I know the theory well. The part I still have trouble with is the fact that early in the game, the 1 gold mine is almost 10% of our total commerce.

I agree we need to work the gold though, it is such a significant boost.

Think of this … at 80% science, lit in 7, take off the gold, lit in 8. 24 food in the hopper already, after the poprush for 2, we need what, 44? That is 20 more, we will be 13 – 8 = 5 excess FPT, so gold is back in 4 turns … So the rush gives up 4 turns of the gold and 1 turn of speed on lit to found Oz 8 turns earlier … looks like a good deal to me ! :D But maybe we want that whip for the G Lib? I'm sure R1 can run the build math.

The reason for GLib in Cibola is the purity of the GS gene pool. And I forgot about the GS points from the wonder itself. If we can support 1 more Scientist, that gives 11 GPP's/t and our first GS only 14 turns after completion. We can run any mix of specialists in Nidaros. I always like to have more than 1 city producing GPP's if possible. After National Epic, you get most of your GP's from that city, but you can still time things to pick up others efficiently, and you can target specific types from the alternate cities.

The other reason I like Glib in Cibola is that we can build many things more quickly in Nidaros while Glib is under construction. With all if the excess food in Nidaros, settlers and workers will be fast. We could add some mines in exchange for coast squares for items that must be produced with hammers.

I'm fairly ambivalent about where to build GLib, good arguments both ways. If I had to choose I'd prob go for Nidaros just 'cos I tend to concentrate wonders in one good city. That way I can whack the +100% GPP wonder in there and gets hideous amounts of GP points. I admit it does not allow you to fully control which type of GP you get though, so that's largely why I could be argued either way. The idea of what else we can build in Nidaros instead of the G Lib is a convincing reason to put the G Lib in Cibola (as long as we are sure we can get it just as fast there as Nidaros), if it is true! After the two whips, 7 vs 8 base hammers, so not that much diff ... but we can whip more often in Nidaros, so maybe you are right.

I might send the workers to chop it in Cibola just to be sure we don’t get beat to it. So I am fine building it in either place.

@ R1: as opposed to the items that don’t have to be produced with hammers? :lol:

I guess we could found some cities even closer to Gandhi for earlier give away. Maybe the good site in the north, grabing the Iron, Sheep, and Corn, and being coastal as well.

We could build one on the peninsula W of Cibola, but the spot isn't really that good.

I like Kahn's city sites as well as any of our own.

I'd prob go for founding a new city north of nidaros sometime soon now, I think our infrastructure is building up well enough. I am posting a screenshot of some ideas for the north. We could build Ferrous with or without Fishy. With Fishy, might relocate Ferrous a bit.

How much do you think the score graph can really tell us? We're trying to lose! All I am saying is look at the sudden drop by CRC (and Chokonuts, but maybe that is an accident). Looks like a city giveaway to me! Unless they lost one and took it right back ... :crazyeye:

dV

I would definitely plan on chopping the 2 forests for GLib in Cibola! The overflow doubled because of the Marble is just such a nice trick, an 80+ hammer jumpstart on a 525 build. Equivalent to 5 turns production, that is what we give up by rushing early. It is a trade off for sure. Do you want more confidence in completing the wonder, or getting the city up 8 turns earlier.

I suppose it might be possible to pop rush something else right before the wonder as well as the settler now. :D I don't think the 2 red faces will matter during the build, we still have enough happy to work all the tiles we need. Pop rush the settler now and a spear the turn before Lit comes in. I'm going to send the second worker down to help quarry the Marble, and build another worker in Nidaros after the Library to backfill in the north. Then the 2 workers in the south will be able to clear jungle quicker.;)

I'm going to run some numbers on pop rushing 2 items in this scenario.:scan:

I would definitely plan on chopping the 2 forests for GLib in Cibola! The overflow doubled because of the Marble is just such a nice trick, an 80+ hammer jumpstart on a 525 build. Equivalent to 5 turns production, that is what we give up by rushing early. It is a trade off for sure. Do you want more confidence in completing the wonder, or getting the city up 8 turns earlier. Maybe the extra confidence in completing the wonder is the way to go. Here is a discounting adjustment to the da_Vinci doctrine that I did not think of until just now:

While at turn 400 you get a bonus of the net output from the city for turns 393 to 400 (for an 8 turn earlier start, our case), by the time turn 400 arrives, everything costs more, so in terms of tech, or units/buildings, it may still just be the difference between 1 or 2 turns of the time to a tech or unit/building. And higher inflation later erodes some of the commerce bonus later on.

So whiping the settler for a faster city has a benefit, just not as large as I previously thought. May not outweigh security for the wonder.

I suppose it might be possible to pop rush something else right before the wonder as well as the settler now. :D I don't think the 2 red faces will matter during the build, we still have enough happy to work all the tiles we need. Pop rush the settler now and a spear the turn before Lit comes in. I'm going to send the second worker down to help quarry the Marble, and build another worker in Nidaros after the Library to backfill in the north. Then the 2 workers in the south will be able to clear jungle quicker.;) Of course, if we put G Lib in Nidaros, then there is no loss in whipping the settler in Cibola right away! :D Might that be the best of all worlds solution? All we give up is the pure gene pool. I think that Cibola has almost as many hammers as Nidaros, so not much production difference for other stuff while we build G Lib. We could whip the library into Great Lib if we time it right in Nidaros. And the high food in Nidaros would allow us to whip the G Lib at the end of its construction if we want or need (or we could chop 3 forests for it ... a pair of workers chops in 3 turns ... all doubled, which brings Nidaros back on line for troops that much sooner, and gets the science coming sooner). Or even a double whip scenario in Nidaros (lib now, then spear into G Lib)? That will take some examining.

Once we get lit, we need to look at the diplo screen to see if G has lit as well. If so, he may also be chasing G Lib. I think we need it so we can get astronomy and migrate, so we need a good science rate. We can give it to him later. But if G has lit, we may need to build G Lib in Nidaros for the extra chops.

But the pure gene pool is nice too, so I won't be unhappy either way we go ... but I am thinking that whip settler in Cibola and build G Lib in Nidaros may be the slightly better play. But if your double whip (settler and spear) in Cibola works too, I can support that.

We need C63 to cast his tiebreaker vote between us! :lol: But is he away for a while ...?

dV

PS: Don't forget to optimize our fogbusting ... seems like so long ago I discussed that ;)

I'm away from the game now, and both options for GLib seem good for me. As it is R1's turn, I guess he should get the right to choose. Bear in mind each chop yields 44*2.25 (marble+forge)=99h. Each carry-over hammer also gets multiplied by 2.25, so let's time the whip carefully. Whipping the wonder itself is bad.

Other random thoughts:
. road the pig;
. the northern barbs can be swords/spears, so finish that axe; other than that keep pumping troops at the city not building GLib.
. get construction after lit, for the cats. Next techs can be discussed after this turnset.
. let's get more cities - Khan's cities looks juicier than the northern wilderness. But when we get there, I vote for 2 cities, both coastal from dV's last dotmap.

Northern Cities!

I think both should be coastal as well.

I'm going to play later today, you have a few hours to post any last bits of advice.

I'm away from the game now, and both options for GLib seem good for me. As it is R1's turn, I guess he should get the right to choose. Bear in mind each chop yields 44*2.25 (marble+forge)=99h. Each carry-over hammer also gets multiplied by 2.25, so let's time the whip carefully. Whipping the wonder itself is bad.

. the northern barbs can be swords/spears, so finish that axe; other than that keep pumping troops at the city not building GLib.
. get construction after lit, for the cats. Next techs can be discussed after this turnset.
. let's get more cities - Khan's cities looks juicier than the northern wilderness. But when we get there, I vote for 2 cities, both coastal from dV's last dotmap. C63 has the role of our wise sage, I think ;) (I will gladly admit to the babbling fool role :lol: )

Finishing the axe would imply GLib in Nidaros, or a double whip in Cibola.

I think const after lit is a consensus. City choices (north or Khan) is a next set decision I think.

Northern Cities!

I think both should be coastal as well.

I'm going to play later today, you have a few hours to post any last bits of advice. I trust your judgement between the potential single and double whip scenarios in both Nidaros and Cibola. Just think about which city we want to be building in if G has lit as well. If we need to race G for it, then maybe Nidaros with more trees?

For the future, Ferrous founded in the north has a lot of hills and two food resources, so maybe that is an eventual HE city? Or perhaps one of Khan's?

dV

New save is up. I played to T165

The roster order is:

da_Vinci - on deck
Jon Shaw - in the hole
Conquistador 63 - waiting
g_storrow - waiting
Ronnie1 - just played
Immaculate - UP NOW

I pop rushed the Library in Nidaros to start the turnset. Same with the settler in Cibola. Cibola followed with an axe that headed N to support the lonely warrior. It proved a good move as I was able to spot G's Trireme well up the coast, giving Nidaros a number of turns lead time to counter. After the axe Cibola built a spear that was pop rushed on the last turn for a 41H carryover into "THE GREAT LIBRARY"!! The new worker chopped the first forest for 44H, the first turn of GL was 207 Hammers!! There are still 2 forests to chop if needed. The worker is currently chopping 1 of the 2. Gandhi just got Lit last turn (T164). He did not have it when we started the GL. I would vote for not risking the wonder and chopping both remaining forests. Another worker will be available next turn to assist.

Nidaros followed the Lib with a worker and another worker was started after that. But that is the worker that is still in the que. I had to switch to a Trireme after I spotted G's Trireme headed down the coast.

The workers at Florence have quarried the Marble, and cleared and farmed 1 of the sugars. Florence just pop rushed the Granary, we will grow much faster with the added food now.

Kahn sent a settler towards the barb city in the SE. I have not investigated any further.

Gandhi landed troops at OZ! :eek: Luckily no spears, we made short work of the archer and the axe. But we can probably expect a steady stream light attacks from now on. I just realized I left our Trireme sleeping down by Kahn's city. Sorry :sad:

I don't think Kahn will attack until he is out of room to expand peacefully, especially if we keep our defenses up. I think we need to keep Nidaros on troop production for a little while.

The Auto Log
Turn 153 (205 BC)
Nidaros begins: Worker
Cibola begins: Axeman

Turn 154 (190 BC)
Cibola's borders expand

Turn 155 (175 BC)
Cibola finishes: Axeman
Florence grows: 2
Christianity founded in a distant land

Turn 156 (160 BC)
Cibola begins: Spearman
OZ founded
Haithabu begins: Library
Cibola grows: 5

Turn 157 (145 BC)
Chariot defeats (0.80/4): Barbarian Archer
Tech learned: Literature
Nidaros finishes: Worker

Turn 158 (130 BC)
Research begun: Construction
Nidaros begins: Worker

Turn 159 (115 BC)

Turn 160 (100 BC)

Turn 161 (85 BC)
Fog busting Axe in the North spots Gandhi Trireme:(
Nidaros begins: Trireme

Turn 162 (70 BC)
Cibola begins: The Great Library
Nidaros grows: 8
Cibola grows: 5
Cibola finishes: Spearman

Turn 163 (55 BC)
Pop rush Trireme, can't wait any longer!:blush:

Turn 164 (40 BC)
Gandhi lands Troops at Oz
Chariot defeats (1.84/4): Indian Archer
Chariot defeats (1.20/4): Indian Axeman
Nidaros finishes: Trireme

Turn 165 (25 BC)
Pop rush Granary in Florence, we now have sugar farm for growth.

