SGOTM 04 - Geezers [Archive] - Civilization Fanatics' Forums

AlanH

Feb 22, 2007, 05:15 PM

Welcome to your C_IV Warlords SGOTM 4 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

The Game
This Monarch difficulty game is on a Standard size, Gyathaar-special, fractal map, at Epic speed, against 7 rivals including India. All victory conditions are enabled except Diplomatic, but the laurels for this contest will be awarded to the teams who achieve the fastest Space defeat by Gandhi.

Versions
This game will be played in Warlords Version 2.08 only.

It will be played using the current version of the HoF Mod. This is version 2.08.003 for Windows. There are insufficient Mac players to form a Mac team. so it will be played in Windows only.

If later versions of Warlords or the HoF Mod are released they cannot be used for this game.

Your start file will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php) at midnight, server local time, at the start of February 23.

Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm4_start_small.jpg (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm4_start_large.jpg)

Map Parameters
Playable Leader/Civ - Ragnar of The Vikings
Rivals - 7 civs including Gandhi (who is locked in war with Ragnar)
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Monarch
Landform - Fractal, cylindrical, medium sea level, temperate
Game Speed - Epic
Diplomatic Victory Disabled
All other settings are defaults

Notes

Please visit the C-IV Warlords SGOTM reference thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208462) to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.

Warlords v.2.08 is supported for this SGOTM. No other versions can be used, and you will have to stick with the same version throughout the game.

Teams will compete for up to four awards - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher.

Awards will be given to teams who achieve Space defeats to India in the least turns.

All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

Please enjoy the game :)

Htadus

Feb 22, 2007, 05:34 PM

:) Checking in. Here's to a winning SGOTM. Oh I forgot. YAAAAHOOOOOO ME FIRST.:woohoo:

I am going to open Word and write my thoughts on winning this game to get the discussion started. But one thing is for sure, with Civ4 getting a civ to the stars is much easy than C3, we just need to make sure that India survive and is a powerhouse, either 1st or 2nd place, in all but cultural side. Be back with more.

Thrallia

Feb 22, 2007, 07:16 PM

Second to check in :)

I've already pm'd a question to Alan concerning the state of our AW condition with Gandhi.

My thought is that we could vassalize him, then gift him back all his cities until he is large enough to break free of our vassalage...at that point, unless I'm mistaken, the AW will be destroyed and we would be free to attempt to woo Gandhi into a PA later on, allowing us to help Gandhi build the spaceship :)

Hopefully he gets back to me one way or the other tonight.

Jenarie

Feb 22, 2007, 07:21 PM

Can you gift cities to a vassal? I've tried that before and couldn't do it but I don't remember the conditions under which I was making the attempt.

Also checking in. I have tons of thoughts on this variant but I'll try to put them into some semi-coherent form before posting. :)

Edit: Gave up on form and just started posting.

The-Hawk

Feb 22, 2007, 07:35 PM

Hi everyone... checking in :D

My thought is that we could vassalize him, then gift him back all his cities until he is large enough to break free of our vassalage...at that point, unless I'm mistaken, the AW will be destroyed and we would be free to attempt to woo Gandhi into a PA later on, allowing us to help Gandhi build the spaceship :)

Not sure the last part of this will work. If we are in a PA, I believe we share victory or defeat. I would think this means if Ghandi launches, we also win. The OP says laurels go to the "fastest Space defeat by Ghandi"...

However, it is a very clever idea ;)

Thrallia

Feb 22, 2007, 07:53 PM

hmm...true. I also just saw that it says "you are allowed no peace treaties"
I guess that takes the wind out of those sails...although I suppose we could possibly vassalize him still, gift him all our techs, and then try to figure out how to unvassalize him into a war status again...

huh, perhaps I should scrap the idea and start thinking of some other ideas.

Now, it does sound as if we'll be close to India, since we are a 'neighbor' of India in the game description...we just need to figure out where he is and work out some way to enable him to have enough production/commerce to get to space quickly.

The-Hawk

Feb 22, 2007, 09:35 PM

huh, perhaps I should scrap the idea and start thinking of some other ideas.

I don't think you should scrap it yet :) . I don't think the PA part will work, but the vassal part might. I have no experience with vassals, but if we can use that as a mechanism for gifting techs, then I think we should explore it. Especially if the master can voluntarily terminate the vassalage. I.e. early war to vassalize him, then turn the economy over to full science, gift him techs, unvassalize him and hope he decides to build a spaceship. Certainly worth doing some research on vassals.

Jenarie

Feb 22, 2007, 09:45 PM

I like the idea a lot. Very creative and I doubt other teams would have thought of it.

I'm wondering though if vassal = peace treaty? I'm not sure how it works with the rules.

Jenarie

Feb 22, 2007, 11:43 PM

The variant reminds me of two old RB ones I read a few months ago. They had to get the first civ they met to space although they didn't have the complication of always war. I just skimmed through them and I think the space elevator idea is about all we can possibly use but they are really great reads if you have some time. RB24-Big Brother (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=186064) & RB24s - Big Sister (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=186071)

In Big Sister, ruff_hi built the space elevator and then gifted the city. Obviously that won't work for us but I was thinking last night since we'd be at war we could possibly copy that tactic except just build it on the border with Ghandi and walk all our troops out of it so he could take it. We'd have to guard it to make sure no other civ got it but I think it should be doable?

Bede also discovered (in Big Brother) that you can use your engineers to rush production of another civ's build. He helped Monty build the space elevator. I don't think this would be usable though during war but I'm not sure... with a good escort we could get the engineer there but I doubt he could get into the city to rush. Does anyone know offhand if it is possible to gift a unit while at war? You don't have to worry about open boarders to get into the territory so if you can gift before it is killed we might be able to do that?

Sam_Yeager

Feb 23, 2007, 12:12 AM

Checking in.

Some initial thoughts:

Early Game Priorities

Scouting - Find out if Ghandhi's on our land. Frankly I wouldn't be surprised if Gyathaar has placed him on another continent. :( I've just remembered that Ragnar's UB gives +1 to naval movement so that seems even more likely. :hmm: Find out who else is on our island/continent.
Build up our military power - We really want to kill off any aggressive civs that might divert Ghandhi from space. Scientific civs should be left as trading partners (for the time being).
If we find Ghandhi is on another continent then we need to beeline Optics to find out where he is.
If Ghandhi is on our continent then we probably want to capture/build(?) some cities near him that he can 'capture' to help him expand.

Middle Game Priorities

As we can't trade with Ghandhi then we need to find some civs to trade with that we can be fairly certain will also trade with Ghandhi - That way we can help his research. :D
To be able to accomplish this we obviously need some decent science of our own. Great Library would be helpful. :)
Probably worth building the UN to make sure nobody else does. We obviously need to make sure that that we will be elected SecGen so that we control what resolutions get put forward.

End Game Priorities

Make sure no other civ will beat Ghandhi. :evil: Realistically this means armed force so we will need to have built up military power by this stage.
Find out where key resources exist, such as aluminium,and liberate them so that Ghandhi can make best use of them.
If at all feasible it would be convenient if we could build helpful wonders, the space elevator for example, for Ghadhi to 'capture' from us. :mischief: This means having the odd Great Engineer(s) hanging about to help build them.

Sam_Yeager

Feb 23, 2007, 12:13 AM

Turn 1: 4000 BC - 2800 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=4#75)
Turn 2: 2800 BC - 2200 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=7#133)
Turn 3: 2200 BC - 1600 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=8#149)
Turn 4: 1600 BC - 1030 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=9#178)
Turn 5: 1030 BC - 700 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=11#214)
Turn 6: 700 BC - 400 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=15#287)
Turn 7: 400 BC - 250 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=16#320)
Turn 8: 250 BC - 100 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=18#345)
Turn 9: 50 AD - 200 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=21#419)
Turn 10: 200 AD - 350 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=22#438)
Turn 11: 350 AD - 500 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=23#448)
Turn 12: 500 AD - 650 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=24#478)
Turn 13: 650 AD - 800 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=25#484)
Turn 14: 800 AD - 950 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=26#502)
Turn 15: 950 AD - 1100 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=26#518)
Turn 16: 1100 AD - 1160 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=27#530)
Turn 17: 1160 AD - 1220 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=28#553)
Turn 18: 1220 AD - 1280 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=30#586)
Turn 19: 1280 AD - 1340 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=31#603)
Turn 20a: 1340 AD - 1388 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=32#634)
TUrn 20b: 1388 AD - 1400 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=32#638)
Turn 21a: 1400 AD - 1406 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=33#643)
Turn 21b: 1406 AD - 1460 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=33#653)
Turn 22: 1460 AD - 1520 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=34#673)
Turn 23: 1520 AD - 1550 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=35#685)
Turn 24: 1550 AD - 1580 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=36#703)
Turn 25a: 1580 AD - 1601 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=36#719)
Turn 25b: 1601 AD - 1610 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=37#723)

Sam_Yeager

Feb 23, 2007, 12:14 AM

Turn 26a: 1610 AD - 1622 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=38#744)
Turn 26b: 1625 AD - 1640 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=38#751)
Turn 27a: 1640 AD - 1658 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=39#769)
Turn 27b: 1658 AD - 1670 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=40#784)
Turn 28: 1670 AD - 1700 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=40#799)
Turn 29: 1700 AD - 1730 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=41#811)
Turn 30: 1730 AD - 1750 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=42#833)
Turn 31: 1750 AD - 1770 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=43#844)
Turn 32: 1770 AD - 1790 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=43#859)
Turn 33: 1790 AD - 1810 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=44#875)
Turn 34a: 1810 AD - 1813 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=45#887)
Turn 34b: 1813 AD - 1815 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=46#903)
Turn 34c: 1815 AD - 1817 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=46#911)
Turn 35a: 1817 AD - 1822 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=46#919)
Turn 35b: 1823 AD - 1827 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=47#922)
Turn 36a: 1827 AD - 1834 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=47#939)
Turn 36b: 1834 AD - 1840 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=48#943)
Turn 37: 1840 AD - 1850 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=48#948)
Turn 38a: 1850 AD - 1855 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=48#956)
Turn 38b: 1855 AD - 1860 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=48#960)
Turn 39: 1860 AD - 1870 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=49#969)
Turn 40: 1870 AD - 1880 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=50#981)
Turn 41: 1880 AD - 1890 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=50#991)
Turn 42: 1890 AD - 1900 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=50#997)
Turn 43: 1900 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=51#1009)
Turn 44: 1900 AD - 1910 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=51#1016)
Turn 53: 1910 AD - 1920 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=52#1033)
Turn 54: 1921 AD - 1930 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=52#1040)
Turn 55: 1930 AD - 1940 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=53#1045)
Last Turn : 1940 AD - 1943 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208783&page=53#1057)

Sam_Yeager

Feb 23, 2007, 12:23 AM

The variant reminds me of two old RB ones I read a few months ago. They had to get the first civ they met to space although they didn't have the complication of always war.

