Welcome to your C_IV Warlords SGOTM 4 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

The Game
This Monarch difficulty game is on a Standard size, Gyathaar-special, fractal map, at Epic speed, against 7 rivals including India. All victory conditions are enabled except Diplomatic, but the laurels for this contest will be awarded to the teams who achieve the fastest Space defeat by Gandhi.

Versions
This game will be played in Warlords Version 2.08 only.

It will be played using the current version of the HoF Mod. This is version 2.08.003 for Windows. There are insufficient Mac players to form a Mac team. so it will be played in Windows only.

If later versions of Warlords or the HoF Mod are released they cannot be used for this game.

Your start file will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php) at midnight, server local time, at the start of February 23.

Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm4_start_small.jpg (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm4_start_large.jpg)

Map Parameters
Playable Leader/Civ - Ragnar of The Vikings
Rivals - 7 civs including Gandhi (who is locked in war with Ragnar)
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Monarch
Landform - Fractal, cylindrical, medium sea level, temperate
Game Speed - Epic
Diplomatic Victory Disabled
All other settings are defaults

Notes

Please visit the C-IV Warlords SGOTM reference thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208462) to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.

Warlords v.2.08 is supported for this SGOTM. No other versions can be used, and you will have to stick with the same version throughout the game.

Teams will compete for up to four awards - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher.

Awards will be given to teams who achieve Space defeats to India in the least turns.

All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

Please enjoy the game :)

Signing in.
Settle in place or 2 north?
Worker or work boat first?

Space checking in. :)

The current position is high on food but poor on luxes. Moving north will keep all the food bonusses but it's always a gamble. Looking closely at the coast line it seems possible we'll just find water up north.

Workboat allows us to grow a bit before building the worker.

Regarding overall strat. How do we help Gandhi while being at war? Straight gifting will not work. We are lucky that Gandhi will prioritise the spaceship in the later game. Trading techs will help lowering research costs for them, but also for all the others. I smell war to keep the others from making use of it... :scan:

Well, building work boat we still will not grow, because that would be build as fast as possible.
It's pretty sure that's best after some thought and we should follow it immediately by a worker w/o growing in between.


For Gandhi I assume we try the same in principle as was tried w/o much success in the civ3 version.
Tech fast, kill or cripple the others. Have one weakling available to gift all necessary techs.
Let Gandhi capture cities with nice wonders, including internet, space elevator and three gorges dam at least.

checking in.

first move: scout NW,NW.

I thing that 2N is looking more promising, especially production wise.

we should probably tech for worker techs while building a workboat.

overall strategy will have to take into account India postion. If they are locked like previous SGOTM, we might consider the same strategy, otherwise we might let the develop fast by clearing up the territory for them

Moving the settler is a pure crapshot as we cannot really find anything with the scout move. We gain some hills, but lose the forested hills for early MM options.
I'm now leaning to just settle in place. It's a good starting position and maybe there are other resources we just can't see (copper, horses, iron).
Build order would be work boat ASAP (10 turns 4sh + 1f, 1 turn 5sh +0f). Growing and building the work boat slower comes out about the same for growth, but working the clams earlier gives quite a bit more commerce.
Then worker immediately.
Research agri and mining, no matter which sequence, both will complete before the worker is out.
Then comes the first real decision, AH (AH before mining doesn't really help much, because the worker has to improve the corn first) or BW. AH will be pretty quick with 2 prerequisites, so that's my choice. But BW with the option to pop (and/or chop) rush the first settler instead of hand building with lots of food surplus is also an option.

Checking in.

Civ3 version showed severe problems getting India to actually complete SS parts. Getting them the techs was less of a problem trough using a third small AI to gift all techs to and then "allow" Gandhi to cature the GLib.

But basically I think this game will boil down the the same issue, getting him to actually build the darn thing.

This game: Move scout first. But maybe use him to assess the situation in the south rather than the obvious NW,NW? That would help us determine if moving settler 2N is a good idea? And if teher is a good site for a second location in the grassland just below him? It could be on a river, it looks like an estuary to me?

The NW move of the scout is prudent, because it shows us the tile we would lose, if we go 2 north with the settler (could still be a resource).
I don't see that south would gain us anything in the immediate decision.

civ_steve checking in ... finally! Greetings a space oddity and Wotan! Welcome to Team Peanut!

Regarding capital - going South isn't an option; the mountain space isn't usable and that circle doesn't appear to have fresh water. (And we want to be coastal for our capital). So moving the Scout to the hill to see why that circle is there can wait.

Founding in place would be fine!

Going North would get us the same food bonuses, the same fresh water source. The circle'd space appears to be a Grassland / Hills / Forest, so we would lose the extra shield and the ability to chop the forest later. That's balanced against what we might find. Also, moving North would cause less overlap with a city founded near the Southern circle.

There's definite loss vs possible gain in going North. I'd found where we are. So Scout is now free to go where ever.

klarius's suggestion for WB, then Worker sounds good, as does the AGRI/MIN research path. I'm leaning towards AH, but BW is also sound, after the initial research

We still need malekithe and ainwood to check in.

Let's set up a tentative roster, and since we're still working on the (hopefully soon) end of SGOTM3, I suggest that the new members play first.

Tentative roster:

a space oddity
Wotan
malekithe
klarius
MailMan
civ_steve
ainwood

Long term strategy topics:

There's been a lot of discussion regarding vassals in the maintenance thread. I think the final ruling is pretty clear - if peace with Gandhi occurs due to Vassal States, declare on his master (permanent until vassalage subsides, if it does). If its within 10 turns of a prior peace with his master, send to Gyathaar for modification. Immediately!

There is an issue with WW. And how to handle it. Could be a real bear in the late stages.

And of course, how to get Gandhi to launch.

Does WW work the same in locked war as it does in a normal game? (not that I have much experience in that regard, my wars tend to be short... :lol: )

Kia ora, all. Thanks to klarius for the prompt.... :blush:

The circle'd space appears to be a Grassland / Hills / Forest, so we would lose the extra shield and the ability to chop the forest later.

Both our starting position and 2 north are plains hills. So the extra shield in the city center is not lost. There seem to be some more hills in the north and we might trade ocean tiles for land or coast tiles. But we lose some forests, both for cutting and early MM. Settling in place allows the work boat to come out earlier, because we can work the forested hills.
I doubt that there is anything great in the north. Gyathaar would probably not want the gamblers doing much better than the conservative players.
So it probably doesn't matter and I'm fine with both.

War weariness (at least with Gandhi) shouldn't be a problem. There is no need that we fight in Gandhi's land and that's what makes WW in CIV. Defending the home land gives no WW.
It's quite the opposite of civ3, where aggressive attacking kept WW low and defending increased it.

War weariness (at least with Gandhi) shouldn't be a problem. There is no need that we fight in Gandhi's land and that's what makes WW in CIV. Defending the home land gives no WW.
It's quite the opposite of civ3, where aggressive attacking kept WW low and defending increased it.
That's good to know. :) We might want to defend his homeland at some stage though. Which will be tricky to do without provoking him sending his troops our way.

Probably the best way to defend his territory is to declare on his enemies. Then we can weaken them, allowing Gandhi to expand.

Both our starting position and 2 north are plains hills.D'oh, of course they are ... no food! Still, founding to the north would take out a 3 shield space and a forest.

If this game is anything like Civ3 version was, Gandhi will be "surrounded" by us and thus protected from the wrath of the other AI.

Founding in place seems to be the option favoured by a majority as far as I can see from posts.

Whoops, completely forgot this was starting so soon. Checking in. Nothing to add at the moment, but that'll change soon enough.

Is everybody agreed on the rosted Steve posted? Since I'm top of that list: how many turns in the first run? 30? 40? Do we need more discussion before I play?

Gist of the ideas for the first turns seems to be:
settle in place
production: WB (asap), worker
techs: agri, mining, AH, BW

Anything else?

Under the assumption the roster is OK: "got it".

The roster is Ok with me.
I would say play to some natural breakpoint.
Techwise my take is agri, mining then AH or BW, but the other of these two probably has to wait after TW.
WB (11), worker (15), warrior (11 at max growth) takes 37 turns total. There's nothing to decide there until then.
Agri, mining, AH is 36 turns, if I calculated correctly. That would make a nice breakpoint with the information revealed by AH.

I would say go ahead, space. :) If something weird happens, pop in with it.

I'll be out on travel tomorrow and back Tuesday night, so I'll probably be out of touch.

Done!

The save is here. I'll post the report a little later. I had one :weed: though, started tech-ing one turn late. I forgot how tense playing for the team could be, even with the turns pre-cooked, sorry. :blush: The rest went OK though. (I found Gandhi...!)

Started scouting west with the following result:http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/SpaceOddity_2001/GoldHills.jpg

Then turned North finding our first bogey:http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/SpaceOddity_2001/FirstBogey.jpg
Our scout survives, no promotion.

Then Buddhism is founded, but not by Gandhi. Interesting ... the North passage is blocked:http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/SpaceOddity_2001/Buddhism_Cut.jpg

We survive a Panther attack, the Scout gets a Woodman upgrade. Found Gandhi... why am I not surprised... ?! :lol: Gem mines ready and all... :goodjob:http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/SpaceOddity_2001/ThoughtSo.jpg
The hut gives us 58 gold.

AH reveals Horses and that's a nice point to stop. Overview of the turf:http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/SpaceOddity_2001/Overview.jpg
Red arrow is us, purple is Gandhi.

I've left the worker in a spot where the choice for Horses or Pigs can still be made. Started The Wheel, but no beakers went there yet.
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/SpaceOddity_2001/2980BC.jpg

Turn 0, 4000 BC: GroundnutHill has been founded.

Turn 11, 3670 BC: You have discovered Mining!

Turn 12, 3640 BC: Buddhism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 20, 3400 BC: Barbarian's Lion (2.00) vs Peanut's Scout (2.70)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: Combat Odds: 21.3%
Turn 20, 3400 BC: (Animal Combat: +20%)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: (Class Animal Combat: +100%)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: Peanut's Scout is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: Peanut's Scout is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: Peanut's Scout is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: Peanut's Scout is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: Peanut's Scout has defeated Barbarian's Lion!

Turn 21, 3370 BC: You have discovered Agriculture!

Turn 22, 3340 BC: The villagers give you gold! You have received 58 gold!

