Not really sure I want to even post this yet, but here it goes anyway.

As some of you may know, last demogame we had an organized RPG which died rather quickly. Looking back through the Civ III archives not many of the demogames were able to support organized RPG's that contained economies. Although DG II (CivIII) was the most successful in doing so, without the key RPG leaders, economies looked doubtful. Before the CivIV DG II got it's own forum, I brought up the idea of an organized RPG for this demogame, and got some mixed feelings on it.

I'd like to know, if any of the citizens would like to have an organized RPG, with an economy and what not (although land conflict looks way too complicated) and if any citizens would be interested in helping run it. I'd devote a good amount of my time to make sure it stays running, but I doubt that I could do that alone.

For those of you who are new to the demogame, the CIV III Demogame II RPG Archive can be found here (make sure you are viewing threads from "the beginning.")

If we do want to go through with this, I do not want to make a super complicated economy, but something simple enough to have a bit of fun with.

14 thread views, and noone has posted whether they approve or disapprove. Odd.

Also I had this idea while I was cooking tortellini. I followed through and considered it's faults, but I'd still like to introduce it. So here it goes:

It's kind of hard to have an RPG with an economy, especially when it's based on a map, which doesn't allow you to view inside a city. Some of you who play civ also play other strategy games, including city builders. I myself own Caesar IV (which is exceptional until an older processor can't handle it, and causes sporadic in-game fires) and I draw many connections between the game and CIV. I know just the thought of using something from another game will automatically get me a few "no's", but any city builder could be used (such as Civ City : Rome by Sid Meier.) Only reason I propose Caesar IV is because it's considered one of the best city builders out there, and it's the only city builder I own.

The game has a variety of buildings and comes with a snapshot camera view that allows you to take screenshots to encompass pretty much anything you want (I.E. the view of the whole map, still pretty detailed, or a birds-eye view of one small region.) Since there are so many buildings, and maps can be rather huge if you set them to be, it would be fun to develop cities via RPG. Usually in the RPG people start out in the capitol city with a small house. With a map of the city, we can designate houses to people, people could select where to build business and other buildings. When someone builds something or something happens, it could be reflected on the map. I'd simply open the save, make the changes, save it, take a screen shot, and repost. Anyone who has Caesar IV could download the save and help with the screenies as well.

Here is a screenshot of a couple of blocks of plebian apartments, and a market place (I used 4 food markets placed together) with a couple of patrican estates in the back. (I didn't put in any equestrian domus (plural is domii???))

http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/1277/lugdunum070221222303ab5.jpg

If you guys want I could probably post a screen that has every building design in the game.

Again just an idea. Who is to say we'll even have an rpg?

14 thread views, and noone has posted whether they approve or disapprove. Odd.


Maybe the enthusiasts haven't been online yet?

I would be generally supportive of an RPG if it doesn't take people away from discussions about the base DG. Personally I'm not likely to have enough free time.

Maybe the enthusiasts haven't been online yet?

I would be one of those. But after going through 2 DG RPG deaths, I'm not sure if I can commit so much time to another. I'll play, but I don't know if I can do any helping with the running until I see it something besides the tavern get going.

(I didn't put in any equestrian domus (plural is domii???))


I think it's domi (the -ii is only if the singular ends in -ius, I think). I could be wrong.

Now I have to curse you--you gave me the urge to vandalize a governor's mansion, but the nearest one is about 85 miles from here...

I like to rp, and I love rpgs... I would have posted earlier ice2k4 but I was busy all day.. Explain to me how this works and I'll see if I can help.

14 thread views, and noone has posted whether they approve or disapprove. Odd.


Since I was one of the 14, I'll give one answer. I'm new to DG and waiting to see it in action. I'm not particularly interested in adding a second game in parallel before I've seen the first. Additionally, I did a bit of browsing of the thread you referenced and did not come away with a good understanding of how it works. It seemed to be purely text-based and I prefer something visual. Hope this helps.

yes we need a guide, like a flow chart to show how each official affects each other and what their powers are, that would make it easier for new people to join in, i have been on the site quite a lot for 3 or so weeks and still have problems knowing what is happening.

Since I was one of the 14, I'll give one answer. I'm new to DG and waiting to see it in action. I'm not particularly interested in adding a second game in parallel before I've seen the first. Additionally, I did a bit of browsing of the thread you referenced and did not come away with a good understanding of how it works. It seemed to be purely text-based and I prefer something visual. Hope this helps.

yes we need a guide, like a flow chart to show how each official affects each other and what their powers are, that would make it easier for new people to join in, i have been on the site quite a lot for 3 or so weeks and still have problems knowing what is happening.

