Welcome to your C_IV Warlords SGOTM 4 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

The Game
This Monarch difficulty game is on a Standard size, Gyathaar-special, fractal map, at Epic speed, against 7 rivals including India. All victory conditions are enabled except Diplomatic, but the laurels for this contest will be awarded to the teams who achieve the fastest Space defeat by Gandhi.

Versions
This game will be played in Warlords Version 2.08 only.

It will be played using the current version of the HoF Mod. This is version 2.08.003 for Windows. There are insufficient Mac players to form a Mac team. so it will be played in Windows only.

If later versions of Warlords or the HoF Mod are released they cannot be used for this game.

Your start file will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php) at midnight, server local time, at the start of February 23.

Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm4_start_small.jpg (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm4_start_large.jpg)

Map Parameters
Playable Leader/Civ - Ragnar of The Vikings
Rivals - 7 civs including Gandhi (who is locked in war with Ragnar)
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Monarch
Landform - Fractal, cylindrical, medium sea level, temperate
Game Speed - Epic
Diplomatic Victory Disabled
All other settings are defaults

Notes

Please visit the C-IV Warlords SGOTM reference thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208462) to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.

Warlords v.2.08 is supported for this SGOTM. No other versions can be used, and you will have to stick with the same version throughout the game.

Teams will compete for up to four awards - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher.

Awards will be given to teams who achieve Space defeats to India in the least turns.

All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

Please enjoy the game :)

First post... whooppee!!!

Looks like the usual suspects are back (if we ever change our name, I vote for that :)), plus an addition, The Sansman. Be welcome!! We are so close to finishing #3, I'd prefer not to start this one yet, what do you guys think? Sans, feel free to check out our #3 thread if you haven't already. This one's going to be tough (er than a purely diplo victory against 16 AI). :devil:

I'm here.
Welcome Sansman.
Yes, i agree with Sweeta's post, we have to finish our #3, we are in a crucial phase, let's wait...
Last but not least, i really don't figure the strategy to let an AI win in the fastest way being permanently at war (if we can make peace we can give some techs, then declare 10 turns later, but we can't).

btw someone knows about the WW? i hope being locked at war doesn't affect our WW, otherwise we are ruined.

I agree, finish SGOTM3 first. We are (hopefully) close to a victory. And welcome to Sansman! I second the offer to check out our SGOTM3 thread, where we are (hopefully) in the final stages of a true diplo victory with 17 rivals.

I have a few ideas for intentionally losing. They involve:

1) Making friends with Gandhi's friends, and gifting techs to them. I think that we absolutely MUST have a religion shared between us, and also shared with third parties (particularly, say, MM, if he is in the game). That way we trade and gift techs with as many friends as possible to keep the global tech pace as ferocious as possible, and ensure that Gandhi is cut in on the action. Our financial trait should go a long ways in helping the tech pace stay hardcore.

2) Founding and taking good cities and building them up, only to "gift" them to Gandhi via leaving them undefended at strategic moments, particularly good production cities towards the end of the game. If we can build, say, the Space Elevator, and then give it to Gandhi, I'm all for it.

3) Aggressive, excessive use of spies and sabotage on all civs BUT Gandhi to ensure that it's Gandhi that wins the victory. Hell, maybe even nukes! I have a feeling that late game war may play a particularly crucial role in this game. Brush up on using those bombers and tank tactics!

4) Losing as few units to Gandhi as humanly possible, both for efficiency's sake, and for minimizing our WW.

5) Hopefully having much of our empire on a different continent than Gandhi's, to minimize the amount of actual conflict between us.

How does that sound?

I'm just checking in. I haven't had much time to think about this yet, but Civicide's thoughts seem like a good starting point.

Thank-you all for the welcome. I did not realize I would have check the Maintenance thread for knowing which team I would be placed with, thus my delayed check-in. Well I think the first thing I should do is read your current SGOTM thread.

I think you all should know a little about my Civ 4 playing history. I finally got a computer that could run Civ 4 in November and started playing then. In January I joined a couple SG games that were Warloads. I generally like to play with the slowest game speed on the largest map with as many civs as possible with Domination switched off. My goals tend to be to beat my opponents into submission (I usually leave them 1-3 cities) and go for a space victory at 2050. I started at noble but now when I have time (inbetween the SG games) I play at Prince, though I still have not finished one game on prince yet. Basically I am green and still need to learn a lot so please be patience with me and do not hesitate to point out when I am making/made a mistake. Or when I ask a silly question(s).

I'm here, although I'm going to be traveling again for a few days. I don't think I've ever intentionally lost before.

At the least, let's get that scout moved to where we're going to move him and have a look at the lay of the land, this will give us some further discussion before we get into the meat of this game.

Welcome, Sansman!

Well how about we continue the "noob beginning" tradition and let Sans take the first TS?? If you just move the scout, then post a sceenshot, that'd be great, like Merum said. I'm not sure moving onto that hill will help our initial choice... what about moving him NW to 1S of the pigs?

Sansman, there are no silly questions. We've all been there, and I know for one, I'll be there again.

Oh, absolutely. N00bs must start!

Sansman, a review of any of our previous SGOTM threads should relieve you of any concern over asking dumb questions. We all have our moments, and manage to rein each other back into the fold. :mischief:

You know, I was reading your current SGOTM and saw that there is a new tradition of letting the noobie screw things up at the beginning ;). I was planning on grabbing the save and doing the Scout move. But I thought I would wait to see if you all would want this. As it so happens I came up in one of the SGs I am part of and thus will be busy tonight. If it does not get too late I will do the move and post a picture tonight, tomorrow night at the latest. Please let me know this is alright.

checking in for SGOTM 4

Welcome to our team Sansman...

You know, I was reading your current SGOTM and saw that there is a new tradition of letting the noobie screw things up at the beginning ;). I was planning on grabbing the save and doing the Scout move. But I thought I would wait to see if you all would want this. As it so happens I came up in one of the SGs I am part of and thus will be busy tonight. If it does not get too late I will do the move and post a picture tonight, tomorrow night at the latest. Please let me know this is alright.
By all means go ahead. I agree with Sweets, move the scout NW NW to beneath the pigs. This will give us a good idea if a move along the lines of 1W will be palatable for our opening city placement.

Agreed with the scout move, kick us off, pal.

Ok I guess this is my got it. I did the move and here is the result.

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/7397/civ4screenshot0025un3.jpg

Well, in place looks alright with me... in fact it's science central.... well, no rivers for the extra commerce, and to tell the truth it's an ideal GP farm with some production potential for early units/ wonders. OK scratch all that, and I will sit on the fence until we scout a bit... in any case, settle in place is my vote.

So what does Rags have? Aggresive/ financial, berserker (mace), and trading post (lighthouse). He starts with fishing and hunting. So maybe fishing boat first (working the forested plains hill to max hammers), then warrior, worker (or 2), settler, with judicial chopping, and possibly a tilt at the mids/ oracle double? Ambitious, yet doable on Monarch, with so many hills and trees about. :D So... we're going to need agri then AH early,but considering we can wb, maybe mining> BW first up?

Oi. With that gold, and all those hills, combined with tons of extra food, a move 2W is looking MIGHTY tempting. That would be just a sick production city.

Merum pops his head in from the airport lounge to say...

2W loses us the coast, which is 3 gold per worked tile, plus it loses us the clams. I think we should settle in place, and build a second city ASAP over by the gold. There's also a river and a bunch of hills there to be worked.

If I were to make any move at all, it would be 2N to the other blue circle, but not knowing what's up there, it may not pay off otherwise. It would give us a nice mix of hills, food, and commerce in our capitol, though.

I think we should settle in place and use the scout to find out what we have around us. Also I should be able to play tonight, so how many turns should I do?

Welcome Sansman, i hope you will have fun with our team.
Yep, the "noob thing" began with me, and now it's a Fifth Element tradition.

Yes, settle in place, warrior/work boat/warrior/worker/settler:
i wanna that gold mined ASAP.

If you like you can start to play, i think mining should be our first research, then the wheel or AH.

It's Monarch, so we could skip the first warrior... unless Ghandi starts next door... surely not.

15 turns/ 10 while at war, sans.

I'm fine with settling in place, but I just drool when you can get the possibility for a capital in a location like 2W, due to Bureaucracy. Put Heroic Epic and Ironworks there and you've got a ridiculous military production site, plus it provides a good opportunity for early wonders. Settling in place will make for a pure GP farm, which is of course useful, but that Bureaucracy doesn't benefit nearly as much. Regardless, in place will be a powerful city. Maybe we can move our capital later :)

I think a tech path of Mining > Agriculture > Wheel > AH (or BW) is optimal here (definitely agri before AH, minimize research cost of AH and does us just as much good, minus the horsie reveal), with a build order of work boat > warrior > warrior > worker > settler (same as BLubmuz's, except with the work boat first to maximize early food).

15 turns (the 10 during war is only for real wars, such as the one [well, 3] that we are currently in in our SGOTM3; the "war" with Gandhi doesn't count). Then we can get our roster order put together and hopefully get some turns played, although we will be slow here until we finish SGOTM3. Hopefully I don't have any more turns to go in SGOTM3 (if it gets back around to me, then BLubmuz's boasting will have been empty), so we can start getting some turns played.

Focus scouting on areas that can take the gold; let's get that bad boy mined ASAP.

Ok I have played and here is the "play by play":

Nidaros founded
Nidaros begins: Work Boat
Research begun: Mining

Turn 1 (3970 BC)

Turn 2 (3940 BC)

Turn 3 (3910 BC)

Turn 4 (3880 BC)

Turn 5 (3850 BC)

Turn 6 (3820 BC)
Scout defeats (0.88/1): Barbarian Wolf

Turn 7 (3790 BC)
Nidaros's borders expand

Turn 8 (3760 BC)

Turn 9 (3730 BC)

Turn 10 (3700 BC)
Nidaros grows: 2

Turn 11 (3670 BC)
Tech learned: Mining

I went for Bronze Working next which I think will upset a few of you, so sorry.

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/4148/civ4screenshot0010pa7.jpg

Turn 12 (3640 BC)
Research begun: Bronze Working
Contact made: Mongolian Empire
Buddhism founded in a distant land

Turn 13 (3610 BC)

Turn 14 (3580 BC)

Buddhism is Founded

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/2499/civ4screenshot0011bm3.jpg

And we got a male caller:

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/5387/civ4screenshot0012tl8.jpg

Turn 15 (3550 BC)
Nidaros finishes: Work Boat
Scout defeats (0.66/1): Barbarian Lion

Turn 16 (3520 BC)
Nidaros begins: Warrior
Scout promoted: Woodsman I

Turn 17 (3490 BC)

Turn 18 (3460 BC)

Turn 19 (3430 BC)

Please do forgive give me I had to finish the Workboat so I figured I would play 20 turns. Anyways here's the world as we know it.

