Diplomatic victory is disabled in this game.

I think it's important though that we get elected General Secretary of the UN once it is built. The intention should be to ban nuclear weapons because a nuclear war with Gandhi would be a disaster IMO.

Hi Frederiksberg,

Welcome back. Hope the trip went well.

I don't think the idea is to have a nuke war with Gandhi. I think it is to prevent the other civs from launching before Gandhi. I think we'll have to see where we are at the time to decide whether we'll need nukes or not... :blush: Heck of a subject for Easter... :mischief:

And thanks, forgot diplo was disabled... :rolleyes:

If rrau hasn't begun yet, I'd vote for
(1) settler on the horses;
(2) rather quickly poprushing a galleon in Samarqand (we're risking fishing nets every turn);
(3)temporarily abandoning Printing Press to go for Chemistry;
(4)trading Astronomy to Hannibal for Philosophy and Banking and money and maps, then trading Paper and Banking to Mehmed for Music, money, and maps (we need frigates and several civs will probably have to research Chemistry before we can get it in a trade and by then Atronomy is likely common knowledge)

>>>THE SAVE<<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/Xteam_SG004_AD1376_01.CivWarlordsSave)

The game crashed TWO TIMES!!!!!! During my turn set. :mad: :mad: :mad: Thankfully, they were boring turnsets and nothing much happened, but I got fed up and too angry after the 2nd crash to play beyond what I'd done, so I quit after 16 turns.

I HATE NVIDIA GeForce 6150 and the company that doesn't update their stupid defective drivers!!!

*takes a deep breath* Anyways.........

Had already started and didn't see CP's post

1280ad (0) IBT lose a caravel to Ghandi

1286ad (1) zzz

1292ad (2) Isabel and Mehemed make peace. IBT Lose another caravel to Ghandi

1298ad (3) zzz

1304ad (4) IBT Denied Washington's request to stop all trades with Brennus

1310ad (5) zzz

1316ad (6) IBT Learn printing press and start chemistry

1322ad (7) zzz

1328ad (8) Pop rushed a couple courthouses

1334ad (9) The game crashed (1st time) when I moved the explorer his second step. Went back to 1316 and replayed, rushing the same courthouses at the same time. The second time, the explorer made it out of the jungle on his second step without crashing the game

1340ad (10) IBT lost another Caravel - (I thought the one sitting on the whales was ours - I was shocked when it attacked in the IBT -- Whose idea was it anyways for our civ colors to match?)

1346ad (11) IBT lost another Caravel

1352ad (12) zzz

1358ad (13) IBT lost another caravel

1364ad (14) zzz

1370ad (15) zzz

1376 Learn Chemistry :D Start learning steel. Upgrade 1 caravel to a frigate. I start shopping around and take a screenie of the first deal, and I get the screenie and it minimizes Civ4 and pops up a window to complete it (I use Gadwin printscreen) and when Civ 4 tries to come back, the GAME CRASHES!!!!!! I had to go back to 1364 :mad:. At this point I replayed up to here. I'm too mad to go on. Playing civ when your mad, leads to costly mistakes.

At least 2 civs know chemistry. We can get some deals for it. We can also trade astronomy to Lizzy for some of the same techs we can get for chemistry. The screenie responsible for the second crash is below.

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1280 AD to 1376 AD:

Turn 270, 1280 AD: Gandhi's Caravel (3.30) vs Xteam's Caravel (3.30)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Combat Odds: 50.0%
Turn 270, 1280 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Xteam's Caravel is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Xteam's Caravel is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Xteam's Caravel is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Xteam's Caravel is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Xteam's Caravel is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Gandhi's Caravel has defeated Xteam's Caravel!

Turn 271, 1286 AD: Mehmed II has made peace with Isabella!

Turn 272, 1292 AD: Birka has been founded.
Turn 272, 1292 AD: Gandhi's Galleon (4.40) vs Xteam's Caravel (3.30)
Turn 272, 1292 AD: Combat Odds: 78.3%
Turn 272, 1292 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 272, 1292 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 272, 1292 AD: Xteam's Caravel is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 272, 1292 AD: Gandhi's Galleon is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 272, 1292 AD: Gandhi's Galleon is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 272, 1292 AD: Gandhi's Galleon is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 272, 1292 AD: Xteam's Caravel is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 272, 1292 AD: Gandhi's Galleon is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 272, 1292 AD: Gandhi's Galleon is hit for 17 (15/100HP)
Turn 272, 1292 AD: Gandhi's Galleon is hit for 17 (0/100HP)
Turn 272, 1292 AD: Xteam's Caravel has defeated Gandhi's Galleon!
Turn 272, 1292 AD: Gandhi's Caravel (3.24) vs Xteam's Caravel (1.78)
Turn 272, 1292 AD: Combat Odds: 97.3%
Turn 272, 1292 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 272, 1292 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 272, 1292 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 17 (73/100HP)
Turn 272, 1292 AD: Xteam's Caravel is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 272, 1292 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 17 (56/100HP)
Turn 272, 1292 AD: Xteam's Caravel is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 272, 1292 AD: Xteam's Caravel is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 272, 1292 AD: Gandhi's Caravel has defeated Xteam's Caravel!
Turn 272, 1292 AD: Mehmed II adopts Bureaucracy!

Turn 274, 1304 AD: Pytheas (Great Merchant) has been born in Bibracte (Brennus)!

Turn 275, 1310 AD: The borders of New Sarai have expanded!

Turn 276, 1316 AD: You have discovered Printing Press!
Turn 276, 1316 AD: Gandhi's Golden Age has ended...
Turn 276, 1316 AD: Isabella adopts Mercantilism!

Turn 277, 1322 AD: The borders of Ning-hsia have expanded!
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Brennus has completed Versailles!
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Washington has completed University of Sankore!

Turn 279, 1334 AD: Mehmed II converts to Confucianism!

Turn 280, 1340 AD: Gandhi's Caravel (3.30) vs Xteam's Caravel (3.00)
Turn 280, 1340 AD: Combat Odds: 68.1%
Turn 280, 1340 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 280, 1340 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 280, 1340 AD: Xteam's Caravel is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 280, 1340 AD: Xteam's Caravel is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 280, 1340 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 280, 1340 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 280, 1340 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 280, 1340 AD: Xteam's Caravel is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 280, 1340 AD: Xteam's Caravel is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 280, 1340 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 19 (5/100HP)
Turn 280, 1340 AD: Xteam's Caravel is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 280, 1340 AD: Gandhi's Caravel has defeated Xteam's Caravel!
Turn 280, 1340 AD: Scipio Africanus (Great General) has been born in Bombay (Gandhi)!

Turn 281, 1346 AD: Gandhi's Caravel (3.60) vs Xteam's Caravel (3.00)
Turn 281, 1346 AD: Combat Odds: 73.0%
Turn 281, 1346 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 281, 1346 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 281, 1346 AD: Xteam's Caravel is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 281, 1346 AD: Xteam's Caravel is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 281, 1346 AD: Xteam's Caravel is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 281, 1346 AD: Xteam's Caravel is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 281, 1346 AD: Xteam's Caravel is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 281, 1346 AD: Gandhi's Caravel has defeated Xteam's Caravel!
Turn 281, 1346 AD: The Spiral Minaret has been built in a far away land!

Turn 283, 1358 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Samarqand!
Turn 283, 1358 AD: You have trained a Caravel in Uppsala. Work has now begun on a Caravel.
Turn 283, 1358 AD: Gandhi's Caravel (3.30) vs Xteam's Caravel (3.00)
Turn 283, 1358 AD: Combat Odds: 68.1%
Turn 283, 1358 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 283, 1358 AD: Xteam's Caravel is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 283, 1358 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 283, 1358 AD: Xteam's Caravel is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 283, 1358 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 283, 1358 AD: Xteam's Caravel is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 283, 1358 AD: Xteam's Caravel is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 283, 1358 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 283, 1358 AD: Xteam's Caravel is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 283, 1358 AD: Gandhi's Caravel has defeated Xteam's Caravel!

Turn 284, 1364 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Samarqand!
Turn 284, 1364 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Nidaros!

Turn 285, 1370 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Samarqand!
Turn 285, 1370 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Nidaros!
Turn 285, 1370 AD: You have discovered Chemistry!
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Michaelangelo (Great Artist) has been born in Delhi (Gandhi)!
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Brennus adopts Mercantilism!

Turn 286, 1376 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Samarqand!
Turn 286, 1376 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Nidaros!

:rockon: Nice work RRAU!! :goodjob:

Sorry to hear about the crashes. If the screenshot program is causing some of them, you can take screenies directly in Civ 4. They are automatically saved in the screenshot folder in the Civ4 or Warlords folders in My Documents\My Games, near the save files.

Roster:
Sanabas - UP
Leif - On Deck
Cactus Pete
Gator
Frederiksberg
RRAU - Just played.
Bede

Got a PM from CP and he requested that we swop.

To the game:
The Birka location means we can no longer build on the horses, so we might consider another city located on the Grass Hill or Forest Plain between New Sarai and Ning-hsia. The other consideration is a city near Bagacum to keep it limited in cultural expansion? Of course, we *could* simply take the Celt city! :D

We own Chemistry, and so does Mehmed, unfortunately. We can get Banking, Music and Divine Right, plus 40 Gold, from Izzy for Printing Press and Gunpowder. That still leaves us Astronomy to deal to her if we need to, for now.

I was looking to see if anyone would join us against Brennus, but no one seems to be willing atm. We might be able to gain some points with Hannibal if we ally him against Gandhi and then, perhaps, he will join us against Brennus. I don't know if this will hurt Gandhi though?

In power, Gandhi leads, followed by Hannibal. Brennus is down there with us. Hannibal's city on our continent has Rifles in it. :eek:

Ah, we need Banking to see Replaceable parts, so the deal with Issy is important and then, perhaps, Chemistry for Replaceable Parts?

Steel is 13 turns away, so I think we should start planning to whack someone and Brennus looks like a good one to start with?

If your Civ4 is crashing frequently, and you can't make the autosaves happen every turn, then please save manually at the beginning of each turn to avoid having to back track and replay several turns. I realise it's frustrating for you, but I can't tell the difference between a replay because of a crash and a replay to change events.

Roster change:
Leif - UP
Cactus Pete - On Deck
Gator
Frederiksberg
RRAU
Bede
Sanabas

Planning to start tomorrow night. I hope to build or upgrade to Frigates and destroy as much of Gandhi's Navy as possible before he gets Chemistry and can build frigates. Research through Steel and head for Destroyers. Get some financial institutions built and some other infrastructure to support building and maintaining an Army.

Any other wishes? :mischief:

Your plans sound good to me. Preparing to attack Brennus is probably a good idea. I don't think we should settle more cities on our continent since the remaining open spots are resource poor. I'd rather capture fully developed cities from now on. I think it would be a good idea to fire some of our specialists and grow our cities for a while. We are very far from the happyness cap almost everywhere and could use the extra pop. We should probably keep our specialists working in Nidaros though because that's where we will produce our great people. When we get close to the happy cap we can go back to using more specialists. Speaking of happy cap - I think there is a Dye deal that we can make.

Yes, there is a Dye deal to make with Izzy, good catch. :goodjob: I looked things over but got home late from a meeting. I've decided to get a good night's sleep and try for tomorrow. Sorry... :sleep: :sleep: :sleep:

Growing some cities will mean we hit the health limit before the happy limit. Should we take the time to build Aqueducts in some of the cites; Old Sarai and Nidaros? We may be able to build Harbors in some as well; Tartar, Samarquand, Beshbalik and Ning-hsia? I'd like to build a Theater in Uppsala to counter the culture of India. or is it worth it?

We also have, probably, a Great Scientist due next turn (25% Great Artist, 25% Great Merchant, 50% Great Scientist). Any ideas on what to use him for. Lightbulb??

We probably shouldn't grow too far above the health limit. I like harbours and grocers better than aqueducts because they also increase commerce in addition to increasing health.

Lightbulbing sounds good to me. Maybe you should check the trade opportunities first to avoid lightbulbing a tech we could trade for.

Good luck with your turns.

Completed 10 turns thus far. We've sunk a bunch of Gandhi's Caravels and we have screenies of all of Brennus' citie (Its late, I'll try to post them in the morning). Mehmed and Izzy are fighting it out atm. Chemistry is still not widely available, just us and Mehmed. I'll post the save so you can have a look before I continue tomorrow evening.

<<THE SAVE >> (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/Xteam_SG004_AD1436_01.CivWarlordsSave)

Turn 286 – 1376 AD
Pre-flight.
Move Caravel near Delhi towards our territory to upgrade.
We have four Caravels and it costs 155 Gold per Caravel to upgrade to Frigate, so let’s see what we can get trading?
Visit Izzy and trade Printing Press and Gunpowder to her in exchange for Music, Divine Right and Banking plus 40 Gold. Then we trade Sheep to her for Dyes.
Drop research to 50% to gain some Gold for upgrades.
Fire Engineer in Karakorum and put him to work on a FP Cottage.
Fire the two Scientists in Samarqand and set them to working coastal tiles.
Fire Engineer in Ning-hsia and work a plains cottage.

OK, press enter.

IBT
The enemy is spotted near Nidaros and Samarqand.
Karakorum Barracks => Library.
Galileo is born in Nidaros (Great Scientist).

Turn 287 – 1382 AD
Upgrade Caravel near Hittite to a Frigate.
We can lightbulb Scientific Method, let’s see what is available for trade?
I notice we haven’t built an Academy yet in Nidaros and we have an Observatory due in 2 turns, that would make quite a difference in research rates? We can do Scientific Method in 13 turns currently and the Great Scientist will reduce that by a little more than half. After some quick scribbling, I decide that an Academy would be a good use for the Great Scientist, so we build one in Nidaros. The research increases from 58 beakers to 82 Beakers.

Visit with my new friend Mehmed and trade Banking and Printing Press to him for Nationalism plus World Map and 150 Gold. That puts us one step from Military Tradition and Cavalry.
Upgrade Caravel to Frigate in Old Sarai for 155 Gold.

IBT

Turn 288 – 1388 AD
Frigate attacks an Indian Caravel near Nidaros and sinks him, now 5.8/8.

Hannibal and Washington have Military Tradition.

IBT
Nidaros Observatory => Bank.
Haithabu Observatory => Bank.
Copper Mountain Caravel => Frigate.
New Sarai Berserker => Knight.

Turn 289 – 1394AD
Upgrade Caravel to Frigate in Uppsala for 155 Gold.

IBT
The enemey is spotted near Uppsala and Samarqand.
Ning-hsia Caravel => Frigate.

Turn 290 – 1400 AD
Frigate attacks Gandhi’s Caravels near Uppsala and kills one, now 4.6/8.

IBT
The enemy has been spotted near Samarqand.
Old Sarai Frigate => Bank.
Hannibal has completed the Kong Maio

Turn 291 – 1406 AD
Frigate attacks Indian Caravel near Samarqand and kills him, still 8/8.
Frigate attacks Indian Caravel near Bombay and kills him, still 8/8.

Upgrade Caraavel to Frigate in Tartar for 155 Gold.

IBT
The enemy has been spotted near Uppsala and Beshbalik.
Hittite Grocer => Bank.
New Sarai Knight => Grenadier.

Turn 292 – 1412 AD
Frigate attacks an Indian Caravel near Beshbalik and sinks him, now 7/8.

IBT
The enemy is spotted near Uppsala.
Turfan Grocer => Theater.
Mehmed declares war with Izzy.

Turn 293 – 1418 AD
Upgrade Caravel to Frigate in Ning-hsia for 155 Gold.

Frigate attacks Indian Caravel near Uppsala and sinks it, now 6.7/8.

IBT

Turn 294 – 1424 AD
Upgrade Caravel to Frigate in Copper Mountain.

One of our Frigates rounds the Karachi peninsula and spots Calcutta, where Gandhi has several Galleons and siege weapons and a stash of units. :hmm:

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM04/1424AD_Calcutta.jpg

IBT
New Sarai Grendier => Stable.
Tartar Caravel => Harbor.
Mehmed gets a Great General.

Turn 295 – 1430 AD
Move Frigates towards Delhi, one runs right into a Gandhi Caravel.

IBT
Turfan Theater => Observatory.
Karakorum Library => Bank.
A Great General has been born in Madrid.

Turn 296 – 1436 AD
Upgrade Caravel to Frigate in Tartar.

Frigate attacks an Indian Caravel and sinks it near Hittite, now 8/8.

Break for the night and post.
Below are screenshots of the Celt cities and their garrisons taken during the turn set. Thought it might aid us in planning for an invasion? There are some other units outside the cities, but not very many. A handful of Longbows and a couple of Knights.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM04/1394AD_Bibracte.jpg

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM04/1388AD_Camulodunum.jpg

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM04/1388AD_Tolosa.jpg

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM04/1388AD_Verlamion.jpg

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM04/1394AD_Durnovaria.jpg

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM04/1394AD_Isca.jpg

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM04/1400AD_Durocortorum.jpg

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM04/1400AD_Vienne.jpg

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM04/1412AD_Gergovia.jpg

Here is the game log if anyone is interested.

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1376 AD to 1436 AD:

Turn 286, 1376 AD: You have discovered Music!
Turn 286, 1376 AD: You have discovered Divine Right!
Turn 286, 1376 AD: You have discovered Banking!
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Galileo Galilei (Great Scientist) has been born in Nidaros (Xteam)!

Turn 287, 1382 AD: You have discovered Nationalism!
Turn 287, 1382 AD: St. Patrick (Great Prophet) has been born in Washington (Washington)!

