Let's see, JERFit's on Pacific time. That puts him in California or thereabouts. Either he partied really hearty last night or our indecision put too much pressure on him, more likely the former.

@JERFit, unwritten rule: No turnsets drunk :beer: , stoned [party] , or with major hang-overs :coffee: .

:lol:

oops... :mischief:

I thought I'd follow Mitiu's example :)Yes. Funny that in trying to recollect the example you followed, I could only remember his constructive ones. :lol:

Strategic Question
I suppose we're all puzzling over this permanently-at-war scenario for lack of experience. I decided to start researching this because there are some serious issues we should not be ignorant about (like not knowing how to win the DiploV). First one that comes to mind:

What about War Weariness?

I have already studied WW some and although it does gradually dissipate if you're not fighting, it can be a serious problem for both us and Gandhi. I don't know YET how it affects us in the permanent-war settings for this game, but it's clear that we don't want it to cripple ours or Gandhi's economy, so we need to do everything we can to avoid any and all combat with Gandhi.

What about War Weariness?
.

I think WW affects the AI much less than us. WW will not accrue for battles fought within our cultural boundaries - which is where most of the battles with G will occur I would imagine. (As a side note this would be another good reason to build the GWall as it doubles GG point accumulation for battles fought within our cultural boundaries.)

I think WW affects the AI much less than us. WW will not accrue for battles fought within our cultural boundaries - which is where most of the battles with G will occur I would imagine. (As a side note this would be another good reason to build the GWall as it doubles GG point accumulation for battles fought within our cultural boundaries.)

There is a post somewhere going through the details. If I remember correct, WW increase when battles are fought. If we have the majority of culture in the attacked tile, we get 1 WW point if we win and 3 WW points if we loose. If we don't have majority culture, we get 2 WW points regardless of win/loose. We also get a lot of WW if we capture cities. Have you seen that post? I may be wrong in the details, but I am sure that we won't get WW unless we fight battles. And yes, the effect wears off. I have a vague memory of someone stating that WW can wear off faster than normal decay if we win a lot of fights in our territory, but that's very vague.

Ok I'm ready now, I've got the file and I'll probably start playing in a little bit.

There is a post somewhere going through the details. If I remember correct, WW increase when battles are fought. If we have the majority of culture in the attacked tile, we get 1 WW point if we win and 3 WW points if we loose. No (see thread) If we don't have majority culture, we get 2 WW points regardless of win/loose. We also get a lot of WW if we capture cities. Have you seen that post? I may be wrong in the details, but I am sure that we won't get WW unless we fight battles. And yes, the effect wears off. I have a vague memory of someone stating that WW can wear off faster than normal decay if we win a lot of fights in our territory, but that's very vague.

Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=181512) is the WW thread (perhaps LC could put the link in page 1). No WW if ours is the predominant culture. And yes, WW decays over time

deleted*** repeat of BP's above.

I'm trying to figure out when Gandhi will decide to attack one of our units.

This came from ori's xml Excel sheet: "iBaseAttackOddsChange along with iAttackOddsChangeRand determines at what attack odds AI will choose to attack a stack or unit - the higher iBaseAttackOddsChange the lower have to be the attack odds"

FOr Gandhi, iBaseAttackOddsChange = 0 and iAttackOddsChangeRand = 8.

Does anyone know how to interpret this?

The farthest I can get is that Gandhi starts with the value of 0 and for each decision will get a randomly generated value of 0-8 added. But what happens to that value ?

By way of contrast, the Alex's iBaseAttackOddsChange = 4, Catherine's = 2, and Napolean's is the highest at 6. All AI's have the Rand value of 8.

I had kept a somewhat in-depth log of the events that happened, but there were some problems on my side and I lost all of them, >.<, so I'll just give notable events.

MW (Pop 5, 8 turns next growth)
Finished Worker
Finished Warrior
Finished Barracks
1-turn to Granary
Connected horses

Nidaros (GC) (Pop 3, 16 turns next growth)
Founded on turn 3 in plains spot
Finished warrior
1 turn left for warrior
Connected 2 gold locations

Scout
Scouted all Western land, defended against 2 barb warriors, defeated on his way East by a barb warrior

Research
Finished Wheel, Pottery, Writing, 12 turns for Iron Working
100% -2 gpt

1 warrior fortified in MW, 4 as fog-busters

Edit: I don't have time to check who, but someone had asked about Ghandi adopting slavery; He adopted it turn 56, 2320 BC
Here is your Session Turn Log from 2350 BC to 1780 BC:


Turn 56, 2320 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Murky Waters's Scout (2.05)
Turn 56, 2320 BC: Combat Odds: 36.2%
Turn 56, 2320 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 56, 2320 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 56, 2320 BC: (Feature: +50%)
Turn 56, 2320 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 56, 2320 BC: Murky Waters's Scout is hit for 19 (79/100HP)
Turn 56, 2320 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 56, 2320 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 56, 2320 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 56, 2320 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 56, 2320 BC: Murky Waters's Scout has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 57, 2290 BC: Nidaros has been founded.

Turn 58, 2260 BC: You have discovered The Wheel!

Turn 60, 2200 BC: You have trained a Worker in Murky Waters. Work has now begun on a Warrior.

Turn 63, 2110 BC: Gandhi adopts Slavery!

Turn 65, 2050 BC: You have discovered Pottery!
Turn 65, 2050 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Murky Waters's Scout (2.05)
Turn 65, 2050 BC: Combat Odds: 48.5%
Turn 65, 2050 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 65, 2050 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 65, 2050 BC: (Feature: +50%)
Turn 65, 2050 BC: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 65, 2050 BC: Murky Waters's Scout is hit for 18 (61/100HP)
Turn 65, 2050 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 65, 2050 BC: Murky Waters's Scout is hit for 18 (43/100HP)
Turn 65, 2050 BC: Murky Waters's Scout is hit for 18 (25/100HP)
Turn 65, 2050 BC: Murky Waters's Scout is hit for 18 (7/100HP)
Turn 65, 2050 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 65, 2050 BC: Murky Waters's Scout is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 65, 2050 BC: Barbarian's Warrior has defeated Murky Waters's Scout!

Turn 73, 1810 BC: You have discovered Writing!

Sorry for the delay guys, I'll do better on my next set, :)

That looks good - well done. Our tech rate has certainly picked up with those 2 gold mines.

A couple of random thoughts:
- we can get border expansion in GC in ~21 turns: grow to size 4 while building lib for at least 9 turns (=45h); whip 2 pop for remaining 90h; 5 turns to border expansion with lib. (Going Myst and building a monument is not quicker as it will take 15 turns for enough culture to accumulate). Whipping 2 pop is not ideal tho' due to the currently slow regrowth rate - perhaps build lib for 18 turns (90h) and whip for 1 pop is better and only delays expansion for 2 or 3 turns
- do we really need IW yet? Don't we need to settle CC first?
- we need to churn out a few chariots, workers and settlers in MW to keep our REX going.

jpc is up next - unless he is still skiing. We will give him 48h to 'get it' - then Mitiu is up.

EDIT to my previous post: I suspect jpc is still away, or at least will take a little while to catch up to date. So next to play is first to post a 'got it' from jpc or Mitiu. If neither posts, I'll 'get it' in 48h - you have been warned..... :)

Sorry for the delay guys, I'll do better on my next set, :)Nice turnset, JERFit. No problem on the delay, the most important thing is that we all stay in touch.
- we can get border expansion in GC in ~21 turns By my calcs, we can also get lib in 13t, border exp. in 21 turns, poprushing for only 1 pop-point, by chopping that forest.
- do we really need IW yet? Don't we need to settle CC first? Erkon and I figured that expanding CC's borders is going to take an eon anyway, so I'm thinking something radical--How about Maths next (15t)? We have so much forest that I think our best REX is through overpowered chops. That would also enable us to chop/rush the library in CC much faster.

We have already delayed our next MW poprush by some turns, so I'm thinking we should finish the granary, start a worker and popR it on its second turn. Then build those 2 chariots you mentioned, maybe an axe, then popR next settler.

Another possibility is a wb for exploration, but I must say that I don't like the survival odds of a wb. This isn't such a crowded map.

Another alternative to Maths right now could be Sailing(6t), but I don't see us prioritizing a Trading Post or a Trireme for the next 20 turns.

Erkon and I figured that expanding CC's borders is going to take an eon anyway, so I'm thinking something radical--How about Maths next (15t)? That would also enable us to chop/rush the library in CC much faster Well, as it takes 15t to get Maths its not really any faster..... If we start a lib in GC now, tech Maths, then in 18 turns we will be able to chop the library for no loss of pop. Slightly slower expansion but more turns of being able to work 3 gold mines

That would also enable us to chop/rush the library in CC much faster Well, as it takes 15t to get Maths its not really any faster..... Talking about the lib in Commerce City on that one. The GC lib would be chopped pre-maths in my scenario.
If we start a lib in GC now, tech Maths, then in 18 turns we will be able to chop the library for no loss of pop. Slightly slower expansion but more turns of being able to work 3 gold mines

BINGO!!!

We increase the risk of not getting the fish first (by 5 turns), but in terms of research, your idea is fantastically better, because it's the jump to pop4 in Gold City that is such a pain in the butt and with any popR we'd be starting at pop2 again. :goodjob:

Man, you're glad I'm on our team... :lol:

Math is fine, then we need sailing. We need a trireme north - west to find out how much space Gandhi has to the west. We soon need to decide on our long term strategy (evacuate or not). To do that, we need to see whats west of Gandhi. I would prefer to launch an attack on his western neighbor, but again, that depends on what we find there.

Chopping libraries are clever

Nice play!

Scout
Scouted all Western land, defended against 2 barb warriors, defeated on his way East by a barb warrior


Did you manage to get the scout to level 4? It looked like that on the screenshot. This means we can build heroic epic :D

He had 3 promotions, so thats level 4 right?

:P

EDIT: Ignore this post: my mistaken understanding was corrected, as usual, by BIGenius PIGenius (thankfully).

Just to prove to BP that I really did read the required reading, as assigned by our Great Mentor.
Buildings
Heroic Epic requires a level 5 unit (as oposed to 4 previously) and West Point level 6 (as oposed to 5)Too bad, because I've never heard of someone opening up Heroic Epic with a scout...

As I recall, we can't get more than 10 experience points with barbs.