The Upload Log
Here is your Session Turn Log from 220 BC to 25 BC:

Turn 152, 220 BC: You have trained a Settler in Cibola. Work has now begun on a Aqueduct.
Turn 152, 220 BC: Zoroaster (Great Prophet) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 154, 190 BC: The borders of Cibola have expanded!
Turn 154, 190 BC: The Kashi Vishwanath has been built in a far away land!

Turn 155, 175 BC: You have trained a Axeman in Cibola. Work has now begun on a Aqueduct.
Turn 155, 175 BC: Christianity has been founded in Calcutta!
Turn 155, 175 BC: Genghis Khan adopts Hereditary Rule!

Turn 156, 160 BC: OZ has been founded.

Turn 157, 145 BC: Gypsy Kings's Chariot (4.80) vs Barbarian's Archer (3.30)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Combat Odds: 86.3%
Turn 157, 145 BC: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 157, 145 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Gypsy Kings's Chariot is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Gypsy Kings's Chariot is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Gypsy Kings's Chariot is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Gypsy Kings's Chariot is hit for 16 (36/100HP)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Gypsy Kings's Chariot is hit for 16 (20/100HP)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Gypsy Kings's Chariot has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 157, 145 BC: You have discovered Literature!
Turn 157, 145 BC: Gandhi adopts Theocracy!

Turn 162, 70 BC: Cibola has grown to size 5
Turn 162, 70 BC: You have trained a Spearman in Cibola. Work has now begun on The Great Library.
Turn 162, 70 BC: Gottfried Leibniz (Great Scientist) has been born in Delhi (Gandhi)!

Turn 163, 55 BC: The enemy has been spotted near OZ!
Turn 163, 55 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 44 ? for Cibola.

Turn 164, 40 BC: The enemy has been spotted near OZ!
Turn 164, 40 BC: The enemy has been spotted near OZ!
Turn 164, 40 BC: Gypsy Kings's Chariot (4.00) vs Gandhi's Archer (3.30)
Turn 164, 40 BC: Combat Odds: 73.4%
Turn 164, 40 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 164, 40 BC: Gandhi's Archer is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 164, 40 BC: Gypsy Kings's Chariot is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 164, 40 BC: Gandhi's Archer is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 164, 40 BC: Gypsy Kings's Chariot is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 164, 40 BC: Gandhi's Archer is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 164, 40 BC: Gypsy Kings's Chariot is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 164, 40 BC: Gandhi's Archer is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 164, 40 BC: Gandhi's Archer is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 164, 40 BC: Gypsy Kings's Chariot has defeated Gandhi's Archer!
Turn 164, 40 BC: Your Chariot has destroyed a Archer!
Turn 164, 40 BC: Gypsy Kings's Chariot (5.20) vs Gandhi's Axeman (2.77)
Turn 164, 40 BC: Combat Odds: 98.8%
Turn 164, 40 BC: (Extra Combat: -30%)
Turn 164, 40 BC: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 164, 40 BC: (Class Attack: -100%)
Turn 164, 40 BC: Gandhi's Axeman is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 164, 40 BC: Gypsy Kings's Chariot is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 164, 40 BC: Gypsy Kings's Chariot is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 164, 40 BC: Gypsy Kings's Chariot is hit for 14 (58/100HP)
Turn 164, 40 BC: Gypsy Kings's Chariot is hit for 14 (44/100HP)
Turn 164, 40 BC: Gandhi's Axeman is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 164, 40 BC: Gandhi's Axeman is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 164, 40 BC: Gypsy Kings's Chariot is hit for 14 (30/100HP)
Turn 164, 40 BC: Gandhi's Axeman is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 164, 40 BC: Gypsy Kings's Chariot has defeated Gandhi's Axeman!
Turn 164, 40 BC: Your Chariot has destroyed a Axeman!
Turn 164, 40 BC: You have trained a Trireme in Nidaros. Work has now begun on a Worker.

Turn 165, 25 BC: The enemy has been spotted near OZ!
Turn 165, 25 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Nidaros!

Looks good R1! :goodjob:

I think we want our trireme on defense on the clams ... defending ship on coast gets +10% strength, so we don't want to be the attacker.

The two workers in Florence should be dispatched to Cibola to chop, as we have enough developed tiles in Florence that are unworked for now. After current chop, Chop the forest WNW of the city.

After chariots heal, one needs to fogbust between OZ and Florence. I'd send something from OZ now if Khan's archers were not so close.

Micromanagememt: Nidaros has 2 whip unhappiness ... any idea how long that will last R1? Will be unhappy in 1 turn after worker done it seems. I suggest we stagnate the city by coming off the lake and corn, and run an engineer and a scientist. That should give us a great merch/eng/sci in 10 turns, and allow the unhappy in Nidaros to wear off. I'd build a spear next to send to Florence (I don't trust Khan). Immac should like the Gpers idea! ;)

Cibola: New pop in 6 ... might work the 2 hammer hill until G Lib done, then maybe the 4C coast for the commerce ... or the cottage to get it growing. Cibola has 2 whip unhappy to wear off as well.

Florence: I'd come off the gems and work the farmed sugar now, next pop in 5 (rather than 10) and work the gems again. Barracks in Florence next I think. Work the marble with the pop after the gems (another 5 turns).

OZ: After workers are done chopping GLib, road to Oz and mine gems and farm sugar. I might skip a barracks there as it is hammer poor ... use it to whip navy.

HE city? I don't see many hammers in Mongolia either (or else Khan would be coming with his horde!) So maybe Ferrous is the best Heroic Epic city. Maybe it doesn't have to be coastal: found 1N of iron, it gets max hills, lots of forest to chop, and two food. Maybe we found that before we go after Khan. 4 workers should be able to chop a library, granary and barracks pretty quick there.

That location leaves room to found Fishy later as a naval city.

Research? There are six things we need: currency, code, CS; and compass, machinery, optics. Compass, currency and code are pretty cheap. Compass allows harbors. Currency adds a trade route per city (new in Warlords, or have I missed that all these months?). Code lets us build courthouses, needed for expansion. I could go for currency and code next, as that seems to help economically, permit the expansion war, and gets us close to CS for bureaucracy (and those berserkers after machinery).

With a G?son in Nidaros and a GS on the way after GLib in Cibola, what are our bulbing options for these six techs? That sounds like a question for Immac ... perfect time for him to be up, I think! :D

If we get a GE in Nidaros, might we want to keep it to instantly make FP on the new continent when we migrate?

I think we are about 50 turns from an explosive expansion by the sword! :goodjob:

Is it me, or are all of Khan's cities not in the optimal locations? Do we keep, or raze and rebuild?

dV

Everything looks to be going well as can be expected. I was roading one of the golds to give to mongols for him to be nicer to use to maybe trade.
Any ideas about building HE in out capital to get more troops out to kick Mongols ass?

I should be able to play by Friday night.
I haven't read all the posts, but i'll be sure to do that before i play.

I.

Everything looks to be going well as can be expected. I was roading one of the golds to give to mongols for him to be nicer to use to maybe trade.
Any ideas about building HE in out capital to get more troops out to kick Mongols ass? I thought about whether we might get him trading if we gifted some gold, but I think we are too negative with him (it's his nature, I think) for that to matter. Maybe we can extort some stuff from him as we kill him off! :D

I still wonder if we don't want to save those national wonders for our new continent, if mass migration is our strategy (which I think it has to be for laurels ... we need to do something radical, I think).

dV

I should be able to play by Friday night.
I haven't read all the posts, but i'll be sure to do that before i play.

I. I think you are about to get a great person to play with if we stagnate Nidaros with specialist to wear off the whip unhappy.

dV

1. I think we want our trireme on defense on the clams ... defending ship on coast gets +10% strength, so we don't want to be the attacker.

2. Is it me, or are all of Khan's cities not in the optimal locations? Do we keep, or raze and rebuild?

3. A) The two workers in Florence should be dispatched to Cibola to chop, as we have enough developed tiles in Florence that are unworked for now. After current chop, Chop the forest WNW of the city.

B)Florence: I'd come off the gems and work the farmed sugar now, next pop in 5 (rather than 10) and work the gems again. Barracks in Florence next I think. Work the marble with the pop after the gems (another 5 turns).

4. After chariots heal, one needs to fogbust between OZ and Florence. I'd send something from OZ now if Khan's archers were not so close.

5. Micromanagememt: Nidaros has 2 whip unhappiness ... any idea how long that will last R1? Will be unhappy in 1 turn after worker done it seems.

6. Cibola: New pop in 6 ... might work the 2 hammer hill until G Lib done, then maybe the 4C coast for the commerce ... or the cottage to get it growing. Cibola has 2 whip unhappy to wear off as well.

7. Research?
dV

1. Definitely defend! I stationed him there because Gandhi has to attack or turn back, he can't go by on the ocean square.

2. I kind of like Karakorum and Turfan, the whole area is light on resources, not that many options as far as I can see.

3. A) Florence will grow fast now with the Granary. I think the workers need to stay there for the other sugar and then head for OZ. The new worker will be available this turn, that will be 2 for chopping in Cibola, I think that will be enough.

B) I agree that we should work the farm first, but I think we should work the second farm next and then the Gems @ size 3 and the Marble @ size 4. Then Scientist's after that.

4. Those Archers don't seem interested in us at all. I shadowed them closely as they moved up from Old Sarai until Candhi landed his troops. They seem to be interested in causing grief for the skinny one also.:lol:

5. I couldn't help the multi rushing, we needed the Trireme NOW! The first red face should wear off in 2 turns. We could come off the high food tiles or produce another settler/worker to eat up a few more turns. I would probably favor another worker right away, there is plenty for them to do. We could run an Engineer and 2 Scientists for 7 turns for our first Great something? A Merchant could bulb Currency, A scientist would bulb Compass, and an Engineer would bulb Machinery.

6. Definitely a hammer tile with the new pop until GL is done. But then I would max the Scientists here for the fastest GS city.

7. I think we go CoL next until we see what we can lightbulb with the Great person, there is no need to research any part of a tech we can bulb and CoL is not in the bulb lineup.;)

1. Definitely defend! I stationed him there because Gandhi has to attack or turn back, he can't go by on the ocean square. Ahhh ... so that is the line in the surf, so to speak. A good pickup, that being the choke point (300 anyone?)

2. I kind of like Karakorum and Turfan, the whole area is light on resources, not that many options as far as I can see. That is why I like Ferrous in the north. Mined iron hill is +6 hammers! Two food resources and six hills if founded 1 N of the iron. A ton of forests to chop. River allows farms to support hills if we wish. Dedicated hammer city.

3. A) Florence will grow fast now with the Granary. I think the workers need to stay there for the other sugar and then head for OZ. The new worker will be available this turn, that will be 2 for chopping in Cibola, I think that will be enough.

B) I agree that we should work the farm first, but I think we should work the second farm next and then the Gems @ size 3 and the Marble @ size 4. Then Scientist's after that. Let's disagree again (it seems to work so well! ;) ). Work the farm, Florence then has the gems, the marble and a mined hill it can work as pop grows. That is why we can use the workers elsewhere for about 15 turns before addressing that other sugar.

If that forest SW of the horses will also go to Cibola, that could be chopped as well for GLib. Four workers choping at once chop in 2 turns. The marble means that chop on G Lib gives max output from a chop, so let's chop three more into G Lib. We get it done sooner, get our free scientists sooner, and then Cibola can build troops sooner. Anything that accelerates our pace now is a good thing.