Yes, I previously followed those.

In Big Sister, ruff_hi built the space elevator and then gifted the city. Obviously that won't work for us but I was thinking last night since we'd be at war we could possibly copy that tactic except just build it on the border with Ghandi and walk all our troops out of it so he could take it. We'd have to guard it to make sure no other civ got it but I think it should be doable?

I see we think alike. :D

Bede also discovered (in Big Brother) that you can use your engineers to rush production of another civ's build. He helped Monty build the space elevator.

IIRC Bede's team had an OB and were friendly. They may even have had a DP. None of which will apply to us.

I don't think this would be usable though during war but I'm not sure... with a good escort we could get the engineer there but I doubt he could get into the city to rush. Does anyone know offhand if it is possible to gift a unit while at war? You don't have to worry about open boarders to get into the territory so if you can gift before it is killed we might be able to do that?

I suspect the game would regard it as an attack. The 'capture' route is probably the better idea.

Jenarie

Feb 23, 2007, 12:51 AM

You start the game as a neighbour of India. Following the pact you are at permanent war with Gandhi, and will remain so for the rest of the game. You are allowed no peace treaties with India. And India must win by space victory. All victory conditions are enabled except Diplomatic, but the winning team will be the one that gets India to Alpha Centauri, and does it fastest.

From what AlanH posted in the sign up thread I think we'll find him right away. I guess "neighbour" could be relative but I was thinking we'd be right next to him.

I was thinking the same thing last night about finding trading partners that are also friends with Gandhi although when the thread opened everything I'd thought went out of my head. I think since we will ALWAYS be at war with him, we won't get any negative "you declared war on our friend" type faction hits so if we can manage to run diplomacy to be friends with his friends (maybe through religion?) we might be able to feed him techs pretty easily.

So agree that the key will be getting ahead and staying ahead in tech so we can spread what we want him to have. We may have to trade them out to several civs to bring the value down enough for other civs to trade them quickly to Gandhi unless he has a really close friend. Also agree that we'll need to keep our military up enough to cripple anyone who looks like they may launch - it seems more likely if we are spreading techs around trying to get them to Gandhi that another civ may try. You guys can probably come up with a less messy way of "gifting" though and it wouldn't be as much of an issue. :)

I'm at a disadvantage in this game as I've never even tried for a space victory much less won one. I'll try to play some single player space games but most of my previous games have been won by culture before people would go space so I'm not even very familiar with the techs that far along in the tree.

Guess I'll stop haunting the board and go start one of those practice games. No more babble from me tonight I promise. :)

Edit: Please let me know if I am talking too much. I tend to say whatever I'm thinking when I'm thinking it but I don't want to annoy people. I've been known to post one thing then after thinking about it come back an hour later and disagree with myself. If you'd prefer I think things out fully before posting I can try so you don't have so much babble to read through.

I quit my job a couple months ago to take care of my mom who had some medical issues (she's a lot better now) so I'm home and bored all day which is why I have so much time to haunt the board.

Htadus

Feb 23, 2007, 01:33 AM

I see Jenarie beat me to it.:goodjob:

I think Gandhi is going to be on the same continent since in the signup thread ALanH said "You start the game as a neighbour of India. Following ......"

I do not think we can vassel Gandhi since that would mean no war. But it is an excellent idea to get the Mod to comment on it. I wondered about that too but then recalled the always war condition.

General stratergy:

Protect ourself and India.
Build several finance cities near india and let Gandhi capture them as the available land become limited during late early game. This should prevent them from razing them and by that time code of Law should be available to help us perhaps relocate.
Since india will found a religion we should get it and spread it to other civs.
Build Great Lib in a city to be turned over to India.
We should deny india the cultural route, so no early gifting of Pyramids;built or captured.
We should trade (and gift) techs freely.
We should eliminate any dead beat civ's who are not teching and perhaps Agressive ones.
Pass UN resolution for no nukes. Maybe after we build a few.:D

Early game:
Strategy:
Scout around. Build up our strength/power.
First priority is to build up our defense or offense. I rarely go for archery (always trade) but in this game, I am willing to vote for Archery.

Science: Archery or to Mining and Bronze Working. My preferance is BW for needed chops for settlers and follwed by Archery if no copper nearby.

Build: WB,Scout, Worker and WB or WB, worker, Scout and WB. I prefer latter. Since there is no way to get Gandhi to build the oracle, we should do it if we do not have to build many units in a hurry. If stone is near it would be nice to know where on Fractal we are located via SH. I am guessing we are north of EQ.

Mid Game:
Who knows :) now, we will know when we get there.

Htadus

Feb 23, 2007, 01:35 AM

:undecide: BTW. Aren't GL are invisible to others.

markh

Feb 23, 2007, 02:16 AM

Good morning ladies and gentlemen !

We are already first in posts.:woohoo:

UN is out. We do not have to worry about it. It is disabled.;) We just have to keep an eye on the domination limit and that no other AI beats Gandhi in the space race.

I think we have to see where Gandhi is first before we can set up a plan how to get him to the stars. If he is isolated like in the original Civ3 SGOTM the whole situation changes. I would like to have a look at the game first before posting my ideas.

@Jenarie: Don't hesitate to post what ever you think of. Any ideas will help.

markh

Feb 23, 2007, 02:24 AM

We have three proposed city sites. :crazyeye: I think we should move the scout on the proposed site SW to see what is there. If we settle in place a workboat seems obvious.

Sam_Yeager

Feb 23, 2007, 02:30 AM

UN is out. We do not have to worry about it. It is disabled.;)

:blush: I did read that Diplo victory was disabled but forgot it. However presumably the UN itself is still valid in terms of passing other resolutions? Something to bear in mind anyway.

Sam_Yeager

Feb 23, 2007, 02:36 AM

I think we should move the scout on the proposed site SW to see what is there. If we settle in place a workboat seems obvious.

:confused: If you mean move the scout to the proposed site SW then I agree.

markh

Feb 23, 2007, 02:43 AM

:confused: If you mean move the scout to the proposed site SW then I agree.

Of course to the site. :crazyeye:

Sam_Yeager

Feb 23, 2007, 02:44 AM

I am guessing we are north of EQ.

I'm pretty certain they changed the resource arrows in Warlords so that they all point the same way in order to prevent this type of spoiler info.

markh

Feb 23, 2007, 02:46 AM

:blush: I did read that Diplo victory was disabled but forgot it. However presumably the UN itself is still valid in terms of passing other resolutions? Something to bear in mind anyway.

Yes, but this does not convince me that we have to build it ourselves. To be honest I am fed up with votings for secretary for the time being.:D

markh

Feb 23, 2007, 03:52 AM

BTW do we have any volunteer for the first set ? :bump:

Sam_Yeager

Feb 23, 2007, 04:32 AM

Looks like we'll have to download the start save again according to this post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5133877&postcount=3).

Jenarie

Feb 23, 2007, 05:12 AM

I was just looking at the opening picture. I can't think of anything that would make me want to move to the south hill to start. Moving Ragnar away from the ocean would take something amazing there I'd think? All we can see there atm is the mountain which means at least one unworkable tile (is that mountain going to block the view if we move scout there?).

The north circle looks interesting with all the hills. All the resources we can see would be in either the north or middle cross but we'd pick up hills which would be nice for production. But sadly no way to scout that way with where the scout is placed so... *shrug*

I love dotmaps. This one isn't all that useful without more of the map showing but I made it so have one anyway... :)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/54188/SGOTM4_Start.JPG

It did make me realize that a possible benefit of settling north or south is that we'd have two cities there instead of one but again there is really no way to tell if that is a good thing or not.

markh

Feb 23, 2007, 05:22 AM

I think the first player will have to move the scout on the hill to the proposed site SW, save the game and post a screenshot to enable us to have a look what we have there. Normally the programme only offers sites if there are some goodies around.

Jenarie

Feb 23, 2007, 05:34 AM

I guess my question is that is there anything that is good enough to spend two turns moving plus lose the ocean? I can't think of anything that would make me settle there - every unknown square would have to have something on it to make it seem like a good move to me? And even if they do, maybe it would still be better to use those resources for city two?

Btw to all - I'm not trying to be argumentative. I know that everyone here is a better player then I am so if anything I'm just trying to pick your brain and understand. And maybe once in a while I'll get lucky and one of my what-if questions will actually help. :)

I'll be happy with whatever is decided I'm just curious why that site is under serious consideration when it seems like either of the other two would be better. I'd probably move the scout north west.

markh

Feb 23, 2007, 06:13 AM

Yes, you are absolutely right about the city placement. It would have to be much better than the site the settler is now to consider moving the settler and waste two turns. Nevertheless I would take a look and see what Gyathaar placed there.:)

markh

Feb 23, 2007, 08:24 AM

Well, Thrallia, your question about getting into a peaceful state with Gandhi via another route has just been answered by Gyathaar in the maintenance thread.:)

AlanH

Feb 23, 2007, 09:17 AM

Gyathaar has answered your question, I guess. If you can get peace with Gandhi then teach Gyathaar how to do it :)

Sam_Yeager

Feb 23, 2007, 09:59 AM

Pfftt! Since Gyathaar posted in the maintenance thread Thrallia's idea is known to everyone. Of course this may have been the intention.....

The matter may be moot anyway if this post's (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5134599&postcount=9) suggestion is accepted.

markh

Feb 23, 2007, 02:01 PM

Oh, master Thallia I am impressed. :bowdown: Have a look at the maintenance thread. :)

Still nobody has volunteered to take the first set. I will give everybody until tomorrow morning. Then I will set up a roster.

Thrallia

Feb 23, 2007, 02:06 PM

I'll volunteer :) I think I did a decent job last time.