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/5656/civ4screenshot0013lg8.jpg

And our fair City:

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/5931/civ4screenshot0014ip8.jpg

The save.

Woah, is that a gold x3 site that I spy, with two food resources in easy working distance? I'm thinking that city #2 needs to be 1N of the eastern gold, so that it can siphon off of Nidaros' pigs and work all three gold spots in the early game. No production spots are jumping right out at me, up North it looks like we can get a city in range of corn, sheep, and hills x5, good enough for now. I'm also seeing a decent city in the jungle to the SW, with gems x2, sugar x2, and lots of grassland river for late game commerce (particularly since we were financial). Looking like a scientific powerhouse. Shoot for the Great Library? I'd love to see great commerce from the gold & gems cities augmented with a steady flow of great scientists from Nidaros.

20 turns is fine, since the opening turns go so quickly. Good turnset Sansman. Bronze Working early works fine; revealing copper will certainly help us determine optimal city placement, and slavery and chopping won't hurt. I don't think it's quite optimal (agriculture and AH will help us get those all-important early workers and settlers out more quickly, saving our chopping for lumber or an early army) but it's not much different, and far from a mistake.

The more I think about it, the more I think that global tech pace will determine the laurels in this game. The quickest way to get Gandhi to the technology level of a spaceship launch will be to get *everyone* to the level of a spaceship launch, then use late game war and espionage to ensure that it's Gandhi that actually wins. Gandhi usually does a very good job of keeping pace in the tech race, but we need to ensure that he has trading partners among our rivals; ensuring that he shares a religion with another civ or 2 will go a long ways, if we're put in a position to facilitate that.

To that end, I think our best bet will be to focus our research on technologies that the AI tends to place a minimal priority on and trade and gift techs as aggressively as humanly possible.

edit to augment a few thoughts: our first contact is with Genghis Khan, someone likely to do absolutely no good whatsoever to the global tech pace. Thoughts on attempting a worker steal and wiping him off the map as soon as possible? If we can find copper I'm all about the axemen...

Doing some dotmapping here, makes it look like we want to crank two settlers asap. It may even be worth it to chop them out, since we are working on BW.

There is the triple gold site that also gives us a fish resource (not visible on the map), then there is an awesome double gem and double sugar site very close as well. We should go get them.

http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/9638/civ4screenshot0005zl1.th.jpg (http://img235.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot0005zl1.jpg)

Looks like the Sansman and I are both playing on laptops, heh.

Actually, Merum I do play on a desktop, I cann't afford a decent laptop, yet. It is on the to buy list if I ever win a lottery.:lol:

Since I have no ideas what makes a good city location, I will agree with your dot map. I chose Bronze Working because I had the awful experience of losing my empire to Barbarians because I only had Warriors to defend it [pissed]. I always go for it sooner then later now.

I agree with the city placement in your dotmap, Merum (although the sugar+gems city might be moved 1E, for more grassland for towns in the late game, and 1 less jungle to chop). I also have a third suggestion, to the north.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/gdshaffe/redcity.jpg

Should provide a good mix of early production and grow into a commerce powerhouse. When all is said and done, I might take the original save and see how quickly I can get a cultural victory; this map is an ideal location so far.

I understand on BW Sansaman, but unless you are on raging barbs, you can usually afford a couple of worker techs before you need to get too worried about them; we'll still be dealing with animals for some time. Delaying BW for too long can be problematic of course, but it's not essential to get it immediately. You can buy some time with early fogbusting.

That said, BW first may work out well this map, as it will allow us to chop a couple of settlers and get us a head start on a large empire.

I'm thinking we'll want our Gold City to siphon off Nidaros' pigs, which, with the fish and a lighthouse, will give it 14:food: at size 2. At size 5 it can be working all 3 gold mines and still have 4:food: excess, allowing it to work two of the plains hills, making it a credible production city in addition to an early economic powerhouse. In times when we're not building anything important, it will be able to run 2 science specialists as well. At size 7 I count a base production of 15:hammers: and a base commerce of 28:commerce:. What a monster!

The northern city I proposed has 2 food resources, 5 hills (2 Plains 3 Grassland), and 11 tiles of grassland for cottaging. Only 3 have rivers, but it's still a good site.

The southern city will of course be another commerce powerhouse, though production will always be a problem (at least, until US) and it will take a while to get up and running thanks to all the jungle.

Obviously the gold site should be first, but whether we go north or south from there should probably depend on whether we feel we are going to face competition for the southern site. Availability of copper may change our tune as well.

After BW I think we should go Agri, then Mysticism, then AH, then re-evaluate. We'll need Mysticism early since most of our sites require our borders to be popped once before they're useful at all.

Just finished my TS on 3, a look here to say:
of course the gold city should be the first, ovelapping pigs if it can reach the fishes and the 3 gold hills.
Better wait to see the copper to decide city 3 and 4, and perhaps horses: then i propose AH after BW, then agri or writing.

I think it's useless to propose a roster, unless we don't wanna play 2 games at the same time: for me can be OK, thigs are soooo different we do not risk to be confused ;)

If you agree, we can post a roster, to be played "quietly", also to benefit our new teammate (better played quietly that not played at all).

Just some "formal" things:
I think is useless i'll post rules, etiquette, and so on, just Sansman be sure to have read it on the reference thread, we team veterans well know them.

20 turns can be OK for all for the first TS, then, as Sweeta already said, 15 normally and 10 in war-time.

Of course if some unexpected event happens, you have to stop and to consult the team.

Yep, straight to the gold site , stealing the pigs, and get another settler or 2 out soon after, as that gold will limit the economic problems of early expansion... in addition, we don't need to set a cracking early tech pace, because we will thrive later. More important, imo is to get out exploring to find out where Ghandi is so we know what the state of play is.

Instead of myst, what about getting to writing sooner rather than later and using libraries instead. All our cities (apart from nidaros) are rich and would benefit. With this in mind, we could skip AH til after writing, because city 2 wont need it until after the workboat.

I also wouldnt mind seeing a boat out exploring, for the reasons stated earlier.

I got this one, and will play a quick set, just to move us along.

Really a dead turnset. I didn't really take any notes, because there wasn't much noteworthy.

There is copper just north of our cultural borders, we might be able to expand over it.

I finished a worker, and he stands ready to chop the just-started settler.

Citizens can be switched from food to coast to speed research. I did this to speed BW.

AutologTurn 20 (3400 BC)
Scout defeats (0.68/1): Barbarian Panther

Turn 21 (3370 BC)
Nidaros grows: 3

Turn 22 (3340 BC)

Turn 23 (3310 BC)

Turn 24 (3280 BC)

Turn 25 (3250 BC)

Turn 26 (3220 BC)
Nidaros finishes: Warrior

Turn 27 (3190 BC)
Nidaros begins: Worker

Turn 28 (3160 BC)
Tech learned: Bronze Working
Scout defeats (0.10/1): Barbarian Lion

Turn 29 (3130 BC)
Research begun: Agriculture

Turn 30 (3100 BC)

Turn 31 (3070 BC)

Turn 32 (3040 BC)

Turn 33 (3010 BC)

Turn 34 (2980 BC)

Turn 35 (2950 BC)
Hinduism founded in a distant land

Turn 36 (2920 BC)

Turn 37 (2890 BC)
Scout defeats (0.90/1): Barbarian Wolf

Turn 38 (2860 BC)
Scout promoted: Woodsman II

Turn 39 (2830 BC)
Tech learned: Agriculture
Nidaros finishes: Worker

Turn 40 (2800 BC)
Research begun: Animal Husbandry
Nidaros begins: Settler


turnlogHere is your Session Turn Log from 3430 BC to 2800 BC:


Turn 20, 3400 BC: Barbarian's Panther (2.00) vs Fifth Element's Scout (2.90)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: Combat Odds: 11.1%
Turn 20, 3400 BC: (Animal Combat: +20%)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: (Feature: +20%)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: (Class Animal Combat: +100%)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: Fifth Element's Scout is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: Barbarian's Panther is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: Barbarian's Panther is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: Fifth Element's Scout is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: Barbarian's Panther is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: Barbarian's Panther is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: Barbarian's Panther is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: Fifth Element's Scout has defeated Barbarian's Panther!

Turn 28, 3160 BC: You have discovered Bronze Working!
Turn 28, 3160 BC: Barbarian's Lion (2.00) vs Fifth Element's Scout (2.45)
Turn 28, 3160 BC: Combat Odds: 26.2%
Turn 28, 3160 BC: (Animal Combat: +20%)
Turn 28, 3160 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 28, 3160 BC: (Class Animal Combat: +100%)
Turn 28, 3160 BC: Fifth Element's Scout is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 28, 3160 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 28, 3160 BC: Fifth Element's Scout is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 28, 3160 BC: Fifth Element's Scout is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 28, 3160 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 28, 3160 BC: Fifth Element's Scout is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 28, 3160 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 28, 3160 BC: Fifth Element's Scout is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 28, 3160 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 28, 3160 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 28, 3160 BC: Fifth Element's Scout has defeated Barbarian's Lion!

Turn 29, 3130 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 29, 3130 BC: Fifth Element adopts Slavery!
Turn 29, 3130 BC: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.

Turn 35, 2950 BC: Hinduism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 37, 2890 BC: Genghis Khan adopts Slavery!
Turn 37, 2890 BC: Barbarian's Wolf (1.00) vs Fifth Element's Scout (2.43)
Turn 37, 2890 BC: Combat Odds: 0.4%
Turn 37, 2890 BC: (Animal Combat: +20%)
Turn 37, 2890 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 37, 2890 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 37, 2890 BC: (Class Animal Combat: +100%)
Turn 37, 2890 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 31 (69/100HP)
Turn 37, 2890 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 31 (38/100HP)
Turn 37, 2890 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 31 (7/100HP)
Turn 37, 2890 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 31 (0/100HP)
Turn 37, 2890 BC: Fifth Element's Scout has defeated Barbarian's Wolf!

Turn 39, 2830 BC: You have discovered Agriculture!


EDIT: I started AH without thinking about it, wanting to use the pigs to grow Nidaros faster so that maybe we can whip. This can change to Writing, if desired.

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/Fifth_Element_SG004_BC2800_01.CivWarlordsSave)

Well, there's Genghis. Looks like he's got a nice FP city site to play with. I'm all in favor of a quick wiping-off-the-map. Who's with me?

Let the cult. borders expand over the copper, if we want to put a city with it in the FC eventually, fine, but we have too many plush city sites to consider doing it early. I think AH > Writing > Wheel at this juncture.

OK, moving on from the debacle that was SGOTM3...

