I ll swap with Merum since I am free this week I can play sooner than him. But first lets take a look at the save:)

Oh, how I'd love to be able to do that! :lol:
I found my CiV vanilla, but no sign of warlords... what the?? That'll teach me for cleaning my desk!

OK, so the plan going forward is similar to the last turnset... but I have a question about giving away our cities: Are we doing it too fast - should we put up some resistance and slow him down a bit, or just let him take whatever he comes near?

Also, where are we putting the new capital... or should we just take pot luck? :devil:

TS completed. Unfortunetly i forgot to took my notes after turn 5 so I ll just summrize what happened.
I extended the turnset to finish off Brennus as you guessed if you regularly participating SG s with me:).


Summary:
At start i followed the suggestions of yours made trade with Mehmed whipped everything in our old cities.
Gave away 5 workers to Gandhi. Most of new cities came out of revolt during the end of my turnset.
Gandhi razed Nigh Shia and captured Old Sarai and there is a GG in Nidaros. Brennus wasnt offered much resistance
to our forces so i feel we have too much troops.

My Suggestions for Future:

1- Disband our outdated oldest troops. They are too much for our economy.

2- We ll need to shut down the research until we re-establish our economy in new world. I thought i ve done it at turn 1, thats why we are still
researching RP. Sorry for that.

3- I recommend SE in new world since the farms are ready.

4- Last ships to new world are waiting in Nubian. Abandon all old cities. Ship new units to new lands and disband old units.


SAVE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/Fifth_Element_SG004_AD1619_01.CivWarlordsSave)

Turn 331 (1583 AD)
Nidaros begins: Frigate
Tech learned: Military Tradition
Nidaros finishes: Grenadier
Turfan grows: 6
Turfan finishes: Trebuchet
Nubian grows: 10
Samarqand finishes: Frigate
Beshbalik finishes: Frigate
Ning-hsia grows: 3
Ning-hsia finishes: Frigate
Durocortorum's borders expand
Knight loses to: Celtic Pikeman (0.60/6)

Turn 332 (1586 AD)
Nidaros begins: Grenadier
Turfan begins: Cavalry
Samarqand begins: Cavalry
Beshbalik begins: Frigate
Ning-hsia begins: Cavalry
Samarqand grows: 7
Gergovia's borders expand

Turn 333 (1589 AD)
Nidaros finishes: Grenadier
Turfan grows: 7

Turn 334 (1592 AD)
Nidaros begins: Cavalry
Nidaros grows: 6
Nidaros finishes: Cavalry
Birka's borders expand
Worker loses to: Indian Maceman (8.00/8)

Turn 335 (1595 AD)
Trebuchet loses to: Celtic Longbowman (0.96/6)
Grenadier promoted: Cover
Grenadier defeats (8.40/12): Celtic Longbowman
Grenadier promoted: Combat II
Grenadier defeats (10.32/12): Celtic Crossbowman
Grenadier promoted: Pinch
Grenadier defeats (7.32/12): Celtic Pikeman
Berserker defeats (8.00/8): Celtic Catapult
Grenadier promoted: Pinch
Grenadier defeats (10.44/12): Celtic Longbowman
Hinduism has spread: Tolosa
Captured Tolosa (Brennus)
Tolosa begins: Theatre
Frigate defeats (8.00/8): Celtic Caravel
Nidaros grows: 7
Birka finishes: Grenadier
Turfan grows: 6
Turfan finishes: Cavalry
Samarqand finishes: Cavalry
Ning-hsia grows: 4

Turn 336 (1598 AD)
Birka begins: Cavalry
Turfan begins: Cavalry
Samarqand begins: Cavalry
Nidaros begins: Cavalry
Samarqand grows: 5
Grenadier loses to: Celtic Trebuchet (0.32/4)

Turn 337 (1601 AD)
Berserker defeats (8.00/8): Celtic Trebuchet
Frigate defeats (5.92/8): Celtic Caravel
Frigate defeats (4.88/8): Celtic Caravel
Old Sarai begins: Cavalry
Old Sarai grows: 7
Old Sarai finishes: Cavalry
Turfan grows: 7
Nubian grows: 11
Worker loses to: Indian Catapult (5.00/5)
Musketman loses to: Celtic Trebuchet (1.36/4)

Turn 338 (1604 AD)
Trebuchet promoted: Barrage I
Trebuchet promoted: Barrage I
Trebuchet defeats (4.00/4): Celtic Longbowman
Trebuchet promoted: Barrage I
Trebuchet defeats (0.96/4): Celtic War Elephant
Pikeman promoted: Combat II
Berserker promoted: Combat II
Horse Archer promoted: Formation
Trebuchet promoted: Barrage I
Trebuchet defeats (1.12/4): Celtic Pikeman
Berserker defeats (6.72/8): Celtic Longbowman
Hinduism has spread: Isca
Captured Isca (Brennus)
Isca begins: Theatre
Nidaros finishes: Cavalry
Durocortorum grows: 5
Berserker defeats (5.28/8): Celtic Trebuchet
Trebuchet loses to: Celtic War Elephant (6.96/8)

Turn 339 (1607 AD)
Nidaros begins: Cavalry
Grenadier promoted: Pinch
Pikeman defeats (4.20/6): Celtic War Elephant
Trebuchet promoted: Barrage I
Trebuchet loses to: Celtic Longbowman (6.00/6)
Trebuchet promoted: Barrage I
Trebuchet loses to: Celtic Longbowman (6.00/6)
Trebuchet promoted: Barrage I
Trebuchet loses to: Celtic Longbowman (2.40/6)
Grenadier defeats (8.64/12): Celtic Longbowman
Trebuchet defeats (2.64/4): Celtic Musketman
Berserker promoted: City Raider II
Berserker defeats (6.48/8): Celtic Longbowman
Grenadier promoted: Combat II
Grenadier defeats (10.32/12): Celtic Pikeman
Grenadier defeats (12.00/12): Celtic Longbowman
Hinduism has spread: Vienne
Buddhism has spread: Vienne
Captured Vienne (Brennus)
Vienne begins: Courthouse
Grenadier defeats (7.08/12): Celtic Crossbowman
Samarqand grows: 6
Grenadier defeats (10.56/12): Celtic Catapult

Turn 340 (1610 AD)
Durnovaria's borders expand
Karakorum finishes: Taoist Temple
Spearman loses to: Indian Grenadier (10.20/12)
Old Sarai lost

Turn 341 (1613 AD)
Karakorum begins: Trebuchet
Nidaros grows: 5
Nidaros finishes: Cavalry
Verlamion's borders expand

Turn 342 (1616 AD)
Nidaros begins: Cavalry
Berserker defeats (4.48/8): Indian Grenadier
Berserker loses to: Indian Musketman (5.94/9)
Ning-hsia lost
Longbowman loses to: Indian Grenadier (5.88/12)

Turn 343 (1619 AD)
Trebuchet loses to: Celtic Longbowman (5.22/6)
Trebuchet loses to: Celtic Longbowman (3.18/6)
Trebuchet promoted: Barrage I
Trebuchet loses to: Celtic Longbowman (5.52/6)
Trebuchet promoted: Barrage I
Grenadier loses to: Celtic Longbowman (4.20/6)
Grenadier promoted: Cover
Charlemagne (Great General) born in Nidaros
Grenadier defeats (5.16/12): Celtic Musketman
Berserker promoted: Cover
Berserker loses to: Celtic Longbowman (1.98/6)
Knight defeats (6.20/10): Celtic Longbowman
Grenadier defeats (5.52/12): Celtic Maceman
Knight defeats (1.00/10): Celtic Maceman
Grenadier defeats (6.36/12): Celtic Longbowman
Grenadier promoted: Cover
Grenadier defeats (8.16/12): Celtic Gallic Warrior
Grenadier defeats (8.64/12): Celtic Crossbowman
Berserker defeats (7.68/8): Celtic Longbowman
Pikeman defeats (4.20/6): Celtic Trebuchet
Hinduism has spread: Camulodunum
Captured Camulodunum (Brennus)
Celtic Empire eliminated
Camulodunum begins: Courthouse


Roster:
Merum (up)
Sansman
Sweetacshon
Blubmuz
Civicide
BrianS
Doom Train

Whatever happened to screenshots and the like....?

Righto lets keep it moving. Merum is still AWOL, and Sans hasn't posted since the 15th (although has been onsite), so if neither of them post a gotit within 24hrsish, I will grab it.

To the game, I haven't looked yet, but we should be selective about disbanding... we have now dropped off in tech, so will need a pantload of units for defence. I'm all for the SE.

Good job, Doom!
just... why do we fought against indians? the plan was run away when we see indian troops. IMO the only battles can be naval.

At this point, the sooner he takes our homeland, the better for our economy.

Do we use the GG for an old unit to save upgrade costs or for MA in former Celtia?
Sorry i don't catch it: SE???

Yes Sweeta, grab it, Merum should have problems and Sans is MIA, 2 weeks without a post is a bit much...

Goals: rebuild our economy, try to trade something, be quiet.

Hi all

First I have been watch this thread everyday and do not consider myself MIA. I know I do not really post much and it is only because I do not have much more to say. I did not realize that I should have pickup the save since Merum did not. I can grab tonight and probably play 4-6 turns tonight and the rest tomorrow. I apologized to the team if you expect me to comment more frequently I promise to do that from now on.

Beginners Guide to SE (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=197818)


why do we fought against indians?
I thought they would go for Birka which I ve abandoned but they attacked cities and units (which are heading for new world) along the way.

Guys I'm sorry but I have to go on perma-skip for a while, probably a week, maybe a little more.

Sorry bout this, but real life is what it is. I'll check in on the thread when I can.

PS: I think war with hannibal will get us killed pretty quick.

Guys I'm sorry but I have to go on perma-skip for a while, probably a week, maybe a little more.

Sorry bout this, but real life is what it is. I'll check in on the thread when I can.

PS: I think war with hannibal will get us killed pretty quick.

No problems, we understand your RL situ
Hanni... imo we should just keep an eye out for opportunities, and not attack just because we feel like it. Our position gets more precarious as tech/time moves forward, so let's be carefull.

The priorities should be building the new basic infrastructure and trying to get a Hanni/ Mehmed war, while setting up a naval defencive line fo G and H.

Alright, understood SE... thanks DT.

Sorry Sans, but we agreed about a post every 3 days, to let the team know we're alive.
Of course if the days are 4 or 5 is not important, but 2 weeks are a long time.
You don't have to write a long post, a "hi guys, i agree with your plans" is sufficient (i do this sometime, when i'm busy).

Or, if you think to be busy, just tell (like Merum did).

Anyway, you're up now, not much to do, focus on the MM of the cities, build courthouses, libraries and markets, and try to avoid to loose troopsduring the migration.

We have to decide how to use the GG: but we can migrate him too, and decide later... just don't forget to migrate an old unit (axe, or some) if we decide to use him as a warlord.
A good escort for our galleons goes without saying.

got it..................

I think I'd prefer a super medic with the GG instead of an academy, but I am not to sure of the capacities of the new cities yet, so maybe just transport him for now... unless anyone has some good ideas about him?

