Good idea on bulbing Mach instead of Optics. 'Twould be nice if we got Calendar in the next 5 turns. One other question is: how much of Machinery will the lightbulb cover? All of itI guess we should play till we finish Compass, stop and make a decision.
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At the current 70%, Machinery is 16 turns, at 50% it's 21 turns. On the other hand, Calendar (8t) is, in essence, a total waste of 793 beakers. I think (a chariot can check) Old and New Sarai have 2-3 archers each. What will we need to take each one? That income (X) will put our research at 100% for X/~30g turns. I assume X will be about 100g/city, at least, right?

Plus, we're already running the risk of GK getting LBs. BTW, what turn did he finish Calendar on?
I see your point about Calendar being a waste to research as we will easily be able to trade for it (eventually). However I would prefer to use the 2 GSs to bulb Machinery and Optics in order to get caravels asap - although maybe an 8t dielay is not such a big deal

GK got Calendar early into my turnset - maybe 9-10 turns ago?

A Delhi ship can mave through Bombay, or did you mean something else?Sorry, I was unclear. I meant our trireme which is 5 tiles west of Commerce City blocking the southern tip of Gandhi-land
Who's building the Internet? We? Or Gandhi?
That raises an important point. The internet is a project, not a wonder - therefore we probably can't give it away by losing the city it was built in. (I can test tonight) Building the 3GD and SE will still be useful tho'
We need Optics asap. We don't need astronomy asap. I would estimate that there will be 100 turns in between (to find all AI, scout their lands and build the army).True (although the trade will help our economy, and the ability to build observatories will be useful). So you would use the GS's on Machinery and Optics then? That will get Optics somewhat quicker (ie in 17 turns) but will delay Astronomy

If we're unlucky, all AI will be on an island with the same religion.Hinduism, Buddhism, and Confucianism were all founded in an unkown city, and we haven't seen any of them spread from Gandhi's one hidden city, so...
Both HE and NE will polute the GS points.But NE will give us 2x the number of GLs with far less chance of any one being a GA. 3 out of 4 GS's is better than 2 GS's, no? (Getting them later on in the game is of questionable use to us, isn't it? The sooner the better.)
That raises an important point. The internet is a project, not a wonder - therefore we probably can't give it away by losing the city it was built in. You are right, BP. Once we build the internet, we don't lose it with the loss of the city and only we ever benefit from it.... That shoots that idea all to hell.

So I guess we're back to our original plan of evacuating asap, which means Optics asap, whatever that takes. I think we should play to Compass (5t) and re-evaluate the situation.

We need Optics asap. We don't need astronomy asap. ??? I would estimate that there will be 100 turns in between (to find all AI, scout their lands and build the army). I would prefer an attack with treb/mace/pike/elephants/horse archers instead of cats & swords. In any case, we need CoL and Construction. Don't you mean Civil Service (Berserkers) and Construction?

Every turn we delay the invasion will cost. We know that CoL has already been discovered, so all we will need to research after Optics is Constr (8t) and CS (22t) at the most. Then we want Astro. Furthermore, I think it's very likely we'll find at least one AI with only archers and whatnot. Easy pickings, if we want a foothold somewhere.

But if we want to be able to build cats and Berserkers (we don't have any cash to upgrade), then we really need to develop Brown City asap, because that city will be able to crank them out fast. It could have Heroic Epic in it, if we want to spend that Wonder now (not keep it for our future home--or can we build it twice?).

Plus, BP is right about our financial picture, it's rapidly degrading with every unit we build. I think we need to make our military actions clean and effective.

...
That raises an important point. The internet is a project, not a wonder - therefore we probably can't give it away by losing the city it was built in. No, we can't "loose" the Internet
...
True (although the trade will help our economy, and the ability to build observatories will be useful). So you would use the GS's on Machinery and Optics then? That will get Optics somewhat quicker (ie in 17 turns) but will delay Astronomy
After we get Astronomy I prefer to build only units, then kill, KILL, KILL!!!!! :lol:

Yes, I prefer lightbulbing Machinery and Optics.

We know that CoL has already been discovered, so all we will need to research after Optics is Constr (8t) and CS (22t) at the most. Then we want Astro. We cannot tech CS if we want to bulb Astronomy with any subsequent GS's (or we will get paper from our GS)
But if we want to be able to build cats and Berserkers (we don't have any cash to upgrade), then we really need to develop Brown City asap, because that city will be able to crank them out fast. It could have Heroic Epic in it, if we want to spend that Wonder now (not keep it for our future home--or can we build it twice?).
I think Nat Wonders can only be built once - if you lose them, too bad.

We need Optics asap. We don't need astronomy asap. ???

Exploring the world will take a while, and we also want Gandhi to get Optics as quick as possible. So, we trade Optics to GK, then attack. And we must ensure that GK does not get in contact with other AI, and ensure that he trade Optics to Gandhi.
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In any case, we need CoL and Construction. Don't you mean Civil Service (Berserkers) and Construction?

No, I mean we nee CoL for the courthouses. The next step is Engineering and Civil Service.

We know that CoL has already been discovered, so all we will need to research after Optics is Constr (8t) and CS (22t) at the most. Then we want Astro. Furthermore, I think it's very likely we'll find at least one AI with only archers and whatnot. Easy pickings, if we want a foothold somewhere.
...

So, how about shutting down research after Optics and save gold for unit support / later 100% research?

@Erkon: I'm not so sure GK would trade Optics with Gandhi. We would need to give GK Compass, MC, Machinery and Optics - what would G have that he could trade for all those with GK?

We cannot tech CS if we want to bulb Astronomy with any subsequent GS's (or we will get paper from our GS).This for me is another reason to crank out GL's asap and risk the poluted gene pool. I don't see any need to turn out a whole lot of Swords from MW, if what we really want is Berserkers and cats. Just kills our research. So we have a production window to build the NatEpic (14t or less with 1 more mine). That gets it done after our next GS (keep him pure for sure).
So, how about shutting down research after Optics and save gold for unit support / later 100% research?Okay, Murky Erkon. It's great you're Murkifying everything, but I'm not following you... :) . Do you mean shut it down while we beat up on GK, build CHs, meet others, and slow-build another GS or what?

Okay, two additional thoughts: CoL gives us Caste System, so we could build units elsewhere and run a bucket load of scientists, in stead of building NE.

If we can get a Great General and put him in MW, then all our naval units will start with 2XP and will be able to Nav II for +2 mvmt points! How much kill'emall do we need to do for that?

This for me is another reason to crank out GL's asap and risk the poluted gene pool. I don't see any need to turn out a whole lot of Swords from MW, if what we really want is Berserkers and cats. Just kills our research. So we have a production window to build the NatEpic (14t or less with 1 more mine). That gets it done after our next GS (keep him pure for sure).
Okay, two additional thoughts: CoL gives us Caste System, so we could build units elsewhere and run a bucket load of scientists, in stead of building NE.
A combination of CasteSystem and Nat Epic would be particularly kickass for getting Astronomy from GS's while we tech CoL, construction etc
If we can get a Great General and put him in MW, then all our naval units will start with 2XP and will be able to Nav II for +2 mvmt points! How much kill'emall do we need to do for that?
I think 1st one is 25 or 30 battles (check on the bottom left of the Mil Advisor screen). Sadly battles with barbs and animals don't count tho'

@Erkon: I'm not so sure GK would trade Optics with Gandhi. We would need to give GK Compass, MC, Machinery and Optics - what would G have that he could trade for all those with GK?

We can trade/gift MC and Compass to GK, then we attack and capture all but one (worthless) city. Then we make peace, gift him Machinery, then Optics and declare after 10 turns. We withdraw and hope he moves units into our borders (to double Great General points). Since he doesn't have any research, he will eventually trade with Gandhi. Then we hope that GK will trade his tech to Gandhi for new tech. We can later gift all tech to GK that we want Gandhi to receive.

We can trade/gift MC and Compass to GK, then we attack and capture all but one (worthless) city. Then we make peace, gift him Machinery, then Optics and declare after 10 turns. We withdraw and hope he moves units into our borders (to double Great General points). Since he doesn't have any research, he will eventually trade with Gandhi. Then we hope that GK will trade his tech to Gandhi for new tech. We can later gift all tech to GK that we want Gandhi to receive.
Interesting idea :goodjob: Meanwhile we avoid trading Optics to any of the other AIs we meet so that GK can't trade with them?

This for me is another reason to crank out GL's asap and risk the poluted gene pool. I don't see any need to turn out a whole lot of Swords from MW, if what we really want is Berserkers and cats. Just kills our research. So we have a production window to build the NatEpic (14t or less with 1 more mine). That gets it done after our next GS (keep him pure for sure).
Okay, Murky Erkon. It's great you're Murkifying everything, but I'm not following you... :) . Do you mean shut it down while we beat up on GK, build CHs, meet others, and slow-build another GS or what?

Okay, two additional thoughts: CoL gives us Caste System, so we could build units elsewhere and run a bucket load of scientists, in stead of building NE.

If we can get a Great General and put him in MW, then all our naval units will start with 2XP and will be able to Nav II for +2 mvmt points! How much kill'emall do we need to do for that?

It's all about timing. If we only face archers, we can capture 20% cities on plains with perhaps two swords loss / city. We need catapults for capital and hills, but then swords will be enough as well. I just want to keep different options open, the most favourable approach is not yet clear to me.

If we shut down research after optics, and get two/three/four caravels out (one/two west and one/two east), we can save up gold until we have met other AI, traded for what we want/can (construction, CoL etc), then use the money for either 100% research or maintaining a large army. If we want good value for our tech, we should try to be just one step behind the tech leader in the game. That way, we can get most out of the trade.

Caste is nice to run when capturing cities as well (better or worse than slavery is up to debate though).

We need 30 XP to get our first General. That takes about 20 wins.

I think 1st one is 25 or 30 battles So it merely counts battles, taking a city is just one of the battles?
We can trade/gift MC and Compass to GK, then we attack and capture all but one (worthless) city. Then we make peace, gift him Machinery, then Optics and declare after 10 turns. We withdraw and hope he moves units into our borders (to double Great General points). Since he doesn't have any research, he will eventually trade with Gandhi. Then we hope that GK will trade his tech to Gandhi for new tech. We can later gift all tech to GK that we want Gandhi to receive.So: 1) We want to DOW GK before he DOWs Gandhi for some idiotic reason. 2) We need to prioritize Karakorum (GWall). 3) What if Gandhi decides to take GK and his one little city out? Interesting idea :goodjob: Meanwhile we avoid trading Optics to any of the other AIs we meet so that GK can't trade with them?I'm wondering why we want to slow down the other AIs. If we're planning to leave this continent anyway, we're probably going to leave Gandhi with by far the best research engine. So eventually he'll leave other AIs behind. If they get a head start on him, that will happen later than sooner, so other AIs will be useful to Gandhi longer, which is what we want, right?

