I played basically to the end of 1250 AD but did not hit <enter>.

Gnejs' Turn Zero

Economics is done, next tech?
MW now contains a GM and a GS!!! Where to put the GS? Where to cash in on the GM?


Notes

Forbidden Palace in 3 turns!!!
We have a cease fire with Isabella and we need to keep an eye on Murcia to make sure Mehmed doesn't attack it.
Hinduism has spread to MW, Karak, Besh, and Madrid. Two more Hindu Misses are in production, the next should go to Brown City according to Big Brown Pig.
Judaism has spread to MW, but upon reflection, I don't see any need to spread it at all, because G has no Shrine and when he goes FR, he won't be able to see into our cities anymore anyway, right?
Four cities are currently building universities and Vienne should start one soon. The sixth will be built in Madrid. No urgency to poprush these buildings before Madrid is ready. (I assume the University of Sankore doesn't count?)

Happy Building, Gnejs!!!

I played basically to the end of 1250 AD but did not hit <enter>.

Gnejs' Turn Zero

Economics is done, next tech? We should look at the options and try to pick one that we should have a monopoly on for maximum trading benefit EDIT: Nationalism>Constitution might be a good direction
MW now contains a GM and a GS!!! Where to put the GS? Probably best in Madrid (our Oxford city) rather than in any of the Old World cities if our plan is to try to drive the tech rate.Where to cash in on the GM? There is a way to assess which city has the greatest trade route benefit - can anyone throw any light on this. Carthage is probably a good bet


Notes

Forbidden Palace in 3 turns!!!
We have a cease fire with Isabella and we need to keep an eye on Murcia to make sure Mehmed doesn't attack it.
Hinduism has spread to MW, Karak, Besh, and Madrid. Two more Hindu Misses are in production, the next should go to Brown City according to Big Brown Pig. Don't forget to spread it in our New World cities such as Madrid too
Judaism has spread to MW, but upon reflection, I don't see any need to spread it at all, because G has no Shrine and when he goes FR, he won't be able to see into our cities anymore anyway, right? Might be good to spread it to at least 1 New World city. Then, if G ever does build the shrine, we can disseminate it more easily
Four cities are currently building universities and Vienne should start one soon. The sixth will be built in Madrid. No urgency to poprush these buildings before Madrid is ready. (I assume the University of Sankore doesn't count?)

Happy Building, Gnejs!!!

We still need to agree on a strategy of what to do with Isa and Brennus. Even if we agree to keep them alive in order to feed them choice techs for trading, I think we want to eliminate Brennus' current capital in order to be able to benefit from settling Vienne East

Guys, I hate to deeply disappoint you, but I'm going to Greece for six days on a jpc skiing trip. ;)

Here are my thoughts for our current direction and micromanagement.

Hindu Misses
I think we should keep spamming Hindu Misses (in CC, the Far Western Brennus city and hopefully BC, whenever possible). They greatly increase our production--like really cheap forges. Good targets would be BC, OS, GC, Turfan, MC, NS, and all the Isa cities. Don't forget to start a new Missionary build when you use one up (just interrupt the other builds in CC...etc.) I waited 1 turn in Madrid to poprush the granary and because the Hindu Miss worked, we scored an extra 22 :hammers:!

Poprushing
I think we should follow the Obormot Plan: We only poprush excess population--not population that's working special resources or useful tiles like high-production mines. A good example is the Brennus city Verlanium. It has no food resources, so we really don't want to poprush there until we can work the mine and all five farms, and then poprush when we have couple extra citizens (or about to grow to the 2nd). Turfan is another good example: it should be be growing to size 7 to poprush for 2 pops or to size 8 for 3 pops.

Micromanagement Planning

In Madrid, when the borders expand, I think we should turn the windmills into mines. We have plenty of new wkrs to do this.
Karak doesn't need any farms--turn everything into cottages (except resource tiles, of course).
BC should work all the mines and add farms for growth. No point in poprushing here at all.

Warring
Contrary to Erkon's predilection for DOWing Hannibal and Mehmed, I think we want to create world peace now. Hannibal won't trade peace with Washington for Economics and I couldn't can't try asking him to give to us now (he's suddenly pleased with us) EDIT: but Gnejs can try on Turn Zero, of course.

In fact, I recommend we researech Liberalism next and hope G's able to trade it for something. If not, we should quickly gift to everyone and hope for FR revolts. That will expedite world peace.

In the war between H and W, they have been pillaging each other's tiles. Not what we want.

Probably best in Madrid (our Oxford city) rather than in any of the Old World cities if our plan is to try to drive the tech rate.

Hinduism has spread to MW, Karak, Besh, and Madrid. Two more Hindu Misses are in production, the next should go to Brown City according to Big Brown Pig. Don't forget to spread it in our New World cities such as Madrid too ;)

We still need to agree on a strategy of what to do with Isa and Brennus. Even if we agree to keep them alive in order to feed them choice techs for trading, I think we want to eliminate Brennus' current capital in order to be able to benefit from settling Vienne EastThat reminds me: Atlanta has fallen to Hannibal, but he retreated (temporarily?) to handle a Washington counterattack.

I didn't settle Vienne East yet, because of the massive maintenance it will bring before the FP is completed.

My only concern with capturing Brennus' current capital is the massive WW we will re-trigger for the ensuing 10 turns. If we wait some time and let Vienne East develop (it still has rice to the S and some nice river tiles), the potential WW will have dissipated significantly, so that later on, when it's necessary to expand the VE borders, we can do it at less cost.

EDIT: Oh yeah, on the GS, Madrid already has an Academy :banana:. I recommend Karak over Bibracte for two reasons: 1) Karak is an economic powerhouse in its own right and 2) we'd still rather G get it if at all possible.

I want us to attack Delhi with LBM.

I thought the discount was depending on the number of alive AI, but after reading the post, I think we should let Isa live. But I think we should raze Brennus capital, because we cannot out-culture his palace.

One last detail: I traded maps to Mehmed and Hannibal because it occurred to me that G's galleon might be for delivering a settler to some far-away land...and I was in hopes that G would find out there aren't any.

Didn't sell Washington maps for his 140:commerce: in case he needed it for upgrades...

I want us to attack Delhi with LBM. Which reminds me: there is an explorer in the galleon just S of G that should be kamikazied at G...

I thought the discount was depending on the number of alive AI, but after reading the post, I think we should let Isa live. But I think we should raze Brennus capital, because we cannot out-culture his palace.Why raze it? Why not keep it? The silver will be useful for happiness, no?

Guys, I hate to deeply disappoint you, but I'm going to Greece for six days on a jpc skiing trip. ;)



Yippieeee! :woohoo: [party] :band: :high5:


...err, LC, you still here? Err, just happy that it is finally my turn... ;)

Which reminds me: "Got it!"

Yippieeee! :woohoo: [party] :band: :high5:


...err, LC, you still here? Err, just happy that it is finally my turn... ;)

Which reminds me: "Got it!"Altho' you may fuind it dull to micromanage please try to think through all your decisions and try to check each city on a regular basis to optimize builds, growth, specialists etc and each AI to optimize diplomacy (your 10 turns will feel longer that way.....:) )May your turnset be a looooooong one... :lol: waster

Here are my thoughts for our current direction and micromanagement.

Hindu Misses
I think we should keep spamming Hindu Misses (in CC, the Far Western Brennus city and hopefully BC, whenever possible). They greatly increase our production--like really cheap forges. Good targets would be BC, OS, GC, Turfan, MC, NS, and all the Isa cities. Don't forget to start a new Missionary build when you use one up (just interrupt the other builds in CC...etc.) I waited 1 turn in Madrid to poprush the granary and because the Hindu Miss worked, we scored an extra 22 :hammers:!

Poprushing
I think we should follow the Obormot Plan: We only poprush excess population--not population that's working special resources or useful tiles like high-production mines. A good example is the Brennus city Verlanium. It has no food resources, so we really don't want to poprush there until we can work the mine and all five farms, and then poprush when we have couple extra citizens (or about to grow to the 2nd). Turfan is another good example: it should be be growing to size 7 to poprush for 2 pops or to size 8 for 3 pops.

Micromanagement Planning

In Madrid, when the borders expand, I think we should turn the windmills into mines. We have plenty of new wkrs to do this.
Karak doesn't need any farms--turn everything into cottages (except resource tiles, of course).
BC should work all the mines and add farms for growth. No point in poprushing here at all.

Warring
Contrary to Erkon's predilection for DOWing Hannibal and Mehmed, I think we want to create world peace now. Hannibal won't trade peace with Washington for Economics and I couldn't can't try asking him to give to us now (he's suddenly pleased with us) EDIT: but Gnejs can try on Turn Zero, of course.

In fact, I recommend we researech Liberalism next and hope G's able to trade it for something. If not, we should quickly gift to everyone and hope for FR revolts. That will expedite world peace.

In the war between H and W, they have been pillaging each other's tiles. Not what we want.

Missionary spamming is good, helps both our economy and our production.

We now have economics, how about a switch to free market once we complete UoS and FP? It costs us three turns of anarchy, but in the long run I guess it is worth it.

Toledo looks pretty worthless. We could gift it to Washington (safe haven if Hannibal is too successful), or to either Isabella or Brennus so we can remove their cities further north.

We could bulb most of printing press with our scientist. We are working around 50 villages and towns right now so that is +50 commerce (x bonuses). Combine this with free market and forgotten palace and we should be back in business again.

Long term, if free religion is not a hit with any of the other civs, we could aim for UN and force them to adopt it.

Toledo looks pretty worthless. We could gift it to Washington (safe haven if Hannibal is too successful), or to either Isabella or Brennus so we can remove their cities further north. Toledo has granary and trading post, so it should pay for itself, but we could keep in our pocket as a survival kit for any AI on its deathbed.

We now have economics, how about a switch to free market once we complete UoS and FP? It costs us three turns of anarchy, but in the long run I guess it is worth it. We might get about +45:commerce:/t and a third of that is in Bibracte until Artemis expires. Problem is, we only have trade routes with Mehmed. Washington and H are running Merc. Closed borders with G, Isa, Brennus.

We could bulb most of printing press with our scientist. We are working around 50 villages and towns right now so that is +50 commerce (x bonuses). Combine this with free market and forgotten palace and we should be back in business again.Lightbulbing
Might be a good way for us because we can't run a high research % with so many cities. Right now, an Academy in Karak nets us about 9:science:/t at 30% research, 15/t at 50%, in any case about 4% of our current research total.

The ~3100:science: lightbulb is something like 1-1.5% of all the research we still need to do, so in theory, it would seem that 4% is better than 1.5%. Furthermore, we want to ask are we bulbing a tech others would otherwise research for us? Or: Will Printing Press now give us some sort of significant strategic advantage?

Civics I go on vacation and the peasants immediately want to revolt...
Revolts are very expensive now. 1 or 2 civics = 3 turns. 3 civics = 4 turns. We need to think long-term, what civics do we want to have?

Slavery and Org Rel are very useful to us now.
We could switch to Bureaucracy and Free Market now or wait for Liberalism and switch to Free Speech and Free Market.
We should plan on being forced to switch to Emancipation in about 30-50t and plan on making any other switches we want at that time (Representation/UnivSuff? FR/Pacifism?).


United Nations
Actually has a number of useful resolutions, in particular, Open Markets (trade routes with everyone) and Single Currency (+1 trade route).

Does anyone know if enacting a civic resolution causes an immediate 4-5t (Modern Age) revolt? If so, that sucks big time.

Trading Economics

Food for thought

We can trade Washington Economics for Divine Right, making Nationalism cheaper.
Hannibal's favorite civic is Free Market.
If Washington suddenly has Economics, Hannibal might offer Wash peace in return for Economics.
Hannibal then switches from Merc to Free Market
We suddenly have several more international trade routes
Gnejs suddenly looks like a genius for once for wanting to switch to Free Market.
We research Liberalism so G's willing to trade it to others for Economics. Voila!

Toledo has very few workable tiles as some overlap with the next city some are under turkish culture. I don't see how it will be contributing anything. On the other hand, we can spread judaism there (does it have religion already?), gift it to, say, brennus, raze his northern cities, and demand peace in exchange for him converting to judaism. Voila, we have set up a "new" GK-like trading partner for Gandhi, while at the same time solving the city placement dilemma with Vienne E.
Similarily, we could settle a city on the home continent for Isabella. Perhaps landlocked with no open borders with us... :D

Lightbulbing
Might be a good way for us because we can't run a high research % with so many cities. Right now, an Academy in Karak nets us about 9:science:/t at 30% research, 15/t at 50%, in any case about 4% of our current research total.

The ~3100:science: lightbulb is something like 1-1.5% of all the research we still need to do, so in theory, it would seem that 4% is better than 1.5%. Furthermore, we want to ask are we bulbing a tech others would otherwise research for us? Or: Will Printing Press now give us some sort of significant strategic advantage?


Lightbulbing gives the whole benefit now, both for us and for the AIs that we can immediately trade the tech with. Even if an academy gives double the amount of beakers some of those beakers will come when the AIs have entered "space race mode" and we won't be able to trade them efficiently.


Civics I go on vacation and the peasants immediately want to revolt...
Revolts are very expensive now. 1 or 2 civics = 3 turns. 3 civics = 4 turns. We need to think long-term, what civics do we want to have?

Slavery and Org Rel are very useful to us now.
We could switch to Bureaucracy and Free Market now or wait for Liberalism and switch to Free Speech and Free Market.
We should plan on being forced to switch to Emancipation in about 30-50t and plan on making any other switches we want at that time (Representation/UnivSuff? FR/Pacifism?).


United Nations
Actually has a number of useful resolutions, in particular, Open Markets (trade routes with everyone) and Single Currency (+1 trade route).

Does anyone know if enacting a civic resolution causes an immediate 4-5t (Modern Age) revolt? If so, that sucks big time.

No revolts from UN-imposed civic changes. Don't forget the Free Religion resolution... :)

I think a UN-beeline is a good strategy. We need the following techs:
Printing Press->SciMet->Physics->Electricity->Radio->MM

Also speaks for bulbing PP now.

Trading Economics

Food for thought

We can trade Washington Economics for Divine Right, making Nationalism cheaper.
Hannibal's favorite civic is Free Market.
If Washington suddenly has Economics, Hannibal might offer Wash peace in return for Economics.
Hannibal then switches from Merc to Free Market
We suddenly have several more international trade routes
Gnejs suddenly looks like a genius for once for wanting to switch to Free Market.
We research Liberalism so G's willing to trade it to others for Economics. Voila!



Sounds good all of it, except maybe PP before Lib. Again, since we are the biggest civ I believe we are the ones that gain the least from Free Market, but we should keep in mind that what is good for the other AIs helps us "win" this game.

We will also be able to open or close our borders to certain civs to influence their research rate...

Lightbulbing gives the whole benefit now, both for us and for the AIs that we can immediately trade the tech with. Even if an academy gives double the amount of beakers some of those beakers will come when the AIs have entered "space race mode" and we won't be able to trade them efficiently. Good point. The Academy is most effective after the Space Race has officially begun. No doubt we'll pop another GS or two...

Toledo has very few workable tiles as some overlap with the next city some are under turkish culture. I'm agreeing with you, in that we can give it away, but not until it is a strategic giveaway, as you propose with Brennus, rather than just a giveaway to get rid of a useless city. Voila, we have set up a "new" GK-like trading partner for Gandhi, while at the same time solving the city placement dilemma with Vienne E. Right.
Similarily, we could settle a city on the home continent for Isabella. Perhaps landlocked with no open borders with us... :D Yes.

No revolts from UN-imposed civic changes. Don't forget the Free Religion resolution... :) Supercool. Of course, the FR resolution also stops us from getting the Org Rel 25% prod bonus...

I think a UN-beeline is a good strategy. We need the following techs:
Printing Press->SciMet->Physics->Electricity->Radio->MM Sounds good, but I think we'd be smart to squeeze in Liberalism right after PP. The sooner we can lessen the warmongering angst of Hannibal and Mehmed, the better.

Also speaks for bulbing PP now.

Sounds good all of it, except maybe PP before Lib. Right, I was thinking in addition to your PP idea, if we go that way, because it's only about 2 turns or so anyway, right? Again, since we are the biggest civ I believe we are the ones that gain the least from Free Market, but we should keep in mind that what is good for the other AIs helps us "win" this game. Absolutely. World-peacemonger, world-commercemonger, etc. All works together to our goal.

We will also be able to open or close our borders to certain civs to influence their research rate...

Sounds good to me. Whatever we do, I think we need to decide on a clear research strategy and follow it. We don't want to bob around on the research chart like an inebriated cork on the ocean. Electricity is on our path to Industrialism, Radio on our path to Robotics, so that's all good. Sounds like maybe a winner to me.

We need to bear in mind that we want to cultivate good relations if we expect to get elected as the UN General. G might vote for our resolutions, but he obviously won't vote for us.

BTW, Gnejs, congratulations on your fastest Conquest award! :goodjob:

Odd how silent Erkon has been recently...

BTW, Gnejs, congratulations on your fastest Conquest award! :goodjob:

Odd how silent Erkon has been recently...

Thanks. :D


Edit: Don't worry about Erkon, he will soon be his usual obnoxious self. The b*d beat me by one turn in WOTM8. :aargh:

...
We need to bear in mind that we want to cultivate good relations if we expect to get elected as the UN General. G might vote for our resolutions, but he obviously won't vote for us.

It doesn't really matter who the GS is, as long as he put up votes for the civics we want :)

I've been silent since I don't have much more to contribute. UN is fine, although I doubt we need it to force civics. Anything that helps Gandhi is fine with me. How about an amphibious assault against Delhi with LBM? :D :D :D

Ok, it seems like I could start playing tonight. One thing though: the great merchant. Is there a way to find out the yield from sending him to different places?

Ok, it seems like I could start playing tonight. One thing though: the great merchant. Is there a way to find out the yield from sending him to different places?I think it's supposed to be a big, faraway city. You could start in Carthage, check the price, move on to America, then finally, Mehmed Land. There's no huge hurry anyway, right? Give or take a turn. The amount of cash you'll get is shown when you're in the city and you hover over that option, of course.

One thing I don't know is whether that AI being in Mercantilism affects the value. Be sure to check the value at Mehmed, just in case.

EDIT: Just don't cash it in during a revolt. Never tried it, but it'd be a shame if something weird happened.

I think it's supposed to be a big, faraway city. You could start in Carthage, check the price, move on to America, then finally, Mehmed Land. There's no huge hurry anyway, right? Give or take a turn. The amount of cash you'll get is shown when you're in the city and you hover over that option, of course.

One thing I don't know is whether that AI being in Mercantilism affects the value. Be sure to check the value at Mehmed, just in case.

EDIT: Just don't cash it in during a revolt. Never tried it, but it'd be a shame if something weird happened.

Did some searching: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=159047

Gold = S * (500 + (200 * T)), where S is the game speed modifier (150% on Epic) and T is the value of a regular trade route that would appear on the target city's screen were it trading with your capital.

...and...

The basic Formula for the value of a Trade route seems to be

[(1+F)*(5*(Pop-10))+100+Cap)* (Minimum ([T*50%], [D*50%]))*20%/100]

My edit for D*50% for a normal-sized map

F is 150% (1.5) if it is a Foreign Trade Route, 0 if domestic
Pop is the Pop of the city Getting the trade route
T is the Pop of the City the Trade Route is With
D is the Distance to the City
Cap is 25 if one of the cities is a Capital, 0 if not
[] indicates rounding down

So the minimum of T*50% and D*50% determines the trade mission yield, since all other things will be equal. I will check the distances and sizes involved.

Edit: Hang on, it is the target city's trade route yield. Doh. I give up.

So the minimum of T*50% and D*50% determines the trade mission yield, since all other things will be equal. I will check the distances and sizes involved.

Edit: Hang on, it is the target city's trade route yield. Doh. I give up.
How do you determine D, anyway?

Anyway, the easiest will be to ship him across with the galleon that's got the Explorer up W of CC and see what values you get in the various capitals. I suspect the best will be Mehmed, although I haven't checked the save carefully. Forget who's got the biggest city.

BTW, don't poprush Sankore right befrore doing this... :blush:

Bottom line, we're getting a raw deal because MW's population is so low. If we saved it for MW's pop to grow, we'd get more.

...
F is 150% (1.5) if it is a Foreign Trade Route, 0 if domestic
...


This indicates that Mercantilism reduces the profit by *alot* (40% compared to 100% with non-mercantilism). We could actually save him until we get a better deal.

What we want is that the city we send the GM to is a capital far away from our capital, and that our capital is large. It's perhaps best to move him around and take notes on the expected reward.

How do you determine D, anyway?

Anyway, the easiest will be to ship him across with the galleon that's got the Explorer up W of CC and see what values you get in the various capitals. I suspect the best will be Mehmed, although I haven't checked the save carefully. Forget who's got the biggest city.

BTW, don't poprush Sankore right befrore doing this... :blush:

Think D=1.5 for each diagonal move and D=1 for each EWNS move. As I read it, when the distance is larger than our capitals population (likely here) then the distance does not matter. Only the population of the other city matters.

So, I find the biggest city, use the pigs in MW for max growth until the GM arrives, and then we earn a few coins. :)

Is it worth it to milk MW? Say we find a size 20 city to burn the GM in. Then the trade route yield is

[(1+1.5)*(5*(20-10))+100+25)* (Minimum ([T*50%], [D*50%]))*20%/100]

(2.5*(50+100+25)*(MWpop*0.5*0.2)/100

437.5*MWpow*0.1/100
0.4375*MWpop

Then T times 300 gold + 750 gold

750 + 300*0.4375*MWpop


Each pop point in MW gives us 131 gold, if I have calculated correctly.

This indicates that Mercantilism reduces the profit by *alot* (40% compared to 100% with non-mercantilism). We could actually save him until we get a better deal.


I don't think Mercantilism matters. The yield is based not based on trade route income but on potential trade route income if the cities had a trade route.

But I will check the yield in a couple of places to see if the calculations are correct.

Each pop point in MW gives us 131 gold, if I have calculated correctly. Well, for starters, unless I'm reading it backwards, because of rounding Minimum ([T*50%], where T is MW's pop, the only pop difference that counts is even changes, ie., pop 14, 16, 18, 20 (now MW is 12).

Right now I'm getting Trade Route value for Istanbul (pop23) 5 and our bonanza = 1500:commerce:. Did I do that right?

EDIT: Oops, forgot the 150% for epic.... 2250 :commerce:

EDIT1:

Okay, the way I see (may be wrong, because I'm in a hurry to pack now):

MW pop12 -> Istanbul Trade route 5
pop14 -> 6 >> 2550:commerce:
pop16 -> 7 >> 2850:commerce:
pop18 -> 8 >> 3150:commerce:
pop20 -> 9 >> 3450:commerce:

EDIT2:
Assuming we use the pigs and finish Sankore, then work only food tiles BUT still hire 2 scientists the entire time (which I think is imperative), we grow 2 pop-points in MW every 7 turns.

And now I say GOOD BYE and GOOD LUCK!!!

Assuming we use the pigs and finish Sankore, then work only food tiles BUT still hire 2 scientists the entire time (which I think is imperative), we grow 2 pop-points in MW every 7 turns.

And now I say GOOD BYE and GOOD LUCK!!!

Now stop MM-ing and go away and enjoy on your trip. :)

LC - have a nice trip!

