Grid it would become very useful
free specialists
great people

And everything that gets used in SE needs to be also included in Leader traits so we can balance things out if/when we get a table along with a total column.

Excellent, woodelf! This looks like something we can expand upon.

War weariness could be tied to police rating; and planet rating and health might work well together (with or without native life).

I'd like to address Growth:
We could have growth becoming a +% bonus to food output (the growth bar) in bases. The scale could range from -100% to +100%.

The SMAC/X rules look like this:
#SOCGROWTH
-3, NEAR-ZERO POPULATION GROWTH
-2, -20% growth rate
-1, -10% growth rate
0, Normal growth rate
1, +10% growth rate
2, +20% growth rate
3, +30% growth rate
4, +40% growth rate
5, +50% growth rate!
6, POPULATION BOOM!!
I think Growth in this sense may be a very tricky issue and may be gamebreaking if not carefully balanced. The city (base) growth balancing in Civ4 is different from SMAC/X and I would prefer the Civ4 balance that helps preventing ICS. Growth in Civ4 probably plays a lesser role than growth in SMAC/X.

My main concern is what kind of impact this would have on gameplay. I can think of it being entirely insignificant or terribly powerful. I don't know.

I also think that, if using this model, we cannot have growth assigned a health factor. With +100% growth bases could grow very fast and become very big. Perhaps efficiency or planet rating should affect health, so that growth alone wouldn't be the sole factor of fast growth and huge bases.

I find it diffuclt to evaluate if this is a viable model, but I would be very interested in trying it out.

Thanks Rubin. The table of -4 to +4 is going to be critical to a lot of the factors. Some don't need it as much, but Growth definitely does. If you could use the factor total to change the amount of food needed to increase the city size that would be a good way to have growth be important. Lowering food/tile isn't useful since there aren't enough incremental steps.

Thanks Rubin. The table of -4 to +4 is going to be critical to a lot of the factors. Some don't need it as much, but Growth definitely does. If you could use the factor total to change the amount of food needed to increase the city size that would be a good way to have growth be important. Lowering food/tile isn't useful since there aren't enough incremental steps.

I don't know what kind of range of the values is desirable. It could be -10 to +10; -3 to +6; -4 to +4. However, we need consider end game scenarios where you may be able to tweak the values into definite maximums. If we can achieve a +13 Growth through SE, faction and leader traits, wonders, resources, etc. then I think the range should allow for that.

I agree that the value should not affect tile output. You can add a +% bonus to hammers (for example via an Ironworks) in Civ4 that does not affect tile output. Perhaps something similar could be done to food? If we can adjust the amount of food needed to grow that would probably be the best approach (to the player, at least).

Some additional random comments:

1) It makes sense to have Economy affect trade routes. It could be the number of trade routes or a passive +% modifier to existing trade routes. In SMAC/X economy was "raw commerce" affecting both income and research.

Here are the (wrong) rules from SMAC/X:
#SOCECONOMY
-3, -2 energy each base
-2, -1 energy each base
-1, -1 energy at HQ base
0, Standard energy rates
1, +1 energy each base
2, +1 energy each square!
3, +1 energy each square; +1 commerce rating!!
4, +1 energy/sq; +2 energy/base; +2 commerce!!!
5, +1 energy/sq; +4 energy/base; +3 commerce!!!!
Based on this, perhaps Economy could affect commerce in +% steps (10% perhaps). For higher values the +% bonus per step should probably be reduced (5%, perhaps) and instead be augmented by some trade route boost. I have a feeling that if "commerce" is boosted by more than +50% it will cause severe balancing issues.

The obvious alternative of having Economy affect gold doesn't seem too interesting because I think we have other SE parameters that could indrectly affect gold.

2) Support could be directly affecting how much you are required to spend on maintaining your military and perhaps "special units" (workers, spies, etc.). This is an indirect gold modifier.

Here are the SMAC/X rules:
#SOCSUPPORT
-4, Each unit costs 2 to support; no free minerals for new base.
-3, Each unit costs 1 to support; no free minerals for new base.
-2, Support 1 unit free per base; no free minerals for new base.
-1, Support 1 unit free per base
0, Support 2 units free per base
1, Support 3 units free per base
2, Support 4 units free per base!
3, Support 4 units OR up to base size for free!!
Again, I'd like to try a +% approach. I may range from +100%/-100% to +50%/-50%. I don't know.

3) Based on my earlier comments on the need for having military units stationed "permanently" in a city I think Police may be a candidate for fixing the problems with a non-unit driven police mechanism (I am disregarding any kind of "police" buildings or immobile defenses). Police rating directly affects happiness (replacing the happiness/military unit system) but I think there should be a cost assigned to Police rating, making it a direct (or perhaps indirec if there are dependencies, e.g. specific building requirements) gold modifier. I am thinking in the line of "maintaining a huge police force costs a lot of gold".

I don't think the happiness factor can be %-driven, but the costs could be. Of course, it only makes sense to assign a cost to values above 0. (Perhaps a 1-4% cost per step.)

Here are the SMAC/X rules:
#SOCPOLICE
-5, Two extra drones for each military unit away from territory
-4, Extra drone for each military unit away from territory
-3, Extra drone if more than one military unit away from territory
-2, Cannot use military units as police. No nerve stapling.
-1, One police unit allowed. No nerve stapling.
0, Can use one military unit as police
1, Can use up to 2 military units as police
2, Can use up to 3 military units as police!
3, 3 units as police. Police effect doubled!!
I think its possible to make Police rating an innovative, fun and very interesting concept.

This is all good stuff Rubin, but it really depends on whether or not we can get a total column and create 10 new civics variables to be tabulated into that column. Since I don't program a lick I have no idea.

This is all good stuff Rubin, but it really depends on whether or not we can get a total column and create 10 new civics variables to be tabulated into that column. Since I don't program a lick I have no idea.

I see no reason why not.

I see no reason why not.

Since I'm post stalking...

So you can create 10 new factors and then allow us to manipulate them with civics? From there we can combine the values with leader traits and come up with an overall SE set of values for the faction.

What do you need from us to accomplish this? Even though it might be a few versions down the road... :)

Since I'm post stalking...

So you can create 10 new factors and then allow us to manipulate them with civics? From there we can combine the values with leader traits and come up with an overall SE set of values for the faction.

What do you need from us to accomplish this? Even though it might be a few versions down the road... :)

Well, I would need the almost near-finalized version of how the system works. I understand that there would be multiple different factors, but how would the factors be changed? If you could change them in any way you wanted, say with a base amount and you could just add or subtract from any as you please, then this could all be done with the existing setup. Each category gets it's own Civic option. Say you have 21 different values (-10 to 10). Each Category would get 21 Civics on it. Rather than having a button for all the Civics from -10 to 10, there would be some other mechanic to set which one you use. The screen would change to fit this idea.

However, if it will be like SMAC, where the categories can only be changed by certain social engineering models, then I will probably make two new classes (and thus, two new XML files) that are similar to the Civics files, only all they do is say what values get +X and -X.

As for leaderheads or factions, it's very simple to add tags if tags are not already available to be able to describe this new system.

Gerikes, would it work if we did all the details on 2-4 SE parameters (including the effects of values), implemented these for testing and then later add the remaining SE parameters?

I think Rubin and I are in agreement on how we want this to work, but he's better at putting it into words than I am. ;)

I'll pick Morale as an example to see if I can put it into words...