Timing

So in terms of timing, what do we want to do in the next 5-10-15 turns? DO we want to attack the barb city or prep for GK or what?

So it merely counts battles, taking a city is just one of the battles?
So: 1) We want to DOW GK before he DOWs Gandhi for some idiotic reason. 2) We need to prioritize Karakorum (GWall). 3) What if Gandhi decides to take GK and his one little city out? I'm wondering why we want to slow down the other AIs. If we're planning to leave this continent anyway, we're probably going to leave Gandhi with by far the best research engine. So eventually he'll leave other AIs behind. If they get a head start on him, that will happen later than sooner, so other AIs will be useful to Gandhi longer, which is what we want, right?

You get a General when you have accumulated 30 XP. High % wins give one XP, mid % sometimes give two XP and low % wins give three or more. It's the same mechanism as in Vanilla Civ.

We can check how close GK is to DoW on Gandhi. Hoover the attack option: we will never betray old friends is best; we have nothing to gain is also a good sign. The AI will DoW if he smells weakness and/or notice a weak front city.

If we're going for the capital we either need lots of units, or cats, or both :( We can take satellite cities with swords alone. Again, it's depending on timing.

Gandhi will not DoW GK if they are pleased or above, and if Gandhi makes that move on cautious... well, then he probably has passed us in research anyway...

It's a fine balance to ensure that Gandhi is about the same tech level as the others. I guess we'll have to decide on this issue when we know how advanced the others are. If they're too advance, perhaps we can bribe them into war with each others. If they're behind, we can gift them tech.

Timing

So in terms of timing, what do we want to do in the next 5-10-15 turns? DO we want to attack the barb city or prep for GK or what?

I vote for preparing for war with GK. If he doesn't want to trade calender with us, we have no use for him.

So it merely counts battles, taking a city is just one of the battles? Actually as Erkon said, it is xp not battles (crosspost!)

...
I'm wondering why we want to slow down the other AIs. If we're planning to leave this continent anyway, we're probably going to leave Gandhi with by far the best research engine. So eventually he'll leave other AIs behind. If they get a head start on him, that will happen later than sooner, so other AIs will be useful to Gandhi longer, which is what we want, right?
We need to be clever with our tech trading with the other AIs. Remember we need to leave at least one weak enough to roll over - preferably the one with the Hindu holy city and the Pathenon! Once we start meeting them, we should carefully discuss which techs to trade or not

Hi all. Finally back from vacation. I guess there is a couple of hundred posts to read in order to catch up with what has been happening. But it blatantly obvious that Erkon has screwed up again, right? :p

Will try to catch up as soon as I can.

If we are going for GK, I would like to have a trireme posted on the north coast (NW of barb city) to stop any Gandhi settlers coming that way. Then we can stop worrying about the possibility of G settling the empty spaces. It is a pity we are delaying building BC tho'

Move the spear and axe on the marble to join the chariot from gold hill (+maybe another spear) and get them close to GK's horses and food resources. That force should be able to pillage without any problems

Do not forget to build 2 scouts prior to popping Compass. The chance of free techs from Goody Huts is important, and they can be quickly built even in low production cities like CC

Hi all. Finally back from vacation. I guess there is a couple of hundred posts to read in order to catch up with what has been happening. But it blatantly obvious that Erkon has screwed up again, right? :p Actually, he was AWOL playing the GOTM, so I guess it must have been BP's fault. He played last.

Hope you had a whale of a time! :lol:

Actually, he was AWOL playing the GOTM, so I guess it must have been BP's fault. He played last.

Hope you had a whale of a time! :lol:

Actually, if you check out the score graph you will see that LC and Erkon has us bumbling along in the middle of the pack - it is only thanks to JERFit and myself that we are now beating CRC ;)

Welcome back!

If we are going for GK, I would like to have a trireme posted on the north coast (NW of barb city) to stop any Gandhi settlers coming that way. Then we can stop worrying about the possibility of G settling the empty spaces. It is a pity we are delaying building BC tho'

Move the spear and axe on the marble to join the chariot from gold hill (+maybe another spear) and get them close to GK's horses and food resources. That force should be able to pillage without any problems

Do not forget to build 2 scouts prior to popping Compass. The chance of free techs from Goody Huts is important, and they can be quickly built even in low production cities like CCThis is all expensive. 2 scouts = 2g/t. The trireme is another unit outside our borders. So are the 4 units for pillaging.

Are we sure we want all this?

I definitely agree on the trireme. Teh scouts also make sense, I guess, although they'll be useless for 15 turns.

Actually, if you check out the score graph you will see that LC and Erkon has us bumbling along in the middle of the pack - it is only thanks to JERFit and myself that we are now beating CRC ;) Exactly, and then you set the build plan for Cape Fish to Granary>Library so there's no possible way the score graph can make a noticeable jump till your next turnset, right? :lol:

Actually, if you check out the score graph you will see that LC and Erkon has us bumbling along in the middle of the pack - it is only thanks to JERFit and myself that we are now beating CRC ;)


Saw that. Excellent work! :goodjob:


Btw, this means that I, for the time being, have actually read all posts up to now. Quite an achievement, eh? Especially all those detailed MM plans that never came to be (huge yawn).

Still trying to digest the various plans, but it seems to me that we need to DoW GK soon. Wait, am I agreeing with Erkon here? :eek:

Especially all those detailed MM plans that never came to be (huge yawn).
They keep LC out of trouble tho' - if it wasn't for spending all day writing detailed MM plans he'd otherwise be out on the street corner mugging little old ladies

So, Erkon and Gnejs - what sort of force do you think we need to DOW on GK. Are our current 6 axes, 2 spears and 3 chariots enough (I'm counting a few pre-builds here,) or would you get a few swords ready too first?

So, Erkon and Gnejs - what sort of force do you think we need to DOW on GK. Are our current 6 axes, 2 spears and 3 chariots enough (I'm counting a few pre-builds here,) or would you get a few swords ready too first?

A stack of 3-4 mixed units (one with healing) will be able to defend against anything GK could throw at us at this stage. This could be our pillaging/distraction stack. We can start taking cities once we get some swords but there is no need to delay DoW until then. If anything GK will waste his excess units on us first.

Edit: For the dim-witted, in other words Erkon, I believe we have enough units already to DoW anytime we wish and not risk being overrun by the hordes.

Especially all those detailed MM plans that never came to be (huge yawn).Well, at least now we know why you got :trophy2nd: :thumbdown instead of :trophy: :hatsoff:

A stack of 3-4 mixed units (one with healing) will be able to defend against anything GK could throw at us at this stage. This could be our pillaging/distraction stack. We can start taking cities once we get some swords but there is no need to delay DoW until then. If anything GK will waste his excess units on us first.

Edit: For the dim-witted, in other words Erkon, I believe we have enough units already to DoW anytime we wish and not risk being overrun by the hordes.So obviously we DOW GK 6 turns from now.

So if Mitiu posts a got it' in the next 24h he can take the game next. Otherwise LC is up.Okay, it's been more than 24 hours, so I'll go ahead and "got it."

I'll play till Compass is complete then let you guys know where we stand. I'll send both wkrs to chop the CF forest to get the monument done in 4 turns in case GK comes to his senses.

I'll send a spear down to accompany the chariot to the point closest to the GK's horses. Meanwhile that chariot will go pillage a road ot two, just to make GK's life exciting.

The marble chariot will scout Old and New Sarai, then position itself to grab one of those 3 wkrs. The CC chariot and a MW axe will position themselves for the other two, but I don't plan to DOW until the 6th turn to minimize our loss of trade income but still grab those wkrs before they finish their assignments.

How does that sound, peanut gallery?

It could be clever to let GK keep the northern central city. If we encapsulate him, the other AI wont find him :lol:

Okay, it's been more than 24 hours, so I'll go ahead and "got it."

I'll play till Compass is complete then let you guys know where we stand. I'll send both wkrs to chop the CF forest to get the monument done in 4 turns in case GK comes to his senses.

I'll send a spear down to accompany the chariot to the point closest to the GK's horses. Meanwhile that chariot will go pillage a road ot two, just to make GK's life exciting.

The marble chariot will scout Old and New Sarai, then position itself to grab one of those 3 wkrs. The CC chariot and a MW axe will position themselves for the other two, but I don't plan to DOW until the 6th turn to minimize our loss of trade income but still grab those wkrs before they finish their assignments.

How does that sound, peanut gallery?
Sounds fine. Don't forget the scouts - if necessary you can stop Compass 1 turn before completion. I presume you plan a forge first in MW?
It could be clever to let GK keep the northern central city. If we encapsulate him, the other AI wont find him :lol:
It would be a pity to lose all those forest chops tho'

So, Erkon and Gnejs - what sort of force do you think we need to DOW on GK. Are our current 6 axes, 2 spears and 3 chariots enough (I'm counting a few pre-builds here,) or would you get a few swords ready too first?

I think that is enough to capture the capital if we go for it, or two satelite cities. For every two swords we build, I think we can take another city.

I agree on building the National Epic in MW. We will get 30 GPP/turn and thus get two GS in 450/30=15T and 600/30=20T.

How about building a couple of swords in MW, then forge/NE in MW?

Well, at least now we know why you got :trophy2nd: :thumbdown instead of :trophy: :hatsoff:

Errr, I hope I haven't offended you. :eek:

I really appreciate your work on optimizing the sequence of actions. Nothing beats a solid argument based on numbers - please continue with the excel sheets as it really benefits our team.

What I was trying to say (communication is difficult) was that these posts have great value when planning the future but lose some of it once events have passed. Thus, I didn't pay very close attention to all the details when trying to catch up with reading two weeks worth of posts. Sorry.

Okay, it's been more than 24 hours, so I'll go ahead and "got it."

I'll play till Compass is complete then let you guys know where we stand. I'll send both wkrs to chop the CF forest to get the monument done in 4 turns in case GK comes to his senses.