I just saw the maint. thread, somewhat of a downer now that everyone knows about it, but hey...if we can still do it, it'd be nice.

There is a risk though, in the way they say we'd have to do it...we'd be risking Gandhi getting wiped out if he refused to capitulate to the other civ.

I think I'd personally right now prefer the safer method depending on what exactly we find out there in the great unknown :)

Sam_Yeager

Feb 23, 2007, 02:16 PM

I'll be happy with whatever is decided I'm just curious why that site is under serious consideration when it seems like either of the other two would be better. I'd probably move the scout north west.

As far as I'm concerned I wouldn't really say the site is under active consideration. However I still think it's worth seeing what's there before we decide where to settle.

We want to actively scout in any case. Since the tiles to the north will become visible if we settle in situ it makes more sense for the scout to go south instead.

Thrallia

Feb 23, 2007, 02:22 PM

As for the first turn moves...I'd suggest moving the scout S/W to the hill, so as to uncover more coast and then reach the blue circled hill.

I'd also move the settler 2N to the other blue circle. Losing 1 turn on epic isn't bad, and at the cost of 4 forests, we gain what looks like a possible 3 hills and 2 forests...along with the possibility of some other resource, without losing the pigs, corn, or clams(which will give us a powerhouse of an early wonder anyway).

Here's my midterm-longterm thoughts:

Early Game:
Explore land and sea diligently in order to find Gandhi and the other AI
Focus on science and build the Great Library(Pyramids too, if we get a chance)
Establish a number of cities we can simply allow Gandhi to steal once they reach size 2

Midgame:
Get to CS and Machinery early so that we can use our UU to take out the civs we don't want interfering with us or Gandhi(warmongers, science powerhouses that generally arent' good trade partners, irritating leaders-Izzy)
Increase our GPP production to lightbulb critical techs.
Get free GPs from techs
Get Liberalism

Lategame:
Research everything as fast as possible still
Make sure we've got a military capable of holding off a modern Gandhi war machine and remove any competition for Gandhi
Become SecGen to turn off Manhattan Project(wouldn't be good to get nuked every few turns by Gandhi instead of him building that spaceship)
Build Space Elevator and gift to Gandhi
Possibly build Internet and gift to Gandhi if he's hopelessly behind in techs.

Overall:
Those two early wonders, to me, are very important. As the Library can give us early GS's, and the Pyramids would greatly strengthen our specialist science, along with giving us GE points, something we definitely want to get to ensure we give Gandhi the Space Elevator...the earlier we get it, the easier it will be to ensure we get one.
Additionally, it seems to be that lightbulbing techs with GP will greatly increase our tech speed. It appears GS, GE, and GM are the most important for the techs we'd be interested in. Getting the free ones from techs should be a goal as well.
I agree with everyone else we don't need to bother building the UN, but we should assure ourselves of becoming the SecGen so that we can disable nukes if it looks like Gandhi is interested in building them
Also, we should probably get our Scotland Yard up and running ASAP to build spies and get a picture of what Gandhi is building in his big cities.

Sam_Yeager

Feb 23, 2007, 02:45 PM

I'd also move the settler 2N to the other blue circle. Losing 1 turn on epic isn't bad, and at the cost of 4 forests, we gain what looks like a possible 3 hills and 2 forests...along with the possibility of some other resource, without losing the pigs, corn, or clams(which will give us a powerhouse of an early wonder anyway).

It would be three turns if we go for our current spot. The more I look at our current spot the more I like it. It reminds me of 'Spain on a lake' for those who read RB1.

Early Game:
Explore land and sea diligently in order to find Gandhi and the other AI
Focus on science and build the Great Library(Pyramids too, if we get a chance)
Establish a number of cities we can simply allow Gandhi to steal once they reach size 2

I think we should be thinking of taking out, or at least weakening, any nearby aggressive civs.

Lategame:
Research everything as fast as possible still
Make sure we've got a military capable of holding off a modern Gandhi war machine and remove any competition for Gandhi
Become SecGen to turn off Manhattan Project(wouldn't be good to get nuked every few turns by Gandhi instead of him building that spaceship)
Build Space Elevator and gift to Gandhi
Possibly build Internet and gift to Gandhi if he's hopelessly behind in techs.

I don't think we can gift stuff to Ghandhi when we're at war. :crazyeye:

We need to remember that it will be very difficult to do all the things we would like to do. We have to to make sure that those things we can do, we do well.

Jenarie

Feb 23, 2007, 03:46 PM

In the maintenance thread discussion people seem worried that some other civ may vassal Gandhi but I sorta assumed we'd be a little more protective of him then that. Of course I suppose it could be hard to protect someone who is trying to kill you.

I think in my head I have us as strongest (military and tech) and then Gandhi right behind us in tech and hopefully top half in military so he doesn't seem like a good target to anyone and he doesn't feel weak enough to voluntarily vassal to one of his friends. I think an AI at war will automatically build troops so I'm thinking that keeping him strong shouldn't be a problem but I'm not sure about that.

Sam_Yeager

Feb 23, 2007, 04:17 PM

Htadus

Feb 23, 2007, 04:22 PM

I'm pretty certain they changed the resource arrows in Warlords so that they all point the same way in order to prevent this type of spoiler info.

I was basing my thought on the location of jungle. I ran bunch of fractal maps and found a good number had jungles near toward EQ of the map.

Sam_Yeager

Feb 23, 2007, 04:38 PM

I was basing my thought on the location of jungle. I ran bunch of fractal maps and found a good number had jungles near toward EQ of the map.

Ah, good point. :goodjob:

I see AlanH has clarified the rules wrt relations with Ghandhi.

Htadus

Feb 23, 2007, 04:48 PM

What's people's thoughts on starting build & tech?

I think start build should be warrior and probably worker after that.

Not sure about start tech. We start with Fishing so we could go straight to Sailing but probably not worth it for the first tech. Agriculture is useful to farm the corn if we settle in situ but I think we've got plenty of food anyway although we'll want Pottery soon. We could go direct to Animal Husbandry, Archery or Mining. I think I prefer going the boring Mining route but I'm sure other people will different ideas.

I have been experimenting with Celt WOTM3, and found out the power of BW to make a beliver out of me. Food is not a big issue on this setting. So AH is more valuble to locate horses. With all the food around we can hold off on Pot also.

I would prefer to settle where we are and use the forseted PH north for a chop and mine. 30/45 shields goes a long way in the early game. The 2 shields will be handy to build the Warrior or WB or what ever else. And the chops will be handy to get the settlers out fast.

I have been testing chopping for settlers and building worrior in between. Pretty cool. From what I read it is not an exploit.

BTW on that WOTM3, I was able to get MC from the Oracle, with Ragnar it should be even easier. So we should not ignore it. For all we know we can do even better w/Ragnar. Also I noted that AI like to get Long bows with Oracle. Nasty buisness.

Htadus

Feb 23, 2007, 05:05 PM

I need to leave the house, but when I get back, I am willing do a test map with the known setting to see what would optimize our science for the first 100 turns. Let me know if you would like to do some thing like this. Out for 7 hrs.

Htadus

Feb 23, 2007, 05:07 PM

Oh...forgot. It appear the south circle is at a choke point.

The-Hawk

Feb 23, 2007, 07:19 PM

Wow :eek: ... I check this thread last night, 24 hours later, three pages of postings! Outstanding!

Some random thoughts:

I'd also move the settler 2N to the other blue circle. Losing 1 turn on epic isn't bad

I agree that moving the settler might be a good idea... this will be a long game. Losing a few turns in the beginning will be a good investment if we find a better location. Said another way... 497 turns of an outstanding capital is better than 500 of a good capital.

I think we should move the scout on the proposed site SW to see what is there.

If that is jungle to the south of the SW hill, then it may be better to move the scout NW, W. Maybe there is a better chance to find something good to the west? Or, maybe move the scout to the SW proposed site and move the settler SW, NW?

I guess my question is that is there anything that is good enough to spend two turns moving plus lose the ocean? I can't think of anything that would make me settle there

I think I can ;). If moving south or west turned up a commerce tile (gold or gems) plus a food tile, I probably would move. Early commerce tiles are an outstanding way to get off to a fast tech start.

For me, it depends on our strategy overall, and therefore our strategy for the capital. It's pretty clear we will need to be a science powerhouse. In this event, I typically like my capital to be high commerce so I can utilize bureacracy. Ragnar's financial trait says "cottages", but the start location has lots of wasted tiles (ocean). I'd prefer the capital on a site with more opportunity to build cottages.

The initial start location looks like it could be an excellent GP factory. I would think it would be a great candidate for a second or third city.

Bottom line... it all depends on what the scout turns up. If there are no goodies under the FOW, then settling in place might be the best bet. However, I would even consider settling 1 west if there are grasslands to the west of the pork. The clams could be fished by a workboat from a later city.

I think I prefer going the boring Mining route but I'm sure other people will different ideas.

If the decision is to settle in place, I think bronzeworking is a priority... might as well get some whipping action going with all that food. With standard size fractal and 7 opponents, it might get crowded quickly... might want to whip a settler or two. Also, if there are some cranky neighbors nearby, some axes might come in handy. :mischief:

Thrallia

Feb 24, 2007, 02:10 AM

Sam, what would cause you to be against checking 2N? we don't lose anything of value except the forests, and we gain some minable hills for sure...possibly another resource and more forests.

Hills along with 3 food resources, and forested hills on top of that, will lead to some sort of outstanding capital short and long term

As for techs, I believe Mining>BW should be our first path as well, as with all that food we'll need some way of using up the excess pop growth.
However, I think a workboat first is best. We've already got fishing, so we might as well use it. Workboat first, then warrior, perhaps early worker if we've gotten AH or Agri already and to try that warrior/settler chop thing that Htadus mentioned...although I'm not sure if that works on Warlords...I've noticed that hammers gained from chopping seem to be added to the city's production, rather than immediately being used on whatever is being built.

Another thought is to hold on to all these forests to get Pyramids and/or Library or some other wonder we decide we need.

Htadus

Feb 24, 2007, 02:12 AM

I generated a few maps and edited one with the basic layout to look like what is shown on the map. It is attached in the bottom for anyone to look or use.

Ran 3 tests, each without pop rushing and revolting immidiately to Slavery. Techs: Mining, BW, Agri(should have been AH), Archery and started Masonry. I mined the forested plains hill for all tests.

