Welcome to your C_IV Warlords SGOTM 4 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

The Game
This Monarch difficulty game is on a Standard size, Gyathaar-special, fractal map, at Epic speed, against 7 rivals including India. All victory conditions are enabled except Diplomatic, but the laurels for this contest will be awarded to the teams who achieve the fastest Space defeat by Gandhi.

Versions
This game will be played in Warlords Version 2.08 only.

It will be played using the current version of the HoF Mod. This is version 2.08.003 for Windows. There are insufficient Mac players to form a Mac team. so it will be played in Windows only.

If later versions of Warlords or the HoF Mod are released they cannot be used for this game.

Your start file will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php) at midnight, server local time, at the start of February 23.

Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm4_start_small.jpg (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm4_start_large.jpg)

Map Parameters
Playable Leader/Civ - Ragnar of The Vikings
Rivals - 7 civs including Gandhi (who is locked in war with Ragnar)
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Monarch
Landform - Fractal, cylindrical, medium sea level, temperate
Game Speed - Epic
Diplomatic Victory Disabled
All other settings are defaults

Notes

Please visit the C-IV Warlords SGOTM reference thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208462) to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.

Warlords v.2.08 is supported for this SGOTM. No other versions can be used, and you will have to stick with the same version throughout the game.

Teams will compete for up to four awards - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher.

Awards will be given to teams who achieve Space defeats to India in the least turns.

All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

Please enjoy the game :)

And so begins the Third Dynasty of the immortal line of the Gypsy Kings.

King Conquistador the 63rd and King Ronnie the First are reunited with their long lost brother, King Jon of the Shaw. King Jon had gone off to explore the world of the Warlords, hiding his royalty and posing as a commoner, to learn the ways of this new land. He now returns to Gypsalia, full of the knowledge and skills needed for the dynasty to prosper amongst the Warlords.

Prince da_Vinci is in the war bunker of the Pentagram, in our capital Tarantella. He has begun to draft the first outline of a grand strategy to meet our first Warlords challenge: to defend and nurture the Indian empire in spite of itself (and its unfounded hatred of us), and see it to a successful spacecraft launch.

Some of our other fellow warriors are not yet ready to fight in the land of the Warlords. But as always, other brave soldiers come forth to do battle with us. g_storrow and Immaculate have agreed to join the royal court, even as they complete their battles in another land. They are eager to partake of the tight unity of the ruling house of Gypsalia.

So let each warrior boldly strike sword to shield to announce their presence and preparedness for battle!

Clang! Prince da_Vinci is ready!

Checking in! Welcome back Jon, and welcome aboard g_storrow and Immaculate!

Nice Prologue dV!! :cool:

Clank, I'm here.

Hi g_storrow and Immaculate, I'm considering my keystroke saver nickname options for the 2 of you. If you have something you're comfortable with, let me know. Welcome back Jon!

First discussions will be around settling location and begin immediately.

Power to the Kings!!

I just glanced at the starting pic. Start on a plains hill, 3 food resources, at least 7 forests in the fat cross, 4 other hills to mine. You'll have to work hard to convince me to move!

Edit: dV says that g_storrow is ranked 60 in the world rankings, since I'm not even on the list, I'm looking forward to learning something special from the new King!!:D

Edit: dV says that g_storrow is ranked 60 in the world rankings, since I'm not even on the list, I'm looking forward to learning something special from the new King!!:D R1, you are 106 on the score list, C63 is 22, g_storrow is 76, I am 130.

On the speed list, g_storrow is 60, C63 is 14, R1 is 117, and I am ... oh ... bad ... 265 (too many losses ... no points for speed then)

So R1, how do you figure you are not on the list? Maybe you just don't know where to look?

dV

I am sorry to inform you all my good results were on vanilla, I have only owned warlords for a little time and couldn't even win WOTM5 much to my embarrassment. Hoping for a lot better on WOTM6. Just checking in, Immaculate is away and want be back for a few more days at least.

First decision is whether we move scout SW or NW, NW or NW, SW ?

I reckon we go SW onto the hill with the scout I reckon we settle in place unless there is something special.
I am unsure of the techs we are starting with? But If we have fishing I think we start with workboat.

Does anyone know what Landform - Fractal, cylindrical, not entirely sure might have a go on a map like that.

welcome g_storrow! I am sorry to inform you all my good results were on vanilla, I have only owned warlords for a little time and couldn't even win WOTM5 much to my embarrassment. Hoping for a lot better on WOTM6. Just checking in, Immaculate is away and want be back for a few more days at least. All of us have our scores on vanilla, although I can't say that Warlords seems that much different, except that perhaps it plays one level smarter (monarch plays a bit more like emperor in vanilla?). I managed to win WOTM 5 by being very aggressive early on and going dom (which I milked for 80,000 score ... so C63 is right that speed is the better skill ranking if I can score that much :lol: ) Did you try a more peaceful path? Maybe early war is even more critical in Warlords.

Jon Shaw may have more Warlords experience and can advise?

First decision is whether we move scout SW or NW, NW or NW, SW ? Scout decison depends a bit on settler options, doesn't it? I think he is not going more than one south, or we loose all the food. Want to stay coastal I think, as we will want the lighthouse. Can't see any reason to move the settler 1S to trade a plains hill for a grass hill for the city tile. I love settling on plains hills, as love the extra hammer in the city tile early. Everything you build comes in 33% to 50% faster.

So the settler is not going south. Even if there is a bonanza south of the southern blue circle, I don't want to invest 4 turns moving there ... just put the second city there!

Keeping with staying coastal, we could move the settler 2n to the forested plains hill, settle there on turn 2. Benefit? we get all resources we already see, plus whatever we don't see north of that. Downside? Lose a turn of output (and we lose the output of the last turn, not the first. If that does not make sense, I can refer you to a discussion of that).

Well, if the blue circle in the south is right, then if a city on that hill makes sense, it would make more room for it to move the settler 2N. I don't think that there is any move we can make northward with the scout that helps us decide whether to move the settler. But moving the scout to the hill SW might tell us if we want an city there and thus need to go north with the settler to make room.

So it seems to me that we move the scout SW, then decide whether we settle in place or move the settler 2N. If we do go 2N with the settler, I think we are committed to settling 2N, but that could always wait to be decided until after the second scout move (but I don't see what that adds ... even two scout moves northward can't add enough info to help, and I don't want to wait to turn 3 to settle, as I can't image finding anything extra that is worth the time cost).

So if we all agree that scout SW is step one, whomever is leadoff could to that, then post a screen for discussion to get the ball rolling.

I reckon we go SW onto the hill with the scout I reckon we settle in place unless there is something special. So much more succinctly said than by me !:lol:

I am unsure of the techs we are starting with? But If we have fishing I think we start with workboat. I am thinking workboat as well, on a plains hill it will build fast.

Does anyone know what Landform - Fractal, cylindrical, not entirely sure might have a go on a map like that. A recent GOTM was fractal ... I think it was separate continents, and someone in disucssion said that it is always separate continents, but the sea separation is variable (galley contact vs need caravels/galleons). We could start 10 or so practice setups with this setting and calculate the probabilities, I suppose.

About the start ... am I only seeing 2 hammers under the setter? Shouldn't a (edit: I meant to add forested) plains hill have 3?

dV

Initial random thoughts:
- vikings don't seem a brilliant civ to me. I'm struggling with them in WOTM6 - just made it to 1AD.
- the starting screenie was taken under the "blue marble" graphic mod, which might confuse some, because the plains are greener.
- temperate climate. We're slightly north of equator - see jungles on the southern fog. Even with gems or something else in that area, we might have to wait for IW to settle there. I'm not too excited about scouting it soon, but I could agree with scout 1SW, then moving NW-bound the following turns.
- plains hill is 2h. We get 3h with a forest on top of it. That is another minor downside of settling 2N - we'll lose that chop. Also, we could be moving away from a central location for our capitol. OTOH, I agree that we don't miss anything worthwhile from the move, and could possibly gain more from the tiles in the fog.
- settling in place gets us a production powerhouse. With size 6, working 2 or 3 food res and 4 or 3 mines (2plains, 1 grass), we'll be able to expand fast. Also, with that much food we should be whipping often.
- speaking of which, mining/BW seems the way to go. We already have fish/hunt. After that, the food techs (agri,AH).
- what we should have in mind is that initial site is poor commerce-wise. Until much later we won't be able to cottage the grass tiles (unhappy pop cap). We should scout for a place to settle a commerce-oriented city ASAP.
- initial production could be workboat, warrior (growing pop), worker?

So current settler tile is NOT forested hill ... despite the SW corner covered in forest ... a Blue Marble thing? Then 2N does lose a forest.

I still think that the only scout move that has any impact on settler decision is SW ... if we think that after IW we want a city on that hill, then maybe we want the capital further north?

Cultural expansion could be a drag ... religion? Stonehenge? There is a third option ... city overlap. If we plant next city to overlap some capital tiles that we don't have enough pop to work early anyway, then the new city has more tiles to chose from. I think fast start is most important this game, esp if we are on cont with only Gandhi and need caravels to find the rest! :eek:

We could play slow for two weeks, then mine the WOTM 6 spoilers for pointers. :mischief: Who else is playing WOTM 6 now on our team? We need to be sure we don't spoil that in discussions here.

dV

So R1, how do you figure you are not on the list? Maybe you just don't know where to look?

Apparently, I just don't pay attention!

Roster order has not been set yet. Last time I put the old guys in 1 hat and the new guys in another and alternated drawing names. I could do the same if that sounds alright.

Initial random thoughts:
- vikings don't seem a brilliant civ to me. I'm struggling with them in WOTM6 - just made it to 1AD.

That was my initial thought as well from WOTM6. Plus I had a little problem of my second city being captured by barbs. It took 2 trys and 4CR Warriors to get it back before I could expand any more. Then I started to have finance problems even with the Financial trait. But the bright side is that Berserkers coming out with 5XP are very fun to play with on a water map.

I agree with the scout SW move, then probably NW as C63 said. The other option is moving the scout 2NW under the pigs, but I'm not sure what that will give us besides a peek to the west.

I got crushed on the early wonders in WOTM6, so no advise from me here.

This is from a few PM's that we discussed earlier, and I quote,
By dVRe: SGOTM 4 initial overall thoughts and gimmicks

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by da_Vinci
Hi guys,

Some thoughts to share with the inner circle, that might guide how we play this strange game of losing the right way!

Keys to Victory (or, perhaps the right loss) in SGOTM 4

Permanent war with Gandhi = War Weariness !! ?? This is definitely worth thinking about pre-game. I have looked at the WW mechanics article in the War Academy, and the formula seems complex. General themes are that WW rises with combat events in enemy territory (defined by cultural dominance, not by cultural borders – there is a difference apparently), even when you win. Success in enemy territory begets WW (loss is ever worse). It declines slowly over time, so it can wear off. It wears off twice as fast in peace as in war. The wear off rate is -1 to the numerator (see below) at war, and -2 at peace if I understand it right.

There is a base WW level that is determined by combat and time (for each civ in the game), summed over all civs that you are at war with, divided by 200. So if you imagine that you have to build up 100 to 200 WW at base to get first unhappy person, you can see how slowly -1 or -2 per turn wears it off !!