I'll send a spear down to accompany the chariot to the point closest to the GK's horses. Meanwhile that chariot will go pillage a road ot two, just to make GK's life exciting.

The marble chariot will scout Old and New Sarai, then position itself to grab one of those 3 wkrs. The CC chariot and a MW axe will position themselves for the other two, but I don't plan to DOW until the 6th turn to minimize our loss of trade income but still grab those wkrs before they finish their assignments.

How does that sound, peanut gallery?

Sounds great! Looking forward to this, wars are fun...


To make sure, can I download the latest save and look around freely? (without making any moves obviously) Anytime, or only when I am up?

Errr, I hope I haven't offended you. :eek: ... Sorry.Nah, I thought you were trash-talking me a bit, so I came back with one. I always try to hit where it hurts the least--didn't think you were too vulnerable for getting a laurel... ;) All in fun...

To make sure, can I download the latest save and look around freely? (without making any moves obviously) Anytime, or only when I am up?I had the same question for BP last SG. Yes, we all download it and open it up once or many times while planning the next turnset. The rule of thumb is, just don't make any irrevocable changes. Don't move units, don't make trades, etc. BUt you can manipulate things, such as testing how many turns a unit would need to go somewhere, without moving the unit, or check to see an AI's attitude as you mentioned yesterday, check the cost of various techs, etc.

Okay, guys, I must admit I'm a bit overwhelmed by all the possibilities. We have a number of variables to work with right now and I'd rather we come to an agreement than you just telling me to do my best. We'll be able to poprush freely in 4 turns, could do it now if we wanted. Iron won't be connected for 4 more turns. We have two units each in GC and MW with 1 turn to completion, but GC needs 4-5 more turns to complete barracks first.

One thing we haven't talked about: I'd rather switch the citizen in CC from the GC gold to the grassland tile--we want to grow CC pop as fast as possible. This takes two hammers out of prod in GC, but I thnk the gold is important too.

SO one possibliity is to switch MW to forge and poprush for 2pop-points when possible, then do the 2 scouts (hold Compass at 1t), swords, then NE. Haven'e made any calcs on that, but that might be the smartest. The only question I have, is do we really want to poprush in MW?

EDIT: One problem with holding off on the scouts is that if we get Calendar from GK, then we want to immediately bulb Machinery, right?

Sorry for babbling, but I have to rush off.

Nah, I thought you were trash-talking me a bit, so I came back with one. I always try to hit where it hurts the least--didn't think you were too vulnerable for getting a laurel... ;) All in fun...

Np :)

I had the same question for BP last SG. Yes, we all download it and open it up once or many times while planning the next turnset. The rule of thumb is, just don't make any irrevocable changes. Don't move units, don't make trades, etc. BUt you can manipulate things, such as testing how many turns a unit would need to go somewhere, without moving the unit, or check to see an AI's attitude as you mentioned yesterday, check the cost of various techs, etc.

Fine, you will from now face a slightly more informed peanut gallery.

Okay, guys, I must admit I'm a bit overwhelmed by all the possibilities. We have a number of variables to work with right now and I'd rather we come to an agreement than you just telling me to do my best. Just wishful thinking on our part....We'll be able to poprush freely in 4 turns, could do it now if we wanted. Iron won't be connected for 4 more turns. We have two units each in GC and MW with 1 turn to completion, but GC needs 4-5 more turns to complete barracks first.

One thing we haven't talked about: I'd rather switch the citizen in CC from the GC gold to the grassland tile--we want to grow CC pop as fast as possible. This takes two hammers out of prod in GC, but I thnk the gold is important too. My plan was to switch in 4 turns when the cottage is built. My thinking was that 4 turns of extra production in GC was better than 4 turns of extra food in CC and gets that barracks virtually built- plus the slightly improved prod in CC for 4 turns can build a scout

SO one possibliity is to switch MW to forge and poprush for 2pop-points when possible, then do the 2 scouts (hold Compass at 1t), swords, then NE. Haven'e made any calcs on that, but that might be the smartest. The only question I have, is do we really want to poprush in MW? Why not build the scouts in CC and MC?
EDIT: One problem with holding off on the scouts is that if we get Calendar from GK, then we want to immediately bulb Machinery, right? No rush - we only need to bulb Machinery when we have a second GS to bulb Optics (unless you were planning to tech Optics - but I think this will take a while with our nerfed research rate once we DOW on GK)

If we go forge first, how many extra turns will it take to get NE?

Nah, I thought you were trash-talking me a bit, so I came back with one. I always try to hit where it hurts the least--didn't think you were too vulnerable for getting a laurel... ;) All in fun...


Yeah, LC holds the :trophy2nd: for trash-talking.
(No prizes for guessing who holds the :trophy: )

Yeah, LC holds the :trophy2nd: for trash-talking.
(No prizes for guessing who holds the :trophy: )BP, I'm not only surprised at how high you put da Vinci, but also at how low you put yourself... :lol:

If we go forge first, how many extra turns will it take to get NE?It's either
forge(T10)>NE(T20) or

NE(T13)>forge(T23)

BUT we don't want NE before T17, so forge first is the right choice. Scouts in CC and MC take 5t each, so that works too.

Good, this is all starting to take shape now.

Nah, I thought you were trash-talking me a bit, so I came back with one. I always try to hit where it hurts the least--didn't think you were too vulnerable for getting a laurel... ;) All in fun...


Yeah, Gnejs is just trying to cover up his ignorance. He's even worse than me when it comes to predicting turns. :p

It's either
forge(T10)>NE(T20) or

NE(T13)>forge(T23)

BUT we don't want NE before T17, so forge first is the right choice. Scouts in CC and MC take 5t each, so that works too.

Good, this is all starting to take shape now.

Skip the forge, get some swords out instead.:satan:

It's either
forge(T10)>NE(T20) or

NE(T13)>forge(T23)

BUT we don't want NE before T17, so forge first is the right choice. Scouts in CC and MC take 5t each, so that works too.

Good, this is all starting to take shape now.
Doesn't NE turn 13 = GS turn 15 = Caravels 2 turns earlier......? :crazyeye:

Alternatively if we run 1 scientist in MW to boost production for a few turns does this speed things up (should even out on the GS pop if we get NE earlier)?

Skip the forge, get some swords out instead.:satan:Well, the advantage to this is that MW keeps growing so that poprushing forge becomes increasingly cheaper, unless we decide to poprush swords. Not sure how effective poprushing is with two scientists though, might be smarter to just grow our population for Caste System.

BP, I'm not only surprised at how high you put da Vinci, but also at how low you put yourself... :lol:
The higher you put 'em, the harder they fall......

Doesn't NE turn 13 = GS turn 15 = Caravels 2 turns earlier......? :crazyeye:

Alternatively if we run 1 scientist in MW to boost production for a few turns does this speed things up (should even out on the GS pop if we get NE earlier)?No way. Not worth the risk of polluting our gene pool. Later on we can risk it, now we absolutely want 2 bulbs.

No way. Not worth the risk of polluting our gene pool. Later on we can risk it, now we absolutely want 2 bulbs.

The risk????????? The odds of a GS after 13 turns of 5 GS sources and 2 turns of 5 GS sources and 1 GA source is ~98%. Even Gnejs would risk a battle with those sort of odds

EDIT: Actually it is more like 20 turns of 5 GS sources

EDIT2: But fair enough - getting a GS 2 turns faster is not really that big a deal

The risk????????? The odds of a GS after 13 turns of 5 GS sources and 2 turns of 5 GS sources and 1 GA source is ~98%. Even Gnejs would risk a battle with those sort of oddsTwo words: MURPHY'S LAW

Two words: MURPHY'S LAW
Was Murphy the name of the General you and jpc had commanding those knights when we were attacking Berlin in SGOTM3?

Was Murphy the name of the General you and jpc had commanding those knights when we were attacking Berlin in SGOTM3?Think that was Colonel Klink.

Seriously, it's a clever idea and two or three turns can mean the difference between Gold and Tin, but I just don't think the payoff is anywhere close to the potential disaster. If we get yanked, we can kiss this thing good-bye.

Think that was Colonel Klink.

Seriously, it's a clever idea and two or three turns can mean the difference between Gold and Tin, but I just don't think the payoff is anywhere close to the potential disaster. If we get yanked, we can kiss this thing good-bye.

Yeah, I think we should stick to 100% Scientists

We can live with chance after the second great people. If we are unlucky (1 out of 15) we can wait for the third (or actually fifth) without any real harm.

Missing GS #2 is bad. Really bad.

Skip the forge, get some swords out instead.:satan:

Yeah, I think we should stick to 100% Scientists

We can live with chance after the second great people. If we are unlucky (1 out of 15) we can wait for the third (or actually fifth) without any real harm.

Missing GS #2 is bad. Really bad.


... I must resist... I will not agree with Erkon... aaaarrrrrggggghhhh....:cringe:


Hrrm, cough, cough.

Erkon, you have it totally messed up! We should build the first sword first and the second one after that, not the other way around. Stupid... otherwise, I agree with Erkon here

Two more questions before I go to Compass:

1. We have 4 turns of prod in MW before we can start a sword:

NE pre-build or Trireme (6t) to patrol the Land of the Midnight Sun?
2. Might as well trade GK lit for Mono, right? I'm seeing that Gandhi has no Calendar resources, and I don't think GK will trade it to him, so we'll have to research it ourselves.

EDIT: This is my thinking on the MW forge. We have 6 resource tiles (incl. plains/hills) and 2 scientists, so it's better not to poprush for 2 pop-points unless we have pop10.

2. Might as well trade GK lit for Mono, right? I'm seeing that Gandhi has no Calendar resources, and I don't think GK will trade it to him, so we'll have to research it ourselves.
Wait until you are about to DOW on him. Then we know he won't be giving us Calendar

Okay, I think I have a resolution. I'll move the CF warrior to the W warrior, move the west warrior N to fogbust that coast so we have advance notice of Gandhi coming. If necessary the axe and warrior will block Gandhi's settler path to the S. If Gandhi settles up on that tundra, all the better.

So that means I'll pre-build NE rather than make Trireme4.

Okay. I played 4 turns, Compass has 1 turn to go.

Started the NE pre-build, then I realized that we lose 2 happies when we DOW GK and I had only 1 unit left in MW, so I completed the spear. Then Gandhi sent a trireme out of Delhi to the N and I realized that he could pillage CF and MW to death, so I put the spear overflow into a MW trireme (5t). Just means NE and the swords will be done a bit later. (Note: We will also have to work in a wb in MW in about 15 turns.)