Turn 288, 1388 AD: Xteam's Frigate (8.00) vs Gandhi's Caravel (4.20)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Combat Odds: 98.9%
Turn 288, 1388 AD: (Extra Combat: +30%)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Xteam's Frigate is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Xteam's Frigate is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Xteam's Frigate has defeated Gandhi's Caravel!
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Zoroaster (Great Prophet) has been born in Carthage (Hannibal)!

Turn 290, 1400 AD: Xteam's Frigate (8.00) vs Gandhi's Caravel (3.90)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Combat Odds: 99.2%
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Xteam's Frigate is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Xteam's Frigate is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Xteam's Frigate is hit for 14 (58/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Xteam's Frigate has defeated Gandhi's Caravel!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Hannibal has completed The Kong Miao!

Turn 291, 1406 AD: Xteam's Frigate (8.00) vs Gandhi's Caravel (3.49)
Turn 291, 1406 AD: Combat Odds: 99.5%
Turn 291, 1406 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 291, 1406 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 29 (68/100HP)
Turn 291, 1406 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 29 (39/100HP)
Turn 291, 1406 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 29 (10/100HP)
Turn 291, 1406 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 291, 1406 AD: Xteam's Frigate has defeated Gandhi's Caravel!
Turn 291, 1406 AD: Xteam's Frigate (9.60) vs Gandhi's Caravel (3.90)
Turn 291, 1406 AD: Combat Odds: 99.7%
Turn 291, 1406 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 291, 1406 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 291, 1406 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 291, 1406 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (70/100HP)
Turn 291, 1406 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (40/100HP)
Turn 291, 1406 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (10/100HP)
Turn 291, 1406 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (0/100HP)
Turn 291, 1406 AD: Xteam's Frigate has defeated Gandhi's Caravel!

Turn 292, 1412 AD: Xteam's Frigate (8.00) vs Gandhi's Caravel (3.30)
Turn 292, 1412 AD: Combat Odds: 99.6%
Turn 292, 1412 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 292, 1412 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (70/100HP)
Turn 292, 1412 AD: Xteam's Frigate is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 292, 1412 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (40/100HP)
Turn 292, 1412 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (10/100HP)
Turn 292, 1412 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (0/100HP)
Turn 292, 1412 AD: Xteam's Frigate has defeated Gandhi's Caravel!
Turn 292, 1412 AD: The borders of Copper Mountain have expanded!
Turn 292, 1412 AD: Mehmed II has declared war on Isabella!

Turn 293, 1418 AD: Xteam's Frigate (7.84) vs Gandhi's Caravel (3.90)
Turn 293, 1418 AD: Combat Odds: 98.1%
Turn 293, 1418 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 293, 1418 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 293, 1418 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 293, 1418 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 293, 1418 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 293, 1418 AD: Xteam's Frigate is hit for 14 (84/100HP)
Turn 293, 1418 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 293, 1418 AD: Xteam's Frigate has defeated Gandhi's Caravel!

Turn 294, 1424 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 36 ? for New Sarai.
Turn 294, 1424 AD: Horatio Nelson (Great General) has been born in Istanbul (Mehmed II)!

Turn 295, 1430 AD: Ivan the Terrible (Great General) has been born in Madrid (Isabella)!

Turn 296, 1436 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Hittite!
Turn 296, 1436 AD: Xteam's Frigate (8.00) vs Gandhi's Caravel (3.30)
Turn 296, 1436 AD: Combat Odds: 99.6%
Turn 296, 1436 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 296, 1436 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (70/100HP)
Turn 296, 1436 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (40/100HP)
Turn 296, 1436 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (10/100HP)
Turn 296, 1436 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (0/100HP)
Turn 296, 1436 AD: Xteam's Frigate has defeated Gandhi's Caravel!
Turn 296, 1436 AD: Your Frigate has destroyed a Caravel!

Part two, completing twenty turns:

<<< THE SAVE >>> (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/Xteam_SG004_AD1496_01.CivWarlordsSave)

The Log:
Turn 296 – 1436 AD
Pop-rush a Bank in Hittite for 4 pop points.

IBT
Hittite Bank => Observatory.
New Sarai Stable => Grenadier.

Turn 297 – 1442 AD
Frigate attacks an Indian Caravel near Bangalore and sinks it, now 5.9/8.
Frigate attacks an Indian Caravel near Karachi and sinks it, now 3.5/8.
Frigate attacks an Indian Caravel near Delhi and sinks it, now 8/8.

IBT

Turn 298 – 1448 AD
Frigate attacks Caravel near Delhi and sinks it without loss.

IBT
Washington shows up demanding that we cancel our deals with the Celts. We will soon, but not right now.
We discover Steel, enter the Industrial Age, and start research on Scientific Method, continuing at 50%.
Gems show up near Tartar.
Hannibal changes to Free Market and Isabella to Mercantilism.

Turn 299 – 1454 AD
Frigate attacks an Indian Caravel near Delhi and sinks it without loss.

IBT
Nidaros Bank => Galleon.
Copper Mountain Frigate => Frigate.
A Great Artist was born in New York.

Turn 300 – 1460 AD
Frigate attacks an Indian Caravel and sinks it without damage.
Upgrade our three best Berserkers to Grenadiers for 465 Gold.

Not much advance being made on the tech front.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM04/1460AD_TechRace.jpg

IBT
The Greatest Civilizations screen comes up and we’re last in culture, nothing new there!

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM04/1466AD_Culture.jpg

Washington comes to visit and want Chemistry for Replaceable Parts plus 20 Gold, not now. We trade Gems to him for 6 GPT.
Uppsala Caravel => Theater.

Turn 301 – 1466 AD
Our luck runs a little short as our Frigate attacks an Indian Caravel near Delhi, sinks it, but is now 4.9/8.
There is a Galleon in Bangalore, watch for troop movements to our side of the channel. As soon as a Frigate heals, we’ll send him north.

IBT
Old Sarai Bank => Observatory.
New Sarai Grenadier => Cannon.

Turn 302 – 1472 AD
Upgrade Caravel to Frigate in Uppsala.

Sell Sheep to Washington for 4 GPT.
Sell Gold to Isabella for 7 GPT.
Pop-rush a Harbor in Tartar for 2 Pop points.

IBT
Izzy comes calling and wishes us to declare on the Ottomans, sorry honey.
Tartar Harbor => Theater.

Turn 303 – 1478 AD
Frigate attacks an Indian Caravel near Bangalore and sinks it, now 7/8.
Upgrade Berserker to Grenadier for 155 Gold.
No change in trade screen.
Pop-rush a Bank in Haithabu for 2 pop points.

IBT
Nidaros Galleon => Galleon.
Haithabu Bank => Cannon.
Ning-hsia Frigate => Galleon.

Turn 304 – 1484 AD
Brennus has Rifling.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM04/1484AD_Bibracte.jpg

Adjust research to 60%, Scientific Method in 4 turns.
Upgrade a Berserker to a Grenadier.
Frigate attacks an Indian Caravel and sinks it, now 7.5/8.

IBT
The enemy has been spotted near Hittite.

Turn 305 – 1490 AD
The enemy unit spotted is a Caravel.
Upgrade a Berserker to a Grenadier.
Pop-rush a Bank in Karakorum for 3 pop points.

IBT
The enemy has been spotted near New Sarai.
New Sarai Cannon => Cannon.
Karakorum Bank => Observatory.
Mehmed adopts Representation.

Turn 306 – 1496 AD
Pillage a Fishing Net near Dehli for 7 Gold.
Pillage a Clam near Bombay for 4 Gold.
Turfan’s culture expanded and now we can irrigate to Old Sarai.
Upgrade a Berserker to a Grenadier.

After Action Report.
I think it is time to trade Chemistry around. We need Replaceable Parts, Constitution, Military Tradition and Education. I have not traded, and it took all the discipline I had, as I did not want Brennus getting Frigates too soon as I hope we will begin planning to go after him soonest. He got Rifling several turns back but doesn’t have too much gold for upgrades.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM04/1496AD_Trades.jpg

I have been upgrading our Berserkers to Grenadiers and have started building Cannons. The Army sits outside of Nidaros, which is building Galleons for transport. I tried to upgrade the most experienced troops as well as those that recently promoted. I have not upgraded those nearing promotions.

We are currently researching at 60% and making 105 GPT, which I have been using for upgrades. Scientific Method is due in two turns. My recommendation would be that we trade for Replaceable Parts and then go Steam Power, Railroad and Combustion to control the seas?

On India, our Military Advisor says Gandhi has three Caravels, one which we can destroy next turn off the coast near New Sarai, another in port in Delhi and a third in port in Bombay. Ganhi also has three Galleons, one in Bangalore, which we have bottled up, and two in Calcutta, which we have an eye on.

Don’t know if it is worth it, but I have Theaters under construction in Uppsala and Tartar to try to push back some of India’s encroaching borders. Some of our cities are becoming unhealthy because of the growth but it isn’t causing a problem at the moment. I have been using the whip, so please check the unhappiness before pop-rushing. The Forge in Samarqand can be pop-rushed in another couple of turns. Beshbalik needs major help! Old Sarai can probably be pop-rushed soon as well.

We have a Great Person due in Nidaros in 14 turns and we are creeping up on another Great General so we should start thinking about the best use for them.

Any questions, please ask. :mischief: Good luck!! :thumbsup:

From the game turn log if you are interested:
Here is your Session Turn Log from 1436 AD to 1496 AD:

Turn 296, 1436 AD: Xteam's Frigate (8.00) vs Gandhi's Caravel (3.30)
Turn 296, 1436 AD: Combat Odds: 99.6%
Turn 296, 1436 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 296, 1436 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (70/100HP)
Turn 296, 1436 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (40/100HP)
Turn 296, 1436 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (10/100HP)
Turn 296, 1436 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (0/100HP)
Turn 296, 1436 AD: Xteam's Frigate has defeated Gandhi's Caravel!

Turn 297, 1442 AD: Xteam's Frigate (8.00) vs Gandhi's Caravel (3.30)
Turn 297, 1442 AD: Combat Odds: 99.7%
Turn 297, 1442 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 297, 1442 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (70/100HP)
Turn 297, 1442 AD: Xteam's Frigate is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 297, 1442 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (40/100HP)
Turn 297, 1442 AD: Xteam's Frigate is hit for 13 (74/100HP)
Turn 297, 1442 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (10/100HP)
Turn 297, 1442 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (0/100HP)
Turn 297, 1442 AD: Xteam's Frigate has defeated Gandhi's Caravel!
Turn 297, 1442 AD: Xteam's Frigate (8.00) vs Gandhi's Caravel (3.90)
Turn 297, 1442 AD: Combat Odds: 99.2%
Turn 297, 1442 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 297, 1442 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 297, 1442 AD: Xteam's Frigate is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 297, 1442 AD: Xteam's Frigate is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 297, 1442 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 297, 1442 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 297, 1442 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 297, 1442 AD: Xteam's Frigate is hit for 14 (58/100HP)
Turn 297, 1442 AD: Xteam's Frigate is hit for 14 (44/100HP)
Turn 297, 1442 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 297, 1442 AD: Xteam's Frigate has defeated Gandhi's Caravel!
Turn 297, 1442 AD: Xteam's Frigate (8.00) vs Gandhi's Caravel (3.30)
Turn 297, 1442 AD: Combat Odds: 99.6%
Turn 297, 1442 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 297, 1442 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (70/100HP)
Turn 297, 1442 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (40/100HP)
Turn 297, 1442 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (10/100HP)
Turn 297, 1442 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (0/100HP)
Turn 297, 1442 AD: Xteam's Frigate has defeated Gandhi's Caravel!

Turn 298, 1448 AD: Xteam's Frigate (8.00) vs Gandhi's Caravel (3.30)
Turn 298, 1448 AD: Combat Odds: 99.6%
Turn 298, 1448 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 298, 1448 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (70/100HP)
Turn 298, 1448 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (40/100HP)
Turn 298, 1448 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (10/100HP)
Turn 298, 1448 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (0/100HP)
Turn 298, 1448 AD: Xteam's Frigate has defeated Gandhi's Caravel!
Turn 298, 1448 AD: You have discovered Steel!
Turn 298, 1448 AD: You have discovered a source of Gems near Tartar!
Turn 298, 1448 AD: Buddhism has spread in Birka.
Turn 298, 1448 AD: Hannibal adopts Free Market!
Turn 298, 1448 AD: Isabella adopts Mercantilism!

Turn 299, 1454 AD: Xteam's Frigate (8.00) vs Gandhi's Caravel (3.30)
Turn 299, 1454 AD: Combat Odds: 99.6%
Turn 299, 1454 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 299, 1454 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (70/100HP)
Turn 299, 1454 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (40/100HP)
Turn 299, 1454 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (10/100HP)
Turn 299, 1454 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (0/100HP)
Turn 299, 1454 AD: Xteam's Frigate has defeated Gandhi's Caravel!
Turn 299, 1454 AD: Raphael (Great Artist) has been born in New York (Washington)!

Turn 300, 1460 AD: Xteam's Frigate (8.00) vs Gandhi's Caravel (3.30)
Turn 300, 1460 AD: Combat Odds: 99.6%
Turn 300, 1460 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 300, 1460 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (70/100HP)
Turn 300, 1460 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (40/100HP)
Turn 300, 1460 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (10/100HP)
Turn 300, 1460 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (0/100HP)
Turn 300, 1460 AD: Xteam's Frigate has defeated Gandhi's Caravel!
Turn 300, 1460 AD: Washington's Golden Age has begun!!!

Turn 301, 1466 AD: Xteam's Frigate (8.00) vs Gandhi's Caravel (3.60)
Turn 301, 1466 AD: Combat Odds: 99.5%
Turn 301, 1466 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 301, 1466 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 301, 1466 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 301, 1466 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 301, 1466 AD: Xteam's Frigate is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 301, 1466 AD: Xteam's Frigate is hit for 13 (74/100HP)
Turn 301, 1466 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 301, 1466 AD: Xteam's Frigate is hit for 13 (61/100HP)
Turn 301, 1466 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 301, 1466 AD: Xteam's Frigate has defeated Gandhi's Caravel!

Turn 302, 1472 AD: Zhang Qian (Great Merchant) has been born in Bibracte (Brennus)!

Turn 303, 1478 AD: Xteam's Frigate (8.00) vs Gandhi's Caravel (3.60)
Turn 303, 1478 AD: Combat Odds: 99.6%
Turn 303, 1478 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 303, 1478 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 303, 1478 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 303, 1478 AD: Xteam's Frigate is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 303, 1478 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 303, 1478 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 303, 1478 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 303, 1478 AD: Xteam's Frigate has defeated Gandhi's Caravel!

Turn 304, 1484 AD: Xteam's Frigate (7.52) vs Gandhi's Caravel (3.60)
Turn 304, 1484 AD: Combat Odds: 99.3%
Turn 304, 1484 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 304, 1484 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 304, 1484 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 304, 1484 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 304, 1484 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 304, 1484 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 304, 1484 AD: Xteam's Frigate has defeated Gandhi's Caravel!
Turn 304, 1484 AD: Your Frigate has destroyed a Caravel!
Turn 304, 1484 AD: Werner Heisenberg (Great Scientist) has been born in Delhi (Gandhi)!

Turn 305, 1490 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Hittite!
Turn 305, 1490 AD: The borders of Turfan have expanded!
Turn 305, 1490 AD: Mehmed II adopts Representation!

Turn 306, 1496 AD: The enemy has been spotted near New Sarai!
Turn 306, 1496 AD: You have plundered 7? from the Fishing Boats!
Turn 306, 1496 AD: You have plundered 4? from the Fishing Boats!

Roster:
Cactus Pete - UP
Gator - On Deck
Frederiksberg
RRAU
Bede
Sanabas
Leif - just played.

CP may be delayed a couple of more days and Gator may not be available either. If you have the time Frederiksberg, please let me know and we may adjust the roster. :thanx:

There is much to discuss. The trading situation, the research path and war with Brennus to start?

@leif - could you turn off the Exotic Foreign Advisor in the Hof Options, please. It is still reporting as researchable items I know Gandhi has, like Liberalism. And, frankly, I find the display difficult to interpret.

And I need somebody to run down for me why Brennus should be our target. If I were to pick one it just might be Washington, as he has the the greatest late game potential.

I hope Frederiksberg can go ahead of me, as I still have RL responsibilities.

Haven't time to look at save, but from the thread my thought is that we need more galleons quickly so we can attack Brennus ASAP.

I hope Frederiksberg can go ahead of me, as I still have RL responsibilities.
No problem CP.
Updated Roster:
Frederiksberg - UP
Cactus Pete - On Deck
Gator
RRAU
Bede
Sanabas
Leif

I'm going away for the weekend but might be able to play sunday evening. Can't promise to play before wednesday though so if someone else wants to have a go that might be better....

Perhaps we should stop playing through the weekend and use the time to each have a look at the save and think about:

1. Whether we want to go to war, with who and why? What would our objectives be, to wipe out or make Vassals of civs?
2. Research path and potential trades?
3. Who to befriend diplomatically for the short term and why?
4. If we do want to go to war, do we want allies?

I think we are at one of those points where we should stop to consider, as a team, what our future direction ought to be? We have many options available to us right now and choosing which path to take may be more important right now.

Comments?

Our war opponent needs to be Brennus, Mehmed or Hannibal because Ghandi's annoyed towards all 3 of them and likely won't trade with them. Also, Brennus is Furious towards Ghandi and Mehmed and Hannibal are both annoyed towards Ghandi. If the point of the game is to keep people trading with Ghandi, we need to not hurt his friends until late in the game.

The Celts also have Versailles, a nice addition to a new territory.