Started playing, on first turn.

Hannibal will make peace with Washington for Divine Right + Printing Press. Should I ask him to?

Check out Gandhi, the little warmongerer! I think we can expect an invasion soon! :)

151998

Stopped on turn four and uploaded the save. There are plenty of things happening with the other AIs, and we need to find a good strategy to deal with that.

Brief summary

Turn 0 (1250):
Lightbulb Printing Press
Trade Economics to Washington for Divine Right + map

Turn 1 (1256):
Hannibal asks for help against Washington, answer is no. Relation drops to cautious. Hannibal will make peace for DR+PP (or Economics+DR).
PP done, switch to Lib.

Turn 2 (1262):
Brennus becomes a vassal to Mehmed, now at war with Isabella. Brennus culture bombs(?), we lose Vienne pigs + Vienne E tile due to cultural expansion.
Hannibal has Liberalism.
Give Mehmed DR for peace with Isabella. All is calm on new continent again (except Hannibal vs Washington).

Turn 3 (1268):
Forgotten Palace done.
Gandhi has Longbow+settler N brown city

Turn 4 (1274):
Gandhi settles N of Brown city.
Washington asks for help against Hannibal, I decline.
Mehmed+Brennus declares war on Washington!

This is where I stop. Unless we do something very soon, Washington will be removed from power. We can bribe both Mehmed and Hannibal with Economics (+DR). Liberalism is due in three turns, after that we can gift it around (and at the same time adopt Free Speech + Free Market). This might help calm down the feelings a little. Other ideas?

We will also be able to open or close our borders to certain civs to influence their research rate...

Open borders does not affect the ability to have trade routes with an AI - only mercantilism and the connection of a trade network (ie a road +/or sea connection between capitals)

Well done so far Gnejs. The combination of Printing Press and Forbidden Palace has given our economy and our tech rate a much needed boost.

I have a bunch of (mainly minor) points from the current save:

As H already has Liberalism, we no longer need it for G to be able to trade it. However, it will of course be useful to get Free Speech (+ Free Trade I guess)
We should maximise our gpt income from our various resource deals
With Univ Sankore, we should take advantage and build some Hindu buildings (esp monasteries) in our research centres such as CC, Madrid, Karak and Bibracte (although 2 beakers per turn is small beer...)
If G goes for Free Religion (and he probably will soon) then the Spiral Minaret (and U Sankore) bwill be useless to him. Perhaps it would be better to pre-build the Spiral Minaret rather than completing it and cash it in for gold?
There is no great rush for HE in Vienne - there is no need to starve the city to work high production tiles
Verlamion has poor production - does it really need a forge?
Verlamion is currently undefended. It is nowhere near it happiness cap, but we should remember to send a unit there
Why are Bibracte and Karak running an engineer - wouldn't it be better to maximise growth and commerce?
CC would benefit from a bank or a Univ; MW would benefit from a forge or observatory; Stone Island needs a trading post rather than a theatre


Which tech path do we take next? Do we want the long slog to Mass Media for an early UN? Do we want early corporation (+Wall Street) and democracy (for emancipation and rapid town growth). Do we want early Assembly Line for killer production?

Washington is the best trading partner of G - therefore I guess it is in our interst to keep him as strong as possible (although we could of course just drip-feed him techs to trade with G...).

It might be a good time to DOW Brennus and take out his capital and Mehmed's cities of Gazientep and Dyanbakir. Mehmed doesn't yet have Astro so we can stop any naval transport of units and our Beserker army should be able to cope with any threat from him while a small contingent deals with Brennus's capital and Mehmed's outlying cities. It will also distract M from his war with W. I think there is a danger of Isa vassalising to M soon

EDIT: Make sure you have cashed in the GM first....

I am unkeen to give away our techs for peace with W, but you should do so if W looks in danger of losing more cities. Try to trade Gunpowder with H as soon as we can.

By coincidence I am also away tomorrow for a week 'skiing' (in Lanzarote). I hate to imagine the carnage that LC and I will return to after the 2 supreme warmongers have been allowed free rein for a week

Started playing, on first turn.

Hannibal will make peace with Washington for Divine Right + Printing Press. Should I ask him to?

Check out Gandhi, the little warmongerer! I think we can expect an invasion soon! :)

151998

Haha, this is going to be great! Our 1st step to victory takes place on the same day that LC runs for the hills! ... or takes a vacation in the mountains...

That'd be an ironic coincidence, or is it? :mischief:

By coincidence I am also away tomorrow for a week 'skiing' (in Lanzarote). I hate to imagine the carnage that LC and I will return to after the 2 supreme warmongers have been allowed free rein for a week

My set is after this one, but I'm a horrible warmongerer, :sad:

My set is after this one, but I'm a horrible warmongerer, :sad:

That's allright JERFit! Let's push through some very speedy turnsets, and exploit our freedom!

Speeking of exploits, what if we whip CC, BC and GC to one pop, gift them to Mehmed, and the attack them? Will they be destroyed? If so, we give Gandhi more space to expand (since he refuses to capture them) :confused:

Stopped on turn four
...
We can bribe both Mehmed and Hannibal with Economics (+DR). Liberalism is due in three turns, after that we can gift it around (and at the same time adopt Free Speech + Free Market). This might help calm down the feelings a little. Other ideas?

Why did you stop? Bribe H to peace, DoW on Mehmed and Kill'em All!!! :aargh: :aargh:

That's allright JERFit! Let's push through some very speedy turnsets, and exploit our freedom!

Speeking of exploits, what if we whip CC, BC and GC to one pop, gift them to Mehmed, and the attack them? Will they be destroyed? If so, we give Gandhi more space to expand (since he refuses to capture them) :confused:
:thumbdown
No - they will not be destroyed!. This is a BAD IDEA!!! Do not do it!!

Why did you stop? Bribe H to peace, DoW on Mehmed and Kill'em All!!! :aargh: :aargh:

If you are going to DOW, DOW on Brennus instead. It has the same overall effect but gets us only -1 rather than -3 with Mehmed.

It might be best if you didn't destroy everyone.....

If you plan to tech Sci Method next it is very important to build a couple of New World monasteries first (preferably at least 1 Hindu, Buddhist and Jewish one) so we can continue to build missionaries. Once we get Sci Meth, we can no longer build monasteries - and can no longer build missionaries *if* we switch away from Org Rel (maybe we won't want to.....). Hinduism should be spread to every city in the world - each extra Hindu city will be worth 3gpt once we get Wall Street in Bibracte

My set is after this one, but I'm a horrible warmongerer, :sad:

@JERFit: we are relying on you as the sole remaining voice of reason to keep the warmongering tendencies of Erkon and Gnejs in check for the next week.

Well done so far Gnejs. The combination of Printing Press and Forbidden Palace has given our economy and our tech rate a much needed boost.

I have a bunch of (mainly minor) points from the current save:

As H already has Liberalism, we no longer need it for G to be able to trade it. However, it will of course be useful to get Free Speech (+ Free Trade I guess)
We should maximise our gpt income from our various resource deals
With Univ Sankore, we should take advantage and build some Hindu buildings (esp monasteries) in our research centres such as CC, Madrid, Karak and Bibracte (although 2 beakers per turn is small beer...)
If G goes for Free Religion (and he probably will soon) then the Spiral Minaret (and U Sankore) bwill be useless to him. Perhaps it would be better to pre-build the Spiral Minaret rather than completing it and cash it in for gold?
There is no great rush for HE in Vienne - there is no need to starve the city to work high production tiles
Verlamion has poor production - does it really need a forge?
Verlamion is currently undefended. It is nowhere near it happiness cap, but we should remember to send a unit there
Why are Bibracte and Karak running an engineer - wouldn't it be better to maximise growth and commerce?
CC would benefit from a bank or a Univ; MW would benefit from a forge or observatory; Stone Island needs a trading post rather than a theatre


Which tech path do we take next? Do we want the long slog to Mass Media for an early UN? Do we want early corporation (+Wall Street) and democracy (for emancipation and rapid town growth). Do we want early Assembly Line for killer production?

Yes I saw that with Lib, but it seemed worthwhile to finish it ourselves anyway. Not the least for making the double civic change possible in three turns.

If Gandhi had wanted to have Free Religion he would have changed already. He is running Theocracy, and I guess that will remain as long as he is at war...

I started HE in Vienne mainly for the culture (!). We need to push back the borders to grab the pigs again, unless we want to go to war.

For some reason, Hannibal is not settling (yet) next to stone island, so I wanted to expand our cultural border before he changes his mind. Besides, it helps us get closer to enabling the globe theatre (not sure how useful that is though).

Will have a look at the engineers.

Washington is the best trading partner of G - therefore I guess it is in our interst to keep him as strong as possible (although we could of course just drip-feed him techs to trade with G...).

It might be a good time to DOW Brennus and take out his capital and Mehmed's cities of Gazientep and Dyanbakir. Mehmed doesn't yet have Astro so we can stop any naval transport of units and our Beserker army should be able to cope with any threat from him while a small contingent deals with Brennus's capital and Mehmed's outlying cities. It will also distract M from his war with W. I think there is a danger of Isa vassalising to M soon

EDIT: Make sure you have cashed in the GM first....

I am unkeen to give away our techs for peace with W, but you should do so if W looks in danger of losing more cities. Try to trade Gunpowder with H as soon as we can.

Now who is the warmongerer? :)

W is in great peril. The stack that Hannibal has in Atlanta could in competent hands take Washington (the capital) in 4-5 turns. I don't know how it looks on the Mehmed front, but I imagine W is terrified right now. :)

I don't see a big problem with giving away some economic techs, especially since this will help our economy as well. How about I buy peace for W with Economics+DR now, and give W Lib before the peace treaty ends? Then he might well switch to FR since he just lost his double holy city...

My set is after this one, but I'm a horrible warmongerer, :sad:

That's great, because we should focus on world peace now. Besides, I am also a horrible warmongerer. For my enemies that is... ;)

Why did you stop? Bribe H to peace, DoW on Mehmed and Kill'em All!!! :aargh: :aargh:

Because it was late at night and I ran out of time. Besides, Kill'em All doesn't seem the right way to go.

If you plan to tech Sci Method next it is very important to build a couple of New World monasteries first (preferably at least 1 Hindu, Buddhist and Jewish one) so we can continue to build missionaries. Once we get Sci Meth, we can no longer build monasteries - and can no longer build missionaries *if* we switch away from Org Rel (maybe we won't want to.....). Hinduism should be spread to every city in the world - each extra Hindu city will be worth 3gpt once we get Wall Street in Bibracte

Agreed on all points. But we should stay in Org Rel for a while, right? We don't need the improved relations, that is for Gandhi and Wash.

Haha, this is going to be great! Our 1st step to victory takes place on the same day that LC runs for the hills! ... or takes a vacation in the mountains...

That'd be an ironic coincidence, or is it? :mischief:With my brand-new private satelite, JERFit, I can see right into your bedroom. Wipe that ice cream off your nose...


I have a bunch of (mainly minor) points from the current save:

Verlamion has poor production - does it really need a forge?
We need research buildings here so with a hindu miss and a forge, poprushing will score a lot more hammers, but first we need to get all the farms working and then a couple citizens...

SImilarly in Madrid, I set it to forge after the granary, because we can poprush forge and university for full value, but not Oxford, so Oxford will get produced faster with the Hindu miss and forge +50%. My calcs show that we basically get teh forge for free that way.

How about I buy peace for W with Economics+DR now, and give W Lib before the peace treaty ends? Then he might well switch to FR since he just lost his double holy city...
Yes, bribe everyone for peace, spread Liberalism around. We need peace.

By the way, with my new satelite I can see everything but the save...anyway...on teh idea of free trade and all those trade routes, won't G be in the same boat as us? He also can't benefit from foreign trade routes with us...

Unless of course with that UN Resolution that makes all nations have foreign trade routes....:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: (Better check with Gyathaar if that might violate the spirit of being at permanent war with G...)

IDEA for Vienne: Build Vienne W instead of worrying about Brennus. It's better for HE anyway. (:lol: I know you're not going to, but it's still fun to throw some outrageous ideas at you while I sit back in my baech lounge chair and drink martinis...)

Oh Sh.t, my satelite signal is fad........

With my brand-new private satelite, JERFit, I can see right into your bedroom. Wipe that ice cream off your nose...




Yes, bribe everyone for peace, spread Liberalism around. We need peace.

By the way, with my new satelite I can see everything but the save...anyway...on teh idea of free trade and all those trade routes, won't G be in the same boat as us? He also can't benefit from foreign trade routes with us...

Unless of course with that UN Resolution that makes all nations have foreign trade routes....:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: (Better check with Gyathaar if that might violate the spirit of being at permanent war with G...)

IDEA for Vienne: Build Vienne W instead of worrying about Brennus. It's better for HE anyway. (:lol: I know you're not going to, but it's still fun to throw some outrageous ideas at you while I sit back in my baech lounge chair and drink martinis...)

Oh Sh.t, my satelite signal is fad........



Hey, shouldn't you be gone by now? Shoo, shoo!

Btw, I am also going away for a few days. Only four days though, back late on tuesday. Wow, Erkon and JERfit, only you two left... :eek:


I will finish my turnset tonight. It seems I have some support for going max peace, so I will follow that strategy.

Played 10 turns, hit end of turn just so we got out of anarchy, so technically that is 11 turns then. I hope you can forgive me, 'cause I have some good news. :)

Brief summary

Turn 4 (continued) 1274:
Trade with Hannibal: peace with W + map + 120 gold for Econ + DR
Trade with Mehmed: peace + map for Econ + PP

Turn 5 (1280):
Washington has self-researched Liberalism.
GM would give 1950 gold in Edirne (size 12, MW 13)

Turn 6 (1286):
W asks us to cancel deals with Brennus. All we have is 1 corn for 1 gpt, so I agree.
Isabella vassals to Mehmed.
Gandhi has a Galleon otw to Cape Fish. I evacuate the LB there.
GM would give 2550 gold in Istanbul (size 22, MW 13)
GM would give 1950 gold in Bursa (size 13, MW 13)

Turn 7 (1292):
Liberalism finished (I could have traded for it in the previous turns, but PP for 2 turns worth of research seemed like a poor deal)
I forget to revolt. :mad:

Turn 8 (1298):
G pillages fish at CF, moves towards MW. I send two galleons to protect our other fishing boats, but not attack.
Trade with W: Printing press for Gunpowder (see, a much better trade already)
GM still gives 2550 gold in Istanbul despite MW growing to size 14, so I burn it on a trade mission. We are now officially filthy rich. :)
Revolt to Free Speech + Free Market (3 turns). Didn't forget this time.

Turn 9 (1304):

Turn 10 (1310):
Hannibal revolts to Free Market + OrgRel. We immediately improve relations to pleased due to favourite civic.
Gandhi has Printing Press
I hit the end of turn button for...

Turn 11 (1316):
Out of anarchy. And..... (drumroll) .....










Gandhi attacks!




152053

:woohoo:

He apparently build a mace in Kolhapur. This mace captured the first worker that was now on his land and then retreated back to his city. But that apparently was enough to encourage the longbow to capture the second worker, right next to Commerce City. We now officially have the first Gandhi land unit in our territory. And it was on my watch. Great play, isn't it? :p


Now, we should suicide the warrior in CC against his longbow, or perhaps move it away (he might not dare capture an undefended city with a 99 HP unit...). Then as it seems that the worker trail idea worked (who was it that came up with that fine idea anyway? :hmm: :D ) we should plant new trails using more of our workers. We have too many of them anyway.
What do you think, CC->GC->MW?


We have a bunch of monasterys to whip before completing Scientific Method. A Hindu Mon should be built somewhere, Vienne is a good location since it needs the culture and has good production.

Hey, shouldn't you be gone by now? Shoo, shoo!I am gone.

'cause I have some good news. :) That's a first... ;)

Turn 11 (1316):
Out of anarchy. And..... (drumroll) .....

Gandhi attacks!

We now officially have the first Gandhi land unit in our territory. And it was on my watch. It's okay, JERFit, we all know it was technically an overflow into your turnset... Great play, isn't it? :p SUPERB!


Now, we should suicide the warrior in CC against his longbow, or perhaps move it away (he might not dare capture an undefended city with a 99 HP unit...). Then as it seems that the worker trail idea worked (who was it that came up with that fine idea anyway? :hmm: :D ) we should plant new trails using more of our workers. We have too many of them anyway.
What do you think, CC->GC->MW?


We have a bunch of monasterys to whip before completing Scientific Method. A Hindu Mon should be built somewhere, Vienne is a good location since it needs the culture and has good production. I'd say at least 2 Hindu Mionasteries, they're very useful.
EXCELLENT JOB, GNEJS!!!

I tested in WorldBuilder several times G taking our cities and even when I had 100 Modern Armour all over the place, his Warrior fearlessly captured my undefended captial EVRY TIME.

MOVE THE WARRIOR OUT>>LEAVE CC UNDEFENDED

On the worker path, I think it's tedious but VERY IMPORTANT to cancel the worker actions (RED X) each turn. That way they are always available to move to the appropriate place for the continuation of the worker trail.

Plus, leave MW undefended for that galleon, although I guess there's nothing in it. (But don't leave it undefended forever if the galleon moves on and MW is unhappy.)

I agree on CC>GC>MW. Hopefully, the capital will switch to Karak. We should work maximum food, proeduction and commerce tiles there and no poprushing if it looks like MW might fall.

Good Luck JERFit!!!

JERFit - Have you checked the save yet? Please announce a "got-it" and we can discuss what to do. Do you have any ideas?

My suggestions for the next turn-set

Research
We need monastaries before we get Scientific Methods, so I think we should shut down research until we are close to complete the needed monastaries. After SM, we go for Physics towards Multi Media.

Gandhi
Establish worker trails to GC and maintain the one to Brown City.
Avoid moving ships close to Gandhi borders. We don't want Gandhi to spot any of our units/ships. If Gandhi completes the Temple of Salomon, he can see our jewish cities, so they should at that time be evacuated as well

Murky Waters
Swap to Hindu Monastary

CC
Switch to build research
Remove scientist to grow in one turn
Move out the warrior (either towards MW or to the south.

Stone Island
Road the mine, then move the worker to improve the grasslands.

Karak
Remove engineer

Ning-Hsia
Perhaps a cottage or even a workshop could be useful 1S of the iron

Old-Sarai
Even here we should build cottages or workshops

Marble City
Swap to build jewish missionary, then send him to Gergovia
Then build jewish monastary in MC

Bibracte
Remove engineer

Tolosa
Swap to Hindu Monastary

Gergovia
Build jewish monastary when jewish missionary arrives

Vienne
Hindu Monastary

I'm a horrible team member, but would you care to swap with me Erkon, or would you be ok to wait for me until tomorrow or the day after? :)

I'm a horrible team member, but would you care to swap with me Erkon, or would you be ok to wait for me until tomorrow or the day after? :)

I can swap, but I can wait as well. We're not in a hurry, and the point with this game is for everyone to get involved. If you want to play, then play when you have time. If you don't want to play this turn set, then I will do it. No problem whatever you choose :)

Got it, I'll play sometime tomorrow, It's getting late and I just barely got home. I'm tired, :)

Please try to get the two hindu and jew monastaries before completing Scientific Methods.

Good luck!

I'm a horrible team member, but would you care to swap with me Erkon, or would you be ok to wait for me until tomorrow or the day after? :)We're all busy, so that's normal. Otherwise, you've played your turnsets timely and effectively, so I don't think anyone here sees you as anything but a fine team member.

Please try to get the two hindu and jew monastaries before completing Scientific Methods.

Good luck!Erkon, I can't see the save (I'm in an internet cafe in Athens...), so do you think you could also give JERFit a quick summary of our current trade/AI relations strategy? It's usually helpful to summarize that frequently anyway.

JERFit, do your best to give away CC and maybe even GC or MW or any other city in that region. Don't hold back, as weird as it may seem.

If Hannibal or anyone else does something weird, do your best to handle it or save and ask Erkon, if you have doubts...

Good luck JERFit!

There are no trade opportunities right now that we shall agree on (almost all AI has the same tech level). JERFit - check the diplomacy chart each turn to check if a tech is available for trade. I don't see any real reason why not to agree to a deal if possible.

Also, check cities that grow a pop, since the game likes to asign specialists. We don't want any more, since we want the cities to grow (both the old and the new).

Other than that, we should be as nice as possible to everyone. Don't change religion or civics due to demands. Tech is fine to give I think.

I would like to start off by saying that Ghandi is the biggest waster that there has ever been. He stole about 4-6 workers, defeated a suicide warrior, and captured a total of 0(!!) cities. :mad:

Other than that

I completed 2 hindu monasteries (MW, Vienne, and maybe another one, I don't quite remember) and 2 Jewish monasteries (Georgetown and MC).

Completed Scientific Method and started Constitution.

There's a Ghandi Galleon creeping around the Northern coast heading south. Hopefully a rather small invasion? :(

and oh yeah, OIL! :goodjob:

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1316 AD to 1376 AD:


Turn 277, 1322 AD: The borders of New Sarai have expanded!
Turn 277, 1322 AD: The borders of Bibracte have expanded!
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Rabbi Akiva (Great Prophet) has been born in Delhi (Gandhi)!

Turn 278, 1328 AD: Francis Bacon (Great Scientist) has been born in Carthage (Hannibal)!

Turn 279, 1334 AD: You have constructed a Hindu Monastery in Murky Waters. Work has now begun on a Stable.
Turn 279, 1334 AD: The borders of Commerce City have expanded!
Turn 279, 1334 AD: Gandhi has completed The Temple of Solomon!

Turn 280, 1340 AD: The borders of Vienne have expanded!

Turn 281, 1346 AD: Judaism has spread in Gergovia.
Turn 281, 1346 AD: While defending, your Worker was destroyed by a Indian Longbowman!

Turn 282, 1352 AD: You have discovered Nationalism!
Turn 282, 1352 AD: Turfan has grown to size 10
Turn 282, 1352 AD: You have constructed a Theatre in Stone Island. Work has now begun on a Trading Post.

Turn 283, 1358 AD: The enemy has been spotted near New Sarai!
Turn 283, 1358 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Cape Fish!
Turn 283, 1358 AD: Karak has grown to size 18
Turn 283, 1358 AD: You have constructed a Hindu Monastery in Tolosa. Work has now begun on a Library.
Turn 283, 1358 AD: Bibracte has grown to size 18
Turn 283, 1358 AD: Tolosa's cultural boundary is about to expand.

Turn 284, 1364 AD: The enemy has been spotted near New Sarai!
Turn 284, 1364 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Commerce City!
Turn 284, 1364 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Commerce City!
Turn 284, 1364 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Cape Fish!
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Commerce City will grow to size 14 on the next turn
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Commerce City will become unhappy on the next turn
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Turfan will grow to size 11 on the next turn
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Murky Waters has completed The Spiral Minaret!
Turn 284, 1364 AD: The borders of Tolosa have expanded!
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Verlamion has grown to size 9
Turn 284, 1364 AD: The borders of Verlamion have expanded!
Turn 284, 1364 AD: You have constructed a Hindu Monastery in Gergovia. Work has now begun on a Forge.
Turn 284, 1364 AD: While defending, your Worker was destroyed by a Indian Maceman!
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Isabella adopts Free Religion!