With roads in place, the workers can get back to Florece quickly to farm second sugar after we cover the other three developed tiles. OZ gets a jump start sooner if we wait on that second Florence sugar.

4. Those Archers don't seem interested in us at all. I shadowed them closely as they moved up from Old Sarai until Candhi landed his troops. They seem to be interested in causing grief for the skinny one also.:lol: But if we empty out OZ, might they become opportunistic? I suppose if they can't see into OZ, maybe not a problem and we can go fogbust now (with the spear?)

5. I couldn't help the multi rushing, we needed the Trireme NOW! The first red face should wear off in 2 turns. We could come off the high food tiles or produce another settler/worker to eat up a few more turns. I would probably favor another worker right away, there is plenty for them to do. We could run an Engineer and 2 Scientists for 7 turns for our first Great something? A Merchant could bulb Currency, A scientist would bulb Compass, and an Engineer would bulb Machinery. I agree that the multi-rushing was needed, no issue with that.

I think we might not need that extra worker just yet. No need to build things faster than there are citzens to work them. And we will soon be awash in Khan's workers! :D So I favor the eng and 1 scientist for a great pers in 10 turns, right now. If we let the pop grow, we are unhappy until one red face wears off, so 2 spec now, after 1 unhap wears of, back to food for one to grow pop and then run three specialists. Edit: talking about Nidaros of course.

6. Definitely a hammer tile with the new pop until GL is done. But then I would max the Scientists here for the fastest GS city. Sounds good.

7. I think we go CoL next until we see what we can lightbulb with the Great person, there is no need to research any part of a tech we can bulb and CoL is not in the bulb lineup.;)
We need either priesthood (2 turns) or currency to get code, so can't research code directly next. So 3 t to finish const, then either priest for 2 to start code, or throw flasks into something else waiting to see GPers results? (Drama? Calendar?)

dV

regrading the northern city. Do we plan on having two medium cities Or having one superb city. I think this decision depends on when and how many cities of the Mongols we are going to take. If we plan on having all his cities or a large majority of them which I think we are going to I think we only go for 1 northern city so as not to build up too many cities ,as I know DV espically is concerned we dont get too many for maintenances sake, which I agree with. I think my personal plan is we get this city founded then prodiuce troops form our main cities while out smaller ones get a basic granary, library? , and barracks before they start to join in the troop creation.

Another point is have we had time to test if we lose HE can we build another one? Maybe ask in forums. I will do that! If we can build another in the 'promised land' is it worthwhile to build one here for our war with the mongols and keeping G away. I think it is going to be another 1000yrs minimum until we can move and then I think we will have to move other nations of out land so to speak so troops will be needed there.

So i think we build the HE now even if we can't build another one. As we need the troops now for mongol destruction and forcably removing people from our new land. I propose a vote. The only problem I can forsee is which city. I havent studied the map that much recently and when I do I forget exact details. The northern city sounds good but it will need kicking into gear. As well if we build the super city which I suggest then we would not need a library in this prod cityas the HE will provide the culture. but then it cant build naval units which we will need to move which would be the only downside.
my twopenneth worth.

I'll do a little work on the HE capture ?.

The next 10 turns are mostly going to be troop and wonder building.

regrading the northern city. Do we plan on having two medium cities Or having one superb city. I think this decision depends on when and how many cities of the Mongols we are going to take. If we plan on having all his cities or a large majority of them which I think we are going to I think we only go for 1 northern city so as not to build up too many cities ,as I know DV espically is concerned we dont get too many for maintenances sake, which I agree with. I think my personal plan is we get this city founded then prodiuce troops form our main cities while out smaller ones get a basic granary, library? , and barracks before they start to join in the troop creation. One superb city makes sense to me ... if we make it coastal we have to found on a forest hill, losing the forest and the mime (why I say make it inland). If it's job is to make troops, don't need the commerce.

Another point is have we had time to test if we lose HE can we build another one? Maybe ask in forums. I will do that! If we can build another in the 'promised land' is it worthwhile to build one here for our war with the mongols and keeping G away. I think it is going to be another 1000yrs minimum until we can move and then I think we will have to move other nations of out land so to speak so troops will be needed there. I am startnig to agree that HE now may be more useful than HE later, as we must both kill Khan and fend off G, who is getting fiesty it seems.

So i think we build the HE now even if we can't build another one. As we need the troops now for mongol destruction and forcably removing people from our new land. I propose a vote. The only problem I can forsee is which city. I havent studied the map that much recently and when I do I forget exact details. The northern city sounds good but it will need kicking into gear. As well if we build the super city which I suggest then we would not need a library in this prod cityas the HE will provide the culture. but then it cant build naval units which we will need to move which would be the only downside.
my twopenneth worth. I like founding Ferrous on grassland 1 N of the iron. Put HE in it eventually (in which case we would not use it for ships anyway as they get no bonus from HE, right?). The large number of forests allow us to kick it into gear (maybe chop forge first, then chop lib, granary, barracks). There is my vote. The when to do it is negotiable. I'd make a few more units before I settle Ferrous ... don't want our defenses stretched too thin.

dV

After some brief simulation, I have discovered that you can rebuild any National Wonders that are destroyed. That increases our options!

Generally, I would prefer one good city to two mediocre ones. I think I'd stick with that preference here as well. Since it'll take some time to get up to speed then I vote for founding it sooner rather than later. Hopefully the intervening delay (for troop building) between founding it and our war against Khan will allow us itme ot build our economy enough to support our burgeoning empire.

I think the HE is of more use now than later, once you've got factories etc then the +100% is relatively less of a bonus if you see what I mean, and we should get to that era 'cos we're talking about a spaceship launch. If it can be rebuilt then the point is irrelevant anyway.

I am so sorry to have to do this after making you wait, but i think i will need a skip. RL has been really busy lately. So sorry.

I.

OK, I am playing now.

dV

Played to turn 180 (15 turns) ... had a little revenge to take on Gandhi ! :evil:

Synopsis: We own great library, we researched const, priest, code, and our great merchant bulbed currency (extra trade routes).

Khan took the iron barb city in the east.

We own Ferrous in the north! It used to be Gandhi's Kolhapur !! :eek: He settled there turn 169, four turns into my set. He might cut us off from that iron. I figured I would move troops north (one archer defending) and end my set ready to take it, but for group discussion.

Well, then Gandhi lands two swords on the Gold hill NW of Cibola!! :eek: Damn!! In it we have spear and warrior. Road from OZ is not quite complete.

Upload and discuss? Decided that there was only one path here ... whip the axe buiding in Cibola (good thing it arrives before G's turn! :D). Move troops from OZ to support. Clean up this mess before I hand off.

Spear and both chariots move toward Cibola, leaving OZ empty for now. Move chariot from Florence toward Cibola. Hit end turn ...

Gandhi decides that axe, spear warrior at 40% culture defense bonus is too tough. He pillages the NW mine and moves a sword to the mine due W.

I finish the road under the Oz troops. Axe promotes to shock (after auto Combat 1). Axe attacks the sword west of Cibola and kills him! :goodjob: The mine is saved. Spear from OZ joins him on that hill to defend the wounded axe. Chariot from Florence arrives in Cibola. The C1 + shock spear moves to the gold hill north of city to defend that mine.

The pesky Khan archers had moved toward the naked OZ, so I move both OZ chariots back into the city. I have three axes moving on Kolhapur in the north. Is another boatload coming from Bombay? Hit end turn ...

Sword stays on the NW hill. I need that pest dead! Axe attacks (58% odds I think), loses. But the sword is at 0.7 strength. The shock spear takes him out easily. Must entrench troops on all the gold hills to prevent this from happening again.

Plus, if Gandhi is going to be this agressive, we must take Kolhapur !! We can't give him that foothold on our landmass just yet, and threaten our iron. I decide to play an extra 5 turns to entrench Cibola and take Kolohapur. It is a marginal city for him, so he won't miss it. I expect to take it at pop 1, so I whip a settler to resettle Ferrous.

But it grows to pop 2, I attack when two cover axes are ready, and the first one kills the lone archer. :goodjob: I decide to save our settler and keep the city, as the location is the coastal option for Ferrous. I did forget that we probably have a 1 unhappy motherland yearning forever in that city ... maybe better to have razed it?

Gandhi's threat led to some urgent whipping which is why we have red faces in Nidaros and Cibola. The workers near the pigs should road to Ferrous and chop that library, then mine that iron.

We are mining gems in OZ. Then, maybe farm the ruins for pop growth to whip that library?

I think I met all of the objectives for this turnset :D

dV

Autolog:

Turn 166 (10 BC)
Nidaros begins: Spearman
Florence begins: Barracks

Turn 167 (5 AD)
Tech learned: Construction
Nidaros grows: 8

Turn 168 (20 AD)
Research begun: Priesthood
Research begun: Code of Laws

Turn 169 (35 AD)
User comment: Khan demands const, I say no. He does not declare
User comment: Ghandi founds between the sheep and corn in the north!
Tech learned: Priesthood
Nidaros finishes: Spearman
Florence grows: 2

Turn 170 (50 AD)
Nidaros begins: Trireme
Spearman promoted: Shock
Nidaros begins: Axeman

Turn 171 (65 AD)
Cibola finishes: The Great Library

Turn 172 (80 AD)
Cibola begins: Axeman
User comment: Great Library is ours!
OZ grows: 2

Turn 173 (95 AD)
Nidaros finishes: Axeman

Turn 174 (110 AD)
Nidaros begins: Settler
Jacques Cartier (Great Merchant) born in Nidaros
Florence grows: 3

Turn 175 (125 AD)
Tech learned: Currency
User comment: Gandhi lands two swords at Cibola !!
Cibola grows: 5
Cibola finishes: Axeman
Florence finishes: Barracks

Turn 176 (140 AD)
Cibola begins: Axeman
Florence begins: Axeman
Axeman promoted: Shock
Axeman defeats (3.20/5): Indian Swordsman
Chariot promoted: Shock
User comment: Whipped settler in Nidaros to rid 2 unhappy citizens
Nidaros finishes: Settler

Turn 177 (155 AD)
Nidaros begins: Axeman
Axeman promoted: Combat II
Axeman loses to: Indian Swordsman (0.72/6)
Spearman defeats (4.00/4): Indian Swordsman
Nidaros finishes: Axeman

Turn 178 (170 AD)
Nidaros begins: Spearman
Tech learned: Code of Laws
Nidaros grows: 6
Nidaros finishes: Spearman
Cibola finishes: Axeman

Turn 179 (185 AD)
Research begun: Civil Service
Nidaros begins: Spearman
Cibola begins: Worker
Axeman promoted: Cover
Axeman promoted: Cover
Axeman defeats (1.85/5): Indian Archer
Captured Kolhapur (Gandhi)
Kolhapur begins: Library
Florence begins: Forge

Turn 180 (200 AD)

Here is your Session Turn Log from 25 BC to 200 AD:

Turn 165, 25 BC: Louis Pasteur (Great Scientist) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 167, 5 AD: You have discovered Construction!

Turn 169, 35 AD: Khan demands const, I say no. He does not declare
Turn 169, 35 AD: Ghandi founds between the sheep and corn in the north!
Turn 169, 35 AD: You have discovered Priesthood!

Turn 171, 65 AD: Gypsy Kings has completed The Great Library!
Turn 171, 65 AD: Atisha (Great Prophet) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 172, 80 AD: Great Library is ours!

