Welcome to your C_IV Warlords SGOTM 4 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

The Game
This Monarch difficulty game is on a Standard size, Gyathaar-special, fractal map, at Epic speed, against 7 rivals including India. All victory conditions are enabled except Diplomatic, but the laurels for this contest will be awarded to the teams who achieve the fastest Space defeat by Gandhi.

Versions
This game will be played in Warlords Version 2.08 only.

It will be played using the current version of the HoF Mod. This is version 2.08.003 for Windows. There are insufficient Mac players to form a Mac team. so it will be played in Windows only.

If later versions of Warlords or the HoF Mod are released they cannot be used for this game.

Your start file will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php) at midnight, server local time, at the start of February 23.

Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm4_start_small.jpg (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm4_start_large.jpg)

Map Parameters
Playable Leader/Civ - Ragnar of The Vikings
Rivals - 7 civs including Gandhi (who is locked in war with Ragnar)
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Monarch
Landform - Fractal, cylindrical, medium sea level, temperate
Game Speed - Epic
Diplomatic Victory Disabled
All other settings are defaults

Notes

Please visit the C-IV Warlords SGOTM reference thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208462) to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.

Warlords v.2.08 is supported for this SGOTM. No other versions can be used, and you will have to stick with the same version throughout the game.

Teams will compete for up to four awards - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher.

Awards will be given to teams who achieve Space defeats to India in the least turns.

All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

Please enjoy the game :)

am I the only one waiting for the file?

Hmz, I thought this would be released tonight not yesterday...

We start with Hunting and Fishing, I see no problem with settling in place unless we want to move 2 West losing 1 turn, the clams and coastal location which I dont think is a good thing.... and we are currently located on a plains hill, allways nice for the extra hammer :)

Do we want to try for an early religion research Myst => Something?
Or go for a more conventional route like Agriculture/AH => Mining => BW?
Or pick up sailing early on for the Trading Post and Galleys?

Both the Pig and the Corn give us 6 food, so I think we only need research either AH or Agriculture early for we will allready have food plenty by just connecting up Clams and Pigs or Corn.

Production:
Starting by working the Grass-Forrest-Hill, switching to the Plains-Forrest-Hill after the border pop, offcourse working the clams once the nets are there.
Workboat (11) => Worker (26) => Warrior (35)
Workboat (11) => Warrior (20 + Size 2) => Worker (33)
By turn 26 we have got 285 commerce/beakers, more than enough to research any tech of our choosing.

Anyone have any idea how to get an AI to speed along without us beeing able to trade with it?
Do we want to piss everyone off at us? and have Gandhi trade his way?
We need to cripple the other AI I think at some point... I think...
Do we need to "make room" for Gandhi so he can grow some more and be larger than the other AI?
I think also we may want spies to sabotage the other AI if they are building SS parts...
What about UN and the diplo victory? How do we prevent that?

Lets get the ideas out there....

Diplo victory has been disabled, so no worries of that. We absolutely will need to have spies - both to keep an eye on Ghandi and to sabotage other civs in their space race attempts. BTW, if there would be some way that we could have the shrine (ie found) of the religion that Ghandi ends up taking.... well that's some free early scouting. So yes, if we can snag an early religion (perhaps 2?) then I think we're in a good spot. Not sure if we want the world lined up against us or against Ghandi tho.

I'm not sure how to encourage a civ to tech faster, we need to go read the original game (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=139048)to see how teams did it in civIII.

BTW, that scout should be moved SW before we make any settling decisions, but I seriously doubt that moving Ragnar's capital off the sea would be anything besides DUMB. That site is scary nice for whipping and economy.

I see no point in moving the settler 1 south, losing the Pigs. Moving the settler 2 south loses us all 3 resources and picks up a mountian + no new resources + 1 tile we cannot see right now, this tile does have a forest => Low probability for a resource to be there. In any case not a resource worth losing out on our starting spot....

I see no sense what so ever in moving either 2 south or 1 south.
To me the choices are:
1) Settle in place
2) 2 west, go inland => I think I agree with bob, a bad move
3) 2 North, I would have to double check in game but it looks like there is more land due north of there... It destroys a forrest and losses a turn, but all things considered the 2 hills are allmost the same.
The one thing we know for sure is we change 2 ocean tiles to coastal tiles, the rest... at this point is guessing for me...

No Diplo is nice, I forgot....
I was thinking about rushing Gandhi along... Can one gift GPs? And can one gift them to someone you are at war with?
Gifting Gandhi some GPs can make a real difference....

I dont know how much help the C3 game is... CIV is a totaly different game.

That site is scary nice for whipping and economy.
It has to much food actually. With +4 +4 +3 and +1 (lake) + 2 (CC) there is a food surplus of 14, even working the 2 Plains hills and 2 grassland hills (-6 food) we have a surplus of 6.
With the hills mined we have 3 + 3 + 4 + 4 + 2 (CC) = 16 hammers per turn.
At size 7, working those resource tiles + hills: +5 fpt/16hpt/8+3commerce.
Which IMHO is just crazy, unless Gandhi is our next door neighbour :goodjob:

Checking in.

I see no sense what so ever in moving either 2 south or 1 south.
To me the choices are:
1) Settle in place
2) 2 west, go inland => I think I agree with bob, a bad move
3) 2 North, I would have to double check in game but it looks like there is more land due north of there... It destroys a forrest and losses a turn, but all things considered the 2 hills are allmost the same.
The one thing we know for sure is we change 2 ocean tiles to coastal tiles, the rest... at this point is guessing for me...


:agree:

Can one gift GPs? And can one gift them to someone you are at war with?
Gifting Gandhi some GPs can make a real difference....


I don't think you can do much with an AI you at war with. We just would have to keep the other AI's from bothering him too much.

Proposed Roster:

Greyfox
Bobrath
namliaM
Maquis (welcome back)
Scowler
Healium
Cosmichail
Frankcor (lurker)

Again not order of play....

Also the comment made by Lexad in maintenance thread may be a way to get Gandhi to peace since Gyathaar has mentioned it is ok to try and get him out of the state of war. Which then would make it a lot easier to gift stuff to him (except cities if he's our vassal).

Checking in (for the first time in 3 months!? LOL)

I would agree to settle in place. We've got tons of food, and I like the coastal start. Trading posts are nice, faster ships from the get-go! Plus we can :whipped: the hell out of it! ;)

Ghandi will be unwilling to talk to us as long as we're at war. So no gifting via diplomacy screen will be possible. IIRC I've never seen the little gift box button when I'm at war with a civ and my units are in their lands, so gifting units (including GPs) will be impossible as well.

The original version of this GOTM had India starting out on a single island in a lake right next to your capital. Not sure if TPTB will do something similar. I'd like to expect that Ghandi will indeed be near by, but we'll have to be careful that he's not so close that we are forced into a long land war with him. Makes me wonder if perhaps Ghandi will indeed be close enough to "steal" those clams from us.

I'm only part way through the winning team's thread, but I'd highly suggest that folks at least skim some of those team threads to see the challenges we'll face (WW) as well as some possible solutions.

Also the comment made by Lexad in maintenance thread may be a way to get Gandhi to peace since Gyathaar has mentioned it is ok to try and get him out of the state of war. Which then would make it a lot easier to gift stuff to him (except cities if he's our vassal).
The latest on that by AlanH:
"You are allowed no peace treaties with India" will change to "You are allowed no peace treaties with India, and you must immediately declare war on Gandhi or his master if you ever find that you are at peace with him, either directly or via a vassal relationship."

For Gandhi to be that close so he can steel the clams is near impossible... culture on that tile will be so dominant so soon... no way!

I had a look at the save...
There are jungle tiles to the south, east and west of that Mountain.
There are 4 land tiles North of the settler hidden in the fog. Also due north of that grass hill is a river plains hill and another plains hill due east of there.
XX = Unknown
Px = Plains hill Forrest
Gx = Grass hill Forrest
PH = Plains Hill
GH = Grass Hill
Pl = Plains
Gr = Grass
Co = Coast
Oc = Ocean
GF = Grass Forrest
GP = Grass Pig
La = Lake
Gc = Grass Corn
Cl = Clams
GJ = Grass Jungle
Mo = Mountain
R = River
XXRPH PH Pl Gr Co
PH GH PH Px GF Co
GF GP La GC Cl Co
Gr GF GF PH Co Oc
Gr Gr Gr Gx Co Oc
Gh Gr GF GF Co Oc
XX GF GH Gr Co Oc
XX GJ Mo GJ Co Oc
XX GJ GJ PF Co Oc

Due to the jungles beeing there moving the scout SW and/or migrating the settler south is No go... It will do NOTHING for us...

By moving 2 north we "waste" 1 turn.
Lose out on:
5 Grass
1 Grass hill
2 Coastals
2 Ocean
And gain:
2 Plains hills
1 Grass hill
1 Plains
1 Grass
2 Coastal
3 fog tiles which we cannot possibly know, worst case they are Coast without seafood.

My proposal to move the scout SW was solely with the intent of then going NW on the next turn and picking up the height scouting advantage. I can see that going NW then W on the first turn would probably net us better "scouting"

Hello guys, checking in.

I'll relinquish the helm this time to someone else. Let's take turns, shall we?

(inner voice: what a good time to pass the captainship to someone else when the objective of this game is to lose :lol:).

I haven't look at the save yet, and haven't even read namliam's numbers. Will post something more when I have done either (or both).

-

Quick random thoughts

BTW, if there would be some way that we could have the shrine (ie found) of the religion that Ghandi ends up taking.... well that's some free early scouting.

I like the sound of that.

Apart from getting our own empire up and running, scouting out the area will be important. We need to find out where Gandhi is, and also where and who his neighbours are. This will inevitably have an impact on our early strategy, for example...

Do we need to "make room" for Gandhi so he can grow some more and be larger than the other AI?

If he is blocked in by somebody like Alex we might need to spend time taking that bastard out.

If it is just the two of us on a landmass, to what extent will our own expansion be affected?; do we allow him to expand in a certain direction to access resources that might permit him to develop more effectively?

And if he is on a different landmass...

I think we should just settle in place. No sense moving the settler anywhere with the visible resources and tiles.

If it was the same asCiv3 SGOTM, we can expect Gandhi to be nearby. If so, one possible thing to do is to build some wonders in cities neighboring Gandhi, and have Gandhi capture them. Possible wonders to gift are UoS, Space Elevator, Internet.

Note that they are all late wonders, because I think the initial phase of this game is the same as all games: we must first get ourselves to a strong position before thinking about winning. It does not matter if Gandhi is weak initially, we don't want him to get too strong and crush us prematurely. Letting him capture a wonder like Internet is one way to "gift" him techs. We can learn the techs, and trade the techs to someone else, making 2 civs know the tech, thus effectively "gifting" Gandhi the tech.

In summary, I think what I am trying to say is that we must play this game as if to win, and only when we became the tech leader / strongest civ in the world then we start thinking about losing to Gandhi. :crazyeye:

-

also signing in...

lets just settle in place and do the "Workboat=> Size 2 => Worker" thing.

maybe later in the game we could try to have someone small thats willing to trade with us and ghandi, but i agree with GreyFox, lets try to become strong enough to actually be able to intervene in any way we feel like.
early religion seems tempting, but maybe something conventional like the mentioned Agriculture/AH => Mining => BW with sailing right after that might be a good compromise.