I'm thinking these things:

We tech up as quickly as possible, trading aggressively the whole way.
We don't try to inhibit contact between other civs and Ghandi, so that the other civs will trade our techs to him.
If somebody declares on Ghandi, we are going to need to interdict their forces to protect him so he doesn't get wiped out.
We spar with Ghandi, but don't damage him too badly. Keep our own forces strong enough to stymie him defensively, but don't beat up on his homeland.
We'll also have to work to keep the other civs retarded somewhat, so that they don't capitalize on our tech trading to them and build their own ship before Ghandi does
Build wonders in appropriate places and then let Ghandi take them, in particular we'll want to do this with the space elevator. Can the Apollo Program be "taken"? Also, filling commerce rich cities with science-boosting improvements and then allowing them to be taken will help Ghandi. Labs boost spaceship production, so we'll want those heavily in our "gift" cities. We'll need lots of cities for this to work, so we should adopt a REX-like strategy to the extent possible without crippling our economy.
We should probably also try to build the UN, to eliminate any chance of somebody sneaking in with a diplo on us.
Once Ghandi is running at a high tech pace, we should start attacking other civs, either wiping them off entirely, or making them tiny and insignificant. Vassalizing would be bad, as this would cause declarations on Ghandi that we don't want.
War Weariness will be an issue, so we'll need as many things to reduce this as possible. Jails, Mount Rushmore, Police State civic, etc, etc. We can mitigate WW by not sending masses of troops to foreign lands to be killed.
Build a strong military that we can use to quickly take down civs that get to big for their britches, while blunting Ghandi's attacks.


So, tech up to alphabet quickly, make as many contacts as possible, and set a blistering tech pace so that we can spread it around.

Blubmuz, can you set a roster so we can get moving?

Tech pace will be the key, of course, and we'll want to minmise wars (in the world) so production is spent on contructive things. It might also be usefull to have someone like MM helping or leading the way techwise, and if he becomes a launch threat, sabotage/ kill him. Diplo will gain be interesting and important in this game.

I got the save, i'll play in 12 hours from now.

i copy/paste from my last post on SG3 thread:
A note about our playing rate: i propose that a game must be submitted in 72 hours MAX after the preceding submission, and if the player supposed to be UP do not post a "got it" in 24 hours MAX the "ball" pass to next player automatically.
My longest playing session never last more than 3 hours of effective play, taking careful notes, so the time is more than sufficient to post for next.
Otherwise we can "lost focus" on the game and make big mistakes.
If a player think to not be at his best, or to not have in mind the TEAM strategy, better he skip, or swap, or inform the team he will be in late and play when he's SURE to do his best, according to the TEAM strategy.

Finally, it would be nice if we all post something, also a "i'm here and watching our thread" every 72 hours from his last post, just to let the team know we are alive and (possibly) kicking.

Goodbye SG3, 4 we're arriving.

edit, 'cause crosspost with Sweeta:
yes, i'll set a rooster after my TS, for now let's say you're on deck, OK?

@ The Sansman:
sorry to have keep this game "in freeze", but from now on we're fully on this, and probably we'll do well this time, we're used to SS lost (sigh).

edit #2
Thanks for your comments in SG3 thread S. and M. (we crosspost like mad today).
I agree: we need to define a strategy, and i think for now we can use last Merum's post as a strategy.
Of course we can need to re-define seeing the game progresses, but some goals to achieve in 1 or 2 TSs are more than sufficient.
Last but not least, we don't have too much strategy needs tis time, no votes, just protect the bald-dwarf and find the best way to gave him techs and eventually good cities.

well those crossposts are killin' me:
your roster is OK, Merum, if someone has needs he can edit it.

Blubmuz, can you set a roster so we can get moving?

Here's one for you, Sweets:

Blubmuz - Up
Sweetacshon - On Deck
Civicide
Doom Train
BrianS
Sansman
Merum - Resting

heh, crossed with Blubmuz... Somebody yell out if this roster doesn't work for them. I think each player should post the updated roster at the bottom of their set report.

protect the bald-dwarf
:lol:

Yep, that roster is fine with me. I'll need a bit of time to look at the save and reread this thread.

I think each player should post the updated roster at the bottom of their set report.

Great idea. Also, I don't know if it was Merum or Muz, but someone mentioned the TSplayer posting a goals/todo list prior to playing, for comment or advice... another good idea.

TS played, the save

my notes:IT (40 - BC 2800)
I'm fine with AH, but i've changed the queue to a warrior (anyway we need an escort), waiting for the corn be irrigated, and a growth to s.4, due in 4 turns with some MM.

T43
after beeing seriously wounded by a lion in my first turn, our free scout escaped from another one, to be eaten by a third one (dammit)

T56
Judaism FiaDL ... guess who?
our friend Gandhi, and probably the Jew holy city expanded its borders over OUR fish...
we need to change plan about city 2, i suggest to settle where the settler is (blue circle 1W, over gold)We got horses (the pasture is due in 2 turns) the wheel due in 3, so skip turn for the worker and road ASAP, we can wipe Gengis with chariots, before he do with keshiks... unless we are in 3 in our continent, and he can be a good trading partner for the early techs.

after the wheel: Archery (we got an enemy at the door) -Writing, then the religious path to Confu: Myst-Poly (not Med, we can trade it)-priest
after this we'll decide if try the oracle for Confu, i think that try Col/Math for a CS slingshot is too risky.
We need to better explore our territory before settle city 3, if there's some seafood near the copper we can go there.
The autolog:Nidaros begins: Warrior
Scout defeats (0.55/1): Barbarian Lion

Turn 41 (2770 BC)

Turn 42 (2740 BC)
Scout loses to: Barbarian Lion (0.68/2)

Turn 43 (2710 BC)
Nidaros finishes: Warrior

Turn 44 (2680 BC)
Nidaros begins: Barracks
Nidaros grows: 4

Turn 45 (2650 BC)
Nidaros begins: Settler

Turn 46 (2620 BC)

Turn 47 (2590 BC)

Turn 48 (2560 BC)

Turn 49 (2530 BC)

Turn 50 (2500 BC)

Turn 51 (2470 BC)

Turn 52 (2440 BC)
Tech learned: Animal Husbandry

Turn 53 (2410 BC)
Research begun: The Wheel

Turn 54 (2380 BC)

Turn 55 (2350 BC)

Turn 56 (2320 BC)
Judaism founded in a distant land

Turn 57 (2290 BC)
Nidaros finishes: Settler

Turn 58 (2260 BC)

Turn 59 (2230 BC)

Turn 60 (2200 BC)
and a map i edited using 3 SSs:http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/51166/Ragnar.jpgi made a city plan, but after seen the indian borders i had to change plan, so when we'll decide for city 2 someone (me included) can post a map with a city plan, eventually using this image.

roster:
Sweetacshon - UP
Civicide - On Deck
Doom Train
BrianS (he's away until 26 or so, eventually swap with Sansman)
Sansman
Merum
Blubmuz - Resting

Sweeta, we need to discuss that damn city 2: despite that blue circle i think we can settle where the settler is, but there can be other choices ATM i don't see.

Other notes:
- WW seems to NOT be a problem (just look the city screen), probably since we're tied in war we never suffer it, at least for the war with the civ we're tied at.
- I've tried a game as Ragnar (low level, for my quattromaster) and the Berserkers ROCKS!!!
- All victory conditions are enabled except Diplomatic (from post #1) so, no worries about that.

12 turns for the settler? Did you chop it?

Good thing diplo is disabled, one less thing to worry about.

Given the score and the cultural push, looks like we've found baldy's capital. I was hoping he'd be on a different land mass from us.

Assuming that Ghandi's city is his capital, do you think we can wage a culture war there? There's lots of hills, we should be able to create cultural buildings pretty fast. If so, then we should settle on the original spot. Else, we should settle S of the E gold. We don't want to settle on gold, it's too wasteful.

I don't think WW will raise its head until we get troops in foreign lands, and begin to lose units.

12 turns for the settler? Did you chop it?

No, i just waited the corn was (almost) farmed (or irrigated, in civ3 style).

Given the score and the cultural push, looks like we've found baldy's capital. I was hoping he'd be on a different land mass from us.
Assuming that Ghandi's city is his capital, do you think we can wage a culture war there?

I guess it's his city2, i've seen small borders before he found Judaism.
I agree about not settle on gold, but i think we MUST avoid a cultural war: remember, we have to help him! :rolleyes:
so, i propose to settle "in place"

OK. We must get to the sugar/gem site before Ghandi or Ghengis get there and plop a city in a stupid place. To do this, we should warrior/settler(chopped) then get back on the barracks.

The citizen on the horses should be moved to the pond NW of the city, this will give us wheel in 2 rather than 3.

We will expand over the copper in 16 turns. Our worker should be ready to mine it right away. Let's not build too many warriors when we can quickly be building axes.

After that, we should continue to pump settlers and expand toward Ghandi, while building some military both to defend against the bald one, and to take of Ghengis as soon as possible. He won't contribute jack to the science pool, and his Keshiks will be a pain in our ass if we don't get rid of him quickly. Coastal sites are premium for us, as we get 3 gold for each coast tile we work.

Research should beeline toward alphabet, then we can backtrack for sailing and otherwise through trading, hopefully. Alphabet will give us a lot of trade clout if we get to it early, and we should be able to get back to tech parity if we slip behind.

Everybody should bone up on fast teching, because we want the pace to go quick quick quick.

On the upside, if we do become the tech merchants of the world, everybody should be reasonably friendly towards us. Getting to free religion as early as possible would be a bonus for us.

High tech priorities as I see them:

Alphabet
Code of Laws (We'll need courthouses to help defray the costs of a REX strategy)
Mathematics
Priesthood (Oracle build to grab CoL maybe?)
Iron Working (We have a lot of jungle to clear)

Our first forest chop should be the hill 2N of Nidaros, so that we can mine it and grab hammers for the city.

We should scout Ghandi's lands, then get all military out. If there is military present, Ghandi won't send his workers out to improve. Sansman has seen this close up in his OCC Marines SG. If there is going to be any fighting at all, it needs to be Ghandi coming to us.

Just because we're helping Ghandi, doesn't mean we have to roll over for him. He should grow at the pace we determine. He'll get the techs through trade on his own, plus, he researches faster than us. We need to get strong enough that we can easily repel any attacks he brings against us before we let him do anything else. I'm thinking that at any given point in the BCs, we should be about 150% his size and strength.

After we get a couple cities up, they should be building our military, while Nidaros cranks settlers to expand. Nidaros will reach it's happiness limit with one more pop(2 once gold is hooked up), and we won't be able to grow it past there, so we might as well inhibit growth by building settlers and workers. We should settle as close to Ghandi as possible first, leaving him just a little breathing room, and then fill in behind that after our frontier is established.

Based on the jungle placement, I'd say we were just north of the tropics on this map. That means we expand a little bit north, leaving some space for baldy, and then push south, first eliminating Ghengis, and then looking for as many contacts as possible.

I've got it, but I don't want to play until we've discussed a few things. Primarily: What is our basic long term strategy? Second: Do we want to kill Kahn?

