Welcome to your C_IV Warlords SGOTM 4 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

The Game
This Monarch difficulty game is on a Standard size, Gyathaar-special, fractal map, at Epic speed, against 7 rivals including India. All victory conditions are enabled except Diplomatic, but the laurels for this contest will be awarded to the teams who achieve the fastest Space defeat by Gandhi.

Versions
This game will be played in Warlords Version 2.08 only.

It will be played using the current version of the HoF Mod. This is version 2.08.003 for Windows. There are insufficient Mac players to form a Mac team. so it will be played in Windows only.

If later versions of Warlords or the HoF Mod are released they cannot be used for this game.

Your start file will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php) at midnight, server local time, at the start of February 23.

Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm4_start_small.jpg (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm4_start_large.jpg)

Map Parameters
Playable Leader/Civ - Ragnar of The Vikings
Rivals - 7 civs including Gandhi (who is locked in war with Ragnar)
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Monarch
Landform - Fractal, cylindrical, medium sea level, temperate
Game Speed - Epic
Diplomatic Victory Disabled
All other settings are defaults

Notes

Please visit the C-IV Warlords SGOTM reference thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208462) to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.

Warlords v.2.08 is supported for this SGOTM. No other versions can be used, and you will have to stick with the same version throughout the game.

Teams will compete for up to four awards - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher.

Awards will be given to teams who achieve Space defeats to India in the least turns.

All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

Please enjoy the game :)

Checking in. I think the concensus is to finish up SGOTM3 before moving onto th is, correct?

(In any case, can you think of any reason not to found in place?)

Checking in too.

We can probably discuss this a little while finishing off SGOTM3, probably start when we have made a decision for the first turnset.

Tactics I was considering:

(a) Gifting early workers to Gandhi (ie letting him capture them).

(b) I think we want to make good friends with Gandhi's neighbours. Then we can bribe them to attack Gandhi. Then we backstab our friend and declare on them too. We kill most of their defenders, leaving Gandhi to walk into empty cities and expand his empire.

Now we could achieve this by religious dominance. If we make the (possibly risky) assumption that Gandhi will found buddhism, we may be able to found hinduism and judaism. Building stonehenge and oracle could get us christianity (via prophet pop) and confucianism, and that lets us dominate 4 of the first 5 religions. Spread one religion to Gandhi's neighbours and that gets us some friends that hate Gandhi. The will have to be good friends to absorb the "you have declared on our friend" backstab penalty. Or if they hate him enough they may declare on him on their own.

Just an idea, feel free to discuss.

Oh, and I think we have a new member - welcome Manic_ :wavey:

Cheking in

I was also thinking about bribing and backstabbing. Sooooo's idea about religions is a good one, we need to see how early game goes. Don't know if at war, civs would prefer chasing military techs, like Gandhi going after bronzeworking right away. But we saw in SGOTM1 and KK02 that even if at war, AIs would still put high emphasis on expanding. There's no fear of a big scale early attack

We need to explore the surroundings early to assess situation. God only knows what Gyathaar made to the map

Welcome aboard Manic_

Hi all, checking in.

Pindicator, I can't see any worthwhile reasons not to found in place.

The fear of gifting workers is that Gandhi will kill them instead of taking them. I guess if we walk them into his territory he would be unlikely to kill them.

I would think that we could limit the game to just Gandhi and ourselves but we just have to hope that Gandhi doesn't attack us too much. We will be in perpetual war and he will end up with huge WW that will stunt his growth. I would be nice to have a civ between us and him that is friendly to us as a buffer.

@Kikinit: Have you ever seen an AI kill a worker instead of taking them? I don't think I have.

How about ... worker first, gift him to Gandhi :dubious:

IIRC with the newer patches you can't move a worker after capturing him. I have seen workers disappear after being captured as I have been a bit careless in some of my single player games.

Do we know where Gandhi is in the initial save?

Worker first to Gandhi... Should give him a powerful handicap over the rest... but will it put us behind?

@Kikinit: Have you ever seen an AI kill a worker instead of taking them? I don't think I have.

This happened to me many times. The worker needs to be near Gandhi territory when we want to gift it

On monarch, AI starts with a free worker. I don't think we should give him our first, or at least till he improves a couple tiles for us.

Lets wait with all the decisions here, until we finish the SGOTM3.

We can still discuss things here while the other game is going on. We need to be fair to Manic_ too, who has no reason to care how we do in SGOTM3.

What do others think about working the lake and going for hinduism and judaism?

Hi, checking in.

@ everyone - i do care about how you do in SGOTM3, as i am in that too =)

I think settle in place is good. But move scout S then W to hill before to see if that changes anything.

Gifting first worker to big G isn't a good idea, for one thing i'm not sure if we are going to be neighbours so best wait until we know what the layout is.
I think we can gift 2nd worker and maybe 3rd but after that i think it wouldn't make too much diff as cities will be limited to what they work. Unless as per usual AI get 5 clams in their cap's fat cross.
Bottom line is we don't want to be gimped too much that we cannot effect change on the world to promote big G's win. We need to make big G the runaway AI.

I think we should go for the poly - month route as suggested above. Then perhaps col - theo but i don't think they are #1 targets.

Does WW effect us i this game if its perm war? If so how much will that be?

Manic

:wavey: Welcome on board Manic.

By saying you are in SGOTM3, do you mean you're subscribed? You cannot offer us advice on that one as you may have read other threads in the eyes of the administrators.

On the issue of WW, I don't know too much but did read that it is reduced by 50% over normal due to the permanent war setting. I presume that is only with the opponent we are in permanent war with.

WW is also going to be tougher on us than Gandhi due to the Monarch game setting so we will want to avoid fighting with him to keep the unhappy faces at bay.

EDIT: D'oh! I realise now what Manic_ means by saying he's in SGOTM3. He's involved in another team. That didn't cross my mind. We need to watch what we say in here then :p .

he he - yeah - i am in the team 'New Warlords'.
So we waiting to finish that before starting this? It's cool with me, but first turns nothing too exciting happens anyway, can allways just settle, build warrior and explore and upload when warrior is built.

Just checking in and saying welcome aboard Manic!

I would wait for finsihing our other "top secret don't mention it to Manic masterplan" for SGTOM3 before playing. ;)

Ralph

i can guess your plan.. your going for a diplo or space win. i can just tell =)

He's on to us! :eek:

Well with SGOTM3 lurching from calamity to calamity, I think we should make a start on this one. How about this roster:

Manic
sooooo
Kikinit
blid
Ralph
Rihiter
pindicator (at the end to give his wrist time to recover)

So do we want warrior -> workboat or workboat -> warrior? Also does anyone disagree about starting with mysticism->polytheism? If no one does, then I suggest Manic plays until we get polytheism.

Sounds good to me.

*I think myst - poly for tech.

*And Warrior - WB for build.

*Settle on spot.

*Set the tile to the fresh water.

I'll play tomorrow evening so ppl can voice their differences.

Manic_

Possibly a better option is work boat before warrior, working the grass hill. When the WB is complete, switch to working clams and start warrior. That way we maximise growth, only sarificing the first few turns of commerce for higher mid-term commerce.

I like workboat-warrior. A big risk in AW, yes, but risk = reward on *OTMs.

Plus if we lose the gamble and Ghandi comes knocking, that wooden spoon is ours!

Sooo's build plan combined with push to polytheim sounds good to me.

Ralph

Does he start with a warrior or scout at the beginning anyway? If it's a scout then he has to build a warrior first and then will probably use it for defense before sending out the next one he builds. I would hope we have time to build our workboat and warrior.

Just to say I am out of the country in Darkest Peru for 16th - 24th August inclusive so unless I post otherwise please autoskip me for that week.

Kikinit- Hopefully not being such a huge map this time will cause less grief to your PC!!

Ralph

Ralph, do you mean March? If not, you may want to wait until SGOTM 6 to tell us about it. :lol:

I hope you are right about my PC. I do have to buy a new one soon anyway but I've got some large expenses upcoming and they're scaring me into waiting.

Ralph, do you mean March?

Yes March; gawd know how I came up with August not March, braindead as usual!!

Well, I can finaly watch the new save ;].

I will post my ideas quite soon. Hope they will be handy.

OK - So the plan is to hit Poly.

Build over WB - Warrior - Warrior - Worker.

And prey we don't get savaged @_@.

Plating turns now....

Moved Scout s then W. - Revealed Gems + Sugar. So that will help the happyness a bit.
Settled in place - working on WB/Myst from the forested hill. Myst and WB in 12.

Scout attacked by lion, 0.1 HP left and we only got 1 EXP!! Have to heal him.
Boarder Pop.
Turn 12 - WB completed and deployed on Clam. Set tile worked to clam. Myst in - Poly 15 turns.

3610 - Bud founded in far away land.
3460 - Pop 2. Set tiles to Clam and lake - poly 7 turns now.

Warrior Built - Started warrior #2 (we can get to size 3 before worker).

3250 - Poly (and hindu).

SAVE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/Fistful_of_Dynamite_SG004_BC3250_01.CivWarlordsSav e).

I have not changed religions yet - i have started researching mining with the overspill. Ok?

Working clam and hill now. Will pop in 2 and warrioir in 4.

Land - We have a gold city waiting to the west. Can place on the river 1n of gold to get the fish and overlap pigs with cap.
To the north is blocked up so we should expand south/west first. Although that is jungle.
Will attach SS with my suggested City loc's in a min.

Turn Log.
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Nidaros has been founded.

Turn 7, 3790 BC: The borders of Nidaros have expanded!

Turn 10, 3700 BC: Barbarian's Lion (2.00) vs Fistful of Dynamite's Scout (2.70)
Turn 10, 3700 BC: Combat Odds: 21.3%
Turn 10, 3700 BC: (Animal Combat: +20%)
Turn 10, 3700 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 10, 3700 BC: (Class Animal Combat: +100%)
Turn 10, 3700 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 10, 3700 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 10, 3700 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Scout is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 10, 3700 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Scout is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 10, 3700 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 10, 3700 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Scout is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 10, 3700 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Scout is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 10, 3700 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Scout is hit for 17 (15/100HP)
Turn 10, 3700 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 10, 3700 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 10, 3700 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Scout has defeated Barbarian's Lion!

