SGOTM 04 - Team VQ [Archive] - Civilization Fanatics' Forums

Cosmichail

Feb 25, 2007, 06:15 PM

I think we should chance it as there is another blue circle on that plains hill which could mean there are more resources north of it. I suspect too that it's a couple of plains hills in fog and perhaps beyond that coast. I am not too crazy about wrecking the plains forest though but prefer production and there will be plenty of commerce there still.

Here's a what if but what if there are more sea resources north of those hills. Perhaps moving scout in that direction to expose it more might help. Our site now isn't that bad but isn't the best either. It's food rich but lacking in any luxury resources or stone/marble. Let's take that chance and see first what's there and then decide although it will will take two turns (that's including the turn he can do right now) for the scout to check it out. I find moving a settler in the beginning can sometimes have profound benefits rather than just settling in place.

Also I am in favour of an early religion this time. If we work the lake we should be able to get Hinduism. The long term benefits of Hinduism especially if we grab something like Oracle will help throughout the game for money/culture. (getting oracle and then getting shrine). Having two religions is even better but I'd be happy with one.

I know that is a contradiction moving settler and try for religion but I think we can pull it off with the financial trait. Ragnar is an amazing civ and of course one might consider the Great lighthouse but it might not help unless we can be linked by sailing to other civs. The settings give us a clue too as to what we can expect. Fractal/medium sea level means lots of land so it is likely we are sharing this landmass. Lots of land means AI will do much better than last SGOTM as I find typically happens in SP games. One reason why religion is good is to keep borders expanding enough to gobble up land for ourselves until we need it or have enough coin to settle. Five cities and one will find themselves broke so culture spreading gives us room to go ergo two religions are even better.

My ideas and plan to be considered of course:

Build: first build of course should be work boat once we settle

Tech: Going for early religion is doable but there is a risk but the benefits long lasting. Once we do that we will need mining fairly soon but time it for the worker to build the necessary mines. AH/Agriculture will be needed too soon for food development although this isn't as paramount in the beginning because of happy which we sadly very much lack. Means capitol won't allow more than 5-6 happy. I imagine the whipmeister will definitely want to get BW soon for the whipping of course.

Possible order: Mysticism/Polytheism/mining/BW/AH Maybe we get lucky and pop some huts with tech but wouldn't hold my breath.

Long term: build extra work boat for scouting the landmass asap. Scouting is very important in this game as we need to know where everybody is to make informed decision.

Strong production capitol will get us some wonders worth having like the Oracle so once we get mining the proposed site by namliaM is worth considering. I also like the idea of moving up some to make room for a second coastal city. Ragnar strength is in coastal cities especially so the more the better. The question of course what is south of us maybe more land.

The two Dutchman are in agreement. Ok somebody call Ripley's believe or not....

GreyFox

Feb 25, 2007, 07:24 PM

I am still not convinced. You say you are "not crazy with wrecking the forested plain hills" yet you go on to say you prefer production. Contradictory. Re: strong production capitol city, I maintain 3 hills is good enough for a capitol. Ignore commerce in capitol when you are financial at your own peril. I have no counter against arguments like "what if" and "sometimes have profound benefits", perhaps except "pigs fly".

I am fine if people think it is worth the possible 2 turns lost, but based on the info I have, I wouldn't do it. (By the way the worst case is not if the 3 fog tiles are coast, the worst case is they are desert or tundra). And you can kiss Hinduism goodbye with the 2 turns lost.

The best argument against settling in site, which thus far I see no one brings up, is the ocean tiles. By moving 2N, we exchange those ocean tiles for something that chances are would be better than ocean tiles.

In summary, I am fine with moving 2N if most of the team members think so. But I advise against it.

--

bobrath

Feb 25, 2007, 08:29 PM

Couple words that resonated with me from the above discussions:

Financial leader

From my pov, we need to be the far and away tech leaders in this game. Why? To share that knowledge out asap to encourage Ghandi to start building spaceship parts. If we are the tech leaders, we will have an advantage in tech advantaged wars when we decide to slow down other civs. Yes, you need production to do that, but all the production in the world won't help muskets stop tanks.

My vote is to found in place - it gives us the jump on teching to an early religion and all the beneficial benefits from that. If there truly is a better site 2 north, then that still means there's a good site 3/4 moves north for our second city.

Cosmichail

Feb 25, 2007, 08:37 PM

I am still not convinced. You say you are "not crazy with wrecking the forested plain hills" yet you go on to say you prefer production. Contradictory. Re: strong production capitol city, I maintain 3 hills is good enough for a capitol.

Contradictory until we have mining. I don't think 3 hills is enough as we are in for a typical monarch type warlords game where AI will have lots of room to grow. If we could look and decide first that indeed it would be better.

Right now all I can see that we gain a hammer by doing not worth it. Losing two turns wouldn't affect Hinduism once we get a net in place/and or work lake. I do think there are more plains hills up there and that's where we get the extra production. Should there be two then even better which would give us 5 hills, three of them plains. Enough food to work them all but limited by happy. (PS plains hill yield 4 hammers each and grass 1 food 3 hammers)

Hypothetical move: 12 hammers plains and 6 hammers grass after mining possible but need more intel
settle in place : 10 hammers after mining

The first scenario will pump out units/wonders a lot faster and our second city can certainly serve as a commerce site.

I have no counter against arguments like "what if" and "sometimes have profound benefits", perhaps except "pigs fly".

I find your lack of faith disturbing. Pigs do fly by the way. I moved my settler in a SP and found a lot more resources elsewhere but lost some 2 turns. Best move I ever made as I wasn't happy with the original site. I don't like this site all that much other than food. I'd rather loose 2 turns and see what else we could get rather than just settle right away and find out we could have done better. On the other hand the pessimist argument of desert/tundra is certainly worth consideration.

If we could tell where we are on the map (since the resources don't help us with that if I recall that doens't work anymore) we could also get a feel where the tundra is to know our position. If we are in high north than it could be tundra. If we are in south then not likely tundra there so now a possibililty of desert.

Take a chance or just settle in place. That is the question. I will go with team consensus as usual but like the idea of a strong production capitol.

I doubt that the team will go with religion more likely go for BW asap or sailing so I am not counting all that much on Hinduism. I just find personally on maps with lots of land AI will out settle you fast and with religion you can landgrab without having to settle.

So settle in place as that is the safe thing to do. Move the settler and take a chance maybe loose maybe win. Just like gambling 50/50 odds. I like gambling and seeing that we are up against teams that are quite strong I say we take a chance on religon and moving.

I just find when namliaM has something in his gut he usually gets it right on. The last two SGOTM's prove that. I am one that trusts his instincts most of the time and feel it's one of those times. Too bad the scout is sitting so far south and I don't like what I see south seeing that mountain there.

namliaM

Feb 26, 2007, 12:13 AM

I would like to remind folks that this map is a "Gyathar special" thus normal things tend to be not so normal.

Even on a gyathar special map I dont think one will find Tundra and dessert this close to the jungle... I am 99.9% sure of the tiles I gave earlier, them 4 tiles are 2 Plains hills, a Plains and a grassland. The only unsure part is the 3 new tiles beyond those... Theoretical they could be dessert (on a gyathar special not in a regular game IMHO) on the other hand they could all 3 contain Gems or Gold. We just dont know...

Just because I am called the whip meister... I had a look at the whip... and moreso since Bob noted it is a scary site for whipping, lets look at the total picture....
One thing I know is that Plains hills suck at Food=>Hammer conversion, Grass hills are MUCHO better at 1:3, Plains hills suck at 1:2. Plains are even worse at 1:1

Both sites have:
CC +2f/2h
Clams +3f (netted + Lighthouse)
Corn +4f (Farm + Irrigation)
Pigs +4f
Lake +1f (Lighthouse)
2+3+4+4+1 = +14food/turn
The original site has 2 plains hills and a grass hill = -5 food/11 hammers.
The north site has 2 additional Plains hills and a plains = -5/+9.

Now this is the food=>Hammer conversion for the whip
- --Food Bar--- Granary---1 pop--- + FPT ---2 pop--- + FPT ---3 pop--- + FPT
- - - -- -20 - - - - 10---
01 - - - -23 - - - - 12---
02 - - - -26 - - - - 13--- 3,46 --- 0,80
03 - - - -29 - - - - 15--- 3,00 --- 0,87
04 - - - -32 - - - - 16--- 2,81 --- 1,00 --- 2,90 --- 1,87
05 - - - -35 - - - - 18--- 2,50 --- 1,07 --- 2,65 --- 2,07
06 - - - -38 - - - - 19--- 2,37 --- 1,20 --- 2,43 --- 2,27 --- 2,55 --- 3,27
07 - - - -41 - - - - 21--- 2,14 --- 1,27 --- 2,25 --- 2,47 --- 2,33 --- 3,53
08 - - - -44 - - - - 22--- 2,05 --- 1,40 --- 2,09 --- 2,67 --- 2,18 --- 3,87
09 - - - -47 - - - - 24--- 1,88 --- 1,47 --- 1,96 --- 2,87 --- 2,01 --- 4,13
10 - - - -50 - - - - 25--- 1,80 --- 1,60 --- 1,84 --- 3,07 --- 1,90 --- 4,47
11 - - - -53 - - - - 27--- 1,67 --- 1,67 --- 1,73 --- 3,27 --- 1,78 --- 4,73
12 - - - -56 - - - - 28--- 1,61 --- 1,80 --- 1,64 --- 3,47 --- 1,69 --- 5,07
13 - - - -59 - - - - 30--- 1,50 --- 1,87 --- 1,55 --- 3,67 --- 1,59 --- 5,33
14 - - - -62 - - - - 31--- 1,45 --- 2,00 --- 1,48 --- 3,87 --- 1,52 --- 5,67
15 - - - -65 - - - - 33--- 1,36 --- 2,07 --- 1,41 --- 4,07 --- 1,44 --- 5,93
All of the above is assuming a granary is in place, if not... double the food requirement and half the yield.

Meaning at size 6 whipping for 2 pop you convert at a rate of 1:2.4 which is more favorable than working a plains hill. The only thing you need to make sure of is you have enough food to regrow your city, at size 6 whip 2 end up at size 4 needing 16 + 18 = 34 food to regrow to 6 inside of 15 turns. Or +2.26 food per turn.
The latest point where whipping is (slightly) more favorable than whipping is size 8 where you need 19+21 = 40 food to regrow inside of 15 turns or +2.67fpt.

All this means is that the original site at size 7 and over is +9f/11 hammers, which is way overdoing the food department any size over 7 we add a 2 food tile thus +food stays the same. Which in turn means we can sustain specialists while keeping whipping and producing.
The north site at size 10 we work all the hills and plains + all the food tiles at +4 food.
So on the whipping department there is not a problem at the north site making the whipping discussion mute as we can whip for 2 pop every 15 turns on either site.

So what we are left with is the higher commerce for the Original site vs the higher production of the North site. The north site will sustain (atleast) 4 cottages on the grasslands + plains. Add a potential 3 for the 3 unknown tiles = 7.
The original site has room for 7 cottages.
??? Same # of cottages and more hills ???
Yes, cause we potentially are trading 3 water tiles (2 ocean, 1 coast) for 3 land tiles.

All in all I am still in favour of moving, now more so than ever before. I am allmost sure we can find another GP farm than our capitol, but not so sure we can find another (big) production city.
HOWEVER there is one more thing to consider....
EARLY production + food, becuase all this is longer term.
Early on we will not have the benifit of the 1/2 grass forrest hill and the 0/3 plains hill, thereby delaying the workboat and worker somewhat (adding to the early 1 turn delay). I will give the ol' excel sheet a run for its money to see what this boils down to.

healium

Feb 26, 2007, 12:35 AM

ok first to clear up the time zone and playtime: GMT +1, vienna by the way. i can be found in front of the computer most of the day, but rarly between 8am and 2pm, thats the time i am sleeping. any day of the week.

i have absolutely no experience with delaying the first city more than one turn. i usually settle in place or move once. it up to you to judge how much we will suffer from the delay in the long run. namliaM what does your exel sheet say about our chances for an early religion? to me the option of having it is still very attractive. but having real production power in the capital is also something i really like. so count my vote as undecided. if the calculating pros think its a good idea to move and there is even a gut feeling envolved i am fine with scouting out the north.

GreyFox

Feb 26, 2007, 01:31 AM

Sleeping from 8am to 2pm???? :crazyeye: Who are you in RL? Bruce Wayne??? :lol:

My point about those 3 tiles being possibly desert or tundra is: we should simply discard all those conjecture about what tiles they are. They are simply unknown, period. Don't bring in arguments like they may contain iron/silk/gems, and I won't bring in counter-arguments like they may be desert or black-holes (which are newly Gyaathar-created tiles that sucks our settler once he move to 2N, there by creating a record-shattering fastest conquest lost at turn 4000BC). :lol:

Who said anything about GP-Farm in our capitol? That is a no-no. Always.

I am all for a productive capitol. But never at the expense of commerce when we are also financial. You can be very productive, but if I can reach Literature 10 turns earlier than you can, who do you think would build the Great Library? The key is balance. Don't go productive for the sake of being productive. It's useless without commerce.

Having said all that, I agree that the 2N site isn't all that commerce-starved. It still has sufficient coastal tiles to make it an early commerce-rich site.

So don't have to convince me that 2N is a better site. I wouldn't go there, but I would give it to you that it is a viable move.

healium

Feb 26, 2007, 02:13 AM

Sleeping from 8am to 2pm???? :crazyeye: Who are you in RL? Bruce Wayne??? :lol:
well, lets just say that working in an art academy has unconventional benefits! :lol: actually today i am breaking the rule and slept at night.

i see a point in the post of grey fox concerning the commerce. i am more undecided than ever about the "move or settle" issue, but i have one thing to remark: if we decide to move and take a risk lets move the settler and not the scout to the 2N position and maybe only lose one turn.

bobrath

Feb 26, 2007, 08:29 AM

I'm willing to accept settling 2N of current, I still think the 2 turn loss is a definite negative and as a Financial civ, moving our capital to a lesser economic site feels somehow wrong.

Hold up.... Staring at the starting screen shot, I had a minor brain pop. Current site has 5 coastal sites while 2N has the potential for 7 coastal site (depends on if that east jutting land is a 1 or more tile point). So we do lose the cottage sites with a move, but have potential better water based finance. Remember tho that once we learn how to build cottages, we'll want to have a city ready in the south to take advantage and get ours growing asap.

So Vikings-On-A-Lake it is. Hydra anyone? :p

-6gmt btw (US Central - but with the upcoming daylight savings time change... well the states are screwy)

healium

Feb 26, 2007, 09:58 AM

if we settle on the 2N (if it turns out nice) it should be just one turn we loose, right?

bobrath

Feb 26, 2007, 10:07 AM

1 to walk there and then settle on turn 2 which means it "comes on line" on 3rd turn.

Cosmichail

Feb 26, 2007, 01:53 PM

I like the idea of hydra but I don't think we can accomplish it by moving 2N. We definitely should get a religion this time around as even if we don't accept it, we can use it for many other things such as temples/monasteries and priests for GPriest.

Again Buddhism is tough to get on Monarch warlords as even on Prince I have seen AI get it 12 turns just when I am in polytheism about 2-3 turns. We have to remember that this will play much differently than last SGOTM as the AI will likely have room to grow. 7 civs on a standard map fractal medium sea level is going to be problematic. They will spawn like aliens. Fortunately Gandhi is one of them but he is generally the least liked for some reason. Seems every game I ever played lots of civs constantly ask to go to war/discontinue deals with Gandhi.

I becoming torn now about moving 2N for various reasons. The two SG pro's aren't exactly thrilled about it but if there are coastal tiles beyond those hills then they won't be utilized and leaves less space for a second coastal city. From what I can see south isn't that good with a mountain there and likely more further south. I am willing to take a chance on moving 2N as two prime coastal cities are much better than one. It's just loosing 2 turns at the beginning hurts in a number of ways especially in getting Buddhism. The hydra does wonders for landgrabbing but the second city won't benefit so I would prefer to see the second city have a religion too just for culture and shrine.

Bottom line:
Disadvantage
Hydra not possible with moving 2N loose too many turns. (unless we are really lucky and all remaining AI's don't have the starting techs)
Loosing 2 turns is loss of beakers/commerce and I am sure namliaM is coming up with excel sheet soon to prove it's all worth it.

Advantages
Moving 2N allows more space for second coastal city which is beneficial being Ragnar.
Moving 2N will give capitol extra production and with bureaucracy that will be even better.

Being that we are democratic we should just put forward a vote and leave it at that:
So far:
Healium - undecided
Bobrath - yay or nay?
Greyfox - yay or nay and I suspect nay
Maquis - yay or nay
namliaM - yay
Scowler - ?
Cosmic - yay

We don't have the consensus on moving so we should make sure that the team is in agreement or at least 4 players agree to move. If that doesn't happen I'd say we stay put.

namliaM

Feb 26, 2007, 01:56 PM

First the save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/VQ_SG004_BC2800_01.CivWarlordsSave)

Turn 1, 3970 BC: Nidaros has been founded.

Turn 12, 3640 BC: You have discovered Mysticism!
Turn 12, 3640 BC: Buddhism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 18, 3460 BC: The villagers give you gold! You have received 44 gold!

Turn 20, 3400 BC: Barbarian's Wolf (1.00) vs VQ's Scout (2.90)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: Combat Odds: 0.0%
Turn 20, 3400 BC: (Animal Combat: +20%)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: (Feature: +20%)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: (Class Animal Combat: +100%)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 32 (68/100HP)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: VQ's Scout is hit for 12 (88/100HP)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 32 (36/100HP)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 32 (4/100HP)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 32 (0/100HP)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: VQ's Scout has defeated Barbarian's Wolf!

Turn 25, 3250 BC: Hinduism has been founded in Nidaros!
Turn 25, 3250 BC: You have discovered Polytheism!

Turn 26, 3220 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 26, 3220 BC: VQ converts to Hinduism!
Turn 26, 3220 BC: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.

Turn 33, 3010 BC: The villagers have given you the secrets of a new Technology!
Turn 33, 3010 BC: You have discovered Sailing!
Turn 33, 3010 BC: You have discovered Mining!
Turn 33, 3010 BC: You have trained a Worker in Nidaros. Work has now begun on Stonehenge.

Turn 35, 2950 BC: Barbarian's Wolf (1.00) vs VQ's Scout (2.90)
Turn 35, 2950 BC: Combat Odds: 0.0%
Turn 35, 2950 BC: (Animal Combat: +20%)
Turn 35, 2950 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 35, 2950 BC: (Feature: +20%)
Turn 35, 2950 BC: (Class Animal Combat: +100%)
Turn 35, 2950 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 32 (68/100HP)
Turn 35, 2950 BC: VQ's Scout is hit for 12 (88/100HP)
Turn 35, 2950 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 32 (36/100HP)
Turn 35, 2950 BC: VQ's Scout is hit for 12 (76/100HP)
Turn 35, 2950 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 32 (4/100HP)
Turn 35, 2950 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 32 (0/100HP)
Turn 35, 2950 BC: VQ's Scout has defeated Barbarian's Wolf!

Turn 36, 2920 BC: Genghis Khan adopts Slavery!

Turn 39, 2830 BC: Nidaros will grow to size 3 on the next turn
Turn 39, 2830 BC: Nidaros's cultural boundary is about to expand.
After just 5 turns I meet our friend Gandhi, who is just some 8 or 9 tiles away
http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/6990/sgotm4scoutinghut1ag4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
I spot the Goody hut and offcourse pick that up! Netting us some gold, the goody hut across the water I am betting is blocked from us as the water is likely so seperate us from Gandhi. So I turn the Scout South...
Just after switching from Myst to Poly the familiar ring of the founding of a religion comes up *dag nabit* I think... but bless us it is buddism.
http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/1893/sgotm4scoutinghut2ih7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
After staring down and defeating a Panther and a lion (on seperate turns) our scout runs across yet another Tribal village, this time yielding a little more gold.
Next I had a dicision, faster worker with nothing to do or slow down the worker and get Poly faster?? *hmz* not a hard choice there... Work the LAKE!

Our now Woodsman 1 Scout finds some borders after killing a pack of wolves (in a forrest) only to find yet more animals. The tile south east of those lions have yet more Lions, so the scout runs for cover on the other side of Khaaaaaaaaaaan culture, where he finds another goody hut....
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/5665/sgotm4scoutingkhaaaaaaaub7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
This hut gives us sailing while we are one turn away from mining. My thinking on mining was to double up on Masonry, but I deside we need AH more right now, so that is up next...
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/982/sgotm4scoutinghut3qf7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
20:20 looking back, maybe I should have researched AH before Mining. Food is power in the early game... But the research of mining would complete together with the worker, giving him something to do. Where AH or Agriculture would be late, so I selected Mining....

This is what we know of the world so far...
http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/6193/sgotm4overview1mc6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/5358/sgotm4overview2hw5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

For the folks out there paying attention, the lake in the earlier pictures was south of Nidaros. This is what Nidaros' BFC looks like...
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/7559/sgotm4nidarosus5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Me? I like our capitol very much, but I dont know if I like what happened. If the capitol had stayed where it was, the pigs could have gone to the Gold/Fish site which as it is now... is low on food :(

FYI, I put one turn into Stonehedge to grow to size 2 after the workboat....

Edit: I crossposted with Cosmic, I thought we had a consesus (sort of) 2 for and 2 "not opposed" which is why I went ahead and played... sorry if I moved to fast :blush:

Cosmichail

Feb 26, 2007, 02:14 PM

Well what's done is done and well played namliaM. Nice getting sailing and having Gandhi so nearby is going to be a pain or a help whichever way you look at it. Having the mongols south I don't like being creative and we'd better get a second city out soon and try to contain him from taking any of those precious lands.

Our capitol indeed will be a production powerhouse and we will have enough commerce. I think we will need those berserkers very soon. Khaaaaaaaaaaan we come for you......

EDIT: I'd rather you move fast then wait another few days. 2nd EDIT: DUH I see it's Genghis we'd better get settlers out soon as he will be a spawn monster being imperialistic.

Maquis

Feb 26, 2007, 06:34 PM

I agree, what's done is done. I do think that we're off to a decent start. We all knew Gandhi would be close by...

So, we do have a confirmed roster?

namliaM -- Started!
Greyfox -- Up!
Maquis -- On deck
Bobrath
Healium
Scowler

Or do we want to swap Bobrath and Healium? Makes no difference to me.

As for a plan, I do believe we should push our expansion south, to block off GK... and eventually take him out?

bobrath

Feb 26, 2007, 06:42 PM

I think we still need to scout some more before we make solid war plans. Yes, we do need to choke off Khan's expansion into our territory. Course if we have a huge playground to the north, then it becomes less urgent.

GreyFox

Feb 26, 2007, 10:49 PM

I got the save ... congrats on founding Hindu, and the capitol turns out fine, with grasslands in the top-right corner of the BFC for some cottages, making it a very well-balanced capitol indeed.

The build order leaves a lot to be desired, however, since if the decision was to chase after the Dancing Goddess, a worker shouldn't be built so early with nothing to do, delaying the growth substantially. I would have gone with another scout after the workboat, then the worker.

--

Discussion on what I intend to do:

Research: AH > BW > Argi > Writing or IW or Archery (depending on barbs and copper appearance)

Build: Warrior (too much hammer invested, I will let it complete) > Scout > Warrior > Settler >

I will wait one-and-a-half day before playing (I would drop to 20~30 turns, or stopping when I think there is a decision to be made via team consensus).

==

namliaM

Feb 26, 2007, 10:58 PM

There is some 5 or 6 tiles of jungle down there which means a couple of things
1) Hell for expanding south
2) Barb heaven
3) Nice defencive bonus

I know we want the whip, but dont we want to go Masonry => Mono?

A second scout is that not a bit late now, soon barbs will start comming which is why I wanted the warrior? I hadnt really considered building a second scout, tho I think Greyfox you are right.... it would have opened up the north a bit...

GreyFox

Feb 26, 2007, 11:29 PM

I wanted to go for BW is not for whipping ... (I was never a great fan of whip, I do whip, but not as much as some players do) ... it is to reveal copper for our settler. IMHO, we should never whip our capitol, except for really urgent build, or when we accidentally grow the capitol past the happy limit.

Explain to me why we want to go Monotheism? For OR? Or for Judaism?

There are 3 valid opening moves in Civ4 teching: the learning path which is the top branch of the tree, going for early writing and literature; the warmonger path which is the bottom branch of the tree, going for BW and IW, and even early MC; and finally the hydra path in the middle of the tree, going for religions grab. Each are perfectly valid moves, depending on situation. The problem with the middle path is you fall behind in tech and isn't strong military wise that you find yourself overwhelmed with superior troops in greater quantity. This makes the hydra path more suitable in lower-difficulty, or for an isolated start (eg archipelago).

--

Cosmichail

Feb 27, 2007, 12:32 AM

A quote from a civ player but don't recall his handle. Land = power....

I see an awful lot of land and probably a lot more on the other side of Gandhi and north of us although I suspect that the northern part may be only a few tiles from the coast. The amount of land that will be available to the AI is going to make them large and difficult to deal with. (I know sound like a broken record but when they have room to grow it proves to be a challenge)

I am saying that if anything we need to settle fast although I would have liked to build a wonder or two but it doesn't seem doable with Genghis as our neighbour. So I am all for getting a settler after scout/warrior. Of course should BW net us copper in our capitol and we see that GK has none I would say for an early axe rush. (just a consideration since getting settlers out is important too)

Also I was for getting Judaism for the culture and happy which we are going to desperately need with being at war during the entire game however we need to know where the copper/horses are.

I am in agreement with the intended path as outlined by Greyfox. I am sure Greyfox you know appr. when barb axes will start showing up so we need to make sure we either have chariots, archers, or axemen by then.

As to the hydra we missed that boat already (well Buddhism in 12 turns says it) so if we want another religion it will have to be a later one considering the circumstances of our map. By the time we get our first settler out Genghis will have two or three settled already. This is going to be a real challenge having Gandhi 8 tiles away and Genghis spawning like crazy. I hope the SG pro's can make this work as I have my concerns as how well we will do. If there is room to grow north then we should try to cut off any AI's from taking any land. We seem to be also on the same landmass as Gandhi so we need protect ourselves from him too and barbs.

Bottom line:

Military path is needed to contain Genghis/barbs and keep Gandhi at bay since he spawns too and techs fast.
A secondary tech path == writing for libs and scientists...
Pottery shouldn't be too far off for some cottages if we can contain the barbs

Also if it's ok I would like to be included in the roster Maquis. Right now I have no idea where I stand turnwise. It is likely I don't get to play this week and weekend is out so put me at the bottom so that I can play early next week.

We need a roster and turns that each player is playing. 20 turns sounds good to me for the first round and thereafter down to 10 or 15.

namliaM

Feb 27, 2007, 05:14 AM

I was indeed thinking Judaism AND to get it into the capitol, why? 2 religions are better than one. Or... 2 shrines... I allways try to stack religions cause off Wall Street, there is only 1. So 2 shrines in 1 city = mucho money = good place for WS.
Given that it is nearly impossible to get a second religion into the capitol once we have city #2...
Maybe we can stack 2 other religions someplace...

Khaaan is allways a pain and needs to be delt with. Tho I dont know given the nature of the game if it is wise to cripple him, we want the AI to run away from us while we limp behind someplace... Maybe we should pull an All gore?? Limit our cities to like 4 or 5, make sure we "create some space" here and there for Gandhi...

We dont need the happy that much, WW only comes when you fight and Gandhi is not one to send over a huge stack remember SGOTM2 where we didnt get any WW from beeing at war either.

I suspect there is not to much land to our immediate north either would be looking more like continents if there was. I also think there is the water blocking Gandhi from getting to us (in the north), so if he is going to get us it is going to have to be thru the long walk south. But I agree we need some defense in place other than Warriors.

How about throwing in Priesthood (IIRC) for the Oracle to pick up MC and/or some GP points for the shrine.

GreyFox

Feb 27, 2007, 06:15 AM

I guess that is your intention when suggesting Masonry + Mono, but I really don't think we will survive Khan if we go that route. We are not isolated enough to grab multi-headed hydra. The gold benefits is long term wise but we have to survive in the short term first.

I am still inclined to my outlined tech path.

Research: AH > BW > Argi > Writing or IW or Archery (depending on barbs and copper appearance)

Build: Warrior (too much hammer invested, I will let it complete) > Scout (worth it?) > Warrior > Settler

Countdown to the time I start playing: 24hrs

namliaM should post an updated roster as you are voted the leader :D

namliaM

Feb 27, 2007, 06:50 AM

Roster
namliaM -- +1 gmt (Actually +2 atm due to DST)
Greyfox -- +8 gmt
Maquis -- -7 gmt
Bobrath -- -5 gmt (I think please clarify)
Healium -- ?gmt
Scowler -- gmt
Frankcor-- -5 gmt
Cosmichail -- -5gmt (I think)

I currently have no clue what the timeline is on BW... in conjunction with the settler... but how about this?

Warrior (MP) > Warrior > Warrior (for some fog busting and some scouting) > Lighthouse > Settler (whipped for 2 or 3 pop)

I dont know about Agriculture, we dont really need the corn online yet... we have plenty of food as it is (for now). Can we skip Agri and go for Wheel => Pottery instead?
Allowing us to build that granary and start some cottages in city #2.

Are we still rooting for the Oracle? If so we need to plan that in someplace too.

bobrath

Feb 27, 2007, 08:10 AM

Again, I'm on Central Standard Time which right now is -6 gmt, however the States will be switching to daylight savings time in a few weeks and that will move me to -5gmt.

My initial Hyrda comment would only have applied if were sufficiently isolated to not have to worry about teching into a war right away. Genghis as a neighbor makes that tough. SO:

I see two paths here for our long term strat:
1) "Please Don't Hurt Me" - in which we go tech crazy and get into a defensible position that allows us to hold off attacks but not go crazy aggresive. We give out techs like its Christmas and hope that Ghandi launches - We try to affect the world via spies and perhaps controlling the UN.
2) "Did I do that?" - build up a nice core set of cities in our current starting position. Ones that would be perfect for building spaceship parts (space elevator would be ultimate). We also build up a second core of cities that is decently removed from the first. We'll need to have good military power to do this since we'll be carving out a new empire AND maintaining it across a span. At a relatively key point, we abandon the first core in such a way that Ghandi is able to roll those cities up with no cares and we sit back to watch the launch - applying the hammer to anyone that looks wrong at Ghandi.

Assuming we can count on Ghandi to take a city from us (big assumption imo), then the second option is much more likely to induce the loss we want. However, its going to take some pretty hefty planning and playing to make sure we time it right AND can afford to do it.

So shrining and wall streeting up our capital to make great financial strides... will help the early part of the later strategy since it could cover the costs of running a larger empire. We've got a financial trait - use it!

Lastly, we're freakin vikings! Where is our exploratory ship in the above two builds? Knowing the size and shape of our world will be key to game planning and ships will be able to do that faster and safer then land units (don't forget our UB).

namliaM

Feb 27, 2007, 08:53 AM

For beeing vikings we would want the Trading post up to ensure our 3rd move ... Or??

To count on Gandhi to have units to spare to take cities from us that are perfect for building parts... well... I think that is indeed a big assumption + we had better do it EARLY => No need for lots of money.
AI will rebuild a lot of infrastructure prior to building SS parts in captured teritory.

How about 3:
We tech like crazy and war every now and again razing cities opening spaces for Gandhi to plop down new cities.
The down side of this is that the ideal place for Gandhi to expand into is OUR space which would be just east of his capitol. However we need that for our expansion.
Thus falling back into 2, counting on Gandhi to capture those cities as we cannot raze our own cities....
Also we will have to deal with the (big?) WW of losing cities in a war...

Or 1b Please dont hurt anyone, except ...
Once we hit industrialism (or somesort of tech there abouts) we go after every civ. Not to destroy them but pillage/raze/capture everything that looks like it can produce a SS part inside of 10 turns. But in that same process do not touch anything that looks like it is pumping out science.
Leaving the tech beast(s) in one peace, but killing production... That way Gandhi cannot help but win I think/hope...

healium

Feb 27, 2007, 09:27 AM

GMT +1

just a couple of ideas:

one of the keys to a good placement should be to keep up the worldwide techspeed and have as many civs as possible trade with ghandi. kind of an addition to keep in mind for the "Please Don't Hurt Me" strategy.

maybe we can try to have two wars with the Genghis. in the first we cripple him bad so he is not match for the second war. just before we start war II we give him lots of tech that he will than hopefully give to ghandi once they have the mutual thing against us.

what is the fastest launch date possible in monarch?(UN in 1310 anyone?) and how is it done? we should try to tech into that direction and than do some sort of tech/infrastructure transfer to ghandi.

the only way to have ghandi take cities from us should be him capturing them right? or can we gift cities without signing peace?

just a few questions because this is my first SGOTM:
i installed the latest HOF Mod what should i/do i have to enable in the options?
am i allowed to download the save and have look at it if i don´t move anything?
to what size would u like me to resize the screenshots?

GreyFox

Feb 27, 2007, 09:33 AM

You can't trade anything during war, except when negotiating peace treaty. For this case, we can't even bring up the diplo screen with Gandhi in a permanent war state.

As I'd mention much much earlier, the only way to transfer tech to Gandhi is to have him capture a city with Internet built. But that's much much later.

bobrath

Feb 27, 2007, 09:56 AM

To avoid WW from losing cities... gift them to another civ that's at war with Ghandi as well, then attack them to wipe out defenders and *hope* Ghandi moves in?

I do agree that we have to be somewhat the bully in this game. Anything that looks remotely frightening or threatening to Ghandi has to be smashed (so we'll need to be exploring and scouting the entire game). Until we know what Ghandi has available to him for his own expansion, some of this discussion will be moot. If Baldy has a huge island to himself then we're golden. *if* on the other hand he has a tiny spec then we're going to have to do some clearing/creative city gifting.

BTW, is city raizing turned on or off for this game?

namliaM

Feb 27, 2007, 11:45 AM

Roster
namliaM -- +1 gmt (Actually +2 atm due to DST)
Greyfox -- +8 gmt
Maquis -- -7 gmt
Bobrath -- -5 gmt
Healium -- +1 gmt
Scowler -- gmt
Frankcor-- -5 gmt
Cosmichail -- -5gmt (I think)

@Healium
If you load the save either by double clicking it or using the game menu the HoF mod will automaticaly be loaded. So if you dont want to play your SP game with it, you dont have to do anything but for maybe enable an option here or there.
Once loaded you will find a few extra options available to you in the options screen.
I suggest you make sure to check:
- Exotic Foreign Advisor
- CIV4LERTS
They are of great help... IMHO

You are allowed to download the save and look at things. The general rule is: Look but dont touch.
You are allowed to change things IF they can be undone, like changing the worked tiles inside a city. As they can allways be rearranged.
But you are not allowed to do anything that cannot be undone like arrange a peace treaty.
If in doubt, look but dont touch.

Screenshots as a general rule I believe are "forum size" i.e. 800x600 IIRC is the bigest screen that will fit inside the frame(s) of the forum on your average 1200x1000 (IIRC) screen.

@Bob
There are no special options clicked other than "no diplo victory" so we can do anything we want to anyone anyway (except kill Gandhi)

** Me off play SP to kill Gandhi **

Cosmichail

Feb 27, 2007, 12:14 PM

-5 gmt

The best place I find for uploading pictures is photobucket where the picture is downsized to 800X600 automatically. Once it's uploaded it will provide a link to paste into your report.

@bobrath - city razing is on as the first stated that all other settings are default but better to check that in game.

As to Gandhi taking our cities we'll we've seen how effective Monty was at that. I have my doubts about that unless it's on his doorstep. I am sure if we keep the wolves from Gandhi's doorstep he will do fine unless there are other civs on the other side of him. Fractal can be several large landmasses so there may be another continent out there.

Again my concern is if we can keep up with the AI having lots of room to spawn unlike our last Sgotm where they had no room and we could tech very fast especially having the TGL. I think we should consider that this game will play a lot differently than the last in teching/warring.

@Healium - we have to hope that Genghis has a good relationship with Gandhi if we give him techs.

As to getting a ship out there after trading post I concur.

The area west of us, we are going to need badly for happy since we don't have any in capitol. We need to get what we want fast and again watch out for Genghis he spawn cities very fast.

At this point talking about gifting cities to Gandhi is academic until we get our empire afloat. We should go a military route as Genghis can be unpredictable and attack at the worst time. I would even say if we have copper we just take him out completely especially if he's lacking it.

From what I can see Gandhi has gems in his capitol so he will tech fine on his own probably better than us. We need to strategize on a turn by turn basis rather than try to plan so far ahead. The game is way too volatile to make any long, long term plans until we get our empire up and running. Our capitol will spit out units very fast and building any wonders at this point may not be a good idea with an imperialistic civ south of us. The AI may even settle right away on OUR spot just to get happy resources etc. So don't be surprised when our settler is ready that spot is gone. (I have seen AI travel very far just to get happy/health resources and Genghis can build settlers very fast)

Fortunately that imperialistic trait becomes kind of useless after he's finished settling except for the GG bonus.

namliaM

Feb 27, 2007, 12:38 PM

@bobrath - city razing is on as the first stated that all other settings are default but better to check that in game.
Which is what I did before posting the same ...

Gandhi has both Gems and Gold both of which he can mine right off (I spotted a worker mining the northern gem allready when our scout was there).

So Yes.... Maybe Gandhi can tech just fine on his own and all we need to do is make sure no one goes space (except gandhi) bet lets see what the game brings.

I do slightly disagree with you cosmic. I think we need a firm plan atleast for now to start. As simple as:
1) Do we kill each AI (except gandhi)
2) Do we keep every AI and cripple them later (near the end)
Makes for a totaly different stratagy...

Cosmichail

Feb 27, 2007, 01:12 PM

1) Do we kill each AI (except gandhi)
2) Do we keep every AI and cripple them later (near the end)
Makes for a totaly different stratagy...

How does that change strategy please clarify. Yes a big picture approach is good but the best of plans are often changed by unforeseen circumstances.