I'm toying with the idea of expanding over this island and also off continent with the view of abandoning this one to Ghandi and living elsewhere. The question is whether Ghandi will do well enough himself (dammit he's given me enough trouble going for SS victories) with us just surviving near the end, and him controlling our well developed former cities. I just have the feeling that he'll put more effort into tech if we are not his neighbor. The other option is dictating terms by trading with his friends, etc, as we've discussed, but I find this risky... we're going to get all sorts of traded with enemy mods, and the last thing we want to do is get him into a war. It's just a thought and I'd like to hear opinions.

Kahn.... are we better fostering a friendship early, considering our current lack of trading partners? We might have to wipe him out later to give Ghandi free run .. but I'd prefer not to get into this mindset yet without further info. In the meantime we should concentrate on our rex... if we get too big, and the time is right we can "gift" a city or 2 to Ghandi. Too early, tho, and he may ioverrun us. We'll be walking a tightrope on this issue, I'd say.

I'll post a plan a bit later, and probably play tomorrow.

:sleep:

@ The Sansman:
sorry to have keep this game "in freeze", but from now on we're fully on this, and probably we'll do well this time, we're used to SS lost (sigh).


:coffee:

Sorry to the team to hear about the previous SGOTM outcome. I am glad that we can now concentrate on losing this game. ;) I was busy this weekend but I will look at the save tonight to try to give some meaningful opinions. As for keeping me waiting do not worry I have been to busy to do much lately.

Ok guys lets w.. eer lose this one:D.

I ve done some dot mapping using Blubmuz`s image.

I think tan is the best location for our 3x gold as it inlucludes corn in its border.

D. Blue is for 2x Sugar and Gems

Green city can be moved to 1NE depending on resources in dark area


http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/807/ragnarxs3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

OK DT, but my thoughts are a bit different:
Orange: 2W (where the settler is now) because it can grow with Nidaros pigs, otherwise it's a pain to wait for borders expansion for corn.
Blue: i thought to the same spot, because it's coastal, but there's NO production there ... i wonder about settle on the southern gems if we can have some hill in the FC.
Green: probably 1 NW, it's coastal.
Light blue: OK, especially if there's some seafood.
Pink (or whatever it is): no, too close to indian borders and the copper will be indian for sure, eventually 1 NW.
Yellow: seems OK, let's explore eventually 1S if no resources north, the overlap with Light blue is only 2 tiles.

I don't know if we'll abandon our core cities to India to live south or in another land mass (we must go for astronomy as a priority), but if we don't, we'll have to be prepared to attacks from air to pillage our resources.
IMHO this can be a good strategy, but we have to plan carefully FROM NOW if we wanna this works.
Wonders: aside the Oracle, that exaust himself with a free tech, it's worth to try some?
BTW, no marble or stone in sight.

Given that our "loss" isn't really going to come until well into the tech tree, we should, IMO, play the beginning of the game as if we're trying to gain an early space victory for ourselves. The only real difference is that we're trading techs nearly as soon as we get them, in the hopes that they'll find their way to Ghandi. Sure, we're going to give him fat cities, and try to foster his win, but for us to do that, first, we need to get strong ourselves.

So, that means wonders, all the little gimmicks to grab free techs and gain the lead in the tech race, and building strong cities and military, just like a regular game. That's the way I think we should approach at least the first 200 turns.

I also think Ghengis should be wiped, but maybe we should keep him around until we have contact with somebody else.

Dammit, I just wrote all this, then pressEd back without thinking, so I have to do it all again :sad:

I'm not really getting on top of yet another assignment, so I simply won't be able to play today, under the "not 100%" riule, so I'd better swap out, if that's ok. Sorry, guys, that's 2 in a row... :sorry:

I do have a map alternative, however. A couple I'm not happy with (esp pink), and it's a bit early to look at others, but.. here you go.
http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/4135/ragnarai1.jpg

**It's a bit hard to see, sorry, as I said, not 100%**

Good Sweeta, better 1 day late than a mistake at this stage.
but... i've magnified your map, and opened my save:

the more i look at the map, the more i'm convinced to NOT settle in the inland sea, and the more i'm conviced to settle on the desert hill without gold (that means where the settler is).

We need a city in the east coast, we just don't know the southern part of our continent, there can be impassable coasts.

I think that city 3 can settle 1W of the northern gems, if we can manage to settle city 4 1N of horses (your yellow? spot), to grab them, sugar, hills and to be coastal, if Gengis don't arrive first.
We can also invert the timing.
Too soon to decide other cities, let's buid 1 or 2 chariots for scout the territory ASAP, then settlers and workers.
my proposal:http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/51166/Ragnar2.jpg
Research: archery after the wheel, i hate this, but i don't want bad surprises... archers are powerful defenders, and cheap.

As I said before, we will expand over the copper in 16 turns. We will research Archery in 12. It seems to me to be very wasteful to spend beakers on this dead end tech when we will at most build one archer before we switch to building axes.

We will also have horses in about 5 turns (2 more for pasture + 3 for road). We can build chariots until the copper is laid in.

Stay the course for Alphabet.

The blue city should be 1S of where it is on Blub's dotmap. Where it is there, is too much overlap with red, and doesn't capture the S sugar. The yellow city should be 1SE, 1S of where it currently is on that map. That way it can get the horses and the gold south of there.

We have abundant commerce resources on this map that we can use to push research ahead very quickly. Let's not waste them by trying to share them between cities.

Just to explain , I was thinking ofd that spot 1NE of th top gold both for the health bonus of the river, and to share the production, not the commerce.
Let's not waste them by trying to share them between cities.
This is not a waste at all, imho. Let's face it, we need calendar for the sugar anyway, so that is not an issue. My only problem was the lack of hills over to the west. I agree, the blue should be 1 S if Blub's red city, or 1 N if using my city map.

I don't think archery is worth it, considering chariots, and then axes are around so soon. TPs should not forget, tho, that we are at war, so let's try and keep 2 units in the Ghandi border city in the near future, to avoid... complications.

To be honest, I didn't even see the red city in your dotmap, sweets. That's not bad city placement either, and makes decent use of real estate, too. In fact, it spreads the resources to more cities, which is maybe not such a bad idea.

I like the pink location too, scoring the clams and the sheep, with bonus coastal tiles.

Using your layout, we could feasibly put another location south, between and 1S of the gold and corn to get those too, but I'm sure Ghengis will beat us there, and we'll have to either raze or deal with his placement.

Yep, the red one is in there, and if you look closely, there is a light brown one south of Nidaros, as well :lol:
[/Where's Wally?]

Actually, I think you americanos call him Waldo, don't you?

The Blue city 1S means no hills = NO production.
But if the red one changes where Sweeta proposes, we can consider to move it 1E.
The yellow one has food and production, and commerce too: moving where Merum propose it's not bad, but too far from Nidaros and too close to Mongol borders... a little overlap between cities it's not so bad, and we spare to build a lot of roads.
The gold in south can be grabbed with a inner city, grabbing corn together.

OK about the research, chariots can be sufficient for now, and i forgot Nidaros will expand over copper.

What means the Wally/Waldo thing? (always remember i'm an ignorant stranger, but i like to learn new sayings, slangs and so on) something about fool or else?
I noticed the light brown spot S of Nidaros (against my white one), but let's wait, as i said we need to know our territory.
For now with the red, blue and yellow spots we have enough to do for next 2 turnsets.

@ Civicide & BrianS
still alive?

Where's Waldo/Wally? Is a popular children's series of pictures where one seeks a character named Waldo or Wally in a very busy picture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Where%27s_Wally

If the Wikipedia link is broken, sorry. I have to use a proxy to go to Wikipedia from China, since it's censored here. Sometimes the links get broken by the proxy.

Hope you enjoyed this pop culture tidbit for the day. :D

Thanks Merum, the link was OK.
Our teammates a bit less, no sign from them, i hope they're still alive.

well, it's a joke, but you'll never know...

I'm alive. I've been mostly offline for the past week or so.

Are we waiting for Sweetaschon to play, or is it my turn?

won't be able to play today, under the "not 100%" riule, so I'd better swap out, if that's ok.

I wanted to swap because of how busy I am right now, however I can play in umm.. 14 or so hours, unless I am drunk, in which case it'll be 24 hours, so you should play if you can.

What I haven't really worked out is the location for this city! Are we takinhg the NE, or the SE (in place), or DTs spot to the west? I vote NE, obviously.

I have already expressed my opinion, but i can be wrong...
So the majority will decide...

Nice to see you Civ, probably Brian will be back on 26 or so.

but after a look back at your drawings (early in the morning) i'm still conviced mine is the best.

I guess I'm going to toss my 2 cents in for Sweetacshon's map. I think it uses the land a little bit better. Sorry, Blub. :D

I agree with BLubmuz's placement of the gold city. If we want to make use of all three gold sites in the same city (and I think we should), it absolutely needs two food resources. Sweet's dotmap splits the gold between two cities, which is fine, but doesn't give us the massive early advantage that the gold x3 city site will. As for the rest of the cities I'm fairly ambivalent; it's a little too early to say. I vote BLubmuz's gold city (settler where it is) and re-evaluate later.

I am alive too. I just have not commented earlier due to my general lack of time this past couple of weeks. I will be looking at the save tonight. As for city placement I do not have enough experience with the game to comment any better then saying "What pretty boxes";).

I agree with BLubmuz's placement of the gold city. If we want to make use of all three gold sites in the same city (and I think we should), it absolutely needs two food resources. Sweet's dotmap splits the gold between two cities, which is fine, but doesn't give us the massive early advantage that the gold x3 city site will. As for the rest of the cities I'm fairly ambivalent; it's a little too early to say. I vote BLubmuz's gold city (settler where it is) and re-evaluate later.

That's a good point. I will now vacillate back to my original support of dropping the settler where he stands. :D Somebody play already!

OK, I'm playing now, settler will go in where he is.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/Fifth_Element_SG004_BC1750_01.CivWarlordsSave

My thoughts:

Eureka is founded in place. The pigs aren't hooked up, which is a little short sighted of us. We will need more workers, and iron working asap. I'm not sure that a barracks is what we want to be building.. who are we attacking in the near future? Not Ghandi... and Kahn is a bit far away right now. Anyway, it is close enough to finished that I may as well... finish it with a worker whip overflow :cool:

I reconsider this, as the timing just isn't going to work, so the rax is finished, and worker/ settler started. I end up whipping the settler, which will dent our research rate momentarily before the mines come online, but that's life. Just as the settler is done, barbs show their ugly heads.

The settler was heading over toward the west jungle, which needs to be discussed. It is, after all, jungle, and we don't have IW yet, but then again, if we leave it, we risk Ghandi getting... but then AGAIN, is that really a problem? Easier, and cheaper sites would be more toward the east coast N or S of Nidaros. The problem is barbs... I accidently sent both garrison warriors toward that barb. This may or may not be good... as we could take out the barb warrior on our mine before he pillages... I think a mine takes 6 turns to build, and a warrior would be less turns. This means, tho, that the settler is unescorted, if it wants to head into the jungle. This sort of risky mission is for the next TP, and will depend on our location discussion.