Turn 11, 3670 BC: You have discovered Mysticism!

Turn 12, 3640 BC: Buddhism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 24, 3280 BC: Hinduism has been founded in Nidaros!
Turn 24, 3280 BC: You have discovered Polytheism!

Dot Map (?)
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/101529/Dot_Map_1.jpg

Horay, we got Hinduism. But I'm kinda sad that we haven't met any AIs yet. Surely we can't be separated by an ocean to Gandhi? That would make the early part of the game kinda boring and also invalidate our religion plan.

We can probably leave the dot map until we can see more terrain.

Manic
sooooo - UP
Kikinit - On Deck
blid
Ralph
Rihiter
pindicator

Looking good, nice to see the game rolling. The gold city looks tasty with Fishes and Pigs to support our gold diggers

So next techs? I guess it depends on if we want judaism or not. The thing is, if we are on our own continent or with 1-2 other civs, then founding lots of religions is BAD, as that will give Gandhi's neighbours the same religion as him. Maybe we should just do some more scouting while researching mining and maybe BW, giving up judaism. We can still easily get the later religions if it turns out we want them.

What is the later plan, how to get Ghandi to win by spaceship victory???

We must do something to max bost his reserch. I have an idea, but I could be done only under some circumstances...

Remember! Don't rush the game!

We must lern from our previous games. First think - then do. Plan everything very correcly. In the last game we did like this until the ending phase of the game. Lets start good like before. Lets discus, lets think, lets chose the best way. Easy and steady. We have time, lots of time.

In SGOTM we had certain things very well-planned out and certain things not planned out so well. I think we do need to agree on an over-all strategy of how we're going to get Ghandi into space. What are the diplomacy issues involved? How do we prevent any other AI from launching first? (Easy answer is kill them.) How do we get Ghandi to research more and waste hammers on us less? Especially now that Ghandi doesn't seem to be nearby us, or even on the same landmass, what does that say? Shouldn't we avoid contact as long as possible to let him build up infrastructure? And I know there are other important quetions I'm missing.

The most important thing is to make Gnadhi have a nice empire, just not too big to avoid him crashing his economy
We also need a passthrough AI. Someone who should be a techwhore, who is not touchy so that he can be a friend of both us and Gandhi. We can give techs to that guy so he can give them to Gandhi next. Either that AI has weak production or we just crush him when Gandhi can fly on his own.
The point of all this is that Ghandi needs AI partners and some we can make advanced by trading techs with

Rihiter are you going to share your grand ideas?

I agree that we should trade techs often to speed up the overall rsearch rate.

What is the later plan, how to get Ghandi to win by spaceship victory???

We must do something to max bost his reserch. I have an idea, but I could be done only under some circumstances...


Were all ears =)

I think the plan for my turns should be to scout more and see what kind of landmass we are on. Not commit to judaism, instead finish mining and go for bronze working. Should be able to play this weekend.

Sounds right to me, it is hard to talk about "plans" much until we know here Gandhi is and get a feel for the lands around us.

Ralph

I would be hesitant to proclaim that we are on a landmass by ourselves yet. We've been there before where we've thought that and have found a few AI's eventually.

I don't know how the AI will react when he's in always war. Do they explore at the start like normal or change that a bit?

Actually, looking at the dot-map, maybe Gandhi is hidden behind those mountains up north. (guessing only)

Manic, I don't think you need to put the map behind spoiler tags next time. I almost missed it like that :crazyeye:

EDIT: I've resized it to a reasonable width and copied it here for easier reference.
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/scwally/SGOTM4/Dot_Map_1.jpg

I'm OK with avoiding another religion for now. SGOTM2 showed how bad it can be if another landmass forms a reigious unified block

Is the way to do this game to get as near to domination as we can without going over and try to keep at least one or two AI's (like Hatty) to try and trade through to Gandhi?

Well, my general thought are like this:
1) for now we should play this game as a normal game, so don't bother to much about Ghandi and lets concentrate on our infrastructure and economy
2) lets start this game with a good city deployment, total city specialization ( I will still say that this is the key, to make a good starting plan ). Kikinig is right, lets make a good dot map. After we'll have a good start which will point us a the leading civilization we can think how to bost others, that means Ghandi. Reason is quite simple, if we won't be the leading civ, then we won't be able to help other civ. Straight and simple like an arrow
3) we have our own religion, very good, and that is enough, maybe later another one, bot enough for now
...
..
.
4) and for later on, when we will think how to get Ghandi to win with us...
Well my idea bases on my own observation. When does youre economy is the strongets? When can you reserch techs in the fastest way??? Anwser...
...when you have a small but very rich and fertile empire. So we must make Ghandi to build an empire which will be like this. I think that we cannot alow him to have a very big country, that would slow his reserch too much. That even includs destroing his weak cities which will slow him down. Ghandi is rather a peac leader, so even if he will be at war with us all the time and we will attack him time to time, he won't rather strike back and wast a lot of production for war. So my plan is to cut of his weak cities and left him only with those cities which will let him reserch fast. Reserch oposit path then he will, so lets watch what he is reserching, and reserch something from the opisit side of the reserch list. Then like someone sugested we will try to pass the tech which we have to Ghandi by someone else. Lets harm badly everyone who is a thread for Ghandi, we can even try to get him some vasals...etc... Also we must harm badly or even destroy/vassalize everyone who will be forward with techs to much (but that is obvious ).

Ok... so lets start with the dot map, city specialization...etc... (my proposition in another post)...

Well we obviously cannot have a dotmap without seeing more of our landmass, and cannot have a proper plan without knowing where Gandhi is so I will play some turns today.

Yes, that is true. So lets uncover some more land, and after that we will be able to make a good dot map. For now it doesn't make any diference since we won't settle another city for some time.

About Ghandi, it realy doesn't matter that much in the begining. Until we meat him, we must act normaly. So if we meet him soon, then we can make a plan for him right away, if not, lets play normaly.

One more thing. Enybody remembers that kind of reserch patch does Ghandi follow usually.

Frome what I can see for now, our capital is a good place for generating GPP and to build wonders - so it's a very good place for GPF ;]

p.s. If we would make bets, I would bet that Ghandi is on the other side of that lake, on the sea shore like we are. We just haven't meet him jet.

Played 15 turns, up until we met Gandhi.

I decide not to make the same mistake at SGOTM2, in which we suffered barb problems. I want to get some fog-busters out, so will build warriors for the turnset.

T4: Warrior in jungle kills lion and wolf crossing a river. Promote him to woodsman 1 and heal. Captial finishes warrior, starts another.

T6: Scout on hill loses to panther (26% odds). Switch captial from worker to scout.

T7: Warrior on jungle hill kills bear.

T9: Woodsman warrior in jungle kills lion. Mining -> Bronze working

T10: Scout -> Finish earlier Warrior

T12: Warrior -> Warrior

T14: Sigh, our new scout on jungle hill dies to panther (10% odds), with no damage to the panther.

T15: The seemingly invincible panther becomes aware of his own mortality, attacking our woodsman warrior. Promote warrior to woodsman 2, heal. Our other warrior kills a wolf. Meet 2 new AI. Genghis is to the south, Gandhi is over a lake/estuary to the west.

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/6122/gandhiyi8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I wonder if Ghandi's setup is at all like it was in the Civ3 version.

Well I think You did a little to much of those wariors and scout thing...
...SGOTM02 was with raging barbarians, this one is not. Don't fall paranoid.
We don't even have a worker yet. We better start working on that. And then a second city. We have a good vision on the terrain now, so lets make a good dot map and good plan how to develop our civilization, before we make any more turns.

Well I think You did a little to much of those wariors and scout thing...
...SGOTM02 was with raging barbarians, this one is not. Don't fall paranoid.
We don't even have a worker yet. We better start working on that. And then a second city. We have a good vision on the terrain now, so lets make a good dot map.

OK, possibly. I met quite a lot of animals though. We only have 3 warriors currently. The reason I didn't build a worker yet is because he would have nothing to do.

I guess that a turnset of 12 turns to Bronze Working would be in our best interests right now. What else do I need to do except explore?

Builds, shall I start a settler as sooooo says we don't have anything for a worker and he built us a few warriors for escort duties.

Don't rush guys. Lets make a plan which will alow us to optimize our economy with the land we have, and make a good dot map. WHy are you in such a hurry?

I think a worker is OK to build now, because he coincides with BW coming in. Then we can chop out a settler.

I'm not going to rush too much Rihiter, but the only decision to make right now is what exactly are we going to build whilst we wait for bronze working. Once that comes in, then we have a lot of choices about where to settle.

I'll wait a little longer anyway.. I'll play in 24 hours or so.

Knowing where copper is would help with the dot map. Agree with a worker next
This being a game that should go for a long time, we need to avoid much overlap in our cities
There is an article (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=206578) in the stragegy forum about WFYABTA mechanics. To make it short :

Mansa is the golden techwhore
Excellent tech trading partners : Augustus Caesar, Catherine, Churchill, Elizabeth, Gandhi, Peter, Ramesses II, Roosevelt
Ok partners : Asoka, Cyrus, Frederick, Hannibal, Hatshepsut, Kublai Khan, Napoleon, Saladin, Victoria, Wang Kon, Washington
Useless partners (for some of them, it is already common knowledge) : Alexander, Bismarck, Brennus, Genghis Khan, Huayna Capac, Isabella, Julius Caesar, Louis XIV, Mao Zedong, Mehmed II, Montezuma, Qin Shi Huang, Ragnar, Shaka, Stalin, Tokugawa

I think getting the worker out ready for BW is the best bet.

