So, what is the real difference in general if I poprush a unit on first turn compared to second turn?

It seams like I can pop rush 2 pop in both situations? A simple test I made seams like I get 58 hammers. That means I get 44/1.5 instead of 44/2 as I thought the degradation was for first turn whip.On the first turn is no good. You pay an extra pop-point for poprushing from 0 hammers.

Only Moonsinger ever did this in CivIII when she was operating on 10,000 cash and shewas cash-rushing instead of pop-rushing, or in CivIII when you wanted to kill down the pop to reduce the likelihood of flipping. Not good in CIV for any reason that I know of.

EDIT: Maybe it's only half a point, or whatever, I don't know exaclty, but it's not what we want obviously. That's only for extreme emergencies. That's why it's so important to have 4-5t advance notice of an on-coming trireme.

Teaser:

Goody Hut still there.

Land and Alien Border detected to the east.

Ghandi sends Trireme towards MW

Worker-Bait "worked" for Old Sarai.

Still no Longbowmen.

:banana: :banana: :banana:

Here comes the bad news:

We have Brennus to the east. He has no tech. So he must die. He founded Hinduism.

Hut gave us: :band:
43 gold

and the good news?

and the good news?

GK has Feudalism. :faint:

EDIT: Save uploaded.


Here is your Session Turn Log from 25 BC to 50 AD:

Turn 165, 25 BC: You have discovered Compass!

Turn 166, 10 BC: You have discovered Machinery!
Turn 166, 10 BC: Werner Heisenberg (Great Scientist) has been born in Murky Waters (Murky Waters)!
Turn 166, 10 BC: Michaelangelo (Great Artist) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 167, 5 AD: You have discovered Optics!
Turn 167, 5 AD: Commerce City will become unhealthy on the next turn
Turn 167, 5 AD: While defending, your Worker was destroyed by a Mongolian Archer!

Turn 168, 20 AD: The enemy has been spotted near New Sarai!
Turn 168, 20 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Marble City!
Turn 168, 20 AD: Murky Waters's Axeman (5.50) vs Genghis Khan's Archer (3.75)
Turn 168, 20 AD: Combat Odds: 86.6%
Turn 168, 20 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 168, 20 AD: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 168, 20 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 168, 20 AD: Murky Waters's Axeman is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 168, 20 AD: Murky Waters's Axeman is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 168, 20 AD: Murky Waters's Axeman is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 168, 20 AD: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 168, 20 AD: Murky Waters's Axeman is hit for 16 (36/100HP)
Turn 168, 20 AD: Murky Waters's Axeman is hit for 16 (20/100HP)
Turn 168, 20 AD: Murky Waters's Axeman is hit for 16 (4/100HP)
Turn 168, 20 AD: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 168, 20 AD: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 168, 20 AD: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 168, 20 AD: Murky Waters's Axeman is hit for 16 (0/100HP)
Turn 168, 20 AD: Genghis Khan's Archer has defeated Murky Waters's Axeman!
Turn 168, 20 AD: Your Axeman has died trying to attack a Archer!
Turn 168, 20 AD: Murky Waters's Chariot (4.00) vs Genghis Khan's Archer (0.18)
Turn 168, 20 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 168, 20 AD: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 168, 20 AD: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 168, 20 AD: Murky Waters's Chariot has defeated Genghis Khan's Archer!
Turn 168, 20 AD: Your Chariot has destroyed a Archer!
Turn 168, 20 AD: Murky Waters's Axeman (5.50) vs Genghis Khan's Archer (2.40)
Turn 168, 20 AD: Combat Odds: 99.4%
Turn 168, 20 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 168, 20 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 168, 20 AD: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 168, 20 AD: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 168, 20 AD: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 168, 20 AD: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 168, 20 AD: Murky Waters's Axeman has defeated Genghis Khan's Archer!
Turn 168, 20 AD: Your Axeman has destroyed a Archer!
Turn 168, 20 AD: Murky Waters's Spearman (4.40) vs Genghis Khan's Archer (2.40)
Turn 168, 20 AD: Combat Odds: 98.3%
Turn 168, 20 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 168, 20 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 168, 20 AD: Murky Waters's Spearman is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 168, 20 AD: Murky Waters's Spearman is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 168, 20 AD: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 168, 20 AD: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 168, 20 AD: Murky Waters's Spearman is hit for 14 (58/100HP)
Turn 168, 20 AD: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 168, 20 AD: Murky Waters's Spearman is hit for 14 (44/100HP)
Turn 168, 20 AD: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 168, 20 AD: Murky Waters's Spearman has defeated Genghis Khan's Archer!
Turn 168, 20 AD: Your Spearman has destroyed a Archer!
Turn 168, 20 AD: Murky Waters's Axeman (5.50) vs Genghis Khan's Archer (2.40)
Turn 168, 20 AD: Combat Odds: 99.4%
Turn 168, 20 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 168, 20 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 168, 20 AD: Murky Waters's Axeman is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 168, 20 AD: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 168, 20 AD: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 168, 20 AD: Murky Waters's Axeman is hit for 13 (74/100HP)
Turn 168, 20 AD: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 168, 20 AD: Murky Waters's Axeman is hit for 13 (61/100HP)
Turn 168, 20 AD: Murky Waters's Axeman is hit for 13 (48/100HP)
Turn 168, 20 AD: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 168, 20 AD: Murky Waters's Axeman has defeated Genghis Khan's Archer!
Turn 168, 20 AD: Your Axeman has destroyed a Archer!
Turn 168, 20 AD: You have trained a Swordsman in Murky Waters. Work has now begun on National Epic.
Turn 168, 20 AD: Commerce City has grown to size 7
Turn 168, 20 AD: Commerce City has become unhealthy

Turn 169, 35 AD: Murky Waters will grow to size 8 on the next turn
Turn 169, 35 AD: The borders of Cape Fish have expanded!

Turn 170, 50 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Cape Fish!
Turn 170, 50 AD: The villagers give you gold! You have received 43 gold!

I don't see any alternative but to start a trireme in MW now, popr it for 1 poppoint when Gandhi tri 3 tiles from clams.

Interesting. Well done. It is a pity GK opted to destroy the worker rather than capture it.....

I am surprised Brennus is so backwards in tech. He built the Oracle - what did he do with it???? Maybe he is isolated from the other AIs - which would certainly make him a good target for our 'expansion'. His capital looks very tempting with the Hindu shrine and the temple of Artemis.

We have several problems tho', maybe as a result of us over-reaching ourselves.

1. GK. With LBs, taking his cities will be twice as hard until we get trebs. We really must try to capture OS next turn. In addition, strength 6 LBs are a threat to our units - especially our chariots and spears. Our swords should probably receive cover promotions rather than city raider as these are useful defensively as well as offensively. We should also aim to pillage any production tiles to limit his production of LBs (altho' he has more than enough archers to upgrade).

2. Gandhi's west coast trireme. It will be pillaging our MW nets in 5 turns unless we stop it. We can either
poprush a caravel in MC in 2 turns (it won't have navigation, but....). It will be on the MW nets in 4 turns, just before the Gandhi trireme can reach them
drop off the scout to explore Brennus-land and recall the eastern caravel. It wastes exploration time, but saves having to pop a non-navigation caravel in MC
poprush a MW caravel - very suboptimal as we want to grow MW....


3. Gandhi and our west coast. Our west coast has no naval defence at the south end of the G canal. A Gandhi-galley out of Delhi could land or settle west of CC, or even worse capture NS (which is presently undefended). Upgrading the GC trireme to a caravel (mainly for the extra MP) this turn and positioning it mid-way between Bombay and the southern end of the canal may be able to cope until the next GC trireme is built. (I think the caravel should be able to 'see' Delhi from one of these tiles - e.g. 2NE of Delhi) The GC trireme build should be speeded up by working the plain hill mine and letting CC work one of the gold hills (this actually makes more sense in terms of tile resources anyway)

I don't see any alternative but to start a trireme in MW now, popr it for 1 poppoint when Gandhi tri 3 tiles from clams.
See above for alternatives :)

Interesting. Well done. It is a pity GK opted to destroy the worker rather than capture it.....

I am surprised Brennus is so backwards in tech. He built the Oracle - what did he do with it???? Maybe he is isolated from the other AIs - which would certainly make him a good target for our 'expansion'. His capital looks very tempting with the Hindu shrine and the temple of Artemis.

We have several problems tho', maybe as a result of us over-reaching ourselves.

1. GK. With LBs, taking his cities will be twice as hard until we get trebs. We really must try to capture OS next turn. In addition, strength 6 LBs are a threat to our units - especially our chariots and spears. Our swords should probably receive cover promotions rather than city raider as these are useful defensively as well as offensively. We should also aim to pillage any production tiles to limit his production of LBs (altho' he has more than enough archers to upgrade).

I am more than a bit worried that we are not building any swords. At all. Why are we building trading posts/aqueducts/granaries? We are at war, remember?

Anyway, unless GK upgrades some archers in OS it should fall next turn.

2. Gandhi's west coast trireme. It will be pillaging our MW nets in 5 turns unless we stop it. We can either
poprush a caravel in MC in 2 turns (it won't have navigation, but....). It will be on the MW nets in 4 turns, just before the Gandhi trireme can reach them
drop off the scout to explore Brennus-land and recall the eastern caravel. It wastes exploration time, but saves having to pop a non-navigation caravel in MC
poprush a MW caravel - very suboptimal as we want to grow MW....


You forgot alternative 4: let it pillage the clams. It costs us 2 food per turn, and 2.5 turns production to replace the workboat.

3. Gandhi and our west coast. Our west coast has no naval defence at the south end of the G canal. A Gandhi-galley out of Delhi could land or settle west of CC, or even worse capture NS (which is presently undefended). Upgrading the GC trireme to a caravel (mainly for the extra MP) this turn and positioning it mid-way between Bombay and the southern end of the canal may be able to cope until the next GC trireme is built. (I think the caravel should be able to 'see' Delhi from one of these tiles - e.g. 2NE of Delhi) The GC trireme build should be speeded up by working the plain hill mine and letting CC work one of the gold hills (this actually makes more sense in terms of tile resources anyway)

Brennus was a disappointment. I can't wait to find out more about his land and what units he has.