Lastly, there are a couple of things I wouldn't mind seeing: an exploring workboat, and granaries.. alphabet seems so far off.

The log:

Turn 61 (2170 BC)
Uppsala founded
Eureka begins: Warrior

Turn 62 (2140 BC)
Tech learned: The Wheel

Turn 63 (2110 BC)
Research begun: Writing
Nidaros grows: 5

Turn 64 (2080 BC)
Nidaros finishes: Barracks

Turn 65 (2050 BC)
Nidaros begins: Worker

Turn 66 (2020 BC)

Turn 67 (1990 BC)

Turn 68 (1960 BC)

Turn 69 (1930 BC)

Turn 70 (1900 BC)
Nidaros begins: Settler
Nidaros begins: Settler
Nidaros finishes: Worker

Turn 71 (1870 BC)
Eureka grows: 2

Turn 72 (1840 BC)

Turn 73 (1810 BC)
Nidaros begins: Chariot
Nidaros begins: Chariot
Nidaros finishes: Settler
Eureka finishes: Warrior

Turn 74 (1780 BC)
Eureka begins: Warrior

Turn 75 (1750 BC)


No pics? I didn't uncover anything new.. I DO have one of the barb warrior if you really want it...

I'm back (for a week anyway) and quite intrigued by this map.

Normally, my play would be to settle west to bottle Gandhi up, and then expand north-south. However, there are some trade-offs here. We don't know how much land Gandhi has to work with to his west and north, and we certainly want him to have some good city sites.

On the other hand, we don't but want him to be smothering us and threatening our cities. In that respect, the inland sea provides a couple of good chokepoints that make it easier for us to contain Gandhi if we can control those chokepoints. So in the end, I think we should settle west, and then focus on expanding north of Nidaros.

The jungle area to the south will be harder to develop. I'd probably focus on settling north first. I know everyone likes to settle on the coast, but I quite like the idea of creating a production powerhouse north of Nidaros by moving the light blue city site proposed by Blub (also on Sweeta's map) 1 square west. It gives us 3 additional hills for mines and also picks up a freshwater grassland for a farm. That city site will have an awesome combination of 6 hills, 5 grasslands, and 1 copper mine. After irrigation comes in it will kick out the hammers.

As I said the jungle area to the south will be slower to develop. Khan will probably plop some city sites there, and our first war with him can take those away. I do like the idea of killing Khan off. While we're out to lose this game, we're going to need to do so from a position of great strength, and this continent isn't big enough for Khan and us.

Welcome back, Brian! It's good to have you here. Since you're around for a week, I recommend a swap up for you in the turn order, so that you can get a set in before you have to go running off again. I know you've had some changes on your job, and I hope they've been good ones. I understand the kind of turmoil such changes can create. ;)

I still lean heavily toward grabbing the gem site. We want to control the tech pace early, and we need to be the tech leader so that Ghandi doesn't come in and overrun us early. I know the site is jungle, and will be slow developing, but once those gold mines come online, research is going to go way up. Once we get to Alphabet, We can either look for a trade for IW, or we can go back and research it ourselves. I'm sure that it won't take long by then.

Taking the gem site also solidifies our border, making it difficult for both Ghengis to get to Ghandi, and for Ghandi to fill in our rear areas with settlers. I think it's ok for him to be a little weak in the BCs, as long as we give him a little room to expand. It will push him to research seafaring techs, which will allow him to spread out that way. We can focus more on the military and science techs that will make us a research powerhouse.

Eventually, we'll likely give the gem city to Ghandi, but we should have it for now, I believe.

A Library in Eureka should be a very high priority. Also in the gem city.

Also, I'm afraid Ghengis will place crappy cities, and we'll have to raze them to get what we want, anyway.

OK Sweeta.
Now we'll have to decide the gems city: I think that if he red one is where i placed it, the gems city should be where i planned.

Brian's (welcome back on board) suggestion about the light blue spot is interesting, but if there's seafood we'll have to consider to grab it.
Anyway we have no problems to grab land N of Nidaros, we have to focus on south for now, for the reasons Merum posted: we don't want to conquer Mongol cities just to raze 'cause in bad spot.
Let's build chariots, to deal with barbs.

Seeing Brian is around for a week i post a new roster:

Civicide - UP
BrianS
Doom Train
Sansman
Merum
Blubmuz
Sweetacshon (Resting)

Edit, to remember the 24 h rule: 24 hours are gone, and no one posted an "i got it", so if Civ can't play, for any reason, the TS pass to Brian, and so on until there's someone that will play it in a reasonable time.

Got and opened the save.

I'll play today.

Ignore this post -- Civ has posted his got it so I'll play after his turnset.

Okay, as I see it, primary goals of my TS:

1) Figure out what the priority is with our settler. Found a city with it.

2) Develop Eureka into the workings of a commerce powerhouse.

3) Focus on defenses and possibly a scouting workboat out of Nidaros.

The city question is the most difficult. Working off of BLubmuz's dotmap, I see the appeal to his Blue Gems city (SW of Eureka), but I'm not a big fan of the overlap with Eureka. If we move it 1S we still have one hill to work with, but that's still very light for production. Alternately we can move it 1NW of BLubmuz's suggestion (1W from where Sweetaschon put his gem city). This has the advantage of:

- Less overlap with Eureka
- Fewer jungle tiles, meaning it becomes useful more quickly
- Possible resources we have yet to uncover

With the downside of

- It's more aggressive, closer to Gandhi, and more of a target for him (we don't want to provoke prolonged military interaction between us)
- It sacrifices a few grassland tiles for plains.
- It doesn't have sugar.

However, I don't think food will be a problem for the city, with all of the river+grassland tiles around, and I think the sugar will be better utilized to feed a more production-ready city, which we have in BLubmuz's yellow site (which already covers both sugar).

I think definitely settle the gems first, we still want the commerce to be able to push the global tech pace along as fast as humanly possible.

I think writing -> alphabet -> iron working for a tech path (if we can trade for Iron Working, more the better). Then, I think, trade for the worker+early religion techs, Literature, and make a grab for the Great Library.

Hi Civ, i support my blue spot, a bit of overlap doesn't count (when did you seen a city working ALL its tiles?).
If this is the only reason for your doubts, go ahead, and settle in th blue spot.
A settler for the yellow southern spot is a priority IMHO, then the exploring WB.
And don't forget some chariot, we'll face barb archers soon.

Okay, played. Nothing major, but one grrrrrr. First barb warrior was no problem, didn't move onto the mine, I moved a warrior onto the mine and the barb attacked & lost the next turn.

Then another barb warrior took out the chariot that I built. I attacked at 78%/4% and got schooled. Grrrrrrr.

Founded City #3, Uppsala, on BLubmuz's blue spot.

Otherwise very quiet. Cranking a settler out of Nidaros, Library in Eureka. A few warriors for some fogbusting.

Teh Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/Fifth_Element_SG004_BC1300_01.CivWarlordsSave)

I propose new rule for our team: never let Civicide fight anything :joke:
Dammit, Civ a chariot against a warrior?!? :spear:
I'll take a look at the save, then i'll post something less stupid than this.

I propose new rule for our team: never let Civicide fight anything
Oh, believe me. I feel the same way. I was screaming at my computer. "JUST LET ME WIN ONE!" I think the RNG on my computer is broken.

Oh, believe me. I feel the same way. I was screaming at my computer. "JUST LET ME WIN ONE!" I think the RNG on my computer is broken.

*snatches up Civicide's dice*

Here, use these from now on.
http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/1183/dicekr1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

:lol:

Edit: Oops, I think I just outed myself. :rolleyes:

I've got to say, I'm no fan of that Upsala site, with only one workable tile in the forseeable future, and already costing 2.3 maint. Also, it'll be hard to defend with hills nearby. I'll give everyone advance notice that I'll be pushing for the little used forts in this game. ;) Priorities, then imho, are IW and about 3 more workers, but don't forget a chariot or 2 (we are at war after all) and a wb.

I would have preferred to see Upsala in a different location myself. I don't understand the thing people have for overlapping cities. If you steal a resource from one city to use in another, IMO you weaken both cities. Sure, cities don't work all their tiles in the early game, but to share a tile, especially a food tile, simply slows the growth of both.

Anyway, Upsala should be the limit of our westward expansion, and I agree with Swwetacshon on the use of forts at the choke points, with some rapid reaction forces on the shared coast of the big lake to catch any galley-loads coming across.

It looks like Ghengis is expanding south, which is good news for us. Not only is he not glomming our chosen city spots at this time, it also means we have some room down there to grow without choking off Ghandi.

Let's get a chariot going so that we can explore Ghandi and see just what he's got available to him, and where. I think that's important for us to know.

I'm planning to play tonight. I haven't had a chance to open the save yet so don't have any specific plans, other than taking into account the statements above. If you have any other suggestions, please post them before 5pm PDT.

Dammit, Civ a chariot against a warrior?!?
Maybe we were too lucky in terms of war in SGOTM 3 and now its payback time to CIV IV:D:D

I liked the Upsala city site. Well balanced city near river.

Looking forward to see what Gandhi has in his borders

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/Fifth_Element_SG004_BC0925_01.CivWarlordsSave)

Played my turnset which was pretty uneventful. Upon completion of the settler, I sent him south to Blub's yellow site. On his way, he stopped to thank Mr. Kahn for cleaning out a barb village:

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/2816/sgotm41180bcuw7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Haithabu was settled a couple turns later, and who do we see to the east but Mr. Kahn with a city of his own in the jungle:

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/617/sgotm41120bcku4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

By now the chariot was complete, so off I went to explore exotic India:

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/3719/sgotm4970bcrw9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Hmmm, that trip didn't last long.

Finally, Khan suggested a trade, but I told him what he could do with his sheep.

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/4867/sgotm4955bckhaneatsheepyc6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

And that's the end of this picture story...NEXT!!

Yeah, the RNG can be painful, especially when it kills 33% of your forces! But at least it upholds the appearance of randomness. (That's small consolation, isn't it? ;))

I agree with Merum on the drawbacks of sharing resources, especially in a game which will be won by space race, and so cities WILL get up to around 20 pop. That being said, Upsala is not too bad, it's just surounded by jungle right now, and so we have to spend our resources on IW and workers using many turns to clear it, rather than fostering a science lead.

*sigh* x posted with Brian... disregard.

Okay I got the save...

I think it is useless to scout N because if you look this SS carefully you should see the path to Gandhi s lands blocked by mountains. So i ll send him to GK to see if he has access to India.
http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/9680/civ4screenshot0014sx1.th.jpg (http://img185.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot0014sx1.jpg)

What are your suggestions for tech after Alphabet?

I suggest IW after Alpha. We need to clear the jungle. I'd also settle north in the production city I suggested 1W of Blub's light blue city site. We don't have any particularly strong production cities.