1. Warrior, WB, worker and settler
Sum: Completed BW on turn 32, worker on 37 and settler on 52, and started Masonry on 52.
Turn 0 (4000 BC)
Nidaros founded
Nidaros begins: Warrior

Turn 1 (3970 BC)
Research begun: Mining

Turn 7 (3790 BC)
Nidaros's borders expand

Turn 10 (3700 BC)
Nidaros grows: 2
Nidaros finishes: Warrior

Turn 11 (3670 BC)
Nidaros begins: Work Boat
Tech learned: Mining

Turn 12 (3640 BC)
Research begun: Bronze Working

Turn 22 (3340 BC)
Nidaros grows: 3

Turn 25 (3250 BC)
Nidaros finishes: Work Boat

Turn 26 (3220 BC)
Nidaros begins: Worker
Hinduism founded in a distant land
Buddhism founded in a distant land

Turn 32 (3040 BC)
Tech learned: Bronze Working

Turn 33 (3010 BC)
Research begun: Agriculture

Turn 37 (2890 BC)
Nidaros finishes: Worker

Turn 38 (2860 BC)
Nidaros begins: Settler

Turn 43 (2710 BC)
Tech learned: Agriculture

Turn 44 (2680 BC)
Research begun: Archery

Turn 51 (2470 BC)
Tech learned: Archery

Turn 52 (2440 BC)
Research begun: Masonry
Nidaros finishes: Settler

Turn 53 (2410 BC)
Nidaros begins: Archer

2. WB, Warrior, worker and settler
Sum: Completed BW on turn 30, worker on 36 and settler on 50, and started Masonry on 51.

Turn 0 (4000 BC)
Nidaros founded
Nidaros begins: Work Boat
Research begun: Mining

Turn 7 (3790 BC)
Nidaros's borders expand

Turn 10 (3700 BC)
Nidaros grows: 2

Turn 11 (3670 BC)
Tech learned: Mining

Turn 12 (3640 BC)
Research begun: Bronze Working

Turn 18 (3460 BC)
Nidaros finishes: Work Boat

Turn 19 (3430 BC)
Nidaros begins: Warrior

Turn 23 (3310 BC)
Nidaros grows: 3
Nidaros finishes: Warrior

Turn 24 (3280 BC)
Nidaros begins: Worker

Turn 30 (3100 BC)
Tech learned: Bronze Working

Turn 31 (3070 BC)
Research begun: Agriculture

Turn 36 (2920 BC)
Nidaros finishes: Worker

Turn 37 (2890 BC)
Nidaros begins: Settler
Buddhism founded in a distant land

Turn 41 (2770 BC)
Tech learned: Agriculture

Turn 42 (2740 BC)
Research begun: Archery

Turn 50 (2500 BC)
Tech learned: Archery
Nidaros finishes: Settler

Turn 51 (2470 BC)
Research begun: Masonry
Nidaros begins: Archer

3. WB working the GF, Warrior, worker and settler
Sum: Completed BW on turn 29, worker on 36 and settler on 50, and started Masonry on 50.

Turn 0 (4000 BC)
Nidaros founded
Nidaros begins: Work Boat
Research begun: Mining

Turn 7 (3790 BC)
Nidaros's borders expand

Turn 11 (3670 BC)
Tech learned: Mining

Turn 12 (3640 BC)
Research begun: Bronze Working

Turn 14 (3580 BC)
Nidaros finishes: Work Boat

Turn 15 (3550 BC)
Nidaros begins: Warrior
Nidaros grows: 2

Turn 22 (3340 BC)
Nidaros grows: 3

Turn 23 (3310 BC)
Nidaros finishes: Warrior

Turn 24 (3280 BC)
Nidaros begins: Worker

Turn 29 (3130 BC)
Tech learned: Bronze Working

Turn 30 (3100 BC)
Research begun: Agriculture

Turn 36 (2920 BC)
Nidaros finishes: Worker

Turn 37 (2890 BC)
Nidaros begins: Settler

Turn 41 (2770 BC)
Tech learned: Agriculture

Turn 42 (2740 BC)
Research begun: Archery

Turn 49 (2530 BC)
Tech learned: Archery

Turn 50 (2500 BC)
Research begun: Masonry
Nidaros finishes: Settler

Htadus

Feb 24, 2007, 02:39 AM

I too prefer the current spot for one thing. It will be an excellent GP farm. Even the lake will give us 3 each commerce and food with a lighthouse. If we learn AH instead of Agriculture, the pigs will give 6 food and that will speed up the growth faster and show if the horses are around.

Htadus

Feb 24, 2007, 03:05 AM

There is a discussion on vassel states on the maintanance thread. Since I could not figur out how to make a link to the threads here goes cut and paste.:)

On post #6 Gyathaar states
UPDATE:

Since it appears there may be a bug that makes this possible, we have decided that you are no longer permitted to make peace with Gandhi, and if peace does break out then you must immediately declare war on him, either directly or via a vassalage.

On post#33 AlanH states
Let's cut this debate, as I believe it will distract from the true goals of this game.

I think we all know that the objective in this game is to get Gandhi to the stars while we remain at war throughout the game. Gyathaar's initial response was based on his belief that you would not find a way to make peace with Gandhi. However, as usual, the SGOTM community has come up with options that may thwart our intentions.

We shall operate to the following amendments to the game rules:

"You are allowed no peace treaties with India" will change to "You are allowed no peace treaties with India, and you must immediately declare war on Gandhi or his master if you ever find that you are at peace with him, either directly or via a vassal relationship."

The winning condition will be amended from "Awards will be given to teams who achieve Space defeats to India in the least turns" to "Awards will go to the teams that achieve the fastest spaceship defeat to a launch by Gandhi."

Please confirm that the above changes resolve the debate, or suggest any remaining issues.

In other words lets make sure that Gandhi will not become or have vassel states since this will require us to be in wars with more than one civ. Which inturn leads to slow science. We will really need to evaluate how close we want to be to Gandhi as the game progress.

Sam_Yeager

Feb 24, 2007, 03:15 AM

Sam, what would cause you to be against checking 2N? we don't lose anything of value except the forests, and we gain some minable hills for sure...possibly another resource and more forests.

Hills along with 3 food resources, and forested hills on top of that, will lead to some sort of outstanding capital short and long term

It seems to me that I can see the outline of additional hills beyond those I can see. Our current site, shown below, gives us nice mixture of food, early commerce, hammers and forests. We start with 2 hammers, the corn is right next to us, we have the lake with two food and two commerce (2f2c) as well as the clams.

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k182/mrprab/SGOTM04/In-Situ_4000AD.jpg

Blue lines show our initial city area with the red lines showing our big fat cross (BFC). Whilst the additional hills help production they don't do much for growth. Moving to the north blue circle & settling will cost two turns. If we move back then that's three turns before we can settle and start research. I know we did that in the last SGOTM but that was due to lack of :hammers: for our capital. We don't have that problem this time.

markh

Feb 24, 2007, 08:04 AM

Ok, I propose the following roster :

Thrallia
Htadus
harbourboy
Sam
jenarie
markh

Sam_Yeager

Feb 24, 2007, 08:57 AM

Ok, I propose the following roster :

Thrallia
Htadus
harbourboy
Sam
jenarie
markh

Will Harbourboy be back for his initial turn? IIRC he was due to be back 4 March (?).

OTOH given that we like discussion :) a day or so is not that big a deal.

Thrallia

Feb 24, 2007, 12:17 PM

at this rate, I'm not sure that it will be a problem with him 3rd :p especially since we'll likely have a ton of discussion going on anyway.

From Htadus' tests, it appears workboat first is best, and that getting the workboat finished ASAP is even better.

For the first turn exploring, I'll follow the team vote, but I still think that with the possibility of getting an even better capital at the greatest risk of settling on turn 3 rather than turn 1(only actually costing us 2 turns) is worht taking. Considering it is a Gyathaar map, I almost expect the lushness of the current spot to be a trap to keep us from moving from a good spot to a great spot 1 turn away.

Thrallia

Feb 24, 2007, 12:48 PM

I've moved the scout and took screenshots...there's gems and silk down there, both in reach of a coastal city placed 1W of the scout.

That leads me to believe that'd be a good city site, so I definitely believe moving the capital to the northern hill would open up that site as a good second city.

I've saved the game again, but since it is still 4000BC, I can't reupload it...the screenshot are all we'll have to go on as a group.

Htadus

Feb 24, 2007, 01:55 PM

Okay. Not bad for Gyathaar build so far. But I am not too fond of building a tile away from accessing coast regardless of what the blue circle says. I prefer to move inland for more cottages.

The current position will give us raw production of [4+4+3+2(cap)] 13 shields without the use of forest.

North spot will give us raw production of [4+4+4+3+3+2(cap)] 20 shilds again without the use of forest. Yes I am assuming those two hidden tiles are hills and one is G and other is P. So from a production stand North would be an excellent location but GP farm is more important than a production city in the early-mid game.

But I have nothing against loosing 2 turns for better intel.

Thrallia

Feb 24, 2007, 02:17 PM

I agree the current spot would be better for a GP farm, but I'm not sure we'd want our capital to be a GP farm...moving 2N would give us great production, fairly good commerce, and thus a great candidate for Bureaucracy.(note that the other proposed site would also be a plains hill, giving us 2 hammers automatically still)

As for the southern city, I meant settling on the coast just above the gems...it'd give us another coastal city along with silk and gems, two luxury and commercial resources that could give us a good commerce city.

Sam_Yeager

Feb 24, 2007, 02:42 PM

That leads me to believe that'd be a good city site, so I definitely believe moving the capital to the northern hill would open up that site as a good second city.

:hmm: I'm not totally convinced but I agree it's probably worth moving the settler 2N to see what's there. Please post another screen shot so we can see what's actually there.

markh

Feb 24, 2007, 03:29 PM

I also agree to move the settler to see what is north.

Thrallia

Feb 24, 2007, 03:45 PM

will do...moving settler, saving and uploading the save again :)

Thrallia

Feb 24, 2007, 06:14 PM

Htadus

Feb 24, 2007, 06:33 PM

hm...well, after being the largest proponent of looking north, I'm not sure if I like the new position or not...so I'll leave it to everyone else to decide lol

I uploaded the new save, unfortunately, I wasn't able to take a screenshot before I had to close out and leave to run some errands.