Why is it that I'm the bringer of bad news again?! Same thing last turn set: I play two turns and then everything is a mess (SHUT UP MR. PROPHET). I'm tempted to pass on to Gnejs already just in case GK upgrades his archers in OS ;)

Anyway, I wanted to break after these few turns, since we've reached the goal we've been planning for: First Contact :)

I think the caravels should continue. However, there's something I forgot to bring up before, and that is I plan to make a favourable trade with each AI I meet on the first turn. The reason is that you get a nice relation bonus. This is my experience, and I may be wrong. Has anyone else noticed this?

As you have noticed, I've saved up gold to run 100% research for either CoL or Construction. It may take four-six turns until we meet someone who have these techs, and they may not trade with us. I'm also getting this bad feeling that GK will be tougher to crack than I anticipated. It's too late to build swords now. We need cats against LB. And that means Construction before CoL...

I delayed the attack on OS on purpose, since I wanted to get more swords there and I wanted to lure out the defenders. I lost one axe (86% :() and two workers, and I killed 4 archers. I'm pretty sure that I would not have managed to take OS with the first units. The next few turns will reveal if I made the correct choices.

It is a pity GK opted? to destroy the worker rather than capture it..... Let me guess, you proofed your Worker-Bait™ Theory on the worker-loving Gandhi? :lol: :cry:

1. GK. We really must try to capture OS next turn. But not suicide ourselves in teh process. If the first battle or two go badly wrong, then better to adopt a defensive posture. Anyway, he will upgrade to LBs in the interturn, he will. You know it, I know it.

I plan to make a favourable trade with each AI I meet on the first turn. The reason is that you get a nice relation bonus. This is my experience, and I may be wrong. Has anyone else noticed this? Usually requires more or less gifting a tech and it gets you +4.

I am more than a bit worried that we are not building any swords. At all. Why are we building trading posts/aqueducts/granaries? We are at war, remember?We want to lose, remember? :lol:
Guys, this would be an splendid time to panic hysterically. Unfortunately(?!), we're not women, so instead we might consider just revisiting and re-discussing our Master Plan and responding appropriately... ;)

Master Plan Revisited: Wipe GK off of Gandhi’s Continent and relocate ourselves to another continent.

Solution(?):

Renovate/upgrade our army asap while limiting maintenance costs by improving our city tiles and minimizing our number of obsolete units;
Time the acquisition of construction, by research or trade, so we can start building cats when we get our GG;
Continue our long-term research by lightbulbing our way to Astro to gain trade bait for our new contacts.

New priorities(?) as of now:

Pop a GG
Camp out on GK's horses
Get a sword on Horse Island asap
Keep GK on the defensive
Defend our southern border

Helpful would be:

Raze at least one of GK's southern cities to get him building settlers
Use Warrior-Bait™: we place a warrior (we have 5 of them) next to a GK city, on a flatland tile without forest with a river between the tile and the city. The purpose is to have a GK lb attack the warrior and incur maximum possible damage, but provide him minimum defense against our counter attack.
We could also put some appropriate units on Gandhi’s Ivory, for example, and hope he attacks, turn after turn, in vain , to gain GG XP. (Not sure if we can spare any units though.) We can’t attack Brennus without Astro.


EDIT: I'm thinking that our focus should be developing a good plan for effectively and efficiently killing GK. If Gandhi has this entire continent, ain't no one on this map gonna be more powerful or faster than Gandhi.

Teaser turn 65 AD
Assault on Old Sarai commences.
GG @ 14 XP
Defenders ***Classified***

Sword attacks Longbowman @ 20%
6.6 vs 8.10
Sword defeated
Scored 4 hits @ 18 HP
Received 5 hits @ 22 HP
Longbowman @ 1.7 strength
Conclusion: good :)

Assault continues against Old Sarai
Sword attacks Archer @ 94%
6.6 vs 4.2
Archer defeated
Scored 4 hits @ 25 HP
Received 2 hits @ 16 HP
Sword @ 4.1 strength + upgrade
Conclusion: Great :D
+2 GG XP

Assault continues against Old Sarai
Axe attacks Archer @ 95%
5.5 vs 3.3
Archer defeated
Scored 4 hits @ 25 HP
Received 3 hits @ 15 HP
Axe @ 2.8 strength
Conclusion: Great :D
+2 GG XP

Assault continues against Old Sarai
Sword attacks Archer @ 98%
6.6 vs 3.6
Archer defeated
Scored 4 hits @ 26 HP
Received 2 hits @ 14 HP
Sword @ 4.3 strength + Upgrade
Conclusion: Great :D
+2 GG XP

Assault continues against Old Sarai
Chariot attacks Longbowman @ 86%
4.0 vs 2.85
Longbowman defeated
Scored 2 hits @ 15 HP
Received 2 hits @ 25 HP
Chariot @ 2.0 strength + Upgrade
Conclusion: Excellent :lol:
+2 GG XP

The governor of Old Sarai surrenders the key to the city. The city is looted for 130 gold and the largest villa is prepared as residence for general Erkon the Magnificent. A most generous favour is presented to the local beauty to become wife #3. She accepts when she notice the large sword in the warlords hand. :eek:

Work is immediately begun to restore the defences in preparation for the expected counter attack from Karakorum.

Great work! Very generous of you to accommodate the local beauty. Just don't tell her any state secrets.

P.s.: I heard she accepted the offer when she saw the size of the charioteer's horse.

Isabella!
Lowest score.
Founder of Bhuddism.
Annoyed with Brennus.
Agreed to Open Borders.
Traded Monarchy for Meditation (got her pleased @ +5)

I hate to tell you this, Erkon, but we can no longer bulb Astronomy... (unless we get Philosophy somehow, of course)

Fooled you!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Fooled you!
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Actually, I just went from galled to glad.

Now get serious, get back to work, and stop chatting with the peanut gallery... ;)

P.s., Too bad you didn't pm me on that joke--we could have both enjoyed watching BP whig out...on second thought, better not, he said he has a weak heart...

Hannibal!
Same score as us.
Founder of Confuciansim.
Annoyed with Isabella.
Agreed to Open Borders.
Gifted Literature (got him pleased @ +5)
Will trade Code of Laws + 10 gold for Metal Casting
Will trade Code of Laws for Compass + 40 gold
Has Meditation (must ... resist ... another joke)
Has Currency but "We don't want to start trading away this tech just yet"

Will trade Code of Laws Erkon, would you kindly refrain from embarassing BP any more during this turnset!

First you blow his Worker-Bait™ Theory all to heck and now you find someone who's willing to trade CoL.

Just leave our Captain alone (and stop entertaining ideas of a mutiny, too.)

Erkon, would you kindly refrain from embarassing BP any more during this turnset!

First you blow his Worker-Bait™ Theory all to heck and now you find someone who's willing to trade CoL.

Just leave our Captain alone (and stop entertaining ideas of a mutiny, too.)

I am sorry to say that we now have Code of Laws (for Compass + 40 gold). It was not my intention to overthrow Mr BIG, but if that's what it takes to loose as quickly as possible, well, then someone has to do the dirtywork.

Status as of 65 AD

Status as of 65 AD

Great play Erkon! :goodjob:

Still cracking up at your joke. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Teaser turn 65 AD
Assault on Old Sarai commences.
GG @ 14 XP
Defenders ***Classified***

Sword attacks Longbowman @ 20%
6.6 vs 8.10
Sword defeated
Scored 4 hits @ 18 HP
Received 5 hits @ 22 HP
Longbowman @ 1.7 strength
Conclusion: good :)

etc, etc.

And we wonder why our post count is 5x larger than anyone else's

Great work Erkon.

Anything going on with G?

Just leave our Captain alone (and stop entertaining ideas of a mutiny, too.) Someone is going to be walking the plank soon....

Still cracking up at your joke. :lol: :lol: :lol:Hey, if you'd ever been to the zoo, you'd know that diarrheal hippopotamus dung splatter is not funny. :cringe:

I'm sending Erkon a bill for the new carpet. :gripe:

BTW, Erkon, are you still playing or did you forget to upload the file?

Hey, if you'd ever been to the zoo, you'd know that diarrheal hippopotamus dung splatter is not funny. :cringe:

I'm sending Erkon a bill for the new carpet. :gripe:

I wish I could have seen your face reading that post. Absolute priceless :lol: :lol: :lol:

etc, etc.

And we wonder why our post count is 5x larger than anyone else's

Great work Erkon.

Anything going on with G?

He has moved his trireme towards our clam, but the eastern caravel will be back next turn, just in time to save the clam :D

And G now has both Drama and Music. He's first in score and tech leader.

BTW, Erkon, are you still playing or did you forget to upload the file?

I plan to play until construction (another three turns), since that is a decision point. However, it's fine with me to upload and let Gnejs take over. The next few turns are rather simple, so I trust the hysterical bi*ch can play them. On the other hand, he may want some challenge. I'll play in a couple of hours if noone objects. :cool:

Was is clear from the screenshot that GK is sending his settler to the east, and a pair of archers to the west?

I plan to play until construction (another three turns), since that is a decision point. However, it's fine with me to upload and let Gnejs take over. The next few turns are rather simple, so I trust the hysterical bi*ch can play them. On the other hand, he may want some challenge. I'll play in a couple of hours if noone objects. :cool:Play on, Maestro! Make Gnejs wait a bit longer, he'll be bloodthirstier that way.

Was is clear from the screenshot that GK is sending his settler to the east, and a pair of archers to the west?No I somehow missed that. That's interesting.

The idiot!

Play on, Maestro! Make Gnejs wait a bit longer, he'll be bloodthirstier that way.

No I somehow missed that. That's interesting.

The idiot!

Erm, I forgot to mention that the settler was of course escorted. But he left his capital with three longbowmen...

Erm, I forgot to mention that the settler was of course escorted. But he left his capital with three longbowmen...

Good. I expect to see it in our hands when I get the save from you... :p

Well, I've decided to upload instead of playing another four turns. Shall we press on towards Karak or not? Shall we let units heal in OS? Shall we divert units toward iron/horses? If I had played on, I would have healed and defended instead of attacking Karak, but I will let Gnejs play those turns. Further on, I would have connected spice and whip CC for aqueduct. And I would have moved units to the horse/iron tiles.

Turn log
Turn 170, 50 AD: The villagers give you gold! You have received 43 gold!
Turn 170, 50 AD: Christianity has been founded in Bombay!
Turn 170, 50 AD: Gandhi adopts Theocracy!
Turn 170, 50 AD: New Tech(s) to trade: Gandhi, Genghis Khan

Turn 171, 65 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Cape Fish!
Turn 171, 65 AD: You have captured Old Sarai!!!
Turn 171, 65 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 44 ? for Cape Fish.
Turn 171, 65 AD: You have discovered Code of Laws!
Turn 171, 65 AD: You have constructed a Granary in Cape Fish. Work has now begun on a Library.
Turn 171, 65 AD: Isabella adopts Hereditary Rule!
Turn 171, 65 AD: New Tech(s) to trade: Gandhi, Hannibal

Turn 172, 80 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Cape Fish!