There is not much else to do in this turnset apart from exploring. Especially North with that warrior is the SS to see if our land is linked to big G.

I think our initial expansion sould be south and west to give us maximum expansion area. In that respect IW would be something to get fairly early.

Could spread hindu to GK - and give him junk cities between us and ghandi as a buffer.

Ok then I'll build a worker and finish bronze working whilst continuing to explore. I will see if I can get them built around the same time.

I will be playing in 12 hours (tonight after work) so this is my got it I guess.

EDIT: Damn shame that GK is not on blid's list of nice trading neighbours.

I've only got to play until bronze working as that is a key development at which point we have a lot of decisions to make. If the copper is within reach that is!

So all I've got to do is explore as much as possible and build a worker... Lets see if I can do that without any problems.

2830BC: All seems in order, nothing for me to do. BW in 12, warrior next turn. I'll let him finish as we've got free supply for 4 units and we've only got 3 atm and he can fog bust.

IBT: Wolves attack warrior north of city and lose.

2800BC: I move the (injured) warrior NW to a forested hill to recuperate and there's a lion next door for next turn. Wish him luck. He's 1.6/2 and should be ok.

Warrior completed and I started a worker due in 12, 1 turn longer than BW.

The warrior won so I set him to heal for a few turns.

2770BC:

I mod the cells the city is working to get BW in 8 and it only adds 1 to the worker so I'll go for that to get us the location of the copper quicker and the worker around the same time as before.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/scwally/SGOTM4/Civ4ScreenShot0024.jpg

2740BC: It seems that we are on the same continent as Gandhi as he's got another city already NE of his capital. But we are separated by the mountains in the North. That is, we've got no way to get to him except across the water so we may as well be on different continents but galleys will be enough to get to him if we really want to.

Take a look at the gems and gold around his capital. That should mean he's got some good teching going on with the money he'll be getting from that.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/scwally/SGOTM4/Civ4ScreenShot0026.jpg

2620BC: GK gets bronze working and adopts slavery. Beat us to it by a few turns.

2560BC: Southern warrior whilst attempting to get to the hills goes across open ground and finds a lion next to him. This will be dicey.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/scwally/SGOTM4/Civ4ScreenShot0027.jpg

IBT: He wins just and retreats to the forests to heal (for 9 turns!!!).

2530BC: BW comes in and i revolt to slavery. I tentatively select agriculture next as I have no idea what we want to do next.

The copper is within our capital's cultural borders but not within working distance. Here's a spliced together map for future dot-mapping.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/scwally/SGOTM4/SGOTM4surrounds-1.jpg

Save has been uploaded.

And just in case I ever loose it again or anyone else is interested in an awesome free program for stitching photos, try this out http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~mbrown/autostitch/autostitch.html I tried using it for the dot map picture but it didn't do it too well as it didn't like the way these have no perspective and menus at the bottom. If you've got any panorama's to build, try it out as it's damned brilliant. In the end for the map above I used Paint.Net and just cut them out and pasted them together. Rough and ready but should do.

Nice one budski - going out tonight so have made a quick dot map for my ideas.
Found this one hard - also we don't have horse/iron so maybe not the best idea to do it right now.
I think the city to the south of the capitol is a good one though, as GK is our land grab opponent.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/101529/Dot_Map_1.jpg

OK, good exploring and animal-dodging Kikinit.

Roster update:

Manic
sooooo
Kikinit
blid - UP
Ralph - On Deck
Rihiter
pindicator

I will try to make a dotmap tomorrow morning, together with city specialization. I am in Rihiter's camp when it comes to specialization: I like it. It's not quite so important with financial civs, as they can have decent hybrid cities, but it's still good.

I didn't manage to dodge any animals, I seemed to run into them all but was lucky enough to win the rolls I had.

I really like the city to the west (1S of manic's green dot) that would get the fish, 3 golds and share the pigs with the capital. That would have 8 hills with and be a monstrous hammer generator. Is it enough food though? That is the question I never know enough to answer. The gold would be nice for our economy too.

Got it. Well, I would wait for Soooo's dotmapping to confront with Manic's and see what are our options here

Gyathaar is teasing us with three desert gold mines, combined with countless hills and loads of useless arid plains. Green dot would be hungry and so would blue dot, at least pre civil service. We should concentrate on blocking Genghis anyway an go to the fertile south

My thinking is that we should not allow Ghandhi to settle on our side of the continent. Not so for land grabbing than avoiding military clashes. If Ghandi has direct road to us, he would probably spend more hammers on military

Our dotmap and next city is going to depend heavily on our strategy. Which we haven't fully agreed on yet.

I disagree with Rihiter, in that I think Gandhi will do better with a larger empire, not a small one. The runaway AIs I see in games are those with large amounts of fertile land.

Giving Gandhi large amounts of land probably means leaving the south (and Genghis' ashes) to Gandhi. Letting him have a small, compact empire means denying him to settle on our landmass.

Anyway, here is my dotmap:

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/7775/northdotmapns9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/9430/dotmapsouthzv0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Firstly: forget about the desert sheep in the north. We cannot defend it from Gandhi. Secondly we don't want to found cities which steal Gandhi's fishfood. We want to help him! My map does waste the copper and spices, but that's OK. Black spot would be nice, but I think Genghis gets there first.

Now, my map doesn't leave a great GP farm. With financial leader, I don't believe to make the captial or something like my purple dot into a GP farm. These fertile cities are so much better off being cottaged. GP farm should have crappy land but 2-3 food sources. Blue dot could be OK for this. Clams and 7 grassland farms. But again I would rather cottage it ...

yeah, i was thinking about 2nd city on that desert hill. Probably best bet as a city north will compete with fish.

I'd say 2nd city pink dot.
3rd city light cyan dot.
4th orang dot - then we can fill the rest in.
as for the ones up north, there shouldn't be much competition for.

the only good GP farm i see is the capitol. The others really have to work the tiles.

I somehow don't like the idea of sharing borders with Gandhi. Even being a peaceful guy, he would probably be a pain in the a$$ if we have 7-8 tiles of common borders with us keeping strictly on defense in our borders

I think that we need to get a ship asap to travel and see what is there beyond Gandhi in the west. We must help him expand towards west, if there is space and keep Genghis lands for us. We need to be the runaway civ and Gandhi following our trail.
If there is no space in the west for Ghandi, then strategy would be very different and we would have to give those mongolian lands to Ghandhi, either by start war/backstab strategy (this would be hard to achieve with a peaceful jerk like Gandhi), or just by razing mongolian cities and leaving the space empty

For current matters, I'm thinking agri (fir the corn)->wheel (hook that copper)->AH (for piggies)->sailing (for the trireme)

And cities go pink->orange

I agree with blid's techs path.

To make the orange city viable, we are going to need a couple of triremes sitting on the food resources or Gandhi will come in and wipe out our nets all the time. For that reason, I wonder if we should not settle that city on the West coast so quickly and wait until we've got a bit more navy.

I think we need to get a trireme exploring how much space Gandhi's got. The worst case would be that he doesn't have much space to work in and we need to let him come into our island. We want to know this early to make plans for it.

I am slightly confused by the two pinks, being an old man makes my colour defintion poor but I agree with settling Pink then Orange.

Re GP farm as we are financial we can do quite well with just one Prophet for Shrine and a couple of GS' so just having our capital producing GP's will be pretty efficient although it will diminish mid Game Bureaucracy effect.

Tech Path from Blid looks good and I definitely think we need to keep a real focus post AH on sailing - building a navy and exploring as we really need to know about our world to form a long term strategy. An example is knowing about the world map may well create an opportunity for us to really seperate out physically from Ghandi (seperate continent?) so Ghandi puts his :hammers: and :science: into growth not wasting them trying to :hammer: us.

Re Long term startegy I think until we know a lot more of our world its is a normal start to a game with the proviso's

1. Avoid if possible borders with Gandhi
2. Avoid making more enemies than Gandhi if possoble
3. We will be going deep into the tech and time tree so longer term investments make sense e.g. First Great Scientist should probably be for an Academy not a light bulb, similalrlly first GP for a shrine? Cottages will pay off etc
4. In some ways we have to plan to build a spaceship ourselves as that may unlock the techs for Gandhi to do it...The reason I agree Ghandhi needs a fairly large empire is to have the :hammers: to build a spaceship (as he will waste some on military), we will take care of his research "for him" but he is going to have to build it himself!

A question that has been asked which I don't know the answer to (but will research if no-one else does) is what is Gandhi's normal tech path as we should let him follow that and unlock techs off that path to get to him by hook or by crook.

Ralph

Agree with Blid's tech order. Need to hook up that copper quickly so we don't have to research archery.

Would play tomorrow as blid-03 took my time tonight and I admit some turns of MAN2. I remember Rihiter wanting to play a PBEM game. In MAN2, which is a turn based game designed for online playing, you can finish a game in around 15-20 turns. It is more tactical than strategic but I feel like getting hooked.
I'm playing trial game which you can get here (http://www.massiveassaultnetwork.com/man2/free_download.php)

LOL @ blid... I too have a new distraction... a PS3. A friend in the UK asked me to get one for him for when I go over in a few weeks and said I am welcome to play it until I get it there... :D

That brings me to another point. I'm being seconded to the UK for 6 months from the end of this month. I'll be staying and working around Wilton on the Tees near Middlesbrough. I'm not sure what access I'll have to CIV at this point... I'm thinking of buying a 2nd hand PC from something like ebay that will be capable enough... My company will probably give me a laptop but I'm sure it won't be capable for CIV...

Hi. Sorry for not posting enything lately, I have very les time lately.

I will try to post my proposition for the dot map today.

The way this game went, I could have played it yesterday. The fastest 20 turns I got in an SGOTM. 00:11:04 according to submission page :)

Once out of anarchy, I switched from the forested hill to the lake without delaying the worker.