I have started playing and I have a question. Seeing as how bad our economy is I am thinking that whipping the palace here may not be such a bad idea.

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u32/The_Sansman/SGOTM-04/Civ4ScreenShot0002-3.jpg

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u32/The_Sansman/SGOTM-04/Civ4ScreenShot0004-2.jpg

I know that it is not central but Gandhi is sending troop to our northern two cities so I will evacuating them soon. I also know Gandhi will probably take his time to get the southern ones. But I would really hate to starve the pop out of that city since we can get a hammer heavy building out of it so easily. Any advice anyone?

Checking the save now... (I forgot to d/l the patch and mod, so it's taking a while - *sigh*)

If Bibracte is central relatively to Celtia we can do it, this way will avoid it comes in a bad position (city); my only doubt is about the production: i can't see from the SS if there is some more in the non-expanded fatcross.

But: for now build the Palace in Celtia probably doesn't help much, we got a lot of cities in our homeland.
If we don't plan to fight other conquests, we can build a FP in the west side of Celtia, and when we'll loose Nidaros build the Palace in the east side.

Using the GG as a super-healer can be good (of course joining to a old unit) we'll loose the HE too, and we can rebuild it in Celtia.
Comments?

Edit: after posted this, i discovered Alan finally opened the spoiler until 1000 AD (i asked again yesterday).
if you agree i'll write a plan, short chronicle of our game, then my comments about the map.

The city is kinda central on the northern Coast line. I would have preferred it to be more central to all the cities that we are keeping, but it is not. I really think I should whip the palace but I want more of a team answer before I play in ~9hours. I think population loss that will occur will be wasted if we do not whip something big there.

Unfortunately I'm traveling and can't bring up the game. Looking solely at Bibracte, it's an okay city except for lack of production. Are we still in Bureaucracy? If so,will we be there for a while? If so, it might make sense to build the FP in Bibracte and use a stronger city site for the Palace.

Sorry if this is too late to be useful. I've been on the road this week.

deleted the previous post, now i can write with the save opened.

Well, a city size 23 is impossible, and the production can come from:
- mined 2 hills (destroy windmills)
- workshops 2 farmed grasslands
- there's a whale in the FC, already hooked
the food is enough for a good city, plus there's a lot of mature cottages (towns).
so, with this pop, we can whip the Palace ASA.

we can avoid FP, our new land is small enough and i don't think Gandhi will wait much to take our homeland... just why does he razes good cities? ... stupid AI.

Have you noticed? Hanni has SAM infantry, no less, so Artillery/Rocketry and probably he's building the Apollo.

Our GNP is -56 bankrupt is at the door.
Gandhi's GNP is not good, Hanni is too well positioned and too advanced... i'm afraid i was right in my post #206

Useless to say, let's evacuate ASAP our homeland and bring our troops inside the cities, to avoid maintenance costs.

I wrote our post for the first spoiler, please let me know if it's OK or you have some corrections.
Please control my use of english too, remember i'm a poor, ignorant strangerJust a short story of the poor Viking empire, other empires drive the game.

We settled in place, researched all the workers techs and discover a nice neighbor in the south.
The land was poor, with some resources badly placed, and we had a debate for our 2nd and 3rd city.
Those cities were placed to grab gold, sharing pigs with Nidaros (2nd) and to grab jungle gems (3rd).
No debate for the 4th city, placed to grab the SW horses and sugar, nor for the 5th, placed to grab gold and corn right north of Karakorum.
Gandhi started early to threat our 2nd and 3rd cities, but we managed to push away his forces.
Few turns after our southern city was founded Gengis DoWed us, and some tactical mistake let him conquer that city, which auto-razed (it was still at size 1).
In the meantime our exploring work boat met Hannibal, Washington, Izzy, Mehmed and Brennnus, in this sequence, and gained us the circumnavigation bonus.
We signed OB with all those AIs, and we had some good tech trading with most of them.

Gandhi was never a serious threat, and luckily Gengis lacks metals, so he cannot benefit of his aggressive trait.
After the conquest of a city placed near marble and gems, and another right west of Karakorum, we sued for peace for techs and money, of course planning a revenge.
We founded a city in a good spot north, to grab Iron, sheeps and corn, and around the end of the first mongolian war a barb city in the east coast, near the iron.
We had problems of production, of maintenance costs, one half of our land was buried in the jungle, the only good production city was Nidaros, and in future the northern city.

Our research was painful, our army just a bit less, when Gengis decided to DoW us a second time.
I can't see why, he never seriously attacked, nor he owned a good army.
To make it short, our army was good enough to keep him at bay, and Berserkers were on route, so we kicked him off the continent, vassalising him with one city in the island between the 2 continents.

When we discovered Gandhi lands (right before settle our 2nd city), our initial plan was to develop a good economy, then find a new homeland and migrate, being possibly the tech leaders.

Well, this spoiler has a 1000 AD deadline, so i can't talk about our migration.

But i have something to say about this map:
Again a resource-poor map, with tons of jungle.
In addiction a warmonger with a good land as neighbor, so we were forced to spend hammers and gold to fight instead of build structures, and a ton of workers to clean the damn jungle.
Not enough: an AI (Hannibal) with a wonderful land, well-positioned resources, and that NEVER fought a war (this is the RNG, not the map).
Wasn't the game objective enough?
Only this about Hannibal: he revolted to Free Market in 950 AD.
I don't know why he loosed the liberalism race to Gandhi, but this has to be matter for next spoiler.

I don't know if is the map only or the RNG that made our game so unpleasant, i play because i'm part of a team, be sure taht if this was a solo game i gave it away in 950 AD (or probably sooner).

My opinion is: OK, a game has to be challenging, but this one is definitely too much: how do we can stop Hannibal, with Berserkers against SAM Infantry?

I'd like to see other team comments, and Gyathaar toughts about the above.

Blubmuz, I think your spoiler is OK, but I don't think a discussion about the map quality, resource placement, etc, is appropriate for that thread. Better to save them for the post game discussion, IMO.

I also don't think we should haul our hosts across the coals too hard for dealing us a tough map.

I have to admit I have a really hard time with people complaining about stuff like this. After all, the GOTM staff do this for free, provide us with entertainment and support, and get nothing in return but our thanks. Given the price, our thanks is all they should ever receive, other than polite suggestions for improvement.

Consider the following points carefully:

What if everybody else simply beat the crap out of Hannibal? Maybe it's just us, and not the map or game design.
What if we simply had it tough because of Ghengis' DoW on us so early?
What if somebody points out that we still don't have a religion in 1619 AD although we've been running OR for centuries?

My point being that the team owns a significant number of mistakes and miscues all on our own. That's part of the game, so we deal with them.

Blub, I agree with you that the map is hard and stacked in Hannibal's favor, and the variant frankly isn't very much fun. However, maybe the game is really hard because we're simply not playing it very well. ;) Also, as I previously mentioned, I suspect that somebody (Hannibal, in this case) was positioned to out-tech Ghandi on purpose. It was our job to prevent that, and we simply haven't yet.

Besides, all the teams in this competition are playing the same map with the same settings, so what's the big deal? If it's too hard and it sucks to play it, then we should provide constructive feedback and suggestions for improvements, not just complaints. Open a thread for this specifically after the game closes.

In summary, leave the spoiler for stuff that happens in our game, and the map discussion for someplace else. That's my opinion.

Checking the save now...

Obviously a blatant lie ;) I had a few d/ling issues, and my weekend's been.. well... on a different planet, so I've been no help, sorry. The city looks ok for the palace (apart from it's prod'n), but the only point I wanted to bring up is using the palace as a cultural booster.. are any of the cities in danger of being overrun?

As for the spoiler, don't post it yet, we can do a little work on it, and maybe add a pic or 2. I don't think it's the place to air gripes, either, so I agree with Merum, keep the opinions for post game.

Thanks for your comments.
You're right, the GotM staff (then Gyathaar) do this for free, and we can only give them our thanks for their efforts.
But a good critic is needed for improvement, and perhaps the way i expose my opinions (which i think you share with me) is too hard. So, write the same things in a different way can let the message arrive, maybe in time for next SG if we post it in the next few days.
If you agree with this, please try to re-write my last rows.

Said "inter nos" Gyathaar design style needs some correction, he tends to be too much hard in his maps.

Back to the game, i often in my games choose to don't have a state religion, but of course i don't revolt to a religious civic (and we are running the most expensive one).
Also, we loose our gold/corn city for a stupid mistake (only 1 defender) and probably we could have tryed a chariot rush in the early game, to wipe Gengis... curious to see if someone did this.
And, yes can be only our game where Hanni is so advanced.

BLubmuz, Thanks for writing up the spoiler. You did a great job. I've made a couple very minor grammatical edits and also removed the sections that probably shouldn't be in the spoiler.

Just a short story of the poor Viking empire, which has relied on subtlety and finesse as other empires drive the game.

We settled in place, researched all the workers techs and discover a nice neighbor in the south.
The land was poor, with some resources badly placed, and we had a debate for our 2nd and 3rd city.
Those cities were placed to grab gold, sharing pigs with Nidaros (2nd) and to grab jungle gems (3rd).
No debate for the 4th city, placed to grab the SW horses and sugar, nor for the 5th, placed to grab gold and corn right north of Karakorum.

Gandhi started early to threat our 2nd and 3rd cities, but we managed to push away his forces.
Few turns after our southern city was founded Gengis DoWed us, and some tactical mistake let him conquer that city, which auto-razed (it was still at size 1).

In the meantime our exploring work boat met Hannibal, Washington, Izzy, Mehmed and Brennnus, in this sequence, and gained us the circumnavigation bonus.

We signed OB with all those AIs, and we had some good tech trading with most of them.

Gandhi was never a serious threat, and luckily Gengis lacks metals, so he cannot benefit of his aggressive trait.

After the conquest of a city placed near marble and gems, and another right west of Karakorum, we sued for peace for techs and money, of course planning a revenge.

We founded a city in a good spot north, to grab Iron, sheeps and corn, and around the end of the first mongolian war a barb city in the east coast, near the iron.

We had problems of production and of maintenance costs. One half of our land was buried in the jungle, the only good production city was Nidaros, and the northern city which had great potential but which was not yet fully manned.

Our research was painful, our army just a bit less, when Gengis decided to DoW us a second time.
I can't see why, he never seriously attacked, nor he owned a good army.

To make it short, our army was good enough to keep him at bay, and Berserkers were on route, so we kicked him off the continent, vassalising him with one city in the island between the 2 continents.

When we discovered Gandhi lands (right before settle our 2nd city), our initial plan was to develop a good economy, then find a new homeland and migrate, being possibly the tech leaders.

In the next spoiler, we can talk about how the migration worked out.

Thanks Brian for your correction (i'm proud, not much, indeed) and addictions.
You and the others are right, i'm bit too hard, and we talk about the resources-poor map in the first part of our spoiler.

To satisfy my criticism to Gyathaar, can we close the spoiler in this way?
(i reprise from your last row)

In the next spoiler, we can talk about how the migration worked out.
Some thoughts about this game and this map:
We all know that the scope of this game was tough, but we was definitely close to abandon it when Hannibal revolted to Free Market in 950 AD.
For sure he was in a favorable position, and probably the fact that in our game he never fought a war magnified his advantage. But we got some doubt about the balance of this map, especially given the scope of this SG.