Math is fine, then we need sailing. We need a trireme north - west to find out how much space Gandhi has to the west. We soon need to decide on our long term strategy (evacuate or not). To do that, we need to see whats west of Gandhi. I would prefer to launch an attack on his western neighbor, but again, that depends on what we find there.I'm so divided on whether to get the Trireme or even a wb out ASAP that I'm thinking we might want to prechop a Trading Post (for the +50% mvmt) and Trireme so they go in two turns after we do Sailing. Weird use of chops, but we're so slow on meeting people and gettting Alpha, that I think it might be best. Maybe our chariot will meet someone SW of GK.

Just to prove to BP that I really did read the required reading, as assigned by our Great Mentor.
....
As I recall, we can't get more than 10 experience points with barbs.

If you had done all the required reading :coffee: , you would have noticed this on page 3 of the changes thread:
I think this has been changed back to 4 and 5 with the latest 2.08 patch.

(this change is confirmed in the 2.08 patch read-me file)

I can never figure out if level 4 is 10xp or 17xp tho' (ie is a unit with 0xp level 0 or level 1?)

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

That's great news, tho'. Who cares if I read it, anyway. Just as long as the Great Mentor is watching over us...

Okay, in my latest obsessive, compulsive calcs, in 18 turns, I have us researching maths, finishing the GC lib, Big Pig-style, cranking out a worker, two chariots, connecting copper, roading to the 3rd gold and to the CC corn, AND settling CC. All that with only one chop. Beat that, genius. :D

Note the first axe comes on Turn 20, cuz I flipflopped it with the settler to get our poprushing back on schedule. He could come on Turn 15 if need be.

Level 4 is definitely 10 XP.

That's great news, tho'. Who cares if I read it, anyway. Just as long as the Great Mentor is watching over us... :scan:

Okay, in my latest obsessive, compulsive calcs, in 18 turns, I have us researching maths, finishing the GC lib, Big Pig-style, cranking out a worker, two chariots, connecting copper, roading to the 3rd gold and to the CC corn, AND settling CC. All that with only one chop. Beat that, genius. :D

Is the CC site the best site to settle next - especially if we are delaying IW? The gems/sugar/marble city on the east coast and a city 1S of the horses on the west coast stop GK from stealing important resources (horses gold and marble) and block his northward expansion somewhat. We can then (quickly) backfill CC and brown production city - and by then we might have some of that jungle cleared

Is the CC site the best site to settle next - especially if we are delaying IW? The gems/sugar/marble city on the east coast and a city 1S of the horses on the west coast stop GK from stealing important resources (horses gold and marble) and block his northward expansion somewhat. We can then (quickly) backfill CC and brown production city - and by then we might have some of that jungle clearedEDIT: Sorry, misread GK for Gandhi. NOw I see what you're talking about--stopping GK coming from the S.

Too bad Gnejs did a bunk. Wonder if he left his crystal ball with Erkon. I was thinking Gandhi's first intrusion into The Mother Land would be that grassland tile (Pink Dot on Erkon's recent dot map) next to the gems, you know, the one right there under Gandhi's runny nose. I even fear he'll settle that spot before we expand our CC borders to the gems and we'll have to do him the disfavor of eliminating that settlement...which is very badly indeedly.

The horses are also a threat, I agree, but not crucial to our REX, I don't think.

My thinking is that: 1) we're going to need 20-30 turns to expand CC's borders before we need IW, so I doubt we can settle it TOO soon, 2) we want to get CC cranking just ASAf'ingP, and 3) after maths, we'll be chopping a Trading Post, Trireme, and settler, in addition to cranking out another settler, worker and units, so we should be able to get at least 2 more settlers out relatively fast, in other words: SUPEREX.

SUPEREX is conceivable (read: affordable), of course, only because of your insight allowing us to not poprush in GC, thus keep our research up.

(and I'm NOT brown-nosing)

I was thinking Gandhi's first intrusion into The Mother Land would be that grassland tile (Pink Dot on Erkon's recent dot map) next to the gems, you know, the one right there under Gandhi's runny nose. I even fear he'll settle that spot before we expand our CC borders to the gems and we'll have to do him the disfavor of eliminating that settlement...which is very badly indeedly.
This brings up the question of where to settle CC. On the latest dot map (prev page), red dot seems to be better placed 1S of its current location to get the extra sugar and stop sharing the gold. If we settle it 1SW (as someone previously suggested) it gets the spices too - but gives us 2 poor yield coast tiles (no LH) and moves the corn out of the initial boundary. However an advantage of this site is that it stops Gandhi from settling by the gems and clams (as his city must be 3 tiles from any of ours).
My thinking is that: 1) we're going to need 20-30 turns to expand CC's borders before we need IW, so I doubt we can settle it TOO soon, 2) we want to get CC cranking just ASAf'ingP But we need IW to clear a few farms to allow CC to grow and poprush a lib (or monument) to allow it to expand borders. I can't see it getting enough production or growth without this

Okay, let's discuss southern expansion.

You like the S green dot, IIRC. This is a low-food site, but works well if we decide to settle on spices (orange dot). I like pink #1, but I doubt GK would listen to my suggestions. The other pink dots are places GK might settle, if not further N. We don't know if there's seafood by Marble, but GK does.

Problem is, if he sends up a settler and we already have marble and horses, does he just traipse up and grab gems? Or does he get annoyed and force us to defend horses?

GK has already settled his 3rd city to his S so hes probably coming N next. Can we even stop him? Won't we just get Alpha, trade him for his techs, and then teach him the arts of warfare? He's obviously going to be a pain in the butt forever.

This brings up the question of where to settle CC. On the latest dot map (prev page), red dot seems to be better placed 1S of its current location to get the extra sugar and stop sharing the gold. Sugar rots your teeth. I see GC as temporarily using 3rd gold and eventually working a plains/hill for more production. The N red dot, at pop20 gives 113g, 1 S gives 122g. Key difference: N red dot gives up 9g but has MANY more hammers for building GLib, etc. If we settle it 1SW (as someone previously suggested) it gets the spices too - but gives us 2 poor yield coast tiles (no LH) and moves the corn out of the initial boundary. However an advantage of this site is that it stops Gandhi from settling by the gems and clams (as his city must be 3 tiles from any of ours). I HATE that idea (EDIT: of Gandhi settling there). We could camp an axe on that grass tile (EDIT: or 1N in the forest). If we're too late, Gandhi dies. FK'im.
But we need IW to clear a few farms to allow CC to grow and poprush a lib (or monument) to allow it to expand borders. I can't see it getting enough production or growth without this As it stands we have corn and 1 grass, enough for pop4 temporarily. Add in two chops (toward Gandhi) and we have a library.
I prefer N for the hammers and risk Gandhi settling. I think he will and we'll just kill that city. Life goes on.

Of the top of my head, I think the southern red dot has excess food capacity compared to the northern red dot (especially at the later stages of growth). As a result:
1. It will grow to size 20 faster
2. It will support more specialists for extra commerce / research

EDIT: moving red dot 1S loses 1 plains, 1 plains hill, 1 desert hill (gold) and 1 grassland hill (= 2 food?) - it gains 3 grasslands and 1 sugar (= ?10 food - more if the grasslands are farmed not cottaged)

Of the top of my head, I think the southern red dot has excess food capacity compared to the northern red dot (especially at the later stages of growth). As a result:
1. It will grow to size 20 faster
2. It will support more specialists for extra commerce / research

EDIT: moving red dot 1S loses 1 plains, 1 plains hill, 1 desert hill (gold) and 1 grassland hill (= 2 food?) - it gains 3 grasslands and 1 sugar (= ?10 food - more if the grasslands are farmed not cottaged)No doubt about it. The extra hammers also come at the expense of food too, at least in the late game. Should we ask Gandhi what he prefers? :lol: The forest are further away and ther's only the corn in the small cross, so the N spot builds a lib considerably faster, the S location is stronger late game. Which do we want?

EDIT: No, in the S location one sugar (+2f) is also in the inner cross, so growth to pop4 is possible.

I found a quote that was sticking in my mind on building a research center. He's talking about his capital, but it really could refer to any research center, I think.2. The capital should be also very "productive". Only with a high productivity I can get very fast all the necessary research buildings - Library, University, Observatory, Monastery - and The Great Library.Taking a look at the two sites, N and S, N provides everything S does until pop15 (except for the +1f of the second sugar). From pop15 on, there are the food drawbacks BP mentions.

Those buildings and a granary will cost us 803h. The S location has a max hammer production (w/o workshops) of 6h/t, which it can achieve at pop4, still working gems and corn. The N site has 13h/t at pop6, working gems and corn, and maxes out at 16h/t, w/o workshops. That's 67 turns or fewer instead of 133 for all those builds.

That said, I must admit that the S location was where I had CC on my first dot map, so I'll go either way, as you guys wish.

Can we list the stuff we want to build in MW, and try to prioritize? That will enable us to predict when we can build the next cities. This is my wish list (in no particular order):

worker/settler pair
trade post/trireme/trireme (exploring N & S)
chariot/chariot/axemen
library

We don't need to worry that Gandhi will settle on our continent after we have settled CC. He won't settle three tiles away.

GK will expand north, so we need to stake the marble. We may manage to get the horse/gold city, but only if we delay CC for a long while. If we miss the gold (i.e. site green1), we can settle green2. That means we should settle CC 1W of corn to reduce overlap.

Sky-blue city (marble/gems) will grow slower than CC, and perhaps should be settled before CC?

One more thing, due to the growth power of MW, I think we should whip buildings, not workers/settlers. Something like:

Whip trade post/library
Build unit/trireme while growing back to pop
Build worker/settler at happiness cap

Prioritization. I think our build/settle priorities are connected to our choice of research. Here are the ideas I came up with:

1. Research/REX/Exploration focus: REX while maintaining maximum research, followed closely by exploration.

Research Maths>sailing
Build wkr>chariot>chariot>settler>axe
Settle CC
Chop/build trading post>trireme(N)>(settlers/wkrs/units + trireme(S))
2. Exploration/Research/REX focus: Explore asap to maximize research benefits of alphabet, followed by REX

Research Sailing>Alphabet
Build wkr>chariot>chariot>Trading post>trireme(N)>trireme(S)>(settlers/wkrs/units)
Settle ??

3. REX/Exploration focus: Explore asap and REX

Research Sailing>Maths
Build wkr>chariot>chariot>(Settler/Trading Post/trireme(N)/(S))
Settle ??
Chop/Build(settlers/wkrs/units)

4. REX focus: Focus on blocking GK's northward expansion at the expense of faster research.

Research IW>Maths or Maths>IW
Build settler>chariot>axe>wkr>chariot>axe> settler
Settle South, backfill
Chop/build settlers

One more thing, due to the growth power of MW, I think we should whip buildings, not workers/settlers.

