I played basically to the end of 1250 AD but did not hit <enter>.

Gnejs' Turn Zero

Economics is done, next tech?
MW now contains a GM and a GS!!! Where to put the GS? Where to cash in on the GM?


Notes

Forbidden Palace in 3 turns!!!
We have a cease fire with Isabella and we need to keep an eye on Murcia to make sure Mehmed doesn't attack it.
Hinduism has spread to MW, Karak, Besh, and Madrid. Two more Hindu Misses are in production, the next should go to Brown City according to Big Brown Pig.
Judaism has spread to MW, but upon reflection, I don't see any need to spread it at all, because G has no Shrine and when he goes FR, he won't be able to see into our cities anymore anyway, right?
Four cities are currently building universities and Vienne should start one soon. The sixth will be built in Madrid. No urgency to poprush these buildings before Madrid is ready. (I assume the University of Sankore doesn't count?)

Happy Building, Gnejs!!!

I played basically to the end of 1250 AD but did not hit <enter>.

Gnejs' Turn Zero

Economics is done, next tech? We should look at the options and try to pick one that we should have a monopoly on for maximum trading benefit EDIT: Nationalism>Constitution might be a good direction
MW now contains a GM and a GS!!! Where to put the GS? Probably best in Madrid (our Oxford city) rather than in any of the Old World cities if our plan is to try to drive the tech rate.Where to cash in on the GM? There is a way to assess which city has the greatest trade route benefit - can anyone throw any light on this. Carthage is probably a good bet


Notes

Forbidden Palace in 3 turns!!!
We have a cease fire with Isabella and we need to keep an eye on Murcia to make sure Mehmed doesn't attack it.
Hinduism has spread to MW, Karak, Besh, and Madrid. Two more Hindu Misses are in production, the next should go to Brown City according to Big Brown Pig. Don't forget to spread it in our New World cities such as Madrid too
Judaism has spread to MW, but upon reflection, I don't see any need to spread it at all, because G has no Shrine and when he goes FR, he won't be able to see into our cities anymore anyway, right? Might be good to spread it to at least 1 New World city. Then, if G ever does build the shrine, we can disseminate it more easily
Four cities are currently building universities and Vienne should start one soon. The sixth will be built in Madrid. No urgency to poprush these buildings before Madrid is ready. (I assume the University of Sankore doesn't count?)

Happy Building, Gnejs!!!

We still need to agree on a strategy of what to do with Isa and Brennus. Even if we agree to keep them alive in order to feed them choice techs for trading, I think we want to eliminate Brennus' current capital in order to be able to benefit from settling Vienne East

Guys, I hate to deeply disappoint you, but I'm going to Greece for six days on a jpc skiing trip. ;)

Here are my thoughts for our current direction and micromanagement.

Hindu Misses
I think we should keep spamming Hindu Misses (in CC, the Far Western Brennus city and hopefully BC, whenever possible). They greatly increase our production--like really cheap forges. Good targets would be BC, OS, GC, Turfan, MC, NS, and all the Isa cities. Don't forget to start a new Missionary build when you use one up (just interrupt the other builds in CC...etc.) I waited 1 turn in Madrid to poprush the granary and because the Hindu Miss worked, we scored an extra 22 :hammers:!

Poprushing
I think we should follow the Obormot Plan: We only poprush excess population--not population that's working special resources or useful tiles like high-production mines. A good example is the Brennus city Verlanium. It has no food resources, so we really don't want to poprush there until we can work the mine and all five farms, and then poprush when we have couple extra citizens (or about to grow to the 2nd). Turfan is another good example: it should be be growing to size 7 to poprush for 2 pops or to size 8 for 3 pops.

Micromanagement Planning

In Madrid, when the borders expand, I think we should turn the windmills into mines. We have plenty of new wkrs to do this.
Karak doesn't need any farms--turn everything into cottages (except resource tiles, of course).
BC should work all the mines and add farms for growth. No point in poprushing here at all.

Warring
Contrary to Erkon's predilection for DOWing Hannibal and Mehmed, I think we want to create world peace now. Hannibal won't trade peace with Washington for Economics and I couldn't can't try asking him to give to us now (he's suddenly pleased with us) EDIT: but Gnejs can try on Turn Zero, of course.

In fact, I recommend we researech Liberalism next and hope G's able to trade it for something. If not, we should quickly gift to everyone and hope for FR revolts. That will expedite world peace.

In the war between H and W, they have been pillaging each other's tiles. Not what we want.

Probably best in Madrid (our Oxford city) rather than in any of the Old World cities if our plan is to try to drive the tech rate.

Hinduism has spread to MW, Karak, Besh, and Madrid. Two more Hindu Misses are in production, the next should go to Brown City according to Big Brown Pig. Don't forget to spread it in our New World cities such as Madrid too ;)

We still need to agree on a strategy of what to do with Isa and Brennus. Even if we agree to keep them alive in order to feed them choice techs for trading, I think we want to eliminate Brennus' current capital in order to be able to benefit from settling Vienne EastThat reminds me: Atlanta has fallen to Hannibal, but he retreated (temporarily?) to handle a Washington counterattack.

I didn't settle Vienne East yet, because of the massive maintenance it will bring before the FP is completed.

My only concern with capturing Brennus' current capital is the massive WW we will re-trigger for the ensuing 10 turns. If we wait some time and let Vienne East develop (it still has rice to the S and some nice river tiles), the potential WW will have dissipated significantly, so that later on, when it's necessary to expand the VE borders, we can do it at less cost.

EDIT: Oh yeah, on the GS, Madrid already has an Academy :banana:. I recommend Karak over Bibracte for two reasons: 1) Karak is an economic powerhouse in its own right and 2) we'd still rather G get it if at all possible.

I want us to attack Delhi with LBM.

I thought the discount was depending on the number of alive AI, but after reading the post, I think we should let Isa live. But I think we should raze Brennus capital, because we cannot out-culture his palace.

One last detail: I traded maps to Mehmed and Hannibal because it occurred to me that G's galleon might be for delivering a settler to some far-away land...and I was in hopes that G would find out there aren't any.

Didn't sell Washington maps for his 140:commerce: in case he needed it for upgrades...

I want us to attack Delhi with LBM. Which reminds me: there is an explorer in the galleon just S of G that should be kamikazied at G...

I thought the discount was depending on the number of alive AI, but after reading the post, I think we should let Isa live. But I think we should raze Brennus capital, because we cannot out-culture his palace.Why raze it? Why not keep it? The silver will be useful for happiness, no?

Guys, I hate to deeply disappoint you, but I'm going to Greece for six days on a jpc skiing trip. ;)



Yippieeee! :woohoo: [party] :band: :high5:


...err, LC, you still here? Err, just happy that it is finally my turn... ;)

Which reminds me: "Got it!"

Yippieeee! :woohoo: [party] :band: :high5:


...err, LC, you still here? Err, just happy that it is finally my turn... ;)

Which reminds me: "Got it!"Altho' you may fuind it dull to micromanage please try to think through all your decisions and try to check each city on a regular basis to optimize builds, growth, specialists etc and each AI to optimize diplomacy (your 10 turns will feel longer that way.....:) )May your turnset be a looooooong one... :lol: waster

Here are my thoughts for our current direction and micromanagement.

Hindu Misses
I think we should keep spamming Hindu Misses (in CC, the Far Western Brennus city and hopefully BC, whenever possible). They greatly increase our production--like really cheap forges. Good targets would be BC, OS, GC, Turfan, MC, NS, and all the Isa cities. Don't forget to start a new Missionary build when you use one up (just interrupt the other builds in CC...etc.) I waited 1 turn in Madrid to poprush the granary and because the Hindu Miss worked, we scored an extra 22 :hammers:!

Poprushing
I think we should follow the Obormot Plan: We only poprush excess population--not population that's working special resources or useful tiles like high-production mines. A good example is the Brennus city Verlanium. It has no food resources, so we really don't want to poprush there until we can work the mine and all five farms, and then poprush when we have couple extra citizens (or about to grow to the 2nd). Turfan is another good example: it should be be growing to size 7 to poprush for 2 pops or to size 8 for 3 pops.

Micromanagement Planning

In Madrid, when the borders expand, I think we should turn the windmills into mines. We have plenty of new wkrs to do this.
Karak doesn't need any farms--turn everything into cottages (except resource tiles, of course).
BC should work all the mines and add farms for growth. No point in poprushing here at all.

Warring
Contrary to Erkon's predilection for DOWing Hannibal and Mehmed, I think we want to create world peace now. Hannibal won't trade peace with Washington for Economics and I couldn't can't try asking him to give to us now (he's suddenly pleased with us) EDIT: but Gnejs can try on Turn Zero, of course.

In fact, I recommend we researech Liberalism next and hope G's able to trade it for something. If not, we should quickly gift to everyone and hope for FR revolts. That will expedite world peace.

In the war between H and W, they have been pillaging each other's tiles. Not what we want.

Missionary spamming is good, helps both our economy and our production.

We now have economics, how about a switch to free market once we complete UoS and FP? It costs us three turns of anarchy, but in the long run I guess it is worth it.

Toledo looks pretty worthless. We could gift it to Washington (safe haven if Hannibal is too successful), or to either Isabella or Brennus so we can remove their cities further north.

We could bulb most of printing press with our scientist. We are working around 50 villages and towns right now so that is +50 commerce (x bonuses). Combine this with free market and forgotten palace and we should be back in business again.

Long term, if free religion is not a hit with any of the other civs, we could aim for UN and force them to adopt it.

Toledo looks pretty worthless. We could gift it to Washington (safe haven if Hannibal is too successful), or to either Isabella or Brennus so we can remove their cities further north. Toledo has granary and trading post, so it should pay for itself, but we could keep in our pocket as a survival kit for any AI on its deathbed.

We now have economics, how about a switch to free market once we complete UoS and FP? It costs us three turns of anarchy, but in the long run I guess it is worth it. We might get about +45:commerce:/t and a third of that is in Bibracte until Artemis expires. Problem is, we only have trade routes with Mehmed. Washington and H are running Merc. Closed borders with G, Isa, Brennus.

We could bulb most of printing press with our scientist. We are working around 50 villages and towns right now so that is +50 commerce (x bonuses). Combine this with free market and forgotten palace and we should be back in business again.Lightbulbing
Might be a good way for us because we can't run a high research % with so many cities. Right now, an Academy in Karak nets us about 9:science:/t at 30% research, 15/t at 50%, in any case about 4% of our current research total.

The ~3100:science: lightbulb is something like 1-1.5% of all the research we still need to do, so in theory, it would seem that 4% is better than 1.5%. Furthermore, we want to ask are we bulbing a tech others would otherwise research for us? Or: Will Printing Press now give us some sort of significant strategic advantage?

Civics I go on vacation and the peasants immediately want to revolt...
Revolts are very expensive now. 1 or 2 civics = 3 turns. 3 civics = 4 turns. We need to think long-term, what civics do we want to have?

Slavery and Org Rel are very useful to us now.
We could switch to Bureaucracy and Free Market now or wait for Liberalism and switch to Free Speech and Free Market.
We should plan on being forced to switch to Emancipation in about 30-50t and plan on making any other switches we want at that time (Representation/UnivSuff? FR/Pacifism?).