I think the questions should be this:

Can we keep up enough with AI to even cripple them. Monarch warlords and lots of land means AI will grow very, very fast. Just look at Nidaros 2 pop and Karakorum at 6 already.

I don't think with this type of map you can just build an empire and let AI do their thing. NOT a good idea. We need to act fast and cripple Genghis as fast as we can before he becomes too big for us to handle and we are facing longbows. Expansion is a problem at this stage too as once you get to 5 cities that's it you start to feel the pinch. Even with Ragnar's financial trait it becomes difficult to expand fast beyond 5 cites until some cottages start to mature and COL is available for courthouses or markets for increased revenue. Another thing too is the trade routes which again we won't have much revenue from until we meet other civs who are on the same landmass and we can broker deals with.

So again how does the strategy at this point differ?
Build order - or tech order

We really can't make an informed decision until we know more about our surroundings so I think initial strategy should be this:

Teching as outlined by Greyfox (totally agree)
Build trading post and ship to explore and find us some more AI's

The barbs too with a lot of fog out there will also become a problem soon so we need to plan for that as well and as we know warriors don't cut as barbs axes are never that far away.

We need archers/ or chariots/ or axes soon. By knowing where the horses/copper is we will need to get settled whereever it is and if we are lucky and it's in the capitol even better.

That's the immediate plan

Long term: take down Genghis asap.

Don't leave him to spawn or get big enough to cause major grief. It would be a big mistake to leave him imo and we are Ragnar (check his history) we don't sit idly by and watch another civ take all our lands. Forget that. Let Genghis spawn at first it means he is using hammers for settlers in the mean time if our capitol should have copper then we should strike fast especially if he grabs something we want.

Also what stops Gandhi from just sailing across those waters and settling near us. Stupid AI will settle even during war right on your borders.

One thing we have advantage right now is production as the AI tends to even cottage grass hills so production tends to be light with them. That too can be Gandhi's achilles heal since he tends to do that as well so he tends to have his cities lightly defended. We need to assess what is on the other side of him. Maybe Gyathaar has a keen sense of humour (being Viking and all) and put another aggressive civ on the other side of Gandhi. Now that would make for interesting gameplay. If it's Alexander even more fun with the Berserkers.

So again how far ahead can you plan when we don't know much yet. We need intel then make long term plans. If another civ is on the other side of Gandhi our long term strategy completely changes especially if it's an aggressive AI. IF is a big word and if my aunt had nuts she'd be my uncle or as Greyfox said Pigs fly. So INTEL is needed to make informed decisions.

namliaM

Feb 27, 2007, 01:22 PM

I cannot say much to that. But... agree...

1 vs 2 = 1 we make sure Gandhi is left alone to tech and build as he sees fit.
Slower teching but guerantee we lose to spaceship of Gandhi

2 Faster teching but a lot harder on the end where we need to control the other AI not to launch before Gandhi does....

bobrath

Feb 27, 2007, 01:31 PM

Feels good to me Cosmic - I agree with the tech path as stated and on the need for exploration. Pending the discovery of bronze, we'll be making some fun choices soon.

bobrath

Feb 28, 2007, 08:38 AM

Countdown to the time I start playing: 24hrs

Alright, that was 26 hours ago. :whipped: :whipped:

GreyFox

Feb 28, 2007, 08:45 AM

We are listed as the 2nd most cultured, thanks to the Dancing Goddess:

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f81/9r3yf0x/sgotm02/vq4-BC2470-cultured.jpg

We got animal husbandry, and I played until we get bronze working. The good news is, each resource revealed by each tech are within our great 2nd-in-the-world culture.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f81/9r3yf0x/sgotm02/vq4-BC2080-ah-bw.jpg

I explored the north, and indeed, we are blocked land wise from India:

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f81/9r3yf0x/sgotm02/vq4-BC2080-blocked.jpg

The barbs are starting to spawn like the infestation they are. First our scout got killed by a lion, then a few barbs suicided into our warrior:

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f81/9r3yf0x/sgotm02/vq4-BC2290-barbs.jpg

They even have a city nearby:

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f81/9r3yf0x/sgotm02/vq4-BC2080-gandhi-barb.jpg

As apparent from the screenshot above, Gandhi has at least a second city.

Here is the resource map: dot-map-fanatics, ready your paintbrush!

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f81/9r3yf0x/sgotm02/vq4-BC2080-map.jpg

>>> The Save (2080BC) (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/VQ_SG004_BC2080_01.CivWarlordsSave) <<<

Turn 43, 2710 BC: Combat Odds: 32.2%
Turn 43, 2710 BC: (Class Animal Combat: +100%)
Turn 43, 2710 BC: VQ's Scout is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 43, 2710 BC: VQ's Scout is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 43, 2710 BC: VQ's Scout is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 43, 2710 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 43, 2710 BC: VQ's Scout is hit for 19 (0/100HP)

Turn 45, 2650 BC: Barbarian's Lion (2.00) vs VQ's Warrior (4.10)
Turn 45, 2650 BC: Combat Odds: 0.8%
Turn 45, 2650 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 45, 2650 BC: (Animal Combat: +20%)
Turn 45, 2650 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 45, 2650 BC: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 45, 2650 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 45, 2650 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 45, 2650 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 45, 2650 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 45, 2650 BC: VQ's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Lion!

Turn 46, 2620 BC: Gandhi adopts Slavery!

Turn 48, 2560 BC: You have discovered Animal Husbandry!

Turn 50, 2500 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs VQ's Warrior (3.70)
Turn 50, 2500 BC: Combat Odds: 1.2%
Turn 50, 2500 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 50, 2500 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 50, 2500 BC: VQ's Warrior is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 50, 2500 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 50, 2500 BC: VQ's Warrior is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 50, 2500 BC: VQ's Warrior is hit for 14 (58/100HP)
Turn 50, 2500 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 50, 2500 BC: VQ's Warrior is hit for 14 (44/100HP)
Turn 50, 2500 BC: VQ's Warrior is hit for 14 (30/100HP)
Turn 50, 2500 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 50, 2500 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 50, 2500 BC: VQ's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 57, 2290 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs VQ's Warrior (3.78)
Turn 57, 2290 BC: Combat Odds: 2.5%
Turn 57, 2290 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 57, 2290 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 57, 2290 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 57, 2290 BC: VQ's Warrior is hit for 14 (76/100HP)
Turn 57, 2290 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 57, 2290 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 57, 2290 BC: VQ's Warrior is hit for 14 (62/100HP)
Turn 57, 2290 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 57, 2290 BC: VQ's Warrior is hit for 14 (48/100HP)
Turn 57, 2290 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 57, 2290 BC: VQ's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 59, 2230 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs VQ's Warrior (4.09)
Turn 59, 2230 BC: Combat Odds: 1.8%
Turn 59, 2230 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 59, 2230 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 59, 2230 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 59, 2230 BC: (Feature: +20%)
Turn 59, 2230 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 59, 2230 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 59, 2230 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 59, 2230 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 59, 2230 BC: VQ's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 63, 2110 BC: You have discovered Bronze Working!
Turn 63, 2110 BC: You have discovered a source of Copper near Nidaros!

Opps, think I forgot to enabled it, sorry! :hammer2:

Edit: @bob: I said start playing, give me sometime to actually play and report ;)

Cosmichail

Feb 28, 2007, 09:11 AM

Wow we have both horses and copper in the capitol. Oddly enough we were talking about that on skype (namliaM). I felt that the terrain north of capitol is suitable for a copper find. Sure enough there it is. So move north really pays off now as capitol definitely will be good production center. Those barbs are going to get pesky as we see now already. Good thing we can start building axes once we a get roads. So I take the next tech choice ought to be wheel to connect our resources.

Good stuff and Gandhi growing nicely too. Khan probably has another city too but not visible yet. I see our settler will be done soon which is good so that second city will be up soon.

GreyFox

Feb 28, 2007, 09:33 AM

Yes, we should go for wheel ... I simply click on argiculture without thinking, as I intend to stop right when we learnt BW.

The capitol really turn out well, but the bad thing abt the copper site is it means one less cottage. Good thing abt it is it appears on a grassland, meaning working on it would be self-sufficient. Note also that had we not move north, we would be changing copper for a horse.

One thing is Khan is boxed in, unless there is more land towards the south. This might be good, might be bad. It certainly means that we should get-prepared for an inevitable mongolian campaign.

I have one turn invested in Trading Post while waiting for city to grow. What I am worried is our commerce rate. I had to alternate between working on the lake and the hills to have BW and settler come online at almost the same time. Our next city should be at the triple-gold site to enhance our commerce, either pulling in the fish or the corn. The corn might be a better choice, since that means we don't have to worry abt Gandhi pillaging it. However, that does means we need to learn agriculture soon. Also fish would produce 1 more food than corn field, I think pre-biology with a trading post. Plus fish represent +1 health, since we already have corn in the capitol.

Also, I had not revolted to Slavery, preferring to have the settler finish first.
--

Cosmichail

Feb 28, 2007, 09:57 AM

Had a look at the save and looks like that fish is very close to Gandhi. namliaM was suggesting for the gold we settle inland near corn I think. If we settled in that area then we need IW and get rid of the jungles.

Notice too we have marble south of us and Genghis has horses in his fatcross. Yikes..... Yes a Mongolian campaign is inevitable. Having Gandhi separated by mountains will keep him at a distance until we have grown somewhat. Of course he could easily traverse over by boat to our landmass. Even having a coastal city on that side wouldn't hurt to have the ability to send troops over quickly should Gandhi have another civ on the other side of him and he's under attack. Just a thought.

Didn't look to closely at the barb city but of course they get in way of our wanting the gems or gold. Is that city positioned good for taking or does it need to be razed?? Knowing barbs probably settled one tile from coast.

Have fun Bob...........

namliaM

Feb 28, 2007, 10:02 AM

I dont like the idea of culture battling gandhi over those fish.
The fish gold site is also food poor I think... and has quite a bit of overlap with Nidaros.

It looks like we can put down 2 or 3 decent cities north of Nidaros if we choose... as well as grabbing the Gems and Gold sites. makes for atleast 5 cities...

What is the next build after the settler? Trading post/Axeman/Barracks/Settler (whipped for 2?)

Edit: Nice going fox, getting our Woodsman Scout eaten ! :yumyum:

bobrath

Feb 28, 2007, 10:23 AM

IIRC we don't need a road to be hooked up to the copper... Its on a coast as is or city and since we have sailing then the sea acts as our road... Right?

@GreyFox, I gave you 2 hours to play and post! hee hee. Good stuff, great to see all the progress we've made so far.

Not playing until much later tonight (at least 10 hours), but more likely will play tomorrow depending on discussion that occurs.

I do want lots of feedback on the second city site. The aggresive player in me wants to reach far into Khan's territory now to try to disrupt his expansion by blocking his borders off. While the tech-monger likes that gold site.

bobrath

Feb 28, 2007, 10:45 AM

MY quick n dirty dotmap (of ugly snap reflexes)
http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/198/vq4bc2080mapst1.jpg

Light blue indicates my aggresive founding thoughts. Left Solid dot is an easy choice, right hollow dot loses the coastal bonus, but picks up a better location with the corn - and closes our borders sooner. Light blue pair is also across the jungle and that makes for a bit less reliance upon iron working for clearing duties right away. I do like snatching the marble from Genhis. Might make a difference if we figure out what's under that fog north of light blue

Red is the barb city and I think we should probably raise it and refound it one west. That is on a gem resource, but it puts us on the coast - key for ragnar. Since that barb city is in a jungle, I'd suggest postponing taking it until we have the work bandwidth to do some jungle clearing. We can camp a cover axe or two in the jungle next to it and be perfectly safe from barb excursions.

Dark blue solid picks up the corn, but hollow to the west is on a hill for better defense. Not sure being near Ghandi what we would like there. Solid is the better site from a pure resource point of view. Not sure about all those hills tho.

Anyway, feel free to rip it up!

Cosmichail

Feb 28, 2007, 10:46 AM

I do think you need a road for the copper but I hope I'm wrong and learn something new.

As to second city site (sounds like comic team Akroyd/Belushi/Candy) I agree with namliaM, too food poor to work anything at gold site. Better to go after gems spices/sugar and corn. Somewhere in that area except barbs are there now. Maybe give our new axes something to do and get some experience. I like the idea of going right up Genghis's kazoo but last time I did that in SP prince game got DOW fairly soon thereafter. Plus we really need a super commerce city and benefit from Ragnar's trait. Capitol will pump out axes pretty fast but we are definitely going to need spears with him having horses in fatcross. Would like to see what he has in his city and where he built his 2nd city. (we can't see but I'm sure he must have built one by now)

Let's hope he has no copper. Looking forward to your turn and take your time Bob no hurry. (Well I'll be counting down 10 hours now or do you need 2 hours extra to play and post....:lol: )

EDIT: crossposted I like the barb city although it's one tile from coast maybe move 1 inland as the hollow blue dot (I think) will interfere with Gandhi's culture.

bobrath

Feb 28, 2007, 10:57 AM

I said at least 10 hours!!!!! ;)

Cosmichail

Feb 28, 2007, 11:05 AM

Geez an hour has already passed by so 9 hours now?:p

Also I do agree Ragnar should build coastal cities always but in the case of the gems/spices/sugar I think moving inland would serve us well being that we pickup the corn too. Yep jungle land unfortunately but like you say we don't have to rush that site and can choose elsewhere. Putting axes at barb city will help us keep an eye in the event Genghis gets frisky with barbs.

So as an alternate I'd say the hollow cyan dot but really don't like that desert south if that is what it is. We do get the marble but personally I think we really need a commerce site now but barb area is going to need lots of workers which will take time and if we settle there now won't do us much good for a while.

The other thing I like about moving 1 inland at barb site too is it will cut GK off from getting to north and take lands there but again I leave it in your hands what do Bob since I am torn about where to settle.

namliaM

Feb 28, 2007, 11:52 AM

We definatly need the road on the copper! Come on bob, you must be kidding...

We could move the gold city 2 tiles east, that way it can take the pigs from Nadiros and the Corn, makes for some much needed food.

I like the hollow blue over the red (barb?) dot... but I am not sure about settling that coast... We would have to park some triremes on watch there to protect them nets... wasting ours and Gandhi's hammers... Maybe we should leave that entire coast to Gandhi?? On both sides that is....
Tho I hate losing that gems... guess we have to find some commerce someplace???

And there is the (obvious) sugar/horse city south of Nadira

frankcor

Feb 28, 2007, 12:34 PM

I finally got to this thread yesterday (but it took me a day to catch up reading). Your official lurker is reporting for duty now!

Maquis

Feb 28, 2007, 01:17 PM

I am reading this right... Bob's grabbed the save? That's alright with me, as long I know that and do not take it as well!

Last I saw from namliaM was:

namliaM -- +1 gmt (Actually +2 atm due to DST)
Greyfox -- +8 gmt
Maquis -- -7 gmt
Bobrath -- -5 gmt
Healium -- +1 gmt
Scowler -- gmt
Frankcor-- -5 gmt
Cosmichail -- -5gmt (I think)

I can take it anytime tonight or tomorrow, as it looks like I'll be snowed in again! (another foot on top of the 2 feet last weekend!)

I do like the idea of moving the gold site east... we want enough food to work all 3 mines... so having access to the Pigs is nice; I don't think there's enough food with just the corn to work all 3 mines... at least not till late.

As for where to settle, I don't think we need to rush to the gold site... but it may be wise to rush to block off GK. He'll be a b*tch to take out once he has Keshiks... Not sure if we could build up and have such an early war however?

bobrath

Feb 28, 2007, 01:35 PM

We definatly need the road on the copper! Come on bob, you must be kidding...
I'm not kidding, but I'll be anxious to see. (being stuck at work sucks!)

We could move the gold city 2 tiles east, that way it can take the pigs from Nadiros and the Corn, makes for some much needed food.

Nice choice in that it would keep the 3 gold in its BFC.

I like the hollow blue over the red (barb?) dot... but I am not sure about settling that coast... We would have to park some triremes on watch there to protect them nets... wasting ours and Gandhi's hammers... Maybe we should leave that entire coast to Gandhi?? On both sides that is....
Tho I hate losing that gems... guess we have to find some commerce someplace???

With that site, I was pretty much ignoring the sea resources. I would only work "normal" sea squares and wouldn't contest the sea squares unless we got parked (which I've never seen an AI do). Post calendar hollow red dot would be a great site.

And there is the (obvious) sugar/horse city south of Nadira

Not sure I see the exact site... but the one I drew does look like a good second tier site in my new and improved (with commentary) dot map:
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/5883/vq4bc2080mapnextdi9.jpg

Numbers indicate order I would found them - assuming we go either cyan OR dark blue. Barb city comes later (ie at our convenience). I don't know that conceding the west coast to Ghandi is necessary. We can still (imo) put cities there - they can act as magnets and lookouts for any invasion. But additionally, if we ever do decide to hand over cities they would benefit from immediate "inclusion" into the upgraded Indian empire.

As I was drawing the above dotmap, I got to be more and more enchanted with the cyan plan. Moving the eastern one inland avoids the desert and picks up some nice perks. Those two sites are viable sites in their own rights, but combined they seal off our peninsula. Yes, distance wise they are less optimal both from a maint and military pov, however they would bust a good chunk of fog. :p Would definitely need a good road from capital to cyan1 to speed any axes that we build in capital AND to provide the copper for self built axes (not to mention bringing marble to our capital).

bobrath

Feb 28, 2007, 01:37 PM

I am reading this right... Bob's grabbed the save? That's alright with me, as long I know that and do not take it as well!

I think GreyFox is trying to set the stage for one day him handing another Nara off to me! I have not picked up the save Maquis, its all yours.

As for where to settle, I don't think we need to rush to the gold site... but it may be wise to rush to block off GK. He'll be a b*tch to take out once he has Keshiks... Not sure if we could build up and have such an early war however?

Sounds like you're leaning my way. Muah ha ha

Maquis

Feb 28, 2007, 04:22 PM

Ok I got it; playing in a few hours. I'm still leaning toward settling south... anyone have a major objection? Looking at the save, GK may have some more land to the SW...

namliaM

Feb 28, 2007, 05:44 PM

keshiks are not that bad if you have a few spears both on offence and defence ...

I am allmost sure that corn is going to be high on Khan's list of sites to settle... I dont think we can get there in time...

Cyan 2 looks low on food to me :(

Blue one is exactly where I thought... Dont forget we can put atleast 2 good cities maybe even 3 up north...

Cosmichail

Feb 28, 2007, 05:48 PM

I'm fine with the south site cyan no 1 but do not like the gold blue #1. Why it takes the pigs away Nidaros which has a lot of plains hills to work so just clams/corn may not be enough unless you convince me otherwise.

Maquis don't be surprised when you try to settle Genghis isn't far away as he has to have settled second city by now being imperialistic. Although fog is gone we haven't scouted lately there I think and maybe some cities there already. If anything he has to have settled the wine/sheep area by now which still gives us room to settle on cyan no.1

Have fun Maquis and I remember Minnesota's weather well. Spent some time in Manitoba (another lovely place for weather) and travelled quite a bit to North Dakota/Minnesota. No wonder good hockey team there. We are getting freezing rain tomorrow oh goody.

EDIT: Blue site is great for that city I am just concerned what happens to Nidaros since it can't build any farms and only will have two food sources.

GreyFox

Feb 28, 2007, 07:49 PM

I think GreyFox is trying to set the stage for one day him handing another Nara off to me! I have not picked up the save Maquis, its all yours.

Huh? I don't think I had mention who's up after me.

Yeah, blame me for everything.

(whipped for 2?)

Please, NO WHIPPING (unless in really dire situation).

Our capitol has 5 hills and a copper. Currently we have max happiness of 6. If we need the production, simply assign all 6 pops to work on all 6 mines and you get at least 18 hammers per turn. In 3 turns we would have exceeded the amount of hammers a pop can give. Even if you can show me how the capitol can re-grow back to size 6 in 2 turns, it is still not worth it to incur the happiness penalty.

I think bob may be right in the no road is needed (I recall something like this in SGOTM1).

But we still need road for the horses.

--

Maquis

Feb 28, 2007, 08:55 PM

Quick report here... mostly uneventful 20 turns...

Tech:
I switched us to Wheel instead of Ag. We will need to road to the copper to get it online.

Once Wheel was learned, I went for Ag. That came in on turn 18, so I picked Masonry next. Why? Maybe we want Marble? :)

If you didn't figure it out... I sent the settler south, to Cyan #1. Kahn has not expanded to the north at all (yet!)

Here's Upsala:

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/7760/civ4screenshot0002pt0.jpg

Back in our capital, once the Trading Post was built, I got a little bold...

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/8341/civ4screenshot0004kx1.jpg

Hopefully no one was opposed to an early wonder! (With our production, it was only 11 turns to complete!)

This of course will help all our cities' culture early on... as well as the GPP points (to get a later religion, or the shrine)

One other thing of note, Gandhi founded Judism. Hopefully that's a good sign that he's teching along just fine...

As I ended my turns, the workers were almost completed hooking up the horses, and still need to road the copper mine (yes, it needs to be roaded, we can't build axes yet!) They will need to farm the corn still as well.

Here's the (short!) turnlog:
Turn 72, 1840 BC: Uppsala has been founded.

Turn 74, 1780 BC: You have discovered The Wheel!

Turn 81, 1570 BC: You have discovered Agriculture!

Turn 82, 1540 BC: Judaism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 83, 1510 BC: VQ has completed Stonehenge!
Turn 83, 1510 BC: Gandhi adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 83, 1510 BC: Gandhi converts to Judaism!

And the save: VQ BC1450 (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4//VQ_SG004_BC1450_01.CivWarlordsSave)

GreyFox

Mar 01, 2007, 06:10 AM

Wow, we got stonehedge? That probably save us the trouble of monument.

Hmm ... I am surprise that GK has yet settle up ... it seems like there is more land to the south in which he must be settling first.

Don't know abt Masonry though ... we need writing and pottery ASAP ... and the capitol shouldn't be stagnanting ...

Overall our progress are looking good. :goodjob:

--

namliaM

Mar 01, 2007, 08:17 AM

Wow taking 2 chances in 1 turnset... Grabbing the Hedge and walking out that far to get a new city... Nice going getting that city... and the free obelisks will help the borders... Do we want to go all the way and grab Cyan 2 as well before grabing blue 1 and 2 (or 2 and 1)??

Upsulla gets +6 food with the (farmed) corn, it has 15! one food tiles. Making it a total of -9 food, or pre-biology it is going to need 9 farms. 4 grassland cottages and 6 plains/grassland hill tiles/cottages? It can work 10 cottages, making quite a nice commerce city.
The marble hint is that intended to finger towards the most famous of marble based miracles TGL? If we want it do we want it in Upsulla or Nadiro? Or in the gold city?

About the gold city, we dont have to take the pigs if we dont want to...
The 3 gold hills + plains? Hill + 3 plains + 1 grass hill = -12 food.
The Corn gives +4 and CC +2 = 6 food, leaving us with 6 food to find somewhere, either farmed grassland/plains or the pigs + farms.

Nadiro needs 11 food to work all the tiles. CC (2) + Corn (4) + Lake (1) + Clams (3) = 10. So we just need the one farm to work all the tiles (excluding the pigs). And we can swap the pigs between the capitol (when it needs growing) and the Gold city when the capitol is maxed.

I think if you want to max out the usage of the Gold and NOT use the fish in that water between us and Gandhi the only and fastest way by far is to work the Pigs (+4) + Corn (Unirrigated! +3) for +9 food so we can work the 3 gold mines (-6 food). Without the pigs we can hardly work the gold mines pre-CS (chain farming) without moving the city and working the (netted => pillagable) fish.

Refering to the workers as "they" means we have atleast 2? One should start *under armed escort* start roading south towards Upsulla and blue 2. Maybe skipping the city spot for Blue 2 (if we plant that down soon) to allow road completion when the city is planted and saving worker turns. And/Or are we building a worker in Upsulla?
We should connect the cities ASAP as we are missing out on 2 commerce (traderoutes) per turn. Which is roughly an increase of 12.5% of our current commerce rate.

I think too we want Pottery over Masonry, it is going to be a while before those borders expand and we have a worker in Upsulla to start working the marble (if at all). If not for cottages, then we do need the Granary.
Also having Priesthood might be nice both for another Marble based wonder and the temples to outfit our religion with.

Re: (not) Whipping the capitol

a) Working all 6 mines yields 5 food (-7fpt)/25 hammers (4 plains hills (0/16) + Copper (2/4) + Grass hill (1/3) + CC (2/2) ).
The foodbar on size 6 can hold 20 + 3*6 = 38 food, meaning we can sustain this for 5 turns if the foodbar is nearly full at >35 food. 5 * 25 = 125

b) Then we go back to working food, Corn, Pigs and Clams. +4 +4 and +3(assuming lighthouse) respectively, adding the copper 2/4, CC 2/2, Grass hill 1/3 and Plains 0/4. Getting the city to +8fpt, taking again ~5 turns to fill the foodbar. 13hpt * 5 = 65 hammers.
Rince and repeat for a 10 turn cicle of 190 hammers for 30 turns (2 whips) = 570 hammers.

Actually ... due to b having +8 and a having -7 we can run a for a total of 8 and b a total of 7 turns out of the 15 and be (effectively) at 0 food.
8 * 25 + 7 * 13 = 291
For 30 turns that is 291 * 2 = 582

Not whipping Nadiro earns us 582 hammers in 30 turns alternating between all production and Max food/production.

Assuming a granary...
Size 4>5 requires a total of 32 food, Size 5>6 requires 19 food, Size 6>7 requires 21 food, 15 food (or more) added to the granary for a total of 32 (but less than 38!) food on size 6 will make the city grow from 4>5 the next turn if you whip for 2 pop.

In 15 turns we need to grow 15 food (required on size 6) plus 19 food to grow 5>6. For a total of 34 or an average of ~2.2666 fpt.
Or +2fpt and need an additional 4 someplace.
1 Turn at size 4: Clams (5/0) + CC (2/2) + Copper (2/4) + Grass hill (1/3) + Corn (6/0) = 16(+8f)/9
At size 5:
a) Corn (6/0) + Clams (5/0) + CC (2/2) + Copper (2/4) + Grass hill (1/3) + Plains hill (0/4) = 16(+4fpt)/13
b) Clams (5/0) + CC (2/2) + Copper (2/4) + Grass hill (1/3) + 2 Plains hill (0/8) = 16(-2fpt)/17
c) Pigs (6/0) + Corn (6/0) + Clams (5/0) + CC (2/2) + Copper (2/4) + Grass hill (1/3) = 22(+12)/9
d) Pigs (6/0) + Corn (6/0) + Clams (5/0) + CC (2/2) + Copper (2/4) + Plains hill (0/4) = 22(+11)/10

Idealy we want to end turn 15 at the required 32 food at size 6, but stay as long at size 5 as possible to keep from sustaining the unhappy face. Thus we have the 8 food carried over from size 4 and want to limit our food at size 5 to 34 so we dont grow. 8 + 16 (granary) = 24 so we can do
a 1 turn +4/13 Total: 28 food 22 hammers
b 9 turns -18/153 Total: 10/175

Changing to c to grow to the required size 6....
d 3 turns +33/30 Total: 43 (+8 to size 6)/215
At size 6 we run d except now we have a foodsurplus of only 9 due to the one unhappy. The granary brings 17 from size 5, requiring 1 turn at size 6 (1 unhappy). Total: 17 + 8 + 9 = 35 food / 225
Add the whip of 2 pop = 88 (IIRC it is not 90 due to a rounding error) = 303 hammers in 15 turns.
In 30 turns: 606 hammers.
While staying in size 5 as much as possible we offcourse get a lower (net) production. But after adding the 2 whips one can do in 30 turns, makes for a total of 606 hammers.

Tho both require -some- MM, the whipping (I think) is a little more MM switching tiles 3 times and whipping once every 15 turns.
Just working the tiles requires switching tiles once every ~5 turns to not grow or not starve.
The whip beats the not-whip situation by some >20 hammers per 30 turns or roughly a free archer. All in all the difference is less than I had expected from looking at the chart I made here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5143911&postcount=27) on page 2.

Roster
namliaM -- +1 gmt (Actually +2 atm due to DST)
Greyfox -- +8 gmt
Maquis -- -7 gmt
Bobrath -- -5 gmt < UP
Healium -- +1 gmt > Get ready cause here it comes ;)
Scowler -- gmt
Frankcor-- -5 gmt
Cosmichail -- -5gmt (I think)

*** Disclaimer ***
Please let me know if you find any errors in the whipping thing...

bobrath

Mar 01, 2007, 08:38 AM

Wow, totally didn't expect to get a wonder built! I do guess that means we have yet to send out a ship to explore tho... grumble.

I suspect my turns will be centered around units more then improvements. We've got to have barbs showing up in greater numbers, at least until we can fog bust efficiently.

Where to found our next city? I'd prefer cyan 2 to seal our border off from Khan's settlers. Yes he hasn't founded towards us and may have tons of room below him, but why not make sure we've carved out our own nice chunk of land in the mean time?

Teching towards pottery and writing next makes sense to me.

Any input on how many turns I should play?

Maquis

Mar 01, 2007, 09:10 AM

I suspect my turns will be centered around units more then improvements. We've got to have barbs showing up in greater numbers, at least until we can fog bust efficiently.

I actually only saw one barb (warrior) during my turnset, and he was headed off to Mongolian lands... So they're not exactly raging at this point...

And no, I did not build a ship yet. There is a turn or two left on Rax in the capital.

As for number of turns, I played 20... and that seemed short, but I didn't want to overextend my welcome either :)

namliaM

Mar 01, 2007, 10:00 AM

I think we can do 20 for now right?? maybe a turn or 2 more if that makes a nice cut of turn....

Why indeed is Nadira on stagnant?? We can grow another population...
Warriors we can build 2 in 3 turns that is nice and quick for Fog busting
Or build 1 chariot in 2 turns...
Trireme is 5 turns tho... and we have none at the moment getting one for scouting Gandhi's land and beyond (via the northern tundra) would be very nice...

Uppsala can grow to size 2 while finishing that warrior, then start a worker to be whipped for 1 pop?? to finish it way faster than hand building it there...

BTW: We have not yet addopted slavery....

Edit: About barbs... I didnt spot any (animal) barbs near the city either I think ... the thing is as long as the barbs do not know where your city is... they cannot beeline for it either...

frankcor

Mar 01, 2007, 11:54 AM

Whoa, Cyan #1 AND Stonehenge? That's quite a coup!

I concur that Cyan #2 is a high priority to seal off our neighborhood. The jungle gap between Nidaros and our two Cyan cities should be safe for a while. The AI avoid jungle cities until they run out of non-jungle space to settle.

My suggestions:

Build Nidaros -> galley > axe > axe > settler ?

Build Uppsala -> Warrior (until Pop 2) then switch to Worker

Research -> definitely Pottery > Priesthood (for Oracle?)

Workers -> Road horses, copper then road to Uppsala

namliaM

Mar 01, 2007, 01:32 PM

I wouldnt yet build Axemen... get 4 or so Warriors out instead they make execelent (cheap) MP and Fog busters.

Couple of Chariots will also help against the barbs which are cheaper than axemen. I to think we need the settler sooner rather than later, but not without (atleast) 2 chariots or so to help it move protected.

Getting a galley out would be nice as well.

Edit: did you any of you folks check the progress page?? it is hillarious how our culture looks .... Now lets get to expanding and exploring...

GreyFox

Mar 01, 2007, 06:08 PM

Re: culture: Most experience SG players tend to shy away from an early religion gambit as they are usually war-mongers. We OTOH grab hindu and stonehedge. :lol: Look at the power graph and you won't find it hilarious anymore .... :p

The problem with Cyan #2 is the settling party needs to pass by the barb city at awlfully close proximity, so chariots escort is necessary. Chariots escort also means faster movement, since chariots can keep up with settler.

"Getting a galley out will be nice" ... uh-uh. Getting a trireme out will be better.

--

namliaM

Mar 01, 2007, 11:22 PM

The powergraph doesnt look that bad... I think we are doing OK...

Offcourse Trireme > Galley, more so considering we are sending it into Gandhi land... Still got vanilla and C3C on the brain :scan:

Cosmichail

Mar 02, 2007, 05:45 AM

mmmmmm religion gambit played by rookies aye?? Experienced players go a warmongering. Ok sounds good Greyfox but can you splain one ting senor, CFR used relgion for both SGOTM and look at the results. Look at our results for SGOTM03 and thnk religion would have helped us get better results. I remember the CFR team talking about taking a chance in SGOTM02 and it paid off for them big time.

So I don't think it's a matter of experience but play style. Religion for me isn't about accepting it, it's about the culture push for the founding city and respective buildings, temples, monasteries and cathedrals. Three monasteries add 30% science, so the hydra if pulled off, can make your capitol quite powerful and a landgrabbing culture push which I just love.

:p :p

Maquis

Mar 02, 2007, 06:54 AM

Sorry about leaving the capital stagnated... that was a :smoke: on my part. I stagnated it to max hammers for Stonehedge, and then forgot to change it back on my last turn. :blush:

healium

Mar 02, 2007, 07:25 AM

sorry team i have to request a skip-period even before i started playing.
i have a herniated vertebral disk and cannot sit in front of the computer at all. will be in the hospital monday. will report back after that.
sorry folks

bobrath

Mar 02, 2007, 07:59 AM

pre-turn jitters? ;) No worries Healium, hope your back works out and you feel better soon.

Agree that walking a settler to cyan2 will require some sort of an escort, but would not a pair of fog busting axes camped on the barb city serve the same purpose?

Yes, a tireme will be far superior to a galley (unsure about hammer cost difference).

Religion wise, we now have some nice options since Ghandi has his own religion and we have ours since we can "force" folks into Ghandi's camp. This does require that one of our cities picks up his religion so that we can create missionaries for him and spread his religion. This (assuming a shrine) will increase Ghandi's economy as well. So we'll need to try to set up some "religion catching" cities along our border with G and *not* spread our religion to them until another does. Eventually we'll get lucky and can begin "helping" our "good buddy" Ghandi.
I'll be playing tonight.

frankcor

Mar 02, 2007, 09:31 AM

So we'll need to try to set up some "religion catching" cities along our border with G and *not* spread our religion to them until another does. Eventually we'll get lucky and can begin "helping" our "good buddy" Ghandi.

That's genius, bobrath. Would roads to the border help, too? How do religions spread from AIs with which we are at war? I've seen it happen in the past but I thought religions spread to cities with which you have trade routes. That doesn't make sense if you're at war with the AI.

A Galley makes more sense than a Trireme if there's a chance to pop some huts with a scout on board.

bobrath

Mar 02, 2007, 10:14 AM

IIRC religion spread can only be prevented by Theocracy (ie open borders have no effect on the automatic spread only on the missionary spread). Shrines increase the chance of the missionary-less spread. I'm not 100% certain how war affects this tho - might be a good thing to try in an SP game. Set up a map with two Religion happy civs (Izzy and ?) on one landmass and you on another (coastal separation) and declare war the moment you meet one of them (keeping peace with other). Then sit back and see if you get any religions from the war civ vs the other civ (but keep borders closed with both).

Do we have the tech for scouts? Regardless, since the hammer cost of triremes is equal to galleys (50 hammers each) and a Scout would cost 15 extra - I'd put forward the idea that the first ship out should be the more durable trireme while a follow-up scout + galley can go to pop huts and explore more friendly lands.

GreyFox

Mar 02, 2007, 05:57 PM

Of-course we have ... Ragnar start off with a settler and a scout. But no, a scout only make sense in caravel, not a galley in warlords. The AI loves to build triremes, so it becomes too risky to go exploring in galley (which gain little benefits, since chances are all huts are already popped on the same continent)

EDIT: Re religions spread: AFAIK, trade, open border, shrines, all encourage religion spread, not enable. I have a religion spread in an always war game once. But only once. So, one can assume that the prob of religion spread between two city is close to (but non-) zero. Having a trade route, open borders, or shrine helps increases this prob.

bobrath

Mar 02, 2007, 09:52 PM

Ok, I'm not 100% happy with my turns, but I'm not disappointed either. Just kind of ... meh

Anyway, I allowed Nidaros to grow again and it proceeded to churn out:
Tireme, Chariot, Chariot, Axeman, Settler (finish next turn). No whip applied

Upsala wasn't a good whip canidate because workers would cost 2 or 3 pop points! So it finished off the warrior and has barracks with 12 of 75 hammers in (can whip for one pop at any time). Set to overflow into a worker. No whip applied here either.

I changed research from Masonry to Pottery since we weren't going to pop Upsala's borders for 13 turns nor have a worker nearby for even longer. Just now restarted research on it (no beakers lost) 3 turns left to finish Masonry. In the mean time we discovered Pottery and Archery (barb fear got the better of me).

We did revolt to Slavery during my turns.

Killed one barb warrior with a chariot and all military units are now fully healed. Our two cities are connected thanks to a road and the river. Worker can no continue the road to Upsala to allow military traffic OR begin roading to Cyan2 if so desired.

Our chariots are north and south of the barb city (size 3 now) and a woodsman axe has just arrived outside the border. Intent to keep an eye on the city and get some free upgrades. Our settler should have a clear path to whichever site is desired. Border pops on both cities helped in fog busting, really only need to camp a unit in the far north and our internal area should be fine.

We're currently running 70% research @ 0 gpt with 1 g in the treasury.

Hmm, what else. It appears as if we have no worries about Ghandi being smart enough to find the stars:
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/7569/civ4screenshot0003pm5.jpg
and this might be a small reason why:
http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/3204/civ4screenshot0004we9.jpg

The resources of the known world:
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/4767/civ4screenshot0006gu3.jpg
and the cultural borders:
http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/6711/civ4screenshot0008tm4.jpg

Guessing Ghandi has 4 cities and Khan has founded at least one to his west. I still think cyan2 is the next best choice, if only to seal our borders AND provide some extra fog busting.

Nidaros will grow soon (but this can be delayed if you build a worker next) - its at the happy and health limit. Corn is not yet farmed, and pigs are not yet roaded (so health will be fine).

Not much else to say, but enjoy the relative calm of these early turns!