So I now have both scouts pre-built (CC, MC). They need to be finished before we finish Compass.

GK researched HBR on T2, Gandhi, Construction! on T4. So it's clear Gandhi is not going after Calendar.

Units are now in place to DOW GK next turn. Turns out GK has a 4th wkr for us in New Sarai, if we're willing to DOW a turn earlier. I think we can oblige him.

So unless you guys want to see the save, I guess I'll just DOW GK next turn and play to the end of Calendar. Let me know sometime in the next hour or so.

Two more questions before I go to Compass:

1. We have 4 turns of prod in MW before we can start a sword:

NE pre-build or Trireme (6t) to patrol the Land of the Midnight Sun?
2. Might as well trade GK lit for Mono, right? I'm seeing that Gandhi has no Calendar resources, and I don't think GK will trade it to him, so we'll have to research it ourselves.

EDIT: This is my thinking on the MW forge. We have 6 resource tiles (incl. plains/hills) and 2 scientists, so it's better not to poprush for 2 pop-points unless we have pop10.

Vote: pre-build NE
Vote: wait until pop10 to poprush

Okay. I played 4 turns, Compass has 1 turn to go.

Started the NE pre-build, then I realized that we lose 2 happies when we DOW GK and I had only 1 unit left in MW, so I completed the spear. Then Gandhi sent a trireme out of Delhi to the N and I realized that he could pillage CF and MW to death, so I put the spear overflow into a MW trireme (5t). Just means NE and the swords will be done a bit later. (Note: We will also have to work in a wb in MW in about 15 turns.)

So I now have both scouts pre-built (CC, MC). They need to be finished before we finish Compass.

GK researched HBR on T2, Gandhi, Construction! on T4. So it's clear Gandhi is not going after Calendar.

Units are now in place to DOW GK next turn. Turns out GK has a 4th wkr for us in New Sarai, if we're willing to DOW a turn earlier. I think we can oblige him.

So unless you guys want to see the save, I guess I'll just DOW GK next turn and play to the end of Calendar. Let me know sometime in the next hour or so.

Highest priority is to pillage the horses and iron. GK has probably already started building Keshiks and we must prevent his units to emerge. And remember that it's not enough to just stand on the horse...

Highest priority is to pillage the horses and iron. GK has probably already started building Keshiks and we must prevent his units to emerge. And remember that it's not enough to just stand on the horse?...I have an axe, a spear, and a chariot ready to pillage his horses on the third turn. The iron is completely undeveloped, and I suspect he's got most if not all of his workers up at New Sarai. Haven't seen any others anywhere.

EDIT: He's guarding New and Old Sarai each with a pair of archers. I'm assuming we will raze New Sarai, right?

Or should I race in there with the chariot and hope to pillage the horses on the 2nd turn, and risk him getting slaughtered? Gives GK one turn less to poprush a Keshik.

EDIT: I'm going to trade for Lit for Mono before I hit enter, just in case that opens something up next turn before DOWing.

Okay. I played 4 turns, Compass has 1 turn to go.

Started the NE pre-build, then I realized that we lose 2 happies when we DOW GK (?only 1 - from wine - isn't it?) and I had only 1 unit left in MW, so I completed the spear. Then Gandhi sent a trireme out of Delhi to the N and I realized that he could pillage CF and MW to death, so I put the spear overflow into a MW trireme (5t). Just means NE and the swords will be done a bit later. (Note: We will also have to work in a wb in MW in about 15 turns.)

So I now have both scouts pre-built (CC, MC). They need to be finished before we finish Compass.

GK researched HBR on T2, Gandhi, Construction! on T4. So it's clear Gandhi is not going after Calendar.

Units are now in place to DOW GK next turn. Turns out GK has a 4th wkr for us in New Sarai, if we're willing to DOW a turn earlier. I think we can oblige him.

So unless you guys want to see the save, I guess I'll just DOW GK next turn and play to the end of Calendar. Let me know sometime in the next hour or so.
With GK having HBR it is even more important that we pillage both horse farms asap and have a few spears handy

I don't like the sound of Gandhi having construction - that means war elephants which are more than a match for any of our units. It makes naval defence all the more vital

Or should I race in there with the chariot and hope to pillage the horses on the 2nd turn, and risk him getting slaughtered? Gives GK one turn less to poprush a Keshik.

No it will be a waste of the chariot which will almost certainly die

EDIT: In retrospect we should have moved our units on GK's roads to the wine outside GK borders S of Beshlabik

We were talking about putting one of our own cities where New Sarai is - why not keep it?

No it will be a waste of the chariot which will almost certainly die

EDIT: In retrospect we should have moved our units on GK's roads to the wine outside GK borders S of Beshlabik Yeah, I missed that altogether, when looking for the closest location.

We were talking about putting one of our own cities where New Sarai is - why not keep it?Plusses: more food, enough hammers, more gold, gets the spices in fat cross, GK has already done a lot of pre-improving for us.

Minuses: More immediate maintenance costs, overlaps borders with CC, doesn't get that gold tile, prevents us from settling on spices to get the fish.

SHould I do it?

SHould I do it?
DoW or raze New Sarai or suicide the chariot?

Yes, maybe, no to those 3 questions.

I have no real strong feelings about New Sarai - it may well be though that GK has a city S of there that gets the gold which we would also have to raze if we wanted a city on the horses and the gold. I guess on balance I would keep it.

NB. I'm sure you know already, but in Warlords when you capture a worker, the worker does not move that turn - so you have to be able to defend it

DoW or raze New Sarai or suicide the chariot?

Yes, maybe, no to those 3 questions.

I have no real strong feelings about New Sarai - it may well be though that GK has a city S of there that gets the gold which we would also have to raze if we wanted a city on the horses and the gold. I guess on balance I would keep it.

NB. I'm sure you know already, but in Warlords when you capture a worker, the worker does not move that turn - so you have to be able to defend itI meant DoW GK. I'm on hold--it's the next thing I do.

I will not suicide the chariot. I think I will not raze New Sarai either. I will take the workers with 2 chariots, an axe and a warrior. He has two archers in New Sarai and if he has a mounted unit in Old Sarai, he'll be able to counterattack one chariot at most. Highly doubt he'll bring those two archers out, but if he does, I'll promptly get the wkr back...

So, should I do it? (I'm sh..ting bricks right now)

I meant DoW GK. I'm on hold--it's the next thing I do.

I will not suicide the chariot. I think I will not raze New Sarai either. I will take the workers with 2 chariots, an axe and a warrior. He has two archers in New Sarai and if he has a mounted unit in Old Sarai, he'll be able to counterattack one chariot at most. Highly doubt he'll bring those two archers out, but if he does, I'll promptly get the wkr back...

The only reason to delay would be to get the chariot/spear and axe nearer the horse (3t) - but in that 3 turns GK could build a bunch of Keshiks so it is not worth it. I think there is no likelihood of being able to trade for Calendar in the near future. So, go for it (and I'm sure blood thirsty Erkon would agree....)

I assume that teching Machinery will take us more than 13t once we DoW? If so, then I presume you are going to bulb Machinery and Optics? (If you can get Machinery teched in 13t, then feel free to do so). After we have Calendar we can pre-research CoL or construction until GS2 pops

The only reason to delay would be to get the chariot/spear and axe nearer the horse (3t) - but in that 3 turns GK could build a bunch of Keshiks so it is not worth it. I think there is no likelihood of being able to trade for Calendar in the near future. So, go for it (and I'm sure blood thirsty Erkon would agree....)

I assume that teching Machinery will take us more than 13t once we DoW? If so, then I presume you are going to bulb Machinery and Optics? (If you can get Machinery teched in 13t, then feel free to do so). After we have Calendar we can pre-research CoL or construction until GS2 pops

Okay. I'm already researching Calendar. Mach was 17t at 70% and we're already down to 60%. Maybe with the looting we'd get it in 13, I don't know.

I'm thinking of promoting the Karakorum axe and spear with Combat II so I can promote to Formation (+25% against mounted) if possible. Sound good?

I meant DoW GK. I'm on hold--it's the next thing I do.

...

So, should I do it? (I'm sh..ting bricks right now)

Of course you should. Now. What could possibly be gained by waiting? :)

I'm thinking of promoting the Karakorum axe and spear with Combat II so I can promote to Formation (+25% against mounted) if possible. Sound good?For the spear, yes. For the axe, give him medic 1

Of course you should. Now. What could possibly be gained by waiting? :)My case of Jack Daniels might arrive by FedEx.

For the spear, yes. For the axe, give him medic 1Okay, folks, here goes...

My case of Jack Daniels might arrive by FedEx.
Lets hope you have something to celebrate when it arrives then

(otherwise, never bother showing your face on this thread again......)

Okay, folks, here goes...

Good luck!

Okay, folks, here goes...

Lets hope you have something to celebrate when it arrives then

(otherwise, never bother showing your face on this thread again......)

Good luck!

Umm, yes. I think that's what I meant too!

Or should I race in there with the chariot and hope to pillage the horses on the 2nd turn, and risk him getting slaughtered? Gives GK one turn less to poprush a Keshik.

EDIT: I'm going to trade for Lit for Mono before I hit enter, just in case that opens something up next turn before DOWing.

I would advice you to move the chariot one SW and see if he has anything bad in Besbalik. Then move another SW. If he attack the chariot, you can counter attack with the axe. So: I advice you to go in with both units to separate tiles.

Okay, 3 turns gone, and that's not all that's gone, folks. Ran into a Stack of Doom.

Kararkorum was loaded.

By the way, I think we should shut down research now. We can trade for calender when we meet the "others".

Well, it had 4 archers anyway. And a settler. Doesn't that count as a SoD?

Not a peep from this immortal level warmongering Genghis Khan. He must be on hormones...estrogen, that is.

His horses are gone, we have 4 new wkrs, and at this rate we'll never get a Great General.

Back in a bit...

Kararkorum was loaded.
I'm hoping there is a punchline coming....

Cross post: clearly there was..... Don't do this to me LC - I have a weak heart
By the way, I think we should shut down research now. We can trade for calender when we meet the "others".
Then how would we get machinery? We need Calendar to bulb Machinery

Well, it had 4 archers anyway. And a settler. Doesn't that count as a SoD?