We have to manage both our own WW and Gandhi’s WW. If he attacks us often, and we successfully defend, he will rack up WW, to his own detriment. We might need to besiege his cities, but not take them, as a way to keep his troops at home and his WW down if he seems to be too aggressive against us and building up too much WW of his own.

At the same time, we cannot let our own WW with Gandhi get out of hand. We might need to limit ourselves to defense if we are getting in trouble. If Gandhi gets too aggressive, playing defense and letting his WW grind him down might be a tactic.

AI gets WW discounted by 10% for each level above settler ... so a 60% discount on Monarch for Gandhi? Also, WW is 50% higher in a permanent war setting, so ours could really hurt. Might have to beeline to jails, police state, and Rushmore.

I did not see anything that says the city that built the unit in combat gets more WW. If that were true, we could build Globe in our military city and keep WW low.

Permanent war with Gandhi = Indirect trade !! ?? We can’t trade/gift techs to Gandhi. Next best thing will be to have a friend of his that we can trade with, hoping that they trade with Gandhi. But of course, each trade with us will be a trade with Gandhi’s worst enemy, so that may not last more than a few trades. Maybe we have to rotate our indirect trading partners?

Permanent war with Gandhi = Rolling thunder !! ?? As mentioned before, we plan to expand away from Gandhi, and let him slowly take the cities we leave behind. That will generate WW, so maybe this happens at the end of the game, after we have techs to fight WW? Plus, he will have to deal with motherland yearnings, another reason to save this for the end? Is motherland yearnings (MY) reduced by jails, PS and Rushmore?

Permanent war with Gandhi = Strange bedfellows !! ?? I don’t suppose that there is any reason why we can’t share a war with Gandhi while we are at war with him? If he is fighting someone, maybe we send an expeditionary force to help him fight the war. We just need to be fighting where he has no troops, so that he does not turn his forces on our forces. “The enemy of my enemy is my enemy”, to paraphrase an old saying. This might be more effective than rolling thunder from the motherland yearnings point of view. If we can kill other civs and then let Gandhi take their cities, the motherland is not us, so we can kill the civ and Gandhi has no MY to deal with. Hmm ... this may be the key strategy to victory !!

dV

By R1
All great points dV. I have been thinking also. So much of Civ is determined by the map, I hope Gandhi is at least not right on our borders to start. If we have a little time to forge some relations before we get to involved in the war, we will be able to control the level at which we "have" to war. I'm thinking that we have to let "G" forge some good trading partners for him to be fast into space. To that end, if any of the other civs decide to attack G, we may almost have play a protectionist role. "The enemy of enemy is my enemy" may be more apropos than ever. I'm thinking that we are mainly going to be a military power with the ability to throw our might around as need be. These are just some of my early random thoughts on the subject, I'll have many more random thoughts in the future.

By C63
All good points. Maybe if we had managed to play SGOTM1 to a later date we could have a better feel about the impacts of permanent war (besides permanent peace).

I haven't d/l the latest save, but IIRC 000's of years of war with HC haven't generated any WW to us. That is obviously related to no combat whatsoever in that so-called war. I haven't read stuff on WW calculations, but I think that the plan relying on giving away conquered cities would most likely hit us heavily with WW. Maybe razing cities and leaving open spaces for the skinny guy to settle would work better. But as R1 says, only time (and the map ) will tell.

I remember we weren't able to open diplo screen with HC, because we hadn't met him yet. If we did, I wonder if any kind of dialogue would be possible in the "always war" settings.

An alternate learning strategy could be to trash our practice game and simply go read SGOTM1's threads to seek for more information on the "always war" stuff. Are we ready to do that?

Or we could just wait for new game thread to open and ask our new teammates about their knowledge on these matters.

I decided not to wait for feedback on the name draw, Jon went in the hat with the new guys since he was absent last time. And the winner is!!!!!!!!

da_Vinci - hitting leadoff :cool:
Jon Shaw - on deck :D
Conquistador 63 - in the hole ;)
g_storrow - pre-planning :mischief:
Ronnie1 - waiting not so patiently :scan:
Immaculate - on holiday :p

The hat trick seems fine to me.

@ R1: maybe put those long (or at least mine) PM quotes in a spoiler compartment? I think that organizing long posts that way just makes scrolling through that much easier. I will probably do that with my inevitably long posts this time.

We probably need to be sure who is where playing WOTM 6 before we discuss is too much here, but I think that eventually our experience with Vikings there can help us here.

Interesting brewings in the maintenance thread ... be sure to peruse it!

dV

My edit cross posted with your last post dV, look up!!

My edit cross posted with your last post dV, look up!! OK, seems to me that the first step is scout to SW hill and post a screen for discussion.

Vote:

1) Agree

2) Propose alternative first scout move

I will await the verdict of the war council.

dV

Interesting brewings in the maintenance thread ... be sure to peruse it!

Very interesting indeed!! It definitely puts a spin on possibilties.


Vote:

1) Agree

2) Propose alternative first scout move

I agree

Given the world rankings, maybe C63 is the one I should be looking to for profound wisdom.;)

Given the world rankings, maybe C63 is the one I should be looking to for profound wisdom.;)
Honestly, those rankings can be deceitful. The amount of GOTMs played might influence a lot, and I've been around since GOTM5. In fact, my highest score ever was achieved on that game (low level difficulty), and I don't think I was a better player at that time than I am now, or at least I hope so!. :rolleyes:

I don't know well our new teammates, but I think we're all at the same skill level.

Back to the game: as already discussed, scout's first move won't have any impact on settling decision. Therefore I am neutral on its move. Does that count as an "agree"? :crazyeye:

Back to the game: as already discussed, scout's first move won't have any impact on settling decision. Therefore I am neutral on its move. Does that count as an "agree"? :crazyeye: If the scout goes to the SW hill and finds so many resources that we must eventually have a city on that hill, wouldn't that influence whether we settle in place (lots of overlap) or move 2N with settler (no overlap IIRC)?

I agree that the scout's first or even second move won't inform us much about what we get in the fat cross in either of the two current settling options for the settler.

But since you did not present a scout move alternative, then I guess it counts as an agree by default! ;)

g_storrow, Jon Shaw ... the polls are still open! :D

dV

I reckon we go SW onto the hill with the scout I reckon we settle in place unless there is something special.

I will take this as an agree and we have 4 agrees out of 4 votes cast. So I am going to make the scout move and post a screen ...

Done. Gems and sugar south of the scout hill. We could settle a later city on scout hill, in which case we want to move settler 2N. Or we could settle a later city south of the hill, (but would be in lots of jungle), and settler could settle in place.

Settling 2N would give us 5 mined hills to work, lighthouse adds food to the lake? I think we would have enough food to work all of them eventually! Production powerhouse !! Downside is few places to cottage.

But high production means we have better shot at wonders. If we get 'mids and GLib, we might set the tech pace in our world. Do we want all the wonders, or let Gandhi get them? No guarantee that he will beat other AI to them. If we hoard them, at least other AI don't get them. And supressing the other AI is critical to this game (see addendum). Do we want henge or great wall? If we deprive AI of great wall, maybe barbs slow them down? If we have to defend against Gandhi, then maybe we want protection from barbs? And the GE point doesn't hurt either.

Finally, a production powerhouse might be just the thing to let Gandhi take late in the game to build parts.

Or, 4 hills to work settling in place, but more balance between hammers and commerce. To get Gandhi in space before other teams, do we need production or commerce more? Maybe we want a commerce powerhouse in the capital (for Bureaucracy)?

I am tempted to go 2N to settle, what do others think?

I have made notes on the master screenshot of what I find in the fog based on zooming into the visible edges. Does jungle ever grow on plains?

dV

Addendum: But we don't want other AI too suppressed, since only they can trade with Gandhi. I think we want to avoid Gandi becoming vassal to an AI, as that would mean permanent war with that AI too (see maint thread). Solution may be for us to be in control of this game as much as possible and we can determine how strong we let the AI be.

List of questions:

What tech to research first ... mining - BW?

What wonders do we want? 'henge? Great Wall?

Go for a religion? If not, how address culture and happiness?

Plan if we are alone on continent with Gandhi, and need caravels to reach the rest?

dV

List of questions:

What tech to research first ... mining - BW?

What wonders do we want? 'henge? Great Wall?

Go for a religion? If not, how address culture and happiness?

Plan if we are alone on continent with Gandhi, and need caravels to reach the rest?

I'm in favor of mining/BW as start path, to allow for chopping and Slavery. We can produce a WB already for fast growth and working the coast commerce.

Wonders may depend on Stone/Marble availability.

I'm not in favor of the early religions, maybe Conf. or Taoism later.

As I said in the PM quote's, I think our role in this game will be as military power that throws our weight around as needed. We try to allow development in the direction that benefits us and Mr G. To that end, a great early start is critical. I would say settle in place. If we want our capitol to be a commerce center, we move the palace later to a more central location that has the ability to produce commerce. Also, looking at the southern location, we may want that city on the river for the health benefits.

Those are my initial thoughts, let the debate begin!!

@ R1: So if you don't need capital to be commerce center right off, it will be a production center. Then why not settle 2N for the 5 hills vs the 4 hills settling in place? The extra hill will make up for the 1 turn later settling I would think ...

And, it lets us settle a city south of it that is not in the jungle, so easier to improve its land.

dV

short post: I agree with settling 2N, research mining/bw, building wb. Maybe play until mining is done and pass the save for further evaluation?

I made a forray into worldbuilder for the first time.

My first fractal map made one large continent. Past GOTM fractal had several, so cont count is up for grabs!

Start working clams for 2F, 3C (WB in 23, mining in 9, BW in 18) or working forest grass for 2F 1H (WB in 15, mining in 12, BW will get benefit of faster pop growth with faster WB)? That is what I tested in WB

Clams start ... status at turn 30: Pop 3, WB on clams, 1 warrior, worker due in 12, have mining, BW, and 5 turns from Agric.

Autolog:

Turn 0 (4000 BC)
Nidaros founded
Nidaros begins: Work Boat
Research begun: Mining

Turn 1 (3970 BC)

Turn 2 (3940 BC)

Turn 3 (3910 BC)
Contact made: Zulu Empire

Turn 4 (3880 BC)

Turn 5 (3850 BC)

Turn 6 (3820 BC)

Turn 7 (3790 BC)
Nidaros's borders expand

Turn 8 (3760 BC)
Tech learned: Mining

Turn 9 (3730 BC)
Research begun: Bronze Working

Turn 10 (3700 BC)

Turn 11 (3670 BC)

Turn 12 (3640 BC)

Turn 13 (3610 BC)

Turn 14 (3580 BC)
Scout defeats (0.52/1): Barbarian Lion

Turn 15 (3550 BC)

Turn 16 (3520 BC)
Nidaros grows: 2

Turn 17 (3490 BC)

Turn 18 (3460 BC)

Turn 19 (3430 BC)

Turn 20 (3400 BC)
Buddhism founded in a distant land

Turn 21 (3370 BC)

Turn 22 (3340 BC)
Nidaros finishes: Work Boat
Scout defeats (0.52/1): Barbarian Panther

Turn 23 (3310 BC)
Nidaros begins: Warrior
Scout promoted: Woodsman I

Turn 24 (3280 BC)
Tech learned: Bronze Working

Turn 25 (3250 BC)
Research begun: Agriculture

Turn 26 (3220 BC)

Turn 27 (3190 BC)

Turn 28 (3160 BC)
Nidaros grows: 3

Turn 29 (3130 BC)
Nidaros finishes: Warrior

Turn 30 (3100 BC)
Nidaros begins: Worker
Barbarian State declares war Forest start: Pop 3, WB on clams, 1 warrior, mining, BW, agric in 8 turns, worker in 8 turns.