Turn 285, 1370 AD: The enemy has been spotted near New Sarai!
Turn 285, 1370 AD: The enemy has been spotted near New Sarai!
Turn 285, 1370 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Commerce City!
Turn 285, 1370 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Cape Fish!
Turn 285, 1370 AD: You have discovered Scientific Method!
Turn 285, 1370 AD: You have discovered a source of Oil near New Sarai!
Turn 285, 1370 AD: You have discovered a source of Oil near Tolosa!
Turn 285, 1370 AD: You have discovered a source of Oil near Bibracte!
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Commerce City has grown to size 14
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Commerce City has become unhappy
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Turfan has grown to size 11
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Bibracte will grow to size 19 on the next turn
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Gergovia will grow to size 7 on the next turn
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Madrid will grow to size 11 on the next turn
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Camulodunum's cultural boundary is about to expand.

Turn 286, 1376 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Samarqand!
Turn 286, 1376 AD: The enemy has been spotted near New Sarai!
Turn 286, 1376 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Commerce City!
Turn 286, 1376 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Brown City!
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Murky Waters's Warrior (2.20) vs Gandhi's Maceman (12.80)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Combat Odds: 0.0%
Turn 286, 1376 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: (Combat: +50%)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Murky Waters's Warrior is hit for 41 (59/100HP)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Murky Waters's Warrior is hit for 41 (18/100HP)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Murky Waters's Warrior is hit for 41 (0/100HP)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Gandhi's Maceman has defeated Murky Waters's Warrior!
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Your Warrior has died trying to attack a Maceman!

I would like to start off by saying that Ghandi is the biggest waster that there has ever been. He stole about 4-6 workers, defeated a suicide warrior, and captured a total of 0(!!) cities. :mad:


:lol: Amazing! Anyway - good play! :goodjob:

Turn 279, 1334 AD: Gandhi has completed The Temple of Solomon!

This is excellent! Lets start building missionaries - both for our cities and all the other AI's cities as well.

JERFit - I looked at the save and the indicates that Gandhi moved the mace next to CC and then withdraw on the next turn? I didn't know that was possible....

I even tried putting a worker next to CC and then 3 undefended workers in CC and he still didn't go for it. Maybe he has problems with following through?:confused:

Ok, guys, I'm back and ready ready to ruin our culture graph full force.

JERFit, just one question. When G had the unit next to the undefended CC and didnt attack it, did he withdraw or attack another one of our workers instead?

I even tried putting a worker next to CC and then 3 undefended workers in CC and he still didn't go for it. Maybe he has problems with following through?:confused:SO was that G unit sitting outside CC for more than one turn?

Erkon, you want to go next or should I? Either way, I think we need to keep this rolling along, because we may have a long way to go, this being a space race.

LC - you are ahead of me in the list, so you go first. When will BP be back? Gnejs should be back tonight i.e. will start post tomorrow.

I have been thinking a bit about the situation we have. Both Isabella, Brennus and Mehmed are pushing our culture. How about gifting Stone City and Samarqand to Isa & Brennus, then attack the triumvirate? We can then gift some of Mehmed cities to Washington. Mehmed can keep the city next to Bibracte. This would give both Washington and us better research, which is good for us and Gandhi, but bad for Mehmed :)

LC - you are ahead of me in the list, so you go first. When will BP be back? Gnejs should be back tonight i.e. will start post tomorrow.

I have been thinking a bit about the situation we have. Both Isabella, Brennus and Mehmed are pushing our culture. How about gifting Stone City and Samarqand to Isa & Brennus, then attack the triumvirate? We can then gift some of Mehmed cities to Washington. Mehmed can keep the city next to Bibracte. This would give both Washington and us better research, which is good for us and Gandhi, but bad for Mehmed :)Just to clarify, are you suggesting leaving Isa and B with just those cities and taking their other ones? I definitely see the benefit to our economy, both getting rid of those two and gaining Isa's current city and Silver city.

I have two hesitations:

I wouldn't trust H to not kill those two off, which is not in our long-term interests, and
I like Stone Island, cost and all as a strategic buffer between H and G. (Do you think that's unnecessary?)
Otherwise, I think your strategy could be okay. Brennus won't talk yet.

I think it's good to also start thinking in terms of the world oil and uranium supplies. Mehmed has oil next to Bibracte, Hannibal has none. If we get Physics next (7t at 100%), we'll get the GS and find out where uranium is, which could work well with DOWing Mehmed.

Not sure when BP gets back. He can play his turnset when he comes. For now let's say I'm swapping with him:

"GOT IT."

Ok, guys, I'm back and ready ready to ruin our culture graph full force.

JERFit, just one question. When G had the unit next to the undefended CC and didnt attack it, did he withdraw or attack another one of our workers instead?
No he withdrew... I started putting even more workers, so that he could attack those, too, but to no avail. My thinking was that if I was able to get him into our heartland that he would have no choice but to attack something.

SO was that G unit sitting outside CC for more than one turn?

He would attack a worker standing next to CC and then on the next turn withdraw along with the worker. So I then put a worker next to CC and 2 undefended workers in CC, and he captured the one outside CC and retreated the same next turn. This went on rhythmically for the entirety of my turnset.

He would attack a worker standing next to CC and then on the next turn withdraw along with the worker. So I then put a worker next to CC and 2 undefended workers in CC, and he captured the one outside CC and retreated the same next turn. This went on rhythmically for the entirety of my turnset.Ok, this is excellent info. Makes sense, I guess, since his mace is alone, that G uses it to escort the worker.

Think I'll try sticking one of our remaining warriors W of CC instead of a worker, see what happens. G has now passed us on the Power Graph, so maybe he'll gain some courage.

Actually, since G nows sees inside CC, I think I'll first try leaving the Mace with nothing to take anywhere and see if he moves on CC.

Our research is crawling at a snail's pace. H is cooking along twice faster than everyone else. We're way overextended. Mass Media is an eternity away with the UN build still after that. Not sure that's our highest priority.

I'm liking Democracy and Emancipation to get our towns growing twice faster. H already has constitution, if he gets Demo and switches to Emanc, we're all fried (unhapiness).

Details from my plan:

Spam Jewish Misses in MC at 20:hammers:/t
Spam Hindu Misses in Gergovia
MM everywhere
Protect our nets with our galleons

Notes:

If we spread HInduism to future G cities, he'll have unhappiness there because of warring with brothers of the faith (but only until FR).
Guys, there's no point in letting G pillage our nets. We have idle 8 galleons.

Nice play JERFit! :thumbsup:

Gandhi not capturing CC is, well, extraordinary. The stupidity of the AI even surpasses that of Erkon. :eek: :eek: :eek:
Not much to say, other than that I now feel totally ashamed of every loss I have ever had to this AI... :)

Turn 282, 1352 AD: You have discovered Nationalism!


Who was this trade with, and for what?

Our research is crawling at a snail's pace. H is cooking along twice faster than everyone else. We're way overextended. Mass Media is an eternity away with the UN build still after that. Not sure that's our highest priority.

I'm liking Democracy and Emancipation to get our towns growing twice faster. H already has constitution, if he gets Demo and switches to Emanc, we're all fried (unhapiness).

Details from my plan:

Spam Jewish Misses in MC at 20:hammers:/t
Spam Hindu Misses in Gergovia
MM everywhere
Protect our nets with our galleons

Notes:

If we spread HInduism to future G cities, he'll have unhappiness there because of warring with brothers of the faith (but only until FR).
Guys, there's no point in letting G pillage our nets. We have idle 8 galleons.


Hannibal will lose his +2 trade routes/coastal city with Corporation, so there is no need to worry about his research rate.

We shouldn't worry about emancipation, the unhappiness takes some time to kick in, and is only a worry if several civs have it simultaneously. By then we should be able to trade for Democracy.
I would rather wait with the switch until we can vote it through in the UN. That would save us 3+ turns of Anarchy, well worth a few unhappy citizens in the meantime.

I "escorted" Gandhi's Galleon along our coast, parking one of ours on the nets when necessary. I suggest you do the same.

Mass Media is not that far away. If we get Physics first we can lightbulb part of Electricity with the free scientist. Can we farm an engineer also? (haven't looked at the save yet)


I also don't see the hurry to adjust the Brennus/Isabella situation. Erkon's solution helps us but not Gandhi. Better to tech fast towards MM and the UN.


PS. Hope you had a good time in Greece!


Edit: Whip some forges in MW, CC, etc. We have angry citizens and food to spare, a forge gives an instant +2 happy.

Hannibal will lose his +2 trade routes/coastal city with Corporation, so there is no need to worry about his research rate. In general, I'm not worried about H's rate, I'm worried about everyone else being so slow.... We want fast research worldwide.

We shouldn't worry about emancipation, the unhappiness takes some time to kick in, and is only a worry if several civs have it simultaneously. By then we should be able to trade for Democracy.
I would rather wait with the switch until we can vote it through in the UN. That would save us 3+ turns of Anarchy, well worth a few unhappy citizens in the meantime. OK.

I "escorted" Gandhi's Galleon along our coast, parking one of ours on the nets when necessary. I suggest you do the same. Good idea.

Mass Media is not that far away. If we get Physics first we can lightbulb part of Electricity with the free scientist. The GS bulbs Chemistry then Biology before Electricity. Can we farm an engineer also? (haven't looked at the save yet)


I also don't see the hurry to adjust the Brennus/Isabella situation. Erkon's solution helps us but not Gandhi. Better to tech fast towards MM and the UN. That's good because I'm not in the warmongering mood right now.


PS. Hope you had a good time in Greece!Yes, I did, thanks. Ate lots of good food and enjoyed the Greek spirit of play.

So anyone disagree if I research Physics next? SHould we continue at 50%? I think it's not a bad idea as it gives us a cushion if we decide we need to research something else in a hurry.

I also noticed a couple good sites for giveaway cities on the old continent on the far wast fish in the new homeland. Plus, Washington and H and settling the old continent like leeches.

... The stupidity of the AI even surpasses that of Erkon. :eek: :eek: :eek:
...

And where do you fit in that ranking? I thought you had got enough spanking from WOTM8 conquest challenge :cry: :whipped:

...
Think I'll try sticking one of our remaining warriors W of CC instead of a worker, see what happens. G has now passed us on the Power Graph, so maybe he'll gain some courage.

Actually, since G nows sees inside CC, I think I'll first try leaving the Mace with nothing to take anywhere and see if he moves on CC.

You can start without warrior and if that doesn't help, you can move the warrior to the tile W of CC.

Mass Media is good to research, since the AI does not go for it. This means we can get techs that are easy to trade away.

Missionaries are top priority. I would also suggest that you build a LBM and sacrifice him against a LBM in Gandhi-city. Anything that will boast the confidence of Gandhi army. Remember, we shall teach him the art of war!

Do we know what happiness resources G has? He will get WW from capturing our cities, yes? OTOH, with this rate, the WW will drop quicker than he can generate them :lol:

...
I also don't see the hurry to adjust the Brennus/Isabella situation. Erkon's solution helps us but not Gandhi. Better to tech fast towards MM and the UN.
...
Edit: Whip some forges in MW, CC, etc. We have angry citizens and food to spare, a forge gives an instant +2 happy.

Ok, we can wait the attack, although I still think that Washington will have better use of the cities than Mehmed.

...
So anyone disagree if I research Physics next? SHould we continue at 50%? I think it's not a bad idea as it gives us a cushion if we decide we need to research something else in a hurry.
...


Run research at 100% until we get physics. Then shut down and save up to a few grand. We can then research Electricity at 100%.

Do we know what happiness resources G has? He will get WW from capturing our cities, yes? OTOH, with this rate, the WW will drop quicker than he can generate them :lol: Contrary to some wive's tales I've read, capturing wkrs also contributes to WW (I tested it). So G will be affected by teh 23,498 wkrs he's captured from us.

@Gnejs, btw, according to the Gnejs Worker-Trail Strategy, how many wkrs do we have to sacrifice before G will capture CC? (I seem to have missed that detail... :lol: )

Okay, guys, I'll play tonight or more likely tomorrow AM.

@Gnejs, btw, according to the Gnejs Worker-Trail Strategy, how many wkrs do we have to sacrifice before G will capture CC? (I seem to have missed that detail... :lol: )


No comment. Grrrrr. :mad:

Who was this trade with, and for what?

Geeze I forget everything, I traded for astronomy to Mehmed.

Okay, guys, I'll play tonight or more likely tomorrow AM.

LC? Have you gone fishing? :bump:

LC? Have you gone fishing? :bump:

He didn't say he was going to post his save or inform us that Gandhi has taken both CC and GC though. Right LC?

Impatient warmongers, I've played a number of turns and will finish soon, but so far G is the Number One All-Time Chump.

Okay, played to the end of my tenth turn.

Oxford
I was reluctant to stop--wanted to play three more turns to poprush the University in Madrid properly, but I decided to risk leaving that up to BP or Erkon. (The idea being to maximize the :hammers: overflow to Oxford = popr for 2 citizens when there are 229:hammers:.)

Anyway, uneventful turnset.
Spent most of the time watching a G maceman's poopy butt. These techniques all failed:

evacuating all wkrs so the undamaged mace had no choice but to capture (but he retreated)
offering a warrior, which the mace promptly devoured and retreated with damages
offering a scout, which the mace devoured with no damge and then retreated
In the offing: I have put the remaining scout in a position where the mace can capture in one turn, but after which we can send double-hill-defense promoted LBMs to those 2 hills, attempting to block the mace's retreat path. (Ultimately, I'm thinking we might want to bait, then completely surround the mace, giving him no choice but to attack, capture or wait.)

Spammed lots of Jewish misses, all successful, and 1 Hindu miss in Barcelona.

Pulled off a lot of good poprushes in cities with lots of food, let pop grow in cities without much. Bibrachte is now a financial and research powerhouse. In fact, I see no reason to poprush there for now, because there's nothing left that's vital to poprush. We want to get our 6 banks for Wall Street, because Corporation's not far off.

Main reasons I stopped:

We can now trade for Constitution if we want to give up SciMeth. I propose we give it to Mehmed, as H already has Replaceable Parts and is probably aiming for Rifling.
We also have enough gold to go 100% to Electricity in 6t if we decide to do that now.
G has Chemistry. Let's hope he's building Grenadiers... If we're not concerned with everyone getting Chemistry and Rifling, then we could quickly research GP Chemistry (2t, I think), so G would trade it to Washington for Constitution, meanwhile we trade it to H or Mehmed for Constitution.
Here is your Session Turn Log from 1376 AD to 1436 AD:

Turn 286, 1376 AD: Murky Waters's Warrior (2.20) vs Gandhi's Maceman (12.80)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Combat Odds: 0.0%
Turn 286, 1376 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: (Combat: +50%)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Murky Waters's Warrior is hit for 41 (59/100HP)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Murky Waters's Warrior is hit for 41 (18/100HP)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Murky Waters's Warrior is hit for 41 (0/100HP)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Gandhi's Maceman has defeated Murky Waters's Warrior!
Turn 286, 1376 AD: You have constructed a Observatory in Murky Waters. Work has now begun on a Stable.
Turn 286, 1376 AD: The borders of Camulodunum have expanded!
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Mehmed II adopts Free Market!
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Mehmed II adopts Free Religion!
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Hinduism has spread in Diyarbakir.

Turn 287, 1382 AD: Gandhi's Maceman (8.80) vs Murky Waters's Warrior (1.73)
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 287, 1382 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 287, 1382 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 287, 1382 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 287, 1382 AD: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Gandhi's Maceman is hit for 9 (91/100HP)
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Murky Waters's Warrior is hit for 40 (60/100HP)
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Gandhi's Maceman is hit for 9 (82/100HP)
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Gandhi's Maceman is hit for 9 (73/100HP)
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Murky Waters's Warrior is hit for 40 (20/100HP)
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Gandhi's Maceman is hit for 9 (64/100HP)
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Gandhi's Maceman is hit for 9 (55/100HP)
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Murky Waters's Warrior is hit for 40 (0/100HP)
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Gandhi's Maceman has defeated Murky Waters's Warrior!

Turn 288, 1388 AD: You have trained Jewish Missionary in Marble City. Work has now begun on a Library.
Turn 288, 1388 AD: You have constructed a University in Karak. Work has now begun on a Explorer.
Turn 288, 1388 AD: The borders of Besh have expanded!

Turn 289, 1394 AD: You have constructed a Forge in Verlamion. Work has now begun on a Observatory.
Turn 289, 1394 AD: You have discovered a source of Silver near Barcelona!
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Antony van Leeuwenhoek (Great Scientist) has been born in Istanbul (Mehmed II)!

Turn 290, 1400 AD: Judaism has spread in Gold City.
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The borders of Gold City have expanded!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The borders of Karak have expanded!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The borders of Brown City have expanded!

Turn 291, 1406 AD: You have constructed a Forge in Murky Waters. Work has now begun on a Work Boat.
Turn 291, 1406 AD: You have trained Jewish Missionary in Marble City. Work has now begun on a Library.
Turn 291, 1406 AD: Old Sarai celebrates "We Love the Monarch Day"!!!

Turn 292, 1412 AD: James Clerk Maxwell (Great Scientist) has been born in Murky Waters (Murky Waters)!
Turn 292, 1412 AD: You have discovered Physics!
Turn 292, 1412 AD: Old Sarai celebrates "We Love the Monarch Day"!!!

Turn 293, 1418 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Samarqand!
Turn 293, 1418 AD: Gandhi's Maceman (8.80) vs Murky Waters's Scout (1.25)
Turn 293, 1418 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 293, 1418 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 293, 1418 AD: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 293, 1418 AD: Murky Waters's Scout is hit for 44 (56/100HP)
Turn 293, 1418 AD: Murky Waters's Scout is hit for 44 (12/100HP)
Turn 293, 1418 AD: Murky Waters's Scout is hit for 44 (0/100HP)
Turn 293, 1418 AD: Gandhi's Maceman has defeated Murky Waters's Scout!
Turn 293, 1418 AD: Washington adopts Mercantilism!
Turn 293, 1418 AD: Washington adopts Free Religion!

Turn 294, 1424 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Turfan!
Turn 294, 1424 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Samarqand!
Turn 294, 1424 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Commerce City!
Turn 294, 1424 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Madrid!
Turn 294, 1424 AD: Judaism has spread in Brown City.
Turn 294, 1424 AD: Hinduism has spread in Barcelona.
Turn 294, 1424 AD: You have trained Jewish Missionary in Marble City. Work has now begun on a Library.

Turn 295, 1430 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Turfan!
Turn 295, 1430 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Stone Island!
Turn 295, 1430 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Commerce City!
Turn 295, 1430 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Brown City!
Turn 295, 1430 AD: The borders of Madrid have expanded!
Turn 295, 1430 AD: The borders of Barcelona have expanded!

Turn 296, 1436 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Turfan!
Turn 296, 1436 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Stone Island!
Turn 296, 1436 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Salamanca!
Turn 296, 1436 AD: Judaism has spread in New Sarai.

Couple more details:

Seville's a weird case, really a prod center--lots of hammers not much gold. I set it to Bank, simply to prep for Wall Street.
G is performing economic guerilla warfare on us now--he's got two caravels camped out on our Turfan whales.
Oh yeah: Guess what LC discovered?! Uranium and :trophy2nd:

That's right: SILVER!!!!

Autographs will be given out at some future date.

I am disappointed to see you lot haven't managed to wrap it up yet - or even give up 1 inch of Viking territory to G. I think this calls for something radical (don't know what tho' - perhaps LC will tell me....)

Got it (before Erkon tries to get his sticky fingers on the save)

...
That's right: SILVER!!!!
...

Darn, there goes my final reason for warfare... Ok, let's tread the boring research path 'till feet bleed :(

j/k - this is good news for our large cities :)

or even give up 1 inch of Viking territory to G. Not entirely true. We gave him a couple tiles up N. And guess what--he's got OIL because of it, though he doesn't know that yet... I think this calls for something radical (don't know what tho' - perhaps LC will tell me....)
Oh, you mean one of my wild ideas to which you are supposed to say: "That's very interesting, LC" ? Well, guess what, waster, you're on your own: That well dried up from lack of use... :lol:. I don't think we need to get too stressed about G capturing our cities. The main ones are all Jewish now, he's been ahead of us on the Power graph for 15 turns now, and he reseaerched GP early in my turnset, so I suspect he's going to bulldozer us sooner or later. We do need to keep an eye on Mehmed and H though, cause they're not far behind us in Power.

Oh yeah, welcome back, hope you had a good time and I'm glad you're here just in time to poprush that Madrid Univ the right way...

In the offing: I have put the remaining scout in a position where the mace can capture in one turn, but after which we can send double-hill-defense promoted LBMs to those 2 hills, attempting to block the mace's retreat path. (Ultimately, I'm thinking we might want to bait, then completely surround the mace, giving him no choice but to attack, capture or wait.)Forgot to mention that I have three knights moving toward a galleon chain for transport to CC, where they can help surround the mace and "encourage" him to capture rather than retreat.

Plus, I may have an automove or two going because, like I said, I was planning to play a few more turns, when suddenly Constitution became available.

Edit: Whip some forges in MW, CC, etc. We have angry citizens and food to spare, a forge gives an instant +2 happy.Thanks for the suggestion, Gnejs, it worked like a charm. I loved this turnset actually, lots of MM... :D

Just hope I didn't overdo it in Bibracte--unhappiness from the next poprush will take 295 turns to wear off............................................... .................................(:joke:)

Well played, LC! :thumbsup:

Some nice developments:
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Mehmed II adopts Free Market!
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Mehmed II adopts Free Religion!
Turn 293, 1418 AD: Washington adopts Free Religion!

The AI relations should be improving a lot now.


Main reasons I stopped:

We can now trade for Constitution if we want to give up SciMeth. I propose we give it to Mehmed, as H already has Replaceable Parts and is probably aiming for Rifling.
We also have enough gold to go 100% to Electricity in 6t if we decide to do that now.
G has Chemistry. Let's hope he's building Grenadiers... If we're not concerned with everyone getting Chemistry and Rifling, then we could quickly research GP (2t, I think), so G would trade it to Washington for Constitution, meanwhile we trade it to H or Mehmed for Constitution.


Yes, trade as much as possible and go for Electricity. Btw, we already have Gunpowder! :D

Did you keep the free scientist around?

Originally Posted by LowtherCastle
Main reasons I stopped:

We can now trade for Constitution if we want to give up SciMeth. I propose we give it to Mehmed, as H already has Replaceable Parts and is probably aiming for Rifling.
We also have enough gold to go 100% to Electricity in 6t if we decide to do that now.
G has Chemistry. Let's hope he's building Grenadiers... If we're not concerned with everyone getting Chemistry and Rifling, then we could quickly research GP Chemistry (2t, I think), so G would trade it to Washington for Constitution, meanwhile we trade it to H or Mehmed for Constitution.

Yes, trade as much as possible and go for Electricity. Btw, we already have Gunpowder! :D I meant Chemistry, of course. G won't trade it until someone else has it.

Did you keep the free scientist around?Yes, the GS is a few tiles SW of MW and labeled. Since we want G to capture undefended MW, I didn't want to see any inadvertant goof-ups.

Not sure what to do with the GS. He might help most with an academy in Bibracte, or we could save him for a Golden Age. Not sure there's any point in lightbulbing Chemistry. I think lighbulbing is generally considered a bit pointless at this stage of the game, since our cottage economy is shifting into overdrive.