Good points! I created an Information Office (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208717) thread, and your requests are now featured as the very first requests for information this game. :D

I also was one of them.
Nothing against; and pro...I did not understand/know that second proposed
game.
If you play it, I'll try to learn.
Best regards,

A Beginner's Guide to the DemoGame RPG

The DemoGame RPG, is a role playing forum, which is based on the demogame, yet has no real effect on it. In the forum you can usually find the following:

1) Role playing threads based on the demogame.
2) An economy
3) Shops and other business
4) Tournaments and Competitions
5) Land Management
6) Religions (Role Playing)
7) Land Conflict*
8) Citizen Groups*

Now just looking at that doesn't tell you much. So let me give you a few examples.

1) Role Playing Threads - A prime example is the Mongol Looting Party from CivIV DG I. When we declared war on the Mongols, three of the citiznes otok up arms and went on a search through the Mongolian lands, to plunder for loot. Before leaving BCLG, the owner of the Rebel Pub II, asked the three to find him a certain ale for his Pub.

2) The Economy - The economy gave the RPG an aspect which set goals for certain users. Not all users had to participate in the economy, (as they could simply choose not to buy or sell anything) but many found it fun to venture into the business world. In the last demogame, users were given 500 gold to start out with. An economy was set up, in which they could set up business, to make money, so they could spend money at other citizen's business. Other things are factored in, such as taxes.

3) Shops and other Business - Shops, such as taverns served a multi-purpose in the demogames. Not only were they for business purpose, but they served as a place for people to hangout and what not. PBEM's, bets, games and other things have all come out of discussion in a tavern. Don't be mistaken, there are an unlimited type of business, such as construction (hey people need a building to conduct their business, right?)

4) Tournaments and Competitions - Usually upon registration of the RPG, you are required to distribute skill points amongst quite a few categories, such as speed and strength. These skills functioned to determine odds in tournaments set up by users, such as gladiator games, or chariot races.

5) Another way to earn money in the RPG was to buy a tile of land up for auction. (Tiles would be auctioned off by the Land Manager, city tiles could not be auctioned.) Based on the food, hammer and commerce production of each tile, you would earn a certain amount of gold per turnchat. Many people placed their business in the city for free, however specialized business, such as lumber mills, might want to put their business on a forest tile.

6) Religions - Another roleplaying aspect. Some citizens decided to create various religions (usually not real-life religions) and write parts to their holy book. A noticeable religion was Chipism (the worship of Chip), which can be found in the previous demogame.

7) Land Conflict - I really can't talk about this much, since I was never in a demogame where this was used. In Demogame II RPG, Land conflict was used where users would control armies, and tried to occupy land from other users. It was based on a feudal system. If someone who experienced this would like to elaborate, that would be great.

8) Many times you will see the citizen group threads moved into the RPG forum, instead of the Citizen Forum.

ice2k4.. this looks and sounds amazing.. you have my 120% support on this.. do you use any chat messangers? i only use msn for the moment.. perhaps we can get online and chat about this sometime.. I would definately like a hand in helping you design and run this rpg! :D
salutations,
Shattered

Excellent work, ice2k4. I like the city builder also. I'm going to look into that, might be interesting. I also might help with this if it flies. Probably in the administrative section, but maybe in the RP section also.

ice2k4.. this looks and sounds amazing.. you have my 120% support on this.. do you use any chat messangers? i only use msn for the moment.. perhaps we can get online and chat about this sometime.. I would definately like a hand in helping you design and run this rpg! :D
salutations,
Shattered

Sending a pm with my email and AIM handle.

looks good :)

Ice, it seems that if we want to RPG this game that religion is the first thing that could be used. Perhaps a citizens group for religious matters or something similar

I'm thinking we might go through with this. I want to talk to Shattered first through instant messaging, since he seems like he might give a nice deal of help. If everything goes as planned all pm the mods to request an rpg forum be made by Thunderfall.

I love this idea but im worrying about land manager (I'm not going to be that sucker). I saw what it was in the last dg rpg and it looks impossible to manage alone. We will need a better system to handle this. I think that the most important part will be getting a thread and a registery.