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/VQ_SG004_BC0910_01.CivWarlordsSave)

Turn Log:

Turn 92, 1240 BC: You have discovered Pottery!

Turn 93, 1210 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 93, 1210 BC: VQ adopts Slavery!
Turn 93, 1210 BC: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.

Turn 96, 1120 BC: You have trained a Warrior in Uppsala. Work has now begun on a Worker.

Turn 98, 1060 BC: The borders of Uppsala have expanded!

Turn 100, 1000 BC: VQ's Chariot (4.40) vs Barbarian's Warrior (3.00)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Combat Odds: 89.4%
Turn 100, 1000 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: VQ's Chariot is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: VQ's Chariot is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: VQ's Chariot is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: VQ's Chariot is hit for 16 (36/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: VQ's Chariot has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 101, 985 BC: You have discovered Archery!
Turn 101, 985 BC: The Great Wall has been built in a far away land!

Turn 103, 955 BC: The borders of Nidaros have expanded!

GreyFox

Mar 03, 2007, 01:50 AM

Great job exploring Gandhi ... Delhi is outrageously absurd. But I am not complaining, that at least would help Gandhi stay ahead.

You researched archery but build no archers? :crazyeye:

With a chariot and an axe nearby, we should probably raze that barb city soon.

We should probably stop the barracks in upsala and switch to a worker. No sense building something we don't need right now, and even if Uppsala grow to 3, it wouldn't improve the worker build rate any further.

Research wise, we should try to get writing and Priesthood for temples to allow Nidaros to grow.

We now know where GK has expanded to:

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f81/9r3yf0x/sgotm02/vqsgotm4-GK.jpg

I am submitting a new dotmap:

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f81/9r3yf0x/sgotm02/vqsgotm4-dotmap.jpg

Basically the same as namliaM's. However, proposed we grab the fish for blue dot. Why? It is better that way. at least that free the corn for a GP-Farm in the middle of the sugar field (orange dot).

Who's UP?

namliaM

Mar 03, 2007, 01:57 AM

i have a herniated vertebral disk
Wow, *OUCH* and into the hospital that fast... Good luck man... Dont be out to long or you will miss the whole game, us beeing VQ and all ;)

About the religion spread, we allways have our friend Khan... If he can get OBs with Gandhi and have the religion spread to him, we have OBs with Khan => Spread to us... ??? Will require some luck I think seeing as religion spread is more like RNG than anything.
One game (OK back in Vanilla) I couldnt settle a city without getting a religion inside of 10 turns. (I hadnt founded one yet all other civs) The "painfull" part it was all the early 3 religions that spread to me so I had to missionary one all over :(.
Other games, I cannot seem to get a religion dispite the OBs... No matter how much I "try".
I do agree with the overall plan tho. If we can start spreading Gandhi's religion to ourselves (to start with) and next to all AI. This will/can have 2 benifits
1) The AI change to Gandhi's religion => Better relations => More trading/less war
2) More gold from the shrine (should Gandhi build it ??!! Again RNG?)

Upsala wasn't a good whip canidate because workers would cost 2 or 3 pop points! So it finished off the warrior and has barracks with 12 of 75 hammers in (can whip for one pop at any time). Set to overflow into a worker. No whip applied here either. No no no.... :mad: havent you learned the whip yet?? :lol:

You put some turns into the worker, yes at first the worker will be 2 pop.. but soon -in 15 turns or so- it will be one.
Whipping the barracks will generate minimum overflow, compared to just hand building the worker. I think also I would have build a granary to induce the growth instead of the barracks which we wont be using for a while there... since we need to build the Granary there too....
2 Options on Uppsala I think:
1) Swap to the worker, build it long enough (> 45 hammers into the worker) to be a 1 pop whip
2) Keep working the barracks (or swap to a Granary) and grow to size 4, whip the worker for 2. (to grow to size 4 is approx 17 turns)
And another option in Nadiros:
Handbuild a worker in Nadiros, which badly needs to connect that Corn for better production. We can use Nadiros to build workers/settlers like there is no tomorrow... At 25 production per turn, a settler every 6 turns or a worker in just 4.

*** Hmz *** After looking at the save. Nadiros allready has a worker in the que with 29 hammers into it. Which basicaly only leaves option 1. Build the worker for 4 more turns to get to a total of 49, now it should be whippable by 1 pop.

Re: Gandhi taking off into the stars...
Yes for now he is smart, on the other hand... he is very much limited by (land) space to go for space. Soon the other AI will have outexpanded the poor boldy and will start to out-tech him. I think we need to either improve our lands as good as possible to allow Gandhi to take over our lands (and that of Khan) ASAP.
+ We need to find ourselves a new home...
Gandhi has room for 5 more or less decent cities... I think... we have 2 options...
1) Claim/settle as much land/cities as we know how to settle it and improve it, where the AI may well bodge the job...
Then hope/pray that Gandhi comes in with some sort of offensive to take over our cities and doesnt deside to raze them...
2) Just setlle our dotmap
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/5883/vq4bc2080mapnextdi9.jpg
Including razing (I think, it is much better for gandhi in the end should he come in) the barb city and relocating it to the coast. (Hollow red)
Maybe even settling a city to our north just south of them sheep, eventually... Allowing gandhi 2 maybe even 3 cities (if he does it right, One to the north of red 3, One to the NW of Nadiros with the clams and one on the tundra) decen cities on our part of the world, making a larg(er) scale infation by him much more likely I think.

Another option is to make our civ strong settling everthing whiping out Khan along the way and allow Gandhi to settle that. Him having the cities that would otherwize be Khan's. Some 5 cities there I think?? Tho maintenance is going to be hell for Gandhi I think...

namliaM

Mar 03, 2007, 02:28 AM

Re: Khan settling, I am betting he has atleast one or 2 cities due east as well.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f81/9r3yf0x/sgotm02/vqsgotm4-dotmap.jpg
Re: Hollow blue...
Settling on the gold is not good I think. Also the fish have allready been netted by Gandhi, he is also (allready) throwing culture onto that fish. It is going to be a long hard culture battle over that fish tile before/if we get it... I think we want that gold online ASAP. Plus settling it where it can have the pigs (if not needed by Nadiros) will allow us to completely cottage (IIRC) the place up (other than the 2 resource tiles)

Also settling the red 3 on the gems is quite a waste... How about moving it 1 NW, where it will get the clams and fish (battle with gandhi for culture... + pillage risk)

Re: GP Farm, I think Karakorum would make a better one ;)
The purple city is right where it should be I think...
The green city is high on food low on production and landtiles I think. How about moving it one NW? Missing the fish... and a bit low on food, but one or 2 farms maybe a windmill on those hills will resolve that.... Right now it has 6 (cottagable) land tiles.
Moving it NW would give it double (12) land tiles.
The sheep give +3, CC +2, making a total of +5. The hills and plains require 12 food tho... Mill all them hills (4 Grass, 2 Plains and 1 dessert) and you are left with only -5 food for the 2 plains hills, 1 dessert hill and 2 plains tiles. Leaving again 6 Cottagable tiles. But overall a much stronger city I think.
There is room for 1 more city up north on that Tundra tile just north of our "fog bust here" sign.

@Greyfox: How did you rotate the screen like that??

Roster
namliaM -- +1 gmt (Actually 0 atm due to DST)
Greyfox -- +8 gmt -- Made a new dotty for discussing
Maquis -- -7 gmt
Bobrath -- -5 gmt < Done it *meh*
Healium -- +1 gmt -- Auto skip due to a Herniated disk :( *Good luck man* and be well
Scowler -- gmt > The weekend man is UP
Frankcor-- -5 gmt <Lurker>
Cosmichail -- -5gmt > The flying canadian On deck

Scowler

Mar 03, 2007, 04:51 AM

Fine, I'll take a peek once I've read through namliaM's latest essays :p
If I play tomorrow, Cosmic can then have it on Monday when he has more time.

GreyFox

Mar 03, 2007, 07:28 AM

Ctrl-F, go into flight mode, you can rotate the map anyway you want. I then used gimp to rotate it back (thus the city names are now rotated). I think Alt arrow key will rotate the map in 45 deg step (IIRC).

I thought the red dot is where you proposed, I must have placed it one tile too north. Same, I thought the solid blue dot is where you proposed.

Re: hollow blue dot, remember we have stone hedge, it is a fair fight. Also, re: settling on the gold, explain to me why it is bad. At where solid blue dot is, it will be a very very long time before we can work on all 3 gold mines. Settling on one have the benefit of immediately connecting it.

What's the point of settling on Tundra when you don't even want to settle a city with slightly higher ocean tile?

--

Cosmichail

Mar 03, 2007, 12:57 PM

WHaaatt we get archery when we have copper and horses. What a waste of beakers at this point. Barbs should fear us not the other way around with chariots to kills axes and archers (only on non defensive terrain can a chariot take out archers).

Are you sure Gandhi has enough resources in his capitol. He's got enough there for an OCC. :lol:

Stone/gems/elephants should provide him with adequate commerce production to make him shoot to the stars. I am surprised he practically has no land and thought for sure there would be more land on the other side of him. The other AI's are on another continent so being Ragnar should be fun with our sea faring abilities.

New rule: no more smoking whilst playing............:lol:

I like getting pottery so we can get those cottages up and running soon and build granary for whipping. I do agree though that capitol shouldn't be whipped as it isn't that food rich as some whipping cities. Aaaaahhhh Kyoto brings back fond memories of whipping abuse. Maybe we can find an island like that somewhere. With other AI's likely on another continent are we going to need astronomy?

Settling

I am fine with settling on the gold immediate happy once roaded. No worries about pillaging and we can't work all the gold anyways. We can settle the hollow blue get our use of it and then let Gandhi capture it. Again I am dubious whether the AI will take a city unless we practically handfeed him. Gandhi would have to traverse across water to take the city mmmmm AI doesn't know how to sail maybe that's why Ragnar is there to teach him. ;)

Short term:

Get cities settled/ and get some axes/chariots.
Genghis - when do we start the warring. Wait for construction or try to take some of his newer cities with axes/chariots. I notice too we are down to 70% science and definitely need a commerce city to offset that. A few more cities and we drop to 50% I would imagine.

Long term:

Find other AI's. If not able to get there by galley we will need to go sea faring path: IW/compass/machinery/optics....... and calender too for astronomy. We are talking about GP farms (Karakorum) so maybe do the lightbulb thing again to get us astro of which namliaM knows the path and which techs to avoid if we want to lightbulb astro.

Have fun Scowler and I can pick this up on Monday.

bobrath

Mar 03, 2007, 03:14 PM

New rule: no more smoking whilst playing............:lol:

Agree with ya 100%. Even doing the writeup I was making fun of myself. Waste of a good 9 turns of research. /me boinks self on head.

namliaM

Mar 04, 2007, 05:33 AM

Re: Science, yes we are low on science because we settled our second city far away. For that same reason I dont think we should try to take Cyan 2 now. It will hit our miantenance to hard, without much compensation. I suggest going for Blue 1... Getting the gold will help our economy both in Happy and $$$.

On the red city, I hadnt noticed (earlier) that the red city was on the gems. I think that is (very) wastefull. As much so as settling on the gold. A quick worldbuilder test to prove that ...
http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/2508/goldgemstestiz1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Settling on the gems (for financial civs) is losing 6gpt, while settling the Gold is losing 7gpt. And this is easy early commerce, just build the mine and its there. No need to wait for a cottage to develop nothing... Just get enough food, which is a minor problem on the gold site...

Blue 1 on Bob's dotmap (A) was where I was thinking... but lets see...
Stolen from post #79 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5155942&postcount=79)

About the gold city, we dont have to take the pigs if we dont want to...
The 3 gold hills + plains? Hill + 3 plains + 1 grass hill = -12 food.
The Corn gives +4 and CC +2 = 6 food, leaving us with 6 food to find somewhere, either farmed grassland/plains or the pigs + farms.

Nadiros needs 11 food to work all the tiles. CC (2) + Corn (4) + Lake (1) + Clams (3) = 10. So we just need the one farm to work all the tiles (excluding the pigs). And we can swap the pigs between the capitol (when it needs growing) and the Gold city when the capitol is maxed.

I think if you want to max out the usage of the Gold and NOT use the fish in that water between us and Gandhi the only and fastest way by far is to work the Pigs (+4) + Corn (Unirrigated! +3) for +9 food so we can work the 3 gold mines (-6 food). Without the pigs we can hardly work the gold mines pre-CS (chain farming) without moving the city and working the (netted => pillagable) fish.
There are I think 4 ways you can place that Gold city....
http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/9840/abcdvl4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Hmz, maybe I should have seperated the options... Well here goes...

With gold + gems we have an easy way to get the cities up to 6 pop. Add a religion and a temple and we are at 8. So I will estimate GPT as size 6 for the early comparison of the 4 sites....

A) Bob's second and my suggestion
One thing I like is it takes an otherwize useless tile (the dessert hill) and promotes it to something usefull. But back to the food business.
The 3 gold require 6 food to be worked. Using the Pigs (+4) and the Corn (+3 pre-cs) makes the city (with CC) +9fpt.
At size 5 working the Corn + Pigs + 3 gold mines we have +3fpt left for nice growing. Allowing for 8 grassland cottages and 3 plains cottages, post CS we can even add 1 grass hill cottage. Putting a mill on one grass hill allows for this city to work everyting but the coastal tile and the 2 Plains hill. having the coastal tile is definalty a down side to this site.
Making a total of 12 Cottages at size 17 (OK going to take a long while to get there...).
At size 6 this generates 24 (gold hills) + 1 cottage = 25gpt on size 6.
B) Grey's dotmap
The fish produces +4 food (+3 commerce kicker, once/if we can steel it from Gandhi) and CC makes +6.
The two remaining gold hills require 4 food, making the city +2 food left. 16 + 3 = 19 early commerce. Add 3 coastal tiles = total of 28 gpt on size 6. offcourse this is assuming we can work the fish from turn 1.
The 4 grasslands allow for 4 more cottages. And the +2 food allows for either growing or working 2 plains cottages. A total of 6 cottages.
As a (small) bonus you can work 5 coastal tiles at 3 commerce which for 15 turns is 2gpt better than a cottage. 30 turns equal to a Hamlett, worse ever after. Add 3 cottages to account for the coastal tiles?? Makes a total of 9 cottages at size 14.
C) Bob's original
The 3 gold require 6 food to be worked.
The corn (unirrigate pre-CS) gives 3, cc 2. Add a farm on that river (need Iron working). And you have +6 food without growing... So you need to get to size 6 work 2 farms + Corn to grow slowly (+1 fpt) which will become +2fpt post-CS. Earning in 24 + 2 (river farms) = 26 gpt at size 6.
Then if we want to cottage up as well the 2 Grass hills and the grass tiles. We stagnate at size 13 working 2 farms + Corn + 3 Gold + 5 Grassland cottages + 2 Grass hill cottages = 7 cottages total.
D) My imagination
To start with this site has the (big) downside of a 3 tile overlap with Nadiros, of which 2 will be mined to make Nadiros the production beast we want it to be.
Again the 3 gold hills require 6 food. The Fish (+4) and borrowing/stealing the Pig (+4) from Nadiros makes it +10 (adding CC). Once adding the Gold hills makes it +4fpt. This city can work a meagre 2 grassland cottages and 4 plains cottages.
As a small kicker it can work 2 coastal tiles for 3 commerce. I will count these as 1.5 cottage?? Making a total of 7.5 cottages.
At size 6 working the fish + Pigs + 3 Gold + Coast = 3+0+24+3 = 30gpt, assuming we can work the fish from ~turn 1.

Stealing Gandhi's fish
Stealing the fish (if we can do it) will make Gandhi ineffitably weaker... Is that something we want?
Now about stealing it... IF we can do it... The borders have popped allready on that city of Gandhi, which means it is producing culture. What are the ways of producing culture this early in the game
1) Wonder? No way
2) Library? No way
3) Obelisk
Possible/probable which could mean the city is now producing 1cpt, but will (soon?) go to 2 because of the (IIRC) 1000 year bonus.
Once we settle we will get the 1cpt as well, which will never double cause its the freebee and we will lose alltogether once Calander kicks in. A losing battle, i.e. IMHO we will never (perminantly) own the fish. Unless we can be much faster with other culture buildings. Remember tho Gandhi is spiritual => Cheap temples and he is allready getting the AI building bonus too, which (again IMHO) will make it hard to be faster producing culture than gandhi.
4) Religion
I think ONLY if this city has become the Holy city of Judaism, in which case it is currently producing 6cpt and it is going to be very hard (to say the least) to handle that one ...
5) Temple/Monastary
Needs a religion first, if it has either of those allready then we are really in trouble cause then the culture is allready up to 9cpt or something.

3 things we have going for us in this culture battle,
1) the fish is on our coast and 2 tiles from gandhi's coast.
Which means that -eventually- we will get the culture bonus from having expanded the borders father than that tile, while gandhi will not (big +), but we will have to produce a 150 culture first to get the second border pop. At an average of 4cpt (Obelisk + religion + Lib) = 150/4 = ~40 turns. But first we will have say 20 turns of 1cpt. Then 25 of 2 cpt, making 70. The remaining 80/4 = 20 again. So at the earliest (I think) we will take 65 turns to start gaining on Gandhi, Who knows how long after it will fall to us. Guestimate 100 turns after settling the city?
2) We will eventually (if we grab that city north as well) have 2 cities putting culture into that region, maybe even on the fish.
This will also require that norhern city to be >150 culture and even then its influance will be small, it will also take ~65 turns before starting to affect the fish tile. Maybe shaving a turn or 2 of the "stealing of the fish tile"
3) An AI is bad at culture wars and wont directly proiritize Culture, tho in Gandhi's case beeing spritual and having a headstart allready ...

My oppinion on stealing the fish, at best it is going to be a >100 turn battle to get it.
Because of this I think city B is not an option, as it will not be able to work them hills untill 100 turns from now.
D will have the same culture battle as B and is food poor for the future development of the site, I wouldnt settle here.
City C takes away quite some tiles from Greys Orange city. Overall I think C is not as good as A.

Concidering the fact that Nadiros really doesnt need the Pigs to sustain itself and work all its tiles (adding 1 mill replaing a mine, or 1 farm somewhere will do) in the way way future. Or even now while not working the 0 food or 1 food plains we dont need the pigs for Nadiros, we are not working the (still unimproved) corn (why did we allready research Agriculture and not improved that Corn??? :mad: ) Once it is farmed we can swap the Pigs for Corn and never ever need to work the pigs again... Why not put it to good use in our (major?) science/gold city A?
Eventho city A will be outproduced a big 5gpt early on per turn by city D... After we can get > size 6 and go over the Hamlett point city A will start gaining and soon overtake City D I think.
All that put together I like A over D simply cause of the fish "perril" vs the certainty of the Corn.

The worker really doesnt need to continue to road to Uppsala because the river does the rest of the work for us. In connecting the cities for the Commerce. I think it should return north to farm the corn and/or road towards the gold city.
Just quoting myself (again) get the worker from the que in Uppsall build it for 4 more turns to get to a total of 49, now it should be whippable by 1 pop.
To start improving Uppsala....
Then use Nadiros to get a 3rd settler and 3rd worker for Cyan 2 if still available.

GreyFox

Mar 04, 2007, 08:21 AM

I'd already said I made a mistake in putting the red city on the gem, it should be one tile south. No need to prove that to me using the world builder. All of us know whats the difference between settling on a resource and improving on a resource. As for settling on the gold, as cosmic and I said, it will be a long long time (biology, I think) before we have enough food to work on all the gold. So it makes no difference where you settle the gold city.

Actually I like A, though being one tile away from coast is a minus point since we cant build navy to deter Gandhii from landing there. The corn and pigs in A will allow the city to work on the gold mines and grow. Once the orange city is up, it can return back the corn for the GP-Farm to operate.

--

bobrath

Mar 04, 2007, 10:23 AM

I'm still thinking about it being ok if Ghandi decides to land on our shores - as long as we have somewhere else to run. Remember that we win by losing to a Ghandi space win. Yes, we do need to be strong enough to protect Ghandi from other civs (and to be around long enough to see Ghandi launch!).

I'm ok with not settling Cyan2 right away to avoid the maint hit, but I would like to have a settler hanging out nearby to settle quickly if a Khan party shows up. Always better to have the city then to use units taking it away (and possibly razing).

I didn't improve the corn because roading to our second city was more important (IMO).

Cosmichail

Mar 04, 2007, 12:24 PM

Agree with ya 100%. Even doing the writeup I was making fun of myself. Waste of a good 9 turns of research. /me boinks self on head

That gave me a good laugh. Actually if anything it showed me how crappy our base commerce is. 9 turns for archery seems like a lot and any of my Ragnar games it's more like 4. (that's Ragnar with lots of cottages)

I think too settling the cyan is expensive and the gold site should be priortized to get our base commerce up. I agree with Greyfox on site A but don't like the overlapping although namliaM you make good arguments in that Nidaros won't need the pigs. I also like the C site but then we would need IW to put up farms at the river. So to get our commerce going I think site A is the best option now to change that.

Cosmichail

Mar 04, 2007, 01:28 PM

The more I look at C the more it screams commerce to me. We wouldn't have to farm all those river tiles. Just one to irrigate the corn (post CS of course) if I see it right or more considering how many river tiles there are. (the tile west or south) The others would make great cottage sites and in combination with the gold we'd have one heck of a commerce city. Whereas site A we wouldn't have near the commerce not being on a river.

How fast could we get IW I wonder as getting those river tiles up and running would help a lot and the immediate benefit of gold/corn would be there irregardless of IW or not. We can't get too big yet so settling there shouldn't be a problem considering we can work enough tiles as it is. Long term that would be a major commerce city and we could cottage the grass hills since Nidaros would be our main production city. If anybody agrees (mmmm) then we should build something in any tiles near jungle. Stop those annoying jungles from growing.

At this point though iron isn't that important IW isn't really high on our list of priorties. Just a thought and we definitely need a strong commerce site with a low base commerce right now. EDIT: Or is it.......Khaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnn nnnnnn

Scowler

Mar 04, 2007, 02:05 PM

Alright, could we have a consensus please, since I was originally about to play when namliaM made his post... ;)

I tend to agree with Bob's suggestion of plonking a settler at Cyan 2 and only founding when necessary (cue GreyFox: "settlers are for settling, not for sleeping" :p ), remembering of course that it will also be 15 turns between establishing the city and the borders expanding to seal off our territory from Khaaaan.

As for our City of Gold, I also like the look of C (aka Itchy and Scratchy). Nah, scratch that, I vote for A also.

So...

1) Where exactly am I sending this settler? Seems most likely to be site A.
2) Research plan for this round is Masonry -> Priesthood -> Writing
3) We still have a MC slingshot in mind?

namliaM

Mar 04, 2007, 02:47 PM

My "beef" on not farming the corn isnt as much with not improving it, but rather with having researched Agriculture WAY before it was needed. I agree the road (which is finished for traderoute connection purposes) was/is more important. If we do want to keep roading start heading towards Cyan 2 to speed up the setttler getting there. We can get another settler in just a few turns (if we whip for 3! or 2! "dont whip the capitol") and get it going out!
Nadiros can sustain working the same hammer tiles but less food most of the time at size 5 vs 6 with the one unhappy! So not much hammers are lost IMHO but a lot is gained (a settler out 5 turns earlier!)

site C vs Site A,
7 (4 riverside +1 commerce) cottages vs 12 (non riverside) cottages
We would get 2 gpt extra for a river cottage for 15 turns.
The one extra commerce on the river makes for 8 maybe 9 vs 12 cottages?? I know which one wins (eventually) C is earlier, but A (longer term) is better. Plus it opens up the orange city to be a better city...

As for sending the settler some place, I say the gold site... AND I say A, but that was clear wasnt it?? Every turn we not settle the gold is a loss of 25gpt ! I think it is worth it delaying Cyan 2 and risking Khaaan taking it. Gives us a reason to go at him ;)

Taking out Khaaaaan in the intermediate term is only an option (IMHO) if there are other AI for us (and gandhi) to trade with. If there are no (other) AI on our patch of land it may be a bad thing to eliminate Khaaaan before the advent of caravels.
Trading is a good part of tech speed!

I dont know about Oracle... arent we getting to be a bit late for that one?

GreyFox

Mar 04, 2007, 05:56 PM

Every turn we not settle the gold is a loss of 25gpt
You a politician? This is obviously flawed (or at least fact-twisted) argument, designed to emotionally aroused voters to vote for you!
:lol:

Having said that, I would go for A as well. :)

And we really should rid ourselves of the barb city if we are not planning to keep it. Do it while there is still only warriors and not archers defending it.

I am not a great fan of Oracle myself, so I would instead go for Writing -> Literature path to make use of the marble for TGL instead.

--

Maquis

Mar 04, 2007, 06:26 PM

I would also like option A. We can work the pigs if needed, and have the corn as a main source of food.

GreyFox is right, raze the barb city sooner, rather than later...

namliaM

Mar 04, 2007, 11:29 PM

The WB test wastnt as much for you Grey, as it was for me. I didnt know what the effect would be of settling on those resources... Nada appearently...

I am no politician, but I have been getting simular comments in RL. Maybe I should switch profesion .... ;)

Well we cannot expand to much before CoL or we go bankrupt... Tho with the gems (Need IW bad!) and gold...

Inside of 6 turns we build a settler and inside of 4 a worker, I think we have production enough left over to atleast put some hammers into it (Oracle) if only for the cash refund. Once it is build (by us or otherwize) switch to another wonder (Mids or lighthouse) for the same.

If we want to get TGL asap we should/could do the hammer saving trick if anyone is up for that...

bobrath

Mar 05, 2007, 07:58 AM

Hammer saving trick?

GreyFox

Mar 05, 2007, 08:01 AM

Did you edited that, namliaM? I thought I read hammer-starving trick when I first read your post this afternoon.

Scowler

Mar 05, 2007, 10:20 AM

The Barracks at Uppsala was switched to a worker as planned, and another worker was started in the capital the following turn after the settler was completed.

On turn 2 the Annoying Barb City fell to our glorious forces and was duly razed:

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/2294/civ4warlords20070305145bp0.jpg

This gave us a very welcome 139g which I used to run deficit research for a while.

However, what also fell at the same time was the Oracle, so that ends that debate pretty quickly :p No idea who picked that up or what they took for their free tech.

As one city falls, so does another rise from the dust of the desert. Site A was colonised and renamed Haithabu (I think Site A was more catchy...). I immediately gave the city access to Nidaros's pigs to greatly speed up growth.

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/82/civ4warlords20070305145ik4.jpg

Masonry came in and research was set to Priesthood. Our trireme continued exploring but reached a dead-end thanks to Khaaaaan's cultural boundary.

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/2376/civ4warlords20070305150lt3.jpg

After the settler was completed in the capital I set the city to build a couple of chariots for fog-busting. The first of these ran across a barb axeman but of course defeated him easily. The north should now be safe from these pests.

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/392/civ4warlords20070305152we4.jpg

After the chariots I started a Temple in the capital to allow it to grow further; meanwhile the workers were scurrying to get the first of the goldmines online. As it was finished Priesthood completed and we were able to use the extra commerce to knock a turn off Writing. Annoyingly a tree grew along the route back to the capital which delayed connecting the gold for a turn, but this was a minor issue. Also, the pigs were finally connected and the corn at Nidaros was farmed, replacing some of the food lost by giving the pigs to Haithabu.

Two other events of note occurred around this time. Firstly, Gandhi adopted Hereditary Rule, and secondly, Confucianism was founded who-knows-where.

Gandhi was mostly quiet and unobtrusive during the turnset. There was one brief moment when one of his triremes ended up next to ours, but he didn't dare attack with something like 30% chance of success. I didn't dare attack either...

Khaaaaan, on the other hand, phoned us up as soon as Writing had been completed, asking for Open Borders. I considered agreeing in order to allow our trireme through for exploration, but in the end I turned him down, mainly because I didn't want him scouting our cities and discovering how poorly defended they are ... because now he has an extra reason to dislike us! Yes ... Genghis converted to Judaism! Good for Gandhi; not so good for us when we have such pitiful defenses (I did build some archers for the cities, though).

After Writing I ignored GreyFox's suggestion of heading towards Literature and chose Iron Working instead (sorry).

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/3659/civ4warlords20070305155ir2.jpg

My reasoning is that TGL is quite some way off, and in the meantime relations with Khaaaaan are deteriorating. I suspect that by the time we got Alphabet he would be unwilling to trade us anything anyway. Any iron that is revealed would be useful for deciding on future city sites. Plus of course it would be nice to break through some of that jungle...

This how our empire stands at the moment. We have 3 cities, with another settler due in 5. Khan has 7 cities.

http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/4426/civ4warlords20070305161ur6.jpg

http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/77/civ4warlords20070305161rg5.jpg

As you can see, Khaaaan appears to have concentrated on expanding laterally and back-filling; Cyan 2 is still available.

And here is what little else we know about the rest of the world:

http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/994/civ4warlords20070305161ob1.jpg

SAVE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/VQ_SG004_BC0595_01.CivWarlordsSave)

Scowler

Mar 05, 2007, 10:23 AM

Here is your Session Turn Log from 910 BC to 595 BC:

Turn 107, 895 BC: The Oracle has been built in a far away land!

Turn 108, 880 BC: VQ's Axeman (5.50) vs Barbarian's Warrior (2.00)
Turn 108, 880 BC: Combat Odds: 99.9%
Turn 108, 880 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 108, 880 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 108, 880 BC: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 108, 880 BC: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 108, 880 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 32 (68/100HP)
Turn 108, 880 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 32 (36/100HP)
Turn 108, 880 BC: VQ's Axeman is hit for 12 (88/100HP)
Turn 108, 880 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 32 (4/100HP)
Turn 108, 880 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 32 (0/100HP)
Turn 108, 880 BC: VQ's Axeman has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 108, 880 BC: VQ's Chariot (4.40) vs Barbarian's Warrior (3.00)
Turn 108, 880 BC: Combat Odds: 89.4%
Turn 108, 880 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 108, 880 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 108, 880 BC: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 108, 880 BC: VQ's Chariot is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 108, 880 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 108, 880 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 108, 880 BC: VQ's Chariot is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 108, 880 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 108, 880 BC: VQ's Chariot is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 108, 880 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 108, 880 BC: VQ's Chariot is hit for 16 (36/100HP)
Turn 108, 880 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 108, 880 BC: VQ's Chariot has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 108, 880 BC: You have captured Minoan!!!
Turn 108, 880 BC: You have destroyed the city of Minoan!!!
Turn 108, 880 BC: You have discovered Masonry!

Turn 109, 865 BC: Haithabu has been founded.

Turn 114, 790 BC: You have discovered Priesthood!

Turn 117, 745 BC: VQ's Chariot (4.40) vs Barbarian's Axeman (2.50)
Turn 117, 745 BC: Combat Odds: 96.8%
Turn 117, 745 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 117, 745 BC: (Class Attack: -100%)
Turn 117, 745 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 117, 745 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 117, 745 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 117, 745 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 117, 745 BC: VQ's Chariot has defeated Barbarian's Axeman!
Turn 117, 745 BC: Gandhi adopts Hereditary Rule!
Turn 117, 745 BC: Confucianism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 120, 700 BC: Genghis Khan converts to Judaism!

Turn 121, 685 BC: You have discovered Writing!
Turn 121, 685 BC: The Temple of Artemis has been built in a far away land!

Turn 123, 655 BC: The borders of Haithabu have expanded!

Turn 125, 625 BC: Uppsala will grow to size 3 on the next turn
Turn 125, 625 BC: A Forest has grown near Uppsala!

Turn 126, 610 BC: Uppsala has grown to size 3
Turn 126, 610 BC: Genghis Khan adopts Hereditary Rule!
Turn 126, 610 BC: A Forest has grown near Nidaros!

Turn 106 (910 BC)
Nidaros finishes: Settler

Turn 107 (895 BC)
Nidaros begins: Worker

Turn 108 (880 BC)
Axeman defeats (4.40/5): Barbarian Warrior
Chariot defeats (1.44/4): Barbarian Warrior
Captured Minoan (Barbarian)
Razed Minoan
Minoan lost
Tech learned: Masonry

Turn 109 (865 BC)
Research begun: Priesthood
Haithabu founded
Chariot promoted: Flanking I
Haithabu begins: Archer

Turn 110 (850 BC)
Uppsala finishes: Worker

Turn 111 (835 BC)
Uppsala begins: Archer
Nidaros finishes: Worker

Turn 112 (820 BC)
Nidaros begins: Chariot

Turn 113 (805 BC)
Nidaros finishes: Chariot

Turn 114 (790 BC)
Nidaros begins: Chariot
Tech learned: Priesthood
Uppsala grows: 2
Haithabu grows: 2

Turn 115 (775 BC)
Research begun: Writing
Nidaros finishes: Chariot

Turn 116 (760 BC)
Nidaros begins: Hindu Temple

Turn 117 (745 BC)
Chariot promoted: Combat I
Chariot defeats (4.00/4): Barbarian Axeman
Confucianism founded in a distant land

Turn 118 (730 BC)

Turn 119 (715 BC)

Turn 120 (700 BC)

Turn 121 (685 BC)
Tech learned: Writing

Turn 122 (670 BC)
Research begun: Iron Working
Haithabu grows: 3

Turn 123 (655 BC)
Nidaros grows: 7
Haithabu's borders expand

Turn 124 (640 BC)
Nidaros finishes: Hindu Temple
Haithabu finishes: Archer

Turn 125 (625 BC)
Nidaros begins: Settler
Haithabu begins: Granary

Turn 126 (610 BC)
Uppsala grows: 3

Turn 127 (595 BC)

bobrath

Mar 05, 2007, 10:43 AM

Looks good. What did you do with our tireme that was held up by Khaan's border? I wonder if we could have negotiated OB to get our ship past his borders and then as soon as possible drop the agreement to close the borders back down. Might have picked up a token +1 dip point.

Do we have a state religion? I don't remember! If not, then at least we aren't picking up negatives for that.

We do need to at least have a settler camped at Cyan2 since if Khaaan hasn't run out of room.... well jungle can't hold him back forever!

Cosmichail

Mar 05, 2007, 11:23 AM

Turn 26, 3220 BC: VQ converts to Hinduism!

From namliaM's autolog on the first turn so we do have that tension now.

Will take a look at the save and wait for some team input but can play later on today. More like tonight.

bobrath

Mar 05, 2007, 11:27 AM

Welp, lets hope one of our two cities picks up some Baldy based religion! Convert to Judaism and enjoy the family love.

Cosmichail

Mar 05, 2007, 11:38 AM

That's usually when you can't pick up a religion is when you need it. If Gandhi builds shrine all the better chance of us picking his religion up. Khan is already at 7 cities :eek:. If we did that we been losing money.

So what's the gameplan captain namliaM. Since we are on IW now hopefully we have it somewhere, if not we definitely should consider settling whereever it is. Since we haven't found any other AI's do we leave Khan alone. I somehow think waiting for Judaism to spread is a crapshoot for now and being of a different religion Khan might attack. Early war seems to be common in warlords so I think we need to prepare and get us an army to deal with him. Definitely will need spears in that.

bobrath

Mar 05, 2007, 11:43 AM

^^^^ Makes sense from here. We're going to have to at least hold our borders if not expand some. Looks to me like Karakorum might form a *really* nice choke point...

Cosmichail

Mar 05, 2007, 12:00 PM

Thing I have noticed too when AI expands fast like GK they don't build a lot of units and might be an easy target until he finishes his expansion. Tough to take Karakorum without cats though but we could go after the smaller cities at some point. If he's harbouring just archers at this point an army of say 5 swords 2 axes and 2 spears might be enough to take one or two of his smaller cities as long as they are defended by archers and not on a hill.

I don't see me DOW on Khan during my turn but do see the need to be prepared in case he declares. Taking Khan out might hurt us in the long run too as there are no other AI's around. So the remaining four are on another landmass teching away of course. Another high priorty of course finding them soon.

bobrath

Mar 05, 2007, 12:33 PM

Optics beeline!!!! :p

Scowler

Mar 05, 2007, 12:46 PM

Exactly! ;)

namliaM

Mar 05, 2007, 01:29 PM

I dont know about concentrating our 3 workers around Haithabu (our gold city), I think I would have kept the worker which produced in Uppsala down there to increase the yield of that town Farm the corn, quarry Marble + start cottages down there. As it is... why did we research Masonry allready while we are not getting any use out of it...
*** Sorry for dragin' up bygones... but... ***
Between my bad with the Scout, Archery, Agriculture and Masonry that is Strike 4. One thing for sure we can learn allready from this game is ... do you need this now... and if we have it use it... or??
*** again sorry but it felt right at this time ***
I dont mean to pick on anyone it is just a general observation.

I think we should get OBs with Khaaan more than before. This should help with the spreading of his religion to us... as well as allow our ship to pass and find the borders of our lands. Maybe even meet another civ, tho not likely on our landmass.
Unless offcourse Khaaan is at a chocke point blocking other civs.
Alltho I think meeting other civs is highly unlikely, it can be very usefull to us to know the size of our (Gandhi's future?) lands.

Having a few spears in the hand is better than 10 macemen in the air :lol:
I think caution is somthing good and with IW on the way we want (I think) be settling the closer and grassy jungle sooner rather than later.
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f81/9r3yf0x/sgotm02/vqsgotm4-dotmap.jpg
Moving up the red and orange rather than Cyan 2. Also the purple site is totaly smothered in Gandhi culture allready... Leave that one for gandhi I think. The green should still be ours tho maybe 1 NW of its current spot.
The orange could possibly be moved 1 south so to have no overlap with Haithabu and pick up 2 tiles down south.
Take note that the red should be either 1 south or 1 NW from its current position so not to settle on the Gems...
http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/5169/gandhionourlandcd0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Gandhi allready has a city on our peace of turf, so he is suttling with a galley. I would expect more settlers on our lands pretty soon. Making Red even more important IMHO as it secures the only spice around (OK with calandar) that we can really use for the happy.

I can actually see if the AI would prefer to settle ON the spice due to grabbing that fish, I might even consider it if we were not losing the northern gems. It may be smart to move our axe on the spice to stop that from happening...