Turn 173, 95 AD: Mohammed Shah (Great Prophet) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 174, 110 AD: Jacques Cartier (Great Merchant) has been born in Nidaros (Gypsy Kings)!
Turn 174, 110 AD: Chehalis (Barbarian) has been captured by the Mongolian Empire!!!

Turn 175, 125 AD: You have discovered Currency!
Turn 175, 125 AD: Gandhi lands two swords at Cibola !!
Turn 175, 125 AD: Genghis Khan converts to <COLOR=102,229,255,255Christianity!

Turn 176, 140 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman (5.50) vs Gandhi's Swordsman (4.61)
Turn 176, 140 AD: Combat Odds: 72.8%
Turn 176, 140 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 176, 140 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 176, 140 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 176, 140 AD: (Combat: -75%)
Turn 176, 140 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 176, 140 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 176, 140 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 176, 140 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 176, 140 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 176, 140 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 176, 140 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 176, 140 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman has defeated Gandhi's Swordsman!
Turn 176, 140 AD: Whipped settler in Nidaros to rid 2 unhappy citizens
Turn 176, 140 AD: The Mahabodhi has been built in a far away land!

Turn 177, 155 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Nidaros!
Turn 177, 155 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman (4.92) vs Gandhi's Swordsman (4.28)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Combat Odds: 58.6%
Turn 177, 155 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 177, 155 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 177, 155 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 177, 155 AD: (Combat: -75%)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman is hit for 17 (65/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman is hit for 17 (48/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman is hit for 17 (31/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman is hit for 17 (14/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman is hit for 17 (0/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman has defeated Gypsy Kings's Axeman!
Turn 177, 155 AD: Gypsy Kings's Spearman (4.40) vs Gandhi's Swordsman (0.79)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 177, 155 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 177, 155 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 177, 155 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 177, 155 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Gypsy Kings's Spearman has defeated Gandhi's Swordsman!
Turn 177, 155 AD: <COLOR=252,147,40,255Nidaros will grow to size 6 on the next turn

Turn 178, 170 AD: You have discovered Code of Laws!
Turn 178, 170 AD: <COLOR=252,147,40,255Nidaros has grown to size 6
Turn 178, 170 AD: <COLOR=255,76,76,255Nidaros has become unhappy

Turn 179, 185 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman (5.50) vs Gandhi's Archer (6.60)
Turn 179, 185 AD: Combat Odds: 21.9%
Turn 179, 185 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 179, 185 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 179, 185 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 179, 185 AD: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 179, 185 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 179, 185 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 179, 185 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 179, 185 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 179, 185 AD: Gandhi's Archer is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 179, 185 AD: Gandhi's Archer is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 179, 185 AD: Gandhi's Archer is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 179, 185 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 179, 185 AD: Gandhi's Archer is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 179, 185 AD: Gandhi's Archer is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 179, 185 AD: Gandhi's Archer is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 179, 185 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman has defeated Gandhi's Archer!
Turn 179, 185 AD: Your Axeman has destroyed a Archer!
Turn 179, 185 AD: You have captured Kolhapur!!!

I just realized that by putting the play results as an edit to the playing now post, it might not show as new material if you look in the "my account" area. So here is a post to make it show up.

dV

So dV and I seem to be disagreeing often lately. And I must say, I disagree completely with the move to capture Ferrous. I don't see how this helps speed Gandhi into space at all.:confused:

We can win a laurel with 1 city. This game is not about us. We need to build our forces and move south, away from Gandhi.

The roster order is:

da_Vinci - just played
Jon Shaw - UP NOW
Conquistador 63 - on deck
g_storrow - in the hole
Ronnie1 - waiting
Immaculate - skipped

I may be missing something, but I just don't feel like we want to fight Gandhi at all.:sad:

I agree with R1. However, I acknowledge it must have been a tough decision for dV. Maybe a midturn save for team discussion would have been better. But I can understand his urge to complete his turnset (the "just one more turn" stuff ;) )

Maybe this is the time for rediscuss our goals.

I see that what I thought was a no brainer was an unpopular choice. So let me explain the rationale.

If Gandhi had never settled there, my sense was that we wanted a single city in the north to use the corn iron and sheep there. So by taking Kolhapur, we are where we would have been if Gandhi had never settled there.

Second point, we are only borrowing the city. I fully expect we will give it back to him at some point. It is hard to see how that city, distant from his capital, with no land connection to his workers, etc., was going to be a major boost to him in the short run. We need it more than he does right now.

Third, we can't just let G walk all over us until we have established ourselves at least in Mongolia, if not overseas. We need to be powerful enough to hamstring G's rivals later in the game if necessary. Some incusions by G will have to be resisted if they threaten our existence too severely.

Assuming that the defense of Cibola is considered a correct decision (or is that also in question?), I think we have to protect our core (Cibola, Nidaros), at least for a while. To leave Kolhapur intact puts Nidaros on the frontier (Cibola is subject to sea attack at any time already!). To leave it intact also risks our access to iron. And maybe later threatens our copper as well?

We are potentially between a hammer and an anvil right now. I think we have to hold the line on G until we have Khan on the run.

That having been said, I should not have let my sense of certainty as to what to do about Kolhapur lead me to execute that without group discussion, so that was a mistake on my part. I apologize for my lack of consideration :blush:

dV

After my non-consultation gaffe :blush: let's look at what is good about our present situation.

At 25 BC, scores were G 775, K 474, Us 387

Soldiers: Best 173,000 Ave 129,428 Us 96,000 and Worst 83,000

At 200 AD, scores are G 821, K 588, Us 522. We are reeling Khan in, a necessity to make war on him successfully. And we have closed the gap with G. If G gets too far ahead of us early, he might damage us beyond repair. Not that we hold him back (within reason), but we make progress to keep up.

Soldiers: Best 214,000 Ave 158,142 Us 117,000 Worst 96,000. This is always hard to read, but at least we are gaining on the world weakling, our likely first target when we have astronomy (unless it is Khan! He'll be dead by then).

Florence is now a legitimate troop production city with 8H per turn in 2 turns when the next pop works the mined hill, and still +2 net food. More hills to mine there, so maybe Florence is our HE city?

OZ is four turns from having the gems mined. Then I suggest we farm the ruins to speed pop to pop rush that library. That pair could then run to farm the other Florence sugar while OZ expands, then come back for the OZ sugar.

I see why we have red faces in Ciblola and Nidaros ... G pilaged our only roaded Gold. Didn't see that before (sorry :sad: ) So one worker comes back to road the gold and we are back on track in those cities. The gold due west may already have some turns invested in the road IIRC. In which case maybe we pause the worker, as that was in part to hold pop while unhappy wears off. Could resume him after we get the third gold up again.

Assuming that we decide to develop Ferrous rather than give it back at the earliest opportunity (see below), road up, chop lib and mine iron. Iron gives us sword for Khan (and later our UU, the berserkers).

Maybe this is the time for rediscuss our goals. Goals and also route to goals.

It seems that overall, the "rolling thunder" idea has general acceptance: let Gandhi occupy our rear as we move forward in the opposite direction, even off the continent The disagreement may be in how we execute that.

My view is that the thunder can't roll until we have some thunder in hand. The retreat on G's frontier has to be controlled, it has to be on our schedule, not his. Until we have momentum against K, we have to hold the border with G. That means for now, we hold OZ, we hold Cibola, and we hold Ferrous.

In the past, when I have talked about giving cities to G, others have posted that it is too soon to give away our cities. I could not agree more!

Ferrous was our city, and its land was our land, in my mind. Gandhi settling Kolhapur was in my mind the equivalent of lettting him capture Ferrous. If I had founded Ferrous and then G landed troops, would we not have defended it? If the consesus is that we would have retreated and let it fall, then I am way off the page in my thinking! :eek:

And now that we have it, are we serious about keeping it? If G attacks soon, do we give it right back? Only if the answer to both these questions is "yes, let it fall" can the capture of Kolhapur be considered a mistake IMO. If we would hold in one of these cases, then taking the city simply creates a situation that we would fight to defend in another case.

Leaving Kolhapur also would give G a land base to attack Nidaros, and worse, our only copper source which is barely within our border. I really believe that taking Kolhapur and keeping it as Ferrous is essential to stabilizing our northern and western border with G, which must be stable as we turn our attention to Khan. I am more comfortable with a buffer north of Nidaros for now.

But, maybe I am alone in this belief? If everyone agrees that Kolhapur should not have been taken, then I will have to make an adjustment to my sense of our approach. And make even more apologies! :blush:

dV

Let us have a brief discussion about strategy for the next 100 or so turns. dV's last post is a good starting point.

The main issue I'm seeing with this game can be summed up in this sentence, "It seems like it should be easy to lose, but it's not!" We have developed our strategies for winning at Civ over many years, versions, upgrades, and add-ons, etc...It is hard to break away from our comfort zones, and how we know how to win.

Sort of off topic. Has anyone started GOTM17 as Alexander. If you have and don't mind discussing some of your results, I think the dicussion might bear some fruit for this game as well. I have played the first 200 turns of that game, and I am surprised at some of the results.

Sort of off topic. Has anyone started GOTM17 as Alexander. If you have and don't mind discussing some of your results, I think the dicussion might bear some fruit for this game as well. I have played the first 200 turns of that game, and I am surprised at some of the results. I think it would be dangerous to discuss anything related to an ongoing GOTM outside of the official spoiler threads. Of course, it appears that AlanH is not going to be around to police that ... but I'm sure someone would object.

Perhaps more to the point would be the WOTM 7 experience with Ragnar ... I suffered in that game from too much delay in founding cities, and too much delay in going to war with Catherine (if memory serves).

dV

This line of thinking occurred to me today:

Suppose we had a PA with G in this game instead of permanent war. Would it make more sense for us to operate Ferrous, or for G to do it? I think unless he has ridiculously low maint, more sense for us to: less distance to capital, provides a resource we need, integrated with our core empire vs. an appendage to his.

I may have improved his economy by taking Kolhapur, given the distance from his capital and its isolation. In the near term, I don't see that it hurts him much. In the long run, we give it back to him, after we are done with it.

We are (in an absurd way) Gandhi's ally. It is in his best interest for us to be strong, or else how can we help him? He is too stupid to know this, so sometimes he does things that hurt his chances by hurting ours: attacking Cibola and founding Kolhapur. When he does something like that, we have to slap him in the face and say "stop that!"

Let's use the one advantage of slow play that we have: looking at other team's charts.

What is CRC doing? Fast score acceleration, then a sharp drop after 800 AD, with a fast recovery. Their culture dropped after 800 as well, and lately they have a huge culture drop while their score is rising! And their power is a continuous rise!!

Only way culture drops that fast is giving away old, big cities. Maybe one after 800, and maybe several after 1220. But not at 200.

Now look at Chokonuts. At about 200 AD, culture, power and score all drop. Unlike CRC, their recovery slope is not good. I think that they unexpectedly lost a city, and it appears to have set them back permanently. For us, losing the opportunity to settle Ferrous would be a similar loss.

So ... Pros of taking Kolhapur:

1. An additional city for us near our capital

2. An iron city

3. A production city: hills with two food resources

4. A coastal city

5. A buffer for our capital and our copper, to help keep it secure as we attack Khan.

Cons of taking Kolhapur:

1. More maint for us

2. We deprive Gandhi of its use for now (but this might be minimal in the short run, and later we give it back to him anyway).