I love this idea but im worrying about land manager (I'm not going to be that sucker). I saw what it was in the last dg rpg and it looks impossible to manage alone. We will need a better system to handle this. I think that the most important part will be getting a thread and a registery.Land manager isn't that complicated. Basically they jsut auction off a couple of tiles every turnchat. I think you might be referring to land conflict, which I myself don't even fully understand. I'm not sure we'll be implementing that.

Don't they also have to keep track of all these things with the tiles or am I mistaking.

Well yeh, but it's quite simple. The value of a tile is already set by the amount of hammers food and commerce it produces.
I.e. 1 food = 3 gold per turn, 1 hammer = 3 gold per turn, 1 commerce - 5 gold per turn. A tile with 2 food 1 hammer and 1 commerce would therefore = 15 gold per turn. The land manager just makes one post with how much money everyone earns per turn (turn as in turnchat btw) and the banker edits the bank accounts according to that info.

Other than that the land manager just has to know which tiles have been already purchased.

Thanks for the clearifacation.

ice2k4..
could you explain in detail the combat system? I would me than happy to be the combat manager once I understand the system to a point. I would also be more than happy to hash out a land combat system, with other people's help of course!
Salutations,
Shattered

I'm not exactly sure if a dual type combat system was ever put in place. (Certainly wasn't last demogame.) If your referring to land conflict, where players controlled troops and what not, I never understood the system myself (since I never saw it in action, I just gathered what I could from the archives.) I'd like to get us a sub-forum to discuss rules and what not, I'm just waiting on a reply from a pm I sent daveshack.

Do you want to prepare advance material for a RPG forum and open it as already populated with stuff, or just make it open from the beginning? Also please plan your system so there isn't a lot of one-liner spam type material. :)

I guess just make it open from the beginning, since the only thing I need to post in it is the ruleset and character registry.

Some things are still to be decided upon, but here is what the ruleset will most likely be. Notice I did not include land conflict, and will not be including land conflict unless someone volunteers to manage it (as well as explain it a bit better.)

An Overview of the Democracy Game: Role Play & Games

Section 1 - Creating a Character
Upon entering the RPG each person is allowed to create a character. At the moment we only allow one character per person. In your character's registration post you should include the following:
Name: We prefer (although do not require) that you use a name somewhat similar to your forum name.
Age: Age of your character
Gender: Gender of character
Biography: Optional. A short biography of your character.
Physical Appearance: Optional. A short description of your character's physical appearance. Or maybe even an image.

Stats: Stat system will be worked out soon. Stats will be sued to determine tournaments and other things.

Also please do not kill another person's character in an rpg thread without their permission.

Section 2 - Economy
The RPG has a unique, yet "loose" economy. Here are the rules:

Start-Up
Upon joining the RPG each person receives 500 gold, thereon each player receives 50 gold per turn chat, extra revenue can be gained by businesses, revenue from land etc.

Bank
All character's accounts are kept in the bank. Salaries are added to all accounts after each turn chat. All transactions must be posted at the bank with a link to the transaction post or a copy of the PM/email where the transaction occurred. Only one party of the transaction should make the transaction post, to avoid confusion. If the transaction is made at a business, the business owner will post the transaction. All amounts are rounded to the nearest whole number. Private transactions should be posted immediately. Businesses may hold their transactions until the day of the next turn chat and post them all at once.

Businesses
These are business threads run by a Manager (or an Assistant) that sell goods at the official market price (as set or authorized by a Manager). They record all transactions to the bank at each turn chat. They do not record profits.

Business Start Up Cost
The first business a person creates is free, however after the first business, the person must pay a standard start-up fee.

Supplier Companies - 750 Gold. Supplier companies supply small businesses with certain items, such as timber.
Manufacturing Companies - 500 Gold. Manufacturing Companies are supplied with materials such as timber, and manufacture them into a product, such as furniture.
Reseller Companies - 350 Gold. Resellers are stocked with manufactured goods such as furniture, and sell them to the general public.
Service Companies - 350 Gold. Service companies do not deal with goods, but provide citizens with a service.

If a citizen desires to create a business or corporation, which fits into more than one of the categories, they must average the start up cost. Such as a timber supplying company that also wishes to manufacture furniture, would cost 625 gold ((750+500)/2)

Place of Business Cost
In addition to the Standard Start-Up fees, a place of business is needed. This means a building is needed as well as a piece of land. Buildings can either be built by the government at the prices below, or built by a construction company. Business can be either placed in the city for free, or can be placed on a tile, purchased by a citizen which you rent from, or simply purchased by you.