United Nations
Actually has a number of useful resolutions, in particular, Open Markets (trade routes with everyone) and Single Currency (+1 trade route).

Does anyone know if enacting a civic resolution causes an immediate 4-5t (Modern Age) revolt? If so, that sucks big time.

Trading Economics

Food for thought

We can trade Washington Economics for Divine Right, making Nationalism cheaper.
Hannibal's favorite civic is Free Market.
If Washington suddenly has Economics, Hannibal might offer Wash peace in return for Economics.
Hannibal then switches from Merc to Free Market
We suddenly have several more international trade routes
Gnejs suddenly looks like a genius for once for wanting to switch to Free Market.
We research Liberalism so G's willing to trade it to others for Economics. Voila!

Toledo has very few workable tiles as some overlap with the next city some are under turkish culture. I don't see how it will be contributing anything. On the other hand, we can spread judaism there (does it have religion already?), gift it to, say, brennus, raze his northern cities, and demand peace in exchange for him converting to judaism. Voila, we have set up a "new" GK-like trading partner for Gandhi, while at the same time solving the city placement dilemma with Vienne E.
Similarily, we could settle a city on the home continent for Isabella. Perhaps landlocked with no open borders with us... :D

Lightbulbing
Might be a good way for us because we can't run a high research % with so many cities. Right now, an Academy in Karak nets us about 9:science:/t at 30% research, 15/t at 50%, in any case about 4% of our current research total.

The ~3100:science: lightbulb is something like 1-1.5% of all the research we still need to do, so in theory, it would seem that 4% is better than 1.5%. Furthermore, we want to ask are we bulbing a tech others would otherwise research for us? Or: Will Printing Press now give us some sort of significant strategic advantage?


Lightbulbing gives the whole benefit now, both for us and for the AIs that we can immediately trade the tech with. Even if an academy gives double the amount of beakers some of those beakers will come when the AIs have entered "space race mode" and we won't be able to trade them efficiently.


Civics I go on vacation and the peasants immediately want to revolt...
Revolts are very expensive now. 1 or 2 civics = 3 turns. 3 civics = 4 turns. We need to think long-term, what civics do we want to have?

Slavery and Org Rel are very useful to us now.
We could switch to Bureaucracy and Free Market now or wait for Liberalism and switch to Free Speech and Free Market.
We should plan on being forced to switch to Emancipation in about 30-50t and plan on making any other switches we want at that time (Representation/UnivSuff? FR/Pacifism?).


United Nations
Actually has a number of useful resolutions, in particular, Open Markets (trade routes with everyone) and Single Currency (+1 trade route).

Does anyone know if enacting a civic resolution causes an immediate 4-5t (Modern Age) revolt? If so, that sucks big time.

No revolts from UN-imposed civic changes. Don't forget the Free Religion resolution... :)

I think a UN-beeline is a good strategy. We need the following techs:
Printing Press->SciMet->Physics->Electricity->Radio->MM

Also speaks for bulbing PP now.

Trading Economics

Food for thought

We can trade Washington Economics for Divine Right, making Nationalism cheaper.
Hannibal's favorite civic is Free Market.
If Washington suddenly has Economics, Hannibal might offer Wash peace in return for Economics.
Hannibal then switches from Merc to Free Market
We suddenly have several more international trade routes
Gnejs suddenly looks like a genius for once for wanting to switch to Free Market.
We research Liberalism so G's willing to trade it to others for Economics. Voila!



Sounds good all of it, except maybe PP before Lib. Again, since we are the biggest civ I believe we are the ones that gain the least from Free Market, but we should keep in mind that what is good for the other AIs helps us "win" this game.

We will also be able to open or close our borders to certain civs to influence their research rate...

Lightbulbing gives the whole benefit now, both for us and for the AIs that we can immediately trade the tech with. Even if an academy gives double the amount of beakers some of those beakers will come when the AIs have entered "space race mode" and we won't be able to trade them efficiently. Good point. The Academy is most effective after the Space Race has officially begun. No doubt we'll pop another GS or two...

Toledo has very few workable tiles as some overlap with the next city some are under turkish culture. I'm agreeing with you, in that we can give it away, but not until it is a strategic giveaway, as you propose with Brennus, rather than just a giveaway to get rid of a useless city. Voila, we have set up a "new" GK-like trading partner for Gandhi, while at the same time solving the city placement dilemma with Vienne E. Right.
Similarily, we could settle a city on the home continent for Isabella. Perhaps landlocked with no open borders with us... :D Yes.

No revolts from UN-imposed civic changes. Don't forget the Free Religion resolution... :) Supercool. Of course, the FR resolution also stops us from getting the Org Rel 25% prod bonus...

I think a UN-beeline is a good strategy. We need the following techs:
Printing Press->SciMet->Physics->Electricity->Radio->MM Sounds good, but I think we'd be smart to squeeze in Liberalism right after PP. The sooner we can lessen the warmongering angst of Hannibal and Mehmed, the better.

Also speaks for bulbing PP now.

Sounds good all of it, except maybe PP before Lib. Right, I was thinking in addition to your PP idea, if we go that way, because it's only about 2 turns or so anyway, right? Again, since we are the biggest civ I believe we are the ones that gain the least from Free Market, but we should keep in mind that what is good for the other AIs helps us "win" this game. Absolutely. World-peacemonger, world-commercemonger, etc. All works together to our goal.

We will also be able to open or close our borders to certain civs to influence their research rate...

Sounds good to me. Whatever we do, I think we need to decide on a clear research strategy and follow it. We don't want to bob around on the research chart like an inebriated cork on the ocean. Electricity is on our path to Industrialism, Radio on our path to Robotics, so that's all good. Sounds like maybe a winner to me.

We need to bear in mind that we want to cultivate good relations if we expect to get elected as the UN General. G might vote for our resolutions, but he obviously won't vote for us.

BTW, Gnejs, congratulations on your fastest Conquest award! :goodjob:

Odd how silent Erkon has been recently...

BTW, Gnejs, congratulations on your fastest Conquest award! :goodjob:

Odd how silent Erkon has been recently...

Thanks. :D


Edit: Don't worry about Erkon, he will soon be his usual obnoxious self. The b*d beat me by one turn in WOTM8. :aargh:

...
We need to bear in mind that we want to cultivate good relations if we expect to get elected as the UN General. G might vote for our resolutions, but he obviously won't vote for us.

It doesn't really matter who the GS is, as long as he put up votes for the civics we want :)

I've been silent since I don't have much more to contribute. UN is fine, although I doubt we need it to force civics. Anything that helps Gandhi is fine with me. How about an amphibious assault against Delhi with LBM? :D :D :D

Ok, it seems like I could start playing tonight. One thing though: the great merchant. Is there a way to find out the yield from sending him to different places?

Ok, it seems like I could start playing tonight. One thing though: the great merchant. Is there a way to find out the yield from sending him to different places?I think it's supposed to be a big, faraway city. You could start in Carthage, check the price, move on to America, then finally, Mehmed Land. There's no huge hurry anyway, right? Give or take a turn. The amount of cash you'll get is shown when you're in the city and you hover over that option, of course.

One thing I don't know is whether that AI being in Mercantilism affects the value. Be sure to check the value at Mehmed, just in case.

EDIT: Just don't cash it in during a revolt. Never tried it, but it'd be a shame if something weird happened.

I think it's supposed to be a big, faraway city. You could start in Carthage, check the price, move on to America, then finally, Mehmed Land. There's no huge hurry anyway, right? Give or take a turn. The amount of cash you'll get is shown when you're in the city and you hover over that option, of course.

One thing I don't know is whether that AI being in Mercantilism affects the value. Be sure to check the value at Mehmed, just in case.

EDIT: Just don't cash it in during a revolt. Never tried it, but it'd be a shame if something weird happened.

Did some searching: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=159047

Gold = S * (500 + (200 * T)), where S is the game speed modifier (150% on Epic) and T is the value of a regular trade route that would appear on the target city's screen were it trading with your capital.

...and...

The basic Formula for the value of a Trade route seems to be

[(1+F)*(5*(Pop-10))+100+Cap)* (Minimum ([T*50%], [D*50%]))*20%/100]

My edit for D*50% for a normal-sized map

F is 150% (1.5) if it is a Foreign Trade Route, 0 if domestic
Pop is the Pop of the city Getting the trade route
T is the Pop of the City the Trade Route is With
D is the Distance to the City
Cap is 25 if one of the cities is a Capital, 0 if not
[] indicates rounding down

So the minimum of T*50% and D*50% determines the trade mission yield, since all other things will be equal. I will check the distances and sizes involved.

Edit: Hang on, it is the target city's trade route yield. Doh. I give up.

So the minimum of T*50% and D*50% determines the trade mission yield, since all other things will be equal. I will check the distances and sizes involved.

Edit: Hang on, it is the target city's trade route yield. Doh. I give up.
How do you determine D, anyway?

Anyway, the easiest will be to ship him across with the galleon that's got the Explorer up W of CC and see what values you get in the various capitals. I suspect the best will be Mehmed, although I haven't checked the save carefully. Forget who's got the biggest city.

BTW, don't poprush Sankore right befrore doing this... :blush:

Bottom line, we're getting a raw deal because MW's population is so low. If we saved it for MW's pop to grow, we'd get more.

...
F is 150% (1.5) if it is a Foreign Trade Route, 0 if domestic
...


This indicates that Mercantilism reduces the profit by *alot* (40% compared to 100% with non-mercantilism). We could actually save him until we get a better deal.

What we want is that the city we send the GM to is a capital far away from our capital, and that our capital is large. It's perhaps best to move him around and take notes on the expected reward.

How do you determine D, anyway?

Anyway, the easiest will be to ship him across with the galleon that's got the Explorer up W of CC and see what values you get in the various capitals. I suspect the best will be Mehmed, although I haven't checked the save carefully. Forget who's got the biggest city.

BTW, don't poprush Sankore right befrore doing this... :blush:

Think D=1.5 for each diagonal move and D=1 for each EWNS move. As I read it, when the distance is larger than our capitals population (likely here) then the distance does not matter. Only the population of the other city matters.

So, I find the biggest city, use the pigs in MW for max growth until the GM arrives, and then we earn a few coins. :)

Is it worth it to milk MW? Say we find a size 20 city to burn the GM in. Then the trade route yield is

[(1+1.5)*(5*(20-10))+100+25)* (Minimum ([T*50%], [D*50%]))*20%/100]

(2.5*(50+100+25)*(MWpop*0.5*0.2)/100

437.5*MWpow*0.1/100
0.4375*MWpop

Then T times 300 gold + 750 gold

750 + 300*0.4375*MWpop


Each pop point in MW gives us 131 gold, if I have calculated correctly.

This indicates that Mercantilism reduces the profit by *alot* (40% compared to 100% with non-mercantilism). We could actually save him until we get a better deal.


I don't think Mercantilism matters. The yield is based not based on trade route income but on potential trade route income if the cities had a trade route.

But I will check the yield in a couple of places to see if the calculations are correct.