Turn 30, 3100 BC: Barbarian's Panther (2.00) vs Peanut's Scout (2.95)
Turn 30, 3100 BC: Combat Odds: 10.6%
Turn 30, 3100 BC: (Animal Combat: +20%)
Turn 30, 3100 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 30, 3100 BC: (Class Animal Combat: +100%)
Turn 30, 3100 BC: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 30, 3100 BC: Peanut's Scout is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 30, 3100 BC: Peanut's Scout is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 30, 3100 BC: Barbarian's Panther is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 30, 3100 BC: Peanut's Scout is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 30, 3100 BC: Peanut's Scout is hit for 16 (36/100HP)
Turn 30, 3100 BC: Peanut's Scout is hit for 16 (20/100HP)
Turn 30, 3100 BC: Barbarian's Panther is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 30, 3100 BC: Peanut's Scout is hit for 16 (4/100HP)
Turn 30, 3100 BC: Barbarian's Panther is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 30, 3100 BC: Barbarian's Panther is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 30, 3100 BC: Barbarian's Panther is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 30, 3100 BC: Peanut's Scout has defeated Barbarian's Panther!

Turn 33, 3010 BC: You have discovered Animal Husbandry!
Turn 33, 3010 BC: You have discovered a source of Horse near GroundnutHill!

Nice resources around us - gold and gems for commerce and happiness, sea food, horses and sheep.

I suggest going to the wheel, build a settler when we reach size 3 and couple of chariots for barb defense.
after the wheel, go to BW and chop a tree to speed up the settler and revel the copper.

after BW I would go the mysticism to build obelisk in the second city. I see that city 2E of the fish to grab 2 gold and be on plain hill we fresh water.
another good location for that city is 1S of the previous suggestion. it could steal the capital horses to work more hills and will not require obelisk so fast.

the worker should first work the pigs, horses should come after that.

OK, I guess I am up now and will probably try to play tomorrow evening CET. Or before heading to work tomorrow morning if it the consensus is that it is pretty straightforward. I would like some more input from those on the team with more experience of CIV.

1st settler, 2E of fish is pretty low on food while the one just S of that (plains) adds another grassland and borrow the capitals pig. So I would go for the latter. Anyone wanna talk me out of that idea?

1st settler, 2E of fish is pretty low on food while the one just S of that (plains) adds another grassland and borrow the capitals pig. So I would go for the latter. Anyone wanna talk me out of that idea?OK I'll try ;): plains hill gives an extra hammer in the city tile, and the soutern strip the city gains in the fat cross is poor food wise, the city will never be able to use those, while it's northern counter part has commerce and might be useful with watermills.

See, that wasn't difficult. ;) OK, the "northern part" is probably what is not showing in your last pic. So there are good tiles in that row? I am not sure about CIV and what constitutes good protocol? Can i open the save, look at it, discuss with you guys, then open it again and play when we are in agreement? I have yet to open it, don't want to make any mistakes in save management.

Well, it did never cross my mind that anybody would consider to settle 2E of the fish.
The strength of the city in that vicinity is the gold and we need immediate food to work it. Not a city which will take forever to culture expand and hasn't a decent tile before that.
The only other position I considered is the empty desert hill, which gets again all 3 gold, the pigs and later a corn. But it's not on fresh water and the corn can be put to good use by a city on the southwestern river (which we will not settle before we at least see iron working on the horizon).
So the plains river tile sharing the pigs, is the obvious best IMO.
The capital doesn't need the pigs in the long run. It has ample food for it's tiles by the other two food resources, so not sharing the pigs would be waste anyway (we would anyway not want to work the tile most of the time, when we are cruising at the happy limit).
We want the pigs now improved first, because it adds one more production to the settler build than the horses (it's 6 food compared to 2 food 3 hammers).

Science should continue with the wheel. We need to connect our resources and cities. I'm not sure what we want then. With the horses soon to be connected BW is not that urgent. We could get pottery or writing (or even both) before.

Well, it did never cross my mind that anybody would consider to settle 2E of the fish.Well, now you know...:yeah: I'm just patient that way... But you're right, using the pigs it'll be useful much sooner. I'll gladly take the advise of you guys.

@Wotan: the second to last picture shows the northern tiles: 1 coastal, 2 riverside plains.

OK, so back to the plains/river tile then. Re-corrected I guess. ;)

And playing until Wheel is researched seems like a good break point, 11 turns according to a pic.

Well, there is still another decision to take now.
Do we feel lucky and go for the settler in 3 turns, when the warrior completes, or do we build a second warrior first.
Human barbs will appear somewhere on the map before the settler completes, so a warrior has to clear the path in front of the settler.
With some really bad luck, a barb warrior could already go for the empty capital exactly when the settler comes out.

I think the risk is really tiny and would go for it.
If you're less confident, still don't build a second warrior, but put one turn into into a warrior at high hammers, shortly before the settler completes (to avoid decay of hammers). This allows to complete the warrior within 2 turns after the settler, which is enough that no unseen barb can attack before it completes.

Wotan, I think you should play at least to when the settler comes out, which is later than when wheel completes. The next research doesn't really matter much. We will anyway research BW, pottery and writing soon and none of these is really urgent (we have enough to do for the worker with TW and also don't have time to build a granary or library in the capital currently).

OK, will play in a couple of hours time.

Settler after Warrior it is.

Research, Wheel -> BW

And i will play until the Settler is ready but will leave him in the capital for the next player to deal with.

I'd seriously consider founding the second city on the desert hill. Fresh water is nice but not critical. Founding here leaves the fish to be worked, along with clams, by a later city to be build 2W 1S of the fish.

It's hard to decide without seeing more territory to the south.

Those will be visible after Wotans' round, the scout had to heal two times during mine.

Turn log

0 – 2980BC
Hit return

1 – 2950BC
Worker move to Pigs and start building a pasture.

2 – 2920BC
Nada

3 – 2890BC
GroundnutHill Warrior -> Settler

IBT: Panther attack our Scout; Scout wounded and require 5 turns to heal.

4 – 2860BC
Nada

5 – 2830BC
Nada

6 – 2800BC
Pasture finished, Settler now in 9 turns.

7 – 2770BC
We meet Genghis.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/28942/wot2770.JPG

8 – 2740BC
Hinduism founded in a distant land.
Worker starts building a pasture in the horse tile.

IBT: Warrior defeats a Panther.

9 – 2710BC
Nada

IBT: Scout survives an attack by a Lion.
Gandhi converts to Hinduism.

10 – 2680BC
Nada

11 – 2650BC
Wheel researched, starting on BW.

12 – 2620BC
Nada

13 – 2590BC
Horse pasture ready.

14 – 2560BC
Worker starts building a road in the horse tile.
My wife bumps into me when I am about to move the Warrior into the Forest S of Pigs so he ends up in G-Hill instead… Is this something that could jeopardize our marriage? Well the warrior will not be in position to bust the fog on the turn the settler arrives there so I guess we have a situation that is not that good.

15 – 2530BC
GroundnutHill Settler -> Warrior


After Action Report

Have set the next build to warrior but this was just to have something in the build queue.

BW in 12 turns, at least with the current configuration of tiles worked.

Scout healed again next turn.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/28942/wot2530.JPG
Here is your Session Turn Log from 2980 BC to 2530 BC:


Turn 37, 2890 BC: Barbarian's Panther (2.00) vs Peanut's Scout (2.90)
Turn 37, 2890 BC: Combat Odds: 11.1%
Turn 37, 2890 BC: (Animal Combat: +20%)
Turn 37, 2890 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 37, 2890 BC: (Feature: +20%)
Turn 37, 2890 BC: (Class Animal Combat: +100%)
Turn 37, 2890 BC: Barbarian's Panther is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 37, 2890 BC: Barbarian's Panther is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 37, 2890 BC: Barbarian's Panther is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 37, 2890 BC: Peanut's Scout is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 37, 2890 BC: Barbarian's Panther is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 37, 2890 BC: Peanut's Scout is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 37, 2890 BC: Peanut's Scout is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 37, 2890 BC: Barbarian's Panther is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 37, 2890 BC: Peanut's Scout has defeated Barbarian's Panther!

Turn 41, 2770 BC: Hinduism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 42, 2740 BC: Gandhi converts to Hinduism!
Turn 42, 2740 BC: Barbarian's Panther (2.00) vs Peanut's Warrior (2.60)
Turn 42, 2740 BC: Combat Odds: 23.1%
Turn 42, 2740 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 42, 2740 BC: (Animal Combat: +20%)
Turn 42, 2740 BC: Peanut's Warrior is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 42, 2740 BC: Barbarian's Panther is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 42, 2740 BC: Peanut's Warrior is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 42, 2740 BC: Peanut's Warrior is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 42, 2740 BC: Barbarian's Panther is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 42, 2740 BC: Barbarian's Panther is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 42, 2740 BC: Peanut's Warrior is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 42, 2740 BC: Peanut's Warrior is hit for 17 (15/100HP)
Turn 42, 2740 BC: Barbarian's Panther is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 42, 2740 BC: Barbarian's Panther is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 42, 2740 BC: Peanut's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Panther!

Turn 43, 2710 BC: Barbarian's Lion (2.00) vs Peanut's Scout (2.90)
Turn 43, 2710 BC: Combat Odds: 11.1%
Turn 43, 2710 BC: (Animal Combat: +20%)
Turn 43, 2710 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 43, 2710 BC: (Feature: +20%)
Turn 43, 2710 BC: (Class Animal Combat: +100%)
Turn 43, 2710 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 43, 2710 BC: Peanut's Scout is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 43, 2710 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 43, 2710 BC: Peanut's Scout is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 43, 2710 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 43, 2710 BC: Peanut's Scout is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 43, 2710 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 43, 2710 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 43, 2710 BC: Peanut's Scout has defeated Barbarian's Lion!

Turn 44, 2680 BC: You have discovered The Wheel!

Those southern lands look good! :thumbsup:

Desert hill city looks good to me. Otherwise we aren't likely to build a city that uses that corn for quite a while (need Iron Working and multiple workers to clear jungle). I'd start with the corn/3gold 4W of capital, planning to build three cities along the southwest river, in time (clams/fish at 8W 2N, 2clams/2gems at 9W 1S, 2sugar/spices/horse at 6W 6S).

We have so many good city sites, it's an embarrassment of riches.

Ok, got it. I agree with DaviddesJ about settling on the desert hill. Settling away from fresh water is a non-issue (we already have 3 health resources). I'm a bit confused why we don't have a warrior out scouting ahead of the settler. This will cost us a couple of turns settling the city, as I'm not willing to take a risk moving the settler into unexplored lands on his own (been burned too many times). I understand the warrior needed to heal, but he most certainly did not need to be in the capital to do so.