Ok I have finished playing and Gandhi has taken/razed half of the cities on his continent. Basically at the beginning Brennus came with this deal:

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u32/The_Sansman/Civ4ScreenShot0000-1.jpg

I took it. Then I asked the team about placing the Palace on the new continent. BTW I do not think you can build a FP without the Palace. I could not access that building until after I have build the Palace. Genghis came with this:

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u32/The_Sansman/Civ4ScreenShot0006-1.jpg

Again I took the deal. As I left the world:

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u32/The_Sansman/Civ4ScreenShot0007-1.jpg

I have marked where the Great General is and the new Palace. I have also marked the two cities that Gandhi has troops moving to with "Maybe whip" I have been whipping the cities before Gandhi shows up to get the build done and have the extra troops. I do not have much else to add other then maybe we need to consider expanding into Spain as we prepare to harass Hannibal. I really do believe that if we grow large enough we can over power Hannibal by over producing him.

The Save.

I DL and opened the save: Sansman, what is that Brennus offering silk, he's gone and we got silk, now... i suppose you took an old SS.
Chemistry to Gengis for DR... uhm for Gandhi is better wipe him, so we have made this more difficult with this trade.

Roster:
Merum (up - if he can play)
Sweetacshon (on deck - or swap Merum if Australia is still on Earth)
Blubmuz
Civicide
BrianS
Doom Train
Sansman (resting)
--- just let me know if you can play in a reasonable time, otherwise i can grab it.

I agree with Sans: let's whip those cavalries, then we'll abandon our homeland, workers and every unit must migrate. Once the migration is completed, we must use our frigates to protect our coasts: not a single indian unit has to survive near former Celtia.

War with Spain: Izzy is friendly with Mehmed, the risk he join her is high: in addiction her cities are under cultural pressure.
If we can manage to take Madrid with its shrine it would be interesting, or extort some tech, but we can face a tough army... let's discuss this.

I took a look at the save last night, and I'm pretty sure we shouldn't plan on warring with anyone from here on out. We'll never catch up on techs and it will take some time before we get any real production out of our new world. Izzy and Mehmed are both annoyed with Hannibal. It would be great if we could get them to take him on. Otherwise, I think we just go with the turtle strategy and spies, spies, spies.

It's been a while since I played, but last time I checked, Izzy was Mehmed's vassal!!! Is this not still the case? I don't think we should war anymore either... just survive. I'd like to see either Meh/Iz attack Hanni, or viceversa, and if that's not enough, we can go a pillaging Carthage.

DR is a useless tech, so giving up chemistry was a bit much, but that said, Kahn is no threat to anyone, so not really an issue. (and he might help us fend off G with frigates)

Mehmed is currently at war with Washington. Next player should send a unit to check how it is going. It s good for us if he can elimate or cripple him because Wash is Hannis only friend.

I opened the save this morning, and the only vassal is Gengis.
I was distracted by the Brennus SS, and i had a short time, so probably i didn't noticed the war.

Anyway, i agree "we can't afford a war right now" probably we can DoW Hanni as a desperate move, after he completes the 5 SS parts.

To use spies we need:
communism
build SY
build spies
money yo use them

Bribe someone against him... what do we have to offer? a world map???

Don't forget he soon will have tanks, marines and destroyers, but artillery and infantry is enough to wipe us.

Let's try to survive, and hope :cry:

@Sweeta: if Merum gives no sign in the next 12 hours, please grab the save and do your best.

Have you seen my post with the end for the spoiler (#274)? is it OK? otherwise, corrections are welcome
I'd like to publish it soon, after i requested the spoiler thread...

Yeah, I'll grab it tomorrow if there's no Merum.

At first I thought saying Hanni didn't war was spoilerish... then I realised I was a tired fool. It seems fine to me.

Sweets: Please go ahead and play for me based on my auto-skip.

PS: Are we just determined to play the entire game without a religion, at this point? :mischief:

about Merum's question:
I think we are close enough to free religion, and the only useful religion would be Hindu (all former celtic cities are) options:
1-revolt to Hindu, but can we afford to be hated for a different religion?
2-just wait for liberalism?
3-waiting for liberalism and revolt to paganism to save money?

for sure i don't vote for 1, but i'm undecided between 2 and 3.

I vote for 3. There is no guarantee that we ll get Liberalism soon...

BLubmuz -- I think your revised ending is fine. Go ahead and post it.

I've gone entire games before without a religion. Usually when I'm going for early liberalism. It keeps me out of the religious wars. Since we really can't afford to piss anyone off, it's probably a good strategy here.

OK, playing now. 3 it is, I think.

Crap!!! I can play warlords just fine, but loading the HoF mod causes a runtime error.. wtf?? :( There's something extremely wierd going on, and I haven't got it sorted... very very sorry people, but it looks like I can't play right now. [pissed]

If the next person wants to grab it before I can get it sorted, go ahead. I suggest if we're running a SE, get a GE next for SY. Also I agree with the religion points.

Crap!!! I can play warlords just fine, but loading the HoF mod causes a runtime error.. wtf?? :( There's something extremely wierd going on, and I haven't got it sorted... very very sorry people, but it looks like I can't play right now. [pissed]

If the next person wants to grab it before I can get it sorted, go ahead. I suggest if we're running a SE, get a GE next for SY. Also I agree with the religion points.
Usually when there is a runtime error when loading HOF mod, it is due to not having warlords patched to 2.08 .. but that should not be an issue unless you just reinstalled?

Hi all


BLubmuz I think you spoiler is fine.:goodjob:
The Brennus trade Screen shot I admit I thought it was funny when I posted it. Unfortunately I did not have the time to look into it. I will check tonight to see just how stupid I am.:blush:
The tech trade I did with Genghis follows this line of logical can we not get him to research stuff and get it from him. He is so weak at the moment that there is nothing he can do to hurt us. So I figured that we should try to get him to research some useful tech.
I agree with Option #3 regarding the religion.
Regarding the current war of Mehmed against Washington. I have another bad idea. Why don't we supply Mehmed with some troops to help him slaughter Washington. If Washington and Hannibal are friends would it not piss off Hannibal that Mehmed is attacking him? My hope is to drag Hannibal into a war with Mehmed and maybe we could help Mehmed by suppling some troops. I agree that a war with Hannibal is suicide, but I do not believe that we will have a choice in a few turn sets. I think that we agree if we can get both Mehmed and Izzy to Declare War on Hannibal that we may be able to knock him down. The only problem would be one of them may replace Hannibal as our main problem.:confused:
Anyways, just my current thoughts for the ongoing discussion.

Thanks Gyathaar, you really are omniscient! :clap: Yep, I could've swore I patched, but that must've been the 1.61 I did a day or 2 ago. Thanks.

OK, it's getting late here, perhaps I'll play in the morning now, but we'll see. I've got it regardless.

Edit:
Yep, I'll play in about 9 hrs. I had a quick look, and we're looking ok to survive, I think, but G has a few frigates, so the navy is a priority. As for Hanni, you're all right, we need to do something, and the timeframe shouldn't be more than 100 years or so. G will start to accellerate soon, but we need to help him along.

Perhaps Vienne would have been better for the palace just for the cultural pressure its under, but we'll just have to try and keep an eye on it.

If you look at the graphs, you can see the time that Izzy was Mehmed's vassal... but it is no longer the case. Anyway, if we want him to attack Hanni, we're going to have to end his war with Washo. Any ideas?

Techs - we're doing RP why? Ahh.. 'cause it was half done already! OK, so the beeline is to communism, but for that we need liberalism, and for that education... so we're a fair way off. 2 others we could slip in are rifling (but lets hope we n ever have to use them) and steel for ironclads and cannon.... I wish we had something to trade!

Civics -if we're going a SE, we need representation (need to get constitution), caste system (I'll do a round of whips in slavery first), mercantilism (may as well... not that much trade income), and pacificm (however, do you think the unit maint will be too high right now... perhaps wait on this until we've left the old continent?)

OK, so the plan is:
evacuate
bolster navy
MM cities for SE
change civics
scout Hanni to keep an eye on him

Anything else?

Pacifism works only with a religion, then it's not the case :crazyeye:

Mercantilism can be good, just try to see our income from the foreign trade routes, then try to figure our losses/benefits using more merchants.

Caste Sysytem yes, OK after a tour of whips.

Paganism OK for all, so do it.

Be care (i substitute this to my "good luck")

I was here to check new posts, and noticed you say "G. has frigates" if this is correct we're in trouble, perhaps combustion is a priority.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/Fifth_Element_SG004_AD1685_01.CivWarlordsSave


354
The preturn took an eternity as I MMed, left some signs (would appreciate comments about my decisions here), did a round of whipping in the old country as G approached, and renegotiated some resource trades for more cash. I was disappointed to see workers asleep in cities. If they are put to sleep, they should at least be outside and visible. Also Mehmed has sent a settler in, and I jacked the culture up, but I fear he'll find a spot. I don't think an attack is on the cards, tho. What else? That's it I think... enter...

What are you up to, Med??
http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/3443/civ4screenshot0000ks1.jpg

358
Mehmed asks us to cancel Wash trades. Considering we're trying to butter him up, OK. Could it be any plainer for G??

You idiot!:rolleyes:
http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/1080/civ4screenshot0002rd2.jpg

360
Mehmed back for war on Wash. I say no, but tempted for a phony war... it would make G closer to Washo and hence a trading partner.

http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/2682/60666606su7.jpg

362
Time to bug out, so it's one more round of whips and change to caste system, mercantilism (foreign income was just 9), and paganism. Now it's time to fatten up the cities and just try and stay alive.

Here comes the... I mean, there goes the cavalry
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/5628/civ4screenshot0004xw0.jpg

365
The anarchy is over. I haven't placed any specialists, really, as the cities need time to grow a little. The next player will need to MM every few moves while growth is strong, so that we can get the specialists set up.

I was going to play 15 turns, but I noticed that I had chosen steel for ironclads, but we also need steam for these. A bit :smoke: I fear, because getting education first would obviously speed research and bring us closer to liberalsim and communism. Also, ironclads are coastbound, so we won't see any of his. Anyway, we can discuss what to do... it's a LONG way to any tech, but when we can get more specialists going, it will speed up, and I'm pretty sure the next GS lightbulb will be education, so that is an option (As for the next GP being a GE, I reckon he'd just be sitting there for many turns, so a GS would be better).

We are out of the old lands, although we official still own 1 city there... it is empty and stupid G is pillaging... wtf. We will no doubt see some of his frigates soon, so try not to lose any of ours. It's probably a good idea to retreat from his frigates when we see them out at sea where ours are stationed and fight them closer to our shores... it is less effort to heal, and we'll get a coastal defencive bonus. There is one galleon with some frigates, as it can see 1 sq further than the rest, but all others are in port.