Standard Business Building - 125 Gold (1 Service Business or Reseller Business)
Factory - 300 Gold (1 Manufacturing Business or Supplier Business)

Taxation
Each business is taxed on their profits each turnchat. The taxes generally represent the cost of supplies (if not already supplied by another company.) If the business is already purchasing supplies from another company, the tax is halved.

Supplier Companies - 20% per turnchat.
Manufacturing Companies - 15% per turnchat. 7.5% is being supplied by a Supplier Company.
Reseller Companies - 10% per turnchat. 5% if being stocked by a Manufacturing Company.
Service Companies - 5% per turnchat.

Technology Restrictions
The technology of items sold can be no more advanced than one tech above our current knowledge in the actual Civ4 game.
Example: If we have Bronze Working then Iron Working is one advance away. Items dependent on Iron Working (sword, metal armour, etc) could be legally sold.

Selling the shop
Businesses can be sold or liquidated. When liquidated, 50% of the Place of Business costs are returned to the seller. If sold to another private owner the price is negotiated. The buyer will then need to pay normal legal start-up fees but will not have any Place of Business expenses.


Section 3 - Land Management
Every turnchat the Office of Land Management will list 5 in-game tiles that will be up for auction. Not only do these tiles provide a place for buildings or houses, they also give you extra income.

Tile Benefits
Each turnchat the owner of each tile will earn gold. The amount of gold is determined by the following:
Base income: 10 gold
For every :hammers: - 3 gold is added to the base income
For every :food: - 3 gold is added to the base income
For every :commerce: - 5 gold is added to the base income

Tile Costs
The starting bid for each tile will be determined by the following:
Base tile cost 50 gold
For every :hammers: - 30 gold is added to the base cost
For every :food: - 30 gold is added to the base cost
For every :commerce: - 50 gold is added to the base cost

Selling
Private property can be sold to any other citizens for any amount both citizens agree to. Both parties must PM the Land Manager at least 2 days before the next turnchat for the transfer to become finalized, otherwise it might not be recognized until the following week.

Foreign Control
Any tile that falls under foreign control will automatically revert back to no ownership. All buildings on the tile will be considered destroyed. If the tile is re-gained, then it is placed on sale again. Tiles that no longer lie in our borders, but do not fall under foreign control will no longer produce the virtue point benefits. However, the owner will keep possession of the tile. Buildings will remain on the tile but may require a refurbishing cost depending upon type of building and length of the loss.

Absence
If any citizen has not posted at CFC for over four weeks and has not posted in any absence thread, the Land Manager may buy back any land at current purchase price. This land may be re-sold to other citizens

What if you own a tile and have a buisness what would happen when there is an improvement.

By improvement I think you mean in-game, such as a plantation being built. Then your income would change based on the improvement. So if you own a tile with 3 food and 1 hammer, and with a farm it gains 2 food, you now earn 5 food and 1 hammer worth of gold.

I always thought that the businesses in DG2 were mostly useless. The ones that were most profitable were home-building and non-RPG based services (like Shaitan's old law firm or donsig's newspaper). I would rather do away with the ones that provide goods altogether - that is, to sell items like swords or buildings in businesses run by the RPG management, in order to take gold out of the economy more efficiently and fairly.

Here's my reasoning: we certainly don't have the resources to run a true MMORPG. Unlike most RPGs with shops, then, the items that are for sale are basically created out of nothing. In an RPG, if players can open shops, they can only sell items they've spent the time to collect. The items they sell, therefore, have a certain cost associated with them, which can be translated in gold on the open market. The key is that the sellers will always have a minimum price for their items - the price they feel best reimburses them for the trouble they went though the gain the items in question.

In our game, there's no cost associated with gaining items, which unless we implement some sort of complicated system, will be available in infinite amounts to shop owners. Therefore, if two people go into competition by having two different shops that sell the same good, they will either quickly go out of business after a price-cutting war, or all the shops will shrivel up into uselessness (as they essentially did in the first RPG).

We should let the management control the prices of items and abilities/strengths/improvements that they grant, so that the items sold can be useful ones for certain aspects of the game (like a tournament between players), making more powerful items more expensive, all the while acting to draw cash out of the accounts of the rich.

Overall, I doubt that people are interested in the economics of a potential RPG, which can get dull and complicated. It's all about the conflict - the battles, the conflict, the politics of feudal relationships and alliances, claiming nobility and honor! That's exciting, and that's what people are most interested in, I bet. With an easy-to-follow land management and combat system, a lot more interest might be generated for an RPg.