Afterwards, I realized I should have delayed the worker to time him with agriculture because I lost one movement point getting to a forest to prechop, back to corn to farm then again to the hill to finish chopping

Now, the worker is on the hill and we have the wheel so we can road it

Before starting the settler, I invested 2 turns into a barracks to grow to size 4

The settler is ready now and unmoved so if we agree on next site near the gold, the settler can move on turn 0

I killed three barbs

A barb city popped near the gems, disturbing our dotmap

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/blidblid/SGOTM4/turnset1/sgtom4-03.jpg


And Gandhi is the founder of judaism

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/blidblid/SGOTM4/turnset1/sgtom4-01.jpg


There is an overflow in the capital so we can finish barracks and grow in 6 turns.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/blidblid/SGOTM4/turnset1/sgtom4-02.jpg


But I quite prefer building a worker. It would take 7 turns, and he would help accelarate hooking the copper then we'll have a worker per city, pasturing the piggies quickly and having our second city at size 3 working two gold mines quite soon. Yeah, that option seems far better to me

save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/Fistful_of_Dynamite_SG004_BC1930_01.CivWarlordsSav e)


Turn 49, 2530 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 49, 2530 BC: Fistful of Dynamite adopts Slavery!
Turn 49, 2530 BC: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.

Turn 57, 2290 BC: You have discovered Agriculture!

Turn 58, 2260 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Fistful of Dynamite's Warrior (4.70)
Turn 58, 2260 BC: Combat Odds: 0.4%
Turn 58, 2260 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 58, 2260 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 58, 2260 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 58, 2260 BC: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 58, 2260 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 30 (70/100HP)
Turn 58, 2260 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Warrior is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 58, 2260 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 30 (40/100HP)
Turn 58, 2260 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 30 (10/100HP)
Turn 58, 2260 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 30 (0/100HP)
Turn 58, 2260 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 58, 2260 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Fistful of Dynamite's Warrior (5.20)
Turn 58, 2260 BC: Combat Odds: 0.1%
Turn 58, 2260 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 58, 2260 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 58, 2260 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 58, 2260 BC: (Feature: +50%)
Turn 58, 2260 BC: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 58, 2260 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 31 (69/100HP)
Turn 58, 2260 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Warrior is hit for 12 (88/100HP)
Turn 58, 2260 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 31 (38/100HP)
Turn 58, 2260 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 31 (7/100HP)
Turn 58, 2260 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Warrior is hit for 12 (76/100HP)
Turn 58, 2260 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 31 (0/100HP)
Turn 58, 2260 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 61, 2170 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Fistful of Dynamite's Warrior (4.04)
Turn 61, 2170 BC: Combat Odds: 1.9%
Turn 61, 2170 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 61, 2170 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 61, 2170 BC: (Feature: +50%)
Turn 61, 2170 BC: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 61, 2170 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 61, 2170 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 61, 2170 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Warrior is hit for 13 (73/100HP)
Turn 61, 2170 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 61, 2170 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 61, 2170 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 67, 1990 BC: Judaism has been founded in Bombay!

Turn 68, 1960 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ? for Nidaros.
Turn 68, 1960 BC: You have discovered The Wheel!
Turn 68, 1960 BC: You have trained a Settler in Nidaros. Work has now begun on a Barracks.
Turn 68, 1960 BC: Gandhi adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 68, 1960 BC: Gandhi converts to Judaism!

nice one. looking at save now

Would a way to get this through trade going be to take the religion that Gandhi becomes, adopt it ourselves and then trade through a third part who is also in the same religious block?

Raises an issue though, I guess as we don't have and never will have open borders with Gandhi the religion will not spread to us directly.

Religion does not need open borders to spread.

Manic
sooooo
Kikinit
blid
Ralph - UP
Rihiter - On Deck
pindicator

I agree with blid's plan to switch to another worker. Are we going for sailing after AH?

road the hill and bronze - then worker will mine bronze faster.
Then cop another settler on the way to the pigs?

We need to raze that barb city before settling orange dot. So after worker is done, I think we should finish barracks then build a couple axes

Just to say I am out of the country in Darkest Peru for 16th - 24th August inclusive so unless I post otherwise please autoskip me for that week.
Um... I think Ralph corrected himself to say he meant March... that means he's out for the next week guys... Rihiter is up and pindicator's on deck.

We need to raze that barb city before settling orange dot. So after worker is done, I think we should finish barracks then build a couple axes

Good point - so worker then rax followed by axes - we could go knocking on GK's door early doors and try and capture his cap? - worth a scouting of his cities, but probably not worth it in the long run.

Ok, if I'm up then I will try to find time to play tomorrow.

Revised Roster:

Manic
sooooo
Kikinit
blid
Ralph
Rihiter - UP
pindicator - On Deck

Good that you can play tomorrow Rihiter. I think the plan is well set out, good luck :)

OK, I'm plaing the game.

Asking to be sure...
149998
...You want me to settle here? The pink dot?

Ok, it's T9 - 1660BC.

I have just finished a worker, we have an overflow (24H), bronze is not in jet (will be in 2 turns ). So asking what to build:
1) Put the overflow into a settler. Then start a warrior and change to Axe after bronze is in ( we wast some hammers for that warior ).
2) Start something big, wonder. I propose Stonehange, it might be handy. The question is, are we going to finish it first? We will use wiping ofcourse.
3) Put some hammers ingo a momument, then start Axes when bronze is in
4) Start a settler, put overflow into him, then continiu the settler til the bronze is in
5) other idea...

Quick decision guys. Quite important moment, it will define our strategy for next few turn sets.

we need axes. Put that overflow into barracks so we get better axes

Raport about what happend til now:
T0 1930BC start road over hill
T1 1900BC settler in place for the new city
T2 1870BC Uppsala being founded. Start barrack there. Work the pigs -> pop in 11t.
T3 1840BC I noticed that we didn't convert yet, so decided to do so. Started road over bronze
T4 1810BC Anarchy is over
T5 1780BC Barb warrior
150000
T6 1750BC We won with no harm. Started mine over bronze.
T7 1720BC Pop up in Nidaras, barrack are done -> started worker. We have slavery, and high pop so I decided to use it a bit
T8 1690BC Wipe the worker for 2pop
T9 1660BC Worker is finished, he starts a road over farm, mine and roads to bronze will be ready in 2 turns, we have 24H overflow from the worker...
...choises what to do in the post above...

we need axes. Put that overflow into barracks so we get better axes
Barrack are allready finished.

Waiting 30min for discusion&propositions, then I'm plaing.
During that, I will write my ideas for that PBEM game I was talking about ealier.

Like I said before, I would like to start a PBEM game mostly for the guys from our team. We know each other for over a year now ( or something like that ), and because of that we may call ourselfs "forum friends" or something like that. And this is the main thing for that game, that should be a friendly game. Ofcourse there will be some competition, when there is a game there is allways competition, but still it will be a friendly game.

Somebody said that it will last for ages. Well probably he is right, so we can try to make it faster. My propositions are:
1) Not a big map with 5-6 players. This means a map smaler then standard map and 5 human players + one AI, or just 5 or 6 human players (depend how many people want's to play). Probably pangea map, this way it would be the fastest or some other type of map if we agre a diffrent one. I would like to play with epic speed, the game is most interesting with that speed, but if we will like to fasten it up a bit we can try the normal speed (on na map smaller then standart it should be still good). In this option we will need 5 to 6 people.
2) Second options is to divide us into teams, 2 players in every team. Map smaller then standard, 4 human players(teams) + 1AI. Rest like abow. In this optionwe will need 6 or 8 people (8 would be better).

Play order: every player(team) will have 24-48h (we can decide how long) to play his turn and send it via email. If the player(team) knows that he won't be able to play few days before his turn comes he can write it in the "game general forum thread" and ask for delay, or propose somebody to play that particular turn for him - a friend or someone else, best if somebody who's not plaing in the same game. If we will play in teams then this problem will be much more rare, because most of the time one of the team players will be aviable. Other thing is, that plaing only one turn won't take long, 1m in the begining , up to 15-30m in the mature game, so even if we don't have much time, we can spend those few minutes once every 3 day or even once a weak . If someone(or whole team) will have to leave the game, or won't be able to play for a longer time, can find someone in replacemant or that player(team) will be runed by AI from then.

Game concepts: the main concept for this game would be diplomacy and politics. I would like to organize that in another way then only standard "in game diplomacy". I would like to do this by forum. So all the negotiations, barter, allays and stuff will be done in forum threads. How I would like to do that? Quite simple. Every civilization will have a tread for negotiations with every other civ. So f.e. if I will have contact with 3 other civs, I will have 3 threads for diplomacy, one for each of them. And this is the main part where the "friendly game" comes in. I think that we can trust each other, and just rely on that trust in the matter of wathing someone else diplomacy threads. I just think that wouldn't happen, we are in one team and we are a TEAM, aren't we? ;]
So diplomacy in threads, that means this diplomacy will have much more options then just simple diplomacy in the game, and that might be realy interesting and fun.

Rules: We will think about some general rules which every player will have to follow.

That is my general ideas. We could name the game something like this: "Team FoD inside Friendly PBEM Game" or something like this, try to get some help from the civfanatics staff with the forum thing, and it could be realy fun ;].

So who would like to play a game like this? Ofcourse if you know somebody not from our team who would like to play with us and You know that this person is someone nice to play with, bring him in.

So who's in?

If I understand correctly, Nidaros is at 3 pop. I would put the overflow into at least 1 axe while we grow, until we begin the next settler.

Regarding Stonehenge, it depends on our GP strategy. Prophets can either be awful or terrible depending on if we are going for a Scientist strategy or a religion-founding Great Prophet strategy. It's probably that we are too late to build it anyway.

We cannot build axes yet. We will be able to do so in 2 turns... So I can't put the overflow into an axe.
We can build the Stonehange in less then 10turns using choping and wiping.

OK, then I'll leave it to your judgement Rihiter. I think I would go for option 1, but it's up to you.