Autolog:

Turn 0 (4000 BC)
Nidaros founded
Nidaros begins: Work Boat
Research begun: Mining

Turn 1 (3970 BC)

Turn 2 (3940 BC)

Turn 3 (3910 BC)

Turn 4 (3880 BC)

Turn 5 (3850 BC)

Turn 6 (3820 BC)

Turn 7 (3790 BC)
Nidaros's borders expand
Contact made: Zulu Empire

Turn 8 (3760 BC)

Turn 9 (3730 BC)

Turn 10 (3700 BC)

Turn 11 (3670 BC)
Tech learned: Mining

Turn 12 (3640 BC)
Research begun: Bronze Working

Turn 13 (3610 BC)

Turn 14 (3580 BC)
Nidaros finishes: Work Boat

Turn 15 (3550 BC)
Nidaros begins: Warrior
Nidaros grows: 2

Turn 16 (3520 BC)

Turn 17 (3490 BC)

Turn 18 (3460 BC)

Turn 19 (3430 BC)

Turn 20 (3400 BC)

Turn 21 (3370 BC)

Turn 22 (3340 BC)

Turn 23 (3310 BC)

Turn 24 (3280 BC)
Nidaros grows: 3
Scout defeats (0.84/1): Barbarian Lion

Turn 25 (3250 BC)
Nidaros finishes: Warrior

Turn 26 (3220 BC)
Nidaros begins: Worker
Nidaros begins: Warrior
Nidaros begins: Settler
Nidaros begins: Worker

Turn 27 (3190 BC)
Tech learned: Bronze Working

Turn 28 (3160 BC)
Research begun: Agriculture

Turn 29 (3130 BC)

Turn 30 (3100 BC) Difference between emphasize hammers and emphasize commerce is a three turn swap between the worker time and the research time. Would we rather be three turns ahead in research, or three turns ahead in worker time (and perhaps also pop growth)?

Also, I moved off commerce to hammers after WB to get warrior to finish within 1 turn of pop to begin worker faster in both cases. We could decide to always work both the lake and the clams for max science rate, if we are OK to slow production.

So ... do we boost science rate or hammer rate at the start?

dV

I would think that speeding up the worker will pay off in the long run with increased tile yields.

I'll go with moving north to settle if that is what the majority wants. I'm still not sure if it will benefit however. I guess we hope for more resources north in the fog, and don't worry about the health benefits of settling the southern city on the river.

How about some feedback from g_s and JS?

I would think that speeding up the worker will pay off in the long run with increased tile yields.

I'll go with moving north to settle if that is what the majority wants. I'm still not sure if it will benefit however. I guess we hope for more resources north in the fog, and don't worry about the health benefits of settling the southern city on the river. If we think workers pay off, how soon do we want to build the second worker? Maybe we should have a look at the CFR games in 03 to see if perhaps they pushed commerce/science at the expense of production early on? Maybe that is a key to their speed??

North location has one extra hill to mine and work. Add forge and bureacracy and that hill is multiplied by 0.75. That is the benefit, along with being able to found a city in the south that is not in jungle. I think that the extra hill could give us a leg up going for wonders.

If we want to have a lot of coastal cities, then we may not be headed for the river anyway. I think I would grab the gems and sugar with a coast city, and if needed, irrigation chain from the lake eventually for food.

dV

My only real concern with moving north is giving up all those forests in the fat cross of the current location. I know we'll get them all eventually, but settling in place would allow us to crank out some production in the first 100 turns or so.

@R1: good point on losing the forests. They might be useful for chopping SH. I missed culture generation in my other viking game. In fact, I agreed with settling 2N because the possibility of hidden resources there, not because of +1 hill. We won't be able to work all those mines for a long time anyway.

A compromise solution: move settler 2N, reevaluate (settle there or back to original start?).

p.s. CRC already started playing, check the progress page.

@R1: good point on losing the forests. They might be useful for chopping SH. I missed culture generation in my other viking game. In fact, I agreed with settling 2N because the possibility of hidden resources there, not because of +1 hill. We won't be able to work all those mines for a long time anyway. I had not thought about the forest issue, but they may be more useful than the extra hill early, as R1 says. Happy cap will be 5, health cap 6 or so (fresh water, forests), and at least half of that working food tiles, so yes, can't work the extra hill very soon.

My initial thought was this: (in a PM reply to R1 that included discussion of our WOTM 6 efforts) "they are pretty close: either way captial city has all resources we can see in the north, 2N greater production (more specialized), less commerce, chance for resources in the fog. In place has a bit less production (still a lot), more commerece (cottage space), and saves one move. I could be happy with either one, I just think that if we believe the doctrine of city specialization, that 2N makes sense."

I think that henge would be nice for early culture, since we will want early sailing for the trading posts. No time to chase religion early. So 7 forests vs 2 is nothing to sneeze at. I think I have been talked into settling in place for the forests.

I read somewhere that forests regrow based on number of adjacent forests to the unimproved tile. If so, then SW of settler start is a grass surrounded by forest ... if they regrow fast enough, maybe we keep a few forests there for health, and start a forestry operation of just chop the one that grows (in Civ 3, workers could plant them, a tactic I never really used but some swore by). Of course, that forest operation could be done in a later city ...

A compromise solution: move settler 2N, reevaluate (settle there or back to original start?). I think that the difference between the two sites is not big enough, even with potential extra resources, to be worth waiting to settle on the third turn. Think this through, dV ... what resource could we see now that would sway us? Gold or gems not in jungle, I suppose. Food would not sway us, would it? Already have enough of that for one city early. Might have iron or copper in those other hills, but then those seem as likely to appear in grassland or plains to me, and we won't see them now, so it is blind hope. Stone or marble would be nice ... maybe that is worth a look? Stone or marble in that production powerhouse 2N would be worth giving up the forests, I think. And maybe worth a look. If it is up there, and we don't get it but other teams do, then that might be a loss we can't make up. A 2 turn settling lag we can make up. I think we might do the 2N look, and then debate the comeback.

Hmmm ... I could move settler to 2N, then post the screens of that for discussion.

I will wait for some consensus.

And pardon my thinking out loud as I type :D

dV

Stone, Marble, Gold, Silver, or Gems would convince me to settle in the N. I would agree that taking a look would be worth the delay. As I told dV in my last PM, my WOTM6 was delayed by "issues" :lol: , but I recovered eventually and won, we only need to recover and lose!!;)

So it looks like we have a new poll to take ...

What to do with the settler?

1. Settle in place

2. Move 2N, settle there on turn 2 no matter what

3. Move 2N, then see if we settle there turn 2 or back in original hill on turn 3.

So far, dV and R1 vote for #3, C63 floated the idea ... is that a confirmed vote of support?

JS and g_s: are weekends times when you are less likely to access the site? If so, we will just plan on debating and making large decisions during the work week.

PS: I saw a war academy article that touted building the worker first, on normal speed. I don't think it dealt with the context of workboat available first. Made one simulation worker first, pushing to AH first to pasture the pigs right off, came out behind the WB first option (still no BW by 30 turns, and only two pop). Sometimes the worker was idle. I will look at worker first with mining/BW as the techs, but I suspect that WB first will still win.

dV

PS: I saw a war academy article that touted building the worker first, on normal speed. I don't think it dealt with the context of workboat available first. Made one simulation worker first, pushing to AH first to pasture the pigs right off, came out behind the WB first option (still no BW by 30 turns, and only two pop). Sometimes the worker was idle. I will look at worker first with mining/BW as the techs, but I suspect that WB first will still win.


I read that article also. I found the same thing you did in a couple random tests a while back. Idle time for the worker depending on the starting techs. I really like trying to time my first worker with BW or a little before if I start with the wheel (Does not apply here obviously). I mainly just think that letting the city get some growth speeds things up more in the long run. Why spend 23 turns building a worker and not growing? You could spend 23 turns on a WB and a warrior, and then produce the worker in about 15 turns at size 3 and be ahead.

CRC is out of the gate like a bat out of hell!

Score 87 at turn 32

Chokonuts has score 94 at turn 40

My simulations with WB first (either the 3 turns more commerce or 3 turns more hammers) both give us a score of 104 30 turns after we settle! So maybe after we decide where to settle I just play out that sequence to that point, then pass the save? :D If we agree WB, warrior, worker and mining, BW, (what 3rd tech do we want?), then no decisons to make for that many turns. Maybe sailing is the third tech we want, as the Tpost would add a food to the lake, giving us a good commerce tile with extra food. Also adds a food to the clams. Worker will be plenty busy with chops and mines for a while.

Or, could pass the save after BW done ... BW done at 25 T after settle in the commerce option (pop3, WB clams, 1 warrior, mining, BW and agric in 5T, worker in 12 T at 30 turns post settle);

or BW done in 28 T after settle in the hammer option (pop3, WB clams, 1 warrior, mining, BW, agric in 8, worker in 8 30 T post settle);

R1 liked the hammer option, which I lean towards as well (worker 4 T faster).

Wonder if those scores under 100 at 30 turns means they have already whipped something?

dV

Hi guys, is nice to be back with the Gypsy Kings again. I'm still playing the last SGOTM (on the New Warlords team), so may be a little busy and/or "schizonphrenic" until thats over!!

My delay in psoting here is mainly because I was a spanner and didn't realise the threads had been opened (I was looking in the non-Warlords SGOTM area...doh).

Anyway, enough rambling on my part. The idea behind this game is certainly intriguing, it will be interesting to see what happens (e.g. if we're close to Gandhi or not etc).

Re: settling, I think I would be happy with either settling in place or moving 2N. I tend to settle in place always really, based on the fact that the game biases your start location so much it is probably the best place. That said, these these games on customised maps often seem to have prime locations NOT where you start, probably just to catch out dull people like me.

The start location looks good for lots of whipping as there is so much food available. A bit later on, hereditary rule could be good too, as we could support a much higher pop with lots of warriors, or something else cheap.

So:

I don't mind where we found our city, am happy to go with looking 2N if that is the consensus.

I think we should definitely build a workboat first to get the pop creeping up, but after that I think a worker is going to be a priority.

I suggest heading for BW first, and get whipping. We are going to be able to grow our pop so fast that we should be able to build something every 10 turns by whipping, whilst still being able to build other stuff in the intervening turns while the pop gets back up and the unhappiness wears off.

Wow, three crossing posts in 4 minutes! A new record? (AlanH ... ? :D )

Good to hear from you Jon, glad you found us. We will have to be careful not to spoil SGOTM 3 here in this thread (for you and g_storrow).

We like the starting spot, but would hate to miss stone or marble in the north. I am wondering if we will be able to see the entire fat cross from the hill 2N, since we will have hills adjacent. Then again, do you suppose that the scout was in the south for a reason (to hide goodies in the north from his view)?