Each pop point in MW gives us 131 gold, if I have calculated correctly. Well, for starters, unless I'm reading it backwards, because of rounding Minimum ([T*50%], where T is MW's pop, the only pop difference that counts is even changes, ie., pop 14, 16, 18, 20 (now MW is 12).

Right now I'm getting Trade Route value for Istanbul (pop23) 5 and our bonanza = 1500:commerce:. Did I do that right?

EDIT: Oops, forgot the 150% for epic.... 2250 :commerce:

EDIT1:

Okay, the way I see (may be wrong, because I'm in a hurry to pack now):

MW pop12 -> Istanbul Trade route 5
pop14 -> 6 >> 2550:commerce:
pop16 -> 7 >> 2850:commerce:
pop18 -> 8 >> 3150:commerce:
pop20 -> 9 >> 3450:commerce:

EDIT2:
Assuming we use the pigs and finish Sankore, then work only food tiles BUT still hire 2 scientists the entire time (which I think is imperative), we grow 2 pop-points in MW every 7 turns.

And now I say GOOD BYE and GOOD LUCK!!!

Assuming we use the pigs and finish Sankore, then work only food tiles BUT still hire 2 scientists the entire time (which I think is imperative), we grow 2 pop-points in MW every 7 turns.

And now I say GOOD BYE and GOOD LUCK!!!

Now stop MM-ing and go away and enjoy on your trip. :)

LC - have a nice trip!

Started playing, on first turn.

Hannibal will make peace with Washington for Divine Right + Printing Press. Should I ask him to?

Check out Gandhi, the little warmongerer! I think we can expect an invasion soon! :)

151998

Stopped on turn four and uploaded the save. There are plenty of things happening with the other AIs, and we need to find a good strategy to deal with that.

Brief summary

Turn 0 (1250):
Lightbulb Printing Press
Trade Economics to Washington for Divine Right + map

Turn 1 (1256):
Hannibal asks for help against Washington, answer is no. Relation drops to cautious. Hannibal will make peace for DR+PP (or Economics+DR).
PP done, switch to Lib.

Turn 2 (1262):
Brennus becomes a vassal to Mehmed, now at war with Isabella. Brennus culture bombs(?), we lose Vienne pigs + Vienne E tile due to cultural expansion.
Hannibal has Liberalism.
Give Mehmed DR for peace with Isabella. All is calm on new continent again (except Hannibal vs Washington).

Turn 3 (1268):
Forgotten Palace done.
Gandhi has Longbow+settler N brown city

Turn 4 (1274):
Gandhi settles N of Brown city.
Washington asks for help against Hannibal, I decline.
Mehmed+Brennus declares war on Washington!

This is where I stop. Unless we do something very soon, Washington will be removed from power. We can bribe both Mehmed and Hannibal with Economics (+DR). Liberalism is due in three turns, after that we can gift it around (and at the same time adopt Free Speech + Free Market). This might help calm down the feelings a little. Other ideas?

We will also be able to open or close our borders to certain civs to influence their research rate...

Open borders does not affect the ability to have trade routes with an AI - only mercantilism and the connection of a trade network (ie a road +/or sea connection between capitals)

Well done so far Gnejs. The combination of Printing Press and Forbidden Palace has given our economy and our tech rate a much needed boost.

I have a bunch of (mainly minor) points from the current save:

As H already has Liberalism, we no longer need it for G to be able to trade it. However, it will of course be useful to get Free Speech (+ Free Trade I guess)
We should maximise our gpt income from our various resource deals
With Univ Sankore, we should take advantage and build some Hindu buildings (esp monasteries) in our research centres such as CC, Madrid, Karak and Bibracte (although 2 beakers per turn is small beer...)
If G goes for Free Religion (and he probably will soon) then the Spiral Minaret (and U Sankore) bwill be useless to him. Perhaps it would be better to pre-build the Spiral Minaret rather than completing it and cash it in for gold?
There is no great rush for HE in Vienne - there is no need to starve the city to work high production tiles
Verlamion has poor production - does it really need a forge?
Verlamion is currently undefended. It is nowhere near it happiness cap, but we should remember to send a unit there
Why are Bibracte and Karak running an engineer - wouldn't it be better to maximise growth and commerce?
CC would benefit from a bank or a Univ; MW would benefit from a forge or observatory; Stone Island needs a trading post rather than a theatre


Which tech path do we take next? Do we want the long slog to Mass Media for an early UN? Do we want early corporation (+Wall Street) and democracy (for emancipation and rapid town growth). Do we want early Assembly Line for killer production?

Washington is the best trading partner of G - therefore I guess it is in our interst to keep him as strong as possible (although we could of course just drip-feed him techs to trade with G...).

It might be a good time to DOW Brennus and take out his capital and Mehmed's cities of Gazientep and Dyanbakir. Mehmed doesn't yet have Astro so we can stop any naval transport of units and our Beserker army should be able to cope with any threat from him while a small contingent deals with Brennus's capital and Mehmed's outlying cities. It will also distract M from his war with W. I think there is a danger of Isa vassalising to M soon

EDIT: Make sure you have cashed in the GM first....

I am unkeen to give away our techs for peace with W, but you should do so if W looks in danger of losing more cities. Try to trade Gunpowder with H as soon as we can.

By coincidence I am also away tomorrow for a week 'skiing' (in Lanzarote). I hate to imagine the carnage that LC and I will return to after the 2 supreme warmongers have been allowed free rein for a week

Started playing, on first turn.

Hannibal will make peace with Washington for Divine Right + Printing Press. Should I ask him to?

Check out Gandhi, the little warmongerer! I think we can expect an invasion soon! :)

151998

Haha, this is going to be great! Our 1st step to victory takes place on the same day that LC runs for the hills! ... or takes a vacation in the mountains...

That'd be an ironic coincidence, or is it? :mischief:

By coincidence I am also away tomorrow for a week 'skiing' (in Lanzarote). I hate to imagine the carnage that LC and I will return to after the 2 supreme warmongers have been allowed free rein for a week

My set is after this one, but I'm a horrible warmongerer, :sad:

My set is after this one, but I'm a horrible warmongerer, :sad:

That's allright JERFit! Let's push through some very speedy turnsets, and exploit our freedom!

Speeking of exploits, what if we whip CC, BC and GC to one pop, gift them to Mehmed, and the attack them? Will they be destroyed? If so, we give Gandhi more space to expand (since he refuses to capture them) :confused:

Stopped on turn four
...
We can bribe both Mehmed and Hannibal with Economics (+DR). Liberalism is due in three turns, after that we can gift it around (and at the same time adopt Free Speech + Free Market). This might help calm down the feelings a little. Other ideas?

Why did you stop? Bribe H to peace, DoW on Mehmed and Kill'em All!!! :aargh: :aargh:

That's allright JERFit! Let's push through some very speedy turnsets, and exploit our freedom!

Speeking of exploits, what if we whip CC, BC and GC to one pop, gift them to Mehmed, and the attack them? Will they be destroyed? If so, we give Gandhi more space to expand (since he refuses to capture them) :confused:
:thumbdown
No - they will not be destroyed!. This is a BAD IDEA!!! Do not do it!!

Why did you stop? Bribe H to peace, DoW on Mehmed and Kill'em All!!! :aargh: :aargh:

If you are going to DOW, DOW on Brennus instead. It has the same overall effect but gets us only -1 rather than -3 with Mehmed.

It might be best if you didn't destroy everyone.....

If you plan to tech Sci Method next it is very important to build a couple of New World monasteries first (preferably at least 1 Hindu, Buddhist and Jewish one) so we can continue to build missionaries. Once we get Sci Meth, we can no longer build monasteries - and can no longer build missionaries *if* we switch away from Org Rel (maybe we won't want to.....). Hinduism should be spread to every city in the world - each extra Hindu city will be worth 3gpt once we get Wall Street in Bibracte

My set is after this one, but I'm a horrible warmongerer, :sad:

@JERFit: we are relying on you as the sole remaining voice of reason to keep the warmongering tendencies of Erkon and Gnejs in check for the next week.

Well done so far Gnejs. The combination of Printing Press and Forbidden Palace has given our economy and our tech rate a much needed boost.

I have a bunch of (mainly minor) points from the current save:

As H already has Liberalism, we no longer need it for G to be able to trade it. However, it will of course be useful to get Free Speech (+ Free Trade I guess)
We should maximise our gpt income from our various resource deals
With Univ Sankore, we should take advantage and build some Hindu buildings (esp monasteries) in our research centres such as CC, Madrid, Karak and Bibracte (although 2 beakers per turn is small beer...)
If G goes for Free Religion (and he probably will soon) then the Spiral Minaret (and U Sankore) bwill be useless to him. Perhaps it would be better to pre-build the Spiral Minaret rather than completing it and cash it in for gold?
There is no great rush for HE in Vienne - there is no need to starve the city to work high production tiles
Verlamion has poor production - does it really need a forge?
Verlamion is currently undefended. It is nowhere near it happiness cap, but we should remember to send a unit there
Why are Bibracte and Karak running an engineer - wouldn't it be better to maximise growth and commerce?
CC would benefit from a bank or a Univ; MW would benefit from a forge or observatory; Stone Island needs a trading post rather than a theatre


Which tech path do we take next? Do we want the long slog to Mass Media for an early UN? Do we want early corporation (+Wall Street) and democracy (for emancipation and rapid town growth). Do we want early Assembly Line for killer production?

Yes I saw that with Lib, but it seemed worthwhile to finish it ourselves anyway. Not the least for making the double civic change possible in three turns.

If Gandhi had wanted to have Free Religion he would have changed already. He is running Theocracy, and I guess that will remain as long as he is at war...

I started HE in Vienne mainly for the culture (!). We need to push back the borders to grab the pigs again, unless we want to go to war.

For some reason, Hannibal is not settling (yet) next to stone island, so I wanted to expand our cultural border before he changes his mind. Besides, it helps us get closer to enabling the globe theatre (not sure how useful that is though).

Will have a look at the engineers.

Washington is the best trading partner of G - therefore I guess it is in our interst to keep him as strong as possible (although we could of course just drip-feed him techs to trade with G...).

It might be a good time to DOW Brennus and take out his capital and Mehmed's cities of Gazientep and Dyanbakir. Mehmed doesn't yet have Astro so we can stop any naval transport of units and our Beserker army should be able to cope with any threat from him while a small contingent deals with Brennus's capital and Mehmed's outlying cities. It will also distract M from his war with W. I think there is a danger of Isa vassalising to M soon

EDIT: Make sure you have cashed in the GM first....

I am unkeen to give away our techs for peace with W, but you should do so if W looks in danger of losing more cities. Try to trade Gunpowder with H as soon as we can.

Now who is the warmongerer? :)

W is in great peril. The stack that Hannibal has in Atlanta could in competent hands take Washington (the capital) in 4-5 turns. I don't know how it looks on the Mehmed front, but I imagine W is terrified right now. :)

I don't see a big problem with giving away some economic techs, especially since this will help our economy as well. How about I buy peace for W with Economics+DR now, and give W Lib before the peace treaty ends? Then he might well switch to FR since he just lost his double holy city...