We now have 3 4 ways to get Civs in contact with Gandhi:

Trade Optics
Build culture bridge from the island W of Horse Island
Gift caravels
Gift cities (appropriately located)

Gift caravels
[/LIST]

My god, that was clever! :worship:

I suggest we pick Hannibal as trading partner to Gandhi. Perhaps we can do the Caravel-GiftingTM at once?

My god, that was clever! Thanks, but actually it's just my worldbuilder addiction--in some tests I have planted AI galleys or scouts next to me in 3970bc so they all meet me instantly.... And btw, did you know that galleys do pop goody huts on coastal tiles and also kill the ensuing warriors that can walk on water? :lol:

I suggest we pick Hannibal as trading partner to Gandhi. I definitely agree, but when? Perhaps we can do the Caravel-GiftingTM at once? Don't we want to circumnavigate asap?Some thoughts on Gandhi's trading partners.

Thought 1. As we know from SG3, there are two time periods relevant to AI attitudes: pre- and post-Free Religion. (Is Gyathaar evil or a genius educator? I vote for the latter.) Interestingly, every civ we've met, except GK, has founded his own religion, thus is likely to be annoyed or cautious with Gandhi until FR or at least for many turns while they slowly improve their attitudes, unless we manipulate that by going to war.

So we have a delicate situation. Take Hannibal: He's financial and teching like mad--great trading partner for Gandhi, right? What if he meets Gandhi too soon and DOWs him because of religious differences? Not good. But for now we don't want to DOW Hannibal because he'll be a useful tech trader for us till after we have made our move. Hm....

Conclusion: To find a pre-FR tech trader for Gandhi, we need to

keep Gk alive until FR, or
implant Judaism somewhere else fast, or
figure out which AIs will not hate on Gandhi too much for rel diffs, or
find an AI we do want to DOW soon, or
make sure that Hannibal always hates someone more than Gandhi, or
…?

Thought 2. We also need to find another Civ that is researching the culture path, as Gandhi is, and we need that Civ to meet Gandhi asap (if needed) so that Civ won't think he's got a monopoly on those techs and will trade them to us. Then we can get GK and Gandhi to share techs. And we need Music asap--extremely useful for quickly expanding city borders to the fat cross (first build: culture).

Thought 3. We want our continent completely settled, to our liking, before others get Astro and before Hannibal gets a culture bridge from the SW.

Of course, we can't really make a decision on these issues till we have met all the main players, but we do now know that Hannibal is #1 in producing gold (and we're #1 in hammer production!).

Both Brennus and Hannibal know Isabella, so those three must be on the same land mass or 2-3 culturally connected land masses with Isa in the middle. I think the the SW caravel should go to the S of Hannibal, not to the N.]

Plus, this may mean that our two scouts can finish our circumnavigation.

Got it.

Will try to have a look at the save later today, expect to play tomorrow.

Brennus #1 in food, #3 in hammers behind Gandhi and us, but has bad commerce and is just to our E. I agree with Erkon on him being a good target for new home. Also gives us a some sort of direct access to Isabella and Hannibal, who we'll need to to control.

Erkon, I may have forgotten to congratulate you on an excellent turnset. Great warmongering, exploring, hut-popping. :goodjob: In fact, you were kind of lucky, you got to do a little of everything!!! Even micromanagement! ;) Speaking of which...

Here's my old-fashioned, I'm-a-stupid-American, pre-Euro math:

Before:
CC: citizen on plains/hill 2h/1g
GC: citizen on gold../hill 2h/8g
Total: 4h/9g

After:
CC: citizen on gold../hill 2h/8g
GC: citizen on plains/hill 4h/1g
Total: 6h/9g

Before:
CF: citizen on plains 1f/1h
CF: citizen on grass 2f
Total: 3f/1h

After:
CF: citizen on grass/forest 2f/1h
CF: citizen on sheep........ 3f
Total: 5f/1h

Now, Captain Big said:
Altho' you may fuind it dull to micromanage please try to think through all your decisions and try to check each city on a regular basis to optimize builds, growth, specialists etc and each AI to optimize diplomacy (your 10 turns will feel longer that way.....:) )

...Enjoy!!Now I know that Sony/Ericcson does not hire engineers who have flunked out of Complex Numbers, so Erkon, I was wondering if I could be so impertinent as to ask you a personal question:

Have you ever had an orgasMM? :lol: Don't answer that!

"Weeeeeelllllll, IIIIIIIII have..." -Jimi Hendrix

Erkon, I may have forgotten to congratulate you on an excellent turnset. Great warmongering, exploring, hut-popping. :goodjob: In fact, you were kind of lucky, you got to do a little of everything!!! Even micromanagement! ;) Speaking of which...

Here's my old-fashioned, I'm-a-stupid-American, pre-Euro math:

Before:
CC: citizen on plains/hill 2h/1g
GC: citizen on gold../hill 2h/8g
Total: 4h/9g

After:
CC: citizen on gold../hill 2h/8g
GC: citizen on plains/hill 4h/1g
Total: 6h/9g

Before:
CF: citizen on plains 1f/1h
CF: citizen on grass 2f
Total: 3f/1h

After:
CF: citizen on grass/forest 2f/1h
CF: citizen on sheep........ 3f
Total: 5f/1h

Now, Captain Big said:
Now I know that Sony/Ericcson does not hire engineers who have flunked out of Complex Numbers, so Erkon, I was wondering if I could be so impertinent as to ask you a personal question:

Have you ever had an orgasMM? :lol: Don't answer that!

"Weeeeeelllllll, IIIIIIIII have..." -Jimi Hendrix

@LC: Many thanks for saving me the chore of being grumpy old Captain BP and having to slap Erkon's legs.

I know MM is dull (for all of us except LC) but we need to optimize tile usage to maximise growth, production and commerce.....

Erkon, I may have forgotten to congratulate you on an excellent turnset. Great warmongering, exploring, hut-popping. :goodjob: In fact, you were kind of lucky, you got to do a little of everything!!! Even micromanagement! ;)

Thank you for your kind words. The first few turns did not go well, but since I managed to take OS, Im satisfied. The rest was more or less standard play. And yes, I consider myself lucky with such an eventful turnset. That's why I'm happy to turn over to Mr Prophet a little bit early.


Speaking of which...

Here's my old-fashioned, I'm-a-stupid-American, pre-Euro math:

Before:
CC: citizen on plains/hill 2h/1g
GC: citizen on gold../hill 2h/8g
Total: 4h/9g

After:
CC: citizen on gold../hill 2h/8g
GC: citizen on plains/hill 4h/1g
Total: 6h/9g

Before:
CF: citizen on plains 1f/1h
CF: citizen on grass 2f
Total: 3f/1h

After:
CF: citizen on grass/forest 2f/1h
CF: citizen on sheep........ 3f
Total: 5f/1h
...

You are of course correct :blush: . CF just expanded though (if I remember correct), so Im not sure I wasted any food. Perhaps.

We now have 3 4 ways to get Civs in contact with Gandhi:

Trade Optics
Build culture bridge from the island W of Horse Island
Gift caravels
Gift cities (appropriately located)


Excellent. Definately the sort of out of the box thinking we need. Gifting caravels is very attractive - although not yet - we don't have enough naval defence of our own yet. The culture bridge idea, while less elegant, has the added advantage of connecting the AIs for trade pre-astronomy

I suggest we pick Hannibal as trading partner to Gandhi. Perhaps we can do the Caravel-GiftingTM at once?

[B]Some thoughts on Gandhi's trading partners...
Of course, we can't really make a decision on these issues till we have met all the main players, but we do now know that Hannibal is #1 in producing gold (and we're #1 in hammer production!).

Both Brennus and Hannibal know Isabella, so those three must be on the same land mass or 2-3 culturally connected land masses with Isa in the middle. I think the the SW caravel should go to the S of Hannibal, not to the N.]

Plus, this may mean that our two scouts can finish our circumnavigation.

Don't forget we also have 2 more civs to find - lets avoid rushing to conclusions as to who our and Gandhi's friends should be until we have the full picture. We also need to be very careful in whom we trade with and whom we gift stuff to. Brennus is already annoyed with us for trading with Isa - maybe not such a big deal as he is backwards anyway and possibly squatting in our new homeland, but it does mean we need to scout out his lands and find his strategic resources asap before he cancels the Open Borders with us (which he will do as soon as the 10 turns is up). And no free caravels to anyone until we have circumnavigated and have enough naval defence of our own!!!

WTF? It is vcirtually non-existant. Maybe I am such a bad warmonger because I don't like taking risks, but if Gandhi sends a couple of galleys full of WEs and swords to CF or CC or NS we are in big trouble.

Now I know we updated 2 triremes for caravel exploration, but that means we have to replace them (preferably with caravels rather than triremes) and use the units we do have cleverly.

So, the GC trireme build should be sped up by working the plain hill mine and we should consider whipping a caravel in MC once the TP is built. In the meantime the GC trireme should be upgraded to a caravel and based in the G-canal 2NW of Delhi (while moving up towards Bombay each turn to check for naval activity there). That way we can look for naval builds in Delhi and Bombay and can hopefully move quickly enough to stop galleys from either direction

Brennus is already annoyed with us for trading with Isa - maybe not such a big deal as he is backwards anyway and possibly squatting in our new homeland, but it does mean we need to scout out his lands and find his strategic resources asap before he cancels the Open Borders with us (which he will do as soon as the 10 turns is up).If I'm not mistaken, we haven't gifted Brennus our +4 tech yet, is that right, Erkon? We might or might not want to do that, I don't know, but it would get him up to cautious, I'm pretty sure.

Naval Defence. WTF? It is vcirtually non-existant. To say nothing of a galley to get an axe/sword to Horse Island.

When to finish the National Epic????

NE finishes in 1 turn. That's good and bad. We DON'T want it to finish before we are ready to hire those 2 scientist back--otherwise we're giving ourselves a 25% chance of popping a GA! Right now we could work 2 scientists but our pop would be stuck at pop8. Not bad, but not great. I'd rather see us postpone completion of NE and borrow the GC pigs long enough to grow to at least pop10, if not pop11. We'll have fish and sheep healthies soon if we chop a wb in CF, (which I thought we were already doing...). Of course, borrowing the pigs slows down the trireme in GC, alas...