Mehmed took a beating from Washo, and I'm very tempted to send down a contingent of cav, gren, and treb, but should we just conserve our strength? What if he falls over? Then we have a 3 horse race, and it's much harder to influence. As I said, it'd also make G better friends, and hence more chance of tech trades and a speedy finish. Any, a couple of cavs are down having a look.

http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/857/civ4screenshot0005tn1.jpg
Ghandi is stepping it up
http://img473.imageshack.us/img473/7245/civ4screenshot0006gr4.jpg
This could be bad for us
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/1974/civ4screenshot0007pz1.jpg

----------------------------New entries----------------------------
Turn 354 (1652 AD)
Gergovia begins: Observatory
Isca begins: Granary
Camulodunum begins: Theatre
Camulodunum begins: Granary
Nubian begins: Frigate
Nubian begins: Explorer
Turfan begins: Grenadier
Verlamion begins: Library
Bibracte's borders expand
Bibracte finishes: Market
Turfan finishes: Cavalry
Nubian finishes: Trebuchet
Karakorum grows: 7
Karakorum finishes: Cavalry
Samarqand grows: 6
Samarqand finishes: Cavalry
Durocortorum grows: 7
Gergovia grows: 6
Tolosa's borders expand
Tolosa finishes: Theatre

Turn 355 (1655 AD)
Karakorum begins: Cavalry
Samarqand begins: Cavalry
Tolosa begins: Barracks
Bibracte begins: Granary
Bibracte begins: Observatory
Bibracte begins: Library
Bibracte begins: Granary
Bibracte begins: Observatory
Tech learned: Replaceable Parts
Durnovaria grows: 6
Bibracte grows: 12
Turfan grows: 10
Karakorum grows: 8
Camulodunum finishes: Theatre
Durocortorum finishes: Courthouse
Vienne finishes: Hindu Temple
Frigate defeats (4.80/8): Indian Frigate
Frigate loses to: Indian Frigate (8.00/8)

Turn 356 (1658 AD)
Research begun: Steel
Vienne begins: Granary
Vienne begins: Theatre
Durocortorum begins: Market
Frigate promoted: Combat I
Bibracte finishes: Observatory
Turfan finishes: Grenadier
Nubian grows: 11
Karakorum finishes: Cavalry
Camulodunum's borders expand
Tolosa finishes: Barracks
Isca finishes: Granary
Frigate defeats (6.40/8): Indian Frigate

Turn 357 (1661 AD)
Turfan begins: Cavalry
Karakorum begins: Cavalry
Tolosa begins: Heroic Epic
Frigate promoted: Combat II
Galleon promoted: Drill I
Galleon promoted: Flanking I
Galleon promoted: Flanking I
Galleon promoted: Flanking I
Galleon promoted: Sentry
Verlamion grows: 8
Turfan grows: 8
Nubian finishes: Frigate
Samarqand grows: 4
Samarqand finishes: Cavalry

Turn 358 (1664 AD)
Nubian begins: Frigate
Samarqand begins: Grenadier

Turn 359 (1667 AD)
Frigate defeats (1.28/8): Indian Frigate
Frigate promoted: Combat I
Cavalry promoted: Combat I
Bibracte finishes: Granary
Turfan grows: 6
Turfan finishes: Cavalry
Nubian grows: 9
Tolosa grows: 5
Samarqand lost
Taoism has spread: Samarqand (Indian Empire)

Turn 360 (1670 AD)
Turfan begins: Cavalry
Cavalry promoted: Combat I
Isca begins: Work Boat
Karakorum grows: 6
Vienne finishes: Granary
Turfan lost
Karakorum lost

Turn 361 (1673 AD)
Frigate promoted: Combat I
Frigate promoted: Combat II
Verlamion grows: 9
Nubian finishes: Frigate
Durocortorum grows: 6

Turn 362 (1676 AD)
Nubian begins: Frigate
Camulodunum begins: Library
Vienne begins: Barracks

Turn 363 (1679 AD)

Turn 364 (1682 AD)

Turn 365 (1685 AD)

Sorry, in my previous post i wrote frigates thinking to destroyers.

If we have not a possible GS in a reasonable time, to help Edu, i think that switch to that is almost mandatory.
Anyway we can build observatories, they have the same factor as universities, but not the culture boost.
In the order: libraries, markets, courthouses, grocers, obsevatories.

Merum is up, if he gives no sign i'll grab it (i'm next).
I can play tomorrow night (24 h from this post), so if he can grab it...

If we have not a possible GS in a reasonable time, to help Edu, i think that switch to that is almost mandatory.

In the order: libraries, markets, courthouses, grocers, obsevatories.


The highest GP amt is 150, and the next GP is due at 450, so if we put, say 3 scientists on, it's about 30 turns... but that doesn't include buildings and whatever wonder it is that we have that boosts GPpoints. I recall edu being 30 + turns, but thats before piling any specialists on. (Damn I wish we had representation - I set Kahn to research constitution, btw.. we'll nab it if he survives another 30 turns or so :)) So it's probably worth just completeing Steel and going for the GS - I haven't looked at the specifics of that yet...

Build Order: The thing about an SE is that you don't have all that much raw commerce coming in, and the specialists produce straight beakers or gold, so it seems to me futile to build a market in a city that is running scientists. Well, I am no expert at SEs, but that seems logical. Tell me if there any problems with that. I have labeled each city with what I thought would be a suitable specialisation, but it can be changed. I do agree that everywhere needs courts, and we should choose a FP site also. One problem I do see is no good coastal production city... extra frigates might be a problem - but I think we have 12-13 right now.

Sweeta, for what i know, SE is just a way to rely more on farms (specialists) than on cottages, of course running Caste system.
I used lot of specialist in my games when i got more than 1 food resource, but you cannot forget the buildings: If you're running merchants you magnify their output with markets, grocers and banks (we have to do this in the city where we have the hindu shrine), if you're running scientists you magnify their output with libraries, universities and observatories, and so on.
Of course, running representation this becomes extended, since every specialist produces 3 more beakers.
This is in addiction to the gold your city produces, that goes into research and into cash.

Thus we need all the financial and science buildings, and perhaps if Constitution is due in a reasonable time is better switch to that and then revolt ASAP.

But first of all we need forges, to speed-up the those buildings.
And harbours in the coastal cities to increase the gold from trade routes (which is increased by markets and libraries).

BTW when i asked to check the income from our foreign trades, i wasn't meaning the foreign income, but the one from the trade routes (you can check it in the F4/info, the number that appears before the civics - now we're running mercantilism, then it's 0 for all the civs, or in the city screen where you can see the income from the TR).

The above are the basis of a good civ player, the economy is the key in this game (Sid is American after all).

Thus we need all the financial and science buildings, and perhaps if Constitution is due in a reasonable time is better switch to that and then revolt ASAP.
No, that's what I mean. If you never plan to run merchants in a particular city, it would be futile, or at least inefficient to build a bank, etc, as the actual gold getting the 50% bonus is minimal. The same (opposite) applies for scientists.

But first of all we need forges, to speed-up the those buildings.
And harbours in the coastal cities to increase the gold from trade routes (which is increased by markets and libraries).

No need for harbours right now, as we are in Merc, so only domestic trade routes. The bonii from gold or science buildings should outwigh the extra few commerce of the +50% TR from harbour.

BTW when i asked to check the income from our foreign trades, i wasn't meaning the foreign income, but the one from the trade routes (you can check it in the F4/info, the number that appears before the civics - now we're running mercantilism, then it's 0 for all the civs, or in the city screen where you can see the income from the TR).


Umm.. I'm not quite sure what you mean here, Blub?? We still receive our gpt from trades, eg spice for 5gpt, but no trade on the city screens from TRs because of merc, which was only 9, iirc.

OK, Sweeta so is a question of priorities: cities running merchants will privilege financial buildings, cities running scientist science buildings.

About TR, i'll give an answer about our situation after opening the save.

What about the Constitution thing?

I suppose we have to decide what is most important. Steel, then steam for cannon, ironclad and all that, constitution for representation, or education for the communism line.

We have a litle time up our sleeve for the need for spies, and for that matter ironclads, which can't reach out shore, so constitution would seem the obvious choice... especially considering lack of beaker options.

Perhaps get Kahn to research something other than edu, steel, or const??

What about the Mehmed/ Washo war?

Sweeta, is a 2 members team?
It seems to be... i'm gonna play now, let's go for constitution.
War? let them fight, we'll wait and see.

:) No, it's not a 2 member team, just kind of hanging back when it's not my TS. Not much to add here, just that the SE seems the way to go, and we need to be focusing on getting our economy back on track.

I vote we switch to Education research; steel is a low priority, as cannons won't really help us much in any potential war we start (except in sufficient volume to take a city). Ironclads aren't really a huge priority either from my book; I don't see us having that much problem defending the seas against Gandhi, and they are of no help offensively unless we get an OB path all the way to Hannibal.

For now I think we need to stay out of the Mehmed/Washington war, unless there is a clear winner about to emerge and we think we can get a few free cities while giving the winner diplo points with Gandhi. The war does help us a bit, in that it slows both players down, preventing either of them from eventually being a help to Hannibal, and helps to ensure that if we can slow Hannibal down, Gandhi would emerge as the winner first.

We really can't afford any wasted turns at this point; If we are to do any damage at all to Hannibal, we need to get over there before too long.

Civ it was just a joke, seen the last posts

Nothing special in my TS, highlights:
- Hanni completed Apollo in 1706
- Finally, with a bank in Bibracte, thanks to Bureau and the shrine, we're running research @ 50%
- Since Hanni never fought a war, and a GG is born in Carthage, i suppose he's first to Fascism
my notes:IT 365 - 1685 AD

Stupid Gandhi is waiting inspiration, pillaging in front of an empty city
Good job with the cities, Sweeta no MM needed
I got some boubt about the HE: would not be better build it in a coastal city?
Only some frigates moved, i'll play 15 turns
disbanded an archer
moved the GG in Verlamion, it's central

t 367
finally our last city in our (now former) homeland is gone
I switched a bank in Bibracte, we'll have 6 gpt from that
i suspended the HE for now we got other priorities
traded silk for dye with Izzy

t368
2 indian frigates are in our SW coast i wait

t369
sunk the 2 frigates, just some scratch in the paint, let's repaint them

t370
a frigate/galleon combo landed 3 grens near Camulodunum

t371
pillaged a lumbermill, 1 gren less, our silver is going to be pillaged, but i don't want risk
detroyed a frigate/caravel in our SE border

t372
gren, musket, WE landed another gren out, lost a HA a cavalry and a cat
Hanni completed Apollo

t373
dammit, lost a cavalry to a gren almost @80%
frigate/galleon gone

t374
the invading forces are rejected
the city where the HE was planned has no commerce, so, OK let it go

t378
another arriving frig/galleon sunken
finally... the bank in Bibracte let us research @50% with a small profit

t381
nothing, stopped I can't understand why we're still running a -10 GNP (my saved turn): we got not much cities, our Palace is in the middle of our "empire", we got some structures, our army is not a monster... bohhh
The autolog: Bibracte begins: Bank
Tolosa begins: Library
Research begun: Constitution
Durnovaria grows: 7
Verlamion finishes: Library
Bibracte grows: 9
Bibracte finishes: Library
Camulodunum finishes: Granary
Isca's borders expand
Isca finishes: Work Boat
Vienne finishes: Theatre