I am thinking of taking the scout around that mountain in the south, then heading in large arc from 6 o'clock to 12 o'clock to scout our western perimiter.

Here is a new thought ... does Gandhi start with a warrior or a scout (or that fast worker of his?) Just wondering if we need a warrior first ... if he is close and finds us, would he rush our undefended city? Off to the simulation!

dV

Or, could pass the save after BW done ... BW done at 25 T after settle in the commerce option (pop3, WB clams, 1 warrior, mining, BW and agric in 5T, worker in 12 T at 30 turns post settle);

I agree with that option. Next tech will depend on the availability of copper. If none around, than AH? Locate horses+work pig. Passing save after BW is best option for me. Btw, I'd revolt to slavery immediately, would poprush worker asap.

And it is really a close call between the 2 settling options. I am ok with both, but I like Jon's reasoning for settling in place. Also on specialized cities issue: bureaucracy benefits commerce and production, in place our capital would have both strong. Why couldn't we work the northern resources (provided that they're there :) ) with another city?

And it is really a close call between the 2 settling options. I am ok with both, but I like Jon's reasoning for settling in place. Also on specialized cities issue: bureaucracy benefits commerce and production, in place our capital would have both strong. Why couldn't we work the northern resources (provided that they're there :) ) with another city? My main idea for going north for a look is if there is marble or stone up there, then getting right to it in the capital might be worthwhile. If there is no food bonus up in the north, then it will be hard to work non-food resources there in a second city (compared to the captial at 2N with food and any northern resources). But if we will have limited vison from that hill anyway, I could go with settling in place.

Going out to shovel snow now!

dV

Going out to shovel snow now!

I'm just sitting by the fire watching mine melt!! :p

Made a worldbuilder sim that matches the start. Settler on the 2N hill still has fog on the 1N 2W, 2N 1W and 2N tile in the fat cross of the north settling optiom. So, because of the hills north of the 2N city site, can't see all of the fat cross.

Settle in place has the advantage of lots of forest (7), no turn loss. More balance between hammers and commerce.

Settle 2N has extra hill, but can't work it early anyway. Only 2 forests in FC after settling (we settle on a forest). Advantage of settling there is ?resources in the north fog, and more room to settle 1N of the gems with a later city. But such a city would not have much food bonus.

We will not be able to see the entire FC of a 2N city with the 2N move. So is it worth the 2N move north to see 5 addtional tiles, 4 of which we already know terrain type (but not resources?), and to see edges of 2 more? Maybe not. If there is gold, silver, gems, stone marble up there, is second city to harvest worse than capital there? I suppose any of the resources would benefit from bureaucracy if capital includes them, rather than a second city. And if the coast wraps westward north of the 2N site, may not be room for a second city.

Boils down to Capital with 7 forests, 4 hills but no non-food bonuses, vs. captal with 2 forests, 5 hills, and maybe some additional bonus in the north.

Took another long look at the northern tiles in the save ... played with worldbuilder to see if resources can be seen just from the edge ... answer appears to be no.

I could go either way on this ... Settle in place works for me, settle 2N works for me, and go north and come back if nothing works for me. I guess if I have to choose, I still like taking the look north, but if other prefer settling in place, I am happy with that.

dV

PS: Gandhi stars with two archers. Going to simulate a warrior WB worker sequence. Might be a reason to settle in place ... a fast warrior for defense. If I go war, WB war, worker, I can get BW at turn 29 after settle, first war in 6, and second war just at turn 29 or so. 94 score at turn 30 after settling (interesting that the 87 CRC has I get with a war WB worker sequence).

Do we assume that Gandhi won't come after us, and go WB first? That gets the 104 at turn 30. Or, start the warrior first, have 94 at turn 30 with 3 pop, 2 war, and 12 turns to worker. If we rush worker, rush for 2 pop or just 1 pop?

dV

I like WB - Warrior - Warrior/Worker @ size 3.

settle in place, production as R1 says. Mining/BW, pass the save. :)

Sorry about not posting this weekend.

Either of the locations I will go with the consesus.

2nd build might be worker rather than warrior jsut depends how close other civ is and if it is india.

TRy to keep SGOTM and WOTM spoilers out of the log please. I am abotu to start WOTM6.

I like WB - Warrior - Warrior/Worker @ size 3. If I was not already at war with Gandhi, I would for sure start with the WB. But he does have two archers from the get go, and I worry that if one of them wanders to our border, he might rush us. That would be game over before anyone else gets to play! :eek:

Workboat first takes 15 turns working a 2F 1H forest (3H net), or 12 turns if I I work the 1F 2H forest (4H net) available if I settle in place. With WB first can't get warrior faster than turn 16 or 17

Working the 1F 2H forest I get warrior in 6. Simulations show only marginal differences between warrior first and WB first: BW differs by at most 2 turns, and I swap 1 extra warrior for 4 turns of production into the worker. Since I can rush the worker for 2 pop at turn 30 anyway, Warrior first seems just as good, and safer.

Working 2F 1H had no meaningful differences from working 1F 2H other than the warrior is two turns faster. Evens out by turn 30.

Now that I have a simulation map that is an exact geographic match to the visible start, I can only get a score of 94 at turn 30. Don't know how the other map was getting 104. Does winnning combat add to score? In the 104 scenario, scout won battles against animals. Partial credit for research? :confused:

So here is my new thought ... lets settle in place. Warrior in 6 turns by working the 1F 2H forest. Captal defended. WB next build. Mining done end of turn 12, start BW. WB done turn 17, work boated clams. Start second warrior. Turn 18 scout completes sweep of western perimiter from 6 o'clock to 12 o'clock. Pop 2 at turn 21. Work clams, lake to speed BW. Turn 28 second warrior done, start on third. Turn 29 BW done, start AH (find horses, pasture pigs). Score 87. Turn 30 pop 3. Worker in 12 (warrior in 4 in queue). AH in 13 working 2F 1H to max worker. If we pop rush worker, AH in 11 on the lake. Need 3 to pop rush worker now, can rush worker for 2 after one turn.

When to hand off save? Turn 29 if we want to post an 87 score. Turn 30 if we want to post a 94 score. Turn 28 if we want to post an 80 score. Do we want to intimidate or sandbag? :lol:

Rush the worker, chop a settler? Send both warriors out with settler, and finish the third one in Nidaros?

This sequence, or somethink like it, could also be done at the 2N site, or after a 2N move and a return to in place if we choose that.

BW in 25 in the scenario where I work commerce over hammers from the start, warrior comes late.

BW in 28 if I work hammers over commerce at first, even if WB is first.

So, back to voting:

Question 1:

1. Settle in place

2. Settle 2N

3. Move 2N to look, then decide.

I'm ok with any, favor 1.

Question 2:

1. Warrior first

2. WB first.

I favor 1.

dV

Vote results:

Here is what I think I see ...

C63 likes settle in place, R1 likes settle in place, dV likes settle in place, JS likes settle in place, g_s equivocal. Settle in place it is.

Since I have to deal with that Indian archer if he shows up, I am going warrior first (player priveledge). Simulations show not much difference in the two approaches.

Save up soon.

dV

Maybe too late, but I still prefer WB 1st.

It is 4000 BC. King Ragnar and his band of followers stand on a hill by the sea, pondering their options. Settling here gives them food from the sea, from grain, and from animals of the land. Lush forests abound, to be harvested. A lake is near. A small scouting band to the south tells them that there is nothing there to tempt them away from the hill by the sea.

There is another hill to the north, still on the sea, still near the lake and the sources of food. It has fewer forests nearby, but more hills, and uncharted land to its north. Should we move there? The royal court deliberates. The defense minister rushes in with news from abroad: A man named Gandhi has sworn his hatred of us! :eek: He is in a state of war with us as we speak! :eek:

We have no idea where his lands are, where his armies are, and we are defenseless! :eek: It is decided ... settle here, build a warrior to defend us against the unknown immediately. The interior minister assures us that this is at most a minimal delay in developing our infrastructure. Nidaros is founded.

Our scouts explore south briefly, then turn NW. In the south they find marble, near gems and sugar. As they sweep north to the west of Nidaros, they encounter a lion. Defending in jungle, they kill the beast. Then they find three hills gleaming with gold, near some fish, just west of the pigs in Nidaros. A bear appears to their north, and they retreat home for safety.

We study mining as we build the warrior. Then a workboat is built to harvest the clams from the sea. We study how to work bronze, in the hope that we find copper nearby. A second warrior is built as we allow our city to grow. We do find copper, north and just outside our city's reach. We will have a population of 3 in 1 turn, and are then ready to build a worker for our infrastructure.

We have not found this man Gandhi or his minions so far ... or any other neighbors.

And so Prince da_Vinci hands over the reigns of power to King Jon of the Shaw.

The save is on the progress and results page.

I would have gone WB first if not for the war with Gandhi. I'd rather be explaining why I built a warrior first, than explaining how an Indian archer captured our capital and eliminated us at the starting gate (didn't the barbs do that to somone early in a previous SGOTM ?) In my simulation map, Shaka's scout was showing up at about turn 6, so you never know! ;) Not a gamble I was willing to take.

We would have to build the warriors anyway to escort the first settler, so I think overall that it will even out.

Scout still has a move, and I just set research to AH, but we can change that after discussion. Worker can be whipped for 2 pop one turn after we start on it, I think. Or later for 1 pop.

Interesting choices now: Go for the marble and Oracle? We would have to head for religion for that. And first settler goes south. Stonehenge for the culture? No stone in sight, so could be a longshot. Go for the gold? That city (see screenshot) has good food for growth (can borrow the pigs when needed). But that means getting to the marble later, and perhaps missing oracle. The marble city would be food poor.

If we don't go for Oracle and religion, AH is a reasonable tech ... the pigs, and find horses. Or sailing to get trading post up ... extra food and faster ships.

Now, I just hope C63 can forgive me! :spank: Our score almost matches Gandhi's, and is similar to other teams, so we are not doing too poorly! :D

Autolog:

Nidaros founded
Nidaros begins: Warrior
Research begun: Mining

Turn 1 (3970 BC)

Turn 2 (3940 BC)

Turn 3 (3910 BC)

Turn 4 (3880 BC)

Turn 5 (3850 BC)
Nidaros finishes: Warrior

Turn 6 (3820 BC)
Nidaros begins: Work Boat

Turn 7 (3790 BC)
Nidaros's borders expand

Turn 8 (3760 BC)

Turn 9 (3730 BC)

Turn 10 (3700 BC)

Turn 11 (3670 BC)
Tech learned: Mining

Turn 12 (3640 BC)
Research begun: Bronze Working
Buddhism founded in a distant land

Turn 13 (3610 BC)
Scout defeats (0.32/1): Barbarian Lion

Turn 14 (3580 BC)

Turn 15 (3550 BC)

Turn 16 (3520 BC)
Nidaros finishes: Work Boat

Turn 17 (3490 BC)
Nidaros begins: Warrior

Turn 18 (3460 BC)

Turn 19 (3430 BC)

Turn 20 (3400 BC)
Nidaros grows: 2

Turn 21 (3370 BC)

Turn 22 (3340 BC)

Turn 23 (3310 BC)

Turn 24 (3280 BC)

Turn 25 (3250 BC)

Turn 26 (3220 BC)
Nidaros finishes: Warrior

Turn 27 (3190 BC)
Nidaros begins: Warrior

Turn 28 (3160 BC)
Tech learned: Bronze Working

Turn 29 (3130 BC)
Research begun: Animal Husbandry
Upload log: Turn 0, 4000 BC: Nidaros has been founded.