I think there may be merrit in moving 2 north.
With the 2 plains hills there and the plains tile we lose out on 3 hammers but gain 9 with enough food to work everything and have +1 food left.
Making our captitol 16 hammer -3 + 9 = 22 + 50% (Buro) + 25% (forge) = 38 hpt

That would be a verry strong production capitol, but less whipping... and probably less commerce than the original site. BUT with all that jungle down south there are plenty of grass tiles there to cottage up (assuming we can grab that), more open grass is due West = More cottaging?

Disagree with moving north, the titlles north of 2 north are unknown, there is absolutely no way to tell which is better to warrant wasting 1 turn and move north. Settling on site is good enough.

Is it a rule to complete SGOTM3 before starting SGOTM4?

Is it a rule to complete SGOTM3 before starting SGOTM4?


No worries mate I finished it tonight. Diplo victory at 1872.

Disagree with moving north, the titlles north of 2 north are unknown, there is absolutely no way to tell which is better to warrant wasting 1 turn and move north. Settling on site is good enough.


I totally agree let's not waste a turn to find that we want to go back to the original site.

So, looks like most of us agree to settle in place. I haven't seen a real roster yet, just the proposal from Cosmichail. Since Greyfox has decided not to start us off, do we want to set our roster up according to timezone? (I've been out too long, so I don't remember where 1/2 the members are!)

Let's get this show on the road! :)

I did not say I would not start it off, I just meant someone else should be the VQ Leader ;)

I proposed that namliam takes both honor (since he is most enthusiatics of us all ;)

SO namliaM, post a roster and get us rolling ... just don't settle 2 North :lol:

--

Why not settle 2 north? The plains hills are there no matter what land is further north... One thing we do have is a guarantee we can work those tiles with all the food allready here and would make our capitol a very strong producer even if there are only coastal tiles.

Right now our capitol is a bit of 2 worlds and we have no idea if we can get another big productive city like this, Right now we can make sure there is.
And we can be sure that we have plenty of grasslands to cottage up, there is grasslands West and south in that Jungle...
Plus moving the capitol 2 north will enable us to fit another coastal city south of the capitol OUTSIDE of the jungle, beeing productive right away. With the capitol in place where it is now will not allow for that. Forcing us to place it inside the jungle, having to chop first (and get Iron working).

As you can see I think there are some good advantages to moving north, tho it losses us a turn and a forrest. But teams who play it save... ;)

Having the honor of leading this team, I will hold of on starting this for atleast one more day. Hoping someone will change their minds... :p (also I dont have time right now... will have started in 24 hours) Please someone change there minds :crazyeye: or I will have to settle in place :sad:
namliaM => Official VQ starter?
Greyfox => SG veteran, can fix my mistakes
Maquis => formerly known as VQ leader
Bobrath => SG Pro
Healium => New kid on the block
Scowler => Weekend man
Cosmichail => #3 finisher (finaly)
Frankcor (lurker)

Ok you changed my mind as I am a production nut. I believe foremost that production is everything even above teching. One can out gun an AI that way even if they are more advanced. So I agree let's go for it and move 2 north as recommended by our industrious leader.

I also wish to described as "Evil Lord" and if there are so many pros here what the hell happened in SGOTM03 (just bugging you guys but we need to get more focus as a team)

I am all for namliaM leading the team but please some ground rules:

NO AUTOMATION OR QUEUEING OF ANY KIND.....only exception is when it's specifically discussed such as queueing a wonder. Personally when there is a lot of queueing it throws the game off for me. Even the SG rules state that no automation should be used or queueing as a courtesy to the next player.

A definite strategtic plan outlined by the leader which all team members must provide input so we all know what page we are on. After discussion a definite plan in place before playing.

Again don't get me wrong we did fine on SGOTM03 (in the beginning) but good for SP play not SGOTM and we need to improve our team effort. I feel that all of us need to provide input and debate any suggestions made by our leader. He makes a good argument for moving 2 north and has convinced me.

I am better playing Mon-Thur and Fri/Sat/Sun are generally bad days for me. And to clarify my timezone is -5 gmt. (Eastern standard Canada)

Here's what I recall of the players:

namliaM -- industrious leader -- +1 gmt
Greyfox -- Chinese warlord -- +8 gmt
Maquis -- De Sade -- -7 gmt
Bobrath -- Swedish meatball -- -5 gmt (I think please clarify)
Healium -- Gaseous analomy -- not sure please provide
Scowler -- Mr Understatement -- gmt
Frankcor-- Lives where Caesar did -- -5 gmt

So that is what I recall and gives us some idea of when and where we are for turns etc.

Sorry, I still say no to moving 2 north. namliaM's argument is on the plains hill partially covered by fog. We have enough prod as I see it. Remember we are financial, we need a well-balanced capitol for bureaucracy to work optimally. If bureaucracy is too far away for you, consider than the early production. Moving 2N destroy a +3 hammer site. Pre-mining, I don't see any tile that will give us the early production of 3 hammers.

--

I think we should chance it as there is another blue circle on that plains hill which could mean there are more resources north of it. I suspect too that it's a couple of plains hills in fog and perhaps beyond that coast. I am not too crazy about wrecking the plains forest though but prefer production and there will be plenty of commerce there still.

Here's a what if but what if there are more sea resources north of those hills. Perhaps moving scout in that direction to expose it more might help. Our site now isn't that bad but isn't the best either. It's food rich but lacking in any luxury resources or stone/marble. Let's take that chance and see first what's there and then decide although it will will take two turns (that's including the turn he can do right now) for the scout to check it out. I find moving a settler in the beginning can sometimes have profound benefits rather than just settling in place.

Also I am in favour of an early religion this time. If we work the lake we should be able to get Hinduism. The long term benefits of Hinduism especially if we grab something like Oracle will help throughout the game for money/culture. (getting oracle and then getting shrine). Having two religions is even better but I'd be happy with one.

I know that is a contradiction moving settler and try for religion but I think we can pull it off with the financial trait. Ragnar is an amazing civ and of course one might consider the Great lighthouse but it might not help unless we can be linked by sailing to other civs. The settings give us a clue too as to what we can expect. Fractal/medium sea level means lots of land so it is likely we are sharing this landmass. Lots of land means AI will do much better than last SGOTM as I find typically happens in SP games. One reason why religion is good is to keep borders expanding enough to gobble up land for ourselves until we need it or have enough coin to settle. Five cities and one will find themselves broke so culture spreading gives us room to go ergo two religions are even better.

My ideas and plan to be considered of course:

Build: first build of course should be work boat once we settle

Tech: Going for early religion is doable but there is a risk but the benefits long lasting. Once we do that we will need mining fairly soon but time it for the worker to build the necessary mines. AH/Agriculture will be needed too soon for food development although this isn't as paramount in the beginning because of happy which we sadly very much lack. Means capitol won't allow more than 5-6 happy. I imagine the whipmeister will definitely want to get BW soon for the whipping of course.

Possible order: Mysticism/Polytheism/mining/BW/AH Maybe we get lucky and pop some huts with tech but wouldn't hold my breath.

Long term: build extra work boat for scouting the landmass asap. Scouting is very important in this game as we need to know where everybody is to make informed decision.

Strong production capitol will get us some wonders worth having like the Oracle so once we get mining the proposed site by namliaM is worth considering. I also like the idea of moving up some to make room for a second coastal city. Ragnar strength is in coastal cities especially so the more the better. The question of course what is south of us maybe more land.

The two Dutchman are in agreement. Ok somebody call Ripley's believe or not....

I am still not convinced. You say you are "not crazy with wrecking the forested plain hills" yet you go on to say you prefer production. Contradictory. Re: strong production capitol city, I maintain 3 hills is good enough for a capitol. Ignore commerce in capitol when you are financial at your own peril. I have no counter against arguments like "what if" and "sometimes have profound benefits", perhaps except "pigs fly".

I am fine if people think it is worth the possible 2 turns lost, but based on the info I have, I wouldn't do it. (By the way the worst case is not if the 3 fog tiles are coast, the worst case is they are desert or tundra). And you can kiss Hinduism goodbye with the 2 turns lost.

The best argument against settling in site, which thus far I see no one brings up, is the ocean tiles. By moving 2N, we exchange those ocean tiles for something that chances are would be better than ocean tiles.

In summary, I am fine with moving 2N if most of the team members think so. But I advise against it.

--

Couple words that resonated with me from the above discussions:

Financial leader

From my pov, we need to be the far and away tech leaders in this game. Why? To share that knowledge out asap to encourage Ghandi to start building spaceship parts. If we are the tech leaders, we will have an advantage in tech advantaged wars when we decide to slow down other civs. Yes, you need production to do that, but all the production in the world won't help muskets stop tanks.

My vote is to found in place - it gives us the jump on teching to an early religion and all the beneficial benefits from that. If there truly is a better site 2 north, then that still means there's a good site 3/4 moves north for our second city.

I am still not convinced. You say you are "not crazy with wrecking the forested plain hills" yet you go on to say you prefer production. Contradictory. Re: strong production capitol city, I maintain 3 hills is good enough for a capitol.

Contradictory until we have mining. I don't think 3 hills is enough as we are in for a typical monarch type warlords game where AI will have lots of room to grow. If we could look and decide first that indeed it would be better.

Right now all I can see that we gain a hammer by doing not worth it. Losing two turns wouldn't affect Hinduism once we get a net in place/and or work lake. I do think there are more plains hills up there and that's where we get the extra production. Should there be two then even better which would give us 5 hills, three of them plains. Enough food to work them all but limited by happy. (PS plains hill yield 4 hammers each and grass 1 food 3 hammers)

Hypothetical move: 12 hammers plains and 6 hammers grass after mining possible but need more intel
settle in place : 10 hammers after mining

The first scenario will pump out units/wonders a lot faster and our second city can certainly serve as a commerce site.

I have no counter against arguments like "what if" and "sometimes have profound benefits", perhaps except "pigs fly".


I find your lack of faith disturbing. Pigs do fly by the way. I moved my settler in a SP and found a lot more resources elsewhere but lost some 2 turns. Best move I ever made as I wasn't happy with the original site. I don't like this site all that much other than food. I'd rather loose 2 turns and see what else we could get rather than just settle right away and find out we could have done better. On the other hand the pessimist argument of desert/tundra is certainly worth consideration.

If we could tell where we are on the map (since the resources don't help us with that if I recall that doens't work anymore) we could also get a feel where the tundra is to know our position. If we are in high north than it could be tundra. If we are in south then not likely tundra there so now a possibililty of desert.

Take a chance or just settle in place. That is the question. I will go with team consensus as usual but like the idea of a strong production capitol.

I doubt that the team will go with religion more likely go for BW asap or sailing so I am not counting all that much on Hinduism. I just find personally on maps with lots of land AI will out settle you fast and with religion you can landgrab without having to settle.

So settle in place as that is the safe thing to do. Move the settler and take a chance maybe loose maybe win. Just like gambling 50/50 odds. I like gambling and seeing that we are up against teams that are quite strong I say we take a chance on religon and moving.