What are people's opinions regarding our production schedule in the capital and our future research? We'll need another worker sometime soon, and probably another settler soon after. Chariots should probably be sprinkled in there to eliminate any barb threat whatsoever. Research-wise, we need to prioritize iron working, but I'm not sure it's the most important thing after bronze. We have the potential for at least 4 quality cities before we ever need to set foot in the jungle. Still, though, I'd put it on a short list of techs we need ASAP. I'd leen toward maybe pottery, writing, then iron. That means granaries and a library or two need to be built as well.

In general, we've got a lot of opportunity here. Were we playing for our own victory, this game would likely already be won, simply from the gift of abundant land. How to convert that gift into success for Gandhi is something we'll have to figure out over time.

So what do you guys think?

The original idea was to have the Settler move NW and we settle on the river plains. To be ahead of the Settler the warrior would need to be on the forest south of the pigs this turn. I thought I made a note about the reason he is not in my notes so the confusion you talk about Malekithe should not have been an issue had you read my turn log???:(

I still prefer the river plains tile over the desert hill. Less overlap with the capital, coastal, fresh water.
The corn can for sure be put to good use by another city at some time (remember this is going to be a looong game).
But we aren't guaranteed to get a good city site for the fish, if Gandhi settles somewhere across the straight.

I don't think we need to research IW ourselves. We should get some scouting boats out ASAP, meet some more people (if possible) and head for alphabet and tech trading.
So pottery-writing is fine. But then I would do either alphabet directly or maybe sailing first to build trading posts for faster sea scouting (and more food).

We definitely need libraries in both our two first cities fast. And we need at least 1 more worker soon. More cities are not that urgent. We have places for decent cities, but they will not add much science output compared to our first 2 cities.
I don't know, if we find a good way to help Gandhi, but fast research is definitely needed.

We need to know more about the world, but my general idea for helping Gandhi is, that we will let him have our cities we are a building now at some time. So we should look for some far away place where we can retreat then.
Probably it will be only very late in game when most of the space techs are already researched. He should then get cities with all useful improvements and maybe a few academies. If we can get him the internet, we can fill him in on missing techs.
The space elevator and three gorges could boost his building rate.
Every non expiring happiness wonder would be useful.

I thought I made a note about the reason he is not in my notes so the confusion you talk about Malekithe should not have been an issue had you read my turn log???:(
Apologies, I merely skimmed your notes. Rereading I see the reason was beyond your control. ;)

Apologies, I merely skimmed your notes. Rereading I see the reason was beyond your control. ;)Unfortunately not beyond my control. I should not have used the drag/drop function with the mouse I guess. Had I used keyboard this would not have happened. If anyone should apologize it should be me... :(

I vote for the plain tile as the second city.
It can work the pigs from the start, going to size 2, than whip obelisk. after that it will have fish and pigs for extra 7 food (8 with trading post) to work all the gold mines and even extra low food tile. with windmills it can work the 2 grass hills without food loss.
later on we might build a city that will take one of the gold hills and therefore free other tiles for that city.
this city can produce ~35 commerce per turn in less than 50 turns (3 gold mines + fish and maybe some other water tile)

I vote for the plain tile as the second city.
It can work the pigs from the start, going to size 2, than whip obelisk. after that it will have fish and pigs for extra 7 food (8 with trading post) to work all the gold mines and even extra low food tile. with windmills it can work the 2 grass hills without food loss.
later on we might build a city that will take one of the gold hills and therefore free other tiles for that city.
this city can produce ~35 commerce per turn in less than 50 turns (3 gold mines + fish and maybe some other water tile)

All of these arguments apply equally to settling on the desert-hill tile. However, the desert hill city avoids having to spend time on a workboat and can, instead, simply borrow a few worker turns to improve the corn.

The main arguments I see in favor of the plains tile are the access to the sea (always a perk, especially when playing as the vikings), an additional unique health resource, and the possibility of being a major production center if we ever really needed it (at the cost of a lot of commerce, though).

The desert hill tile, as I said, avoids having to build a workboat early in its life and can, instead focus on other infrastructure. It makes quicker use of a resource tile that would, otherwise, have to wait until after we develop iron working. It also has access to more grassland tiles, which works well toward making it a commerce powerhouse.

After weighing those factors, I'm torn. Both sites have their perks, but if no one else likes the desert hill tile, I guess I have my answer. Anyone else have some input?

Oh, and by the way, we'll likely be rushing a library, not a monument, in our second city. There's just too much synergy with all that gold and it's nice to not have to spend turns researching mysticism for very little benefit. At least, that's what I'd do.

I understand that people are discussing two possible sites: (A) plains south of river mouth (2W 1N of pig), (B) desert hill south of river mouth (2W 1S of pig).

Either site can quickly work 3 gold. Either site can get a second food resource (fish or corn) on cultural expansion.

Either site ends up creating one "wasted" tile in its fat cross (site A has the desert hill in its fat cross; site B has a coast tile with no option of lighthouse).

Whichever food resource we don't work from this city (fish or corn) will easily be used by another city in the future.

The advantages of site A are (1) coastal for Harbor and ship production, and (2) fresh water for increased health.

The advantages of site B are (1) can work 3 gold right away, without cultural expansion; (2) corn is easier to develop than building a workboat for the fish; (3) extra grassland hill for production purposes [klarius states that site A has two grassland hills, but, in fact, it only has one]; (4) if we don't work the corn from this city, we won't use it for quite a while, until we can clear a lot of jungle.

To me, B seems substantially better than A, in the short term (which is what is most important when founding the second city). In the long term it's more or less a wash, although I still think B is better. A has the disadvantage that if this city is dependent on the fish, there are a bunch of other plausible city sites that become relatively useless because they can't get enough food. While if we use the corn in this city, we still have many other good city sites to the south.

Alright, I plan on playing tonight (in about 10 hours or so). If there's any additional feedback, or someone just really wants me to wait for some reason, please speak up. As it stands, I'm now leaning back in favor of the desert hill for settling.

14 turns closer... http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/Peanut_SG004_BC2080_01.CivWarlordsSave

I've left the decision of what to produce at the capital to the next player. There's quite a bit of overflow to be rolled into whatever is chosen, so a settler may be the best choice (to grab the copper possibly EDIT: on looking at the map again, we shouldn't found a city to get copper. We get it through border expansion in 12 turns. Maybe grab the sheep and corn to the north, or just start focusing on military?).

We've got another city, another warrior, another worker, and a workboat for scouting now. Growth in Nidaros is going well, but the desert hill mines take quite some time to bring up to speed. None of the gold is roaded yet, so that'll need to be done at some point.

Reserach completed on bronze working and is a couple of turns into pottery (which, with the gold, is going very swiftly).

My notes:

Turn 0 - 2530 BC
- Switch citizen from horses to pigs (get a couple more turns of very fast growth in the capital)
- Start warrior and Settler moving toward the future city site

Turn 1 - 2500
- Nothing

Turn 2 - 2470
- Gibbons list of the most advanced civs, we're 8th, Gandhi is fortunately first.
- Worker starts roading toward future city site

Turn 3 - 2440
- Settler reaches the future city site unscathed

Turn 4 - 2410
- Found Nidaros (on the desert hill)
- Nidaros starts a warrior and steals the pig tile from the capital

Turn 5 - 2380
- Complete warrior in GroundnutHill, starts a workboat
- Start work on a gold mine

Turn 6 - 2350
- Scout successfully defends vs. a lion

Turn 7 - 2290
- Found Khan's border to the south

Turn 8 - 2260
- Nothing

Turn 9 - 2230
- Nothing

Turn 10 - 2200
- Gandhi's borders to the NW grow to encompass the fish
- switch production in capital to worker (so it can be rushed as soon as we're in slavery)

Turn 11 - 2170
- Learn Bronze Working, adopt slavery and switch research to pottery
- Bronze sighted to the north of the capital

Turn 12 - 2140
- Rush a worker in GroundnutHill

Turn 13 - 2110
- GroundnutHill completes a worker, continues workboat

Turn 14 - 2080
- Our scout meets his end a tthe end of a barbarian warrior's club
- Groundnuthill completes a workboat, starts a barracks (for now...)
- start the second gold mine and the last tile of road toward nidaros

Submission log:
Turn 53, 2410 BC: Nidaros has been founded.

Turn 54, 2380 BC: Barbarian's Lion (2.00) vs Peanut's Scout (2.90)
Turn 54, 2380 BC: Combat Odds: 11.1%
Turn 54, 2380 BC: (Animal Combat: +20%)
Turn 54, 2380 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 54, 2380 BC: (Feature: +20%)
Turn 54, 2380 BC: (Class Animal Combat: +100%)
Turn 54, 2380 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 54, 2380 BC: Peanut's Scout is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 54, 2380 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 54, 2380 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 54, 2380 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 54, 2380 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 54, 2380 BC: Peanut's Scout has defeated Barbarian's Lion!

Turn 60, 2200 BC: You have discovered Bronze Working!

Turn 61, 2170 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 61, 2170 BC: Peanut adopts Slavery!
Turn 61, 2170 BC: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.

Turn 62, 2140 BC: You have trained a Worker in GroundnutHill. Work has now begun on a Work Boat.

Turn 63, 2110 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Peanut's Scout (0.92)
Turn 63, 2110 BC: Combat Odds: 99.4%
Turn 63, 2110 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 63, 2110 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 63, 2110 BC: Peanut's Scout is hit for 28 (64/100HP)
Turn 63, 2110 BC: Peanut's Scout is hit for 28 (36/100HP)
Turn 63, 2110 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 14 (58/100HP)
Turn 63, 2110 BC: Peanut's Scout is hit for 28 (8/100HP)
Turn 63, 2110 BC: Peanut's Scout is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 63, 2110 BC: Barbarian's Warrior has defeated Peanut's Scout!
Turn 63, 2110 BC: While defending, your Scout was destroyed by a Barbarian Warrior!

I would rather build a second boat first to go the other direction. I see no use for much strong military currently, as I don't think we want to attack Mongolia, before we know other people. We could use some chariots for barbs and to finish scouting, but I don't think they urgently need to be build with barracks.

I also don't see that there is a site we urgently need to settle now. The best sites are in the south, but will shine only with IW. Sheep-corn in the north is decent, but I would rather wait for sailing (which I usually want to trade) to connect it immediately. It's to far to consider to link it with roads just now.
To the west a lot is blocked already by Gandhi.

Tech I think pottery-writing-alphabet and build libraries ASAP in both cities.

Roster:

a space oddity
Wotan
malekithe - Just Played
klarius <--- You're Up
MailMan - On Deck
civ_steve
ainwood

I think the push to Alphabet is warranted, and that goes hand in hand with more exploration and contact, so another scouting WB sounds good. We'll need IW to reduce the Jungle to the south, but that might be picked up in trade, as well as Sailing.