Turn 366 (1688 AD)
Bibracte begins: Bank
Isca begins: Library
Verlamion finishes: Theatre
Gergovia's borders expand
Vienne grows: 6
Vienne finishes: Barracks
Nubian lost

Turn 367 (1691 AD)
Verlamion begins: Forge
Vienne begins: Library
Isca grows: 6

Turn 368 (1694 AD)

Turn 369 (1697 AD)
Frigate defeats (6.48/8): Indian Frigate
Frigate defeats (6.48/8): Indian Frigate
Durnovaria grows: 8
Verlamion grows: 7
Vienne grows: 7

Turn 370 (1700 AD)
Frigate loses to: Indian Frigate (4.80/8)
Frigate defeats (3.92/8): Indian Frigate
Gergovia grows: 7
Tolosa grows: 6

Turn 371 (1703 AD)
Grenadier defeats (1.92/12): Indian Grenadier
Frigate defeats (1.60/8): Indian Frigate
Frigate defeats (5.92/8): Indian Caravel

Turn 372 (1706 AD)
Horse Archer loses to: Indian Grenadier (10.32/12)
Grenadier defeats (9.72/12): Indian Grenadier
Catapult loses to: Indian Grenadier (12.00/12)
Cavalry loses to: Indian Grenadier (10.20/12)
Tolosa finishes: Library
Vienne finishes: Library

Turn 373 (1709 AD)
Vienne begins: Catapult
Cavalry loses to: Indian Grenadier (3.72/12)
Grenadier defeats (10.80/12): Indian Grenadier
Frigate defeats (1.92/8): Indian Frigate
Frigate defeats (6.88/8): Indian Galleon
Durnovaria grows: 9
Camulodunum grows: 3
Durocortorum grows: 7

Turn 374 (1712 AD)
Cavalry defeats (9.60/15): Indian Grenadier
Pikeman defeats (6.00/6): Indian War Elephant
Grenadier defeats (10.20/12): Indian Musketman
Camulodunum begins: Trading Post
Durnovaria begins: Forge
Isca grows: 7

Turn 375 (1715 AD)

Turn 376 (1718 AD)
Bibracte finishes: Bank
Vienne grows: 8
Vienne finishes: Catapult

Turn 377 (1721 AD)
Bibracte begins: Courthouse
Bibracte begins: Theatre
Vienne begins: Buddhist Temple
Tolosa finishes: Heroic Epic

Turn 378 (1724 AD)
Tolosa begins: Market
Frigate defeats (0.40/8): Indian Frigate
Frigate defeats (8.00/8): Indian Galleon
Durnovaria grows: 10
Verlamion's borders expand
Vienne's borders expand

Turn 379 (1727 AD)
Bibracte grows: 10
Camulodunum's borders expand

Turn 380 (1730 AD)
Durocortorum finishes: Market
Isca finishes: Library

Turn 381 (1732 AD)
Durocortorum begins: Forge
and the save
nothing to add, but the roster:

Merum (up - if he can play)
Civicide (on deck - or swap Merum, let's wait a bit)
BrianS
Doom Train
Sansman
Sweetacshon
Blubmuz (resting)

OK,I have found that I forgot to clear my screen shot directory hence the old shot of Brennus sorry for the confusion. My excuse was I rushing to get the report out ASAP since I was behind in playing. Sorry guys for the mix up.

Nothing special in my TS, highlights:
- Hanni completed Apollo in 1706

And this is not something special? :o
We will need to get a move on to SY and spies. I will check the save later and give opinions then. Good to see lots of pops in the autolog. We really need the growth.

No need to apologise, Sansman... an explanation is good enough. :)

@Sansman
i suspected a thing like this, no problem

@Sweeta
i posted this on my #269Have you noticed? Hanni has SAM infantry, no less, so Artillery/Rocketry and probably he's building the Apollo.thus, no surprise.
The bad thing is that in my last turn, Gandhi was behind in tech (we excluded , of course) he lacks steel, and we're lightyears away from communism and the money needed to use spies.

Hanni is going to win the space race, and there's nothing we can do to stop him and survive, without spies.
I explain: if G. was 1 or 2 techs behind H. or with just some part to build, and we in a better situation, probably we could have used spies, or a war to delay H., it was a question of few turns. But in this situation, i can't see a way to resolve it.
Don't forget the remaining AIs, they are most advanced than G., and they can beat him, or at least Wash..

Sorry for my pessimism, but i think this is the sad reality :cry:

Well perhaps so.. we made many mistakes, but lets not get into that yet, let's just continue and see what can be done.

It looks like Civicide is up, and then Brian if no got in 24hrs.

Got it. I'll play tonight. Looks like it'll be a quiet TS, just city MM (which I admittedly suck at, but I'll do my best).

OK, turnset played. And as if things weren't bad enough already:

The almost-temptingly-good-news: Hannibal has finally started a war.

The crushingly bad news: It's against Gandhi. :suicide:

First turn of it, he took a Gandhi city on our old continent, one of the ones we gave him: Haithabu. Hanni has infantry and artillery, god knows what else, and Gandhi is likely overstretched in defense from all the cities we gave him. Hannibal is way ahead in tech and will probably roll through any of his cities at will.

Not much we can do, unfortunately. I say we take what troops we have, load up our galleons, and invade Hanni while he's distracted. Maybe we facilitate peace between the two (mutual military struggle), maybe we do some damage with pillaging. Might as well go down swinging. :backstab:

I fought off a fairly major Gandhi invasion force: Killed something like 5 frigates, 3 galleons, at the cost of 3 frigates, 1 galleon of our own. He pillaged a fishing boat, I'm rebuilding.

Hannibal built SS Casing x2, Washington built the Kremlin.

Representation is in, our econ is holding steady @50%. Education due in 12 turns. I've been building hindu temples when I've had nothing else obvious to build, as, since we have the Spiral Minaret now, an eventual revolt to Hinduism could give us some spare cash.

GP is due out of Bibracte in 5 turns. Muddled pool, best chance is for an engineer. If it is an eng, save for SY (assuming we get Communism before Hanni launches), otherwise I suppose we lightbulb.

Here there be saves (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/Fifth_Element_SG004_AD1762_01.CivWarlordsSave)

Civ, I guess I agree with the idea to go after Hannibal although we're likely to be slaughtered. My thought is to go back to our old world and try to help Gandhi there. Send some troops and try to intercept the ones that Hanni is sending. Does that make sense? Maybe we can do a sneak attack by finding a force enroute and declaring on Hanni the same turn as sinking (hopefully) the force.

I have the save and will probably start playing soon.

Edit: A couple more thoughts.

1. It will take 7 to 8 turns for our frigates to even get to the likely communication route between Carthage and New India. By then, Hanni will probably have a significant force already in new India.

2. Washington is pleased with us but won't even speak to us. That's ominous.

3. Mehmed has a Frigate and Galleon parked outside one of our cites that is defended (laughably) by 2 Berserkers.

I have discovered the meaning of bleak. I'm going to hold off a bit more before playing to see if anyone has any better ideas.

I'm back!

I can slip into the rotation after Brian.

Maybe Hannibal declared on Ghandi because Ghandi has aluminum, and Hannibal doesn't? Either way, we're basically screwed. We're too far behind in tech to hurt Hannibal, Ghandi never even bothered to re-develop the gold mines around Eureka that he stupidly razed, and Hannibal is going to steamroll him.

I'm still in favor of sticking it out until the bitter end rather than not finishing, but that this point there's not a whole lot to do other than clicking the little red button a hundred times or so, I fear.

Bummer. This variant I'm not liking so much. :( It's evident that the AI is far too stupid to play well enough to capitalize even on serious advantages that are just handed to it.

I'd like to see the next game do something different, like using the mastery victory by Sevo, and basing it on the max score. That would take the speed factor out of the game and force the teams to focus on an all-around victory.

Hmm looks like this is the end of SGOTM 4 for us. As Merum said ``this point there's not a whole lot to do other than clicking the little red button a hundred times or so`` so i suggest we retire.

But I ll stick with the team decision...

I think this would have been more interesting using Blakes Better AI variant. While not perfect, his AI is a whole lot smarter.

Unfortunately i was good prophet...
I think the only thing we can try to slow-down Hanni is attack his homeland, pillaging and perhaps conquering his holy city.
Probably he's trying to acquire some resource, but he got the power to fight the war and to build SS parts.
When we'll eventually arrive in our former homeland it will be too late.
To do this we'll be an easy target for Izzy and Mehmed.

The other option are: hit enter until Hanni launches or retire.
Wash. refuses to talk 'cause we accepted Mehmed invitation to stop trading with him... usually i refuse those invitations, unless the "target" is annoyed.

It will be interesting to see how the winning team won this variant (assuming someone wins it).

In hindsight, I think we waited too long to go after Brennus. You can't just abandon one country and build up another at the same time. One of the things we're suffering from is that we are having to (re)build basic buildings in our new world which were destroyed when we took the cities. In the meantime, our economy sucks.

It seems like it was not that long ago that we were in the tech race, and all of a sudden we're hopelessly behind.

You are right about our tech problem... we assumed we could just turtle, and Ghandi would actually do something, but instead, he was a damn fool. But our mistakes were made far earlier in the game, imho.

Anyway, I agree, let's have a stab at Hanni... he will win the space race if we don't have very good luck, so we may as well.

I looked at the save and have to agree that this game is probably in the toilet:(, pretty much like most of my games at prince or higher. Since I am too stupid to know any better I am curious just how bad this will end. So I think at this point we need to either attack Hannibal directly, or prepare to attack:ar15:. I do not think we will survive long but who knows.

The Save...Such as it is (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/Fifth_Element_SG004_AD1782_01.CivWarlordsSave)

This was a tremendously successful turnset. I met all my goal. Indeed my only goal was to survive, but I must say that I succeeded brilliantly.

It was in fact a pretty boring turnset. I loaded up our ships with our brave, suicidal fighters and sent them south to meet their fate in Carthage. We now have one fleet having arrived just to the south of Carthage, and another on its way from the north. The northern fleet should arrive in a couple of turns, at which point let the battle commence.

I leave the mere fighting of the battle to General Merum who I have no doubt will lead our troops to victory...or death, as the case may be. I don't see how you can lose this one Merum. The odds are completely stacked in your favor -- or do I have that backwards? Anyway, I'm sure you'll do just fine.

Here's a quick glimpse of the southern picture:

http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/2798/404uhohvi8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I agree, the game is lost, and i don't think our stack will survive after the landing (we can maybe keep the amphibious units in the galleons).
Anyway, we'll have some fun in the fight, at least.

Any actual battle plans? Pillage this, attack that, etc? Perhaps attack up at G's end, just in case he has units close enough to do some damage himself? Attack at our end in the hope that it diverts H's attention? Aim for cottages? Just hole up on a forested hill and kill whatever comes near? Gift all the units to G? Frankly, I have no idea, and am not sure it would matter if I did. :crazyeye:

lol we are so f*ed. Can I just highlight the stack and hit the delete key, and then we can all go home?

I suppose what I'll do is look for aluminum (oh wait we don't have the tech to see aluminum) oil and try to pillage it until Hannibal's Cavalry ride out and pwn the stack. That ought to delay his spaceship win by 3 turns or so...