Well, this is a very important decision, and I decided to stop the turn set for now. I uploaded the save file so we can all see the situation and judge it. After we decide something together I can continue for some more turns or we can go on to another player. But for now lets make that decision together.

Raport is allready writen. Save is uploaded.

We can follow one of two patches now:
1) we can build the Stonehange, this will delay our war plans (barb city, and maybe Khan after it), but we will have fist GP started, and a monument in every city.
2) use the overflow for settler/stonehange(we will get cash for it later), and after 2 turns ( when the bronze will be hocked up ) start production of axes and attack.

About Stonehange, I think we can finish it in something round 10t.
24H overflow, +30H from forest, +10H till the pop up(5t), then 5H/t -> when we reach 92H put we can wipe 2pop and get 90H from it. Question: Do we get 45H for every pop when building wonders and buildings?

Question: Do we get 45H for every pop when building wonders and buildings?

AFAIK, there is a +100% whipping penalty for wonders, so we will get 45H for every 2pop when buildings wonders.

Ok, that means that if we decide to build Stonehange, we will need to chop 2 forests to make it fast. One on the plains/hill, to build a mine for increase production when the city is at the max size, second near the lake, do we can drag irrigation fowards Uppsala (in the future).

Do we really want stonehenge? Those prophets taste bad. Library is cheaper and gets us GPs that are actually useful.

GP is useful for 2-3 of them as you can get the shrine then a few nice techs - after that we probably will have Great Lib (unless we leave this for Ghandi? Risky?) and lib so 3 or 4 scientist anyway.

I think the stonehenge idea is a good one personally - i never usually make it but its useful - besided, after that we get 2 axes and take the barb city with that anyway.

I think question is would dominant hinduism be good or bad for Gandhi. If we build a shrine, there is a good chance Genghis converts to hinduism and starts hating Gandhi. I don't feel very strongly about stonehenge, our hammers would be better diverted into axes to go take that gems city early on

I don't remember if we have hunting. If not, then you can build a warrior and it would convert into an axe. If we have hunting, build stonhenge, we'll get a few coins later on. Overflow, should go into settler but let's make sure he won't start deaying

Ok, why I think that we should build the Stonehange? It goes from our long term strategy which I will try to propose.

What we must remember:
1) We don't have to conquer enything. So we don't have to rush any wars now, I don't know why you want so badly to attack right now. The only reason we will attack someone is because he will be a tread to that lauzy jerk Ghandi, who can't even find tits in a strip bar.
2) We must expect a long game. It will take ages till a stupid AI (even with our help ) will build and lunch a space ship. AGES!!!
3) So we have to concentrate on economy! That is most important! Because without superbl economy we won't be able to drag forward 2 civilization at the same time. By two I mean us and Ghandi.
4) We must think a way to provide Ghandi with tons of cash.

Answer about 4) My idea is to try to get the same religion as Ghandi and put extrealy much efort in shearing it all over the world. It means that if the religion won't spread to one of our city by itself, we will have to take by force one of Ghandis citis with it, and spread it to our cities. Then we will be able to produce missionaries, and this way get Ghandi cash. Why do we need Stonehange? Because we also need a shirine so we can get much cash to, becaus think of the cost of running the economy for two civilizations!

Best would be if most of the world will follow Ghandis religion, and so do we. First of all becaus of the cash for Ghandi. Second of all becaus of the tech trading. We must fasten as much as possible a way those tech will go around the world, and don't worry about others getting the techs. Every civ which will be a tread to Ghandis spaceship victory will be our goal for a fast and wery brutal military assoult ( this is the only moment when we realy have to use force ).

Anwser about 3) We need our own religion to provide us with cash, so we can be able to help Ghandi. This will be costing us a lot!!! We will have to produce missionaries almost all the time, for our own religion, and for Ghandis religion. If we wan't to get cash from our religion we need prophet, if faster then better. This is also an answer to point 2 - if we expect a long term game we need to invest as much as possible at the begining. That means Prophet + academies + lots of cottages.

Answer about 1) Khan is a siutable target for fast attack, but is he realy in this game? Ofcourse we will conquer him eventualy, he has very fertile lands, so we will need them. If I see it right he has lots of flood plains, so they will be realy good to cottage them, and make a superbl cash factory. But do we realy wan't to hurry that much with conquering? I would rather get cats first, becaus without them conquering takes a lots of offensive units, and we can't aford producing lots of offensive units in this game. Remember that we will have to have some units for active defence at the border with Ghandi, and also some effective defenders.

Ofcourse we need to tak that barb city ( raze it or maybe not? ), but I think that Stonehange is worth taking it. For the early Prophet, and for the cultural influence in new cities.

OK, you present a good argument and the rest of the team likes SH too. Let's go for it. Are you going to play some more turns or pass it on to the next player?

Regarding your PBEM idea, then I'm willing to participate in however you decide to do it but am away for June and July. Maybe that's not so good for your plans.

I'm for the PBEM too but also, like sooooo, will likely be disruptive during early April whilst I settle into my job in the UK and try and find some form of pc for my home use.

Sooooo, I can play some more turns, thats no problem. I can do this today in the evening or tomorow, but if someone else like to play right away, I'm ok with it. What does the rest of the team think about my general plan for the game?

About PBEM:
If in particular period of time many players will be absent we can pause the game for some time. There's no rush ;]
And ofcourse, we can try the second option ( the one with 2players teams ), and make those teams flexible, so there will be at least one member of the team aviable for most of the time :]

If you have time to play Rihiter then go for it.

Ok, I'm plaing now. Sory for the deley.

I played 10 more turns. Here's the raport.

T10 1630BC There is Marble near us. And that is a perfect location for our next city!!! This will be a superble comerce city with good production, so we'll be able to build needed buildings/wonders in this city ( Collosus might be very crucial in this game ).
150312
T11 1600BC Warrior wins with barb warrior near Uppsala. AH is in and we have horses right next to our capital. Startet Pottery - for greanaries and cottages. Ghandi has slavery.
150315
T12 1570BC Bronze is hocked up, but we continiu the Stonehange. Start building a pasture over horses and wiping the forest on a hill/plain
T13 1540BC nothing special
T14 1510BC Pop up in Nidaros and in Uppsala
T15 1480BC Look what I have met...
150313
...tempting...
...and you all wanted to attack Khan so badly...
...I was wandering: Is it my lucky day?...
...tempting...
150314
...ods were only 16%...
...but it was so bloody tempting...
...and gues what?...
...it was my lucky day :D, we won and we have an extra worker :D :D :D
T16 1450BC nothing special
T17 1420BC Great Wall was built somewhere. Forest choped.
T18 1390BC Start pasture over pigs
T19 1360BC Pottery is in. Pop up in Nidaris. Prod in Uppsala changed to Granary.

We spent a week deciding if where we should put 24H overflow then you go to war against Genghis without consulting the team :confused:

Stealing a worker is definitely not worth it IMO. Now, if we are stuck with Genghis and Gandhi until astro, we are in a very bad shape. And the only way to know is to get a city on the west coast build us a boat, not near that marble site. At worst, we could have got a city instead of a worker later

Declaring war for a 16% chance of a worker? :dubious:

Good result, but 100% the wrong decision to make!

I'm suspicious.

Pindicator is up now:

Manic - On Deck
sooooo
Kikinit
blid
Ralph
Rihiter
pindicator - UP

Well, the settler was obviously heading toward that spot, which in my opinion is a perfect city site. You were planing to attack Khan either way so what's the difference, now or later. Now we will just sign a peace treaty in 10turns, and everything is going to be normal. Only -3 modifier, but like I said you were planing to attack him afteral.

About 16%... it's just my way of plaing, if I see an oportunity like this, a free worker ( which on the early stage of the game is a superble bonus ), then I usualy try to get it. A worrior is worthles, so I can risk it. Beside that, we didn't spent a weak deciding about 24H overflow, I just wasn't able to play the rest of turns untill today.

With all the jungle an extra worker will be handy - but probably the bad move as we coulf have got 3 axes and had the city instead (and not need to build a settler).

Horses in capitol eh... eh... HBR then? As we are waring now with GK no matter what... Get a gally out and then horses/axes and take his best cities.

Gents, I request a skip. I am packing my things and moving on Saturday. Will be up and running some time next week.

I think Manic can swap with pindicator

Regarding war with Genghis, we indeed talked about it but we didn't decide when. And if Ghandi didn't had other neighbours so this should have waited for a long time or at least we would have Genghis declare on us instead.
In the case three civs scenario, the -3 would make us his worst enemy unless we make him hindu which in return would make Ghandi his worst enemy. Both cases are problematic

I don't think the team had definitely decided that we were going to attack Genghis. I wanted to make friends with Genghis, bribing him to attack Gandhi then backstabbing him, letting Gandhi take his developed cities. But not until the renaiisance age or something. The negative penalty for declaring war means this is now difficult. The other option is to raze cities, leaving space for Gandhi to settle. This is much worse, because Gandhi has to build settlers and doesn't get developed cities.

Overall, I think we want Gandhi to get a large empire. All the runaway AIs in my games are those who have a large empire.

Hey, I should be able to play in a few days. I did most of a move today, but i'm back up and running (as far as internet goes) a little bit sooner than expected. Still have a lot to do for unpacking and cleaning the old place, so it may be better to skip me this time. Or if we have a lot of discussion, that's fine too: i won't be ready to play until at least Tuesday.

not able to play until tuesday so best if we wait for pindicator

Ok, lets make a plan how to play next.

What with the dot map. I see it is not finished yet. We didn't agreed on one version of the dot map. My proposition is like this:

South region
ver1 150420 ver2 150417 ver3 150418

North region
150419

Order of building and specialization:
1 - capital, GPF, wonder city
2 - with those pigs and corn, a good production city (PC)
our next city
3 - cash city(CC) or 4 - CC (in ver 1), PC (navy PC, in ver 2 & 3)
5 - CC...
...we can build 6 now or later, this is a CC which task is to fill the gaps, on good grasland/fresh water tails with cottages. Also it will work cottages which belongs to other cities, but can't be worked at the moment...
...build cities on the North (7-10), first those with much food, then when we can spread irrigation the rest.