BTW, we'll be popping a GS or GA pretty soon (10-15t, I think). Maybe we should hire an enginner in MW now that we have a forge. GIve us an outside chance of popping a GE.

Yes, the GS is a few tiles SW of MW and labeled. Since we want G to capture undefended MW, I didn't want to see any inadvertant goof-ups.

Not sure what to do with the GS. He might help most with an academy in Bibracte, or we could save him for a Golden Age. Not sure there's any point in lightbulbing Chemistry. I think lighbulbing is generally considered a bit pointless at this stage of the game, since our cottage economy is shifting into overdrive.

BTW, we'll be popping a GS or GA pretty soon (10-15t, I think). Maybe we should hire an enginner in MW now that we have a forge. GIve us an outside chance of popping a GE.

We have a Great general in Bibcrate. Can we spend this and the scientist on a Golden Age? Otherwise I would recommend lightbulbing Chemistry. It saves us a few turns, and if we can trade the tech it might benefit Gandhi with a few turns of research too. It also opens up Biology so we can get that in a later trade. The AI usually prioritizes Bio.

The academy won't pay off until too late anyway.

Hire that engineer in MW. We are entitled to a lucky break by now.

Where to build Oxford? Bibracte or Madrid?

Okay, here's an important topic to discuss right now, because if we want to build Oxford in Bibracte, BP should poprush the CH on Turn Zero to maximize overflow.
Madrid is not producing as much base gold as Bibracte even without the Artemis 100% trade route bonus.
Madrid has growth problems because of Edirne cultural boundaries.
We have a spare GS to build an academy in Bibracte.
Bibracte has fewer base :hammers: but we could overcome that with some clever poprushing. (Stables, theatre, Hindu Temple are 1t, 1t and 2t builds with max-overflow poprush capabilites.)


Votes, anyone? I vote for Bibracte.

EDIT:
We have a Great general in Bibcrate. Can we spend this and the scientist on a Golden Age? No. Otherwise I would recommend lightbulbing Chemistry. It saves us a few turns, We would get Chemistry done in 1 turn instead of 3, plus 1 turn to get the lost cash back = 3t savings. and if we can trade the tech it might benefit Gandhi with a few turns of research too. It ought to enable G to trade for Constitution immediately.

The academy won't pay off until too late anyway. In Bibracte it would take 74 turns of 100% research to break even. EDIT: more like about 55-60 turns, because Bibracte will benefit from 2 additional trade routes eventually.

Rigth now we would we get an increase in our base income of 206:commerce:/turn for a golden age, plus hammers of course.

Hire that engineer in MW. We are entitled to a lucky break by now.

Where to build Oxford? Bibracte or Madrid?

Okay, here's an important topic to discuss right now, because if we want to build Oxford in Bibracte, BP should poprush the CH on Turn Zero to maximize overflow.
Madrid is not producing as much base gold as Bibracte even without the Artemis 100% trade route bonus.
Madrid has growth problems because of Edirne cultural boundaries. Once we get a few culture producing buildings in Madrid this will not be a problem
We have a spare GS to build an academy in Bibracte.
Bibracte has fewer base :hammers: but we could overcome that with some clever poprushing. (Stables, theatre, Hindu Temple are 1t, 1t and 2t builds with max-overflow poprush capabilites.)


Votes, anyone? I vote for Bibracte.


LC is correct in that the base commerce in Bibracte is much greater than that in Madrid (almost twice as much - but that will decrease once we lose the Artemis bonus), now that we have switched to Free Speech and our towns are pulling in 8:commerce: per turn. The lower production is not great but some clever chopping and a switch to U Suff (giving an extra 7 1/2 hammers per turn in Bibracte) will help. The main problem tho' is that we also want to build Wall Street in Bibracte - which at 900 hammers is going to be a long slow slog. I guess we could get started on Oxford now while we are building the banks needed for Wall Street.

As for the GS, saving it for a GA seems the best bet at present. On the subject of GAs, we should probably try to be building the Taj someplace (?BC) - even if we fail, the money will be useful....

:science: once we lose the Artemis bonus Okay, I just realized something: the Artemis loss is 50%+ countered in Bibracte by its harbor (50%) which Madrid can't have, and its greater population potential (+).

The main problem tho' is that we also want to build Wall Street in Bibracte - which at 900 hammers is going to be a long slow slog. I guess we could get started on Oxford now while we are building the banks needed for Wall Street. Well, we would start Oxford on Turn 1 (you'd also have to poprush 1 more university, Madrid or Camul... on Turn Zero) and I think it will be done well before we get to Wall Street time.

As for the GS, saving it for a GA seems the best bet at present. On the subject of GAs, we should probably try to be building the Taj someplace (?BC) - even if we fail, the money will be useful....If we happen to pop a Great Artist, he'll lightbulb Radio or MM. If we pop a GE, he's on the UN, so actually, thinking carefully, it appears that a golden age isn't in the cards anyway. Unless we want to save it for the next GL which is likely to be a Great Prophet in Bibracte.

EDIT: BOttom line on Oxford is that it'll give us a lot more :science: in the short term in Bibracte and it'll have the realistic potential to give us about 137:science: , whereas in Madrid, the realistic potential is about 105:science: . Furthermore, whether there is an academy is irrelevant, because the bonuses are only additive.

Barcelona
Without further warring, Barcelona is our only useful naval production center. It could produce 16 base :hammers:. Add a forge, military academy, factory, etc. and it'd be cooking. I think it's important for us to control the seaways.

If you all agree, I think it's important to NOT poprush in Barcelona, because of its slow growth, and prioritize these builds: TP>forge>production facilities.

At present we seem to be beelining Elec>Radio>Mass Media in order to get the UN built and pass some useful resolutions. But is this the best strategy? In themselves the techs Elec, Radio and MM are not particularly useful to us at present (we have no windmills and watermills), although they will of course become necessary in the future in order to tech (say) industrialism and computers. At present it will probably take us 28 turns to finish MM. Then we have to decide where to build the UN. At 1500 hammers, it will take us another ~50 turns even in BC (assuming G hasn't plucked up the courage to capture it by then). And once the UN is built, which resolutions are going to be that helpful? The extra trade route one will help, although will probably help the others more than G. Free Religion may help G for the 10% research bonus - but will lose him any benefit from U Sankore and Spiral Minaret (if he ever captures them...). And I imagine he will already be running U Suff, Free Speech and Emancipation long before we get the UN built. Similarly, although it would be nice for us to get Emancipation and U Suff without having to go through 3 turns of anarchy, I don't think we want to wait ~70-80 turns before getting these civics. (Yes, I know, we might get lucky and pop an engineer to halve the build time of the UN - but we are still looking at 25 turns or so to build it)

So, what should we research instead?

Let's look at the options:
1. Mil Trad (3 turns at 100%): Pros: gets us a kick-ass mounted unit; allows us to build West Point to churn out highly experienced kick-ass cavalry units Cons: dead-end tech; we can't get DPs as we are at war with G; do we really want our focus to be on military right now?
2. Constitution: no need - we can trade for this, which leads to:
2a. Democracy (5t): Pros: allows U Suff (+1 :hammers: from all our towns and allows us to convert gold into production); allows emancipation (faster growth of our cottages etc); we can trade it to allow other civs these civic bonuses; we will need it eventually to avoid the unhappies from not running emancipation; Statue of Lib may be a useful build in the Old World. Cons: dead-end tech
2b. Corporation (3t): Pros: extra trade route (= +10:commerce: per turn in Bibracte alone = 20 beakers or gold); trading it with H decreases his commerce by negating the G Light - but should boost G's commerce when he gets it; allows us to build Wall Street. Cons: we are not ready for Wall Street build yet
3. Communism (4t): Pros: can build Kremlin (so useful in conjunction with USuff); can build SYard and spies; can run State Prop Cons: not enough watermills to make State Prop useful; no need for spies yet
4. Chemistry (3t): Pros: can upgrade beserkers to Grenadiers; necessary for Steel (Ironworks and cannons!), Steam Power (leads to Assembly line for infantry, factories and power plants!) and Biology (increased growth of cities); can build frigates and rule the waves again. Cons: obsoletes the Temple of Artemis (currently worth 20 base commerce - or 40 :gold: per turn); obsoletes the Temple of Artemis (so important I had to put it twice!); do we really want to spend money upgrading our Beserkers to grenadiers?
5. Rep Parts (3t): Pros: necessary for Rifling and Steam Power>Assembly Line; will make H more likley to trade RP with G Cons: no remaining forests or any watermills!

I think on balance I favour (Constitution)>Corporation>Democracy>Rep Parts (maybe trade for this?)>Rifling or Chemistry. It is strong economically and takes us down the route of either Steel>Artillery>Rocketry or Steam Power>Assembly Line

Although men with their hair in braids and wearing skirts were considered quite scary when we first started making Beserkers and kicking Brennus' ass with them, they are in danger of becoming somewhat passe and 'last-year'. I have heard several sniggers from Mehmed and Hannibal about our army and I think we will have to face the fact that they soon will not be as feared as they once were (same goes for our navy). I suggest we beeline to Assembly Line and upgrade our Beserkers to Infantry (rather than wasting money upgrading to rifles/grenadiers and then again to infantry) to make the Vikings again the most feared power in the world (and stop any likelihood of sneaky attacks from Hannibal, Mehmed or Washington)

Reflections on our Research Path
BP's points make a lot of sense. Kind of boils down to how much of a threat the various AIs are right now? Let's not forget that upgrading units isn't our only option. Need be, we can crank out a bunch of grenadiers or whatever. We have a lot of production centers, more than the AIs.

Two points that BP didn't mention:

The Assembly Line path also opens up factories sooner. This raises the question, which takes longer, building all those :hammers: facilities or researching all the space-race techs? In other words, is there any point in G researching space-race techs before he has the factories to build the parts? I don't really know the answers, because I'm not a space-racer. Never done it in CIV... :lol:
THe UN enables the nuclear non-prolif resolution. Nukes would be catastrophic to what we want to achieve in this game.

Big Picture
In addition to what BP mentioned, we have long-term questions. If we want to prioritize Robotics/Space Elevator (perhaps pointless, cuz how will we ever give it to G???), only MM is not on our path.
I'm thinking we have three parallel strategic foci:

Improving the World Economy (which includes fostering peace),
Enabling G's production capacity
Out-teching others and gifting them techs/making techs cheaper for G.


Improving World Economy
The sooner we can build the UN and pass +1 trade routes and all foreign trade routes open, the better for the world economy. Those resolutions only help and do nothing to force G to adopt unwanted civics, right?

Enabling G's Production
THis is the Assembly Line research path and doesn't even require Physics, but the free GS bulbs Chemistry, which is needed.

Out-teching/gifting techs
This seems like a fluid-type strategy. We couldn't have guessed that G would be the only one to go for Chemistry, I would have thought the opposite. Eventually, it may be more in our interest to simply try to stay 1-2 steps ahead of the others and lead them from the front, rather than target a long-range goal.

I played 3 turns as teching Corporation for the extra trade route seemed a no-brainer, and I've uploaded the save to await thoughts on our subsequent direction.
Before Corporation:152462

After Corporation: 152461

H and M also have Corporation (so that should hurt H a bit commerce-wise)
no other new techs
G's maceman continues to play chicken. He is now being surrounded however...

I have started Oxford in Bibracte and the Taj in BC
Needing a bit of blood, I removed G's caravels from our whales in Turfan.... Hope this wasn't a bad move....


We need to decide on the next tech. I am torn between RP and Democracy. I guess the key question is, how soon do we want USuff/Emancipation?

I have moved the GS in the direction of Bibracte, but am still in favour of a Golden Age. Bulbing Chemistry seems a waste (it is only 2 turns at present). I have removed the 2 scientists in MW and added an engineer to maximise our chances of getting something other than a GS.

I played 3 turns as teching Corporation for the extra trade route seemed a no-brainer, and I've uploaded the save to await thoughts on our subsequent direction.
Before Corporation:152462

After Corporation: 152461

H and M also have Corporation (so that should hurt H a bit commerce-wise)
no other new techs
G's maceman continues to play chicken. He is now being surrounded however...

I have started Oxford in Bibracte and the Taj in BC
Needing a bit of blood, I removed G's caravels from our whales in Turfan.... Hope this wasn't a bad move....


We need to decide on the next tech. I am torn between RP and Democracy. I guess the key question is, how soon do we want USuff/Emancipation?

I have moved the GS in the direction of Bibracte, but am still in favour of a Golden Age. Bulbing Chemistry seems a waste (it is only 2 turns at present). I have removed the 2 scientists in MW and added an engineer to maximise our chances of getting something other than a GS.

I still think UN is the priority. Everything else we can trade for. So yes, I think it was a bad move to research Corporation ourselves. In 3 more turns we could have traded for it using Electricity. We should strive to research techs the AI doesn't, and the UN beeline is an excellent example of this.

Bulb Chemistry unless this wastes beakers. Trade it around. With Chemistry+Electricity I would be very surprised if we couldn't get Democracy and RP in trades.

And please, don't kill any more of Gandhis units. It may have unpredictable consequences for his willingness to move troops into our territory...

I will respond tonight with my thoughts. Please wait with play until then, since we all need to agree on the tech path.

I still think UN is the priority. Everything else we can trade for. So yes, I think it was a bad move to research Corporation ourselves. In 3 more turns we could have traded for it using Electricity. We should strive to research techs the AI doesn't, and the UN beeline is an excellent example of this.

Bulb Chemistry unless this wastes beakers. Trade it around. With Chemistry+Electricity I would be very surprised if we couldn't get Democracy and RP in trades.

I completely disagree. Corporation pays for itself in the extra commerce from the extra trade route. Now that 3 civs have it, then H and M will be more willing to trade it with G.

Mehmed has already reached his WFYABTA limit with us so tech trading will be become harder in future and beelin ing techs that the AI don't prioritise will be of less value.

The UN is much too long a build (~50t in BC) unless we get some production infrastructure (factories, rails on mines) going first - and going for techs like Assembly Line will mean G gets these techs quicker and boosts his production quicker.

If we pop a non-GS GP next, then using the GS on a tech that will take 2 turns to research seems a complete waste. The benefits of a 10-turn Golden Age will be much greater

I completely disagree. Corporation pays for itself in the extra commerce from the extra trade route. Now that 3 civs have it, then H and M will be more willing to trade it with G.

It cost us 3 turns at 100% research to get, which delays MM with 6 turns if we need to drop back to 50%. However, it allows us to up our research rate by 10%, so maybe in 30 turns Corp will have payed for itself. But we could surely have traded for before that, so i still think it was a waste.

Mehmed has already reached his WFYABTA limit with us so tech trading will be become harder in future and beelin ing techs that the AI don't prioritise will be of less value.

We can always gift them techs. We don't need factories, only Gandhi does.

The UN is much too long a build (~50t in BC) unless we get some production infrastructure (factories, rails on mines) going first - and going for techs like Assembly Line will mean G gets these techs quicker and boosts his production quicker.

Two solutions off my head.
1. Gift MM to all AIs, increasing the odds that someone has and uses a spare GE.
2. Go US, 0% research and rush buy. If we have biology by then we can probably use the whip as well.

If we pop a non-GS GP next, then using the GS on a tech that will take 2 turns to research seems a complete waste. The benefits of a 10-turn Golden Age will be much greater

2 turns is 2 turns...(Edit: it is almost 3 turns at a sustainable research rate)

Questions

Aren't Golden Ages 8 turns?
Why is our gross income -392:commerce: after Corporation but net income +69:commerce:? :confused:
Does anyone other than G have Chemistry?

Comments

The high price of the UN assumes you have a factory and power plant.
USuff and buying UN is interesting. 2 significant costs: 1) the 5-turn revolt and 2) spending all that cash on UN instead of research. Would this really make a big enough impact on the World economy to warrant all that cash (~15,000:commerce: IIRC)?
Building a factory to hurry the UN build is interesting. Significant delay in starting the build, but may get it finished at the same time anyway.
Don't forget non-G AIs won't trade to anyone unless 2 others know the tech. G and Washington are researching slower than H and M so without our help G will lag behind. We could think about gifting W a city with a strong inner-circle commerce, but we'd have to be careful to give him one he could culturally control.
Similarly, G won't trade a tech as long as he has a monopoly on it, so he may occasionally need our help in that way too.
Tech Path Rationales

Non-optimal rationales for researching a tech include: 1) it will help (only) us and 2) we can trade it for a tech we want. I mean non-optimal for this unique game scenario, of course. These are classically optimal rationales.
Optimal rationales include: 1) What will make non-G AIs trade to G, 2) What will make G trade his techs, 3) What will help world economy, 4) What will help G's economy, 5) What will help G's production, 6) What will prevent catastrophes--war and nukes--and promote peace. 1 and 2 will fall away in the Modern Age. 3, 4 ,5, 6 will be useful to the end of the game.

My Initial Take on All This
I think we're at a very important crossroads and it behooves us to think this through carefully. If we can come up with a set of the highest-order priorities, the optimum research path should shake out.
Principle: Right now AIs are still trading, so we now have a finite window of opportunity to accelarate G's tech rate in that manner.
Principle: We don't want H and M to acquire a position of significant military superiority.
Deadline: We want to pass the nuclear non-prolif resolution before anyone techs nukes (Rocketry?).
Bottom Line:
In terms of getting good trade value, helping G most right now, providing military security and optimizing the building and/or buying of the UN, my gut feeling is that our most logical path is straight to Assembly Line, then straight to Mass Media. That way we keep G teched up, keep the world stable and build the appropriate factory in time for the building of the UN. Railroads involve too many additional techs and de-rail the UN for too long a time.

Going straight for MM is a type of gambit that would almost surely pay off if we had a GE in our back pocket, but since we don't, I think we might want to somehow determine what the real benefit would be to the world economy before embarking on this.

Note on speeding up Oxford
:hammers: overflow from poprushing Theater, Stables, and Hindu Temple, (not barracks) will drastically speed up Oxford. I recommend doing it this way:


Set build to Oxford.
Grow population until the 2nd coastal citizen is soon to be born (~2-3t before).
Set build to Theater AND switch citizens from mines to coastal=>Make sure the production will be 7:hammers: or less (I'm assuming that we get 45*50%=67:hammers: from each citizen poprushed. If it's 45*50%=68:hammers:, then it should be <=6:hammers:).
For the Hindu Temple, it should be <= 52or53:hammers:, so you leave the citizens on the mines..
On the turn you poprush the build be sure to switch the citizens back to the mines!!!!!!!!!!
Set build back to Oxford to capture overflow.
Rinse and repeat.

@BP Since you researched Corporation, it's now your moral duty to get enough banks started so we'll have/poprush six when Bibracte finishes Oxford.

Questions

Aren't Golden Ages 8 turns?
Why is our gross income -392:commerce: after Corporation but net income +69:commerce:? :confused:
Does anyone other than G have Chemistry?

Comments

The high price of the UN assumes you have a factory and power plant.
USuff and buying UN is interesting. 2 significant costs: 1) the 5-turn revolt and 2) spending all that cash on UN instead of research. Would this really make a big enough impact on the World economy to warrant all that cash (~15,000:commerce: IIRC)?
Building a factory to hurry the UN build is interesting. Significant delay in starting the build, but may get it finished at the same time anyway.
Don't forget non-G AIs won't trade to anyone unless 2 others know the tech. G and Washington are researching slower than H and M so without our help G will lag behind. We could think about gifting W a city with a strong inner-circle commerce, but we'd have to be careful to give him one he could culturally control.
Similarly, G won't trade a tech as long as he has a monopoly on it, so he may occasionally need our help in that way too.
Tech Path Rationales

Non-optimal rationales for researching a tech include: 1) it will help (only) us and 2) we can trade it for a tech we want. I mean non-optimal for this unique game scenario, of course. These are classically optimal rationales.
Optimal rationales include: 1) What will make non-G AIs trade to G, 2) What will make G trade his techs, 3) What will help world economy, 4) What will help G's economy, 5) What will help G's production, 6) What will prevent catastrophes--war and nukes--and promote peace. 1 and 2 will fall away in the Modern Age. 3, 4 ,5, 6 will be useful to the end of the game.

My Initial Take on All This
I think we're at a very important crossroads and it behooves us to think this through carefully. If we can come up with a set of the highest-order priorities, the optimum research path should shake out.
Principle: Right now AIs are still trading, so we now have a finite window of opportunity to accelarate G's tech rate in that manner.
Principle: We don't want H and M to acquire a position of significant military superiority.
Deadline: We want to pass the nuclear non-prolif resolution before anyone techs nukes (Rocketry?).
Bottom Line:
In terms of getting good trade value, helping G most right now, providing military security and optimizing the building and/or buying of the UN, my gut feeling is that our most logical path is straight to Assembly Line, then straight to Mass Media. That way we keep G teched up, keep the world stable and build the appropriate factory in time for the building of the UN. Railroads involve too many additional techs and de-rail the UN for too long a time.

Going straight for MM is a type of gambit that would almost surely pay off if we had a GE in our back pocket, but since we don't, I think we might want to somehow determine what the real benefit would be to the world economy before embarking on this.

Good post.

The UN is more than world economy, it is about world peace. It is worrying that both Hannibal and Gandhi refuse to adopt free religion. We can force them to do this using the UN.

Spending 15000 of our cash (is it that much? We should invest as many hammers as possible to bring down the cost) is costly to us. It indirectly affects the general tech rate, but maybe that is slightly outweighed by the security and economic gains.


Ok, what about the following strategy?
We make a detour via Chemistry (lightbulbed) and Steel, and construct an Ironworks in Brown City. Makes sense, since we only need one production city to build the UN. After Steel we beeline for Mass Media (maybe trading for Steam power to get coal) and build the UN.

I appreciate this discussion regarding research, and it is obvious that we all have very different ideas of what to research. Unfortunately I could not respond to the posts before BP played the turns, although I may not necessarily had contributed anything of value :D. Still, I would prefer to come to an agreement first, else you can all count on me researching Mil Trad :D

I think we need to look at the long term goal of our research. There are three research paths that we can choose from:

Production
Civics
United Nations


We need to decide on the priority.

Also, shall we target our tech trade or Gandhi tech trade?

Finally, how much tech can we get from tech trade?

These aspects needs to be considered to judge weather going for UN or not. I don't consider the actual production of the UN to be a real problem. The main disadvantage is rather that we may not fulfill the other goals (enabling Gandhi to trade tech, and ensuring that Gandhi is one step ahead)

Did we come to a conclusion if it was enough if we knew a tech in order for Gandhi to pass his monopoly limit? It so, we should research any tech that Gandhi has monopoly on. Perhaps this idea has been presented earlier! If so, I just want remind you all of the brilliant idea someone else had.... :lol:

Iron Works in BC
6 turns to steel w/bulb (7t w/o bulb) + switch BC to maximum growth => 39:hammers:/t (BC at pop12 with 1 workshop/Replaceable Parts Chemistry) => Ironworks in 27 turns

Elect>Radio>MM 22turns @ 100% research (right now--faster with Oxford, etc., slower if we give up CC, etc...)+ BC at pop16 = 64:hammers:/t (w/o coal) => UN in 24turns.

Total # of turns = 6 +27 + finish MM + 24 = 57+ turns

With coal faster, with railroads (if we can trade for steam power and research RR after MM) faster.