My set is after this one, but I'm a horrible warmongerer, :sad:

That's great, because we should focus on world peace now. Besides, I am also a horrible warmongerer. For my enemies that is... ;)

Why did you stop? Bribe H to peace, DoW on Mehmed and Kill'em All!!! :aargh: :aargh:

Because it was late at night and I ran out of time. Besides, Kill'em All doesn't seem the right way to go.

If you plan to tech Sci Method next it is very important to build a couple of New World monasteries first (preferably at least 1 Hindu, Buddhist and Jewish one) so we can continue to build missionaries. Once we get Sci Meth, we can no longer build monasteries - and can no longer build missionaries *if* we switch away from Org Rel (maybe we won't want to.....). Hinduism should be spread to every city in the world - each extra Hindu city will be worth 3gpt once we get Wall Street in Bibracte

Agreed on all points. But we should stay in Org Rel for a while, right? We don't need the improved relations, that is for Gandhi and Wash.

Haha, this is going to be great! Our 1st step to victory takes place on the same day that LC runs for the hills! ... or takes a vacation in the mountains...

That'd be an ironic coincidence, or is it? :mischief:With my brand-new private satelite, JERFit, I can see right into your bedroom. Wipe that ice cream off your nose...


I have a bunch of (mainly minor) points from the current save:

Verlamion has poor production - does it really need a forge?
We need research buildings here so with a hindu miss and a forge, poprushing will score a lot more hammers, but first we need to get all the farms working and then a couple citizens...

SImilarly in Madrid, I set it to forge after the granary, because we can poprush forge and university for full value, but not Oxford, so Oxford will get produced faster with the Hindu miss and forge +50%. My calcs show that we basically get teh forge for free that way.

How about I buy peace for W with Economics+DR now, and give W Lib before the peace treaty ends? Then he might well switch to FR since he just lost his double holy city...
Yes, bribe everyone for peace, spread Liberalism around. We need peace.

By the way, with my new satelite I can see everything but the save...anyway...on teh idea of free trade and all those trade routes, won't G be in the same boat as us? He also can't benefit from foreign trade routes with us...

Unless of course with that UN Resolution that makes all nations have foreign trade routes....:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: (Better check with Gyathaar if that might violate the spirit of being at permanent war with G...)

IDEA for Vienne: Build Vienne W instead of worrying about Brennus. It's better for HE anyway. (:lol: I know you're not going to, but it's still fun to throw some outrageous ideas at you while I sit back in my baech lounge chair and drink martinis...)

Oh Sh.t, my satelite signal is fad........

With my brand-new private satelite, JERFit, I can see right into your bedroom. Wipe that ice cream off your nose...




Yes, bribe everyone for peace, spread Liberalism around. We need peace.

By the way, with my new satelite I can see everything but the save...anyway...on teh idea of free trade and all those trade routes, won't G be in the same boat as us? He also can't benefit from foreign trade routes with us...

Unless of course with that UN Resolution that makes all nations have foreign trade routes....:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: (Better check with Gyathaar if that might violate the spirit of being at permanent war with G...)

IDEA for Vienne: Build Vienne W instead of worrying about Brennus. It's better for HE anyway. (:lol: I know you're not going to, but it's still fun to throw some outrageous ideas at you while I sit back in my baech lounge chair and drink martinis...)

Oh Sh.t, my satelite signal is fad........



Hey, shouldn't you be gone by now? Shoo, shoo!

Btw, I am also going away for a few days. Only four days though, back late on tuesday. Wow, Erkon and JERfit, only you two left... :eek:


I will finish my turnset tonight. It seems I have some support for going max peace, so I will follow that strategy.

Played 10 turns, hit end of turn just so we got out of anarchy, so technically that is 11 turns then. I hope you can forgive me, 'cause I have some good news. :)

Brief summary

Turn 4 (continued) 1274:
Trade with Hannibal: peace with W + map + 120 gold for Econ + DR
Trade with Mehmed: peace + map for Econ + PP

Turn 5 (1280):
Washington has self-researched Liberalism.
GM would give 1950 gold in Edirne (size 12, MW 13)

Turn 6 (1286):
W asks us to cancel deals with Brennus. All we have is 1 corn for 1 gpt, so I agree.
Isabella vassals to Mehmed.
Gandhi has a Galleon otw to Cape Fish. I evacuate the LB there.
GM would give 2550 gold in Istanbul (size 22, MW 13)
GM would give 1950 gold in Bursa (size 13, MW 13)

Turn 7 (1292):
Liberalism finished (I could have traded for it in the previous turns, but PP for 2 turns worth of research seemed like a poor deal)
I forget to revolt. :mad:

Turn 8 (1298):
G pillages fish at CF, moves towards MW. I send two galleons to protect our other fishing boats, but not attack.
Trade with W: Printing press for Gunpowder (see, a much better trade already)
GM still gives 2550 gold in Istanbul despite MW growing to size 14, so I burn it on a trade mission. We are now officially filthy rich. :)
Revolt to Free Speech + Free Market (3 turns). Didn't forget this time.

Turn 9 (1304):

Turn 10 (1310):
Hannibal revolts to Free Market + OrgRel. We immediately improve relations to pleased due to favourite civic.
Gandhi has Printing Press
I hit the end of turn button for...

Turn 11 (1316):
Out of anarchy. And..... (drumroll) .....










Gandhi attacks!




152053

:woohoo:

He apparently build a mace in Kolhapur. This mace captured the first worker that was now on his land and then retreated back to his city. But that apparently was enough to encourage the longbow to capture the second worker, right next to Commerce City. We now officially have the first Gandhi land unit in our territory. And it was on my watch. Great play, isn't it? :p


Now, we should suicide the warrior in CC against his longbow, or perhaps move it away (he might not dare capture an undefended city with a 99 HP unit...). Then as it seems that the worker trail idea worked (who was it that came up with that fine idea anyway? :hmm: :D ) we should plant new trails using more of our workers. We have too many of them anyway.
What do you think, CC->GC->MW?


We have a bunch of monasterys to whip before completing Scientific Method. A Hindu Mon should be built somewhere, Vienne is a good location since it needs the culture and has good production.

Hey, shouldn't you be gone by now? Shoo, shoo!I am gone.

'cause I have some good news. :) That's a first... ;)

Turn 11 (1316):
Out of anarchy. And..... (drumroll) .....

Gandhi attacks!

We now officially have the first Gandhi land unit in our territory. And it was on my watch. It's okay, JERFit, we all know it was technically an overflow into your turnset... Great play, isn't it? :p SUPERB!


Now, we should suicide the warrior in CC against his longbow, or perhaps move it away (he might not dare capture an undefended city with a 99 HP unit...). Then as it seems that the worker trail idea worked (who was it that came up with that fine idea anyway? :hmm: :D ) we should plant new trails using more of our workers. We have too many of them anyway.
What do you think, CC->GC->MW?


We have a bunch of monasterys to whip before completing Scientific Method. A Hindu Mon should be built somewhere, Vienne is a good location since it needs the culture and has good production. I'd say at least 2 Hindu Mionasteries, they're very useful.
EXCELLENT JOB, GNEJS!!!

I tested in WorldBuilder several times G taking our cities and even when I had 100 Modern Armour all over the place, his Warrior fearlessly captured my undefended captial EVRY TIME.

MOVE THE WARRIOR OUT>>LEAVE CC UNDEFENDED

On the worker path, I think it's tedious but VERY IMPORTANT to cancel the worker actions (RED X) each turn. That way they are always available to move to the appropriate place for the continuation of the worker trail.

Plus, leave MW undefended for that galleon, although I guess there's nothing in it. (But don't leave it undefended forever if the galleon moves on and MW is unhappy.)

I agree on CC>GC>MW. Hopefully, the capital will switch to Karak. We should work maximum food, proeduction and commerce tiles there and no poprushing if it looks like MW might fall.

Good Luck JERFit!!!

JERFit - Have you checked the save yet? Please announce a "got-it" and we can discuss what to do. Do you have any ideas?

My suggestions for the next turn-set

Research
We need monastaries before we get Scientific Methods, so I think we should shut down research until we are close to complete the needed monastaries. After SM, we go for Physics towards Multi Media.

Gandhi
Establish worker trails to GC and maintain the one to Brown City.
Avoid moving ships close to Gandhi borders. We don't want Gandhi to spot any of our units/ships. If Gandhi completes the Temple of Salomon, he can see our jewish cities, so they should at that time be evacuated as well

Murky Waters
Swap to Hindu Monastary

CC
Switch to build research
Remove scientist to grow in one turn
Move out the warrior (either towards MW or to the south.

Stone Island
Road the mine, then move the worker to improve the grasslands.

Karak
Remove engineer

Ning-Hsia
Perhaps a cottage or even a workshop could be useful 1S of the iron

Old-Sarai
Even here we should build cottages or workshops

Marble City
Swap to build jewish missionary, then send him to Gergovia
Then build jewish monastary in MC

Bibracte
Remove engineer

Tolosa
Swap to Hindu Monastary

Gergovia
Build jewish monastary when jewish missionary arrives

Vienne
Hindu Monastary

I'm a horrible team member, but would you care to swap with me Erkon, or would you be ok to wait for me until tomorrow or the day after? :)

I'm a horrible team member, but would you care to swap with me Erkon, or would you be ok to wait for me until tomorrow or the day after? :)

I can swap, but I can wait as well. We're not in a hurry, and the point with this game is for everyone to get involved. If you want to play, then play when you have time. If you don't want to play this turn set, then I will do it. No problem whatever you choose :)

Got it, I'll play sometime tomorrow, It's getting late and I just barely got home. I'm tired, :)

Please try to get the two hindu and jew monastaries before completing Scientific Methods.

Good luck!

I'm a horrible team member, but would you care to swap with me Erkon, or would you be ok to wait for me until tomorrow or the day after? :)We're all busy, so that's normal. Otherwise, you've played your turnsets timely and effectively, so I don't think anyone here sees you as anything but a fine team member.

Please try to get the two hindu and jew monastaries before completing Scientific Methods.

Good luck!Erkon, I can't see the save (I'm in an internet cafe in Athens...), so do you think you could also give JERFit a quick summary of our current trade/AI relations strategy? It's usually helpful to summarize that frequently anyway.

JERFit, do your best to give away CC and maybe even GC or MW or any other city in that region. Don't hold back, as weird as it may seem.

If Hannibal or anyone else does something weird, do your best to handle it or save and ask Erkon, if you have doubts...

Good luck JERFit!

There are no trade opportunities right now that we shall agree on (almost all AI has the same tech level). JERFit - check the diplomacy chart each turn to check if a tech is available for trade. I don't see any real reason why not to agree to a deal if possible.

Also, check cities that grow a pop, since the game likes to asign specialists. We don't want any more, since we want the cities to grow (both the old and the new).

Other than that, we should be as nice as possible to everyone. Don't change religion or civics due to demands. Tech is fine to give I think.

I would like to start off by saying that Ghandi is the biggest waster that there has ever been. He stole about 4-6 workers, defeated a suicide warrior, and captured a total of 0(!!) cities. :mad:

Other than that

I completed 2 hindu monasteries (MW, Vienne, and maybe another one, I don't quite remember) and 2 Jewish monasteries (Georgetown and MC).

Completed Scientific Method and started Constitution.