Got it and will play now.

Played :). The save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/Peanut_SG004_BC1600_01.CivWarlordsSave)
Here is your Session Turn Log from 2080 BC to 1600 BC:


Turn 67, 1990 BC: You have discovered Pottery!
Turn 67, 1990 BC: Gandhi adopts Slavery!

Turn 74, 1780 BC: You have discovered Writing!

Turn 75, 1750 BC: The borders of GroundnutHill have expanded!

Turn 77, 1690 BC: Peanut's Chariot (4.00) vs Barbarian's Warrior (3.00)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Combat Odds: 78.3%
Turn 77, 1690 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Peanut's Chariot is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Peanut's Chariot is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Peanut's Chariot is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Peanut's Chariot has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Judaism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 78, 1660 BC: Peanut's Chariot (4.40) vs Barbarian's Warrior (3.50)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Combat Odds: 75.3%
Turn 78, 1660 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Peanut's Chariot is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Peanut's Chariot is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Peanut's Chariot is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Peanut's Chariot is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Peanut's Chariot has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Your Chariot has destroyed a Warrior!
Turn 78, 1660 BC: GroundnutHill will grow to size 6 on the next turn
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Nidaros will grow to size 4 on the next turn
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Gandhi adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.20) vs Peanut's Chariot (1.40)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Combat Odds: 96.4%
Turn 78, 1660 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Peanut's Chariot is hit for 17 (15/100HP)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Peanut's Chariot is hit for 17 (0/100HP)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Barbarian's Warrior has defeated Peanut's Chariot!
Turn 78, 1660 BC: While defending, your Chariot was destroyed by a Barbarian Warrior!

Turn 79, 1630 BC: GroundnutHill has grown to size 6
Turn 79, 1630 BC: Nidaros has grown to size 4

Turn 80, 1600 BC: Peanut's Chariot (3.69) vs Barbarian's Warrior (3.00)
Turn 80, 1600 BC: Combat Odds: 62.6%
Turn 80, 1600 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 80, 1600 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 80, 1600 BC: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 80, 1600 BC: Peanut's Chariot is hit for 17 (67/100HP)
Turn 80, 1600 BC: Peanut's Chariot is hit for 17 (50/100HP)
Turn 80, 1600 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 80, 1600 BC: Peanut's Chariot is hit for 17 (33/100HP)
Turn 80, 1600 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 80, 1600 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 80, 1600 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 80, 1600 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 80, 1600 BC: Peanut's Chariot has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 80, 1600 BC: Your Chariot has destroyed a Warrior!
Turn 80, 1600 BC: You have captured Zhou!!!
Turn 80, 1600 BC: You have pillaged 17 ? from the destruction of Zhou!!!

Turn 0 2080:
Change build to work boat. I think exploaraion is most important.

Turn 1 2050:
nothing remarkable

Turn 2 2020:
Nidaros warrior->chariot.
Scouting WB finds a fish, which would make a nice fish-sheep city not as far as the corn-sheep site.

Turn 3 1990:
Capital WB->barracks.

Turn 4 1960:
Pottery->writing.

Turn 5 1930:
Scoutboat south finds marble.

turn 6-7:
nothing

Turn 8 1840:
Capital barracks->chariot.

turn 9 1810:
Some barb villages in the south.

Turn 10 1780:
nothing.

Turn 11 1750:
Writing->alphabet
Nidaros chariot->library.
Make open borders with Genghis. We should be able to cancel that in time if he tries to sneak something through.

Turn 12 1720:
Capital chariot->library.

Turn 13 1690:
Nothing

Turn 14 1660:
Barb skirmishes.

Turn 15 1630:
A barb warrior kills one of our chariots.

Turn 16 1600:
Pop rush library in the capital.
Autoraze barb village in sw. It was build on spices, so we anyway wouldn't have wanted it there.
Ok, that's a nice even number so stop here.

Nothing really happened. Didn't meet anybody new and doesn't look good for new contacts.
Alphabet in 12 or a bit faster with the library.
There are 2 forest chops under way, one for each city, which still can be stopped if we want to save the forests.
New resources we could want to settle are fish near the sheep to the north and marble south.
Securing marble might be a good idea, if we think we go for GLib.

Genghis should trade techs known to him and Gandhi in this situation, so alphabet still can get us some techs.
But Genghis has a low threshold for WFYABTA tech denial. If I understand this correctly this means we can trade 7 techs + 1 every 20 turns.

klarius gets TWO sessions in, one in each active SGOTM! :) Good work!

Roster:

a space oddity
Wotan
malekithe
klarius - Just Played
MailMan <--- You're Up
civ_steve - On Deck
ainwood

But Genghis has a low threshold for WFYABTA tech denial. If I understand this correctly this means we can trade 7 techs + 1 every 20 turns.:lol: And if I understand THIS correctly, don't expect a lot of trading with Genghis. I assume Mansa Musa is on the other end of this parameter?

got it - will probably play in 36 hours

:lol: And if I understand THIS correctly, don't expect a lot of trading with Genghis. I assume Mansa Musa is on the other end of this parameter?
It doesn't really mean much as long as we don't meet new folks. He will not even have that much to trade.
In fact Mansa is the other extreme. The base value is 5 for Genghis which is multiplied by 1.5 for monarch difficulty. Some others are as low also. Many civs have a 10 there so will trade 15 techs at monarch.
Mansa is the only one with 20 base, 30 at monarch. And together with the 1 additional tech every 20 turns, it's just not possible to get over his threshold usually.

Good to know, I can use this in my HoF games. :thumbsup:
Did I understand correctly that you've learned this by looking at the SDK code?

If I got the WFYABTA article right, unless we found another civ, we can trade with Genghis for all its techs. we will suffer WFYABTA only from India, which doesn't really bugs me.
So I may as well take the most of our current techs lead (probably only alphabet) to take the most out of Genghis since we are aiming for a fast tech pace.

Every tech trade counts for the WFYABTA for every civ. This includes the techs you receive from the civ you are trading with.
So when we get alphabet, Genghis has 8 techs available we could trade for (will not happen :)) and we trade for all, we will hit the threshold immediately.

While we stay isolated with Genghis and Gandhi, Genghis' low threshold is no problem. The counter goes down by one, every 20 turns on average. I doubt that Genghis comes up with a tech we want to trade for, more often than every 20 turns (and Gandhi has to have it also or Genghis will not trade).

If we should meet another civ soon, then it may be necessary to watch this really.
If we are isolated until optics, I think there will be no problem up to then and we should meet better trading partners quickly.

0 - Nada

1 - library finished in the capital, start granary
two forest chop finished this turn making it in 5 turns.

2 - spot Delhi - its size 8 already

3 - Delhi is now size 9. it build on a plain hill with stone (3 hammers) with the following resources:
2 whales, 2 fish, clams, ivory, gold, gems, corn
I wish we had that spot.

6 - barb warrior shows up in the north, granary finished in the capital, start chariot to counter the warrior.

7 - try to knock down a turn from completing the chariot in the capital by starving the city

8 - no good the warrior took the 3h spot forcing me the rush a chariot to avoid pillaging.

9 - kill the barb warrior, use spill over from the rush to a settler.

11 - we got alphabet. trade writing to Genghis for sailing. he will not give us anything better for writing.
he also has archery and masonry for trade, IW is redded out.
I set research to Metal casting for three reasons:
1. forges - it will give us additional happy face (maybe two after we get the gems.
2. the colossus.
3. good trading material.

The game crashed on me. I had to reload from autosave.
I think it related to the HOF mod. the game never crashes when I am not using any mods.

12 - GW was build somewhere

15 - kill barb archer with a chariot in the north

17 - Mongol raze barb city in the far SE.

18 - settler complete in the capital. I stop here for discussion.


Turn 89, 1330 BC: Peanut's Chariot (4.00) vs Barbarian's Warrior (2.40)
Turn 89, 1330 BC: Combat Odds: 96.2%
Turn 89, 1330 BC: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 89, 1330 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 89, 1330 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 89, 1330 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 89, 1330 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 89, 1330 BC: Peanut's Chariot has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 90, 1300 BC: You have discovered Alphabet!

Turn 91, 1270 BC: You have discovered Sailing!

Turn 92, 1240 BC: The Great Wall has been built in a far away land!

Turn 95, 1150 BC: Peanut's Chariot (4.80) vs Barbarian's Archer (3.00)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Combat Odds: 94.1%
Turn 95, 1150 BC: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Peanut's Chariot has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 97, 1090 BC: Khoisan (Barbarian) has been captured by the Mongolian Empire!!!

Turn 98, 1060 BC: You have trained a Settler in GroundnutHill. Work has now begun on a Chariot.


THE SAVE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/Peanut_SG004_BC1030_01.CivWarlordsSave)

Genghis will trade IW + 1 other tech for alphabet now (or the 3 minor techs w/o IW).
Best offer is IW + masonry in terms of beakers. But we could also go for IW and mysticism, to have more options for the next trade round.
What to do with the settler depends a bit on the iron location. :crazyeye:

Our research should go into direction of optics. But there's the question if we want to side track for literature.
Also do we intend to generate a great scientist and what to do with him.

If we trade for masonry we open up pyramids and great lighthouse. Are we interested in any of these and can we afford to build a wonder?
For pyramids we should for sure get stone first. There is a stone on an island far to the SW. A town there will cost quite a bit maintenance and it's a long way to get there :(. On the other side there are 2 clams and a horse tile, so not a bad town.
Another thing is marble. It's probably a little late for Oracle, but GLib is a pretty useful wonder.

Too bad we can't gift anything to Gandhi, Marble in his hands would probably deliver the GLib at the proper place, he likes building it. Now we probably need to build it to deny the others, tech lead for us and Gandhidji is our goal, no? *headwiggle* ;)

With regard to the stone, the wars will probably be late ones, I gather. So it's not a military liability probably, only an economic one. Still economics is important, especially early on. :undecide:

I think Gandhi is setup to be a power house. there is a good chance that he will still many of the wonders we are aiming at.

Notice that trading Alpha will allow Gandhi and Genghis to trade among themselves.

I suggest taking the Alpha to IW + masonry, and based our next city on where is the iron.
There is a fog basting chariots in the south and north, so we can take either one.
we should build more chariots and connect the copper. there is a lot of free land and the barbs will soon ran at us with axes.

Well, I see this a bit different, wrt to war. Genghis will run us over some time, if we don't build enough military.
I assume he will research HBR soon and Keshiks are a PITA wrt sneak attacks.
Genghis is rejecting a war with Gandhi with the "enough at hands" phrase, which means he has a war plan already.
This doesn't mean he will go to war really soon, but if it's us he's after he will pull the trigger, if we stay to weak.