I just find when namliaM has something in his gut he usually gets it right on. The last two SGOTM's prove that. I am one that trusts his instincts most of the time and feel it's one of those times. Too bad the scout is sitting so far south and I don't like what I see south seeing that mountain there.

I would like to remind folks that this map is a "Gyathar special" thus normal things tend to be not so normal.

Even on a gyathar special map I dont think one will find Tundra and dessert this close to the jungle... I am 99.9% sure of the tiles I gave earlier, them 4 tiles are 2 Plains hills, a Plains and a grassland. The only unsure part is the 3 new tiles beyond those... Theoretical they could be dessert (on a gyathar special not in a regular game IMHO) on the other hand they could all 3 contain Gems or Gold. We just dont know...

Just because I am called the whip meister... I had a look at the whip... and moreso since Bob noted it is a scary site for whipping, lets look at the total picture....
One thing I know is that Plains hills suck at Food=>Hammer conversion, Grass hills are MUCHO better at 1:3, Plains hills suck at 1:2. Plains are even worse at 1:1

Both sites have:
CC +2f/2h
Clams +3f (netted + Lighthouse)
Corn +4f (Farm + Irrigation)
Pigs +4f
Lake +1f (Lighthouse)
2+3+4+4+1 = +14food/turn
The original site has 2 plains hills and a grass hill = -5 food/11 hammers.
The north site has 2 additional Plains hills and a plains = -5/+9.

Now this is the food=>Hammer conversion for the whip
- --Food Bar--- Granary---1 pop--- + FPT ---2 pop--- + FPT ---3 pop--- + FPT
- - - -- -20 - - - - 10---
01 - - - -23 - - - - 12---
02 - - - -26 - - - - 13--- 3,46 --- 0,80
03 - - - -29 - - - - 15--- 3,00 --- 0,87
04 - - - -32 - - - - 16--- 2,81 --- 1,00 --- 2,90 --- 1,87
05 - - - -35 - - - - 18--- 2,50 --- 1,07 --- 2,65 --- 2,07
06 - - - -38 - - - - 19--- 2,37 --- 1,20 --- 2,43 --- 2,27 --- 2,55 --- 3,27
07 - - - -41 - - - - 21--- 2,14 --- 1,27 --- 2,25 --- 2,47 --- 2,33 --- 3,53
08 - - - -44 - - - - 22--- 2,05 --- 1,40 --- 2,09 --- 2,67 --- 2,18 --- 3,87
09 - - - -47 - - - - 24--- 1,88 --- 1,47 --- 1,96 --- 2,87 --- 2,01 --- 4,13
10 - - - -50 - - - - 25--- 1,80 --- 1,60 --- 1,84 --- 3,07 --- 1,90 --- 4,47
11 - - - -53 - - - - 27--- 1,67 --- 1,67 --- 1,73 --- 3,27 --- 1,78 --- 4,73
12 - - - -56 - - - - 28--- 1,61 --- 1,80 --- 1,64 --- 3,47 --- 1,69 --- 5,07
13 - - - -59 - - - - 30--- 1,50 --- 1,87 --- 1,55 --- 3,67 --- 1,59 --- 5,33
14 - - - -62 - - - - 31--- 1,45 --- 2,00 --- 1,48 --- 3,87 --- 1,52 --- 5,67
15 - - - -65 - - - - 33--- 1,36 --- 2,07 --- 1,41 --- 4,07 --- 1,44 --- 5,93
All of the above is assuming a granary is in place, if not... double the food requirement and half the yield.

Meaning at size 6 whipping for 2 pop you convert at a rate of 1:2.4 which is more favorable than working a plains hill. The only thing you need to make sure of is you have enough food to regrow your city, at size 6 whip 2 end up at size 4 needing 16 + 18 = 34 food to regrow to 6 inside of 15 turns. Or +2.26 food per turn.
The latest point where whipping is (slightly) more favorable than whipping is size 8 where you need 19+21 = 40 food to regrow inside of 15 turns or +2.67fpt.

All this means is that the original site at size 7 and over is +9f/11 hammers, which is way overdoing the food department any size over 7 we add a 2 food tile thus +food stays the same. Which in turn means we can sustain specialists while keeping whipping and producing.
The north site at size 10 we work all the hills and plains + all the food tiles at +4 food.
So on the whipping department there is not a problem at the north site making the whipping discussion mute as we can whip for 2 pop every 15 turns on either site.

So what we are left with is the higher commerce for the Original site vs the higher production of the North site. The north site will sustain (atleast) 4 cottages on the grasslands + plains. Add a potential 3 for the 3 unknown tiles = 7.
The original site has room for 7 cottages.
??? Same # of cottages and more hills ???
Yes, cause we potentially are trading 3 water tiles (2 ocean, 1 coast) for 3 land tiles.

All in all I am still in favour of moving, now more so than ever before. I am allmost sure we can find another GP farm than our capitol, but not so sure we can find another (big) production city.
HOWEVER there is one more thing to consider....
EARLY production + food, becuase all this is longer term.
Early on we will not have the benifit of the 1/2 grass forrest hill and the 0/3 plains hill, thereby delaying the workboat and worker somewhat (adding to the early 1 turn delay). I will give the ol' excel sheet a run for its money to see what this boils down to.

ok first to clear up the time zone and playtime: GMT +1, vienna by the way. i can be found in front of the computer most of the day, but rarly between 8am and 2pm, thats the time i am sleeping. any day of the week.

i have absolutely no experience with delaying the first city more than one turn. i usually settle in place or move once. it up to you to judge how much we will suffer from the delay in the long run. namliaM what does your exel sheet say about our chances for an early religion? to me the option of having it is still very attractive. but having real production power in the capital is also something i really like. so count my vote as undecided. if the calculating pros think its a good idea to move and there is even a gut feeling envolved i am fine with scouting out the north.

Sleeping from 8am to 2pm???? :crazyeye: Who are you in RL? Bruce Wayne??? :lol:

My point about those 3 tiles being possibly desert or tundra is: we should simply discard all those conjecture about what tiles they are. They are simply unknown, period. Don't bring in arguments like they may contain iron/silk/gems, and I won't bring in counter-arguments like they may be desert or black-holes (which are newly Gyaathar-created tiles that sucks our settler once he move to 2N, there by creating a record-shattering fastest conquest lost at turn 4000BC). :lol:

Who said anything about GP-Farm in our capitol? That is a no-no. Always.

I am all for a productive capitol. But never at the expense of commerce when we are also financial. You can be very productive, but if I can reach Literature 10 turns earlier than you can, who do you think would build the Great Library? The key is balance. Don't go productive for the sake of being productive. It's useless without commerce.

Having said all that, I agree that the 2N site isn't all that commerce-starved. It still has sufficient coastal tiles to make it an early commerce-rich site.

So don't have to convince me that 2N is a better site. I wouldn't go there, but I would give it to you that it is a viable move.

Sleeping from 8am to 2pm???? :crazyeye: Who are you in RL? Bruce Wayne??? :lol:
well, lets just say that working in an art academy has unconventional benefits! :lol: actually today i am breaking the rule and slept at night.

i see a point in the post of grey fox concerning the commerce. i am more undecided than ever about the "move or settle" issue, but i have one thing to remark: if we decide to move and take a risk lets move the settler and not the scout to the 2N position and maybe only lose one turn.

I'm willing to accept settling 2N of current, I still think the 2 turn loss is a definite negative and as a Financial civ, moving our capital to a lesser economic site feels somehow wrong.


Hold up.... Staring at the starting screen shot, I had a minor brain pop. Current site has 5 coastal sites while 2N has the potential for 7 coastal site (depends on if that east jutting land is a 1 or more tile point). So we do lose the cottage sites with a move, but have potential better water based finance. Remember tho that once we learn how to build cottages, we'll want to have a city ready in the south to take advantage and get ours growing asap.

So Vikings-On-A-Lake it is. Hydra anyone? :p


-6gmt btw (US Central - but with the upcoming daylight savings time change... well the states are screwy)

if we settle on the 2N (if it turns out nice) it should be just one turn we loose, right?

1 to walk there and then settle on turn 2 which means it "comes on line" on 3rd turn.

I like the idea of hydra but I don't think we can accomplish it by moving 2N. We definitely should get a religion this time around as even if we don't accept it, we can use it for many other things such as temples/monasteries and priests for GPriest.

Again Buddhism is tough to get on Monarch warlords as even on Prince I have seen AI get it 12 turns just when I am in polytheism about 2-3 turns. We have to remember that this will play much differently than last SGOTM as the AI will likely have room to grow. 7 civs on a standard map fractal medium sea level is going to be problematic. They will spawn like aliens. Fortunately Gandhi is one of them but he is generally the least liked for some reason. Seems every game I ever played lots of civs constantly ask to go to war/discontinue deals with Gandhi.

I becoming torn now about moving 2N for various reasons. The two SG pro's aren't exactly thrilled about it but if there are coastal tiles beyond those hills then they won't be utilized and leaves less space for a second coastal city. From what I can see south isn't that good with a mountain there and likely more further south. I am willing to take a chance on moving 2N as two prime coastal cities are much better than one. It's just loosing 2 turns at the beginning hurts in a number of ways especially in getting Buddhism. The hydra does wonders for landgrabbing but the second city won't benefit so I would prefer to see the second city have a religion too just for culture and shrine.

Bottom line:
Disadvantage
Hydra not possible with moving 2N loose too many turns. (unless we are really lucky and all remaining AI's don't have the starting techs)
Loosing 2 turns is loss of beakers/commerce and I am sure namliaM is coming up with excel sheet soon to prove it's all worth it.

Advantages
Moving 2N allows more space for second coastal city which is beneficial being Ragnar.
Moving 2N will give capitol extra production and with bureaucracy that will be even better.

Being that we are democratic we should just put forward a vote and leave it at that:
So far:
Healium - undecided
Bobrath - yay or nay?
Greyfox - yay or nay and I suspect nay
Maquis - yay or nay
namliaM - yay
Scowler - ?
Cosmic - yay

We don't have the consensus on moving so we should make sure that the team is in agreement or at least 4 players agree to move. If that doesn't happen I'd say we stay put.

First the save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/VQ_SG004_BC2800_01.CivWarlordsSave)

Turn 1, 3970 BC: Nidaros has been founded.

Turn 12, 3640 BC: You have discovered Mysticism!
Turn 12, 3640 BC: Buddhism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 18, 3460 BC: The villagers give you gold! You have received 44 gold!

Turn 20, 3400 BC: Barbarian's Wolf (1.00) vs VQ's Scout (2.90)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: Combat Odds: 0.0%
Turn 20, 3400 BC: (Animal Combat: +20%)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: (Feature: +20%)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: (Class Animal Combat: +100%)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 32 (68/100HP)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: VQ's Scout is hit for 12 (88/100HP)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 32 (36/100HP)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 32 (4/100HP)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 32 (0/100HP)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: VQ's Scout has defeated Barbarian's Wolf!

Turn 25, 3250 BC: Hinduism has been founded in Nidaros!
Turn 25, 3250 BC: You have discovered Polytheism!