There's a Ghandi Galleon creeping around the Northern coast heading south. Hopefully a rather small invasion? :(

and oh yeah, OIL! :goodjob:

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1316 AD to 1376 AD:


Turn 277, 1322 AD: The borders of New Sarai have expanded!
Turn 277, 1322 AD: The borders of Bibracte have expanded!
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Rabbi Akiva (Great Prophet) has been born in Delhi (Gandhi)!

Turn 278, 1328 AD: Francis Bacon (Great Scientist) has been born in Carthage (Hannibal)!

Turn 279, 1334 AD: You have constructed a Hindu Monastery in Murky Waters. Work has now begun on a Stable.
Turn 279, 1334 AD: The borders of Commerce City have expanded!
Turn 279, 1334 AD: Gandhi has completed The Temple of Solomon!

Turn 280, 1340 AD: The borders of Vienne have expanded!

Turn 281, 1346 AD: Judaism has spread in Gergovia.
Turn 281, 1346 AD: While defending, your Worker was destroyed by a Indian Longbowman!

Turn 282, 1352 AD: You have discovered Nationalism!
Turn 282, 1352 AD: Turfan has grown to size 10
Turn 282, 1352 AD: You have constructed a Theatre in Stone Island. Work has now begun on a Trading Post.

Turn 283, 1358 AD: The enemy has been spotted near New Sarai!
Turn 283, 1358 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Cape Fish!
Turn 283, 1358 AD: Karak has grown to size 18
Turn 283, 1358 AD: You have constructed a Hindu Monastery in Tolosa. Work has now begun on a Library.
Turn 283, 1358 AD: Bibracte has grown to size 18
Turn 283, 1358 AD: Tolosa's cultural boundary is about to expand.

Turn 284, 1364 AD: The enemy has been spotted near New Sarai!
Turn 284, 1364 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Commerce City!
Turn 284, 1364 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Commerce City!
Turn 284, 1364 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Cape Fish!
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Commerce City will grow to size 14 on the next turn
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Commerce City will become unhappy on the next turn
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Turfan will grow to size 11 on the next turn
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Murky Waters has completed The Spiral Minaret!
Turn 284, 1364 AD: The borders of Tolosa have expanded!
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Verlamion has grown to size 9
Turn 284, 1364 AD: The borders of Verlamion have expanded!
Turn 284, 1364 AD: You have constructed a Hindu Monastery in Gergovia. Work has now begun on a Forge.
Turn 284, 1364 AD: While defending, your Worker was destroyed by a Indian Maceman!
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Isabella adopts Free Religion!

Turn 285, 1370 AD: The enemy has been spotted near New Sarai!
Turn 285, 1370 AD: The enemy has been spotted near New Sarai!
Turn 285, 1370 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Commerce City!
Turn 285, 1370 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Cape Fish!
Turn 285, 1370 AD: You have discovered Scientific Method!
Turn 285, 1370 AD: You have discovered a source of Oil near New Sarai!
Turn 285, 1370 AD: You have discovered a source of Oil near Tolosa!
Turn 285, 1370 AD: You have discovered a source of Oil near Bibracte!
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Commerce City has grown to size 14
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Commerce City has become unhappy
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Turfan has grown to size 11
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Bibracte will grow to size 19 on the next turn
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Gergovia will grow to size 7 on the next turn
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Madrid will grow to size 11 on the next turn
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Camulodunum's cultural boundary is about to expand.

Turn 286, 1376 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Samarqand!
Turn 286, 1376 AD: The enemy has been spotted near New Sarai!
Turn 286, 1376 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Commerce City!
Turn 286, 1376 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Brown City!
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Murky Waters's Warrior (2.20) vs Gandhi's Maceman (12.80)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Combat Odds: 0.0%
Turn 286, 1376 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: (Combat: +50%)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Murky Waters's Warrior is hit for 41 (59/100HP)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Murky Waters's Warrior is hit for 41 (18/100HP)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Murky Waters's Warrior is hit for 41 (0/100HP)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Gandhi's Maceman has defeated Murky Waters's Warrior!
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Your Warrior has died trying to attack a Maceman!

I would like to start off by saying that Ghandi is the biggest waster that there has ever been. He stole about 4-6 workers, defeated a suicide warrior, and captured a total of 0(!!) cities. :mad:


:lol: Amazing! Anyway - good play! :goodjob:

Turn 279, 1334 AD: Gandhi has completed The Temple of Solomon!

This is excellent! Lets start building missionaries - both for our cities and all the other AI's cities as well.

JERFit - I looked at the save and the indicates that Gandhi moved the mace next to CC and then withdraw on the next turn? I didn't know that was possible....

I even tried putting a worker next to CC and then 3 undefended workers in CC and he still didn't go for it. Maybe he has problems with following through?:confused:

Ok, guys, I'm back and ready ready to ruin our culture graph full force.

JERFit, just one question. When G had the unit next to the undefended CC and didnt attack it, did he withdraw or attack another one of our workers instead?

I even tried putting a worker next to CC and then 3 undefended workers in CC and he still didn't go for it. Maybe he has problems with following through?:confused:SO was that G unit sitting outside CC for more than one turn?

Erkon, you want to go next or should I? Either way, I think we need to keep this rolling along, because we may have a long way to go, this being a space race.

LC - you are ahead of me in the list, so you go first. When will BP be back? Gnejs should be back tonight i.e. will start post tomorrow.

I have been thinking a bit about the situation we have. Both Isabella, Brennus and Mehmed are pushing our culture. How about gifting Stone City and Samarqand to Isa & Brennus, then attack the triumvirate? We can then gift some of Mehmed cities to Washington. Mehmed can keep the city next to Bibracte. This would give both Washington and us better research, which is good for us and Gandhi, but bad for Mehmed :)

LC - you are ahead of me in the list, so you go first. When will BP be back? Gnejs should be back tonight i.e. will start post tomorrow.

I have been thinking a bit about the situation we have. Both Isabella, Brennus and Mehmed are pushing our culture. How about gifting Stone City and Samarqand to Isa & Brennus, then attack the triumvirate? We can then gift some of Mehmed cities to Washington. Mehmed can keep the city next to Bibracte. This would give both Washington and us better research, which is good for us and Gandhi, but bad for Mehmed :)Just to clarify, are you suggesting leaving Isa and B with just those cities and taking their other ones? I definitely see the benefit to our economy, both getting rid of those two and gaining Isa's current city and Silver city.

I have two hesitations:

I wouldn't trust H to not kill those two off, which is not in our long-term interests, and
I like Stone Island, cost and all as a strategic buffer between H and G. (Do you think that's unnecessary?)
Otherwise, I think your strategy could be okay. Brennus won't talk yet.

I think it's good to also start thinking in terms of the world oil and uranium supplies. Mehmed has oil next to Bibracte, Hannibal has none. If we get Physics next (7t at 100%), we'll get the GS and find out where uranium is, which could work well with DOWing Mehmed.

Not sure when BP gets back. He can play his turnset when he comes. For now let's say I'm swapping with him:

"GOT IT."

Ok, guys, I'm back and ready ready to ruin our culture graph full force.

JERFit, just one question. When G had the unit next to the undefended CC and didnt attack it, did he withdraw or attack another one of our workers instead?
No he withdrew... I started putting even more workers, so that he could attack those, too, but to no avail. My thinking was that if I was able to get him into our heartland that he would have no choice but to attack something.

SO was that G unit sitting outside CC for more than one turn?

He would attack a worker standing next to CC and then on the next turn withdraw along with the worker. So I then put a worker next to CC and 2 undefended workers in CC, and he captured the one outside CC and retreated the same next turn. This went on rhythmically for the entirety of my turnset.

He would attack a worker standing next to CC and then on the next turn withdraw along with the worker. So I then put a worker next to CC and 2 undefended workers in CC, and he captured the one outside CC and retreated the same next turn. This went on rhythmically for the entirety of my turnset.Ok, this is excellent info. Makes sense, I guess, since his mace is alone, that G uses it to escort the worker.

Think I'll try sticking one of our remaining warriors W of CC instead of a worker, see what happens. G has now passed us on the Power Graph, so maybe he'll gain some courage.

Actually, since G nows sees inside CC, I think I'll first try leaving the Mace with nothing to take anywhere and see if he moves on CC.

Our research is crawling at a snail's pace. H is cooking along twice faster than everyone else. We're way overextended. Mass Media is an eternity away with the UN build still after that. Not sure that's our highest priority.

I'm liking Democracy and Emancipation to get our towns growing twice faster. H already has constitution, if he gets Demo and switches to Emanc, we're all fried (unhapiness).

Details from my plan:

Spam Jewish Misses in MC at 20:hammers:/t
Spam Hindu Misses in Gergovia
MM everywhere
Protect our nets with our galleons

Notes:

If we spread HInduism to future G cities, he'll have unhappiness there because of warring with brothers of the faith (but only until FR).
Guys, there's no point in letting G pillage our nets. We have idle 8 galleons.

Nice play JERFit! :thumbsup:

Gandhi not capturing CC is, well, extraordinary. The stupidity of the AI even surpasses that of Erkon. :eek: :eek: :eek:
Not much to say, other than that I now feel totally ashamed of every loss I have ever had to this AI... :)

Turn 282, 1352 AD: You have discovered Nationalism!


Who was this trade with, and for what?

Our research is crawling at a snail's pace. H is cooking along twice faster than everyone else. We're way overextended. Mass Media is an eternity away with the UN build still after that. Not sure that's our highest priority.

I'm liking Democracy and Emancipation to get our towns growing twice faster. H already has constitution, if he gets Demo and switches to Emanc, we're all fried (unhapiness).

Details from my plan:

Spam Jewish Misses in MC at 20:hammers:/t
Spam Hindu Misses in Gergovia
MM everywhere
Protect our nets with our galleons

Notes:

If we spread HInduism to future G cities, he'll have unhappiness there because of warring with brothers of the faith (but only until FR).
Guys, there's no point in letting G pillage our nets. We have idle 8 galleons.


Hannibal will lose his +2 trade routes/coastal city with Corporation, so there is no need to worry about his research rate.

We shouldn't worry about emancipation, the unhappiness takes some time to kick in, and is only a worry if several civs have it simultaneously. By then we should be able to trade for Democracy.
I would rather wait with the switch until we can vote it through in the UN. That would save us 3+ turns of Anarchy, well worth a few unhappy citizens in the meantime.

I "escorted" Gandhi's Galleon along our coast, parking one of ours on the nets when necessary. I suggest you do the same.

Mass Media is not that far away. If we get Physics first we can lightbulb part of Electricity with the free scientist. Can we farm an engineer also? (haven't looked at the save yet)


I also don't see the hurry to adjust the Brennus/Isabella situation. Erkon's solution helps us but not Gandhi. Better to tech fast towards MM and the UN.


PS. Hope you had a good time in Greece!


Edit: Whip some forges in MW, CC, etc. We have angry citizens and food to spare, a forge gives an instant +2 happy.

Hannibal will lose his +2 trade routes/coastal city with Corporation, so there is no need to worry about his research rate. In general, I'm not worried about H's rate, I'm worried about everyone else being so slow.... We want fast research worldwide.