Though probably the decision who he wants to war is already taken, I think we should try to stay nice to him for now. We could gift him our spare gold. That's not costing us anything now.

Another observation:
Genghis and Gandhi are annoyed with each other. That's coming from the hidden basePeaceWeight modifier. They probably don't trade techs currently. Even if Genghis picks up Gandhi's religion, it's doubtful that he gets up to cautious versus Gandhi (the other way round will work then probably).
So if we want the two to trade, I see only one possibility. That's the mutual struggle bonus against us :eek:.

We should certainly trade for IW and use that information in locating our next city. I would take Masonry as the second tech, since we might want to build the marble city soon. (Stone seems too far away, though. And too hard to defend a city down there from Gandhi.)

Building the marble city next (6S 1W of capital) is a reasonable choice, if iron doesn't show up somewhere useful. We can farm the sugar for 4 food, before Calendar.

I don't think we need to connect copper just for barbarians. We can just build chariots to deal with them (good vs axes, and also good for patrolling territory). It's true that we want copper for spearmen if Genghis threatens to attack us. But the main idea should be to be strong enough that he doesn't attack. Building a bunch of chariots is a fine way to boost our power rating, while also controlling barbarians. On the other hand, I wouldn't go so far as giving him gold.

3 - Delhi is now size 9. it build on a plain hill with stone (3 hammers) with the following resources:
2 whales, 2 fish, clams, ivory, gold, gems, corn
I wish we had that spot.

Delhi also has Iron next to it (a worker is currently building a mine there).

I don't think we need to connect copper just for barbarians.
Well, but axes are most efficient for generating power. And we want the barb city in the north soon, which is in a decent location. I would rather bring a couple of axes together with a chariot or 2 for that.
On the other hand, I wouldn't go so far as giving him gold.
Any specific reason for that ?

If getting IW is a unanimous opinion couldn't whoever is up do the trade and post info on any iron in our area? That would surely help deciding where to plant the Settler.

Marble town is probably OK but for the simple fact it is a bit exposed to a potentially aggressive Mongol. Are we willing to take the risk of having a difficult time supporting it in case of a war?

I am also in favour of connecting bronze for Axes unless we can connect iron easier. And that would also suggest we build enough to take on the barb city in the north.

If getting IW is a unanimous opinion couldn't whoever is up do the trade and post info on any iron in our area? That would surely help deciding where to plant the Settler.I second the motion. (Edit: That would be Steve.)

Well, but the second tech to go with IW is not as clear to me :crazyeye:.
In 12 turns we have another tech to trade. And we should not hold back, as Genghis has the highest probability to demand tribute and also the highest probability to declare war, if refused.
If we take masonry now, we might be limited to archery and mysticism as trade options, as we don't see the religious techs. If we take mysticism now, we still can get masonry and archery in 12 turns and maybe a religious tech on top of it.

EDIT:
Another option is to trade only for IW and self research the very cheap mysticism before completing metal casting.
The idea here is to stay one more tech away from WFYABTA and at the same time probably get "fair trade" points.
We should soon get an open borders point, so we might be able to get him up to pleased, which will prevent tribute demands. He still can ask for help, but with a much lower probability.

OK, I'm up and I'll post a 'got-it', although I wont have the save until tonight. I can make the IW trade to locate Iron and report back. If it's our intention to found the Iron site next (assuming there is one), then Masonry could wait until the next trade. OTOH, if Genghis will only trade us a certain # of Techs, perhaps it's better we learn Mysticism ourselves and use that Tech slot for a slightly better Tech. In that case, trade for IW + Masonry, learn Myst first, then MC. (All this has been mentioned - I'm just repeating it to make sure I've got it correct :) )

I would have no problem with trading for IW+Mysticism instead, and then trying to get Masonry in our next trade for Metal Casting. If we found the marble/sugar/gems city, we'll still need cultural expansion to connect the marble, so that will take a while.

On the other hand, I don't necessarily believe in trading for a bunch of cheap religious techs that we don't particularly need, as they do all count against our trade limit. And this is going to be a long game (space race).

I'm certainly not against hooking up the copper. (And the pigs---why don't we have pigs yet?)

Maybe I just don't understand the idea of giving him gold. It slows our research and the benefit is small (I think). On the other hand, we could easily give him a spare health resource (especially if we connect the pigs!).

The cheap religious techs are needed at some later time. Polytheism for literature, if we go that route. Meditation for philosophy->liberalism.
I doubt that we can trade anything good from Genghis for metal casting, so I would like to have at least some value.
I still think we won't hit Genghis' limit before optics. He will just not have enough non monopoly techs to trade to us.
The trade limit with other civs is not influenced before we know them. But as soon as we start trading with other civs, we will reach Genghis' limit (he doesn't need to know our trading partners :crazyeye:) and will never trade with him again. So I would like to get as many techs as possible out of Genghis as long as we are isolated.
And IMO, we don't want to risk the coin flip (50% probability) to rebuke a tribute demand and get into war, so shouldn't delay trading, if we don't have him at pleased.

Why does giving away a gold resource cost us research :crazyeye:.
We have 2, soon 3, so our happiness is not influenced. The tile value is not influenced by trading resources.

The cheap religious techs are needed at some later time. Polytheism for literature, if we go that route. Meditation for philosophy->liberalism.

Of course. But we can research them ourselves in 1 turn each, much later in the game. And save our trade limit for late-game techs that are much much more expensive.

The trade limit with other civs is not influenced before we know them.

I didn't know that. If that's true, then certainly, we should feel free to trade for cheap techs, before Optics. We probably won't keep Genghis alive until the late game, anyway.

And IMO, we don't want to risk the coin flip (50% probability) to rebuke a tribute demand and get into war, so shouldn't delay trading, if we don't have him at pleased.

I wouldn't refuse anything he demands. It's not a big cost for us to give him techs for nothing. But I agree that getting IW is definitely worth it.

Why does giving away a gold resource cost us research :crazyeye:.

Never mind, I didn't understand what you were suggesting. Sure, we could give him gold. Or a health resource.

OK. Traded Alpha to Genghis for IW and Masonry. There are 2 Iron sources, one close to the Barb city to the north, and one in the far SE corner near Genghis. I'm attaching screenshots of both.

Perhaps Barb city should be razed, and new city founded one space to the West, to allow Iron, corn, Sheep within fat cross.

Or we could keep Barb city, and found new city on river between Clams and Iron, and get both with expansion.

Neither iron seems conveniently placed. I'd just go ahead with connecting up the copper, and found the next city in the 2 sugar/gems/marble spot.

Eventually, razing the barb city and rebuilding 1W makes sense to me. I hate to raze cities, I keep them when I can, but in this case the advantage seems quite substantial. I don't like building a city 2W of iron, and relying on the clams as a food source, because they will be hard to defend from Gandhi.

I also think that we shouldn't do anything about the iron now. It's not that urgent as we have copper.
I rather think not to raze the barb city, but build another city eventually 2 west of the iron.
I'm not sure about the marble city location. Sure that gets the most resources eventually, but it's one tile off coast and doesn't give us much before culture expansion.

We still didn't discuss, if we want wonders soon and our research path after metal casting. If we want GLib soon (literature after MC), we need marble w/o culture expansion. We also want then math soon for chops.
If we don't go for GLib, we should bee line for Optics IMO (machinery or compass ?). There's then still the question, if we want a scientist light bulb for that (I rather think not, but still want a scientist for an academy soon).

The locations that give marble immediately without expansion, are terrible in the long term. I don't think it's that important to get marble right away. We still have time for building the GL.

I also like putting the city on the hill, with fresh water. However, a second choice would be to build 1S of gems, which still gets both sugar and the marble in the borders, eventually.

But building on the river means that we can work the sugar farm for 4F immediately, which will make it faster to get the border expansion.

Well, the sugar farm needs 13 worker turns, so not quite immediate :) and 4 food is not that much. And not settling on coast means we will need quite a few roads to connect the city.
One south of the gems is interesting for getting the gems into play immediately (also not quite :) - 15 worker turns including road) and by that helping our first 2 cities.
The city also has 2 grassland hills w/o the need for more jungle to hack.

I wouldn't call the site 2s of the gems terrible in the long run. It's coastal and can get a decent production pretty fast.

But the question is really do we need marble soon. Otherwise we could also think to build somewhere else in the jungle for gems. Maybe in range of the Nidaros corn to get it really quick up to speed.

Well, the sugar farm needs 13 worker turns, so not quite immediate and 4 food is not that much. And not settling on coast means we will need quite a few roads to connect the city.

I think, as long as we have Open Borders with Genghis, we have a trade route to our capital along the river and coast. We may need to explore the remaining tiles inside Genghis's lands, but we want to do that anyway.

We also get to work the sugar for 3f as soon as we clear the jungle, then it increases to 4f when we build the farm. Any tile we work requires time to improve.

But the question is really do we need marble soon. Otherwise we could also think to build somewhere else in the jungle for gems. Maybe in range of the Nidaros corn to get it really quick up to speed.

But the thing is, if we want marble in the medium term, but not soon, we have to either (1) put a city near it now, or (2) build right next to it, later. The advantage of putting down the marble city now is that we can put it in the best spot, and we have time to build it up for cultural expansion. If we wait and put a subsequent city in the same spot, then our access to marble will be really late.

I also like the fact that the marble spot is on the route from Genghis to us. So, if war does break out, we can defend it. If we build off to the southwest, we're going to have to defend on multiple fronts.

That said, if we want to ignore marble for now, then settling 3SW of Nidaros, with 2 sugar, 2 gems, spices, and (shared) corn, is certainly a fine site.

Well, after many questions and suggestions, I made up my mind what I think my strategy would be:
No wonders, no marble.
Get as many gems as possible and bee line optics to get some decent trading partners ASAP.
Trading post and forge in capital as soon as feasible (w/o neglecting military), then grow and have 2 scientists.

Does that resolve the GS question as well? Use for Optics? Or do you still want the Academy?

Well, thinking long term I still think academy (in fact at least 2 to give to Gandhi later) is better.
The bee line is meant to avoid researching techs we can later trade for, not to be necessarily the fastest possible.
We also need math first, if we want to light bulb optics. If we can trade that from Genghis, we can rethink.
But the "no wonder" was also meant as: no urgent need for math and don't deviate from the direct path to optics.

If this is even remotely close to the best research strategy, I have no idea :crazyeye:.
But my experience in SGs is that any clear strategy is better than just let every player pull it in different directions.