Can you get him to move out the settler with escort and hit them in the open?

By the way, I think we should shut down research now. We can trade for calender when we meet the "others".Hm...now that's a twist. We have 6 turns to Calendar now and 4 sugar plantations just begging to give us 3f and 3g per turn and 8 wkrs to keep busy. Furthermore, I think we'll get Commerce from someone and thatwill also be a source of income.

I agree with shutting it down after Calendar for sure.

I'll do what you guys think on Erkon's proposal.

I'm hoping there is a punchline coming....

Cross post: clearly there was..... Don't do this to me LC - I have a weak heart Sorry, I won't do that again...

Then how would we get machinery? We need Calendar to bulb Machinery
Of course, so that decides it, onward I go and resaerching Calendar to the end...

Can you get him to move out the settler with escort and hit them in the open?I'll keep an eye on that. Do you have a tactic for drawing him out?

Hm...now that's a twist. We have 6 turns to Calendar now and 4 sugar plantations just begging to give us 3f and 3g per turn and 8 wkrs to keep busy. Furthermore, I think we'll get Commerce from someone and thatwill also be a source of income.

I agree with shutting it down after Calendar for sure.

I'll do what you guys think on Erkon's proposal.

In other words, you wan't us to tell Erkon that he is an idiot? Okay, I guess I can do it.









Erkon, you are an idiot!



There, now its done. Agree on shutting down research after calendar btw.

I'll keep an eye on that. Do you have a tactic for drawing him out?
Use worker-bait?

I'll keep an eye on that. Do you have a tactic for drawing him out?

He might do it anyway, but to be sure you could back up a tile or two to let him believe the road is clear. No need to waste workers, it is his settler that needs to be convinced.

He might do it anyway, but to be sure you could back up a tile or two to let him believe the road is clear. No need to waste workers, it is his settler that needs to be convinced.
The workers won't be wasted - we will capture them again in Karakorum (or, when we kill the archer). And if they draw archers out of a fortified hill city, then it can only be a good thing.....

Okay, btw, how would you guys go about taking out New Sarai? Right now I have 2 chariots, a warrior and I'm about to have 3 axes. What sequence? First attack with the chariots and hope for a retreat? Or attack with an axe if it's above 50% odds?

I don't have any workers down by Karaakorum anyway.

Okay, btw, how would you guys go about taking out New Sarai? Right now I have 2 chariots, a warrior and I'm about to have 3 axes. What sequence? First attack with the chariots and hope for a retreat? Or attack with an axe if it's above 50% odds? You mean you haven't captured it yet????? What have you been doing????

You may even wish to leave a chariot or axe gaurding the city, and move the main stack S to Old Sarai and Karakorum. Pillage the road the New Sarai so he can't reinforce. Then capture it at leisure with our new swords

I don't have any workers down by Karaakorum anyway. Then move 1 or 2 there, idiot-boy. Do I have to mastermind everything in this game???????

In other words,... Actually, that wasn't what I was driving at, but in retrospect, I can see how you might think that.

Anyway...ROTFLMAO45M!

You mean you haven't captured it yet????? What have you been doing????

You may even wish to leave a chariot or axe gaurding the city, and move the main stack S to Old Sarai and Karakorum. Pillage the road the New Sarai so he can't reinforce. Then capture it at leisure with our new swords

Then move 1 or 2 there, idiot-boy. Do I have to mastermind everything in this game???????)(*@^)(*^()*@! No good, man. Those swords won't be done before the end of my turnset...Now I'm pissed.

Okay, btw, how would you guys go about taking out New Sarai? Right now I have 2 chariots, a warrior and I'm about to have 3 axes. What sequence? First attack with the chariots and hope for a retreat? Or attack with an axe if it's above 50% odds?



Not sure about the sequence, but we will have more use of promoted chariots than promoted axes. We won't be facing any melee units on this continent, and the axes will soon become obsolete anyway. Chariots with sentry and healing are useful throughout the game.

unwritten rule: [B]No turnsets drunk :beer: .....

My case of Jack Daniels might arrive by FedEx.

)(*@^)(*^()*@! ...Now I'm pissed.

Surely you should stop playing then? :confused:

Gandhi just sent a galley out of Delhi toward us and I can't see if there's anything in it. Should I just take it out? Looks like he'll probably head South and settle somewhere. Do we want that or not?

Gandhi just sent a galley out of Delhi toward us and I can't see if there's anything in it. Should I just take it out? Looks like he'll probably head South and settle somewhere. Do we want that or not?
In Warlords, galleys always appear empty even if they are not. Will our trireme not block him?

I think at present I would prefer G not to settle our side of the canal

In Warlords, galleys always appear empty even if they are not. Will our trireme not block him? Unfortunately, his borders just expanded and I can't block him in anymore.

I think at present I would prefer G not to settle our side of the canal

What I really don't want to see is him take that grassland tile and our gems with it. I can't stop hm from landing his settelr there next turn, unless I kill'emall. My combat odds are 88.1%. Guess I'll just go for and hope for the best.

Update: Gandhi Galley Gone.

Update: Gandhi Galley Gone.

:woohoo:

I was worried Admiral Klink might have been commanding our trireme

So, are we now in a big mess? Did we fail the attack? LC, tell me!!

I'm hoping there is a punchline coming....

Cross post: clearly there was..... Don't do this to me LC - I have a weak heart

Then how would we get machinery? We need Calendar to bulb Machinery

BP, is this how you feel: :stupid: ?

Note to self: must not forget to switch on brain before posting :lol:

In other words, you wan't us to tell Erkon that he is an idiot? Okay, I guess I can do it.

Erkon, you are an idiot!

There, now its done. Agree on shutting down research after calendar btw.

I made the proposal to make the rest of you appear smart. Only one thing to do: :suicide:

Okay, btw, how would you guys go about taking out New Sarai? Right now I have 2 chariots, a warrior and I'm about to have 3 axes. What sequence? First attack with the chariots and hope for a retreat? Or attack with an axe if it's above 50% odds?

I don't have any workers down by Karaakorum anyway.

I normally attack with the unit with highest odds first, without regards to withdrawal chances.

Success! No problems encountered. Colonel Klink captured New Sarai with the first two axes. Old Sarai I leave to Erkon, and I assume it will be bloody, but spilling GK's estrogen-dilluted gore is fun!

Gandhi just finished Music and has a GA to show for it! The crew in our trireme applauded for him--Captain's orders.

The stack down by Karakorum needs to go check the horses to make sure no wkr is getting silly (I've been pillaging farms to force GK to work his cottages for us.)

New Sarai has already built a monument. Two scouts were just completed so we can go ahead with Compass this turn.

I have the overflow of the last MW sword going to the NE, but nextturn we should build a wb for CF, I think. The timing will be just right.

NOTE: I didn't work this turn yet (I already played 15 turns, I think), so those of you just looking at the save, probably easiest to just fortify all units till they leave you in peace.

Oh yeah, thanks for your help guys, I needed it.

Turnset log:
Here is your Session Turn Log from 250 BC to 25 BC:


Turn 151, 235 BC: You have trained a Spearman in Murky Waters. Work has now begun on National Epic.

Turn 153, 205 BC: You have constructed a Barracks in Gold City. Work has now begun on a Archer.

Turn 154, 190 BC: You have discovered Monotheism!
Turn 154, 190 BC: You have trained a Axeman in Gold City. Work has now begun on a Archer.
Turn 154, 190 BC: You have constructed a Monument in Cape Fish. Work has now begun on a Granary.

Turn 155, 175 BC: You have declared war on Genghis Khan!
Turn 155, 175 BC: Murky Waters's Axeman (5.50) vs Genghis Khan's Scout (1.70)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 155, 175 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 155, 175 BC: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 155, 175 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Murky Waters's Axeman is hit for 11 (89/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Genghis Khan's Scout is hit for 34 (66/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Murky Waters's Axeman is hit for 11 (78/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Genghis Khan's Scout is hit for 34 (32/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Genghis Khan's Scout is hit for 34 (0/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Murky Waters's Axeman has defeated Genghis Khan's Scout!
Turn 155, 175 BC: You have trained a Axeman in Murky Waters. Work has now begun on a Trireme.
Turn 155, 175 BC: You have trained a Archer in Gold City. Work has now begun on a Granary.

Turn 156, 160 BC: Isaac Newton (Great Scientist) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 157, 145 BC: You have trained a Trireme in Murky Waters. Work has now begun on National Epic.
Turn 157, 145 BC: Taoism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 158, 130 BC: The borders of Gold City have expanded!
Turn 158, 130 BC: Louis Pasteur (Great Scientist) has been born in Delhi (Gandhi)!

Turn 159, 115 BC: Murky Waters's Trireme (2.00) vs Gandhi's Galley (1.42)
Turn 159, 115 BC: Combat Odds: 88.1%
Turn 159, 115 BC: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 159, 115 BC: (Class Attack: -50%)
Turn 159, 115 BC: Gandhi's Galley is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 159, 115 BC: Gandhi's Galley is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 159, 115 BC: Murky Waters's Trireme is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 159, 115 BC: Gandhi's Galley is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 159, 115 BC: Gandhi's Galley is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 159, 115 BC: Murky Waters's Trireme is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 159, 115 BC: Murky Waters's Trireme is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 159, 115 BC: Gandhi's Galley is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 159, 115 BC: Murky Waters's Trireme has defeated Gandhi's Galley!