Turn 26, 3220 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 26, 3220 BC: VQ converts to Hinduism!
Turn 26, 3220 BC: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.

Turn 33, 3010 BC: The villagers have given you the secrets of a new Technology!
Turn 33, 3010 BC: You have discovered Sailing!
Turn 33, 3010 BC: You have discovered Mining!
Turn 33, 3010 BC: You have trained a Worker in Nidaros. Work has now begun on Stonehenge.

Turn 35, 2950 BC: Barbarian's Wolf (1.00) vs VQ's Scout (2.90)
Turn 35, 2950 BC: Combat Odds: 0.0%
Turn 35, 2950 BC: (Animal Combat: +20%)
Turn 35, 2950 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 35, 2950 BC: (Feature: +20%)
Turn 35, 2950 BC: (Class Animal Combat: +100%)
Turn 35, 2950 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 32 (68/100HP)
Turn 35, 2950 BC: VQ's Scout is hit for 12 (88/100HP)
Turn 35, 2950 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 32 (36/100HP)
Turn 35, 2950 BC: VQ's Scout is hit for 12 (76/100HP)
Turn 35, 2950 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 32 (4/100HP)
Turn 35, 2950 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 32 (0/100HP)
Turn 35, 2950 BC: VQ's Scout has defeated Barbarian's Wolf!

Turn 36, 2920 BC: Genghis Khan adopts Slavery!

Turn 39, 2830 BC: Nidaros will grow to size 3 on the next turn
Turn 39, 2830 BC: Nidaros's cultural boundary is about to expand.
After just 5 turns I meet our friend Gandhi, who is just some 8 or 9 tiles away
http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/6990/sgotm4scoutinghut1ag4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
I spot the Goody hut and offcourse pick that up! Netting us some gold, the goody hut across the water I am betting is blocked from us as the water is likely so seperate us from Gandhi. So I turn the Scout South...
Just after switching from Myst to Poly the familiar ring of the founding of a religion comes up *dag nabit* I think... but bless us it is buddism.
http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/1893/sgotm4scoutinghut2ih7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
After staring down and defeating a Panther and a lion (on seperate turns) our scout runs across yet another Tribal village, this time yielding a little more gold.
Next I had a dicision, faster worker with nothing to do or slow down the worker and get Poly faster?? *hmz* not a hard choice there... Work the LAKE!

Our now Woodsman 1 Scout finds some borders after killing a pack of wolves (in a forrest) only to find yet more animals. The tile south east of those lions have yet more Lions, so the scout runs for cover on the other side of Khaaaaaaaaaaan culture, where he finds another goody hut....
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/5665/sgotm4scoutingkhaaaaaaaub7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
This hut gives us sailing while we are one turn away from mining. My thinking on mining was to double up on Masonry, but I deside we need AH more right now, so that is up next...
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/982/sgotm4scoutinghut3qf7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
20:20 looking back, maybe I should have researched AH before Mining. Food is power in the early game... But the research of mining would complete together with the worker, giving him something to do. Where AH or Agriculture would be late, so I selected Mining....

This is what we know of the world so far...
http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/6193/sgotm4overview1mc6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/5358/sgotm4overview2hw5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

For the folks out there paying attention, the lake in the earlier pictures was south of Nidaros. This is what Nidaros' BFC looks like...
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/7559/sgotm4nidarosus5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Me? I like our capitol very much, but I dont know if I like what happened. If the capitol had stayed where it was, the pigs could have gone to the Gold/Fish site which as it is now... is low on food :(

FYI, I put one turn into Stonehedge to grow to size 2 after the workboat....

Edit: I crossposted with Cosmic, I thought we had a consesus (sort of) 2 for and 2 "not opposed" which is why I went ahead and played... sorry if I moved to fast :blush:

Well what's done is done and well played namliaM. Nice getting sailing and having Gandhi so nearby is going to be a pain or a help whichever way you look at it. Having the mongols south I don't like being creative and we'd better get a second city out soon and try to contain him from taking any of those precious lands.

Our capitol indeed will be a production powerhouse and we will have enough commerce. I think we will need those berserkers very soon. Khaaaaaaaaaaan we come for you......

EDIT: I'd rather you move fast then wait another few days. 2nd EDIT: DUH I see it's Genghis we'd better get settlers out soon as he will be a spawn monster being imperialistic.

I agree, what's done is done. I do think that we're off to a decent start. We all knew Gandhi would be close by...

So, we do have a confirmed roster?

namliaM -- Started!
Greyfox -- Up!
Maquis -- On deck
Bobrath
Healium
Scowler

Or do we want to swap Bobrath and Healium? Makes no difference to me.

As for a plan, I do believe we should push our expansion south, to block off GK... and eventually take him out?

I think we still need to scout some more before we make solid war plans. Yes, we do need to choke off Khan's expansion into our territory. Course if we have a huge playground to the north, then it becomes less urgent.

I got the save ... congrats on founding Hindu, and the capitol turns out fine, with grasslands in the top-right corner of the BFC for some cottages, making it a very well-balanced capitol indeed.

The build order leaves a lot to be desired, however, since if the decision was to chase after the Dancing Goddess, a worker shouldn't be built so early with nothing to do, delaying the growth substantially. I would have gone with another scout after the workboat, then the worker.

--

Discussion on what I intend to do:

Research: AH > BW > Argi > Writing or IW or Archery (depending on barbs and copper appearance)

Build: Warrior (too much hammer invested, I will let it complete) > Scout > Warrior > Settler >

I will wait one-and-a-half day before playing (I would drop to 20~30 turns, or stopping when I think there is a decision to be made via team consensus).

==

There is some 5 or 6 tiles of jungle down there which means a couple of things
1) Hell for expanding south
2) Barb heaven
3) Nice defencive bonus

I know we want the whip, but dont we want to go Masonry => Mono?

A second scout is that not a bit late now, soon barbs will start comming which is why I wanted the warrior? I hadnt really considered building a second scout, tho I think Greyfox you are right.... it would have opened up the north a bit...

I wanted to go for BW is not for whipping ... (I was never a great fan of whip, I do whip, but not as much as some players do) ... it is to reveal copper for our settler. IMHO, we should never whip our capitol, except for really urgent build, or when we accidentally grow the capitol past the happy limit.

Explain to me why we want to go Monotheism? For OR? Or for Judaism?

There are 3 valid opening moves in Civ4 teching: the learning path which is the top branch of the tree, going for early writing and literature; the warmonger path which is the bottom branch of the tree, going for BW and IW, and even early MC; and finally the hydra path in the middle of the tree, going for religions grab. Each are perfectly valid moves, depending on situation. The problem with the middle path is you fall behind in tech and isn't strong military wise that you find yourself overwhelmed with superior troops in greater quantity. This makes the hydra path more suitable in lower-difficulty, or for an isolated start (eg archipelago).

--

A quote from a civ player but don't recall his handle. Land = power....

I see an awful lot of land and probably a lot more on the other side of Gandhi and north of us although I suspect that the northern part may be only a few tiles from the coast. The amount of land that will be available to the AI is going to make them large and difficult to deal with. (I know sound like a broken record but when they have room to grow it proves to be a challenge)

I am saying that if anything we need to settle fast although I would have liked to build a wonder or two but it doesn't seem doable with Genghis as our neighbour. So I am all for getting a settler after scout/warrior. Of course should BW net us copper in our capitol and we see that GK has none I would say for an early axe rush. (just a consideration since getting settlers out is important too)

Also I was for getting Judaism for the culture and happy which we are going to desperately need with being at war during the entire game however we need to know where the copper/horses are.

I am in agreement with the intended path as outlined by Greyfox. I am sure Greyfox you know appr. when barb axes will start showing up so we need to make sure we either have chariots, archers, or axemen by then.

As to the hydra we missed that boat already (well Buddhism in 12 turns says it) so if we want another religion it will have to be a later one considering the circumstances of our map. By the time we get our first settler out Genghis will have two or three settled already. This is going to be a real challenge having Gandhi 8 tiles away and Genghis spawning like crazy. I hope the SG pro's can make this work as I have my concerns as how well we will do. If there is room to grow north then we should try to cut off any AI's from taking any land. We seem to be also on the same landmass as Gandhi so we need protect ourselves from him too and barbs.

Bottom line:

Military path is needed to contain Genghis/barbs and keep Gandhi at bay since he spawns too and techs fast.
A secondary tech path == writing for libs and scientists...
Pottery shouldn't be too far off for some cottages if we can contain the barbs

Also if it's ok I would like to be included in the roster Maquis. Right now I have no idea where I stand turnwise. It is likely I don't get to play this week and weekend is out so put me at the bottom so that I can play early next week.

We need a roster and turns that each player is playing. 20 turns sounds good to me for the first round and thereafter down to 10 or 15.

I was indeed thinking Judaism AND to get it into the capitol, why? 2 religions are better than one. Or... 2 shrines... I allways try to stack religions cause off Wall Street, there is only 1. So 2 shrines in 1 city = mucho money = good place for WS.
Given that it is nearly impossible to get a second religion into the capitol once we have city #2...
Maybe we can stack 2 other religions someplace...

Khaaan is allways a pain and needs to be delt with. Tho I dont know given the nature of the game if it is wise to cripple him, we want the AI to run away from us while we limp behind someplace... Maybe we should pull an All gore?? Limit our cities to like 4 or 5, make sure we "create some space" here and there for Gandhi...

We dont need the happy that much, WW only comes when you fight and Gandhi is not one to send over a huge stack remember SGOTM2 where we didnt get any WW from beeing at war either.

I suspect there is not to much land to our immediate north either would be looking more like continents if there was. I also think there is the water blocking Gandhi from getting to us (in the north), so if he is going to get us it is going to have to be thru the long walk south. But I agree we need some defense in place other than Warriors.

How about throwing in Priesthood (IIRC) for the Oracle to pick up MC and/or some GP points for the shrine.

I guess that is your intention when suggesting Masonry + Mono, but I really don't think we will survive Khan if we go that route. We are not isolated enough to grab multi-headed hydra. The gold benefits is long term wise but we have to survive in the short term first.

I am still inclined to my outlined tech path.

Research: AH > BW > Argi > Writing or IW or Archery (depending on barbs and copper appearance)

Build: Warrior (too much hammer invested, I will let it complete) > Scout (worth it?) > Warrior > Settler

Countdown to the time I start playing: 24hrs

namliaM should post an updated roster as you are voted the leader :D

Roster
namliaM -- +1 gmt (Actually +2 atm due to DST)
Greyfox -- +8 gmt
Maquis -- -7 gmt
Bobrath -- -5 gmt (I think please clarify)
Healium -- ?gmt
Scowler -- gmt
Frankcor-- -5 gmt
Cosmichail -- -5gmt (I think)

I currently have no clue what the timeline is on BW... in conjunction with the settler... but how about this?

Warrior (MP) > Warrior > Warrior (for some fog busting and some scouting) > Lighthouse > Settler (whipped for 2 or 3 pop)

I dont know about Agriculture, we dont really need the corn online yet... we have plenty of food as it is (for now). Can we skip Agri and go for Wheel => Pottery instead?
Allowing us to build that granary and start some cottages in city #2.