Looking at RRAU's diplomacy info, I find it interesting that, geopgraphically, Izzy and Washington are between the other three. Even if we conquer Brennus, Mehmed and Hannibal, our empire would be four geographically separate areas. :hmm:

I think that with America's potential, Washington could assist Gandhi in research.

Perhaps if we did take Brennus, Hannibal and Mehmed, we would be in a position to launch an attack on either of the others once we decide their help to Gandhi is no longer necessary, or if they start getting close to a spaceship?

I think we can decide what to do with Hannibal, Mehmed, etc. at a later date.

TO DO IMMEDIATELY:

Reduce Science to 0% to accelerate upgrading

Trade Nationalism to Izzy for gold and Philosophy
Trade wine to Hannibal for gpt
Trade gems to Mehmed for gpt
Trade sheep to Brennus for gpt

Move units near Nidaros by land to a more forward staging area NE of Copper Mtn.

Move knight and grenadier south of Hittite toward Ning-hsia for eventual overseas deployment (probably into Toledo and on toward the Celts)

Begin chopping forests near Ning-hsia to speed along galleon

TO DO ASAP:

Build Galleons and cannons

Upgrade catapult, city raider beserkers, and (when galleon space becomes available) horse archers

Move galley into cultural waters, upgrade to galleon, and use to transport troops west to other continent

Chop forests west of Copper Mtn. and Nidaros

RESEARCH:

I think upgrading units is much more needed than any tech at this point.

TRADING:

Don’t trade Chemistry until one other civ has it (rather maintain tactical advantage going into war)

WAR SRATEGY:

Start producing units in all cities as soon as present builds are completed
Target Bibracte with Great Lighthouse and then possibly Versailles city next
Accompany galleons with frigates;
use frigates to help reduce city defenses;
after our initial armada (foresee at least four galleons filled with grenadiers and as many cannon as we have available) beaches near Bibracte, set up a protected galleon chain from Copper Mountain to the other continent;
wounded amphibious grenadiers moved back onto ships (have found that promoting one unit per ship with the red cross and sailing outside enemy water to heal all units after attack works well).

Pillage the horse pasture SW of Bibracte to reduce problems with knights and cavalry

If decide to wipe Brennus out entirely, then may need to revolt to Police State (probably together with Free Market, State Property, or Environmentalism) to ward of war weariness.

Eventually transport our excess out-of-date units to serve as MP’s in conquered Celt cities.

QUERIES:

What city is the Palace at Versailles in?

Does our researching Scientific Method obsolete Gandhi’s Great Library?

Do we want to deliver some workers to India?

Is there a good strategy to help India’s religion spread?

TRADING:

Don’t trade Chemistry until one other civ has it (rather maintain tactical advantage going into war)
Mehmed has had Chemistry throughout my turn set but has not traded it. I thought about trading it because our luck cannot go on forever.

What city is the Palace at Versailles in?
I don't know how to figure out what city it is built in. I know it was built in 1322 AD by Brennus, but where?? I checked the detailed logs that we get when we upload the save and it only says Brennus built it. I checked the Info Screen and the Top 5 Cities/Wonder. It tells me all about Versaille and who owns it but not where??

Does our researching Scientific Method obsolete Gandhi’s Great Library?
According to the Civlopedia, "Some Wonders can become obsolete over time. This obsolescence is caused by any civilization in the game learning a specific technology. When that occurs, the wonder's special effects vanish..."
My conclusion, when we discover Scientific Method, the Great Library will be obsolete.

Do we want to deliver some workers to India?
We could. My guess is that when we start taking Celt cities, we'll get a bunch to use over there?

Is there a good strategy to help India’s religion spread?
I understand that religion is best spread through peaceful relations (Open Borders) and trading. If we're about to start wars, we will probably hinder the spread. The only other way is for us to spread it using Hindu Missionaries. However, we do not have a city with Hindu religion to build one. Also, Scientific Method obsoletes Monastery. My guess is that the only way to build them then would be to capture a city with Hinduism and have the Organized Religion Civic?

The only Celt city that is Hindu is Durocortorum.

"Mehmed has had Chemistry throughout my turn set but has not traded it. I thought about trading it because our luck cannot go on forever."

I meant one more civ in addition to Mehmed.

"My conclusion, when we discover Scientific Method, the Great Library will be obsolete." So let's not discover it right now. Is there a great immediate need?

Any of my suggestions raise questions?

In response to Bede's question I see many reasons to pick Brennus as our next target: He's first in score and thus a potential rival for space victory. He's furious at Gandhi (as noted by rrau) and thus not a good trading partner for Gandhi. He might even declare war on him. He has some nice cities with attractive wonders like the Great Lighthouse and the Versaille. His military is not that strong. I agree that Hannibal and Washington could also become dangerous rivals at some point but I think we can deal with that later as CP says.

I agree with CP that galleons and cannons are what we need the most right now. Our CR grenadiers can win this war even against riflemen so upgrading all berserkers sounds like a good idea too. One detail we should remember is to promote our berserkers with CR before upgrading because the CR upgrade is not available for grenadiers. We might even consider building a few extra berserkers with the intention of upgrading to grenadiers because it will enable them to get the amphibious promotion for free and the CR promotion. Maybe it's too expensive?

If we have enough frigates we could contemplate a surprise attack on Bibracte where we use the frigates to bomb down the cultural defense and then let our amphibious promoted Grenadiers attack directly off the boat. Would mean that we could attack and hopefully capture Bibracte in the same turn we declare war.

Delivering workers to India is a good idea but maybe we are too late since I would expect that most of the Indian lands are developed now. Doesn't hurt us to try it so if we have some to spare lets give them to Gandhi.

Like Leif says we need a hindu city with a monastery to start making missionaries. At this late stage I would rather advocate that we shoot for the UN and pass a free religion resolution to improve the relations between Gandhi and the other civs. We could also pass resolutions regarding free trade (right now 3 civs are using mercantilism thus limiting trade route income) and as I stated before (:deadhorse:) a ban on nuclear weapons. Nuclear war is the last thing we want. Imagine Gandhi getting nukes. Since we are at war he decides to use one against us. This angers all other civs and a couple of them declare war on Gandhi and they fire their nukes at him. The worst thing about this scenario is that there is absolutely nothing we can do to stop it! Except if we can manage to ban nuclear weapons!

Leif - I can play wednesday, but we could also revert to the original rooster if CP is ready.

The Great Library (and any other Wonder) only goes obsolete when the nation owning it learns the obsoleting technology. So as long as Gandhi delays SciMeth his two scientists are safe.

And many thanks to the Strategists - all is become more pellucid to these old eyes.

And many thanks to the Strategists - all is become more pellucid to these old eyes.
Thank God it was in the dictionary. You're scaring me with words like that!!
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Looks like we're going to war once again! :hammer:

How are you doing CP? Ready to start or would you prefer Frederkisberg to take the set on Wednesday?

"We might even consider building a few extra berserkers with the intention of upgrading to grenadiers because it will enable them to get the amphibious promotion for free and the CR promotion. Maybe it's too expensive?"

Let's just keep a few unpromoted beserkers that we already have un-upgraded. They are about as good as grenadiers once you reduce defenses to melee units and can get their raider promotions doing that mop-up work.

"If we have enough frigates we could contemplate a surprise attack on Bibracte where we use the frigates to bomb down the cultural defense and then let our amphibious promoted Grenadiers attack directly off the boat. Would mean that we could attack and hopefully capture Bibracte in the same turn we declare war."

I'm skeptical that this appealing idea will work very well. Do we (or will we soon) have enough galleons in place to carry enough grenadiers? Without the collateral damage from cannons it will not be easy to defeat units in a city on a hill. Also, frigates degrade city defenses slowly, especially with the new Warlord fortification paradigms (that I'm still trying to figure out . . . anybody know where they are explained?). Frederiksburg, have you estimated how many frigates and naval grenadiers would likely be needed?

BTW, next Great General should probably be used to promote multiple minimally-promoted units in the field, since it's unclear whether we will be doing any more serious warring after Brennus is disposed of.

Interesting discussion of UN resolutions. I've never gotten that far in a game. I will need more mentoring when we get there.

I can play a little beginning Monday mid-morning, but I doubt that I will have enough time available to be finished by Tuesday night. If Frederiksberg cannot play after Wednesday, we might be better off to wait for him and let me play soon after he finishes. Please let me know what you'd have me do.

I should have time during next weekend as well so please go ahead. What does capt. Leif say? And is there any chance Gator might be able to play? (he's before me in the original rooster).

Haven't tested exactly how many units would be needed for a surprise attack. We are up against a rifle, 5 lbows, a pike and a cat so the minimum amount of troops needed are 8 but that would require some luck since the city defender rifle also has the guerilla promotion for extra hills defence. Without any exact calculation my guess is that our grenadiers are huge favorites against the remaining troops. Grenadier vs. lbow should be somewhat similar to sword vs. archer since the strengths are simply scaled with a factor two. Scaling is probably in our favor since it increases the absolute difference in strength. I'll se if I can figure out how to test this... If it doesn't work out we could do the surprise attack on a weaker city near Bibracte.

It's a good idea to keep some berserkers and upgrade them in our captured cities when and if we feel there is a need for this. This could save some money.

I should have time during next weekend as well so please go ahead. What does capt. Leif say? And is there any chance Gator might be able to play? (he's before me in the original rooster).
I am more concerned that we are in basic agreement and ready to move ahead and it appears that we are.
In viewing the Progress Chart, we are in the top third of teams headed towards completion, so I think that we can stick with the roster as it stands, Frederiksberg on Wednesday and CP to follow?
I think Gator still needs some time.
The turn sets are getting longer and if you are short on time, there is no reason you can't play a 10 turn set instead of 20, especially as we go to war. My last two sets I played ten turn per night for two nights as it made it easier.

It's a good idea to keep some berserkers and upgrade them in our captured cities when and if we feel there is a need for this. This could save some money.
We can do this as Berserkers will eat Longbows, but I think we know that we are going to want to promote them to City Raiders as we can build Grenadiers and promote them to other things, like Pinch and Formation. Keeping them as Berserkers until they win their first victory and we can promote them to CR2, then upgrade to Grenadiers.

Any of my suggestions raise questions?
Not really. I think the idea is to get to Brennus as quickly as possible while we still have an advantage over him. Galleons are the factor restricting things at the moment. We can change Old Sarai to a Galleon as well as Copper Mountain. Nidaros is building them one every 4 turns, iirc.

If we're going to attack Bibracte first, I think we should have some cannons along to reduce the entire garrison. The problem here is that the Frigates are out of position as they have been chasing Indian Caravels. Getting them to Bibracte will probably require more time than gathering the forces needed to deliberately attack the city and leaves us open to attack from India.

OK - I will do my turns wednesday evening - most probably only 10 turns. I will post back later today with a summary of my intentions for the turn set based on our recent discussions.

Quoth CP quoting Fred: "If we have enough frigates we could contemplate a surprise attack on Bibracte where we use the frigates to bomb down the cultural defense and then let our amphibious promoted Grenadiers attack directly off the boat. Would mean that we could attack and hopefully capture Bibracte in the same turn we declare war."

I'm skeptical that this appealing idea will work very well. Do we (or will we soon) have enough galleons in place to carry enough grenadiers? Without the collateral damage from cannons it will not be easy to defeat units in a city on a hill. Also, frigates degrade city defenses slowly, especially with the new Warlord fortification paradigms (that I'm still trying to figure out . . . anybody know where they are explained?). Frederiksburg, have you estimated how many frigates and naval grenadiers would likely be needed? End Quoth

It will take lots of frigates as they reduce defenses about 3 points per barrage, but it is both feasible and useful as a softening up tactic. I generally use the boats to bring the defenses down to around 10 or 15% then make the landing with the ground seige and attack troops, holding the amphib troops in reserve until the defenders are weakened to the maximum.

Works a whole lot better when you have destroyers and an air force.

The related tactic that works nicely is to keep the frigates moving ahead of the troop carriers, bombarding each target city while the troop carriers consolidate the healthy ground troops for the next coastal assault.

Six frigates will put a nice dent in coastal city defenses with a single barrage.

Capturing a city from the sea on the sound of the war horns is a gutsy move and takes lots of ships and troops in this era.

Pleased to wait my turn.

Frederiksberg . . . Those longbows will get quickly upgraded to cavalry, which is a strong argument for your one-turn attack plan (provided you can get to the Celt capital before he has already upgraded). However, I agree with leif that our frigates are in some disarray, so it's seems a close call. Even if you can only do a little degrading with the available frigates, it might work out to attack as soon as you can and in one turn anyway -- basically making up what we lose in degradation by what we would gain by not having to go against multiple riflemen. You may want to wait a few turns until ready to sail and see what's in the city before deciding whether to put cannons aboard your initial armada.

Pleased to wait my turn.
Thanks CP. :D

.... Even if you can only do a little degrading with the available frigates, it might work out to attack as soon as you can and in one turn anyway -- basically making up what we lose in degradation by what we would gain by not having to go against multiple riflemen. You may want to wait a few turns until ready to sail and see what's in the city before deciding whether to put cannons aboard your initial armada.
If we can quickly gather enough Galleons, and in 10 turns, I'm not sure we can, we can still take along some Cannons. They can degrade the units in the city but will probably not survive. So the unit they attack will probably not be injured much but the units under will still received the same losses, no? :crazyeye:

EDIT - Sorry, just saw Brother Bede's post. And I agree with him. We currently have 12 Frigates running about. We may be able to get 6 of them headed for Bibracte in a reasonable amount of time. I think we just need to keep in mind that we have to maintain some sort of effort against Gandhi. I think that 4 or 5 Firgates should handle that job. Most of Gandhi's Navy is in Calcutta, which we have an eye on. There is also a Galleon in the city near Tartar(?) which we have blockaded.

And, by the way, the best reason to keep researching that I can think of is to get to Combustion first in order to ensure we rule the waves. I was looking at the game several hours ago and it seems to me that I have upgraded a significant number of Berserkers. What remains to be upgraded are the Catapult and the Galley and, perhaps, two or three more Berserkers. They remain useful and I would hesitate to upgrade them until they have CR2 where possible, unless we start seeing a lot more Rifles and fewer Longbows.

Agree, Leif . . . those or the same five units that I had in mind, plus in time the horse archers (although the one with the red cross might go as is with the second wave). Doesn't look to me like we're in any immediate danger of getting behind in naval tech.

Doesn't look to me like we're in any immediate danger of getting behind in naval tech.
Agreed, but it never hurts to be too far ahead either! :lol: :lol: :lol:

I had another look at the save. I think we could have 5 galleons and 6-7 frigates outside Bibracte in 7 turns or so. The galleons could be loaded with 13-14 Grenadiers and 1-2 cannons. I think that's enough to capture the city with the defenders that are inside now. If Brennus upgrades more of his longbows we probably need to lay siege to the city and land our troops outside instead of attacking directly off the boat.

Apart from carrying out this attack plan I will do the tech trade with Izzy proposed by CP and also the resource for gpt deals. Won't trade Chemistry until it's more commonly known.

I will do some upgrades of berserkers and set science to 0% for a while. Anybody still worried about discovering SciMeth? I'm quite sure Bede is right that we do not obsolete the GLib this way.

Cities will be set to produce cannons and galleons.

Did I leave out anything important?

I will play wednesday evening CET so there is still time to make further suggestions.

"Did I leave out anything important?"

Take out the horse pasture as soon as you can. It can be difficult anticipating the AI's moves if he can move six tiles per turn, not to mention the firepower of cavalry (which Brennus may have when you attack and certainly is a threat to have soon).

Six frigates with Combat promotions will reduce defenses pretty nicely, making the cannons even more effective. And you may want to use two or even three rounds of frigate bombardment before landing the ground troops. Land the troops on the turn before the last frigate bombardment. That way the cannon can do their collateral damage attack the turn after landing.

Agree with Bede's strategy only if longbows have been upgraded to riflemen.

I have made a note of the comments. If the immediate attack from the boat has a good chance of success (i.e. 1-2 rifles in Bibracte) I will try this - otherwise I will go for Bede's suggestion - maybe with the modification that I immediately land one or two pillaging units headed for the horses. We have a formation promoted grenadier that should be good for defending against any cavalry. I was thinking of building a couple of pikes in New Sarai with the intention of giving them combat II and formation. They would have reasonable odds against cavalry.

Just found out that only Mehmed requires 40% (3 of 7) of civs to have a tech before he's willing to trade it. Other civs in our game require 30% (2 of 7).

I have only played 6 turns but the chances of making a quick, successful attack look small so I want to pause for discussion of our options.

Pre-turn: Sell sheep, sugar and wine for gpt. Trade Nationalism for Philosophy and 170 gold. Science set to 0%. Change to building galleons in Tartar and Old Sarai.

1502 AD: Pop rush galleons in Tartar and Old Sarai. Move troops.
1508 AD: Upgrade a few units. Move troops.
1514 AD: Game crashes. Have to replay most of the turn. Mostly troop movements. Science back on to get SciMeth.
1520 AD: Move units. Brennus now have one cavalry in Bibracte and one cavalry in Vienne and a couple of knights near Gergovia that could be upgraded.
1523 AD: Pop rush Forge in Samarquand and Grocer in Beshbalik. Brennus now have 2 cavalry in Bibracte, 2 in Vienne and still the 2 knights outside Gergovia. We could be facing a strong counterattack when we land our 15 units (13 grenadiers and 2 cannons).
1526 AD: Galleons approach Bibracte. Seems that an attack has little chance of success.