Something like:

Whip trade post/library
Build unit/trireme while growing back to pop
Build worker/settler at happiness cap Having given up the pigs, MW's growth power is less, so I looked at the numbers (assuming a half-empty granary after poprushing):

Pop4/pop5, starting with corn, horses, clams, and plains-hill mine:
Unit hammers: 72h (8 turns to grow back)
Settler hammers: 112h
Poprush: 90h
Total: 274h

Pop4/pop5, starting with corn, horses, clams, and grass-hill:
Unit hammers: 65h (7 turns to grow back)
Settler hammers: 128h
Poprush: 90h
Total: 283h

Pop3/pop4, starting with Corn, horses, clams:
Unit hammers: 42h (6 turns to grow back)
Settler hammers: 135h
Poprush: 90h
Total: 267h

Two things that will change the numbers somewhat: 1) Mining the 2nd plains hill and the grass hill; and 2) +1F on clams from Trading post.

Conclusions:
1. In no case does MW produce a full settler in 15t w/o poprushing.
2. We could handle this by making sure enough overflow goes to the next settler build.
3. We could poprush the building on the 15th + X turn, after finishing the settler.
EDIT: 4. We can use a chop to get the Settler over the limit.
5. Some genius could invent a better mousetrap...

@Erkon, you were right previously when you questioned my poprushing numbers, saying that the pop could only be 4--I was forgetting to take into account the unhappy citizen. This is corrected above. I'll have to go back and correct those numbers some day...

Who's next to play ?
Sorry - I was very busy those days ( our bosses was changed ... ). :(

Regards

It seems as if jpc is away. Why don't I play next while Mitiu brings himself up to speed on game progress? Then Mitiu can slot in after me and before LC if he feels sufficiently up to date on our plans and strategy

I will aim to play this evening

It seems as if jpc is away. Why don't I play next while Mitiu brings himself up to speed on game progress? Then Mitiu can slot in after me and before LC if he feels sufficiently up to date on our plans and strategy

I will aim to play this evening u da boss, ok by meOkay, folks. wanted to get an idea of how fast things could happen if we went for Maths first. I ran an excel chart on the next 50 turns.

I discovered that Maths>Sailing>IW>Myst>Alpha works well:
- Sailing at right time to build lib>wb>trireme in GC (fish connected T33), if Gandhi doesn't expand his borders too soon.
- IW at right time to clear gems jungle for Marble City (MC) and CC
- Myst at right time to chop monument in MC

A summary:

T26 = 1000bc
3 cities
4 wkrs
6 warriors
3 chariots
1 axe
2 wbs (MW clams, GC fish)
1 library
T50 = 640bc
4 cities
5 wkrs
6 warriors
4 chariots
2 axemen
2 wbs (MW clams, GC fish)
3 triremes
2 trading posts
2 libraries
1 monument


EDIT: Excel chart for anyone at cautious or above:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/50_turn_view_forward_excel_97_2003.zip

Conclusions:
1. In no case does MW produce a full settler in 15t w/o poprushing.

My point was based on whipping building, build units during regrowth, start worker/settler. Then, at T15, we switch to next building, whip, build units during regrowth and then complete worker/settler.

Perhaps we won't get enough settlers this way though.

My point was based on whipping building, build units during regrowth, start worker/settler. Then, at T15, we switch to next building, whip, build units during regrowth and then complete worker/settler.

Perhaps we won't get enough settlers this way though.Yeah, I think I got the idea now. I tried it out for 50 turns and once I poprushed a settler, then a trading post, then a trireme. It takes a lot of micromanagment, which I happen to enjoy. NOt sure about everyone here though. With Maths, chopping, poprushing, and MM, I was able to pack in a lot of stuff.

Most crucial in MUrky Waters is to always poprush for 2 people to get the 90 hammers, rather than only 45. Also important is not growing to pop6 (until we get gems hooked up).

It's up to you BP, but if you think we can get away with it, we could finish granary, poprush a worker after just a 1-turn build, build 2 chariots, and then...instead of an axe next, a settler first, poprushing early (as you pointed out some time ago--poprushing some turns before the 15-turn unhappiness wears off, since it 3-6 turns to get the pop back up, and we'll have gold hooked up.

That way we can get our poprushing back on schedule.

Very detailed LC!. What about Myst before IW? - a monument build / chop should expand CC a lot quicker than that 30 turn library

Very detailed LC!. What about Myst before IW? - a monument build / chop should expand CC a lot quicker than that 30 turn libraryMysticism is surely quick, so that's not a problem. If we're going to put CC on the N spot, then the hammers are there to build the far-more-important library. On the other hand, the monument takes 15 turns to expand the borders, so I'm not sure if it would be that much quicker. BY my chart, the monument would be done T35, fat cross, T50. That's slower than the library if we can poprush for 2 pop-points at pop4 (that's what I'm unsure about). Otherwise the library fat-cross is only 3 turns later. Talked myself out of it. Library is better.

EDIT: Gotta tell you, doing that excel chart was eye-opening. I had to recycle through it several times, after realizing that something was much better. The second worker build now comes before the 2nd settler. Makes such a huge difference that the settler comes almost at the same time either way (because the extra worker chops, etc...). Worker moves got changed around a bunch too. In the end everything seems to fall into place, like the road to Marble City getting built just in the nick of time, and so on.

I'm weird but I loved it.

EDIT2: The reason the monument works in MC, but not so well in CC is that MC has a forest in its inner city (=45h), whereas CC has nothing very close (~30-33h, I think). Furthermore, I don't think a library in MC is particularly urgent.

We should swap to settler worker at once, build one turn, then whip, then switch to granary. We save one turn by that, bet you didn't think of that LC? :lol:

We should swap to settler worker at once, build one turn, then whip, then switch to granary. We save one turn by that, bet you didn't think of that LC? :lol:
:mad::mad:
:mad::mad::mad:

SUPERCOOL! How could I be such an IGNORAMUS! Bravo, Erkon! :goodjob:

Did you get that, BP?

Bt the way, I've been meaning to ask you two things:
1. How do you cross out words as you didabove with settler?
2. How in the world did you write that lavender-colored graffiti on our save?

Oh yeah, and when are you going to erase that garbage? :eek:

Bt the way, I've been meaning to ask you two things:
1. How do you cross out words as you didabove with settler?
2. How in the world did you write that lavender-colored graffiti on our save?

Oh yeah, and when are you going to erase that garbage? :eek:

1. Click the FAQ-link on top of page, then click "Reading and Posting Messages", then "Are there any special codes/tags I can use to markup my posts?", then "For more information about vB code, click here", then scroll down to "Strike-out" and you will find that you use the 's' and '/s' in brackets. :D

2. You enter "globe view", either by clicking lower right icon next to mini-map, or by mouse-wheel out. The small icons are then replaced. The left one is useful.

I'm afraid I won't erase it, since I bet you will do it when it's your turn to play ;)

What about:
Research Maths>sailing
Build wkr>chariot>chariot>Settler>Trading Post>trireme>trireme (reorder at will to fit the whip)
Settle ??
Chop ??

What about:
Research Maths>sailing
Build wkr>chariot>chariot>Settler>Trading Post>trireme>trireme (reorder at will to fit the whip)
Settle ??
Chop ??We could do that. I'm just wondering if we're not pushing the limits of not defending ourselves. Gold City in particular strikes me as vulnerable. Especially if we send one of the chariots south exploring. Am I being too cautious?

We could do that. I'm just wondering if we're not pushing the limits of not defending ourselves. Gold City in particular strikes me as vulnerable. Especially if we send one of the chariots south exploring. Am I being too cautious?

Buaaaaah pah pah pah pah cluck cluck buah pah pah pah :mischief:

Buaaaaah pah pah pah pah cluck cluck buah pah pah pah :mischief:
Swedish is an odd language.....

I've finished and posted the save. Mostly civ by numbers but a few things didn't quite go as scripted by LC.

I'll do a full debrief in a little while (need food.....mmmm), but here is the (unedited) turn-log:
Here is your Session Turn Log from 1780 BC to 1150 BC:


Turn 75, 1750 BC: The borders of Murky Waters have expanded!
Turn 75, 1750 BC: You have trained a Worker in Murky Waters. Work has now begun on a Granary.
Turn 75, 1750 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Murky Waters's Warrior (3.90)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: Combat Odds: 1.0%
Turn 75, 1750 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: (Fortify: +10%)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: Murky Waters's Warrior is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: Murky Waters's Warrior is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: Murky Waters's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 78, 1660 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Murky Waters's Warrior (4.20)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Combat Odds: 0.7%
Turn 78, 1660 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Murky Waters's Warrior is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Murky Waters's Warrior is hit for 13 (74/100HP)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Murky Waters's Warrior is hit for 13 (61/100HP)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Murky Waters's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 80, 1600 BC: Judaism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 81, 1570 BC: Gandhi adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 81, 1570 BC: Gandhi converts to Judaism!

Turn 83, 1510 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Murky Waters's Warrior (4.20)
Turn 83, 1510 BC: Combat Odds: 0.7%
Turn 83, 1510 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 83, 1510 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 83, 1510 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 83, 1510 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 83, 1510 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 83, 1510 BC: Murky Waters's Warrior is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 83, 1510 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 83, 1510 BC: Murky Waters's Warrior is hit for 13 (74/100HP)
Turn 83, 1510 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 83, 1510 BC: Murky Waters's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 86, 1420 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Murky Waters's Warrior (4.20)
Turn 86, 1420 BC: Combat Odds: 0.7%
Turn 86, 1420 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 86, 1420 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 86, 1420 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 86, 1420 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 86, 1420 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 86, 1420 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 86, 1420 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 86, 1420 BC: Murky Waters's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 88, 1360 BC: Stonehenge has been built in a far away land!

Turn 89, 1330 BC: You have discovered Mathematics!

Turn 91, 1270 BC: Uppsala has been founded.

Turn 93, 1210 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Commerce City!
Turn 93, 1210 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Murky Waters!
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Murky Waters will grow to size 5 on the next turn
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Murky Waters's Warrior (3.70)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Combat Odds: 30.9%
Turn 93, 1210 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Murky Waters's Warrior is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Murky Waters's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 93, 1210 BC: While defending, your Warrior has killed a Barbarian Archer!
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Murky Waters's Chariot (4.00)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Combat Odds: 26.7%
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Murky Waters's Chariot is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Murky Waters's Chariot is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Murky Waters's Chariot is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Murky Waters's Chariot is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Murky Waters's Chariot is hit for 17 (15/100HP)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Murky Waters's Chariot is hit for 17 (0/100HP)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Barbarian's Archer has defeated Murky Waters's Chariot!
Turn 93, 1210 BC: While defending, your Chariot was destroyed by a Barbarian Archer!