Bah, strategy is for winners. I'm just going to wing it. :P

How quaint, Sweeta wants a battle plan. My thought was to try to get the troops to the holy city and see if we can raze it, pillaging as much as possible along the way. That was my entire battle plan.

I'm right (...about 2km) behind you. ;)

How quaint, Sweeta wants a battle plan. My thought was to try to get the troops to the holy city and see if we can raze it, pillaging as much as possible along the way. That was my entire battle plan.
I think the key is "try"
we'll try, and get crushed, but we'll try (see my motto)

This game is over, i'd like to make this proposal:
Let's start from the very beginning, and let's try to play with different strategies, and let's compare our results at given dates (in-game dates), and let's see how it goes. A sort of in-team GotM.
I think we can start from me (i suppose i'll not have a TS to play, the game will be over), anyway i'll wait to see yout comments.

As for the war:

I'd say, don't attack any cities. Just pillage whatever you can. There's no sense throwing our grenadiers and cavalry to the slaughter against infantry, better to make him come to us. Just because we're launching a suicidal war doesn't mean we have to jump off the cliff; better to station us at the edge of a cliff and wait for a shove.

If he's launching a counterattack, figure out what city he is targetting, and see if offering him that city will bring peace. I agree that the game is lost, but there might be some fun in launching a war with nothing to lose.

As for running an in-team GotM, that's a good idea, and a good way to rid yourself of all of my mistakes :). We should wait until our game is well and truly over, though, to avoid any potential accusations of impropriety (not that we'd have any additional info to glean at this point, still, it's probably best to wait). It would be interesting to try with differet basic strategies - if we could keep peace with Khan (via religion?) or deal with him more quiekly and focus on the other continent early, it could be a very different game. But hindsight is 20/20.

Civ, i agree, better wait, i don't want any trouble. Anyway i don't think your mistakes are worse than mine or of anyone else.

As i already said, this was a nice team experience, and probably we're losing 'cause some RNG reason, like no one DoWed Hanni, or... boh?

BTW can anyone post the 4000 BC save?
I never downloaded it, perhaps Sansman or Merum...

Of course our next try will be full of prior knowledge, but would be interesting see what we can do with this advantage.

I think i'll try a chariot rush to conquer Gengis before he can breath, then settle near the marble, then... i'll see.

OK, I'm confused. Hannibal is not at war with Ghandi, so are we flinging our meager army into his lands simply to accelerate our own demise?

If the only reason for doing this is to try to end the game, then fine, I'll suicide our troops and let him roll us. Otherwise, why aren't we hauling ass toward communism so we can build spies and sabotage his spaceship?

I agree the game is most likely lost, but I want to be clear that we're simply committing suicide for the sake of doing so, when there are other options that are available to us.

Merum,

War with Hanni was (generally) thought to be the most direct means of slowing him down, through pillaging and causing him to (theoretically) divert resources away from his SS and to his military. We can probably survive by acquiescing to some ridiculous peace demand (give away two cities, whatever - we're not trying to win so it doesn't matter) if and when he launches a counterattack, but the fact that he lacks oil and an OB path to us means we might be able to fend him off for a while.

In other news, I found a new job, and will be moving very shortly. I probably need to go on skip for a while, in case I get a new TS. I'll keep you posted.

The 4000BC save.

I hope I did not screw this up.

Merum -- You're absolutely right. Hannibal made peace with Gandhi just before my last turn. I'm very sorry, but I missed the notice. I just took a look at the save and saw this.

I agree - war with Hannibal is off for now. I think we should focus on building some spies and sabotaging Hannibal.

Thanks Sans for he save.
Yes, avoid that war, AI is often so stupid Hanni can lost the SR for some wrong research path, or else.
Let's wait and see if G. manages to fill his gap.

So people have a little hope left, do they? ;)

<rant>
If we're going to continue, let's use the SE properly. I notice some cities only have 1 specialist, and this is the free one. We can afford to add 1-2 or even more in each city, and we have to be mindful what the cities are specialised in... ie stop building those libraries in the cash cities... banks, markets, etc are far more worth it. Tiles like sea ones might have 3:commerce:, but a specialist has 3:gold: + 3:science: or 6:science:, and so are stronger (not to mention GPpoints).
</rant>

Speaking of which, perhaps we can afford to switch to pacifism (don't forget the hinduism!) for the +100% now that free religion is widespread. Izzy won't like it, but what the hell.

The save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/Fifth_Element_SG004_AD1810_01.CivWarlordsSave)

OK. I got us onto researching communism now. We are Hindu, and in Pacifism. We really can't afford pacifism, though, may need to switch.

I recommend free religion and free speech now that we can run them.

I did a lot of specialist shuffling, putting the cities to the purpose they are designated for.

We popped another GE in Vienne, I moved him to Bibracte.

Under pacifism, Bibracte will pop another GP in 6 turns, Tolosa in 9 (well, not after Bibracte pops) but I don't think we can afford to stay in pacifism any longer. That puts another GP in Bibracte in 12, most likely a scientist (currently 68%).

We are 18 turns from communism and scotland yard. Probably less if we save money and increase science/gold with FS/FR.

We have liberalism and Hanni doesn't. However, he won't give us squat for it.

Next player, remember to watch for city growth messages and assign specialists when they happen.

I didn't take copious notes, mostly because the turnset primarily consisted of hitting enter. Here's what I did take, plus the autolog:

IT: I MM all the cities, adding and moving specialists to reflect each city's designated purpose. Took a turn off education with the specialists plus the additional gold raised. Now due in 2.
Revolt to Hinduism, once that revolt ends, I'll revolt to pacifism and whatever other civic I think might be useful.
Call our ships home to cut unit supply costs. 8 turns to get there, ugh.
Set Ghenghis to research steel. MT is ridiculous, considering we already have it.
Notice Izzy is no longer vassal to Mehmed. If she don't like our religion, let her come, and we'll roll her, too. We can use more land.

T1: Hinduism in, revolt to pacifism. This will save us 8gpt civic maintenance, but the military costs may be high. We'll see. We can sure use the GPP.

T2: Pacifism in, ouch. We are now bleeding money. We may have to switch back. :(

T4: Education in, Liberalism in 10.
Mehmed declares on Washington again.

T5: Hannibal doesn't appear to have liberalism. How is this possible? He's got everything else.
I try around to see if anybody will "Spare us liberalism for a good friend". No luck.

Turn 406 (1782 AD)

Turn 407 (1784 AD)

Turn 408 (1786 AD)
Vienne finishes: Cavalry

Turn 409 (1788 AD)
Vienne begins: Hindu Mandir
Tech learned: Education
Vienne grows: 10
Vienne's borders expand

Turn 410 (1790 AD)
Research begun: Liberalism
Verlamion grows: 10

Turn 411 (1792 AD)
Verlamion finishes: Observatory
Bibracte grows: 14
Gergovia grows: 9
Tolosa grows: 9

Turn 412 (1794 AD)
Verlamion begins: University
Tolosa begins: Observatory
Bibracte begins: University

Turn 413 (1796 AD)

Turn 414 (1798 AD)

Turn 415 (1800 AD)
Camulodunum grows: 8

Turn 416 (1802 AD)
Cavalry promoted: Combat I
Cavalry promoted: Flanking I
Bibracte's borders expand
Grenadier defeats (7.92/12): Indian Cavalry
Pikeman loses to: Indian Cavalry (2.40/15)

Turn 417 (1804 AD)
Grenadier defeats (8.16/12): Indian War Elephant
Knight defeats (10.00/10): Indian Cavalry
Henry Bessemer (Great Engineer) born in Vienne

Turn 418 (1806 AD)

Turn 419 (1808 AD)
Tech learned: Liberalism

Turn 420 (1810 AD)
Research begun: Communism

New roster:

Doom Train (up)
Sansman (on deck)
Sweetacshon
Blubmuz
BrianS
Civicide
Merum (resting)

Doom, switch to Free Religion ASAP, or eventually wait for next GP.
It's worth to switch to Free speech in the same turn? i vote yes (we need culture to expand borders over Izzy and the +2g for town can compensate the lost from the capital)

Protect our land, perhaps build some gren.
Keep some longbow in the coastal forests.
Probably we can burn our GE for Wall street in Bibracte, it will give us at least 12 gpt.

edit:
Good TSs guys, a little hope is still in AI stupidity, so let's go ahead
OK, i think a GE would be enough to rush SY, perhaps we can wait to see if we have another one to rush WS.

I propose to research rifling after communism, then slow down the research to save some money for sabotages.

Civ, Congrats from me too for your new job, i hope you have improved

Have you noticed? our post in the spoiler thread shines for its loneliness!?!

I vote for FS/FR switch on the same turn.

I don't think we should burn the GE on Wall street. We may need both of them for Scotland Yard.

We can't afford to build any more military until we're out of pacifism. Plus, we have grenadiers out the wazoo.

PS: Congrats on the new job, Civicide. I'm glad things worked out for you.

OK, I do not agree on the FS/FR switch. Everyone is getting on edge that we had to drop the science rate, but that is the nature of a SE. We could drop it to 0% and it'd only add 6 odd turns to communism. In fact we should drop it down a bit, because we'll need cash for spies.

FS: We only have 10 (iirc) cottages, so thats 20 gpt extra. Which isn't much next to the bureau - capital makes roughly 200 :gold:+:science: per turn, take off the 50%, it's down to about 125/turn ~ 75 lost.

FR: We do not have happiness problems, so the +1 doesn't matter, and the 10% science bonus... at our current rates, that's about 20-25 :science:/turn, as opposed to +100% GP rate.... which I could make a point about if I could find those damn lists of GP lightbulb preferences. Granted, it is costing an extra 79 :gold:/turn.

If it were me alone, I'd actually switch back to Slavery, and maybe also Org Religion, whip the relevant science and cash buildings, and switch back again to what we're on now... but I'm just one guy. I just don't see a payoff in leveraging cottages thru civics, and it doesn't seem like we have time to put new ones in.

Perhaps we should also find a spot for the GTheatre and the NEpic, we could also add the FP to, say, Isca, to aid culture growth.

Don't forget to renegotiate deals with Hanni, Izzy, and Mehmed for an extra 15/t or so. I'll look for those lists to finish my point.

EDIT: There is a spot up in the NE which needs fishing boats.

reference: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=140952

GProphet - now useless - would've given us liberalism

GS -
physics
fission (after elec)
biology
electricity (after phys)

OK, so the list here is so damn long it is tough to read, but the point is that if we bulb physics, research elec (or bulb bio then elec), and bulb fission, while getting rifling, steel, artillary, then rocketry (all bulbable), we could nuke the crap out of Hanni at an opportune moment? OK it's a long shot.

GA -
Democracy
Communism!
Biology

GM -
Economics
Corporation
Steam

GE -
Steam
(AL needs corp)
Steel
Railroad

So every time we get a tech, it'll change things, but that's how it stands now... if we want to aim for anything in particular.

Ugh, add pacifism to our list of mistakes this game. Our military is way too big for it to be effective. FR is our best religious civic at the moment - the research benefits will help and it will minimize the diplomatic penalties with Izzy, which is a bit of a concern. For us to run pacificm effectively, we would have to delete most of our military, which, given the chance of trouble from Izzy, is not an appealing option.