A few of the factions will have Morale modifiers in their traits, which we'll need to add in. If the Spartans are played they might start at +2 Morale. Depending on a few SE (civic) choices they could gain an additional +3 Morale leading to a total of +5 (duh!!!:)). We would then have a chart that says +5 Morale (from the total column) yields +8 xp to each new unit created in any Spartan base! A best case scenario, but that's what I'm thinking of. Of course, the total column will also have some serious negatives for them now so Research might be -3 total which would mean -30% research in all bases.

Basically I was thinking that each of the 10 bolded factors listed above would be the new factor that we would control in civics and leader traits. By adding them together we get SE. Rubin, is this about right?

Gerikes, would it work if we did all the details on 2-4 SE parameters (including the effects of values), implemented these for testing and then later add the remaining SE parameters?

Good thinking Rubin! Keep me in check as I get carried away.

We can pick the easiest ones...

Morale
Research
and 2 others. ;)

woodelf, I think you are correct. The issue you perhaps is missing is the option for non-SE specific factors. That is, factors that are not considered in the SE system. Non-SE factors could be Great People modifiers, Specialist modifiers and something like U.N. vote modifiers, naval movement modifiers, etc.

The "civics" screen should present a fixed set of SE changes (perhaps 16 as seen in SMAC/X) that the player can choose from. Each option/change may affect several SE values; the exact value changes in the options are preset and cannot be changed by the player in any way.

Edit: woodelf, morale would not be an easy pick because this is one of the aspects of the mod that we are currently unable to agree upon. I would say Economy, Growth, Support and Research are the easier ones.

woodelf, I think you are correct. The issue you perhaps is missing is the option for non-SE specific factors. That is, factors that are not considered in the SE system. Non-SE factors could be Great People modifiers, Specialist modifiers and something like U.N. vote modifiers, naval movement modifiers, etc.

How can we deal with them? Linking Probes and GPP still sounds cool to me.

The "civics" screen should present a fixed set of SE changes (perhaps 16 as seen in SMAC/X) that the player can choose from. Each option/change may affect several SE values; the exact value changes in the options are preset and cannot be changed by the player in any way.

Cool, that sounds awesome.

Edit: woodelf, morale would not be an easy pick because this is one of the aspects of the mod that we are currently unable to agree upon. I would say Economy, Growth, Support and Research are the easier ones.

Lord Olleus started a morale script with the WHFB mod that Ploep said Gerikes could take a look at if he wanted.

woodelf, the non-SE modifiers could be added as a seperate column in the "civics" screen. Even with the SE code I think the "civics" mechanics are still there and can be added as supplement to SE settings. Planetfall's "civics" system would be "true Social Engineering with a touch of Civics".

The disagreement on morale is related to the promotion system (unless Gerikes wants to include BOTH morale AND promotions via XP).

A non-SE column is perfect, I forgot about that.

Promotions via xp would help make morale easier, but that's not important right now I guess.

I can't remember everything that the morale stuff did, but I'll check that out later tonight. I would be worried about using it, however, as the WH mod seemed to have a bunch of bugs in it. Also, I'm not sure if their Warlords version has the latest in it, because if it does I wouldn't be able to test it as is.

I would be in favor of a hybrid solution, where morale and promotions both exist. The question I guess would be what is morale? Earlier, it was just a strength boost on level up, will it have new characteristics similar to WH?

I'm all for changing some of the factors if they don't exactly fit into the CivIV engine. Straight XP gains or a free promotion based on Morale value or a new factor name works for me as well. I don't recall morale in WHFB doing much just yet and it was for Warlords, come to think of it... :(

I'm all for changing some of the factors if they don't exactly fit into the CivIV engine. Straight XP gains or a free promotion based on Morale value or a new factor name works for me as well. I don't recall morale in WHFB doing much just yet and it was for Warlords, come to think of it... :(

Well, if someone wants to start a new thread on it, and get together some ideas, I could do it from scratch.

Wasn't morale in SMAC/X more of a modifier used in calculating combat odds? It didn't cause units to flee, did it? Maybe we could find a way to have a bonus calculated into the unit's pow based on their morale? So high morale get's a 1.5x pow, while a low morale get's 0.5x pow. Make sense? Of course, values between 0.5 and 1.5 also would be used.

Just an idea that popped into my head this morning...

Perhaps after having police up to a certain degree, such as +3, you gain a percentage chance that self-targeted atrocities (such as Nerve Stapling) go unnoticed by the outside world. If you commit a self-targeted atrocity and it doesn't get revealed, to the outside world, it never happened (no diplomatic consequences like sanctions).

However, the problem could still be brought to light. Perhaps once the police rating drops below a certain point. Or, through a combination of a very successful probe team mission (and high infiltration at a base) an enemy faction can learn of the atrocity, and either reveal it to the U.N. for the typical U.N. response (plus some more for trying to cover it up), or blackmail the leader with it (A "Data on Some Base Nerve Stapling Blackmail" option would appear on the trade screen).

I like that idea. Maybe once a certain tech level is approached as well these things are less likely to go as unnoticed? I like the potential for blackmail...

Back to post 40 or the dreaded last post on the previous page...

I think this will seriously work for the Morale factor in SE.

The factor values could look like this:

-4 you multiple pow by 0.8
-3 by 0.85
-2 by 0.90
-1 by 0.95
0
+1 by 1.05
+2 by 1.10
+3 by 1.15
+4 by 1.20

It might not be enough, but an example would be two laser infantry going at it with no other bonuses involved. A super low morale (-4) would be fighting at a pow of 3.2 while the tope morale (+4) would have a pow of 4.8. Morale would certainly matter. :)

Onto the Planet factor.

I think we're in agreement that we're having a fungus type of terrain and eventually native lifeforms, potentially mindworms. One of the next steps is trying to tie in SE and some values that become influenced by the faction's Planet rating.

Possible effects:

Worker times increased/decreased for clearing or planting fungus
Nutrient, energy bonus increased/decreased per tile
The ability of cultural borders to keep fungus out
Capturing native lifeforms with bonus based on rating
Fighting native lifeforms with bonus based on rating
Trading with natives? Only possible at high rating
Peace with natives? At highest rating?

Other ideas?

For support:

-4 each troop costs 2gp, no free units
-3 each troop costs 1gp, no free units
-2 2 free units
-1 5 free units
0 8 free units
+1 12 free units
+2 16 free units
+3 20 free units
+4 30 free units

If possible it'd be nice to tie this value into how large your empire is as well so instead of a straight free units you'd get a calculation of free units depending on your civ size.

The above values are pretty extreme, but if we want a prototype eventually we need something.

Worker times increased/decreased for clearing or planting fungus
Nutrient, energy bonus increased/decreased per tile
The ability of cultural borders to keep fungus out
Capturing native lifeforms with bonus based on rating
Fighting native lifeforms with bonus based on rating
Trading with natives? Only possible at high rating
Peace with natives? At highest rating?

Good effects. :b: Except I'd suggest Planet does not influence fungus clearing time. Planet-friendly factions are supposed not to harm the fungus after all.

Good effects. :b: Except I'd suggest Planet does not influence fungus clearing time. Planet-friendly factions are supposed not to harm the fungus after all.

Good point. Maybe unfriendly factions have X chance of spawning natives when clearing a patch?

Also, adding bonuses to fungus tiles for eco friendly civs will eliminate the desire to clear.

Good point. Maybe unfriendly factions have X chance of spawning natives when clearing a patch?

Also, adding bonuses to fungus tiles for eco friendly civs will eliminate the desire to clear.

I think the second choice is best. It makes no sense to me why someone with a high planet rating would benefit from clearing fungus. Kind of contradictory.