Well it was a risk we had to take, We will catch up. You know that old saying; improvise, adapt and overcome. I vote to settle on the current spot and after building the WB, War and worker, we should pop rush the settler with 1 citizen (I guess that is all we are able to rush with :rolleyes: ). Lets hope we can find copper nearby and skip archery.

Science for me is Mining, BW, AH, and Masonry.

BTW, we will have more 3 commerce costal tiles at the new spot and more cottage areas.:D

My son is threatening with sudden power loss:lol: . So I gotto go. 3.5 year olds.:cry: :mischief: :crazyeye: :confused:

Jenarie

Feb 24, 2007, 06:37 PM

Here's the new screenshot in case there is someone not able to load the game atm.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/54188/Turn2.JPG

If we'd had this info on turn 1 I'd probably have voted for settle in place but as it is now it seems like we could settle in north site and then have the south site as a good second (or third etc depending what else we find) city to come. North is good it just isn't as good as it looked before we could see it. :)

Sam_Yeager

Feb 24, 2007, 07:30 PM

hm...well, after being the largest proponent of looking north, I'm not sure if I like the new position or not...so I'll leave it to everyone else to decide lol

An interesting exercise in the perils of looking a gift horse in the mouth. :cry:

I'm torn being saying we might as well settle since we're here and saying let's go back to the original spot. :confused: The key thing for me is the large amount of trees we can chop in the original location.

On balance I suppose I have to very reluctantly say settle since we're here. I suspect mark is tucked up in bed, which is where I'm also heading shortly as it's nearly 01:30, so you probably won't get his view for another seven or eight hours.

Jenarie

Feb 24, 2007, 07:37 PM

I think the main thing I like about settling north (where we are) is that we have a good second city site. If we settle back at start we'd have to move further south to get the gems in another city and it looks like we may be headed into jungle that way.

markh

Feb 25, 2007, 04:35 AM

I would settle north where the settler is now. It will be a great production site and we will have a good second city in the south without overlapping, so my vote would be for settling the northern site.

Thrallia

Feb 25, 2007, 12:47 PM

alright, since no one is absolutely opposed to the idea, I'll go ahead and settle in place. We do lose some forests there, but it adds a great southern city site along the coast that can pick up 3 of the 4 forests we lost.

I'll also go Mining>BW and workboat first. I'm gonna play out a little on the test save Htadus put down to decide the optimal way to get to BW and growth in our city fastest

Thrallia

Feb 25, 2007, 03:07 PM

Thrallia

Feb 25, 2007, 03:23 PM

lol third post...

I did one other test, doing 6 turns of all hammers, then using a forest for growth when building the WB. Doing this, I got the worker and settler by turn 56, Mining>BW>AH done and Masonry with 4 turns left at turn 56. Also have pigs pastured and 2 hills mined.

In my last test, I prioritized food and got a WB late, but by turn 58, we had Mining>BW>AH done, Masonry with 3 turns left, settler, worker, Nidaros was size 3 instead of being whipped, and we had 1 mine, pigs pastured, and a second mine with 3 turns left.

In this position, with an early worker, we can have a huge, powerhouse capital quickly..there's at least 4 hills to mine, 2 base hammers, and 3 food resources, of which fish is actually the weakest...Pigs give 6 food, carn gives 6 food, and fish gives 4 at first, 5 after we get the trading Post, which we'll be wanting to be sure to build in our coastal cities...gives +1 food AND +1 movement to naval units.

So, now to the actual save :) I'll post my report after I upload it.

Jenarie

Feb 25, 2007, 03:25 PM

Htadus

Feb 25, 2007, 03:45 PM

lol third post...

In this position, with an early worker, we can have a huge, powerhouse capital quickly..there's at least 4 hills to mine, 2 base hammers, and 3 food resources, of which fish is actually the weakest...Pigs give 6 food, carn gives 6 food, and fish gives 4 at first, 5 after we get the trading Post, which we'll be wanting to be sure to build in our coastal cities...gives +1 food AND +1 movement to naval units.

So, now to the actual save :) I'll post my report after I upload it.

The fish will give us 5 food +3gold. And on the test I also had archary completed and at turn 57 would have about 3 turns left on Masonry. I hope you get to see this post before playing.

Please post a map when we have discoverd more.

Htadus

Feb 25, 2007, 03:50 PM

Jenarie

Feb 25, 2007, 03:52 PM

Oh happy troops! I get it now, thank you! I knew there was a reason I just wasn't seeing it. :)

Sam_Yeager

Feb 25, 2007, 03:57 PM

I'm curious why we are building so many warriors? I play at a lower level but I almost never build ANY warriors in my personal games and I've never had an AI attack me before I had time to build barracks and then archers. In this case we start at war which would make a difference but wondering if maybe one of the warriors could be a scout?

Since Thrallia's built a settler the second warrior is presumably to escort the settler. As for the first warrior that's to guard Nidaros.

Once whilst starting an always war game I actually had my warrior out scouting and an enemy warrior strolled in and razed my capital before my warrior could get back in time. :blush: A very swift game.

Ok, probably unlikely to happen to us but mortifying if it did.

EDIT: Cross post with Htadus.

Jenarie

Feb 25, 2007, 03:59 PM

Aye I knew what warrior one and two were up to but in one post he mentioned a third warrior and I wasn't sure why more warriors then settlers although the third could have been for the next settler built. And I guess with always war we'd have to play a lot more defensive then I'm used to because having our game over before it really starts would be... bad. :)

Hmm reading it again I think that third warrior was actually the second warrior finishing.

Build was WB>Warrior>Warrior(half built>Worker>Settler>Warrior(finished with overflow)

Thrallia

Feb 25, 2007, 04:35 PM

Turn 0(4000BC): Explore southern city site, explore northern city site
IBT: Nothing
Turn 1(3970BC): Found Nidaros at northern site. Nidaros: Workboat. Science set to Mining
IBT:
Turn 2(3940BC): Nothing
IBT: Nothing
Turn 3(3910BC): Nothing
IBT: Nothing
Turn 4(3880BC): Exploring SE reveals a TON of jungle to the south of us...eventually it will yield some great cottage spam
IBT: Nothing
Turn 5(3850BC): Find a river with sugar along it.
IBT: Nothing
Turn 6(3820BC): Found the E coast. Gems along the coast, clams and fish available within that fat cross as well.
IBT: Nothing
Turn 7(): Gandhi found across the channel. He's got some good looking resources there
IBT: Nothing
Turn 8(): Hut popped for 25 gold
IBT: Nothing
Turn 9(): Lots of hills on our continent
IBT: Nothing
Turn 10(): Exploring...
IBT: Nothing
Turn 11(): Scout is attacked by a wolf
IBT: Nothing
Turn 12(): I find 3 desert hills with gold in them!
IBT:
Turn 13(): Mining>BW
IBT: Nothing
Turn 14(): Nidaros WB>Warrior
IBT: Nothing
Turn 15(): Nothing
IBT: Nothing
Turn 16(): Scout fortifies against a panther
IBT: Khan finds us with his scout
Turn 17(): Scout defeats panther, gets Woodsman Promotion
IBT: Nothing
Turn 18(): Discover another good production/food site. Corn/Sheep, coast, and 5 hills
IBT: Nothing
Turn 19(): Scout defeats Lion
IBT: Nothing
Turn 20(): Nidaros grows to size 2
IBT: Nothing
Turn 21(): Northern exploration finished. Khan must be to the south of us
IBT: Nothing
Turn 22(): Moving south
IBT: Nothing
Turn 23(): Scout killed by a lion :(
IBT:
Turn 24(): Nothing
IBT: Nothing
Turn 25(): Nidaros Warrior>Warrior
IBT: Nothing
Turn 26(): Nidaros grows to size 3
IBT: Nothing
Turn 27(): Nidaros changes to Worker
IBT: Nothing
Turn 28(): Nothing
IBT: Nothing
Turn 29(): Nothing
IBT: Nothing
Turn 30(): BW>AH. Revolt to slavery. We'll need it quickly, and the earlier we revolt, the less it costs us
IBT: Nothing
Turn 31(): Copper discovered 1NW of Nidaros ;) I was expecting either copper or horses within our new city limits
IBT: Nothing
Turn 32(): Nothing
IBT: Nothing
Turn 33(): Nothing
IBT: Nothing
Turn 34(): Hinduism founded in a distant land
IBT: Nothing
Turn 35(): Nothing
IBT: Nothing
Turn 36(): Forest grows in our former starting site :)
IBT: Nothing
Turn 37(): Nothing
IBT: Nothing
Turn 38(): Khan revolts to Slavery
IBT: Nothing
Turn 39(): Nothing
IBT: Nothing
Turn 40(): Nidaros Worker>Settler

Summary: We lost our explorer, but he had explored most of our Eastern land and all of our Nothern land. I found a number of good city sites, Gandhi, and met Khan. Khan is located to the south.

We've got copper being mined right now, it will be finished in 5 or 6 turns.AH is being worked on and a settler should be built next. Unfortunately, I forgot to change the build from warrior to settler.

Thrallia

Feb 25, 2007, 04:40 PM

I decided that because we were likely to have copper in our starting radius, I wanted to get the WB done quickly so I could get 4 food/3 commerce from the fish ASAP to get copper displayed. Thus, I prioritized hammers until the WB was finished, then prioritized food until we were size 3 so that we could get BW finished and a worker finished to start work on the copper.

It won't automatically be connected when it is done, so we'll be able to continue building warriors until we want to connect it. I think another scout should be slipped in after the settler so we can continue scouting to the south of our starting position.

I'll post screenshots in a bit, my wife is hurrying me to finish though to take care of her computer...it needs a new antivirus software before I'll let her get online on it.

Sam_Yeager

Feb 25, 2007, 04:43 PM

Don't forget to upload the save as well. :)

EDIT: I see it now.

Thrallia

Feb 25, 2007, 04:44 PM

just uploaded it :p

DynamicSpirit

Feb 25, 2007, 04:49 PM

Hi guys, just dropping in to say 'hi' and 'good luck'!

I'm still lurking around to see how you get on in SGOTM04 :) I'll follow your progress with interest...

Sam_Yeager

Feb 25, 2007, 04:50 PM

Hi guys, just dropping in to say 'hi' and 'good luck'!