3. Whatever I have not thought of.

If Ferrous helps us kill Khan quicker, then we can give cities to G quicker, and the early loss of Kohlapur is an investment in G having even greater power sooner! The more power we have, and the faster, the more and faster we can transfer it to G !!

So I hope that in the end, everyone will come to think "gee ... I'm glad we have Ferrous after all" ... and then I can show my face in public again ! :)

dV

[Short post]

IMHO we should focus on 2 points:
1. Forget about infrastructure in our cities, amass troops to get Khan's cities instead. Cats, cats, cats and a few spears might do the trick. Chariots to pillage metals/horses.
2. Research the seafaring techs, we might get on the move, as G looks a lot more uppity than we would expect.

So dV and I seem to be disagreeing often lately. And I must say, I disagree completely with the move to capture Ferrous. I don't see how this helps speed Gandhi into space at all.:confused: As I mentioned above, I think it helps us kill Khan faster, (swords, stable rear border), which lets us help G faster.

We can win a laurel with 1 city. This game is not about us. We need to build our forces and move south, away from Gandhi. Agree with moving south, but I think we need a good base, the iron, and a secure northern border to do it.

The game is not about us at the end, and we can win a laurel with 1 city AT THE END. But it IS about us in the middle: if some civ is beating G to space, we need to go put a stop to that. We may need to be his enforcer. So it is about our power at this stage of the game.

I don't think we want to make this a one city challenge. Do people ever do that in permanent war?


I may be missing something, but I just don't feel like we want to fight Gandhi at all.:sad: This one confuses me a bit ... do you mean not confront the two swords at Cibola? Let him take the city, or at least pillge all the mines? I can't see how that is not a recipe for disaster!

The rationale for saving Cibola is the same rationale for taking Ferrous: we need to thrive too! A small, temporary ding to G in exchange for a big boost to us is worth it, IMO.

Going forward, we are currently researching CS. Bureaucracy in Niaros would be a nice boost. Machinery next and we have our berserkers. If we run scientists in Cibola, we can bulb compass, then its on to Optics and caravels.

Once we road the gold again, happiness is OK. Cibola, Nidaros, and Florence can go whole hog on troop production (maybe another worker or two in between). OZ is coming on line, mostly commerce or GPers I think. Ferrous eventually produces troops as well. But as an early giveaway, no HE there, rather in Florence.

With this approach, maybe we kill off Khan, get caravels out, and even give G Cibola, Oz and Ferrous (and even Niaros?) by 1000 AD?

We might need to whip the cities down to 1 pop before giveaway, or G will have horrific motherland yearning problems. May need to simulate whether the whip unhappiness goes away with a new owner.

dV

IMHO we should focus on 2 points:
1. Forget about infrastructure in our cities, amass troops to get Khan's cities instead. Cats, cats, cats and a few spears might do the trick. Chariots to pillage metals/horses. Agree that Nidaros, Florence and Cibola have all the infrastructure they need (well, maybe forge in Florence). OZ and Ferrous have some infrastructure needs, of course.

Khan has iron now, or will soon, as he took that barb city in the east. We may want a mixed army ... axes, spears and cats (and eventualy swords?)

2. Research the seafaring techs, we might get on the move, as G looks a lot more uppity than we would expect. Before CS? I think bureacracy would be a huge help (faster techs, faster troops), and since Mach is needed for caravels anyway, then we get our berserkers.

It will be a while before we get to astronomy. Sooner or later we have to hold the line on G and fight him defensively (Ferrous was a defensive move IMO) until we can migrate.

And we can't effectively colonize unless we can build FP there right away. That means 8 cities and 6 courthouses. Mother country must be strong to colonize, until the colonies are strong.

So we have to defend a core empire of 8 cities in the current landmass until we have say 6 developed cities somewhere else. Maybe that means we hold the line at Florence, Old Sarai, and everything south, as the most aggressive giveaway strategy eventually.

Which means sooner or later, we have to defend against G in ernest while we migrate. It is a delicate balance.

dV

I think it would be dangerous to discuss anything related to an ongoing GOTM outside of the official spoiler threads. Of course, it appears that AlanH is not going to be around to police that ... but I'm sure someone would object.

Perhaps more to the point would be the WOTM 7 experience with Ragnar ... I suffered in that game from too much delay in founding cities, and too much delay in going to war with Catherine (if memory serves).

dV

I was pretty successful in that game. I tried to be very directed in my approach. This was after I had lost my second city to the barbs and took 2 tries to get it back.

This one confuses me a bit ... do you mean not confront the two swords at Cibola? Let him take the city, or at least pillge all the mines? I can't see how that is not a recipe for disaster!

The rationale for saving Cibola is the same rationale for taking Ferrous: we need to thrive too! A small, temporary ding to G in exchange for a big boost to us is worth it, IMO.

With this approach, maybe we kill off Khan, get caravels out, and even give G Cibola, Oz and Ferrous (and even Niaros?) by 1000 AD?

We might need to whip the cities down to 1 pop before giveaway, or G will have horrific motherland yearning problems. May need to simulate whether the whip unhappiness goes away with a new owner.

dV

Agree that Nidaros, Florence and Cibola have all the infrastructure they need (well, maybe forge in Florence). OZ and Ferrous have some infrastructure needs, of course.

Khan has iron now, or will soon, as he took that barb city in the east. We may want a mixed army ... axes, spears and cats (and eventualy swords?)

Before CS? I think bureacracy would be a huge help (faster techs, faster troops), and since Mach is needed for caravels anyway, then we get our berserkers.

It will be a while before we get to astronomy. Sooner or later we have to hold the line on G and fight him defensively (Ferrous was a defensive move IMO) until we can migrate.

And we can't effectively colonize unless we can build FP there right away. That means 8 cities and 6 courthouses. Mother country must be strong to colonize, until the colonies are strong.

So we have to defend a core empire of 8 cities in the current landmass until we have say 6 developed cities somewhere else. Maybe that means we hold the line at Florence, Old Sarai, and everything south, as the most aggressive giveaway strategy eventually.

Which means sooner or later, we have to defend against G in ernest while we migrate. It is a delicate balance.

dV

Of course we defend our core cities and resources, I just don't think we should try to hamper G's development. The faster we get off of this rock the better. I think we can build new Palace faster in the new world, maybe FP in Kahn's land to help balance commerce as we pull out. Right now I agree with C63 that we need to produce troops, and lots of them! Start working our way south.
On the subject of whipping down cities before give away. That is probably the best thing to do, unless we think that G would be smart enough to whip off angry pop for his own cultural buildings.

Of course we defend our core cities and resources, I just don't think we should try to hamper G's development. The faster we get off of this rock the better. I think we can build new Palace faster in the new world, maybe FP in Kahn's land to help balance commerce as we pull out. Right now I agree with C63 that we need to produce troops, and lots of them! Start working our way south. I agree with all of the above. Ferrous was not done to slow G's development (I suspect it was a trivial loss for him) but to secure us a resource (the iron) and some breathing room while we head south. If the iron were not there, I might well have left it alone.

I am curious what you would have suggested if we had founded Ferrous first, then G landed troops there. Abandon it, or defend it? Not a moot point, as this decision may face us in the near future!

Once we get it running, Ferrous could build troops for northern defense, while our other cities build the Khan assault. When we get a new source of iron, I'm happy to give G Ferrous back, and OZ too pretty early.

Palace automatically rebuilds in most populous city when capital falls, right? So maybe we get if for free in the New World. But I wonder if maint will just be too horrific in New World without FP there early. Shades of SGOTM 2?

On the subject of whipping down cities before give away. That is probably the best thing to do, unless we think that G would be smart enough to whip off angry pop for his own cultural buildings. That could probably be simulated: set it up in WB, play some turns, and go back to WB to see what G did!

In any case, using the pop to whip troops for us may be more useful that letting G use them, if we are still warring with others

dV

I am curious what you would have suggested if we had founded Ferrous first, then G landed troops there. Abandon it, or defend it? Not a moot point, as this decision may face us in the near future!


This will probably be the first city we give up, the only question will be when?

Palace automatically rebuilds in most populous city when capital falls, right? So maybe we get if for free in the New World. But I wonder if maint will just be too horrific in New World without FP there early. Shades of SGOTM 2?

What if we sail directly to an established capitol city. Capture it! Pop rush culture buildings to balance starvation and then build Palace right away.

Once we get it running, Ferrous could build troops for northern defense, while our other cities build the Khan assault. When we get a new source of iron, I'm happy to give G Ferrous back, and OZ too pretty early.

We need Galleons and Berserkers/Trebs/Pikes and then go go go! So I think we need to take Kahn out now. That is my concern about Ferrous, it is a long way to the front and getting longer with every victory. And we have to hold it and the resources around it from the attack that you and I both know Gandhi is already building troops for.

This will probably be the first city we give up, the only question will be when? I would say not until we have at least two of Khan's cities ... if we can hold it that long. If G brings such an overhwhelming horde that we can't hold Ferrous (they will have to come by boat), then you will be happy that Ferrous is the target and not Nidaros! That is part of the buying us time argument for taking Kolhapur.

If G does not attack well, then we hold it until we have made some iron troops, or even until we have iron elsewhere (in the southeast?)

What if we sail directly to an established capitol city. Capture it! Pop rush culture buildings to balance starvation and then build Palace right away. That could work, but I would still want to have 6 good cities in the motherland at that time ... give one away for each good city we establish in the New World ... and maybe six is too small? We do have to survive! The world will have mature civs when we arrive!

We could take a big city, whip all our other cities below the new world city size, let Nidaros fall, and bingo ... Palace in new world (unless it won't jump continents except as a last resort). Need FP in the homeland for that, as you suggested.

We need Galleons and Berserkers/Trebs/Pikes and then go go go! So I think we need to take Kahn out now. That is my concern about Ferrous, it is a long way to the front and getting longer with every victory. And we have to hold it and the resources around it from the attack that you and I both know Gandhi is already building troops for. Those troops are coming whether we own Ferrous or not. If they come for Ferrous, its a diversion and buys time for our core cities. We can always withdraw from Ferrous if that seems best.

If they come straight for Cibola, then Ferrous can build the defenders for the northwest frontier, we will need them!

Ferrous is all about helping us hold G at bay while we go for Khan. It is either a diversion or a source of troops. It frees up other cities to make troops for the south in the event G does come on strong.

And if G never comes, then troops from Ferrous can help in the south by two considerations: the trickle train, or the relay.

Trickle train: say Ferrous builds a unit evey 6 turns. Start marching to Florence. With each build, repeat. Once the first unit arrives in Florence, then evey 6 turns a Ferrous unit shows up in Florence. After the inital time for the first one to arrive, it is as if Ferrous was in Florence!

Relay: Unit in Ferrous marches to Nidaros. When it arrives a Nidaros unit moves south. When it gets to Florence, a Florence unit moves south. This effectively doubles unit movement on each city arrival.

Or we could research HBride and build Horse Archers in Ferrous, for a fast ride to the front.

I think that Ferrous will prove very useful to us ... one way or the other. We will see if the way things play out convinces you too! :D

dV

I think R1 is right now is the time to strike at Khan. I agree with conq I reckon spearman and catapults with ocasional axeman should be fine.
For ferrous are we building HE there? If so we don't need to bother with library but if we are giving it soon lets put the HE somewhere else. I personally think put the HE in Nidaros and lets egt those cats out now! None of this forge lets get troops out now.
My only other thought is to attack S first then go E leave his W city as a buffer to hopefully get Judaism.