Turn 94, 1180 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Commerce City!
Turn 94, 1180 BC: Murky Waters's Warrior (2.20) vs Barbarian's Archer (0.30)
Turn 94, 1180 BC: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 94, 1180 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 94, 1180 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 94, 1180 BC: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 94, 1180 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 94, 1180 BC: Murky Waters's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 94, 1180 BC: Your Warrior has destroyed a Archer!
Turn 94, 1180 BC: Murky Waters has grown to size 5

I've finished and posted the save. Mostly civ by numbers but a few things didn't quite go as scripted by LC.Nice turnset. Hey, I scripted that the wb gets built if Gandhi doesn't expand. He did. Our we really that surprised? No.

Bummer on the chariot. Somebody jinxed us. And we'll never taste fish, that's obvious. Fish stinks anyway, who needs it. Good that Gandhi got a religion and it should spread to us easily enough from Bombay. That's excellent.

Good move on the mine in GC. Put a barracks(5t) there and it can be our unit producer for now. Actually not sure if we can even make use of the granary, unless we're forced to poprush for defense. Frees MW up to build settlers, wkrs, and naval.

Would have liked to send that dang warrior up N to look at that Eastern peninsula. But then we lose his 25%. Maybe send the next chariot up ther on a detour. If there's seafood there on the closest tile we could have copper and seafood in the same fat cross.

Wonder if Gandhi has any more room to expand to the W. If not, he'll be acoming soon.

Good move settling CC to the N, I think, because it can work the 3rd gold eventually, allowing GC to get the extra 2 hammers in its production.

Our points graph is looking strong. Guess you were right about handling all our mess-ups, BP!

Swedish is an odd language.....

That's the typical chicken sound in Sweden... Sorry, bad joke :blush:

You've probably figured out the highlights by now but:
- CC founded
- GC library built
- Ragnar 5 Barbs 1
- copper mined
- SW of GK explored (stone but not much else - interesting island to W tho')
- no signs of northward GK expansion

- Gandhi has founded Judaism and the Holy City will prevent us from ever getting our hands on the fish (or will it.....?)
- SH built IAFL

The known world:
149378

149379

149380

NB: Our 2 chariots are currently unpromoted. I was saving the promotion to heal after a battle with barbs (tho' annoyingly our 3rd chariot failed to read the script....), but promotion should be Flanking (NOT Combat 1) in order to allow Sentry promotion next and improved fog-busting

I'm not sure if Mitiu wants to take the save next. We will give him 48h to update himself on our strat and 'get it' - otherwise LC is up again.

Peddle to the metal, guys!

In SGOTM3, we were slow in our REX and only got beaten by about 400 years (~100 turns). I vowed to Mother: Never again.

Erkon, right every time so far, says we need workers, a trading post, 2 triremes asap. Of course, we also need 2 more settlers asap. All produced by MW. NOT including any units! So…2 wkrs, 1 tp, 2 tri’s, 2 settlers = 720h. At 283h/15t, plus 7 forests (7 * 44h = 308h, but not sure they all give us 44h).
720h – 308h = 412h / (283h/15t) = 22t minimum
Now, the 7 forests will take 37 wkr/turns, including mvmt costs. So to build all that in 22t, we need at least 2 wkrs, starting more or less now (37/2=19t). Furthermore, optimally we would like to road the settlers paths in advance.

In addition to MW’s problems, we want to expand CC’s borders a little faster than the pathetic 23-28 turns in my lame-ass, escargot-slow Excel chart, and get the 3rd GC gold hooked up asap. So the goal, obviously, is to do all of this in 20 turns or less! But how?

P.s. Let me remind you that we are all Civ FANATICS.

An idear

Thanks to Gandhi’s fortuitous help (he has offered to build fishing nets for us) and Big Pig’s genius playing (you know, sending two farmers to Timbuktu and one miner to the boondocks), I have an idea to bounce off you guys--for synergizing and optimizing--or for discarding disgustedly.
Briefly, the idea is to grow CC’s borders even faster (and chop the Gandhi forest while we still can), use GC for units, and rush 2 wkrs in MW to chop the living crap out of the MW forestland.
1. CC: Gandhi’s borders are expanding fast, so both CC workers, escorted by chariot or axeman asap, chop the forests on Gandhi’s borders (farthest first). Using the two wkrs instead of just one, we can chop at least three forests and finish the CC library in about 15-18 turns, I’m guessing. Big improvement. But we must not let Gandhi snare our workers out of the blue.

2. GC: GC is critical to our REX. We switch immediately to barracks (5t), then build axes, chariots, maybe a trireme (not YET vital, IMHO). This frees MW to do its 720h thing. The worker at “pre-chopped” forest finishes that chop, then chops the forest W of GC (before Gandhi expands), then mines the 3rd gold.

3. MW: So that leaves MW workerless. Man, I’m an idiot. Or am I a DUNDERPATE? MW is already at pop5, so after axe is done, MW builds 2 wkrs (with a trading post in between perhaps)! They go their separate ways and chop the remaining 6 forests, and we crank out the remaining items on Erkon’s list. Simple.

4. We research IW(12t) next. This gives us 2 advantages: 1) In this scenario, our immediate focus has shifted slightly more toward CC than MC and NextCity now, so we want to chop the gems jungle before CC’s borders grow. 2) Knowing where iron is may be useful before settling our next 2 cities. Mysticism will still be done in time to chop the monument in MC.

That’s it. Fix it or fuc puke on it!

Here is my Excel chart showing how to do it in 23 turns. I leave it to BP and Erkon to get it down to the required 20 turns. You have till lunch or you go hungry…(you especially, Big Pig…)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/1150bc_forward.zip

That's the typical chicken sound in Sweden... Sorry, bad joke :blush:I got it immediately. I think Big Pig is just allergic to chickens--they always got to run around free whilst Little Pigling was confined to his sty.

I got it immediately. I think Big Pig is just allergic to chickens--they always got to run around free whilst Little Pigling was confined to his sty.
Trying to repress those childhood memories :cry:

I'm not sure if Mitiu wants to take the save next. We will give him 48h to update himself on our strat and 'get it' - otherwise LC is up again.

Finally the day of 8th of March give us some free time even I'm a man :p - so I could play this evening/tommorow morning my turn. :)

Unfortunately I'm only at page 8 with reading this thread ... :mischief:

Unfortunately I'm only at page 8 with reading this thread ... :mischief:
Yes, LC is rather long-winded, isn't he?

Yes, LC is rather long-winded, isn't he?All right, El Sophisticato, how about a succinct summary of the next turnset for Ioan.

It's been a while, just wondering if you've still got it in ya.

Plus, Erkon hasn't weighed in on the next turnset yet, so we should wait till he has a chance. Maybe he'll want to do Alpha instead of IW, who knows?

Yes, LC is rather long-winded, isn't he?

And now you add to the amount of posts... Oops, I did it too. Doh! :lol:

Here's my recommendation for this turnset:

Research: Iron Working

MW builds: axeman1>wkr4>trading post (poprush after 1 turn)> wkr5
Note: best to micromanage for one turn only when you start building the trading post, so that there will be at least 39f stored before the poprush! (otherwise we're stuck at pop3 while building next wkr.

GC Builds: switch immediately to barracks>axeman (forget about granary for now)

CC Build: Poprush library at first opportunity.

CC wkrs: finish farm> chop forests over toward Gandhi with chariot guarding worker on coast

GC: other wkr finishes chop, chops forest W of GC, mines 3rd gold

2 new wkrs chop forests around MW.

EDIT2: It's probably better not to have open borders with GK until we have some unit ready to enter his territory for exploration.

EDIT: We can actually finish CC's library in 13 turns this way!!!! (If Gandhi leaves us alone.)

For anyone who feels 'verbally challenged' (like BP), I've included this picture-book summary, including a defensive stance:

For anyone who feels 'verbally challenged' (like BP), I've included this picture-book summary, including a defensive stance:
:rotfl:
I fear the oinks may well confuse the picture!

Perhaps you would like the do a pictoral summary of the rest of our game plan too?

:rotfl:
I fear the oinks may well confuse the picture! Hmmm... thought that would help keep the kiddies' attention.

Perhaps you would like the do a pictoral summary of the rest of our game plan too?You know me, that would require the whole picture book.

BTW, do you know if GK's scout got eaten by a barb?

Here's my recommendation for this turnset:

Research: Iron Working

MW builds: axeman1>wkr4>trading post (poprush after 1 turn)> wkr5
Note: best to micromanage for one turn only when you start building the trading post, so that there will be at least 39f stored before the poprush! (otherwise we're stuck at pop3 while building next wkr.

GC Builds: switch immediately to barracks>axeman (forget about granary for now)

CC Build: Poprush library at first opportunity.

CC wkrs: finish farm> chop forests over toward Gandhi with chariot guarding worker on coast

GC: other wkr finishes chop, chops forest W of GC, mines 3rd gold

2 new wkrs chop forests around MW.

EDIT: We can actually finish CC's library in 13 turns this way!!!! (If Gandhi leaves us alone.)

Sounds good.
2 points:
1. A trireme (or 2) may be better in GC than barracks (to dissuade Gandhi from sending galleys of troops and settlers across)
2. Why not a settler in MW rather than a trading post? Otherwise our REX is turning into SEX (slow expansion)

BTW, do you know if GK's scout got eaten by a barb? Not sure. He certainly didn't head back south again

1. A trireme (or 2) may be better in GC than barracks (to dissuade Gandhi from sending galleys of troops and settlers across) My initial thinking is, I'd rather not be sinking his ships if possible. Is that what you're talking about? My feeling is our safest defense is land units right now. Those units can go anywhere in our land, as needed. We need to protect our wkrs and cities. If he brings a galley-full they can dodge our trireme and land anyway.
2. Why not a settler in MW rather than a trading post? Otherwise our REX is turning into SEX (slow expansion)Because we're trying to balance our city expansion with our exploration. Trading post gives 50% more mvmt so it has to precede our triremes. Also, after doing the excel chart, I realize that the +1f on clams adds up quickly, so it doesn't really slow REX down much. Finally, our wkrs are overburdened right now, so the new cities will just be shrivelling along like parched flower petals.

I've got 2 more cities coming next turnset, boss, what else do you want?

EDIT: But I'll go any way you guys want to. When I do my Excel sheet, it's just the best I can do following a certain train of thought. There are other trains of thought, such as going for Alpha next... But if we're going to make a trireme in GC, then I think we need more than just an axe coming out of MW.