Turn 11, 3670 BC: You have discovered Mining!

Turn 12, 3640 BC: Buddhism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 13, 3610 BC: Barbarian's Lion (2.00) vs Gypsy Kings's Scout (2.70)
Turn 13, 3610 BC: Combat Odds: 21.3%
Turn 13, 3610 BC: (Animal Combat: +20%)
Turn 13, 3610 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 13, 3610 BC: (Class Animal Combat: +100%)
Turn 13, 3610 BC: Gypsy Kings's Scout is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 13, 3610 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 13, 3610 BC: Gypsy Kings's Scout is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 13, 3610 BC: Gypsy Kings's Scout is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 13, 3610 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 13, 3610 BC: Gypsy Kings's Scout is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 13, 3610 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 13, 3610 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 13, 3610 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 13, 3610 BC: Gypsy Kings's Scout has defeated Barbarian's Lion!

Turn 28, 3160 BC: You have discovered Bronze Working!
Turn 28, 3160 BC: <COLOR=252,147,40,255Nidaros will grow to size 3 on the next turn

Good job, dV!
I haven't checked the save, but:
- Our city will be pop3, then we'll be able to whip worker for only 1 pop. Need pop4 to whip 2.
- How about mysticism after AH? SH should be easy, with that many forests to chop.
- Maybe insert a settler before it? I like your dotmap for next cities. Three gold mines and 2 food is wonderful. Copper can be worked from capital with next border expansion. Marble city could be #3, IMO.

Some thoughts on Gandhi's proximity: I'd be very suprised if gandhi was so close he could rush us with archers- even with a warrior it is leaving too much to luck, I don't think the person designing the game would risk it. An example to back this up: it is publicised that huts near start locs are also removed to prevent their random effects having too great an effect early on.

Anyway, looks good otherwise. I'll play this evening- once I've finished my turns in SGOTM3...

...Can never have too much civ ;)

Ahhh... a bit of a problem with different HoF mods for SGOTMs 3+4 (my SGOTM3 is still in progress). Until I get this sorted, can you please skip my turn(s)? Sorry!

I think that means C63 is up now?

If we want 'henge, then maybe mysticism before AH? There is no investment in AH yet. Let's not be three turns too late like last time (;) ) if we want 'henge, lets go all out!

My simulation seemed to be letting me poprush 2 at size 3... but that is 3 plus the city tile phantom, so maybe that is the four you need for poprush 2?

I was thinking of the settler chop expoit for the forests ... make whatever it is we want, then every (4th, 5th, whatever the chop time is) switch to settler, and have all the chop hammers go to settler. Then maybe pop rush it after a couple of chops. I'd love to get started on those gold hills soon!

I agree get to copper through capital, as not much else for a new city up there. I guess that is a reason to get 'henge ... how much culture from that?

Also agree marble city not next, as there is no food there. In "Cibola" (are you with me, C63? ;) ) growth will be rapid using the pigs and the fish, so that should be second. And we get extra commerce from the gold from our finanacial trait :D

We did pretty well getting our culture from libraries last time, so 'henge might not be a necessity? I could go either way on that one.

Jon seems itching to play tonight, so we better hurry up and get a consensus! :lol:

dV

Crossed Jon's post while looking up my Cibola reference ... @ Jon: should be as easy as downloading the newer warlords HOF mod, and the game sorts them out. If you go to the save folder in windows explorer and open the save file as the way to start the game (instead of go into the game first and then load a save in the game), the mods sort themselves out pretty well.

dV

Some thoughts on Gandhi's proximity: I'd be very suprised if gandhi was so close he could rush us with archers- even with a warrior it is leaving too much to luck, I don't think the person designing the game would risk it. An example to back this up: it is publicised that huts near start locs are also removed to prevent their random effects having too great an effect early on. I had the same thought, but then I don't trust Gyathaar that much! :lol: My simulations did not give me BW much later (a turn or two) if warrior first, so I figured better safe than sorry.

Anyone have formal decison analysis training on the team (besides me a little bit?) It is all about multiplying probabilities of events by the utility (value) of the event. So even though archer rush is low probability, if you multiply it by its utility (negative infinitity!) if we are defenseless, it is a path not to be chosen!

dV

In the simulator, only one pop available to rush at pop 3 as C63 said. Took 7 turns to be able to pop rush at 1. That is exactly how long it took to research Mysticism. So going right for henge, chopped a forest hill, mined the hill, chopped a plains forest and then another hill forest (could have chopped and mined one forest hill instead), got 'henge at turn 62. A lot of time investment, so I think we get a settler out first, and then think about 'henge. Not sure henge is worth delaying the second city founding. We have lived without it before, and can do it again if we have to.

Actually, I think that leaving wonders to the AI may make sense. Gandhi should get some, and we could capture them and let Gandhi take them. So I am not to worried if we don't get them.

dV

Nice Start dV!! Thanks for the testing. Are you interested in becoming the resident LC.

Logistics as follows,

da_Vinci - just played :goodjob:
Jon Shaw - skipped by request :sad:
Conquistador 63 - UP NOW :D
g_storrow - on deck :cool:
Ronnie1 - in the hole :scan:
Immaculate - back from holiday soon :sad: :sad: :sad:

The gold is nice, I wish there was more food to help work it. I agree that the gold site should be city #2. I'm not sure about Stonehenge, but it is pretty cheap. With the marble in the south, would we consider a play for Oracle?

@C63, What are your plans for the next set?

Nice Start dV!! Thanks for the testing. Are you interested in becoming the resident LC. I think he reads code and I don't, so I'm only an LC wannabe.

The gold is nice, I wish there was more food to help work it. I agree that the gold site should be city #2. I'm not sure about Stonehenge, but it is pretty cheap. With the marble in the south, would we consider a play for Oracle? [/QUOTE] I think we pop rush the worker when we can. I'd go with AH but work the lake and the clams to speed the research. Maybe use the settler chop technque while finishing third warrior, or maybe pasturing the pigs first to speed poprushing? Food is power. Still think early sailing for trading post has to be considered as well.

I think we need to found second city before a move for 'henge, and I could skip henge too. Without stone it is a lot of investment. Maybe focus on an Oracle slingshot to MC and Colossus? That would mean abandon 'henge, prioritize second settler and troops/barracks (research archery?).

Without culture driver, might need to move the marble city 1S to put marble in the skinny square. Note that my suggested site for Cibola overlaps the pigs in the fat cross, and even in just skinny square, the pigs are available to it to feed the the gold hills. Later it gets the fish. Both eventually make 6 food, for a +8 (enough to feed 3 gold mines and +2 for growth).

With no stone, is 'mids out of the question? and remember, we don't have to win, just stop all but Gandhi from winning.

dV

I reckon we go for agriculture as the next tech then AH.

As soon as we hit pop 3 I reckon we change to get a worker out. All that food it shoudl go pretty quick.

Unsure regarding wonders never really go for early ones myself so not the expert to be honest. If we want city placement liek the map for the marble we need to get henge.

Sorry I didnt see how mnay turns are we meant to be doing?

My simulation seemed to be letting me poprush 2 at size 3... but that is 3 plus the city tile phantom, so maybe that is the four you need for poprush 2?
I think the simple rule is max whip= pop/2, rounded down if odd number.

I was thinking of the settler chop expoit for the forests ... make whatever it is we want, then every (4th, 5th, whatever the chop time is) switch to settler, and have all the chop hammers go to settler. Then maybe pop rush it after a couple of chops. I'd love to get started on those gold hills soon!
I agree get to copper through capital, as not much else for a new city up there. I guess that is a reason to get 'henge ... how much culture from that?
Agree 100% on settling gold site ASAP. Worker can help it by chopping or improving corn & pig. I tend to improve food tiles before for efficiency's sake. For that we'd want Agri (g_s' suggestion) & AH. I could play until those are done (or before if something unexpected happens). Is everyone ok with that?

Also agree marble city not next, as there is no food there. In "Cibola" (are you with me, C63? ;) ) growth will be rapid using the pigs and the fish, so that should be second. And we get extra commerce from the gold from our finanacial trait :D
Despite being a conquistador , I had never heard about "Cibola" before. :blush: With the help of Google and wikipedia, now I understand what you're talking about. :p

We did pretty well getting our culture from libraries last time, so 'henge might not be a necessity? I could go either way on that one.
Ok , let's forget about SH. Focus on expansion. When those gold mines come online we'll be teching like crazy. We might consider Oracle later on.

I reckon we go for agriculture as the next tech then AH. I could go either Ag or AH next. Liked AH as it finds the horses, in case that makes us adjust next city placement ... but in this case, the gold city has to get both the pigs and fish to work all the hills, so it can't be anywhere else ... maybe Ag first as its faster.

As soon as we hit pop 3 I reckon we change to get a worker out. All that food it shoudl go pretty quick. Yes, and we hit pop 3 in 1 turn.

I notice you use "reckon" a lot ... I am curious if that is a commonly used term in UK? It used to be a staple of the dialogue in the John Wayne era US western films.

Unsure regarding wonders never really go for early ones myself so not the expert to be honest. If we want city placement liek the map for the marble we need to get henge. Or if no 'henge, then we could move the city 1S so it is adjacent to the marble, as there is no particular resource we lose doing that (and maybe there are fish in the fog we would get?). I use "skinny square" to refer to the first 8 tiles of a city, as opposed to the "fat cross".

Sorry I didnt see how many turns are we meant to be doing? Typically we do 20 each at the start, 10 each later. We decided to go up to finishing BW this first round as we pretty much had a plan up to that point. I would have stopped earlier had some surprise come up. R1 is the logisitical master of ceremonies, as you may have surmmised.

I hope the quantity and quality of discussion is as good as advertised and meeting or exceeding your expectations! :D ;) . Should we be hearing from Immaculate soon?

dV

I think the simple rule is max whip= pop/2, rounded down if odd number. I misread the simulation at first, and 2 not available at pop 3, where count is pop in excess of the "city phantom".

Agree 100% on settling gold site ASAP. Worker can help it by chopping or improving corn & pig. I tend to improve food tiles before for efficiency's sake. For that we'd want Agri (g_s' suggestion) & AH. I could play until those are done (or before if something unexpected happens). Is everyone ok with that? Sounds good to me. With overlapping XOTMs every two months, fast play is more valuable than ever, which to me means no point stopping at a point where there is no decision to be made (within reason, of course), especially early on.

One choice now is tile MM ... the clams are a no brainer, but the lake is our next most productive tile, although not the fastest for the settler. How about work the lake, research ag, either build barracks or finish the warrior, and do the settler chop exploit until ag is in, then have worker farm the corn. Then whip the settler, send two warriors out with him.