Pic:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=151646&stc=1&d=1176931544

I couldn't upload the save so here it is:
1526 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=151647&stc=1&d=1176931544)

The main problem is Brennus cavalry. He has 2 in Bibracte and 2 in Vienne plus at least 2 knights that will surely be upgraded when we declare war. I don't think an amphibious surprise attack can be successful since we don't have units that are strong against cavalry (Only one grenadier with both amphibious and formation). A couple of alternative options:

1) Do an amphibious attack on a less well defended city now. Isca is only defended by a rifle, a crosbow and a cat and should be easy to capture. We might even be able to attack two cities simultaneously. I think there are 2 rifles in Gergovia so it's a bit harder to take amphibiously. Another possibility would be to attack Isca and simultaneously knock out the two knigths near Gergovia with an amphibious attack before they are upgraded.

2) Postpone the attack and build a stronger attack force. Maybe trade for MilTrad and include some cavalry units in the attack. That will postpone the attack 6-7 turns but it increases the chance that we can respond well to counterattacks by Brennus's cavalry.

I can do a few more turns friday evening if we have found a good way forward by then.

:blush: My power supply blew on my Civ 4 computer system. :cry:

I can't look at the save until the new one arrives, hopefully Friday. :please:

Based upon what I remember, New Sarai can push out a couple of Combat2 and Formation Grenadiers in about 4 or 5 turns a piece? If there is another Galleon available to rush them over? :hmm:

We could take a couple of other cities, but if production is good in the capital, we'll face more troops. Cannons are the other key. It is a tough call as waiting may allow him to get Chemistry but it also means us being better prepared to meet the counters.

I need to think a bit more... :mischief:

I see the glass as half full:

The best place to attack cavalry with our city-raider-dominated forces is when they are in a city (much better than allowing them to attack us).

The best time to attack longbowmen is before they are promoted to riflemen. Just one of our double-city-raider grenadiers has an attack against a longbow of 18.6 versus a single-promoted longbow's city defense of 15.3. (It would be good for someone else to do this calculation as a check.)

My calculations (caveated by two questions that follow) are that in a surprise attack we will be favored in every battle, though usually not by much. (Not certain of this. If someone disagrees, please explain.)
By attacking from ships, we will not leave wounded units vulnerable to counterattack. Can either keep them on board or hopefully sail into city to heal more quickly there.

If we are able to occupy the city, any remaining healthy grenadiers (defending from a hill) will immediately have roughly equivalent firepower to cavalry and with fortification time exceed it .

The AI will not pillage until the city's cultural border expands.

If we fail to take the city but win the majority of the battles, we will retain healing forces in place (at sea) with reinforcements plus a Great General coming and should still be in a position to do Brennus grievous harm . . . perhaps immediately, perhaps after a little time.

Two queries:

What sort of collateral damage would our cannons achieve if they attacked from our galleons?

Is it the case that cavalry gets absolutely no defensive advantages, including the 60% cultural city defense?

Tactical considerations:

We need to wait for the trailing galleon to arrive, both because those units are needed to have any reasonable chance to take the city on the first attack and because their presence gives us better opportunity to pillage the horse pasture quickly, whether we take the city or not.

Attack the rifleman with the triple-city-raider-no-anti-archery grenadier.

Try to leave one of the anti-mounted-unit grenadiers as healthy as possible at turns end.

Use the two grenadiers that have 7/10 and 8/10 experience late in the initial attack to maximize their chance of victory and thus get them promotions, which will provide some options -- red cross, anti-mounted units, hill or city defense, etc.

The Great General should promote beserkers.

Two queries:

What sort of collateral damage would our cannons achieve if they attacked from our galleons?

Is it the case that cavalry gets absolutely no defensive advantages, including the 60% cultural city defense?


Good questions. Looking at Combat Explained (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/combat_explained.php) there is some indication that collateral damage is not affected by the amphibious attack since the article states that normal defensive bonuses do not apply when calculating the collateral damage. The cavalry shouldn't get any defensive bonuses (at all) - on the other hand I have never tested this.

I don't think the cannon can hurt the top defender (rifle) so I'm tempted to wait with burning the cannons until the rifle is wounded.

If the target is to capture and defend Bibracte I think there is little chance of success but if the target is redefined as killing as many longbows as possible before they can be upgraded it looks much better. And as you mention it's an advantage to attack the cavalry while inside the city. My estimate of a likely outcome of an amphibious attack is that we fail to capture Bibracte but succeed in killing most of the defenders (we wait for the trailing galleon to catch up before the attack).

"The cavalry shouldn't get any defensive bonuses (at all) - on the other hand I have never tested this.

I don't think the cannon can hurt the top defender (rifle) so I'm tempted to wait with burning the cannons until the rifle is wounded."

The cavalry will show up quickly as a powerful defender, if it gets the 60% bonus. You could then go to your plan 1 above, plus pillaging the pasture (even with some sacrifice). I like delaying the cannon attack until after the rifleman. If you see from the first attack that the cannon's collateral damage is halved, then you may want to save the second one for much later in the turn, perhaps against a wounded unit.

"My estimate of a likely outcome of an amphibious attack is that we fail to capture Bibracte but succeed in killing most of the defenders (we wait for the trailing galleon to catch up before the attack)."

Yes, but with another frigate barrage and hopefully a couple of nearly healthy units available, there's a good chance we will take it on the succeeding turn (or else probably not for a long time), and Bibracte is the prize. Holding it (especially for the next turn) and pillaging are more problematic. The far trailing galleon with two beserkers and pikeman aboard may be key. If you consolidate surviving units and thus empty one galleon, you can send it to meet the beserkers and get them into the city on the next turn (assuming you are able to capture the city). If you can hold for one turn, you can upgrade them if needed. The upgraded pikeman on a hill would then have an advantage over cavalry.

You may want to poprush the galleon in Copper Mtn. next turn because we will certainly need units ASAP. Once our mounted units are in play, we can trade Sc. Method (or Chemistry, if another civ has it by then) to Mehmed (who won't re-trade it immediately) or possibly Washington for Military Tradition and upgrade them.

If the RNG is very unkind, pull back and regroup.

IIRC, Cavalry have a 50% bonus versus Cannons. So the Cavalry may be the first on top should we attack with Cannons first. If this happens, the Rifle will be degraded. Then when we attack, we'll have to try and match the best attacker against the weakest defender, not an easy thing to do as the best defender against a particular attacking unit will pop up nearly every time.

OK - I'm convinced now that we should still try the amphibious attack when the trailing galleon catches up (one turn from now I think). Even if we don't manage to capture Bibracte we can probably kill enough of Brennus's units to make it worth while.

I will probably keep the 2nd cannon in reserve hoping to use it in a combat where it will have reasonable victory odds. The non-amphibious grenadier is a problem but he might be useful for mopping up badly wounded defenders. Forgot about the cavalry bonus against siege weapons. Might mean that burning the 1st cannon immediately is the best strategy after all.

"Forgot about the cavalry bonus against siege weapons." I don't think that I was even aware of it. Good show, lief. Does it hold when the cavalry is defending as well as attacking?

No one has quarreled with my assertion that we can be favored in all battles. Hope that's because you've double checked me on that.

The cannon with the city raider promotion should obviously be the one held in reserve.

If it becomes obvious that the city is untakable in one turn, the non-amphibious grenadier might be landed on the hill next to the horse pasture as a sacrifice (but certainly not if he can dispatch a potentially powerful defender). I'm thinking better Brennus's cavalry attack him than guard the city.

If we get the city and hold it, anticipate being attacked with seige weapons as well as cavalry.

Unfortunately, I think the trailing galleon is two turns away.

No one has quarreled with my assertion that we can be favored in all battles. Hope that's because you've double checked me on that.

I tried to calculate the strengths according to the principles in Combat Explained (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/combat_explained.php). I assume that the cultural defense of Bibracte is reduced to 40%

Combat I, CR III Grenadier vs. Guerilla I, CD I Rifle:

Grenadier:
Modified Strength= 12 + 10% (Combat I) =13.2
Bonus vs Rifle in city: 75%+10% (CR III) + 50% (Unit ability) = 135%

Rifle:
Base Strengt=14
Bonus= 20% (CD I) + 20% (Guerilla) + 25% (Hill) + 25% (Fortify) + 40% (culture) = 130%
Modified strength= 14/(1.05)=13.3

Rifle is a very sligth favourite.

Combat I, CR II, Cover Grenadier vs. CD I, Guerilla Longbow:

Grenadier:
Modified Strength= 12 + 10% (Combat I) =13.2
Bonus vs Longbow in city: 45% (CR II) + 25% (Cover) = 65%

Longbow:
Base Strengt=6
Bonus= 20% (CD I) + 20% (Guerilla) + 50% (Unit ability) + 25% (Hill) + 25% (Fortify) + 40% (culture) = 180%
Modified strength= 6*2.15=12.9

On top of this the longbow has a first strike that makes it stronger. About even again.

To see the effect of upgrades we can analyze the same combat with a rifle instead of a longbow:

Combat I, CR II, Cover Grenadier vs. CD I Rifle:

Grenadier:
Modified Strength= 12 + 10% (Combat I) =13.2
Bonus vs Rifle in city: 45% (CR II) + 50% (Unit ability) = 95%

Rifle:
Base Strengt=14
Bonus= 20% (CD I) + 20% (Guerilla) + 25% (Hill) + 25% (Fortify) + 40% (culture) = 130%
Modified strength= 14*1.35=18.9

Now the rifle is a clear favourite.

If, however, we remove the cultural defense entirely the strength of the rifle is reduced to 14/1.05=13.3. This indicates that waiting a few turns to bomb down the cultural defences should more or less compensate the increased strength from upgrading longbows to rifles. Thus it may be a good tactic to land some troops (cannons+formation grenadiers) in the forrest W of Bibracte and use 1-2 extra turns to bomb away the cultural defense.

"Forgot about the cavalry bonus against siege weapons." I don't think that I was even aware of it. Good show, lief. Does it hold when the cavalry is defending as well as attacking?

Don't know as my computer system is toast atm. Can't check anything out. And I can't remember if it is when Cavalry attacks or a general 50% bonus versus Cannons. Frederiksburg should be able to check it in the Civlopedia before he hits the beach.

Nice calcs Frederiksberg, good luck... :thumbsup:

Frederiksberg's statistical analysis is clearly better informed and superior to mine, but I'm not convinced that it argues against an amphibious attack. The following considerations contribute to my uncertainty:

There is at present only one rifleman in town, so our disadvantage with that battle is limited. (May not be true in two turns, of course, and the clearest implication of your analysis is the difficulty that would impose on an amphibious attack and the viability of bombarding as an alternative.)

Most of the longbows have only one promotion.

The effect of the frigate barrage is still uncertain to me, and I'd most certainly like to open fire from the sea and see what happens before abandoning the amphibious surprise attack concept.

You have not factored in the effect of collateral damage, and when you have such large modifiers (e.g. 130%), the damage will be significant (multiplied by 130%).

Moreover, during the time that you bombard the city to 0% (and I'm not sure how long that will take, as Warlords is clearly different from vanilla and I've only played two games), Brennus may bring considerable additional forces into play.

Basically, if the situation doesn't change in two turns, then I think we're more likely to take the capital in one or two turns than with extended cannon bombardment -- especially if the cannon collateral damage is extensive. However, it's a close call. The other approach is reasonable, and you should go with it if that's your best judgment.

BTW, there are two non-amphibious grenadiers, not one. I can imagine a scenario where you attack from the sea and find that you'd likely lose those two units if you attack amphibiously with them. In that case you might chose to land them either on the forest with the remaining cannon (if you've chosen not to use it earlier) or (if you have) on the hill near the horse pasture.

Actually, I think I should have said that the collateral damage is multiplied by 230%.

I think I will start with the frigates bombarding under all circumstances and after that see where we are. We have 5 frigates available in two turns and they will probably reduce the defenses to 30%-40%. I used 40% in my calculations where the battles looked even so if we can get it further down we should have an edge. If this looks promising I might burn a cannon and see what odds we are offered after that. According to the article the collateral damage promotions (like barrage) are the only ones considered when calculating collateral damage - no defensive modifiers either! Should be interesting to see what will happen. Much is in the hands of the cruel RNG anyway :D .

Sounds like the right approach. Good luck.

Much is in the hands of the cruel RNG anyway :D .
:eek: No, not that!! :spear:

Best of luck... :please:

RNG wasn't bad ;)

Our military objectives were all met :coffee: and Bibracte is now in our hands. The most bloody part was actually the counterattacking phase that cost us many grenadiers. The galleon chain is in place and the Great General is ready for use.

Turn log:

1529 AD: More troop movements. Brennus has a stack with two cavalry and two knigths 2 tiles W of Bibracte. SciMeth has now been discovered by Mehmet as well and the value of it is decreasing (it's now known by 3 other civs) so I decide to trade it with Washington in return for MilTrad. Trade it to Izzy also for Replacable Parts and 40g.

1532 AD: Last intelligence from our explorer:

Isca: Rifle, xbow, cat.
Dunovaria: 2 rifles, 1 cavalry, 1 pike, 1 longbow.
Stack 2W of Bibracte: 1 cavalry, 2 knigths, 1 elephant, 1 mace
Bibracte: 1 rifle, 5 longbows, 2 cavalry, 1 pike, 1 cat, 1 trebuchet.

Pop rush galleon in Tartar and upgrade our horse archers and knigth to cavalry.

Call up Brennus. It's time to go to war....

Advance frigates and start bombarding. They are not very effective in reducing the cultural defense - its only going down by 5% times the original 60% that is 3% per frigate :( . After all 6 frigates have bombarded defenses are at 42%. The rifle has a modified strength of 13.59 vs 13.2 of our CR III grenadier. Fits exactly with the calculation I made if you change the cultural defense to 42% (14/1.03=13.59). I promote our cannon to barrage and burns it against the rifle. It has some effect. Rifle is now at 12.5 and 4 out of 5 longbows are down to 5.1. Same is the case with the pike and the 2 cavalry are both down to 13.6. Our CR III grenadier now has 67.6% chance of winning against the rifle so I decide to continue the attack. He wins the battle and the best defender is now gone :dance: . Next CR III grenadier steps up. Winning chances are 66.4% against undamaged CD I longbow. A new victory and a Great General is born. CR II, cover Grenadier against wounded guerilla, CD I longbow. 68.6% winning chance. Another victory. So far the RNG has not been the evil god it can be... Next CR II, cover grenadier charges against wounded CD I longbow. He has good odds of 83.4%. And it's another win!! Brennus must be sweating now. If we nail the remaining two longbows he's in real trouble. Unfortunately we only have CR II grenadiers from now on for a 67.4% winning chance against CD I longbow at 5.1 strength. Cannon still have very litlle chance of winning (3.6%) so I decide to wait and see if we can dispose of the cavalry first. Grenadier looses but the longbow is now down to 1.5. Next CR II grenadier steps up with the same odds. A win! The longbows are gone which is in itself an objective of the attack. We now have 8 attackers against 6 defenders, but 3 of the attackers doesn't have amphibious. Still they should be good enough to mop up. Our CR II grenadier now has a comfortable advantage of 73.4% against the cavalry because the cavalry gets no defensive bonus while we retain the city attack bonus. The RNG is unkind but the cavalry is down to 4.2 in strength. Next CR II grenadier attacks with similar odds....and wins! It's now 6 attackers against 5 defenders. Our next 3 attackers should have no problems with the riff-raff left in Bibracte, but what about the non-amphibious units.... A CR II grenadier charges with lots of self confidence (96% to be precise). And wins as expected. Another CR II grenadier goes up against the wounded longbow. The bookies are not taking any bets on this one (>99.9%). The same goes for the CR II grenadier vs catapult match. Who set this up? Don King? :D Now it get's more exicting. Two defenders left - a trebuchet at strength 4 and a wounded cavalry unit at strength 4.2 and we have 3 non- amphibious units left. A cannon and two formation grenadiers. Our formation grenadier attacks with 99.6% advantage....and wins without any damage - could be crucial in order to stop the counterattacks. City is not down yet but with 2 attackers against one lonely trebuchet it's looking really good. The cannon does the final deed in order to keep the other formation grenadier unharmed so that he can defend against counterattacking cavalry. Bibracte is ours. Move galleons into city and unload. We now have 11 units inside Bibracte including two full strength formation grenadiers. That should be more than good enough to hold the city.

Trade spices for silver with Washington. I think we lost a silver deal when we declared on Brennus. Chemistry is now known to Brennus! and 2 other civs. Probably last chance to trade. I trade Chemistry for Education with Washington. He wants and additional 540g and I give him this since the alternative probably is that we won't get anything for it. This means that we now have the option of building a Military Academy with our GG for 50% military production bonus. I postpone this for discussion.

1535 AD: Brennus counterattacks with one cavalry and wins against our formation grenadier. The counterattacking cavalry is killed. A grenadier attacks and kills a knigth on the shore while passing by. Kill an indian caravel. Hannibal wants Steel but I don't like to trade it before we are sure we have the upper hand against Brennus.

1538 AD: Some more fighting near Bibracte. We loose one grenadier and kill one cavalry and one knight. Start setting up a galleon chain to Nidaros. Now Izzy and Mehmet also think we are becoming too advanced. We really need to turn science back on soon.

1541 AD: Keep loosing grenadiers to Brennus cavalry despite having the formation pike in place to defend. Maybe it needs some fortification before it will be selected as top defender. No big deal though - the cavalry and the knight is killed off subsequently and a rifle passing by is also disposed of. We bring in our own cavalry to Bibracte using part of the galleon chain. Kill indian caravel. Change some of the mines near New Sarai to windmills to increase food a bit. The galleon chain is passing by Gergovia and Isca so I use the frigates guarding the chain to do a little bombarding of those cities.