Conclusion: Academy in Bibracte Karak is a good thing. :cool: Karak has the highest current and potential :commerce: and could go to G eventually.

count on me researching Mil Trad :D Now you're pointing your guns at us!?!?! :mischief:

Also, shall we target our tech trade or Gandhi tech trade?

The main disadvantage is rather that we may not fulfill the other goals (enabling Gandhi to trade tech, and ensuring that Gandhi is one step ahead) Exactly.

Did we come to a conclusion if it was enough if we knew a tech in order for Gandhi to pass his monopoly limit? Yes.

It's simple really: G needs for any 1 other player, us included, to know the tech before he'll trade it. All other AIs need for any 2 other players to know the tech before they'll trade it.

It so, we should research any tech that Gandhi has monopoly on. Probably. Perhaps this idea has been presented earlier! If so, I just want remind you all of the brilliant idea someone else had.... :lol:I think we may not want to be too rigid in our decision. Yes, we want to get to UN asap. Steel/Iron works sounds like a great idea to me.

At the same time, I don't think we necessarily have to have our blinders (blinkers for BP) on. I propose we set our course as Gnejs suggested: Chem>Steel and get the Ironworks started.

Then we head in the direction of Elect>Radio>MM, but sidetrack whenever needed to make sure G is staying teched up, whether that means freeing up his monopoly, or freeing up other AIs' techs. Probably the highest-priority strategy we have right now is to make sure G is actively trading for techs, so I think that takes precedence to a pure beeline to MM/UN.

Especially since we can't give him our cities--we need to focus on researching for him right now.

Gifting CC to G
If surrounding the mace doesn't work, I think our next alternative is to put a stack next to Kolhapur, but not attack. The idea is to force G to bring back-ups. I think the Maceman is reluctant to venture far from Kolhapur because he's there to protect the wkrs and help protect the city. If G has three LBMs there, then the Mace will be free to wander.

Iron Works in BC
6 turns to steel w/bulb + switch BC to maximum growth => 39:hammers:/t (BC at pop12 with 1 workshop/Replaceable Parts) => Ironworks in 27 turns

Elect>Radio>MM 22turns @ 100% research (right now--more with Oxford, etc., less if we give up CC, etc...)+ BC at pop16 = 64:hammers:/t (w/o coal) => UN in 24turns.

Total # of turns = 6 +27 + finish MM + 24 = 57+ turns

With coal faster, with railroads (if we can trade for steam power and research RR after MM) faster.

Conclusion: Academy in Bibracte Karak is a good thing. :cool: Karak has the highest current and potential :commerce: and could go to G eventually.

So, you wan't to bulb Chemistry and build an academy in Karak? :)

BC is one of the cities that we are most likely to lose to Gandhi. We might wan't to consider an alternative city for the Iron Works. Remember, Workshops are the equivalent of mines as soon as we have Chemistry, so any city with good food resources can take this place. Once we get Biology it opens up even more possibilities. How about Sevilla?

I appreciate this discussion regarding research, and it is obvious that we all have very different ideas of what to research. Unfortunately I could not respond to the posts before BP played the turns, although I may not necessarily had contributed anything of value :D. Still, I would prefer to come to an agreement first, else you can all count on me researching Mil Trad :D
Yes - sorry about that. :blush: You are of course quite correct - we should try to discuss any major changes from previously agreed strategy and tech path first.
In my defence, I thought that a 3 turn tech that gave us a big commerce boost was a no-brainer, but maybe not.....
I think we need to look at the long term goal of our research. There are three research paths that we can choose from:

Production
Civics
United Nations


We need to decide on the priority.

Also, shall we target our tech trade or Gandhi tech trade?

Finally, how much tech can we get from tech trade?

These aspects needs to be considered to judge weather going for UN or not. I don't consider the actual production of the UN to be a real problem. The main disadvantage is rather that we may not fulfill the other goals (enabling Gandhi to trade tech, and ensuring that Gandhi is one step ahead)
This is the key to the discussion I think. Our number 1 priority should be promoting G's tech trading (and his conquest of the Old World....); our number 2 priority either production, civics, the UN our military. The number 2 priority is fluid and will change as the game evolves

It's simple really: G needs for any 1 other player, us included, to know the tech before he'll trade it. All other AIs need for any 2 other players to know the tech before they'll trade it.
This is very important and should probably dominate our thoughts in deciding what to tech next at any given time. The other important factor of course is from part 2 of LC's seminal work of fiction- the Murky Waters Manifesto - ie. which AIs will actually trade with G. An AI has to be cautious or better to trade techs (except for G - he is such a nice guy he will still tech trade when furious) - so the attitude of the AI to G is vital. We know from LC's work that most of the AIs (esp M and G) are likely to have a sizeable hidden diplo neg mod, probably in the order of -5 to -6 (but may be even higher) and that we need them to have an attitude of at least cautious to trade (ie true diplo attitude of -2 or greater). At present only W and Isa will trade with G - both H (visible diplo score -2) and M (visible diplo score +1) are annoyed with him (true diplo score -9 to -3)
This raises 2 points:
1. At present we need to encourage trades with W and Isa - all the others are immaterial as they currently won't trade. If we tech Chemistry then G will trade it with them. Perhaps the optimal strategy would be to gift Isa Nationhood > Constitution and hope G trades Chem for Constitution with her (tho' Constitution is worth a few more beakers than Chem...). Then gift Corporation to W and G should trade Chem for Corporation with him. Similarly if we tech Rep Parts and gift it to W or Isa, then they should be prepared to trade it (as H already has it)
2. Can we determine the magnitude of the hidden diplo neg mod of the various AIs to G? I understand this has a random factor figured into it but presumably this random factor is constant throughout the game for a given AI, right? So, would it be possible to look back through old saves and compare the visible diplo score with the attitude to try to ascertain the actual value of the hidden neg mod? For example we know M's hidden diplo mod must be -4 or more (negative) as he is annoyed with a visible diplo score to G of +1. If we know these numbers perhaps we can manipulate the relationships between AIs more?

[/COLOR]So, you wan't to bulb Chemistry and build an academy in Karak? :) Wise guy. As long I remain the official team IDIOT, you get what you paid for... Nah, that was a switch, I'm now proposing to put the Academy in Karak and research Chemistry in 2 turns.

BC is one of the cities that we are most likely to lose to Gandhi. We might wan't to consider an alternative city for the Iron Works. Remember, Workshops are the equivalent of mines as soon as we have Chemistry On grassland only w/o State Prop, so any city with good food resources can take this place. I'm still looking... Once we get Biology it opens up even more possibilities. How about Sevilla? Not enough :hammers:BC is a problem with Iron Works, but we only really need them for the UN, after which they're expendable, right? A wonder in BC will make it more attractive to G and he doesn't need BC anyway before he's building space parts. BUt yeah, it's a complicated decision. I'm ready to give up and start flipping coins...
In my defence, I thought that a 3 turn tech that gave us a big commerce boost was a no-brainer, but maybe not..... For me, the reason it was a good move was that it became tradeable by AIs, rather than the commerce boost. Similarly, CHemistry is now a good move, whereas Replaceable Parts not yet EDIT: unless we gift it to W or Isa...

This is the key to the discussion I think. Our number 1 priority should be promoting G's tech trading (and his conquest of the Old World....); our number 2 priority either production, civics, the UN our military. The number 2 priority is fluid and will change as the game evolvesRIght. This is how we need to think.

Any time H and M know a tech (or any two non-Gandhi AIs), we want to research it. EDIT: Or tech it and give it to 2 others...(thanks BP)
Any time G has a monolopy, we want to research it.
ALongside that first priority, I think we want the UN as 2nd priority.

BTW, BP, the forest I was farming S of BC was to open up farms on the E side of BC. I suppose you saved it as a pre-chop, which is good for Iron Works, if we build them there. At pop10, BC can work all mines. At pop12, BC can work 1 workshop, at pop14, 2 wkshps, etc. I figured we could get to pop12 for Ironworks and pop16 for UN, but you'd need to bring an army of wkrs up to get the farms and wkshps made.

Also if we're going to build Iron Works there, might as well halt that chop you've got going and save it. It's done next turn.

2. Can we determine the magnitude of the hidden diplo neg mod of the various AIs to G? Good post, BP.

The answer is no and yes. The random factor is reset each turn so we will never know what it is, BUT on any given turn we can see what the AIs' attitudes are and that's what counts. If the diplo screen says H is cautious toward G, then he is, but he may be annoyed again next turn.

Basically, the point you made about Isa and W is far more workable than hoping for H to be cautious for a turn and trade with G that turn. I vote yes to your proposal of getting W and Isa primed to trade with G. In fact, it's nice in that we strengthen them more than we strengthen H and M.

On the flip side, that might lead to extortion demands on W that he might refuse and get his butt crushed... :cry: Such is life.

Upon reflection, since we have an ever-expanding economic juggernaut right now, we should go whole-hog on accelerating the tech pace. It may lead to war, but wtf, let's push the peddle to the metal, guys. We should de-monopolize G immediately whenever he gets one and keep feeding W and Isa with trade bait. Even if this means interrupting research on another tech temporarily.

The savings to G when trading for a tech far exceeds any economic bonus from an extra trade route.

Eventually, we'll get the UN and pass the nuclear non-prolif resolution and FR and things will be fine.

Furthermore, G has a sizable advantage on the Power Graph and is building Grenadiers which will beat the Rifles H is resaearching toward, so I doubt H is going to DOW G.

The answer is no and yes. The random factor is reset each turn so we will never know what it is That's disappointing - although also may be useful as it means H and M may randomly decide to start trading. You're certain the random factor is recalculated each turn? This would lead to potentially large attitude swings each turn. It makes more sense for the random factor to be constant for any AI relationship (if a constant random number makes any sense.....:crazyeye: )

Brown City cannot reach its full potential due to cultural encroachment from the north (taking the corn :mad: ) and from the west (taking several prime forests and river sites). A quick theatre while waiting for us to tech Steel may be helpful there.

BC will be a great Ironworks site - if we can regain its fat cross. Its vulnerability to G is a problem, but perhaps we should bolster its defences and try to keep it as a bastion of Viking-ness surrounded by Gandhi-land (assuming he ever does try to take some cities). Ironworks will be a long haul (without a GE) - 1050 hammers = ~40 turns in BC building it. So in theory we should be finished MM (if we beeline for it) much faster than we will have the Ironworks up and running.

That's disappointing - although also may be useful as it means H and M may randomly decide to start trading. You're certain the random factor is recalculated each turn? This would lead to potentially large attitude swings each turn. It makes more sense for the random factor to be constant for any AI relationship (if a constant random number makes any sense.....:crazyeye: )As certain as I'm likely to ever be. It wouldn't make sense for it to be any other way, because the attitude is re-determined each turn any way (summing all the factors). There would need to be a storage variable for the "constant" after it gets determined the first time, but I don't see any such storage variable.

If you look at enough saves, my bet is youll see that H is suddenly cautious with G for 1 turn, then flips back, even without the visible, numeric attitude changing...

Brown City cannot reach its full potential due to cultural encroachment from the north (taking the corn :mad: ) and from the west (taking several prime forests and river sites). A quick theatre while waiting for us to tech Steel may be helpful there. I don't think that's the best choice. Better to switch citizens from ALL mines to Farms and grass and grow the pop to pop12 in the next 7 turns. See below.

BC will be a great Ironworks site - if we can regain its fat cross. You're right, but it's still by far the best we have without it. Its vulnerability to G is a problem, but perhaps we should bolster its defences and try to keep it as a bastion of Viking-ness surrounded by Gandhi-land (assuming he ever does try to take some cities). Yes, I agree. BC we would want to protect for now. Ironworks will be a long haul (without a GE) - 1050 hammers = ~40 turns in BC building it. So in theory we should be finished MM (if we beeline for it) much faster than we will have the Ironworks up and running.No. Here are my calcs (from above) and there's no doubt about them:

Iron Works in BC
6 turns to steel w/bulb (7t w/o bulb) + switch BC to maximum growth => 39:hammers:/t (BC at pop12 with 1 workshop) => Ironworks in 27 turns

Elect>Radio>MM 22turns @ 100% research (right now--faster with Oxford, etc., slower if we give up CC, etc...)+ BC at pop16 = 64:hammers:/t (w/o coal) => UN in 24 turns.

Total # of turns = 6 +27 + finish MM + 24 = 57+ turns

With coal faster, with railroads (if we can trade for steam power and research RR after MM) faster.
The 57+ turns means 57t plus a few more turns to finish MM. That may be 0 extra turns or more, depending whether we have lost CC, GC, MW, and how strong our economy has become, did we have to build a bunch of units, etc...

We still haven't reached a conclusion as to the best use of the GS
1. Build an academy in Karak (= ~40:science: per turn at a sustainable research rate of 60-70%)
2. Bulb most of Chemistry (3325 :science:)
3. Wait for another GP and get a Golden Age (+1 :commerce: and +1:hammers: per worked tile for 10 turns)

I guess the Academy in Karak will pay off in ~80 turns - so bulbing Chemistry is the correct choice?

We still haven't reached a conclusion as to the best use of the GS
1. Build an academy in Karak (= ~40:science: per turn at a sustainable research rate of 60-70%)
2. Bulb most of Chemistry (3325 :science:)
3. Wait for another GP and get a Golden Age (+1 :commerce: and +1:hammers: per worked tile for 10 turns)

I guess the Academy in Karak will pay off in ~80 turns - so bulbing Chemistry is the correct choice?I see 2 reasons to build the Academy in Karak: eventually it pays off in :science: and we may eventually give the city to G.

The GA in our back pocket, especially if we pop a GProphet, might be handy, especially if we need to go into war mode or something, or even to hurry the UN after we have Iron Works.

For me the 1 turn savings on CHemistry plus the gold saved is kind of pittancey at this stage of the game.

EDIT: AN additional possibility is if we pop another GS, then we could bulb most of biology later on without having to divert our tech progress toward MM, maybe giving us needed trade bait in a pinch.

Ah heck, bulb Chemistry--it'll make Gnejs fell like we pay attention to him...yeah right

No. Here are my calcs (from above) and there's no doubt about them:

Okay, fair enough

So the plan for the rest of my turn is:
1. Bulb (or tech) Chemistry and persuade W and Isa to play with G
2. Get G to capture a city
3. Maximise growth in BC (do I keep on maximising growth once we are building the Ironworks?)
4. Tech Chem>Steel>Elec etc - unless there is a G monopoly tech that I need to research
5. Whip out temples and stuff in Bibracte and use the overflow for Oxford Univ
6. Get 6 banks built

Okay, fair enough

So the plan for the rest of my turn is:
1. Bulb (or tech) Chemistry and persuade W and Isa to play with G
2. Get G to capture a city
3. Maximise growth in BC (do I keep on maximising growth once we are building the Ironworks?) No, stop at pop12. Then you can work all mines and 1 wkshp. But watch out for culture creep...
4. Tech Chem>Steel>Elec etc - unless there is a G monopoly tech that I need to research or the AIs don't have a tech to trade to G, like RepParts...
5. Whip out temples and stuff in Bibracte and use the overflow for Oxford Univ
6. Get 6 banks builtSounds good to me.

3 details on BC: 1) You want to get 1 wkshp built in 7 turns and eventually we'll want 3 wkshps and one more farm. 2) I don't think it pays off to go for pop14 before starting Iron Works. 3) Wouldn't hurt to put those two prechops into the Iron Works also, although it might make more sense to save them for UN, since I think we'll finish IW before MM.

Also, the MC build needs to be switched back to Jewish Miss. That dratted library keeps auto-building. A Hindu Miss in Seville or any other city where you're building banks might be clever.

Oh yeah, not sure it helpsus to have that worker trail toward GC. Seems like a waste of wkrs and contributes to G's WW (a litte bit). The wkr in CC might attract him, one would suppose...

Hi all,

Sorry for being late with my opinion(s).

First, I think we should save the GS for a golden age. The extra production is far more valuable than the beakers we save when bulbing.

Second, I think we should keep our intention to loose cities to Gandhi. That means we should keep growing the pop of the potential candidates for capture (including BC) and keep building non-culture buildings.

Third, I don't think it's very clever to build Ironworks in BC. I actually oppose the idea. If we're going to build it at all (it rarely pays back in my ordinary games), we should build it somewhere on the new continent. The best city for IW is a coastal city together with West Point and a settled GG (for the +2 xp). This enable us to change to full military during the space race, which we need to stop the other AI from building the space ship.

Else, I fully agree on (2), (3), (4), (5), (6).

First, I think we should save the GS for a golden age. The extra production is far more valuable than the beakers we save when bulbing. I agree.

Second, I think we should keep our intention to loose cities to Gandhi. That means we should keep growing the pop of the potential candidates for capture (including BC) and keep building non-culture buildings. Agree.

Third, I don't think it's very clever to build Ironworks in BC. I actually oppose the idea. If we're going to build it at all (it rarely pays back in my ordinary games)I never build the iron works either. In this case we would be building it in BC with one sole purpose: to build the UN faster because we want to prioritize the UN without sacrificing the rest of our research capabilities.

Let's look at it.

Brown City is a production city. We don't really need it, we made it for G. BUt G doesn't need it till he's building space parts. So it's kind of idle now, except for building non-culture bldgs.

For me the question is, do we really need/want Iron Works somewhere else? If not, no harm done building it here.

Personally, I think it's a tough decision, but I think it's a clever solution to the UN problem. We get the UN in 60 turns, get our resolutions passed and then give it to G.

I'll go another way though, just don't see a good place to build the UN anywhere else. If we don't build it in BC, we can build lots of Jewish Misses instead or Taj Mahal, or whatever. Let's decide where we will build the UN if not here.

Finally, I've had a look at the save. Comments:

(1) - Swap place with LBM west of mace with knight north of mace.
(2) - promote said LBM with 2xhills (before the move?)
(3) - Move one worker out of CC (one is enough)
(4) - Move worker N of CC somewhere else (we don't want to confuse Gandhi)
(5) - Switch MC to Jew Miss
(6) - Best candidate for IW is Ning-Sia and Nemecotenna (although not ours :( )

Gandhi needs BC asap, since he will need to build lots of buildings before building space parts. It's far to late to "gift" it in 60 turns. I think Gandhi needs our cities 100 turns before starting to build his ship.

My Friends, I am the bearer of bad news..........


Commerce City has fallen to the Indian Hordes!!!

[party] [party] :band: :beer: :bounce: :cheers:

I have played another couple of turns and will post the save (again) until we decide on an Ironworks strategy.

Other stuff:
- G now has Constitution and could swap Chemistry with Wash for Corporation
- I used the GS for Chemistry (3300 beakers is 3300 beakers... - and the odds are our next GP will also be a GS)
- our economy has taken a bit of a hit losing CC and the Temple of Artemis bonus

Post your conclusions on Ironworks and I will try to finish off my turn tonight

Log: Turn 299, 1454 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Commerce City!
Turn 299, 1454 AD: Judaism has spread in Old Sarai.
Turn 299, 1454 AD: Washington has 230 gold available for trade
Turn 299, 1454 AD: Besh will grow to size 16 on the next turn
Turn 299, 1454 AD: Brown City has grown to size 10
Turn 299, 1454 AD: Verlamion will grow to size 12 on the next turn
Turn 299, 1454 AD: The borders of Gergovia have expanded!
Turn 299, 1454 AD: Madrid has grown to size 11
Turn 299, 1454 AD: Seville's cultural boundary is about to expand.

Turn 300, 1460 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Stone Island!
Turn 300, 1460 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Commerce City!
Turn 300, 1460 AD: You have discovered Chemistry!
Turn 300, 1460 AD: Murky Waters will grow to size 14 on the next turn
Turn 300, 1460 AD: Marble City will grow to size 10 on the next turn
Turn 300, 1460 AD: Karak will grow to size 19 on the next turn
Turn 300, 1460 AD: Karak will become unhealthy on the next turn
Turn 300, 1460 AD: Besh has grown to size 16
Turn 300, 1460 AD: Tolosa has grown to size 9
Turn 300, 1460 AD: Verlamion has grown to size 12
Turn 300, 1460 AD: Bibracte will grow to size 15 on the next turn
Turn 300, 1460 AD: Vienne has grown to size 8
Turn 300, 1460 AD: The borders of Seville have expanded!

Turn 301, 1466 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Stone Island!
Turn 301, 1466 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Commerce City!
Turn 301, 1466 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Brown City!
Turn 301, 1466 AD: Hinduism has spread in Seville.
Turn 301, 1466 AD: Gandhi has 230 gold available for trade
Turn 301, 1466 AD: Mehmed II has 3 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 301, 1466 AD: Murky Waters has grown to size 14
Turn 301, 1466 AD: Marble City has grown to size 10
Turn 301, 1466 AD: Karak has grown to size 19
Turn 301, 1466 AD: Karak has become unhealthy
Turn 301, 1466 AD: Turfan will grow to size 10 on the next turn
Turn 301, 1466 AD: Bibracte has grown to size 13
Turn 301, 1466 AD: You have constructed a Theatre in Bibracte. Work has now begun on Oxford University.
Turn 301, 1466 AD: Stone Island will grow to size 9 on the next turn
Turn 301, 1466 AD: Commerce City (Murky Waters) has been captured by the Indian Empire!!!

Turn 302, 1472 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Stone Island!
Turn 302, 1472 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Brown City!
Turn 302, 1472 AD: Judaism has spread in Karak.

Gandhi needs BC asap, since he will need to build lots of buildings before building space parts. It's far to late to "gift" it in 60 turns. I think Gandhi needs our cities 100 turns before starting to build his ship.Yes, this is something jpc mentioned before he wastered away. I think this is true. We want to be able to give him any city any time he's willing.

(6) - Best candidate for IW is Ning-Sia and Nemecotenna (although not ours :( )Ning-Sia actually works. We could sacrifice the 4 plains cottages (build wkshps) and get 33:hammers:/t, IW done in 32t.

Or sacrifice one additional grass cottage and get 37:hammers:/t, IW done in 29t.

I guess this is a much better idea than BC and retains most of its capability.

Additional needs:

Finish the forge
Hindu Miss

The 10 wkrs needed for the wkshps are already down there!!! Guess this is the answer we've been looking for.

It's possible BP has already started though...

My Friends, I am the bearer of bad news..........


Commerce City has fallen to the Indian Hordes!!!

[party] [party] :band: :beer: :bounce: :cheers:

YES!!!

YES!!!

YES!!!

YES!!!

YES!!!

YES!!!

Notes on the save:

Build banks in Karak (switch from grocer--don't need the +healthies as much as the bank right now), Besh when forge is done
Update trade deals with M and H
Consider detour to Rep Parts when Steel is done, if good for G trading
H's Power has jumped and is equal to ours currently.

Notes on the save:

Build banks in Karak (switch from grocer--don't need the +healthies as much as the bank right now), Besh when forge is done
Update trade deals with M and H
Consider detour to Rep Parts when Steel is done, if good for G trading I watch the tech screen and see if G needs anything to trade with
H's Power has jumped and is equal to ours currently. He has upgraded his LBs etc to rifles

I am worried H is about to DOW on someone again. G probably has enough grenadiers to hold him off. We can probably rush out enough grenadiers in time. W may be stuffed (esp if he doesn't hurry up and trade Chem from G)

I am worried H is about to DOW on someone again. G probably has enough grenadiers to hold him off. We can probably rush out enough grenadiers in time. W may be stuffed (esp if he doesn't hurry up and trade Chem from G)W's economy is useless anyway. He's useful to us alive. We just keep him alive. Better than H DOWing us or G, right?