We will need those pigs pastured to feed Cibola. ;)

Despite being a conquistador , I had never heard about "Cibola" before. :blush: With the help of Google and wikipedia, now I understand what you're talking about. :p Coronado and the Seven Cites of Gold came right to mind, but I had to look up to find a name of one of them too! ;)

Given that Brazil is on the Portuguese side of the line of demarcation (more or less), did Portugal have Conquistadors too? Or does you lineage trace back to Spain despite the Brazilian location? Just curious, slap me if I am being too nosy.

Ok , let's forget about SH. Focus on expansion. When those gold mines come online we'll be teching like crazy. We might consider Oracle later on. More and more I go for wonders only when convenient and not a huge sweat. I think focusing those hammers on a settler for the marble city, another worker or two, a trading post, barracks and some troops (and a library once we get writing) is just as good.

And that may give us a better shot at Oracle than we have at 'henge (although that will be a lot of religion techs to have to grab).

Sea dominance my be our most critical need, as protecting Gandhi from attack and space competition may require a lot of expeditionary warring.

Fractal maps I have generated and looke at in worldbuilder (two so far) have been one wiht 1 large continent, and one with 2 large continents unreachable by galleys. I think that GOTM 13 was a fractal with three continents. We should expect someone is not reachable without caravels/galleons most likely.

dV

I like Ag next and the settler/chop while growing plan. Ag first also cuts a turn off AH later. I agree with the early expansion over the Henge plan, with an I on Oracle later.

On MM tile use, I would try to balance between production and pop growth. Of course we intend to use the whip liberally at the happy cap limit. What this means to me.....always try to whip 2 pop right before we grow to the unhappy face. That should give time to recover pop as the unhappy wears off. The alternative is to whip 1 pop right before the unhappy shows up and follow with either worker or settler production to allow time for the wear off while not growing.

Go for it C63!!

On MM tile use, I would try to balance between production and pop growth. My point was not to neglect the three commerce from the lake (with 2 food) in an effort to max out hammers (2F 1H from a forrest). Cutting 2 to 3 turns off research (which the lake does until the gold hills come on line) per tech eventually is a "free tech", so it is our own little Oracle! :lol: Trading post eventually makes that 3 food, for a very nice tile to work!

dV

Well, it seems we reached a consensus on the key points. A minor detail is that RL prevents me from playing for 1 or 2 next days. Is that ok? If not, I don't mind being skipped or swapping places with the next player.

@ dV: I do have spanish and portuguese grandfathers. But as there is no portuguese civ in the game... the spanish UU was the inspiration for my nickname. :)

Well, it seems we reached a consensus on the key points. A minor detail is that RL prevents me from playing for 1 or 2 next days. Is that ok? If not, I don't mind being skipped or swapping places with the next player.

@ dV: I do have spanish and portuguese grandfathers. But as there is no portuguese civ in the game... the spanish UU was the inspiration for my nickname. :) Maybe Jon has got the HOF mods sorted out and could jump back in? Then we would be back to normal schedule.

MightyGooga (formerly gustavoghe) of Flying Vanillas laments the lack of a Brazilian civ ... kindred spirits?

dV

I just sent Jon a PM in case he isn't monitoring this thread fulltime. Let's give him 24 hrs to respond before we move forward. If we don't get a response by then, C63 can play as planned. I'd like to try and keep the order somewhat set for at least 1 full round of turns. It will give us more time to discuss overall strategy and what to name our future cities. I saw that 1 of the other teams named their cities by the intended use: ie, Commerce Town, Military, Science Center, etc. I know it doesn't have much flair, (I like Cibola) but it may help keep those cities focused on the primary task at hand as the game progresses.

My point was not to neglect the three commerce from the lake (with 2 food) in an effort to max out hammers (2F 1H from a forrest). Cutting 2 to 3 turns off research (which the lake does until the gold hills come on line) per tech eventually is a "free tech", so it is our own little Oracle! Trading post eventually makes that 3 food, for a very nice tile to work!

I'm all for using the lake, especially after the Trading Post. When building workers or settlers, it is just slightly worse than the forest tiles. When we are producing something that must have hammers however, we may want to move off of it for periods of time. We could even bounce back and forth between the lake and a better hammer tile every couple of turns. It just drives me crazy to look at the build que and see that I won't produce squat during my set of turns. Then I tend to want to whip something, just so feel like I got something accomplished.

So after the worker finish warrior then settler.

Is the settler going to the marble ( 1 away or 2 away?) or the gold site?

If the marble site and 2 away are we going for writing for library or obelisk.

I am assuming we don't have wheel for road.

So after the worker finish warrior then settler. That is what I think. I'd plant a warrior on one of the gold hills to fogbust it while we make the settler.

Is the settler going to the marble ( 1 away or 2 away?) or the gold site? The gold. People are power, and the gold site can work the pigs for fast growth (esp after we pasture it). We will need a second worker soon. Marble city is food poor, so that will be third.

If the marble site and 2 away are we going for writing for library or obelisk. Obelisk (now monument except for Egypt in Warlords IIRC) seems of little value compared to library ... why spend the hammers on it (unless you just have to get some culture fast). That is why I would settle 1 away from marble, and wait for library.

I am assuming we don't have wheel for road. Not yet. As always, everything to do at once at the start. All the more reason to get those gold hills on line! :D

dV

I just played my turnset (20 turns). I tried to play as close as we have talked here, but decided on some minor changes on the fly.
In brief:
. lots of animal activity. We lost our scout (attacked by panther and a bear), but killed other beasts.
. decided to grow city to size 4 while producing warriors (we need fogbusting and aggressive exploring, IMO), then whipped worker for 2 pop.
. worked the lake for better timing. Worker was ready when Agri was done, AH was ready when worker finished farming corn.
. extensive scouting with warriors revealed:
- Gandhi's location: in our continent! :eek: but we're separated by mountains north, and sea, west of Cibola. :cool:
- Sailing from goody hut! :D :D :D
- another neighbour: Genghis! Somehow I think we won't be friends for a long time...:mischief: If you look closer, we have a warrior next to one of his workers. :evil:
. AH revealed horses next to our capital. IMO, that's our worker's next task.
. after AH, I set research to Wheel. We need chariots ASAP to fight barbs, and maybe attack Genghis soon...
. I timed production to another warrior while growing back to pop4. Settler can come next, whipped for 2 pop soon.


Here is the upload log:
Here is your Session Turn Log from 3130 BC to 2530 BC:

Turn 29, 3130 BC: Barbarian's Panther (2.00) vs Gypsy Kings's Scout (2.45)
Turn 29, 3130 BC: Gypsy Kings's Scout has defeated Barbarian's Panther!
Turn 30, 3100 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 30, 3100 BC: Gypsy Kings adopts Slavery!
Turn 30, 3100 BC: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.
Turn 31, 3070 BC: Barbarian's Bear (3.00) vs Gypsy Kings's Scout (2.17)
Turn 31, 3070 BC: Barbarian's Bear has defeated Gypsy Kings's Scout!
Turn 31, 3070 BC: Barbarian's Bear (3.00) vs Gypsy Kings's Warrior (3.60)
Turn 31, 3070 BC: Gypsy Kings's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Bear!
Turn 35, 2950 BC: Barbarian's Lion (2.00) vs Gypsy Kings's Warrior (4.10)
Turn 35, 2950 BC: Gypsy Kings's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Lion!
Turn 38, 2860 BC: You have discovered Agriculture!
Turn 38, 2860 BC: You have trained a Warrior in Nidaros. Work has now begun on a Worker.
Turn 38, 2860 BC: Barbarian's Wolf (1.00) vs Gypsy Kings's Warrior (3.60)
Turn 38, 2860 BC: Gypsy Kings's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Wolf!
Turn 40, 2800 BC: You have trained a Worker in Nidaros. Work has now begun on a Warrior.
Turn 44, 2680 BC: Gandhi adopts Slavery!
Turn 47, 2590 BC: The villagers have given you the secrets of a new Technology!
Turn 47, 2590 BC: You have discovered Sailing!
Turn 47, 2590 BC: Nidaros will grow to size 3 on the next turn
Turn 48, 2560 BC: You have discovered Animal Husbandry!
Turn 48, 2560 BC: You have discovered a source of Horse near Nidaros!
Turn 48, 2560 BC: Nidaros has grown to size 3

And the autolog:
Research begun: Agriculture
Nidaros begins: Worker
Nidaros grows: 3
Scout defeats (0.28/1): Barbarian Panther

Turn 30 (3100 BC)
Scout promoted: Woodsman I

Turn 31 (3070 BC)
Scout loses to: Barbarian Bear (2.43/3)
Warrior defeats (1.28/2): Barbarian Bear

Turn 32 (3040 BC)

Turn 33 (3010 BC)

Turn 34 (2980 BC)

Turn 35 (2950 BC)
Warrior defeats (1.44/2): Barbarian Lion

Turn 36 (2920 BC)

Turn 37 (2890 BC)

Turn 38 (2860 BC)
Tech learned: Agriculture
Nidaros grows: 4
Nidaros finishes: Warrior
Warrior defeats (2.00/2): Barbarian Wolf

Turn 39 (2830 BC)
Research begun: Animal Husbandry

Turn 40 (2800 BC)
Nidaros begins: Warrior
Nidaros finishes: Worker
Contact made: Mongolian Empire

Turn 41 (2770 BC)
Nidaros begins: Worker

Turn 42 (2740 BC)

Turn 43 (2710 BC)
Nidaros finishes: Warrior

Turn 44 (2680 BC)
Nidaros begins: Warrior

Turn 45 (2650 BC)

Turn 46 (2620 BC)

Turn 47 (2590 BC)
Tech learned: Sailing
Tribal village results: technology

Turn 48 (2560 BC)
Tech learned: Animal Husbandry
Nidaros grows: 3

Turn 49 (2530 BC)
Research begun: The Wheel

I was starting to think that fogbusting was something we needed to prioritize, so that makes sense.

Now to have a look at the save ...

Nice work C63! :goodjob:

Interesting stuff #1 ... archery would be 7 turns at 0/133 flasks. Wheel in 9 turn at 0/133 flasks ... what is up with that? (After I set to work the lake tile to move wheel to 9 turns from 11).

Intersting stuff #2 ... chariots get 100% against axemen ?? Is that new for warlords, or have I missed it all these months in vanilla ?? Makes chariots the optimal barb killer for a long time !! :goodjob:

What tiles to work? I still like working the lake for the research. Could work the forest hill for 3H. Turns out that for now, working the horse for 2F 1H cuts the worker to 3 turns. Get a head start on that settler?

We may need to relieve Gandhi of Bombay if he cuts us off from those fish we need for Cibola. Or, maybe we can culture push him eventually. We are in a good postion to let him take our cities at the end to build. But then, so is every other team.

Khan might be the only trading partner that we have for a while ... maybe we are not in a rush to do the worker steal and fight him? Gandhi gets to space fastest if the world tech rate is fastest.

dV

Well done for changing on the fly when I lose my exploring troops I plough on regardless and up putting my cities in wrong place like in WOTM6!

I am unsrue regarding the chariots think i thought it might only be eypyts chariots that had that.

Nice turnset C63. :goodjob:

Logistics as follows,

da_Vinci - in the hole
Jon Shaw - fixing his HoF mod issue
Conquistador 63 - just played
g_storrow - UP NOW
Ronnie1 - on deck
Immaculate - still absent

My thoughts...It is going to be very difficult to maintain control of the fish @ Cibola, w/o the fish we won't be able to work the gold.:sad: Do we consider settling right next to the fish and give up the pigs that can already be worked. We'll need a Trireme to protect them also regardless of city location.