Turn 160, 100 BC: Murky Waters's Axeman (5.50) vs Barbarian's Archer (2.40)
Turn 160, 100 BC: Combat Odds: 99.4%
Turn 160, 100 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 160, 100 BC: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 160, 100 BC: Murky Waters's Axeman is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 160, 100 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 160, 100 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 160, 100 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 160, 100 BC: Murky Waters's Axeman is hit for 13 (74/100HP)
Turn 160, 100 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 160, 100 BC: Murky Waters's Axeman has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 160, 100 BC: Murky Waters's Axeman (5.50) vs Genghis Khan's Archer (5.10)
Turn 160, 100 BC: Combat Odds: 61.0%
Turn 160, 100 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 160, 100 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 160, 100 BC: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 160, 100 BC: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 160, 100 BC: Murky Waters's Axeman is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 160, 100 BC: Murky Waters's Axeman is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 160, 100 BC: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 160, 100 BC: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 160, 100 BC: Murky Waters's Axeman is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 160, 100 BC: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 160, 100 BC: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 160, 100 BC: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 160, 100 BC: Murky Waters's Axeman has defeated Genghis Khan's Archer!
Turn 160, 100 BC: Murky Waters's Axeman (5.50) vs Genghis Khan's Archer (4.50)
Turn 160, 100 BC: Combat Odds: 68.6%
Turn 160, 100 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 160, 100 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 160, 100 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 160, 100 BC: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 160, 100 BC: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 160, 100 BC: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 160, 100 BC: Murky Waters's Axeman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 160, 100 BC: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 160, 100 BC: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 160, 100 BC: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 160, 100 BC: Murky Waters's Axeman has defeated Genghis Khan's Archer!
Turn 160, 100 BC: You have captured New Sarai!!!
Turn 160, 100 BC: You have trained a Swordsman in Murky Waters. Work has now begun on a Swordsman.
Turn 160, 100 BC: Genghis Khan adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 163, 55 BC: You have plundered 2? from the Farm!
Turn 163, 55 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 44 ? for New Sarai.
Turn 163, 55 BC: Atisha (Great Prophet) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 164, 40 BC: You have plundered 5? from the Farm!
Turn 164, 40 BC: You have discovered Calendar!
Turn 164, 40 BC: You have trained a Scout in Commerce City. Work has now begun on a Aqueduct.
Turn 164, 40 BC: You have trained a Scout in Marble City. Work has now begun on a Trading Post.
Turn 164, 40 BC: Johannes Vermeer (Great Artist) has been born in Delhi (Gandhi)!
Turn 164, 40 BC: Mencius (Great Prophet) has been born in a far away land!

Great work!!! Well done :goodjob:

(Its hard work keeping our score line above CRC's isn't it?)

Great work!!! Well done :goodjob:

(Its hard work keeping our score line above CRC's isn't it?)No kidding. I was wondering if that recent skyrocket of theirs is them conquering GK or what. Their power graph also skyrockets at the same time. Also interesting is that where you thought the jump indicated they had met other civs is not that much of a jump anymore, from where we stand. In any case, they don't seem to have abandoned the homeland yet, because that would show a huge drop in their score, right?

EDIT: BTW, guys, the trireme earned a promotion (2/2 XP) after beating Gandhi BUT I couldn't do the Navigation II, had to do flanking first, it turns out, so I guess we need three Great Generals to get Navigation II (or lots of naval battles...)

Great play LC :goodjob:

Am I next? Else I'm thinking of practicing on the Immortal GOTM tonight :lol:

Yes, Erkon is next - then Gnejs

Great play LC! :goodjob:

Yes, Erkon is next - then Gnejs

Great, this will be fun. I'll take a closer look tomorrow on the save. My initial conclusion is that we need swords to take the cities, while the other units may be used to draw out defenders.

LC, can you confirm that you have uploaded the latest save?

Having now had a chance to review the save, I have been able to grasp the true magnitude of LC's incompetent bungling. I humbly submit the following suggestions to allow Erkon to attempt to rectify things:


as GK is confined to building archer units now, the pillaging stack near Karakorum could probably be split to speed up pillaging. Keeping the cottages is probably a good thing - but we don't want GK teching feudalism. Perhaps once his food improvements have been pillaged we should sit on his cottages?
we should try to pillage roads connecting GK's cities to stop his archers easily moving around
the chariot in no mans land should check that GK's borders have not spread to include the iron yet
Old Sarai and Karakorum have a whole bunch of archers. Although LC was clearly too unimaginative to see the merits of my worker-bait idea, I'm sure Erkon will recognize the idea for the stroke of genius it is. Each archer we can entice out of his cities (esp his capital) will be much easier to destroy. In Warlords workers cannot move the turn they are captured - so the archer will have to stay to guard the worker - easy pickings for our units! (and we get the worker back!)
In 2 turns we will want to get a couple of caravels out asap. I suggest poprushing 1 in MW - and maybe also in MC? Or switching GC back to working the plain hill mine and building one in GC? (CC's new pop in 4 turns can work the gold while GC works the plain hill mine)
If we start trireme builds now, will they change into caravel builds once we get Optics? (triremes will upgrade to caravels)
we want to move the 2 scouts to wherever the first 2 caravels will be built so they can get on board without delaying the caravels sailing. Popping the GH on Horse Island is a priority (unless GK has gotten there first)
the trireme next to GC should probably station itself next to Bombay to keep Gandhi honest and discourage naval builds there (I know the maintenance will be more but if it stops G building ships there it will be a good thing). Unless you plan to upgrade it to a caravel?
the northern warrior can return to CF to cut back on maintenance
I think we will need cats to take Karakorum. Maybe don't turn off research after Compass?


It will be a tough job to clean up after LC, but I'm sure Erkon can manage it!

confirm that you have uploaded the latest save?The 25BC save is the current one


(fool)

It will be a tough job to clean up after LC, but I'm sure Erkon can manage it!

Thanks for the encouraging words, although I already now expect the usual trash from Gnejs (Erkon messed up *again* and look how smart I am etc etc). Keep in mind that he sometimes says/writes clever thing :crazyeye: , so don't ignore everything from his side. ;)

I found this on the internet at www.usingenglish.com. It seems rather appropriate:

Idiom: Murky Waters
Meaning:
Where people are behaving in morally and ethically questionable ways, they are in murky waters.

The problem is not BP’s few small nuggets of wisdom.

Gnejs, since your turnset follows Erkon’s, you’d better speak up quickly, before he follows BP’s eNTIRE pLAN, which does more harm than good. Anyway, here’s his list edited with common sense:

as GK is confined to building archer units now, the pillaging stack near Karakorum could probably be split to speed up pillaging. Just be sure to check the horse tile immediately Keeping the cottages is probably a good thing - but we don't want GK teching feudalism. Perhaps once his food improvements have been pillaged we should sit on his cottages?
we should try to pillage roads connecting GK's cities to stop his archers easily moving around you may need to pillage roads between Karak and Old Sarai
the chariot in no mans land should check that GK's borders have not spread to include the iron yet
Old Sarai and Karakorum have a whole bunch of archers. GK just poprushed his 5th archer in Old Sarai, so Beware: he may send 2 on the attack! Although LC was clearly too unimaginative to see the merits of my foresighted to prematurely use the commonly known worker-bait idea that BP is about to superciliously explain in painstaking detail, I'm sure Erkon will recognize the idea for the stroke of genius it is. Each archer we can entice out of his cities (esp his capital) will be much easier to destroy. In Warlords workers cannot move the turn they are captured - so the archer will have to stay to guard the worker - easy pickings for our units! (and we get the worker back!)
In 2 turns we will want to get a couple of caravels out asap. I suggest poprushing 1 in MW - and maybe also in MC? Or switching GC back to working the plain hill mine and building one in GC? (CC's new pop in 4 turns can work the gold while GC works the plain hill mine) See below for something concrete.
If we start trireme builds now, will they change into caravel builds once we get Optics? (triremes will upgrade to caravels) Goto rock-bottom for BP behavior analysis we want to move the 2 scouts to wherever the first 2 caravels will be built so they can get on board without delaying the caravels sailing. Popping the GH on Horse Island is a priority (unless GK has gotten there first) In other words, don’t forget to put them on the ships. the trireme next to GC should probably station itself next to Bombay to keep Gandhi honest and discourage naval builds there (I know the maintenance will be more but if it stops G building ships there it will be a good thing). Unless you plan to upgrade it to a caravel? I have been moving the tri W,E each turn to monitor Bombay’s new builds. He’s either building buildings or a wonder there. Saved 1g/t doing that.
the northern warrior can return to CF to cut back on maintenance
I think we will need cats to take Karakorum. Maybe don't turn off research after Compass? You may even wish to leave a chariot or axe gaurding the city, and move the main stack S to Old Sarai and Karakorum. Pillage the road the New Sarai so he can't reinforce. Then capture it at leisure with our new swords!?!And I needed to wait for some swords to take New Sarai… GK will have Feudalism before we have Construction and build and transport 1 cat.
It will be a tough job to clean up after LC, but I'm sure Erkon can manage it! if he pays too much attention to BP…

Since trireme-build-hammers only convert to caravels in BP’s pipe dreams, we’ll need to build them from scratch. Obviously, BP’s overly simplistic idea to poprush a caravel in MW needs amplification, so we don’t sabotage the building of the NE. Here is my most humble suggestion:

Assuming Optics on T2:

MW1: Caravel(T4)>NE(T11) {Poprush 2 pop-points, grow back in 4t using pigs}
MW2: Caravel(T4)>NE(T12) {Poprush 2 pop-points, grow back slowly}
MW3: CF wb(T2)>Caravel(T5)>NE(T13) {Poprush 1 pop-point}
.
GC1: Caravel(T3)>Trireme(T9) {upgrade caravel 65g, assumes pigs not used by MW}
GC2: Granary(T2)>Caravel(T4)—pop3(T10)—pop4(T15)
.
MC: TP(T6)>Caravel(T8) {poprush 2x for 1 pop-point}I guess the optimal mix would be MW2, GC1, and MC

Note to the rest of you: I think the most humane way I can explain BP’s behavior is indirectly: His favorite band is Simple Minds.

Now that I have recovered from BP's cowardly and abusive attack on my stainless reputation:

We would need 9 units to cover 7 cottages and 2 wineries around Karakorum and Beshbalik, lowering GK's budget by around 30g/t.

I think BP's right, we either need to get about a dozen swords and take Karakorum immediately or make every attempt to slow his research down, better yet, both. He probably only needs about 10 turns to finish Feudalism. If we're lucky he's building MC first.

EDIT: This also brings up the question: do we want to prioritze NE in MW now, or Swords? It might even be better to build the MC caravel, skip the MW caravel and simply build swords to make sure we get Karak.

The problem is not BP’s few small nuggets of wisdom.

Gnejs, since your turnset follows Erkon’s, you’d better speak up quickly, before he follows BP’s eNTIRE pLAN, which does more harm than good. Anyway, here’s his list edited with common sense Am I right in thinking LC was actually agreeing with most of the ideas tho'? :confused:
I think BP's right
Ahh - clearly I was

Since trireme-build-hammers only convert to caravels in BP’s pipe dreams, we’ll need to build them from scratch. Am I to assume this is code for 'I've tested out BP's ingenious suggestion, but unfortunately this time he is incorrect'?