I'm still lurking around to see how you get on in SGOTM04 :) I'll follow your progress with interest...

Thanks for the good wishes. :D

Sam_Yeager

Feb 25, 2007, 04:52 PM

Looking at the save I see Thrallia was right to doubt Gyathaar's placement of the settler. We would have needed to settle another city to claim that copper otherwise.

Sam_Yeager

Feb 25, 2007, 05:07 PM

Thrallia

Feb 25, 2007, 05:10 PM

yeah...I was doubting myself until I saw Htadus' test save...it had a blue circle 1E from where we were deciding to settle...there was no difference in the terrain, so it had to be a hidden resource moving it. Sure enough, in the test saves there was copper 1 tile out of our borders, and in the borders of the blue circle in the test. After that I decided we had to have copper or horses in our new capital thanks to the move.

I was hoping it was copper, of course, cause it's placement gives us a 2f3h tile! A huge boon for settler/worker production, and for great production while not losing food.

Htadus

Feb 25, 2007, 05:26 PM

With Khan down south it's an interesting question where we should settle our second city.

Gems city to the south of us would be nice and near. However there's a fair amount of jungle to clear. Subject to seeing where the horses are I would be inclined to go for Gold city instead. It's not that much further away. There's less jungle to clear. The gold will do just as well in keeping the citizens happy. Lastly it will allow us to block off the northern half of our land from Kublai's settlers. We'll have to research Mysticism but we probably needed to do that fairly soon anyway.

Btw it's interesting to note Gyathaar's impassable peaks in the north. :)

I too agree the gold site is preferable. However, I would like to place it on the river delta (5W &1N)west of us and next to the fish. It will give us 5 food (for real:p ) 3 commerce and can handle food needed for the city to work 2 of the 3 gold. Also we will be able to irrigate the 3 plains.

Alternatively I would prefer the non gold plains hill next to 3 gold (4W and 2S). This would get to share the pigs with capital to grow but will have corn also. This could be better.

BTW Thrallia good call on moving north.

Htadus

Feb 25, 2007, 05:33 PM

I see I am next. Is it 30 or 20 turns that I get the pleasure of going on this adventure :D ?

Got it.

I will post thoughts soon. I see we can change the build to a Settler, So I will. Love seeing them copper.:woohoo:

Sam_Yeager

Feb 25, 2007, 05:42 PM

I too agree the gold site is preferable. However, I would like to place it on the river delta (5W &1N)west of us and next to the fish. It will give us 5 food (for real:p ) 3 commerce and can handle food needed for the city to work 2 of the 3 gold. Also we will be able to irrigate the 3 plains.

Your first choice is definitely the better of your two suggestions. I can see the merit of Thrallia's suggested site, not least the fact that no expansion is needed to claim the gold. I think I do prefer your site. I'll have to have a play with a dotmap tomorrow so that we don't inadvertently block out good sites.

Sam_Yeager

Feb 25, 2007, 05:50 PM

I see I am next. Is it 30 or 20 turns that I get the pleasure of going on this adventure :D ?

I found this in the SGOTM03 thread:

Usually the first player plays about 30 to 40 turns if the techpath is agreed on and not much is happening during these turns anyway. Then the following players play 20 and once everybody played a set we go with 10 turns per set.

Time for sleep now. I'll look at your thoughts tomorrow.

Htadus

Feb 25, 2007, 05:51 PM

I think this site is capitol worthy and will be easy to defend with a few archers placed on the pigs.

Harbourboy

Feb 25, 2007, 07:06 PM

Fantastic efforts so far, guys.

Yes, I am on still on holiday, but I have taken a break from the rustic isolation of the beach and found a place to get online and connect with the world again.

I don't have a lot of useful comments to make as it is quite difficult to analyse the position from the forum posts alone.

I guess would ask a general question about our overall early game strategy with regard to Khan - in terms of if and when we engage in war with him. I assume that with constant war with Ghandi, we will always have to have enough military protection to defend ourselves against him. Thus we will always have to cover our back, although he doesn't tend to be the most aggressive guy around.

So, do we intend any sort of rush at Khan?

Also, while I am here, can someone explain how we do the diary of turns that we do? Is it automated in any way, or do you have to type it up manually as you go along? What does IBT stand for?

Jenarie

Feb 25, 2007, 07:19 PM

Would it be worth it to insert roads before AH finishes to hook up the copper?

When looking at the save I picked the same spot Htadus did (next to fish) as second city site.

I think we need to get a warrior or scout south soon to find out how much room is between us and Khan. I'd still be interested in south city site as possible third city but it depends where he is.

Harbourboy

Feb 25, 2007, 07:28 PM

Do we really need another scout? I don't think I have ever built a scout in any of my games. Surely there must be more important things to build at this point. Maybe I have been underestimating the value of scouts.

Jenarie

Feb 25, 2007, 07:35 PM

I don't usually build any either but ours died and we have a lot of black area out there still. Since it is mostly jungle though it is probably better to send a warrior out then a scout but I think we lose the ability to make warriors when we hook up the copper? Here's the map so far since you can't download game:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/54188/turn41.JPG
(Signs are from Thrallia)

Harbourboy

Feb 25, 2007, 07:44 PM

Htadus

Feb 25, 2007, 08:29 PM

Thanks for that. I wonder how Htadus is getting on. I see that only four teams have submitted a save at all so far. We're well under way, I think, and we do have the most posts (there should be an award just for that).

I'm not sure what some of the notes on that map are trying to say, but I am inclined towards settling south. I like the look of getting hold of that gold at some point soon, given that we can't see Iron or Horses yet.

I will not play tonight since I will be settling 2nd city. We will discuss the merits of the site and then proceed from that point on.

I have changed my mind to the alternative location I identified earlier since it is the better spot in my mind. It has better defense, will have pre improve site to work (the pig from the cap) and we can have 27 commerce per turn with just 5 citizens. Can you imagine the research speed on this site.

Thrallia

Feb 26, 2007, 01:30 AM

The reason I chose my spot was for a lack of overlap and the fact it had a food resource and could reach all 3 golds...however, I learned in the last SGOTM not to be against a site simply because of overlap. I'm somewhat against founding a city simply to use the pigs, since I think we planned on using those pigs to allow a super production capitol. That's why I chose a site that fit all 3 gold and could reach fish. Founding on the river would be good as well.

Jenarie: we have not researched the wheel yet, so we can't build roads yet...that also means that once the copper is mined, we'll gain the bonus hammers, but won't gain access to copper yet. That means we can continue to build warriors until whenever we wish to build a road.

Harbourboy: I proposed a scout soon after because early exploration is very important for determining where we can settle, where we want to 'create' or borders at for awhile, and to find our opposition. Since our scout died, we need another unit to do so. We could use a warrior, since human barbs will likely show up soon.

As far as our relations with Khan...he's definitely going to be destroyed sooner or later, as we want all warmongers kept unable to bring any harm to Gandhi. It is somewhat mean of Gyathaar to give us such a great area in terms of production AND commerce when we want to lose the game :(

Finally, I think after we reach AH, Masonry, and possibly Agriculture, we should rush Writing>Alpha>Mathematics and trade everything away to anyone we know. Alphabet first. The tech pace needs to be furious, and since we don't know WHO will be a good trade partner with Gandhi, we need to trade any non-military techs everywhere as fast as we get them. Alphabet is important because it is the #1 most limiting factor in early AI tech advancement. The faster we get it and trade/gift it away, the faster the overall tech pace will increase and the sooner it will do so.

I say Mathematics early as well because without marble or stone we need some heavy chopping to get the Pyramids and Library...if we prechop the forests between tile improvements in our cities, then we should get Math in time to gain +50% on all chops and build the Pyramids before anyone else does.

Jenarie

Feb 26, 2007, 01:35 AM

Jenarie: we have not researched the wheel yet, so we can't build roads yet...that also means that once the copper is mined, we'll gain the bonus hammers, but won't gain access to copper yet. That means we can continue to build warriors until whenever we wish to build a road.

Is why I asked: "Would it be worth it to insert roads before AH finishes to hook up the copper?" I meant wheel when I said road... can't you mind read? ;)

I usually prefer scouts to scout but if sending it into the jungle a warrior = scout as far as movement and has extra survivability. We have one already so if we hook up the copper we could replace the warrior on city garrison with an axeman and send the warrior south.

markh

Feb 26, 2007, 02:26 AM

I have no access to the save now as I am at work, so I will have a look tonight to state my opinion on the second city site.

Our decision to move the settler and not settle in place paid off. Great. :goodjob:

I think I like to have Khan gone sooner than later, so I think we should plan our first war while he is still in expansion mode. Khan's UU is Keshik ? Should have an eye whether he has horses around.

@ harbourboy : we type the notes manually. I always have the editor running in the background and just alt+tab from the game to the editor to type my notes for each turn. Afterwards I just simply copy and paste my notes from the editor into the post here. As already mentioned we just play a few turns, so it is not much work.

IBT stands for the interturn when the AIs make their moves.

One more thing for our "newbies" : make sure that your autosave is set to autosave each turn (I do not remember which value it has in the .ini file), so if the game crashes you can load the autosave from the current turn. You then have to replay your moves as before, so even if you lost a city or units you should play it as before. I think there is a guide in the rules which file has to be edited and how for the autosave.

Htadus

Feb 26, 2007, 04:25 AM

Htadus

Feb 26, 2007, 04:47 AM

I think we need a third city as soon as possible too. Even with the jungle, I prefer settling the coastal city to south, next to Gems. It will help us during our campaign to get Kahn out or maginalize him.

Tech wise I vote for Ag, Wheel and Pot before writing. We need to farm, connect copper and gold sooner than later and need to use the food to its max.

Just as much as the wheel we need galleys and Tireames for the narrow divide. Even Gandhi is going to want to claim some fishing nets. So we need to interject it here some where.

How well do we think we are going to be able to trade techs early?

I want to officially say not going to build the oracle is a mistake. :sad: (in the second city to get CoL or MC) But I guess we have to plan for the Pyramids. Oh by the way do you guys ever go for WWonders to get cash for 100 percent science in mid game?

Sam_Yeager

Feb 26, 2007, 05:46 AM

The reason for sharing that one crucial tile is to accelerate the growth of the goldsite city fast. 3 times fast for the first growth and 2 times fast for the second growth while using one gold mine. That is approximately double the science gold. This city has a capability of nearly 70 raw gold when developed with about 20 shields without the use of Pigs. I did not account the effects of Bio and railroads. Also overlap wont hurt this game since we can never really maintain very large population in this game even with police state due to constant war.