I see that Hanni has an offshore platform now, and an oil navy, which means war is out. Oh well. It also means he's at Plastics (not overly surprising), but his lack of Liberalism, in addition to being surprising, also means he has no Communism, and leaves him utterly naked to our spies (once we get them). Guys, don't underestimate spies, particularly when we'll be into a situation where we can devote 100% of our empire to their use. Given the will, you can utterly prevent a civ from achieving a win with them. Just pick a major SS component - the engine, or whatever - and continue to sabotage its production. Don't spend gold on anything else, just pillaging his resources, production of key SS components (also prevent him from building Scotland Yard), and anything else we can think of.

A lot of people look down on spies because their cost almost always means they are useful only to civs that have a legitimate space race going anyway. However our situation is fairly unique: I doubt that any of us has ever been in a situation where we can devote 100% of our resources to stopping someone else with no designs on winning ourselves. I think we might be surprised at just how much damage we can do.

If you look at the earliest posts in this thread, I predicted that this game would be a flexing of lategame muscles that most of us don't use that often.

After Communism is researched, I think we need to shut research off completely, maybe giving us a single science city or two to limp us to whatever techs we need, relying on lightbulbing for anything else. With merchants in most of our cities soon, we might get lucky and pop a great merchant or two, which should be used for trade missions to fund spies. Continue to shop our resources around.

We have an active trade with Hannibal: silver for 10gpt. I think we should cancel this. 10gpt for us is not worth +2 happiness in every city for him. Mehmed lacks silver; we should try to work a trade with him.

If Izzy invades, fight her off, but I don't think we need to wage an aggressive war unless we are presented with a very tempting target. Fight her off, but if the war goes poorly, we may want to consider capitulation. If Gandhi sends more invasion forces, having a master woule help prevent us from losing entirely. Izzy is no real threat to Gandhi so that's one less concern.

I really wish Hannibal weren't on our old continent, as vassalizing to Hannibal would be a powerful means of being able to sabotage him without his being able to DOW us, but that means too much damage to Gandhi, so it's not an option.

Spies are powerful tools, and we're not that far from them. I'm very glad a GE popped, although I'm pretty sure just 1 is enough for SY. If we can get spies up and running soon, we might be able to pull off a miracle :)

Quick thought -- we have a lot of out of date military, mainly Berserkers. If we kill a bunch of them, it will help us with Pacificsm.

Humans cannot capitulate, I fear. I agree with the spies, however.

Re: GPs, Bibracte should pop next, with about 70% chance of a GS, which'll go toward physics... not much good for us, with so little of the game left. Tolosa and Isca are mixed with artists/engineers.

Actually.... a thought here. If we hire 7 artists in Tolosa (3 citizens on max food tiles with starvation) for 3 turns, we have a high chance of a GA. Use this on Democracy. At the same time, 9 artists in Isca (2 cs on max food with starve) will have another high chance of artist to use on communism 5 turns later. Just to make sure Bibracte doesn't get its GS first, drop a few scis onto production to speed the uni. Thus we could put our research efforts into defence against G -> steel (15ish), steam (can use partial GE), rail (machine guns will hold off anything upto tanks), combustion for destroyers.

On top of this, we should be able to bulb demo and communism in 8 turns or so. A sweet deal, assuming the GAs come out ok... but it's worth at least 3 turns to have a look, imho. I could run a WB test if anyone is interested in this plan.

Got the save. I ll probably play tonight or tommorow

OK, disregard all of that about GAs, etc. Monarch, epic, blah blah, it'll take more than 1 GP to bulb each tech. Oh well. On the upside, I can confirm that SY is 1 GE only.

Just a doubt
I think, but i can be wrong, that we don't need to hurry SY (but let's verify how many turns it needs).
OTOH, rush WS gives us immediate benefits.

Sweeta's post about civic is interesting, and we can stay in bureau if we don't need border expansion (one more reason to build WS if SY doesn't take forever).
I will build SY where we own HE, to let anyway room for WS in capital.
I'd like to verify about FR/Pacifism: since we own the SM, the income for religious buildings can arrive at about 20 raw gold/turn and the benefit of +10% science can be beaten by the GP rate/lighbulb ... but running pacifisn with our army is expensive and for sure it's better NOT kill units... not easy to decide.
Of course if we care for "heaten religion" penalty is better switch, otherwise :confused:

It's a doozy... now that I've looked at the WB test, GPs only bulb 1/4-1/3 of a tech... somewhere between 5-10 turns, I imagine. We do have the ability to pump quite a few out, tho, using a selective starvation method. Is this worth 79 gpt + another 20 odd :science:? If we round it off and say it's a 100 benefit per turn, then FR would take 15-20 turns to add up to the benefit of a GP created thru Pacifism (roughly 1500-2000 beakers bulbed on a tech), however we can make a GP quicker than 15-20 turns, so Pacifism wins out, at least until GP pop values increase too far.

So a compromise plan? Let's blast a few GP's out now, and then switch to FR. As I posted earlier, we could have 2 GAs within 8 turns, but then, they are GAs... other GPs could be gained thru MMing and starvation in a similar timeframe, imo. We would just need to decide on which techs we want before we shut down to save for spy money.

I'd like to see MGs and destroyers, so steam, steel, rail, combustion. Also biology, economics, and corporation wouldn't go astray. Blubmuz, we can't build any wallst without corp, which is 2 techs away.

Techs needed:
Combustion: the path should be steel/steam/rail/comb.
Rifling: just one step, but perhaps useless with rail (MG)
Corporation: Economics/corp (for WS)
Democracy: just one step, we need it if we begin to have happiness problems.

After those techs we can research at, say 20% if not shut down completely.

Yes GP lightbulb only a small part of late techs, they give an help if you got the right GP for the right tech, otherwise they're wasted.

Anyway GM can be the most useful ones, for the trade route ability (roughly 3000 gold, if you remember SG2).

EDIT: Never mind, I was being an idiot. :blush: Move along, nothing to see here.:D

I agree, we'll have to save a fair bit of money, but we'll have to get there first. Why not set research to 0 or 10% now and start saving, and let the specialists do the work until SY is built - really hire alot of them to get it done, then we can change up to FR, and get all shifty on Hannibal.

Combustion: the path should be steel/steam/rail/comb.
Rifling: just one step, but perhaps useless with rail (MG)
Corporation: Economics/corp (for WS)
Democracy: just one step, we need it if we begin to have happiness problems.

So where to head? We can probably afford to dump rifling, and democracy can surely wait. So it's corp for cash, or comb for defence.

GS -
physics
fission (after elec)
biology
electricity (after phys)

GA -
Democracy
Communism!
Biology

GM -
Economics
Corporation
Steam

GE -
Steam
(AL needs corp)
Steel
Railroad

So it would seem we should avoid GSs - join to the capital or academy in science cities. Avoid GAs as well, but we can bulb toward democracy if we are unlucky and get one. So put engineers and heaps of merchants in cities where a GP is likely, and if we make sure we don't finish corporation before railroad, tech toward combustion, and use the GMs on eco/ corp bulbs, we should get everything we need fairly soon.

So what does everyone think? let's keep things moving. I know I am a strong voice for keeping pacifism for a while, but it is going to be a few TSs before we can get communism, build SY, and deliver spies to Hanni. In the meantime, I vote we downsize the army a little... we have spears and pikes, and berserkers with amphibious aren't worth as much as normal, as we aren't going on the attack. We could at least get rid of a few.

I'm in favor of popping a couple more GP, especially if we can pop GMs and use the money for sabotage. After that, we'll need to start saving money. Techs are pretty much secondary at this point, after communism, but we should lean towards defense, because there's a risk of hanni declaring on us if he catches us.

While the cash is important for sabotage, I agree with Merum that after communism we should tech towards defense and am in favor of combustion as a good path.

Since I really do not understand how the plans will work. I have nothing to add other than it sounds good.

While the cash is important for sabotage, I agree with Merum that after communism we should tech towards defense and am in favor of combustion as a good path.
Yes, not only gives us destroyers, but in the path we'll find cannons and MGs.
Then, after communism, straight to combustion - i propose steel first, then the path is forced.

Sans, i think the plan is mostly this:
build 4 spies so we can watch Hanni and eventually sabotage his production or some strategic resource (and we need cash to do this) then the path for combustion where we gain 3 powerful defensive units (see above).
It can work, but probably Gandhi is too much behind to help himself to win, anyway is the best we can do.

Okay here is a plan for a TS I ll not start until we agree on all points.

1- Stick with pacifism little longer to get a GM. I ll hire merchants in the city that has highest chance of getting GM while making sure that no other city will pop GP.

2- Delete few obselate units like spears.

3- Cancel silver trade with Hannibal. Make a deal with Mehmed.

4- Switch to FR after we get GM or GM`s???. Should I switch after first GM??

5- Can I extend the turnset until the end of Communism?. So everything will be much clear for the further discussion.

I think we want a GA first to pop communism, DT. After that, go for a GM.

Other than that, looks great.

I think you can extend, unless something unexpected happens.
Probably is worth to wait for a 2nd GP (or until we're 1 or 2 turns away) before FR.
Yes, spears are too expensive to upgrade and are deeply obsolete, delete them. LBs and pikes have some chance to win, or at least to seriously damage a unit trying an amphibious attack: use LBs fortified in coastal forests and hills.

1. Hire alot of specialists in MOST cities, but manage it so the cities we want produce GPs. I just get the feeling that when we see what Hanni's up to, we'll be all cash, so let's get as much research and GPs in as we can now.

3. And renegotiate the deals with others to grab that few extra gold.

4. I am for staying with it for as long as possible. The more GMs or GEs we get, the better, imo. I'd like to think we'll have enough cash for a pillage by the time the first spy gets down there and finds something to pillage if we swap after communism comes in.

5. It depends on how long it is :) I think I could get it down near 15 with a lot of specialists... anything 15-20 is fine with me. Remember to fix that NE city that was pillaged. Good luck :thumbsup:

Oh, I keep forgetting to say it, but congrats on the job. :beer:

@Merum: A GA will pop democracy first, so that's probably a no go (it'd take 3-4 GAs to finish commy).

1- Stick with pacifism little longer to get a GM. I ll hire merchants in the city that has highest chance of getting GM while making sure that no other city will pop GP.

2- Delete few obselate units like spears.

3- Cancel silver trade with Hannibal. Make a deal with Mehmed.

4- Switch to FR after we get GM or GM`s???. Should I switch after first GM??

5- Can I extend the turnset until the end of Communism?. So everything will be much clear for the further discussion.

1- :goodjob:

2- :goodjob:

3- :goodjob:

4- :confused: no comment.

5- I am ok with this idea (I am on deck right?).:goodjob:

I ve finished my turnset but havent finished communism its 8-9 turns away.

We have our GM in Durnovaria. But next player should be careful because there are 3 cities that are close to another GP which will be not GM.

Canceled Silver deal with Hanni but couldn t find a good offer from Mehmed(he wants Silver+ 10 gpt for ivory)

Mehmed offered to join the war against Was which i refused and he declared peace in next turn. Izzy wanted clam for tribute. I accepted.