We have NO NEED for Caste Systems if we don't have more population in MW.

And no more poprushing in MW.

If I'm not mistaken, we haven't gifted Brennus our +4 tech yet, is that right, Erkon? We might or might not want to do that, I don't know, but it would get him up to cautious, I'm pretty sure.
True - but would piss off Isa. All the more reason to meet everyone and assess the diplomatic situation before gifting away any more techs or doing any more trades

We should be able to finish our scout's exploration of Brennus' lands in the next 8 turns or so.

When to finish the National Epic????
I'd rather see us postpone completion of NE and borrow the GC pigs long enough to grow to at least pop10.....
We have NO NEED for Caste Systems if we don't have more population in MW.

And no more poprushing in MW.
Agree 100% with this. We need a fishing boat build next in MW for CF (once the Gandhi trireme threat has been dealt with....)

We should be able to finish our scout's exploration of Brennus' lands in the next 8 turns or so.FIne by me, but there is one caveat--it seems to be easier to keep open borders than get them back once they've been cancelled, so it might be wise to pause to think about that 1 turn before they expire with Brennus. (ha ha, like anyone's going to pay that close attention, LC, you dumb jerk).

FIne by me, but there is one caveat--it seems to be easier to keep open borders than get them back once they've been cancelled, so it might be wise to pause to think about that 1 turn before they expire with Brennus. (ha ha, like anyone's going to pay that close attention, LC, you dumb jerk).
Our army of Beserkers will open his borders......:hammer:

Don't forget we also have 2 more civs to find - lets avoid rushing to conclusions as to who our and Gandhi's friends should be until we have the full picture.

Yes, we should perhaps wait until we met all AI. BTW, I thought we were missing only one AI?

Thank you for your kind words. The first few turns did not go well, Well, next time Big Pig recommends one of his Grand Theories, be sure to read the fine print... :lol: but since I managed to take OS, Im satisfied. The rest was more or less standard play. And yes, I consider myself lucky with such an eventful turnset. That's why I'm happy to turn over to Mr Prophet a little bit early.

You are of course correct :blush:. So should I take that as a "no, never"? :lol: Don't answer that either. CF just expanded though (if I remember correct), so Im not sure I wasted any food. Perhaps.CF was no biggie, just a couple of turns. We do need to be careful though, because there may be situations where it will make a significant difference. That's one reason why I try to recommend MM steps for each turnset--I know you guys don't experience my Ecstasy and I'm just trying to make it easier for you guys, by pointing the details I think important.

I sure hope you guys don't take it like I'm trying to dictate everything, because that's not my intention and that would be a shame. MM is minute but vital, whereas our collective, global decisions are huge and vital.

Hey, check this out: The Great Wall is fogbusting for us, even though it's not ours. Does that mean Old Sarai is still protected from barbs, even though we've taken it from GK?

WTF? It is vcirtually non-existant. Maybe I am such a bad warmonger because I don't like taking risks, but if Gandhi sends a couple of galleys full of WEs and swords to CF or CC or NS we are in big trouble.

Now I know we updated 2 triremes for caravel exploration, but that means we have to replace them (preferably with caravels rather than triremes) and use the units we do have cleverly.

So, the GC trireme build should be sped up by working the plain hill mine and we should consider whipping a caravel in MC once the TP is built. In the meantime the GC trireme should be upgraded to a caravel and based in the G-canal 2NW NE? of Delhi (while moving up towards Bombay each turn to check for naval activity there). That way we can look for naval builds in Delhi and Bombay and can hopefully move quickly enough to stop galleys from either direction

If Gandhi sends a couple of galleys with WE and swords, we're in big trouble period. We need more than one trireme to stop such a fleet. With the replacement we get in five turns, I think we have enough defense on the west coast.

It's clever to upgrade the trirem to caravel for the extra movement. Will a caravel 2 NE of Delhi see what's in the city?

Do we need another caravel on the east coast? I want cats :ninja:

If I'm not mistaken, we haven't gifted Brennus our +4 tech yet, is that right, Erkon? We might or might not want to do that, I don't know, but it would get him up to cautious, I'm pretty sure.

I didn't gift him a tech since I didn't consider him useful and I don't see any reason to be nice to him. :lol:

To say nothing of a galley to get an axe/sword to Horse Island.

We can start building a galley in two turns when NS grows. It will take us another 15 turns though.

With the replacement we get in five turns, I think we have enough defense on the west coast. I agree.

It's clever to upgrade the trirem to caravel for the extra movement. Will a caravel 2 NE of Delhi see what's in the city? I don't see how.
Do we need another caravel on the east coast? Were you planning to leave that one there? I want cats :ninja:It would be clever to pre-build a cat and a sword in MW, if it seems like we're going to get that Great General soon, which seems inevitable with Gnejs coming up next...:DI didn't gift him a tech since I didn't consider him useful and I don't see any reason to be nice to him. :lol:You Vikings all think alike. I'm trying to catch on...

When to finish the National Epic????

NE finishes in 1 turn. That's good and bad. We DON'T want it to finish before we are ready to hire those 2 scientist back--otherwise we're giving ourselves a 25% chance of popping a GA! Right now we could work 2 scientists but our pop would be stuck at pop8. Not bad, but not great. I'd rather see us postpone completion of NE and borrow the GC pigs long enough to grow to at least pop10, if not pop11. We'll have fish and sheep healthies soon if we chop a wb in CF, (which I thought we were already doing...). Of course, borrowing the pigs slows down the trireme in GC, alas...

We have NO NEED for Caste Systems if we don't have more population in MW.

And no more poprushing in MW.

We're already at both happiness and health cap in MW. We get sheep in six (?) turns, and spice in about 10 turns. We get sheep in 3 (?) turns. Whip-unhappiness wears of in 11 turns. If we assign one scientist now, we have eight turns to connect the spice before we grow. We could sneak in a caravel at MW (takes five turns), then complete NE, then build cats!

The spice worker should stop chopping and build road. One of the worker on the sugar should move to the grassland tile and build road. Then both workers move to cut down jungle. Perhaps we can time it to start building the plantati on the same turn NS expands border.

Another (better?) idea is to move the warrior from CF to MW, build a caravel instead of HE, then complete HE when MW grows. Then assign two scientists.

MW would then have an unhappy guy in two turns.

EDIT:

We have no need for Caste unless MW works the pig. Are we prepared to let GC starve? Is it worth it?

And yes, I agree that we should wait with the whip until we have astronomy.

EDIT2:

I still don't know if it was clever to whip the sword in MW. Future will tell.

... All the more reason to meet everyone and assess the diplomatic situation before gifting away any more techs or doing any more trades ...

I agree...

Agree 100% with this. We need a fishing boat build next in MW for CF (once the Gandhi trireme threat has been dealt with....)

Hmm, we're already building a WB in CF. I think we can trust Gnejs to manage to build nets with only one WB... :p

It's clever to upgrade the trirem to caravel for the extra movement. Will a caravel 2 NE of Delhi see what's in the city?

Yes I think it will (ignore LC - he knows nothing). The converse is true as Delhi is on a hill.

When GC builds the trireme, then yes, we should have enough naval defence for the west coast.

I would leave a caravel on the north coast to stop more Gandhi-boats coming over the top.

FIne by me, but there is one caveat--it seems to be easier to keep open borders than get them back once they've been cancelled, so it might be wise to pause to think about that 1 turn before they expire with Brennus. (ha ha, like anyone's going to pay that close attention, LC, you dumb jerk).

The best way to handle Brennus is to demand tribute right away. Let the anger consume his dark heart!!! Push him into furious. Push him to declare. Then we kill him! Kill them all!!!! :aargh:

We're already at both happiness and health cap in MW. We get sheep in six (?) turns, and spice in about 10 turns. We get sheep in 3 (?) turns. Whip-unhappiness wears of in 11 turns. If we assign one scientist now, we have eight turns to connect the spice before we grow. We could sneak in a caravel at MW (takes five turns), then complete NE, then build cats! A wb for the CF fish will help will health

EDIT: Crosspost! But it would be more efiicient to build it in MW no? - and use CF's limited production for stuff like TPs etc

Hey, check this out: The Great Wall is fogbusting for us, even though it's not ours. Does that mean Old Sarai is still protected from barbs, even though we've taken it from GK?

The graphics is only graphics. It is a reflection of the cultural boundary at the time it was built.

Yes I think it will (ignore LC - he knows nothing). The converse is true as Delhi is on a hill.

When GC builds the trireme, then yes, we should have enough naval defence for the west coast.

I would leave a caravel on the north coast to stop more Gandhi-boats coming over the top.

Sir yes sir! I will ignore him until you request me to pay attention.

I didn't notice Delhi was on a hill, so yes, we can see him. Mr Boss, you are so clever. I envy your brilliance! :bowdown:

Me thinks it's better to have one caravel close to MW that can handle both Gandhi ships and GK ships. If Gandhi sends a galley up north, he will most probably capture the barbarian city.

I think we should use New Sarai for unit production, not as a naval base. At least if we're going for Brennus. We should thus abandon the TS and start on Barracks, then Heroic Epic. There's lots of mines and food, so should be a great military production site. Or do we dare to build the HE in MW with the risk of poluting the GS?

Were you planning to leave that one there?

It would be clever to pre-build a cat and a sword in MW, if it seems like we're going to get that Great General soon, which seems inevitable with Gnejs coming up next...

We can leave the caravel since we don't have to send it to the east. We could send it three turns away, and still get back to defend future invasions.

Pre-builds are nice since it also saves maintenance. Unless Gnejs wastes the swords we have, we don't need anything else than cats now.

I sure hope you guys don't take it like I'm trying to dictate everything, because that's not my intention and that would be a shame. MM is minute but vital, whereas our collective, global decisions are huge and vital.

I appreciate the MM-ideas you provide. I also appreciate that you know rules I don't. It's just that I loose concentration on the big picture if I concentrate too much on MM, so sometimes I miss obvious MM.

I appreciate the MM-ideas you provide. I also appreciate that you know rules I don't. It's just that I loose concentration on the big picture if I concentrate too much on MM, so sometimes I miss obvious MM.
That is one of the big attractions of SGOTM - everybody contributing different strengths to the game. Except Gnejs, obviously.....