Last argument for the site 4W and 2S: After we get to population of 5 (current happiness limit) and one border expansion, we can work 3 gold tiles, corn and another tile of choice until we can get irrigation to some of the grass lands. Capital wont hurt either with corn (6f), clam(5f) and Lake (3f + 3g) with LH.

Summary.
Pro:

Faster growth to use gold fast.
Can use all 3 gold with 5 pop (or 4 pop and halt growth)
4 tile move from Cap for better offense. Yes I meant offense :D as in best defense. Have couple axes between cap and gold site as a rapid reaction force.
4 tile move to sugested south city site and same defense plan.
Not a coastal city for long run commerce city.

Con:

Share an important tile.

Perhaps I'm missing something but your new preferred second city site (4W, 2S) does not have access to the pigs until it expands so how do the pigs make it grow faster? Are you sure you don't mean 3W, 2S? Btw we need Mysticism so that we can build an obelisk to get the cultural expansion.

I am not a coastal city fan unless there are couple of resources on coastal tiles since we are very limited with what we can do. Even for a financial cive cost will only give no more than 4 gpt (w/Colosus) while a town give five or six.

Couple of reasons why we may want coastal slightly more in this game. Ragnar's UB is useless without coastal cites. We want to find out whether Ghandhi is sharing his land with any other civs and who are those civs. The only way to do that is send a WB or other naval vessel round there to see. For that we need a coastal city on the other side of our land from the capital.

I agree it doesn't have to be the second city but it should be soon. The gem city may take a while to settle and will cost a fair amount in maintenance.

Sam_Yeager

Feb 26, 2007, 05:58 AM

Tech wise I vote for Ag, Wheel and Pot before writing. We need to farm, connect copper and gold sooner than later and need to use the food to its max.

I don't think Agriculture is as important as the other two. We need Mysticism for cultural expansion in new cities as well. So my preferred initial tech path would be Wheel, Mysticism and Pottery.

How well do we think we are going to be able to trade techs early?

Tech trading could be interesting. IIRC the AI won't trade unless it knows at least two civs. Alphabet needs to be known by at least one civ. Ghandhi won't trade with us anyway. Neither Ghandhi or Kublai know each other yet. It's another reason why we want to know if Ghandhi is sharing his land with anyone else.

I want to officially say not going to build the oracle is a mistake. :sad: (in the second city to get CoL or MC) But I guess we have to plan for the Pyramids. Oh by the way do you guys ever go for WWonders to get cash for 100 percent science in mid game?

I'm not sure exactly where this was said. :confused: However if we wanted to go down that route we would need Mysticism -> Meditation -> Priesthood and with the exception of the first that's not on either of our tech paths.

markh

Feb 26, 2007, 12:51 PM

My attempt of a dotmap. The yellow city is a bit too far ahead I think.

I am not too sure about the oracle. Pyramids would be nice for sure, but I think most important now is to get two more cities planted.

Next tech should be The Wheel to get the copper connected. Had some bad experience lately building too few military and barbs swarmed all over me and I lost a lot improvements and even one newly built city. I think we will have quite some as there seems nobody in the North and Kahn also seems to be a bit away.

No, I do not build wonders for cash usually. I always need those hammers. :)

Sam_Yeager

Feb 26, 2007, 01:16 PM

My attempt of a dotmap. The yellow city is a bit too far ahead I think.

Pleased to see this mark. :goodjob: My own attempts didn't go too well. I find it disappointing that both the western cities are non coastal. Yellow city is presumably meant to be fourth. In that case I really think that blue city should either be in Thrallia's spot or else in Htadus's first spot.

The reason why I would like an early coastal city is so that we can scout Ghandhi's lands and equally important find if there are any other civs. If there aren't then we will not have any early trading partners. :(

Thrallia

Feb 26, 2007, 01:46 PM

for some reason I didn't realize that there was corn so close to the gold...in that case I'd be fine with building the gold city where mark and Htadus placed it. It would only use the pigs to grow at first, then it could switch over to the corn, since corn provides just as much food as pigs do it won't hurt that city and the capital will be able to take it over again.

Sam, the pigs are already under capitol culture, thus would be immediately accessible to a new city.

Finally, the only city in that dotmap I would move is the corn city. I do assume it to be the 4th city, but I would move it to the grasslands coast where I have placed that sign. There it gains 2 gems, a few hills, and 2 sea-based food resources. It therefore could build or poprush a number of triremes and galleys to be used in containing and harrassing Gandhi.

As far as what we would be able to trade to people...As long as there are enough civs that know each other to even desire to trade...I'm certain we could trade the Alphabet for pretty much every single ancient tech, and perhaps even IW.

Jenarie

Feb 26, 2007, 01:57 PM

Using Mark's city sites I tried to map out what the rest might look like. It fits although some of it is awkward.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/54188/dot2.JPG

Orange would almost have to go there if we want the fish unless we move light blue and orange both one to the west. Going to play with it some more but that's what I have based on Htadus & Mark proposed sites.

Thrallia

Feb 26, 2007, 02:02 PM

More thoughts on tech:
I think our tech path should be Masonry, Wheel, Mysticism, either Writing or Sailing.

I see no current reason to get Pottery. We don't need it to unlock MC since we aren't going toward the Oracle, and since we've got so many hills/food resoruces available right now, we don't need it for cottages anytime soon. I think it is perfectly viable waiting to get Pottery until we can trade for it. A Granary would be nice, but with our desire to explore, expand, and get Pyramids, I can't see any time in the next 50 turns or so to throw in granaries.

side note: From the culture graphs of the 8 teams who have submitted saves, it appears us and Smurks are the only ones who did not settle on turn 1.

Another side note: how do you make dot maps? they'd be very handy for me to make :) I'd like to make my own with my proposed city sites.

Jenarie

Feb 26, 2007, 02:04 PM

I'd like to get wheel first. We need to hook up that copper and we'll want to hook up gold/gems when we can as well although gems aren't an issue as we won't have them until after we learn Iron Working.

To make dot maps: Scroll around the map until you have what you need showing. Then if you hit CTR ALT F you get "flying camera mode" which means you can have the cultural boundaries and the resources or basically anything you want showing at the same time. I hit Print Screen (so I don't get that naming square) and then paste it into paint. You can use any editing software but paint is easy - just use the line drawing utility to get your lines. :)

I was going to do yours next cause some of them intrigue me but if you are doing yours I'll skip that one. :)

Thrallia

Feb 26, 2007, 02:08 PM

sounds fair, we can't use masonry immediately anyway, so Wheel, Mysticism, Masonry, Writing

We do want Masonry in there so that we can start working on the Pyramids in our capital as soon as possible. Putting Mysticism and Wheel before it should allow us to get the pigs and copper ready, along with a number of hills mines...that shoudl give us at least 20 hammers per turn in the capital, giving us a great production speed on it. We've also got plenty of chopable forests if we want to use them.

Jenarie

Feb 26, 2007, 02:40 PM

Newbie question: I'm not at all against it but I'm curious why we want pyramids? I usually only want them if I'm spiritual since then being able to change around whenever I want is nice. I'm weak on picking the right civics for max benefit so I'm wondering what pyramids would do for us. Everyone seems to asume we want them and I'm sure you are right but I feel stupid for not knowing WHY. :)

markh

Feb 26, 2007, 02:52 PM

The governmental civics are quite powerful. Take representation that early and you get more science and happiness or police state to work against the war weariness in this scenario. These civics come quite late in the game and we would have agreat advantage using these civics this soon.

Thrallia

Feb 26, 2007, 03:16 PM

Representation and Police State are very helpful in this type of game.
We've got major food sources, allowing us to have lots of specialists, so representation will allow us larger cities with more science.

Later on, if/when war weariness becomes a major issue, we can switch to Police State.

I'm not entirely sure WW has any effect when locked into permanent war...but we'll surely have some later on when warring with other civs(gandhi's vassals or our own independent wars)

Thrallia

Feb 26, 2007, 03:19 PM

and I'm still wanting to know how to make dot maps ;)

Jenarie

Feb 26, 2007, 03:21 PM

I've been playing with dot maps for a while now and I can't seem to get one I'm happy with. The one I posted above is ok but I agree with Sam that we need more coastal cities on that side. It would probably be better if we shifted orange and light blue west.

I'm afraid we may be kicking ourselves later if we need to get over there fast and have to sail all the way around. Orange may be enough to cover it as it is but if we want to move fast we may want two cities on that side making boats?

Jenarie

Feb 26, 2007, 03:21 PM

Ack Thrallia I posted instructions but I edited into my reply probably at the same time you were posting after me so it didn't show up for you as new. Its up a couple posts sorry. :(

To make dot maps: Scroll around the map until you have what you need showing. Then if you hit CTR ALT F you get "flying camera mode" which means you can have the cultural boundaries and the resources or basically anything you want showing at the same time. I hit Print Screen (so I don't get that naming square) and then paste it into paint. You can use any editing software but paint is easy - just use the line drawing utility to get your lines.

Edit: I edit a lot I may have to stop that but it saves some of the post spam by me. :(
I'm looking forward to seeing your map I was going to work on one based on your suggestions but since you said you were going to do I haven't done those. :)

Sam_Yeager

Feb 26, 2007, 03:35 PM

To make dot maps: Scroll around the map until you have what you need showing. Then if you hit CTR ALT F you get "flying camera mode" which means you can have the cultural boundaries and the resources or basically anything you want showing at the same time. I hit Print Screen (so I don't get that naming square) and then paste it into paint. You can use any editing software but paint is easy - just use the line drawing utility to get your lines.

Don't you have to enable 'flying camera mode' in the .ini file first?

I usually used to just zoom out enough and then hit Print Screen and edit in Paint. However it doesn't seem to work as well in Warlords for some reason. The grid lines don't show up as well either. I'll have to investigate further.

Btw the way I believe there is a bug in Warlords where the resources don't show for the bottom four rows.

Jenarie

Feb 26, 2007, 03:37 PM

Ohh I may have had to edit ini file for flying mode I don't remember. I like it because it shows the grids - if you zoom out in normal mode you don't get the grid and you can't get the resources AND the culture colors it is either/or.