Having us 2 objectives doesnt work... Getting TGL and beelining Optics are 2 diferent things. In light of our bigger objective, give Gandhi room to grow and eventually take us over while we relocate some place...
I think we (likely) need astronomy (or atleast it will make it easier), which is why we need to know for sure we are stuck on this rock with these 2 nutballs.

http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/9103/gptechtreehi7.th.jpg (http://img103.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gptechtreehi7.jpg)
How do we get Astro while still working with (preferably) our UU??? Bulb it I think.... ( I really must work more specialists and bulb more early on).
I am trying to load that tree, but Imageshack doesnt seem to be wanting to help me. But IIRC GS's will bulb Astro early if we steer clear of CS and Philo.
GS's are created in great abundance by TGL. So why not go for that?? IW => TGL (literature) => Astronomy.
Meanwhile we can have some fun taking out Khaaaan without our UU, when we are close(r) to optics.

So as I see it
1) Settle Red and Orange ASAP
2) Get TGL
3) Beeline Astro
4) Take out Khaaan someplace...

As for saving (not starving hammers...) that is where you try and get hammers on reserve, by whipping some building at a favorable spot like 46 - 50 hammers left in the build (or 91-100 on a bonus build like a Lighthouse) or even on just 1 hammer left (tho only 1 pop whip).
This generates some 40 overflow which on a building will keep for 50 turns.
Now if you have say a granary and a library both not yet build but both with 40 overflow waiting in the que just say 4 turns before we get TGL.
We start some unit which will finish in 2 and generate a small? overflow (5 hammers or so?).
Then que the granary, this has allready got 40 hammers overflow, add the 5 add the turn production (15? = 60)
Then que the Library, also 40 overflow allready there add the 60 and 15 production for this turn = 115 overflow into TGL.
Add again 15 hammers for a turn of production = 130 + Marble bonus = 260 hammers into TGL on the first turn.
Offcourse this means whipping and timing thing reall good...
We would not want to have the hammers on the builds starting to decay so we want to be no more (but not much less) than 50 turns from getting Literature if/when we start doing this.
So if we try to do this, keep an eye out for our research rate and the amount of beakers required... If not... well... chalk it up to nutty namliaM having a stupid trick up his sleave...

Edit: It is not my trick I read it someplace on the forum a while back.

Roster
namliaM -- +1 gmt (Actually 0 atm due to DST) > On deck *put some ideas out there*
Greyfox -- +8 gmt
Maquis -- -7 gmt
Bobrath -- -5 gmt
Healium -- +1 gmt -- Auto skip due to a Herniated disk *Good luck man* and be well
Scowler -- gmt :goodjob:
Frankcor-- -5 gmt <Lurker>
Cosmichail -- -5gmt > Fly fly away (Up that is)

bobrath

Mar 05, 2007, 01:52 PM

I'm not sure I understand why Orange should be founded after Red. (I do agree with settling Red asap if Ghandi truly has planted a city on our side of the river/lake.

So you overflow a building with the whip, but then... queue something else up at that point meaning you have a completed building that's not yet built. Do that twice, so you have the overflowed whips sitting in queue - then let the "easy" unit finish and you triple overflow into the next item. Interesting, you'll have some stacked up whip unhappy and I wonder how the trade-off of not having the "built" buildings working for you evens out... have to try it in an SP or two!

namliaM

Mar 05, 2007, 02:10 PM

Obviously the trade off is on thin ice, in particular delaying a library can be painfull in some cases or delaying a Temple keeping the pop one lower than it should be, it is a case by case study...
In this case (take our capitol) it is not yet making that much money and the trade of ensuring TGL vs losing 3 beakers/turn for 40 turns (or somesort like that) is very well worth it I think.

There is one pittfall you have to avoid. You cannot overflow more hammers than the building or unit is worth. i.e. with a Library you cannot overflow more than 135 hammers. So if it looks like you will acumilate more you have to do it in stages...
First do one turn of TGL someplace to fix the overflow build up to that point on TGL then que the lib and transfer that overflow as well....

Re a city on our side, yes most definatly, just look at those cultural borders... there just HAS to be a city there, no otherway possible...
Re: Orange city, it closes off our land much like Cyan 2 does but closer to home together with Cyan 1 and red.

bobrath

Mar 05, 2007, 02:56 PM

Re: Orange site.

If its just about closing off our borders, then cyan2 is still a superior option - it doesn't require jungle to be chopped down to be viable right away and founding Cyan2 will seal that border (since Cyan1 has popped its borders out).

Red will seal us "enough" with Ghandi and will suck up our jungle chopping (and escorted) workers that will be needed to get orange running as well.

Yes, Cyan2 has greater maintenance, but it can work viable gpt generating tiles right away. At least we have Henge which ensures pops in 15 turns!

Re: ghandi settling on our side. Isn't it also possible that he founded the city N - NE of your dot and we're just seeing "mature" borders?

Cosmichail

Mar 05, 2007, 06:26 PM

Interesting stuff about the trick. I too have to try that in SP game and get a better understanding of it. namliaM could you please provide an example of it on a turn by turn basis so I can understand better how the overflow is accumulated. (maybe you did already but it won't sink in)

Might play later tonight or tomorrow early depending on RL. I like getting the red site settled for those gems. It will get our commerce up and eventually great city for baldy. That does look like he's settled on our side.

GreyFox

Mar 05, 2007, 07:06 PM

Same comments as namliam on the worker. They should really spread out. At least one cottage should be built in Nidaros. In Uppsala, the marble should be quarried (and maybe connected if we want the TGL), the corn should be farmed, and farms /cottages should be established there. There is zero improvement in Upppsala ... I thought the purpose of completing the worker there is to improve that city!

Since Khan has horses, Cyan #2 is not that crucial. Re: bob's comment on working tiles right away, the settler is still 5 turns from finishing, by the time it reach Red or Orange, IW will be in, so that is not a valid argument.

We have researched writing, why is there no library built in Nidaros? (Note: library is needed to enable TGL, so it must be used as the first completing built for hammer-storing -- I think storing was the original term coined by the person who first wrote abt the rick, not saving -- if people are inclined to use it. Personally, I would complete the library ASAP .. we need it badly in the capitol, and Literature still requires Alphabet).

Pray for iron, else we cannot possibly take Karakorum without cat support.

I'll advise people forget abt the game's objective right now ... It really do us no good if Gandhi got strong prior to us ... we won't survive to see him go to the stars. We need block off his further encroachment into our area, and if necessary capture his city on our land.

--

namliaM

Mar 06, 2007, 12:31 AM

Re: Orange site.
I know Cyan 2 is superior to Orange, but I dont think it is realistic to get all that without interferance from either Khaaan or Gandhi. I simply thing both Orange and red are in their own right better cities than Cyan 2 is/will be. Cyan 2 needs more food, where the other 2 can just be cottaged right up.

Re: ghandi settling on our side. Isn't it also possible that he founded the city N - NE of your dot and we're just seeing "mature" borders?Borders dont mature over 2 tiles if going over water. Therefor the border would not be able to be there if there wasnt a city there...
It appears Bob is right... there is also 3rd level culture due north of Haithabu.
This means 2 things imho. 1) That city must be Judist holy 2) Gandhi no have no city on our lands but will have soon (I think)

the settler is still 5 turns from finishing
No it isnt, it is one turn from finishing :whipped: ;) and I do think we want it out ASAP to get that red or brown spot (more later)

Re the need for a lib in Nadiros. It is producing 12 beakers at 80% science, which is a full 3 beakers. We dont need it that hard I dont think. Any city (i.e. Settler) will soon be worth the same 3 beakers as the library (OK at the cost of upkeep but also with unit support and higher growing possibility than the Lib)
We can use the lib for the Hammer storing/saving trick.

Also about fogbusting, we are paying 2gpt supply upkeep on those. With our total income at 30 at the moment (lets assume 40 soon) that is 5% and/or just about the lib in Nadiros. I would consider retreating our busters to within borders. Or atleast 2 that are costing us money!
The chariot up north and the chariot West of Haitabu are having a look over lands that gandhi is also looking out on.
The nothern chariot can be moved to the hill east if it with the forrest on it. This way the chariot there that is just outside our borders can move in and save 1gpt right there.
The chariot due NW of Uppsala goes 1 north and the warrior north of there goes into our borders again saving the 1 gpt.
This is what I mean for he north:
http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/5461/moves1gy5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Also a new prososal for dotting... We currently have the green and purple "planned", how about moving the green to hollow green?
Also we can add the blue one up north if/when we desire. Alternatively we can take these 2 coastal average cities (I think we dont want that purple one due to Gandhi intrusive culture) and turn them into one monster on the white dot or even move it inland one tile to make it (another) inland city but with monsterous capacity! (18 cottages) on the white question mark.

For the south:
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/9158/moves2yy7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
As for the dots. Red is now where it should be and Orange moved one south, this also puts it on the river.
A further suggestion is to replace Red by Brown and moving the Orange one west to the Orange Circle.

About workers... I think we need more anyway... lets keep the 3 workers that are near Haibatu there and simply produce a worker in Uppsala and que that Archer! it will cost us GPT in upkeep and with one turn left will be easy to get in an emergiancy (should Khaaan DoW us). The hammers will keep for 10 turns, while a worker is 15 turns. BUT it is/should be whippable after 46/6 = 8 turns, well within the 10 turn limit.
1) It gets the worker out ASAP 2) It saves some coin on Upkeep.

OBs with Khaaan will not only allow our Trireme to get thru, but also rack up a positive "our open borders bring us closer" point making him just a little less likely to DoW I think.

Scowler

Mar 06, 2007, 03:54 AM

OBs with Khaaan will not only allow our Trireme to get thru, but also rack up a positive "our open borders bring us closer" point making him just a little less likely to DoW I think.

A good point, but I suspect that by the time we get a positive for OB we will also have picked up another minus due to religion, so while things will be no worse they will also be no better.

However, I agree that getting the Trireme out west is important - as is raising the likelihood of having Judaism spread to us. On the other hand, Khan is still quite capable of declaring if he feels it is in his interest, regardless of OB, being Pleased, or sharing a religion, As I said before, my original wariness of OB was governed by the possibility of him scouting our land and discovering our general weakness and potential targets for attack; Uppsala is still very exposed. In a recent private game something similar happened: stuck on a landmass with him and Catherine, we were all the same religion with open borders and supposedly one happy family, but then he went and declared because one of my cities was a little too exposed next to his borders. So after that I am still erring on the side of caution...

On that note, regarding Uppsala, I didn't work the corn there because it was right next to Khan's borders and I didn't have any spare military to act as escort. I was too afraid that he might come out of the fog with a chariot and use the worker as an opportunity for DOW. If that had happened we might well have lost Uppsala. In retrospect, I could and should have farmed the grass N of the city, but I made the decision that it would be better to focus on getting resources online/connected ASAP in the north as the cities there had better potential (and of course cost less for maintenance when growing). As it happens, I did put a couple of turns into the Marble, but stopped when I saw that it would be of little use during my turnset (Oracle fallen).

namliaM

Mar 06, 2007, 04:15 AM

getting the Trireme out west is important
I think getting the trireme ANYWHERE will help

discovering our general weakness and potential targets for attack
I think just looking at the power graph will tell him the same... I think you put a little to much merrit into the AI at the point where they scout first prior to attack.
Uppsala is exposed, that atleast is a big fact. Having the surrounding ground improved tho (even if at a risk) will help in paying for its maintenance.

I hope Scowler you didnt feel the need to explain/defend yourself, my (or any comments for that matter I am sure) were not meant to be finger pointing or blaiming.

No comments what so ever tho Scowler on the things I wrote?

Edit: IIRC it takes 2 scientists to bulb Astronomy, 300 gp points are needed to spawn 2nd GP after the priest and 450 for the 3rd. 750 / (6 + 4) = 75 turns after completing TGL in Nadiros we will have 2 more GPs with a 25% of beeing a priest, shorter and lower odds of a priest if we add 1 or 2 scientists ourselves.
In order for it to be eligable for bulbing we need:
- Not have CS
- Researched Mathmatics
- Researched Optics (both prereq and lower earlier bulbing)
- Researched Philo (or not be able to, not having Meditation)

GreyFox

Mar 06, 2007, 07:03 AM

I disagree with any whip on the capitol. Anycase, even if settler were to start off now, IW will be done around the same time the city is settled, so it makes no difference to my argument.

I still think orange dot should stay where it is and get the corn back. Karakorum may be a better site for the GP-Farm, but that is moot as long a sit is flying Khan's banner.

==

bobrath

Mar 06, 2007, 08:18 AM

Wasn't sure about timing of settler and IW. I'll put down my "up with Cyan2" banner for a while.

As far as keeping Khaaaan from scouting us by not giving OB... He can walk through almost our entire land without ever crossing a border. We're really not closed off to scouting - at least until we found 1-2 more cities. I'd suggest getting the OB simply out of necessity for our navy not having to sail all the way back through Ghandi's seas.

I don't like moving red to brown. I do notice that your red is one S of where we had originally discussed and I'm fine with that.

I would agree that white is a superior city to blue/green, but lets remember that we are Ragnar so moving off the coast may not be a good choice (so white question mark is the lesser choice imo).

Good work on adjusting our fog busters to save some cash. We do need to remember that AI cultural borders bust fog as well.

namliaM

Mar 06, 2007, 11:44 AM

I think Grey also intended it there. On its original spot it was ON gems, which is never a great place. I think getting Red/brown is much more important than Cyan 2 at this time, in particular with the timing of IW we can mine the Gems and get an extra happy in the process :)
While Cyan 2 doesnt really add anything but block Khaaaan and get us high maintenance (not that red would be much lower.

I am FOR whipping the capitol to get the settler out faster. Also the capitol will soon grow back and it is working unimproved tiles (IIRC).

Re moving Orange down or not.... Haithabu (our gold city) needs the Corn to work the gold, I dont think there will be a real place where we can steal the corn longterm. Therefor the overlap (in the long term) is going to hurt us/Gandhi (if he ever comes to capture some of our cities).

Orange in its current spot has 3 sugars (= +6 food once improved) so it can still sustain the 2 scientist we can/want to put up there. If we want to run more specialists we have to adopt Caste system, the Orange city will only produce stuff by the :whipped: whipping a Market into place is expensive.
Further if we succeed in getting TGL into Nadiros we will be getting (atleast) 10 GPP in that city, unless we run Caste it will never catch up and I dont think there is much use in having 2 GPP "farms" or running Caste just for 1 city.

Brown and Hollow Orange just seem to fit better without overlap, where red and orange have 2 tiles and Yellow and Orange have one too. Moving Orange up IMHO does nothing but create more overlap since we cannot borrow/steal the corn...

What is the deal with having to have coastal cities?? I dont mind taking the white dot in favour of the question mark. But why? So we can build +1 movement ships?

Cosmichail

Mar 06, 2007, 01:12 PM

I am glad I haven't played yet and have to admit confused as to where to settle. After reading this a few times and looking at the game I believe that the red spot is in our best interest for the happy resources there and commerce. It has spices/gems/sugar and once we get calender should prove to be a great commerce/food city.

Normally I DO not like to whip but since this spot is prime I believe that in this case we should.

20 turns I take it and focus on getting more workers/OB with Khan for more scouting and after iron working what do we want to research?

Now I am thinking maybe we should wait for IW to see where the iron is and then decide where to settle. ARGH.......indecision is worse that doing something so I'll either pause the game if iron is located far away and discuss but if already in cultural borders will carry on with the same plan.

I think Ragnar's need for coastal cities is in the trade routes more than anything. Inner cities tend to have less lucrative trade route than coastal cities. Of course at this point not important unless we get can get a better relationship with Khan although even OB will give us better trade routes.

EG: recent SP game my inland capitol had trade routes of like +3 my coastal city had trade routes of +10. (3 at the time). Much better commerce available to coastal cities thru trade routes.

Cosmichail

Mar 06, 2007, 02:43 PM

Viking lander launches Indians into space

That’s what I like about a first turn there really isn’t that much to do unlike the last turn where one turn takes an hour. I wanted to settle whether or not Gandhi has indeed settled on our landmass. No he hasn’t and those are mature borders as pointed out by our SG expert Bob the Great One. (wooohoooo) It’s Bombay the holy city.

Here’s proof (all we had to do was move that chariot)

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g240/cosmichail/Civ4ScreenShot0454-1.jpg

I notice too that Haithabu will grow so get those workers onto mining all of the gold. The more commerce the better. After looking at the whip in capitol I think 3 pop is too much and decide to let it build on its own. Mainly because the IW won’t be finished for a bit too.

We make this deal with Genghis Khan so we can scout in the south with Trireme.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g240/cosmichail/Civ4ScreenShot0455-1.jpg

From what I’ve seen so far of his troops he running around with archers and chariots. I typically find AI in the beginning is weak as they spend all their time spawning much like we are doing. (LOL) (Plus we got another buck in trade out of it)

We get somewhat south and find this little island. Maybe our future hideout. Hee hee

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g240/cosmichail/Civ4ScreenShot0456-1.jpg

Anyone for getting the TGL. (lighthouse) well kiss it goodbye it was built. I don’ think we should waste time with wonders in this game. The Great lib may be a good approach to improving our science but how likely are we in getting it. I think too we need to go for mathematics next but alphabet did cross my mind.

490 BC

We discover the art of iron working. The settler was on his way to the gem site already so I let him continue and decided we could build another settler for the iron site which is one tile north of our cultural borders.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g240/cosmichail/Civ4ScreenShot0459-1.jpg

This is where the iron is so we need to settle that white spot before anything else.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g240/cosmichail/Civ4ScreenShot0460-1.jpg

Ghengis Khan already on the rampage……well we knew it would happen he’s already got an army coming at us…..help, help what to do (LOL)

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g240/cosmichail/Civ4ScreenShot0461-1.jpg

We scout out GK’s lands and see that only one city is Judaist. He also picked up our religion in the last turn so as we all know him staying at eating kosher food isn’t a sure thing.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g240/cosmichail/Civ4ScreenShot0462-1.jpg

End turn synopsis.

Haithabu grew twice during my turn and is working all of the gold.
Birka was settled on red spot and working gems now
Nidaros finished a settler (Birka) built a granary and whipped a settler for overflow into a Trireme which is done in next turn. The second settler whip was done with 1 pop to grow and used only one pop so no pop loss and overflow of some 25 hammers.
Uppsala (city names sounds like a mistake) built a worker and is now farming the corn
Settler is hiding under chariot in northern site ready to claim iron.

Finances:

We dropped to 60% for a few turns but after working gold/gems we are back at 70% with a buck to spare. I say we settle that iron site asap close to capitol so main low.

Research:

We finished IW and started Math which only has two turns left on it. I’d say we get construction and go get that fat farm and some of that other prime fat farm land. So getting cats soon would be beneficial. We can make up for trade loss thru running some merchants I’m sure but after having a close look at Karakorum my mind goes:
“gimme, gimme, gimme”. You could forget GP farm even and cottage the crap out of that and then see the money fly. Although I agree we need a GP farm to lightbulb astro and other necessary techs.

After construction I think we then go take a chance on alpha/lit but I want lit more so for our first GG. Nidaros although capitol is building at this point very fast. (settler in 7 turns like wow this early) A good place for HE if you ask me. Haithabu is also not bad production but Uppsala/Birka isn’t. Birka definitely will have a lot of commerce and food. EDIT: One last thing I noticed and it worried me a bit. Gandhi is running around with a galley and I though first he was going to make a landing at Hathabu (whatever) but he proceeded south with his galley. He might be heading for our future hideout. Not much we can do if he does but just be aware he does have a galley and can land on our landmass if he wants to.

HOF autolog

Uppsala finishes: Archer

Turn 128 (580 BC)
Uppsala begins: Worker

Turn 129 (565 BC)

Turn 130 (550 BC)
Haithabu grows: 4

Turn 131 (535 BC)
Nidaros finishes: Settler

Turn 132 (520 BC)
Nidaros begins: Granary

Turn 133 (505 BC)
Tech learned: Iron Working

Turn 134 (490 BC)
Research begun: Mathematics

Turn 135 (475 BC)

Turn 136 (460 BC)
Birka founded
Birka begins: Library
Nidaros finishes: Granary

Turn 137 (445 BC)
Nidaros begins: Archer

Turn 138 (430 BC)
Nidaros finishes: Archer
Haithabu grows: 5

Turn 139 (415 BC)
Nidaros begins: Settler
Hinduism has spread: Haithabu

Turn 140 (400 BC)

Turn 141 (385 BC)

Turn 142 (370 BC)
Uppsala finishes: Worker
Haithabu finishes: Granary

Turn 143 (355 BC)
Uppsala begins: Granary
Haithabu begins: Worker
Nidaros begins: Trireme

Turn 144 (340 BC)
Nidaros begins: Trireme
Nidaros finishes: Settler

Turn 145 (325 BC)
Nidaros grows: 7

Turn 146 (310 BC)
Hinduism has spread: Old Sarai (Mongolian Empire)

Turn 147 (295 BC)

CFC autolog

Here is your Session Turn Log from 595 BC to 295 BC:

Turn 131, 535 BC: The Great Lighthouse has been built in a far away land!

Turn 133, 505 BC: You have discovered Iron Working!

Turn 136, 460 BC: Birka has been founded.

Turn 138, 430 BC: Zu Chongzhi (Great Scientist) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 139, 415 BC: Hinduism has spread in Haithabu.

Turn 143, 355 BC: Francis Bacon (Great Scientist) has been born in Delhi (Gandhi)!

Turn 144, 340 BC: You have trained a Settler in Nidaros. Work has now begun on a Trireme.

Turn 145, 325 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Birka!
Turn 145, 325 BC: Nidaros has grown to size 7
Turn 145, 325 BC: Marie Curie (Great Scientist) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 146, 310 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Birka!
Turn 146, 310 BC: Hinduism has spread in Old Sarai.

Turn 147, 295 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Birka!

The Viking Lander (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/VQ_SG004_BC0295_01.CivWarlordsSave)

Cosmichail

Mar 06, 2007, 03:02 PM

Second thought on Great Library.... With marble and Nidaros we could build it very fast. Our research has improved a lot since added commerce so even bypassing construction for now to get Lit. Chancey as I'd prefer military but benefits of two scientists for popping GS's is great. Only problem is though the wonder would be much better in GP farm city and I think taking Karakorum is just too far off.

EDIT: namliaM I just noticed that Nidaros is working forest when it should be working lake. Could you please change that on your turn.

2nd EDIT: I thought of one other thing I noticed. Uppsala is going to loose the corn if we don't get more culture there. We are bordered on Karakorum which at the moment is pumping out more culture but I think getting hinduism to Uppsala may keep us at an even level.

GreyFox

Mar 06, 2007, 11:14 PM

If Gandhi is showing off a galley, perhaps the appropriate thing for us to do is to sink it with a trireme. Afterall, our blood pact did hold us to the obligation of teaching him warfare.

I wouldn't worry abt the corn at uppsala ... afterall, it is closer to Uppsala, there is a free monument there, and with a spread of religion Uppsala should hold off Karakorum's culture fight.

I am not too sure whether we should continue with construction or switch to Alpha/Lit. I am inclined to continue with construction.

I am still upset abt the lack of a library in Nidaros though. Why granary? It is at its pop limit. Library at capitol is a must because of the 8 free commerce.

[Disclaimer: I haven't looked at the save yet]

namliaM

Mar 06, 2007, 11:41 PM

Uppsala should have whipped the worker ASAP, handbuilding it while working undeveloped tiles is a waste of time IMHO.
Birka, why have the 3 workers on the spice? it is going to be a while before we work that tile, we are going to be working the Rivers first. Also the farm.... In a few turns Birka will pop its borderd, picking up the sugar. Farming that would be better as it will (eventualy) get a plantation for the same effect. I would have put a cottage on that riverside...
Why is Haithabu building a worker? It should IMHO be growing and getting a lib.
I would have gone with a galley from Nadiros, which we could try to swing south of Khaan to try and get that Village... Who knows a free tech?

Why didnt you move our northern fogbusters? Could have saved us some $$$.

Do we or do we not want to go for TGL? If we can get to Math we can chop those forrest very will too. Worth 60 hammers each, with getting some hammer overflow going (maybe a 50? Which translates into 100 with marble) add 4 forests thats 340 allready out of the 525 needed inside of say 4 turns or so. Adding 4 turns of production = 200 hammers (marble bonus!) and its there. I think we should take a shot if we can build TGL in just 4!!!! Turns ???
With our current research it will take approx 2 (Math) + 13 (Alpha) + 11 (Lit) = 26 turns to get at the point where we can start TGL. So by the end of Fox' set we should/could have TGL. While in 12 we get the priest.

Re: Losing the corn, that may happen if we dont get our culture up. Karakorum tho is on the 2rd expansion allready and needs to get a lot of culture before expanding to 3 tho it is hard to guestimate when that will happen. We have some 87 turns to our second which is to long I think, getting a library and/or religion and/or temple in there will really help that situation.

With 4 workers (and 1 on the way) we have 5 cities (soon) we are low on workers IMHO with so much (jungle) chopping ahead of us, I hope to rectify that...

We are 12 turns from the Priest, do we want to use it to get the shrine (and net 3gpt) or settle it (and net 2 hammers/5gpt) and gamble on getting a later one to make the shrine?

Gandhi is really burning rubber on research, he has both Alphabet and Math allready.

Roster
namliaM -- +1 gmt (Actually 0 atm due to DST) > Got it but wait for input
Greyfox -- +8 gmt > On deck
Maquis -- -7 gmt
Bobrath -- -5 gmt
Healium -- +1 gmt -- Auto skip due to a Herniated disk *Good luck man* and be well
Scowler -- gmt
Frankcor-- -5 gmt <Lurker>
Cosmichail -- -5gmt > Upped science quite a bit

Edit:
The lib would currently bring in 3 free beakers in Nadiros, I think the granary is the right choice as we are currently -2 on the pop limit, it will help with the growing a lot...

Cosmichail

Mar 07, 2007, 01:17 AM

I am still upset abt the lack of a library in Nidaros though. Why granary? It is at its pop limit. Library at capitol is a must because of the 8 free commerce.

Sheeez why bother with lib for so little beakers right now. Great lib is far away so lots of time for building library. Granary seemed for me the way to go at the moment.

@namliaM

Why didnt you move our northern fogbusters? Could have saved us some $$$

We will be settling there shortly in the north (settler is almost at site to settle one tile away). I wanted to make sure he is protected and once he settles they will cost us nothing again.

As to the farm at Birka was only temporary so that when it did pop borders we could mine the gems and work it right away and get the commerce. We couldn't do anything with the sugar right then and once borders expands we can put cottages on sugar until calender is in. The workers are sitting on the spices just to chop the jungle as I want to keep them near Birka as borders will pop very soon and we can then mine the gems and get another commerce boost. (putting cottages on the sugar is awesome btw I do it all the time and quite often if I have more than one source leave the cottage - just like FP 3food)

As to why Haithabu is building worker is confusing at best. :confused: One statement says we badly need workers but then you complain???? Where else could I build it fast except for Nidaros which just built granary/two settlers and a Trireme. You say galley I say tomato. Meaning how many times we don't protect our resources and galleys aren't meant for that. We need to protect our resources if Gandhi is running around with a galley and a Trireme too. PS galley takes only a few turns in Nidaros so it's never that far away. Neither for the lib as it can be built in 8 turns.

As to whipping Uppsala I felt it not necessary with so few pop in there. Only 3 pop in the city and no granary. Not ideal for whipping I think but I could be wrong.

There is a Trireme on the way back from GK's lands to have more of a look at the island of Dr. Moreau. Somehow my instincts tell me Gandhi is heading there. As to sinking his galley well Greyfox when I have a magic wand and can get a ship right there then I'll do it. For now our Trireme was quite far away.

I too thought of the hut and thought maybe a tech but who knows you may even get barb warriors. A lot of effort to find out if you ask me.

We have expressed our whys and wherefores (Greyfox and namliaM) are you are aware that during my turnset our commerce increased by 24 base commerce which helped our science a lot. So that buck you are whining about for the fogbusters was well covered by that. (I see the acknowledgement in the roster)

At the end of my turnset I thought too better a lib in Haithabu but we do need workers and Nidaros was busy. Nidaros should build one too and that will give us six which is enough for now. We do have a lot and a lot of jungle to work so I felt a worker was more important than lib at the moment. Uppsala needs a lot of work and at least 3 workers to gets things moving there. Cities can only build one thing at a time and we only have four right now. Birka won't be building much so the only real production cities are Haithabu and Nidaros. Uppsala will improve over time especially with lumbermill but I am inclined to do a lot of chopping there and elsewhere too. We have math now so chops are much better now. (well only 2 turns away)

I knew when you saw the workers on the spices you would wonder. I thought ok chop the jungle and by then borders pop and mine the gems. City would grow and farm would help to keep working gems until more food was available. Yes the workers could move elsewhere and do something better but by the time they got to another site the borders would pop. I only had one thing in mind. COMMERCE..... Second gem site would add another 7 or 8 gold base commerce so that's my brainstorm on that. With so few roads around the workers take long to get from one point to another so leaving them there until borders pop seemed logical. And since that was the case I thought chopping the jungle would give them something to do.

Also I do believe our pop limit is better now at Nidaros with gems online. Our research has vastly improved with working 3 gold/1 gem mine. Cottage up the rest of Birka and we have a pretty strong commerce center. The one thing that I thought I goofed on was starting a lib in Birka but no one says a thing. mmmmmm (again too much into the detail and not the big picture):confused:

I forgot we had SH so that's why I thought lib. I was going to change it but thought well we can change that and save the hammers invested for 50 turns so no biggie. It won't build much else right now at any speed.:p

I did realize once I settled Birka that there's fish south of that city. Why did we not settle on the spices and get that fish. I only followed the dotmap but I hate to see a fish site go wasted especially since we need it too. Sure there is lots of food but I am thinking about the overall health of our empire. I DO realize second gems not in reach of city then but I JUST HATE wasting a resource like that. I am no dotmap expert and never make them but could we not have organized it that we could use fish and gems to another site maybe. With all that food in the area it could easily have supported two cities. Now fish never gets worked only if we get second border pop for health.

GreyFox

Mar 07, 2007, 02:01 AM

Sheeez why bother with lib for so little beakers right now
25% is 25% no matter now or 2050AD.

I was under the impression that the capitol is at happy limit hence I find the granary odd. As I said, I hadn't look at the save.

BTW, I may have been somewhat measly with my compliments when I was nitpicking for the tiny flaw in an otherwise perfect play, but it was a good progress.

--

namliaM

Mar 07, 2007, 02:29 AM

Meaning how many times we don't protect our resources and galleys aren't meant for that. We need to protect our resources if Gandhi is running around with a galley and a Trireme too. You are right I didnt think of that... and a galley is only 5 turns... so *Bleh* on me...

Birka and the spice, we can chop outside the borders... IIRC Birka is 4 turns from border pop, instead of the spice we could chop the river(s)/Sugar(s)/Gem tiles to "kill time" before we can mine the gems. Tho I have an uneasy feeling about those 3 workers in the open so close to a (potential) landing of Gandhi *scratches back*
I am also not a fan of stacking workers but that is a personal thing as I am allways affraid of wasting worker turns. That spice tile will need a road (eventually) so before leaving that tile we may just as well build a road (1 turn with 3 workers IIRC), keeping the workers near/in Birka was the thing to do... Running them around from city to city is not a good thing (i.e. wasting worker turns!)
Tho I am still worried about stacking them and working 3 workers in 1 city, generaly I try to do 1 worker to a city, but... With 3 workers we do get the mines that much earlier => the commerce requires it I guess and it is something I must try to do more.....

The lib in Birka is not a big goof in my book, as we have the 2 gems there getting us instand 16 commerce. The question is ... would a granary help the growing to the point where it helps more than a library?

As to whipping Uppsala I *think* whipping away 1 pop in a city that is working unimproved tiles is allways worth it. Getting that corn 7 turns earlier makes up the lost growth I *think* ...

I didnt see any galley of Gandhi's, if he is heading south, maybe he is heading to Cyan 2 or there abouts... And if he is heading a settler south in galley I dont think it is smart to sink it. Let him settle .... makes him stronger and we have 3 more cities to settle too....

About the hut... well no barbs if you use a scout...

We have expressed our whys and wherefores (Greyfox and namliaM) are you are aware that during my turnset our commerce increased by 24 base commerce which helped our science a lot. So that buck you are whining about for the fogbusters was well covered by that. (I see the acknowledgement in the roster) Yes I definatly noticed (see acknowledgement ;) )... but as ussual a magnifying glass is put on the things that look strange instead of the positives.
And for atleast 1 thing you changed my mind, I would have build a Galley (probably) where you started a Trireme. My galley would have been a mistake I think... cause we do need those nets in Nadiros and cannot allow them to be pillaged.

Uppsala will/does need quite some work. Priorities IMHO corn and Marble, in the mean while it will grow like a weed due to the corn, any surplus population can be used to get us some axemen to up our power rating, me thinks. Or the surplus food can (fast) produced some worker or settler.

Getting math for the chopping is definatly nice.... In particular when chopping TGL with marble :)

I did realize once I settled Birka that there's fish south of that city. I think I made specific meantion of the fish at some point
Appearently I planned to, but looking back at my last dotty it is not there and the fish are not really visible either. Hmz... must me more clear in the future....., but the fish is also close to Gandhi and on an ocean tile (no defence bonus IIRC). I was thinking we could get it, but it is at to high a risk of pillaging. Where it is now, it gets more land tiles = more cottages + I dont think with all that Gandhi culture allready around up north of Birka we could *risk* another city there AND thus the choice comes down to missing the fish or the Gems, I would rather have the Gems right now for the commerce...

bobrath

Mar 07, 2007, 08:10 AM

Great work Cosmic, I always like seeing a turn where the commerce is brought back to a powerful level. :goodjob:

Regarding one worker for each city: I read in some post somewhere (can't recall atm) - which is better, to have 3 tiles 1/3rd of the way improved or 1 tile totally improved and 2 untouched? Worker gangs (properly managed and grouped) are a more efficient use of our resources.

Cosmichail

Mar 07, 2007, 02:29 PM

Thanks Bob and I always stack workers. I hate using one worker and it takes like nine turns. Three workers bring that down to 3 so I tend to stack them now if I can.

@namliaM - You're right should have chopped the gems but those workers moved there on the last turn. I had in mind too putting a cottage there until we got calender but agree chopping mine/sugar would have been better. As to the danger of them getting caught I agree but they moved on last turn so perhaps a chariot can guard them. Stacking does have a disadvantage in that if you get caught you loose all those workers. Gandhi's galley was at first near Haithabu then I saw it near Birka and it disappeared. Then he showed up with a Trireme.

@Greyfox - sorry I did have that lib in mind for Nidaros but when I saw it didn't have a granary I thought better build that. It's a personal thing where I tend to forget about getting them built sometimes so I thought better to have it now then later. Plan was to start lib after granary but then the iron showed up north of us so I thought better have a settler handy since I didn't want to divert the first settler from that prime site. Haithabu and Birka without cottages is definitely offering us the needed commerce. That site A turned out much better than I thought and will be keeping our science going for a while.

Looking forward to your turnset namliaM......I agree get some axes for our neighbour. Wouldn't be surprised if he flips religion if he gets another hindu one especially if it's capitol.

Another thing about worker stacking that I do:

Let's you have five workers together stacked and they build a road (example). They build it immediately and the stack has two workers that are still movable. I hit that same grouping button and the workers that didn't work group and can be moved to work something else. No waste then. Late game I may have 8 or 9 workers stacked and use that method to keep them going.

As to a culture flip on the corn that too is far off but I just thought watching that might be good since that is Uppsala's only food source right now. Since we are going on the warpath I am not too worried about it now. Just curious I often notice that tiles will show percentages and at what percentage does the tile loose to the competition. (less than 50%?) Karakorum visibly is only producing 2 culture no religion there. But he could have built lib which brings that up to 4 so that's 4x our culture there now of 1.

namliaM

Mar 07, 2007, 02:46 PM

Turnset done, report tomorrow :)

Oh I do stack workers but DO NOT group them and move them 1 by 1 this way I can be sure no turns are lost.

bobrath

Mar 07, 2007, 02:58 PM

Just curious I often notice that tiles will show percentages and at what percentage does the tile loose to the competition. (less than 50%?)

You are correct, the breakover for control is at 50%. Its not entirely dependent upon border expansion since you can actually watch the percentage move during your turns. Its like a war between slugs riding turtles in quicksand (in slow motion) :lol:

bobrath

Mar 07, 2007, 02:59 PM

Turnset done, report tomorrow :)

Tomorrow?!?!?!? :mad:

Not even a little teaser of "I screwed it all up" or "Khaan.... is our master now." ;)

Cosmichail

Mar 07, 2007, 07:11 PM

Can't wait.

I looked at our power graph now and does my old eyes see that right we jumped up quite a bit in power. We are the purple guys and looked at the culture too like wow man. It would be really cool to get a second religion but someone out there is teching fast.

namliaM did mention about the a Great Priest being born in 12 turns. I hope we used him for a shrine as we don't need the hammers in Nidaros. Be interested to see what we have done with him. The 2h5g is great and Haithabu has a base commerce of something like 27. That's the best commerce we have right now so settling him in Haithabu is more profitable and it could use a few more hammers. If we get that far a great place for bank/wall street. Nidaros is heroic epic material.

frankcor

Mar 07, 2007, 09:29 PM

Was that a hut on that island? :) :)

bobrath

Mar 07, 2007, 09:40 PM

that is indeed a hut... now what did the mysterious mr namliam do with it?

namliaM

Mar 08, 2007, 12:21 AM

I dont know what powergraph you looked at Cosmic, but it wasnt including my set's powergraph as I hadnt even uploaded the save yet....