A wb for the CF fish will help will health

EDIT: Crosspost! But it would be more efiicient to build it in MW no? - and use CF's limited production for stuff like TPs etc

Typo: I mean fish in three turns.

A work boat in MW is 3/4 cat. And 3/4 cat is more important than a TS in CF. We will delay the CF but we can whip it within 10 turns. We can't whip in MW.

The three turns it takes for MW to build the work boat means that the war against GK is delayed three turns. During that time, he can build at least one longbow. :(

That is one of the big attractions of SGOTM - everybody contributing different strengths to the game. Except Gnejs, obviously.....

Gnejs contribution is to play as few turns a possible. He'll probably screw up and waste the HUGE score lead we have.:cry:

A wb for the CF fish...would be more efiicient to build it in MW no? - and use CF's limited production for stuff like TPs etcDefinitely, in cities with low-hammers, it's generally better to only build things that can't be imported.
The graphics is only graphics. It is a reflection of the cultural boundary at the time it was built.I'm not talking about the graphics, that is, the wall itself--I'm talking about defogged surroundings--as if we had phantom units to the west. Really, take a look at it.
I think we should use New Sarai for unit production, not as a naval base. At least if we're going for Brennus. We should thus abandon the TS and start on Barracks, then Heroic Epic. There's lots of mines and food, so should be a great military production site. Or do we dare to build the HE in MW with the risk of poluting the GS?I really think HE in either would be more wasteful than beneficial. HE in Brown City, where we have tons of hammers and forest to rapidly build the HE and plenty of food to support the hammers, or on our new continent where we can useit to the end of the game. I vote for the second, because we're planning to leave anyway.

EDIT: BUt I do agree with the idea of building land units in NS (just not HE). Question for me is, which is more effective, barracks>units or granary>barracks>units.

Speaking of Brown City. It's time we got rid of Barb City before those archers upgrade to LBs.

That is one of the big attractions of SGOTM - everybody contributing different strengths to the game. Except Gnejs, obviously.....Are you saying that Gnejs' contribution so far today has been a strength?! :lol:
A work boat in MW is 3/4 cat. And 3/4 cat is more important than a TS in CF. We will delay the CF but we can whip it within 10 turns. We can't whip in MW. Well, it's not about CF, it's about the health bonus for MW, so we can get more scientists running there asap for Astro...

The three turns it takes for MW to build the work boat means that the war against GK is delayed three turns. During that time, he can build at least one longbow. :(Basically it's a trade-off: Do we put more energy into GK's jugular or into popping the next GS?

Bottom line: We wasting our time talking about it, because Gnejs is next and we all know he's going to switch every build to sword anyway... :lol:

Gnejs contribution is to play as few turns a possible. He'll probably screw up and waste the HUGE score lead we have.:cry:

Errr.... who was it that didn't dare to play his full compliment of turns? This time either...

...chicken. :p



I am following your discussion, but haven't had the time to chime in until now. Second day in a row that I am home tending sick kids. Since the mrs got home I have done nothing but slept and eaten. :eek:


Will have to take a look at the save, but I have the following plans for now. Please comment and correct me where you think needed or add more details:

1. Kill or drive away Gandhis trireme
2. Continue western exploration with caravel
3. Continue exploring with scouts
4. MM with greater success than Erkon
5. Genghis war:
Still undecided, will really have to study the situation first. Three longbows in Karakorum is a bit much pre-cats though. I would rather try to eliminate the moving archers before they upgrade, and especially kill the settler (or the city it founds). Btw, did we get all of GKs workers? It would be nice if GK builds settlers and workers instead of longbows...
Have a new look at the Iron and Horses. We wouldn't want to let down our guard on those.

Bah, interrupted by the little rascals again. Back in a while. :mad:

Definitely, in cities with low-hammers, it's generally better to only build things that can't be imported.
In general, this is true. But in this case, we can whip those buildings.
I'm not talking about the graphics, that is, the wall itself--I'm talking about defogged surroundings--as if we had phantom units to the west. Really, take a look at it.
Yeah, strange! It's as if the Chariot in OS has a visibility promotion...
I really think either would be more wasteful than beneficial. HE in Brown City, where we have tons of hammers and forest to rapidly build the HE and plenty of food to support the hammers, or on our new continent where we can useit to the end of the game. I vote for the second, because we're planning to leave anyway.

Speaking of Brown City. It's time we got rid of Barb City before those archers upgrade to LBs.

It will take us 10 turns to move the swords back, and then another 10 turns to get them to GK. At that time, we'll have enough cats to attack.

Do you think we need lots of military production on our new continent?

Brown City is nice for Brennus, but too far away for GK. Hmm....

... Since the mrs got home I have done nothing but slept and eaten. :eek:


Thanks for that mental image I didn't invite! Really, we don't want to know what you do with your loved one.

Since the mrs got home I have done nothing but slept and eaten. So she feeds you, then tires you out...poor guy...

Will have to take a look at the save, but I have the following plans for now. Please comment and correct me where you think needed or add more details:

1. Kill or drive away Gandhis trireme Think GG XP
2. Continue western exploration with caravel I think you want to loop back down around to the South and then West, if that looks right, as I said eaerlier today. NW is probably just Isa and Brennen.
3. Continue exploring with scouts BP wants you to do reconnaisance on Brennen's land before he boots us out.
4. MM with greater success than Erkon Keyword: orgasMM... :crazyeye:
5. Genghis war:
Still undecided, will really have to study the situation first. Three longbows in Karakorum is a bit much pre-cats though. I would rather try to eliminate the moving archers before they upgrade, and especially kill the settler (or the city it founds). Btw, did we get all of GKs workers? It would be nice if GK builds settlers and workers instead of longbows...
Have a new look at the Iron and Horses. We wouldn't want to let down our guard on those.Ideally, you'll be able to get those last 8 XP so we can build double-promotion cats in MW.

Erkon mentioned switching the NS build to barracks, I prefer the fastest galley you can micromanage, and putting an axe on Horse Island.

Don't finish NE till you're ready to hire 2 scientists.

Yeah, strange! It's as if the Chariot in OS has a visibility promotion... :mad: Am I getting a feeling of deja vu? Didn't you forget to tell me something...like: don't report the bug yet... ;)

It will take us 10 turns to move the swords back, and then another 10 turns to get them to GK. At that time, we'll have enough cats to attack. Nooooooooooooooooo, silly. First cats for GK, then 3 new swords for BarbCity. Sheesh. MW will be making them at ~1 unit/3t from now on.

Do you think we need lots of military production on our new continent? Heck yes. We will police those ho's. Pillage all their mines, force them to research fast, but build no armies, hee heee heeee. We have to make sure they are weaker and less productive than Gandhi.

Brown City is nice for Brennus, but too far away for GK. Hmm....Well, I must admit, from teh very beginning I thougth HE in Brown City was the ticket. It's a question of how long do we plan to keep it and will we need HE thereafter?

Thanks for that mental image I didn't invite! Really, we don't want to know what you do with your loved one.He was talking about his wife, not his grandmother, you kinky freakjob... :crazyeye:

Keyword: orgasMM... :aargh: No! I don't want that mental image!!! :aargh:
...Erkon mentioned switching the NS build to barracks, I prefer the fastest galley you can micromanage, and putting an axe on Horse Island.
...

Hmm, isn't it better if GK builds Keshiks instead of LBM? We can defeat Keshiks with spearmen easier than we can defeat LBM?

Hmm, isn't it better if GK builds Keshiks instead of LBM? We can defeat Keshiks with spearmen easier than we can defeat LBM?Sorry. I'll try to be serious, though you're asking a lot now.

Interesting idea on the Keshiks. I've never gone up against them, so I leave that one up to you guys. The idea of a horde of Keshiks hightailing it through our jungle doesn't attract me, though.

I don't think we need to be afraid for the AI launching faster than Gandhi. We can destroy the mines with spies. By just declaring war, we'll ensure they will not launch first.

I don't think we need to be afraid for the AI launching faster than Gandhi. We can destroy the mines with spies. By just declaring war, we'll ensure they will not launch first.

I don't want to be picky, but that is precisely what we have done with Gandhi. :)

But I understand what you mean. Honestly. :)

Hmm, isn't it better if GK builds Keshiks instead of LBM? We can defeat Keshiks with spearmen easier than we can defeat LBM?

Brilliant. Let him have his horses back. That saves us the hassle of policing those resources. Iron still needs to be checked though.

"No defensive bonuses", does that include culture also?

Brilliant. Let him have his horses back. That saves us the hassle of policing those resources. Iron still needs to be checked though.

"No defensive bonuses", does that include culture also?
Are we sure about this? At present GK is firmly on the defensive. With a posse of Keshiks he may go pillaging our lands

Brilliant. Let him have his horses back. That saves us the hassle of policing those resources. Iron still needs to be checked though.

"No defensive bonuses", does that include culture also?BUt there are two catches to this, that I see: 1) GK won't build just Keshiks, he'll build both; 2) we are then forced to build both spears and swrods and how are we going to know which and if we attack witht eh spear, he defends with the lb...

Do what you guys think is right, but think it out all the way to the end, including the micromanagment of building this, that and the other...

I would rather try to eliminate the moving archers before they upgrade

You could start by attacking the archer W of Beshlabik with the chariot on turn 0.......

Sorry. I'll try to be serious, though you're asking a lot now.

Interesting idea on the Keshiks. I've never gone up against them, so I leave that one up to you guys. The idea of a horde of Keshiks hightailing it through our jungle doesn't attract me, though.

As long as we can maintain a choking point south of OS, and place guardian on the mountain ranges east and west, Keshiks will not be such a problem. We can put spearmen on the hamlet and corn. With barracks and GG, we get level three units from start. Thats about 10 in strength against Keshiks. And we can attack them on forest and hills. I'm actually tempted to suggest that we let GK rebuild the pasture to the east...

Regarding HE: BW gets 23 hammers, NS gets 15. That 2*8 hammers in difference. But when shall we let Gandhi settle in the north?

BUt there are two catches to this, that I see: 1) GK won't build just Keshiks, he'll build both; 2) we are then forced to build both spears and swrods and how are we going to know which and if we attack witht eh spear, he defends with the lb...

Do what you guys think is right, but think it out all the way to the end, including the micromanagment of building this, that and the other...

We only use our spears defensively. Keep one or two with our main stack, and one or two as backups to catch the stray Keshik that threatens our land.

We always attack with swords/cats. A sword will have much better odds against a Keshik than against a LB. So, if he defends with Keshiks, great for us. If he builds less LBs, great for us. etc.