Are we teching for caravels? Or for berserkers?

Questions for DV: HOw come all the axeman were promoted to cover?
I personally find a mixture of shock, cover and CR are the best way to go (even put shock and cover on the same unit works well), all of them seemed to get cover. CR is the most powerful promotion as 3 CR berserker will be very tough to beat. Just my thoughts.

I think R1 is right now is the time to strike at Khan. I agree with conq I reckon spearman and catapults with ocasional axeman should be fine.
For ferrous are we building HE there? If so we don't need to bother with library but if we are giving it soon lets put the HE somewhere else. I personally think put the HE in Nidaros and lets egt those cats out now! None of this forge lets get troops out now.
My only other thought is to attack S first then go E leave his W city as a buffer to hopefully get Judaism. Attack Khan next is fine with me. Likely we give away Ferrous soon, so no HE there I think. Library lets us work the iron after fat cross, but if early giveaway, then maybe Forge first. I we do hold it, it is a good production site.

I think HE in Florence. Good production potential, and we will give it away later than even Nidaros I think.

Are we teching for caravels? Or for berserkers? My idea is CS next for both a step toward berserkers and run Bureaucracy (hammer and commerce boost in Nidaros). Then everything else goes faster.

Questions for DV: HOw come all the axeman were promoted to cover?
I personally find a mixture of shock, cover and CR are the best way to go (even put shock and cover on the same unit works well), all of them seemed to get cover. CR is the most powerful promotion as 3 CR berserker will be very tough to beat. Just my thoughts. I think only two axemen in Ferrous have cover, and I goofed a bit as it should only be one. I so much expected to lose the first to the archer on a hill that I promoted two right off, should have promoted one and attacked. The third axe in Ferrous should be unpromoted, I think, as are the two entrenched in the Cibola hills (or maybe have shock?).

I normally put CR on axes for city assault, or shock to kill melee troops on defense of city or stack. But I have tried to follow Immac's advice in the old Flying V thread to leave things unpromoted until needed.

dV

The roster order is:

da_Vinci - just played
Jon Shaw - skipped
Conquistador 63 - UP NOW
g_storrow - on deck
Ronnie1 - in the hole
Immaculate - waiting

OK C63 ... do something good with Ferrous so I can be da_vindicated! :lol:

Might skip the library and chop a forge first ... then barrack and troops? But the iron has to be in our border to mine it, right?

I think we want to stay entrenched on the Cibola gold hills ... If G had landed 4 swords instead of two, he would own it now!

Be sure to re-road gold in Cibola ... that is why we have red faces (I knew I didn't whip THAT much! :lol: ) Worker on pigs gets back fast, and I think g_s invested some turns in a road due W, so might finish in 1 or 2. Might make troops rather than the worker up now (was due to red face).

Khan has iron now ... took the east barb city.

Might whip a forge in Florence when pop is big enough ... build troops until then.

There is a Khan stack south of Florence ... seems to be moving east, but that is why the spear is moving from Nidaros to Florence.

Also, G has two triremes and a galley east of Ferrous (the galley is the one that dropped of the settler and the archer, so is empty I think).

We do have a settler available, so if you take Old Sarai, you could raze it and found 1 West to get the gold too (and no motherland yearning). Or keep it for its infrastructure ... are you familiar with how to see what is built in Khan's cities?

Research ... continue CS, or something else?

This is perhaps the critical point in the game ... we are fighting a two-front war. Defensive in the north, offensive in the south. With only a five city empire (only four without Ferrous), it could be a challenge. Chokonuts may have fallen victim to that challenge, so we must tread with care!

dV

I gave a look at the game, and I have to admit the situation does not look good. I don't see much to do in a 10 turns set.
I understand your concerns about G setting a foothold in the north, but now our troops are spread too thinly, and it is hard to defend north and attack south at the same time. Our hammer output is too low, troops take way too long to build. :/

I'd like to hear some input from R1 and the other teammates before moving on. g_s suggests HE in Nidaros, that might make sense, although it will delay the start of troop production for some time there.

I don't see the advantage of settling another city right now, we don't have sufficient workers to develop it neither enough troops to defend it. What should we do with the settler? Also, if we manage to capture cities, I tend to keep them. We will want to eliminate K, so the motherland whining won't happen in the future. But then again, this is beginning to sound like just wishful thinking. :(

Tech: CS is 20something turns away, I tend to continue on it as we lack other good options. p.s. just for the record I wouldn't have lightbulbed currency - too cheap and rather useless at this point. In those ocasions I tend to save the GP for later use.

I gave a look at the game, and I have to admit the situation does not look good. I don't see much to do in a 10 turns set.
I understand your concerns about G setting a foothold in the north, but now our troops are spread too thinly, and it is hard to defend north and attack south at the same time. Our hammer output is too low, troops take way too long to build. :/ It seems we are changing our minds pretty fast in this game. Looking back at posts 251, 254 adn 255 (page 13) and then 265 and 269 it would appear that there was a consensus for at least one city in the north. Now we have it, but wish we didn't? :confused: :crazyeye:

Or maybe not everyone weighed in on that?

I think we are faced with defending north with or without Ferrous (G has his eye on Cibola).

I suppose one option is to leave one defender in Ferrous (or none), and not worry if we lose it. That would solve the troops spread too thin issue.

But if we aren't defending Ferrous, then we are then probably defending Nidaros, so the troops are still not in Mongolia.

Ferrous may be our best hammer location eventually. So keeping it may be the answer to our hammer shortage. My thought is that eventually, Ferrous helps defend the North, and other cities produce troops for the south. It has lots of forest to chop!

So I guess one key question is "Ferrous: use it or lose it?"

I'd like to hear some input from R1 and the other teammates before moving on. g_s suggests HE in Nidaros, that might make sense, although it will delay the start of troop production for some time there. As we eventually fall back from G, Nidaros may go before Florence. And eventually, more hammers in Florence? Why not HE there? There are three forests that chop into Florence, I think. I can live with it in Nidaros though.

I don't see the advantage of settling another city right now, we don't have sufficient workers to develop it neither enough troops to defend it. What should we do with the settler? Also, if we manage to capture cities, I tend to keep them. We will want to eliminate K, so the motherland whining won't happen in the future. But then again, this is beginning to sound like just wishful thinking. :( The settler was part of the settle 1 in the north idea, became superfluous when we captured one there. Only use in near term is resettling Old Sarai to get gold and food both. But maybe we'd rather keep Old Sarai, as you say.

With forests to chop in Ferrous and Florence, maybe one more pair of workers is a good idea (if we follow the patience plan below).

Tech: CS is 20something turns away, I tend to continue on it as we lack other good options. p.s. just for the record I wouldn't have lightbulbed currency - too cheap and rather useless at this point. In those ocasions I tend to save the GP for later use. Well, R1 had mentioned that in 263, but maybe after preisthood to open up CoL, didn't need it. I did not see another use for GM in near term (were we thinking of using 2 on a GAge?), figured the extra trade routes would be a help.

Research will be better after we road the gold and get rid of red faces in Nidaros and Cibola.

Here is a thought ... let's be just a bit patient ... research CS, run bureacracy. Get GS in Cibola to bulb machinery. With the iron in Ferrous, now we can go after Khan with berserkers. Build our cat army while we wait. Put a forge in Ferrous and Florence when we can whip or chop them. Mine hills in Ferrous, and now we have hammers. Hold off on Khan while we build some power.

Or go for Khan with less power ... depends a lot on how offensive G is in the next say 20 turns.

In either case, the next 10 or so turns may run the same ... and if we are mostly in a buildup mode, why just 10 at a time? We need to move this along a bit faster, so maybe more per set for a while? I think the last two have run 15 anyway (last one shouldn't have :sad: )

As potentially bleak as this might look, are we that far away from where other teams are? In power and score? I don't think so ... so let's not despair too soon! :) I follow CRC, Peanut, Xteam, Murky Waters, and One Short Straw on the charts. Scorewise, we are near Xteam and Peanut. Powerwise we are right with CRC and One Short Straw. CRC and Xteam have gone on to do well. Maybe that means G is not so much of a pest as we fear right now.

So, if we can get both CS (res) and Mach (bulb) in 20 turns, lets make two more workers, build cats (after finishing current foot), build HE, bring OZ and Ferrous online and mine Florence, then a berserker/cat assault on Kahn in about 25 to 30 turns? HE in Florence is nice as it is closer to the front.

dV

The wage war in 25 turns after cat buildup and getting berserkers sounds . Good but we need to build noting but troops and HE.

DV why mention building another 2 workers? I am assumnig we will betaking some of Khans workers. I think we either take the mongols or we struggle big time.

The wage war in 25 turns after cat buildup and getting berserkers sounds . Good but we need to build noting but troops and HE.

DV why mention building another 2 workers? I am assumnig we will betaking some of Khans workers. I think we either take the mongols or we struggle big time. Thought is that if we are going wait to build to berserkers and then attack, we have sugar to farm in OZ, five or more forests to chop and five or so hills to mine in Ferrous (if we keep it), three forests to chop for Florence, with a hill to mine and another sugar to farm, and three or four forests to chop in Nidaros, and some gold roads and a mine to build in Cibola.

If we have a plan to do all of that without more workers, that is fine, but seems that the sooner we can chop forges and HE, the faster we make troops in the long run, and worth the investment. We need all this done BEFORE we attack Khan.

Yes, hammers are scarce. Our hammers are in our trees, and in our whip. So we need to max food production, and go chopping, to get the hammers we need.



Addendum: With Colossus and G Lib we have created a commerce and science infrasturcture. Lets run that a few turns while we develop our military/hammer infrastructure (forges, HE, mines) in preparation for the Khan offensive. By the time berserkers are available, our troop production capacity should be looking better (HE, bureacracy). We will have a qualitative troop superiority over Khan, which will minimize our losses. We can bring local numeric superiority to the first attack, then continued production and low losses will lead to global numeric superiority against Khan.

Alternative is to go after Khan right away (or at least before berserkers). In terms of the war with Khan, does waiting help us more than him? I think waiting is better for us.

I agree that this game is playing out differently than we might typically play. Due to limited good city sites for us, and G's insane resources in Delhi. Feels like we are late going on the offensive.

But let's not war too soon here just because we would be warring sooner in another game. Let's base it on the current position of this game. We have untapped (as yet) production potential that we might want to bring online before we go after Khan. If we go later when we are more prepared, we might just end up killing him faster in the long run.

That being said, if a clear plan for war before berserkers looks feasible, I won't object.

dV

I believe we are on the right track in many ways. We want to leave well developed cities for Gandhi to use. We need to stay strong militarily. So we build the best troops we can at the moment to serve our long term goals. IMO those are Cats and a few Spears right now, and a huge pile of Berserkers when we can. If we still intend on leaving this entire landmass to Gandhi, then we need to beeline for Astronomy as soon as we have Berserkers. In the GOTM where we played as the Vikings, I did most of my damage with Berserkers and finished with Grenadiers and Rifles. I know we need to survive much deeper into the game than a Domination win, but I believe that this basic strategy will at least get us into the modern age.
Good Luck C63!!

Shocking news! Gandhi just unloaded 4 swords next to Cibola! :eek: We have only a couple axemen defending. :cry: I just upgraded them to shock, but it is obviously a time for the war council to reunite, after a 12-turn session. A cat can be whipped there.