Are we still rooting for the Oracle? If so we need to plan that in someplace too.

Again, I'm on Central Standard Time which right now is -6 gmt, however the States will be switching to daylight savings time in a few weeks and that will move me to -5gmt.

My initial Hyrda comment would only have applied if were sufficiently isolated to not have to worry about teching into a war right away. Genghis as a neighbor makes that tough. SO:

I see two paths here for our long term strat:
1) "Please Don't Hurt Me" - in which we go tech crazy and get into a defensible position that allows us to hold off attacks but not go crazy aggresive. We give out techs like its Christmas and hope that Ghandi launches - We try to affect the world via spies and perhaps controlling the UN.
2) "Did I do that?" - build up a nice core set of cities in our current starting position. Ones that would be perfect for building spaceship parts (space elevator would be ultimate). We also build up a second core of cities that is decently removed from the first. We'll need to have good military power to do this since we'll be carving out a new empire AND maintaining it across a span. At a relatively key point, we abandon the first core in such a way that Ghandi is able to roll those cities up with no cares and we sit back to watch the launch - applying the hammer to anyone that looks wrong at Ghandi.

Assuming we can count on Ghandi to take a city from us (big assumption imo), then the second option is much more likely to induce the loss we want. However, its going to take some pretty hefty planning and playing to make sure we time it right AND can afford to do it.

So shrining and wall streeting up our capital to make great financial strides... will help the early part of the later strategy since it could cover the costs of running a larger empire. We've got a financial trait - use it!

Lastly, we're freakin vikings! Where is our exploratory ship in the above two builds? Knowing the size and shape of our world will be key to game planning and ships will be able to do that faster and safer then land units (don't forget our UB).

For beeing vikings we would want the Trading post up to ensure our 3rd move ... Or??

To count on Gandhi to have units to spare to take cities from us that are perfect for building parts... well... I think that is indeed a big assumption + we had better do it EARLY => No need for lots of money.
AI will rebuild a lot of infrastructure prior to building SS parts in captured teritory.

How about 3:
We tech like crazy and war every now and again razing cities opening spaces for Gandhi to plop down new cities.
The down side of this is that the ideal place for Gandhi to expand into is OUR space which would be just east of his capitol. However we need that for our expansion.
Thus falling back into 2, counting on Gandhi to capture those cities as we cannot raze our own cities....
Also we will have to deal with the (big?) WW of losing cities in a war...

Or 1b Please dont hurt anyone, except ...
Once we hit industrialism (or somesort of tech there abouts) we go after every civ. Not to destroy them but pillage/raze/capture everything that looks like it can produce a SS part inside of 10 turns. But in that same process do not touch anything that looks like it is pumping out science.
Leaving the tech beast(s) in one peace, but killing production... That way Gandhi cannot help but win I think/hope...

GMT +1

just a couple of ideas:

one of the keys to a good placement should be to keep up the worldwide techspeed and have as many civs as possible trade with ghandi. kind of an addition to keep in mind for the "Please Don't Hurt Me" strategy.

maybe we can try to have two wars with the Genghis. in the first we cripple him bad so he is not match for the second war. just before we start war II we give him lots of tech that he will than hopefully give to ghandi once they have the mutual thing against us.

what is the fastest launch date possible in monarch?(UN in 1310 anyone?) and how is it done? we should try to tech into that direction and than do some sort of tech/infrastructure transfer to ghandi.

the only way to have ghandi take cities from us should be him capturing them right? or can we gift cities without signing peace?


just a few questions because this is my first SGOTM:
i installed the latest HOF Mod what should i/do i have to enable in the options?
am i allowed to download the save and have look at it if i don´t move anything?
to what size would u like me to resize the screenshots?

You can't trade anything during war, except when negotiating peace treaty. For this case, we can't even bring up the diplo screen with Gandhi in a permanent war state.

As I'd mention much much earlier, the only way to transfer tech to Gandhi is to have him capture a city with Internet built. But that's much much later.

To avoid WW from losing cities... gift them to another civ that's at war with Ghandi as well, then attack them to wipe out defenders and *hope* Ghandi moves in?

I do agree that we have to be somewhat the bully in this game. Anything that looks remotely frightening or threatening to Ghandi has to be smashed (so we'll need to be exploring and scouting the entire game). Until we know what Ghandi has available to him for his own expansion, some of this discussion will be moot. If Baldy has a huge island to himself then we're golden. *if* on the other hand he has a tiny spec then we're going to have to do some clearing/creative city gifting.


BTW, is city raizing turned on or off for this game?

Roster
namliaM -- +1 gmt (Actually +2 atm due to DST)
Greyfox -- +8 gmt
Maquis -- -7 gmt
Bobrath -- -5 gmt
Healium -- +1 gmt
Scowler -- gmt
Frankcor-- -5 gmt
Cosmichail -- -5gmt (I think)

@Healium
If you load the save either by double clicking it or using the game menu the HoF mod will automaticaly be loaded. So if you dont want to play your SP game with it, you dont have to do anything but for maybe enable an option here or there.
Once loaded you will find a few extra options available to you in the options screen.
I suggest you make sure to check:
- Exotic Foreign Advisor
- CIV4LERTS
They are of great help... IMHO

You are allowed to download the save and look at things. The general rule is: Look but dont touch.
You are allowed to change things IF they can be undone, like changing the worked tiles inside a city. As they can allways be rearranged.
But you are not allowed to do anything that cannot be undone like arrange a peace treaty.
If in doubt, look but dont touch.

Screenshots as a general rule I believe are "forum size" i.e. 800x600 IIRC is the bigest screen that will fit inside the frame(s) of the forum on your average 1200x1000 (IIRC) screen.

@Bob
There are no special options clicked other than "no diplo victory" so we can do anything we want to anyone anyway (except kill Gandhi)

** Me off play SP to kill Gandhi **

-5 gmt

The best place I find for uploading pictures is photobucket where the picture is downsized to 800X600 automatically. Once it's uploaded it will provide a link to paste into your report.

@bobrath - city razing is on as the first stated that all other settings are default but better to check that in game.

As to Gandhi taking our cities we'll we've seen how effective Monty was at that. I have my doubts about that unless it's on his doorstep. I am sure if we keep the wolves from Gandhi's doorstep he will do fine unless there are other civs on the other side of him. Fractal can be several large landmasses so there may be another continent out there.

Again my concern is if we can keep up with the AI having lots of room to spawn unlike our last Sgotm where they had no room and we could tech very fast especially having the TGL. I think we should consider that this game will play a lot differently than the last in teching/warring.

@Healium - we have to hope that Genghis has a good relationship with Gandhi if we give him techs.

As to getting a ship out there after trading post I concur.

The area west of us, we are going to need badly for happy since we don't have any in capitol. We need to get what we want fast and again watch out for Genghis he spawn cities very fast.

At this point talking about gifting cities to Gandhi is academic until we get our empire afloat. We should go a military route as Genghis can be unpredictable and attack at the worst time. I would even say if we have copper we just take him out completely especially if he's lacking it.

From what I can see Gandhi has gems in his capitol so he will tech fine on his own probably better than us. We need to strategize on a turn by turn basis rather than try to plan so far ahead. The game is way too volatile to make any long, long term plans until we get our empire up and running. Our capitol will spit out units very fast and building any wonders at this point may not be a good idea with an imperialistic civ south of us. The AI may even settle right away on OUR spot just to get happy resources etc. So don't be surprised when our settler is ready that spot is gone. (I have seen AI travel very far just to get happy/health resources and Genghis can build settlers very fast)

Fortunately that imperialistic trait becomes kind of useless after he's finished settling except for the GG bonus.

@bobrath - city razing is on as the first stated that all other settings are default but better to check that in game.
Which is what I did before posting the same ...

Gandhi has both Gems and Gold both of which he can mine right off (I spotted a worker mining the northern gem allready when our scout was there).

So Yes.... Maybe Gandhi can tech just fine on his own and all we need to do is make sure no one goes space (except gandhi) bet lets see what the game brings.

I do slightly disagree with you cosmic. I think we need a firm plan atleast for now to start. As simple as:
1) Do we kill each AI (except gandhi)
2) Do we keep every AI and cripple them later (near the end)
Makes for a totaly different stratagy...

1) Do we kill each AI (except gandhi)
2) Do we keep every AI and cripple them later (near the end)
Makes for a totaly different stratagy...


How does that change strategy please clarify. Yes a big picture approach is good but the best of plans are often changed by unforeseen circumstances.

I think the questions should be this:

Can we keep up enough with AI to even cripple them. Monarch warlords and lots of land means AI will grow very, very fast. Just look at Nidaros 2 pop and Karakorum at 6 already.

I don't think with this type of map you can just build an empire and let AI do their thing. NOT a good idea. We need to act fast and cripple Genghis as fast as we can before he becomes too big for us to handle and we are facing longbows. Expansion is a problem at this stage too as once you get to 5 cities that's it you start to feel the pinch. Even with Ragnar's financial trait it becomes difficult to expand fast beyond 5 cites until some cottages start to mature and COL is available for courthouses or markets for increased revenue. Another thing too is the trade routes which again we won't have much revenue from until we meet other civs who are on the same landmass and we can broker deals with.

So again how does the strategy at this point differ?
Build order - or tech order

We really can't make an informed decision until we know more about our surroundings so I think initial strategy should be this:

Teching as outlined by Greyfox (totally agree)
Build trading post and ship to explore and find us some more AI's

The barbs too with a lot of fog out there will also become a problem soon so we need to plan for that as well and as we know warriors don't cut as barbs axes are never that far away.

We need archers/ or chariots/ or axes soon. By knowing where the horses/copper is we will need to get settled whereever it is and if we are lucky and it's in the capitol even better.

That's the immediate plan

Long term: take down Genghis asap.

Don't leave him to spawn or get big enough to cause major grief. It would be a big mistake to leave him imo and we are Ragnar (check his history) we don't sit idly by and watch another civ take all our lands. Forget that. Let Genghis spawn at first it means he is using hammers for settlers in the mean time if our capitol should have copper then we should strike fast especially if he grabs something we want.

Also what stops Gandhi from just sailing across those waters and settling near us. Stupid AI will settle even during war right on your borders.

One thing we have advantage right now is production as the AI tends to even cottage grass hills so production tends to be light with them. That too can be Gandhi's achilles heal since he tends to do that as well so he tends to have his cities lightly defended. We need to assess what is on the other side of him. Maybe Gyathaar has a keen sense of humour (being Viking and all) and put another aggressive civ on the other side of Gandhi. Now that would make for interesting gameplay. If it's Alexander even more fun with the Berserkers.

So again how far ahead can you plan when we don't know much yet. We need intel then make long term plans. If another civ is on the other side of Gandhi our long term strategy completely changes especially if it's an aggressive AI. IF is a big word and if my aunt had nuts she'd be my uncle or as Greyfox said Pigs fly. So INTEL is needed to make informed decisions.

I cannot say much to that. But... agree...

1 vs 2 = 1 we make sure Gandhi is left alone to tech and build as he sees fit.
Slower teching but guerantee we lose to spaceship of Gandhi

2 Faster teching but a lot harder on the end where we need to control the other AI not to launch before Gandhi does....

Feels good to me Cosmic - I agree with the tech path as stated and on the need for exploration. Pending the discovery of bronze, we'll be making some fun choices soon.