My Friends, I am the bearer of bad news..........


Commerce City has fallen to the Indian Hordes!!!

[party] [party] :band: :beer: :bounce: :cheers:

I have played another couple of turns and will post the save (again) until we decide on an Ironworks strategy.

Other stuff:
- G now has Constitution and could swap Chemistry with Wash for Corporation
- I used the GS for Chemistry (3300 beakers is 3300 beakers... - and the odds are our next GP will also be a GS)
- our economy has taken a bit of a hit losing CC and the Temple of Artemis bonus

Post your conclusions on Ironworks and I will try to finish off my turn tonight

Log: Turn 299, 1454 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Commerce City!
Turn 299, 1454 AD: Judaism has spread in Old Sarai.
Turn 299, 1454 AD: Washington has 230 gold available for trade
Turn 299, 1454 AD: Besh will grow to size 16 on the next turn
Turn 299, 1454 AD: Brown City has grown to size 10
Turn 299, 1454 AD: Verlamion will grow to size 12 on the next turn
Turn 299, 1454 AD: The borders of Gergovia have expanded!
Turn 299, 1454 AD: Madrid has grown to size 11
Turn 299, 1454 AD: Seville's cultural boundary is about to expand.

Turn 300, 1460 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Stone Island!
Turn 300, 1460 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Commerce City!
Turn 300, 1460 AD: You have discovered Chemistry!
Turn 300, 1460 AD: Murky Waters will grow to size 14 on the next turn
Turn 300, 1460 AD: Marble City will grow to size 10 on the next turn
Turn 300, 1460 AD: Karak will grow to size 19 on the next turn
Turn 300, 1460 AD: Karak will become unhealthy on the next turn
Turn 300, 1460 AD: Besh has grown to size 16
Turn 300, 1460 AD: Tolosa has grown to size 9
Turn 300, 1460 AD: Verlamion has grown to size 12
Turn 300, 1460 AD: Bibracte will grow to size 15 on the next turn
Turn 300, 1460 AD: Vienne has grown to size 8
Turn 300, 1460 AD: The borders of Seville have expanded!

Turn 301, 1466 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Stone Island!
Turn 301, 1466 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Commerce City!
Turn 301, 1466 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Brown City!
Turn 301, 1466 AD: Hinduism has spread in Seville.
Turn 301, 1466 AD: Gandhi has 230 gold available for trade
Turn 301, 1466 AD: Mehmed II has 3 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 301, 1466 AD: Murky Waters has grown to size 14
Turn 301, 1466 AD: Marble City has grown to size 10
Turn 301, 1466 AD: Karak has grown to size 19
Turn 301, 1466 AD: Karak has become unhealthy
Turn 301, 1466 AD: Turfan will grow to size 10 on the next turn
Turn 301, 1466 AD: Bibracte has grown to size 13
Turn 301, 1466 AD: You have constructed a Theatre in Bibracte. Work has now begun on Oxford University.
Turn 301, 1466 AD: Stone Island will grow to size 9 on the next turn
Turn 301, 1466 AD: Commerce City (Murky Waters) has been captured by the Indian Empire!!!

Turn 302, 1472 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Stone Island!
Turn 302, 1472 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Brown City!
Turn 302, 1472 AD: Judaism has spread in Karak.


WTFG Big Pig!!!!

:woohoo: :bowdown: :hatsoff:

So, the trick was to lure Gandhis mace into our land with the workers, and then remove his options to retreat? Our main mission for now should be to repeat this with Brown City and Murky Waters.

IW in Ning-Hsia sounds fine.

What are Washingtons current civics? Could we ask/bribe him to accept vassalage (M's favourite) and Free Market (H's favourite)?

I am worried H is about to DOW on someone again. G probably has enough grenadiers to hold him off. We can probably rush out enough grenadiers in time. W may be stuffed (esp if he doesn't hurry up and trade Chem from G)

I can't look at the save right now. Could someone please post a screenie of the current civics and foreign relations?

What are Washingtons current civics? Could we ask/bribe him to accept vassalage (M's favourite) and Free Market (H's favourite)?M has to be running Vassalage or it doesn't help, but anyway W "just doesn't like us enough..."

Here you go...

Here you go...

Thanks! So we have a monopoly on Physics. How about gifting Physics to W in return for a civics change? If we also gift it to someone else they will be able to trade with G.

...
Commerce City has fallen to the Indian Hordes!!!
...

Finally! :trophy2: to BP

Thanks! So we have a monopoly on Physics. How about gifting Physics to W in return for a civics change? If we also gift it to someone else they will be able to trade with G.

Why not just gift it period? Then he can trade it with Gandhi?

I vote for IW in Ning Hsi.

Why not just gift it period? Then he can trade it with Gandhi?


Because the stupid W is still running Merkantilism. Why oh why doesn't he adopt Free Market and become H's best friend?

Perhaps he has too few open borders for the trade routes to pay off?

Thanks! So we have a monopoly on Physics. How about gifting Physics to W in return for a civics change? If we also gift it to someone else they will be able to trade with G.W won't do it. Doesn't like us. (sniff sniff)

I vote for IW in Ning Hsi.I vote likewise. THen do we continue Taj Mahal in BC, build lots of Jewish Misses, or non-culture buildings?

W won't do it. Doesn't like us. (sniff sniff)

1) Gift W Physics
2) Watch our relations improve
3) Ask W nicely to adopt Free Market

Might work, and if not, we haven't lost anything.

I vote likewise. THen do we continue Taj Mahal in BC, build lots of Jewish Misses, or non-culture buildings?

Dunno. But if someone should get a golden age I would prefer if it was us or Gandhi. So, I guess my vote is to continue with Taj Mahal.

1) Gift W Physics
2) Watch our relations improve
3) Ask W nicely to adopt Free Market

Might work, and if not, we haven't lost anything.Eventually trading/gifting techs to W will get us an extra +1, but to know exactly when we'd have to remember how many we've already done.

EDIT: But I do think (not certain) that getting only +1 more will be enough to get W up to cautious.

Before I forget, in Ning Hsia we might want to squeeze in a Theater as soon as we get all those wrkshps built, because it has practically no culture and we don't want to lose any of the fat cross.

So, the trick was to lure Gandhis mace into our land with the workers, and then remove his options to retreat? Our main mission for now should be to repeat this with Brown City and Murky Waters.MW, CC and GC (and Old Sarai!) have by far the most culture of our older cities. Especially MW of course. We need to get G to take GC and MW to free CC fat cross tiles up.

Ironworks is full speed ahead in Ning-His (I have not built a theatre there yet tho') - 5 cottages are now workshops. (We do not have the food to support anymore until we get Biology)
Oxford is virtually finished in Bibracte (thanks to LC's cunning poprushing suggestions).
We have 4/6 banks - and several more almost finished - so Bibracte can soon start on Wall Street
We have almost finished Rep Parts (which may encourage H and M to trade). Next tech is finish Elec I guess unless H and M both have Rifling
G hasn't captured anymore cities - but has settled a new one on the barren rocks between Samarquand and New Sarai. I haven't set up any worker baits, but there are 2 defenders in all his cities except CC, so it may be possible to tempt him out. I would do it 1 city at a time with knight and LB support to cut off his retreat.
I gifted Isa and Wash Physics (remember that for Isa, 2 other civs need it before she will trade it away!) but stubbornly they have refused to trade anything more with G
Wash is now cautious with us and we have re-opened borders.
Wash and G remain stubbornly hooked on Mercantilism. G and H have yet to see the benefits of Free Religion
G is sending a couple of frigates and an (empty) galleon down our west coast - probably to pillage our nets. We may need to build a couple of frigates for net defence
I am growing BC - it will be size 12 next turn but could probably grow a few more pop points before we switch to serious production (for the Taj). The good news is that it has reclaimed the corn and a river tile


NB Be careful spreading Judaism to our larger cities as it incurs an unhappy about being at war with people of the same faith! (Of course, happiness cap is not an issue in most of our cities at present)

Turn log: Turn 302, 1472 AD: Judaism has spread in Karak.

Turn 303, 1478 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 24 ? for Ning-hsia.
Turn 303, 1478 AD: Brown City celebrates "We Love the Monarch Day"!!!
Turn 303, 1478 AD: The borders of Vienne have expanded!
Turn 303, 1478 AD: Gandhi has completed The Church of the Nativity!
Turn 303, 1478 AD: A Viking revolt has taken place in Seattle!

Turn 304, 1484 AD: Judaism has spread in Samarqand.
Turn 304, 1484 AD: You have discovered Steel!
Turn 304, 1484 AD: Turfan will grow to size 11 on the next turn
Turn 304, 1484 AD: Brown City celebrates "We Love the Monarch Day"!!!
Turn 304, 1484 AD: You have constructed a Theatre in Brown City. Work has now begun on The Taj Mahal.
Turn 304, 1484 AD: The borders of Stone Island have expanded!

Turn 305, 1490 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Stone Island!
Turn 305, 1490 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Gold City!
Turn 305, 1490 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 36 ? for Madrid.
Turn 305, 1490 AD: Old Sarai will grow to size 8 on the next turn
Turn 305, 1490 AD: Samarqand has grown to size 8
Turn 305, 1490 AD: Verlamion will grow to size 11 on the next turn
Turn 305, 1490 AD: St. Augustine (Great Prophet) has been born in Carthage (Hannibal)!

Turn 306, 1496 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Stone Island!
Turn 306, 1496 AD: The enemy has been spotted near New Sarai!
Turn 306, 1496 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Brown City!
Turn 306, 1496 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 36 ? for Seville.
Turn 306, 1496 AD: Hinduism has spread in Ning-hsia.
Turn 306, 1496 AD: Mehmed II has 100 gold available for trade
Turn 306, 1496 AD: Murky Waters will grow to size 15 on the next turn
Turn 306, 1496 AD: Old Sarai has grown to size 8
Turn 306, 1496 AD: Karak will grow to size 20 on the next turn
Turn 306, 1496 AD: Karak will become unhealthy on the next turn
Turn 306, 1496 AD: Karak will become unhappy on the next turn
Turn 306, 1496 AD: Ning-hsia celebrates "We Love the Monarch Day"!!!
Turn 306, 1496 AD: Brown City has grown to size 11
Turn 306, 1496 AD: Camulodunum will grow to size 8 on the next turn
Turn 306, 1496 AD: Verlamion has grown to size 11
Turn 306, 1496 AD: Bibracte has grown to size 13
Turn 306, 1496 AD: You have constructed a Stable in Bibracte. Work has now begun on Oxford University.
Turn 306, 1496 AD: Stone Island will grow to size 9 on the next turn
Turn 306, 1496 AD: Madrid will grow to size 13 on the next turn
Turn 306, 1496 AD: Seattle has revolted and joined the Viking Empire!

Turn 307, 1502 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Stone Island!
Turn 307, 1502 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Samarqand!
Turn 307, 1502 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Samarqand!
Turn 307, 1502 AD: Hinduism has spread in Toledo.
Turn 307, 1502 AD: Judaism has spread in Stone Island.
Turn 307, 1502 AD: Murky Waters has grown to size 15
Turn 307, 1502 AD: Marie Curie (Great Scientist) has been born in Murky Waters (Murky Waters)!
Turn 307, 1502 AD: Gold City will grow to size 7 on the next turn
Turn 307, 1502 AD: New Sarai has grown to size 11
Turn 307, 1502 AD: Karak has grown to size 18
Turn 307, 1502 AD: Karak has become unhealthy
Turn 307, 1502 AD: You have constructed a Market in Karak. Work has now begun on a Grocer.
Turn 307, 1502 AD: Besh will grow to size 17 on the next turn
Turn 307, 1502 AD: Besh will become unhealthy on the next turn
Turn 307, 1502 AD: Ning-hsia celebrates "We Love the Monarch Day"!!!
Turn 307, 1502 AD: Brown City will grow to size 12 on the next turn
Turn 307, 1502 AD: Camulodunum has grown to size 8
Turn 307, 1502 AD: Bibracte will grow to size 14 on the next turn
Turn 307, 1502 AD: Stone Island has grown to size 6
Turn 307, 1502 AD: Madrid has grown to size 11
Turn 307, 1502 AD: Hannibal has completed The Kong Miao!

Turn 308, 1508 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Stone Island!
Turn 308, 1508 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Samarqand!
Turn 308, 1508 AD: The enemy has been spotted near New Sarai!
Turn 308, 1508 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 36 ? for Gold City.

Ironworks is full speed ahead in Ning-His (I have not built a theatre there yet tho') - 5 cottages are now workshops. (We do not have the food to support anymore until we get Biology) We may not need it, I forgot about the culture from the Hindu Miss...
We have 4/6 banks - and several more almost finished - so Bibracte can soon start on Wall Street Excellent!
G is sending a couple of frigates and an (empty) galleon down our west coast - probably to pillage our nets. We may need to build a couple of frigates for net defence What do you expect since you single-handedly tortured and maimed his caravels?
I am growing BC - it will be size 12 next turn but could probably grow a few more pop points before we switch to serious production (for the Taj). The good news is that it has reclaimed the corn and a river tile I'd switch to full production next turn, and turn one farm into wkshp and work. We'll get Taj in 10 turns. Waiting for more pop won't speed it up. Take advantage of that corn while we have it.
NB Be careful spreading Judaism to our larger cities as it incurs an unhappy about being at war with people of the same faith! Yes, this is a concern. We don't really need Jewish MIssionaries in BrennusLand. Superlative turnset, BP!!! No exceptions...

Did Seattle auto-raze?

Wall Street

Wall Street will be a long haul
We have no more bldgs to profitably poprush, but we can still poprush Hindu Misses for decent value.
Poprushing Hindu Misses is tricky, cuz to poprush for maximum overflow, the first turn of the build should only put <= 4:hammers: into the build!!! This means that for that first turn of the build we can only work the city center and the deer or we already have too many hammers!!! On the turn you poprush, switch all citizens back to maximum prod, of course.
From now on, we want to also work the +1:hammers: oil slick, which nets us +2:hammers: because of our 50% prod bonus. (When not setting up a Hindu Miss poprush, of course.)
We can work an engineer for extra +3:hammers: net value.
So we should only poprush from just-about-to-grow-to pop16 down to pop14.Banks

In preparation for Wall Street we need 2 more banks within 2 turns. We can poprush banks in MW and Besh Next Turn (not good on Turn Zero because Besh needs 1 more turn to go from a 4pop poprush to a 3pop poprush).

Note that we want to keep building banks, because if we lose MW, that might delay our Wall Street build.

Gifting Cities to Gandhi

Presumably we now know how to gift cities to G. Let's go for it. I think our first priority is cities that will free up the cultural boundaries around CC: GC, MW, NS. I don't think we should wait--peddle to the metal.

Ideas:

I suspect G will try to send a defender to CC, so we should put strong units on the 4 tiles immediately N, NW, W and SW of CC. This forces the defender to move twice before getting to CC and leaves him still "surroundable."
Worker baiting will only work if the G unit is surroundable, that is, not next to one of his cities or a coastal tile where his galleon can pick him up.
We should build a few more Surround Units (knights and LBMs, I guess), because surrounding can require 7 or maybe more units.
Worker-baiting may be better than explorers, because G's unit is less likely to fight his way out of a surround, I suppose, if he's protecting a captured worker.
If working-baiting doesn't draw G out, I think we should put threatening stacks next to his cities on our side of the canal, to encourage G to send back-up units.

We'd really need 21 Surround Units in all, 7 for each theater:

Wall Street

Wall Street will be a long haul
We have no more bldgs to profitably poprush, but we can still poprush Hindu Misses for decent value. A Hindu temple is still possible in Bibracte for poprush points
Poprushing Hindu Misses is tricky, cuz to poprush for maximum overflow, the first turn of the build should only put <= 4:hammers: into the build!!! This means that for that first turn of the build we can only work the city center and the deer or we already have too many hammers!!! On the turn you poprush, switch all citizens back to maximum prod, of course.
From now on, we want to also work the +1:hammers: oil slick, which nets us +2:hammers: because of our 50% prod bonus. (When not setting up a Hindu Miss poprush, of course.)
We can work an engineer for extra +3:hammers: net value.
So we should only poprush from just-about-to-grow-to pop16 down to pop14.Banks

In preparation for Wall Street we need 2 more banks within 2 turns. We can poprush banks in MW and Besh Next Turn (not good on Turn Zero because Besh needs 1 more turn to go from a 4pop poprush to a 3pop poprush).
Note that we want to keep building banks, because if we lose MW, that might delay our Wall Street build.
OU will take another 3 turns to finish. Then if we set up a Hindu temple build in order to poprush 2 pop that will take another 2-3 turns. So is there any real need to poprush the banks on turn 1 - rush them the turn before we are ready to start Wall Street and save some pop in MW and Besh

Free Religion
FR gives +1 :) per religion, right? Guess we should be spamming Judaism, hinduism, and BUddhism in H's land, right?
D'oh...

Gifting Cities to Gandhi

Presumably we now know how to gift cities to G. Let's go for it. I think our first priority is cities that will free up the cultural boundaries around CC: GC, MW, NS. I don't think we should wait--peddle to the metal.

Ideas:

I suspect G will try to send a defender to CC, so we should put strong units on the 4 tiles immediately N, NW, W and SW of CC. This forces the defender to move twice before getting to CC and leaves him still "surroundable."
Worker baiting will only work if the G unit is surroundable, that is, not next to one of his cities or a coastal tile where his galleon can pick him up.
We should build a few more Surround Units (knights and LBMs, I guess), because surrounding can require 7 or maybe more units.
Worker-baiting may be better than explorers, because G's unit is less likely to fight his way out of a surround, I suppose, if he's protecting a captured worker.
If working-baiting doesn't draw G out, I think we should put threatening stacks next to his cities on our side of the canal, to encourage G to send back-up units.

We'd really need 21 Surround Units in all, 7 for each theater:
I would councel against bringing too many units from the New World tho'. Our power is in decline compared to H and M and we are in danger of a sneak attack. In fact we really want to start churning out a few Grenadiers in Vienne (and maybe in the Old World as well) to dissuade this. (Old World grenadiers can also be used to surround G's units.....)

Free Religion
FR gives +1 :) per religion, right? Guess we should be spamming Judaism, hinduism, and BUddhism in H's land, right?
D'oh...
Spamming Judaism and Hinduism would be helpful anyway for the boost to our and G's commerce.

G has built the Church of the Nativity, so if we get any spread of Christianity to us we should also spam this widely (In fact it would be better to spread this to our cities if we could than Judaism as we won't get unhappies for it)

Ironworks is full speed ahead in Ning-His (I have not built a theatre there yet tho') - 5 cottages are now workshops. (We do not have the food to support anymore until we get Biology)
Oxford is virtually finished in Bibracte (thanks to LC's cunning poprushing suggestions).
We have 4/6 banks - and several more almost finished - so Bibracte can soon start on Wall Street
We have almost finished Rep Parts (which may encourage H and M to trade). Next tech is finish Elec I guess unless H and M both have Rifling
G hasn't captured anymore cities - but has settled a new one on the barren rocks between Samarquand and New Sarai. I haven't set up any worker baits, but there are 2 defenders in all his cities except CC, so it may be possible to tempt him out. I would do it 1 city at a time with knight and LB support to cut off his retreat.
I gifted Isa and Wash Physics (remember that for Isa, 2 other civs need it before she will trade it away!) but stubbornly they have refused to trade anything more with G
Wash is now cautious with us and we have re-opened borders.
Wash and G remain stubbornly hooked on Mercantilism. G and H have yet to see the benefits of Free Religion
G is sending a couple of frigates and an (empty) galleon down our west coast - probably to pillage our nets. We may need to build a couple of frigates for net defence
I am growing BC - it will be size 12 next turn but could probably grow a few more pop points before we switch to serious production (for the Taj). The good news is that it has reclaimed the corn and a river tile


NB Be careful spreading Judaism to our larger cities as it incurs an unhappy about being at war with people of the same faith! (Of course, happiness cap is not an issue in most of our cities at present)


Good play, BP! :goodjob:

We have no more bldgs to profitably poprush, but we can still poprush Hindu Misses for decent value. A Hindu temple is still possible in Bibracte for poprush points. True, but it doesn't give added value, because it takes 3 turns to prep the Hindu Temple:

3 turns for Hindu temple yields +67:hammers: for Wall Street

1 turn for Hindu Miss yields +56:hammers: + 2 turns (@ 18:hammers:) = +92:hammers: for Wall Street

(Took me a while to figure this out...)

EDIT: Poprushing the HIndu Temple would still make sense if we really needed it, but it's not that important right now.

OU will take another 3 turns to finish. Then if we set up a Hindu temple build in order to poprush 2 pop that will take another 2-3 turns. So is there any real need to poprush the banks on turn 1 - rush them the turn before we are ready to start Wall Street and save some pop in MW and BeshThat's bascially what I was trying to say, but my save shows 2 turns to finish Oxford, so
when Oxford has 1 turn to go, we should poprush the 2 banks.

That's bascially what I was trying to say, but my save shows 2 turns to finish Oxford, so
when Oxford has 1 turn to go, we should poprush the 2 banks.
A Hindu temple would also give us 6:science: and 4:gold: (6:gold: when Wall Street is finished) per turn because of the U Sankore and the Spiral Minaret bonuses. This may be sufficient 'added value' to justify its build and sacrificing a few hammers? (Although if it delays a Wall Street build by 2 turns, then maybe not????)

We could always whip Wall Street for 6 pop or so when half completed to speed things up

Gifting Cities to Gandhi

Presumably we now know how to gift cities to G. Let's go for it. I think our first priority is cities that will free up the cultural boundaries around CC: GC, MW, NS. I don't think we should wait--peddle to the metal.

Ideas:

I suspect G will try to send a defender to CC, so we should put strong units on the 4 tiles immediately N, NW, W and SW of CC. This forces the defender to move twice before getting to CC and leaves him still "surroundable."
Worker baiting will only work if the G unit is surroundable, that is, not next to one of his cities or a coastal tile where his galleon can pick him up.
We should build a few more Surround Units (knights and LBMs, I guess), because surrounding can require 7 or maybe more units.
Worker-baiting may be better than explorers, because G's unit is less likely to fight his way out of a surround, I suppose, if he's protecting a captured worker.
If working-baiting doesn't draw G out, I think we should put threatening stacks next to his cities on our side of the canal, to encourage G to send back-up units.

We'd really need 21 Surround Units in all, 7 for each theater:

Actually, I don't think the AI has a good grasp of highly advanced concepts such as "reinforce". :D
Maybe one should dig into the better AI mod discussions to understand how this really works, but my experience is that the AI divides it forces into static city defenders and mobile units. We have almost no mobile units on our side of the canal which is why Gandhi is not going on the offensive. If/when he does, he will usually target one city no matter what. If the AI needs to use boats to attack with its mobile units the target could be any city anywhere such as Stone Island or Madrid...

What I am saying is that maybe we should leave G's cities on our side alone so they have maximum production. This would increase the probability that G builds some mobile units in these cities.