Get Open Borders with GK. Send on chariot down into his lands and scout. That means we don't need two triremes from MW (skip the Trireme going south, build that at GC instead).

GC - switch from granary to worker. At zero growth there is no need for granary and building workers/settlers will not harm growth. And we won't need barracks for worker/settlers. After worker => trireme. It doesn't need the extra speed.

MW - chop & complete axe, and garisson in GC. Get overflow into chariot. Build worker for one turn, then whip. Then start trading post. We'll get an unhappy citizen for a few turns, but that's ok. Chop the wood. When first unhappiness wears off, before growing above hapiness cap, switch to settler. Continue chop. Whip when suitable, then build trireme.

MW should build settlers/military

What is the north-western warrior doing? Not fog busting, since the tiles are busted by Gandhi... So, either we move him west of CC or south of CC. Or further north.

...I've included this picture-book summary, including a defensive stance:

Looks good.

What is the north-western warrior doing? Not fog busting, since the tiles are busted by Gandhi... So, either we move him west of CC or south of CC. Or further north.

Umm, I think Gandhi-land is only busting the fog in the tiles 1N and 1W of the warrior (and 2N - but the warrior isn't busting that one). But feel free to suggest a better placement to improve the northern fog-busting

...Erkon, right every time so far, says we need workers, a trading post, 2 triremes asap. Of course, we also need 2 more settlers asap. All produced by MW. NOT including any units! So…2 wkrs, 1 tp, 2 tri’s, 2 settlers = 720h. At 283h/15t, plus 7 forests (7 * 44h = 308h, but not sure they all give us 44h).
720h – 308h = 412h / (283h/15t) = [B]22t minimum
...

First, we only need to build one worker at MW if we build one in GC. Second, we only need one trireme in MW since we can use a chariot to explore the south-east. When GC has trade post, we can build triremes there (to explore west along Gandhi's southern coast, and to explore the secret island to the south-south-west).

I end up with 1 wkrs, 1 tp, 1 tri’s, 2 settlers, and one/two chariots at MW.

Umm, I think Gandhi-land is only busting the fog in the tiles 1N and 1W of the warrior (and 2N - but the warrior isn't busting that one). But feel free to suggest a better placement to improve the northern fog-busting

What, do you expect me to have a solution? :lol: I think Gandhi see 1SW as well. I just think we're overlapping with Gandhi, that's all ;)

Ok, how about moving the north-western warrior 2E to the hill? We can then move the north-eastern warrior E+SE to check if there is a resource in the sea to the east. Then we can move him back and thus have two adjacent warriors (good if one of them is defeated).

You've probably figured out the highlights by now but:
- CC founded
- GC library built
- Ragnar 5 Barbs 1
- copper mined
- SW of GK explored (stone but not much else - interesting island to W tho')
- no signs of northward GK expansion


I just remembered - I forgot to say :goodjob:

I end up with 1 wkrs, 1 tp, 1 tri’s, 2 settlers, and one/two chariots at MW.This sounds fine to me.

What is the north-western warrior doing? Not fog busting, since the tiles are busted by Gandhi... So, either we move him west of CC or south of CC. Or further north.BP has it right for fog-busting AND defense purposes. Erkon you are right that the warrior could fog-bust a tile more, up N, but we would lose our outer defense layer. See picture-book diagram.

I think Gandhi see 1SW as well. I just think we're overlapping with Gandhi, that's all ;) I'm not sure about that tile

Ok, how about moving the north-western warrior 2E to the hill? We can then move the north-eastern warrior E+SE to check if there is a resource in the sea to the east. Then we can move him back and thus have two adjacent warriors (good if one of them is defeated).
Moving 2E is probably better for fogbusting, you are right. The eastern warrior could then move 1NE (or even 3N) for maximum fogbusting tiles. (Defensively it is worse tho' :p )

BP has it right for fog-busting AND defense purposes. Erkon you are right that the warrior could fog-bust a tile more, up N, but we would lose our outer defense layer. See picture-book diagram.

If we want to fog bust more, I think we should move the warriors according to the yellow lines. We will get one black tile to the very east, but expose a lot of tiles to the north. I've never experienced that barbarians spawn on such a tile, at least I would presume it's very rare.

@BP: Aren't you supposed to be writing a summary, while our warriors do the fog-gazing? Or are you wandering the cobblestones again in your London fog coat and top hat? ;)

Should we try to get the two settlers out asap to settle marble city and horse city? If we delay, the risk is large that GK will steal/invalidate at least one site.

This is also connected to the next strategic question: when will we attack (and destroy) the evil Mongolians? We can let him settle and then steal the cities...

If we want to fog bust more, I think we should move the warriors according to the yellow lines. We will get one black tile to the very east, but expose a lot of tiles to the north. I've never experienced that barbarians spawn on such a tile, at least I would presume it's very rare.I don't see how that the purple tile 2S of the new warrior position is defogged. I think the probability of barbs spawning is the same for any tile, so we only reduce the likelihood (to three tiles, as I see it).

1. I don't like having those two fogged tiles with clear access to our improvements.

2. But if we leave that zone up there foggy, it's possible the barbs will put a city there.

For me, #1 carries more weight. I highly value unhindered REX right now and BP's turn showed that our warrior are holding their own against barb archers. No guarantees of course.

Should we try to get the two settlers out asap to settle marble city and horse city? If we delay, the risk is large that GK will steal/invalidate at least one site.

This is also connected to the next strategic question: when will we attack (and destroy) the evil Mongolians? We can let him settle and then steal the cities...Important questions. You answered them for me, in a sense:

I would prioritize: 1. Marble City, 2. Brown City (N megaprod city). Personally, I see our important cities as MW, GC, CC, BrownC, and MC (but only for the marble). Horse City is food scarce and far from MW. Plus, we already have horses. The gold would pay for it eventually, of course.

By focusing on these cities, we can then 1) get Alpha, trade GK for anything we need, 2) eliminate him--I don't think we want him there long-term, but we should think it over carefully.

I don't really know, but my hunch is that if we get our power graph to 130% compared to Gandhi, he'll give up hope warring with us and hope we ignore him. That's how I read the xml, but it's really about players the AI's not at war with yet. We have something different, so who knows. In any case, I like the idea of getting Brown City going so we can wield an Iron Fist.

Final Note: I don't think Gandhi needs those fish for his (hence our) well-being. We might want to get Music for the GA and culture bomb GC, so we would have 4 mega cities.

I don't see how that the purple tile 2S of the new warrior position is defogged. I think the probability of barbs spawning is the same for any tile, so we only reduce the likelihood (to three tiles, as I see it).

It is defogged by the copper tile, in the same way the copper tile defogs the ocean NE-NE. In a similar way, the tile S of the current position of the western warrior is defogged by Gandhi's sheep city. Or?

Important questions. You answered them for me, in a sense:

I would prioritize: 1. Marble City, 2. Brown City (N megaprod city). Personally, I see our important cities as MW, GC, CC, BrownC, and MC (but only for the marble). Horse City is food scarce and far from MW. Plus, we already have horses. The gold would pay for it eventually, of course.

By focusing on these cities, we can then 1) get Alpha, trade GK for anything we need, 2) eliminate him--I don't think we want him there long-term, but we should think it over carefully.

I don't really know, but my hunch is that if we get our power graph to 130% compared to Gandhi, he'll give up hope warring with us and hope we ignore him. That's how I read the xml, but it's really about players the AI's not at war with yet. We have something different, so who knows. In any case, I like the idea of getting Brown City going so we can wield an Iron Fist.

Final Note: I don't think Gandhi needs those fish for his (hence our) well-being. We might want to get Music for the GA and culture bomb GC, so we would have 4 mega cities.

So, we're only in a hurry with the Marble Settler? Should we perhaps complete the axe, build a chariot and then the settler? We could whip the settler early and accept the unhappiness? Then we build the TP and Trireme?

We will then postpone the Mongolian attack until we have CoL (for courthouses) and cats? Then we can use mace and trebs for the AI west of Gandhi...

So, we're only in a hurry with the Marble Settler? Brown City will take time to develop, but MC is more urgent, yes.Should we perhaps complete the axe, build a chariot and then the settler? We could whip the settler early and accept the unhappiness? Then we build the TP and Trireme? Unless you're planning to save the forest for something later, the 2 wkrs practically double our production for the next 10-15 turns. We end up getting needed wkrs and the other stuff in the same amount of time. We need wkrs for CC, MC and BC.

We will then postpone the Mongolian attack until we have CoL (for courthouses) and cats? Then we can use mace and trebs for the AI west of Gandhi...That's what's been in my mind. Whether we want to build the FP there or not is another question. We might want to worker rob him earlier, though, if we feel we need to slow down his development.

Another way to look at it is this: Why did we prioritize Maths if we're not going to use chops to put our economy into overdrive? It would have made more sense to race to Alpha and get free techs. Or race for Priesthood, hook up our marble, and do an Oracle slingshot.

We went for Maths and right now, when our opponents (AIs in this game and other SG teams) are putzing along with average production, we are able to rocket forward with our production. It's like a 20-turn Golden Age with all MW hammers doubled.

I honestly think that if we're the only ones to do Maths this early, we might have a huge advantage. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe it was right to race to alpha, send out wbs and meet other civs. Maybe it was the Oracle slingshot. Maybe it was a quick library and a GS for an academy. I just have this feeling that getting our megacenters going really early is going to give us a huge advantage.

Unfortunately, Gnejs isn't here to tell us the future... :crazyeye:

Another way to look at it is this: Why did we prioritize Maths if we're not going to use chops to put our economy into overdrive? It would have made more sense to race to Alpha and get free techs. Or race for Priesthood, hook up our marble, and do an Oracle slingshot.

We went for Maths and right now, when our opponents (AIs in this game and other SG teams) are putzing along with average production, we are able to rocket forward with our production. It's like a 20-turn Golden Age with all MW hammers doubled.

I honestly think that if we're the only ones to do Maths this early, we might have a huge advantage. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe it was right to race to alpha, send out wbs and meet other civs. Maybe it was the Oracle slingshot. Maybe it was a quick library and a GS for an academy. I just have this feeling that getting our megacenters going really early is going to give us a huge advantage.

Unfortunately, Gnejs isn't here to tell us the future... :crazyeye:

I like the maths path. Alphabet requires much more exploration than we have done, and the slingshot is not that powerful in Warlords. Since we don't really lack any tech, I don't think we have anything to regret regarding the late Alphabet.