As You can see I think that first we should take control of the south. Khan will try to get it for him self. What should be our next city? 3 or 4?
Well, he allready tried to settle somewhere near 3, so I think it should be first. Then right after it, we should settle 4 ( ver3 might be the best one ). This way we cut off Khan from our lands and what is very importand, we cut him away from the horses (if he doesn't have horses on the other side of his lands then we cut him off from horses permanently - that would be great, he won't be able to use his special unit against us). But first 3, that is his next settling target I think. If Khan will interfare with our plans, we can make use of those Axes which we want to build.

My proposition of production (make use of wiping - remember it's very powerfull , don't worry about happines to much ):
Nidaris -> finish Stonehange (6 turns), then 2-3 Axes, then settler ( settle on 3 )
Uppsala -> finish granary, finish barracks

Reserch:
If we will build 3 first, I would skip Sailing for some time. Maybe Masonary first. Then Sailing or else..

Now... the "X" city. I think that we could left a gap here. Let Ghandi to settle here and spread judaism there. It's very close to Bombay so it shoul spread there fast. Then we can take this city, and we have judaism where we want it... A kind of insurance in case judaism won't spread to our lands in a normal way.

That's a good idea about getting judaism by capturing an indian city. Of your dotmaps, I like 2 the best, but I prefer mine overall :). I don't think we want to be making dotmaps which use the seafood in our channel that separates us from Gandhi. Firstly we want Gandhi to be able to use that food and secondly we don't want to have to fight a navy battle over pillaging.

You know, that food around city 5 is out of Ghandis Citi radius, so I think we can use it. It's to close to hs capital so he cannot build another city there to use it. Puting a galley there (and upgrade it later) may be wort getting fish or clams, or fish and clams. I still think that Ghandi is a peacefull guy, and won't make much affort on attacking.

About food near Bombay, there is no worry we will take it away from Ghandi. Bombay is his religion founding place, so it will have a lot of culture.

And near city 9, we allready gave him almost all the chanel, so we can take one part of it... We must also think a little bit about ourselfs, else we won't be able to drag Ghandi forward with us.

About which plan is better.

I based my idea on a fact that we are finical... so we must take max adventage of it. That means we must use as much grassland tiles and shore tiles as we can. We also don't need much population, we need very precise and productiv (cash or production) cities. That is why I put those cities so tight, so we can use all the grasland we have ( especialy those tiles near rivers ), and as much shore tiles as we can ( I will also propose building a Colosus in the future, to maximize that cash strategy ). The fact that we will have those cities so tight will gave us also oportunity to work the cottages all the time, when one city will have to build something and make some production, then anther will take the cottages. Good example for that is cities 4 an 6. City 4 has some production potencial, and might be use to build navy quite often, but it has also good cash potencial, so it can use cottages when it won't build anything importnat. When it will be in production mode, city 6 will take the duty on the cottages.

And we have another argument at sight. Building navy on Ghandis site shore. In Your plan Sooooo, there is no such city. We don't want to fight a lot with Ghandi, but we will need navy there, there no doubth we will. So we need a city like this ( city 4 ), which will build navy and also be able to generate cash when we won't build navy.

FYI - My power supply blew up yesterday so I will not be able to play until at least Friday (When my new PS is being delivered).
Hopefully it has not f#@ked up my motherboard or anything else, and i'll be able to play on the weekend.

But i would suggest to skip my go this time. Even if i can make it back or not for Friday.

OK. It looks like interest in this SGOTM is not as high as SGOTM3. That's fair enough - I don't think the scenario is that interesting either. People have put out alternate strategies and no one has decided which one is best. Again, this is understandable because no one knows how best to play this. We are a long way behind the other teams and turnsets are slow to come out because people want to wait until the same amount of pre-turnet discussion as SGOTM3 appears, which does not happen or happens slowly because the game is not as interesting.

So I'm going to make a suggestion. Let's just write off getting any award from this game and just have fun. To me, that means playing at a good pace to hold the interest. With a roster of seven, that means we can get a turnset every other day or so, and if the next player cannot play for a while then asks for a swap. If there is no discussion between the last turnset and the next then so be it. If someone fails to post a got-it within 24 hours of the last person playing then they are skipped. Let's just play it like a normal SG and catch up with the rest of the teams. Then maybe we can get back to competing for the awards in SGOTM5.

This is just a suggestion and I understand if it gets voted down. But I'm quite bored of playing 1 turnset a week with nothing to discuss in the meantime.

Roster is:

Manic - requests skip
sooooo - on deck
Kikinit
blid
Ralph
Rihiter
pindicator - UP

That suits me fine. A turnset per week is way too slow, even with SGOTM3, we kinda of lost momentum at the end when we had to wait a lot between turnsets. Setting strict 24-48 rule is ok.

Relating to the game, I still think it is in our best interest to settle the west coast for our third city to decide for mid and long term strategy, but that's just me. We should sign peace with Genghis asap

EDIT :
here's sooooo's dotmap. It has a Gandhi's shore site, orange dot which I think should be our next city

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/7775/northdotmapns9.jpg
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/9430/dotmapsouthzv0.jpg

yeah i think if no answer in 48 hours from the save being posted (and please put a link to the save in your posts, it's just a lot easier).

Be strict on this - at the exact minute 48 hours later the turnset gets moved to the on deck player.

If my ps doesnt work i'll load civ onto this comp on sat and play my turns then. but i'll be a little behind on strat ideas. I'll post if i'm playing either way.

I think people who upload their turnset should post a 'to do' for the next turnset.
Even if its simply 'get another settler and build libraries/granaries in other citis for example'

Also - wasnt someone not going to be able to play for a while? Cant remember who though... looking back in posts.

Manic

Did you guys check SGOTM 3 results ?
I'm not sure but it seems like we'll get a bronze medal because there is a 3 tie for silver :crazyeye:

Sorry for my absence but now I am back from Peru I will get properly engaged with the game.

I also like the more relaxed approach proposed by Soooo. I think the "interest" level will go up when we really feel we have a grip on the game.

For me this means understanding what the "challenge" is and an agreed plan to tackle it. Now I think we are still groping in the dark a bit with this one, not due to anybody's play or plans but this variant is quite hard to puzzle out a clear plan for; whereas in SGOTM3 we quickly had an objective (GP Farming to lightbulb techs towards MM + GE for the UN) and then did some really good analysis of plans / options to get there.

Anyway I will have a look at the save in depth today and try and put plans / options up for discussion but as long as we are having fun thats OK

Ralph

I am off to the UK tomorrow and do not as yet have any access to a PC for gaming. I must remember to take my CD's with me...

I will try and participate in discussions but I will be on permanent skip from playing until further notice.

Well lets try and agree our strategy for

a) The next 30 odd turns
b) Outline of our long term thinking

Next few turns

Well key for me is to start our expansion to the lovely city sites Gyathaar has provided.

Looking at the various dotmaps I think we just need to decide. For me Soooo's Orange dot is spot on. It is

Getting us a city on Gandhi's Coast which we need
and is picking up two seafood that it appears Gandhi can't use.

However I disagree with the Pink dot proposed for the city to pick up the silks to the SE of his Ornage dot. Uppsala needs to work the corn which Soooo had put in Pink Dots' BFC so that along with the Pigs it can work alll 3 of the Gold Mines (commerce / Research is key for us) Therefore I would pick up the silks and horses with a city more to the south.(thuis was in Rihiters Ver 3 Dotmap I beleive) The combination of these two would leave a dotmap for the coming turns of
1. Red Dot (little circles are luvverly financial riverside cottages)
2. Revised Pink Dot

Shown here
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j19/Ralph_Jackson/1dotmap-1.jpg

So for me the priorities are:-

Don't prosecute the war with Khan just wait until we can get peace from here. (Sorry Rihiter but that decision was pure :smoke: no matter how "lucky" you were with the RNG - Dont forget it doesn't allow properly for 1st Strikes so our odds were less than 16%). Now is not the time to be taking his cities as we want to be settling and growing ours.

Settle the cities above and get cottages down so they can start growing as we are going to want a pile of riverside towns later in the game (for me the settlers are far higher priority than the Colossus as all our sites have lots of non-sea based commerce potential).

Research wise this means post sailing get Iron working to clear riverside jungle for cottages (we can do sailing first as we can build workboats in Orange / Red Dot while we wait for IW to come in).

Builds for me would be standard settler + escort / Garrison Axes and only after two settlers have been sent out build exploring ships.

Longer Term

I think the heart of Rihiter's religion managment plan is sound which makes the next key objective getting Judaism somehow and real exploration with workbaots / triremes.

Sounds good - i think put that into action.

I think basically this game is a wait and see what ghandi has kinda game.
We don't really know how to play it.

Actually giving Ghandi and GK a + modifier of war buddies (if that is the case) might be a stroke of luck as we can feed GK with techs to make him sweet and he can inturn feed big g.

giving Ghandi and GK a + modifier of war buddies (if that is the case)

Good point I see no reason why they shouldn't rack up MMS bonuses whilst the phony war goes on and that could prove helpful.

Ralph

OK Manic, pindicator seems to be out of action with moving house so feel free to post a got it on Saturday.

I still think that we should first settle here!

150637

This is Khans next settle place ( or somwhere near ). Beside that fisrt we need cities which will have some production, which will be able to build another settlers, axes etc... Those cities on the west cost on the begining will have almost only jungle. And even if we clear that jungle they will have mostly cash generating plots , no production, no extra big amounts of food. Pink dot will have production, but no food, red dot will have some extra food when we build work boats, but until then, there is pure jungle... and building those work boats will take ages.

Building those cities first will slow us down, because those cities need lots of work to get them productive. And we need that productive right away!