When I start my turnset, I change some builds...
Birka goes Granary (still building it but to be whipped for 1 pop I think at size 3 with half the foodbar filled (thats 13 food in))
Uppsala goes Worker, was whipped during my set for 1 pop. I was temped to whip again for 1 pop to get another worker, but desided not to....
Nadiros starts a galley to sail around Khaaan to get the GH. I notice later in the turnset, I forget to MM it to the lake.
Please take note of Nadiros as the governor is putting workers on the Forrest plains hill or forrest instead of the lake! *grrrr*

I put science to 100% for 1 turn to get Math in that same turn. Next up Alpha and Literature.
Settle Bjorgvin on the white dot, it start a Granary. On my last turn it grows to size 2 and I started a worker. I think we can build a worker there and whip for 1 pop in a few turns for a worker up north to get those sheep and corn up and running.
This must be putting some hurt into Khaaan...
http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/6562/khaaanhurtsch0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

This is intresting
http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/5172/greatestvt2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
There are 2 civs even smaller than Gandhi is??? *Geez*
On the other hand there are 3 civs greater than us...

Like I said, I whipped the worker in Uppsala
http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/7518/whipworkerez1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Khaaan comes to me and offers Gems for Wine... We have health to spare and I dont feel much like helping his Happy cap so I change the Gems to Pigs and we get the wines...
http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/9664/khaaantradeby3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I whip the library in Nadiros
http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/649/whipnadiroslibqq0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
to get some overflow (tried to max out but made a mistake in MM :( ), I deque-ed the lib and started an archer for Bjorgvin. Next we should try to que some units (another trireme?? or an axe).

As Gandhi gets an early artist (Music??!!) Khaaan desides to increase the size of the bullseye on Karakorum... after Literature, defenatly we need Construction !
http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/6319/khaaantargetli8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/8351/khaaanpolicedc1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
As we complete the shrine, more so for the religion spread than the money. Cause there is only 3 cities with our religion... Khaaan revolts to police state.... *grmbl* I dont like the looks of this...

The closing screenies
http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/3131/closingscreeniesju1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Bjorgvin I told above allready my plan, whip the worker for 1 pop. Feel free to veto it if you feel like it. Be advised the Granary it started to grow to size 2 is still in the que!
I build a galley in Nadiros and a Scout in Uppsala, both are to meet up and go grab that GH that is still laying around. ALSO very IMPORTANT I forget to make a screeny of it... Just west of Tabriz there are (red) borders! We cannot meet that civ yet as there is a tile of ocean there. But if either that city or tabriz expands its borders.... I suggest we keep our ships in that area....

Gandhi has some ships near Bjorgvin, we have a Trireme up there... and on the land we have 2 Chariots, but thats it... I hope thats a settler in there and also hope the trireme is good enough to hold them off. Atleast we have the advantage of the 3 tile movement.

Finaly Nadiros, I have been chopping those forrests. We have 8 turns before Lit comes in, Marble is just about to be up and running in 4 or so turns (near perfect timing?). If we can que some units: Axe => Worker/Trireme => Library (39 + 15 prod) we will get some 60 or even more overflow into TGL first turn.
60*2 = 120
+ 4 forrests * 30 * 2 = 240 => Total 360
Which leaves ~6 turns of normal production on TGL less if we get a bigger overflow on turn 1.

Here is your Session Turn Log from 295 BC to 100 BC:

Turn 147, 295 BC: You have discovered Mathematics!

Turn 149, 265 BC: Bjørgvin has been founded.
Turn 149, 265 BC: Sarmatian (Barbarian) has been captured by the Mongolian Empire!!!

Turn 150, 250 BC: The borders of Birka have expanded!

Turn 151, 235 BC: You have trained a Galley in Nidaros. Work has now begun on a Trireme.

Turn 152, 220 BC: You have trained a Trireme in Nidaros. Work has now begun on a Library.

Turn 154, 190 BC: You have trained a Worker in Uppsala. Work has now begun on a Scout.

Turn 157, 145 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Birka!
Turn 157, 145 BC: You have trained a Scout in Uppsala. Work has now begun on a Granary.
Turn 157, 145 BC: Frank Kafka (Great Artist) has been born in Delhi (Gandhi)!

Turn 158, 130 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Birka!
Turn 158, 130 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Bjørgvin!
Turn 158, 130 BC: VQ's Trireme (2.00) vs Barbarian's Galley (1.42)
Turn 158, 130 BC: Combat Odds: 88.1%
Turn 158, 130 BC: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 158, 130 BC: (Class Attack: -50%)
Turn 158, 130 BC: VQ's Trireme is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 158, 130 BC: VQ's Trireme is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 158, 130 BC: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 158, 130 BC: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 158, 130 BC: VQ's Trireme is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 158, 130 BC: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 158, 130 BC: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 158, 130 BC: VQ's Trireme is hit for 16 (36/100HP)
Turn 158, 130 BC: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 158, 130 BC: VQ's Trireme has defeated Barbarian's Galley!
Turn 158, 130 BC: Your Trireme has destroyed a Galley!
Turn 158, 130 BC: Jeanne d'Arc (Great Prophet) has been born in Nidaros (VQ)!
Turn 158, 130 BC: Uppsala has grown to size 3
Turn 158, 130 BC: Bjørgvin will grow to size 2 on the next turn
Turn 158, 130 BC: Genghis Khan has completed The Pyramids!

Turn 159, 115 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Birka!
Turn 159, 115 BC: VQ has completed The Kashi Vishwanath!
Turn 159, 115 BC: You have discovered Alphabet!
Turn 159, 115 BC: Bjørgvin has grown to size 2
Turn 159, 115 BC: Genghis Khan adopts Police State!
Turn 159, 115 BC: New Tech(s) to trade: Genghis Khan

Turn 160, 100 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Birka!
Turn 160, 100 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Birka!

Link to the flying ragnar save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/VQ_SG004_BC0100_01.CivWarlordsSave)

My duties: Roster
namliaM -- +1 gmt (Actually 0 atm due to DST) > whipped Nadiros (*ducks away from Greyfox*)
Greyfox -- +8 gmt > Up on TGL + Construction?
Maquis -- -7 gmt > On deck
Bobrath -- -5 gmt
Healium -- +1 gmt -- Auto skip due to a Herniated disk *Good luck man* and be well
Scowler -- gmt
Frankcor-- -5 gmt <Lurker>
Cosmichail -- -5gmt

Cosmichail

Mar 08, 2007, 01:34 AM

I looked at the powergraph of the SGOTM progress screen. That was for the 295BC save. Looking good and you're right Karakorum just got a much bigger bullseye on it. Ok to the woodshed for you too whipping the capitol. :lol:

I would say a very good turnset and soon we can start the TGL. I am glad you went that route and satisfied Greyfox that Nidaros has a lib now. At least the pop stayed the same and still churning out good production with that pop.

Construction next for research? Get those cats up and running. Some swords/spears and a couple of chariots and we can invade. I think it's funny Genghis lost a city to the Barbarian empire. Way to go barbarians.....

Gandhi is pathetically small so we need to make some room for him down the road. I see that island has another island next to it and GK already settled there. Like what a spawn monster he is. I guess he can build settlers faster than units ergo losing to Barbs. That little island would make a great hideout but I am sure there are more islands around.

namliaM

Mar 08, 2007, 02:17 AM

satisfied Greyfox that Nidaros has a lib now.Naha... It doesnt have a lib yet... It still needs actual building the production is there tho, waiting in que...

Edit:
We want two more settlers too I think for the Orange and Yellow dots.
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/9158/moves2yy7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
About Orange (again)... What do we (all) think Orange dot... or Hollow Orange or 1 north on its "original" spot
Do we want to turn it into a GPFarm or cottage it up?
What about order of settling? Yellow, orange or reverse?
I think Yellow > Orange short term, but long term its the otherway around

*** Now if only we could be left "peacefully" untill we get TGL and 2 more settlers... ***

GreyFox

Mar 08, 2007, 08:11 AM

Well done, namliaM.

Got it ... nothing much need to be discussed. A few triremes to protect our sea, and some axes and swords to take Karakorum. Research-wise yes, construction should be pursued next, after that we should probably try to get to optics to meet these smaller-than-gandhi and bigger-than-us civs.

Anything I miss? Will play in 12~24 hrs. I presume its 10~15 turns from now on.

bobrath

Mar 08, 2007, 08:33 AM

Sounds like you guys are all set up for a nice little run. I'm assuming the "target" you guys are inferring is that since Khaaan went to Police State he must have the pyramids. Right?

EDIT:
I prefer Orange dot first then yellow (Ignoring my obvious desire for cyan2!!!!). I don't see the increase in value in moving to hollow orange - esp considering how much it would overlap with red.

Cosmichail

Mar 08, 2007, 11:52 AM

I am with Bob on the settling........
:agree:

Don't like the overlap with red on the hollow orange. Aren't we planning to GP farm Karakorum. Being financial I like the idea of cottaging it up solid orange.

Khan does have the pyramids and going to police state mmmmm.

Usually when Isabella does that it's a prelude to war.

No worries the Barbs are already giving him grief.

(Don't you just love it when an AI you are close too builds the pyramids.)

bobrath

Mar 08, 2007, 01:44 PM

(Very long term thought brought on by Police State) Mt. Rushmore will be a wonder we might "need" if the war with Ghandi starts to bite us too hard in the pocket book.

namliaM

Mar 08, 2007, 02:26 PM

Usually when Isabella does that it's a prelude to war.

This is what I am worried about... then again he may just be addopting his favorite civic like Toku does when he gets banking, no matter how much trade he loses and/or how little he is gaining from Merc. Plus
- Khaan doesnt have "to much on his hands" right now, he is willing to go to war with Gandhi. Except we cannot pay him enough....
- His power rating is not all that compared to ours, in particular if you take into account that he probably has barracks and walls all over which count for power as well.

Gandhi's powerrating is shooting right up there tho...!!!!

Hollow orange was intended to go with Brown, therefor is not an option since we settled red. I still say Orange goes where it is and not one north to grab the corn, the corn is needed by Haithabu to badly to go to Orange. Plus how fast can a GP farm catch up to 10GPP in Nadiros IF we get TGL? If we dont get TGL well... catching up to 2GPP is easy enough... I see orange all cottaged too.

About mt. Rushmore... well no fighting means no WW so if Gandhi is not comming to get his property we wont be incuring any WW thus no need for rushmore.

What is so special about Cyan 2 ?? It is near all plains => Needs a lot of farms, wont be a serious producer or commerce city. I think with 6 cities (7 if you count future Karakorum) we have ourselfs a nice little power core from which to strike out.
1 Producer (Nadiros)
1 GPP Farm, if we decide to (Karakorum)
5 commerce cities to support it all.
I think we should raze each and every Mongolian city and let Gandhi settle it including Cyan 2 to give him horses, the stronger his military is... the likelier he will attack (at some point)

Check up on Khaaan for trades, I forget to do that... but I doubt he has any techs for sale right now... Maybe Monarchy...
Just look out for those ships of Gandhi's and try to have the patients to build the library last so we can do all that overflow into TGL :)
With 8 turns to research Literature and Gandhi leaving us the **** allone! *grmbl* we can que the Axe that is beeing build in Nadiros (can add one more turn before de-que-ing it) and start something else IIRC Trireme is 5 turns.
5 + 1 (Axe before deque) + 1 (Axe after deque) + 1 (Lib) = 8 turns, we could switch to TGL right there. But I am sure the great Fox will figure something out ;)

Just remember you cannot overflow more than you are producing (raw hammers) thus if building the Axe you cannot overflow more than 52 and with the lib 135. Tho it would be great to get to near 100 or something on the lib... this is 200 down on TGL, adding 240 for the chops = 440 allready ...
Cant wait to see Fox' turnset....

bobrath

Mar 08, 2007, 02:55 PM

I'm not terribly worried about Ghandi jumping all over us with his units BUT since Mt. Rushmore requires Facisim AND that's not really on any path we might normally take - I wanted to make sure we kept it in the back of our minds so should the need arise, we might already have the tech researched out of the way making Rushmore that much quick to build. Again, should the need arise.

I'm pushing cyan2 for 2 reasons 1) it forms a perfect choke point with Cyan1 and 2) its my suggestion and I'm nearly, almost, kindof, always right. :p

namliaM

Mar 08, 2007, 03:02 PM

As for commerce and such waying Orange vs Yellow vs Cyan 2 well... I am not a fan of Cyan 2... but you guessed that I guess ;)

bobrath

Mar 08, 2007, 03:24 PM

Nah, I figured you just hated it cause it was my idea. :hug:

GreyFox

Mar 08, 2007, 09:02 PM

Boy, don't we love huts ...

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f81/9r3yf0x/sgotm02/vqsgotm4-BC0025-hut.jpg

Meanwhile, someone has been secretly building a Parthenon ...

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f81/9r3yf0x/sgotm02/vqsgotm4-BC0010-parthenon.jpg

Gandhi has load of ships in Birka, featuring a galley.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f81/9r3yf0x/sgotm02/vqsgotm4-AD0005-gandhi-ship.jpg

And it unloaded his fearful SoD:

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f81/9r3yf0x/sgotm02/vqsgotm4-AD0050-gandhi-sword-khan-s.jpg

Now, that's good baldy. Time to teach you some warfare. (Alert: Look where Khan's settling party is heading!!!)

Turn out Gandhi knew a bit of warfare tactics:

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f81/9r3yf0x/sgotm02/vqsgotm4-AD0095-gandhi-attk.jpg

He first move his sword to our an open area, dangering our gems and farm. I decided not to attack then, as the reinforcement is still 2 turns away, and he can't pillage until he is on the tile (only one movement).

Next, Gandhi's jungle sword remains unmoved, while his sword head towards our gem. Time to attack!! :hammer:

This results in one dead sword on the gem mine, but also our city is now protected by an archer and a chariot. Gandhi use this chance to attack and killed our archer. Hmm ... is this his intention? I'm impressed!

But too bad, our reinforcement arrives, and easily dispatched his injured sword. So stats this round: US: 1 archer - BALDY: 2 swords

Meanwhile, I MM'ed the axe so that it has 51/52 hammers completed, and whip it to overflow into the great library. Coupled with the hammers stored in library by namliaM and the forests chops:

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f81/9r3yf0x/sgotm02/vqsgotm4-AD0065-greatlib.jpg

What happens to Khan's settling party? What about our own settler?

Why, I did put some hammers into settler while waiting for Literature to come in. But he was a turn too late:

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f81/9r3yf0x/sgotm02/vqsgotm4-AD0110-khan-settled.jpg

Damned ... why does AI always choose such dubious sites? Now we have to raze that city instead of keeping it!

>>> The Save (125AD) (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/VQ_SG004_AD0125_01.CivWarlordsSave) <<<

Trireme promoted: Combat I

Turn 161 (85 BC)

Turn 162 (70 BC)
Nidaros begins: Settler
Haithabu grows: 6

Turn 163 (55 BC)
Bjørgvin's borders expand

Turn 164 (40 BC)

Turn 165 (25 BC)
Tech learned: Monarchy
Tribal village results: technology
Hinduism has spread: Uppsala
Haithabu finishes: Library

Turn 166 (10 BC)
Haithabu begins: Barracks
Tech learned: Literature

Turn 167 (5 AD)
Research begun: Construction
Nidaros begins: Library
Nidaros finishes: Library

Turn 168 (20 AD)
Nidaros begins: The Great Library
Uppsala grows: 3
Uppsala finishes: Granary

Turn 169 (35 AD)
Uppsala begins: Barracks
Nidaros begins: Axeman
Nidaros grows: 7
Nidaros finishes: Axeman
Birka grows: 3

Turn 170 (50 AD)
Nidaros finishes: The Great Library
Uppsala finishes: Barracks
Haithabu grows: 6
Haithabu finishes: Barracks
Christianity founded in a distant land
Hinduism has spread: Karakorum (Mongolian Empire)

Turn 171 (65 AD)
Nidaros begins: Settler
Uppsala begins: Axeman
Haithabu begins: Axeman

Turn 172 (80 AD)
Nidaros finishes: Settler

Turn 173 (95 AD)
Nidaros begins: Axeman
Axeman defeats (1.60/5): Indian Swordsman
Bjørgvin finishes: Worker
Archer loses to: Indian Swordsman (3.84/6)

Turn 174 (110 AD)
Axeman promoted: Shock
Axeman defeats (5.00/5): Indian Swordsman
Axeman promoted: Shock
Nidaros finishes: Axeman

Turn 175 (125 AD)
Nidaros begins: Aqueduct

urn 163, 55 BC: The borders of Bjørgvin have expanded!

Turn 165, 25 BC: The villagers have given you the secrets of a new Technology!
Turn 165, 25 BC: You have discovered Monarchy!
Turn 165, 25 BC: Hinduism has spread in Uppsala.
Turn 165, 25 BC: The Parthenon has been built in a far away land!

Turn 166, 10 BC: You have discovered Literature!

Turn 169, 35 AD: You have trained a Axeman in Nidaros. Work has now begun on The Great Library.

Turn 170, 50 AD: VQ has completed The Great Library!
Turn 170, 50 AD: Christianity has been founded in a distant land!
Turn 170, 50 AD: Gandhi adopts Theocracy!
Turn 170, 50 AD: Hinduism has spread in Karakorum.

Turn 171, 65 AD: Genghis Khan converts to Hinduism!

Turn 172, 80 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Birka!

Turn 173, 95 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Birka!
Turn 173, 95 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Birka!
Turn 173, 95 AD: VQ's Axeman (5.50) vs Gandhi's Swordsman (4.28)
Turn 173, 95 AD: Combat Odds: 76.5%
Turn 173, 95 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 173, 95 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 173, 95 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 173, 95 AD: VQ's Axeman is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 173, 95 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 173, 95 AD: VQ's Axeman is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 173, 95 AD: VQ's Axeman is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 173, 95 AD: VQ's Axeman is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 173, 95 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 173, 95 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 173, 95 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 173, 95 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 173, 95 AD: VQ's Axeman has defeated Gandhi's Swordsman!
Turn 173, 95 AD: Your Axeman has destroyed a Swordsman!
Turn 173, 95 AD: You have trained a Worker in Bjørgvin. Work has now begun on a Granary.
Turn 173, 95 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman (6.00) vs VQ's Archer (4.95)
Turn 173, 95 AD: Combat Odds: 68.1%
Turn 173, 95 AD: (Plot Defense: +20%)
Turn 173, 95 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 173, 95 AD: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 173, 95 AD: (City Attack: -30%)
Turn 173, 95 AD: VQ's Archer is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 173, 95 AD: VQ's Archer is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 173, 95 AD: VQ's Archer is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 173, 95 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 173, 95 AD: VQ's Archer is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 173, 95 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 173, 95 AD: VQ's Archer is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 173, 95 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman has defeated VQ's Archer!
Turn 173, 95 AD: While defending, your Archer was destroyed by a Indian Swordsman!

Turn 174, 110 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Birka!
Turn 174, 110 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Birka!
Turn 174, 110 AD: VQ's Axeman (5.50) vs Gandhi's Swordsman (3.33)
Turn 174, 110 AD: Combat Odds: 96.3%
Turn 174, 110 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 174, 110 AD: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 174, 110 AD: (Fortify: +10%)
Turn 174, 110 AD: (Combat: -75%)
Turn 174, 110 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 22 (42/100HP)
Turn 174, 110 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 22 (20/100HP)
Turn 174, 110 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 174, 110 AD: VQ's Axeman has defeated Gandhi's Swordsman!
Turn 174, 110 AD: Your Axeman has destroyed a Swordsman!

Turn 175, 125 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Birka!
Turn 175, 125 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Birka!

namliaM

Mar 09, 2007, 12:06 AM

Boy, don't we love huts ... :woohoo: :woohoo: Guess that was worth a scout and a Galley :)

Wow Gandhi landed some troops good for him and a nice little stack too 4 swords.... Guess we need to keep atleast 3 fighting men in Birka to make sure it doesnt fall untill we want it too.
Not so good with the settler from Khaaan, guess this means war a bit earlier...

Meanwhile, I MM'ed the axe so that it has 51/52 hammers completed, and whip it to overflow into the great library. Coupled with the hammers stored in library by namliaM and the forests chops: :woohoo: we got the Lib :) Tho I dont know about the 1 pop whip, it gives a bad convertion rate and the +1 :mad:
But wow... you whipped :)

Hinduism has spread: Karakorum (Mongolian Empire)
Nice... more $$

Bjørgvin finishes: Worker
Another :whipped: ???
Nidaros begins: Aqueduct
Why an aqueduct? I dont recon we need the heath, dont we need some Axemen or something?

Turn 171, 65 AD: Genghis Khan converts to Hinduism!
This is nice, I dont think he will attack us now anytime soon... unless we attack him :)

Why did you retreat our galley tho??? There are Orange borders WEST of Tabriz, why not keep the Galley (and possibly a Trireme escort?) there in case either of them borders expand??

We are currently producing 11GPP in Nadiros with 2 sources for Priests and 3 for GS. Thus a 60% change for a GS.
MC => Machinery => Compass => Optics will take us (currently) 72 turns.
Where popping 2 GPs will take (750-88)/11=60 turns.
Then we still have to research or trade for Calander, hopefully our research rate will jump up somewhat...

I think Nadiros and Haithabu need some MM-ing...
Haithabu IMHO needs to work the Cottage not the forrest.
Nadiros work the Lake not the plains forrest.

We are starting to run into the health cap, maybe we can trade our marble for sheep with Khaaan for a bit untill our own sheep is connected. Ah, thats why the Aquaduct in Nadiros :crazyeye: :goodjob:
I noticed that Khaaan doesnt have Copper, but does have Iron (or will soon have). Next set should be mostly about military build up I think?? If we can get some 3 cats together, these can knock of most of the culture defence in 2 turns. And some Axemen/Swords with CR, some Spears for defence against those HAs... we are good to go...
Nadiros can make an Axe/Spear in ~3 turns, so within one set we should be able to produce atleast 4 :)

Roster
namliaM -- +1 gmt (Actually 0 atm due to DST)
Greyfox -- +8 gmt > Went and crowned libbed us
Maquis -- -7 gmt > UP
Bobrath -- -5 gmt > On deck
Healium -- +1 gmt -- Auto skip due to a Herniated disk *Good luck man* and be well
Scowler -- gmt > Due for some Khaaan bashing?
Frankcor-- -5 gmt <Lurker>
Cosmichail -- -5gmt > Most definate Basher!

GreyFox

Mar 09, 2007, 01:08 AM

I whipped quite a few actually. The library in Haithabu and the worker in Bjorvin, and a Granary somewhere I think.

As for the whip on Nidaros, well, since Nidaros is abt to grow one more, with no improved tiles to work on, I decide to whip for overflow.

Well, the forest chops drops our health cap, which you found out eventually. I purposely MM'ed Haithabu to work on the forest for some reason in the middle of my turns ... (forgot what is the reason now :crazyeye:).

No idea abt Nidaros, think I didn't look at the the city after TGL was built.

There are way too many Gandhi's triremes in Birka ... our lone trireme provides no protection. In fact, if I were Gandhi, I would have attacked our lone trireme with 2 triremes.

After construction, we should consider heading towards optics.

BTW, I did not revolt to HR. Didn't see a point in revolting now since we are still doing okay in terms of happiness.

==

bobrath

Mar 09, 2007, 08:02 AM

Great work as always GreyFox.

So do we settle Orange now (since yellow is out of reach for the short term)? One thing I noticed is that unless we've got some other roads set up, Tiflis just neatly cut Cyan1 off from our trade network (when we lose OB with Khaaaan). Its also on a hill. SIGH.

We need to be careful about losing any units to Ghandi since there will be no way to remove the WW created by it - thus happy producing buildings and techs (and resources) should always have a higher priority then normal.

namliaM

Mar 09, 2007, 08:57 AM

When OBs are lost, yes... Uppsala will be cut off from the rest of our empire! But with only 1 archer defending it, 3 Axemen should be able to liberate the yellow spot and open up the route once more.

On where to send the settler, I dont really know. We cannot really spare the workers I think to start chopping the Jungle right now. But sending it to Cyan 2 would require to defend another (frontline) city to Gandhi AND Khaaan (when the time comes).

Re: Haithabu, I think the forrest is beeing worked for hammers. Without the forrest its a 7hpt city. 9 with it. That is the differenct between a 8 turn Axe and 6 turn Axe. But I think that city in particular we want to work all the cottages we can.

I agree with Grey to go for Optics soon, tho Currency, CoL and Calander are up there on the priority list as well. I dont see any point in upping the happy when we are at or over the health limit and below the happy cap.
I noticed Khaaan allready had Calander, so maybe we can trade him for MC? This also makes meeting the Orange civ that little bit more important => New civ = more trading possibilities...

About WW, this is not completely true, as I understand it you ALLWAYS lose some WW points. 1% of your total (rounded UP) or 1 point minimum, if you are at war or not doesnt matter, beeing at permenant war makes it slightly better!

Or atleast that is the way it is told in the War Weariness Mechanics (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/war_weariness.php) article by Krikitone on 1.61. Dont know if it has changed...
If that article is correct, for losing the Archer we got 2 WW points
For killing 2 Swords on defence (right?) 2*3 = 6
For attacking on our own grounds and killing the last sword 1 a total of 9
This is multiplied by 50% for beeing in a state of permenant war
World size Standard = 90%
I am not sure how Monarch level figures into this (I dont see a dificulty level modifier) and also the Era we (or the AIs) are in has something to do with it....

But as far as I figure it we encured 90% of 50% of 9 WW points = 4.05 points
We are still in the early goings, so era doesnt come much into it.

Devided by 200 = 2 percent of our pop was WW unhappy. At size 10 you dont get 1 unhappy untill atleast 10%
While this drops 1 point/turn. Making us WW free 9 turns after the altercation.

GreyFox

Mar 09, 2007, 09:14 AM

On WW:

Your interpretation of the article is definitely not the same as how I read it. Firstly, the article says: "Combat Actions: only gained where you are not Culturally dominant". Since we are obviously culturally dominant when the archer was lost, or when the swords were slain, there shouldn't be WW resulting from it.

And it does not mention each turn is a minimum of one. It says each turn you do not have a combat is -1. So WW will actually decrease if you don't do combat for a long number of turns. To quote the article: "you can do ~1 Combat every 1-3 turns and not increase your WW."

--

Yes, most likely I needed the hammers when I MM'd it to wok on the forest rather than the cottage.

I would settle orange first.We don't have to chop every jungle at once. We just have to chop them as fast as the city grows, which will be quite slow initially.

--

bobrath

Mar 09, 2007, 09:57 AM

Excellent information on WW there. I'll go read the article, but from GreyFox's synopsis it sounds like we can really manage our WW by keeping the battles on our "land".

One question for the group... should we be concerned with Ghandi's WW?

namliaM

Mar 09, 2007, 11:56 AM

@Fox Yes again you are right, seems like we didnt get any WW

Gandhi did get some... but that cannot be helped I think and for AI I think WW is reduced considerably...

frankcor

Mar 09, 2007, 01:28 PM

Boy, don't we love huts ...

What fool suggested loading a scout onto a galley?

Oh, that would be me. ::glyph of frankcor buffing nails::

bobrath

Mar 09, 2007, 02:35 PM

Where's that darn eyeroll glyph.....

ooh here it is :rolleyes:

Maquis

Mar 09, 2007, 08:48 PM

Ok, I see the file, planning on playing in about 24 hours.

So what are the opinions on cyan? Should we try to settle at this point? Or do we want to start some major buildup for Khaaaan?

GreyFox

Mar 09, 2007, 09:12 PM

The settler is already there, the escort (albeit a lowly warrior) is already there, so there is no real conflict between the two options you say, Maquis ;)

i.e. you can both settle and build up troops (and give felines as pets, will you?)

namliaM

Mar 10, 2007, 02:02 AM

I (personaly) dont like/need Cyan 2 as for the low food situation, it has "pretty" high upkeep and it will take a good while for it to pay for itself.

If we are planning on moving Orange to that dot (one south from where Fox painted it) we should also move Cyan 2 one south.
Cyan 2 is going to need chain farming + lighthouse to be anything real and even then... IMHO to much upkeep for to little gain.

namliaM

Mar 11, 2007, 08:34 AM

Ok, I see the file, planning on playing in about 24 hours.

Hmz... I hope we can look forward to a set today....

Maquis

Mar 11, 2007, 08:35 AM

Turns are played, need a couple hours for the writeup.. lots going on!

Such as...

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/9067/civ4screenshot0012mf2.jpg

GreyFox

Mar 11, 2007, 09:31 AM

:eek: :hammer: :drool:

namliaM

Mar 11, 2007, 09:47 AM

Now that is what I call a spoiler :(

How come he declares? We are not that low on power and we share religion! *GRMBL*

bobrath

Mar 11, 2007, 10:16 AM

Might have something to do with Maquis and Khaaaan's wife....

Maquis

Mar 11, 2007, 10:30 AM

I can't say I'm entirely happy with my turns... looking back I should have used the :whipped: a little more. Oh well...

The good:

I took some advice, and sent one of our triemes south, to see if we can hit that orange border. By the time I got there, they had popped! Hello Mr Hannibal!

He's up a few techs on us, but does not have Lit at this time. I didn't pull the trigger an any tech trades (Probably a mistake on my part!)

http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/3025/civ4screenshot0010ds2.jpg

However, I did pull off a quick trade, Corn for Furs. I know we're more strapped for health, but I figured that we should get some trade going ASAP.
I also opened borders so that our boat can travel on.

So who else is out there?? Mr. Washington, how are you?

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/5006/civ4screenshot0017oc6.jpg

He also does not have Lit.

Tech-wise, I went for Metal Casting after Construction came in. Hopefully no one gets too upset :mischief: I think forges will be good, both for the production, and the :)

I ended my turnset the turn that MC finished. I put Machinery in next, but that is totally Veto-able. Do we want to get maces? Or should we work to back-fill some other tech?

I went ahead and settled Cyan2. Started a granary there first. Workers been bustin butt all over. Hooked up the Iron, as well as the food in the nothern city. I've also been roading up our southern cities. As we are preparing (are IN WAR) we ned some more roads to get our troops south...

The bad:

I lost out trireme in the north, to a misclick... I did not reload it, I guess I just didn't think that it was that terrible a mistake. Shoot me for it :)

The big news, of course... Khaaan beat us to the war declaration. This came about, because he asked to trade for Construction. I declined, as I did not want him to get cats (of course). He immediately declared.

So anyways... I have been building up some cats, swords, and axes... however, they were all kind of spread around. I've started moving them to the south-east.

Khaan did send one Kesik/Chariot to our land, trying to pillage. I took them out, losing one of our Chariots in the meantime.

Oh, and that little crappy city of Tefis... is no more.

http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/1143/civ4screenshot0016cj5.jpg

I stopped right after razing it. We need to discuss war strategy at this point.

GK seems lightly defended, at least in a couple of his cities (only 2 archers each) Of course, he's got Keshiks, and will be cranking them out in droves now.

Notes:

I did not revolt to HR yet, but we may need to now. Khan declaring on us canceled our trade with Hannibal, as well as our trade with GK. Nidaros became unhappy, and a couple other cities are pushing the limits.

CFC turnlog:
Turn 177, 155 AD: VQ's Trireme (2.00) vs Gandhi's Trireme (2.20)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Combat Odds: 32.2%
Turn 177, 155 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Gandhi's Trireme is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: VQ's Trireme is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: VQ's Trireme is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Gandhi's Trireme is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: VQ's Trireme is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Gandhi's Trireme is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: VQ's Trireme is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: VQ's Trireme is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Gandhi's Trireme has defeated VQ's Trireme!
Turn 177, 155 AD: You have discovered Construction!

Turn 178, 170 AD: Jelling has been founded.
Turn 178, 170 AD: You have constructed a Granary in Birka. Work has now begun on a Library.
Turn 178, 170 AD: Hinduism has spread in Birka.
Turn 178, 170 AD: Zoroaster (Great Prophet) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 180, 200 AD: The Kong Miao has been built in a far away land!

Turn 181, 215 AD: Ramakrishna (Great Prophet) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 182, 230 AD: Nidaros celebrates "We Love the Despot Day"!!!
Turn 182, 230 AD: The borders of Haithabu have expanded!

Turn 183, 245 AD: Nidaros celebrates "We Love the Despot Day"!!!
Turn 183, 245 AD: William T. G. Morton (Great Engineer) has been born in a far away land!
Turn 183, 245 AD: The Mahabodhi has been built in a far away land!

Turn 185, 275 AD: Genghis Khan adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 187, 305 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Birka!
Turn 187, 305 AD: Genghis Khan has declared war on you!

Turn 188, 320 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Birka!
Turn 188, 320 AD: Genghis Khan has 6 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 188, 320 AD: Gandhi adopts Vassalage!

Turn 189, 335 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Uppsala!
Turn 189, 335 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Birka!
Turn 189, 335 AD: Gandhi has 6 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 189, 335 AD: St. Peter (Great Prophet) has been born in Delhi (Gandhi)!
Turn 189, 335 AD: Genghis Khan's Keshik (7.20) vs VQ's Archer (6.90)
Turn 189, 335 AD: Combat Odds: 65.0%
Turn 189, 335 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 189, 335 AD: (Plot Defense: +20%)
Turn 189, 335 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 189, 335 AD: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 189, 335 AD: (City Attack: +10%)
Turn 189, 335 AD: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 189, 335 AD: VQ's Archer is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 189, 335 AD: Genghis Khan's Keshik is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 189, 335 AD: Genghis Khan's Keshik is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 189, 335 AD: VQ's Archer is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 189, 335 AD: Genghis Khan's Keshik is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 189, 335 AD: Genghis Khan's Keshik is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 189, 335 AD: VQ's Archer is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 189, 335 AD: Genghis Khan's Keshik is hit for 19 (5/100HP)
Turn 189, 335 AD: Genghis Khan's Keshik is hit for 19 (0/100HP)
Turn 189, 335 AD: VQ's Archer has defeated Genghis Khan's Keshik!
Turn 189, 335 AD: While defending, your Archer has killed a Mongolian Keshik!

Turn 190, 350 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Uppsala!
Turn 190, 350 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Birka!
Turn 190, 350 AD: VQ's Chariot (4.40) vs Genghis Khan's Chariot (4.40)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Combat Odds: 50.0%
Turn 190, 350 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 190, 350 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 190, 350 AD: VQ's Chariot is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 190, 350 AD: VQ's Chariot is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Genghis Khan's Chariot is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 190, 350 AD: VQ's Chariot is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 190, 350 AD: VQ's Chariot is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 190, 350 AD: VQ's Chariot is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Genghis Khan's Chariot has defeated VQ's Chariot!
Turn 190, 350 AD: Your Chariot has died trying to attack a Chariot!
Turn 190, 350 AD: VQ's Catapult (5.00) vs Genghis Khan's Chariot (3.52)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Combat Odds: 88.5%
Turn 190, 350 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 190, 350 AD: VQ's Catapult is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 190, 350 AD: VQ's Catapult is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Genghis Khan's Chariot is hit for 22 (58/100HP)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Genghis Khan's Chariot is hit for 22 (36/100HP)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Genghis Khan's Chariot is hit for 22 (14/100HP)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Genghis Khan's Chariot is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 190, 350 AD: VQ's Catapult has defeated Genghis Khan's Chariot!
Turn 190, 350 AD: Your Catapult has destroyed a Chariot!
Turn 190, 350 AD: You have discovered Metal Casting!
Turn 190, 350 AD: New Tech(s) to trade: Washington

Turn 191, 365 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Birka!
Turn 191, 365 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Birka!
Turn 191, 365 AD: VQ's Catapult (5.00) vs Genghis Khan's Archer (6.75)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Combat Odds: 16.6%
Turn 191, 365 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Your Catapult has caused collateral damage! (1 Unit)
Turn 191, 365 AD: VQ's Catapult is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: VQ's Catapult is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: VQ's Catapult is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: VQ's Catapult is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Your Catapult has withdrawn from combat with a Archer!
Turn 191, 365 AD: VQ's Swordsman (6.60) vs Genghis Khan's Archer (4.43)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Combat Odds: 87.0%
Turn 191, 365 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: (City Attack: -30%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: VQ's Swordsman is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: VQ's Swordsman is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: VQ's Swordsman is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 23 (64/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 23 (41/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 23 (18/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: VQ's Swordsman is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: VQ's Swordsman is hit for 17 (15/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: VQ's Swordsman has defeated Genghis Khan's Archer!
Turn 191, 365 AD: Your Swordsman has destroyed a Archer!
Turn 191, 365 AD: VQ's Axeman (5.50) vs Genghis Khan's Archer (3.01)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Combat Odds: 96.3%
Turn 191, 365 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: VQ's Axeman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 21 (28/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 21 (7/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: VQ's Axeman has defeated Genghis Khan's Archer!
Turn 191, 365 AD: Your Axeman has destroyed a Archer!
Turn 191, 365 AD: You have captured a Worker
Turn 191, 365 AD: You have captured Tiflis!!!
Turn 191, 365 AD: You have destroyed the city of Tiflis!!!

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/VQ_SG004_AD0365_01.CivWarlordsSave)

Maquis

Mar 11, 2007, 11:33 AM

How come he declares? We are not that low on power and we share religion! *GRMBL*

That really took me by surprise as well. Early in my turns, he asked for sheep for our gems, and I agreed.

When he declared, he asked Horseback Riding for Construction, and I declined. At the time, we were +1 with him (-1 for close borders, +1 each for religion and trades)

I suppose there was a -1 for declining the trade? Anyways... I don't see any other huge threat coming out way (yet). We should make sure to watch Upsalla, as that's where he sent his small pillaging party.

Cosmichail

Mar 11, 2007, 12:50 PM

When he declared, he asked Horseback Riding for Construction

Wow I thought he just was asking for construction (tribute) and we refused. I have had him declare that way but never for a trade.

I suppose there was a -1 for declining the trade

Never seen a negative arise from turning down a trade. (tribute, request yes but not a tech for tech trade).

He doesn't have much IIRC and if anything we should send a pillage team south and take out iron/horses if we can.

And going for MC was a good chioice as if we go for Machinery we get our UU Berserkers and they do a great job at hiding in the shores and taking down cities. Excellent strategy for weak cities (amphibious attack).

Since we have found other AI that are easier to deal with (Hannibal can be a good trading partner but does tech very fast) I'd say we take out GK completely. Go for machinery and send berserkers his way. He won't stand a chance.