Countdown to the time I start playing: 24hrs


Alright, that was 26 hours ago. :whipped: :whipped:

We are listed as the 2nd most cultured, thanks to the Dancing Goddess:

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f81/9r3yf0x/sgotm02/vq4-BC2470-cultured.jpg

We got animal husbandry, and I played until we get bronze working. The good news is, each resource revealed by each tech are within our great 2nd-in-the-world culture.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f81/9r3yf0x/sgotm02/vq4-BC2080-ah-bw.jpg

I explored the north, and indeed, we are blocked land wise from India:

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f81/9r3yf0x/sgotm02/vq4-BC2080-blocked.jpg

The barbs are starting to spawn like the infestation they are. First our scout got killed by a lion, then a few barbs suicided into our warrior:

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f81/9r3yf0x/sgotm02/vq4-BC2290-barbs.jpg

They even have a city nearby:

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f81/9r3yf0x/sgotm02/vq4-BC2080-gandhi-barb.jpg

As apparent from the screenshot above, Gandhi has at least a second city.

Here is the resource map: dot-map-fanatics, ready your paintbrush!

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f81/9r3yf0x/sgotm02/vq4-BC2080-map.jpg

>>> The Save (2080BC) (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/VQ_SG004_BC2080_01.CivWarlordsSave) <<<


Turn 43, 2710 BC: Combat Odds: 32.2%
Turn 43, 2710 BC: (Class Animal Combat: +100%)
Turn 43, 2710 BC: VQ's Scout is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 43, 2710 BC: VQ's Scout is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 43, 2710 BC: VQ's Scout is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 43, 2710 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 43, 2710 BC: VQ's Scout is hit for 19 (0/100HP)

Turn 45, 2650 BC: Barbarian's Lion (2.00) vs VQ's Warrior (4.10)
Turn 45, 2650 BC: Combat Odds: 0.8%
Turn 45, 2650 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 45, 2650 BC: (Animal Combat: +20%)
Turn 45, 2650 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 45, 2650 BC: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 45, 2650 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 45, 2650 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 45, 2650 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 45, 2650 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 45, 2650 BC: VQ's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Lion!

Turn 46, 2620 BC: Gandhi adopts Slavery!

Turn 48, 2560 BC: You have discovered Animal Husbandry!

Turn 50, 2500 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs VQ's Warrior (3.70)
Turn 50, 2500 BC: Combat Odds: 1.2%
Turn 50, 2500 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 50, 2500 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 50, 2500 BC: VQ's Warrior is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 50, 2500 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 50, 2500 BC: VQ's Warrior is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 50, 2500 BC: VQ's Warrior is hit for 14 (58/100HP)
Turn 50, 2500 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 50, 2500 BC: VQ's Warrior is hit for 14 (44/100HP)
Turn 50, 2500 BC: VQ's Warrior is hit for 14 (30/100HP)
Turn 50, 2500 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 50, 2500 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 50, 2500 BC: VQ's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 57, 2290 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs VQ's Warrior (3.78)
Turn 57, 2290 BC: Combat Odds: 2.5%
Turn 57, 2290 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 57, 2290 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 57, 2290 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 57, 2290 BC: VQ's Warrior is hit for 14 (76/100HP)
Turn 57, 2290 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 57, 2290 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 57, 2290 BC: VQ's Warrior is hit for 14 (62/100HP)
Turn 57, 2290 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 57, 2290 BC: VQ's Warrior is hit for 14 (48/100HP)
Turn 57, 2290 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 57, 2290 BC: VQ's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 59, 2230 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs VQ's Warrior (4.09)
Turn 59, 2230 BC: Combat Odds: 1.8%
Turn 59, 2230 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 59, 2230 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 59, 2230 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 59, 2230 BC: (Feature: +20%)
Turn 59, 2230 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 59, 2230 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 59, 2230 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 59, 2230 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 59, 2230 BC: VQ's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 63, 2110 BC: You have discovered Bronze Working!
Turn 63, 2110 BC: You have discovered a source of Copper near Nidaros!


Opps, think I forgot to enabled it, sorry! :hammer2:


Edit: @bob: I said start playing, give me sometime to actually play and report ;)

Wow we have both horses and copper in the capitol. Oddly enough we were talking about that on skype (namliaM). I felt that the terrain north of capitol is suitable for a copper find. Sure enough there it is. So move north really pays off now as capitol definitely will be good production center. Those barbs are going to get pesky as we see now already. Good thing we can start building axes once we a get roads. So I take the next tech choice ought to be wheel to connect our resources.

Good stuff and Gandhi growing nicely too. Khan probably has another city too but not visible yet. I see our settler will be done soon which is good so that second city will be up soon.

Yes, we should go for wheel ... I simply click on argiculture without thinking, as I intend to stop right when we learnt BW.

The capitol really turn out well, but the bad thing abt the copper site is it means one less cottage. Good thing abt it is it appears on a grassland, meaning working on it would be self-sufficient. Note also that had we not move north, we would be changing copper for a horse.

One thing is Khan is boxed in, unless there is more land towards the south. This might be good, might be bad. It certainly means that we should get-prepared for an inevitable mongolian campaign.

I have one turn invested in Trading Post while waiting for city to grow. What I am worried is our commerce rate. I had to alternate between working on the lake and the hills to have BW and settler come online at almost the same time. Our next city should be at the triple-gold site to enhance our commerce, either pulling in the fish or the corn. The corn might be a better choice, since that means we don't have to worry abt Gandhi pillaging it. However, that does means we need to learn agriculture soon. Also fish would produce 1 more food than corn field, I think pre-biology with a trading post. Plus fish represent +1 health, since we already have corn in the capitol.

Also, I had not revolted to Slavery, preferring to have the settler finish first.
--

Had a look at the save and looks like that fish is very close to Gandhi. namliaM was suggesting for the gold we settle inland near corn I think. If we settled in that area then we need IW and get rid of the jungles.

Notice too we have marble south of us and Genghis has horses in his fatcross. Yikes..... Yes a Mongolian campaign is inevitable. Having Gandhi separated by mountains will keep him at a distance until we have grown somewhat. Of course he could easily traverse over by boat to our landmass. Even having a coastal city on that side wouldn't hurt to have the ability to send troops over quickly should Gandhi have another civ on the other side of him and he's under attack. Just a thought.

Didn't look to closely at the barb city but of course they get in way of our wanting the gems or gold. Is that city positioned good for taking or does it need to be razed?? Knowing barbs probably settled one tile from coast.

Have fun Bob...........

I dont like the idea of culture battling gandhi over those fish.
The fish gold site is also food poor I think... and has quite a bit of overlap with Nidaros.

It looks like we can put down 2 or 3 decent cities north of Nidaros if we choose... as well as grabbing the Gems and Gold sites. makes for atleast 5 cities...

What is the next build after the settler? Trading post/Axeman/Barracks/Settler (whipped for 2?)

Edit: Nice going fox, getting our Woodsman Scout eaten ! :yumyum:

IIRC we don't need a road to be hooked up to the copper... Its on a coast as is or city and since we have sailing then the sea acts as our road... Right?

@GreyFox, I gave you 2 hours to play and post! hee hee. Good stuff, great to see all the progress we've made so far.

Not playing until much later tonight (at least 10 hours), but more likely will play tomorrow depending on discussion that occurs.

I do want lots of feedback on the second city site. The aggresive player in me wants to reach far into Khan's territory now to try to disrupt his expansion by blocking his borders off. While the tech-monger likes that gold site.

MY quick n dirty dotmap (of ugly snap reflexes)
http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/198/vq4bc2080mapst1.jpg

Light blue indicates my aggresive founding thoughts. Left Solid dot is an easy choice, right hollow dot loses the coastal bonus, but picks up a better location with the corn - and closes our borders sooner. Light blue pair is also across the jungle and that makes for a bit less reliance upon iron working for clearing duties right away. I do like snatching the marble from Genhis. Might make a difference if we figure out what's under that fog north of light blue

Red is the barb city and I think we should probably raise it and refound it one west. That is on a gem resource, but it puts us on the coast - key for ragnar. Since that barb city is in a jungle, I'd suggest postponing taking it until we have the work bandwidth to do some jungle clearing. We can camp a cover axe or two in the jungle next to it and be perfectly safe from barb excursions.

Dark blue solid picks up the corn, but hollow to the west is on a hill for better defense. Not sure being near Ghandi what we would like there. Solid is the better site from a pure resource point of view. Not sure about all those hills tho.

Anyway, feel free to rip it up!

I do think you need a road for the copper but I hope I'm wrong and learn something new.

As to second city site (sounds like comic team Akroyd/Belushi/Candy) I agree with namliaM, too food poor to work anything at gold site. Better to go after gems spices/sugar and corn. Somewhere in that area except barbs are there now. Maybe give our new axes something to do and get some experience. I like the idea of going right up Genghis's kazoo but last time I did that in SP prince game got DOW fairly soon thereafter. Plus we really need a super commerce city and benefit from Ragnar's trait. Capitol will pump out axes pretty fast but we are definitely going to need spears with him having horses in fatcross. Would like to see what he has in his city and where he built his 2nd city. (we can't see but I'm sure he must have built one by now)

Let's hope he has no copper. Looking forward to your turn and take your time Bob no hurry. (Well I'll be counting down 10 hours now or do you need 2 hours extra to play and post....:lol: )

EDIT: crossposted I like the barb city although it's one tile from coast maybe move 1 inland as the hollow blue dot (I think) will interfere with Gandhi's culture.

I said at least 10 hours!!!!! ;)

Geez an hour has already passed by so 9 hours now?:p

Also I do agree Ragnar should build coastal cities always but in the case of the gems/spices/sugar I think moving inland would serve us well being that we pickup the corn too. Yep jungle land unfortunately but like you say we don't have to rush that site and can choose elsewhere. Putting axes at barb city will help us keep an eye in the event Genghis gets frisky with barbs.

So as an alternate I'd say the hollow cyan dot but really don't like that desert south if that is what it is. We do get the marble but personally I think we really need a commerce site now but barb area is going to need lots of workers which will take time and if we settle there now won't do us much good for a while.

The other thing I like about moving 1 inland at barb site too is it will cut GK off from getting to north and take lands there but again I leave it in your hands what do Bob since I am torn about where to settle.

We definatly need the road on the copper! Come on bob, you must be kidding...

We could move the gold city 2 tiles east, that way it can take the pigs from Nadiros and the Corn, makes for some much needed food.

I like the hollow blue over the red (barb?) dot... but I am not sure about settling that coast... We would have to park some triremes on watch there to protect them nets... wasting ours and Gandhi's hammers... Maybe we should leave that entire coast to Gandhi?? On both sides that is....
Tho I hate losing that gems... guess we have to find some commerce someplace???

And there is the (obvious) sugar/horse city south of Nadira

I finally got to this thread yesterday (but it took me a day to catch up reading). Your official lurker is reporting for duty now!

I am reading this right... Bob's grabbed the save? That's alright with me, as long I know that and do not take it as well!