You could start by attacking the archer W of Beshlabik with the chariot on turn 0.......That tile has two archers, so the chariot will die to the second...

BUt there are two catches to this, that I see: 1) GK won't build just Keshiks, he'll build both; 2) we are then forced to build both spears and swrods and how are we going to know which and if we attack witht eh spear, he defends with the lb...

Do what you guys think is right, but think it out all the way to the end, including the micromanagment of building this, that and the other...

The trick is that he will attack with a Keshik as soon as he builds them. We're not facing a huge stack of them. Perhaps two at a time. Since they move faster than LBM, we don't need to attack both. And if they're defending cities, so much better! But I think he'll switch over to Keshiks as soon as he can, and then we can keep his unit count low. And we gain XP for defeating Keshiks.

Spearmen are cheaper than cats and swordsmen, but I don't think we'll build that many of them. We'll mainly loose cats, and only a few swords and spear. And as soon as we get Engineering, well, he can kiss his keshiks goodby :D

That tile has two archers, so the chariot will die to the second...

Only if he attacks the chariot. And if he do, we'll counter attack with our stack. First I was reluctant to this idea. But we will trade a chariot for two archers (will be longbowmen). But he will probably not attack, since he knows he will loose the second archer.

But the odds are not that good. I don't think Gnejs dares to.

We only use our spears defensively. Keep one or two with our main stack, and one or two as backups to catch the stray Keshik that threatens our land.

We always attack with swords/cats. A sword will have much better odds against a Keshik than against a LB. So, if he defends with Keshiks, great for us. If he builds less LBs, great for us. etc.Okay, you de boss. So now it boils down to us being smart about timing this all, right? Not too soon and not too slowly. That puts you up to bat, Gnejs. BTW...
Brilliant. Wazzup with that? Idiots aren't brilliant...

Only if he attacks the chariot. And if he do, we'll counter attack with our stack. First I was reluctant to this idea. But we will trade a chariot for two archers (will be longbowmen). But he will probably not attack, since he knows he will loose the second archer.

But the odds are not that good. I don't think Gnejs dares to.Hey, if it gets us to 30XP sooner, then it's worth it.

(but there's no stack to counter-attack with. That's my point. The archer will dive in to Beshbalik)

That tile has two archers, so the chariot will die to the second...
:confused: :confused: :confused:

Not unless the second archer also defeats the spear and axe in the same stack.

EDIT: There are 2 archers, right. So, we attack the first one and kill it (hopefully). But because the second archer is present, the chariot does not advance onto the tile and so stays where it started - with the stack. It is not rocket science..... (hey - isn't that what we are meant to be teaching Gandhi?)

If we're not worried about the horses and the iron is still in no man's land, do we want to declare a truce after we get to 30XP? We're already getting war weariness in MW.

EDIT: Just long enough to build up our cat/sword SOD, of course.

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Not unless the second archer also defeats the spear and axe in the same stack.I swear to God, last time I moused over that chariot was alone... :blush: :lol:

Kill'emall!!!

If we're not worried about the horses and the iron is still in no man's land, do we want to declare a truce after we get to 30XP? We're already getting war weariness in MW.

EDIT: Just long enough to build up our cat/sword SOD, of course.

It would be good if GK gave us HBR for the privelege (not Meditation.....!)

(not Meditation.....!)Luckily, by the time Erkon takes his next turnset, it won't matter anymore... :p

BUt I meant a truce (cease fire) not a peace treaty...so we can attack the iron on a moment's notice, if need be.

Luckily, by the time Erkon takes his next turnset, it won't matter anymore... :p Yeah, since someone will probably scr*w up

BUt I meant a truce not a peace treaty...

Is there a difference?

Is there a difference?Of course. Peace treaty lasts for 10 turns minimum. Cease fire we can cancel any time we want.

I doubt we'll need 10 turns to get our SOD ready (from the time Gnejs FINALLY gets 30XP), but if we will, let's grab a tech in the exchange, why not?

EDIT: BUt if Gnejs knows anything at all about the art of negotiation, he'll get Feudalism rather tha HBR...

Of course. Peace treaty lasts for 10 turns minimum. Cease fire we can cancel any time we want.

I doubt we'll need 10 turns to get our SOD ready (from the time Gnejs FINALLY gets 30XP), but if we will, let's grab a tech in the exchange, why not?

You know what? I haven't used the cease fire option a single time since I bought civ4. If it kills WW, then that's another thing to add to the list of good lessons from this sucession game. Thanks guys, keep it up with the bright ideas.


Btw, to get tech we must have a peace treaty unless I am totally wrong.

Edit: Another thing, if we break a cease-fire, will that cause GK not to speak to us for 10 turns?

You know what? I haven't used the cease fire option a single time since I bought civ4. If it kills WW, then that's another thing to add to the list of good lessons from this sucession game. Thanks guys, keep it up with the bright ideas. I have declared Cease fire, but I don't actually remember CHECKING to verify if the WW stopped...sorry. Just an assumption on my part...


Btw, to get tech we must have a peace treaty unless I am totally wrong. You are totally right.

Edit: Another thing, if we break a cease-fire, will that cause GK not to speak to us for 10 turns?Yes, for GK it is 10 turns, I just checked the xml.

Yes, for GK it is 10 turns, I just checked the xml.
No big deal - he is not a great conversationalist.

I am pretty certain that ceasefires stop WW (and decrease WW at the same rate as a peace treaty does - ie marginally faster than when you are at war)

If we can get HBR (or feudalism) then a 10 turn peace treaty is well worth

Of course. Peace treaty lasts for 10 turns minimum. Cease fire we can cancel any time we want.


:wow: I've played civ for one and a half years, and never used it. Either I'm desperate for peace, and pay the price (tech/gold), or I want a tech in return.

You know what? I haven't used the cease fire option a single time since I bought civ4.

:wow: I've played civ for one and a half years, and never used it. Either I'm desperate for peace, and pay the price (tech/gold), or I want a tech in return.

Perhaps the Swedish instruction manuals were missing that page......?

No big deal - he is not a great conversationalist.

No but it kills the option of peace for tech for 10 turns...

I am pretty certain that ceasefires stop WW (and decrease WW at the same rate as a peace treaty does - ie marginally faster than when you are at war)

If we can get HBR (or feudalism) then a 10 turn peace treaty is well worth

Ok, I will keep this in mind. But no peace until we have a GG general. Unless we want to use Gandhi for target practise. :hammer:

No but it kills the option of peace for tech for 10 turns...
ROFL. If you can re-DOW on GK and damage him sufficiently in 10 turns to make him want to give away another (non-meditation) tech, I will run bare-ass round my office. You are all talk.... It has taken us more turns than that (vs archers) to even persuade him to consider giving us Meditation

EDIT: But admittedly, that was LC and Erkon playing.....

Okay, I ran a test and WW evaporates the instant we get a cease fire agreement, at least in my one trial.

Man I love using Modern armour for these tests...

I will run bare-ass round my office.Joke: When does Big Pig NOT run bare-ass around his office?

When he walks...

ROFL. If you can re-DOW on GK and damage him sufficiently in 10 turns to make him want to give away another (non-meditation) tech, I will run bare-ass round my office. You are all talk.... It has taken us more turns than that (vs archers) to even persuade him to consider giving us Meditation

I am sorry guys, but there is no alternative now. Every city will be whipped down to size one. It is a long shot, but given some extra reinforcements we might achieve the necessary conditions to initiate a Big Pig Run. Just be sure to document it so I have something to scare the children with when they have been particularly naughty.


:D

Joke: When does Big Pig NOT run bare-ass around his office?

When he walks...

:rotfl:

Now, thats only on dress-down Fridays.......

I am sorry guys, but ...

ROTFLMAO!!!

@LC: In the spirit of Balbes's heroic effort translating the CFR-V tread in SGOTM-3, after this is over you are tasked with the job of translating this thread and its humour into Russian to show those guys how SGOTMs should really be played

@LC: In the spirit of Balbes's heroic effort translating the CFR-V tread in SGOTM-3, after this is over you are tasked with the job of translating this thread and its humour into Russian to show those guys how SGOTMs should really be playedOkay, but only if we survive Gnejs' turnset...Let's see, how to translate "Big Pig Run"?

So will we research Engineering next?

So will we research Engineering next?

Me vote yes

Ok, here is an updated plan based on your input and some thinking™ by myself.


1. Gandhi
Park Caravel on Clam first turn and see how trireme reacts. We have about 80% odds in an attack so I would prefer to defend or simply scare it away. One XP vs the loss of a caravel and the fishing boats - we have more to lose than to gain.
Complete trireme in Gold city, upgrade existing trireme to caravel (do we have the money?) and station it where it can observe Delhi (not sure I got this part right, haven't got the save in front of me now)

2. Continue western exploration with caravel
Going NW. There may not be a southern passage, and besides, our scout can move in that direction. Better to find out who is Gandhis closest neighbour. Or if there is unsettled land to Gandhis W.

3. Continue exploring with scouts
W/SW with Hannibal scout. Brennus scout locates capital asap.

4. MM with greater success than Erkon
Hook up spices, whip a WB in Cape Fish

5. Genghis war:
Attack archer with chariot, let GK improve horses but not iron, get 2 more spears for Keshik defense, etc etc.
I am tempted to move a stack including swords eastward to see if there are any soft targets there. Iron city would be nice to have, and a new settler just moved that way.
Construction in 4 turns, MW builds cats when discovered.

5. Murky Waters
Delay National Epic for now, build 1 or 2 spears instead. These can stay in MW for the happiness for now, allowing us to complete NE and assign the scientists. When we get spices in about 10 turns and the whipping unhappiness wears off they will be sent south.

6. New Sarai
Get barracks up by whipping or chopping, then units. It is excellently situated for building the army that captures Karakorum.

7. Commerce city
Whip that aqueduct and build something useful instead. ;)

8. Research
Finish Construction, then Engineering or shut down research?
Would be nice to trade for Feudalism. Vassalage looks very attractive right now. We would also get a discount once we research Civil Service.

So will we research Engineering next?
Trebs would certainly be nice. Bear in mind that cats don't upgrade to trebs - so depending on how many extra turns engineering is, it may be wise to concentrate on swords rather than cats, then build a bunch of trebs once we have engineering

EDIT: Tho' I'm guessing it will take us ~20 turns for engineering, which is a bit too long to wait

Ok, here is an updated plan based on your input and some thinking™ by myself.