We may need to relieve Gandhi of Bombay if he cuts us off from those fish we need for Cibola. Or, maybe we can culture push him eventually. We are in a good postion to let him take our cities at the end to build. But then, so is every other team.

I don't think we can really consider taking any of skinny G's cities, especially Bombay as it will be one of his oldest and best cities probably. We need him to succeed! That moves me into thinking the diplomacy aspect of this game. As dV said,

Khan might be the only trading partner that we have for a while ... maybe we are not in a rush to do the worker steal and fight him? Gandhi gets to space fastest if the world tech rate is fastest.

We need to consider this question carefully IMO! If we are at war with Kahn and Gandhi, they get plus points towards each other for the shared war. We might want that situation over the alternative of Kahn warring with Gandhi. But that obviously doesn't help our trading options very much at the outset.

More random thoughts...
We really need another worker. We need to keep exploring and try to meet some more of the map. Are we going to use the settler chop exploit while we continue to grow Nidaros are are we just going to build the settler fast? Worker is going to pasture the horses then the pigs and then road the resources, or start chopping the settler? What and when to pop rush?

This is a critical juncture IMO. No need to get in a hurry here.

There are a couple of dot maps for future consideration.

My thoughts...It is going to be very difficult to maintain control of the fish @ Cibola, w/o the fish we won't be able to work the gold.:sad: Do we consider settling right next to the fish and give up the pigs that can already be worked. We'll need a Trireme to protect them also regardless of city location. I think we need two food resources in Cibola to work all of the gold. Also, if we think Bombay will be one of G's flagship cities, then we don't want to crowd it by settling any closer. So to me, next to the fish is out.

Nidaros has clams, corn and eventually, 3F in the lake. So I want the pigs in Cibola. I like the dot map idea with Cibola further south, corn and pigs in it.

I am not in a rush to settle a copper city, unless there is seafood in that fog.

For that matter, the sheep city isn't that high a priority for me either.

The marble city location looks good, except that if we need marble quick for say Oracle, then we might need to move east one tile.

We need to consider this question carefully IMO! If we are at war with Kahn and Gandhi, they get plus points towards each other for the shared war. We might want that situation over the alternative of Kahn warring with Gandhi. But that obviously doesn't help our trading options very much at the outset. If we are on a continent with G and K only, until caravels, then we will want to be able to trade with K, and will want G to be able to trade with K. If K turns on G, then we go take out K

More random thoughts...
We really need another worker. We need to keep exploring and try to meet some more of the map. Are we going to use the settler chop exploit while we continue to grow Nidaros are are we just going to build the settler fast? Worker is going to pasture the horses then the pigs and then road the resources, or start chopping the settler? What and when to pop rush? As always, we need everything at once. Why not work to maximize the da_Vinci city power concept?

Clams is 4F 0H 3C for +7, net +5 after citizen eats 2 F

Corn is 6F 0H 0C for +6 net +4. Pigs will be the same after we pasture it

Horse is 2F 3H 1C for +g after pastured for +6, net +4. It is only net +1 now.

Lake is 2F 0H 3 C now, for net +3

To max the city power, we work clams, corn, and lake. Warrior finishes in 6, pop grows in 5, and wheel done in 9. Lets have the worker pasture the horse. It is just as good for net power as the pigs, adds hammers (which are just as good as food for workers or settlers), and allows chariots after we road it in case we need that for defense.

After warrior done (pop now four), I think we would be 10 turns from the settler. I might do that next, rush it and overflow into the second worker, and go settle the pig/corn gold city. The maybe barracks or the trading post in Nidaros. My two cents, hope they make sense! :lol:

This is a critical juncture IMO. No need to get in a hurry here. Completely agree here ... let's think this through.

dV

I also like the pig/corn gold city.

So for me do we go for another worker before the settler. I am unsure. I naturally prefer the settler before but only leaning a little that way.
Do we do these first or get a chariot out before. I think we get the worker or settler out before more defense.

I think we dont need to make a decision yet regarding how to treat the mongols.

The question regarding PCG is do get the corn what do we aim. I am a big fan of a library. So do we go for writing or pottery.

When should I play my turn and is it 20 turns?

I also like the pig/corn gold city. I guess that is two sure votes, and since R1 suggested it, I suspect 3. Need to hear from C63, and also JS and Imac (if he is back yet).

So for me do we go for another worker before the settler. I am unsure. I naturally prefer the settler before but only leaning a little that way. Do we do these first or get a chariot out before. I think we get the worker or settler out before more defense. I like the settler after the current warrior builds. That lets pop grow one more before that build, while we get the horses done. The sooner we get the second city up, the sooner we can build two things at once. I think worker after that, then barracks or chariots.

I think we dont need to make a decision yet regarding how to treat the mongols. Not deciding is a decision of sorts ... key question is are we going to do a worker steal and go to war now, or not. I think not, as I don't want to be at war with two this early.

OTOH, if we do the worker steal and make peace ASAP, that could work, but then Khan will likely hate us enought not to ever trade with us. I lean to no war, but I might be talked into worker steal by a good argument.

The question regarding PCG is do get the corn what do we aim. I am a big fan of a library. So do we go for writing or pottery. I agree library for cultural expansion.

When should I play my turn and is it 20 turns? I suggest waiting until we have more input on the issues of 1) gold city location 2) what to build next 3) worker steal or not from Khan. Seems like "20 ish" is what we are doing now... if the next big decision point is only a few turns down the road (a tech is done in 2 or 3, or a city build is done), I don't see any harm in going a few over, but R1 is the decider on such things.

dV

I'm away from the game now, but here go my 2¢:

- on city placement: I agree with the corn/pig/3 gold city. Let's give room for G to grow. I also like the rest of the dotmap for further expansion. Well thought, R1! :)

- on city production: there might be a worker on the queue, but no hammers invested. We might want to time completion of warrior close to gettting pop4. I think settlers/workers should be whipped with 2 pop always. A worker needs 1 turn of normal build, then whip. A settler might need a few turns (5~6?) then whip. There should be little hammer carryover, but I agree on putting it to workers or settlers. What I don't like is building another settler/worker before pop grows back to 4 (or larger, later on). I agree on no more warriors while growing. Trading post, barracks or chariots (if already available by then) could be inserted between whips.

- on tech: after Wheel (no-brainer, right?), I think I can be convinced to agree on Writing, if that's the majority of votes. Just wanted to share with you that, if we had Mysticism, SH costs 180h, while a single library costs 135h. And we'll need several of them, judging from the proposed dotmap. Are you really sure we couldn't whip/chop it easily even without stone? We do have lots of forests nearby, and could grow easily to pop 6 (whip 3 pop)...We could time it to be built after settler...it could be even easier if we could just get another worker to speed things up...Which leads us to the next topic. ;)

- on diplo relations: I understand the concern about keeping a trading partner. And that means someone who could provide us with techs and resources. We still lack more knowledge about our continent's shape, but as of my last turn, K & G still hadn't met each other. My guess is that K can be more of a threat than a help, both for us and for G. It is widely known that he's a fanatic warmonger. Also, he's usually next to useless when it comes to tech trading. I think you're all familiar with the WFYABTA concept. Check this nice thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=206578) and realize why K is one of the leaders more averse to tech trading. By now you should have noticed that I favor trying to steal that worker. :evil: I agree it is risky, as the worker can't move in the same turn (Warlords is different from Vanilla in this matter), but I think it is worth a try. We could go for peace when available, and even attack him later in the game when we're better prepared. I think we need to discuss this (and the previous) issue some more before we proceed.

- on turn lenghts: R1 decides, but I think it is reasonable to play around 20 turns by now, or until some crossroads shows up (like deciding on next tech). For the next turnset, after researching 2 techs I think it would be a good time to save.

So it looks like the alternate map is the majority opinion at this point. That gold city position is where the warrior sits right now.

I also like working the lake to take 2 turns off of the Wheel and better timing of warrior finish with growth to size 4.

Definitely Settler after warrior!!!

Next research after Wheel?? I could go a couple directions. Writing is good, but I could also be talked into Mysticism and an attempt @ Stonehenge.

I also think I'm leaning towards stealing the worker and dealing with consequences later. I see it this way, if we want G fast into space, he needs a trading partner more than we do. As I said before, all we really need is to keep up on the military techs so we survive until the launch. It looks like there are no roads in the fog, I think we have a reasonable chance to get the worker home.

I don't have time to say any more right now, but I do have more to say. If g_s could wait a little longer to play, that would be great by me!!

Issues recap ...

Pig/Corn/Gold appears to be unanimous so far! :goodjob:

Micromanagement: Work clams, corn, lake while finishing warrior, researching wheel, and pasturing the horses seems to be a consensus among the old guard (C63, R1 and dV). Then a settler whipped for 2 pop ASAP Sound good to you g_s? (Hello ... JS and Imac?).

Worker steal ... C63 loves it, R1 is at least leaning towards it. As long as we agree that we are not trying to take Khan's cities, I am fine with it. We can use the extra warrior, loss of it slows him down, and he is then less of a threat to us or Skinny G.

When to steal ... C63, any sense of how long that worker has left on current task? I am thinking that we move a second warrior south to help escort the worker rapidly north (fogbust a corridor), so if the steal could wait 1 or 2 turns, if we are sure of that ... and that next warrior is closer to done when war starts.

'henge ... as long as we have the second city up and running, I would be OK making a play for 'henge, but I am not optimistic that we would get it. My simulation took me to turn 70 I think, (maybe less if we have horse and hills running).

If we are going to want libraries in most of our cities anyway, is 'henge that critical? If we chop all those forests in a play for henge and lose it, we don't have them for anything else. Maybe build a second settler and road our way to marble, and chop the Oracle is a better use of the forests?

Of course if we are stuck pumping out chariors to keep Khan at bay, the whole 'henge debate may be moot.

Any idea what team VQ did to have 140 culture at turn 40 when all the rest have 80 or so then? Even adding a culture building shouldn't double culture that soon ... what building, made late, could double the culture coming from the palace from the get go?

@R1: "all we need to do is keep up on the military techs" sounds easy but I think we still have to play the same kind of world power dominance game here that we always do. I think that we still need double digit number of cities, the ususal infrastructure, and military power. The fact that we don't win doesn't mean we don't have to rule. We have to be the kingmaker!

Global strategy priorities:

1. We survive

2. Skinny G survives

3. We are a world power

4. Skinny G is a world power

1 and 2 are no brainers, but 3 is the critical item. We have to be strong enough to control the game. If that comes to taking G down a notch at the begining and building him up at the end, then we may have to do that. 3 comes before 4, as with 3, we can always make 4 happen later. But we can't be reduced to a spectator on the world stage.

Narrow tactical imperative: Skinny G owns the space elevator, copper and aluminum (and Three Gorges Dam and ...).

So I think this game plays a lot like a normal game, at least at the start.

dV

@dV:
My guess is team VQ founded hindu around turn 28. 12 turns @ +5 culture= 60 culture which is the difference between 140 and 80.
You can always see how long the enemy worker will take to finish its task. Mouseover the worker shows (2) turns. That is, if we want to attack the time is next turn. Also, if we face retaliation the attacking unit must cross the river to the south (and there is no road), giving us better chances of survival.