Last I saw from namliaM was:

namliaM -- +1 gmt (Actually +2 atm due to DST)
Greyfox -- +8 gmt
Maquis -- -7 gmt
Bobrath -- -5 gmt
Healium -- +1 gmt
Scowler -- gmt
Frankcor-- -5 gmt
Cosmichail -- -5gmt (I think)

I can take it anytime tonight or tomorrow, as it looks like I'll be snowed in again! (another foot on top of the 2 feet last weekend!)


I do like the idea of moving the gold site east... we want enough food to work all 3 mines... so having access to the Pigs is nice; I don't think there's enough food with just the corn to work all 3 mines... at least not till late.


As for where to settle, I don't think we need to rush to the gold site... but it may be wise to rush to block off GK. He'll be a b*tch to take out once he has Keshiks... Not sure if we could build up and have such an early war however?

We definatly need the road on the copper! Come on bob, you must be kidding...
I'm not kidding, but I'll be anxious to see. (being stuck at work sucks!)


We could move the gold city 2 tiles east, that way it can take the pigs from Nadiros and the Corn, makes for some much needed food.

Nice choice in that it would keep the 3 gold in its BFC.


I like the hollow blue over the red (barb?) dot... but I am not sure about settling that coast... We would have to park some triremes on watch there to protect them nets... wasting ours and Gandhi's hammers... Maybe we should leave that entire coast to Gandhi?? On both sides that is....
Tho I hate losing that gems... guess we have to find some commerce someplace???

With that site, I was pretty much ignoring the sea resources. I would only work "normal" sea squares and wouldn't contest the sea squares unless we got parked (which I've never seen an AI do). Post calendar hollow red dot would be a great site.


And there is the (obvious) sugar/horse city south of Nadira

Not sure I see the exact site... but the one I drew does look like a good second tier site in my new and improved (with commentary) dot map:
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/5883/vq4bc2080mapnextdi9.jpg

Numbers indicate order I would found them - assuming we go either cyan OR dark blue. Barb city comes later (ie at our convenience). I don't know that conceding the west coast to Ghandi is necessary. We can still (imo) put cities there - they can act as magnets and lookouts for any invasion. But additionally, if we ever do decide to hand over cities they would benefit from immediate "inclusion" into the upgraded Indian empire.

As I was drawing the above dotmap, I got to be more and more enchanted with the cyan plan. Moving the eastern one inland avoids the desert and picks up some nice perks. Those two sites are viable sites in their own rights, but combined they seal off our peninsula. Yes, distance wise they are less optimal both from a maint and military pov, however they would bust a good chunk of fog. :p Would definitely need a good road from capital to cyan1 to speed any axes that we build in capital AND to provide the copper for self built axes (not to mention bringing marble to our capital).

I am reading this right... Bob's grabbed the save? That's alright with me, as long I know that and do not take it as well!

I think GreyFox is trying to set the stage for one day him handing another Nara off to me! I have not picked up the save Maquis, its all yours.


As for where to settle, I don't think we need to rush to the gold site... but it may be wise to rush to block off GK. He'll be a b*tch to take out once he has Keshiks... Not sure if we could build up and have such an early war however?

Sounds like you're leaning my way. Muah ha ha

Ok I got it; playing in a few hours. I'm still leaning toward settling south... anyone have a major objection? Looking at the save, GK may have some more land to the SW...

keshiks are not that bad if you have a few spears both on offence and defence ...

I am allmost sure that corn is going to be high on Khan's list of sites to settle... I dont think we can get there in time...

Cyan 2 looks low on food to me :(

Blue one is exactly where I thought... Dont forget we can put atleast 2 good cities maybe even 3 up north...

I'm fine with the south site cyan no 1 but do not like the gold blue #1. Why it takes the pigs away Nidaros which has a lot of plains hills to work so just clams/corn may not be enough unless you convince me otherwise.

Maquis don't be surprised when you try to settle Genghis isn't far away as he has to have settled second city by now being imperialistic. Although fog is gone we haven't scouted lately there I think and maybe some cities there already. If anything he has to have settled the wine/sheep area by now which still gives us room to settle on cyan no.1

Have fun Maquis and I remember Minnesota's weather well. Spent some time in Manitoba (another lovely place for weather) and travelled quite a bit to North Dakota/Minnesota. No wonder good hockey team there. We are getting freezing rain tomorrow oh goody.

EDIT: Blue site is great for that city I am just concerned what happens to Nidaros since it can't build any farms and only will have two food sources.

I think GreyFox is trying to set the stage for one day him handing another Nara off to me! I have not picked up the save Maquis, its all yours.

Huh? I don't think I had mention who's up after me.

Yeah, blame me for everything.

(whipped for 2?)

Please, NO WHIPPING (unless in really dire situation).

Our capitol has 5 hills and a copper. Currently we have max happiness of 6. If we need the production, simply assign all 6 pops to work on all 6 mines and you get at least 18 hammers per turn. In 3 turns we would have exceeded the amount of hammers a pop can give. Even if you can show me how the capitol can re-grow back to size 6 in 2 turns, it is still not worth it to incur the happiness penalty.

I think bob may be right in the no road is needed (I recall something like this in SGOTM1).

But we still need road for the horses.

--

Quick report here... mostly uneventful 20 turns...

Tech:
I switched us to Wheel instead of Ag. We will need to road to the copper to get it online.

Once Wheel was learned, I went for Ag. That came in on turn 18, so I picked Masonry next. Why? Maybe we want Marble? :)

If you didn't figure it out... I sent the settler south, to Cyan #1. Kahn has not expanded to the north at all (yet!)

Here's Upsala:

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/7760/civ4screenshot0002pt0.jpg


Back in our capital, once the Trading Post was built, I got a little bold...

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/8341/civ4screenshot0004kx1.jpg


Hopefully no one was opposed to an early wonder! (With our production, it was only 11 turns to complete!)

This of course will help all our cities' culture early on... as well as the GPP points (to get a later religion, or the shrine)

One other thing of note, Gandhi founded Judism. Hopefully that's a good sign that he's teching along just fine...

As I ended my turns, the workers were almost completed hooking up the horses, and still need to road the copper mine (yes, it needs to be roaded, we can't build axes yet!) They will need to farm the corn still as well.

Here's the (short!) turnlog:
Turn 72, 1840 BC: Uppsala has been founded.

Turn 74, 1780 BC: You have discovered The Wheel!

Turn 81, 1570 BC: You have discovered Agriculture!

Turn 82, 1540 BC: Judaism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 83, 1510 BC: VQ has completed Stonehenge!
Turn 83, 1510 BC: Gandhi adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 83, 1510 BC: Gandhi converts to Judaism!

And the save: VQ BC1450 (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4//VQ_SG004_BC1450_01.CivWarlordsSave)

Wow, we got stonehedge? That probably save us the trouble of monument.

Hmm ... I am surprise that GK has yet settle up ... it seems like there is more land to the south in which he must be settling first.

Don't know abt Masonry though ... we need writing and pottery ASAP ... and the capitol shouldn't be stagnanting ...

Overall our progress are looking good. :goodjob:

--

Wow taking 2 chances in 1 turnset... Grabbing the Hedge and walking out that far to get a new city... Nice going getting that city... and the free obelisks will help the borders... Do we want to go all the way and grab Cyan 2 as well before grabing blue 1 and 2 (or 2 and 1)??

Upsulla gets +6 food with the (farmed) corn, it has 15! one food tiles. Making it a total of -9 food, or pre-biology it is going to need 9 farms. 4 grassland cottages and 6 plains/grassland hill tiles/cottages? It can work 10 cottages, making quite a nice commerce city.
The marble hint is that intended to finger towards the most famous of marble based miracles TGL? If we want it do we want it in Upsulla or Nadiro? Or in the gold city?

About the gold city, we dont have to take the pigs if we dont want to...
The 3 gold hills + plains? Hill + 3 plains + 1 grass hill = -12 food.
The Corn gives +4 and CC +2 = 6 food, leaving us with 6 food to find somewhere, either farmed grassland/plains or the pigs + farms.

Nadiro needs 11 food to work all the tiles. CC (2) + Corn (4) + Lake (1) + Clams (3) = 10. So we just need the one farm to work all the tiles (excluding the pigs). And we can swap the pigs between the capitol (when it needs growing) and the Gold city when the capitol is maxed.

I think if you want to max out the usage of the Gold and NOT use the fish in that water between us and Gandhi the only and fastest way by far is to work the Pigs (+4) + Corn (Unirrigated! +3) for +9 food so we can work the 3 gold mines (-6 food). Without the pigs we can hardly work the gold mines pre-CS (chain farming) without moving the city and working the (netted => pillagable) fish.

Refering to the workers as "they" means we have atleast 2? One should start *under armed escort* start roading south towards Upsulla and blue 2. Maybe skipping the city spot for Blue 2 (if we plant that down soon) to allow road completion when the city is planted and saving worker turns. And/Or are we building a worker in Upsulla?
We should connect the cities ASAP as we are missing out on 2 commerce (traderoutes) per turn. Which is roughly an increase of 12.5% of our current commerce rate.

I think too we want Pottery over Masonry, it is going to be a while before those borders expand and we have a worker in Upsulla to start working the marble (if at all). If not for cottages, then we do need the Granary.
Also having Priesthood might be nice both for another Marble based wonder and the temples to outfit our religion with.

Re: (not) Whipping the capitol

a) Working all 6 mines yields 5 food (-7fpt)/25 hammers (4 plains hills (0/16) + Copper (2/4) + Grass hill (1/3) + CC (2/2) ).
The foodbar on size 6 can hold 20 + 3*6 = 38 food, meaning we can sustain this for 5 turns if the foodbar is nearly full at >35 food. 5 * 25 = 125

b) Then we go back to working food, Corn, Pigs and Clams. +4 +4 and +3(assuming lighthouse) respectively, adding the copper 2/4, CC 2/2, Grass hill 1/3 and Plains 0/4. Getting the city to +8fpt, taking again ~5 turns to fill the foodbar. 13hpt * 5 = 65 hammers.
Rince and repeat for a 10 turn cicle of 190 hammers for 30 turns (2 whips) = 570 hammers.

Actually ... due to b having +8 and a having -7 we can run a for a total of 8 and b a total of 7 turns out of the 15 and be (effectively) at 0 food.
8 * 25 + 7 * 13 = 291
For 30 turns that is 291 * 2 = 582

Not whipping Nadiro earns us 582 hammers in 30 turns alternating between all production and Max food/production.


Assuming a granary...
Size 4>5 requires a total of 32 food, Size 5>6 requires 19 food, Size 6>7 requires 21 food, 15 food (or more) added to the granary for a total of 32 (but less than 38!) food on size 6 will make the city grow from 4>5 the next turn if you whip for 2 pop.