I agree that the earlier we make off-continent contacts, the faster we can gain control and take advantage of world wide Tech Trading, and I'm all for letting the AI research the 'filler' Techs while we push along the long path. I'm playing my set now.

Start of Log

OK, trade Alpha to Genghis for IW + Masonry

Save, and discuss ... Resume

Pop Granary at Nidaros for 2 pop, just before Growth next turn. Oops, forgot about food requirement for growth going down with less pop, so we will grow anyway.

Decide to send Settler towards Gem location to the West; move Chariot to support

Worker starts to build Road to Copper

Turn 1 - 1000 BC
Nidaros finishes Granary, next a Barracks
Adjust for fastest Growth

(IBT list of strongest Civs; Genghis is 3rd, Ghandi 4th, we are 7th - not last!)

Turn 2 - 985 BC
Uppsala founded on River adjacent to 2 Gems; starts on Granary

(IBT Genghis demands Gold - we give Gold)

Turn 3 - 970 BC
Groundnuthill builds Chariot - off to bust Fog; next a Trading Post
Switch to Mysticism, 3 turns

Turn 4 - 955 BC
Nidaros' borders expand; it can now use the Wheat

(IBT Genghis converts to Hinduism)

Turn 5 - 940 BC
WB sees Genghis city where 2nd Iron is (to the SE)

Turn 6 - 925 BC
Worker starts Mining Copper

Turn 7 - 910 BC
We learn Mysticism; Genghis has Meditation and Archery; Ghandi also has Polytheism
Set back to MC; will run at 0 for 1 turns
Nidaros is size4; MM to use 3 Gold; switch Wheat to Uppsala

Turn 8 - 895 BC
Send Gold Worker off to connect Uppsala
Nidaros finishes Barracks, next Chariot
Set Research to 100%; MC in 9

Turn 9 - 880 BC
Groundnuthill is size 6, with 1 Unhappy

Turn 10 - 865 BC
Chariot sees Barb Archer in the Open, at 94% we barely win
Will retreat to capital to heal, and use next Chariot for Northern Fog bust

Turn 11 - 850 BC
Groundnuthill builds Trading Post; next a Chariot

Turn 12 - 835 BC
Groundnuthill is now 6 Happy citizens; work an extra Cottage
Worker has connected Copper; next help to connect Uppsala
realize I had hit Mining instead of Road for 2nd Worker; correct that

(IBT Oracle is finished in a far off land)

Turn 13 - 820 BC
Groundnuthill finishes Chariot, next an Axe
Send Chariot to bust fog to the North

(IBT Gandhi adopts Hereditary Rule
See a Mongol Archer to the South near our Fog line)

Turn 14 - 805 BC
Nidaros finishes Chariot, next a Spearman

Turn 15 - 790 BC
One wandering WB has returned to Groundnuthill

Turn 16 - 775 BC
We learn MC, set to Machinery next, but don't change much else
I'm sure we'll have lots to discuss

Save and upload

end of log

Groundnuthill can probably switch to a Forge, grow to size8, and about that time pop-rush for 4 pops.

Nidaros has been working 3 gold, but its unhappiness has worn off; probably set it to Grow now.

2 Workers are working on connecting Uppsala and the 2 Gems.

We can also go after the Barb in the North fairly soon; and/or we might want to found near the Sugar/marble/Gem spot as Genghis is feeling around with an Archer there right now.

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1030 BC to 1000 BC:

Turn 99, 1030 BC: You have discovered Iron Working!
Turn 99, 1030 BC: You have discovered Masonry!
Turn 99, 1030 BC: <COLOR=252,147,40,255GroundnutHill will grow to size 5 on the next turn
Turn 99, 1030 BC: <COLOR=252,147,40,255Nidaros has grown to size 3
Turn 99, 1030 BC: <COLOR=127,255,25,255New Tech(s) to trade: Gandhi, Genghis Khan

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1000 BC to 775 BC:


Turn 101, 985 BC: Uppsala has been founded.
Turn 101, 985 BC: You have trained a Chariot in GroundnutHill. Work has now begun on a Settler.

Turn 102, 970 BC: The borders of Nidaros have expanded!

Turn 103, 955 BC: Genghis Khan converts to <COLOR=102,229,255,255Hinduism!

Turn 105, 925 BC: You have discovered Mysticism!

Turn 109, 865 BC: Peanut's Chariot (4.80) vs Barbarian's Archer (3.00)
Turn 109, 865 BC: Combat Odds: 94.1%
Turn 109, 865 BC: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 109, 865 BC: Peanut's Chariot is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 109, 865 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 109, 865 BC: Peanut's Chariot is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 109, 865 BC: Peanut's Chariot is hit for 15 (55/100HP)
Turn 109, 865 BC: Peanut's Chariot is hit for 15 (40/100HP)
Turn 109, 865 BC: Peanut's Chariot is hit for 15 (25/100HP)
Turn 109, 865 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 109, 865 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 109, 865 BC: Peanut's Chariot is hit for 15 (10/100HP)
Turn 109, 865 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 109, 865 BC: Peanut's Chariot has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 112, 820 BC: <COLOR=252,147,40,255GroundnutHill has grown to size 7
Turn 112, 820 BC: Gandhi adopts <COLOR=102,229,255,255Hereditary Rule!
Turn 112, 820 BC: The Oracle has been built in a far away land!

Turn 114, 790 BC: You have discovered Metal Casting!
Turn 114, 790 BC: <COLOR=252,147,40,255Uppsala will grow to size 2 on the next turn

775 BC Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/Peanut_SG004_BC0775_01.CivWarlordsSave)

Why isn't the corn farmed? That was the whole point of putting Uppsala there, should certainly have been the highest priority as soon as cultural expansion permitted.

I was focused on connecting Uppsala and then making Gems available; forgot that we get +2 food with farmed Wheat. (I was thinking that clearing a Gem would provide +1 food and commerce and thinking the farmed Wheat gained +1 food ...)

Regardless, we can Farm the Wheat in 4 turns with the two Workers; a Farm would have just finished this last turn if neither Road had been built.

Roster Status:

a space oddity - On Deck
Wotan
malekithe
klarius
MailMan
civ_steve - Just Played
ainwood <-- You're Up!!

It's corn, but the yield is the same as wheat.

Even if it were rice (so farming it were only +1 food), you still should do that first, because you want to work that tile, if you're only working one tile, not the gems. The gems should come after growth. (In fact, I'd probably work a farmed sugar as the second tile, and gems even after that. Although mining the gems is important for the happiness bonus to our other cities, so that might take priority.)

Genghis is offering to trade us sheep, so we should cancel the gold giveaway, and trade it for sheep instead.

My thoughts:
Switch GroundnutHill to Forge immediately and rush in 2 turns. I would MM away from the hill to coast for these turns to have more food in the box for regrow.
I think Nidaros should also (hand-) build a forge next.

I would trade Genghis metal casting for archery and meditation. It's a terrible deal, but should get Genghis up to pleased for fair deal. We can then even try to get the dirt cheap priesthood for free next turn, by just asking for it (swallow your pride).
These techs are not important currently, but we should stay in line there to see what else they get (especially Genghis might also get monarchy and trade). And we definitely don't want to trade these techs from our real trading partners we meet (hopefully) after optics.
That would bring us to 6 techs got for WFYABTA, but one or two should already be forgotten (5% chance to forget one every turn). So still 2-4 to go and not much chance that he will have more than one to trade soon.
We can now also wait a little with trading as Genghis has demanded tribute already and will not do it again for 36 turns (50 turns from the demand). But really, what do we expect him to get and trade to us ?
He will have monarchy at some time, which we can't see. He will get HBR at some time, but probably be unwilling to share. He might get math, but I doubt that this will be soon enough (and Gandhi needs also to have it for him to trade) that it warrants to wait. It's as well possible that he heads down monarchy->feudalism and we don't get to see any new tech from him.
If you don't want to give metal casting this cheap, we should research compass now and trade with that. It's a little cheaper than MC and we need this also (the chance to trade for it is low in this setup).

We can cancel gold to Genghis now and either trade it for sheep or gift it to him for another 10 turns.
EDIT: I'm for gifting as we don't need sheep in the next 10 turns and gifting resources gives also a few points in one of the counters towards fair trade (but only on the turn it's done - every gift should be canceled after 10 turns).

Some more, definitely get the corn farmed soon. Because the worker double move to the jungle is already done, I would now let both do a road and then both do the farm. But then split them and let them cut different jungles (1 gem - 1 sugar). We definitely are pretty short on worker turns and need another one soon, but currently have other projects everywhere.

Another idea:
Genghis will now also go to war with Gandhi on top of the MC for meditation and archery deal.
I'm not sure what that will do, but there would be the chance that Gandhi gives him a monopoly tech in the peace treaty that should follow at some time.
I think there's no chance that much happens in this war and Gandhi is in war mode anyway, so another war shouldn't distract him more from the spaceship.
BTW at some time Gandhi will try to invade us. Probably not much coming, but still I would like to have a unit at least on the gold hill NW of Nidaros. This will prevent a surprise landing on that hill, zooming out of Bombay.

Another small point. I don't see any use for the work boat down near Mongolia anytime soon. We are paying a gold coin unit cost, so get rid of it. We can get it into Mongolian waters and just gift it to Genghis. Or just disband it. But don't move it back to the capital. There is already a spare work boat there and no resources we can net anytime soon. Only use to keep it would be if we intend to settle a town on the west coast soon (not a bad idea overall, but will need some time). Then it should go there.

Still something: Get a chariot to explore Genghis land. Or even build a scout for that (which later could hop on our first caravel).

Well, two New Zealand evenings gone w/o any news from Ainwood.

Typically we'll give the next player an exclusive 24 hours to post a 'got-it'. After the 24 hours is up, the player on deck can claim the turn set by posting a 'got-it', and so on in roughtly 24 hours increments. I know we're all busy and I think its best for team participation to get all players as many turnsets as possible, so even if you pass your turn or get skipped, I still try to get the player in for a turnset later.

So let's assume ainwood is skipping for now. a space oddity is UP! :)

OK - "Got It". I'll play later today.

Alright! :) space is On Deck again.

Ok - my thoughts (bear with me - I'm a bit lot behind in this game....

Research
We are going for machinery, but need to drop the rate to at least 80% to stop going broke. I plan on dropping it to zero for a few turns (+30/turn). We have 0/1569 invested, and currently at 100% we gain 44 bpt at -6 gpt. I suggest about 7 or 8 turns at no research, which will allow us to ramp back to 100%. Any objections?