1544 AD: Some more fighting near Bibracte. Rifle kill grenadier and is killed afterwards. WW is rising due to the many battles. Horse pasture is pillaged. Galleon chain is more or less in place. Do some more bombarding of Celtic cities. I think Brennus has used up most of his offensive units so it might be time for us to think about capturing more cities.

I decide to stop here. 12 turns total is more than enough for me - particularly now when we are at war. We also need to discuss what to research next, what to use our GG for (Military Academy or Warlord) and how to continue the war.

The save:

1544 AD (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/Xteam_SG004_AD1544_01.CivWarlordsSave)

Pics:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=151781&stc=1&d=1177097663
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=151782&stc=1&d=1177097663

Auto turn log with details of the battles:

Turn 306, 1496 AD: You have discovered Philosophy!

Turn 307, 1502 AD: Xteam's Frigate (8.00) vs Gandhi's Caravel (3.60)
Turn 307, 1502 AD: Combat Odds: 99.5%
Turn 307, 1502 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 307, 1502 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 307, 1502 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 307, 1502 AD: Xteam's Frigate is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 307, 1502 AD: Xteam's Frigate is hit for 13 (74/100HP)
Turn 307, 1502 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 307, 1502 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 307, 1502 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 307, 1502 AD: Xteam's Frigate has defeated Gandhi's Caravel!
Turn 307, 1502 AD: Xteam's Frigate (8.80) vs Gandhi's Caravel (3.60)
Turn 307, 1502 AD: Combat Odds: 99.7%
Turn 307, 1502 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 307, 1502 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 307, 1502 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 307, 1502 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (70/100HP)
Turn 307, 1502 AD: Xteam's Frigate is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 307, 1502 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (40/100HP)
Turn 307, 1502 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (10/100HP)
Turn 307, 1502 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (0/100HP)
Turn 307, 1502 AD: Xteam's Frigate has defeated Gandhi's Caravel!
Turn 307, 1502 AD: You have trained a Galleon in Old Sarai. Work has now begun on a Observatory.
Turn 307, 1502 AD: You have trained a Galleon in Tartar. Work has now begun on a Theatre.

Turn 308, 1508 AD: Xteam's Frigate (8.00) vs Gandhi's Caravel (3.60)
Turn 308, 1508 AD: Combat Odds: 99.5%
Turn 308, 1508 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 308, 1508 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 308, 1508 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 308, 1508 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 308, 1508 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 308, 1508 AD: Xteam's Frigate is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 308, 1508 AD: Xteam's Frigate is hit for 13 (74/100HP)
Turn 308, 1508 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 308, 1508 AD: Xteam's Frigate has defeated Gandhi's Caravel!
Turn 308, 1508 AD: Confucianism has spread in Samarqand.

Turn 309, 1514 AD: The borders of Tartar have expanded!
Turn 309, 1514 AD: Washington's Golden Age has ended...
Turn 309, 1514 AD: Isabella has made peace with Mehmed II!

Turn 310, 1520 AD: Xteam's Frigate (8.80) vs Gandhi's Caravel (3.60)
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Combat Odds: 99.7%
Turn 310, 1520 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 310, 1520 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 310, 1520 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (70/100HP)
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (40/100HP)
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Xteam's Frigate is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (10/100HP)
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (0/100HP)
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Xteam's Frigate has defeated Gandhi's Caravel!
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Xteam's Frigate (8.00) vs Gandhi's Caravel (3.60)
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Combat Odds: 99.5%
Turn 310, 1520 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 310, 1520 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Xteam's Frigate has defeated Gandhi's Caravel!
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Xteam's Frigate (6.72) vs Gandhi's Caravel (3.60)
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Combat Odds: 94.8%
Turn 310, 1520 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 310, 1520 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Xteam's Frigate is hit for 14 (70/100HP)
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Xteam's Frigate is hit for 14 (56/100HP)
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Xteam's Frigate is hit for 14 (42/100HP)
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Xteam's Frigate has defeated Gandhi's Caravel!
Turn 310, 1520 AD: You have discovered Scientific Method!
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Washington adopts Free Market!

Turn 311, 1523 AD: Xteam's Frigate (8.00) vs Gandhi's Caravel (3.60)
Turn 311, 1523 AD: Combat Odds: 99.5%
Turn 311, 1523 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 311, 1523 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 311, 1523 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 311, 1523 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 311, 1523 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 311, 1523 AD: Xteam's Frigate is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 311, 1523 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 311, 1523 AD: Xteam's Frigate has defeated Gandhi's Caravel!
Turn 311, 1523 AD: Samarqand celebrates "We Love the Prime Minister Day"!!!

Turn 312, 1526 AD: Xteam's Frigate (8.18) vs Gandhi's Caravel (3.60)
Turn 312, 1526 AD: Combat Odds: 99.5%
Turn 312, 1526 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 312, 1526 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 312, 1526 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 312, 1526 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (70/100HP)
Turn 312, 1526 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (40/100HP)
Turn 312, 1526 AD: Xteam's Frigate is hit for 13 (80/100HP)
Turn 312, 1526 AD: Xteam's Frigate is hit for 13 (67/100HP)
Turn 312, 1526 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (10/100HP)
Turn 312, 1526 AD: Xteam's Frigate is hit for 13 (54/100HP)
Turn 312, 1526 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (0/100HP)
Turn 312, 1526 AD: Xteam's Frigate has defeated Gandhi's Caravel!
Turn 312, 1526 AD: Samarqand celebrates "We Love the Prime Minister Day"!!!
Turn 312, 1526 AD: The borders of Ning-hsia have expanded!
Turn 312, 1526 AD: Ananda (Great Prophet) has been born in Carthage (Hannibal)!

Turn 313, 1529 AD: You have discovered Military Tradition!
Turn 313, 1529 AD: You have discovered Replaceable Parts!
Turn 313, 1529 AD: The borders of Birka have expanded!

Turn 314, 1532 AD: Deal Canceled: Spices to Brennus for Incense
Turn 314, 1532 AD: You have declared war on Brennus!
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Your Frigate has reduced the defenses of Bibracte to 80%!
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Cannon (12.00) vs Brennus's Rifleman (39.48)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Combat Odds: 0.0%
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Plot Defense: +67%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (City Defense: +20%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Hills: +20%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Amphibious Attack: +50%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Cannon is hit for 34 (66/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Cannon is hit for 34 (32/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Rifleman is hit for 11 (89/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Cannon is hit for 34 (0/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Rifleman has defeated Xteam's Cannon!
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier (13.20) vs Brennus's Rifleman (12.09)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Combat Odds: 67.6%
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Plot Defense: +67%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (City Defense: +20%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Hills: +20%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (City Attack: -75%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Class Attack: -50%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Combat: -10%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Rifleman is hit for 20 (69/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Rifleman is hit for 20 (49/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Rifleman is hit for 20 (29/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Rifleman is hit for 20 (9/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Rifleman is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier has defeated Brennus's Rifleman!
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier (13.20) vs Brennus's Longbowman (11.22)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Combat Odds: 66.4%
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Plot Defense: +67%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (City Attack: -75%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Longbowman is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Longbowman is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Longbowman is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Longbowman is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Longbowman is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier has defeated Brennus's Longbowman!
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Heinz Guderian (Great General) has been born in Nidaros (Xteam)!
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier (13.20) vs Brennus's Longbowman (10.81)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Combat Odds: 68.6%
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Plot Defense: +67%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Hills: +45%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Longbowman is hit for 21 (64/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Longbowman is hit for 21 (43/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Longbowman is hit for 21 (22/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Longbowman is hit for 21 (1/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Longbowman is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier has defeated Brennus's Longbowman!
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier (13.20) vs Brennus's Longbowman (9.79)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Combat Odds: 83.4%
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Plot Defense: +67%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Longbowman is hit for 22 (63/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Longbowman is hit for 22 (41/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Longbowman is hit for 22 (19/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Longbowman is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier has defeated Brennus's Longbowman!
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier (13.20) vs Brennus's Longbowman (11.06)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Combat Odds: 67.4%
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Plot Defense: +67%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 19 (5/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Longbowman is hit for 20 (65/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Longbowman is hit for 20 (45/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Longbowman is hit for 20 (25/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 19 (0/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Longbowman has defeated Xteam's Grenadier!
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier (13.20) vs Brennus's Longbowman (11.06)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Combat Odds: 67.4%
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Plot Defense: +67%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Longbowman is hit for 20 (65/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Longbowman is hit for 20 (45/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Longbowman is hit for 20 (25/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Longbowman is hit for 20 (5/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Longbowman is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier has defeated Brennus's Longbowman!
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier (13.20) vs Brennus's Cavalry (10.92)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Combat Odds: 73.4%
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Cavalry is hit for 21 (70/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Cavalry is hit for 21 (49/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Cavalry is hit for 21 (28/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Cavalry has defeated Xteam's Grenadier!
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier (13.20) vs Brennus's Cavalry (10.92)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Combat Odds: 73.4%
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Cavalry is hit for 21 (70/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Cavalry is hit for 21 (49/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Cavalry is hit for 21 (28/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Cavalry is hit for 21 (7/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Cavalry is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier has defeated Brennus's Cavalry!
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier (13.20) vs Brennus's Pikeman (8.00)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Combat Odds: 96.0%
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Plot Defense: +67%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Pikeman is hit for 24 (61/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Pikeman is hit for 24 (37/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Pikeman is hit for 24 (13/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Pikeman is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier has defeated Brennus's Pikeman!
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier (13.20) vs Brennus's Longbowman (3.25)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Plot Defense: +67%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Longbowman is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier has defeated Brennus's Longbowman!
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier (13.20) vs Brennus's Catapult (3.44)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 10 (90/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Catapult is hit for 36 (64/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Catapult is hit for 36 (28/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Catapult is hit for 36 (0/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier has defeated Brennus's Catapult!
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier (14.40) vs Brennus's Cavalry (6.09)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Combat Odds: 99.6%
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Amphibious Attack: +50%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Cavalry is hit for 20 (8/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Cavalry is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier has defeated Brennus's Cavalry!
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Cannon (12.00) vs Brennus's Trebuchet (5.20)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Combat Odds: 99.6%
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Amphibious Attack: +50%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Trebuchet is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Cannon is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Trebuchet is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Cannon is hit for 13 (74/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Trebuchet is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Cannon is hit for 13 (61/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Cannon is hit for 13 (48/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Trebuchet is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Cannon has defeated Brennus's Trebuchet!
Turn 314, 1532 AD: You have captured Bibracte!!!
Turn 314, 1532 AD: You have discovered Education!
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Cavalry (16.50) vs Xteam's Grenadier (20.40)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Combat Odds: 25.7%
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: (Combat: +25%)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Cavalry is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Cavalry is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 17 (15/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Cavalry is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Cavalry is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 17 (0/100HP)
Turn 314, 1532 AD: Brennus's Cavalry has defeated Xteam's Grenadier!

Auto log continued:

Turn 315, 1535 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Bibracte!
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Xteam's Grenadier (14.40) vs Brennus's Cavalry (1.56)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 315, 1535 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Brennus's Cavalry is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Xteam's Grenadier has defeated Brennus's Cavalry!
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Your Frigate has reduced the defenses of Gergovia to 90%!
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Your Frigate has reduced the defenses of Gergovia to 85%!
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Xteam's Grenadier (13.20) vs Brennus's Knight (12.00)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Combat Odds: 68.1%
Turn 315, 1535 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Brennus's Knight is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Brennus's Knight is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Brennus's Knight is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Brennus's Knight is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Brennus's Knight is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Xteam's Grenadier has defeated Brennus's Knight!
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Your Frigate has reduced the defenses of Isca to 46%!
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Xteam's Frigate (8.80) vs Gandhi's Caravel (3.30)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Combat Odds: 99.9%
Turn 315, 1535 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 31 (69/100HP)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 31 (38/100HP)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 31 (7/100HP)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Xteam's Frigate is hit for 12 (88/100HP)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 31 (0/100HP)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Xteam's Frigate has defeated Gandhi's Caravel!
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ? for Nidaros.
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Brennus's Cavalry (16.50) vs Xteam's Grenadier (16.20)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Combat Odds: 63.5%
Turn 315, 1535 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Brennus's Cavalry is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Brennus's Cavalry is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Brennus's Cavalry is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Brennus's Cavalry is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Brennus's Cavalry is hit for 19 (5/100HP)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Brennus's Cavalry is hit for 19 (0/100HP)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Xteam's Grenadier has defeated Brennus's Cavalry!
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Brennus's Cavalry (16.50) vs Xteam's Grenadier (14.58)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Combat Odds: 69.7%
Turn 315, 1535 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Brennus's Cavalry is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 20 (70/100HP)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Brennus's Cavalry is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Brennus's Cavalry is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 20 (50/100HP)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 20 (30/100HP)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Brennus's Cavalry is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 20 (10/100HP)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Brennus's Cavalry has defeated Xteam's Grenadier!
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Brennus's Knight (12.00) vs Xteam's Grenadier (13.28)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Combat Odds: 43.9%
Turn 315, 1535 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Brennus's Knight is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Brennus's Knight is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Brennus's Knight is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 315, 1535 AD: Brennus's Knight has defeated Xteam's Grenadier!

Turn 316, 1538 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Hittite!
Turn 316, 1538 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Tartar!
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Xteam's Grenadier (9.63) vs Brennus's Knight (4.08)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Combat Odds: 99.0%
Turn 316, 1538 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Brennus's Knight is hit for 23 (11/100HP)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Brennus's Knight is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Xteam's Grenadier has defeated Brennus's Knight!
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Your Grenadier has destroyed a Knight!
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Xteam's Berserker (9.60) vs Brennus's Cavalry (3.96)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Combat Odds: 99.0%
Turn 316, 1538 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Brennus's Cavalry is hit for 19 (5/100HP)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Brennus's Cavalry is hit for 19 (0/100HP)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Xteam's Berserker has defeated Brennus's Cavalry!
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Your Berserker has destroyed a Cavalry!
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Your Frigate has reduced the defenses of Vienne to 90%!
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Your Frigate has reduced the defenses of Gergovia to 80%!
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Brennus's Cavalry (18.00) vs Xteam's Grenadier (16.80)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Combat Odds: 66.6%
Turn 316, 1538 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: (Fortify: +5%)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Brennus's Cavalry is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Brennus's Cavalry is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Brennus's Cavalry has defeated Xteam's Grenadier!
Turn 316, 1538 AD: While defending, your Grenadier was destroyed by a Celtic Cavalry!
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Brennus's Cavalry (18.00) vs Xteam's Grenadier (16.20)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Combat Odds: 68.7%
Turn 316, 1538 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Brennus's Cavalry is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Brennus's Cavalry is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Brennus's Cavalry is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Brennus's Cavalry has defeated Xteam's Grenadier!
Turn 316, 1538 AD: While defending, your Grenadier was destroyed by a Celtic Cavalry!
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Brennus's Knight (12.00) vs Xteam's Berserker (9.60)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Combat Odds: 75.1%
Turn 316, 1538 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Brennus's Knight is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Xteam's Berserker is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Brennus's Knight is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Xteam's Berserker is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Xteam's Berserker is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Xteam's Berserker is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Brennus's Knight is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Brennus's Knight is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Brennus's Knight is hit for 17 (15/100HP)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Xteam's Berserker is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Brennus's Knight has defeated Xteam's Berserker!
Turn 316, 1538 AD: Francisco Pizarro (Great General) has been born in Camulodunum (Brennus)!
Turn 316, 1538 AD: While defending, your Berserker was destroyed by a Celtic Knight!

Turn 317, 1541 AD: The enemy has been spotted near New Sarai!
Turn 317, 1541 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Copper Mountain!
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Xteam's Pikeman (7.20) vs Brennus's Cavalry (4.53)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Combat Odds: 95.8%
Turn 317, 1541 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: (Combat: -125%)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Brennus's Cavalry is hit for 22 (40/100HP)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Brennus's Cavalry is hit for 22 (18/100HP)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Xteam's Pikeman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Brennus's Cavalry is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Xteam's Pikeman has defeated Brennus's Cavalry!
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Your Pikeman has destroyed a Cavalry!
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Xteam's Grenadier (9.63) vs Brennus's Cavalry (8.28)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Combat Odds: 72.5%
Turn 317, 1541 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 21 (52/100HP)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 21 (31/100HP)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Brennus's Cavalry is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Brennus's Cavalry is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Brennus's Cavalry is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Xteam's Grenadier has defeated Brennus's Cavalry!
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Your Grenadier has destroyed a Cavalry!
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Xteam's Grenadier (13.20) vs Brennus's Rifleman (8.00)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Combat Odds: 96.0%
Turn 317, 1541 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: (Class Attack: -50%)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Brennus's Rifleman is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Brennus's Rifleman is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Brennus's Rifleman is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Brennus's Rifleman is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Xteam's Grenadier has defeated Brennus's Rifleman!
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Your Grenadier has destroyed a Rifleman!
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Xteam's Grenadier (13.20) vs Brennus's Knight (1.80)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 317, 1541 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Brennus's Knight is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Xteam's Grenadier has defeated Brennus's Knight!
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Your Grenadier has destroyed a Knight!
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Your Frigate has reduced the defenses of Isca to 42%!
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Xteam's Frigate (8.80) vs Gandhi's Caravel (3.60)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Combat Odds: 99.7%
Turn 317, 1541 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (70/100HP)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Xteam's Frigate is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (40/100HP)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (10/100HP)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (0/100HP)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Xteam's Frigate has defeated Gandhi's Caravel!
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Your Frigate has destroyed a Caravel!
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 44 ? for Tartar.
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Your Frigate has reduced the defenses of Isca to 38%!
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Your Frigate has reduced the defenses of Gergovia to 75%!
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Your Frigate has reduced the defenses of Gergovia to 70%!
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Your Frigate has reduced the defenses of Vienne to 85%!
Turn 317, 1541 AD: You have trained a Work Boat in Beshbalik. Work has now begun on a Harbor.
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Andrei Sakharov (Great Scientist) has been born in Carthage (Hannibal)!
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Brennus's Rifleman (14.00) vs Xteam's Grenadier (13.20)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Combat Odds: 65.9%
Turn 317, 1541 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Brennus's Rifleman is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 317, 1541 AD: Brennus's Rifleman has defeated Xteam's Grenadier!
Turn 317, 1541 AD: While defending, your Grenadier was destroyed by a Celtic Rifleman!