In 15 turns we need to grow 15 food (required on size 6) plus 19 food to grow 5>6. For a total of 34 or an average of ~2.2666 fpt.
Or +2fpt and need an additional 4 someplace.
1 Turn at size 4: Clams (5/0) + CC (2/2) + Copper (2/4) + Grass hill (1/3) + Corn (6/0) = 16(+8f)/9
At size 5:
a) Corn (6/0) + Clams (5/0) + CC (2/2) + Copper (2/4) + Grass hill (1/3) + Plains hill (0/4) = 16(+4fpt)/13
b) Clams (5/0) + CC (2/2) + Copper (2/4) + Grass hill (1/3) + 2 Plains hill (0/8) = 16(-2fpt)/17
c) Pigs (6/0) + Corn (6/0) + Clams (5/0) + CC (2/2) + Copper (2/4) + Grass hill (1/3) = 22(+12)/9
d) Pigs (6/0) + Corn (6/0) + Clams (5/0) + CC (2/2) + Copper (2/4) + Plains hill (0/4) = 22(+11)/10

Idealy we want to end turn 15 at the required 32 food at size 6, but stay as long at size 5 as possible to keep from sustaining the unhappy face. Thus we have the 8 food carried over from size 4 and want to limit our food at size 5 to 34 so we dont grow. 8 + 16 (granary) = 24 so we can do
a 1 turn +4/13 Total: 28 food 22 hammers
b 9 turns -18/153 Total: 10/175

Changing to c to grow to the required size 6....
d 3 turns +33/30 Total: 43 (+8 to size 6)/215
At size 6 we run d except now we have a foodsurplus of only 9 due to the one unhappy. The granary brings 17 from size 5, requiring 1 turn at size 6 (1 unhappy). Total: 17 + 8 + 9 = 35 food / 225
Add the whip of 2 pop = 88 (IIRC it is not 90 due to a rounding error) = 303 hammers in 15 turns.
In 30 turns: 606 hammers.
While staying in size 5 as much as possible we offcourse get a lower (net) production. But after adding the 2 whips one can do in 30 turns, makes for a total of 606 hammers.

Tho both require -some- MM, the whipping (I think) is a little more MM switching tiles 3 times and whipping once every 15 turns.
Just working the tiles requires switching tiles once every ~5 turns to not grow or not starve.
The whip beats the not-whip situation by some >20 hammers per 30 turns or roughly a free archer. All in all the difference is less than I had expected from looking at the chart I made here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5143911&postcount=27) on page 2.

Roster
namliaM -- +1 gmt (Actually +2 atm due to DST)
Greyfox -- +8 gmt
Maquis -- -7 gmt
Bobrath -- -5 gmt < UP
Healium -- +1 gmt > Get ready cause here it comes ;)
Scowler -- gmt
Frankcor-- -5 gmt
Cosmichail -- -5gmt (I think)

*** Disclaimer ***
Please let me know if you find any errors in the whipping thing...

Wow, totally didn't expect to get a wonder built! I do guess that means we have yet to send out a ship to explore tho... grumble.

I suspect my turns will be centered around units more then improvements. We've got to have barbs showing up in greater numbers, at least until we can fog bust efficiently.

Where to found our next city? I'd prefer cyan 2 to seal our border off from Khan's settlers. Yes he hasn't founded towards us and may have tons of room below him, but why not make sure we've carved out our own nice chunk of land in the mean time?

Teching towards pottery and writing next makes sense to me.

Any input on how many turns I should play?

I suspect my turns will be centered around units more then improvements. We've got to have barbs showing up in greater numbers, at least until we can fog bust efficiently.

I actually only saw one barb (warrior) during my turnset, and he was headed off to Mongolian lands... So they're not exactly raging at this point...

And no, I did not build a ship yet. There is a turn or two left on Rax in the capital.

As for number of turns, I played 20... and that seemed short, but I didn't want to overextend my welcome either :)

I think we can do 20 for now right?? maybe a turn or 2 more if that makes a nice cut of turn....

Why indeed is Nadira on stagnant?? We can grow another population...
Warriors we can build 2 in 3 turns that is nice and quick for Fog busting
Or build 1 chariot in 2 turns...
Trireme is 5 turns tho... and we have none at the moment getting one for scouting Gandhi's land and beyond (via the northern tundra) would be very nice...

Uppsala can grow to size 2 while finishing that warrior, then start a worker to be whipped for 1 pop?? to finish it way faster than hand building it there...

BTW: We have not yet addopted slavery....

Edit: About barbs... I didnt spot any (animal) barbs near the city either I think ... the thing is as long as the barbs do not know where your city is... they cannot beeline for it either...

Whoa, Cyan #1 AND Stonehenge? That's quite a coup!

I concur that Cyan #2 is a high priority to seal off our neighborhood. The jungle gap between Nidaros and our two Cyan cities should be safe for a while. The AI avoid jungle cities until they run out of non-jungle space to settle.

My suggestions:


Build Nidaros -> galley > axe > axe > settler ?

Build Uppsala -> Warrior (until Pop 2) then switch to Worker

Research -> definitely Pottery > Priesthood (for Oracle?)

Workers -> Road horses, copper then road to Uppsala

I wouldnt yet build Axemen... get 4 or so Warriors out instead they make execelent (cheap) MP and Fog busters.

Couple of Chariots will also help against the barbs which are cheaper than axemen. I to think we need the settler sooner rather than later, but not without (atleast) 2 chariots or so to help it move protected.

Getting a galley out would be nice as well.

Edit: did you any of you folks check the progress page?? it is hillarious how our culture looks .... Now lets get to expanding and exploring...

Re: culture: Most experience SG players tend to shy away from an early religion gambit as they are usually war-mongers. We OTOH grab hindu and stonehedge. :lol: Look at the power graph and you won't find it hilarious anymore .... :p

The problem with Cyan #2 is the settling party needs to pass by the barb city at awlfully close proximity, so chariots escort is necessary. Chariots escort also means faster movement, since chariots can keep up with settler.

"Getting a galley out will be nice" ... uh-uh. Getting a trireme out will be better.

--

The powergraph doesnt look that bad... I think we are doing OK...

Offcourse Trireme > Galley, more so considering we are sending it into Gandhi land... Still got vanilla and C3C on the brain :scan:

mmmmmm religion gambit played by rookies aye?? Experienced players go a warmongering. Ok sounds good Greyfox but can you splain one ting senor, CFR used relgion for both SGOTM and look at the results. Look at our results for SGOTM03 and thnk religion would have helped us get better results. I remember the CFR team talking about taking a chance in SGOTM02 and it paid off for them big time.

So I don't think it's a matter of experience but play style. Religion for me isn't about accepting it, it's about the culture push for the founding city and respective buildings, temples, monasteries and cathedrals. Three monasteries add 30% science, so the hydra if pulled off, can make your capitol quite powerful and a landgrabbing culture push which I just love.

:p :p

Sorry about leaving the capital stagnated... that was a :smoke: on my part. I stagnated it to max hammers for Stonehedge, and then forgot to change it back on my last turn. :blush:

sorry team i have to request a skip-period even before i started playing.
i have a herniated vertebral disk and cannot sit in front of the computer at all. will be in the hospital monday. will report back after that.
sorry folks

pre-turn jitters? ;) No worries Healium, hope your back works out and you feel better soon.

Agree that walking a settler to cyan2 will require some sort of an escort, but would not a pair of fog busting axes camped on the barb city serve the same purpose?

Yes, a tireme will be far superior to a galley (unsure about hammer cost difference).

Religion wise, we now have some nice options since Ghandi has his own religion and we have ours since we can "force" folks into Ghandi's camp. This does require that one of our cities picks up his religion so that we can create missionaries for him and spread his religion. This (assuming a shrine) will increase Ghandi's economy as well. So we'll need to try to set up some "religion catching" cities along our border with G and *not* spread our religion to them until another does. Eventually we'll get lucky and can begin "helping" our "good buddy" Ghandi.
I'll be playing tonight.

So we'll need to try to set up some "religion catching" cities along our border with G and *not* spread our religion to them until another does. Eventually we'll get lucky and can begin "helping" our "good buddy" Ghandi.

That's genius, bobrath. Would roads to the border help, too? How do religions spread from AIs with which we are at war? I've seen it happen in the past but I thought religions spread to cities with which you have trade routes. That doesn't make sense if you're at war with the AI.

A Galley makes more sense than a Trireme if there's a chance to pop some huts with a scout on board.

IIRC religion spread can only be prevented by Theocracy (ie open borders have no effect on the automatic spread only on the missionary spread). Shrines increase the chance of the missionary-less spread. I'm not 100% certain how war affects this tho - might be a good thing to try in an SP game. Set up a map with two Religion happy civs (Izzy and ?) on one landmass and you on another (coastal separation) and declare war the moment you meet one of them (keeping peace with other). Then sit back and see if you get any religions from the war civ vs the other civ (but keep borders closed with both).

Do we have the tech for scouts? Regardless, since the hammer cost of triremes is equal to galleys (50 hammers each) and a Scout would cost 15 extra - I'd put forward the idea that the first ship out should be the more durable trireme while a follow-up scout + galley can go to pop huts and explore more friendly lands.

Of-course we have ... Ragnar start off with a settler and a scout. But no, a scout only make sense in caravel, not a galley in warlords. The AI loves to build triremes, so it becomes too risky to go exploring in galley (which gain little benefits, since chances are all huts are already popped on the same continent)

EDIT: Re religions spread: AFAIK, trade, open border, shrines, all encourage religion spread, not enable. I have a religion spread in an always war game once. But only once. So, one can assume that the prob of religion spread between two city is close to (but non-) zero. Having a trade route, open borders, or shrine helps increases this prob.

Ok, I'm not 100% happy with my turns, but I'm not disappointed either. Just kind of ... meh

Anyway, I allowed Nidaros to grow again and it proceeded to churn out:
Tireme, Chariot, Chariot, Axeman, Settler (finish next turn). No whip applied

Upsala wasn't a good whip canidate because workers would cost 2 or 3 pop points! So it finished off the warrior and has barracks with 12 of 75 hammers in (can whip for one pop at any time). Set to overflow into a worker. No whip applied here either.

I changed research from Masonry to Pottery since we weren't going to pop Upsala's borders for 13 turns nor have a worker nearby for even longer. Just now restarted research on it (no beakers lost) 3 turns left to finish Masonry. In the mean time we discovered Pottery and Archery (barb fear got the better of me).

We did revolt to Slavery during my turns.

Killed one barb warrior with a chariot and all military units are now fully healed. Our two cities are connected thanks to a road and the river. Worker can no continue the road to Upsala to allow military traffic OR begin roading to Cyan2 if so desired.

Our chariots are north and south of the barb city (size 3 now) and a woodsman axe has just arrived outside the border. Intent to keep an eye on the city and get some free upgrades. Our settler should have a clear path to whichever site is desired. Border pops on both cities helped in fog busting, really only need to camp a unit in the far north and our internal area should be fine.

We're currently running 70% research @ 0 gpt with 1 g in the treasury.


Hmm, what else. It appears as if we have no worries about Ghandi being smart enough to find the stars:
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/7569/civ4screenshot0003pm5.jpg
and this might be a small reason why:
http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/3204/civ4screenshot0004we9.jpg


The resources of the known world:
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/4767/civ4screenshot0006gu3.jpg
and the cultural borders:
http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/6711/civ4screenshot0008tm4.jpg

Guessing Ghandi has 4 cities and Khan has founded at least one to his west. I still think cyan2 is the next best choice, if only to seal