I recommend we try to trade for IW, and if not, I guess we gotta research it. Get as much gold online as you can to speed research, and don't forget to MM for commerce. Every beaker helps.

I agree with Merum's last post about research.

I would add to explore north, i'm curios to see if any seafood near the light-blue spot, otherwise, we'll take the super-production, non-coastal city as Brian (IANW) suggests.
To add more, we can't be sure the mountains are blocking the western (indian) side, there're some hills near the coast, and we need to verify if there's a passage to north-west (this remembers something to me).
As a side benefit, an exploring chariot can fogbust and protect (if not driven by Civicide :lol: ).
Better build another one to explore south (and to keep away GK, you'll never know...).

Nice to see i was right about the Jew holy city, it's Gandhi's city 2.

About Uppsala: the best site was probably 1W-1NW, to grab seafood, gems and the 2 hills, but with an enemy so close... pillaging, landings, too dangerous and annoying.
Lookin' at the map i'm convinced we have choosen the best city sites avaible, let's hope for iron in some city FC.

I'm not convinced, DT, it is possible that there is more land north that can go around the mountains, but it is not a priority to check it... we should probably do so with the 1st galley, imo.

We definately need IW, if we can't trade for it, research it. I'd prefere 2 workers before another settler, to clear out all that damn jungle, but don't forget the boats.

Okay turnset finished and save is up.

Here is a report


Turn 1: Done some MM for commerce. Turned off food and hammer emphasize option in Nidaros. Since majority of you wants to check that hill i ll direct chariot to there. But i still insist there no way to Gandhi there if you look closely to hill on left you should see the water above it.

Turn 2: Chariot trained started worker in Nidaros

Turn 3: Alphabet researched started IW. GK doesnt have writing yet so i gave it to him exchange of sailing which enables us to construct our UB Trading Post. Also he don t want to trade IW.

Turn 6: Oh barb spear in north. Gave Flanking to Chariot.
http://img486.imageshack.us/img486/2227/civ4screenshot0016fw0.th.jpg (http://img486.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot0016fw0.jpg)

Turn 7: Chariot was killed by barb spear.

Turn 10: Oracle built in far away land. There is a marble near Old Sarai.
http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/8387/civ4screenshot0017xk6.th.jpg (http://img104.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot0017xk6.jpg)

Turn 11: Called fogbuster warrior back because spear is coming for him. Sent an Axe to deal with spear.

Turn 12: Gk wants OB. I rejected because that ll allow him to settle in our northern lands. Started library in Nidaros(was mistake I should ve start WB)

Turn 14: GL completed in far away land. There is hut near GK.

Turn 15: IW is in, lets clear those jungles. 26 g from hut. Changed the prodcution of Nidaros to WB for the fish and scouting job.

http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/596/civ4screenshot0019al2.th.jpg (http://img377.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot0019al2.jpg)


Turn log:


Turn 106, 910 BC: You have discovered Alphabet!

Turn 107, 895 BC: You have discovered Sailing!

Turn 110, 850 BC: The borders of Eureka have expanded!
Turn 110, 850 BC: Barbarian's Spearman (4.00) vs Fifth Element's Chariot (2.00)
Turn 110, 850 BC: Combat Odds: 99.1%
Turn 110, 850 BC: (Combat: -100%)
Turn 110, 850 BC: Fifth Element's Chariot is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 110, 850 BC: Fifth Element's Chariot is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 110, 850 BC: Fifth Element's Chariot is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 110, 850 BC: Fifth Element's Chariot is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 110, 850 BC: Barbarian's Spearman has defeated Fifth Element's Chariot!

Turn 113, 805 BC: The Oracle has been built in a far away land!

Turn 117, 745 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Haithabu!
Turn 117, 745 BC: The Great Lighthouse has been built in a far away land!

Turn 118, 730 BC: You have discovered Iron Working!

Turn 119, 715 BC: The villagers give you gold! You have received 26 gold!


SAVE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/Fifth_Element_SG004_BC0715_01.CivWarlordsSave)

Notes:
- There is a fish in North.

- Barb city established east of GK.

- I suggest Pottery for next tech to take full advantage of financial trait as soon as possible.


Sansman (up)
Merum
Blubmuz
Sweetacshon
Civicide
BrainS
Doom Train (resting)

Godd TS, DT, pity for the chariot, but against a spear...

I didn't opened the save, what fish (WB)?

I suggest to settle 1N of iron, that will be a production powerhouse.

we can wait to settle the light-blue spot, wherever we decide.

Better use axes for exploring and fogbusting, as usual, wait to promote.

I agree with Blubmuz's suggestion to settle 1N of iron. That is a very nice spot indeed.

I didn't opened the save, what fish (WB)?

If you look at last SS there is fish east of iron. But if we settle 1N of iron we are not gonna get it but i agree to settle 1N.

Nidaros can't grow anymore until we get gems online. Turn on avoid growth, or MM away from food to slow it, or build a worker or settler. Or, we can whip something, but that will lose us commerce while the city regrows.

Eureka is going to need more culture or its borders will be pushed. We need to pay attention to this, or we'll lose our gold.

If we settle 2N of the iron, then we can put a city on that little peninsula and get the fish, and share the sheep? There won't be too much overlap, I don't think.

It's getting to be that time when we start thinking about slapping GK around. At least he put Old Sarai in a fairly decent spot for us. :D

I don't think we can scout with a workboat... If Ghandi has sailing, it will get munched by a galley.

Hmm... 1N of the iron ... now where did I see that suggestion before? :)

OK. I will retrieve the file tonight and play (I assume 15 turns unless something happens, ie war).

Okay turnset finished and save is up.
Notes:
- There is a fish in North.

- Barb city established east of GK.

- I suggest Pottery for next tech to take full advantage of financial trait as soon as possible.


I have yet to open the save but will do so tonight. I guess I should start a Settler. Maybe gather some troops for the Barbarian city, I did not see a picture of it (could be due to momentary blindness) so I will post one before I do anything. Finally Tech wise I will start Pottery.

Nidaros can't grow anymore until we get gems online. Turn on avoid growth, or MM away from food to slow it, or build a worker or settler. Or, we can whip something, but that will lose us commerce while the city regrows.

Eureka is going to need more culture or its borders will be pushed. We need to pay attention to this, or we'll lose our gold.

If we settle 2N of the iron, then we can put a city on that little peninsula and get the fish, and share the sheep? There won't be too much overlap, I don't think.

It's getting to be that time when we start thinking about slapping GK around. At least he put Old Sarai in a fairly decent spot for us. :D

I don't think we can scout with a workboat... If Ghandi has sailing, it will get munched by a galley.
I will follow these suggestions as well. I also agree that we should :splat: Genghis soon.

There are ~ 9hours before I play so if any of you want to make some points please do so.

Barbarian City :(

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u32/The_Sansman/SGOTM-04/Civ4ScreenShot0000.jpg

I will assume that it is too far to try to take, thus I will concentrate on developing an our Cities and some troops for Old Sarai. I think we could use the Marble. I do not think Genghis has more than three cities.

Don't worry about the barb city just now, it's so far away that taking it would kill our research through maintenance costs.

Build up a goodish force of axes as a contingency force, then start on the settler for the iron spot before Nidaros grows. Keep clearing the jungle, and work to get those gems on. As soon as one mine is hooked to the trade network, we can let Nidaros grow again.

Opening the trade window will let you see how many cities Ghengis has.

I hit enter and already Genghis came with this :deal::

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u32/The_Sansman/SGOTM-04/Civ4ScreenShot0001.jpg

Since I really hate giving techs away I thought I would see what he has available. He offered this for Alphabet.

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u32/The_Sansman/SGOTM-04/Civ4ScreenShot0002.jpg

I also took this picture so all of you can see the techs:

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u32/The_Sansman/SGOTM-04/Civ4ScreenShot0003.jpg

I have stopped for now to await the team's answer. Though personally I would make the deal so that we do not have research them since we could use at least two of them immediately.

Due to the time I do not believe I will be able to continue play until tomorrow night. Sorry if I am delaying the game with these silly questions.

Don't worry about stopping to ask questions, Sansman. We'd much rather have somebody consult the team about a big decision (like trading away alphabet) than to have us all end up with a less than optimal result.

My own personal opinion is that we should let this one sit on the back burner for a while, and see if he researches anything else in the meantime. Our workers are going to be busy for a bunch of turns hooking up gems, so the worker techs are not immediately useful to us. Additionally, any of those techs, should we need them, can be researched very quickly.

I know we want to get alphabet out there early, but not so early that we can't get good return on our investment. Let's hold out for something better, like, say, Mathematics.

Also, if we're going to be scouting by sea, we need to do it soon, or we'll be hemmed in by the borders of Old Sarai and the hostile Indian waters. We can take our chances by sailing a galley into Indian waters, but if Old Sarai expands, we won't be able to scout south without making an OB with GK.

I am not sure we should be in a rush to attack Kahn... there is still alot of space between us, and we are still not sure of the situation to the north ie if india can get around there. I'd prefer to get a few more workers (broken record) put our cities to the north, and get some cottages in. Let Kahn stick a few cities in and build his wonder (I'm assuming that's why he settled the marble??) To add to this, he's our only trading partner!!

I don't want to rush to attack Khan, I just want to be prepared to attack Khan. He's aggressive, and who knows what he'll try to pull, especially if we inhibit his expansion by not signing an OB with him. We need a strong army anyway, so let's build one with a plan.

Agree, don't rush an attack, but be prepared.
We can research Math on our own, then contruction.
I'll trade alpha 4 techs pay well, IMHO.

And GK can trade with G., and this is what we want (or not?).

yes, we need workers and settlers.

I don't catch Civ's post "1N of iron...."????

I agree with other posters; wiping Genghis is a middle term goal, but nothing that needs to be accomplished immediately.

As for the "N of Iron" comment, look at post #26.

OK I have played 14 turns, why? You will see.

Seeing that there was no real decision made about the Trade offer with Genghis I decided that I would not do it for now. So I went to visit the Barbarian Town and found this.

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u32/The_Sansman/SGOTM-04/Civ4ScreenShot0004.jpg

I got so excited I hit enter and found this.

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u32/The_Sansman/SGOTM-04/Civ4ScreenShot0005.jpg

:gripe:

OK not a problem I will just go back with the Chariot and scout out the other side of Genghis's Territory. The Work Boat was sent out to further the water side. Genghis then came for this.

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u32/The_Sansman/SGOTM-04/Civ4ScreenShot0006.jpg

To which I agreed.

Mathematics came in.

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u32/The_Sansman/SGOTM-04/Civ4ScreenShot0007.jpg

I picked Horse Back Riding for Horse Archers. I think we should build them to help suppress Genghis and to keep him from getting Horses until we find someone else to trade with. I stopped there so no beaker have been invested next player can change if they want to.