Obviously, BP’s overly simplistic idea to poprush a caravel in MW needs amplification, so we don’t sabotage the building of the NE. Here is my most humble suggestion:

Assuming Optics on T2:

MW1: Caravel(T4)>NE(T11) {Poprush 2 pop-points, grow back in 4t using pigs}
MW2: Caravel(T4)>NE(T12) {Poprush 2 pop-points, grow back slowly}
MW3: CF wb(T2)>Caravel(T5)>NE(T13) {Poprush 1 pop-point}
.
GC1: Caravel(T3)>Trireme(T9) {upgrade caravel 65g, assumes pigs not used by MW}
GC2: Granary(T2)>Caravel(T4)—pop3(T10)—pop4(T15)
.
MC: TP(T6)>Caravel(T8) {poprush 2x for 1 pop-point}I guess the optimal mix would be MW2, GC1, and MC This sounds a very long-winded way of saying exactly what I suggested earlier. This is so typical of LC - no original ideas of his own so tries to take the credit for others'

I think getting at least 2 caravels out asap is an absolute priority - more so than capturing GK's cities faster

Okay, guys, this is critical. Karakorum has walls. GK hasn't researched a new tech in the last 13 turns, which ought to be enough for MC, so my guess is he's going for Feudalism right now. By the time we get knights, he'll have a castle built there. I suspect this is why CRC has a spike in their graph around 800AD, they missed their opportunity with GK and archers earlier. If we can possibly take out Karakorum before he gets feudalism, we've broken his back. We can have 4 swords in MW in 10 turns, 7 total. Then if we can bait a couple of those archers out (although he'll just keep building more)...Should we go for it?

Am I to assume this is code for 'I've tested out BP's ingenious suggestion, but unfortunately this time he is incorrect'?
Yes, I tested it.

Okay, guys, this is critical. Karakorum has walls. GK hasn't researched a new tech in the last 13 turns, which ought to be enough for MC, so my guess is he's going for Feudalism right now. By the time we get knights, he'll have a castle built there. I suspect this is why CRC has a spike in their graph around 800AD, they missed their opportunity with GK and archers earlier. If we can possibly take out Karakorum before he gets feudalism, we've broken his back. We can have 4 swords in MW in 10 turns, 7 total. Then if we can worker-bait (TM BP) a couple of those archers out (although he'll just keep building more)...Should we go for it?
Well, certainly suiciding our entire army on the walls of Karakorum would be an ingenious way of getting our unit upkeep down........

Seriously tho' I am worried we are losing sight of the big picture in all the excitement of war-mongering. The most important aim is to get caravels out, meet everyone and get tech trading going asap.

Against archers in Karakorum, our anti-archer swords are fighting str 6 vs str ~7.5 and a 1st strike (= ~20% chance of victory) - so we probably need two times as many swords as there are archers in Kara.

If GK gets LBs, then we will need cats (or preferably trebs) to remove the walls and soften up the LBs a bit - not a huge problem

Lets get caravels out, get the NE built - then worry about how to take out GKs stubborn resistance in Kara (we can take out his outlying cities in the meantime)

Interesting times indeed...

I think it is clear that we attacked GK just in time. The main objective, denying him metals and horses, have been reached. As long as we can keep it this way he will not be much of an offensive threat and will only be able to build archers, later longbows and cats. But nothing else before gunpowder.


I have a suggestion on how to proceed. This is my thinking:

We don't really need any more cities right now. Without courthouses our economy will suffer too much. At the same time, it is necessary to keep GK down and not allow him to grow in power. If we could capture Karakorum, excellent, but somehow I doubt we can do it without sacrifying to much units and research progress.

How many cities does he have now, anyway? 4? 5? We could easily raze those that are not full of archers. That should keep GK occupied with resettling and diverting remaining archers for escorting. At the same time it simplifies for us to keep an eye on the horses/iron. Capturing his 2-3 core cities can wait until we have cats or even trebs/berserkers.

As this should require much less troops we can concentrate on getting the caravels out and teching towards astronomy/civil service/engineering.


Edit: Hehe, great minds think alike, BP. :)

Thanks for the encouraging words, although I already now expect the usual trash from Gnejs (Erkon messed up *again* and look how smart I am etc etc). Keep in mind that he sometimes says/writes clever thing :crazyeye: , so don't ignore everything from his side. ;)

Today, I will be nice to you. Happy birthday, Erkon!:bday:



Tomorrow, things will be as usual again, though...

I would prefer an attack with treb/mace/pike/elephants/horse archers instead of cats & swords.
I think that is enough to capture the capital if we go for it, or two satelite cities. For every two swords we build, I think we can take another city.
we need to DoW GK soon.
We don't really need any more cities right now. After taking 1 city...
Well, certainly suiciding our entire army....Against archers in Karakorum, our anti-archer swords are fighting str 6 vs str ~7.5 and a 1st strike (= ~20% chance of victory) - so we probably need two times as many swords as there are archers in Kara.

If GK gets LBs, then we will need cats (or preferably trebs) to remove the walls and soften up the LBs a bit - not a huge problem

Let's do the math on this: 3 x multipliers = suicide, but 6/2 x multipliers, not a huge problem...okay...
Hehe, great minds think alike, BP. :)Yeah, right, great schizo minds think alike. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Yeah, right, great schizo minds think alike. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Don't make the mistake of equating war with capturing cities. People do this all the time, waiting to declare until they have gathered up their city raider stacks of doom.

It is often much more effective to declare the war earlier, pillage a few key resources and steal some workers, and find much weaker AI once the city attackers arrive. At higher difficulties you also give the AI the time to deplete their mobile units. I could even predict that if we would retreat all our units a bit GK would send a huge stack of archers towards us.

Yeah, right, great schizo minds think alike. :lol: :lol: :lol:

@Gnejs: LC is only jealous that we come out with all the good ideas :)
He clearly has yet to grasp the irefutable logic of what we are suggesting

Have CRC started the great Gandhi give-away in ~900AD? (or maybe the wheels have come off the bus and GK has started whipping their ass..... yeah, right!)

Chokonuts score (+ culture) graphs show a similar decline in 200AD - but I wonder if this was more inadvertant.....

Don't make the mistake of equating war with capturing cities...Well, if you saw the immortal-level GOTM I'm playing right now...No, I was just enjoying being a piece of driftwood battered to and fro by the stormy waves of change...it's actually exciting for me that we are having such a dynamic game. I think it's a fantastic learning experience, much better than the SGOTM02 which was basically a monotone conquer scenario.

I don't have the game in front of me now, but I think we want to consider taking and keeping Old Sarai. It's a poor-man's version of Brown City, with the great advantage of being in close to Karakorum. We could build barracks, then cats (problem is, how to expand its borders for all those forest chops). If nothing else, it's a great way station for our armies.

I don't kow if you guys have done a dot map of GK's land, but New Sarai was the 1 city I had marked for razing. The rest are well-situated: Karakorum and Besh... are great research centers, Old Sarai has potential too. His Eastern city has lots of food as does his SW coastal city.

The SW coastal city MUST NOT be razed. At least for the time being, it's the only city we can capture to gain Gandhi's religion. (Looks like it doesn't spread to us while we're at war with Gandhi, or...?) We want to bring his religion with us when we go, n'est-ce pas?

I don't kow if you guys have done a dot map of GK's land, but New Sarai was the 1 city I had marked for razing. The rest are well-situated: Karakorum and Besh... are great research centers, Old Sarai has potential too. His Eastern city has lots of food as does his SW coastal city.

The SW coastal city MUST NOT be razed. At least for the time being, it's the only city we can capture to gain Gandhi's religion. (Looks like it doesn't spread to us while we're at war with Gandhi, or...?) We want to bring his religion with us when we go, n'est-ce pas?

Cities that contribute with a lot of commerce can be kept. Otherwise, they can be razed and rebuilt later. Also remember that the AI tends to build settlers even when in war if there is unclaimed land nearby. We should encourage this. :)

Pity that we need meditation to spread religion. We won't be able to do so until after astronomy. :(

@Gnejs: LC is only jealous that we I come out with all the good ideas :)
He clearly has yet to grasp the irrefutable logic of what we are I am suggestingYou're slipping, BP. ;)

Cities that contribute with a lot of commerce can be kept. Only the E city doesn't pay for itself, and it has a lighthouse, so it would too, if we're lucky enough to take it w/o destrcution.Otherwise, they can be razed and rebuilt later. Also remember that the AI tends to build settlers even when in war if there is unclaimed land nearby. We should encourage this. :) Yeah, that's a clever trick.Every tile in Old Sarai's fat cross is on a river. 7 grass, 12 plains, 1 grass/corn. 9 forested (only 1 forest in Karak's zone). He already has a cottage and a hamlet. Old Sarai pays for itself.

Every tile in Old Sarai's fat cross is on a river. 7 grass, 12 plains, 1 grass/corn. 9 forested (only 1 forest in Karak's zone). He already has a cottage and a hamlet. Old Sarai pays for itself.
It would be good to capture it before its culture grows and it gets an extra 20% defence too

Pity that we need meditation to spread religion. We won't be able to do so until after astronomy. :( or trade routes :)
EDIT: which we also won't have until after Astronomy :(

It would be good to capture it before its culture grows and it gets an extra 20% defence tooAnyway, what's Erkon going to do during his turnset, twiddle his thumbs? :lol:

Anyway, what's Erkon going to do during his turnset? :lol:
Follow the 10-point plan to guaranteed victory that I posted earlier, I expect......

We need to think about research (turn it off, go for CoL, go for construction, start astronomy .....), and tech trading when we meet the 'others'. WRT tech trading, I suggest waiting until we have met *everyone* before deciding who and what to trade. We need to be very clever with our trades. Remember, at least 1 of the 'others' will be occupying our new homeland.....

We need to think about research (turn it off, go for CoL, go for construction, start astronomy .....), and tech trading when we meet the 'others'. WRT tech trading, I suggest waiting until we have met *everyone* before deciding who and what to trade. We need to be very clever with our trades. Remember, at least 1 of the 'others' will be occupying our new homeland.....

It probably won't hurt us much if we go 0% for a while, maybe even until we start meeting the other AIs. We can save the money for some deficit research later.

Construction is nice to have asap though.