We now have both production and research. With two more cities (Brown and Marble), we can spend some effort into improving the lands, building buildings and exploring.

We could even skip Alpha and go directly for CoL and Construction. That would kick a** :D

In the absence on Gnejs, here is the BP take on the future:
1. there is no-one south of GK. If there was we would have met a scout from them by now
2. there is no-one west of Gandhi. Just a hunch really - but I bet Gyathaar made this a challenge by isolating Gandhi (just as in Civ 3 SGOTM)
3. there is no-one within wb or galley exploration. More of a hunch - mainly for the same reasons

That is why I am keen to get as much REX as possible rather than worry too much about exploration. If we deny GK the horses we can kick his ass whenever we want.

PS. And anyway, didn't I predict the Gandhi-canal?

@BP: Aren't you supposed to be writing a summary, while our warriors do the fog-gazing? Or are you wandering the cobblestones again in your London fog coat and top hat? ;)
Just winding my way along Baker Street as we speak.....

It is defogged by the copper tile, in the same way the copper tile defogs the ocean NE-NE. In a similar way, the tile S of the current position of the western warrior is defogged by Gandhi's sheep city. Or?
No. Hill tiles defog two plains tiles or 1 hill tile. Plains tiles defog two ocean tiles or 1 plains tile. But a plains tile cannot defog 2 plains tiles. At present the purple square is being defogged by the eastern warrior (on a hill)

In the absence on Gnejs, here is the BP take on the future:
1. there is no-one south of GK. If there was we would have met a scout from them by now May be mountain-blocked but not sea blocked.
2. there is no-one west of Gandhi. Just a hunch really - but I bet Gyathaar made this a challenge by isolating Gandhi (just as in Civ 3 SGOTM) Bear in mind that Gyathaar can't risk the humiliation of this SG devolving into altered VCs again. For example, I think that's why Gandhi has gems and gold in his capital's fat cross. I bet Gyathaar has designed the challenge to be not whether Gandhi will launch first, but which SG team will get him to do it fastest. But that could also be a reason for isolating Gandhi (in addition to giving him turbo-resources).
3. there is no-one within wb or galley exploration. More of a hunch - mainly for the same reasons All the more reason to know this ASAP, no? The laurels will then go to the one who connects the world first, don't you think? (= Astro-beeline)

That is why I am keen to get as much REX as possible rather than worry too much about exploration. If we deny GK the horses we can kick his ass whenever we want. Why isn't he hurrying toward those horses. Does he already have them???

PS. And anyway, didn't I predict the Gandhi-canal?Indeed you did. Well, actually you predicted on his own island. Since we're technically on the same land mass, I think he is programmed (check the xml) to be more likely to build military units...(but that's going off on a tangent.)

So, All-Knowing Great Predictor, I have one very important question for you:

Why did Gandhi found Sheep City North (quite far from his capital)? Because he sent a wandering settler up there or because he has run out of useful sites to the S and W? Another reason to explore Gandhi asap.

EDIT: Alternative scenario for Gyathaar-devious world lay-out: To meet a bunch of civs, we don't need Astro, but do need to go N and far to the W around Gandhi, or far to the S around GK, or send a ship from GC (the 'short-cut')!

Our Strategy Revisited

All right, so let's be logical about this. If GK, Gandhi, and we are isolated…

That may mean either Gandhi or we will have no tech trading partner till Optics, no resources trading partner till Astro. Right now it looks like that’s Gandhi, but we could manipulate that. To control our own destiny, I think we would do best to cultivate GK as our trading partner, at least up to Astro. He has winos and spicies in his midst, so he’ll be happy to research Monarchy and Calendar for us, hopefully Compass too, and do it quickly if we give him timely tech injections. Gandhi having those same techs should keep him from coveting the techs.

Once we get to Astro, we need to make sure Gandhi’s potential allies get it asap, but also make sure Gandhi doesn’t fall behind…

A Take on Our Strategy--Isolation Scenario (CFR SGOTM2 Astro-beeline strategy)
Tech Priorities: IW>Mysticism>Alphabet>Literature>MC>Machinery>Compass>Optics>Astro (Literature not before we’re ready to build Glib in CC; Music when it’s cheap enough but not too late)
Trade With GK: Everything else we need (NOT MEDITATION).
Great Leaders: Make GS’s to lightbulb Optics, Astro. This would mean: NO MEDITATION (for Optics); NO MEDITATION and NO CIVIL SERVICE (for Astro)
REX: Limited to cities with lots of coins or crucial strategic import (and avoid those with serious maintenance).
Let’s see, what have I left out…? Oh yes, NO MEDITATION!

URGENT for Ioan!

The two wkrs at Commerce City should connect the corn after farming. Otherwise, we will start suffering unhealthiness and food loss at pop2 (7t). (Unless, we happen to connect MW and CC upon the completion of sailing in 1 turn--check this as you play.)

BTW, this will also connect us to GK! We'll find out if he has horsies or not!

...
That is why I am keen to get as much REX as possible rather than worry too much about exploration. If we deny GK the horses we can kick his ass whenever we want.
...

GK has horses already (he says he has chariots in the diplomacy window) :(

Another reason for the Astro beeline is to get the most use out of our amphibious UU.

The GS plan requires we get a library and scientists in either MW or CC asap to start generating the GP points. Building the GLib will obviously help too.

Once we have Alpha we need to trade something with GK to get PolyT, to enable us to start research on Literature

GK has horses already (he says he has chariots in the diplomacy window) :(

Perhaps he's bluffing? :undecide:

Have we decided on our builds for MW for Ioan's turnset?

Have we decided on our builds for MW for Ioan's turnset?
The Kremlin?

The Kremlin?Silly. Hanging Gardens come before that.

In CFC's SGOTM2 game where they bee-lined optics and astronomy with GS's, they did so without researching alpha (and literature). The rationale for this was that they only had 1 potential trading partner. They relied on GS's popping from libraries to lightbulb compass and optics.

Perhaps we should tech MC directly after IW? If we still haven't found any other civs we can then start on Machinery (which is an important tech for our UU anyway)

Once we have Alpha we need to trade something with GK to get PolyT, to enable us to start research on LiteratureWe want him to get Maths and Sailing soon, because then there's a high probability he'll do Calendar. Meanwhile we do MC so we can trade for it. Then we wait for him to build us Monarchy (or he does it the other way around, doesn't really matter). Once he has Monarchy, we can consider whether we need him any more or not. Don't think he'll build us Compas in time, but you never know. He'll build us Feudalism, but we'd have to deal with his lbs.

In CFC's SGOTM2 game where they bee-lined optics and astronomy with GS's, they did so without researching alpha (and literature). The rationale for this was that they only had 1 potential trading partner. They relied on GS's popping from libraries to lightbulb compass and optics.

Perhaps we should tech MC directly after IW? If we still haven't found any other civs we can then start on Machinery (which is an important tech for our UU anyway)I thought about that, but I don't think this is the same. We do have GK (and after SGOTM3, I think we know how to make him plenty happy with us) and he knows Gandhi, so he won't view his techs as monopolies if Gandhi has them. I think they'll both focus on techs like Calendar and Monarchy, don't you?

EDIT: For that matter, we're probably wasting our time researching IW--could just go Myst>Alpha now, but I'm reluctant to put off our gems that long.

...
EDIT: For that matter, we're probably wasting our time researching IW--could just go Myst>Alpha now, but I'm reluctant to put off our gems that long.

We need IW to plan for next city/cities.

Another reason for the Astro beeline is to get the most use out of our amphibious UU.

The GS plan requires we get a library and scientists in either MW or CC asap to start generating the GP points. Building the GLib will obviously help too.

Once we have Alpha we need to trade something with GK to get PolyT, to enable us to start research on Literature

Literature is nice for the epics, and since it's a cheap tech, I think we should research it rather soon. We need alpha as well to monitor the tech progress of the AI.

Normally I don't like running the capital as GP-farm. However, on this map, I think MW is most suitable. If we tech to metal casting, we get the necessary happiness and once we get calender, we can grow our cities quite large.

CC should work the resources and cottages me thinks.

We can always move the capital when we switch to Bureaucracy (man, how do you spell that stupid word?).

Have we decided on our builds for MW for Ioan's turnset?

I would suggest axe, chariot, settler, trading post, trireme

No. Hill tiles defog two plains tiles or 1 hill tile. Plains tiles defog two ocean tiles or 1 plains tile. But a plains tile cannot defog 2 plains tiles. At present the purple square is being defogged by the eastern warrior (on a hill)

I thought a plain tile can defog two tiles if you have a plain and then a hill. But I may be wrong...

I would suggest axe, chariot, settler, trading post, triremeTell you what, I'll see if I can compare this (on excel) to axe, chariot, wkr, trading post, settler, trireme.

My guess is there the same except the 2nd produces a wkr to boot. be back in a while...

I thought a plain tile can defog two tiles if you have a plain and then a hill. But I may be wrong...
You are right. But the copper tile is a plain and the purple square two tiles away is also a plain

I thought about that, but I don't think this is the same. We do have GK (and after SGOTM3, I think we know how to make him plenty happy with us) and he knows Gandhi, so he won't view his techs as monopolies if Gandhi has them. I think they'll both focus on techs like Calendar and Monarchy, don't you?
Yes, but why are we in a rush to get Monarchy? (Calendar will of course be needed for the sugar, but we have gems to be mining first). The game tech rate (and therefore Gandhi's tech rate) will be faster, the sooner everyone meets each other. So, the sooner we get Optics, the sooner that will happen. We then trade optics with everyone so that they build caravels themselves and get to meet Gandhi.

Trading a few techs with GK will not appreciably speed things up on the overall tech rate and will slow Optics as alpha (and literature) is a hefty detour

I think we should take this one step farther, and do what they do at CFR (you know, the guys who regularly finish about 100 turns before the pack). They attempt to rationally figure out the fastest conceivable way to win and implement that, come hell or high water. Their rationale is that some teams are going to try the fastest way and at least one will succeed
Dat's what I'm talking about! Who needs stinking books anyway?

...
Who needs stinking books anyway?

Yeah - burn them! And put the evil Mongolians on top of the bonfire!! :mwaha:

Yes, but why are we in a rush to get Monarchy? Calendar...We need Calendar for Optics, Idiot...oops...Astronomy.

Monarchy 1) allows HeredRule for lots of happies, 2) tells us GK will be heading for LBs soon. But I'm not saying we're in a big hurry for it.

On Alphabet, we may not even need to research it when we meet other civs. They might have it already. But it would mean that Gandhi and GK may not have it yet and might be really backwards. Will Gandhi be able to catch up? As soon as we give it to GK, he can also trade with Gandhi.