Maybe at >=+1 Planet your workers can no longer clear at all.

Maybe at >=+1 Planet your workers can no longer clear at all.

That would be interesting, or reverse that: if you clear too much during the game, your planet value could "max out" at some not large number.

Of course, we'd probably have to come up with stuff like this for the other categories as well.

That would be interesting, or reverse that: if you clear too much during the game, your planet value could "max out" at some not large number.

Of course, we'd probably have to come up with stuff like this for the other categories as well.

Yeah, this is the sort of thing that can come out with brainstorming when we try to balance the SEs.

Maybe at >=+1 Planet your workers can no longer clear at all.

In that case Planet-friendly factions should be able to found cities on fungus though.

Should or shouldn't Maniac? I agree with shouldn't.

Should. If I was playing with the Cult of Planet and was more or less coexisting with the fungus, spreading it everywhere and unable to remove it, I would be very annoyed if one of my bases couldn't share the perfect founding tile with fungus.

Okay, so they aren't clearing it, but co-existing. I can agree with that.

So how is this going to be implemented into the Civics screen and XML? Will we need 10 new icons and XML tags that can raise/lower the overall total column which corresponds to a value for the faction? Can we just use the 10 factors and have the civics give tag numbers like <iPlanet>0</iPlanet>, <iSupport>0</iSupport>, ect? So each civic option will have these 10 choices to enter in numbers from -4 to 4.

Does this rambling make any sense?

To expand further (and I apologize if this is completely wrong or already assumed) is this what we plan on doing?

Changing this:

<CivicInfo>
<CivicOptionType>CIVICOPTION_GOVERNMENT</CivicOptionType>
<Type>CIVIC_AUTOCRACY</Type>
<Description>Autocracy</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_DESPOTISM_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<Strategy>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_DESPOTISM_STRATEGY</Strategy>
<Button>,Art/Interface/Buttons/Civics/g-autocracy.dds</Button>
<TechPrereq>NONE</TechPrereq>
<iAnarchyLength>1</iAnarchyLength>
<Upkeep>UPKEEP_LOW</Upkeep>
<iAIWeight>0</iAIWeight>
<iGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iGreatPeopleRateModifier>
<iStateReligionGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iStateReligionGreatPeopleRateModifier>
<iDistanceMaintenanceModifier>0</iDistanceMaintenanceModifier>
<iNumCitiesMaintenanceModifier>0</iNumCitiesMaintenanceModifier>
<iExtraHealth>0</iExtraHealth>
<iFreeExperience>0</iFreeExperience>
<iWorkerSpeedModifier>0</iWorkerSpeedModifier>
<iImprovementUpgradeRateModifier>0</iImprovementUpgradeRateModifier>
<iMilitaryProductionModifier>0</iMilitaryProductionModifier>
<iBaseFreeUnits>0</iBaseFreeUnits>
<iBaseFreeMilitaryUnits>0</iBaseFreeMilitaryUnits>
<iFreeUnitsPopulationPercent>0</iFreeUnitsPopulationPercent>
<iFreeMilitaryUnitsPopulationPercent>0</iFreeMilitaryUnitsPopulationPercent>
<iGoldPerUnit>0</iGoldPerUnit>
<iGoldPerMilitaryUnit>0</iGoldPerMilitaryUnit>
<iHappyPerMilitaryUnit>0</iHappyPerMilitaryUnit>
<bMilitaryFoodProduction>0</bMilitaryFoodProduction>
<iMaxConscript>0</iMaxConscript>
<bNoUnhealthyPopulation>0</bNoUnhealthyPopulation>
<bBuildingOnlyHealthy>0</bBuildingOnlyHealthy>
<iLargestCityHappiness>0</iLargestCityHappiness>
<iWarWearinessModifier>0</iWarWearinessModifier>
<iFreeSpecialist>0</iFreeSpecialist>
<iTradeRoutes>0</iTradeRoutes>
<bNoForeignTrade>0</bNoForeignTrade>
<iCivicPercentAnger>0</iCivicPercentAnger>
<bStateReligion>0</bStateReligion>
<bNoNonStateReligionSpread>0</bNoNonStateReligionSpread>
<iStateReligionHappiness>0</iStateReligionHappiness>
<iNonStateReligionHappiness>0</iNonStateReligionHappiness>
<iStateReligionUnitProductionModifier>0</iStateReligionUnitProductionModifier>
<iStateReligionBuildingProductionModifier>0</iStateReligionBuildingProductionModifier>
<iStateReligionFreeExperience>0</iStateReligionFreeExperience>
<YieldModifiers/>
<CapitalYieldModifiers/>
<TradeYieldModifiers/>
<CommerceModifiers/>
<CapitalCommerceModifiers/>
<SpecialistExtraCommerces/>
<Hurrys/>
<SpecialBuildingNotRequireds/>
<SpecialistValids/>
<BuildingHappinessChanges/>
<FeatureHappinessChanges/>
<ImprovementYieldChanges/>
<WeLoveTheKing>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_WE_LOVE_DESPOT</WeLoveTheKing>
</CivicInfo>


to this:

<CivicInfo>
<CivicOptionType>CIVICOPTION_GOVERNMENT</CivicOptionType>
<Type>CIVIC_AUTOCRACY</Type>
<Description>Autocracy</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_DESPOTISM_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<Strategy>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_DESPOTISM_STRATEGY</Strategy>
<Button>,Art/Interface/Buttons/Civics/g-autocracy.dds</Button>
<TechPrereq>NONE</TechPrereq>
<iAnarchyLength>1</iAnarchyLength>
<Upkeep>UPKEEP_LOW</Upkeep>
<iAIWeight>0</iAIWeight>
<iEconomy>0</iEconomy>
<iPlanet>0</iPlanet>
<iPolice>0</iPolice>
<iSupport>0</iSupport>
<iResearch>0</iResearch>
<iMorale>0</iMorale>
<iGrowth>0</iGrowth>
<iProbe>0</iProbe>
<iEfficiency>0</iEfficiency>
<iIndustry>0</iIndustry>
<WeLoveTheKing>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_WE_LOVE_DESPOT</WeLoveTheKing>
</CivicInfo>

And all of these 10 factors would also be included in either factions or individual leaders so we can add it altogether.

So how is this going to be implemented into the Civics screen and XML? Will we need 10 new icons and XML tags that can raise/lower the overall total column which corresponds to a value for the faction? Can we just use the 10 factors and have the civics give tag numbers like <iPlanet>0</iPlanet>, <iSupport>0</iSupport>, ect? So each civic option will have these 10 choices to enter in numbers from -4 to 4.

Does this rambling make any sense?

I wouldn't mind if someone wanted to do a mockup for a screen. As for the actual data, it's probably best if along with Civics and CivicOptions, there is a final category. Civics would be the actual state of each social engineering factor (support -10, support -9, etc., planet -10, planet -9, etc...). CivicOptions would be the engineering factors themselves (support, planet, etc.). The final new XML file would contain the Social Engineering choices, that would look like this..



<SocialEngineeringChoice>
<Type>SOCIAL_ENGEERING_CHOICE_PLANNED</Type>
<iWealth>1</iWealth>
<iSupport>-1</iSupport>
...
</SocialEngineeringChoice>


I'm just rushing to cobble together numbers, and also the "Social Engineering Choice" tag could probably be changed. But, that's what it would be.

So, everything works the same as in Civ4, including how the Civics are calculated, all that would change is how they can select those civics. Rather than clicking a button, they click on buttons changing their SE choices, and the correct civic is chosen for them.