Actually, I don't think the AI has a good grasp of highly advanced concepts such as "reinforce". :D
Maybe one should dig into the better AI mod discussions to understand how this really works, but my experience is that the AI divides it forces into static city defenders and mobile units. We have almost no mobile units on our side of the canal which is why Gandhi is not going on the offensive. If/when he does, he will usually target one city no matter what. If the AI needs to use boats to attack with its mobile units the target could be any city anywhere such as Stone Island or Madrid...

What I am saying is that maybe we should leave G's cities on our side alone so they have maximum production. This would increase the probability that G builds some mobile units in these cities.

Sending a worker bait to each of his cities with 2 (or more) defenders should allow us to quickly determine whether either of his units in those cities are mobile. (I presume the mobile mace in CC is now static until he gets at least 1 LB there)

Iron Works in Ning Hsia


Should we hire an engineer instead of one plains workshop, IW 2t slower, and after IW we can then have up to 4 engineers and farm a Great Engineer, while building the UN?
We should put a few more units in Ning Hsia--take no chances.
Ning Hsia might be an excellent place for 3 Gorges or Space Elevator too. Speaking of which, I just noticed that Space Elevaotr can only be built at <=30 lattitude!?! Does that mean we couldn't have built it in BC anyway...:mischief: How do you determine the lattitude on this map?

Actually, I don't think the AI has a good grasp of highly advanced concepts such as "reinforce". :D
Maybe one should dig into the better AI mod discussions to understand how this really works, but my experience is that the AI divides it forces into static city defenders and mobile units. We have almost no mobile units on our side of the canal which is why Gandhi is not going on the offensive. If/when he does, he will usually target one city no matter what. If the AI needs to use boats to attack with its mobile units the target could be any city anywhere such as Stone Island or Madrid...

What I am saying is that maybe we should leave G's cities on our side alone so they have maximum production. This would increase the probability that G builds some mobile units in these cities.My simplistic understanding is that the AI likes to have 3 defenders in a city. Since he doesn't consider the Mace a defender, he'll want to either build or send one to CC. Anyway, the sooner he reaches achieves his security blanket, the sooner he'll be able to build something else, right?

He's on top of the Power Graph and doesn't have too many cities, so those units have to be somewhere...unless his power comes from having frigates.

EDIT: Ok, now I get your point. My suggestion includes positioning a unit on one of his food tiles (W of CC), which helps kill off his already starving population. Hm... We could play it this way: each turn check to see if he has landed any reinforcements within 3 three tiles of CC, if so, attempt to lengthen the path so we can trap the unit.

Great Play BP!

Who's up next? Me?

Iron Works in Ning Hsia


Should we hire an engineer instead of one plains workshop, IW 2t slower, and after IW we can then have up to 4 engineers and farm a Great Engineer, while building the UN? We could just run an engineer instead of the coast tile while starving NH down until it has only 1-2:food: left (ie. just before it loses a pop
We should put a few more units in Ning Hsia--take no chances.
Ning Hsia might be an excellent place for 3 Gorges or Space Elevator too. Speaking of which, I just noticed that Space Elevaotr can only be built at <=30 lattitude!?! Does that mean we couldn't have built it in BC anyway...:mischief: How do you determine the lattitude on this map?
BC was probably too far north for SE. I guess you didn't notice the 3GD had to be built by a river tho' ..... :p

Who's up next? Me?
Yep. Go get'em cowboy.:cowboy:

I guess you didn't notice the 3GD had to be built by a river tho' ..... :pNow that's ridiculous...so much for my plans to put it in the desert... Guess that rules out 3 gorges w/o a GE. COuld go in Karak or Besh but it would take forever.

YELLOW ALERT!!!

We should irrigate the Ning Hsia corn immediately, as shown below. If I'm not mistaken, after it's irrigated, we can rebuild the cottage and uranium mine.

I forgot to mention, we popped another GS from MW (currently heading south towards Karak). Academy in Karak may well be the best use of it (it will give us ~1/3 of Biology)

YELLOW ALERT!!!

We should irrigate the Ning Hsia corn immediately, as shown below. If I'm not mistaken, after it's irrigated, we can rebuild the cottage and uranium mine.
:confused:
Won't that de-irrigate it again as the chain of irrigation will be broken?

A theatre in NH is probably important to ensure we stay in control of that corn. EDIT: And a theatre in Besh to put cultural pressure on H's city from the other side

:confused:
Won't that de-irrigate it again as the chain of irrigation will be broken?

A theatre in NH is probably important to ensure we stay in control of that corn.We could try it, since we have wkrs to spare, but in past versions it has continued to irrigate.

We could try it, since we have wkrs to spare, but in past versions it has continued to irrigate.

I am pretty certain it won't. A better option would be to farm the tiles N NE, 2NE and 2E NE of Besh (and keep them farmed!). It loses a hamlet in Besh, but would allow us to swap the coast tile for an engineer in NH for 40 turns - more than enough time to get the IW built

EDIT: We could then farm the grassland towns south of NH to support extra engineers (or workshops)

:confused:
Won't that de-irrigate it again as the chain of irrigation will be broken?


Yes, the irrigation is lost if the chain is broken.

Yes, the irrigation is lost if the chain is broken. L i a r ! ! ! Really?

I am pretty certain it won't. A better option would be to farm the tiles N NE, 2NE and 2E NE of Besh (and keep them farmed!). It loses a hamlet in Besh, but would allow us to swap the coast tile for an engineer in NH for 40 turns - more than enough time to get the IW built

EDIT: We could then farm the grassland towns south of NH to support extra engineers (or workshops)Right. Okay, even easier and loses the least developed cottage is just 2 tiles: 2E and 2E,NE of Besh.

Good idea, BP. How about scrapping all the towns and turning Ning Hsia into a full-blown prod city?

W/o Biology we use the 5 Grass tiles: 2 wkshps/3 farms, 30:hammers:/turn, 1 engineer, pop14, (+1:food: for growth)
W/Biology and IW we could run: 1 wkshp, 4 farms, 36:hammers:/turn, 4 engineers, pop17
W/factory: 5 farms, wkshp on spices, 36:hammers:/turn, 6 engineers, pop20 (pop19 = 33:hammers:/t)
With this in mind, we might want to get Biology asap (bulb?) to grow the pop with those farms, but the payback is the GE and faster IW, UN, factory, Space Elevator.

EDIT2: This is a POWER MOVE guys. Let's do it.

EDIT3: All :hammers: numbers are BASE :hammers:.

Note: Add in a drydocks and we RULE THE SEAS!!!

Great Play BP!

Who's up next? Me?

Yup. Good luck, and hope this distracts you from that other game. ;)

Playing tonight?

Right. Okay, even easier and loses the least developed cottage is just 2 tiles: 2E and 2E,NE of Besh.

Good idea, BP. How about scrapping all the towns and turning Ning Hsia into a full-blown prod city?

W/o Biology we use the 5 Grass tiles: 2 wkshps/3 farms, 30:hammers:/turn, 1 engineer, pop14, (+1:food: for growth)
W/Biology and IW we could run: 1 wkshp, 4 farms, 36:hammers:/turn, 4 engineers, pop17
W/factory: 5 farms, wkshp on spices, 36:hammers:/turn, 6 engineers, pop20 (pop19 = 33:hammers:/t)
With this in mind, we might want to get Biology asap (bulb?) to grow the pop with those farms, but the payback is the GE and faster IW, UN, factory, Space Elevator.

EDIT2: This is a POWER MOVE guys. Let's do it.

Sounds good.

Our first priority for research is choosing techs that encourage trade with G (i.e. any tech that only G knows, any tech that only 2 other AI know). Outside of this, there are probably 17 'essential' techs that we should attempt to beeline for (some are more essential than others.... I have highlighted the ones I think are key in bold)

Electricity (needed for Radio and Industrialism)
Radio (needed for MM and Computers)
Mass Media (for the UN and world peace)
Computers (for Laboratories - especially in any city that G may capture as allow 1/2 price SS components)
Biology (to grow our pop and so boost production and commerce)
Steam Power (reveals coal which gives +50% production to the IW, needed for RR)
Railroad (machine gun is a very useful early modern age defender, boosts production in mines, improves troop mobility)
Combustion (allows us to use oil, build destroyers)
Rifling (allows us to build tanks and infantry)
Assembly Line (factories and power plants!)
Industrialism (tanks, battleships, reveals aluminium)
Plastics (3GD!, needed for Fibre Optics)
Fibre Optics (Internet - gets us all those techs we haven't been researching, allowing us to spread techs around more easily)
Fission (needed for Fusion)
Fusion (free GE)
Robotics (Space Elevator - and Mech Inf)
Democracy (we are going to need those civics at some point....)


Now, we just need to decide which order to get them in......

We should attempt to build West Point (once we get Mil Trad from a trade) and Pentagon (Assembly Line - an 'essential tech') in Ning-His to benefit from the extra GE GPP. The Statue of Lib in BC may also be good to allow us an extra engineer in Ning-His

If we have enough GEs (need 2 per modern age wonder?) we could 'gift' G the 3GD +/or the Space Elevator via amphibious smash-and-grab raids:
1. Battleships/destroyers bombard a lightly defended G coastal city (in the G homeland) to 0% in 1 turn
2. Amphibious infantry/marines/whatever take the city on turn 1 and defend until it is out of revolt (smaller cities will be better as they stay in revolt less long)
3. 2 GEs build wonder on turn 1 out of revolt
4. We evacute and wave bye-bye to our kind temporary hosts.
(I figure G is much more likely to try to recapture one of his original cities that he would be to capture any city of ours that we build the wonder in)

We should attempt to build West Point (once we get Mil Trad from a trade) and Pentagon (Assembly Line - an 'essential tech') in Ning-His to benefit from the extra GE GPP. The Statue of Lib in BC may also be good to allow us an extra engineer in Ning-His

If we have enough GEs (need 2 per modern age wonder?) we could 'gift' G the 3GD +/or the Space Elevator via amphibious smash-and-grab raids:
1. Battleships/destroyers bombard a lightly defended G coastal city (in the G homeland) to 0% in 1 turn
2. Amphibious infantry/marines/whatever take the city on turn 1 and defend until it is out of revolt (smaller cities will be better as they stay in revolt less long)
3. 2 GEs build wonder on turn 1 out of revolt
4. We evacute and wave bye-bye to our kind temporary hosts.
(I figure G is much more likely to try to recapture one of his original cities that he would be to capture any city of ours that we build the wonder in)

Now this sounds like a fun tactic, I like it! Smash-and-grab indeed! :)

Our first priority for research is choosing techs that encourage trade with G (i.e. any tech that only G knows, any tech that only 2 other AI know). Outside of this, there are probably 17 'essential' techs that we should attempt to beeline for (some are more essential than others.... I have highlighted the ones I think are key in bold)

Electricity (needed for Radio and Industrialism)
Radio (needed for MM and Computers)
Mass Media (for the UN and world peace)
Computers (for Laboratories - especially in any city that G may capture as allow 1/2 price SS components)
Biology (to grow our pop and so boost production and commerce)
Steam Power (reveals coal which gives +50% production to the IW, needed for RR)
Railroad (machine gun is a very useful early modern age defender, boosts production in mines, improves troop mobility)
Combustion (allows us to use oil, build destroyers)
Rifling (allows us to build tanks and infantry)
Assembly Line (factories and power plants!)
Industrialism (tanks, battleships, reveals aluminium)
Plastics (3GD!, needed for Fibre Optics)
Fibre Optics (Internet - gets us all those techs we haven't been researching, allowing us to spread techs around more easily)
Fission (needed for Fusion)
Fusion (free GE)
Robotics (Space Elevator - and Mech Inf)
Democracy (we are going to need those civics at some point....)


Now, we just need to decide which order to get them in......

The ones in blue are what drives research the most. This should be top priority, with Mass Media as the highest of them all. Once we have those in place and have made sure that G and the others also have them we should switch to production techs and later space techs. A rocketry beeline is probably good to get G started on his Apollo program.

I think we should risk running a light military and concentrate on the research + building infrastructure/key wonders for G. If someone declares on us it is not the end of the world. (Vienne should be building units, although some culture buildings are ok too)

Yup. Good luck, and hope this distracts you from that other game. ;)

Playing tonight?

I plan to play monday night. Then I'll play the "other" game - waster!

"Got it"

Smash and Grab
When we can build the Space Elevator, we'll have to check carefully the lattitudes of our cities that can build it. G's weakest homeland cities are probably too far N.

Great Engineers
It will hard to prevent 1 of the next 2 GLs from popping in Bibracte. So to get 2 GEs, we'll need a minimum of 2700 GPPs in NH. {Once we have} IW and Factory we get 18GPPs/t = 150 turns. Statue of Liberty could help some, but the other 2 wonders will come so late with only max +3 GPPs they won't help much. Pacifism would halve the time. To complicate things, the UN will add 2GPP for GMerch.

Bottom line: I think more realistic is 1 GE + cashrush the remainder of Space Elevator/3Gs. The 2nd wonder might come from Fusion GE or our 2nd GE, whichever comes first.

Research
Looks pretty clear for now. We go for MM, then Computers, but squeeze in Biology very soon, partially with the GS bulb. Along the way we carefully monitor G and the others to see if we need to interrupt our research for a tech they need.

Taj Mahal
This should finish toward the end of Erkon's turnset. Do we want to finish it at all or leave it 1 turn from completion for the gold rush? Do we want to finish it right now or save it for a little while?

Murky Waters
Should we make a few double-promoted knights here to help with Surrounding?

Ning Hsia
I think we should send a galleon-load of strong units here, to protect against a sneak attack.

Scouting
I burned our scouts trying to give away CC. Maybe we should have some unit in H and M's lands to warn us of any serious military/naval build-up

I gifted Isa and Wash Physics (remember that for Isa, 2 other civs need it before she will trade it away!) but stubbornly they have refused to trade anything more with G.Does G have anything to trade to them? EDIT: Never mind, Isa needs Corp and Chem... Maybe Physics is just worth too much?

We don't want to give W and Isa any techs too soon, because then G might get left out in the cold.

@Gnejs, Washington has to be at pleased or above to be willing to trade with us a civics-change. That would show as +4 on the diplo screen. We'll get +2 from the OBs in about 50t, but to make up the other +3 we'd need a common war enemy or for W to adopt his favorite civic Free Speech and wait 20-30t. So that's not really likely in the near future.

Smash and Grab
When we can build the Space Elevator, we'll have to check carefully the lattitudes of our cities that can build it. G's weakest homeland cities are probably too far N. Kolhapur is probably the best candidate for the SE. By the time we are ready to build it I would hope G would have a much stronger presence on our side of the Gandhi-canal. It may be a good site for the 3GD too

Great Engineers
It will hard to prevent 1 of the next 2 GLs from popping in Bibracte. So to get 2 GEs, we'll need a minimum of 2700 GPPs in NH. {Once we have} IW and Factory we get 18GPPs/t = 150 turns. Statue of Liberty could help some, but the other 2 wonders will come so late with only max +3 GPPs they won't help much. Pacifism would halve the time. To complicate things, the UN will add 2GPP for GMerch.

Bottom line: I think more realistic is 1 GE + cashrush the remainder of Space Elevator/3Gs. The 2nd wonder might come from Fusion GE or our 2nd GE, whichever comes first.
You are probably right that popping 3 GEs (+1 for Fusion) is unrealistic. We should seriously consider a change to Pacifism when NH has IW built - it all depends how much infrastructure we need to build elsewhere. Pentagon probably won't help much - but is a wonder we want to build (rather than letting H build) so NH is as good a place as any

If we will need to build half the 3GD or SE with a GE and cash-rush the rest, then it is all the more important to beeline Fibre Optics and build the Internet. That way we can turn off research and concentrate on stockpiling gold.

Research
Looks pretty clear for now. We go for MM, then Computers, but squeeze in Biology very soon, partially with the GS bulb. Along the way we carefully monitor G and the others to see if we need to interrupt our research for a tech they need. We probably need Steam Power right after MM to give the 50% production bonus in NH for ther UN

Taj Mahal
This should finish toward the end of Erkon's turnset. Do we want to finish it at all or leave it 1 turn from completion for the gold rush? Do we want to finish it right now or save it for a little while? I am surprised no-one else has completed it yet. If we want a Golden Age (and with so many cities, it will be a good thing) then we probably want to finish it asap. So we should wait 1 turn for BC to grow to pop 12 then work maximum tiles and switch 1 farm to a workshop or watermill as you previously suggested. After the Taj we should consider pre-building (but not completing) the Hagia Sofia.

Murky Waters
Should we make a few double-promoted knights here to help with Surrounding? Knights are easy to manoevre to surround units than LBs. MW could also benefit from a theatre to allow us to run artists rather than scientists (a GA could speed up Radio or MM) - depends when the next MW GP is likely due. And of course, MW should run an engineer just in case we get lucky....

Ning Hsia
I think we should send a galleon-load of strong units here, to protect against a sneak attack.

We need to boost our army by knocking out a bunch of grenadiers and putting them in a number of key cities, not just NH. Madrid, Bibracte, Karak, Barca should all be well defended

At the risk of repeating what has been said before, it is very important that NH keeps its fat cross to allow maximum production. It will soon come under cultural pressure from H's and M's cities.

At present we can finish the IW in 25 turns by hiring an engineer (sooner once we irrigate the corn and build a few more farms and workshops) - MM will be finished in 28 turns at the present (sustainable) tech rate. It therefore makes a lot of sense to build a theatre in NH now. It will only take 3 turns, meaning that IW and MM will finish on the same turn and will give us an extra 150 :culture: points in NH by the time IW is built.

Similarly, a theatre in Besh is a good thing too as it will squish H's city from the other direction, limiting the number of tiles it can work and therefore the amount of culture producing buildings he can build

:culture: Culture :culture:

This is another double-edged sword for us, as we can see from CC. The more culture we put in cities that surround the cities we want to give to G, the less effective our Gift is. To give G an effective CC, we have to also give him GC, MW, and NS.

I don't know how the cultural percentages work for tiles, in other words, how much culture H gets for his inner cross versus us for the same tile, but in our fat cross. It would be nice, though, if we could ever get G to bulldozer us, to gift him a useful Karak and Besh.

...and that's all I have to say on that... "Forest Gump"

Turn zero:

Settled GG in Vienne (gets us +3 culture) and swapped to grenadier
General MM
Swapped to Drydocks in Samarqand (harbour wont help anything)
I will monitor the land% of a couple of tiles to understand where we need cultural buildings
Here we go then...

Turn 1 update

We are now 20 million people!
Isabella revolts to Judaism, Representation and Theocracy
Gandhi and Isabella are now pleased with each others :)
Lightbulbed 3 turns on Biology. Academy in Karak gives 38 bpt, lightbulb gives 3357 ~ 70 turns to catch up on lightbulb.
Continued with worker activity next to Ning Hsia (chopped forest to cut one turn on IW)
Setup worker bait for GC.
Started farming at Vienne to irrigate wheat => turn Vienne into better production city

Turn 2 update

Doh! Forgot to whip Banks previous turn :wallbash: Whipped Karak and Besh.
We're not loosing % on the tiles next to Ning-Hsia

Turn 3 update

Gandhi has moved two one LBM into our territory (one worker destroyed). :)
Encapsulating LBM close to GC, baiting other LBM
Started building grenadiers in a few cities
W. and G. are pleased with each other. W. is please with I, while she is cautious with W.
Gandhi has Military Tradition. :)
Corn at Ning-Hsia is now irrigated.
Lost a Galleon to Gandhi :)

Turn 4 update

I have uploaded since there's things to discuss: Hannibal switched to Theocracy, has Gandhi as worst enemy, and has his hands full.

We have >1000 bpt!

Note: I have not MM'ed the cities after Biology. Any advice is appreciated.

Session Turn Log from 1508 AD to 1526 AD:

Turn 308, 1508 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 36 ? for Gold City.
Turn 308, 1508 AD: You have discovered Replaceable Parts!
Turn 308, 1508 AD: Turfan will grow to size 12 on the next turn
Turn 308, 1508 AD: Vienne will grow to size 9 on the next turn
Turn 308, 1508 AD: Isabella adopts Representation!
Turn 308, 1508 AD: Isabella adopts Theocracy!
Turn 308, 1508 AD: Isabella converts to Judaism!

Turn 309, 1514 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Stone Island!
Turn 309, 1514 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Brown City!
Turn 309, 1514 AD: Cape Fish will grow to size 7 on the next turn
Turn 309, 1514 AD: Turfan has grown to size 12
Turn 309, 1514 AD: Vienne has grown to size 9
Turn 309, 1514 AD: Madrid will grow to size 12 on the next turn
Turn 309, 1514 AD: A Fishing Boats has been destroyed by a marauding Indian Galleon!

Turn 310, 1520 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Stone Island!
Turn 310, 1520 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Turfan!
Turn 310, 1520 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Samarqand!
Turn 310, 1520 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Brown City!
Turn 310, 1520 AD: You have trained Jewish Missionary in Marble City. Work has now begun on a Bank.
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Cape Fish has grown to size 7
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Old Sarai has grown to size 9
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Karak has grown to size 15
Turn 310, 1520 AD: You have constructed a Bank in Karak. Work has now begun on a Grocer.
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Verlamion will grow to size 12 on the next turn
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Bibracte will grow to size 15 on the next turn
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Gergovia will grow to size 8 on the next turn
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Stone Island has grown to size 7
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Madrid has grown to size 12
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Seville has grown to size 11
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Barcelona will grow to size 7 on the next turn
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Gandhi's Frigate (8.80) vs Murky Waters's Galleon (4.40)
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Combat Odds: 99.1%
Turn 310, 1520 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 310, 1520 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Murky Waters's Galleon is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Murky Waters's Galleon is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Murky Waters's Galleon is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Murky Waters's Galleon is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Gandhi's Frigate has defeated Murky Waters's Galleon!
Turn 310, 1520 AD: While defending, your Galleon was destroyed by a Indian Frigate!
Turn 310, 1520 AD: A Fishing Boats has been destroyed by a marauding Indian Frigate!
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Gandhi has reduced your defenses in Stone Island to 36%!
Turn 310, 1520 AD: While defending, your Worker was destroyed by a Indian Longbowman!
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Bibracte's cultural boundary is about to expand.

Turn 311, 1523 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Turfan!
Turn 311, 1523 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Stone Island!
Turn 311, 1523 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Stone Island!
Turn 311, 1523 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Gold City!
Turn 311, 1523 AD: Hinduism has spread in Cape Fish.
Turn 311, 1523 AD: You have discovered Biology!
Turn 311, 1523 AD: Murky Waters will grow to size 16 on the next turn
Turn 311, 1523 AD: Marble City will grow to size 11 on the next turn
Turn 311, 1523 AD: New Sarai will grow to size 12 on the next turn
Turn 311, 1523 AD: New Sarai will become unhappy on the next turn
Turn 311, 1523 AD: Verlamion has grown to size 12
Turn 311, 1523 AD: Bibracte has grown to size 15
Turn 311, 1523 AD: The borders of Bibracte have expanded!
Turn 311, 1523 AD: Gergovia has grown to size 8
Turn 311, 1523 AD: Madrid celebrates "We Love the Monarch Day"!!!
Turn 311, 1523 AD: Barcelona has grown to size 7
Turn 311, 1523 AD: Toledo will grow to size 7 on the next turn
Turn 311, 1523 AD: Gandhi's Frigate (8.80) vs Murky Waters's Caravel (3.60)
Turn 311, 1523 AD: Combat Odds: 99.7%
Turn 311, 1523 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 311, 1523 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 311, 1523 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 311, 1523 AD: Murky Waters's Caravel is hit for 30 (70/100HP)
Turn 311, 1523 AD: Murky Waters's Caravel is hit for 30 (40/100HP)
Turn 311, 1523 AD: Murky Waters's Caravel is hit for 30 (10/100HP)
Turn 311, 1523 AD: Murky Waters's Caravel is hit for 30 (0/100HP)
Turn 311, 1523 AD: Gandhi's Frigate has defeated Murky Waters's Caravel!
Turn 311, 1523 AD: While defending, your Caravel was destroyed by a Indian Frigate!
Turn 311, 1523 AD: A Fishing Boats has been destroyed by a marauding Indian Frigate!
Turn 311, 1523 AD: Hannibal adopts Theocracy!
Turn 311, 1523 AD: Abu Bakr (Great Prophet) has been born in Istanbul (Mehmed II)!
Turn 311, 1523 AD: New Tech(s) to trade: Gandhi

Turn 312, 1526 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Stone Island!
Turn 312, 1526 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Stone Island!
Turn 312, 1526 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Samarqand!
Turn 312, 1526 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Gold City!