Turn 318, 1544 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Hittite!
Turn 318, 1544 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Copper Mountain!
Turn 318, 1544 AD: You have plundered 5? from the Pasture!
Turn 318, 1544 AD: Xteam's Grenadier (9.24) vs Brennus's Rifleman (6.48)
Turn 318, 1544 AD: Combat Odds: 80.7%
Turn 318, 1544 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 318, 1544 AD: (Class Attack: -50%)
Turn 318, 1544 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 318, 1544 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 16 (54/100HP)
Turn 318, 1544 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 16 (38/100HP)
Turn 318, 1544 AD: Brennus's Rifleman is hit for 24 (57/100HP)
Turn 318, 1544 AD: Brennus's Rifleman is hit for 24 (33/100HP)
Turn 318, 1544 AD: Brennus's Rifleman is hit for 24 (9/100HP)
Turn 318, 1544 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 16 (22/100HP)
Turn 318, 1544 AD: Brennus's Rifleman is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 318, 1544 AD: Xteam's Grenadier has defeated Brennus's Rifleman!
Turn 318, 1544 AD: Your Grenadier has destroyed a Rifleman!
Turn 318, 1544 AD: Your Frigate has reduced the defenses of Isca to 35%!
Turn 318, 1544 AD: Your Frigate has reduced the defenses of Isca to 31%!
Turn 318, 1544 AD: Your Frigate has reduced the defenses of Vienne to 80%!
Turn 318, 1544 AD: Your Frigate has reduced the defenses of Gergovia to 65%!
Turn 318, 1544 AD: Your Frigate has reduced the defenses of Gergovia to 60%!
Turn 318, 1544 AD: Your Frigate has reduced the defenses of Gergovia to 55%!

:high5: Nice work Frederiksberg!! :thumbsup:

That is a good way to start a war. :cheers:

Roster:
Cactus Pete - UP
Gator - On Deck
RRAU
Bede
Sanabas
Leif
Frederiksberg - just played

Just got a new Power Supply, so I hope to fixed up tonight or tomorrow. :)

Most satisfactory report from the battlefield.

I will have no time to check the save until mid-morning Saturday, but I will certainly be available for discussion then and would be able to start my turn(but certainly not finish) a little later Saturday. I'm thinking I might try to post a screen shot or two Sat. night (just learned how, I think) and would be able to continue play on Monday based on whatever feedback I recieve on Sunday. Next week is perhaps my easiest of he year, and I'm pleased to have a complex battlefield to deal with when I have time to give it my best effort.

We also need to discuss what to research next, what to use our GG for (Military Academy or Warlord) and how to continue the war.
Let's see? :hmm:

Research. I think we should be headed for Combustion or Artillery. Combustion is what I'd put first on my list both to control the seas and get Oil under control with wells. Destroyers and Transports would be nice!!

The Great General, I think we should build a Berserker in New Sarai, 3 turns, promote him to CR2 and then make our Great General a Warlord with that unit, then get the free upgrade to Grenadier.

I also think we should try to build more Cannons. We have them uniquely and we should put them to good use.

On the war, Durnovaria is the religious city of Buddhism and thus probably flush with Gold per Turn. His major resources of Oil, Iron, Silk and Marble are in the area of Tolosa, Verlamion, and Camulodunum. In addition, Salamnca is in this area as well. Taking this splits his Capital from the other cities, which we can take later, and robs him native resources. It also puts us on the border of Izzie's Capital... :mischief:

Concur with the research path and the tactical and troop training plan.

Disagree with this plan : "The Great General, I think we should build a Berserker in New Sarai, 3 turns, promote him to CR2 and then make our Great General a Warlord with that unit, then get the free upgrade to Grenadier. "

Put him in the Heroic Epic City as a Military Academy, or in any other heavy hammer town if the HE town already has an Academy.

Nicely done on the fields of Celtia.

Regarding tech I can think of 3 possible paths:

1) Steam Power - Railroad - Combustion: To get destroyers and transports and maintain naval superiority

2) Liberalism - Communism: Enables State Property which is nice in a wide spread empire. Also enable Scotland Yard for building spies.

3) Physics - Electricity - Radio - Mass Media: For building the UN and passing resolutions like free trade, single currency, nuclear non-proliferation etc.

Like Leif I'm leaning towards the first option as the most important one right now.

Regarding the Great General I'm more in line with Bede. The Military Academy boosts military production by 50%. Apart from the obvious (and good) choice of putting it in the Heroic Epic city I was thinking of putting it in a coastal city to get faster production of destroyers and battleships. Im sure we will need some of those. Remember that the production boost is relative to the base hammers i.e. it's not multiplied with the HE bonus but added. This makes Old Sarai an attractive place for the Academy.

In the continuation of the war I think we have to address the immediate problems of massive starvation in Bibracte when it comes out of revolt. We can (and should) use the whip to get some hammers out of the population but it would be nice to keep maybe half of the pop. This means that capturing the neighbouring cities to remove cultural pressure has high priority. Isca should be easy to capture with an amphibious assault launched from Bibracte and that would probably free up the 2nd fish. Capturing Dunovaria should make the pig tile available and capturing Vienne frees the deer tile. Dunovaria is not the holy city of Budhism (Madrid is) but it's important anyway and probably easier to capture than Vienne.

Regarding the Great General I'm more in line with Bede. The Military Academy boosts military production by 50%. Apart from the obvious (and good) choice of putting it in the Heroic Epic city I was thinking of putting it in a coastal city to get faster production of destroyers and battleships. Im sure we will need some of those. Remember that the production boost is relative to the base hammers i.e. it's not multiplied with the HE bonus but added. This makes Old Sarai an attractive place for the Academy.
Interesting analysis, but why not Nidaros? It is also coastal and is producing roughly the same base hammers per turn, plus the bonuses of buildings and Bureaucracy.

We can achieve faster naval builds in Old Sarai from a Drydock? It requires 5 turns to build atm.

In the continuation of the war I think we have to address the immediate problems of massive starvation in Bibracte when it comes out of revolt. We can (and should) use the whip to get some hammers out of the population but it would be nice to keep maybe half of the pop. This means that capturing the neighbouring cities to remove cultural pressure has high priority. Isca should be easy to capture with an amphibious assault launched from Bibracte and that would probably free up the 2nd fish. Capturing Dunovaria should make the pig tile available and capturing Vienne frees the deer tile.
We have 11 turns before Bibracte faces the problem. I agree with your move for Isca but think we should take out his resources next. Vienne is 5-tiles away and althugh it will affect the ability of Bibracte to expand, I'm not sure that matters much if we pop-rush it down to size 10 or 12. As it grows, we can address Vienne as needed.

The bigger question will be whether to accept him as a Vassal or simply take him out?

Dunovaria is not the holy city of Budhism (Madrid is) but it's important anyway and probably easier to capture than Vienne.
You're right. So what is the star in the city heading at Durnovaria for, Versailles? I mistook that star for the religion founding there. :hmm:

Stars are usually the Forbidden palace cities.

I agree with an academy for the military leader.

Interesting analysis, but why not Nidaros? It is also coastal and is producing roughly the same base hammers per turn, plus the bonuses of buildings and Bureaucracy.

Old Sarai has higher production when WW disappears and it can work all workshop tiles. Bureaucracy doesn't change base hammers and the Military Academy bonus should be depending on base hammers alone. Same goes for building s like forge, drydock etc.

We have 11 turns before Bibracte faces the problem. I agree with your move for Isca but think we should take out his resources next. Vienne is 5-tiles away and althugh it will affect the ability of Bibracte to expand, I'm not sure that matters much if we pop-rush it down to size 10 or 12. As it grows, we can address Vienne as needed.

The bigger question will be whether to accept him as a Vassal or simply take him out?


It makes good sense to take away Brennus's iron resource and prevent him from making more frigates and cannons. We could solve this by pillaging the iron and still attack Dunovaria before we go for Tolosa. I agree that Vienne can wait - it's on a hill and well guarded.

I don't see Brennus being much use to us as a vassal. In principle it might be an advantage to have a weak vassal that Gandhi would be able to beat. The advantage being that Gandhi could get rid of the war weariness he would accumulate from attacking our vassal by bringing him down to a level where the vassal is set free and then either finish the vassal or make peace. I'm just afraid that this tactic is a bit speculative and I don't trust the AI capability to fight a war. Even if we brought down the defense of all Brenus's remaining cities to one defender before vassalizing him it could take a long time before Gandhi got round to sending any substantial forces his way.

It looks to me like Versailles is in the SE corner of Vienne, which makes it a much more immediate target.

I will certainly build a military academy if that's the consensus; but, with all the coastal cities to be taken, I find promoting three beserkers awfully attractive . . . particularly given the possibility that we won't go to war again.

I'm going to take some time to post a tentative plan of action for your review. In the meantime, would like some comment on the two observations above.

I also think an academy would be best placed in a coastal city. BTW, we may well get another GG before we're through with Brennus, and he could build the academy then.

It looks to me like Versailles is in the SE corner of Vienne, which makes it a much more immediate target.

I don't see it. Spiral Minaret is in Camulodunum and I see a strange building with a green roof in Tolosa. That's all I can see :scan: .

I will certainly build a military academy if that's the consensus; but, with all the coastal cities to be taken, I find promoting three beserkers awfully attractive . . . particularly given the possibility that we won't go to war again.

Why not 4 berserkers then. They can be built in 7 turns in New Sarai if we do some MM and will come out with 5 XP each. After promotion they would all have 10 XP. Academy gives 10 hammers per turn if we place it in Old Sarai. Thats 1/15 of the cost of a grenadier meaning that every 15 turns we get one extra grenadier. This should be compared with the benefit of having 4 CR III Grenadiers rather than 4 CR II Grenadiers (Or 3 CR I grenadiers vs 2 CR III grenadiers and one CR II). Hmm....

CR II Grenadier vs CD I rifle in city with no cultural defense:

Grenadier:
Modified Strength= 12 + 10% (Combat I) =13.2
Bonus vs Rifle in city: 45% (CR II) + 50% (Unit ability) = 95%

Rifle:
Base Strengt=14
Bonus= 20% (CD I) + 25% (Fortify) = 45%
Modified strength= 14/1.5=9.3

CR III Grenadier vs CD I rifle in city with no cultural defense:

Grenadier:
Modified Strength= 12 + 10% (Combat I) =13.2
Bonus vs Rifle in city: 75% (CR II) + 50% (Unit ability) = 125%

Rifle:
Base Strengt=14
Bonus= 20% (CD I) + 25% (Fortify) = 45%
Modified strength= 14/1.8=7.8

CR II Grenadiers are strong enough to be clear favourites against CD I rifles assuming that the cultural defenses are bombed down. I guess this favours building the Academy...

I plan to begin play in a couple of hours, but will proceed slowly and refer back here often. Please give me some feedack on the following:

Tentative to-do list (not prioritized):

Sink Celt caravel.
Begin the Taj Mahal . . . where?
Build the Forbidden Palace, possibly in Bibractre using sad citizens
Get some beserkers trained in anticipation of getting Rifling
Move some workers to the other continent to chop forest E of Bibracte and then to use as scout/sacrifices when I go after non-coastal cities.
Put science at 80% and switch to Steam Power

“In the continuation of the war I think we have to address the immediate problems of massive starvation in Bibracte when it comes out of revolt. . . . This means that capturing the neighbouring cities to remove cultural pressure has high priority. Isca should be easy to capture with an amphibious assault launched from Bibracte and that would probably free up the 2nd fish. Capturing Dunovaria should make the pig tile available and capturing Vienne frees the deer tile.” Yes, and then take stock.

“It makes good sense to take away Brennus's iron resource and prevent him from making more frigates and cannons. We could solve this by pillaging the iron and still attack Dunovaria before we go for Tolosa.” That’s the tentative plan.

Is Durocortorum a target because it’s a Hindu city, or have we decided to abandon any thought of proselytizing for Gandhi in favor of going through the UN?

“Why not 4 berserkers then. They can be built in 7 turns in New Sarai if we do some MM and will come out with 5 XP each.” I’m clueless. Why will they have five experience points in NS?

“Academy gives 10 hammers per turn if we place it in Old Sarai. Thats 1/15 of the cost of a grenadier meaning that every 15 turns we get one extra grenadier.” That’s a long time before pay off. Don’t you think we need to get Celtic cities captured ASAP?

Do we want to trade SC. Meth. to Izzy in hopes that she will trade it to Gandhi?

How can we improve relationships with her in case Gandhi trades something back that we can use?

leif, what do you mean by “get Oil under control with wells?”

Mehmed says we are becoming too advanced. Why? Anything we can do about it?

What about Liberalism after Steam Power? It’s quick and would allow Free Religion civic – happiness plus 10% Science – when we revolt to put off war weariness.

@CP,
You wrote:
"Mehmed says we are becoming too advanced. Why? Anything we can do about it?"

Each nation has slightly different threshold for trading techs to a rival (and it may only be the human rival) based on the total number of techs that that rival has purchased from all the nations on the board. IIRC that number is ~10 though some nations' thresholds may be higher or lower. The relationship level also modifies the threshold.

The WFYATBA penalty does decay over time, but I don't know exactly how long.

It was inserted as a mechanism to prevent the multi-fer trade fests so common in Civ 3 where players could cross entire eras in a series of tech trades while committing minimal resources to tech research.

Your plans appear sound, as always.

Why will they have five experience points in NS?

Because we have a military instructor residing there giving 2 extra XP. This means we can build CR II berserkers there.

That’s a long time before pay off. Don’t you think we need to get Celtic cities captured ASAP?

True, but my point is that CR III grenadiers will only have slightly better odds against a CD I rifle (Around 90%) than CR II grenadiers (Around 80%) attacking a city where the culture defenses are bombed away. Thus we don't stand to gain much from using the GG for the proposed promotions either. Further, it's not unlikely that we have to attack Hannibal at some point to slow down his development. Right now he seems to be ahead of Gandhi. Whatever you decide to do with the GG it's not a big issue since the impact is small...

Do we want to trade SC. Meth. to Izzy in hopes that she will trade it to Gandhi?

Mehmed says we are becoming too advanced. Why? Anything we can do about it?

We can't trade tech with Izzy since she's also saying that we are becoming too advanced. We could give SciMeth away though - that would also imporve relations. I'm afraid there is nothing we can do about WFYABTA. As far as I know it's related to a counter for each civ that counts the number of tech deals made. When the counter exceeds a limit they stop trading and say WFYABTA.

What about Liberalism after Steam Power? It’s quick and would allow Free Religion civic – happiness plus 10% Science – when we revolt to put off war weariness.

Then maybe we should go for Liberalism first followed by Communism to get to State Property (No distance maintenance and one extra food from workshops) which is a really good civic for a large empire. We could trade for Liberalism but might want to do fewer trades and only trade for very expensive techs in order to keep away WFYABTA with our remaining trading partners.

Btw. there is a celtic frigate and galleon on it's way east. I didn't attack because we will get better odds once it leaves coastal waters and enter the ocean.

"Btw. there is a celtic frigate and galleon on it's way east. I didn't attack because we will get better odds once it leaves coastal waters and enter the ocean."

Thanks. I hadn't even noticed.

"Because we have a military instructor residing there giving 2 extra XP. This means we can build CR II berserkers there."

Had no knowledge of the MI (though I see it in the city now that I know to look). Who put him there? Was that reported in the thread? At any rate, now I fully appreciate the force of your argument. There will be an Academy in OS, and I will train beserkers in NS.

"We can't trade tech with Izzy since she's also saying that we are becoming too advanced. We could give SciMeth away though - that would also imporve relations."

I meant trade for a bit of gold. Would we improve relations more if we give it away?

"Then maybe we should go for Liberalism first followed by Communism to get to State Property (No distance maintenance and one extra food from workshops) which is a really good civic for a large empire."

I like State Property, but I think we will have both Versailles (look again, fits profile) and a Forbidden Palace soon, so I'm looking at Free Market.

BTW, I'm expecting someone (most likely Gandhi) to hit us with Emmancipation soon, so I will look to acquire Constitution and Democracy one way or the other as the game progresses.

BTW, can someone tell me how to put quotes in gray boxes?

I meant trade for a bit of gold. Would we improve relations more if we give it away?

I just checked the save. It will probably not improve relations at all since we are already at +4 for having good trade relations with Izzy. There is a cap there allthough you can get an extra +1 for sharing technology at some point. Don't know exactly what is required for this to happen.


BTW, can someone tell me how to put quotes in gray boxes?

You select the text you want inside the gray box and then press the "wrap [QUOTE]" button (next to the # button). You can add manually [QUOTE= xxx] to indicate who you are quoting.

Good luck with the turns!

"You select the text you want inside the gray box and then press the "wrap [quote]" button (next to the # button). You can add manually [quote= xxx] to indicate who you are quoting."