Until there this was basically a recovery/rebuild turnset. A defending trirreme was killed defending (bad luck). CS was around the corner with 100% research all the way - thanks for the gold, Khan! Enjoy Poly. Some scouting shows Khan has only keshiks/archers. No iron being worked. HE is almost ready in Nidaros. If we'll have to play OCC, should make sense building it there. :rolleyes:

Ferrous is completely passive. No way I'd risk exposing a worker there when Gandhi has 4 trirremes around and could unload a galley any moment. I regret not sending its defenders to Cibola earlier in my turn.

Upload log
Here is your Session Turn Log from 200 AD to 380 AD:


Turn 181, 215 AD: khan offers 290 for Poly, I accept
Turn 181, 215 AD: Ferdinand de Lesseps (Great Engineer) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 182, 230 AD: Chichen Itza has been built in a far away land!

Turn 183, 245 AD: Gypsy Kings's Chariot (4.00) vs Barbarian's Warrior (2.50)
Turn 183, 245 AD: Combat Odds: 95.6%
Turn 183, 245 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 183, 245 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 183, 245 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 183, 245 AD: Gypsy Kings's Chariot is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 183, 245 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 183, 245 AD: Gypsy Kings's Chariot is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 183, 245 AD: Gypsy Kings's Chariot is hit for 15 (55/100HP)
Turn 183, 245 AD: Gypsy Kings's Chariot is hit for 15 (40/100HP)
Turn 183, 245 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 183, 245 AD: Gypsy Kings's Chariot has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 183, 245 AD: The Hanging Gardens has been built in a far away land!

Turn 184, 260 AD: traded gems for 4g with Khan
Turn 184, 260 AD: Gandhi's Trireme (2.20) vs Gypsy Kings's Trireme (2.20)
Turn 184, 260 AD: Combat Odds: 50.0%
Turn 184, 260 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 184, 260 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 184, 260 AD: Gypsy Kings's Trireme is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 184, 260 AD: Gandhi's Trireme is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 184, 260 AD: Gypsy Kings's Trireme is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 184, 260 AD: Gandhi's Trireme is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 184, 260 AD: Gypsy Kings's Trireme is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 184, 260 AD: Gandhi's Trireme is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 184, 260 AD: Gypsy Kings's Trireme is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 184, 260 AD: Gypsy Kings's Trireme is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 184, 260 AD: Gandhi's Trireme has defeated Gypsy Kings's Trireme!
Turn 184, 260 AD: Gandhi adopts Vassalage!

Turn 188, 320 AD: The enemy has been spotted near OZ!

Turn 189, 335 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Ferrous!
Turn 189, 335 AD: Nidaros's cultural boundary is about to expand.

Turn 190, 350 AD: The enemy has been spotted near OZ!
Turn 190, 350 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Ferrous!
Turn 190, 350 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 44 ? for Nidaros.
Turn 190, 350 AD: The borders of Nidaros have expanded!
Turn 190, 350 AD: Nidaros will grow to size 9 on the next turn
Turn 190, 350 AD: Nidaros will become unhealthy on the next turn
Turn 190, 350 AD: Nidaros will become unhappy on the next turn
Turn 190, 350 AD: OZ has grown to size 3
Turn 190, 350 AD: Ferrous will grow to size 2 on the next turn

Turn 191, 365 AD: The enemy has been spotted near OZ!
Turn 191, 365 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Ferrous!
Turn 191, 365 AD: Cibola will grow to size 6 on the next turn
Turn 191, 365 AD: Cibola will become unhealthy on the next turn
Turn 191, 365 AD: Ferrous has grown to size 2
Turn 191, 365 AD: Genghis Khan converts to Judaism!

Turn 192, 380 AD: The enemy has been spotted near OZ!
Turn 192, 380 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Cibola!

Autolog:
New entries----------------------------<br>
<b><u>Turn 180 (200 AD)</b></u><br>
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<b><u>Turn 181 (215 AD)</b></u><br>
<b>User comment:</b> khan offers 290 for Poly, I accept<br>
<span style="color: Red">Axeman promoted: Shock</span><br>
<span style="color: RoyalBlue">Florence grows: 4</span><br>
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<b><u>Turn 182 (230 AD)</b></u><br>
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<b><u>Turn 183 (245 AD)</b></u><br>
<span style="color: Red">Chariot defeats (1.60/4): Barbarian Warrior</span><br>
<span style="color: RoyalBlue">Nidaros grows: 7</span><br>
<span style="color: Purple">Nidaros finishes: Spearman</span><br>
<br>
<b><u>Turn 184 (260 AD)</b></u><br>
<span style="color: Purple">Nidaros begins: Catapult</span><br>
<b>User comment:</b> traded gems for 4g with Khan<br>
<span style="color: Purple">Nidaros begins: Heroic Epic</span><br>
<span style="color: Purple">Florence finishes: Axeman</span><br>
<span style="color: Red">Trireme loses to: Indian Trireme (0.80/2)</span><br>
<br>
<b><u>Turn 185 (275 AD)</b></u><br>
<span style="color: Purple">Florence begins: Catapult</span><br>
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<b><u>Turn 186 (290 AD)</b></u><br>
<span style="color: RoyalBlue">Nidaros grows: 8</span><br>
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<b><u>Turn 187 (305 AD)</b></u><br>
<span style="color: Purple">Cibola finishes: Worker</span><br>
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<b><u>Turn 188 (320 AD)</b></u><br>
<span style="color: Purple">Cibola begins: Catapult</span><br>
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<b><u>Turn 189 (335 AD)</b></u><br>
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<b><u>Turn 190 (350 AD)</b></u><br>
<span style="color: RoyalBlue">Nidaros's borders expand</span><br>
<span style="color: RoyalBlue">OZ grows: 3</span><br>
<br>
<b><u>Turn 191 (365 AD)</b></u><br>
<span style="color: RoyalBlue">Ferrous grows: 2</span><br>
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<b><u>Turn 192 (380 AD)</b></u><br>
<span style="color: Red">Axeman promoted: Shock</span><br>
<span style="color: Red">Axeman promoted: Shock</span><br>
<span style="color: Red">Axeman promoted: Shock</span><br>

I am away from my game computer until Sat or Sun. Could someone please upload a screenshot or 2 of our tacticle situation?

The roster order is:

da_Vinci - waiting
Jon Shaw - skipped
Conquistador 63 - just played
g_storrow - UP NOW
Ronnie1 - on deck
Immaculate - in the hole

How many and what type of troops can we get to Cibola in 1-2 turns?

My first thought is to move the chariots in OZ and Florence to Cibola ... OZ might get there now. Whip the cat, then cat any sword stack next turn and use the axes to finish them off. By then the chariots are in the city for defense. We will lose some mines again, it seems.

I think when we clean the swords out, we will have to go back to entrenching on the two Gold hills NW and N ... doesn't attack direct from the ship incur a 50% penalty (unless amphib promotion)?

Looks like we have enough visibilty in Ferrous to see G' galley coming, so I think we could send a worker up there. At least to connect a road ... no berserkers unless we get that iron up! OZ is also going nowhere fast ... I think we need to farm the river ruins to speed pop to rush that library.

We may be coming out of the doldrums now that CS and bureaucracy are near. GS in 11 turns for machinery.

dV

Screenshot for R1

no berserkers unless we get that iron up!

I believe we can build Berserkers with copper!

I believe we can build Berserkers with copper! Turns out you are right ... I think that since crossbows and pike need iron, I always thought the maces did too! (or did that change in Warlords?) That is one reason why I thought Ferrrous was important, that we needed iron for berserkers. Since we don't , no wonder everyone is kicking me for taking it!

dV

Thanks for screen dV!

I think we do as dV suggests and move the Chariots into Cibola ASAP. The Axe south of Nidaros needs to move ASAP as well. Keep the Axes in Cibola entrenched for defense until we have enough troops to mount a counter attack. Whip the Cat and follow with an Axe. Axes from Nidaros as soon as HE is complete. I am starting to feel like we need to build nothing but troops. Between defending from G and trying to go on the offensive in the south, we are stretched pretty thin.

EDIT: @dV for not reading his civilpedia!:spank: But no reason to :deadhorse:

EDIT 2: It looks like Cibola is ready to grow, how soon?

Just a short note to say, got it will post some comments later today regarding what I plan to achieve. Are we playing 15 turns or until a significant now?

Just a short note to say after HE i plan to build nothing but troops!

I have to ask for a skip until further notice.
Thanks.
I think i sort of bit off more then i could swallow when i comitted to this in terms of free time. I haven't really even been able to read the posts.

@ Imac, I'll put you in the reserve category until we hear from you.

@ gs, Why don't you play through T205, try to get us back to an easy # to remember. But remember also, if something treacherous or completely unexpected happens, you can always play a partial turnset and get some feedback before continuing. This is a critical time for us, if we were to lose 1 of our core cities, or even a significant number of troops, we could be in serious trouble.

Random thoughts:
I'm not good at figuring out combat odds, but I think we have a reasonable chance of surviving the attack. Cibola is on a hill, has 40% culture, shock axes +75% vs swords, +25% fortify bonus. Let's just pray for the RNG gods. The axe S of Nidaros is already on its way (2 turns). The chariots don't help much defending but can finish a wounded attacker. Of course whip cat, maybe even attack the attacking stack next turn (for splash damage) if they wait to pillage instead of attacking city. Too bad the gold mines will be most likely pillaged again.

Do you think we have enough workforce to develop Ferrous any soon? It is a nice spot, serves as a buffer, etc etc... but I think it is pretty much a lost cause, but if someone proves me wrong, I'll be very happy.

Also, might sound obvious, but remember convert to Bureaucracy after HE is ready in Nidaros, which is at unhappy limit for a few more turns. If we manage to work the plain hill mines to N (under construction), I think it can produce 1 troop/turn.

The spears/chariots/cats will be pretty useless in defense vs Gandhi, I suggest using them in offense after 3/4 CR cats are ready.

Random thoughts:
I'm not good at figuring out combat odds, but I think we have a reasonable chance of surviving the attack. Cibola is on a hill, has 40% culture, shock axes +75% vs swords, +25% fortify bonus. Let's just pray for the RNG gods. The axe S of Nidaros is already on its way (2 turns). The chariots don't help much defending but can finish a wounded attacker. Of course whip cat, maybe even attack the attacking stack next turn (for splash damage) if they wait to pillage instead of attacking city. Too bad the gold mines will be most likely pillaged again. Need to have 4 defenders in Cibola before we hit end turn. If G attacks city, first two swords die no question. But do the next two swords kill the wounded axes? If so need another unit in place or the city falls !! :eek: :eek: :eek:

Plus, is there a second wave coming? That is why I'd whip the cat and put both chariots in motion.

G is likely to pillage road and mine NW and move 1 each to the N and W hills. Do we attack a sword on a hill? If we win, it saves the mine (worked in my turnset ... what are the odds?) Sheer numbers of defenders in Cibola, even if we lose them, allows the axes to counterattack the swords. Five defenders in Cibola (two axes, two chariots and the cat) next turn allows both axes to go after swords on the N and W hills to save the mines I think ... if we kill two, the other two can't take the city even if they each win their combat with three inside.

But if the first axe counterattack fails, might need to abort the second one.