....
3. Continue exploring with scouts
W/SW with Hannibal scout. Brennus scout locates capital and strategic resourcesasap.

4. MM with greater success than Erkon Well, you are guaranteed to meet at least one of your objectives then.... ;)
Hook up spices, whip a WB in Cape Fish. A sugar plantation in MC should be a priority to promote growth there too
5. Genghis war:
Attack archer with chariot, let GK improve horses but not iron, get 2 more spears for Keshik defense, etc etc.
I am tempted to move a stack including swords eastward to see if there are any soft targets there. Iron city would be nice to have, and a new settler just moved that way.
Construction in 4 turns, MW builds cats when discovered.

5. Murky Waters
Delay National Epic for now, build 1 or 2 spears instead. These can stay in MW for the happiness for now, allowing us to complete NE and assign the scientists. When we get spices in about 10 turns and the whipping unhappiness wears off they will be sent south.

6. New Sarai
Get barracks up by whipping or chopping, then units. It is excellently situated for building the army that captures Karakorum.

7. Commerce city
Whip that aqueduct and build something useful instead. ;) Might be better just to put up with the unhealthiness until we get fish, sheep etc and chop some more of the surrounding jungle. Whipping out an aqueduct reduces CC's ability to work and grow the cottages. Also, the next build will be slow there too - so no rush to get the aqueduct

8. Research
Finish Construction, then Engineering or shut down research?
Would be nice to trade for Feudalism. Vassalage looks very attractive right now. We would also get a discount once we research Civil Service.

Go kick some Mongolian ass!

7. Commerce city
Whip that aqueduct and build something useful instead. Might be better just to put up with the unhealthiness until we get fish, sheep etc and chop some more of the surrounding jungle. Whipping out an aqueduct reduces CC's ability to work and grow the cottages. Also, the next build will be slow there too - so no rush to get the aqueduct

Actually, for us I don't see the need for an aqueduct there, period, as the fish+sheep-jungle should be enough for now. Gandhi might have use of it when the city eventually grows much above current size, but it seems wasteful for us to be building it now.
I would rather have invested those hammers into barracks or units. Maybe I will change it into a cheap unit for use as a military police.

Trebs would certainly be nice. Bear in mind that cats don't upgrade to trebs - so depending on how many extra turns engineering is, it may be wise to concentrate on swords rather than cats, then build a bunch of trebs once we have engineering

EDIT: Tho' I'm guessing it will take us ~20 turns for engineering, which is a bit too long to waitEngineering's showing 36t at the 50%, long-term research we can muster right now. I'm thinking 0% research for the time being. This war is expensive.
Originally Posted by Gnejs
Ok, here is an updated plan based on your input and some thinking™ by myself. ™ = ThoughtMart? :lol:

....
3. Continue exploring with scouts
W/SW with Hannibal scout. Brennus scout locates capital and strategic resources asap.

4. MM with greater success than Erkon Well, you are guaranteed to meet at least one of your objectives then.... I'm skeptical. Will you switch the CC citizen to the GOld mine or will you get into a whip-happy frenzy?
Hook up spices, Road first, if your goal is the +:), tho' I covet another cottage in CC and NO WHIPPING in CC! whip a WB in Cape Fish. A sugar plantation in MC should be a priority to promote growth there too BINGO! What about MC, you drooling warmongerer?

4a. MC - Put TP overflow into Barracks>units, grow pop, make two mines and plantation. You might prioritize this over NS: Get another wkr here and get this city cracking, it has much more short-term military potential than NS, IMHO.

5. Genghis war:
Attack archer with chariot, let GK improve horses but not iron, get 2 more spears for Keshik defense, etc etc.
I am tempted to move a stack including swords eastward to see if there are any soft targets there. Iron city would be nice to have, For me, Iron City should be razed if you get it now--too expensive. Beshbalik and Turfan are keepers, Turfan and Tabriz have Judaism. and a new settler just moved that way. Raze. RAZE. RAZE THEM ALL!!!
Construction in 4 turns, MW builds cats when discovered. XP!

5. Murky Waters
Delay National Epic for now, build 1 or 2 spears instead. These can stay in MW for the happiness for now, allowing us to complete NE and assign the scientists. When we get spices in about 10 turns and the whipping unhappiness wears off they will be sent south.

6. New Sarai
Get barracks up by whipping or chopping, then units. It is excellently situated for building the army that captures Karakorum. Hmm...whip freak...robbing Peter to pay Paul? NS takes forever to grow with no granary and little food. You either build a granary and whip or you don't whip. Better to let it grow, work the horses asap, build a couple mines. Leave the slaves in peace--they'll learn to love us. NS ain't happening any faster than that, Commander Sir.

7. Commerce city
Whip that aqueduct and build something useful instead. Like what? Barracks? There are no spare citizens to whip. Work the gold, build another cottage. Our finances are already dwindling rapidly. If you want more units, build Brown City. :p Might be better just to put up with the unhealthiness until we get fish, sheep etc and chop some more of the surrounding jungle. Whipping out an aqueduct reduces CC's ability to work and grow the cottages. Also, the next build will be slow there too - so no rush to get the aqueduct

8. Research
Finish Construction, then Engineering or shut down research?
Would be nice to trade for Feudalism. Vassalage looks very attractive right now. We would also get a discount once we research Civil Service.Engineering is an eternity away with this war. Not sure it's worth it. If you think you, JERFit, and Big Talk can conquer Karakorum with cats/swords, maybe it's better to just go 0% research and wait to see what the two other AIs bring to the table.

And don't forget, Erkon is right about one thing: Kill'emall!
7. Commerce city...
Whip that aqueduct and build something useful instead.

Actually, for us I don't see the need for an aqueduct there, period, as the fish+sheep-jungle should be enough for now. Gandhi might have use of it when the city eventually grows much above current size, but it seems wasteful for us to be building it now.
I would rather have invested those hammers into barracks or units. Maybe I will change it into a cheap unit for use as a military police.I don't see any build in CC as relevant to anything right now--just not enough hammers. CC is a commerce center. We want as much population there as possible. Aqueduct is the only build that furthers that in any way. Preferably we'll never have to poprush here. Preferably we would have so much population that we'd need sheep, fish, aqueduct, grocer, supermarket, hospital here and the MPs. We have to think both short-term and long-term. I think MW, GC, MC, NS, OS will provide us the units we need. CC is our Golden Chalice--it never tastes of war.

And don't forget, Erkon is right about one thing: Kill'emall!

Mr Boss, you are so clever. I envy your brilliance! :bowdown:

Two things, surely?

Old Sarai and hammers

Old Sarai is rather hammer poor especailly the inner cross. Is it possible to build watermills without chopping the forest? If not, Old Sarai strikes me more as a commerce center than a prod center. It already has a granary, thankfully, so maybe we should whip a library there, for border expansion, then chop the barracks. The outer-cross forest chops will be much more productive after the borders expand.

Originally Posted by LowtherCastle
And don't forget, Erkon is right about one thing: 1) Kill'emall!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erkon
2) Mr Boss, you are so clever. 3) I envy your brilliance!

Two things, surely?Which two?

:lol:

Which two?

:lol:
Well, I'm not so sure we really need to kill all of them......

Engineering's showing 36t at the 50%, long-term research we can muster right now. I'm thinking 0% research for the time being. This war is expensive.
[INDENT]Engineering is an eternity away with this war. Not sure it's worth it. If you think you, JERFit, and Big Talk can conquer Karakorum with cats/swords, maybe it's better to just go 0% research and wait to see what the two other AIs bring to the table.

Assuming we complete NE in 4 turns, and that we pop 3 scientists in a row, and we stay at 0% research, in how many turns do we pop Astronomy and in how many turns do we get our third scientist (which may be used to pop engineering)?

I don't see any build in CC as relevant to anything right now--just not enough hammers. CC is a commerce center. We want as much population there as possible. Aqueduct is the only build that furthers that in any way. Preferably we'll never have to poprush here. Preferably we would have so much population that we'd need sheep, fish, aqueduct, grocer, supermarket, hospital here and the MPs. We have to think both short-term and long-term. I think MW, GC, MC, NS, OS will provide us the units we need. CC is our Golden Chalice--it never tastes of war.

Right now we are health limited but soon it will be happiness that limits us instead. Investing 37 hammers in a unit will cost us 1 gpt in upkeep but allow us to work an additional cottage for a minimum 2 gpt. Or the 4h hills mine for better production.
Compare this to putting 150 hammers into an aqueduct that currently would give us 1 food/turn, and has to grow 2 pop after fish/sheep to remain of this limited use...

Right now we are health limited but soon it will be happiness that limits us instead. Investing 37 hammers in a unit will cost us 1 gpt in upkeep but allow us to work an additional cottage for a minimum 2 gpt. Or the 4h hills mine for better production.
Compare this to putting 150 hammers into an aqueduct that currently would give us 1 food/turn, and has to grow 2 pop after fish/sheep to remain of this limited use...Not to agree or disagree with you--Here are the current numbers:

gold/t = 93 (36g/t from CC, working gold mine)
cost/t = 46
OS(4t) = ~4

The chariot in CC will take 8 turns.

We have ~43g/t (+treasury, +monies captured, +new income from cities) to work with to build our remaining army/navy, hold onto cities we capture, etc.

Food for thought.

I suppose the most useful logic for CC is: Grow its pop to its limit, keep raising that limit, keep making cottages corresponding to the limit. If we need MP most urgently to raise the limit, that's what we want. (It's just a bit of a shame to build anything there we could import...) Later on, we'll have a couple more mines developed that we can work on a short-term basis. Currently we have +4f--room for growth, but slow growth. Aqueduct is not urgent and surely not worth poprushing for. No builds there are worth poprushing for. (In fact, it doesn't hurt for us to have a city or two that can poprush if we have a TRUE EMERGENCY, like Gandhi landing a SOD...)

Anyone notice that Mr. Know-It-All Erkon opened his big trap and got a major slapdown by ainwood:The Big Slapdown.:lol: :lol: :lol:

Just kidding, ol' Erkon, I'm actually quite thankful for the response you artfully elicited--I'm always wondering if there's some GloryLand around the corner from the starting spot in those GOTMs.

Not too many are clever enough to provoke such peeks inside the workings of the GOTM. :goodjob:

The chariot in CC will take 8 turns.
archer?

But either way, I agree that it would be better to import a unit

Not to agree or disagree with you--Here are the current numbers:

gold/t = 93 (36g/t from CC, working gold mine)
cost/t = 46
OS(4t) = ~4

The chariot in CC will take 8 turns.