Button . . . What button? The number 4 is next to the # sign on my keyboard.

Button . . . What button? The number 4 is next to the # sign on my keyboard.
When you post in the thread, there are some control buttons at the top of the box you type in. Mouse over the buttons and their function will pop up.

I do it the old fashioned way, I simply click on the quote button at the bottom of the person's post I want to reference and then use cut and paste to section off the various pieces of text I want to use. Then I delete the rest.

Once you click on the quote button, control text will become evident. ;)

Once you click on the quote button, control text will become evident. ;)[/QUOTE]

Like this?

Guess not. What did I do wrong?

"[/quote]" marks the end of the quote you have to put "[quote= NN]" in the beginning of the quote as well.

Great Scientist just born in Nidaros . . . would get us just over a third of the way top Physics, with the alternative an academy in Karakorum or saving for a golden age. Any strong opinions?

Guess not. What did I do wrong? Like this?

Ah, yes, success!

Great Scientist just born in Nidaros . . . would get us just over a third of the way top Physics, with the alternative an academy in Karakorum or saving for a golden age. Any strong opinions?

Depends on the number of turns left in this game. Academy in Karakorum will bring in around 25 beakers per turn so it will take approx 100 turns to get the same number of beakers as we would get from lightbulbing now. This probably makes the academy option slightly better - I don't think Gandhi has launched a hundred turns from now (342 turns left to 2050). Golden age is normally inferior unless we can leverage the immediate boost somehow...

Here, I hope, is screen shot of results of initial cannon bambardment of Vienne -- note greater reduction in the strength of riflemen when cannon is positioned on land. [I could not make this work as leif explained]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/539/VIENNE_BOMBARDMENT_RESULTS0000.JPG

I AM IN THE MIDDLE OF MY SIXTH TURN AND THAT IS ALL I HAVE TIME FOR PROBABLY UNTIL MONDAY.

Here is my turn log to this point:

CACTUS PETE
SGOTM4W REPORT FOR TURNS 318-323

318 (1544AD): Made adjustments discussed in our thread, plus upgraded some units on the home continent and moved them east to embark for Celtia next turn. Also, moved cavalry in Bibracte to back up or protect exposed grenadiers.

319: Sink three Indian caravels; begin advance on three target cities

320: Izzy urges us to convert to Buddhism, else “the heavens will rain their displeasure on you.” Well, we’re building lots of boats anyway.
Great Scientist is born in Nidaros
Sank Celtic frigate and galleon without loss, having waited -- as suggested -- for them to get to open water

321: Hannibal completes Taj Mahal

323: Academies established in NS and Karakorum
Begin attack on Vienne with a cannon (screen shot was posted in thread); captured city with loss of one cannon and one grenadier; city contains Palace at Versailles, Temple of Artemis, and Military Academy, but no trading post (so will soon be a small town).
Hannibal has Steel and is likely to trade it

There may be many techs that we can Steel trade for if we negotiate this turn. I don't think Hannibal will wait as Mehmed does. We are three turns away from Steam (could get in two, but very costly), so we would not be giving up the lead in military tech. Here, I hope, is another screen shot that will elicit some advise on best way to dicker.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/539

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/539/TRADING_OPTIONS0000.JPG

Have no idea why it didn't work the first time, and pardon my bad grammar and spelling. I'm a bit rushed at the moment.

This will probably be the last turn set where I will have the benefit of experience in similar game circumstances, plus I have uncommon period of considerable free time Monday and Tuesday, so I would like to play as many turns now as allowed with the intention of only ten in the future. Twenty-plus to get us back on a multiple of ten would be my preference. How does the team feel about that? No offense will be taken if there are objections.

Going to try a little experiment here. I added, on either end of your links, the tags "the link"

Here are your screenshots:
From post number 338.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/539/VIENNE_BOMBARDMENT_RESULTS0000.JPG

The second one, from post number 339:
The link for the second one didn't show an image. It doesn't end in .jpg, so I am unsure what kind of file it is?

And the third, from post number 340:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/539/TRADING_OPTIONS0000.JPG

Have no idea why it didn't work the first time, and pardon my bad grammar and spelling. I'm a bit rushed at the moment.
Sorry, I guess I'm not a very good teacher. :blush:
This will probably be the last turn set where I will have the benefit of experience in similar game circumstances, plus I have uncommon period of considerable free time Monday and Tuesday, so I would like to play as many turns now as allowed with the intention of only ten in the future. Twenty-plus to get us back on a multiple of ten would be my preference. How does the team feel about that? No offense will be taken if there are objections.
No objections here. Good luck.

Oh, yeah . . . if I'm, lucky, here is the save:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/539/Xteam_in_progress.CivWarlordsSave

Well done capturing Vienne with marginal losses! I don't know if it's only my graphics card acting up but it looks as if the Versaille has been dug into the rock. Anyway I see it now :D .

There may be many techs that we can Steel trade for if we negotiate this turn. I don't think Hannibal will wait as Mehmed does. We are three turns away from Steam (could get in two, but very costly), so we would not be giving up the lead in military tech. Here, I hope, is another screen shot that will elicit some advise on best way to dicker.

I think you are right - it's our last chance to trade Steel. We can only trade with Washington and he is prepared to give us either Liberalism or Economics in return for Steel and some gold (a little more than 1000). He is probably close to having it researched himself since he requires gold as well. I think Liberalism and free religion + 10% research is the best choice like you mentioned earlier.

If you are going to do 20 turns I propose we agree on a tech path. I suppose Railroad followed by Combustion is still the best choice. It will also give our workers something meaningful to do.

If WW gets crazy we could revolt to Police State. Another small trick is to make a cease fire. I use this sometimes if I don't have any fresh troops. Might as well get rid of the WW while healing and regrouping. If our cities are starving due to WW use the culture slider. Looks like you are preparing for this by building a few theatres.

Regarding the celtic city on our continent I suggest we raze it.

Watch out for Brennus becoming a vassal of Hannibal. That would mean war against Hannibal. If he decides to become a vassal of Gandhi we could consider leaving him alone. What is the team opinion on these issues?

Got to run but will be back later today :) .

[QUOTE=I think you are right - it's our last chance to trade Steel. We can only trade with Washington and he is prepared to give us either Liberalism or Economics in return for Steel and some gold (a little more than 1000). He is probably close to having it researched himself since he requires gold as well. I think Liberalism and free religion + 10% research is the best choice like you mentioned earlier."

Yes, and I'm thinking we might be able to add some more gold and trade it to Hannibal for Economics

"If you are going to do 20 turns I propose we agree on a tech path. I suppose Railroad followed by Combustion is still the best choice. It will also give our workers something meaningful to do."

Agree . . . though I'd like to have the option to sidetrack for research Economics so I can incorporate it into the coming revolution

"If WW gets crazy we could revolt to Police State. Another small trick is to make a cease fire. I use this sometimes if I don't have any fresh troops. Might as well get rid of the WW while healing and regrouping. If our cities are starving due to WW use the culture slider. Looks like you are preparing for this by building a few theatres."

That's what I had in mind.

"Regarding the celtic city on our continent I suggest we raze it."

Yes . . . might be different if the city weren't on the gold.

"Watch out for Brennus becoming a vassal of Hannibal. That would mean war against Hannibal. If he decides to become a vassal of Gandhi we could consider leaving him alone. What is the team opinion on these issues?"QUOTE]

I'm concerned about taking out Hannibal, as that will put us contiguous with Gandhi. If necessary, might want to raze H's cities. Similar concern with Brennus becoming Gandhi's vassal. I'm thinking it might make sense to capture the remaining two target cities (to free Bibracte), then go for Brennus's two western cities, and finally try to take his remaining cities simultaneously (suspect that would be someone else's duty). Would then gift
Salamanca back (I think) to Spain.

Cut me some slack. I'll get the hang of this eventually.

Or maybe we would want to capture Hannibal's cities and then let Gandhi take them from us, similar to leif's very early idea.

Yes, and I'm thinking we might be able to add some more gold and trade it to Hannibal for Economics


Good idea - Free Market should be helpful

Agree . . . though I'd like to have the option to sidetrack for research Economics so I can incorporate it into the coming revolution

OK with me.

I'm concerned about taking out Hannibal, as that will put us contiguous with Gandhi. If necessary, might want to raze H's cities. Similar concern with Brennus becoming Gandhi's vassal. I'm thinking it might make sense to capture the remaining two target cities (to free Bibracte), then go for Brennus's two western cities, and finally try to take his remaining cities simultaneously (suspect that would be someone else's duty). Would then gift
Salamanca back (I think) to Spain.

Taking out the remaining cities simultaneously could be the key to avoiding that Brennus becomes a vassal to someone. Why not raze Salamanca? That way we don't have to worry about cultural pressure from this city.

Or maybe we would want to capture Hannibal's cities and then let Gandhi take them from us, similar to leif's very early idea.

That's an interesting idea for later.

"Why not raze Salamanca? That way we don't have to worry about cultural pressure from this city."

I was thinking that gifting might seduce Izzy, but I really don't know whether she'd be impressed or not.

I was thinking that gifting might seduce Izzy, but I really don't know whether she'd be impressed or not.

I don't know how much the AI values the gift of a city. Right now it would make no difference since we are already at the cap of +4 for having god trade relations. And we can stay at +4 by gifting her a tech should the value go down at some point.

It will probably be possible to sign a ten-turn peace treaty for a tech. Any opinions on the need and utility of that tactic in this circumstance?

I'll be playing tomorrow mid-morning, but checking back in here.

It will probably be possible to sign a ten-turn peace treaty for a tech. Any opinions on the need and utility of that tactic in this circumstance?

Sounds tempting. At some point in time it could easily be that we need peace for a few turns anyway to regroup and heal our troops. We could extend this to 10 turns then and make a peace treaty instead of just a cease fire. As long as we don't trade Steam Power it's unlikely that the 10 turns of peace will enable Brennus to get infantry so the extended peace period is probably only a small advantage for him. In the end the mouse holder is the best judge of how much a peace treaty slows down the attack and I would be happy with either decision.

Good luck with the turns!

Finally have had a chance to get a good long look at the save.

The only purpose I can see for having Brennus around is for us to extort Constitution and Rifling from him. If we can get those, then a ten turn peace may be worth it. His power graph shows a distinct uptick since the loss of his capital. The problem is that to extort tech from him will require that we take a significant portion of his territory, making him susceptible to becoming a Vassal of someone, whether it be Hannibal or Gandhi, and I hope it is Gandhi as we are at war already so we can just go ahead and wipe Brennus out.

I am having trouble understanding why we want to keep Izzie in the game. She is a slow researcher and, thus, of no help to Gandhi, even though she has good relations with him. I think we should raze Salamanca to give space to Camolodunum and then proceed to claim Izzie's holdings for our own. We have a tech advantage on her and it shouldn't be a long war.

I am intrigued by the idea of taking Hannibal's holdings and converting them to Gandhi's area. Hannibal is nearly off the power chart, so that will be an interesting fight. I'm not sure that we can pull this off in time to help Gandhi, so I need to think about it some more.

I think we need to begin to consider the end game a bit. For me the question is how to increase Gandhi's capacity to research. The fact that he doesn't have Chemistry yet is troubling. I think we may have to move our Frigates away from his fisheries to allow his cities to grow.

I'm going back to the beginning as I think the most productive areas for Gandhi are in our hands and perhaps we should consider what to give up in order to help him to the stars. The more area we can take on the other continent, the more we can give up to Gandhi? Are there other ways we can help him research? I don't see him getting any help from the other civs as his best friends are backwards. :rolleyes:

"I am having trouble understanding why we want to keep Izzie in the game. She is a slow researcher and, thus, of no help to Gandhi, even though she has good relations with him."

My thinking is that her good relations with Gandhi will prommote a long-term trading relationship that we can exploit by gifting techs to her that we want Gandhi to have. Her backwardness would be facilitating, as she would immediately try to trade with the most willing partner to achieve modernity. That's all theory. I have never tried anything like it before.
Is the plan flawed?
Is it worth denying ourselves her territory?
Are there advantages to simply haviing more players in the game?
What is her value as a buffer to the Ottoman/Carthaginian block?

"The fact that he doesn't have Chemistry yet is troubling. I think we may have to move our Frigates away from his fisheries to allow his cities to grow."

Unless I get advice to the contrary, I'm planning to back the frigates off once we get Steam and can upgrade some of them (others I will move out to ocean squares at the end of each turn, but move them in to monitor G's cities during the turn). At that point I will probably also gift Chemistry to Izzie and see what happens.

Will be playing soon but checking in here regularly.

My thinking is that her good relations with Gandhi will promote a long-term trading relationship that we can exploit by gifting techs to her that we want Gandhi to have. Her backwardness would be facilitating, as she would immediately try to trade with the most willing partner to achieve modernity. That's all theory. I have never tried anything like it before.
Is the plan flawed?
Is it worth denying ourselves her territory?
Are there advantages to simply having more players in the game?
What is her value as a buffer to the Ottoman/Carthaginian block?
I think your logic is good concerning Izzie being backward and trading techs quickly to get "caught up". As we continue to pound Brennus, we have a chance to test the theory I think. When you trade/gift Chemistry to Izzie, please keep an eye on Gandhi's tech and see how long it takes for Chemistry to show in his column. If it takes a while, Izzie should be toast. :hammer:

As far as the Ottomans and Carthaginians, I am not sure if Gandhi would build a space ship faster if the AI thinks there is competition or not? :hmm: In our last game, we held off a space ship launch for quite some time using spies to sabotage key production and pillage important hammer producing tiles. The decision will be whether to injure those civs to cripple their ability to build the space ship or allow them to compete for it and sabotage their ability to achieve it?

Should we decide to take a bite out of them, then Izzie as a buffer serves no purpose.

I also wonder if we attack, say, the Carthaginians, if that would drive them better relations with Gandhi and improve their trade chances?

"As far as the Ottomans and Carthaginians, I am not sure if Gandhi would build a space ship faster if the AI thinks there is competition or not?"

"I also wonder if we attack, say, the Carthaginians, if that would drive them better relations with Gandhi and improve their trade chances?"

I have no experience or insight relative to either of those queries. Hopefully someone else on the team does.

"When you trade/gift Chemistry to Izzie, please keep an eye on Gandhi's tech and see how long it takes for Chemistry to show in his column."

Will do.

I also wonder if we attack, say, the Carthaginians, if that would drive them better relations with Gandhi and improve their trade chances?

Yes, it will. Any civ we attack will get up to +4 diplomatic modifier with Gandhi due to "mutual military struggle". This has already made Brennus like Gandhi more. So we could declare on a civ with no intention of attacking just to improve Gandhis relations with that civ. When we revolt to free religion we also get the option to ask other civs to do the same thus removing the religious animosity between Gandhi and the other civ. When the UN is built and if we are able to be elected General Secretary we could pass a resolution making free religion a global civic. That would force Gandhi to give up Theocracy which is not doing him any good. We could also make Universal Suffrage and free speech global civics in order to improve relations between some civs. You can see the possible resolutions on the Victory Conditions screen (F8) under Resolutions. All depends on our ability to get the votes needed of course.

I think we need to begin to consider the end game a bit. For me the question is how to increase Gandhi's capacity to research. The fact that he doesn't have Chemistry yet is troubling. I think we may have to move our Frigates away from his fisheries to allow his cities to grow.

Gandhi does seem to be falling behind in tech. I think this is mainly due to less trade and maybe also the high cost of maintaining an army. He has almost the same population as Hannibal. Then again, Hannibal is financial. Giving away cities to Gandhi is an option but also a double edged sword because it will cause WW to accumulate. I believe the CRC team did this quite early - maybe you have noticed the "strangely" decreasing score and culture they had for a particular turn set. Best thing would be if Gandhi went to war against someone else and captured some cities. We could try to bribe some civ to attack Gandhi and then backstab them hoping that Gandhi would actually be able to take some cities away from them after we have softened them up. Hannibal could be a good choice since his cities are close to India.

Our Frigates must be 2 squares away from his fishing boats in order to allow them to fish. Maybe a good idea to do this.

"Our Frigates must be 2 squares away from his fishing boats in order to allow them to fish. Maybe a good idea to do this."

Is that two open squares or two counting the one in which we are anchored? Do diagonals make a difference?

"Our Frigates must be 2 squares away from his fishing boats in order to allow them to fish. Maybe a good idea to do this."

Is that two open squares or two counting the one in which we are anchored? Do diagonals make a difference?

As far as I remember it's counting the one in which we are anchored and I don't think diagonals make any difference. I think the rule is that all tiles adjacent to our Frigates can't be worked by our enemy - in this case Gandhi.

As far as I remember it's counting the one in which we are anchored and I don't think diagonals make any difference. I think the rule is that all tiles adjacent to our Frigates can't be worked by our enemy - in this case Gandhi.
Yes, I believe this is the case. That also means that when we approach one of Gandhi's cities to recon, we must try to stay at least one tile from the fisheries. In games I have played where the enemy keeps sailing past my cities, the city governor will reassign the citizen away from the fishery tile and I have to go back and change it. I'm sure this will be the case with the AI so sailing past a fishery will cause the citizen to get reassigned for at least that turn.

I think Carthage is the civ furthest along in tech? If so, we might consider driving him to Gandhi with a phoney war.

I would still like to consider what we need to take on the Celt continent to establish ourselves so we can give away our current homeland. That, I think, would vault Gandhi forward? :deadhorse:

I'm starting to sound like the Alphabet discussion... :rolleyes:

I would still like to consider what we need to take on the Celt continent to establish ourselves so we can give away our current homeland. That, I think, would vault Gandhi forward?