I don't know, you may be right, for once.

I don't know, you may be right, for once.
:woohoo:

I'm away now until Monday night. Play nicely and don't do anything I wouldn't

We have it, folks: 2 cities in 20 turns!!!!!!!!!!

Yup. I guess Erkon wins the prize, even though he doesn't deserve it. (Gnejs said so.)

Here's the winning solution (MW's builds):
Axe>chariot>wkr4>trading post>MCsettler(T16)>trireme1>NCsettler(T20)>chariot(T21)

If we follow Erkon's suggestion from above we have MCsettler(T7) and NCsettler(T21), we have one worker less and one chariot less, but we also chop fewer forests.

Inside the big red box you can find the two comparisons, if you even care, that is:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/1150bc_and_beyond.zip

I'm away now until Monday night. Play nicely and don't do anything I wouldn'tBig Pig's leaving, guys. That means it's

[party] :band: :dance:

PARTY TIME!!!

Ioan, are you studying the thread, playing, waiting for something, or...? :)

@LC, if you need a converter from turn to year at epic speed, you can use the following cell entry:

=IF(B504="BC";IF(A504<1000;(2500-A504)/15;(4000-A504)/30);IF(A504<=1100;(A504+2500)/15;IF(A504<=1520;(A504+340)/6;IF(A504<=1730;(A504-590)/3;IF(A504<=1810;(A504-970)/2;A504-1390)))))

Well, you get the idea.

(Actually, I've written a perl script that can extract research, builds and units etc that can be used to compare GOTM logs.)

EDIT: Big Pig may have most posts, but I have the widest :lol:

@LC You get 45 hammers when you whip, I only get 44. So, make sure you whip on your last turn :-)

Have you checked that you really get 45?

Yup. I guess [B]Erkon wins the prize, even though he doesn't deserve it. (Gnejs said so.) I love you too!

Here's the winning solution (MW's builds):
Axe>chariot>wkr4>trading post>MCsettler(T16)>trireme1>NCsettler(T20)>chariot(T21) I disagree, Sir!

If we follow Erkon's suggestion from above we have MCsettler(T7) and NCsettler(T21), we have one worker less and one chariot less, but we also chop fewer forests.[/URL]

If we're going REX, we can't compromise. The Brown City is not time dependant, MC is. We better get that city settled asap and delay Brown City. We could send the next settler to the gold/horse site as well. If we get it, fine. Else we send it to the Brown tile. With the three gold and two gems, we can easily afford six cities before AD-years.

I vote for Axe>chariot>settler>trading post>trieme

If we're going REX, we can't compromise. The Brown City is not time dependant, MC is. We better get that city settled asap and delay Brown City. We could send the next settler to the gold/horse site as well. If we get it, fine. Else we send it to the Brown tile. With the three gold and two gems, we can easily afford six cities before AD-years.

I vote for Axe>chariot>settler>trading post>triemeMy sincere apologies, Erkon, but you seem to have filed your vote incorrectly, so it DOESN'T COUNT.

Just kidding. I'm with you. But we rush the settler on turn 6 for 2 pop-points, right? Before that it would cost 3, by my calcs. I agree on the full-speed REX, but there's no point in building average, high-maintenance cities, is there? I'd rather build a couple more workers first (after your early MC,I mean.)

On that S horse city location, do you really value it highly, or are you just trying to prevent GK from getting it? I don't a whole lot of value in it. It has a max of 3 farms, or +5 food, 3 of which would have to be used for the horses and gold. Then there are only three particularly useful coastal tiles. What say you?

@LC You get 45 hammers when you whip, I only get 44. So, make sure you whip on your last turn :-)

Have you checked that you really get 45?I will check some time soon.

You are right. But the copper tile is a plain and the purple square two tiles away is also a plain

You are correct, I was wrong. How about this then? We have one tile to the east, and one to the north.

PS: I have marked the tile that Gandhi expose on the map.

You are correct, I was wrong. How about this then? We have one tile to the east, and one to the north.If we had a chariot or axe stationed in MW, I'd have no problem with that. As is, I'm concerned that an archer or axeman spawn on the near white spot and we simply wouldn't have enough warning to defend the copper mine.

What is your concern that you want to change BP's set-up?

[/URL]Ok, Erkon, I have tested poprushing with interesting as well as Berserk results.

1. I continue to get 45h/pop-point. I submit that you do too. My guess is that what is happening to you is that when you have, for example, 44h toward a worker and poprush for 2 pops, you're seeing an overflow of 44h, which makes sense: you used 46h hammers to finish the wkr and are left with 44h (although the actual overflow on the next turn will be 44h plus any additional hammers generated by your citizens during that turn). So what you see on my Excel chart holds true.

2. I discovered something new and better than I'd thought, which means things are better than my Excel chart shows. If we poprush a settler with an almost full granary and by lowering the pop 2 pop-points fill the granary, then the population will actually grow during the interturn. I thought it wouldn't because of the settler build.

3. Now for the Berserkorama. Attached is a save from my WOTM06. Only open it, if you don't mind seeing the world at 500AD. CHeck out Lowther Castle and the nearest pop8 city to the East. LowtherCastle has 17h toward a settler, the other 19h. LC can poprush for 2 pop-points!!!, which seems like a bug, whereas the othercity needs 3 pop-points, which is correct. Try poprushing LC and you'll lose only 2 pop-points and still get 135h as if you had burned 3 pops!!! Messed up, Man.
[url]http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/Ragnar_AD-0515_weird_phenomenon_settler_poprush.CivWarlordsS ave (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/Ragnar_AD-0515_weird_phenomenon_settler_poprush.CivWarlordsS ave)

@LC, if you need a converter from turn to year at epic speed, you can use the following cell entry:

=IF(B504="BC";IF(A504<1000;(2500-A504)/15;(4000-A504)/30);IF(A504<=1100;(A504+2500)/15;IF(A504<=1520;(A504+340)/6;IF(A504<=1730;(A504-590)/3;IF(A504<=1810;(A504-970)/2;A504-1390)))))

(Actually, I've written a perl script that can extract research, builds and units etc that can be used to compare GOTM logs.)This is neat! I'm not a serious Excel user (don't format the cells much), so I'd have to study how to generalize this to the entire column, but I have one question. Isn't this a converter from year to turn?

How do you use those log comparisons to learn from them? Not quite sure I follow that.

If we had a chariot or axe stationed in MW, I'd have no problem with that. As is, I'm concerned that an archer or axeman spawn on the near white spot and we simply wouldn't have enough warning to defend the copper mine.

What is your concern that you want to change BP's set-up?

We will soon get a chariot that we can/will have stationed in GC, which we can use if a barbarian show up in the near/east tile.

My concern is that if/when a barbarian show up and kill one of our defensive warrior, we still need to rely on units in MW/GC. It's better to have a defensive depth. Also, we reduce the number of dark tiles from 6 to 2. On the other hand, it's not a big deal, more some kind of therapy for me :D

As long as we have a mobile unit (chariot) free, I'm fine with the setup.

[/URL]Ok, Erkon, I have tested poprushing with interesting as well as Berserk results.

1. I continue to get 45h/pop-point. I submit that you do too. My guess is that what is happening to you is that when you have, for example, 44h toward a worker and poprush for 2 pops, you're seeing an overflow of 44h, which makes sense: you used 46h hammers to finish the wkr and are left with 44h (although the actual overflow on the next turn will be 44h plus any additional hammers generated by your citizens during that turn). So what you see on my Excel chart holds true.

2. I discovered something new and better than I'd thought, which means things are better than my Excel chart shows. If we poprush a settler with an almost full granary and by lowering the pop 2 pop-points fill the granary, then the population will actually grow during the interturn. I thought it wouldn't because of the settler build.

3. Now for the Berserkorama. Attached is a save from my WOTM06. Only open it, if you don't mind seeing the world at 500AD. CHeck out Lowther Castle and the nearest pop8 city to the East. LowtherCastle has 17h toward a settler, the other 19h. LC can poprush for 2 pop-points!!!, which seems like a bug, whereas the othercity needs 3 pop-points, which is correct. Try poprushing LC and you'll lose only 2 pop-points and still get 135h as if you had burned 3 pops!!! Messed up, Man.
[url]http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/Ragnar_AD-0515_weird_phenomenon_settler_poprush.CivWarlordsS ave (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/Ragnar_AD-0515_weird_phenomenon_settler_poprush.CivWarlordsS ave)

1. I just checked and I get 45 hammers too. Weird. I am quite sure I only got 44 in other games...

2. Yes, if you poprush close to growth, you will grow when you build the settler/worker. I don't think you have use for the extra tile until the next turn though (as usual when you grow)

3. How much beer did you drink tonight? Don't report this as a bug, please. You're running Bureaucracy man!

This is neat! I'm not a serious Excel user (don't format the cells much), so I'd have to study how to generalize this to the entire column, but I have one question. Isn't this a converter from year to turn?

How do you use those log comparisons to learn from them? Not quite sure I follow that.

Just copy the entry to all cells. Put the year in one column and the bc/ad text in another, then the inserted cell will show you the turn (from 1 to 660).

Take a look at the attached chart, which shows the progress in my, Gnejs and Henoh's games.

We will soon get a chariot that we can/will have stationed in GC, which we can use if a barbarian show up in the near/east tile.

My concern is that if/when a barbarian show up and kill one of our defensive warrior, we still need to rely on units in MW/GC. It's better to have a defensive depth. Also, we reduce the number of dark tiles from 6 to 2. On the other hand, it's not a big deal, more some kind of therapy for me :D

As long as we have a mobile unit (chariot) free, I'm fine with the setup.This is funny. The unit-depth was why I wanted to devote GC to unit building. I thought the next chariot goes S exploring, instead of building Trireme2. We'll have a warrior each in MW and GC and an axe that will have time to cover if a barb breaks through the outer barrier.

Also, this is not raging barbs. When I was testing and looking at the Worldbuilder, barbs didn't spawn very often. On 6 tiles, we'd have to be pretty unlucky to see more than 1 in the next 10 or more turns, I think.

This is funny. The unit-depth was why I wanted to devote GC to unit building. I thought the next chariot goes S exploring, instead of building Trireme2. We'll have a warrior each in MW and GC and an axe that will have time to cover if a barb breaks through the outer barrier.

Also, this is not raging barbs. When I was testing and looking at the Worldbuilder, barbs didn't spawn very often. On 6 tiles, we'd have to be pretty unlucky to see more than 1 in the next 10 or more turns, I think.