So the Civics screen would hold the totals and that would equate to a value for the game to use?

I like the SMAC/X screen to be used as a template for this personally. It has all of the choices and a total column to let you see how your choices add up and their effects.

Here's a Social Engineering screenshot from SMAC/X. I would really like to see the Civics screen modified to reflect the layout of the SMAC/X screen; especially the horizontal value changes (7) (I never liked the vertical design of Civ4).

The "society effects" summary (1) would be a nice candidate for displaying the total effects--perhaps with some color indicators. Though, this part should be non-interactive.

These two parts make up the basic layout of the screen and leave us plenty of room to add non-SE civics and text boxes. The remaining parts can be ignored entirely as long as we have the option to display the SE value changes for each individual SE option.

The main components of the screen would be the 4x4 matrix and the list of the 10 SE values.

I'd be happy to help with the python screen, but I still cannot build one (at least not from scratch).
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/73453/SEInterfaceDetail.jpg

Do we need 2 and 3 of the screen?

Do we need 2 and 3 of the screen?

No. Only (1) & (7).

What about 5 and 8 if possible? I think they add something to the screen.

What about 5 and 8 if possible? I think they add something to the screen.

(5) is already present in (1)--or, you could say use (5) instead of (1) because of the non-interactive display.

I agree that the information in (8) should be displayed somewhere.

I think we can remove (2) & (3), and possibly (6). The rest I would keep (although I can't remember what (4) does... is that the one you're hovered over?)

I was thinking of having two (5)'s, one for current, and one for what it would be if you made the changes that you clicked (the changes don't take affect until you click "Revolution" or whatever it will be called).

BTW, the beauty of (1) was that you could click one of those and it would allow for you to instantly see the combination that would max that specified category. Should this be kept? If so, it will probably have to be taken into consideration as we create the screen.

Definitely going to have to do some mock-ups of this one.

Are we about to start building the screen (interactive 4x4 matrix + summary + accept/reset/exit buttons)?

I assume the rest (whatever we decide upon) can be added later.

Well I'm still against Social Engineering. As far as I can see the downsides clearly outweigh any benefits (please name them).

Rubin, might I remind you of something you said in the civics thread?

Maniac, there should basically be no reduction in flexibility using either system. I guess you can view it as two different ways of handling the same thing.

If using "Social Engineering" reduces our flexibility in making interesting civics then we should not be using "Social Engineering".

Meaning you'd more or less keep our options open for now.

However now, without even knowing what will the Social Engineering effects for the factors be or what the Social Engineering choices will be, you're already proposing to build a new screen and even tieing the number of SE choices down to 4x4. Aren't you guys getting way ahead of yourselves? Personally I'd say there are more important stuff to concentrate on which are more important to get something playable working (eg combat).

If you really already want to continue with implementing the possibility of social engineering though, may I suggest the following:

Change the current:

<CivicInfo>
<CivicOptionType>CIVICOPTION_GOVERNMENT</CivicOptionType>
<Type>CIVIC_AUTOCRACY</Type>
<Description>Autocracy</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_DESPOTISM_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<Strategy>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_DESPOTISM_STRATEGY</Strategy>
<Button>,Art/Interface/Buttons/Civics/g-autocracy.dds</Button>
<TechPrereq>NONE</TechPrereq>
<iAnarchyLength>1</iAnarchyLength>
<Upkeep>UPKEEP_LOW</Upkeep>
<iAIWeight>0</iAIWeight>
<iGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iGreatPeopleRateModifier>
<iStateReligionGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iStateReligionGreatPeopleRateModifier>
<iDistanceMaintenanceModifier>0</iDistanceMaintenanceModifier>
<iNumCitiesMaintenanceModifier>0</iNumCitiesMaintenanceModifier>
<iExtraHealth>0</iExtraHealth>
<iFreeExperience>0</iFreeExperience>
<iWorkerSpeedModifier>0</iWorkerSpeedModifier>
<iImprovementUpgradeRateModifier>0</iImprovementUpgradeRateModifier>
<iMilitaryProductionModifier>0</iMilitaryProductionModifier>
<iBaseFreeUnits>0</iBaseFreeUnits>
<iBaseFreeMilitaryUnits>0</iBaseFreeMilitaryUnits>
<iFreeUnitsPopulationPercent>0</iFreeUnitsPopulationPercent>
<iFreeMilitaryUnitsPopulationPercent>0</iFreeMilitaryUnitsPopulationPercent>
<iGoldPerUnit>0</iGoldPerUnit>
<iGoldPerMilitaryUnit>0</iGoldPerMilitaryUnit>
<iHappyPerMilitaryUnit>0</iHappyPerMilitaryUnit>
<bMilitaryFoodProduction>0</bMilitaryFoodProduction>
<iMaxConscript>0</iMaxConscript>
<bNoUnhealthyPopulation>0</bNoUnhealthyPopulation>
<bBuildingOnlyHealthy>0</bBuildingOnlyHealthy>
<iLargestCityHappiness>0</iLargestCityHappiness>
<iWarWearinessModifier>0</iWarWearinessModifier>
<iFreeSpecialist>0</iFreeSpecialist>
<iTradeRoutes>0</iTradeRoutes>
<bNoForeignTrade>0</bNoForeignTrade>
<iCivicPercentAnger>0</iCivicPercentAnger>
<bStateReligion>0</bStateReligion>
<bNoNonStateReligionSpread>0</bNoNonStateReligionSpread>
<iStateReligionHappiness>0</iStateReligionHappiness>
<iNonStateReligionHappiness>0</iNonStateReligionHappiness>
<iStateReligionUnitProductionModifier>0</iStateReligionUnitProductionModifier>
<iStateReligionBuildingProductionModifier>0</iStateReligionBuildingProductionModifier>
<iStateReligionFreeExperience>0</iStateReligionFreeExperience>
<YieldModifiers/>
<CapitalYieldModifiers/>
<TradeYieldModifiers/>
<CommerceModifiers/>
<CapitalCommerceModifiers/>
<SpecialistExtraCommerces/>
<Hurrys/>
<SpecialBuildingNotRequireds/>
<SpecialistValids/>
<BuildingHappinessChanges/>
<FeatureHappinessChanges/>
<ImprovementYieldChanges/>
<WeLoveTheKing>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_WE_LOVE_DESPOT</WeLoveTheKing>
</CivicInfo>


to:

<CivicInfo>
<CivicOptionType>CIVICOPTION_GOVERNMENT</CivicOptionType>
<Type>CIVIC_AUTOCRACY</Type>
<Description>Autocracy</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_DESPOTISM_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<Strategy>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_DESPOTISM_STRATEGY</Strategy>
<Button>,Art/Interface/Buttons/Civics/g-autocracy.dds</Button>
<TechPrereq>NONE</TechPrereq>
<iAnarchyLength>1</iAnarchyLength>
<Upkeep>UPKEEP_LOW</Upkeep>
<iAIWeight>0</iAIWeight>
<iEconomy>0</iEconomy>
<iPlanet>0</iPlanet>
<iPolice>0</iPolice>
<iSupport>0</iSupport>
<iResearch>0</iResearch>
<iMorale>0</iMorale>
<iGrowth>0</iGrowth>
<iProbe>0</iProbe>
<iEfficiency>0</iEfficiency>
<iIndustry>0</iIndustry>
<iGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iGreatPeopleRateModifier>
<iStateReligionGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iStateReligionGreatPeopleRateModifier>
<iDistanceMaintenanceModifier>0</iDistanceMaintenanceModifier>
<iNumCitiesMaintenanceModifier>0</iNumCitiesMaintenanceModifier>
<iExtraHealth>0</iExtraHealth>
<iFreeExperience>0</iFreeExperience>
<iWorkerSpeedModifier>0</iWorkerSpeedModifier>
<iImprovementUpgradeRateModifier>0</iImprovementUpgradeRateModifier>
<iMilitaryProductionModifier>0</iMilitaryProductionModifier>
<iBaseFreeUnits>0</iBaseFreeUnits>
<iBaseFreeMilitaryUnits>0</iBaseFreeMilitaryUnits>
<iFreeUnitsPopulationPercent>0</iFreeUnitsPopulationPercent>
<iFreeMilitaryUnitsPopulationPercent>0</iFreeMilitaryUnitsPopulationPercent>
<iGoldPerUnit>0</iGoldPerUnit>
<iGoldPerMilitaryUnit>0</iGoldPerMilitaryUnit>
<iHappyPerMilitaryUnit>0</iHappyPerMilitaryUnit>
<bMilitaryFoodProduction>0</bMilitaryFoodProduction>
<iMaxConscript>0</iMaxConscript>
<bNoUnhealthyPopulation>0</bNoUnhealthyPopulation>
<bBuildingOnlyHealthy>0</bBuildingOnlyHealthy>
<iLargestCityHappiness>0</iLargestCityHappiness>
<iWarWearinessModifier>0</iWarWearinessModifier>
<iFreeSpecialist>0</iFreeSpecialist>
<iTradeRoutes>0</iTradeRoutes>
<bNoForeignTrade>0</bNoForeignTrade>
<iCivicPercentAnger>0</iCivicPercentAnger>
<bStateReligion>0</bStateReligion>
<bNoNonStateReligionSpread>0</bNoNonStateReligionSpread>
<iStateReligionHappiness>0</iStateReligionHappiness>
<iNonStateReligionHappiness>0</iNonStateReligionHappiness>
<iStateReligionUnitProductionModifier>0</iStateReligionUnitProductionModifier>
<iStateReligionBuildingProductionModifier>0</iStateReligionBuildingProductionModifier>
<iStateReligionFreeExperience>0</iStateReligionFreeExperience>
<YieldModifiers/>
<CapitalYieldModifiers/>
<TradeYieldModifiers/>
<CommerceModifiers/>
<CapitalCommerceModifiers/>
<SpecialistExtraCommerces/>
<Hurrys/>
<SpecialBuildingNotRequireds/>
<SpecialistValids/>
<BuildingHappinessChanges/>
<FeatureHappinessChanges/>
<ImprovementYieldChanges/>
<WeLoveTheKing>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_WE_LOVE_DESPOT</WeLoveTheKing>
</CivicInfo>


Meaning if you later find there's some cool civics effect that you cannot or don't want to fit in a SE factor, you can still use it.

And to determine the effects of each value of each SE factor, may I suggest a new XML file called CIV4SocialEngineeringInfos.xml including stuff like:

<SocialEngineeringInfo>
<SEFactor>SEFACTOR_PLANET</SEFactor>
<iValue>0</iValue>
<Description>Autocracy</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_DESPOTISM_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<Strategy>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_DESPOTISM_STRATEGY</Strategy>
<Button>,Art/Interface/Buttons/Civics/g-autocracy.dds</Button>
<TechPrereq>NONE</TechPrereq>
<iAnarchyLength>1</iAnarchyLength>
<Upkeep>UPKEEP_LOW</Upkeep>
<iAIWeight>0</iAIWeight>
<iGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iGreatPeopleRateModifier>
<iStateReligionGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iStateReligionGreatPeopleRateModifier>
<iDistanceMaintenanceModifier>0</iDistanceMaintenanceModifier>
<iNumCitiesMaintenanceModifier>0</iNumCitiesMaintenanceModifier>
<iExtraHealth>0</iExtraHealth>
<iFreeExperience>0</iFreeExperience>
<iWorkerSpeedModifier>0</iWorkerSpeedModifier>
<iImprovementUpgradeRateModifier>0</iImprovementUpgradeRateModifier>
<iMilitaryProductionModifier>0</iMilitaryProductionModifier>
<iBaseFreeUnits>0</iBaseFreeUnits>
<iBaseFreeMilitaryUnits>0</iBaseFreeMilitaryUnits>
<iFreeUnitsPopulationPercent>0</iFreeUnitsPopulationPercent>
<iFreeMilitaryUnitsPopulationPercent>0</iFreeMilitaryUnitsPopulationPercent>
<iGoldPerUnit>0</iGoldPerUnit>
<iGoldPerMilitaryUnit>0</iGoldPerMilitaryUnit>
<iHappyPerMilitaryUnit>0</iHappyPerMilitaryUnit>
<bMilitaryFoodProduction>0</bMilitaryFoodProduction>
<iMaxConscript>0</iMaxConscript>
<bNoUnhealthyPopulation>0</bNoUnhealthyPopulation>
<bBuildingOnlyHealthy>0</bBuildingOnlyHealthy>
<iLargestCityHappiness>0</iLargestCityHappiness>
<iWarWearinessModifier>0</iWarWearinessModifier>
<iFreeSpecialist>0</iFreeSpecialist>
<iTradeRoutes>0</iTradeRoutes>
<bNoForeignTrade>0</bNoForeignTrade>
<iCivicPercentAnger>0</iCivicPercentAnger>
<bStateReligion>0</bStateReligion>
<bNoNonStateReligionSpread>0</bNoNonStateReligionSpread>
<iStateReligionHappiness>0</iStateReligionHappiness>
<iNonStateReligionHappiness>0</iNonStateReligionHappiness>
<iStateReligionUnitProductionModifier>0</iStateReligionUnitProductionModifier>
<iStateReligionBuildingProductionModifier>0</iStateReligionBuildingProductionModifier>
<iStateReligionFreeExperience>0</iStateReligionFreeExperience>
<YieldModifiers/>
<CapitalYieldModifiers/>
<TradeYieldModifiers/>
<CommerceModifiers/>
<CapitalCommerceModifiers/>
<SpecialistExtraCommerces/>
<Hurrys/>
<SpecialBuildingNotRequireds/>
<SpecialistValids/>
<BuildingHappinessChanges/>
<FeatureHappinessChanges/>
<ImprovementYieldChanges/>
<WeLoveTheKing>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_WE_LOVE_DESPOT</WeLoveTheKing>
</SocialEngineeringInfo>


Since Social Engineering is merely tying civics effects together, you could then set civics values for each SE factor value.

Maniac, the "flexibility" issue still stands. All I asked was if we are about to build the screen.

No matter how Planetfall civics are going to be, I'd still be advocating a re-designed civics screen.

If you (or anyone else) would like to do something else, please go ahead. I did mention in this post that I may not be of much use on civics.:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5127708&postcount=18

I disagree with your objection to "tieing the number of SE choices down to 4x4". If the screen is defined by this, it would be pointless, of course. However, this is not the case based on my previous experiences of modifying screens. If I am wrong on this specific issue, please correct me.

I offer my help where I can. Currently, there is not much I can do and I won't be detailing specific issues like a combat system or a "Design Workshop" workaround; simply because you are still brainstorming. It is a waste of both my time and your time. There has been a lot of good ideas on a SMAC/X themed mod since before Civ4 launched; there has been no such mods! I urge all of you to decide on "something" as soon as possible.