Sam_Yeager

Feb 26, 2007, 03:48 PM

I see no current reason to get Pottery. We don't need it to unlock MC since we aren't going toward the Oracle, and since we've got so many hills/food resoruces available right now, we don't need it for cottages anytime soon. I think it is perfectly viable waiting to get Pottery until we can trade for it.

Ragnar is Aggressive & Financial. Not getting cottages up and running early strikes me as foolish and not making best use of our civ's traits. I agree that the Wheel and Mysticism need to come next but I feel Pottery should come soon after that.

On the point about waiting until we trade for it this has been the reason why I have been going on about getting a coastal city in the west. Ghandhi won't trade with us. The AI will only trade when they know at least two civs and Kublai hasn't met Ghandhi yet. Even when he does he may not be that helpful. We could be waiting quite a while before we can trade with anybody.

Sam_Yeager

Feb 26, 2007, 04:47 PM

Sam, the pigs are already under capitol culture, thus would be immediately accessible to a new city.

Hmmm, I thought cities could only work resources that were within their cultural boundary. Are you saying that's not the case?

Jenarie

Feb 26, 2007, 05:01 PM

Cities don't have a cultural boundary exactly. The entire nation has one and it just starts and is earned by each city. Once a tile is in your cultural boundary it can be worked by any city that has it in the fat cross no matter which city earned the culture.

Hope that makes sense. Easiest way to see it would probably be to start a couple games and overlap some cities. You get some odd shapes but you do get to work the tile.

Sam_Yeager

Feb 26, 2007, 05:15 PM

Htadus

Feb 26, 2007, 05:15 PM

As a proponaent of the Pyramids, I agree with what has been said about its merits. I would prefer to start on it after we have 3 cities total.

Having look at the map made by Jenarie again, I think the City northwest of capital should be moved one tile west to make it a coastal city. It will get 3 land tile on the other side, and will get 2 food resources. We need a coastal city on that side.

I am inclining toward that city as our 3rd city because it will grow faster and give us another food resource and with the river and plains tiles we can have a decent production city. The city to the south may still be an option if we see some land based food resource there. If Kahn settle there we just take it as a planed.

Oh on a side note, I just recently learned on Warlord (not a good thing) that chariots can wreck havock on Axes. So we need to have a at least 1 spear with our Axes for protection. And we need to secure horses.

So for the next 20 turns:

Science: After AH, start on the Wheel followed by Myst.
Build: Switch to Settler and rush with 1 pop, warrior, WB for exploration.
Settle NEXT to gold Edited per Sam_Yeager observation

WB is the better explorer available right now.

Please feel free to comment. I will play in about 7 hours. 10 PM west coast USA.

Htadus

Feb 26, 2007, 05:21 PM

Some thing to keep in mind.

The proximity of India and us is not very good after we get to industrial age and beyond when we all have bombers. We are going to need to relocate in order to keep the science going fast with out going into major WW. Usually India would have to relocate :D but we can not break the back of india in this game:sad: . We should somehow plant a third Civ between (Physically) us and india. Even if it is a crippled Khan.

Sam_Yeager

Feb 26, 2007, 05:34 PM

So for the next 20 turns:

Science: After AH, start on the Wheel followed by Myst.
Build: Switch to Settler and rush with 1 pop, warrior, WB for exploration.
Settle on gold

Sounds good to me. I'm assuming 'settle on gold' means settle on the site previously discussed. I certainly like the idea of the NW city moving one tile west as well.

Htadus

Feb 26, 2007, 05:37 PM

Sounds good to me. I'm assuming 'settle on gold' means settle on the site previously discussed. I certainly like the idea of the NW city moving one tile west as well.

Yes :) . To settle "on" gold would be a stonning offense.:lol:

Jenarie

Feb 26, 2007, 06:13 PM

Having look at the map made by Jenarie again, I think the City northwest of capital should be moved one tile west to make it a coastal city. It will get 3 land tile on the other side, and will get 2 food resources. We need a coastal city on that side.

I am inclining toward that city as our 3rd city because it will grow faster and give us another food resource and with the river and plains tiles we can have a decent production city. The city to the south may still be an option if we see some land based food resource there. If Kahn settle there we just take it as a planed.

That is light blue city, correct? I think moving light blue and orange both 1 tile west would make the map a lot better. I doubt we really have any land tiles on the other side of the water though since we'll get into culture push with Gandhi although I guess it depends where he places his cities.

The whole plan may need to be redone once we know where horses are and get a little more exploring done but I think it's good to start with at least. :)

Btw Gold City is going to be settled on a desert hill not a plains hill. I think it was mentioned as plains earlier but on looking closer it is desert. I still think it is the best place to settle so didn't mention it earlier but in case it matters to someone thought I'd mention it.

Jenarie

Feb 26, 2007, 06:22 PM

:gold: Should Gold City be called El Dorado? :gold:

"A legendary city or historical region of the New World, often thought to be in South America, that was fabled for its great wealth of gold and precious jewels and eagerly sought by 16th- and 17th-century explorers, including Sir Walter Raleigh."

"El Dorado is used figuratively to mean any place of fabulous wealth, a utopian dream, or the land of desire."

Gold City is boring and I always have trouble remembering which city is which with the computer names. :)

Thrallia

Feb 26, 2007, 09:34 PM

well, ordinarily the second viking city is called Uppsala. Considering though that we called a city Lodestone City and another Coppertownski last time, I've got no problems with El Dorado lol

gonna try to get my dotmap worked out now...if it doesn't work, it'll be about 12 more hours before I get it done

The-Hawk

Feb 26, 2007, 09:51 PM

Ragnar is Aggressive & Financial. Not getting cottages up and running early strikes me as foolish and not making best use of our civ's traits. I agree that the Wheel and Mysticism need to come next but I feel Pottery should come soon after that.

I completely agree with this. I also think that a granary in the capital can help speed expansion... with all that food, whipping settlers is a good approach. The dot maps look great, but if we are slow building settlers, we might find our neighbors infringing on the plan.

Not sure why the hurry for Mysticism? Looks like most of the cities on the dot map have key resources in the center square. Exception is the corn in the gold city, but the pigs will do to get that one started. I'm guessing we have plenty of time to come back to mysticism before we need to expand cities.

RE: coastal cities... the UB really doesn't thrill me. I'd rather have extra land tiles and cottages with financial trait.

Htadus

Feb 26, 2007, 10:24 PM

I completely agree with this. I also think that a granary in the capital can help speed expansion... with all that food, whipping settlers is a good approach. The dot maps look great, but if we are slow building settlers, we might find our neighbors infringing on the plan.

Not sure why the hurry for Mysticism? Looks like most of the cities on the dot map have key resources in the center square. Exception is the corn in the gold city, but the pigs will do to get that one started. I'm guessing we have plenty of time to come back to mysticism before we need to expand cities.

RE: coastal cities... the UB really doesn't thrill me. I'd rather have extra land tiles and cottages with financial trait.

I too totally agree with the grainary in the capital and for that matter all other cities. Having the ability to whip a unit every 15 turns or a building will only work well with a grainary. And those lowely cottages....got to love em especially if they are next to a river.:drool:

We only need a couple good coastal cities and we can build the UB there. In civ3 I would not build any coastal cities if Vikings are around. In civ4, it appear any unit can attack from ships. If the cities are not coastal we can have rapid reaction units stratergically located to provide protection.

As for coastal cities, I have nothing against them if they provide seafood and preferably located on a notch like our capital is. That way we still get the health benefits of a coastal city and plenty of land tiles.

Htadus

Feb 26, 2007, 10:29 PM

"El Dorado Sala" here we come. I will play in 1.5 hrs.

Thrallia

Feb 26, 2007, 11:06 PM

I'm not against pottery early, but what with us having 3 food resources and tons of hills, I assumed we would be mainly working production tiles for at least the near term.

That said, I do love those cottages, if we plan to work them :)

Htadus

Feb 27, 2007, 12:34 AM

That is light blue city, correct? I think moving light blue and orange both 1 tile west would make the map a lot better. I doubt we really have any land tiles on the other side of the water though since we'll get into culture push with Gandhi although I guess it depends where he places his cities.

The whole plan may need to be redone once we know where horses are and get a little more exploring done but I think it's good to start with at least. :)

Btw Gold City is going to be settled on a desert hill not a plains hill. I think it was mentioned as plains earlier but on looking closer it is desert. I still think it is the best place to settle so didn't mention it earlier but in case it matters to someone thought I'd mention it.

Yes, the light blue city and you are correct we may have to make changes per where we find horses and iron.

Sorry to hear that is a desert hill since that may mean we will only get 1 hpt, but I thought I saw two hammers there. Oh well.

I am going to play now.

Htadus

Feb 27, 2007, 02:40 AM

Summary: We learn AH and the Wheel and 2 turns to get Myst. Settled El Dorado-sala (could not resist it). We have horses. :dance: Discovered Gandhi must have gotton a city from the hut.

Roster

Thrallia
Htadus - Just Played
harbourboy - to be skipped
Sam - Next
jenarie - On deck
markh

Suggestion to next player: When El Do grow in 2 turns, let Cap use the pigs for one (or two) turn to grow to 4. I recommend we build another settler next in the Cap (after the WB and the Axe in the que is completed) to claim the next city. We may want to move south to settle the Gem city. I would build a worker in Eldo after the warrior. With the pig and a rush that will come very fast.

Request: Please complete the mine I partially started on the labeled tile for the Cap next.

2800 BC (Turn 40) Switch build to settler. MM tiles to get AH in 6 turns.

2770 BC (Turn 41) Zzz

2740 BC (Turn 42) MM to get settler out in 17 and learn AH in 4 turns.

2710 BC (Turn 43) Zzz

2680 BC (Turn 44) Zzz
IBT: Judaism FIDL

2650 BC (Turn 45) Complete copper mine.

2620 BC (Turn 46) Learn AH and the horses are just out side of fat cross in the south.:D When the Cap expand next we will have access to it. Start the wheel and mm to learn in 9 turns. Worker to Pigs.
IBT: Gandhi adopt slavery.

2590 BC (Turn 47) Worker start pasture.

2560 BC (Turn 48) Zzz

2530 BC (Turn 49) Zzz

2500 BC (Turn 50) Mm city to rush settler next turn and moved warrior out to new city site.
IBT: Gi