Yeah, you're right. The new chariot goes south (perhaps replacing the chariot already to the south to speedup the movement a few turns). An axe at GC/MW is fine, although I hope we can have a chariot as well eventually (axe primary purpose is to defend GC against Gandhi, chariot used against barbarians). I still think GC is more suitable to build workers than units. We then sneak in units in the MW-queue to compensate.

My experience is that barbarians come in waves with relative quite periods in between. Depending on difficulty, the peak will be at different years. And if they kill one sentry warrior, more black tiles will increase the risk for more barbarians.

Again, not a big deal. I'm fine with the setup.

I've done some rough calculations on the difference between going straight for Optics and putting Myst, Alpha, and Literature in and building the Glib in CC. Very interesting. I get for the first, w/o a GS, finishing Optics in about 93 turns (320AD). With Glib (ca. 70 turns from now), which pops a GS 19 turns after being built, in about 89 turns. I used 80% research in my calcs.

One other thought I've had. Gandhi and GK don't and may never get along. If we're not planning to go for Alpha and trade techs with GK, we could take one of his cities about every ten turns (2 in ten turns, peace for ten turns, etc.). I figure out maintenance for 6 cities will be about 15g/t (don't really know how to calc this), so that warring ought to pay for 100% reserch, which might get us to Optics about 10-15 turns sooner.

So we have:
1. Straight to Optics/war on GK = Optics in 75-80 turns w/o GS
2. Glib/trading GK Alpha so he can trade with Gandhi/then war on GK = Optics in less than 90 turns.

But we don't need to decide before finishing IW.

EDIT: Now I can add this. We ought to have CC fully functioning in 28 turns (2 gems mines) and around turn 35-38 at pop5, so we could also hire 2 scientists to pop a GS in 25 turns. Then we couldfinish Optics, at 80% research in about 70 turns (~55BC), if I'm not mistaken.

Please skip me this turn - if didn't do it already. I couldn't read & understand fully the previous discussion. :(

Regards

I've done some rough calculations on the difference between going straight for Optics and putting Myst, Alpha, and Literature in and building the Glib in CC. Very interesting. I get for the first, w/o a GS, finishing Optics in about 93 turns (320AD). With Glib (ca. 70 turns from now), which pops a GS 19 turns after being built, in about 89 turns. I used 80% research in my calcs.
...
EDIT: Now I can add this. We ought to have CC fully functioning in 28 turns (2 gems mines) and around turn 35-38 at pop5, so we could also hire 2 scientists to pop a GS in 25 turns. Then we couldfinish Optics, at 80% research in about 70 turns (~55BC), if I'm not mistaken.

@LC, why do you want to use CC as GP-farm? MW is more suitable for that: more food tiles to employ librarians, and more production tiles to build wonders when necessary.

CC should run cottages, not farms, yes?

Please skip me this turn - if didn't do it already. I couldn't read & understand fully the previous discussion. :(

Regards

Sorry for all the confusing posts! :blush:

LC, will you play until IW is completed?

Please skip me this turn - if didn't do it already. I couldn't read & understand fully the previous discussion. :(Okay, Ioan. Let us know when you're ready. Is there anything we could do to help? I encourage BP to write a summary for you when he gets back on Monday, okay?
We save one turn by that, bet you didn't think of that LC? :lol:Okay, Bright Eyes, here's one for you. If we do Mysticism next, we can finish Sailing in 2 turns (30% res for 1t), then go 100% for 3 turns, we get 3 beakers more! Ha! Over to you.
@LC, why do you want to use CC as GP-farm? MW is more suitable for that: more food tiles to employ librarians, and more production tiles to build wonders when necessary.

CC should run cottages, not farms, yes?Two things here:
1) Where to build GLib. My idea on GLib is to get the 2 free scientists there because I see CC (misnomer) as our research center.
2) Where to pop the first GS. Probably better in MW as you say, it's just that we're using it to REX right now and I was thinking that CC only "needs" to work the corn and 2 gems. In other words, we sacrifice 25 turns of growing two cottages to get to Optics 15-20 turns faster. I haven't compared that to doing it in MW and sacrificing whatever we would there. I think we need more than 1 GS ASAP anyway, because we would also want one for Academy in CC and at least one for lightbulbing Astro, so we probably end up popping them in 2 or 3 cities, if we're going that way. These are all things we haven't really addressed, alas.

LC, will you play until IW is completed?Yes, I can do that. I was thinking maybe I should do IW and then Mysticism? (We need a monument in Marble City, right? Or slow-go a library?) That's about 15-16 turns and would leave us at a good junction point. Unless something catastrophic happens, of course, in which case I'm bailing mid-turn... (Buaaaaah pah pah pah pah cluck cluck buah pah pah pah)

EDIT: So..."Got it!"

EDIT2: BTW, we will be able to trade resources with GK in a few turns. I may do that. Furthermore, I intend to cowtow to his threats if he demands something...especially he he wants me to DOW Gandhi...:lol: :lol: :lol: I don't him DOWing us in the near future.

...
Okay, Bright Eyes, here's one for you. If we do Mysticism next, we can finish Sailing in 2 turns (30% res for 1t), then go 100% for 3 turns, we get 3 beakers more! Ha! Over to you. I thought Warlords kept track of fractional beakers, or what do you mean?
Two things here:
1) Where to build GLib. My idea on GLib is to get the 2 free scientists there because I see CC (misnomer) as our research center.
2) Where to pop the first GS. Probably better in MW as you say, it's just that we're using it to REX right now and I was thinking that CC only "needs" to work the corn and 2 gems. In other words, we sacrifice 25 turns of growing two cottages to get to Optics 15-20 turns faster. I haven't compared that to doing it in MW and sacrificing whatever we would there. I think we need more than 1 GS ASAP anyway, because we would also want one for Academy in CC and at least one for lightbulbing Astro, so we probably end up popping them in 2 or 3 cities, if we're going that way. These are all things we haven't really addressed, alas.

Yes, I can do that. I was thinking maybe I should do IW and then Mysticism? (We need a monument in Marble City, right? Or slow-go a library?) That's about 15-16 turns and would leave us at a good junction point. Unless something catastrophic happens, of course, in which case I'm bailing mid-turn... (Buaaaaah pah pah pah pah cluck cluck buah pah pah pah)

EDIT: So..."Got it!"

EDIT2: BTW, we will be able to trade resources with GK in a few turns. I may do that. Furthermore, I intend to cowtow to his threats if he demands something...especially he he wants me to DOW Gandhi...:lol: :lol: :lol: I don't him DOWing us in the near future.

CC should focus on commerce (not necessarily research) as opposed to a city that focus on great people (farms vs cottages). This means that CC does not need much production, which a GP-farms needs.

So, I think GLib should be built in MW. MW will soon stop building settlers, and there's not much we can whip, so we want another pop-limiter (scientists).

Running scientists does not only delay cottages, it also delays growth. And if we're going for an academy in CC (which is a great idea), then we should defininately go for growth/cottages in CC => GP-farm in MW.

I'm not convinced we should research Mysticism, so please play until IW is completed. Then you can continue after a short discussion if you want. I think we should build a library in MC, not obelisk.

Just my thoughts. :D

Okay, guys. Pretty eventless turnset. Lost a S warrior, settled MC right under GKsettler's nose, so he went to the midland site that I liked so much. S horses are still available. Gandhi's border's expanded 1 turn before I finished a 20h chop :mad:. Pretty much finished exploring our continent, not much new. We have iron on plains/hill in Brown City inner cross! GK has iron and horses but no copper.

I finished IW and Mysticism (sry Erkon, I forgot to check back with you...but it was just 1 turn at 100% research, although I did it so we minimized beaker loss, 2t).

CC should be able to poprush library next turn. 2 wkrs will be able to chop the gems jungle in prep for border exapnsion and mining.

MW just finished the trading post. Trireme in 2 turns or settler (X turns), if we want to try to get the horses.

GC only has axeman for defense right now, because the warrior went to protect the Gandhi wkrs.

There's a barb warrior up N who might try to sneak past our warrior, but I doubt it.

Gandhi hasn't sent out any galleys or triremes yet. GK has 3 archers in his capital.

Turnlog:Here is your Session Turn Log from 1150 BC to 850 BC:

Turn 95, 1150 BC: You have discovered Sailing!

Turn 99, 1030 BC: The borders of Gold City have expanded!
Turn 99, 1030 BC: The Oracle has been built in a far away land!

Turn 101, 985 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Murky Waters's Warrior (4.70)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Combat Odds: 11.2%
Turn 101, 985 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 101, 985 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 101, 985 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 101, 985 BC: (Combat: +25%)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Murky Waters's Warrior is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Murky Waters's Warrior is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Murky Waters's Warrior is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Murky Waters's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 101, 985 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Murky Waters's Warrior (3.60)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Combat Odds: 3.0%
Turn 101, 985 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 101, 985 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 101, 985 BC: (Feature: +20%)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Murky Waters's Warrior is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Murky Waters's Warrior is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Murky Waters's Warrior is hit for 15 (55/100HP)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Murky Waters's Warrior is hit for 15 (40/100HP)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Murky Waters's Warrior is hit for 15 (25/100HP)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Murky Waters's Warrior is hit for 15 (10/100HP)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Murky Waters's Warrior is hit for 15 (0/100HP)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Barbarian's Warrior has defeated Murky Waters's Warrior!

Turn 104, 940 BC: You have trained a Worker in Gold City. Work has now begun on a Granary.
Turn 104, 940 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.08) vs Murky Waters's Chariot (5.00)
Turn 104, 940 BC: Combat Odds: 0.1%
Turn 104, 940 BC: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 104, 940 BC: (City Barbarian Defense: +25%)
Turn 104, 940 BC: Murky Waters's Chariot is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 104, 940 BC: Murky Waters's Chariot is hit for 13 (74/100HP)
Turn 104, 940 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (58/100HP)
Turn 104, 940 BC: Murky Waters's Chariot is hit for 13 (61/100HP)
Turn 104, 940 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (29/100HP)
Turn 104, 940 BC: Murky Waters's Chariot is hit for 13 (48/100HP)
Turn 104, 940 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 104, 940 BC: Murky Waters's Chariot has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 105, 925 BC: Marble City has been founded.

Turn 107, 895 BC: You have discovered Iron Working!

Turn 108, 880 BC: Genghis Khan converts to Judaism!

Turn 109, 865 BC: You have discovered Mysticism!

Turn 110, 850 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 44 ? for Murky Waters.

... settled MC right under GKsettler's nose, so he went to the midland site that I liked so much.
...
I finishe