My proposition is: first settle that city which I have showned on the picture abow, then settle pink dot.

Hmm, we don't have calendar or iron working yet, so your city will have no food right now. At least the coastal city can build some work boats to whip in improvements, and some plains forests for production.

Ok, lets do some counting:

All is counted without food prod and commers which goes from city tile.

Red Spot
tiles aviable right away after settling:
clams 2F 3C
x2 forest/grassland 2F 1H ( with farm 3F 1C )
x4 coast 1F 3C
----------------
6F 2H 3C ( I don't count coast ), we can also chop forests for some production, and make farms ( 8F 0H!!! 5C - more food, even less production ), but this suposse to be a cash city, so do we want to build farms and then build cottagest on them??? Waste of workers turns. Building WB here will also take some time and wiping, and still there will be only food. After Ghandi gets sailing, he builds a galley and we don't have fishing nets any more. Imagine, how long it will take to build a galley or tireme here. Remember we cannot wipe all the time.
tiles aviable after border pop (15 turns):
fish 2F 1C
grassland 2F 1C
forests/plains 1F 2H
--------
6F 2H 2C
Rest is jungle.

After 25turns from settling this city will have a potencial of 14F 4H 7C (with forests), with farms will have more food and even less production. There will be no trade in this city fore some time (until roads are built). Distance from our capital = 8 tiles. Khan can still expand north.

My city
tiles aviable right away after settling:
hills/grasland 1F 3H (with mines, which we can build right away)
hills/grasland+fresh water 1F 3H 1C
grassland 2F 1C
forest/plains 1F 2H
-------------
5F 8H 1C ( even with 1 pop we have some production, with 2 pop we have quite nice production )
tiles aviable after border pop (15 turns):
2x grasland + farms 3F 1C ( this supose to be a production city, so building some farms won't be a waste of workers turns )
marble 1F 2H ( with quarry 1F 3H 3C )
----------------
7F 2H 1C ( 7F 3H 4C )

After 25 turns from settling this city will have a potencial of 10F 9H 6C ( counted for 5 best tiles ). We will get cash from trade from the time we settle. Distance from our capital = 4 tiles. We will block Khans settling place with this city.

Pink dot
tiles aviable right away after settling:
horses+pasture 1F 4H 1C
forest/grassland 2F 1H -> with farm 3F 1C ( this suposse to be a production/cash city so building some farms won't ba a waste of worker turns ).
grassland + farm 3F 1C
---------------
6F 5H 2C ( 7F 4H 3C )
tiles aviable after border pop (15 turns):
hills/grasland+mine 1F 3H 1C
hills/plains+mine 4H 1C
plain 1F 1H
------------
1F 7H 2C ( I don't count the plain )

After 25 turns from settling this city will have a potencial of 8F 11H 5C ( counted for 5 best tiles ). City is now a little short on food (because of all those jungles) but it can work with no problem 2 farms + hill+mine and horses, providing us with enough food and good hammer production. Trade won't be aviable for some time (untill roads). Distance from our capital = 5 tiles (cant) . We will block Khans pottencial settling place with this city, what is important we will take horses and cut Khan away from them.

For me is quite obvious that the Red Dod is the worse choise from those 3. Only food and no production. High risk of Ghandis galleys. Big dinstance from capital. Lots of jungle - health.
If you want a city on the west coast so badly, then Pink Dot is much better. But still I would first build the city I mentioned ( do you want Khan to settle somewhere over there? probably on some stupid place, AI often take idiotic settling places, they like to settle on hills very much... ).

There is also a chanve that if we leave Red Dot empty for now, Ghandi will settle there and we will take this city ( maybe with judaism allready? ).

I think we don't agree because we are reasoning about different views. When I said I liked red dot, I never said it was a better city than the marble one on the production front.
You based your plans on this sentence : "What we need most is production". You didn't explain why. Maybe our best choice is fast growth ? or maybe early commerce ? What I want to say is that we don't know yet what our future plan would be and the faster we have a trireme going, the faster we'll get clearer ideas about long term strategy. You didn't say a single word about going over there checking who is west of Gandhi, getting new contacts, spreading our religion maybe ?

Now let me point some things out :

1- Gandhi would have a very hard time settling red dot. He needs to raze the barb city before that, and the hell would freeze before he does that with units transported via galleys. He can settle further in the north but it would wreck our dot map
2- I don't want to lock off Genghis in the south : we have plenty of land to settle and our economy can't handle too much cities until we have a solid core. And I don't want to cripple Genghis, this is not a good idea. He is Gandhi's partner until we have proof of the opposite. And then, we would capture matured cities
3- In warlords, AI has tendency to choose nicer city sites. It avoids settling 1 tile from the coast unless spot is really good and it settles on resources if need be
4- counting 8 tiles distance from the capital is cheating :) we need to connect Uppsala anyway, distance between Uppsala and red dot is equal to distance between capital and marble city
5- pink dot is OTOH too far away from the capital

Hey, the move is mostly done! At least, I've gotten everything out of the old place and turned in the keys. Now to slowly unpack for the next month :)

Go ahead and take it Manic, I need to read up and get up to speed.

Anwser to blid post.

Maybe I express my thoughs wrong or not clearly. By production I didn't meant hammers, I mean productivity as an overal fact. If we settle in red dot, we are "blocked" for a long time with further actions. This city will need lot of attention and lot of worker turns. It will take many many turns till we will able to get something usefull from that city (and even then the risk of ghandis navy will be very high - building our own navy there, where is almost no hammers potential, will be hard ). If we settle in the site I'm proposing ( I will call it green dot from now ) we will get some rational benefits after 15-20 turns - we will have to build 2 mines at the begining and then 1 quarry and 2 farms. And we can use this productivity for further expansion/military or else.

If you want to explore Ghandis site, then we need pink dot, this city is cappable of building a navy. We need to build farm, horses and a mine there, and the city is nicley productive. And also by building those two cities we state a border betwen our and Khan's lands - "greenland is ours".

1) We will raze the barb city with our first or second Axe. There were warriors in that city, I doubth that barbs will have archers till we send an axe there, so ti will fall preaty soon and with no problem.
2) We need to take all that "greenland" with rivers, this will be our cash center. The land which is north from our capital is not good for cash cities, so we need lands which are south from our capital first. Beside that there is marble and horses. If we cut of Khan from horses, he won't be able to build his special unit ( unleas there are some other horses to the east - we must send thae worrior there and check - but if there are more horses they are probably far away ).
3) Well... in pure Civ4 AI was very often settling idiotic. In warlords AI is very often settling stupid. I agree there is a progres; idiotic -> stupid. But still I don't want a stupid city.
4) I was more thinking about corruption/maintance costs, not roads.
5) It is not. Is closer then red dot.

Ok, sorry about this. Skip my go also - my cpu problems are worse and i have to get a new m'board and cpu (allways liked the look of those Core2 Duo's :p).
Will be up i hope on thursday so thats too long to wait.

so sooooo is up now :)

Played 14 turns.

IHT: mm Nidaros, stonehenge down to 11 turns, due to grow in 9. It is at the happy cap, but conveniently the whip anger wears off in 9 turns.

T2 (1300 BC): Start a cottage in between Uppsala and Nidaros, so either city can use it at any time.

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/9509/cottagevc9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

T4 (1240 BC): Chop for SH comes in, mm stonehenge down to 3 turns.

T5 (1210 BC): In an anti-road movement, our two newly unemployed workers go the the gold to mine it. We don't need no roads!

T6 (1180 BC): Sweet, no one built Stonehenge this turn. It's ours.

T7 (1150 BC): Our druids work out how to put some big stones in a circle.

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/6710/stonehengedu7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

T8 (1120 BC): OK, I begin a road.

T9 (1090 BC): Gold mine done, road it. Mmm, cash.

T11 (1030 BC): Change of heart, roads are still bad. Send that worker to build a mine on a plains hill at Nidaros.

T12 (1000 BC): Start 2 mines. 1 hopes to find gold, the other mundane rocks.

T13 (985 BC): Sailing -> Iron Working. Not sure this is the best tech, but only 1 turn put into it.

T14 (870 BC): Finsh axe in Nidaros, start settler. But we may want another axe first, not sure.

http://img453.imageshack.us/img453/1139/empireshotti0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Barb city is only defended by 2 warriors. Maybe 1 axe will do to raze it before they build archers. Do not whip granary in Uppsala! It can build it naturally, and fund our early techs as it works the gold.

http://img453.imageshack.us/img453/4181/blid03uz5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Let's hope our Viking game turns out better than this one (sorry blid :lol:)

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/Fistful_of_Dynamite_SG004_BC0970_01.CivWarlordsSav e

Blid is up!

Manic - Broken computer, drinking tea
sooooo - Just Played, also drank some tea
Kikinit - Arrived in UK, may get deported depending on cricket result next Sunday
blid - UP, eating cheese
Ralph - On Deck, wearing kilt
Rihiter - Drinking Cracovia
pindicator - Errr, I know nothing about Oregon.

I got it. Eating cheese and drinking wine

Arghhh, you kept that compromising screenshot :backstab:. Mind we are already at war with our two neighbours :lol:

Well, if we cut Genghis from the green line (TM), it means we are commited to cripple him and kill him sometimes in the near future, maybe after extorting some techs. Having said that, do we go pink or green first ?
If we fear Genghis would settle a stpid city (@Rihiter : Blake would appreciate the idiotic->stupid transition ;) ) near marble, we can post a sentinel to kill archer in the open but if Genghis sends two archers for escort, we're screwed. Let's hope he would be too hasty and not do so

I would try to raze the barb city using the one axe. But I think we need another one anyway before the settler

I like IW, to get a head start on clearing all that jungle. We also need to make more contacts before starting the techwhoring

pindicator - Errr, I know nothing about Oregon.

Sipping on an Oregon microbrew!!!! :D

Wikipedia says (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microbrewery) that Portland, Oregon has the highest amount of micro-breweries than any other metropolitan area in the US.