How long should you debate civics?

Well I'm still against Social Engineering. As far as I can see the downsides clearly outweigh any benefits (please name them).


I've already come out with my support and reasons, unfortunately they seem to be in another thread.

The upside is that Social Engineering allows me as the player to easily select how I want to concentrate my civic choices. The civic system in Civ4 is a bunch of different bonuses/penalties that are spread over a bunch of different civics, which are only described and identified through their terms such as "Slavery" or "Freedom of Speech". I can get "Freedom of Speech" and get what I want, but it probably has other consequences too. I want to be able to weigh these together, and I'm lazy, so I want to be able to do it easily. Social Engineering allows me to easily be able to do that, by providing me a system to measure the gains/benefits. I can see in a glance that choosing one civic over another will harm/hurt different parts of my Faction (economy, military, planet-friendliness, etc.) Furthermore, by simply clicking which part I want to work on, I can have the Civics basically chosen for me, which is something in Civ4 I miss.

However, I also realize that I probably won't be doing a lot with the Civics (as you can probably tell, I'm not really interested in that part of Civ4 and SMAC), so my opinion probably be counted alongside or above others.


Rubin, might I remind you of something you said in the civics thread?



Meaning you'd more or less keep our options open for now.

However now, without even knowing what will the Social Engineering effects for the factors be or what the Social Engineering choices will be, you're already proposing to build a new screen and even tieing the number of SE choices down to 4x4.


It's probably a bit early for tying it down 4x4, but my plan (which I now realize I didn't formally express) was to early on, go with a screen exactly like Civ4's, except each CivicOption table had somewhere around 11 civics, and each one was about one of the different capabilities. So, your "Wealth" would have from -5 to 5, and while we test we could just select the one we wanted. Later on, the screen would be formatted to have the actual Social Engineering choices. I think much of the ideas here were what the screen would look like because there wasn't that much opposition to SE in the first place. Now that we've heard some, we'll probably stop measuring the window size for curtains :P



<CivicInfo>
<CivicOptionType>CIVICOPTION_GOVERNMENT</CivicOptionType>
<Type>CIVIC_AUTOCRACY</Type>
<Description>Autocracy</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_DESPOTISM_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<Strategy>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_DESPOTISM_STRATEGY</Strategy>
<Button>,Art/Interface/Buttons/Civics/g-autocracy.dds</Button>
<TechPrereq>NONE</TechPrereq>
<iAnarchyLength>1</iAnarchyLength>
<Upkeep>UPKEEP_LOW</Upkeep>
<iAIWeight>0</iAIWeight>
<iGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iGreatPeopleRateModifier>
<iStateReligionGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iStateReligionGreatPeopleRateModifier>
<iDistanceMaintenanceModifier>0</iDistanceMaintenanceModifier>
<iNumCitiesMaintenanceModifier>0</iNumCitiesMaintenanceModifier>
<iExtraHealth>0</iExtraHealth>
<iFreeExperience>0</iFreeExperience>
<iWorkerSpeedModifier>0</iWorkerSpeedModifier>
<iImprovementUpgradeRateModifier>0</iImprovementUpgradeRateModifier>
<iMilitaryProductionModifier>0</iMilitaryProductionModifier>
<iBaseFreeUnits>0</iBaseFreeUnits>
<iBaseFreeMilitaryUnits>0</iBaseFreeMilitaryUnits>
<iFreeUnitsPopulationPercent>0</iFreeUnitsPopulationPercent>
<iFreeMilitaryUnitsPopulationPercent>0</iFreeMilitaryUnitsPopulationPercent>
<iGoldPerUnit>0</iGoldPerUnit>
<iGoldPerMilitaryUnit>0</iGoldPerMilitaryUnit>
<iHappyPerMilitaryUnit>0</iHappyPerMilitaryUnit>
<bMilitaryFoodProduction>0</bMilitaryFoodProduction>
<iMaxConscript>0</iMaxConscript>
<bNoUnhealthyPopulation>0</bNoUnhealthyPopulation>
<bBuildingOnlyHealthy>0</bBuildingOnlyHealthy>
<iLargestCityHappiness>0</iLargestCityHappiness>
<iWarWearinessModifier>0</iWarWearinessModifier>
<iFreeSpecialist>0</iFreeSpecialist>
<iTradeRoutes>0</iTradeRoutes>
<bNoForeignTrade>0</bNoForeignTrade>
<iCivicPercentAnger>0</iCivicPercentAnger>
<bStateReligion>0</bStateReligion>
<bNoNonStateReligionSpread>0</bNoNonStateReligionSpread>
<iStateReligionHappiness>0</iStateReligionHappiness>
<iNonStateReligionHappiness>0</iNonStateReligionHappiness>
<iStateReligionUnitProductionModifier>0</iStateReligionUnitProductionModifier>
<iStateReligionBuildingProductionModifier>0</iStateReligionBuildingProductionModifier>
<iStateReligionFreeExperience>0</iStateReligionFreeExperience>
<YieldModifiers/>
<CapitalYieldModifiers/>
<TradeYieldModifiers/>
<CommerceModifiers/>
<CapitalCommerceModifiers/>
<SpecialistExtraCommerces/>
<Hurrys/>
<SpecialBuildingNotRequireds/>
<SpecialistValids/>
<BuildingHappinessChanges/>
<FeatureHappinessChanges/>
<ImprovementYieldChanges/>
<WeLoveTheKing>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_WE_LOVE_DESPOT</WeLoveTheKing>
</CivicInfo>


to:

<CivicInfo>
<CivicOptionType>CIVICOPTION_GOVERNMENT</CivicOptionType>
<Type>CIVIC_AUTOCRACY</Type>
<Description>Autocracy</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_DESPOTISM_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<Strategy>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_DESPOTISM_STRATEGY</Strategy>
<Button>,Art/Interface/Buttons/Civics/g-autocracy.dds</Button>
<TechPrereq>NONE</TechPrereq>
<iAnarchyLength>1</iAnarchyLength>
<Upkeep>UPKEEP_LOW</Upkeep>
<iAIWeight>0</iAIWeight>
<iEconomy>0</iEconomy>
<iPlanet>0</iPlanet>
<iPolice>0</iPolice>
<iSupport>0</iSupport>
<iResearch>0</iResearch>
<iMorale>0</iMorale>
<iGrowth>0</iGrowth>
<iProbe>0</iProbe>
<iEfficiency>0</iEfficiency>
<iIndustry>0</iIndustry>
<iGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iGreatPeopleRateModifier>
<iStateReligionGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iStateReligionGreatPeopleRateModifier>
<iDistanceMaintenanceModifier>0</iDistanceMaintenanceModifier>
<iNumCitiesMaintenanceModifier>0</iNumCitiesMaintenanceModifier>
<iExtraHealth>0</iExtraHealth>
<iFreeExperience>0</iFreeExperience>
<iWorkerSpeedModifier>0</iWorkerSpeedModifier>
<iImprovementUpgradeRateModifier>0</iImprovementUpgradeRateModifier>
<iMilitaryProductionModifier>0</iMilitaryProductionModifier>
<iBaseFreeUnits>0</iBaseFreeUnits>
<iBaseFreeMilitaryUnits>0</iBaseFreeMilitaryUnits>
<iFreeUnitsPopulationPercent>0</iFreeUnitsPopulationPercent>
<iFreeMilitaryUnitsPopulationPercent>0</iFreeMilitaryUnitsPopulationPercent>
<iGoldPerUnit>0</iGoldPerUnit>
<iGoldPerMilitaryUnit>0</iGoldPerMilitaryUnit>
<iHappyPerMilitaryUnit>0</iHappyPerMilitaryUnit>
<bMilitaryFoodProduction>0</bMilitaryFoodProduction>
<iMaxConscript>0</iMaxConscript>
<bNoUnhealthyPopulation>0</bNoUnhealthyPopulation>
<bBuildingOnlyHealthy>0</bBuildingOnlyHealthy>
<iLargestCityHappiness>0</iLargestCityHappiness>
<iWarWearinessModifier>0</iWarWearinessModifier>
<iFreeSpecialist>0</iFreeSpecialist>
<iTradeRoutes>0</iTradeRoutes>
<bNoForeignTrade>0</bNoForeignTrade>
<iCivicPercentAnger>0</iCivicPercentAnger>
<bStateReligion>0</bStateReligion>
<bNoNonStateReligionSpread>0</bNoNonStateReligionSpread>
<iStateReligionHappiness>0</iStateReligionHappiness>
<iNonStateReligionHappiness>0</iNonStateReligionHappiness>
<iStateReligionUnitProductionModifier>0</iStateReligionUnitProductionModifier>
<iStateReligionBuildingProductionModifier>0</iStateReligionBuildingProductionModifier>
<iStateReligionFreeExperience>0</iStateReligionFreeExperience>
<YieldModifiers/>
<CapitalYieldModifiers/>
<TradeYieldModifiers/>
<CommerceModifiers/>
<CapitalCommerceModifiers/>
<SpecialistExtraCommerces/>
<Hurrys/>
<SpecialBuildingNotRequireds/>
<SpecialistValids/>
<BuildingHappinessChanges/>
<FeatureHappinessChanges/>
<ImprovementYieldChanges/>
<WeLoveTheKing>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_WE_LOVE_DESPOT</WeLoveTheKing>
</CivicInfo>