The Mongol worker has 2 turns left on a farm, but I think that counts the turn we're on, so the steal would have to happen next turn. I have thought about it some more and I'm in favor of the steal for sure. We will want to cripple Kahn before he gets Keshiks anyway IMO, and the Diplo pluses between G and K will help G in the long run. This is actually a very difficult game to strategize. We need G strong, but we can't get over run either. Kahn is at least further away from G than our start, so if we end up giving cities to G, we may really need some of the cities in the south.

I don't think we will be able to do Henge if we are war with both G and K. I would be worried that we won't have enough troops with all those turns invested Henge. I am still open to persuasion on this topic.

Thats what I have for now, I had more thoughts earlier, hopefully, some of them will come back to me.

@dV: My guess is team VQ founded hindu around turn 28. 12 turns @ +5 culture= 60 culture which is the difference between 140 and 80. @ C63: I can always count on you for the answers to my questions! :goodjob: I had forgotten how much culture the holy city gets for founding. I can sleep tonight with this mystery solved! :lol:

You can always see how long the enemy worker will take to finish its task. Mouseover the worker shows (2) turns. That is, if we want to attack the time is next turn. Also, if we face retaliation the attacking unit must cross the river to the south (and there is no road), giving us better chances of survival. Looking at Khan's civics, he is running slavery. He may have axes, does that change our decision to steal the worker? I don't know if the demographics screen only shows the folks we have met, but someone has a soldier count of 38000 to our 21000 ... think it's Khan? Power chart suggests we have 75% of his and Skinny G's power.

They did start with two archers. If we already had chariots in production, I would feel fine about the steal, but if he comes at us with archers and axes, our warriors could be in trouble.

It is about 12 tiles to Nidaros from his border. Pasture on horses is probably a 6 turn project. Wheel takes 9, well maybe 8 as we get extra pop in 5 to get extra commerce from horses in 6. Keeping the horses from being pillaged might be a challenge if axes come up, until we get a few chariots.

If we have 21,000 "soldiers", and they have 33% more than us, they have 28,000. I will look that up in War Aademy and edit in what that means ...

I am back. First, how do we have 21,000? 3 pop = 1000 soldiers. Sail, hunt, mine, AH each worth 2000, so now 9,000 accounted for. BW worth 8000, so that's 17,000. Warriors are 1000 each, so we have 4 of them and that is our 21,000.

Let's look at G Khan. Aggressive (like Ragnar), and Imperialistic (50% faster settlers, +100% great general emergence). Ok, now I am looking at the Mongolian empire in the civilopedia, and the picture for K Khan is the picture for Qin of China! Everyone else got that bug too? Starts with wheel and hunt (4000 wheel, 2000 hunt), has BW for 8000, so that is 14,000 accounted for. Had to get mining for BW, so 2000 more or 16,000 total.

Skinny G has 11% of world pop (the lead), Khan has 2% land to our 1.5%, hard to guess his pop. Figure at least 4 for 2000 soldiers, now 18,000 known.

We know he started with two archers, so that is 2000 each for 4000. Now 22,000 accounted for. Leaves 6000 to explain. Could be three of axe, chariot, archer, spear. Or, one more unit with two 2000 soldier techs, or two units and one tech, or 4000 from a barracks and either tech or unit.

Worst case he has five units all more advanced than our 4. Or a mob of warriors. We are defending a hill, and have 20% culture defense.

Maybe we research archery in 7 turns instead of wheel? We could then whip archers in an emergency.

I think if we go for the steal, we need to be able to defend ourselves. We are not quite there yet. But archery next gets us there. Or we could roll the dice and push wheel and pray.

dV

The Mongol worker has 2 turns left on a farm, but I think that counts the turn we're on, so the steal would have to happen next turn. I have thought about it some more and I'm in favor of the steal for sure. We will want to cripple Kahn before he gets Keshiks anyway IMO, and the Diplo pluses between G and K will help G in the long run. This is actually a very difficult game to strategize. We need G strong, but we can't get over run either. Kahn is at least further away from G than our start, so if we end up giving cities to G, we may really need some of the cities in the south. See above for worst case scenario of what Khan could come at us with. Are we sure that the worker is worth all the trouble? If it delays getting the settler out to the gold, probably not worthwhile. I haven't done a lot of worker steals, so maybe I am overestimating the risk.

I don't think we will be able to do Henge if we are war with both G and K. I would be worried that we won't have enough troops with all those turns invested Henge. I am still open to persuasion on this topic. Stealing the worker probably also take Oracle off the table too. Right now, a lone archer coming up to pillage would be pretty disruptive. And if axes follow, we will be producing chariots instead of settlers. And barbs may join in as well (axes?). Might be biting off more that we can chew just yet. If that worker was not in view, would we be hating our other choices? I think not. Go for the gold! Go for the marble!

You can see I am waffling on the steal ... just not enough experience to know how aggressive a reaction to expect.

dV

Kahn wont leave any cities with less than 2 defenders, so that means the most he could send at us right away is three units, if they are available. They could be protecting a settler or another worker. I'm with C63 in that I think we have a decent shot at not only slowing down K, but I think we have a reasonable chance of getting the worker home safely. We can always chop out a few chariots if we have to. The copper isn't that far from being available either.

I'd like some opinions from g_s, JS and Imac!!

Just for the record, I entered diplo screen with K and he said: Fear my archer! :lol: I respect dV's concerns and appreciate the research he put into the issue, but pure instinct (and maybe previous experience) still make me believe the steal is worth a try. If we succeed, we would be buying us more time to build up defenses for the inevitable keshiks later in the game. If we fail, given the distance, we could be able to walk away with a cease fire soon. And even in that case, I wouldn't research archery, as chariots are almost online. Horses will be pastured then roaded after Wheel is researched.

But I won't try to convince you any further. Instead, if we can't reach a consensus, I agree to hand the decision to g_s, he can play as he feels like. :cool:

Just for the record, I entered diplo screen with K and he said: Fear my archer! :lol: I respect dV's concerns and appreciate the research he put into the issue, but pure instinct (and maybe previous experience) still make me believe the steal is worth a try. If we succeed, we would be buying us more time to build up defenses for the inevitable keshiks later in the game. If we fail, given the distance, we could be able to walk away with a cease fire soon. And even in that case, I wouldn't research archery, as chariots are almost online. Horses will be pastured then roaded after Wheel is researched.

But I won't try to convince you any further. Instead, if we can't reach a consensus, I agree to hand the decision to g_s, he can play as he feels like. :cool: If experience with worker steals tells you that the response is not an immediate rush, then I am fine with going ahead with it, no archery. Just wanted to be sure we go into it having thought it all the way through, and we have! ;)

dV

@ g_s,

It looks like we have a consensus from those who are sharing.

Important points to be aware of for your turnset.

1. Worker steal from Kahn on the first turn and escort home.
2. MM tile use in Nidaros to speed up The Wheel and time Warrior finish with growth to size 4 and follow with a Settler.
3. Pop rush Settler for 2 pop and settle the gold site from the alternate dot map.
4. After the Wheel, start researching ??? This is where we don't have a consensus. Writing or Mysticism, I like Writing, but could be convinced of Mysticism with a good argument.

Let us get the research issue straight so you can play.

I think you should play 20 turns unless something unforseen happens, in which case you should pause and upload either a save or a screenshot for further discussion.

After the Wheel, start researching ??? This is where we don't have a consensus. Writing or Mysticism, I like Writing, but could be convinced of Mysticism with a good argument. Well, that depends on if we are going for Oracle or 'Henge, or not. We have plenty of stuff to build in Nidaros without writing first (trading post, barracks)

It is 9 turns of research to get mysticism, 14 for meditation, and 11 for priesthood at current rate, 34 total turns. 18 turns to writing.

Three paths:

1. Abandon henge/oracle, writing next after wheel (or pottery?)

2. Mysticsm for a henge play, abandon oracle, writing after Myst.

3. Mysticsm, med, priest for oracle. Writing comes much later.

A lot depends on Khan's reaction to the worker steal. If he sends troops early and often, Nidaros may be so busy making troops that the wonders have to wait. In that case, writing makes sense after wheel.

If henge is built elsewhere, would we chase Oracle? or if no henge, we don't chase religion?

We could have g_s play until wheel is done (9 turns). Post a mid set save to discuss next research. We would know then if henge is still avail, if Khan has sent troops yet, how soon we get Cibola founded (i.e. how close are we to the settler). That all has a lot to do with whether henge or oracle are to be sought.

Any thought of us getting 'Mids, or without stone, is that too unlikely?

But if we agree on the mid set save after wheel, then g_s can get started (I think we have been torturing him by making him wait ;) )

dV

I like the mid-turn save to discuss!

@ g_s,
Why don't you go ahead and play through The Wheel as dV suggested and post a save for discussion. Good Luck with the worker steal!!

Ok will try now. I am not happy with worker steal but that is because I never have tried. it. I think we should go for henge after settler depending on what gets sent at us from KK. As someone said henge is 185 hammers compared to 135 for a library.

2. MM tile use in Nidaros to speed up The Wheel and time Warrior finish with growth to size 4 and follow with a Settler.

MM?

Also should I upload the save mid turn or just do screen shots? I will play this evening when I get home. As HoF does not seem to be compatible with Vista and I don't want to mess up the save.

Ok will try now. I am not happy with worker steal but that is because I never have tried. it. I think we should go for henge after settler depending on what gets sent at us from KK. As someone said henge is 185 hammers compared to 135 for a library. I have tried it since my posted reservations above, and it worked out pretty well. I don't know if Khan has scouted our city location or not. If he is giving chase as you escort the worker north, maybe go NW away from our city and then zag back NE if that might take him off course and buy time for some builds.

If Khan rushes you, feel free to ask for some advice if needed.

MM? MicroManage, as in readjust the tiles worked in Nidaros. Working the clams, corn and lake is the max output that three citizens can produce, and gets wheel in 9 (maybe 8 after the new pop in 5 works the horses, pastured in 6. Discussion after wheel on whether to chase 'henge or Oracle, or not.

Also should I upload the save mid turn or just do screen shots? I will play this evening when I get home. As HoF does not seem to be compatible with Vista and I don't want to mess up the save. Much easier for the rest of us to comment if we have the save to view. So I would say we want access to the save ... let me look in old posts to see if AlanH has a preference for whether a mid set save should be uploaded to the progress page or just posted as an attachment in the thread. (Edit: the research results are posted below)

Vista is a headache I am in no hurry to take on ... XP serves me just fine, thank you! :)

Good luck and good hunting :goodjob:

dV

AlanH posted this in our SGOTM 3 thread (no spoiler info below, but don't follow the link g_s, JS and Imac ;) ):

You can upload to the server at any time, and I would recommend that as the preferred way to do it if you want the other players to look at the save. If you post a save directly to the thread you run a greater risk that someone will find it and try to play forward from it.

Just be aware of the danger of looking at someone else's save in mid-turnset and making an irreversible move or change. That's a :nono:.

The rule is - look, but don't touch. Don't do anything that would be irreversible if you were