This proposal looks good, but I think it needs more work before we throw it together with an RPG. Octavian X is right one several accounts.
In our game, there's no cost associated with gaining items, which unless we implement some sort of complicated system, will be available in infinite amounts to shop owners. Therefore, if two people go into competition by having two different shops that sell the same good, they will either quickly go out of business after a price-cutting war, or all the shops will shrivel up into uselessness (as they essentially did in the first RPG).
I think we need a overlord system. This is a system unto which the city tile would be the overlord tile. One to two citizens would control this tile in the rpg. What is does is control the economics of the outlying tiles. The overlord position represents a sort of Moderator for the rpg. Depending on roleplaying, participation, and other factors to be determined, a business will be ranked. The rank represents the number of NPC's that purchase your product or service during the time between turn-chats. The rank will decide how much money you've made and how much supplies you used up. The overlord tile will have a few base business's to get the PC's off their feet and into the game proper. This is just an idea of course, off the top of my head, and needs much much work. Yet, I believe it could coincide with the proposal above.

Overall, I doubt that people are interested in the economics of a potential RPG, which can get dull and complicated. It's all about the conflict - the battles, the conflict, the politics of feudal relationships and alliances, claiming nobility and honor! That's exciting, and that's what people are most interested in, I bet. With an easy-to-follow land management and combat system, a lot more interest might be generated for an RPg.
I have been thinking of combat system for both individual fights and territorial combat. Individual combat will have a stat system with it, as stated above. It will have the combat manager, or combat judge. Depending on stats, roleplaying, creativity, and other factors, the "judge" will decide the outcome of the said combat.
As for land combat, I'm still trying to think of a viable way to do it fairly. Now, I am an old DnDer. I spent my highschool years rolling that d20. The thing I'm not used to is trying to set up a system involving mass battles of different soldiers without having some probability system. Sure, we could use moderator judgement, but that could lead to conflict in the RPG when it involves loss of business and land. Someone please give me some ideas, and I will try to hash out something that will work

Salutations,
Shattered

I don't get the technology restrictions... Wouldn't it be simpler to make them the same as our tech level?

I'd have to agree with Octavian, the economy you're thinking of is way too complicated.

The economy really isn't that complicated, and unlike the last demogame, there was no exchange of items. With a chain of business, things are more appealing, and manufactured items can be utilized, as long as we have stuff to utilize them in. I.e. swords in tournaments. Last demogame lacked any real events to make products for. If people don't just make business that have no real worth, than there not going to make much, but if they play it smart and build business where there is a need, then businesses can be fun. I'm not proposing we have some diverse economic system where we actually keep track of materials gathered and what not. I'm proposing something fairly simple.

It's desirable for a reseller to buy from a manufacturer because it can significantly cut their taxes. It is desirable for a manufacturer to buy from a supplier, because it significantly cuts their taxes. It's desirable to be a supplier, because of the two previous conditions. If there's no supplier or manufacturer that sells what you need, then you simply assume you buy it from the government, and therefore have higher taxes.

Now all you need is the consumer. There are quite a few things that can be desirable to the consumer as long as we make them desirable. Weapons, Armor, even medicine can all be desirable if we have combat systems, such as tournaments, or even if we require a more strict rpg, where you cant use it in an rpg if you don't have it, and it is available to the economy, such as using a sword, and one business sells swords (if it's not available, then you can have it, if it's reasonable.) Other things that are desirable are buildings (for obvious reasons), food and drinks (food and beverage business could require drinks are bought for every x posts, or some other rule.) As for services, training certain skills (for tournaments and other things that use the skills in the character registry), law services, gambling, sports league (possibly, Ive seen it before), spa type services (could act as a hang out like food and beverage, could require a purchase for every x posts.)

Those are just some examples I thought off the top of my head. Really the more obvious ones.

As for conflict (land conflict as well as personal conflict) , I'm not good with this and I wouldn't mind if someone explained the land conflict system. If anyone has any ideas for either type of conflicts, they would be warmly welcomed. Maybe having those royalty lines would be quite fun, but as no one has ever explained them to me, I can't really comment.

I don't get the technology restrictions... Wouldn't it be simpler to make them the same as our tech level?
Basically if it's researchable (without queuing a tech before it) then it's allowed. This is to make sure the early game isn't too boring, where there isn't much to buy/sell due to tech restrictions.

Now that there is a separate forum, I'm considering opening up an organized rpg, those who don't want to participate in the economy, simply do not have to.

A citizen group to start an organized rpg can be found here. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=5292651#post5292651)