Meaning if you later find there's some cool civics effect that you cannot or don't want to fit in a SE factor, you can still use it.



This would probably be more difficult to implement. Each of those tags relate to different pieces of code, and currently my thoughts were to make a CivicInfo and make it one step on the range of values you can have for any SE Category. That way, all the code is all done and all we need to do is add code to set what Civic is needed. If we did want to have some cool civics effect that doesn't fit into an SE factor, it would be easier to leave all that code in the Civics system, where it will be used, and copy any part we want into the new SE Factor system, rather than vice-versa. I hope I explained that well.

And to determine the effects of each value of each SE factor, may I suggest a new XML file called CIV4SocialEngineeringInfos.xml including stuff like:

<SocialEngineeringInfo>
<SEFactor>SEFACTOR_PLANET</SEFactor>
<iValue>0</iValue>
<Description>Autocracy</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_DESPOTISM_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<Strategy>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_DESPOTISM_STRATEGY</Strategy>
<Button>,Art/Interface/Buttons/Civics/g-autocracy.dds</Button>
<TechPrereq>NONE</TechPrereq>
<iAnarchyLength>1</iAnarchyLength>
<Upkeep>UPKEEP_LOW</Upkeep>
<iAIWeight>0</iAIWeight>
<iGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iGreatPeopleRateModifier>
<iStateReligionGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iStateReligionGreatPeopleRateModifier>
<iDistanceMaintenanceModifier>0</iDistanceMaintenanceModifier>
<iNumCitiesMaintenanceModifier>0</iNumCitiesMaintenanceModifier>
<iExtraHealth>0</iExtraHealth>
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Since Social Engineering is merely tying civics effects together, you could then set civics values for each SE factor value.[/QUOTE]

But then it wouldn't be Social Engineering. It would be Civics. Which means you lose the reasons why I think that Social Engineering is a better idea. If I'm wrong on this, than so be it, but at least let's figure out which way we stand before we go ahead and implement it.

Maniac, the "flexibility" issue still stands. All I asked was if we are about to build the screen.

No matter how Planetfall civics are going to be, I'd still be advocating a re-designed civics screen.

If you (or anyone else) would like to do something else, please go ahead. I did mention in this post that I may not be of much use on civics.:

I disagree with your objection to "tieing the number of SE choices down to 4x4". If the screen is defined by this, it would be pointless, of course. However, this is not the case based on my previous experiences of modifying screens. If I am wrong on this specific issue, please correct me.



I think you used the 4x4 matrix as an example, but Maniac (and I as well, at first) took it as a decision.



I offer my help where I can. Currently, there is not much I can do and I won't be detailing specific issues like a combat system or a "Design Workshop" workaround; simply because you are still brainstorming. It is a waste of both my time and your time. There has been a lot of good ideas on a SMAC/X themed mod since before Civ4 launched; there has been no such mods! I urge all of you to decide on "something" as soon as possible.



And I can only urge patience. I think we're confusing the past few years of other SMAC mods plannings with planning for this mod, which isn't the case. I'm ok with where we are, and where we're going. There's discussion, and that's fine, it's a good thing, point the things out now. You'd be amazed how well I can work so long as we have definite articles of what can be implemented, even if it's "That won't be the final word, but it's close enough so that we can play with it awhile".

However, seeing as I had thought that we were all on the same page with combat, I think we should go and finalize that first, because the tech tree and unit movement/combat, I believe, are what drive the rest of the game.

Maniac, the "flexibility" issue still stands. All I asked was if we are about to build the screen.

I guess I misinterpreted you on te 4x4 issue. ;)

I've already come out with my support and reasons, unfortunately they seem to be in another thread.

Do I understand you correctly that you want:
1) an easier to use interface
2) less strategic variety so you don't have to think much about what to choose

While I agree with 1), personally I'd disagree with 2) as a goal. ;)

I think much of the ideas here were what the screen would look like because there wasn't that much opposition to SE in the first place. Now that we've heard some, we'll probably stop measuring the window size for curtains :P

Well, I just disagreed with Rubin & woodelf, so there isn't much else I can say or add.

This would probably be more difficult to implement. Each of those tags relate to different pieces of code, and currently my thoughts were to make a CivicInfo and make it one step on the range of values you can have for any SE Category. That way, all the code is all done and all we need to do is add code to set what Civic is needed. If we did want to have some cool civics effect that doesn't fit into an SE factor, it would be easier to leave all that code in the Civics system, where it will be used, and copy any part we want into the new SE Factor system, rather than vice-versa. I hope I explained that well.

Hmm, I'm not sure I understand. Do you mean you want to code all civics into the SDK, meaning that if we wanted to make a slight balance change, it would always have to be done in the SDK?

But then it wouldn't be Social Engineering. It would be Civics. Which means you lose the reasons why I think that Social Engineering is a better idea. If I'm wrong on this, than so be it, but at least let's figure out which way we stand before we go ahead and implement it.

:confused: We may again be confused about what we all consider Social Engineering. Isn't it:
1) summarizing various effects into a simple +x Planet/Police/..., meaning less clutter on the screen
2) having the option for the effects of +2 Economy being more than +1 Economy +1 Economy

With the suggest SocialEngineeringInfos.xml you could in XML set the effects of each individual SE factor value using existing specific civics effects.

While 1) is of course a good goal, my experience with 2) through the SMAniaC SE is that it seriously reduces your options in creating interesting SE choices. Because you always have to be conservative; you always have to go through each possible combination of SE choices/faction/buildings... to make sure there isn't some overpowered combo possible. :sad:

I think you used the 4x4 matrix as an example, but Maniac (and I as well, at first) took it as a decision.

Yep.