Also fired artists and hired scientists in Vienne and a city which i dont remember its name(Southernmost city).

SAVE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/Fifth_Element_SG004_AD1818_01.CivWarlordsSave)

Turn 420 (1810 AD)

Turn 421 (1811 AD)
Verlamion grows: 11
Durocortorum finishes: Library
Isca grows: 11
Vienne finishes: Hindu Mandir

Turn 422 (1812 AD)
Durocortorum begins: Observatory
Vienne begins: Observatory
Tolosa grows: 10

Turn 423 (1813 AD)
Isca's borders expand

Turn 424 (1814 AD)
Gergovia begins: University

Turn 425 (1815 AD)
Durocortorum grows: 10
Tolosa finishes: Observatory

Turn 426 (1816 AD)
Durnovaria finishes: Library
Gergovia finishes: Grenadier
Tolosa grows: 11
Vienne grows: 11

Turn 427 (1817 AD)
Durnovaria begins: Observatory
Shah Jahan (Great Merchant) born in Durnovaria
Durocortorum's borders expand

Turn 428 (1818 AD)

Could you post your autolog, pls?
How many turns did you play?

We have the Great Merchant that Doom train mentioned and two Great Engineers in Bibracte. I am assuming that we want to send the great merchant on a trade mission as far as possible like Carthage. I pretty sure we are saving one Great Engineer for Scotland Yard, but what about the second one. They can light bulb Steam Power with 1796beakers, 7176beakers are required for the tech. I believe that it is one of the tech we want to get, so I think I shall store the Great Engineer until we actually start researching Steam Power.

The Great People Info is as follows:



http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u32/The_Sansman/SGOTM-04/Civ4ScreenShot0000-2.jpg



http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u32/The_Sansman/SGOTM-04/Civ4ScreenShot0001-3.jpg



http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u32/The_Sansman/SGOTM-04/Civ4ScreenShot0002-4.jpg



http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u32/The_Sansman/SGOTM-04/Civ4ScreenShot0003-1.jpg

I am not exactly sure what to do with if anything, any advice would be appreciated. My next question is regarding the civics should I be changing anything:

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u32/The_Sansman/SGOTM-04/Civ4ScreenShot0004-3.jpg

I will wait a couple of hours before I play a couple turns tonight, will likely finish playing tomorrow.

I've had a look at the save, and I think we can pop another GM just before communism... if we starve Durocortorum. Just work the 2 farms, and the rest are merchants, and it'll take 11 turns til a GM is born. The horse and copper can go to Gergovia to help with the observatory there. Other cities can avoid popping a GP (some are close), and Tolosa will have to drop all specialists and even work a "citizen" (no +gpp) for a while, but it can be done. If we put science at 10%, we'll grab about +75/turn to give us a good sabotage chest.

Then we can switch to FR, reinstate the specialists, work toward combustion, and build SY and sabotage away.

BTW The resources around Camulodunum are still not hooked up!! Also, let's not build stuff like observatories in the cash cities which don't have banks and markets yet.

Cross post with sans -
Kahn is set to research steam (I think), so we should research steel, and we can swap with him. He's up for about 25 turns, iirc, and it'll take us that long to get communism and steel, so no problem. As long as we don't get corporation, the GE will be good for bulbing some of railroad after that.

I've had a look at the save, and I think we can pop another GM just before communism... if we starve Durocortorum. Just work the 2 farms, and the rest are merchants, and it'll take 11 turns til a GM is born. The horse and copper can go to Gergovia to help with the observatory there. Other cities can avoid popping a GP (some are close), and Tolosa will have to drop all specialists and even work a "citizen" (no +gpp) for a while, but it can be done. If we put science at 10%, we'll grab about +75/turn to give us a good sabotage chest.

ok

Then we can switch to FR, reinstate the specialists, work toward combustion, and build SY and sabotage away.

BTW The resources around Camulodunum are still not hooked up!! Also, let's not build stuff like observatories in the cash cities which don't have banks and markets yet.

I will switch the cities

Kahn is set to research steam (I think), so we should research steel, and we can swap with him. He's up for about 25 turns, iirc, and it'll take us that long to get communism and steel, so no problem. As long as we don't get corporation, the GE will be good for bulbing some of railroad after that.

Khan is researching Steel @31turns he can not research Steam Power. He can research Military Tradition, Education or Printing Press as well. For him to research Steam Power we will have to give him Printing Press and Replaceable Parts. Do we want to go down this route?

I think this is worth discussing a bit so I will hold off until tomorrow to play.

How many turns do we need for steel at break even?
Can we eventually research economics/corporation waiting for steel from GK?
I'm not convinced to burn a GE for 1/6 of a tech, better use him for IW or WS in Bibracte.
Ironworks help to speed up WS, and gives us a good production of anything and 3 more engineer specialists.

Load that GM in a galleon, escort with 2 frigates and send him to Carthage, it should be the best choice.

Can we eventually trade communism for some tech? i know it's usually appreciated by the AIs.

Don't forget to cancel the extorted deal with Izzy after the 10 turns are past.

Strange some resource are not connected i'm a road builder, probably i didn't noticed that.

Khan is researching Steel @31turns he can not research Steam Power. He can research Military Tradition, Education or Printing Press as well. For him to research Steam Power we will have to give him Printing Press and Replaceable Parts. Do we want to go down this route?

While I have no problem giving him those techs, let him continue steel, and we can work on steam,.

'm not convinced to burn a GE for 1/6 of a tech, better use him for IW or WS in Bibracte.
Ironworks help to speed up WS, and gives us a good production of anything and 3 more engineer specialists.

Can we eventually trade communism for some tech? i know it's usually appreciated by the AIs.


Well it's more like 1/4, but it's a good point about the GE.

I wouldn't mind trading communism, but we certainly don't want H to get it. His lack of spies is our Obi-wan Kenobi.

Could you post your autolog, pls?
How many turns did you play?

Added to orginal report;) .

Hey Doom, you asked for an extent until communism, and you played only 7 turns instead... no problem, but you could take your time :) .

Agreed with Sweeta, but please, use that GE for IW.
I wouldn't mind trading communism, but we certainly don't want H to get it. His lack of spies is our Obi-wan Kenobi.
Just trade it with a civ which hates him

ups sorry for that I am not counting while playing so decided to stop after getting GM because of short time

Pretty uneventful Turnset. I tried the idea of starving Durocortorum to get the Great Merchant but in a few turns the population dropped and Tolosa would have birthed it Great Person. So I stopped the starvation and put a wack of Merchants in Tolosa, we got another Great Engineer in the end. I have a work boat on the way to the crabs near Camulodunum so next player watch for it. In other news.

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u32/The_Sansman/SGOTM-04/Civ4ScreenShot0006-2.jpg

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u32/The_Sansman/SGOTM-04/Civ4ScreenShot0008-1.jpg

I said no, I figured that we would be in Free Religion soon.

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u32/The_Sansman/SGOTM-04/Civ4ScreenShot0009-2.jpg

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u32/The_Sansman/SGOTM-04/Civ4ScreenShot0010.jpg

I made this deal in hopes that she would be less likely to attack up.

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u32/The_Sansman/SGOTM-04/Civ4ScreenShot0011.jpg

Turn 429 (1819 AD)
Tolosa begins: Bank
Tolosa begins: Grocer
Tolosa begins: Bank
Isca begins: Bank
Bibracte grows: 15
Bibracte finishes: University

Turn 430 (1820 AD)
Camulodunum begins: Work Boat

Turn 431 (1821 AD)
Bibracte finishes: Cavalry

Turn 432 (1822 AD)

Turn 433 (1823 AD)
Verlamion grows: 12
Isca grows: 12
Vienne finishes: Observatory

Turn 434 (1824 AD)
Vienne begins: University
Camulodunum finishes: Work Boat
Thomas Edison (Great Engineer) born in Tolosa

Turn 435 (1825 AD)
Bibracte begins: Work Boat

Turn 436 (1826 AD)
Camulodunum's borders expand

Turn 437 (1827 AD)
Bibracte finishes: Work Boat

Turn 438 (1828 AD)
Bibracte begins: Aqueduct
Tech learned: Communism

Turn 439 (1829 AD)
Research begun: Steam Power

The save.

Doom Train
Sansman (resting)
Sweetacshon (up)
Blubmuz (on deck)
BrianS
Civicide
Merum

So it looks like I'm up. Plan is :
- Burn a GE on SY, get spies down to Hanni and find out what's up.
- Go to FR (I'm no fan, but everyone else seems to want this)
- Gift education to poor Kahn.
- umm... MM like a demon to try and squeeze out the last drops...

We are starting to get :mad: for emancipation, so we might have to start using the culture slider. Otherwise everything is going ok. Ghandi has started to close the gap to H (on the graphs), so that's a plus. We'll probably never get to the point where we can see his aluminium, so it's going to be tough.

@Sans: Good TS. The only thing I would change is switching religions when Izzy asked. We were going to FR anyway, as you said, but now we have an extra -1 modifier with her.

There's not that much to discuss, but I'll play in about 14 hrs in case anyone has any bright ideas.. or even dim ones :)

@Sans: Good TS. The only thing I would change is switching religions when Izzy asked. We were going to FR anyway, as you said, but now we have an extra -1 modifier with her.

I knew that I would get some flak for that, my reasoning was we have only one city that has the religion she wanted us to switch to. It seemed silly to switch while in Organized Religion with that. Sorry, if it was the wrong decision.

There's really no need to apoogise, Sans, it's just that we all learnt alot about diplo in previous sgotms, when we're trying to get the whole world to love us. In this game it won't matter TOO much, as long as she doesn't attack us. :please:

I was going to play this arvo, but I have a lecture soon, so it'll be tonight.... maybe 5 hrs or so.

Go to FR (I'm no fan, but everyone else seems to want this)and SG3? :lol:

@Sans: Good TS. The only thing I would change is switching religions when Izzy asked. We were going to FR anyway, as you said, but now we have an extra -1 modifier with her.I disagree: we have no interest to switch, loosing the pacifism bonus and suffer 1 turn of anarchy.
The -1 modifier doesn't change much, and soon, when we'll revolt to FR the "hated religion" modifiers will disappear.
Still, if she want to attack, she'll do it anyway.

Since we own a lot of GEs, we can build SY, build IW and lightbulb RR ... correct? so anybody will be happy.
For now use spies only to spy,and inform us about the cost of sabotage.

Only a question to Sans: the GM, with its TR to Carthage, brought us over 3000 (i enlarged the SS, still i'm not sure)? if this is correct, we got enough money to sabotage the world.

Hey guys i need an help:
my daughter has to present a work about Orwell's 1984 for her graduation.

I made a translation from her italian text, but i'm sure you will find a lot of mistakes.

Thus if any of you is so gentle to correct, he will have our eternal gratitude :) .

i zipped a .TXT and a word 2003 files

It's not a big text and (as usual) she asked me at the last possible moment.
So i need it ASAP.
Thanks in advance

Only a question to Sans: the GM, with its TR to Carthage, brought us over 3000 (i enlarged the SS, still i'm not sure)? if this is correct, we got enough money to sabotage th