We have ~43g/t (+treasury, +monies captured, +new income from cities) to work with to build our remaining army/navy, hold onto cities we capture, etc.

Food for thought.

I suppose the most useful logic for CC is: Grow its pop to its limit, keep raising that limit, keep making cottages corresponding to the limit. If we need MP most urgently to raise the limit, that's what we want. (It's just a bit of a shame to build anything there we could import...) Later on, we'll have a couple more mines developed that we can work on a short-term basis. Currently we have +4f--room for growth, but slow growth. Aqueduct is not urgent and surely not worth poprushing for. No builds there are worth poprushing for. (In fact, it doesn't hurt for us to have a city or two that can poprush if we have a TRUE EMERGENCY, like Gandhi landing a SOD...)


The whipping part was half-provocative, half-serious. I agree on that CC is mainly about commerce, but remember that hammers are hammers. We need to use all our hammers effectively. I wouldn't hesitate to work mines or even whip units there if it can shorten the war against GK.

Btw, the chariot/archer in CC can be whipped, putting the overflow into the completion of the aqueduct. Or vice versa. Or we could whip barracks to get the 100% bonus.

On the money side, as soon as we have cats we should be able to partly fund research towards engineering and civil service from conquests.

Assuming we complete NE in 4 turns, and that we pop 3 scientists in a row, and we stay at 0% research, in how many turns do we pop Astronomy and in how many turns do we get our third scientist (which may be used to pop engineering)?

If we work the pigs and get Caste System (so no more whips for Mr Whip-Freak), we can run 6 extra scientists in MW. This equates to a total of 27x2 = 54GPP per turn. The next 3 GPs will cost 450+600+750 = 1800 GPP. Not sure how many GPPs we will have in MW in 4 turns time, but we will pop our 3rd GS in roughly 32 turns time after building the NE (so, basically, as quickly as we would be able to tech engineering....)

Or we could whip barracks to get the 100% bonus.
In general it'd be good to put overflow into barracks yes, whipping, no. YOu don't get your full whip overflow after you whip discounted builds.

If a whipped unit in barracks-less CC makes a difference in this war, Commander, then I think our swords aren't eating enough spinach, Sir.

Assuming we complete NE in 4 turns, and that we pop 3 scientists in a row, and we stay at 0% research, in how many turns do we pop Astronomy and in how many turns do we get our third scientist (which may be used to pop engineering)?
Let me guess, so we can build The Castle of Gnejs? :lol:
If we work the pigs and get Caste System (so no more whips for Mr Whip-Freak), we can run 6 extra scientists in MW. This equates to a total of 27x2 = 54GPP per turn. The next 3 GPs will cost 450+600+750 = 1800 GPP. Not sure how many GPPs we will have in MW in 4 turns time, but we will pop our 3rd GS in roughly 32 turns time after building the NE (so, basically, as quickly as we would be able to tech engineering....)In other words, somewhere about the time BP will be putting the finishing touches on GK and we won't be thinking about trebuchets anymore, but rather trading for CS for our Berserkers and Education(bulb)>Liberalism. :cool:

By the way, geniuses, since you're so in love with the idea of GK building Keshiks instead of LBs, why don't we send a couple wkrs down there to build the pasture and road... ;)

Seriously, guys, the more I think about it, if GK is going to be leaving only three lbs in Karak, then we need to have a master plan to take it out with X swords and Y cats in 15-20 turns. Piddling around with the rest is fine as long as it doesn't slow down our taking Karak, followed immediately by Beshbalik, if that hasn't already fallen. Those two cities are worth their weight in gold and will surely break GK's back.

EDIT: I think we want to be able to take out his city defenses and take the city in 1 turn so he can't endlessly poprush new lbs with all that population. That pop will also be useful for us to poprush buildings.

Got Serious?

Okay, landlubbers, wannabe warmongers, dream-catchers: How about a plan!

Concurrent actions:

Gnejs gets the 8XP for GG (may slow down plan by 5-106 turns)
Road to Karak gets built to save 1 turn transporting units
MC builds galley (including TP overflow) saves 1 more turn for MW cats (optional--could be barracks>units)
OS chops/poprushes library>chops barracks>chops 2 swords, 2 bombard-promoted cats
MW builds 3 accuracy-promoted cats (after GG)
GC builds good stuff too
NS builds granary for long-term or maybe barracks with Gnejs painted on it.
CC builds a Golden Chariot just for Gnejs

This plan requires immediate assignment of 4+ wkrs to OS. (1 roads, 3 chop) Fkitall.

This builds a 2-turn Karakattack army in about 15 turns, ready for sudden ambush 6-7t later.

Note: Less road is needed from SW corner of OS, but this leaves army attacking from across river. An atlernative has this road only for the last cat's approach, which saves some worker-turns.

EDIT: I calculated that we need 6 accuracy-promoted cats to destroy city walls in 1 turn (or 5 plus 1 non-promoted), 3 for 2 turns. (25% -25% from walls = 18.75%)

Got Serious?

Okay, landlubbers, wannabe warmongers, dream-catchers: How about a plan!

Concurrent actions:

Gnejs gets the 8XP for GG (may slow down plan by 5-106 turns)
Road to Karak gets built to save 1 turn transporting units
MC builds galley (including TP overflow) saves 1 more turn for MW cats (optional--could be barracks>units)
OS chops/poprushes library>chops barracks>chops 2 swords, 2 bombard-promoted cats
MW builds 3 accuracy-promoted cats (after GG)
GC builds good stuff too
NS builds granary for long-term or maybe barracks with Gnejs painted on it.
CC builds a Golden Chariot just for Gnejs

This plan requires immediate assignment of 4+ wkrs to OS. (1 roads, 3 chop) Fkitall.

This builds a 2-turn Karakattack army in about 15 turns, ready for sudden ambush 6-7t later.

Note: Less road is needed from SW corner of OS, but this leaves army attacking from across river. An atlernative has this road only for the last cat's approach, which saves some worker-turns.

EDIT: I calculated that we need 6 accuracy-promoted cats to destroy city walls in 1 turn (or 5 plus 1 non-promoted), 3 for 2 turns. (25% -25% from walls = 18.75%)

Now you are starting to sound like a true warmonger. Wtg LC!! :goodjob:

Now you are starting to sound like a true warmonger. Wtg LC!! :goodjob:Serious closet case. You should've seen my sick grin while steamrolling Gandhi's warriors with my Worldbuilt Modern Armour...

If we decide to go for something like this, I think it would be better for you to do at least most of it in one turnset (wouldn't have to be one sitting), just to make sure there are no loose strings (the chops shouldn't finish before OS comes out of Rebellion and before the borders expand, etc.). And we probably want to steer clear of Karak until the ambush so he doesn't pile up defenders there again (hopefully).

EDIT: And I think it might be safer to do the barracks>units in MC to make sure we have enough firepower.

EDIT2: Built and arriving even sooner would be 2 accuracy-promoted cats and 2 regular cats for the 2-turn walls destruction. We could build one in MC...

In general it'd be good to put overflow into barracks yes, whipping, no. YOu don't get your full whip overflow after you whip discounted builds.

Ok.

If a whipped unit in barracks-less CC makes a difference in this war, Commander, then I think our swords aren't eating enough spinach, Sir.

This attitude is why you will always end up behind someone else in GOTM competitions. ;)

Seriously, GK is not a walkover. An extra sword can definitely save the day and protect us against some unlucky RNG roll. If we anyway have enough units to capture Karakorum, fine, just send it to the next city instead. Speeds up the conquest.

Are you two going to stop yacking and play some turns?

This attitude is why you will always end up behind someone else in GOTM competitions. ;) I duly accept that challenge.

Seriously, GK is not a walkover. An extra sword can definitely save the day and protect us against some unlucky RNG roll. If we anyway have enough units to capture Karakorum, fine, just send it to the next city instead. Speeds up the conquest.Then make more in MW, GC, MC, OS.
Are you two going to stop yacking and play some turns? He has to put his kids to bed first, which puts it after your bedtime...Big Yak

Are you two going to stop yacking and play some turns?

You still have about an hour to oink away. I try never to play civ while there are other members of the household awake. It is not a strict rule, but when they are around I have trouble beating settler level. Should I risk it? Your call, Big Boss. :)

Don't worry - I will be playing in a few turnsets so can clean up any messes. But, I guess I can wait another hour......

Hey, Big Yak, here's something you and jpc could try:
http://www.tibetanyaks.com/images/1b1.jpg
Yak skiing
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yak skiing is a sport reportedly practiced in the Indian hill resort of Manali as a tourist attraction.

According to Time Magazine, it involves a skier (jpc) waiting at the bottom of a slope and a yak (Big Yak) at the top of the hill; yak and skier are connected by means of a rope going around a pulley at the top of the hill. To engage the yak, the skier must shake (and swiftly put down) a bucket of nuts. This attracts the yak, which charges downhill and pulls the skier upward by means of the rope.

Cherchez les nuts, Big Yak.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yak_skiing

The yak's latin name is Bos grunniens, from Bos meaning Ox, and Grunnio I grunt, hence grunniens, grunting - yaks are physically unable to low or moo like other cattle.This explains a lot of BY's...communication.

Domestic uses
The local Tibetan people utilise yaks in much the same way that cows are used in the western world. This includes roles such as:

Beasts of burden
A source of nourishing milk, which is pink

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A132229

Yak skiing...

LOL! Something new to be learned every day here :)

About to start. Wish me luck. :)

Good luck!

And we meet...

drumroll...

150501


Mehmed. Last in score, Buddhist, only has Meditation on us. Is there any point in giftting him a tech? And no, he won't go to war for us.

Edit: He has a trireme near Brennus capital, so obviously on the same piece of land. A future target, by the looks of it.

Big Boss said wait on tech gifting till we meet the last. No hurry, I don't think, because we can do it later and still get the bonus, in my experience.

Considering he has target written all over him we probably should keep him as primitive as possible. :)

And the final civ is....

150503

Washington!

Not totally backwards like some of the others. Founder of Taoism so he has at least 5 techs that we do not have. He is not in a great mood so I believe a gift is in order. Literature perhaps?

And the final civ is....

150503

Washington!

Not totally backwards like some of the others. Founder of Taoism so he has at least 5 techs that we do not have. He is not in a great mood so I believe a gift is in order. Literature perhaps?

or MonoT? Who is his worst enemy? - presumably Isa or Hannibal. And presumably g