Maquis

Mar 11, 2007, 12:56 PM

Might have something to do with Maquis and Khaaaan's wife....

Where did you hear that? I thought she said "What happens in Ning-shia, stays in Ning-shia..." :lol:

Maquis

Mar 11, 2007, 01:03 PM

And going for MC was a good chioice as if we go for Machinery we get our UU Berserkers and they do a great job at hiding in the shores and taking down cities. Excellent strategy for weak cities (amphibious attack).

Good thing at least someone agrees with me :lol:

Also, forgot to mention; Hannibal doesn't like us anymore, we've got a -3 for religion. Also, our trades got canceled when Khan declared on us. Right now he won't trade any techs with us. Hopefully we can remedy that sometime soon.

namliaM

Mar 11, 2007, 01:57 PM

As far as I know there is no -diplo on declining a trade offer, maybe it was a last ditch trade thing?? Which we do often, you know get that one trade in before killing Khaaaan :devil: Nah... I think he was bought into war with us by Gandhi.
*** After looking at the save... He demanded tribute, which could offcourse if we decline (and rightfully so!) result in war ***

:goodjob: on removing that interloping city of Khaaan and improving Bjorgvin, tho I think you went a bit overboard on Bjorgvin...
Bjorgvin is only size 2 and has 5 or 6 tiles (pre-) improved, while other cities (Birka and Nadiros come to mind) are working unimproved tiles.

The 2 new civs both are Confused, causing allready mayor -diplo on religion. We could consider dropping the religion, yes this is -1 happy... but we also gain some (-3 with hannibal) diplo points.

About MC, I think I wouldnt have picked it. We dont need the happy right now, we do want the production, but.... have a higher prio on units right now I think. Also our economy is suffering real bad at 50% and paying 12gpt for units, offcourse this cannot be helped but I think we need to do something about that. Which is why I suggest going after either CoL or Currency (niether of which is known by Washington. Also getting those 2 cheap cities (Orange and Yellow) will help in getting unit support down.
Khaaaan has currency has well, maybe we can extort it from him after razing a few cities and taking Karakorum??
We worry about Khaaan fielding Keshiks but we are fielding no spears to counter them??

About beeing spread out, well we need some units in both Cyan 2 and Birka to protect them from Gandhi (for the time beeing) Gandhi has 2 galleys near Birka...
If we can muster up a "SoD" of 4 Cats, 2 spear, 2 Axe and 2 Swords I think we can start marching towards the east and clean up Khaaan clockwize?? Those eastern cities seem the most productive to me... Plus them hills and forrests (if still there) will give us some cover. Raze everything but Karakorum??
Capturing cities = $$$ to run more science... So lets start doing that ASAP. If we can get Currency and his 250 gold for peace anytime (soon) that would be GREAT.

Edit: If we want to bulb Astro we dont want to research CS for another ~500/11 = 45 turns. Presuming we get 2 GSs

GreyFox

Mar 11, 2007, 10:52 PM

I don't know if there is a diplo minus for refusing to trade. What I always do is to click on "Care to Negotiate" and then click "Exit", instead of outright rejecting the trade.

But normal for GK to attack, I always have him declared for no apparent reason other than he perceived me to be weak. Anyway, he has ran out of space to settle as well, and with the settling of Tiffis, we must have incurred border-tension penalty with him.

Why bother with relationships to other civs? Let them be annoyed.

We need to whip a few units out and take Karakorum fast. Maybe have to remove one or two surrounding cities to ease cultural pressure ... but we cannot keep more cities ... we need to cottage up. But remember to leave enough defenders near the North and West cities in case Gandhi coordinated an attack with Khan.

--

namliaM

Mar 12, 2007, 12:05 AM

We dont have the close borders penalty (yet) with Khaaan, I agree on taking Karakorum and RAZING all others.
We do need to be mindfull of that gandhi caracter I agree... we need to find ourselves a save haven someplace where we can sit and watch Gandhi launch... The American/Carthage Island/continent perhaps?

I disagree with Fox' assesment "let them be annoyed", for one this would make them more likely to declare war (OK accross water but still) and less likely to deal with us. We need (IMHO) some (heavy) techtrading to get back in the tech game.

Roster
namliaM -- +1 gmt (Actually 0 atm due to DST)
Greyfox -- +8 gmt
Maquis -- -7 gmt > Researched MC
Bobrath -- -5 gmt > Your's UP ;) More prepping on Khaaan?
Healium -- +1 gmt -- Auto skip due to a Herniated disk *Good luck man* and be well
Scowler -- gmt > On deck for some serious Khaaan bashing
Frankcor-- -5 gmt <Lurker>
Cosmichail -- -5gmt > Most definate Basher!

P.S. Kudos to Maquis on playing that turn extra to get the tech in and raze that eyesore of a city.

bobrath

Mar 12, 2007, 07:46 AM

I'll play tonight, but will be looking forward to any further discussion beyond "go make Khaaaan cry mommy".

Tech path being the operative discussion topic. Both trading and research. Is there any tech we want to keep a monopoly on or beeline towards?

namliaM

Mar 12, 2007, 07:58 AM

Techwize I think we really need CoL or Currency. Other than that beeline for Optics so we can burn scientist(s) on Astronomy?
A GS will give ~2500 beakers towards that goal, 2 GS is overdoing it basicaly wasting beakers. By the time we get Calander + Optics we should easy generate 2 GPs from Nadiros, but I we cannot be sure what it is. So I suggest keeping a GS around. A GP we might be able to burn on theologie?? Is that trade bait?

On Khaaaan and Mommie... well get a Dollop of Pointy, a spoon full of blades, add a pinch of Miouw and we have one recepy for Mommie (tm)!
Edit: Dont forget to whip it all together before feeding it

Like I posted earlier, gather a few Spears, add some Axe and Swords, some 4 Catapults and BANG! Leaving behind an Axe and spear in Uppsala I think for pillage protection and add a spear to Cyan 2 (I forget the name)
Edit: Bring your :whipped: IIRC non of our cities currently have angry people due to the whip. But apply it gently only where working unimproved tiles I think.

And lets try to not be "over prepared"

GreyFox

Mar 12, 2007, 08:56 AM

@namliaM: let's wait until we actually meet the other civ before we decide what to do, ok? It's really pointless to go to no religion now.

--

frankcor

Mar 12, 2007, 11:55 AM

Where did you hear that? I thought she said "What happens in Ning-shia, stays in Ning-shia..." :lol:

Maybe it's just me but the torrid naughty affairs always seem to gain the most noteriety.

Cosmichail

Mar 12, 2007, 03:36 PM

Geez I thought that was Vegas. (what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas).

Tech wise too I tend to agree with namliaM with COL/currency. However the warrior part of me is screaming for CS/Machinery. Load up a few galleys with berserkers and go a shore warmongering and watch those cities fall. You don't even have to go on land until you raze the city. In a SP game took out Alex with two galleys loaded with berserkers. (Two of them were CR3) He declares war and is defending cities with archers. Berserkers just eat those guys for breakfast.

But lacking Berserkers it will have to be swords/cats/axes and a few spears to smashy those Keshiks. Have fun Bob and make us proud.

bobrath

Mar 12, 2007, 10:20 PM

And the turns just get worse and worse.

Ghandi is not the pushover we wanted him to be... course Bombay being size 20 can't help but make him more then a bit proud of himself. He took Birka from us, I was lucky to hold it through one set of attacks. Just as I get an offensive force ready to retake Birking... He lands outside Jelling and his lbm + 2 WE + 1 sword will easily take it from our axe and warrior defenses. I'll leave it up to the next player to decide the course of action here.

I made no progress against Khaaaan other then to fight off the single Keshik pillagers he sends our way. I do have the basic SoD requested ready to go tho. Again, up to next player to decide to use it against Khaaan or to bend it backwards to retake Jelling - assuming we can hold off Khaan (who had Lbms of his own show up in some cities).

We popped a GP and he would initially research meditation. I held off.

Hanging Gardens and Colosuss were built during my turns along with the Church of the Nativity.

During my turns, we met Izzy who was annoyed with us and 5 turns later demanded construction. I gave in and then right away asked for a trade. She gave us Meditation + Monotheism + 30g for our knowledge of Literature. After this we picked up +4 fair trade and +1 tribute given. She's the only AI that doesn't want our blood. Hannibal decided that we didn't need OB with him anymore, but that's ok since Mehmed II hates Hannibal and was happy to see we no longer had OB with his enemy - giving us OB in return.

Thanks to the techs from Izzy, out GP would research Theology. I did this right away, but Christianity had already been founded. Of the folks we know, only Ghandi has this knowledge. I would suggest trading with Mehmed first and getting Feudalism for Lit + MC + Construction. We could then go to GW and get Calendar + HBR + 10g for Theo + Lit, however I don't think Mehmed would appreciate it and I don't know that we really benefit from it.

I did whip what I could and we've got units - we're not going to lose in a wave of AIs jumping on us. HOWEVER we're in bad shape and its going to take some very good moves coming up to get us into a position where we'll last long enough to see Ghandi reach the stars. Right now, I don't see any way that Ghandi can't win this game. He's a powerhouse with a tech lead - we need to figure out how to avoid elimination - as in we need to find a second home FAST.

Its 500AD (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/VQ_SG004_AD0500_01.CivWarlordsSave) - do you know where your Indian is?

HoF Autolog

Turn 191 (365 AD)
Research begun: Code of Laws
Uppsala finishes: Catapult

Turn 192 (380 AD)
Uppsala begins: Catapult
Uppsala begins: Spearman
Catapult promoted: City Raider I
Catapult promoted: City Raider II
Birka begins: Spearman
Axeman promoted: Combat II
Swordsman promoted: City Raider II
Nidaros finishes: Swordsman
Haithabu finishes: Axeman
Birka grows: 3
Birka finishes: Spearman
Bjørgvin grows: 2
Bjørgvin finishes: Swordsman
Jelling's borders expand
Spearman defeats (0.80/4): Indian War Elephant
Axeman loses to: Indian War Elephant (6.56/8)
Chariot loses to: Indian Swordsman (2.40/6)
Warrior loses to: Indian Axeman (5.00/5)

Turn 193 (395 AD)
Nidaros begins: Archer
Haithabu begins: Spearman
Bjørgvin begins: Archer
Spearman promoted: Shock
Chariot promoted: Flanking I
Birka begins: Archer
Axeman promoted: City Raider II
Nidaros finishes: Archer
Axeman loses to: Indian War Elephant (2.16/8)
Spearman loses to: Indian Swordsman (3.18/6)
Birka lost
Hinduism has spread: Birka (Indian Empire)
Chariot loses to: Mongolian Keshik (0.60/6)
Contact made: Spanish Empire

Turn 194 (410 AD)
Nidaros begins: Archer
Archer defeats (3.00/3): Mongolian Keshik
Axeman promoted: Woodsman I
Axeman promoted: City Raider I
St. John (Great Prophet) born in Nidaros
Uppsala grows: 6

Turn 195 (425 AD)
Nidaros finishes: Archer
Haithabu grows: 7
Haithabu finishes: Spearman

Turn 196 (440 AD)
Nidaros begins: Spearman
Haithabu begins: Archer
Archer promoted: City Garrison I
Archer promoted: City Garrison I
Bjørgvin finishes: Archer

Turn 197 (455 AD)
Bjørgvin begins: Chariot
Nidaros finishes: Spearman
Uppsala finishes: Spearman

Turn 198 (470 AD)
Nidaros begins: Catapult
Uppsala begins: Spearman
Spearman promoted: Combat II
Spearman loses to: Mongolian Keshik (0.72/6)
Archer defeats (3.00/3): Mongolian Keshik
Uppsala finishes: Spearman

Turn 199 (485 AD)
Tech learned: Meditation
Tech learned: Monotheism
Uppsala begins: Spearman
Tech learned: Theology
Contact made: Ottoman Empire
Uppsala's borders expand
Bjørgvin grows: 3

Turn 200 (500 AD)
Axeman promoted: Combat II
Swordsman promoted: City Raider I
Spearman promoted: Combat II

CfC Autolog

Turn 191, 365 AD: VQ's Catapult (5.00) vs Genghis Khan's Archer (6.75)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Combat Odds: 16.6%
Turn 191, 365 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: VQ's Catapult is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: VQ's Catapult is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: VQ's Catapult is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: VQ's Catapult is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: VQ's Swordsman (6.60) vs Genghis Khan's Archer (4.43)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Combat Odds: 87.0%
Turn 191, 365 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: (City Attack: -30%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: VQ's Swordsman is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: VQ's Swordsman is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: VQ's Swordsman is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 23 (64/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 23 (41/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 23 (18/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: VQ's Swordsman is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: VQ's Swordsman is hit for 17 (15/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: VQ's Swordsman has defeated Genghis Khan's Archer!
Turn 191, 365 AD: VQ's Axeman (5.50) vs Genghis Khan's Archer (3.01)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Combat Odds: 96.3%
Turn 191, 365 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: VQ's Axeman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 21 (28/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 21 (7/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Genghis Khan's Archer is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: VQ's Axeman has defeated Genghis Khan's Archer!
Turn 191, 365 AD: You have captured Tiflis!!!
Turn 191, 365 AD: You have destroyed the city of Tiflis!!!
Turn 191, 365 AD: Washington adopts Vassalage!

Turn 192, 380 AD: You have trained a Spearman in Birka. Work has now begun on a Library.
Turn 192, 380 AD: The borders of Jelling have expanded!
Turn 192, 380 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant (9.60) vs VQ's Spearman (9.20)
Turn 192, 380 AD: Combat Odds: 65.0%
Turn 192, 380 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 192, 380 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 192, 380 AD: (Plot Defense: +20%)
Turn 192, 380 AD: (Combat: +100%)
Turn 192, 380 AD: VQ's Spearman is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 192, 380 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 192, 380 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 192, 380 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 192, 380 AD: VQ's Spearman is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 192, 380 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 192, 380 AD: VQ's Spearman is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 192, 380 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 19 (5/100HP)
Turn 192, 380 AD: VQ's Spearman is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 192, 380 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 19 (0/100HP)
Turn 192, 380 AD: VQ's Spearman has defeated Gandhi's War Elephant!
Turn 192, 380 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant (9.60) vs VQ's Axeman (8.25)
Turn 192, 380 AD: Combat Odds: 71.2%
Turn 192, 380 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 192, 380 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 192, 380 AD: (Plot Defense: +20%)
Turn 192, 380 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 192, 380 AD: VQ's Axeman is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 192, 380 AD: VQ's Axeman is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 192, 380 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 192, 380 AD: VQ's Axeman is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 192, 380 AD: VQ's Axeman is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 192, 380 AD: VQ's Axeman is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 192, 380 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant has defeated VQ's Axeman!
Turn 192, 380 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman (6.60) vs VQ's Chariot (4.00)
Turn 192, 380 AD: Combat Odds: 96.0%
Turn 192, 380 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 192, 380 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 192, 380 AD: (City Attack: -10%)
Turn 192, 380 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 192, 380 AD: VQ's Chariot is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 192, 380 AD: VQ's Chariot is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 192, 380 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 192, 380 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 15 (55/100HP)
Turn 192, 380 AD: VQ's Chariot is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 192, 380 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 15 (40/100HP)
Turn 192, 380 AD: VQ's Chariot is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 192, 380 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman has defeated VQ's Chariot!
Turn 192, 380 AD: Gandhi's Axeman (5.50) vs VQ's Warrior (2.60)
Turn 192, 380 AD: Combat Odds: 99.3%
Turn 192, 380 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 192, 380 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 192, 380 AD: (Plot Defense: +20%)
Turn 192, 380 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 192, 380 AD: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 192, 380 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 192, 380 AD: VQ's Warrior is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 192, 380 AD: VQ's Warrior is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 192, 380 AD: VQ's Warrior is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 192, 380 AD: VQ's Warrior is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 192, 380 AD: Gandhi's Axeman has defeated VQ's Warrior!

Turn 193, 395 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant (9.46) vs VQ's Axeman (6.50)
Turn 193, 395 AD: Combat Odds: 82.2%
Turn 193, 395 AD: (Extra Combat: -30%)
Turn 193, 395 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 193, 395 AD: (Plot Defense: +20%)
Turn 193, 395 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 16 (75/100HP)
Turn 193, 395 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 16 (59/100HP)
Turn 193, 395 AD: VQ's Axeman is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 193, 395 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 16 (43/100HP)
Turn 193, 395 AD: VQ's Axeman is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 193, 395 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 16 (27/100HP)
Turn 193, 395 AD: VQ's Axeman is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 193, 395 AD: VQ's Axeman is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 193, 395 AD: VQ's Axeman is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 193, 395 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant has defeated VQ's Axeman!
Turn 193, 395 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman (5.04) vs VQ's Spearman (3.48)
Turn 193, 395 AD: Combat Odds: 89.6%
Turn 193, 395 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 193, 395 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 193, 395 AD: (Plot Defense: +20%)
Turn 193, 395 AD: (City Attack: -10%)
Turn 193, 395 AD: (Combat: +25%)
Turn 193, 395 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 17 (53/100HP)
Turn 193, 395 AD: VQ's Spearman is hit for 22 (38/100HP)
Turn 193, 395 AD: VQ's Spearman is hit for 22 (16/100HP)
Turn 193, 395 AD: VQ's Spearman is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 193, 395 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman has defeated VQ's Spearman!
Turn 193, 395 AD: Birka (VQ) has been captured by the Indian Empire!!!
Turn 193, 395 AD: The Church of the Nativity has been built in a far away land!
Turn 193, 395 AD: Genghis Khan's Keshik (6.60) vs VQ's Chariot (4.00)
Turn 193, 395 AD: Combat Odds: 97.4%
Turn 193, 395 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 193, 395 AD: Genghis Khan's Keshik is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 193, 395 AD: Genghis Khan's Keshik is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 193, 395 AD: Genghis Khan's Keshik is hit for 15 (55/100HP)
Turn 193, 395 AD: VQ's Chariot is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 193, 395 AD: Genghis Khan's Keshik is hit for 15 (40/100HP)
Turn 193, 395 AD: VQ's Chariot is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 193, 395 AD: Genghis Khan's Keshik is hit for 15 (25/100HP)
Turn 193, 395 AD: Genghis Khan's Keshik is hit for 15 (10/100HP)
Turn 193, 395 AD: VQ's Chariot is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 193, 395 AD: VQ's Chariot is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 193, 395 AD: Genghis Khan's Keshik has defeated VQ's Chariot!

Turn 194, 410 AD: VQ's Archer (3.00) vs Genghis Khan's Keshik (0.81)
Turn 194, 410 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 194, 410 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 194, 410 AD: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 194, 410 AD: Genghis Khan's Keshik is hit for 16 (0/100HP)
Turn 194, 410 AD: VQ's Archer has defeated Genghis Khan's Keshik!
Turn 194, 410 AD: St. John (Great Prophet) has been born in Nidaros (VQ)!

Turn 195, 425 AD: Washington has completed The Colossus!

Turn 196, 440 AD: The Hanging Gardens has been built in a far away land!

Turn 197, 455 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Jelling!
Turn 197, 455 AD: Hannibal adopts Bureaucracy!

Turn 198, 470 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Jelling!
Turn 198, 470 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Uppsala!
Turn 198, 470 AD: VQ's Spearman (4.80) vs Genghis Khan's Keshik (3.87)
Turn 198, 470 AD: Combat Odds: 69.5%
Turn 198, 470 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 198, 470 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 198, 470 AD: (Combat: -100%)
Turn 198, 470 AD: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 198, 470 AD: VQ's Spearman is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 198, 470 AD: Genghis Khan's Keshik is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 198, 470 AD: VQ's Spearman is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 198, 470 AD: Genghis Khan's Keshik is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 198, 470 AD: VQ's Spearman is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 198, 470 AD: Genghis Khan's Keshik is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 198, 470 AD: VQ's Spearman is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 198, 470 AD: Genghis Khan's Keshik is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 198, 470 AD: VQ's Spearman is hit for 17 (15/100HP)
Turn 198, 470 AD: VQ's Spearman is hit for 17 (0/100HP)
Turn 198, 470 AD: Genghis Khan's Keshik has defeated VQ's Spearman!
Turn 198, 470 AD: Your Spearman has died trying to attack a Keshik!
Turn 198, 470 AD: VQ's Archer (3.00) vs Genghis Khan's Keshik (1.04)
Turn 198, 470 AD: Combat Odds: 99.6%
Turn 198, 470 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 198, 470 AD: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 198, 470 AD: Genghis Khan's Keshik is hit for 15 (0/100HP)
Turn 198, 470 AD: VQ's Archer has defeated Genghis Khan's Keshik!
Turn 198, 470 AD: Your Archer has destroyed a Keshik!
Turn 198, 470 AD: Genghis Khan has 350 gold available for trade
Turn 198, 470 AD: Hannibal has 5 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 198, 470 AD: Washington has 4 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 198, 470 AD: New Tech(s) to trade: Washington

Turn 199, 485 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Jelling!
Turn 199, 485 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Jelling!
Turn 199, 485 AD: You have discovered Meditation!
Turn 199, 485 AD: You have discovered Monotheism!
Turn 199, 485 AD: You have discovered Theology!
Turn 199, 485 AD: The borders of Uppsala have expanded!
Turn 199, 485 AD: Deal Canceled: Open Borders to Hannibal for Open Borders
Turn 199, 485 AD: Ferdinand Magellan (Great Merchant) has been born in a far away land!
Turn 199, 485 AD: New Tech(s) to trade: Genghis Khan, Isabella

Turn 200, 500 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Uppsala!
Turn 200, 500 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Jelling!

Cosmichail

Mar 13, 2007, 01:56 AM

Not surprised by what has happened. I think we did go wonder happy instead of focusing of the possibility that we could get overrun. I have found that when warlords AI has room to grow they can become quite powerful.

I believe this is all the more reason to beeline to CS/machinery. Crossbows for counter against melee and beserkers for attack. Even better to have pikes too but I'd be happy with berserkers. Nidaros hopefully since this happened is doing nothing but pumping out units. We can come back from this if we concentrate on military alone. Enough swords/axes/cats/spears should do the trick for now. If we can bulid Heroic Epic I think it should be built in Nidaros as I don't think we care down the road what it needs (you know the usual oxford/wall street combo or globe). We don't really have a lot of production other than Nidaros and we definitely need to protect the iron up there and horses.

We weren't prepared to take on Khan and now must be on the defensive which is always bad. We need to turn this around and get on the offensive. Same with Gandhi since he is spending his time building units as we saw with all those Triremes we should get him on the defensive by attacking.

I definitely find Berserkers quite effective at wearing down AI's. Example by using galley/galleon/or transport use berserkers to attack weak coastal cities. Just kill all but one unit. The AI will scramble to defend and regarrison. Rinse and repeat and you have him on the defensive. Doesn't work too well with cities of high culture at least not until frigates. The berserkers also need to be at least CR2 or 3 to be effective.

I see that Healium is up too. Wow not the best time to start. At least if you are up to it Healium.

Cosmichail

Mar 13, 2007, 02:31 AM

Just looked at the save and I don't things are quite as bad as it seems. (although we only got one city to pull us out of this one.)

We need Feudalism for better defense and HBR for horse archers which are great for quick pillaging and countering siege weapons. We can get both from Mehmed and/or Washington and I think we could even get HBR from Isabella so trading with Washington wouldn't be needed. Either way turn off research for a while to upgrade some archers to longbows especially the iron/gold cities as they are vunerable. Birka can be recaptured but not with the current soldiers there. We need at least two or three more cats to take it back and we should.

Also we need to curve the unhappy by revolting to HR right away and going to theocracy at the same time for the XP points. Our nets are undefended so we also need ships badly. Unless we are building chariots for MP duty I don't see the need. We should build cats for a bit.

As to Jelling it's a goner and to be honest I think we overexpanded. We didn't need that city but I don't like loosing Birka which had a lot of commerce.

I don't think we are ready to run for the hills yet. Far from that I would say and once we go to HR/theocracy (probably 2 turns anarchy) we at least will curtail the unhappy. Better 2 turns of anarchy now then have unhappy in our most important cities to the point that gold city is starving.

I see enough troops there to do damage and building cats is what we need to accompany them. GK is production lite so I don't think he'll come on too strong. If we can make peace with him we should for now. Maybe razing another city will change his mind. Then get our house in order and keep a strong defense on Gandhi's side. Then return to war with GK and finish him.

Although our relationship with Izzy looks good I don't trust her. She may be cautious but I have seen that before and eventually will slip to annoyed at some point. Good thing we didn't build the TGL as it would be useless to us in this game. I would say the same for Mehmed so don't count on him being cordial for long. So trading with Washington imo doesn't make a difference either way as eventually as long as we are Hindus we can't change the fact that our relationships with Izzy/Mehmed will deteriorate. EDIT: no state religion may appease Izzy for a bit but she will attack even with no state religion.

bobrath

Mar 13, 2007, 09:57 AM

I think the only building(s) even attempted during my turns were the library in Birka and granary in Jelling. Neither completed and were actually preempted by unit whips.

We do possibly need a barracks in our far north city.

As far as ships go... I haven't seen even a murmur of ships coming around the north side, so for the mid term we should be fine as Ghandi concentrates on our west coast. I've seen at least 6 tiremes and 3 galleys out there (+ 1 tireme from Khaan) on our west coast. I'm camping the galley next to our capital to protect that resource, one tireme is watching our east coast (parked outside Khaaan's city). The other tireme is still scouting the known (southern) world - we're getting closer to circumnavigating btw. I'd really like to get optics - if only so a single caravel could explore the greater northern part of our world and find us a refuge off Ghandi's island.

I agree that changing religions to NSR would be a temporary fix to relations, but I wonder if that time frame might not benefit us in terms of tech trading. Hannibal just out and out hates us and refuses to trade. I'm thinking that tech trading may be our best way out of the mess we're in.

I spent all my turns with research going to CoL - mainly with the idea of trade bait on the other side. Remember for Beserkers we need both Machinery AND CS.

Make sure our first trade with Mehmed is a good one. IIRC the first trade you make has a greater impact then any later ones (see Izzy for an example).

The one good thing for us right now is that we only really border two civs - Khaaan and Ghandi. Anyone else that wants to come after us has a very long sail AND needs OB with one of our two neighbors.

I left the civic revolts until the group could discuss. I do agree that HR (for happy) and Theocracy (for exp) will definitely help.

One other note - at this point still no WW in any of our cities. All battles have taken place within our borders. That will change when we hit Burka or Khaaan's cities.

Cosmichail

Mar 13, 2007, 02:39 PM

Going to NSR at this point may alleviate stresses with other AI but imo would hurt us as then we don't have the XP bonus from theocracy. CR2 swords do a lot more then CR1. We could then consider vassalage to have the ability to build CR2 swords should we acquire Feudalism. So we are going to NSR just to appease civs that can't get to us other than galleys for now? Cripple our military and run around with one promotion and waste a lot more units to accomplish anything but yet we only have only city that produces. This makes no sense to me and going to NSR is a bad move at this point and vassalage is expensive. Once bureaucracy becomes available then can't use it as with our capitol that 50% bonus is a big help. What surprised me is that namliaM went to Hinduism right away rather than hold off until we could decide if we should or not.

It's 500ad already and we don't have one city over 10 pop. Gandhi has a monster of 20 and enough resources there to sustain it. Although whipping is effective method to get things fast in the long term it ends up hurting us and having cities that are low pop.

My concern too is this that if we don't speed to superior units we may find ourselves up against maces before we can get to berserkers. I think trying to lightbulb astro at this point isn't a concern since we need a very strong military soon which should have berserkers. I do understand we need CS/machinery for them and since we want optics machinery shouldn't be too far off.

We had HR some time now . Why didn't we revolt sooner as the happy would help us. We discovered HR in 25BC and now it is 500 ad. Would not the happy during all those years made a difference in our growth??????
I can see holding off until the Great Library was built but that was in 65ad and then still no revolt to HR. HR is 1 turn of anarchy and if we do two civics at once I do believe 2 turns so it wouldn't have mattered and losing the happy growth for that amount of time seems like a bad move. In my SP games I always revolt immediately to HR when I get it. Building chariots make great MP's and having a city of more than 10 can help. Again here too we are weak there aren't that many finished tiles in our empire. So even if we had larger cities they would end up working unfinished tiles???? 3 turnsets have gone by since my play and I don't really see any progress in our land improvements. Yep the odd cottage here and there but with all that jungle we should have built a lot more workers.

B#tch list.....

1. HR available since 25BC
2. Revolted to Hinduism too early
3. Built worker too early
4. Researched archery losing valuable turns. (archery is an easy trade)
5. City settling??? Why the need for cyans when we know already we go to war with GK. To waste settlers on chokepoints when war is inevitable also after some thought made no sense to me. Better to settle on spots that provide us with the necessary commerce/production than just to choke off AI. Jelling is a terrible city and I don't mind it getting razed. Even the other Cyan would have been better elsewhere. (the spot isn't bad but the spot south of Nidaros would have kept gems for us and more controllable)
6. 500ad and not even one cottage beyond a hamlet????
7. We are in a war with a neighbour but build wonders instead???

Ok those cyans to be fair would have done better once the tiles were finished however with so few workers it would have been a ways off.

Unless we get our act together this game is going south. Our civ looks like something of the BC's not AD's. We will be down to 4 cities after Jelling gets razed. 4 cities and not one over 10 pop. It will take some doing to get us out of this. I am sorry to complain but I am perplexed at how badly we are playing. With all these SG pro's I thought we'd be doing better.

Lastly we need to play more as a team.

namliaM

Mar 13, 2007, 02:44 PM

Roster
namliaM -- +1 gmt (Actually 0 atm due to DST)
Greyfox -- +8 gmt
Maquis -- -7 gmt
Bobrath -- -5 gmt > Went and lost Birka :(
Healium -- +1 gmt -- Auto skip due to a Herniated disk *Good luck man* and be well
Scowler -- gmt > Up for recovery??
Frankcor-- -5 gmt <Lurker>
Cosmichail -- -5gmt > On deck for who know what with this game :confused:

IIRC Scowler's best available times are in the weekend, maybe swap with Cosmic?

Why build a workshop near Nadiros when we have the Plains hill still unmined??? I think other than the hills we want basicaly cottages around Nadiros...

Revolting to Theocracy and Monarchy seems a given right now...
If we drop to NSR we lose the -3 causing hannibal to be unhapping with us, but I think we need Theocracy (and the second promotion) harder than we need the techs right now.

We can trade:
Isabella:
Theology for Currency/Calander
Isa needs/wants Feudalism (Mehmed?)
Washington:
Theology for Currency/Calander both +10g
Theology + Lit for Currency/Calander + HBR + 10g
Mehmed II:
Theo + MC for Feudalism
Hannibal (who is TECH LEADER btw) we cannot trade due to -3 for religion. But he has Machinery too :drool:

I think we basicaly want to keep like an Axe, Spear and Archer in Uppsala (yes one for basicaly each type) get the other units out to Birka and retake it. The warrior goes to Nadiros for MP I think.

Birka is STILL our city as we are "culturaly dominant" there even if we dont own the land there anymore... Culturaly it is still considered our city!
If/when we get Birka back we should settle Orange and Yellow ASAP too, while building up for Khaaan and defending on Gandhi, make sure to pack Spears on both, Gandhi in particular... I cannot believe we didnt have atleast 1 spear in Birka if not spears...:wallbash:
Gandhi is beeing much more aggresive than my biggest wish... I had hopes he would come and capture us (later on) but this soon .. :clap: :worship: to Gandhi and :spank: to us....

bobrath

Mar 13, 2007, 02:56 PM

Spears are only so good against WEs. I managed to whip one into Birka when the first landing occured and it was the only unit that even made it through the turn. As long as we have coastal forests/jungles we should be camping defenders there to force the landings to take place on plains/poor defense choices.

I think everyone is a bit guilty of assuming that Ghandi was going to be a war-wimp. He's dropping quality stacks on our cities at key points.

I appreciate your desire to found the more core cities of orange and yellow, but we first need to go about cleaning up the mess. Taking the time out to build a settler (and defenders) means fewer offensive units to keep Khaaan and Ghandi at bay.

I agree that NSR is probably the sub optimal choice UNLESS it gives us a massive jolt in trading ability. That's doubtful and (yes I agree here too) we need the bonus to exp. However, how many of our cities have the needed religion? I ask because its something I didn't notice.

Not revolting to HR was a conscious choice on my part. I didn't want to lose even a single turn in getting units out in the case of a dogpile. It seems now that we have a little room for the dual revolt and I say go for it.

namliaM

Mar 13, 2007, 03:28 PM

:agree: :agree: and :agree:

Revolting to HR will cause 2 turns of revolt and adding theocracy doesnt add a third turn so why not?
The 2 most important cities (Nadiros and Haithabu -the gold city-) have for sure our religion, making a good enough reason to keep it for now.

Spear + 100% + Culture defence + fortification is a good match for a WE. Atleast it is much better than an Archer or Axe....

I also must agree that (offensive) units right now takes just about precidence over anything to get back control over things, Birka is more than just commerce right now it is +:) as well that we are missing due to the gems. Which is why Yellow would be nice ;)

Cosmichail

Mar 13, 2007, 04:17 PM

Why build a workshop near Nadiros when we have the Plains hill still unmined??? I think other than the hills we want basicaly cottages around Nadiros...

What the heck is this? We have a ton of unworked land and we build a workshop which pre guilds/chemistry yields zip. A poor use of our workers and although a mine would have been better but Nidaros probably couldn't work it anyways.

If/when we get Birka back we should settle Orange and Yellow ASAP too, while building up for Khaaan and defending on Gandhi,

mmmmm don't think so....4 cities (well five eventually) and only one really produces and tie it up with building settlers. Build offensive units until Khan is finished I'd say.

Again I say what is done is done but I had to vent there earlier. Looks like we are trying to fulfill the variant too early. PS: When I saw all those Triremes showing up and galleys I had a gut feeling Gandhi wasn't going to be an easy neighbour.

I could do a swap with Scowler if he can't play. I see our priorties as this:

1. Trade for Feudalsim/HBR (primary)
2. Trade for Currency/Calender (secondary)
3. Leave Uppsala as suggested with one of each and remainder join stack at Birka. That should be enough to take it back.
4. Build nothing but military in Nidaros during my turnset.
5. Revolt to HR/theocracy.
6. Get a few more workers so we can hook up those happy resources once we take back Birka. (maybe)

Whoever follows me can worry about settling but let's give Khan a bloody nose if we can. PS I won't be whipping at all our empire is so stunted it needs to grow and with HR can.

healium

Mar 13, 2007, 06:45 PM

I see that Healium is up too. Wow not the best time to start. At least if you are up to it Healium.

i´m recovering but not up to playing or typing long posts. right now i can sit for a couple minutes max. so i just look into the forum from time to time. the doc promised that i should get a lot better by next week. really looking forward to participating, but not possible right now.

Cosmichail

Mar 13, 2007, 07:09 PM

Some more thoughts on gameplay.....

Once we get HR we should be able to get Nidaros red face back to working and moving those workers to plains hill and mining will give us an extra 4 hammers in Nidaros hopefully bringing the speed of building say a sword from 3 turns to 2. At least if that's not the case there will be overflow to the next unit with the extra hammers. I feel that we should have the production superiority and should be able to subdue Gandhi and GK. (EDIT: Not sure but if we don't have forge in Nidaros we may want to get that and unfortunately the only way I think is whipping as we don't have time to let it build on it's own)

Getting back those two red faces in gold city (geez I keep forgetting the name) will deal with the starvation unhappy. I don't like seeing workers on the coast with fog there as Gandhi could just land a couple of units there too. They should be protected and will let the chariot finish in Iron city (forget that name too) DOH... and use that to protect workers.

I also notice too that GK has longbows. We are going to need a lot of cats for that episode. Depending on the promotion of course but can be problematic for swords.

Research wise once code of laws is done I think we should think about machinery. I don't think Hannibal will be the answer there. Even if we do remove the -3 religious negative iirc Hannibal won't trade until he's at least pleased. (I could be wrong but I do recall that with other civs like Ragnar for instance)

Now I won't play until Scowler wants a swap and glad to hear you are feeling somewhat better Healium. I can relate to pain since I have two artificial hips myself. (RA)

namliaM

Mar 13, 2007, 11:48 PM

mmmmm don't think so....4 cities (well five eventually) and only one really produces and tie it up with building settlers. Build offensive units until Khan is finished I'd say. ASAP doesnt mean now... Gandhi first and I think we can mix in the two settlers after that...

1 & 2. Currency is a real high priority for me, atleast it will give us some extra $$$. HBR less so as we do not have the money to upgrade and HA's will take some time to produce. Also IMHO their use is pretty limited.
3. Perhaps leave an additional spear as Keshiks can move fast and can be a real pain if left alone.
4. Build nothing but military anywhere I guess...
5. MAYBE we can hold of on the revolt for a turn or 2 to save some cash. Build every unit to within 1 turn (i.e. dont finish the Catapult in Nadiros) and finish everything right after revolting to Theo. On the otherhand we need the units ASAP and waiting for HR .... not to long I think...
6. I think we still have our 7 workers (not sure), 7 is a good number and I think the gem-mines are still in tact. The only thing need doing is the Spice, and we need some units to COVER the workers while connecting it.

Whipping is THE way to get units out fast, i.e. Uppsala can grow fast with that corn. I do suggest bringing it along, just to make sure.
spoken like a true whipmaster??

(EDIT: Not sure but if we don't have forge in Nidaros we may want to get that and unfortunately the only way I think is whipping as we don't have time to let it build on it's own)
No forge (anywhere) including Haithabu... A forge (with 1 turn of production) is a 4 pop whip!
At 20 (raw) hammers a turn we get 5 bonus hammers. At 180/5 = 36 turns to earn back the investment... Worth it? In the long run, offcourse, but right now I dont know... At the cost of 3 or 4 pop? I dont know.
If you do whip it try to MM it to just over the pop's, meaning just over 135 (4pop whip) or 90 hammers (3pop whip) left, this way we generate 40+ overflow which will get the 25% bonus.