Just so that everyone can see where we stand:

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u32/The_Sansman/SGOTM-04/Civ4ScreenShot0008.jpg

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u32/The_Sansman/SGOTM-04/Civ4ScreenShot0009.jpg

We have two settlers in the build queue. The barbarian City looks good but it is a fair distance from us so taking it might not be so good. Something to think about. We can still make the trade with Genghis too.

Turn 120 (700 BC)
Eureka begins: Settler

Turn 121 (685 BC)

Turn 122 (670 BC)
Nidaros finishes: Work Boat

Turn 123 (655 BC)

Turn 124 (640 BC)

Turn 125 (625 BC)
Chariot defeats (4.00/4): Barbarian Warrior

Turn 126 (610 BC)
Nidaros grows: 7

Turn 127 (595 BC)

Turn 128 (580 BC)

Turn 129 (565 BC)
Warrior loses to: Barbarian Spearman (2.56/4)

Turn 130 (550 BC)
Nidaros begins: Trading Post
Nidaros begins: Settler
Nidaros begins: Settler
Nidaros finishes: Library
Axeman defeats (4.40/5): Barbarian Spearman

Turn 131 (535 BC)

Turn 132 (520 BC)
Tech learned: Mathematics
Haithabu grows: 3

Turn 133 (505 BC)
Research begun: Horseback Riding


The save.

Again i suggest to go for Pottery its just 3 turns away.

NExt player should see if GK has iron or not. If not we don t need HBR.

OK, In this turnset, these are my intentions:

Switch away from HBR, and research currency, heading for CoL. MM for commerce to bring research time down.
Trade either Mathematics for Pottery/Mysticism, or make the blockbuster alphabet trade for all 4.
Settle 2N of the iron, unless somebody has strenuous objections. I'd like to be able to get the fish. The downside of 2N is that it gives us 1 tundra tile in the FC.
Build military for defense and in preparation for an attack on GK. This will be a mix of axes, and spears to handle the inevitable keshiks.
Either hold the second settler in reserve, or put a city down somewhere, depending on the impact of the iron city on our research.
I may need also to sign OB with GK, so we can continue to explore with the WB.
Get a trireme built in Haithabu so we can explore Ghandi's waters.


I'm not sure why we're roading to Old Sarai, when we're already connected with GK by the rivers. That guy should be mining gems.

I'm going to play in 4 or 5 hours, so, let me hear your thoughts by then.

EDIT: After thinking about it, I'm going to do the math trade first, wait a turn, and then see what's available higher up the ladder for Alphabet.

Merum, i see why you want settle 2N instead of 1: settle in the light-blue spot to grab the fish and avoid overlap.
This can be OK for me, but why not settle 1N-1NE? we'll loose some forest, but we'll gain some sea.
Second option: settle 1N and the overlap with the light-blue city will be only 4 tiles (probably a problem at size 17 or more).

I always forgot to talk about, but, especially now that we control the NW, we can sign OB with GK, to see what resources he has, especially horses or metals.

Trading: i'm not sure which is better, but probably i'll try Alpha first, maybe he can have some interestin techs from G. and be an "intermediary".

I will not use the WB for deep exploring, better build our fast (we already have our UB?) triremes, that are upgradable to caravels and send 1 N and 1 S or better, build one in in Nidaros and one in the horses/sugar city.

Tech-wise, i'm afraid we'll can't be the first to CoL: if you think we can grab it, let's try the currency route (this remembers me SG2), otherwise we have to pick the Optics route, to have contact with the other continent(s) and to gain the circumnav. bonus.

@Civ.
yes, i didn't remember your #26 (i made good use of it to write this), i thought to something more complicated...

I'm after currency for the markets, which will boost our commerce, and therefore research. If we can get CoL first and grab confucianism, that's a bonus, but to me, it's just what makes sense to research after currency, and the AIs will pay through the nose to get it via trade. After CoL, we can go after either philo, or CS.

The WB is already south of GK, might as well continue to explore with him. Our first trireme is a full turnset away, and I have a sneaking suspicion that that body of water there may be an inland sea, which will mean we don't want to bang a lot of ships out there.

IMO, 1N1NE still crowds the fish peninsula too much, and we don't really benefit that much. 2N, while giving us a tundra, also gives us 3 coastals, covers the iron, the sheep, and the corn. It's better for the late game when we have lots of pop to work tiles, and doesn't really hurt us on production.

I'd also cancel that sheep for gold trade with GK when we get the chance. I hate giving our opponents a happy resource.

Merum, 3 coast without LH aren't workable, only 1F3g and tundra 1F.
Then, a bit of overlap changes nothing, 4 good tiles overlapped (and this will be the overlap) are better than 4 unworkable.
In addiction, with LH and harbor we can have more commerce.

I agree with your thoughts about research, let's see if you're right about the inland western sea.

Big news in CFC...
look @ this in my post #4 there're all the links you need to be informed.

and this

:band: and we won the precious WOODEN SPOON in SGotM 3 :band:

My notes
Pre-Flight
Switch research to Currency. By micromanaging the cities, I'm able to get research down to 13 turns from 18. With a library due in Haithabu next turn, it will imrpve further. Time to the settler in Nidaros is up to 8 turns from 7, but the one in Eureka will pop first anyway.
Cancel the worker building the road to Old Sarai and send him up for gem and jungle duty at Uppsala.
I decide to trade Alphabet for the 4 techs. We just weren't going to get good value, beaker-wise, out of Math at this point. Hopefully he'll trade with Ghandi, they're both Jews.
I can't cancel the sheep for gold deal yet. As soon as it's up, I'll squash it.
I hit enter.

T1 (134)
Research on currency drops to 11 with the library. A trireme is started in Haithabu.
Move the scouting forces westward.
Genghis has only meditation to trade for math. I know we want to get techs out quick, but damn, I ain't willing to get ripped off. I hold off for a few turns.

T2 (135)

T3 (136)
Genghis comes asking for OB, and I sign it with him, sice I now need it to continue exploring with the chariot.

T4 (137)
Now Genghis has Poly, but he stubbornly refuses to trade either for math. What a dumbass.


T5 (138)

T6 (139)
I learn that I was wrong, that body of water is not an inland sea, but a large bay. Our land exploration is pretty much over now.

T8 (141)
Confucianism FIADL. Damn, that was fast. Maybe not so much for CoL after currency.
Karakorum is already size 12. Good god.
Our exploring workboat spies an unpopped goody hut on the other side of the mouth of the bay. We probably can't get to it. It also looks like a dark purple border there, We'll know next turn.

T9 (141)
The borders I thought were purple turned out to be more mongol. He must have a galley someplace, I don't see how he could have gotten there overland.
Karakorum is now size 10, something got whipped. Looks like an archer, maybe.


T11 (143)
I find out why Genghis wouldn't trade us for math. He was researching it. *sigh* Should have went with my first instinct. He's now three techs up on us. We need to start thinking about killing him.

T12 (143)
Currency comes in. I start construction, so we can build cats for Genghis.

T13 (144)
We can now trade Currency to Ghenghis, but I see red borders past his. I'll wait a turn to see what that opens to us.

Autolog

Turn 133 (505 BC)
Research begun: Currency
Tech learned: Mysticism
Tech learned: Pottery
Tech learned: Archery
Tech learned: Masonry
Haithabu finishes: Library

Turn 134 (490 BC)
Haithabu begins: Trireme
Uppsala grows: 4

Turn 135 (475 BC)

Turn 136 (460 BC)

Turn 137 (445 BC)

Turn 138 (430 BC)
Eureka finishes: Settler

Turn 139 (415 BC)
Eureka begins: Axeman
Axeman defeats (4.40/5): Barbarian Warrior

Turn 140 (400 BC)
Nidaros finishes: Settler
Confucianism founded in a distant land

Turn 141 (385 BC)
Nidaros begins: Trading Post
Haithabu's borders expand

Turn 142 (370 BC)

Turn 143 (355 BC)
Tech learned: Currency
Uppsala grows: 5

Turn 144 (340 BC)
Research begun: Construction

Turn 145 (325 BC)
Contact made: Carthaginian Empire


I stop early, because there are some things to be discussed. We have trade options for currency: We can get HBR, Poly, and 80g from Genghis. We could then pick up meditation and 10g from Hannibal for it, but that's a ripoff. CoL and MC are red at this time, he's building wonders.

Settler #1 has arrived at the 1N site. Since there still seems to be some debate as to where exactly to put this city, I decided to just stop and allow further discussion. However, looking at the map again, and seeing that GK has fish in the south, which will eventually be ours, I'm now really leaning toward 2N1E as the spot. It's coastal, which means we could put a trading post there, and looks like an all around killer site.

Settler #2 is heading for the gold between Haithabu and GK. He picked up an axe along the way for protection.

GK has no metals that I could see.

Eureka is currently stagnated to work the gold, one might consider moving somebody back to food, but growth will be slow.

Next player is set to start banging out markets, so don't forget to.

Also, I forgot to cancel the gold/sheep deal. Please feel free to do so now. :blush:

The submission log, if anybody cares: Turn 133, 505 BC: You have discovered Mysticism!
Turn 133, 505 BC: You have discovered Pottery!
Turn 133, 505 BC: You have discovered Archery!
Turn 133, 505 BC: You have discovered Masonry!

Turn 134, 490 BC: The Temple of Artemis has been built in a far away land!

Turn 139, 415 BC: Fifth Element's Axeman (5.50) vs Barbarian's Warrior (2.00)
Turn 139, 415 BC: Combat Odds: 99.9%
Turn 139, 415 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 139, 415 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 139, 415 BC: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 139, 415 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 32 (68/100HP)
Turn 139, 415 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 32 (36/100HP)
Turn 139, 415 BC: Fifth Element's Axeman is hit for 12 (88/100HP)
Turn 139, 415 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 32 (4/100HP)
Turn 139, 415 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 32 (0/100HP)
Turn 139, 415 BC: Fifth Element's Axeman has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 140, 400 BC: Confucianism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 141, 385 BC: The borders of Haithabu have expanded!

Turn 143, 355 BC: You have discovered Currency!
Turn 143, 355 BC: Uppsala has grown to size 5
Turn 143, 355 BC: New Tech(s) to trade: Genghis Khan

Turn 144, 340 BC: Gandhi has 160 gold available for trade
Turn 144, 340 BC: Genghis Khan has 130 gold available for trade
Turn 144, 340 BC: St. Augustine (Great Prophet) has been born in a far away land!

And... the Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/Fifth_Element_SG004_BC0325_01.CivWarlordsSave)

Blubmuz - Up
Sweetacshon - On Deck
Civicide
BrainS
Doom Train
Sansman
Merum - Drinking

Good TS Merum

GK has no metals that I could see.

Hmm good news. We can eliminate him easily now.