Diplomacy
I presume we want to end the war with Gandhi at some point? I will maintain it as a phony war, but if he offers peace, what are we prepared to give up for it?

Cities:
Upsala
I'll leave it to grow. Emphasise food, and continue towards a granary. Don't think it will be popable in the next 10 turns.

Nidaros
Agree forge next. I won't pop anything, but I will emphasis food to try and grow it (at the expense of the gold). I figure getting the hamlet to a village (+2 cpt) is worthwhile.

Is the corn for uppsala or nidaros? I will prioritise it, but was thinking of using it for Nidaros to grow faster, and thus maximise commerce / science. Or do you want to use it to allow uppsala to pop a granary faster?

Groundnuthill
With the unhappiness, I agree on maximising food, and popping a forge. Then what? I am thinking spear, or perhaps a worker.

More later - going to cook dinner now.

Peace with Gandhi is not allowed.

I don't understand running at 0% to accumulate 100s of gold. Just run at 80% if that's what is possible.

Peace with Gandhi is not allowed.

:blush: Guess I should read the instructions....

Research
We are going for machinery, ... I set it to Machinery after finishing Metal Casting, but it can be easily switched. Near term objective is Optics. klarius has suggested we learn Compass next so we have a less expensive Tech to trade to Genghis for his Archery and Priesthood. This would save Metal Casting for a more expensive Tech, possibly. Another option is to trade MC now for Genghis' Techs, and a DOW against India; this might open the door for Gandhi to gift one of his Techs to Genghis as part of a peace treaty.

Uppsala: probably finish the road in the Jungle to connect it, Irrigate the Corn, then develop the Gems spaces. Granary, pop when possible, maybe Forge after, then Library.

Nidaros: grow and build Forge next

Groundnuthill: build Forge next; should be able to pop it shortly after reaching size8. Next, probably some military units to tend to the Barb city up North. Perhaps time a Settler to pop 15 turns after the Forge; then we should have the Forces to raze the Barb city, and a Settler to resettle it 1 space West (assuming that is the concensus).

klarius has also suggested we dump the WorkBoat down near Genghis; either gift it to him or disband it.

DaviddesJ has pointed out that Genghis will trade us Sheep, so cancel the gift of Gold, then trade the Gold for the Sheep. This definitely helps Nidaros which needs more health points.

Good Luck, ainwood!

Pre-Flight.

Cancel gold gift to genghis & change to gold-for-sheep.
Decide NOT to trade MC for techs + war. We don't need his techs just now, and any peace deal is a while off. AFAIK (and I may be wrong), why would gandhi give-up a monopoly tech for peace? That would require him to be getting his butt kicked, and we don't want that to happen.

Change research to compass, dropping research to 80%.

MM uppsala not to work corn this turn. Still grows in one, but Nidaros can gain some food (I aim to grow this).

Move chariot out of Nidaros to gold hill. Think that's a good idea.

Switch Groundnuthill to forge, and move to work coast. Growth looks OK (two turns), and I'll trust the klarius has the hammers correct!:D


Turn 1: 760 BC:
Workers start road.
Uppsala grows, so I give it the corn back.
I continue to maximise food in Nidaros - will grow in 3.


Turn 2: 745BC:
GroundNutHill grows, and I pop the forge. It will grow again in 2 (currently 6 happy, 5 unhappy)
Gift the workboat to Genghis. No change in relations - still cautious at +3.
Workers have finished road. Only one gets to move this turn, so he starts the farm. Once we get to civil service, we need to remember to spread irrigation...

Turn 3: 730BC:
Forge completes in GnH
Genghis adopts hereditory rule! He must have monarchy, but looks like we can't get it for a long time. :(
mm Nidaros for more gold & hammers, but still grows next turn.
Forge gives us an extra happy face in GnH. Will grow next turn. Switch to a worker for a turn to use the overflow.

Turn 4: 715 BC:
Barb warriors appear in the SE.
Nidaros grows to size 5. We're at the happiness cap, so I set it back to stagnant, working all the gold (at least until corn is farmed, or grassland cottaged).
GnH back to axeman to let city grow.
Move warrior to forest, to entice barbs to attack.

Turn 5: 700BC:
Barbs don't attack. Move back to hill, and see they're being chased by Genghis.

Turn 6: 685 BC:
Genghis despatches barb warrior. But I see he has a stack to the south, incl. a settler. This appears to be headed to settle by the marble / gems / sugar.
Genghis has Gandhi as his "worst enemy - can't be trusted".
Gandhi's power is skyrocketting! I consider getting genghis to war by demanding it. He respond "not on my watch" :( -1 hit for that.....
Farm completes. One Worker goes to work gems.

Turn 7: 670 BC:
Barb spears appear in South. Not sure what's happened to mongolian settler though!
GnH grows, and is at its cap. Will complete axeman next turn, then I'll get the worker finished.
Other worker off to sugar.

Turn 8: 655BC:
Nidaros spear +> Forge.
GnH Axe +> worker.
The settler that I lost? Well, it was on the tile with our warrior. Genghis has now settled on the hill by the river. Its Old Sarai.
Teh barb spear lost to genghis' archer.
new axe sent towards nidaros for defense, or, later attack on barb city.

Turn 9: 640 BC:
Genghis will now trade polytheism. We can get that, archery, meditation and war with gandhi for MC. This can wait a turn, so I suggest we ahve some more discussion at the end of the turnset.

Turn 10: 625 BC:
We are at 0 gold, -1GPT. Will reduce to 80% (+4GPT), giving compass in 6 turns.
Uppsala: Grows next turn to size 3, building a granary (which costs 2 pop, so it will be a while before we can pop it). Worker cutting jungle on gems has 3 turns left. The one cutting on the sugar has 4.
Nidaros is at its happiness cap, stagnating. It is building a forge, but that can't be popped. Need to time it so that when gems are available, its ready to grow - will mean working non-improved food tiles - perhaps we can give it the corn for a while, and get the other grassland tile cottaged by the worker being built in GnH.
GnH is building a worker that completes next turn. Either an axeman or settler would be a good option.

I note that now that Genghis has founded old sarai, the risk of barbs from the south is diminished. We can leave the chariot where it is, and use the warrior for exploration.

Turn 117, 745 BC: You have constructed a Forge in GroundnutHill. Work has now begun on a Axeman.
Turn 117, 745 BC: Genghis Khan adopts Hereditary Rule!

Turn 122, 670 BC: You have trained a Axeman in GroundnutHill. Work has now begun on a Worker.

>> THE SAVE << (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/Peanut_SG004_BC0625_01.CivWarlordsSave)

Well, demanding something from a somebody who has a lot more power isn't such a smart move :smoke:.
We can cancel gold again and get wine for it.

I would go after the barb city in the north now. Note we will also get a few coins from that to fuel our research.

Trading:
Genghis would do his 3 techs for MC.
Or war with Gandhi and one tech.
We probably lost the chance to trade very favorable for him and then get priesthood for free as a gift.

I would wait now for compass, swing a deal with that. Then quickly self research priesthood (should be only 2 turns with both prerequisites).

Well, demanding something from a somebody who has a lot more power isn't such a smart move :smoke:.
Yeah, but I figured a -1 hit (at worst) was acceptable, and it was for his "worst enemy" (even though their relations aren't bad).

Yeah, but I figured a -1 hit (at worst) was acceptable, and it was for his "worst enemy" (even though their relations aren't bad).

This makes no difference, he's not going to do what you demand, it just gets you negative modifiers.

Ok, a bit game mechanic:
Making a demand will always increment the MADE_DEMAND counter. Except for Gandhi who ignores it (which doesn't help in this game), every civ will give a permanent negative of 1 or 2 per count (so not at most -1 ;)).
A demand will always be rejected, when the civ has more than 4/3 of the power of the demanding civ.
It will always be rejected if there was a recent demand.
Finally it will be rejected if it is too expensive. Everything has a price tag - war is never free no matter how the attitude is.
The price was probably not the problem, as we should be eligible to get a few hundred gold worth as demand or gift (depends on how long you know the people and relative power - every gift or accepted demand is subtracted).
But note the price to go to war has nothing to do with worst enemy, but with attitude (and size and power of the target). So e.g. annoyed is 1.5 times more expensive as furious.

What is really bad is that now the MADE_DEMAND_RECENT memory is set. We cannot get a gift while this is up, even if we get him up to pleased (which we for sure could by trading with a loss for us, or trading for him going to war). And we cannot really know when it gets down again as this is again a random 5% per turn thing.

:blush: Sorry - Didn't realise it stuffed-up other trades if we could get him pleased with us. But thanks for the explanation of the mechanic.

Got it.

I am in the midst of finalizing an important bid this week, so I'm not sure I can play. I'll wait first for a bit of discussion anyway. :)

Okay, a few thoughts what to do:

Cancel gold for sheep and get wine for gold instead.
Don't do any demands ;) and also don't ask for help, if we should go up to pleased. Both increment the MADE_DEMAND_RECENT counter, even if rejected. We should try it only when we have a decent chance that it is fulfilled, maybe in 20 turns or so. We should be eligible for over 500g value. Techs w/o AI modifier (e.g. HBR would be more expensive) count 1.5 times beaker value.
We still don't know Genghis' land :(. Please, explore. I would really now do a quick scout for that, as our military should be better used to keep us save and for the next point.

I think we should go after the barb town in the north soon.

I would let Uppsala have the corn until it grows to 4 (8 turns) and can pop the granary. Then do a quick growth phase in Nidaros, while Uppsala works gems and sugar. The worker building now should cottage the grass for Nidaros before that.

After the worker, I would MM the capital for growth and commerce until it hits it's happy limit.
I would then rather like to see scientists instead of pop-rushing, to get a GS going.

There is a warrior in old sarai that can explore. I didn't explore earlier, as there were barbs about, and I didn't want to risk having pillaged tiles.

IIRC, GnH is at its happiness limit (for a few turns until the whip unhappiness expires), but this will be removed once we get the gems hooked-up (still about 8 turns at least....)

I presume we've agreed to complete compass before doing any more trades for techs?

We can trade for wines, so there is one more happy to get immediately.

I don't know who all agreed to wait to for compass ;). I suggested it, but other tactics are also possible. We could trade now for one tech and war with India, to make sure we don't get problems with any wars.

We could trade for all three techs with MC. There is enough gift in this trade that Genghis may go to pleased then already, which would make us also safer.

How's it going, space?

We won the bid! :dance: I'm celebrating ATM, but tomorrow morning (in about 12 hours) I'll have some time for this. :cool:

We won the bid! :dance: I'm celebrating ATM, but tomorrow morning (in about 12 hours) I'll have some time for this. :cool:
Congrats - its good to get rewarded for putting-in the hard work.