We shouldn't worry about emancipation, the unhappiness takes some time to kick in, and is only a worry if several civs have it simultaneously. By then we should be able to trade for Democracy.
I would rather wait with the switch until we can vote it through in the UN. That would save us 3+ turns of Anarchy, well worth a few unhappy citizens in the meantime. OK.

I "escorted" Gandhi's Galleon along our coast, parking one of ours on the nets when necessary. I suggest you do the same. Good idea.

Mass Media is not that far away. If we get Physics first we can lightbulb part of Electricity with the free scientist. The GS bulbs Chemistry then Biology before Electricity. Can we farm an engineer also? (haven't looked at the save yet)


I also don't see the hurry to adjust the Brennus/Isabella situation. Erkon's solution helps us but not Gandhi. Better to tech fast towards MM and the UN. That's good because I'm not in the warmongering mood right now.


PS. Hope you had a good time in Greece!Yes, I did, thanks. Ate lots of good food and enjoyed the Greek spirit of play.

So anyone disagree if I research Physics next? SHould we continue at 50%? I think it's not a bad idea as it gives us a cushion if we decide we need to research something else in a hurry.

I also noticed a couple good sites for giveaway cities on the old continent on the far wast fish in the new homeland. Plus, Washington and H and settling the old continent like leeches.

... The stupidity of the AI even surpasses that of Erkon. :eek: :eek: :eek:
...

And where do you fit in that ranking? I thought you had got enough spanking from WOTM8 conquest challenge :cry: :whipped:

...
Think I'll try sticking one of our remaining warriors W of CC instead of a worker, see what happens. G has now passed us on the Power Graph, so maybe he'll gain some courage.

Actually, since G nows sees inside CC, I think I'll first try leaving the Mace with nothing to take anywhere and see if he moves on CC.

You can start without warrior and if that doesn't help, you can move the warrior to the tile W of CC.

Mass Media is good to research, since the AI does not go for it. This means we can get techs that are easy to trade away.

Missionaries are top priority. I would also suggest that you build a LBM and sacrifice him against a LBM in Gandhi-city. Anything that will boast the confidence of Gandhi army. Remember, we shall teach him the art of war!

Do we know what happiness resources G has? He will get WW from capturing our cities, yes? OTOH, with this rate, the WW will drop quicker than he can generate them :lol:

...
I also don't see the hurry to adjust the Brennus/Isabella situation. Erkon's solution helps us but not Gandhi. Better to tech fast towards MM and the UN.
...
Edit: Whip some forges in MW, CC, etc. We have angry citizens and food to spare, a forge gives an instant +2 happy.

Ok, we can wait the attack, although I still think that Washington will have better use of the cities than Mehmed.

...
So anyone disagree if I research Physics next? SHould we continue at 50%? I think it's not a bad idea as it gives us a cushion if we decide we need to research something else in a hurry.
...


Run research at 100% until we get physics. Then shut down and save up to a few grand. We can then research Electricity at 100%.

Do we know what happiness resources G has? He will get WW from capturing our cities, yes? OTOH, with this rate, the WW will drop quicker than he can generate them :lol: Contrary to some wive's tales I've read, capturing wkrs also contributes to WW (I tested it). So G will be affected by teh 23,498 wkrs he's captured from us.

@Gnejs, btw, according to the Gnejs Worker-Trail Strategy, how many wkrs do we have to sacrifice before G will capture CC? (I seem to have missed that detail... :lol: )

Okay, guys, I'll play tonight or more likely tomorrow AM.

@Gnejs, btw, according to the Gnejs Worker-Trail Strategy, how many wkrs do we have to sacrifice before G will capture CC? (I seem to have missed that detail... :lol: )


No comment. Grrrrr. :mad:

Who was this trade with, and for what?

Geeze I forget everything, I traded for astronomy to Mehmed.

Okay, guys, I'll play tonight or more likely tomorrow AM.

LC? Have you gone fishing? :bump:

LC? Have you gone fishing? :bump:

He didn't say he was going to post his save or inform us that Gandhi has taken both CC and GC though. Right LC?

Impatient warmongers, I've played a number of turns and will finish soon, but so far G is the Number One All-Time Chump.

Okay, played to the end of my tenth turn.

Oxford
I was reluctant to stop--wanted to play three more turns to poprush the University in Madrid properly, but I decided to risk leaving that up to BP or Erkon. (The idea being to maximize the :hammers: overflow to Oxford = popr for 2 citizens when there are 229:hammers:.)

Anyway, uneventful turnset.
Spent most of the time watching a G maceman's poopy butt. These techniques all failed:

evacuating all wkrs so the undamaged mace had no choice but to capture (but he retreated)
offering a warrior, which the mace promptly devoured and retreated with damages
offering a scout, which the mace devoured with no damge and then retreated
In the offing: I have put the remaining scout in a position where the mace can capture in one turn, but after which we can send double-hill-defense promoted LBMs to those 2 hills, attempting to block the mace's retreat path. (Ultimately, I'm thinking we might want to bait, then completely surround the mace, giving him no choice but to attack, capture or wait.)

Spammed lots of Jewish misses, all successful, and 1 Hindu miss in Barcelona.

Pulled off a lot of good poprushes in cities with lots of food, let pop grow in cities without much. Bibrachte is now a financial and research powerhouse. In fact, I see no reason to poprush there for now, because there's nothing left that's vital to poprush. We want to get our 6 banks for Wall Street, because Corporation's not far off.

Main reasons I stopped:

We can now trade for Constitution if we want to give up SciMeth. I propose we give it to Mehmed, as H already has Replaceable Parts and is probably aiming for Rifling.
We also have enough gold to go 100% to Electricity in 6t if we decide to do that now.
G has Chemistry. Let's hope he's building Grenadiers... If we're not concerned with everyone getting Chemistry and Rifling, then we could quickly research GP Chemistry (2t, I think), so G would trade it to Washington for Constitution, meanwhile we trade it to H or Mehmed for Constitution.
Here is your Session Turn Log from 1376 AD to 1436 AD:

Turn 286, 1376 AD: Murky Waters's Warrior (2.20) vs Gandhi's Maceman (12.80)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Combat Odds: 0.0%
Turn 286, 1376 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: (Combat: +50%)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Murky Waters's Warrior is hit for 41 (59/100HP)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Murky Waters's Warrior is hit for 41 (18/100HP)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Murky Waters's Warrior is hit for 41 (0/100HP)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Gandhi's Maceman has defeated Murky Waters's Warrior!
Turn 286, 1376 AD: You have constructed a Observatory in Murky Waters. Work has now begun on a Stable.
Turn 286, 1376 AD: The borders of Camulodunum have expanded!
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Mehmed II adopts Free Market!
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Mehmed II adopts Free Religion!
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Hinduism has spread in Diyarbakir.

Turn 287, 1382 AD: Gandhi's Maceman (8.80) vs Murky Waters's Warrior (1.73)
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 287, 1382 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 287, 1382 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 287, 1382 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 287, 1382 AD: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Gandhi's Maceman is hit for 9 (91/100HP)
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Murky Waters's Warrior is hit for 40 (60/100HP)
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Gandhi's Maceman is hit for 9 (82/100HP)
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Gandhi's Maceman is hit for 9 (73/100HP)
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Murky Waters's Warrior is hit for 40 (20/100HP)
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Gandhi's Maceman is hit for 9 (64/100HP)
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Gandhi's Maceman is hit for 9 (55/100HP)
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Murky Waters's Warrior is hit for 40 (0/100HP)
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Gandhi's Maceman has defeated Murky Waters's Warrior!

Turn 288, 1388 AD: You have trained Jewish Missionary in Marble City. Work has now begun on a Library.
Turn 288, 1388 AD: You have constructed a University in Karak. Work has now begun on a Explorer.
Turn 288, 1388 AD: The borders of Besh have expanded!

Turn 289, 1394 AD: You have constructed a Forge in Verlamion. Work has now begun on a Observatory.
Turn 289, 1394 AD: You have discovered a source of Silver near Barcelona!
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Antony van Leeuwenhoek (Great Scientist) has been born in Istanbul (Mehmed II)!

Turn 290, 1400 AD: Judaism has spread in Gold City.
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The borders of Gold City have expanded!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The borders of Karak have expanded!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The borders of Brown City have expanded!

Turn 291, 1406 AD: You have constructed a Forge in Murky Waters. Work has now begun on a Work Boat.
Turn 291, 1406 AD: You have trained Jewish Missionary in Marble City. Work has now begun on a Library.
Turn 291, 1406 AD: Old Sarai celebrates "We Love the Monarch Day"!!!

Turn 292, 1412 AD: James Clerk Maxwell (Great Scientist) has been born in Murky Waters (Murky Waters)!
Turn 292, 1412 AD: You have discovered Physics!
Turn 292, 1412 AD: Old Sarai celebrates "We Love the Monarch Day"!!!

Turn 293, 1418 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Samarqand!
Turn 293, 1418 AD: Gandhi's Maceman (8.80) vs Murky Waters's Scout (1.25)
Turn 293, 1418 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 293, 1418 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 293, 1418 AD: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 293, 1418 AD: Murky Waters's Scout is hit for 44 (56/100HP)
Turn 293, 1418 AD: Murky Waters's Scout is hit for 44 (12/100HP)
Turn 293, 1418 AD: Murky Waters's Scout is hit for 44 (0/100HP)
Turn 293, 1418 AD: Gandhi's Maceman has defeated Murky Waters's Scout!
Turn 293, 1418 AD: Washington adopts Mercantilism!
Turn 293, 1418 AD: Washington adopts Free Religion!

Turn 294, 1424 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Turfan!
Turn 294, 1424 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Samarqand!
Turn 294, 1424 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Commerce City!
Turn 294, 1424 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Madrid!
Turn 294, 1424 AD: Judaism has spread in Brown City.
Turn 294, 1424 AD: Hinduism has spread in Barcelona.
Turn 294, 1424 AD: You have trained Jewish Missionary in Marble City. Work has now begun on a Library.

Turn 295, 1430 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Turfan!
Turn 295, 1430 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Stone Island!
Turn 295, 1430 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Commerce City!
Turn 295, 1430 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Brown City!
Turn 295, 1430 AD: The borders of Madrid have expanded!
Turn 295, 1430 AD: The borders of Barcelona have expanded!

Turn 296, 1436 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Turfan!
Turn 296, 1436 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Stone Island!
Turn 296, 1436 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Salamanca!
Turn 296, 1436 AD: Judaism has spread in New Sarai.

Couple more details:

Seville's a weird case, really a prod center--lots of hammers not much gold. I set it to Bank, simply to prep for Wall Street.
G is performing economic guerilla warfare on us now--he's got two caravels camped out on our Turfan whales.
Oh yeah: Guess what LC discovered?! Uranium and :trophy2nd:

That's right: SILVER!!!!

Autographs will be given out at some future date.

I am disappointed to see you lot haven't managed to wrap it up yet - or even give up 1 inch of Viking territory to G. I think this calls for something radical (don't know what tho' - perhaps LC will tell me....)

Got it (before Erkon tries to get his sticky fingers on the save)

...
That's right: SILVER!!!!
...