Anyway, what's Erkon going to do during his turnset, twiddle his thumbs? :lol:

I hope he won't play his turns until tomorrow. If we are lucky he will be too drunk to start up civ when he gets home tonight. :D

Otherwise we might end up with the mother of all score drops... :)



In other words, I think we have plenty of time to fine-polish a strategy.

I hope he won't play his turns until tomorrow. If we are lucky he will be too drunk to start up civ when he gets home tonight. :D

Otherwise we might end up with the mother of all score drops... :)



In other words, I think we have plenty of time to fine-polish a strategy.Well, we generally post our got-it and then wait about 24 hours to play to give everyone a heads-up, unless we already discussed everything to death, which never happens, right, BP?

It probably won't hurt us much if we go 0% for a while, maybe even until we start meeting the other AIs. We can save the money for some deficit research later.

Construction is nice to have asap though.I was thinking 0% is perfect for now, but I think we can't wait for Construction. If we do get a chance to take out Karakorum, we want to jump on it.

Btw, did you notice that some far-away AI has lightbulbed Philosophy? :eek:

We might face some pretty advanced enemies on the other side of the ocean...

Btw, did you notice that some far-away AI has lightbulbed Philosophy? :eek:

We might face some pretty advanced enemies on the other side of the ocean...Yes, that is Taoism 8 turns ago, Confucianism 25 turns ago! Someone has a bunch of ch's already.

Yeah, right, great schizo minds think alike. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Hey! Don't confuse my ideas with my ideas!

Anyway, what's Erkon going to do during his turnset, twiddle his thumbs? :lol:

I'll probably ignore all posts since last week and do something clever. I have celebrated my annual decline and will not play tonight due to the restrictions posted earlier. In other words:

GOT IT

I'll probably ignore all posts since last week and do something clever. I have celebrated my annual decline and will not play tonight due to the restrictions posted earlier. In other words:

GOT ITYES! Before it's too late:

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, ERKON!!!

:bday: :bday: :bday: :band: [party] [party] :band:

YES! Before it's too late:

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, ERKON!!!

:bday: :bday: :bday: :band: [party] [party] :band:

I second that motion!

I second that motion!

Thirded...


I'm still lurking guys :)

Only two more turnsets till I'm up again :D

Is it 100% guaranteed that we can't pop meditation from a goody hut?

Do scouts and explorers provide equal gains from goody huts?

Is it 100% guaranteed that we can't pop meditation from a goody hut?I will test this, but I won't be able to guarantee anything.

Do you know if the combat odds are better for us:


Now, with our swords versus his full-strength archers or

Later, with our swords versus his half-strength lbs (after suicide-catting them to 50%HP)?

I will test this, but I won't be able to guarantee anything.

Do you know if the combat odds are better for us:


Now, with our swords versus his full-strength archers or

Later, with our swords versus his half-strength lbs (after suicide-catting them to 50%HP)?


That would be similar odds I think. However, I think you will get below 50% HP with four cats. It's also about risk I think. With eight swords against 60% cities with four archers, you still face a risk that you won't capture the city. With four swords and four cats against a 0% city with four LB, you will capture the city.

However, I think you will get below 50% HP with four cats.It's my understanding and experience (in Vanilla CIV) that you can't bombard a unit's hp below 50%. (The city defenses can go down to 0%, of course.) EDIT: Here's Arathorn's article:Ahh…fighting. Love it or hate it,

Maximum Damage

Gone are the Civ3 days of completely red-lining a unit. Each unit that can do collateral damage has a limit on the amount of damage it can do. These are given in the Units XML file. For catapults, it is 50; cannons 60; artillery 70. Tanks/panzers and modern armor are capped at 60; Cho-Ko-Nu at 60, and (stealth) bombers at 50. That means a catapult can not damage a unit at or below 50 hps. Similarly, an artillery cannot damage any unit at or below 30 hps. Those are hard caps.

Is it 100% guaranteed that we can't pop meditation from a goody hut?

Do scouts and explorers provide equal gains from goody huts? Don't know about this for sure, but explorers definitely did not get any techs the scouts couldn't get.I was not able to get meditation, either starting with the standard 2 techs or starting ith the techs we now have. Here is a list of the techs I was not able to get (note this is definitely incomplete because I didn't have access to MonoT, pHood, etc.):

From where we will be with Machinery and Optic:
Meditation
Feudalism
Code of Laws
Engineering
Theology

From beginning of game:
Meditation
Polytheism
Alphabet
Machinery
Code of Laws

This doesn't guarantee anything, I only tested each one once. In the first test, I got 7 free techs, in the 2nd,19 free techs.

I will test this, but I won't be able to guarantee anything.

Do you know if the combat odds are better for us:


Now, with our swords versus his full-strength archers or

Later, with our swords versus his half-strength lbs (after suicide-catting them to 50%HP)?



Lets see, archers are strength 3, have 1 first strike, +50% city defense, +25% hills defense, +fortification, +walls and culture

Longbows are strength 6, have 1 first strike, +25% city defense, +25% hills defense, +fortification, +walls and culture

Our swords are strength 6, +10% city attack, +10% combat = 7.2

I am assuming that all other promotions cancel out, e.g. city raider/city defense


A full strength fortified archer defends at:
3 +50% +25% +[0% 20% 40%]= [5.25 5.85 6.45] no walls/no hill
3 +50% +25% +50% +[0% 20% 40%]= [6.75 7.35 7.95] walls
3 +50% +25% +25% +[0% 20% 40%]= [6 6.6 7.2] hill
3 +50% +25% +50% +25% +[0% 20% 40%]= [7.5 8.1 8.7] walls and hill

A full strength fortified longbow defends at:
6 +25% +25%= 9 no hill
6 +25% +25% +25% = 10.5 hill
I have assumed that we have bombarded down to 0%...

50 HP gives 75% strength with the latest patch, right? If so, the 50HP longbow has strength 6.75 on flatland and 7.785 on a hill.



Looks like the odds will be worse against the soft targets but better against the hardest ones. I think this conclusion supports going for the soft targets first.


Btw, trebuchets rules, and we are not that far from engineering. Effective strength 8 + collateral. A stack of these is unstoppable pre-gunpowder, and can even crack riflemen-defended cities if one can accept some losses.

It's my understanding and experience (in Vanilla CIV) that you can't bombard a unit's hp below 50%. (The city defenses can go down to 0%, of course.) EDIT: Here's Arathorn's article:

I was not able to get meditation, either starting with the standard 2 techs or starting ith the techs we now have. Here is a list of the techs I was not able to get (note this is definitely incomplete because I didn't have access to MonoT, pHood, etc.):

From where we will be with Machinery and Optic:
Meditation
Feudalism
Code of Laws
Engineering
Theology

From beginning of game:
Meditation
Polytheism
Alphabet
Machinery
Code of Laws

This doesn't guarantee anything, I only tested each one once. In the first test, I got 7 free techs, in the 2nd,19 free techs.

Seems to confirm that you can't get religion from a hut, and that there is a limit of how advanced techs that it can give. It is possible to get Astronomy from a hut though, as some ridiculously lucky player found in the Isabella GOTM. Right, Erkon? ;)

Our swords are strength 6, +10% city attack, +10% combat = 7.2

Bonuses for the attacker are not added to the attackers score - rather thay are subtracted from the defenders'. So those swords would give a -20% STR to the defending archer or LB. With anti-archer promotion (?cover) they would give -45% STR to the defender. So the defenders' total strength is calculated by adding all the defensive bonuses and subtracting all the attackers bonuses and multiplying the resultant %age by the defenders base strength; the attackers strength remains 6

Btw, trebuchets rules, and we are not that far from engineering. Effective strength 8 + collateral. A stack of these is unstoppable pre-gunpowder, and can even crack riflemen-defended cities if one can accept some losses.
So lets take the outlying cities with swords (+ worker-bait.....) while GK still has archers and bee-line construction>engineering for Kara

50 HP gives 75% strength with the latest patch, right? What the f...?

A full strength fortified longbow defends at:
6 +25% +25%= 9 no hill
6 +25% +25% +25% = 10.5 hill
I have assumed that we have bombarded down to 0%...Are you saying that bombardment of city defenses also eliminates the 50% walls bonus?

It's my understanding and experience (in Vanilla CIV) that you can't bombard a unit's hp below 50%. (The city defenses can go down to 0%, of course.) EDIT: Here's Arathorn's article:

You are correct, I forgot. However, the units you attack may get below 50%, so I was right too :lol:

I was not able to get meditation, either starting with the standard 2 techs or starting ith the techs we now have. Here is a list of the techs I was not able to get (note this is definitely incomplete because I didn't have access to MonoT, pHood, etc.):

From where we will be with Machinery and Optic:
Meditation
Feudalism
Code of Laws
Engineering
Theology

From beginning of game:
Meditation
Polytheism
Alphabet
Machinery
Code of Laws

This doesn't guarantee anything, I only tested each one once. In the first test, I got 7 free techs, in the 2nd,19 free techs.

I can confirm this and add to the list:

Non-popable tech:

Meditation
Polytheism
Code of Laws
Monotheism
Philosophy
Theology
Divine Right

Alphabet
Machinery
Feudalism
Civil Service
Guilds
Nationalism
Paper
Engineering
Optics
Military Tradition
etc

Conclusion (in overriding/priority order):
You can't pop religious techs.
You can't pop the alphabet.
You can pop Music
You can pop Astronomy (and that was pure skill Mr Prophet)
You can pop Ancient and Classical tech
You can't pop Medieval or later tech

Are you saying that bombardment of city defenses also eliminates the 50% walls bonus?

Yes

........ <= fill up post to 10 characters :)

Yessiree Bob!

Yes

........ <= fill up post to 10 characters :)How about:
Yessiree Bob!

Bonuses for the attacker are not added to the attackers score - rather thay are subtracted from the defenders'. So those swords would give a -20% STR to the defending archer or LB. With anti-archer promotion (?cover) they would give -45% STR to the defender. So the defenders' total strength is calculated by adding all the defensive bonuses and subtracting all the attackers bonuses and multiplying the resultant %age by the defenders base strength; the attackers strength remains 6

Thanks for this info, I didn't know. However, is it really multiplied with the base strength? I read somewhere that the current health is involved as well.

The odds prediction does not fully support your statement though, at least if I read them correct. Sometimes the bonus is added on both units, sometimes they cancel each other. I've examined this before, but I will keep an eye on the odds and the combat log in the future.

Also, what happens if a treb with CR2 attacks a city? The attack bonus is 14