:goodjob: Now you just have to do the work! :) Still, far better to be busy than not.

[...] Now you just have to do the work! [...]Indeed. :lol: Fourteen months on a tight scedule... :cringe:

I am very much looking forward to it, actually. Especially from October onwards, when we'll tune the speechrecognition part. The perfect blend of research and making money. :thumbsup:

I have to ask for a skip here, guys. I thought I could fit in a couple of turns today, but that didn't happen and I need this weekend to clear some of the backlog here at home... Sorry.

OK, I guess I am up then. Will look at the save a bit later today and post a plan. Any input you want to give me at this stage? I have read the things discussed.

OK the following are taken from plans deiscussed earlier:
Cancel Gold for Sheep and get Wine.
No demands during my turn set
Take Barb town in the north
Run Capital for growth and commerce and get scientists working there
Let Uppsala use corn until size 4 then rush Granary

The only thing I would like additional comments on are the trade options:
3 Techs for MC
or 1 tech (if so which) and War.

Will play later toady if we have an agreement or early tomorrow.

I would now wait for compass ( a little cheaper than MC ) and trade the 3 techs for that. Then I would research priesthood (should be only 2-3 turns).
Then look what trade options we have (maybe something besides monarchy shows up).

Turn log

1 – 610BC
GroundnutHill Worker -> Axeman

2 – 595BC
Nada

3 – 580BC
Great Lighthouse built in a distant land.


4 – 565BC
GroundnutHill Axeman -> Axeman

5 – 550BC
Compass researched, started on Priesthood.
Traded Compass for the three techs. Genghis is unwilling to part with maths.
Stonehenge built in a distant land.

6 – 535BC
Nada

7 – 520BC
Priesthood researched, Machinery next.

8 – 505BC
GroundnutHill Axeman -> Harbour
Rush Granary in Uppsala.


9 – 490BC
Uppsala Granary -> Library

10 – 475BC
Nada

11 – 460BC
Barb Archer wound a Chariot, postponing the attack on Barb Town by another two turns.

12 – 445BC
Nada

13 – 430BC
Sarmatin captured, 84 gold!
2 Axemen die but both defending archers are severely wounded so they quickly perish at the hands of the Chariots.

14 – 415BC
Forest grows on hill south of GnH.
My wife bumps into me when I am about to move the Warrior into the Forest S of Pigs so he ends up in G-Hill instead… Is this something that could jeopardize our marriage? Well the warrior will not be in position to bust the fog on the turn the settler arrives there so I guess we have a situation that is not that good.

15 – 400BC
Move next to Old Sarai, and have now explored all of Mongolia.

16 – 385BC
GroundnutHill Harbour -> Axeman


After Action Report

Stop here. It feels like a good point to stop for discussions and a hand over.

Machinery in 8 turns.
We have Sarmatin and it will be online next turn so we can discuss any build plans there.
Groundnut Hill just finished building a harbour. It has 12 turns to go until the GS is ready.
Mongolia scouted.
Genghis is willing to part with either Monarchy or Maths for MC.

Forgot to take a screen dump but nothing much has happened to actually mandate a pic now i guess.


In game log:
Turn 126 (610 BC)
GroundnutHill begins: Axeman

Turn 127 (595 BC)

Turn 128 (580 BC)
GroundnutHill grows: 7
GroundnutHill finishes: Axeman

Turn 129 (565 BC)
GroundnutHill begins: Axeman
Axeman promoted: City Raider I
Tech learned: Compass

Turn 130 (550 BC)
Research begun: Machinery
Tech learned: Meditation
Tech learned: Polytheism
Tech learned: Archery
Research begun: Priesthood

Turn 131 (535 BC)
Tech learned: Priesthood

Turn 132 (520 BC)
Research begun: Machinery
GroundnutHill grows: 8
GroundnutHill finishes: Axeman
Uppsala grows: 4

Turn 133 (505 BC)
GroundnutHill begins: Harbor
Uppsala finishes: Granary

Turn 134 (490 BC)
Uppsala begins: Library
Chariot defeats (0.60/4): Barbarian Archer

Turn 135 (475 BC)

Turn 136 (460 BC)

Turn 137 (445 BC)

Turn 138 (430 BC)
Axeman loses to: Barbarian Archer (1.74/3)
Axeman loses to: Barbarian Archer (0.48/3)
Chariot defeats (1.84/4): Barbarian Archer
Chariot defeats (4.00/4): Barbarian Archer
Captured Sarmatian (Barbarian)
Sarmatian begins: Worker

Turn 139 (415 BC)

Turn 140 (400 BC)
GroundnutHill grows: 9
GroundnutHill finishes: Harbor
Nidaros grows: 6

Turn 141 (385 BC)
GroundnutHill begins: Axeman

I think we should trade for monarchy and revolt for HR, unless we want to chop a wonder, but I don't see us having a chance for any.
Sarmatian should go standard builds, granary first.
GNH may have to build a quick worker for Sarmatian, delaying the scientist.
Don't leave the tile NW of Nidaros empty :please:. Gandhi landing there would be a big problem.

Roster Status:

a space oddity - skipped
Wotan - Just Played
malekithe <-- You're Up!!
klarius
MailMan
civ_steve
ainwood

malekithe is up. space: give us a head's up when you may have some time available and we'll put you in.

Monarchy and HR sound pretty good; in that case would we want to use our first GS for an academy and research Optics by hand?

A trade for Math would allow us to lightbulb Optics and look for other trading partners. Not sure if the delayed HR and lack of early Academy are offset by earlier off-continent trading.

Ok, I've mostly got it. :) I'm at work right now, but I'll take a look this evening and report back with my plans.

I'm not seeing much immediate benefit to trading for monarchy and adopting HR. I'd prefer to continue the beeline to optics as swiftly as possible. This means trading for mathematics, continuing to run scientists in GNH, and then lightbulbing optics in 9 turns (~62% chance). I'm not positive what would come next in the research order, but CoL seems like a decent choice (Conf. is currently unfounded, BTW). I'm open to other opinions on that, though.

GNH will finish its work on an axeman and then start a trireme. In 9 turns the trireme should turn into a caravel and I'll pop-rush it. The overflow will then likely be applied to a second caravel.

Nidaros will finish the forge and then start in on military production (axemen). I'm considering rushing a worker from here after growth in 8 turns. It's certainly not the best place to be rushing things, but we really need that extra worker and I anticipate GNH being tied up in more pressing tasks.

Uppsala will be rushing the library as soon as it can (7 turns by my calculations) and applying the overflow to a forge.

Sarmatian will indeed get started on a granary ASAP, which it will be able to rush after 9 turns of production, if I calculate correctly. After that, a library seems the most obvious choice.

Oh, and I plan to ensure our coastal gold mine is sufficiently defended from an Indian sneak attack. ;)

I still think lightbulbing optics is a waste. The scientist (if at all) will not come in time, so it doesn't save that many turns on optics. And optics is relatively cheap, so we are anyway not using the full potential of a scientist.
If you throw out the engineer to get a good scientist chance, we get the scientist in 17 turns (we can have a GP in 12 turns, but with a pretty big engineer probability).
We should be able to get optics in 8+13 (maybe 12) turns if we concentrate on commerce, by just researching it (note the 16 turns it tells now does not include the prerequisite bonus we get from machinery).

EDIT:
Nidaros shouldn't be pop-rushed. It's even now not at the happy limit and gets another 2 happy from the forge.
It can work the cottages it shares with GNH, while GNH can work coast for commerce.

For some strange reason I was thinking we'd have a Great person in 9 turns. That's obviously not true. I'm less inclined to lightbulb given that's the case. I'll sleep on it tonight and see how things look tomorrow.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/Peanut_SG004_BC0220_01.CivWarlordsSave

I've left the next person with a decision to make. Khan has requested Machinery from us (he's pleased now). Should we give it to him or not? I'm leaning no, but not entirely sure.

In dealing with an Indian attack and a barbarian raider, I forgot to pop-rush the granary in Sarmatian, so that should definitely be done as soon as the Khan issue has been dealt with.

I went ahead and traded for mathematics, as I didn't see much use for HR and definitely didn't think it warranted another revolution at this point in the game. Health is more a hinderance right now than happiness, anyway. I did move us toward fully researching optics and using the great person toward some other purpose. I also removed the engineer specialist to help regrow after the whip faster and give us an increased likelihood of a GS.

We'll also probably want to rush the trireme in GNH very soon if we want to keep our seafood resource. Gandhi has a trireme of his own on the way.

My notes:
Turn 0 - 385 BC
- Move spearman out of Nidaros to guard our coastal gold mine
- switch production in GNH to worker
- Trade Khan Metal Casting for Mathematics. Get 2 extra fair trade points and he is now pleased with us.

Turn 1 - 370
- Khan now shows a monopoly on Calendar
- Rush worker in GNH
- Workers near Uppsala finish chopping jungle, start on mine for gems
- Realize Sarmatian has been working on a worker, switch to a granary.

Turn 2 - 355
- GNH finishes Worker, starts an axeman

Turn 3 - 340
- Nothing

Turn 4 - 325
- GNH completes an axeman, starts an axeman
- Nidaros completes a forge, starts an axeman
- Khan founds Confucianism in Turfan

Turn 5 - 310
- Nothing

Turn 6 - 295
- Khan converts to confucianism, relations with Gandhi sour.
- GNH grow to 8
- Science % set to 90% (-6 GPT)

Turn 7 - 280
- spot an Indian galley off the coast near Uppsala, move troops to the coast to deter an invasion.
- Uppsala grows to 4 and immediately rushes the library
- Science % set to 80% (+2 GPT)

Turn 8 - 265
- Discover Machinery and enter the medieval era. Start research on optics (15 turns @ 80%).
- Uppsala complets a library, starts a forge
- Gandhi drops a sword and an archer next to uppsala, pull troops (3 chariots, 1 axe) back into city, trying to lure his troops out of the jungle.
- Gandhi also has a trireme heading around toward GNH, start on a trireme to counter

Turn 9 - 250
- Crush the Indian attack, losing nothing.
- Barbarians take advantage of the Indian distraction, sending an axeman in from the north (threatening to cut our source of copper, actually)
- somewhere in the last couple turns we lost a fair trade point with Khan and he's now back to cautious (I didn't know those went away...). He would now be willing to go to war with Gandhi in exchange for Machinery.
- Trade Khan our gems for his fish (Nidaros had grown unhealthy)

Turn 10 - 235
- Nidaros completes axeman, starts another
- Move troops to intercept barb axe

Turn 11 - 220
- Forget chariots