Darn, there goes my final reason for warfare... Ok, let's tread the boring research path 'till feet bleed :(

j/k - this is good news for our large cities :)

or even give up 1 inch of Viking territory to G. Not entirely true. We gave him a couple tiles up N. And guess what--he's got OIL because of it, though he doesn't know that yet... I think this calls for something radical (don't know what tho' - perhaps LC will tell me....)
Oh, you mean one of my wild ideas to which you are supposed to say: "That's very interesting, LC" ? Well, guess what, waster, you're on your own: That well dried up from lack of use... :lol:. I don't think we need to get too stressed about G capturing our cities. The main ones are all Jewish now, he's been ahead of us on the Power graph for 15 turns now, and he reseaerched GP early in my turnset, so I suspect he's going to bulldozer us sooner or later. We do need to keep an eye on Mehmed and H though, cause they're not far behind us in Power.

Oh yeah, welcome back, hope you had a good time and I'm glad you're here just in time to poprush that Madrid Univ the right way...

In the offing: I have put the remaining scout in a position where the mace can capture in one turn, but after which we can send double-hill-defense promoted LBMs to those 2 hills, attempting to block the mace's retreat path. (Ultimately, I'm thinking we might want to bait, then completely surround the mace, giving him no choice but to attack, capture or wait.)Forgot to mention that I have three knights moving toward a galleon chain for transport to CC, where they can help surround the mace and "encourage" him to capture rather than retreat.

Plus, I may have an automove or two going because, like I said, I was planning to play a few more turns, when suddenly Constitution became available.

Edit: Whip some forges in MW, CC, etc. We have angry citizens and food to spare, a forge gives an instant +2 happy.Thanks for the suggestion, Gnejs, it worked like a charm. I loved this turnset actually, lots of MM... :D

Just hope I didn't overdo it in Bibracte--unhappiness from the next poprush will take 295 turns to wear off............................................... .................................(:joke:)

Well played, LC! :thumbsup:

Some nice developments:
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Mehmed II adopts Free Market!
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Mehmed II adopts Free Religion!
Turn 293, 1418 AD: Washington adopts Free Religion!

The AI relations should be improving a lot now.


Main reasons I stopped:

We can now trade for Constitution if we want to give up SciMeth. I propose we give it to Mehmed, as H already has Replaceable Parts and is probably aiming for Rifling.
We also have enough gold to go 100% to Electricity in 6t if we decide to do that now.
G has Chemistry. Let's hope he's building Grenadiers... If we're not concerned with everyone getting Chemistry and Rifling, then we could quickly research GP (2t, I think), so G would trade it to Washington for Constitution, meanwhile we trade it to H or Mehmed for Constitution.


Yes, trade as much as possible and go for Electricity. Btw, we already have Gunpowder! :D

Did you keep the free scientist around?

Originally Posted by LowtherCastle
Main reasons I stopped:

We can now trade for Constitution if we want to give up SciMeth. I propose we give it to Mehmed, as H already has Replaceable Parts and is probably aiming for Rifling.
We also have enough gold to go 100% to Electricity in 6t if we decide to do that now.
G has Chemistry. Let's hope he's building Grenadiers... If we're not concerned with everyone getting Chemistry and Rifling, then we could quickly research GP Chemistry (2t, I think), so G would trade it to Washington for Constitution, meanwhile we trade it to H or Mehmed for Constitution.

Yes, trade as much as possible and go for Electricity. Btw, we already have Gunpowder! :D I meant Chemistry, of course. G won't trade it until someone else has it.

Did you keep the free scientist around?Yes, the GS is a few tiles SW of MW and labeled. Since we want G to capture undefended MW, I didn't want to see any inadvertant goof-ups.

Not sure what to do with the GS. He might help most with an academy in Bibracte, or we could save him for a Golden Age. Not sure there's any point in lightbulbing Chemistry. I think lighbulbing is generally considered a bit pointless at this stage of the game, since our cottage economy is shifting into overdrive.

BTW, we'll be popping a GS or GA pretty soon (10-15t, I think). Maybe we should hire an enginner in MW now that we have a forge. GIve us an outside chance of popping a GE.

Yes, the GS is a few tiles SW of MW and labeled. Since we want G to capture undefended MW, I didn't want to see any inadvertant goof-ups.

Not sure what to do with the GS. He might help most with an academy in Bibracte, or we could save him for a Golden Age. Not sure there's any point in lightbulbing Chemistry. I think lighbulbing is generally considered a bit pointless at this stage of the game, since our cottage economy is shifting into overdrive.

BTW, we'll be popping a GS or GA pretty soon (10-15t, I think). Maybe we should hire an enginner in MW now that we have a forge. GIve us an outside chance of popping a GE.

We have a Great general in Bibcrate. Can we spend this and the scientist on a Golden Age? Otherwise I would recommend lightbulbing Chemistry. It saves us a few turns, and if we can trade the tech it might benefit Gandhi with a few turns of research too. It also opens up Biology so we can get that in a later trade. The AI usually prioritizes Bio.

The academy won't pay off until too late anyway.

Hire that engineer in MW. We are entitled to a lucky break by now.

Where to build Oxford? Bibracte or Madrid?

Okay, here's an important topic to discuss right now, because if we want to build Oxford in Bibracte, BP should poprush the CH on Turn Zero to maximize overflow.
Madrid is not producing as much base gold as Bibracte even without the Artemis 100% trade route bonus.
Madrid has growth problems because of Edirne cultural boundaries.
We have a spare GS to build an academy in Bibracte.
Bibracte has fewer base :hammers: but we could overcome that with some clever poprushing. (Stables, theatre, Hindu Temple are 1t, 1t and 2t builds with max-overflow poprush capabilites.)


Votes, anyone? I vote for Bibracte.

EDIT:
We have a Great general in Bibcrate. Can we spend this and the scientist on a Golden Age? No. Otherwise I would recommend lightbulbing Chemistry. It saves us a few turns, We would get Chemistry done in 1 turn instead of 3, plus 1 turn to get the lost cash back = 3t savings. and if we can trade the tech it might benefit Gandhi with a few turns of research too. It ought to enable G to trade for Constitution immediately.

The academy won't pay off until too late anyway. In Bibracte it would take 74 turns of 100% research to break even. EDIT: more like about 55-60 turns, because Bibracte will benefit from 2 additional trade routes eventually.

Rigth now we would we get an increase in our base income of 206:commerce:/turn for a golden age, plus hammers of course.

Hire that engineer in MW. We are entitled to a lucky break by now.

Where to build Oxford? Bibracte or Madrid?

Okay, here's an important topic to discuss right now, because if we want to build Oxford in Bibracte, BP should poprush the CH on Turn Zero to maximize overflow.
Madrid is not producing as much base gold as Bibracte even without the Artemis 100% trade route bonus.
Madrid has growth problems because of Edirne cultural boundaries. Once we get a few culture producing buildings in Madrid this will not be a problem
We have a spare GS to build an academy in Bibracte.
Bibracte has fewer base :hammers: but we could overcome that with some clever poprushing. (Stables, theatre, Hindu Temple are 1t, 1t and 2t builds with max-overflow poprush capabilites.)


Votes, anyone? I vote for Bibracte.


LC is correct in that the base commerce in Bibracte is much greater than that in Madrid (almost twice as much - but that will decrease once we lose the Artemis bonus), now that we have switched to Free Speech and our towns are pulling in 8:commerce: per turn. The lower production is not great but some clever chopping and a switch to U Suff (giving an extra 7 1/2 hammers per turn in Bibracte) will help. The main problem tho' is that we also want to build Wall Street in Bibracte - which at 900 hammers is going to be a long slow slog. I guess we could get started on Oxford now while we are building the banks needed for Wall Street.

As for the GS, saving it for a GA seems the best bet at present. On the subject of GAs, we should probably try to be building the Taj someplace (?BC) - even if we fail, the money will be useful....

:science: once we lose the Artemis bonus Okay, I just realized something: the Artemis loss is 50%+ countered in Bibracte by its harbor (50%) which Madrid can't have, and its greater population potential (+).

The main problem tho' is that we also want to build Wall Street in Bibracte - which at 900 hammers is going to be a long slow slog. I guess we could get started on Oxford now while we are building the banks needed for Wall Street. Well, we would start Oxford on Turn 1 (you'd also have to poprush 1 more university, Madrid or Camul... on Turn Zero) and I think it will be done well before we get to Wall Street time.

As for the GS, saving it for a GA seems the best bet at present. On the subject of GAs, we should probably try to be building the Taj someplace (?BC) - even if we fail, the money will be useful....If we happen to pop a Great Artist, he'll lightbulb Radio or MM. If we pop a GE, he's on the UN, so actually, thinking carefully, it appears that a golden age isn't in the cards anyway. Unless we want to save it for the next GL which is likely to be a Great Prophet in Bibracte.

EDIT: BOttom line on Oxford is that it'll give us a lot more :science: in the short term in Bibracte and it'll have the realistic potential to give us about 137:science: , whereas in Madrid, the realistic potential is about 105:science: . Furthermore, whether there is an academy is irrelevant, because the bonuses are only additive.

Barcelona
Without further warring, Barcelona is our only useful naval production center. It could produce 16 base :hammers:. Add a forge, military academy, factory, etc. and it'd be cooking. I think it's important for us to control the seaways.

If you all agree, I think it's important to NOT poprush in Barcelona, because of its slow growth, and prioritize these builds: TP>forge>production facilities.

At present we seem to be beelining Elec>Radio>Mass Media in order to get the UN built and pass some useful resolutions. But is this the best strategy? In themselves the techs Elec, Radio and MM are not particularly useful to us at present (we have no windmills and watermills), although they will of course become necessary in the future in order to tech (say) industrialism and computers. At present it will probably take us 28 turns to finish MM. Then we have to decide where to build the UN. At 1500 hammers, it will take us another ~50 turns even in BC (assuming G hasn't plucked up the courage to capture it by then). And once the UN is built, which resolutions are going to be that helpful? The extra trade route one will help, although will probably help the others more than G. Free Religion may help G for the 10% research bonus - but will lose him any benefit from U Sankore and Spiral Minaret (if he ever captures them...). And I imagine he will already be running U Suff, Free Speech and Emancipation long before we get the UN built. Similarly, although it would be nice for us to get Emancipation and U Suff without having to go through 3 turns of anarchy, I don't think we want to wait ~70-80 turns before getting these civics. (Yes, I know, we might get lucky and pop an engineer to halve the build time of the UN - but we are still looking at 25 turns or so to build it)

So, what should we research instead?