Great stuff, Erkon!

I'm looking at the MM and I'll give you a list of my ideas, but right now the wife unit wants to check the wife unit's e-mail for 15 minutes...Yeah, right...when she says 5 minutes, it's usually 2 hours...

Good work. Going for Biology before Elec was probably the right move. BC, NH and GC are really looking good now with the extra food (although hopefully you will soon persuade G's LB to capture GC.)

2 points:
1. Do not (DO NOT) send the Jewish missionary to Izmir! It will start to generate Ottoman culture there - the last thing we want!
2. M is going to settle 1W of NHs iron - which will again complicate keeping control of the fat cross, and loses the forest you are currently chopping. He probably intends to garrison with the sword and LB that are currently W of Karak. If we close OB with M it may dissuade him from settling as the garrison cannot get there. I do not understand why you don't build a theatre in NH. It is such a vital prod centre that we need to keep it. If we can eliminate Izmir and H's city by cultural pressure into the bargain, then great. The sooner we build it, the sooner the culture points stack up. EDIT: You could also raze the gold mine with the chariot in NH to make any city less useful to M.

There is no need to research Mil Trad - G will trade it because H also knows it. Similarly there is probably no need to research rifling yet as no-one except H and M know Rep Parts yet.

The resource trade with M could be renegotiated (for a whole extra 1 gold!!!!)

We need a few more Old World Hindu missionaries to boost production in MC, Turfan, Samarqand and Stone Island.

The Bank in MC is probably not worth building as it has only a low base currency - a drydock would be more use instead

Good work. Going for Biology before Elec was probably the right move. BC, NH and GC are really looking good now with the extra food (although hopefully you will soon persuade G's LB to capture GC.)

2 points:
1. Do not (DO NOT) send the Jewish missionary to Izmir! It will start to generate Ottoman culture there - the last thing we want!
2. M is going to settle 1W of NHs iron - which will again complicate keeping control of the fat cross, and loses the forest you are currently chopping. He probably intends to garrison with the sword and LB that are currently W of Karak. If we close OB with M it may dissuade him from settling as the garrison cannot get there. I do not understand why you don't build a theatre in NH. It is such a vital prod centre that we need to keep it. If we can eliminate Izmir and H's city by cultural pressure into the bargain, then great. The sooner we build it, the sooner the culture points stack up. EDIT: You could also raze the gold mine with the chariot in NH to make any city less useful to M.

(1) - good point, didn't think of that.
(2) - it's not too late to switch, although I checked the tile % and it's not going down. The settler moved directly to the M. city. But you are right, it may be waiting for support.

Thoughts

BP is right, let's build that theater in Ning, play it safe. If the settker doesn't settle next turn , you kight send the wkr stack to chop that forest before it's too late.

MM
Ning Hsia: Build 1 more farm, the rest wkshps, including the spices.

The following are in order, if you start with MW and keep hitting the right arrow to cycle through.

MW: Don't need scientist, work food instead.
GC: Research is 25% better than wealth (library). If lb escapes, build non-culture bldg
CF: Work food, poprush non-culture bldgs
NS: Work food, popr non-culture bldgs
Karak: Let's not poprush here anymore, so we can jump palace here, hopefully.
Turfan: Work food, popr non-culture bldgs
Camul: Switch coastal to farm
Verlam: Switch build to university
Bibracte: NO ENGINEER!!! Never. KILL 'EM ALL! We don't want to pop a GL here if we can avoid it. Work food instead.
Vienne: Work plains farm instead of tundra mine
Stone Island: Food not engineer.

There is no need to research Mil Trad - G will trade it because H also knows it. Similarly there is probably no need to research rifling yet as no-one except H and M know Rep Parts yet.

The resource trade with M could be renegotiated (for a whole extra 1 gold!!!!)

When I've tried to negotiate deals in previous games, I normally can't do it, so I'm reluctant to cancel a deal that I may not get back...

If we close OB with M it may dissuade him from settling as the garrison cannot get there.

EDIT: You could also raze the gold mine with the chariot in NH to make any city less useful to M. Good idea.I wouldn't close borders with M. Becomes almost impossible to open again. Let him settle there, build the theater, UNLAX!

I feel strongly about this, btw, we don't need M getting POed right now.

When I've tried to negotiate deals in previous games, I normally can't do it, so I'm reluctant to cancel a deal that I may not get back...Not too worry. We have lots to trade to him. He'll trade. Once and ony once did I encounter a canceled trade not providing the gold again, but then next turn it was there again, but a few bucks less. (not this game-- a different one)

Anyway, BP and I have already done this during this game a few times. (Unbeknownst to you? :))

...
Bibracte: NO ENGINEER!!! Never. KILL 'EM ALL! We don't want to pop a GL here if we can avoid it. Work food instead.
...

Yesszzz - engineer. I like I like. Him very good. He will stay. So say I.... Hsssss.

Opps, sorry! There is no risk that a GL will pop there, and we need all production we can get in Bibracte. You need to come up with a better explanation why I should fire him :mischief:

I'll check the save tomorrow. Perhaps I can pillage a road to delay Mr M.

Yesszzz - engineer. I like I like. Him very good. He will stay. So say I.... Hsssss.

Opps, sorry! There is no risk that a GL will pop there, and we need all production we can get in Bibracte. You need to come up with a better explanation why I should fire him :mischief:Fire that Engineer or I sic Gnejs on you...

There's a HUGE chance we'll pop a GL here. If not at 1200, then at 1350 GPPs.

Oh, sorry, Erkon, I forgot you were the religious zealot type and are waiting for your saviour, the GREAT PROPHET. Forgive me...

The added engineer-production is not that big a deal if you poprush Hindu misses every 6 turns or so, but engineer eats up useful regrowth food.

Luckily your turnset will be over soon. Let's hope Gnejs listens to reason.

I wouldn't close borders with M. Becomes almost impossible to open again. Let him settle there, build the theater, UNLAX!

I feel strongly about this, btw, we don't need M getting POed right now.
OB will only be difficult to re-open if losing the +2 diplo mod drives M to Annoyed.
Anyway, what is the big deal if he gets annoyed with us? He currently won't trade with us because of WFYABTA and if he is so foolish as to DOW us (he won't) it gives us a great excuse to liberate a couple of Brennus's cities. Close the borders I say!

Thanks guys for the advice - I really appreciate it. I find it hard to keep track of everything I should keep track off!

But I think we need to talk about H. He will declare again soon. We may not be able to stop him this time. Will he target Gandhi (who has larger army?) or will he target Washington? We don't have any military to stop him. Perhaps it's time to build an army? :satan:

Fire that Engineer or I sick Gnejs on you...

There's a HUGE chance we'll pop a GL here. If not at 1200, then at 1350 GPPs.

Oh, sorry, Erkon, I forgot you were the religious zealot type and are waiting for your saviour, the GREAT PROPHET. Forgive me...

The added engineer-production is not that big a deal if you poprush Hindu misses every 6 turns or so, but engineer eats up useful regrowth food.

Luckily your turnset will be over soon. Let's hope Gnejs listens to reason.

I'll check the save and will correct if you are right. And just to get the facts straight: I'm not waiting for Mr Prophet! He's always one step behind. :lol:

OB will only be difficult to re-open if losing the +2 diplo mod drives M to Annoyed.
Anyway, what is the big deal if he gets annoyed with us? He currently won't trade with us because of WFYABTA and if he is so foolish as to DOW us (he won't) it gives us a great excuse to liberate a couple of Brennus's cities. Close the borders I say!Uncle.

Thanks guys for the advice - I really appreciate it. I find it hard to keep track of everything I should keep track off!

But I think we need to talk about H. He will declare again soon. We may not be able to stop him this time. Will he target Gandhi (who has larger army?) or will he target Washington? We don't have any military to stop him. Perhaps it's time to build an army? :satan:The probability that H will not DOW us at Pleased is 100%, although as I understand it, that's not a strict 100% but it's pretty unlikely.

Thoughts
GC: Research is 25% better than wealth (library). If lb escapes, build non-culture bldgIt actually makes no difference. The wealth or research (or culture) from production is added after the base commerce beakers (or gold) have been modified by libraries, banks, etc

It actually makes no difference. The wealth or research (or culture) from production is added after the base commerce beakers (or gold) have been modified by libraries, banks, etcOk, thanks. Nerd.

One more detail, Erkon, if you swap the GC wkr with the Knight to the S, Gandhi will have only one more turn to rescue his LB by sea (assuming he doesn't stay put on that tile. Then you can escort him by inland tiles to GC (or MW). It would take 4t nstead of 2 to lose GC, but might be a surer bet.

Ok, thanks. Nerd.
Perhaps they don't have that saying about the pot calling the kettle black in Slovenia?

Another one more thing. If you gift Isa Rep Parts, it may increase the chances of G doing a trade with her

Looking at the culture graphs, I'd say we're cranking out universities a lot faster than anyon else.

Perhaps they don't have that saying about the pot calling the kettle black in Slovenia?:blush: hard to slip one past you...

Another one more thing. If you gift Isa Rep Parts, it may increase the chances of G doing a trade with herCould be. May depend on when Mil Trad became tradeable in G's eyes--this turn or earlier? We need to be careful about not giving her too much, since she has physics.

EDIT: I wonder if there's any chance she's holding back because Mehmed is annoyed with G?

Uncle.

The probability that H will not DOW us at Pleased is 100%, although as I understand it, that's not a strict 100% but it's pretty unlikely.

How long has H been pleased with us? The AI decides to DoW some time in advance, and it is the relations at that point in time that decides. It won't even help to bring relations to friendly, if they have decided to declare war then they will no matter how relations improve.

This Hannibal business worries me. We should be prepared to either,

a) Declare on H first - not very appealing...
b) Bribe H to make peace, we need some techs for this
c) Bring in someone expendable into the war, e.g. if we can get Mehmed or W to declare first.

Oh, btw, nicely played so far Erkon. :p

How long has H been pleased with us? 36-42 turns.

This Hannibal business worries me. That's just Erkon trying to distract you from the engineer-in-Bibracte discussion. ;)

We should be prepared to either,

a) Declare on H first - not very appealing...
b) Bribe H to make peace, we need some techs for this NO WAR. LUV 'EM. LUV 'EM ALL!!!
c) Bring in someone expendable into the war, e.g. if we can get Mehmed or W to declare first.

Oh, btw, nicely played so far Erkon. :pI think we should risk running a light military and concentrate on the research + building infrastructure/key wonders for G. If someone declares on us it is not the end of the world. (Vienne should be building units, although some culture buildings are ok too)Uh...did someone press the panic button? ;)

H made his DOW decision, if he did at all, in the last 4 turns. Interesting detail that only Erkon can check is how that coincided with H's score graph passing G's, which seems to have happened just this turn.

H's power graph is not high enough to dogpile on G or us, I don't think, so it looks like it's probably W or Isa (no guarantees, of course).

Anyway, thought I warned you guys about H getting po'ed when Isabella or Wash doesn't give him the techs we're giving them? :cool:

BTW, guys, popping a Great Prophet isn't all that bad after all. I just realized we can use him to bulb...Future Tech.

Oh yeah.... :old:

One more detail, Erkon, if you swap the GC wkr with the Knight to the S, Gandhi will have only one more turn to rescue his LB by sea (assuming he doesn't stay put on that tile. Then you can escort him by inland tiles to GC (or MW). It would take 4t nstead of 2 to lose GC, but might be a surer bet.

Are you really concerned that Gandhi will evacuate the LBM with a Galleon? He can't even manage an invasion to an empty city... :crazyeye:

Uh...did someone press the panic button? ;)
...

I did! That's why I uploaded the save :D

I will build a few military units when there is no other suitable buildings.

If H. declares on G, I will try to bribe him to stop. Shall I bribe him incase he DoW W?

Raise your hand if anyone wants me to gift something to someone.

Are you really concerned that Gandhi will evacuate the LBM with a Galleon? He can't even manage an invasion to an empty city... :crazyeye:I don't know. He's a wimp. His favorite military maneuver is "RETREAT!". Do what you think will work. I'm just paranoid that he'll figure out a way to not take GC.:lol:

I did! That's why I uploaded the save :D

I will build a few military units when there is no other suitable buildings.

If H. declares on G, I will try to bribe him to stop. Shall I bribe him incase he DoW W? Yes. Even if it is not a disaster anymore if W becomes a H vassal, it would be better to have H, W, and M somewhat balanced. Otherwise it will be more difficult to make sure that they do not overtake Gandhi on the spaceship production.

Raise your hand if anyone wants me to gift something to someone.

:wavey: Yeah, please give me your new computer... :p

I will build a few military units when there is no other suitable buildings. And move some over from the New Homeland. Positioned around Karak, they can come to the rescue as needed or be upgraded to Grenadiers...

If H. declares on G, I will try to bribe him to stop. Shall I bribe him incase he DoW W?Yes, let's try to keep the peace.

Just had a long, good look at the save. And...

Mehmed also has too much on his hands right now! Oh boy, this could get interesting. :)
I definitely think we need the UN sooner than later. No more tech detours please, unless it is really, really necessary. (Like getting rifles to defend against H's cavalry... ;) )

Some other observations:

We have no intelligence from M or H. Should be top priority for our missionaries to go there.
We can build the globe theatre someplace. This should be especially handy in a food-rich city so we can whip units every few turns
Versailles can still be built. We could put it up in MW or BC to help G


But, all this is unimportant until the various invasion threats have been dealt with. We definitely should have a look at Mehmeds border cities to see if there are any troops massing there.

Mehmed also has too much on his hands right now! Oh boy, this could get interesting. :)
I definitely think we need the UN sooner than later. No more tech detours please, unless it is really, really necessary. (Like getting rifles to defend against H's cavalry... ;) )

Some other observations:

We have no intelligence from M or H. Should be top priority for our missionaries to go there.
We can build the globe theatre someplace. This should be especially handy in a food-rich city so we can whip units every few turns
Versailles can still be built. We could put it up in MW or BC to help G


But, all this is unimportant until the various invasion threats have been dealt with. We definitely should have a look at Mehmeds border cities to see if there are any troops massing there.We have plenty of Berserkers over by M, upgraded to Grenadiers and M has nothing on us. But this definitely argues against Captain Big Pig's fetish with canceling OBs with him.

What we need are a few frigates down by H monitoring his port cities and one near Birne. (In addition to the missionaries.)

Mehmed also has too much on his hands right now! Oh boy, this could get interesting. :)
I definitely think we need the UN sooner than later. No more tech detours please, unless it is really, really necessary.
The UN's Free Religion resolution wouldn't do anything to reduce eminity between Mehmed and anyone, or between H and W as both M and W already have FR. The only relations it would improve are between H and G - and with a hidden negmod of around -5 they are still going to be pretty frosty even after G gets FR.

The main benefit of the UN is the world economy

(The no nukes resolution would of course reduce the impact of major war - but will not actually promote peace, and nuclear weapons are a way in the future)

We have plenty of Berserkers over by M, upgraded to Grenadiers and M has nothing on us. But this definitely argues against Captain Big Pig's fetish with canceling OBs with him.


Buaaaaah pah pah pah pah cluck cluck buah pah pah pah :mischief:

Explain to me again how cancelling OBs with M affects who H is likely to DOW on....

Buaaaaah pah pah pah pah cluck cluck buah pah pah pah :mischief:

Explain to me again how cancelling OBs with M affects who H is likely to DOW on....Gnejs is talking about M DOWing someone.

Bibracte is almost certain to pop a GP before NH pops 3 engineers (it will be 20 turns before we can run 3 engineers in NH - and ages before we can run 4). So, wouldn't it be better to increase the odds of the GP in Bibracte being a GE by running an engineer?

Gnejs is talking about M DOWing someone.

We have plenty of Berserkers over by M, upgraded to Grenadiers and M has nothing on us.

Exactly. And if M were to DOW we could mop up his pesky cities in our Homeland like Izmir and Gazientep - and finish off Brennus.

Which reminds me - I'm not sure there is much benefit in keeping Brennus alive. He is so backwards that he isn't giving G any reduction in tech costs. And he is never going to trade with G.

EDIT: However, losing the +2 openborder mod will not get M to annoyed with us - and in theory should not alter his propensity to DOW us

The UN's Free Religion resolution wouldn't do anything to reduce eminity between Mehmed and anyone, or between H and W as both M and W already have FR. The only relations it would improve are between H and G - and with a hidden negmod of around -5 they are still going to be pretty frosty even after G gets FR.

The main benefit of the UN is the world economy

(The no nukes resolution would of course reduce the impact of major war - but will not actually promote peace, and nuclear weapons are a way in the future)

No nukes? Why on earth would we pass that? Well, perhaps after we have used up our own nukes... :)

On the topic of the UN, it is our best and only(?) tool to improve relations. Forcing G and H to go FR makes it worth it in itself, then there is the added bonus that we can make all adopt G's and W's favourite civics. And if we stay away from an Environmentalism resolution we might see Gandhi adopt H's favourite too, especially once we pass the Single Currency. All those extra trade routes may finally shift G from Mercantilism.

Compare all this to what any three other techs that we could research would enable, and I think there is no doubt that we should be teching towards MM now.

I'm shutting down research for two turns to get enough gold for a panic upgrade. Then I'll go for 100% research, so I won't loose any turns on electricity.

M. doesn't have that many units close to us or W.
7 units in Edirne
5 units in Konya

M. is upset with W. that he has traded with M's worst enemy. I fear that Gandhi will be attacked by both M. and H.

Gandhi has frigates, M and H does not, so he'll be fine until M. and H. gets chemistry.

Bibracte is almost certain to pop a GP before NH pops 3 engineers (it will be 20 turns before we can run 3 engineers in NH - and ages before we can run 4). So, wouldn't it be better to increase the odds of the GP in Bibracte being a GE by running an engineer?If we get past 1200 and 1350, Bibracte won't being popping anything, not at 6 GPPs/t.

EDIT: At 6/t it's 113 turns away. Wall Street ads 1 so let's say 100 turns away. For the next 150 that 22 more turns. So the question is when will NS pop 1st, 2nd, 3rd? Maybe Bibracte will pop one, but I still think it's better later than sooner.

Okay, if we run the GE, when can push the GP down to something likr 55-60%. I guess that worth it in any case.

ERKON, keep the engineer hired in Bibracte.

Which reminds me - I'm not sure there is much benefit in keeping Brennus alive. He is so backwards that he isn't giving G any reduction in tech costs. And he is never going to trade with G.When the AIs stop trading techs, it's in our interest to have as many AIs alive as possible. We research the tech, gift to to everyone, it becomes cheaper for G to research.

We enable AIs to tech fast, we stop them from building space parts by sabotaging their aluminum and hammers.

For that matter, once they stop trading, we can beat them down all we want, just not kill them.

On the topic of the UN, it is our best and only(?) tool to improve relations. Forcing G and H to go FR makes it worth it in itself, then there is the added bonus that we can make all adopt G's and W's favourite civics. And if we stay away from an Environmentalism resolution we might see Gandhi adopt H's favourite too, especially once we pass the Single Currency. All those extra trade routes may finally shift G from Mercantilism. I hear you, Gnejs. (Just so you don't feel like you're talking to the wall... ;) )

Compare all this to what any three other techs that we could research would enable, and I think there is no doubt that we should be teching towards MM now.Agreed. As long as we don't become vulnerable, especially navally.

I'm shutting down research for two turns to get enough gold for a panic upgrade. Then I'll go for 100% research, so I won't loose any turns on electricity. Good idea.

M. doesn't have that many units close to us or W.
7 units in Edirne
5 units in Konya

M. is upset with W. that he has traded with M's worst enemy. I fear that Gandhi will be attacked by both M. and H.

Gandhi has frigates, M and H does not, so he'll be fine until M. and H. gets chemistry.We would be wise to have a strong navy to protect G with as a last resort.

I've started Globe Theatre in Verlamion

EDIT: I have just fired the Engineer in Bibracte, then i read Mr Schizo's post, so I will hire him back and press next turn before I/someone else have a change of mind :lol:

No nukes? Why on earth would we pass that? Well, perhaps after we have used up our own nukes... :)

On the topic of the UN, it is our best and only(?) tool to improve relations. Forcing G and H to go FR makes it worth it in itself, then there is the added bonus that we can make all adopt G's and W's favourite civics. And if we stay away from an Environmentalism resolution we might see Gandhi adopt H's favourite too, especially once we pass the Single Currency. All those extra trade routes may finally shift G from Mercantilism.

Compare all this to what any three other techs that we could research would enable, and I think there is no doubt that we should be teching towards MM now.
I think we all agree we need to beeline MM and build the UN for the trade benefits. I'm just not convinced the UN is going to produce the major love-fest you envisage. For example, I don't think that you get the 'favourite civic' bonuses if the choice has been enforced by the UN. We shall see.... ;)

EDIT: I have just fired the Engineer in Bibracte, then i read Mr Schizo's post, so I will hire him back and press next turn before I/someone else have a change of mind :lol:

FIRE THE ENGINEER!

:joke:

EDIT: I have just fired the Engineer in Bibracte, then i read Mr Schizo's post, so I will hire him back and press next turn before I/someone else have a change of mind :lol:Haven't you noticed yet that I always agree with BP?

I just think I'm right till BP corrects me.

Haven't you noticed yet that I always agree with BP?

I just think I'm right till BP corrects me.

Hope you've closed those borders with Mehmed then Erkon :lol:

Turn 5 update.

Darn. Gandhi kills my Knight (he had 69% in favour) and the LBM slips out of the encirclement. OTOH this shows that G. is getting braver. I should have placed two knights next to G. Perhaps the LBM would have stayed anyway though.

I am thinking of gifting Replacable Parts to W. and I. This may be tradable with G?

M. settler retreated :) - got the chop

Edit: I noticed a few M. units close to W. No activity close to us. The units next to Karak may be OTW to the W. city

Turn 6 update

Gandhi stole worker close to GC again. This time I will use LBM to encircle him.

Hinduism spread to Edirne.

W. has Mil Trad and is will to trade for it (Steel will do fine).

Perhaps we should gift R.P. to Isabella and hope that she will trade with G?

Electricity done.

I will stop here tonight, didn't play that much, but I want to know if I should trade with W. and if I should gift tech to I.