On the swap, yes lets wait a day or so for input and/or Scowlers reaction. If there is no reaction in 18-24 hours from now I think we can move along and swap. Allowing you (cosmic) to play Thursday and possibly report, then allow us to look at things Friday comment, input and for scowler to play over the weekend.

Scowler

Mar 14, 2007, 06:51 AM

Cosmic, please take your turns now. I won't have time to focus on the game until the weekend, due to work.

bobrath

Mar 14, 2007, 08:41 AM

IMO, our cities are whipped as far down as I care to go. I don't think that whipping the forge out is a good trade off at this point. 4 pop is a *ton* of regrowth and pretty much neuters that city for the duration of this war with Khaaaan. <-- Exactly what we don't need.

I suggest leaving the forge for later.

namliaM

Mar 14, 2007, 09:10 AM

I suggest leaving the forge for later.
I think that is what I said too, except .... I took more words :lol: and left the option more open.... in the end...

Generaly speaking ... In a city producing 20 hpt will take 9 turns to build the forge then 36 turns to catch up to not building the forge. This is 45 turns at 20hpt = 900 hammers = 15 catapults to be produced which we sorely need now rather than 12 turns later for the next in 45 turns...

With Scowlers short but informative message...
Roster
namliaM -- +1 gmt (Actually 0 atm due to DST)
Greyfox -- +8 gmt
Maquis -- -7 gmt
Bobrath -- -5 gmt > Went and lost Birka
Healium -- +1 gmt -- Auto skip due to a Herniated disk *Good luck man* and be well
Scowler -- gmt > On deck for who know what with this game
Frankcor-- -5 gmt <Lurker>
Cosmichail -- -5gmt > Up for recovery??

Cosmichail

Mar 14, 2007, 01:57 PM

Thanks Scowler will play likely Thursday morning.

namliaM I concur about HBR in that we don't have the production "room" to build them so I won't worry about that unless we can get it as a bonus.

Research

So top priorty would be Feudalism/Currency/calendar which will get done.

Forges

As to forges forget it for now but I was just thinking that we have MC and with forge whipping is better but it's just too costly right now.

Operation Uppsala

Uppsala can grow fast with that corn. I do suggest bringing it along, just to make sure.

If you look that corn will be pillaged next turn by Keshik. He will die to our spear but our corn will be gone I'm sure. Uppsala is unhappy with whipping and grows in 1 turn. I am inclined even with whipping unhappy to go ahead and whip that spear. Since we will be in HR the happy factor will be offset by troops.

Operation Jelling

I also intend to remove the troops from Jelling and gather those forces in Uppsala with that axe. Leave the axe behind in Uppsala and once Gandhi razes Jelling take those forces out. Only problem is no spears over there but one on the way to Jelling iirc. Send the warrior to Haithabu for MP duty.

War Elephants

WE's can withstand spears fairly well in that it often takes two spears to take them out. Depending on spear promotion one with combat I will have like 70% odds against WE. In warlords that pretty much death. I even find 90% a crapshoot these days and won't even risk generals at those high odds.

Revolting

Holding off I don't think we should do unless you can convince we should hold off. By revolting (2 turns of anarchy) we get those 3 red faces back in Nidaros and Haithabu. Uppsala can then be whipped and suffer no unhappy beyond it's pop. I am inclined to revolt on first turn but explain to me if I can do that better. Well actually second turn as I want the cat/spear to join forces. Whip spear and cat is ready in one turn.

Here's an idea to help our diplomatic situation:

Isabella's favourite civic is "theocracy" so that will help us with her.
Mehmed's favourite civic is "vassalage".

To get the extra XP points should we venture to revolting to HR/theocracy/vassalage to gain favour with Mehmed?

As we know these are cumulative and as time goes get better and better.

CR3 units much faster

By revolting to vassalage, HR, Theocracy our units will start out with 7 out of 10 XP points meaning in three battles will get to CR3 level. Although sometimes I think they get 2 points for a battle.

We will also get a GG much faster which is now at 18/30 and I suggest we use him for a super healer since we are up against longbows. Once we get to bureaucracy we can change that again.

Ok the benefits of vassalage:

1. better relationship with Mehmed (we need some friends right now)
2. 7 free units
3. Units will get to CR3 level faster and GG will pop sooner too

Once we get GG we will be able to build HE but hold off on that too since I feel the only thing we should build for the next ten turns is military. Where do we want that. Nidaros with forge is already producing quite well maybe HE should go into Haithabu.

Again I am not playing until Thursday morning in order for the team to have some input.

@Bobrath I wasn't complaining at you in particular about HR if anything I understand but I just didn't understand why we didn't do it 25 turns ago. 25 turns of extra happy would have made all the difference in how our empire would look now.

As to the workshop at Nidaros I too understand that when one is under attack the old panic button lights up and we don't make the best decisions under those circumstances. I have done silly things during an invasion too and wondered WTF.

Good stuff on nearing to get the circumnavigate bonus. That will make a big difference in our sea faring abilities. Only if we had some ships to practice with. We are a sea faring people and have what 2 ships. Gandhi is a landlover and he has 6 ships sitting at our shores.

Research

After COL I think going for Machinery/Optics should be next. Optics will give us caravels and we then can sink some of Gandhi's ships.

Production

Nidaros has producton base production of 21 hammers. Once red face is gone work another plains mine +4 hammers= 25 base production. It will still take three turns for first unit lets sword at 60 hammers but the second unit will take 2. 3X25=75 hammers overflow=15 next sword at 60-15=45-50=5 overflow.

Haithabu/Borgevin (the guy that used to play ABBA lol) can potentially offer better production by some workers builds.

Haithabu

Once workers are done with plains farm move them to grass hill and mine one of them. Base hammers there 7 + 3 + 1 from grass mine/plains farm eventually = 11 base hammers. Build archers in 4 turns. (this city needs another farm at some point) (second thought may just move workers to plain hills there too and mine that in that case 7+4+1 = 12 base hammers) If we do that and have HE there axes/swords/cats/spears would build in three turns there.

Same goes for Borgevin so once those workers are done there move them to Borgevin and add another mine.

Longbows

Longbows are expensive at 75 hammers and since we are on the offensive I don't think we should bother for now and the only real benefit from Feudalism is vassalage. Normally I never use this civic (too expensive) but under these circumstances I think it will give us a considerable boost and improve relations with Mehmed.

Downside of vassalage

Maybe having 7 free units saves us money but yet vassalage is an expensive civic so science will likely suffer. It is pertinent to take back Birka as without it our economy blows. Our science is going to drop to 40% or lower but once Jelling is razed that will change a bit. 0% research only yields 17 gold so any units we acquire is thru whipping/building and whipping isn't an option I think for Nidaros. Uppsala I will whip that spear and am not waiting for extra XP points for the cat/spear as they will gain experience in the battlefield or die.

Once things calm down Nidaros is a prime candidate for forge which with those hammers can build in 8 turns (25 base hammers). So base hammers of 25 plus 25% bonus from forge=31 hammers building swords/axes/cats/spear in two turns. So we should at some point think about this but I would prefer we had a semi strong production city to take the slack whilst Nidaros build forge. (not right now but later) Haithabu seems to the city to do that but again we need a 3f farm there to get more production.

So bottom line on civics:

*Vassalage/theocracy/HR = 3 turns of anarchy
(we have enough troops to hold off until then)
Theocracy/HR = 2 turns of anarchy

*bonus here is the extra XP points faster GG/CR3 units and better relations with Mehmed.

EDIT: With currency our economy will improve so vassalage wouldn't sting as hard other than the 1 turn of anarchy. We will have anarchy for bureaucracy so we are only talking about 1 turn here.

namliaM

Mar 14, 2007, 02:21 PM

GG Points I thought were only earned by battle XP not by barracks or civics... The benifits of Vassalage I dont know, yes we earn browny points... But we lose production capacity from Buro. More units is better than fewer (better promoted) units. And with Theocracy alone we get the 2nd promotion anyway. the +2 for vassalage goes towards an earlier 3rd promotion....
I dont think we need/want vassalage.

Abandoning Jelling might well be the thing to do, it will get taking anyway. It saves in a couple of ways... We save troops and Gandhi no get no XPs.
I am hoping for gandhi to hold on to Jelling as his land city from where he can send troops to capture the rest of our empire (if/when the time comes :sad: )

WEs on offence vs a combat 1 spear should be on the down side of the odds. Yes 70% might be right... damned thing on offence is that the Spear will never be vs the WE but rather Axe or somesort.
Still Spear > Axe in our case on defence....

Holding of on revolting would save us a few turns of upkeep, maybe... It was just an option to throw out there. Feel free to ignore it... As for building/finishing units prior to revolting, that is one thing I wouldnt do. XPs... why waste them if it is a 2 turn delay in production?

IIRC you get 2 xps on battles with less than 98% probable win chance, xps go up as probabilites go down 10xp is the cap on any one battle again IIRC.

HE IIRC is a marble small wonder, we should not start it any time soon and/or untill we can get that Marble back up. We can choose and pick at that time...
GG I am allways torn between +2 XP for more units or one super unit. For now I think short term is our goal, this would fit the healer/super unit vs the instructor.

Cosmichail

Mar 14, 2007, 02:53 PM

But we lose production capacity from Buro.

I know it's late there and maybe you didn't read my entire post but we don't even have CS yet????????? So no buro bonus geez if we had that we'd have production of 30 some odd hammers there pumping out swords every two turns. Pay attention now there is a test later......:p

I am hoping for gandhi to hold on to Jelling as his land city from where he can send troops to capture the rest of our empire (if/when the time comes )

Aaaah it's only 1 pop doesn't it autoraze.

As for building/finishing units prior to revolting, that is one thing I wouldnt do. XPs... why waste them if it is a 2 turn delay in production?

I agree but am worried that Gandhi may land more troops. He has three galleys sitting there and thanks to the warlords patch we haven't got a clue what's there. Since you are captain I will respect your opinion here and hold off. Like you said more units better than fewer promoted ones. (mmm kind of contradicting yourself here):lol:

IIRC you get 2 xps on battles with less than 98% probable win chance, xps go up as probabilites go down 10xp is the cap on any one battle again IIRC.

Learned something new thank you. And you're probably right about XP's so we have like 12 to go for GG. I have to watch that to know for sure unless you are absolutely sure about it. Of course the creators of Civ IV never thought to make that info available in civipedia.

HE IIRC is a marble small wonder, we should not start it any time soon and/or untill we can get that Marble back up. We can choose and pick at that time...

Of course again you didn't read my entire post (I put a lot of work into that but I am guilty of not always reading all your posts either)

GG I am allways torn between +2 XP for more units or one super unit. For now I think short term is our goal, this would fit the healer/super unit vs the instructor.

I personally never settle them and always use them as generals. Why because I just love generals. Much like the armies I so much miss from CivIII. Keeping an advance going is much more important I think then a few points.

Diplomacy

Here we go again:

Isabella with theocracy will gain positive points and should be able to do some negotiating.

Mehmed on the other hand will slip easily the other way and we loose another trade partner. (actually I am surprised he will trade at cautious) That vassalage bonus will keep him on our side for a bit longer. But if you feel that isn't worth and have only Isabella as trading partner which too will slip into negative points then I'm fine with it. Washington doesn't like Mehmed and vice versa so if we trade with Mehmed Washington gets negative. So keeping Mehmed on our side for a bit longer may get us some more techs. As you know those type of civics cumulate over time and Mehmed can be a teching civ too. If we knew for sure that Hannibal would trade at cautious then NSR may be the way to go and use vasslage for XP points. Of course then we don't gain bonus with Isabella for theocracy but loose the religion negative.

At this point I am inclined to do the vassalge/theo/HR as it doesn't slow down unit production BECAUSE WE AREN"T EVEN IN BURO HELLOOOOOOO

EDIT: I can't believe I double checked again. That damn mod too adds to the time to load the game. Just to give you an idea of how bad our base commerce is CS in 43 turns. NOT GOOD....

As to research I forget that Compass is needed and probably good to go for next for the harbors but then we don't have the umph to build them. I still like this path=Machinery-compass-optics... Yes please provide input although it doesn't matter as with 3 turns of anarchy and 6 turns of COL which will drop it will be up to Scowler.

bobrath

Mar 14, 2007, 03:07 PM

Those three galleys dropped of the invasion force north of Jelling. So there may still be units in one of them, but I don't know.

I do like the idea of making the trade for feudalism and then doing the triple civic revolt. I'm hoping its only 2 turns for all three instead of 3 turns, but ymmv.

Maquis

Mar 14, 2007, 06:22 PM

Aaaah it's only 1 pop doesn't it autoraze.

It might, but I don't remember exactly how culture works into the equation... I think that even a size 1 city will not autoraze, if there is enough culture in it??

Cosmichail

Mar 14, 2007, 07:12 PM

I thought if one recaptures a city that has any culture from previous ownership then a 1 pop city does not autoraze. In this case Gandhi has no culture invested in Jelling so I think it will autoraze. I could be wrong as I have had that happen with barb cities where I thought it would autoraze but it didn't? (1 pop)

If it doesn't, better yet as it will give Gandhi something to garrison (committing troops) and more time for us to re group and kick him off the island. Although I wasn't crazy about Jelling having a good look at it with the right combo of farms/mines it may be a good production center for us.

namliaM

Mar 15, 2007, 12:13 AM

don't even have CS yet?????????
:blush: Uhm, my mistake?! I ussually have CS way before I can consider going to vassalage... In this case bigger is better :) As in we are probably running the default civic in that category, and Vassalage is probably (much) better even if more expensive.

Aaaah it's only 1 pop doesn't it autoraze.
Nope it doesnt IIRC any city that has popped its borders (once) for any of its (previous) owners is not going to be autorazed. If it is razed it should be a decision of Gandhi's

I agree but am worried that Gandhi may land more troops.
If what bob said is true, I am willing to bet he has to go back for more.

Learned something new thank you. And you're probably right about XP's so we have like 12 to go for GG.
I am not sure, but nearly. I have never seen general XP go up from just building units. Any generals I have had born will have been from battles and not on the inner turn from building (yet) another unit. Ergo I am 99% certain.

Of course again you didn't read my entire post
NOT guilty your honor :mad:
I allways read all the posts all the time, just dont pick up on everything all the time, I guess. In any case it more so confirming than anything else.

I personally never settle them and always use them as generals. Well its a personal thing. But beeing able to build 5XP units in peace civics (no Vass or Theo) is a biggy. Getting CR or CG2 from the get go in your HE city really helps in keeping the advance going as you have more advanced units. CR2 is really (IMHO) that much better than CR1, further it improves the survival rate of your units, lowering the number you need to keep the advance going ;)

BECAUSE WE AREN"T EVEN IN BURO HELLOOOOOOO
Yeah yeah yeah, bla bla bla :p
As far as I am concerned, HR/Vass/Theo it is.

Tech wize, I think we want atleast Machinery next after CoL for the XBows. We can see after that what we need/want and/or can or cannot trade for.

@Bob or anyone who know it.... ymmv???

Cosmichail

Mar 15, 2007, 12:57 AM

I wondered too namliaM ymmv...believe or not I actually went looking in the forum for an explanation but got impatient.

It's good to know about Jelling as that will give us the opportunity to regroup as Gandhi will be tied up with garrisoning.

As for generals I only use them as generals when I have the necessary XP points and of course if I am stuck in NSR I will settle them but that's rare as 90% of the time I have theocracy/religion and some buddies. I just hate, hate fighting with single promoted units. Like you say CR2 is much, much better than CR1. I did play a game where I settled like 3 generals/west point and pentagon. Now that rocked. (Just an attempt to get super ships as I always build west point in coastal production city)

As to reading posts I am glad you read them but mine didn't sink in as I did mention once we get to Buro we could change again. I tend to scan over them and look for the most major points. So apoligies and hopefully apoligies accepted Captain Needa. :-)

So we are in agreement theo/HR/vassalage and hopefully Mehmed will stay with us long enough.

Here's another thought whilst I was looking at the map. We have found all the civs (7 right) but what about all that fog above those civs. There must be another landmass and hopefully not inhabited except for barbs. Maybe Gyathaar gave us a place to start over. So tech path wise Machinery/compass/optics will give us some idea what's up there.

namliaM

Mar 15, 2007, 02:00 AM

Wow cosmic, you are up early (or late) ...

YMMV on wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YMMV) as far as I can cather it mean something that he things it is 3 turns anarchy but when you actually do it things may be different...

Another landmass??? Like an earth map... a new world... Hmz... this would make Astronomy even more important IMHO.
Tho...
Rivals - 7 civs including Gandhi (who is locked in war with Ragnar)
Ghandi
Khaaan
Hannibal
Washington
Isabella
Mehmed
Thats 6, we are missing 1 arent we?? Or do we count as a rival/civ as well? We are a civ thats for sure, but are we a rival?

bobrath

Mar 15, 2007, 08:26 AM

Yup, ymmv = "your mileage may vary" and paraphrased nicely by namliam.

I think # of turns of anarchy depends on your tech age, number of civics changing, the age of the game, and other unknown items. I'd like to hope the triple civic switch is only 2 turns, but it may end up being 3.

namliaM

Mar 15, 2007, 08:33 AM

IIRC anarchy is governed by ~ of cities, # of pop and game speed. Not by age you are in, tho... there is offcourse a direct relation in pop count and age.... It is unlikely you have 20 cities at 20 pop in the ancient age, while in the modern times... quite possible...

Cosmichail

Mar 15, 2007, 05:27 PM

As discussed the first thing we do is make some trades. I make a smoke by trading with Washington but didn’t understand why Washington doesn’t get negative for trading with Mehmed but the other way around it does. This is the bad news as such but there is plenty of good news to follow and there maybe why and wherefores but I have to say that I had to continuously shuffle workers out of harms way making their position now look like poor planning.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g240/cosmichail/Civ4ScreenShot0469-1.jpg

Trade with Mehmed which I didn’t like giving him construction/theology as that’s like handing someone a loaded gun. It was either MC/theology or const/theology so I opted for the least beakers.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g240/cosmichail/Civ4ScreenShot0471-1.jpg

And this trade again skewed but what else is new. At least now we can hook up spices/sugar now. Too bad for losing the Stonehenge effect but time to move on I guess.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g240/cosmichail/Civ4ScreenShot0473-1.jpg

The smoke deal but due to bonus from trading/civic Mehmed did stay cautious.
(why didn’t I go to Isabella I just didn’t want to give her Feudalism for HBR) and why even bother with HBR? We will need it eventually for knights and Nidaros with 25 base hammers can build them in 3 turns. We should have a few around just for fast advancement in the event of an attack. Don’t worry we still can build chariots but they won’t be much good soon. I am of the “get what you can while you can get it” mentality.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g240/cosmichail/Civ4ScreenShot0476-1.jpg

I pretty much cringed when I saw the -4 trading with worst enemy but Washington is the only civ now pleased with us so that’s a bonus.

And now the hard part leaving those units to build with new civics or get them out now to join battle. I normally would have just got them out but our illustrious leader influenced me not to. Risky I think since we didn’t know what is in those galleys but nonetheless I follow orders like a good General. In hindsight I wish I had as GK showed up with two Keshiks. I forget to whip that darn spear too and start the revolution.
Vassalage/theocracy/hereditary rule.

Those were the hardest three turns I have had to endure in a long time. We do remove those troops from Jelling and put them on the hill. Then hit enter and wait for the explosions…..

We got this power report to make us feel good about our empire. I was very happy as I have found those are skewed too counting power in walls/castles and not troops alone so I don’t really give them a lot of merit. But it was reassuring to see that we are fulfilling the variant. (Losing hee hee)

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g240/cosmichail/Civ4ScreenShot0478-1.jpg

Well I won’t keep you wondering did Jelling survive? It didn’t Gandhi razed it. He also attacked the axe/warrior on the hill but they stood a better chance there than in the city with no defenses. They both died but the elephant was wounded. We have spears around but the odds are terrible. (one was 67.1% and if we win that I buy champagne)

530 ad

One turn left in anarchy and the RNG God is kind to us today. We kill two WE’s and kill another Keshik but loose one spear to Keshik. I was delightfully surprised by this and some spears have formation now which give them 90% plus odds so those Keshiks are toast now. Not sure how well they will do against WE’s but we’ll see.

I also keep watching for getting peace with GK so that we can get our armies organized and fight on our terms.

545ad -605ad

For the most part just getting troops to Birka and taking out the troops left at Jelling. One lbm is wandering around Uppsala but I left a sword there to keep him at bay. Also Uppsala is building a cat so that when he does get out into the open to pillage we hit him with a combat cat and finish if with sword if he looses. For a while he just stood at Uppsala waving at our citizens.

Whipped a spear in Uppsala which has formation and took out a Keshik rather easily.

Here’s the good news so we can focus now on getting Birka back. I felt making peace with GK was needed so we could regroup and go after him once the 10 turns expires.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g240/cosmichail/Civ4ScreenShot0481-1.jpg

Now not all might agree with this but we need to get Uppsala corn/marble back for the city to help in this war. That longbow is still pestering us at Uppsala but not much I can do whilst he hides in the forest.

We also trade dyes for gold with Isabella. Happy for happy but we didn’t have something else to offer. We were very close to happy cap in Haithabu however that is now somewhat alleviated and it can now grow a bit. (probably from previous whipping)

I was itching to take Birka but with one cat just too risky. But take a look at this I almost ventured with what we had but decided against it after some thought. Why does AI put ships in city just to be wiped out when taken. Not very smart. It really made me want to attack to get rid of those and keep Gandhi away for a bit but couldn’t. ARGH…..

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g240/cosmichail/Civ4ScreenShot0483-1.jpg

We also pop a GG and his name Pachachuti me thinks. Well he’s now a chariot super medic and decided on chariot so he’d never be in front line of defense.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g240/cosmichail/Civ4ScreenShot0484.jpg

(mmm there’s no way we got 12 points of XP during this time since I haven’t even attacked Birka yet. So now I wonder if it’s only XP points during battle)

Genghis also asks to trade wine for gems but decline. It won’t be long before we’re back at him again so why bother and we don’t need the happy now.

620ad

The battle of Birka

We only loose two cats in the process and take out his fleet too. That should keep him at bay for a bit. I did notice a sword heading for our gems but he turned backed after we took Birka back. Those gems need protecting and see where that sword is too as he must be leftover from the landing. What surprised me too was Gandhi sent a sword towards our corn at Haithabu earlier but when I got an axe nearby he turned back. Whew…

635ad

We discover COL and start on machinery. Oh the good news well one was the Gandhi’s fleet was sunk without using a ship and our science is now much better. We can research now at 80% (small deficit) for machinery in 12 turns. Nidaros is actually working a cottage and pumping out 25 base hammers. Whilst we have a breather we should build a forge there now.

Our ship continues to try for circumnavigate bonus but we run into this road block:

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g240/cosmichail/Civ4ScreenShot0487.jpg

Brennus is always annoyed and part of the Buddhist block. I turned the ship back but in hindsight if we gift him a tech he might open borders long enough for us to get thru there.

Last minute worries:

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g240/cosmichail/Civ4ScreenShot0489-1.jpg

Yep he’s got maces so it’s nice he’s far away. I think he may have his hands full with the Buddhist block so nearby but all the more need for machinery at least. Berserkers even better but we need to avoid CS to lightbulb Astro which I think at this point we should forget. What got to me during this game was the jungle is really slowing down troops especially when the enemy blocks the way. Although 7 workers are good I think we need a few more for road duty/jungle removal.

End of turn notes for next player:

4 workers are starting to farm the corn at Uppsala and a spear is heading there to protect them.

One worker is on the way to Birka (at Haithabu) and one is already there ready to get started on the spices. Two are left at Nidaros finishing another cottage and should be moved to Birka. (done in 1 turn). Watch for the longbow that is near the farm which may say why not a cottage. Well when we lost the corn I wanted Uppsala to have something to work so it wouldn’t starve. Only temporary and nothing much workers could whilst we were under attack.

Whilst the Keshiks were running around the workers also built a quarry on marble. It isn’t roaded as once I could get corn farmed again I rushed workers over there. I think we’d be better to maybe leave two workers behind to road up the marble so we can build the HE. (Haithabu??) The remaining two workers should head to Birka and get the spices/sugar on line.

We do have a fair army now in Birka so I think a few Triremes may be in order for next builds in Nidaros and maybe do some scouting of Gandhi’s land. If we do that never send just one ship always send them in pairs as the AI usually does. We should get some intel on Gandhi and understand his capabilities. (production wise). He’s the most powerful at the beginning of the game but he lost 3 elephants/sword/axe/three galleys/two Triremes. Now that’s gotta hurt.

Good luck Scowler things are better now.

HOF autolog:

b]Turn 200 (500 AD)[/b]
Tech learned: Currency
Tech learned: Feudalism
Tech learned: Calendar
Jelling razed by Indian Empire
Jelling lost
Axeman loses to: Indian War Elephant (6.72/8)
Warrior loses to: Indian Longbowman (6.00/6)

Turn 201 (515 AD)
Tech learned: Horseback Riding
Catapult promoted: City Raider I
Chariot promoted: Medic I

Turn 202 (530 AD)
Spearman promoted: Combat II
Spearman promoted: Combat II
Spearman defeats (1.72/4): Indian War Elephant
Spearman defeats (0.96/4): Indian War Elephant
Spearman defeats (0.60/4): Mongolian Keshik
Spearman loses to: Mongolian Keshik (6.00/6)

Turn 203 (545 AD)
Spearman promoted: Formation
Spearman promoted: Formation
Nidaros finishes: Catapult
Uppsala grows: 4
Uppsala finishes: Spearman
Haithabu finishes: Archer

Turn 204 (560 AD)
Nidaros begins: Catapult
Uppsala begins: Spearman
Haithabu begins: Catapult
Spearman promoted: Combat II
Spearman promoted: Formation
Spearman defeats (2.20/4): Mongolian Keshik
Bjørgvin finishes: Chariot

Turn 205 (575 AD)
Bjørgvin begins: Catapult

Turn 206 (590 AD)
Uppsala begins: Catapult
Nidaros grows: 10
Nidaros finishes: Catapult
Bjørgvin grows: 4

Turn 207 (605 AD)
Nidaros begins: Swordsman
War ends: Mongolian Empire

Turn 208 (620 AD)
Swordsman promoted: Combat II
Catapult loses to: Indian War Elephant (8.00/8)
Catapult loses to: Indian War Elephant (5.60/8)
Pachacuti (Great General) born in Haithabu
Catapult defeats (2.90/5): Indian War Elephant
Swordsman defeats (3.84/6): Indian Axeman
Swordsman defeats (2.76/6): Indian Swordsman
Birka's borders expand
Hinduism has spread: Birka
Captured Birka (Gandhi)
Birka begins: Walls
Tech learned: Code of Laws
Nidaros finishes: Swordsman
Haithabu finishes: Catapult

Turn 209 (635 AD)
Research begun: Machinery
Nidaros begins: Catapult
Haithabu begins: Catapult
Pachacuti (Chariot) promoted: Lead by Warlord
Pachacuti (Chariot) promoted: Medic II
Pachacuti (Chariot) promoted: Medic III
Contact made: Celtic Empire
Haithabu finishes: Catapult

Turn 210 (650 AD)
Haithabu begins: Longbowman

CFC autolog/save to follow

Cosmichail

Mar 15, 2007, 05:32 PM

CFC autolog

Here is your Session Turn Log from 500 AD to 650 AD:

Turn 200, 500 AD: You have discovered Currency!
Turn 200, 500 AD: You have discovered Feudalism!
Turn 200, 500 AD: You have discovered Calendar!
Turn 200, 500 AD: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 200, 500 AD: VQ adopts Hereditary Rule!
Turn 200, 500 AD: VQ adopts Vassalage!
Turn 200, 500 AD: VQ adopts Theocracy!
Turn 200, 500 AD: Jelling (VQ) has been captured by the Indian Empire!!!
Turn 200, 500 AD: Jelling has been razed by the Indian Empire!!!
Turn 200, 500 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant (8.80) vs VQ's Axeman (6.00)
Turn 200, 500 AD: Combat Odds: 89.4%
Turn 200, 500 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 200, 500 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 200, 500 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 200, 500 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 200, 500 AD: VQ's Axeman is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 200, 500 AD: VQ's Axeman is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 200, 500 AD: VQ's Axeman is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 200, 500 AD: VQ's Axeman is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 200, 500 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 200, 500 AD: VQ's Axeman is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 200, 500 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant has defeated VQ's Axeman!
Turn 200, 500 AD: Gandhi's Longbowman (6.00) vs VQ's Warrior (2.70)
Turn 200, 500 AD: Combat Odds: 99.7%
Turn 200, 500 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 200, 500 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 200, 500 AD: VQ's Warrior is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 200, 500 AD: VQ's Warrior is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 200, 500 AD: VQ's Warrior is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 200, 500 AD: VQ's Warrior is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 200, 500 AD: Gandhi's Longbowman has defeated VQ's Warrior!
Turn 200, 500 AD: Gandhi adopts Bureaucracy!
Turn 200, 500 AD: Isabella adopts Theocracy!

Turn 201, 515 AD: You have discovered Horseback Riding!

Turn 202, 530 AD: VQ's Spearman (4.80) vs Gandhi's War Elephant (4.06)
Turn 202, 530 AD: Combat Odds: 72.1%
Turn 202, 530 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 202, 530 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 202, 530 AD: (Combat: -100%)
Turn 202, 530 AD: (Combat: +25%)
Turn 202, 530 AD: VQ's Spearman is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 202, 530 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 20 (64/100HP)
Turn 202, 530 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 20 (44/100HP)
Turn 202, 530 AD: VQ's Spearman is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 202, 530 AD: VQ's Spearman is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 202, 530 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 20 (24/100HP)
Turn 202, 530 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 20 (4/100HP)
Turn 202, 530 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 202, 530 AD: VQ's Spearman has defeated Gandhi's War Elephant!
Turn 202, 530 AD: VQ's Spearman (4.80) vs Gandhi's War Elephant (4.44)
Turn 202, 530 AD: Combat Odds: 67.1%
Turn 202, 530 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 202, 530 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 202, 530 AD: (Combat: -100%)
Turn 202, 530 AD: VQ's Spearman is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 202, 530 AD: VQ's Spearman is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 202, 530 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 202, 530 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 202, 530 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 202, 530 AD: VQ's Spearman is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 202, 530 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 202, 530 AD: VQ's Spearman is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 202, 530 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 202, 530 AD: VQ's Spearman has defeated Gandhi's War Elephant!
Turn 202, 530 AD: VQ's Spearman (4.80) vs Genghis Khan's Keshik (3.63)
Turn 202, 530 AD: Combat Odds: 73.1%
Turn 202, 530 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 202, 530 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 202, 530 AD: (Combat: -100%)
Turn 202, 530 AD: (Combat: +25%)
Turn 202, 530 AD: VQ's Spearman is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 202, 530 AD: VQ's Spearman is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 202, 530 AD: Genghis Khan's Keshik is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 202, 530 AD: VQ's Spearman is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 202, 530 AD: Genghis Khan's Keshik is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 202, 530 AD: Genghis Khan's Keshik is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 202, 530 AD: VQ's Spearman is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 202, 530 AD: Genghis Khan's Keshik is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 202, 530 AD: VQ's Spearman is hit for 17 (15/100HP)
Turn 202, 530 AD: Genghis Khan's Keshik is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 202, 530 AD: VQ's Spearman has defeated Genghis Khan's Keshik!
Turn 202, 530 AD: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.
Turn 202, 530 AD: Genghis Khan's Keshik (7.20) vs VQ's Spearman (1.62)
Turn 202, 530 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 202, 530 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 202, 530 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 202, 530 AD: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 202, 530 AD: (Combat: +100%)
Turn 202, 530 AD: VQ's Spearman is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 202, 530 AD: Genghis Khan's Keshik has defeated VQ's Spearman!
Turn 202, 530 AD: Tycho Brahe (Great Scientist) has been born in Karakorum (Genghis Khan)!

Turn 204, 560 AD: VQ's Spearman (4.80) vs Genghis Khan's Keshik (2.92)
Turn 204, 560 AD: Combat Odds: 94.6%
Turn 204, 560 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 204, 560 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 204, 560 AD: (Combat: -125%)
Turn 204, 560 AD: VQ's Spearman is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 204, 560 AD: VQ's Spearman is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 204, 560 AD: VQ's Spearman is hit for 15 (55/100HP)
Turn 204, 560 AD: Genghis Khan's Keshik is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 204, 560 AD: Genghis Khan's Keshik is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 204, 560 AD: Genghis Khan's Keshik is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 204, 560 AD: Genghis Khan's Keshik is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 204, 560 AD: VQ's Spearman has defeated Genghis Khan's Keshik!
Turn 204, 560 AD: Mehmed II adopts Vassalage!
Turn 204, 560 AD: Mehmed II adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 206, 590 AD: Nidaros has grown to size 10

Turn 207, 605 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Uppsala!
Turn 207, 605 AD: You have made peace with Genghis Khan!
Turn 207, 605 AD: Mehmed II has 5 gold per turn available for trade

Turn 208, 620 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Uppsala!
Turn 208, 620 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 44 ? for Haithabu.
Turn 208, 620 AD: VQ's Catapult (5.00) vs Gandhi's War Elephant (10.40)
Turn 208, 620 AD: Combat Odds: 0.7%
Turn 208, 620 AD: (Extra Combat: +30%)
Turn 208, 620 AD: Your Catapult has caused collateral damage! (2 Units)
Turn 208, 620 AD: VQ's Catapult is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 208, 620 AD: VQ's Catapult is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 208, 620 AD: VQ's Catapult is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 208, 620 AD: VQ's Catapult is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 208, 620 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant has defeated VQ's Catapult!
Turn 208, 620 AD: Your Catapult has died trying to attack a War Elephant!
Turn 208, 620 AD: VQ's Catapult (5.00) vs Gandhi's War Elephant (8.80)
Turn 208, 620 AD: Combat Odds: 3.2%
Turn 208, 620 AD: (Extra Combat: +30%)
Turn 208, 620 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 208, 620 AD: Your Catapult has caused collateral damage! (2 Units)
Turn 208, 620 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 208, 620 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 208, 620 AD: VQ's Catapult is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 208, 620 AD: VQ's Catapult is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 208, 620 AD: VQ's Catapult is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 208, 620 AD: VQ's Catapult is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 208, 620 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant has defeated VQ's Catapult!
Turn 208, 620 AD: Your Catapult has died trying to attack a War Elephant!
Turn 208, 620 AD: VQ's Catapult (5.00) vs Gandhi's War Elephant (4.86)
Turn 208, 620 AD: Combat Odds: 65.4%
Turn 208, 620 AD: (Extra Combat: +30%)
Turn 208, 620 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 208, 620 AD: Your Catapult has caused collateral damage! (2 Units)
Turn 208, 620 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 18 (52/100HP)
Turn 208, 620 AD: VQ's Catapult is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 208, 620 AD: VQ's Catapult is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 208, 620 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 18 (34/100HP)
Turn 208, 620 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 18 (16/100HP)
Turn 208, 620 AD: Gandhi's War Elephant is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 208, 620 AD: VQ's Catapult has defeated Gandhi's War Elephant!
Turn 208, 620 AD: Pachacuti (Great General) has been born in Haithabu (VQ)!
Turn 208, 620 AD: Your Catapult has destroyed a War Elephant!
Turn 208, 620 AD: VQ's Swordsman (6.60) vs Gandhi's Axeman (4.55)
Turn 208, 620 AD: Combat Odds: 89.1%
Turn 208, 620 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 208, 620 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 208, 620 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 208, 620 AD: (City Attack: -55%)
Turn 208, 620 AD: (Combat: +50%)
Turn 208, 620 AD: VQ's Swordsman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 208, 620 AD: VQ's Swordsman is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 208, 620 AD: Gandhi's Axeman is hit for 21 (49/100HP)
Turn 208, 620 AD: Gandhi's Axeman is hit for 21 (28/100HP)
Turn 208, 620 AD: Gandhi's Axeman is hit for 21 (7/100HP)
Turn 208, 620 AD: Gandhi's Axeman is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 208, 620 AD: VQ's Swordsman has defeated Gandhi's Axeman!
Turn 208, 620 AD: Your Swordsman has destroyed a Axeman!
Turn 208, 620 AD: VQ's Swordsman (6.60) vs Gandhi's Swordsman (4.96)
Turn 208, 620 AD: Combat Odds: 86.5%
Turn 208, 620 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 208, 620 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 208, 620 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 208, 620 AD: (City Attack: -30%)
Turn 208, 620 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 21 (51/100HP)
Turn 208, 620 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 21 (30/100HP)
Turn 208, 620 AD: VQ's Swordsman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 208, 620 AD: VQ's Swordsman is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 208, 620 AD: VQ's Swordsman is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 208, 620 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 21 (9/100HP)
Turn 208, 620 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 208, 620 AD: VQ's Swordsman has defeated Gandhi's Swordsman!
Turn 208, 620 AD: Your Swordsman has destroyed a Swordsman!
Turn 208, 620 AD: You have captured Birka!!!
Turn 208, 620 AD: The borders of Birka have expanded!
Turn 208, 620 AD: You have discovered Code of Laws!

Turn 209, 635 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Uppsala!
Turn 209, 635 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Haithabu!
Turn 209, 635 AD: Gandhi has 270 gold available for trade
Turn 209, 635 AD: Brennus has 4 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 209, 635 AD: Bjørgvin will grow to size 5 on the next turn

Turn 210, 650 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Uppsala!

Space launch alpha (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/VQ_SG004_AD0650_01.CivWarlordsSave)

EDIT: Just looked at Gandhi's capitol. Ivory is sitting on plains forest so that site will yield 5 hammers? and iron/gems so he can build fast so we shouldn't let down our guard even for a minute. He has Trireme near Haithabu and the sooner we get caravels the better. (Gandhi will likely beat us to that)

GreyFox

Mar 15, 2007, 07:19 PM

Good job getting Birka back! :goodjob:

This game is definitely turning interesting.

--

Cosmichail

Mar 15, 2007, 10:42 PM

Hey Fox where you off to this time.

This game is definitely turning interesting.