Do I understand you correctly that you want:
1) an easier to use interface
2) less strategic variety so you don't have to think much about what to choose

While I agree with 1), personally I'd disagree with 2) as a goal. ;)


Of course, you twist my words, sir :P



Hmm, I'm not sure I understand. Do you mean you want to code all civics into the SDK, meaning that if we wanted to make a slight balance change, it would always have to be done in the SDK?


No, rather we would add on a third XML file to the already existant Civ4Civics and Civ4CivicOptions, and place the social engineering choices ("Planned", "Free Market", "Police State", for example) into that third file. Those files would just have the +'s and -'s. The SDK side of the civic XML would be left untouched. If we wanted to make an SE choice do more than just the + or -, we could more easily copy the code and tags from the civics file. This, IMO, is easier than placing the SE choices in the Civics file, then finding somewhere else to put all the results of the different values (-5, -4, -3...) for each Factor.



:confused: We may again be confused about what we all consider Social Engineering. Isn't it:
1) summarizing various effects into a simple +x Planet/Police/..., meaning less clutter on the screen
2) having the option for the effects of +2 Economy being more than +1 Economy +1 Economy

With the suggest SocialEngineeringInfos.xml you could in XML set the effects of each individual SE factor value using existing specific civics effects.

While 1) is of course a good goal, my experience with 2) through the SMAniaC SE is that it seriously reduces your options in creating interesting SE choices. Because you always have to be conservative; you always have to go through each possible combination of SE choices/faction/buildings... to make sure there isn't some overpowered combo possible. :sad:


Well, that's a discussion for SE vs. Civics. But, if we do go the SE route, I would put all the big changes in the Civics file, where there is already the ability to handle it, and the +1 and -1 into a new file.

They can't go in the same file, or at least they can't go in the same XML. You can't have an SE choice such as Free Market which is also the +3 Planet "civic", that would be putting apples and oranges in the same XML file.

As I see it, civics and Social Engineering are the same thing? Only the term is different?

I had to move you Geo. :p

They are the same, but not. Please read the Education of woodelf on the differences of SE and civics, better know as this thread.

Ah, thanks. Will read tomorrow evening after work. :)

Read at work, multi-task.

Can't, I have a drone job. ;)
g'night all. :zzz:

I've made a quick chart of what I feel to be the main difference. I'm not sure if it will help at all. Basically, in Civics, you have 5 civic options, and for each five civics. Each Civic typically can do whatever it wants.

In SE, you have the four SE categories, each Category has Category options, each option gives + or - to effects, and each effect, depending on the total +/-, deals certain effects to the player.

So Geo gets the Cliff notes and I had to get tutored. :p

Thanks Gerikes, the pic brought me up to speed in no-time. :D

Well, after reading the thread it seems most participants in it are in favour of SE over Civics.
I haven't seen a post why Maniac is against it, but knowing his educational background I might have a fair idea myself. :mischief:

Can I take it this mod is going to use Social Engineering?

Thanks Gerikes, the pic brought me up to speed in no-time. :D


Really? After I posted it I thought it would cause more confusion :P


Well, after reading the thread it seems most participants in it are in favour of SE over Civics.
I haven't seen a post why Maniac is against it, but knowing his educational background I might have a fair idea myself. :mischief:

Can I take it this mod is going to use Social Engineering?

You can if you'd like, but you would be wrong :P

For now, it's still up in the air. Maniac made good points in post 67, that in the end we would be forcing ourselves to create Civics that specialize in one area.

I was going to suggest that for now we create the Civic screen using normal Civic Options and Civics that would represent what we would use for our SE Categories and SE Category Options.

For example, if we were to be cloning SMAC, we would have the four civic options, and the four civics for each one. Take Free Market. The civic effects would relate to options that have to do with police ("support" and unit happiness tags), options that have to do with planet (I guess health for now), and options that have to do with economy (wealth bonuses). This would bring us half-way to what we want, as we would be getting the bonuses we need (the Free Market civic would give great bonuses in economy tags, and great penalties in police tags. I'm not familiar with the Civic tags so I don't exactly know what can be done currently).

This would only be using XML, unless a tag needs to be added here or there. It shouldn't take long, and it gives us a base of what we want to work with and allows us to test out values that we could easily transfer to SE if we want to.

Really? After I posted it I thought it would cause more confusion :P

You forget I have a background in both games. :p


You can if you'd like, but you would be wrong :P

Okay... well, guess that makes it for now easier to come up with benefits/disadvantages.
So, do we use the morale, research, police,... and so on labels now or not? (for now)

Civics will work if we have traits and civics that use the same modifiers and nothing extra. So we can't have traits or civics that have independently controled variables. They have to be cummulative. I think.

Civics will work if we have traits and civics that use the same modifiers and nothing extra. So we can't have traits or civics that have independently controled variables. They have to be cummulative. I think.

If I understand you correctly, then yes, that's the weakness of Civics in this case, you can't say "Ok, once you reach +5 Police, something special happens that isn't just what happens at +1 to +4 but moreso" without making everything really ugly by doing it in python.

However, I wouldn't be against, at least for now, putting these things into the game just so that we have something to work with.

Yup, we need that table that the total goes to and find the overall effect. But for now we can brainstorm civics/SE and traits and try to tie them all together.

Time to kick this around again IMO.

Any of the new guys have thoughts? Should we stick with straight civics or go with the SMAC SE system?

I am fairly neutral on the matter. While I can appreciate the arguments in favor of the strategy involved in the extra layer that SE adds, I don't see it as vital to the mod. I'm just as happy making each choice fully unique in the effects it can create, instead of contributing to a pool of potentially unique effects.

Right now, I see several options:
-Leave what's there, and have someone begin the monster (presumably?) coding task of implementing SE as it is in SMAC (possibly temporary, but an easy point of reference with most effects having obvious civ counterparts)

-Create temporary/permanent civics along the lines of SMAC (Democracy, Cybernetic, etc), each with unique effects that feel sensible. (E.G. Wealth allows rushing with Gold and provides happiness for Energy Banks)

-Create temporary/permanent civics along the lines of SMAC (Democracy, Cybernetic, etc), each with generic effects along the lines of the "counterparts" mentioned in the first option, albeit without any additional bonuses. (E.G. Wealth provides +10% Credits, +10% Production, and -1 XP)

-Create temporary civics which represent the underlying categories in SE (Growth, Efficiency, etc) which only account for positives, with the understanding that it will be used as a code base for a later "full" implementation of SE (E.G. Production +1 provides +10% Production, Production +2 provides +20%, etc).

Edit: I am most in favor of the second option as a permanent solution, or the 4th option as a temporary solution.

I'm leaning towards your option 2 as well GRM unless someone wants to hammer it out to make it like SMAC SE. The civics system in Civ4 can do a solid job and when you factor in leader traits you get good representation.

I don't have any problem with option 2 but I still hope we can reach a SE board in a subsequent version. Let us have a fully playable mod first.

If no one objects I'm going to revisit this and try to do option 2. I had some good notes somewhere a couple months back and need to refind them.

5 months later and I never found those notes... :rolleyes:

Check this thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=247762) for a new mini-mod that has sort of what I was thinking about ---- negative traits. Combining positive and negative traits and maybe even allowing them to be Adaptive ala FfH2 could be combined with civics to simulate SE. Unless someone still feels straight SE is the way to go.

Here's an idea, use the same names for the civics as the Social Engineering names and categories. But instead of giving +/- numbers, just given the appropriate bonus, such as health, money, maintenance, military bonuses, etc.