I would send that axe we allready have south, to secure the settling place.
Then wipe a settler fast and make him follow the axe.
Build another axe, send it to barb city. If there are warriors, then we don't need to hurry. Archers won't be in fast I think.

p.s. That cottage wasn'a a good idea, especialy that one city suppose to be a GPF, and another supose to be a production city (it won't be cash city with all those hills and almost no river tiles). A farm near the lake would be far more useful, and after CS, a fart in place where the cottage is right now.

a fart in place where the cottage is right now.

Sorry just couldn't resist the quote...

Re "protecting" Green Dot Site sending an Axe down on Sentry Duty sounds like a no lose option:-.

1. Genghis doesn't settle -Then axe has busted the fog for our settler to proceed and is ready made temporary garrison (as it is where Genghis might attack a warrior would not be enough of a garrison)
2. Genghis tries to settle escorted by only 1 Archer; gives us another Free worker.
3. Genghis tries to settle with 2 Archer escort. Kill 1 in the open with the axe which can than quickly raze the single archer garrisoned city if its in the "wrong" place or 2 make ready to save us a settler by taking the city at size 2 if in the right place?

Personally I think Genghis is building military not settlers at the moment so it will be Option 1

So I think we send axe down south + whip build settler but let the next player decide (as turns unfold) if we may be able to save this for Pink / Red Dot if Genghis settles "intelligently"


Ralph

Rihiter, why do you want Uppsala to be a production city, no commerce? It's got 3 gold mines! Easily enough food to feed them (pigs and corn), so rest can be cottaged.

I'm also against making the captial a GPF. Capital is amazing, and is a complete waste to make it a GPF. Cottage it to death I say, take advantage of bureaucracy. I like GPF with about 3 food bonus, but little good grassland (eg fishing village). True there isn't a stand-out candidate, but I'm really against GP farm in the Nidaros.

Being financial, specialization is not as important as, say, philosophical.

Re Gp farm

As we are financial & going deep into the tech tree we are in a situation where if a city can support an early cottage it will usually be worthwhile.

Additonally we will need less GP's than usual as we need 1 for the shrine which Stonehenge will bring us and our GScientists will go to Academies in High research cities as we will have the number of turns to make this a clear winner.

Lastly making the capital a GP farm feels worng as it will be a mixed GProphet G Scientist pool from Stonehenge. For this reason I would hope to Build the GL not in our capital (probably Uppsala?) and use this to provide our academy GS's. I may be wrong but with Pigs + Corn Uppsala can work all 3 Gold mines (and switch to Plains Mines to boost :hammers: temporarily for GL) and therefore self supporting 2 :food: cottages are good?

Ralph

My plan : send current axe to marble site on patrolling duty.
Build another axe in the capital.
Send the second axe to raze barb city and start a settler
Then axe/settler go to pink dot

I would go with settler first only if you want the green dot before the pink one. If we steal marble city, Genghis would turn to the horse site, that is nearly 100% sure. So why just not steal the horse site, and keep an axe watching the marble site

I would probably play tomorrow

I like switching to axe too, sending other axe to look at barb city. I think barb city will have archers very soon.

Going to get my new m'board and cpu tomorrow ( i hope) so i'll play then - if soooo has time to play now please skip my go as we need to get along more than we have been doing.

Sorry - weird - i didnt download the posts - ignor last comment

Yeah i think even getting 2x axes now would be an idea just in case GK gets a city on the marble/horse.
Send the first axe en route to the barb city and take one warrior to try and get a promotion? Maybe Cover I ?!? (We are aggressive yes? been a while :) )

Also - GPF can be made on the red dot - as it will have the fish & clams & farmable river even before CS. IT could still work 6 or 7 tiles and be pop 14-15 giving 6-8 Scientists (Along with the 2 from GL)

I played 12 turns

On inherited turn, I switched the capital to an axe

On turn 1, I spotted this :

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/82148/01.jpg


So much about setting an axe watching. Rihiter, you got your stupid city.
Early on, AI is mad about settling

I set Uppsala to work the second gold mine the turn it was finished
Genghis had eyes on the barb city but our axe already killed the first warrior and razed the city this turn

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/82148/02.jpg


Razing the city gave us 91 gold, setting the slider at 100% again.
After putting a turn into a settler, I whipped the settler for 3 pops, one of them a lazy bum

At some time, Genghis was ready to sign peace ... in exchange of Uppsala :rolleyes:
He changhed his mind later. Better say no than ask for impossible things

The workers connected Uppsala with capital. They finished another hill mine and prefarmed the corn. I had to stop them working the corn due to the annoying archer next to our axe

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/82148/03.jpg


The settler is in pink dot with our CRII axe. I hope Genghis don't have horses somewhere else. If he sends a couple chariots to pink dot, we would probably loose the city. I think we need to raze his hill city before signing peace but it would need at least two axes, maybe three if he sends another archer there

There is an iron deposit in the north near the sheep. I put a turn of research into writing, which can be completed in 4. Research rate is huge

save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4//Fistful_of_Dynamite_SG004_BC0790_01.CivWarlordsSav e)

Ok I have got it and if a plan emerges in the next 12 hours will play tonight (wednesday) if not tomorrow so we can keep the game moving.

So questions (bear in mind I am at work and haven't opened the save so I maybe be missing something obviosu and crucial!)

1. Do we settle Pink Dot risking a counterattack?
2. Build 2 (probably 3, looks like it currently only has a single Archer Garrison but may well have 2 when we attack ) axes to tackle Rihiter's well forecast Stupid City (our new city will need an appropriate name!) and then seek Peace

Research writing-> Iron working or Alphabet ?

My sugestions:

1) Settle pink dot, don;t worry about conterstrike
2) send warrior with 2x woodsmen to explore east ( we need to know about those horses )
3) promote Axe to cover, kill that anoing archer
4) aster grownth in Nidaris, optimize production and build an axe, then start and wipe a settler
5) after barracks wipe axe in Upssala
6) send 3 axes (one with cover + two new), to raze Stupid City
7) settle the marble site on our own

Reserch: Writing ->...
Maybe not alphabet yet, it's 18t to reserch it. Maybe something from the botom of the table, like masonary or meditation? Or maybe Matematics??? If we will drag war with Khan till we get Alpfabet, maybe we will get something in exchange for peace. But first we must threaten him a little bit, raze a city, kill some cows ;]

About Nidaris. Maybe your right sooooo about not making a GPF of it. Maybe cottaging & beuracracy will be a nice thing. We are finical, so we can concentrate on it, and in this case maybe we don't need a GPF, just lots of cash. We will eventualny get prophet for our shirine, and then we will make some scientists for academies. And that's it, no more running after GP.

About Upsalla. It has many hills and good food production, so it's a perfect production city. It has gold, thats true, but we can't make a cash city from a good production city just because it's there!!! We don't have many good places for production cities, remember that.

Ralph, we have iron working. Alphabet won't help us with trading, but I think we should build the great library with having marble nearby. So I propose a tech path of alphabet, masonry, literature. As Rihiter says, settle pink dot, then marble city.

After those techs, I think we should tech towards caravels to meet some new civs. So that means metal casting, machinery, compass, optics.

Well a fiddly set of turns with one bit of bad luck but not a disaster

Turn 1 Khans Archer moves NE next to Uppsala, the newly promoted cover axe deals with him. 86% odds but we had a warrior on hand in case the RNG were cruel!!

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j19/Ralph_Jackson/5Twitchy.jpg
Frees up the workers to finish farming the corn and connect it to the River for Pink Dot’
Haibathu settled and starts on a Granary.

Set up cities to grow appropriately juggling the pigs between Nidaros ensures Nidaros will get to pop 6 at the same time as its lighthouse finishes

Build Order is Uppsala Barracks -> 2 * axe with a touch of the whip
Nidaros Lighthouse settler. The settler needs to be ready with the 2 axes so it can settle marble site quickly

Now our woodsmen 11 warrior is off exploring east, not discovering anything useful until a barb archer pounces. He survives this but not the follow up attack from Khan. So apologies he is history.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j19/Ralph_Jackson/5woodie.jpg
Turn 10

Hinduism spreads to Uppsala

EOT Report (14 turns played)

Temple of Artemis BIFAL
Gandhi has Monarchy

One axe outside “Rihiter saw it coming” ville aka Ning Hsia with 2 more on their way.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j19/Ralph_Jackson/5eotrep.jpg
The settler has just finished so no hammers invested in either their or Uppsala so we can debate next builds. Irritating Marble city still has only 1 archer so if ww are quick we can easily raze for the settler moving in behind.
Alphabet in 4 who knows we might get a Tech for peace.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/Fistful_of_Dynamite_SG004_BC0790_02.CivWarlordsSav e

Here is your Session Turn Log from 970 BC to 790 BC:


Turn 107, 895 BC: You have trained a Axeman in Nidaros. Work has now begun on a Settler.

Turn 108, 880 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman (5.50) vs Barbarian's Warrior (2.00)
Turn 108, 880 BC: Combat Odds: 99.9%
Turn 108, 880 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 108, 880 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 108, 880 BC: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 108, 880 BC: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 108, 880 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 32 (68/100HP)
Turn 108, 880 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 32 (36/100HP)
Turn 108, 880 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman is hit for 12 (88/100HP)
Turn 108, 880 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman is hit for 12 (76/100HP)
Turn 108, 880 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman is hit for 12 (64/100HP)
Turn 108, 880 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 32 (4/100HP)
Turn 108, 880 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman is hit for 12 (52/100HP)
Turn 108, 880 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman is hit for 12 (40/100HP)
Turn 108, 880 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 32 (0/100HP)
Turn 108, 880 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 108, 880 BC: The borders of Nidaros have expanded!
Turn 108, 880 BC: The borders of Uppsala have expanded!

Turn 109, 865 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman (3.85) vs Barbarian's War