Wooden Spoon huh. At least we have something to show after 3 SGOTM`s:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Wooden spooners... yee hah! I notice that even with our ambitious 1700 finish that we wanted it was still no laurel. OK, so #4

Kahn: I am just not sure we should kill him... and I get less sure each TS. He is Ghandi's only friend right now, with +4/+5 relations. I think he might be the tech broker we need for getting our knowledge to Ghandi. I'd prefer stopping construction and researching for tech/commerce (are we not going for TGLib?) We COULD roll over him now (soon), but what does that really gain us in the grand scheme of things? I'd prefer to stay good friends and trade, even adopting judaism, and hit him later when Ghandi has enough friends - if at all. This brings up the question: Have we all agreed on discarding the cities on the home island, at some later date, or are there other strategies?

If this is the case, there are 2 things we need to do to achieve this:
1. Develop good cities for Ghandi.
2. Find a new home where we can live in isolation while Ghandi rips it up.

1. Well, we are attempting this, but more cottages.. perhaps some wonders.. really, the two questions are When do we hand over? Do we add Kahn's territory to ours before handover?
2. I'm imagining a city or 2 in the middle of a group of civs with a different religion to, and possibly dislike toward, Ghandi. More exploration is neccessary.

OK, I just wanted to see some strat disacussion in here, but onto this turnset. What are your thoughts on cities?
Yellow first, then blue, red's a bit of a filler.
http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/1395/civ4screenshot0096uu5.jpg
In the south, where is the settler going?
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/5545/civ4screenshot0097pb0.jpg


You'll note there is a Indian trireme heading south.. we should whip a trireme in the capital immediately to save the fishing boats. While we're at it whip the library in Upsala. I'm also thinking that Eureka should borrow the wheat from Upsala if we want it to grow, at least until CS so we can chain some farms in there. Again, I say, we only have 3 workers, with soon to be 6 cities, it's ridiculous. At LEAST have as many workers as cities, and with this much jungle, more.

Techs.. we should hold off on the currency trade just a little to find another partner, imho. If we can find one of calendar, MC or monarchy, I'd be happy, of course as well as the low religious techs. We haven't really discussed the medium term tech plan, but short term, I'd like to see CS for beureau an irrigation, and calendar for all those resources we have. I'd like to switch right now, but I've already voiced my opinion on conquest.

OK, that's all (and far too much ;))

Good TS, Merum, nice you stopped to listen the team.
I got (not yet opened) the save, i think i'll play tonight or tomorrow.
I agree with Sweeta yellow spot (is the one i suggested) and with the red one, too.
No ideas for next southern city, let me see the map.
I'll take Sweeta's suggestions about trireme in Nidaros and library in Eureka.

Strat thoughts:
Build a wonder is not so easy without marble and stone, and with all that workers to build (i agree, usually 1worker/1city is good, but with all that jungle 2 more are necessary, that means 8 total with 6 cities).

Research-wise I'm undecided, but i'd like to go for the optics path.

GK: yes, especially if he's without metals and horses we don't need to rush his desctruction, anyway we must be prepared, and Hannibal can be an hard opponent.

Agreed on the yellow spot for the north settler. I had the green spot in mind for the south settler. Too much desert on the pink spot.

You may have a point about keeping GK around, since he's such good friends with Ghandi, but we still need to grow if we're going to become a tech powerhouse. Unless we find a big empty island or continent real soon, it's going to come down to him or us.

If we go Judaism to keep friends with GK in the meantime, then maybe Hannibal is the first target, but he's got a huge tech lead on us already. Hannibal is also a huge risk to us given that he's up on tech and is on the same land mass as Ghandi. A war between them would be very bad for our bespectacled friend.

If we do decide to not whack GK, then let's grab Nubian ASAP so he can't get to the iron there.

Calendar leading to astronomy would be a good research path, since we have lots of sugar that we can use with calendar. At some point we need to get civil service and machinery so we can build berserkers. Construction is not very far away and with cats we would be in much better shape if somebody starts a war with us, or vice versa. Change it up if you like, but we do have beakers in it.

I still think we should get at least some hammers for clearing jungle. It's wood, isn't it? *grumbles*

No, clearing jungle doesn't gives a single hammer... probably it's supposed to be more a marsh than a true jungle.

I agree about research: i'll finish construction, then the path to optics, or calendar before?

Agree about the southern city too, the green spot is OK, a bit of an "aggressive city", we'll soon have a "close borders spark tension" with GK.

Also, I think that even if we don't take GK off, I still want Old Sarai. A limited objective war, followed by extorting some techs from him for peace, probably wouldn't kill us, now would it? :D I supposed we could take it with culture, but that would take forever, and still be uncertain. There's also marble just south of Old Sarai.

Whipping a trireme in Nidaros would cost 3 pop, and that's a painful hit to take. Maybe whip the trading post (1 pop) and put the overflow into trireme? I dunno.

We need calendar for astronomy, and so might as well pick it up along the way, unless we can trade for it. The sugar will help us to grow.

Blub, I see you're a quartermaster, and rank 17th overall! :goodjob: I can't even imagine pulling off a Deity win.

My fault, i didn't opened the save before write, but if we not own a TP in Nidaros, good point, i don't want to lost 3 pops, and a trireme can loose against another one.
Better build 2 and a WB, let's see.

Stupid me, we can have marble.
Not in my TS, but a war with GK can't be limited to this, so let's vote:

1 - no war at all
2 - limited war for marble
3 - war for elimination of GK

where 2 and 3 are not intended with gunships, but in 1 or 2 TS after mine.
I'll wait the end of my TS to vote.

I fell like a fool in the CFC April's fool... but a damn good prepared one.

Thanks, i'm pretty proud to be a quattromaster, but Deity it's not so difficult with HC in a duel pangea map.
ways more difficult was/are the gauntlets.

TS played, just a word before my notes: no vote neededIT (145 - BC 325)
tour of our cities (well, not much time on it)
N. - I don't want whip 3 pops in N. 'cause G. trireme... i'll whip the TP in next turn to have the max from the overflow, then a trireme, and a second one if G, keeps its on our clams i don't want loose a ship for just damaging.
E. - i'll finish the axe, then a worker, it's not growing anyway.
U. - library coss only 1 pop, i whip it now, worker with the overflow.
H. - AGAIN!!! :mad: dammit a trireme without our TP... a waste, i switch to a worker, then TP, then trireme.

i'll settle as posted.
There's stone near Ningh-hsia, and horses in New Sarai's FC (island)
GK already has monarchy, he's got wineries

Trade currency for Medi+HBR+130g with GK, too many techs we can't see.
This wasn't posted, so i take my own decision, hope you'll agree.
OB with Hanni

t146
i guess you'll be glad to know that the "blue circles" are where we planned our new cities.

t147
Birka founded, start library
GK has horses also in K. FC, and a combo trireme/galley is approaching Uppsala, sent our fresh axe there.

t148
B. founded, start library.
G. landed 2 swords CR1, C1 on our gems chariot there for protection, other one ready to join
please, look at the other side of the bay... 2 gems, gold and iron in 4 tiles
met Washington, signed OB.

t149
lost scouting chariot to 2 barb archers

t150
bad news: IBT GK asked for 60g, i refused, so he DoW us... i'm a bit worried... more than a bit :eek:
soon started spear in N., but it takes a life before he arrives in B.

t151
the goos new is that i eliminated the 2 swords loosing only an unpromoted chariot

t152
nothing, but 4 indian triremes around our borders... and a galley, i can't see if it's the unloaded one or if it's freshly loaded (probably the first option)

t157
first keshik attacks, our C2 axe luckily resists.
dammit, i forget to switch to TP after the worker so I (grrrrrr :mad: :mad: ) built a trireme without TP (oh, well i was distracted by the war)

t158
finally, a pretty good defence in B.

t160
Hanni proposes Calendar+40g for currency, i quickly accepted.

t161 (BC 85)
IBT GW (not Bush) asked for contruction, i refused.
pillaged the road to Old Sarai, at least GK can't build nothing more dangerous than archers and cats there... yes, cats, he's got construction

stopped herethe save, and the autolog Haithabu begins: Trading Post
Haithabu begins: Worker
Tech learned: Horseback Riding
Tech learned: Meditation
Uppsala finishes: Library

Turn 146 (310 BC)
Uppsala begins: Barracks
Uppsala begins: Worker
Nidaros finishes: Trading Post
Eureka finishes: Axeman

Turn 147 (295 BC)
Nidaros begins: Trireme
Eureka begins: Worker
Birka founded
Birka begins: Library

Turn 148 (280 BC)
Bjørgvin founded
Bjørgvin begins: Library
Chariot defeats (1.28/4): Barbarian Archer
Chariot loses to: Barbarian Archer (2.10/3)

Turn 149 (265 BC)
Contact made: American Empire
Nidaros finishes: Trireme

Turn 150 (250 BC)
Mongolian Empire declares war
Nidaros begins: Spearman
Axeman defeats (4.20/5): Indian Swordsman

Turn 151 (235 BC)
Chariot loses to: Indian Swordsman (4.20/6)
Axeman defeats (4.60/5): Indian Swordsman

Turn 152 (220 BC)
Tech learned: Construction

Turn 153 (205 BC)
Research begun: Priesthood
Nidaros finishes: Spearman
Uppsala's borders expand

Turn 154 (190 BC)
Nidaros begins: Trireme
Nidaros begins: Horse Archer
Tech learned: Priesthood
Uppsala finishes: Worker

Turn 155 (175 BC)
Research begun: Compass
Uppsala begins: Barracks
Nidaros finishes: Horse Archer

Turn 156 (160 BC)
Nidaros begins: Work Boat
Haithabu finishes: Worker

Turn 157 (145 BC)
Nidaros grows: 7
Birka grows: 2

Turn 158 (130 BC)
Nidaros finishes: Work Boat
Haithabu finishes: Trireme
Axeman defeats (1.20/5): Mongolian Keshik

Turn 159 (115 BC)
Nidaros begins: Catapult
Haithabu begins: Trading Post
Eureka finishes: Worker

Turn 160 (100 BC)
Tech learned: Calendar
Eureka begins: Catapult

Turn 161 (85 BC)
and a SS of the possibilities of trading http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/51166/Civ4ScreenShot0012.JPGNot much to add to the above, just we have REALLY to do our best to survive... :cry:

The nice side is that we'll have less discussions, but i'm afraid GK goes fast to LBs, he has a lot of gold with his wineries, and well developed cities, but perhaps not much production.

A roster is posted few posts above, so it's useless... good luck Sweeta, you need it.

OK, I was afraid of this. Ghandi bribed his friend into declaring on us. Now, he's going to either need to be wiped or minimized.

Blub, take it easy on the trading posts. All they give to ships is nav 1, and that's not going to help in a fight anyway. Don't freak.

Axemen will be able to handle Ghandi's swords, and it's not like he can pump thousands of them across the water at us.

I've said we should be banging military. (Although I didn't build much in my turnset, either) Now's the time to put everything we got into it, MM for hammers, whip where we need to, I think we can make it work. I don't see where we've lost a battle yet, and at minimum, this gives us the chance to get Old Sarai like we wanted. However, we shouldn't stop there, we should take Karakorum, and the city eas