Do you think we have enough workforce to develop Ferrous any soon? It is a nice spot, serves as a buffer, etc etc... but I think it is pretty much a lost cause, but if someone proves me wrong, I'll be very happy. Cibola is closer to G than Ferrous, so maybe he goes for that first by his programming? If so the forests in Ferrous should allow fast development (chop a forge first perhaps). It has enough hills and food to be a good hammer city.

Also, might sound obvious, but remember convert to Bureaucracy after HE is ready in Nidaros, which is at unhappy limit for a few more turns. If we manage to work the plain hill mines to N (under construction), I think it can produce 1 troop/turn. That should cheer us up! ;)

The spears/chariots/cats will be pretty useless in defense vs Gandhi, I suggest using them in offense after 3/4 CR cats are ready. I would move the chariots to Cibola as a precaution (since they are fast), but use them only as a last resort or in mopping up. Send them back when Cibola is stabilized. The spears are too slow to help so leave them south, to keep a eye on Khan's Keshiks.

I'd like to see a farm in OZ, won't get that library unless we whip it. If we don't get OZ and Ferrous productive then we are trying to run with only 3 cities! Let's see if we can make the most of what we've got!

dV

@ g_s: Having fought G's swords in our hills before, here is what I recommend:

The chariot in Oz goes into Cibola NOW. The chariot in Florence runs up the road to Cibola, as on the map. Whip chariot in Cibola ... it arrives before G's turn.

G sees two axes, a chariot, a cat, 40% bonus. I wish he would attack, and impale on our axes. More likely, pillages road and mine NW, and moves one sword to the W, one to the N mine.

Our turn. Move Florence chariot into Cibola. Hopefully, the axe is moving NW to Cibola too (G may ship in more troops) and the axe from Ferrous is coming soon. Now we have 5 defenders in Cibola, 4 attackers. Send one axe after one sword on a mine. 1.85*5 outdoes 1.35*6 by 9.25 vs 8.1.

If we win that (we should), send the second axe after the other sword threatening our mines. We should win that too.

If we lose the first, I think we need to keep the second axe in city for defense, depends on how hurt the first attacked sword is.

I would not cat a stack of two swords on the hill, as 5 vs 8.1 is pretty long odds.

That general approach cleared out G's swords the first time.

Good luck on the battlefield, g_s! :goodjob:

dV

how can you tell what turn it is without going to the autolog all the time?

how can you tell what turn it is without going to the autolog all the time? Go into the HOF 2 tab under options menu. Check the box that says "clock turn text" Below that, leave the box that says "First Turn 1" UNCHECKED. Below that, check the box that says "Max Turns"

Now, where your year indicator is in upper right, it now should say (192/660) for the latest save, which is current turn (actually the number of turns completed ... current turn is 193) and total turns in the game.

Hope that helps.

dV

@ gs, Why don't you play through T205, try to get us back to an easy # to remember. But remember also, if something treacherous or completely unexpected happens, you can always play a partial turnset and get some feedback before continuing. This is a critical time for us, if we were to lose 1 of our core cities, or even a significant number of troops, we could be in serious trouble.

What year is this T205?

Just got some jobs to do.

Killed all swordsman lost 1 axe. Got a Great general any ideas?

We are 4 turns away from GS or GE 4%.

That is about. Sent a worker up north for sheep then corn. doing sheep at moment.
Aprt from thtat it was about it.
move the spearman to on a hill for better defense and brought 1 axeman down from ferrous to major cities.
Started farm near OZ. keeping out ouf for galley but just trireme at moment.
Everyone else is either catapult or library.
whipped catapult in cibola for defnse as well.

Here is your Session Turn Log from 380 AD to 500 AD:


Turn 193, 395 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman (5.50) vs Gandhi's Swordsman (4.61)
Turn 193, 395 AD: Combat Odds: 72.8%
Turn 193, 395 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 193, 395 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 193, 395 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 193, 395 AD: (Combat: -75%)
Turn 193, 395 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 193, 395 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 193, 395 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 193, 395 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 193, 395 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 193, 395 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 193, 395 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 193, 395 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 193, 395 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 193, 395 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 193, 395 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman has defeated Gypsy Kings's Axeman!
Turn 193, 395 AD: Gypsy Kings's Chariot (5.20) vs Gandhi's Swordsman (1.39)
Turn 193, 395 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 193, 395 AD: (Extra Combat: -30%)
Turn 193, 395 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 193, 395 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 193, 395 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 193, 395 AD: Gypsy Kings's Chariot has defeated Gandhi's Swordsman!

Turn 194, 410 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman (5.50) vs Gandhi's Swordsman (4.61)
Turn 194, 410 AD: Combat Odds: 72.8%
Turn 194, 410 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 194, 410 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 194, 410 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 194, 410 AD: (Combat: -75%)
Turn 194, 410 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 194, 410 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 194, 410 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 194, 410 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 194, 410 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 194, 410 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 194, 410 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 194, 410 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 194, 410 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman has defeated Gandhi's Swordsman!
Turn 194, 410 AD: You have discovered Civil Service!

Turn 195, 425 AD: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 195, 425 AD: Gypsy Kings adopts Bureaucracy!
Turn 195, 425 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman (5.50) vs Gandhi's Swordsman (3.42)
Turn 195, 425 AD: Combat Odds: 95.7%
Turn 195, 425 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 195, 425 AD: (Combat: -75%)
Turn 195, 425 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 195, 425 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 195, 425 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 195, 425 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 195, 425 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman is hit for 15 (55/100HP)
Turn 195, 425 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman is hit for 15 (40/100HP)
Turn 195, 425 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 195, 425 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman is hit for 15 (25/100HP)
Turn 195, 425 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 195, 425 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman has defeated Gandhi's Swordsman!
Turn 195, 425 AD: George Patton (Great General) has been born in Cibola (Gypsy Kings)!
Turn 195, 425 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman (5.50) vs Gandhi's Swordsman (4.00)
Turn 195, 425 AD: Combat Odds: 79.7%
Turn 195, 425 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 195, 425 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 195, 425 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 195, 425 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 195, 425 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 195, 425 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 195, 425 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 195, 425 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 195, 425 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 195, 425 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 195, 425 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman is hit for 17 (15/100HP)
Turn 195, 425 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 195, 425 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman has defeated Gandhi's Swordsman!
Turn 195, 425 AD: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.

Turn 196, 440 AD: Vincent van Gogh (Great Artist) has been born in Delhi (Gandhi)!

Turn 197, 455 AD: The enemy has been spotted near OZ!
Turn 197, 455 AD: Antony van Leeuwenhoek (Great Scientist) has been born in Delhi (Gandhi)!

Turn 198, 470 AD: The enemy has been spotted near OZ!
Turn 198, 470 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Ferrous!
Turn 198, 470 AD: Taoism has been founded in Calcutta!

Turn 199, 485 AD: The enemy has been spotted near OZ!
Turn 199, 485 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Ferrous!
Turn 199, 485 AD: Cibola will grow to size 6 on the next turn
Turn 199, 485 AD: Cibola will become unhealthy on the next turn

Turn 200, 500 AD: The enemy has been spotted near OZ!
Turn 200, 500 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Ferrous!

Good Job gs!:goodjob:

The roster order is:

da_Vinci - on deck
Jon Shaw - in the hole
Conquistador 63 - waiting
g_storrow - just played
Ronnie1 - UP NOW I got it! Will play Sat or Sun

Immaculate - in reserve until further notice

Nice fighting g_s !! :goodjob: YOU are our great general of the day! :D

I think if HE is in Nidaros, lets put a Military academy there to super promote the troops! Use our great general for that seems like best use to me.

How many mines did we loose to G's swords?

How close are we to the GS for Machinery? If we get the GE instead, what do we do with him?

Are we close to attacking Old Sarai? If so, raze or keep?

dV

Addendum: I like our position. I think we could use one more worker ... maybe steal that one from Khan? The have three pairs working in Ferrous, OZ and Florence (we could chop that Forge in Florence).

In Nidaros, if we work the mine instead of the coast, we take a turn off the cat.

Old Sarai has barracks, granary and library built so far. I say raze it, rebuild it to get gold and corn. After we give Cibola to G, we will want gold for happiness. And, if we have bitten off more than we can chew, and have to retreat, he doesn't get the mature city back.

Althought we can mine the gold after a second border pop if we keep it ... OK I can go either way.

I think this game is finally going to get to be fun!

dV

we lost 1 mine 2 roads.

We cant get military academy until we research education
So do we attach it to 1 unit probably bersker or maybe two of them to get CR3 troops. or do we add it to a city prob nidaros for +2 exp per troop? or wait fro education.

we lost 1 mine 2 roads.

We cant get military academy until we research a certain tech cant remember which one but I dont think we have it yet.

So do we attach it to 1 unit probably bersker or maybe two of them to get CR3 troops. or do we add it to a city prob nidaros for +2 exp per troop? or wait or troop building? You are right, Miltary Academy takes education. I was thinking of Military Instructor and had the wrong name.

If we attach him to a stack of maybe three axes, the one we attach to will get a no cost upgrade to berserker. If we stop science for a few turns, we could then upgrade the other highly promoted troops.

So ... do we want a core of elite troops, or do we want a little more experience for every unit? If the Instructor means that every unit out of Nidaros starts with the free combat I and TWO promotions, that might be best. If not, maybe the warlord option.

dV

I would favor the Great Instructor. I think in the long run, more promoted troops will be of benefit over a few highly promoted troops.

I would favor the Great Instructor. I think in the long run, more promoted troops will be of benefit over a few highly promoted troops. I am fine with that ... in fact I was leaning in that direction.

Not a lot of advice for this next set ... keep the Atlantic wall up at Saint-Lo ... er ... I mean Cibola; work mine in Nidaros takes a turn off units I think; maybe chop or rush a forge in Florence.

Try to get OZ and Ferrous up and running ... maybe a worker pair in each ... get libraries chopped or whipped.

Bulb Machinery, make and move troops south, steal a worker and go get Old Sarai when ready.

Raze it or keep it? C63 favors keep I think. I would love to have the gold and the corn, and we do have that settler ... but then we give up the barracks, granary and lib, and moving it means waiting for a culture pop to work the corn. I can live with either choice. It does have some good hamlets, so maybe keep is the better choice.

If we do keep, we could use the settler to eventually found on the plains south of the horses. Farm the grassland to work the gold after fat cross. Call it Palomino (golden horse). It also has forrests to chop Then Palomino, Old Sarai, and Florence represent a second line of defense as we withdraw from our landmass to boost G.

dV

So I'm 4 turns in and we got a GS, which will let us lightbulb Paper! It is 16 turns to Machinery @ 60% Science, all we can afford right now. We will be going at Kahn with Cats, Axes and Spears. There are 4 Keshicks and 2 Archers visible outside Old Sarai. I don't think I'll have enough troops in place to attack before the end of my turn, but it's possible. The real question is what to do with GS? Suggestions please! I favor saving him to lightbulb Optics after we get Machinery.

Raze it or keep it? C63 favors keep I think. I would love to have the gold and the corn, and we do have that settler ... but then we give up the barracks, granary and lib, and moving it means waiting for a culture pop to work the corn. I can live with either choice. It does have some good hamlets, so maybe keep is the better choice.

All of the buildings have a certain probability of being razed on capture, so just because they are there now doesn't mean they will still be there after the attack. I don't think you can get a close enough view to see them before you have to make the raze/keep decision. I am favoring razing it.

EDIT: I played 1 more turn and then a settler and Keshik showed up W of Old Sarai. So I decided to just up load the file so