Let's look at the options:
1. Mil Trad (3 turns at 100%): Pros: gets us a kick-ass mounted unit; allows us to build West Point to churn out highly experienced kick-ass cavalry units Cons: dead-end tech; we can't get DPs as we are at war with G; do we really want our focus to be on military right now?
2. Constitution: no need - we can trade for this, which leads to:
2a. Democracy (5t): Pros: allows U Suff (+1 :hammers: from all our towns and allows us to convert gold into production); allows emancipation (faster growth of our cottages etc); we can trade it to allow other civs these civic bonuses; we will need it eventually to avoid the unhappies from not running emancipation; Statue of Lib may be a useful build in the Old World. Cons: dead-end tech
2b. Corporation (3t): Pros: extra trade route (= +10:commerce: per turn in Bibracte alone = 20 beakers or gold); trading it with H decreases his commerce by negating the G Light - but should boost G's commerce when he gets it; allows us to build Wall Street. Cons: we are not ready for Wall Street build yet
3. Communism (4t): Pros: can build Kremlin (so useful in conjunction with USuff); can build SYard and spies; can run State Prop Cons: not enough watermills to make State Prop useful; no need for spies yet
4. Chemistry (3t): Pros: can upgrade beserkers to Grenadiers; necessary for Steel (Ironworks and cannons!), Steam Power (leads to Assembly line for infantry, factories and power plants!) and Biology (increased growth of cities); can build frigates and rule the waves again. Cons: obsoletes the Temple of Artemis (currently worth 20 base commerce - or 40 :gold: per turn); obsoletes the Temple of Artemis (so important I had to put it twice!); do we really want to spend money upgrading our Beserkers to grenadiers?
5. Rep Parts (3t): Pros: necessary for Rifling and Steam Power>Assembly Line; will make H more likley to trade RP with G Cons: no remaining forests or any watermills!

I think on balance I favour (Constitution)>Corporation>Democracy>Rep Parts (maybe trade for this?)>Rifling or Chemistry. It is strong economically and takes us down the route of either Steel>Artillery>Rocketry or Steam Power>Assembly Line

Although men with their hair in braids and wearing skirts were considered quite scary when we first started making Beserkers and kicking Brennus' ass with them, they are in danger of becoming somewhat passe and 'last-year'. I have heard several sniggers from Mehmed and Hannibal about our army and I think we will have to face the fact that they soon will not be as feared as they once were (same goes for our navy). I suggest we beeline to Assembly Line and upgrade our Beserkers to Infantry (rather than wasting money upgrading to rifles/grenadiers and then again to infantry) to make the Vikings again the most feared power in the world (and stop any likelihood of sneaky attacks from Hannibal, Mehmed or Washington)

Reflections on our Research Path
BP's points make a lot of sense. Kind of boils down to how much of a threat the various AIs are right now? Let's not forget that upgrading units isn't our only option. Need be, we can crank out a bunch of grenadiers or whatever. We have a lot of production centers, more than the AIs.

Two points that BP didn't mention:

The Assembly Line path also opens up factories sooner. This raises the question, which takes longer, building all those :hammers: facilities or researching all the space-race techs? In other words, is there any point in G researching space-race techs before he has the factories to build the parts? I don't really know the answers, because I'm not a space-racer. Never done it in CIV... :lol:
THe UN enables the nuclear non-prolif resolution. Nukes would be catastrophic to what we want to achieve in this game.

Big Picture
In addition to what BP mentioned, we have long-term questions. If we want to prioritize Robotics/Space Elevator (perhaps pointless, cuz how will we ever give it to G???), only MM is not on our path.
I'm thinking we have three parallel strategic foci:

Improving the World Economy (which includes fostering peace),
Enabling G's production capacity
Out-teching others and gifting them techs/making techs cheaper for G.


Improving World Economy
The sooner we can build the UN and pass +1 trade routes and all foreign trade routes open, the better for the world economy. Those resolutions only help and do nothing to force G to adopt unwanted civics, right?

Enabling G's Production
THis is the Assembly Line research path and doesn't even require Physics, but the free GS bulbs Chemistry, which is needed.

Out-teching/gifting techs
This seems like a fluid-type strategy. We couldn't have guessed that G would be the only one to go for Chemistry, I would have thought the opposite. Eventually, it may be more in our interest to simply try to stay 1-2 steps ahead of the others and lead them from the front, rather than target a long-range goal.

I played 3 turns as teching Corporation for the extra trade route seemed a no-brainer, and I've uploaded the save to await thoughts on our subsequent direction.
Before Corporation:152462

After Corporation: 152461

H and M also have Corporation (so that should hurt H a bit commerce-wise)
no other new techs
G's maceman continues to play chicken. He is now being surrounded however...

I have started Oxford in Bibracte and the Taj in BC
Needing a bit of blood, I removed G's caravels from our whales in Turfan.... Hope this wasn't a bad move....


We need to decide on the next tech. I am torn between RP and Democracy. I guess the key question is, how soon do we want USuff/Emancipation?

I have moved the GS in the direction of Bibracte, but am still in favour of a Golden Age. Bulbing Chemistry seems a waste (it is only 2 turns at present). I have removed the 2 scientists in MW and added an engineer to maximise our chances of getting something other than a GS.

I played 3 turns as teching Corporation for the extra trade route seemed a no-brainer, and I've uploaded the save to await thoughts on our subsequent direction.
Before Corporation:152462

After Corporation: 152461

H and M also have Corporation (so that should hurt H a bit commerce-wise)
no other new techs
G's maceman continues to play chicken. He is now being surrounded however...

I have started Oxford in Bibracte and the Taj in BC
Needing a bit of blood, I removed G's caravels from our whales in Turfan.... Hope this wasn't a bad move....


We need to decide on the next tech. I am torn between RP and Democracy. I guess the key question is, how soon do we want USuff/Emancipation?

I have moved the GS in the direction of Bibracte, but am still in favour of a Golden Age. Bulbing Chemistry seems a waste (it is only 2 turns at present). I have removed the 2 scientists in MW and added an engineer to maximise our chances of getting something other than a GS.

I still think UN is the priority. Everything else we can trade for. So yes, I think it was a bad move to research Corporation ourselves. In 3 more turns we could have traded for it using Electricity. We should strive to research techs the AI doesn't, and the UN beeline is an excellent example of this.

Bulb Chemistry unless this wastes beakers. Trade it around. With Chemistry+Electricity I would be very surprised if we couldn't get Democracy and RP in trades.

And please, don't kill any more of Gandhis units. It may have unpredictable consequences for his willingness to move troops into our territory...

I will respond tonight with my thoughts. Please wait with play until then, since we all need to agree on the tech path.

I still think UN is the priority. Everything else we can trade for. So yes, I think it was a bad move to research Corporation ourselves. In 3 more turns we could have traded for it using Electricity. We should strive to research techs the AI doesn't, and the UN beeline is an excellent example of this.

Bulb Chemistry unless this wastes beakers. Trade it around. With Chemistry+Electricity I would be very surprised if we couldn't get Democracy and RP in trades.

I completely disagree. Corporation pays for itself in the extra commerce from the extra trade route. Now that 3 civs have it, then H and M will be more willing to trade it with G.

Mehmed has already reached his WFYABTA limit with us so tech trading will be become harder in future and beelin ing techs that the AI don't prioritise will be of less value.

The UN is much too long a build (~50t in BC) unless we get some production infrastructure (factories, rails on mines) going first - and going for techs like Assembly Line will mean G gets these techs quicker and boosts his production quicker.

If we pop a non-GS GP next, then using the GS on a tech that will take 2 turns to research seems a complete waste. The benefits of a 10-turn Golden Age will be much greater

I completely disagree. Corporation pays for itself in the extra commerce from the extra trade route. Now that 3 civs have it, then H and M will be more willing to trade it with G.

It cost us 3 turns at 100% research to get, which delays MM with 6 turns if we need to drop back to 50%. However, it allows us to up our research rate by 10%, so maybe in 30 turns Corp will have payed for itself. But we could surely have traded for before that, so i still think it was a waste.

Mehmed has already reached his WFYABTA limit with us so tech trading will be become harder in future and beelin ing techs that the AI don't prioritise will be of less value.

We can always gift them techs. We don't need factories, only Gandhi does.

The UN is much too long a build (~50t in BC) unless we get some production infrastructure (factories, rails on mines) going first - and going for techs like Assembly Line will mean G gets these techs quicker and boosts his production quicker.

Two solutions off my head.
1. Gift MM to all AIs, increasing the odds that someone has and uses a spare GE.
2. Go US, 0% research and rush buy. If we have biology by then we can probably use the whip as well.

If we pop a non-GS GP next, then using the GS on a tech that will take 2 turns to research seems a complete waste. The benefits of a 10-turn Golden Age will be much greater

2 turns is 2 turns...(Edit: it is almost 3 turns at a sustainable research rate)

Questions

Aren't Golden Ages 8 turns?
Why is our gross income -392:commerce: after Corporation but net income +69:commerce:? :confused:
Does anyone other than G have Chemistry?

Comments

The high price of the UN assumes you have a factory and power plant.
USuff and buying UN is interesting. 2 significant costs: 1) the 5-turn revolt and 2) spending all that cash on UN instead of research. Would this really make a big enough impact on the World economy to warrant all that cash (~15,000:commerce: IIRC)?
Building a factory to hurry the UN build is interesting. Significant delay in starting the build, but may get it finished at the same time anyway.
Don't forget non-G AIs won't trade to anyone unless 2 others know the tech. G and Washington are researching slower than H and M so without our help G will lag behind. We could think about gifting W a city with a strong inner-circle commerce, but we'd have to be careful to give him one he could culturally control.
Similarly, G won't trade a tech as long as he has a monopoly on it, so he may occasionally need our help in that way too.
Tech Path Rationales

Non-optimal rationales for researching a tech include: 1) it will help (only) us and 2) we can trade it for a tech we want. I mean non-optimal for this unique game scenario, of course. These are classically optimal rationales.
Optimal rationales include: 1) What will make non-G AIs trade to G, 2) What will make G trade his techs, 3) What will help world economy, 4) What will help G's economy, 5) What will help G's production, 6) What will prevent catastrophes--war and nukes--and promote peace. 1 and 2 will fall away in the Modern Age. 3, 4 ,5, 6 will be useful to the end of the game.

My Initial Take on All This
I think we're at a very important crossroads and it behooves us to think this through carefully. If we can come up with a set of the highest-order priorities, the optimum research path should shake out.
Principle: Right now AIs are still trading, so we now have a finite window of opportunity to accelarate G's tech rate in that manner.
Principle: We don't want H and M to acquire a position of significant military superiority.
Deadline: We want to pass the nuclear non-prolif resolution before anyone techs nukes (Rocketry?).
Bottom Line:
In terms of getting good trade value, helping G most right now, providing military security and optimizing the building and/or buying of the UN, my gut feeling is that our most logical path is straight to Assembly Line, then straight to Mass Media. That way we keep G teched up, keep the world stable and build the appropriate factory in time for the building of the UN. Railroads involve too many additional techs and de-rail the UN for too long a time.

Going straight for MM is a type of gambit that would almost surely pay off if we had a GE in our back pocket, but since we don't, I think we might want to somehow determine what the real benefit would be to the world economy before embarking on this.

Note on speeding up Oxford
:hammers: overflow from poprushing Theater, Stables, and Hindu Temple, (not barracks) will drastically speed up Oxford. I recommend doing it this way:


Set build to Oxford.
Grow population until the 2nd coastal citizen is soon to be born (~2-3t before).
Set build to Theater AND switch citizens from mines to coastal=>Make sure the production will be 7:hammers: or less (I'm assuming that we get 45*50%=67:hammers: from each citizen poprushed. If it's 45*50%=68:hammers:, then it shou