Certainly is. I didn't play as well as I would have liked to. That 3 turns of anarchy gave me anxiety attack watching Gandhi have his way with us. Little bugger but kudos to him. At least he showed us who's boss. He certainly caught us with our pants down. If it wasn't for a few lucky attacks on our part (67.1% and 73% for Keshik) it could have turned out a lot different. That is actually where the jungle was a big help in keeping our troops safe. Otherwise a pain getting troops deployed.

GreyFox

Mar 15, 2007, 10:56 PM

Heading to Prague next week.

Well, jungle (and hills and forests) cuts both way ... but it usually helps whoever that is on the weak side.

--

namliaM

Mar 16, 2007, 12:40 AM

I had to continuously shuffle workers out of harms way making their position now look like poor planning.
Better have safe workers in odd places than no workers... :goodjob:

In hindsight I wish I had as GK showed up with two Keshiks. I forget to whip that darn spear too and start the revolution.

Thats what you get for listening to me, havent you learned yet that what ever I say, do the opposit??? :p 3 turn anarchy Bites!

But it was reassuring to see that we are fulfilling the variant. (Losing hee hee) :lol:

One lbm is wandering around Uppsala but I left a sword there to keep him at bay. Also Uppsala is building a cat so that when he does get out into the open to pillage we hit him with a combat cat and finish if with sword if he looses. For a while he just stood at Uppsala waving at our citizens.
Hmz wrong way around me thinks, a catapult is more expensive than a sword and the Cata cannot do colatorol damage, negating that advantage.
In this situation I would attempt an attack with the (stronger) sword first, then clean up with anything if he dies.

Peace with GK, including 7gpt to us... Nice bonus :)

It really made me want to attack to get rid of those and keep Gandhi away for a bit but couldn’t. ARGH…..
Why not? With just the sword + axe there?? Or did you attack and was that stack left behind? It looks on the screeny like we have 4 movable units vs 2 (wounded) defenders ??

(mmm there’s no way we got 12 points of XP during this time since I haven’t even attacked Birka yet. So now I wonder if it’s only XP points during battle)Hmz, strange... makes you wonder he?

The battle of Birka:band: [party] :dance:
Now lets keep it safe untill we want to lose it ....

Brennus is always annoyed and part of the Buddhist block. We were missing a civ?!

Depends on what tech we want to/can give him....

Dont know about the worker assignments, maybe we can have 2 workers for the spice and suggar at Birka, I dont like the idea of running 2 workers from Upsalla to Brika.... maybe we should distribute the workers a bit, just one to a city with one or 2 free workers doing to the running to where help is needed.
I agree we now have some breathing space, time to insert the Forge at Nadiros and 2 settlers out of someplace to settle YELLOW in particular, this is cheap and will help with working them gems right aways.
Orange will help (big time) once a little developed...

@Greyfox, Prague? As in europe? Have fun man!

Roster
namliaM -- +1 gmt (Actually 0 atm due to DST) >On deck for next week
Greyfox -- +8 gmt > Due for some Khaaan stomping?
Maquis -- -7 gmt
Bobrath -- -5 gmt
Healium -- +1 gmt -- Auto skip due to a Herniated disk *Good luck man* and be well
Scowler -- gmt > UP to rebuild and re-prep for Khaaan
Frankcor-- -5 gmt <Lurker>
Cosmichail -- -5gmt > Recovered our fumbling Birka

Cosmichail

Mar 16, 2007, 03:21 AM

Why not? With just the sword + axe there?? Or did you attack and was that stack left behind? It looks on the screeny like we have 4 movable units vs 2 (wounded) defenders ??

I notice that too now but there was a elephant there as I had to waste two cats to take him out. I would have attacked with just a sword and axe there but I swear man there was an elephant in there too. In galley??? He was even visible to me in the city????

Hmz wrong way around me thinks, a catapult is more expensive than a sword and the Cata cannot do colatorol damage, negating that advantage.
In this situation I would attempt an attack with the (stronger) sword first, then clean up with anything if he dies

Scowler can do that since the sword is there and cat ready to be whipped for 1 pop.

As to workers 4 are still at Uppsala. 1 at Birka and 1 at Haithabu which could be used at Birka. Then two left at Nidaros so Scowler can figure out what to do but you're right about workers and we will be ok with 2 at Birka.

Uppsala is turning out to be a nice city with a cottage nearing village I think. If we leave the 4 workers we could road marble and build some more infrastructure there.

I also agree to whilst we can breathe we start forge/and get a couple of settlers. We should get that spot on line (orange??) gems/sugar/horses site. That I think should be first as it could be a great city too. With having 4 workers nearby at Uppsala we could really work the land fast.

Yep I shouldn't have listened like you said especially with that grueling 3 turns. :lol:

namliaM

Mar 16, 2007, 04:57 AM

I notice that too now but there was a elephant there as I had to waste two cats to take him out. I would have attacked with just a sword and axe there but I swear man there was an elephant in there too. In galley??? He was even visible to me in the city????
See, I do read them... and look at all the screenies too!!!
Funny thing about that WE tho... If you add a full heath WE in that city I wonder if the spear would still face the Axeman... I think so...
Even with the WE I think I would have sacrificed an Axe to wound it and clean up... but... thats me... I can imagine sticking it out when facing that WE.
Was this screeny maybe after the 2 cata to take out the WE? It would account for the damaged units as well.

cat ready to be whipped for 1 pop.
Whipping for 1 pop ... :nono: try to allways whip for >1 pop, it is WAY more efficient than 1 pop.

About workers *without looking at the save*, if all the cities right now are working improved tiles we should try and get 1 worker to a city in order to pre-improve the land. If we have a lot of pre-improvement allready the worker can help out elsewhere.
Priorities for 'free' workers I think:
-> Improve bare tiles
Improve any tiles that are beeing worked by any city allready.
-> Hook up Spice and Sugar, but only at the speed of:
1) we need the happy in any city
2) We need the tile improvement for Birka
-> Prechop Jungle, in 2 stages
1) Get the yellow gems prechopped/cleared and clear the yellow dot.
2) Start clearing Orange, which may be a little risky... make sure to get a guard out there for looking out towards (previous) Jelling to spot Gandhi comming.

The key is balance I think, not like Bjorgvin where we had like 5 tiles pre-improved by 4 workers and having Nadiros working unimproved grassland or a plains forrest.

Cosmichail

Mar 16, 2007, 06:05 AM

You know what, now that I think about it I mixed up the screenie and that was the battle of Birka. I agree on wasting a few units at the time when the ships were in there (or noticed it) that damn elephant was combat level III. It took two cats just to weaken him and the odds for the swords/axes was terrible and of course the spear always ends up against axe. I just didn't think wasting axe/sword/cat at the time was worth it with badly needed units as that was what was at the city at the time. Trust me I wanted to attack and take out his navy bad but the elephant was just too strong.

As to cities working improved tiles they all are even Birka. Imagine that farm now is helping working the gems. Nidaros has now pre-improved land and so does Haithabu. I did have worker starting a cottage (Haithabu) but felt getting spices hooked for commerce/food would be better since Haithabu has enough improved tiles for now. He is still in Haithabu but can be in Birka in 2 turns.

The area I think needs the most work is Birka and Uppsala. Bjorgvin is fine and needs no work atm.

Again I mixed up orange/yellow but the site south of Nidaros is what I mean. Once we road marble and maybe improve a few more tiles at Uppsala for anticipated growth we could use those 4 workers to clear that land for the new city. The area is in our culture so it can be worked and imo will be a good production/commerce/ and adequate food.

Watch our coast

Gandhi may have been slowed down but that capitol has lots of production. The ivory is sitting in a plains forest. (can see that Gyathaar placed that there as I have never seen ivory in plains forest except for fantasy realm) including iron/gems so he has the production capacity to come back at us soon. So don't let down the guard there. Him having WE's is pain as even maces/berserkers don't do well against them in the open. Sure with CR3 against city no problem.

@namliaM - team

I apoligize as my play wasn't my norm but I wasn't feeling that good and still aren't. (high blood pressure) So if I mixed up that screenie and make a bad trade with Washington I just wasn't clear headed as I usually am.

We did not loose one worker and only lost two cats/one spear.

Enemy lost 3 Keshiks/3 elephants/sword/axe/2 triremes/3 galleys. There was a sword near Birka but he disappeared or maybe I was imagining it. I think we have too much fog at Bjorgvin and won't be able to see a surprise attack. Perhaps putting something there to defog the area so we know what's coming.

Hopefully with a couple more good cities online we will be able to weather this out until Gandhi launches.

@namliaM - Since Hannibal has CS/machinery now should we think about getting CS too just in case. I have that nightmare of fighting maces with swords (mmmm some multiplayer game as I recall) and don't want to see us in that position.

Scowler

Mar 16, 2007, 06:24 AM

I see the save, but will not play before tomorrow sometime. I'll refresh my memory of the game and reports later today.

namliaM

Mar 16, 2007, 06:28 AM

I apoligize as my play wasn't my norm but I wasn't feeling that good and still aren't. (high blood pressure) So if I mixed up that screenie and make a bad trade with Washington I just wasn't clear headed as I usually am. Dont worry about it, just me nitpicking... I have been known to mix up a screeny or 2... It just jumped out at me as beeing "strange" => I mean peculiar, but I dont know how to spell that....

Any losses Gandhi has to take in favour of us is production lost on his part going to the stars... Therefor I would like see us make relocating to that other continent our highest priority:
1) Clean up Khaaan for Gandhi
2) Clean up Hannibal (he is closest right?) for us.

Xbows can handle Macemen just fine... and we are just a couple of turns from Machinery. If we can sling Astronomy we will be untouchable on the water (for a while), freeing our hands to get the most from our Bezerkers.

Getting machinery will obsoleet archers, meaning we cannot build them anymore for cheap and semi effective MP. Chariots are cheap MP too, but way less effective than archers are.

I have that nightmare of fighting maces with swords (mmmm some multiplayer game as I recall)
Hmz, any recent game ??? :mischief:

Edit: :goodjob: on getting all cities working improved tiles, if that is the case... I still havent looked at the save...

Cosmichail

Mar 16, 2007, 06:57 AM

Small exception on working all improved tiles. Uppsala is working corn which is unimproved but workers will have farm there in 2 turns. So other than that every city is working only improved tiles and on my second look Uppsala has enough too maybe just add another cottage on river next to corn and road marble then proceed to the new city site.

@Scowler
Also I notice Uppsala is working plains farm and once we get corn online again we should work that grass mine instead or cottage whatever you feel is necessary. We don't have many mature cottages only Uppsala has one producing 4 or 5 coins. Nidaros is working 1 cottage and so is Haithabu and both will be a bit before they turn into hamlets.

if that is the case

IF IF.........you doubt my word? I must have checked the cities every turn to make sure they were working the right tiles. :p

bobrath

Mar 16, 2007, 07:34 AM

IIRC we have a scout. Plop him down to do some fog busting in the SW and worst case lose a "cheap" hammer unit.

Cosmichail

Mar 17, 2007, 04:39 PM

Bob where do you mean about the scout? I just noticed fog west of Bjorgvin water inlet there which is blindspot and we won't see a landing coming. I didn't notice a scout and thought maybe a chariot could fill in since we have one in Haithabu.

namliaM

Mar 17, 2007, 05:03 PM

The scout might have been abort the galley? Or possibly lost allready?

bobrath

Mar 17, 2007, 10:03 PM

End of my turn, our scout was in the jungle between Jelling and our gem city...

Cosmichail

Mar 17, 2007, 10:43 PM

He's still there, hiding in the jungle so yep he can go do some fogbusting duty. So wrapped up in the battle I never noticed him.

Scowler

Mar 18, 2007, 07:22 PM

Nice turns, Cosmic - and thanks for the swap

Regarding the OB issue with Brennus: I did some WB experimentation and it seems that he won't be willing to sign an OB agreement unless he is cautious (at zero). We are currently at -5 so it will take more than one tech to get him to that level (it would have been better to negotiate at first contact when it would have carried a greater diplomatic weighting); it is most likely that gifted techs will only improve our standing by one point each, and even that is not for certain.

http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/4681/civ4warlords20070318115ng5.jpg

I even considered briefly the possibility of switching out of Hinduism, but decided that it wasn't worth the 2 turns of anarchy to swap out and back in, the loss of the Theocracy exp points while building our army, or dropping to -1 with GK. We would probably still have needed to gift at least one tech to Brennus, and even though our diplomatic status would have been improved with the other civs as well, I think subsequent events proved that this didn't really matter that much anyway.

I did some quick micro work on Nidaros and Uppsala which allowed these cities to grow more quickly without losing any turns on builds or research.

Then it was time to deal with the annoying LB that was hanging around Uppsala. Since it was most likely he would move onto the northern cottage to pillage the following turn I had to find some way of stopping him. Moving a spear onto the cottage was one idea, but the LB would still have roughly 70% chance of victory: if that happened we would have lost the spear and been no better off, since the counterattack would be across the river. If I moved both spears onto the cottage Uppsala would be defended by only an archer. Even though the LB would have only 28.3% chance of victory if he attacked I felt it was not worth taking the risk of losing the city. So I whipped the cat for 1 pop and moved both spears out.

(1) 665AD
Sure enough, the LB attacked the spears, and...

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/2788/civ4warlords20070318195rg1.jpg

The injured LB was swiftly dealt with

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/117/civ4warlords20070318195ih2.jpg

The overflow from the cat was put back into an already-queued and half-built replacement spear.

Izzy then offered us cows in exchange for our gems: obviously no deal made

Then came an unwelcome surprise:

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/7149/civ4warlords20070318200cj1.jpg

Nothing I can really do to stop him...

(2) 680AD
...and he settles right away:

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/6143/civ4warlords20070318201lp2.jpg

With the completion of the cat in the capital I immediately started a settler of our own.
Elsewhere, Gandhi completed the Chichen Itza, while Khan and Izzy both adopted Vassalage.

(3) 695AD
For his next trick, Gandhi founds Taoism in Bombay
Meanwhile I've been sending the scout to explore to the NW and uncover Gandhi's city there.

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/9099/civ4warlords20070318202kl9.jpg

Oops. Bye-bye scout. I put a couple of units there to provide early warning of any invasion from that direction.

I notice that Hannibal's new city is already Confused, giving it support for the inevitable culture battle.

(5) 725AD

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/9967/civ4warlords20070318203gg2.jpg

I turned him down: we already have some minuses from him, while Washington is Pleased and a possible trade partner. We got -1 from this, but he remained at Cautious. Izzy has also dropped down to Cautious by now.

Marble is at last online...

(6) 740AD
First sugar resource is online at Birka; workers start on the second.

(7) 755AD
Hinduism spreads to Samarqand:

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/3827/civ4warlords20070318204qg6.jpg

I see an opportunity to make a trade for Machinery, since it will still save a few turns:

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/1697/civ4warlords20070318205wl5.jpg

(8) 770AD
I then use our new tech to grab another:

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/6585/civ4warlords20070318205fj9.jpg

I've now set research to Civil Service for Beserkers; there doesn't seem to be any chance of trading for it at the moment.

(9) 785AD
Hinduism spreads to Sarmation

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/6175/civ4warlords20070318221nc1.jpg

(10) 800AD
I forgot at first that this was the final turn and made another trade - sorry - but I think it was worthwhile.

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/7200/civ4warlords20070318223ps7.jpg

To make up for that lapse I've deliberately left the settler (+ escort) and workers active so you can decide whether to go for Yellow dot or pick an alternative. I've pre-chopped the jungle on the gems at Yellow already.

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/4690/civ4warlords20070319011oo8.jpg

Erik the Viking is up...

SAVE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/VQ_SG004_AD0800_01.CivWarlordsSave)

Scowler

Mar 18, 2007, 07:28 PM

Here is your Session Turn Log from 650 AD to 800 AD:

Turn 210, 650 AD: You have trained a Catapult in Uppsala. Work has now begun on a Spearman.
Turn 210, 650 AD: Gandhi's Longbowman (6.00) vs VQ's Spearman (5.80)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Combat Odds: 70.6%
Turn 210, 650 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 210, 650 AD: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 210, 650 AD: VQ's Spearman is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Gandhi's Longbowman is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Gandhi's Longbowman is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: VQ's Spearman is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: VQ's Spearman is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Gandhi's Longbowman is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: VQ's Spearman is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Gandhi's Longbowman is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: VQ's Spearman is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Gandhi's Longbowman has defeated VQ's Spearman!

Turn 211, 665 AD: VQ's Swordsman (7.20) vs Gandhi's Longbowman (2.16)
Turn 211, 665 AD: Combat Odds: 99.8%
Turn 211, 665 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 211, 665 AD: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 211, 665 AD: Gandhi's Longbowman is hit for 22 (2/100HP)
Turn 211, 665 AD: Gandhi's Longbowman is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 211, 665 AD: VQ's Swordsman has defeated Gandhi's Longbowman!
Turn 211, 665 AD: Gandhi has completed Chichen Itza!
Turn 211, 665 AD: Genghis Khan adopts Vassalage!
Turn 211, 665 AD: Isabella adopts Vassalage!

Turn 212, 680 AD: Taoism has been founded in Bombay!

Turn 213, 695 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman (6.00) vs VQ's Scout (1.75)
Turn 213, 695 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 213, 695 AD: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 213, 695 AD: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 213, 695 AD: VQ's Scout is hit for 35 (65/100HP)
Turn 213, 695 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman is hit for 11 (89/100HP)
Turn 213, 695 AD: VQ's Scout is hit for 35 (30/100HP)
Turn 213, 695 AD: VQ's Scout is hit for 35 (0/100HP)
Turn 213, 695 AD: Gandhi's Swordsman has defeated VQ's Scout!

Turn 216, 740 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Birka!
Turn 216, 740 AD: Hinduism has spread in Samarqand.

Turn 217, 755 AD: You have discovered Machinery!
Turn 217, 755 AD: Uppsala has grown to size 5
Turn 217, 755 AD: Washington adopts Bureaucracy!

Turn 218, 770 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Birka!
Turn 218, 770 AD: You have discovered Compass!
Turn 218, 770 AD: Genghis Khan has 7 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 218, 770 AD: Mehmed II has 6 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 218, 770 AD: Birka will grow to size 4 on the next turn
Turn 218, 770 AD: Hinduism has spread in Sarmatian.
Turn 218, 770 AD: New Tech(s) to trade: Mehmed II

Turn 219, 785 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Birka!
Turn 219, 785 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Birka!
Turn 219, 785 AD: Bjørgvin will grow to size 6 on the next turn
Turn 219, 785 AD: Birka has grown to size 4

Turn 220, 800 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Birka!

Turn 210 (650 AD)
Uppsala finishes: Catapult
Bjørgvin grows: 4
Bjørgvin finishes: Catapult
Spearman loses to: Indian Longbowman (1.44/6)

Turn 211 (665 AD)
Swordsman defeats (6.00/6): Indian Longbowman
Bjørgvin begins: Longbowman
Nidaros finishes: Catapult
Uppsala grows: 4

Turn 212 (680 AD)
Nidaros begins: Settler
Uppsala finishes: Spearman
Taoism founded in a distant land

Turn 213 (695 AD)
Uppsala begins: Archer
Scout loses to: Indian Swordsman (5.34/6)

Turn 214 (710 AD)
Bjørgvin grows: 5
Bjørgvin finishes: Longbowman

Turn 215 (725 AD)
Longbowman promoted: City Garrison I
Bjørgvin begins: Longbowman

Turn 216 (740 AD)
Haithabu finishes: Longbowman
Hinduism has spread: Samarqand (Mongolian Empire)

Turn 217 (755 AD)
Longbowman promoted: City Garrison I
Longbowman promoted: City Garrison II
Haithabu begins: Swordsman
Tech learned: Machinery
Research begun: Civil Service
Nidaros finishes: Settler
Uppsala grows: 5

Turn 218 (770 AD)
Tech learned: Compass
Nidaros begins: Forge
Hinduism has spread: Sarmatian (Mongolian Empire)

Turn 219 (785 AD)
Birka grows: 4

Turn 220 (800 AD)

namliaM

Mar 19, 2007, 02:04 AM

(10) 800AD
I forgot at first that this was the final turn and made another trade - sorry - but I think it was worthwhile.

I think we are on 15 turns or am I wrong? I now see that Cosmic also did 10, oh well... are we on 10? Guess so...

Nice builder turns for you Scowler,
About brennus and OBs, we can do a corn for cows deal with him (tho thru 10.000 borders) and get the resource bonus (+1 IIRC) to boot. Then getting him to a point where he is cautious.... IIRC I read an article someplace that anywhere > -3 and < +3 is cautious. But then there are some hidden modifiers for been a warmonger civ too.... So I am not sure where we stand on the "real" points towards Brennus. IIRC we hare having health issues, if so getting the cow is a good idea regardless of the diplo point(s).

I dont know how far are we from getting our next GP? And do we have Meditation/Philo? Do we want to try and bulb towards Astronomy still if we get a GS?

I think in general we are in deep **** at the moment :( or we are doing a good job at losing this game ;) but I dont know if we can stick around long enough for Gandhi to launch.
I think we need to take out (atleast) both Khaaan and Hannibal at some point... I think we want to tech to better units asap and forget about i.e. the liberalism race and/or the space race for this time.
Beter units:
Sea: Optics / Astro / Chem
Land: CS / Guilds / Chem

To get a GS to bulb Astro, we need:
- NOT have CS
- Have Philo or not be able to research it (not have meditation)
- Have Optics

Scowler

Mar 19, 2007, 04:03 AM

I think we are on 15 turns or am I wrong? I now see that Cosmic also did 10, oh well... are we on 10? Guess so...

I think the understanding has always been 15 or 10 as desired; I rarely have the time to play 15, except in the early stages.

About brennus and OBs, we can do a corn for cows deal with him (tho thru 10.000 borders) and get the resource bonus (+1 IIRC) to boot. Then getting him to a point where he is cautious.... IIRC I read an article someplace that anywhere > -3 and < +3 is cautious. But then there are some hidden modifiers for been a warmonger civ too.... So I am not sure where we stand on the "real" points towards Brennus. IIRC we hare having health issues, if so getting the cow is a good idea regardless of the diplo point(s).

As I said, I tinkered with WB before playing and Brennus wouldn't consider OB until he reached zero with us. We've since lost another point to religion (-3 religion; -4 trading with worst enemy) so are currently at -6. Healthwise, Nidaros will reach the limit with the next pop growth, but also note that Brennus is Washington's worst enemy. Correction: Nidaros is 6 turns away from completing a Forge so is effectively at the health limit NOW. All the other cities are a long way off the limit.

I dont know how far are we from getting our next GP? And do we have Meditation/Philo? Do we want to try and bulb towards Astronomy still if we get a GS?

As things stand we are 19 turns from the next Great Person (in Nidaros; you can reduce it to 12 if you add 2 scientists). 60% chance for Scientist; 40% for Prophet ...but yes, we already have Meditation.

Hence my choice of CS.

namliaM

Mar 19, 2007, 06:19 AM

...I rarely have the time to play 15, except in the early stages.....

....As I said, I tinkered with WB ...
But plenty of time for tinkering ;)

:goodjob: Finding that out :)

but also note that Brennus is Washington's worst enemy.
And Washington is just about the only one friendly with us.... Lets keep it that way I think, thus no trading with brennus :(

health limit NOW
I am sure I can find a way to keep it at/below the health limit (if needed)
:whipped:

That means no bulbing Astro untill researching Philo + Optics. Taoism has also been founded => Bulbing Philo is not really a point.
Delaying CS to research Optics + Philo is not really an option I think?? !!
So ... the remaining question is ... what do we do with either a GS or GP?
GS: Acadamy in Haihabu (gold city) I think (Give Gandhi benifit later too) OR keep it to burn on Chemistry (need to get Philo and avoid Paper), but help on us conquering. I will try and make a small calculation on the time required to research Gunpowder thru Guilds (+Optics if we want to go for circumvention)

GP: ?????? I dont know the techtree situation right now, but think it will bulb towards Devine right (Trade bate)?? Settle it? If settle where, Nadiros to add to the shrine gold?

bobrath

Mar 19, 2007, 09:04 AM

Uh... we got optics in trade from Izzy I thought.

And as far as the GProph goes, I'm always in favor of trade bait for techs. Helps us yank our way back into tech parity.

frankcor

Mar 19, 2007, 12:44 PM

How about founding the new city 3 tiles south of Hannibal's intruder city? I know this is a radical move but you'd be sure to take Sicca by culture flip fairly quickly with 3 cities hammering away at it.

namliaM

Mar 19, 2007, 03:18 PM

Hmz, misplacing a city in order to potentially flip a city... I dont think that is a good idea... It allready has a religion => Culture going. Lets just take it by force.... shall we :devil:

Optics we definatly aint got, we got compass not so long ago from Isa

I went ahead and moved the game ahead a few turns... and right now... I am tempted... more later log first...

Washington comes by to beg us for Literature, an obsoleet relatively cheap tech AND he is our only friend... Sure help out and get +1 too
http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/5159/washingtonlitrw0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I thought we could use the hammers from this forrest much better than Hannibal... So I desided to chop it before his borders popped...
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/2132/stealhammersvs3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Mehmed desides to reinact a clam
http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/7955/mehmedbordersgl5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

We get two more gold coins a turn when hinduism desides it a good time to spread to 2 more cities, one of ours and .....
http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/4726/hinduismfy9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Note Hannibal getting Circumvention :( he is now on the naval level playing field where moving is concerned.

Now I am tempted to declare war on Khaaan ! I reshuffled some units and took the 7 catapult! Garrison of Birka and moved 5 of them south, leaving 2 in Birka for protection. I also moved an archer and LB into it, to solidify our holdings. The wall is (nearly) done... so it will not be (as) easy to take for Gandhi.
We are 2 turns from Bureaucracy and have a sizable stack now at the doors of Khaaan...
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/1629/temptationnl3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Basicaly 2 workers just for the taking... but ... are we ready (enough) to take on Khaaan?
http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/9625/khaaanvsuswl1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
That is what things look like, defenses at Uppsala... Defenses in the cities we can see of Khaaan... Not much to look at is there?

For your pleasure(s) I have uploaded (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/VQ_SG004_AD0890_01.CivWarlordsSave) the save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/VQ_SG004_AD0890_01.CivWarlordsSave) for you to look at here (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/VQ_SG004_AD0890_01.CivWarlordsSave)

Here is your Session Turn Log from 800 AD to 890 AD:

Turn 220, 800 AD: You have trained a Longbowman in Bjørgvin. Work has now begun on a Settler.

Turn 221, 815 AD: Roskilde has been founded.

Turn 222, 830 AD: Brennus has 7 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 222, 830 AD: Hinduism has spread in Bjørgvin.
Turn 222, 830 AD: Hinduism has spread in Durnovaria.
Turn 222, 830 AD: Isabella adopts Bureaucracy!

Turn 223, 845 AD: Genghis Khan has 7 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 223, 845 AD: Haithabu will grow to size 8 on the next turn
Turn 223, 845 AD: New Tech(s) to trade: Washington

Turn 224, 860 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Birka!
Turn 224, 860 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 20 ? for Birka.
Turn 224, 860 AD: Haithabu has grown to size 8
Turn 224, 860 AD: New Tech(s) to trade: Mehmed II

Turn 225, 875 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Birka!
Turn 225, 875 AD: Genghis Khan has 110 gold available for trade
Turn 225, 875 AD: Brennus has 100 gold available for trade
Turn 225, 875 AD: Genghis Khan has 7 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 225, 875 AD: Washington has 3 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 225, 875 AD: Nidaros will grow to size 11 on the next turn
Turn 225, 875 AD: You have trained a Crossbowman in Uppsala. Work has now begun on a Forge.
Turn 225, 875 AD: Alexandre Gustave Eiffel (Great Engineer) has been born in a far away land!
Turn 225, 875 AD: New Tech(s) to trade: Isabella
Turn 225, 875 AD: Hannibal is the first to circumnavigate the Globe!

Turn 226, 890 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Birka!
Turn 226, 890 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Birka!

With a few catapults in reserve and some CR2 swords + axe in that stack we can do some serious damage to Khaaan even before we get Berserkers. Also cash is running low and we could run tech of the plunder gold :)

Cosmichail

Mar 19, 2007, 03:55 PM

Nice turns both of you...although I get the impression namliaM you are going to play some more turns since you only played 6. When we go to war with GK just note that he is "pleased" with Hannibal. This might instigate another war on that front so at some point we really should be yielding Berserkers/crossbows as Hannibal does have maces.

Diplomatic front

GK has not yet met Brennus/Mehmed.
Izzy is furious with him and Washington annoyed. (perhaps a war ally)
Gandhi too is annoyed with him so any chance of them helping each other out is not likely.

Gandhi isn't the most popular guy as hannibal is annoyed with him as well as GK. He hasn't met Izzy/Brennus nor Mehmed yet so we can guess what 90% of his focus is. Building units and not doing what we need him to do.

Being that's the case we indeed better get rid of his enemies as the only friend he has is Washington who is cautious with him.

I believe we definitely should go to war soon with GK and get Karakorum for our use and eventually Gandhi.

Research

I see we are running at 80% which only can be sustained one more turn. We do need optics next not for the bonus but simply to protect against Hannibal's caravels should they attack. Losing that is no big deal I suppose but it's nice being Ragnar and getting that. I do not think upon meeting Brennus we could have done much to get him to cautious with an immediate -5 I think. The moment we meet he was annoyed and I don't believe in gifting techs as it's just a waste in the long run. If he request something that may help but I think it's too late for that.

Nidaros

Since we have no coin upgrading our swords isn't going to happen. So harbour is good for Nidaros but if we go to war I would priortize that city for building us berserkers. Hopefully Nidaros when it grows can work the plains mine again and start pumping out units fast. Right now crossbow at 5 turns isn't that good meaning berserkers will take like 6 turns of course that isn't considering the forge yet. So if next citizen that is born works plains we go base hammers of 25 again plus 25% = 31 base hammers. Berserkers is what 105 hammers to build so 4 turns to build one. Not great/not bad....

Good luck and go take care of Khaaaaaaaaaaaaaannn but watch Hannibal he likes GK.

EDIT: I say we are ready btw and go kick his ass. None of those longbows have much in the way of promotions so swords should be able to handle once the cats do their thing. Hopefully most of those cats are capable of CR2 since I sweated it out to make sure any units coming out during my turn had the vassalage/theocracy/ bonus. Question is do we give up vassalage for buro. I say yes, yes and yes since adding 50% production will make a big difference in building berserkers like in 3 turns. Plus of course the commerce bonus too however Haithabu has more base commerce than Nidaros.

Cosmichail

Mar 19, 2007, 04:25 PM

One last note about Washington. He likes Hannibal (same faith) so if we at some point declare on Hannibal we will get negatives.

Karakorum

When we take that city I think we should cottage it up to bring our teching back on line since Ragnar on river gets three coins from the start.

Razing the rest is good but what do you think will happen?

Other AI's will definitely settle on that land and make it difficult for Gandhi to do his thing. How do we stop the other AI's from settling on new available land?

GreyFox

Mar 19, 2007, 10:56 PM

Our forces can only take one city barely. it takes 2 swords to kill a longbowman even with suicide cats. I suggest we raze that Ottar (sp?) city first to get some money for upgrade of sword to berserkers. So, one way to do it is to only move 1 unit to wards Ottar city on declaration of war, to see hhow is the defense, then bring only sufficient troops to raze Ottar, leaving 1 or 2 swords behind in our culture. Once we get the pillage money, upgrade them to Berserkers, and head towards Karakorum.

I would also add the crossbow in Uppsala to the offensive force for defending of captured city.

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namliaM

Mar 20, 2007, 01:33 AM

Well indeed I was planning on playing a bit more...

The harbor in Nadiros is more for the health than it is the commerce, more health will allow it to grow bigger.... => More coins + more hammers.

All/most the catapults are CR2 (7xp) and IIRC so are most other units. One issue I did find was Bjorgvin building units WITHOUT a barracks!!!

On karakorum, I thought the thinking was to make it a GP farm? Or?? Yes we can cottage it up it will make a nice commerce city.
I was also looking at those cities we are going to raze... Lots of hammlets allready there. The problem is going to be if we keep them.... we need the FP someplace (fast) to stop our economy from tanking out completely.
We havent got a single courthouse anywhere and this would really help, but we need units now, not courthouses. Tho I think if we add a market in Nadiros and courthouses allround we can run 80% without deficit.
Also GK (or RNG) has allready provided Hinduism in those cities, razing them will hit us in the shrine as well :(. Is it an option to actually keep those cities? Most are not bad at all...
Hopefully Brennus will build a Monastary in that city of his and start spamming some missionaries for us :)

Cosmichail

Mar 20, 2007, 03:36 AM

@Greyfox...

I agree on the lack of umph with swords against longbows and would prefer to do that with Berserkers. Maybe a good a idea to take one city and upgrade from the spoils but isn't one sword to Berserker like 155 gold. Personally never have much experience fighting longbows with swords although I do find CR2 cats get good odds against longbow with no promotions. It's that one with CD1 I noticed will give us grief and hopefully no CD2 longbows. ;)

@namliaM

As to Karakorum it's just screaming cottages and GP farm at this point I think is too slow. Cottages will give immediate 3 commerce on rivers and grow to hamlets in 15 turns provding 4 coins. 7 or 8 tiles of cottages will yield at the start 21 base commerce and in 15 turns 28 base minimum. We need that bad.

I hate to see us raze everything (hindu cities would be shooting ourselves in the foot) and Hannibal/Brennus/Izzy/Mehmed....well you get the idea Gandhi might get one city and the rest from whoever. The city south of Karakorum could be razed to make room for more cottages but we should carefully think about how much open land we want to let AI spawn. That wine city would pay for itself too.

Courthouses are going to have to be whipped and I find typically capitol never needs other than fullfilling the need for FP. Speaking of which do we have even enough cities to get FP. (just checked: Requires: 6 courthouses, 8 or more cities)

Hopefully Brennus will build a Monastary in that city of his and start spamming some missionaries for us

mmmmm do you mean Hannibal? He settled on our land and need confucianism to get along with him which would be great for tech trading. Only thing is Buddhist block much bigger. (Izzy/Brennus/Mehmed I believe without looking at save). Also if you are referring to Brennus will be tough since he won't open borders anytime soon.

Just an idea if our finances get desperate. Put Haithabu on wealth but only if we are desperate.

Gandhi's enemies

Again remember that Hannibal is enemy of Gandhi and GK is too. If we want to keep Gandhi safe we need to take out both Hannibal and GK. Hannibal can be a real problem with teching too and if anybody has a chance at beating Gandhi it's him. He has maces and probably trebs too so if he decides to go after Gandhi he may well succeed. (pikes make elephants useless)

Another reason to turn Karakorum into cottage spam and use our trait to the fullest. We really need to get serious about a large army campaign and bring down those that offer the most threat right now.

Hannibal = definitely will take space race if we don't cut him down to size.
GK = simply we want that land for Gandhi but we should try to keep a few cities maybe with culture land grab as much as we can without having to hold cities. As we know AI keeps settlers handy as soon as you raze they are there with settlers. If we leave all that land open we end up with various AI's settling.

Once we take out Hannibal (I know big words from a small army as we need to get some practice on GK first) it will slow overall teching since he is they key and has OB with most AI as most are pleased or cautious with him. Except for Gandhi of course but I haven't played a game yet where everybody hates Gandhi. (same with Mansa too all the time):lol:

namliaM

Mar 20, 2007, 06:00 AM

Cats are needed for any cultural defense removal. But these are more expensive than Swords and with only one or 2 defenders in a city suiciding a sword makes more sence than the cats. I am most worried about that combat 3 axe that is out there.

As to Karakorum it's just screaming cottages and GP farm
Well if not Karakorum as GP Farm... then what? when and where? Or do we limit our GP generation to Nadiros ?? (a real option too with TGL + Hedge it brings 10GPT). Any other GP Farm would need atleast 4 specialists maybe 5 to keep up... meaning Temple + Lib + Forge (or somesort like that) unless we addopt Caste System which I dont see happening anytime soon.

I hate to see us raze everything
I agree, I think most those cities will pay for themselves at 50% pretty soon, if not immediatly the moment they come out of revolt. Also like you say, there is a real threat that Gandhi will not come (or to late) and the other AI (namely Hannibal) will come and settle, making him even more of a problem than he is right now.

The city south of Karakorum should NOT be razed either IMHO. It is hindu and kan work lots of 3coin coastal tiles. IF we add the FP to Karakorum the maintenance will be minimal and can help support/grow cottages for Karakorum and with the High food (sheep) can really whip out everything it needs.

mmmmm do you mean Hannibal? No... I mean what I said, Brennus... Brennus got Hindu spread to one of his cities during my set. It would be great if we can either make Brennus our opponent soon (take his land and vacate ours) or make him our biggest ally (as he is farthest away by land route). For him to become our ally Hindu he must become ... + every city with it brings $$$ so if only he spread it like wildfire and not become hindu would really help us.

On the other hand I am starting to think we need another game plan.
Our original is not going to work anymore I think, which was to take out GK and let Gandhi settle it. Find ourselves a new home and settle that for us... Then allow/hope for gandhi to take over our old home.
This would in my mind make Gandhi big and powerfull... but... how are we going to make this work? I think if we have to start over someplace else (without libraries and such! cause they allways get destroyed), I think they AI would really run away from us, not giving us the opportunity later to stop anyone from going space.

Hannibal is really running right now and needs to be stopped, how do we manage that without upsetting our friend Washington?

Any bright ideas on the Scientist and what to do with him?
Priest we can burn on Devine Right, but I am affraid we cannot force it beeing founded in Nadiros.

Just an idea if our finances get desperate. Put Haithabu on wealth but only if we are desperate.
Hmz, I think I would put it to Berserkers if we need money. Razing a few cities bring in plenty of money... but lets keep this suggestion in mind.

Hannibal vs Gandhi is not much of a problem. Gandhi is real powerfull :crazyeye: for some odd reason and would repel an infation from Hannibal with ease (I think/hope)

Gandhi and Mansa have one simular problem, they be tech whores... They trade with most everyone as soon as they meet. Thereby accumulating "you traded with my worst enemy" points a lot. Or I think that is it...