:lol: Frustating - I mean, fond - memories of a previous such attempt come to mind. Would the Civ IV Gandhi make better use of captured cities? :mischief: ;)

:lol: Frustating - I mean, fond - memories of a previous such attempt come to mind. Would the Civ IV Gandhi make better use of captured cities? :mischief: ;)
Hi Willow,

Nice to see you again. Hope all is well swimming with the corporate sharks! :sarcasm:

As I recall, the biggest reason for Gandhi's poor use of those beautiful cities we gave him in Civ3 was a lack of happy pills and the war weariness that had built up through all those years.

In this one, he has more than a one tile island, so I hope he can make beter use of them. And our territory has adequately supported us thus far, can't see any reason it wouldn't help him? Of course, I didn't see any reason in the Civ3 version until we gave him the cities and they shrank away to nothingness... :rolleyes: :cringe: :eek:
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Must almost be time for a new computer and some Civ4? :mischief:

Here is my turn log for the day (had an unexpected errand and wasn't able to play as much as anticipated):

323: Trade Steel plus 1450 gold to Washington for Liberalism


324: Brennus advances troops (no cavalry) out of the fog towards Vienne
The RNG is unkind: we lose a cavalry (at 90%) before dispatching a grenadier (and must delay aggression to protect city from his other units)
Sink three of Gandhi’s caravels in his home waters
Brennus will now talk to us, but he offers nothing but money for peace
Trade Liberalism and 650 gold to Hannibal for Economics
Note, with some surprise, that no one has Communism
Move culture to 10%, science reduced to gain gold for upgrading, so Steam will be delayed a turn

325 (1565AD): Brennus adopts Emancipation and Universal suffrage, plus he advances two more Grenadiers towards Vienne, tying us down further
Culture slider moved to 20%
Note that Gandhi does not have Economics

326: Exchange a grenadier for a rifleman, and Brennus inexplicably turns away from Vienne – should allow us to take the two cities impinging on Bibracte and possibly to call a cease fire just before it shucks off anarchy.
Foreign Advisor shows no changes, so I delay Steam one more turn to gain gold for upgrading beserkers before they embark
Frigate exposes 5 riflemen defending Verlamion
Citizens are already demanding emancipation

327: Sink two more of Gandhi’s caravels in his home waters, but beginning to question this tactic as he seems to be building nothing else
Take Durnovaria with loss of two cannons and a grenadier
Take Isca from the sea without losses (but no trading post)
Getting near a Great General and would like to have before peace, but Brennus is still not offering tech for peace

328: Steam power achieved, RR being researched
Mehmed has Communism but still says we are too advanced
Capture Gergovia without losses
Realize that Tolusa has the Hermitage in it and thus has a huge cultural boundary, which almost requires that we take the city soon.
Sign cease fire and get science back up to 70%
Move frigates away from Indian fish nets

329: Gandhi deposits 2 longbows and a settler just west of Tartar. Guess the blockade shouldn’t have been lifted
Take advantage to offer up two workers but delay trading Chemistry until I destroy future city
Trade Brennus resources for brief use of 5gpt and incense

330: The borders of Uppsala expand and it looks like we may get a few tiles back
Gandhi now has Chemistry and frigates, leaves workers alone

I anticipate going back to war next turn and taking at least three more cities before possibly accepting peace for tech (if offered). those cities would be Tolosa (can't hold Durnovaria unless I capture or raze it), Durocortorum, and Bagacum. It may make sense to try to finish Btennus off ASAP, since i don't see how to proceed without making him a vassal cnadidate.

Would appreciate some discussion before i continue play tomorrow mid-morning.

Here is the save: http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/539/Xteam_in_progress.CivWarlordsSave

A few quick comments before I've got to run...

I agree with your war plan - Tolosa has got to be captured.

Looked also at the tech screen. Washington will not trade any tech for Steam Power and that indicates to me that he has started researching it himself. Hannibal on the other hand is prepared to trade rifling and 760g to get it. I think we shouldn't wait long before we take this deal because Hannibal will probably be able to trade with his buddy Washington when he discovers Steam Power in the near future.

We could consider giving away Education and Economics to Izzy hoping that Economics will find it's way to Gandhi...

I'm not sure if we should capture the new Indian city. That will increase WW and I'm a bit afraid of that particularly if we are contemplating giving up some cities for Gandhi to capture. Here's a link with more details on WW: WW (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/war_weariness.php)

Remember to keep an eye on the starvation in Upsala (I suppose it's there on purpose to speed up the ironclad).

I anticipate going back to war next turn and taking at least three more cities before possibly accepting peace for tech (if offered). those cities would be Tolosa (can't hold Durnovaria unless I capture or raze it), Durocortorum, and Bagacum. It may make sense to try to finish Btennus off ASAP, since i don't see how to proceed without making him a vassal candidate.
Tolosa must be taken, no question. That raises the issue of Verlamion and whether we can hold Tolosa without taking it as they are only a couple of tiles apart. :eek:

In taking and razing Bagacum, I think we should build a new city on the desert hill 1 tile west. If we don't build it, the call of Gold and Oil is just too great and someone else will fill in the void. If it is Carthage, Old Sarai is essentially cut off by land from the rest of the empire.

If we take all of Brennus' cities save Camulodunum and Salamanca, I think we could sue for peace if tech is offered. If no tech is offered, we may as well send him to the electron heaven. The only one that he has good relations with is Izzie and it would be interesting if he becomes her Vassal? :rolleyes:

I would also make the trade with Hannibal, although I think Constitution may be the better trade at this time as we will need to get to Democracy and Emancipation. Rifling is available from other civs, once they decide to trade again, or a 5-turn research. I also think it is a good idea to give Education and Economics to Izzie and see if it loosens her trading with us? And if we think Washington is close to discovering Steam Power, why not trade it to him for his Gold on the same turn we trade to Hannibal? 760 Gold from Hannibal and 450 from Washington will help us speed along to Combustion and then to Democracy?

Snagging Communism would be a great catch as it allows us to build Scotland Yard and spies. Then we could monitor Gandhi without interfering with his food and production as well as more closely calculate what he is capable of and what we may need to provide him.

Here is the question I don't get from the WW article. Once the war is over with Brennus, if we remain relatively docile with Gandhi, does the war weariness go down? If it doesn't, we may have to change to Police State until we can get Jails, which come with Constitution.

If we are planning to give away any of our original core cities to Gandhi, then we should allow Bengal to remain. If we aren't sure of that strategy, then Bengal should probably be taken. If we take it, the best way to blockade that move would be to station a naval unit northwest of the mountain tile west of Tartar to intercept any Indian vessels before they can reach our territory.

Keep up the good work CP! :thumbsup:

EDIT - Almost forgot to tell you that I heard from Gator last night and he is doing much better. He is trying to catch up in RL and hopes to come visit with us soon. [party] :cheers:

After I quit the game last night, I started kicking myself (before the team had a chance) because I had not traded Education and then Economics to Izzie many turns ago. It will be done immediately.

I'm learning more and more from these discussions, which I had hoped would be the case when I joined the team.

“Remember to keep an eye on the starvation in Upsala”

That, at least, I’m on top of.

“I'm not sure if we should capture the new Indian city. That will increase WW and I'm a bit afraid of that particularly if we are contemplating giving up some cities for Gandhi to capture.”

As I understand it, capturing the new city will increase our WW, not Gandhi’s. Though our WW is certainly going to accumulate, by the time we are in a position to let Gandhi take cities we’ve captured (I don’t think we can maintain tech superiority if we lose those on our home continent), we should be able to deal with it. Prefer that to dealing with a city in our midst, because I’m not confident that I can foresee just what problems that might cause.

“In taking and razing Bagacum, I think we should build a new city on the desert hill 1 tile west. If we don't build it, the call of Gold and Oil is just too great and someone else will fill in the void. If it is Carthage, Old Sarai is essentially cut off by land from the rest of the empire.”

Hadn’t thought about that, but it makes sense to me.

“If we take all of Brennus' cities save Camulodunum and Salamanca, I think we could sue for peace if tech is offered. If no tech is offered, we may as well send him to the electron heaven. The only one that he has good relations with is Izzie and it would be interesting if he becomes her Vassal?”

I’m going to proceed with those thoughts in mind and see what happens. Could certainly live with him going to Izzie. (She won’t give us the time of day, anyway.)

“I would also make the trade with Hannibal, although I think Constitution may be the better trade at this time as we will need to get to Democracy and Emancipation. Rifling is available from other civs, once they decide to trade again, or a 5-turn research. . . . why not trade it to [Washington] for his Gold on the same turn we trade to Hannibal?”

That would be this turn, and that is what I will do. Will also open the possibility of getting Democracy from Brennus for peace.

“Snagging Communism would be a great catch as it allows us to build Scotland Yard and spies. Then we could monitor Gandhi without interfering with his food and production as well as more closely calculate what he is capable of and what we may need to provide him.”

Again . . . makes sense. Will keep in mind.

“Here is the question I don't get from the WW article. Once the war is over with Brennus, if we remain relatively docile with Gandhi, does the war weariness go down?:

My understanding is that WW goes down by about 1% each turn, so it recedes slowly.

“Almost forgot to tell you that I heard from Gator last night and he is doing much better. He is trying to catch up in RL and hopes to come visit with us soon.”

Good news. Game strategy is becoming increasingly anomalous with experience, and more minds will generate more hypothetical strategies with, hopefully, a few good ones falling out.

I'm playing now, but will check in regularly.

I would also make the trade with Hannibal, although I think Constitution may be the better trade at this time as we will need to get to Democracy and Emancipation. Rifling is available from other civs, once they decide to trade again, or a 5-turn research.

My idea was to trade for Rifling because it's more expensive than Constitution who is - as far as I remember - only 4 turns of research. I doubt that the civs unwilling to trade wil become willing any time soon.

I took Constitution, in part because I wanted to train a few more beserkers in NS.

Since you are following, here is updated turn log:

330: The borders of Uppsala expand and it looks like we may get a few tiles back
Gandhi now has Chemistry and frigates
Gift Education to Spain
Trade Steam to H for Constitution and 750g
Trade Steam to W for ~400g

331: Take and raze Bengal without losses
Trade Economics to Spain for 40 gold
B & W both have Democracy but not trading it
H, M, W, & B all have Corporation, only W & H will trade it
Declare war on Brennus and revolt (3 turns) to Free Religion, Police State, and Free Markets
Durocortorum falls from the sea without losses (no trading post)
A Great General appears in OS

Planning to use GG to promote four NS beserkers. Do you see a city that cries out for a military academy or instructor?

(I don’t think we can maintain tech superiority if we lose those on our home continent)
I know this goes beyond your turn set CP, but I would ask what difference it makes whether we are superior in tech or not? From my perspective, the idea here is to get Gandhi to launch. The advantages to giving up our cities are:
1. They are productive and large. Giving them up would maintain their size and most of their productivity.
2. Moving to the other continent provides space for Gandhi and will, hopefully, have him producing space ship parts and researching quicker to the next tech. We want him to focus on the spaceship, not on our war.
3. I think the fastest road to spaceship is for Gandhi to self-research it. I'm trying to figure out ways to give him the assets to do so.

Disadvantages include:
1. Our loss of capability as we try to grow cities founded by the AI and get them working for us.
2. Being able to defeat any civ trying to take our new area with reduced production.
3. Loss of resources and lux's to maintain our pop.

I'm sure there are more advantages and disadvantages, but I can't think right now. Got to run.

The main reason giving cities to Gandhi in the Civ III version of the game was that he didn't have any lux's to fight the War Weariness and all the beautifully crafted cities we gave him shrunk to nothing from the unhappiness. There should be enough lux in this game to keep him going.

@Frederiksberg - When I checked this morning, the number of turns to research Rifling and Constitution were the same. That meant to me we could, hopefully, get to Democracy faster and kill that stinking penalty for not having Emancipation. :rolleyes:

Disadvantages also include:
4. Not being able to stop someone who is getting ahead of Gandhi.

Brennus' days are numbered, unless he becomes someone's vassal, and I'm hoping nobody wants to fight with us.

Gandhi's armada, on the other hand, poses a serious dilemna. The settler he produced earlier out of nowhere leaves me uncertain as to what is in those three galleons. I am torn between attacking his frigates (at least one, two if we win the first battle) with the slight advantage we have. Might be able to force his galleons to sail around and not reach land next turn. Then we might be able to sink on e or two, figuring the best way to deal with his troops is before they land.

Here is my most recent turn log and the save, I am going to take a break and finish tonight. Any advice would be appreciated.

331: Take and raze Bengal without losses
Trade Economics to Spain for 40 gold
B & W both have Democracy but not trading it
H, M, W, & B all have Corporation, only W & H will trade it
Declare war on Brennus and revolt (3 turns) to Free Religion, Police State, and Free Markets
Durocortorum falls from the sea without losses (no trading post)
A Great General appears in OS

332: Mehmed and Izzie adopt Free Market
India still wants Economics

333 (1589AD): Gandhi now has Economics, but can’t tell if he traded for it
Verlamion falls from amphibious attack (again, no losses and no trading post left)
Brennus will not talk to us (guess he didn’t care for our breaking the cease fire)

334: Out of anarchy
Tolosa falls with the loss of a cannon

335: Hannibal has built the Kremlin (I think with a Great Engineer)
Gankhi has amassed 3 frigates and 3 galleons south of Delhi
Moving the culture slider to 30% gave us temporary possession of the forest SW of Upsalla and allowed a forest chop to greatly speed badly needed ironclad.


http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/539/Xteam_in_progress.CivWarlordsSave

Very nice war progress!

I have a couple of suggestions. Regarding the indian Frigates it might be an idea to distribute our frigates on the coast tiles in front of the indian naval stack so that the indian vessels are forced to end their turn on an ocean tile if they want to advance further west. Then we can attack without the indian frigates having the 10% coastal defense.

We could consider asking Washington to adopt Free Religion. He will do this in return for 710g. This will improve his relations to Gandhi. The same thing can be done with Izzy, only we have to give her Liberalism first.

Keep up the good work!

EDIT: Just noticed that there is uranium just outside Thaena. That will enable Hannibal to build destroyers and transports even without oil which he is lacking (When he discovers Combustion, of course).

Gandhi's shoes must be pinching if he is still trying to put settlers into our side of the continent, and he does seem to be lagging in the technology sweepstakes.

But I remain confused about what to do about that.

If we abandon the home land to him he is going to have to deal with major unhappiness in his new cities from "want to rejoin the motherland" penalties as well as having to rebuild lots of cultural infrastucture, so instead of putting his resources into the space race he will put resources there, first quelling any unhappiness then rebuilding what was destroyed in the capture of the cities. And each city he takes will add war weariness to his population which we have no way of measuring until we can put spies into his core towns. As long as he suffers minimal losses and is not fighting any battles outside his cultural borders I think the WW burden will remain manageable. Giving him open season on our territory and letting him capture towns will add to that burden pretty heavily, I should think.

As I ponder the end game here, I am tending to the view that trimming the world to three nations: Vikings, Gandhi, and a friend of Gandhi who is relatively powerless may be the way to go.

We will need to control enough population to manage the UN issue till we get to that point, though, and that is a situation that will come up sooner than I think any of us are expecting right now. Carrying the fight on until Brennus is gone from the map is probably the best solution to the short term requirements, then aiming our armies to the next biggest dog until we have the population needed (60%) to make the UN votes a non issue would be my approach, keeping our homelands as a production core to support that effort.

"it might be an idea to distribute our frigates on the coast tiles in front of the indian naval stack so that the indian vessels are forced to end their turn on an ocean tile if they want to advance further west."

That would divide our fleet so that Gandhi could conquer. Of course the AI is not known for such concerted action, so I'll consider it.

"We could consider asking Washington to adopt Free Religion. He will do this in return for 710g. This will improve his relations to Gandhi. The same thing can be done with Izzy, only we have to give her Liberalism first."

I'll do that if Gandhi doesn't land units that force me to upgrade all our MPs.

"As I ponder the end game here, I am tending to the view that trimming the world to three nations: Vikings, Gandhi, and a friend of Gandhi who is relatively powerless may be the way to go. "

Are you suggesting that getting Gandhi to trade with as many folks as possible is not going to be an effective strategy?

If we could get Gandhi to go to war with Hannibal and then weaken H's cities so he could take them, then that part of G's WW would go away once we eliminate H. Also thinking that we could raze H's cities near India and hope Gandhi fills in. All that presupposes we can get ahead of H in military tech.

Playing again now, but will check in.

If we abandon the home land to him he is going to have to deal with major unhappiness in his new cities from "want to rejoin the motherland" penalties as well as having to rebuild lots of cultural infrastucture, so instead of putting his resources into the space race he will put resources there, first quelling any unhappiness then rebuilding what was destroyed in the capture of the cities. And each city he takes will add war weariness to his population which we have no way of measuring until we can put spies into his core towns. As long as he suffers minimal losses and is not fighting any battles outside his cultural borders I think the WW burden will remain manageable. Giving him open season on our territory and letting him capture towns will add to that burden pretty heavily, I should think.
:eek: You make some very good points here! :goodjob:
I had hoped that a repeat of the Civ III version wouldn't happen, but perhaps you're right and it will. By giving our cities, we could make the situation worse...
As I ponder the end game here, I am tending to the view that trimming the world to three nations: Vikings, Gandhi, and a friend of Gandhi who is relatively powerless may be the way to go.
Yes, I think this is a good approach. Is there a good way to transfer captured cities to Gandhi? Or would it be better to raze cities to clear a place for Gandhi to settle? The Carthaginian territory would be nice to give to Gandhi.
We will need to control enough population to manage the UN issue till we get to that point, though, and that is a situation that will come up sooner than I think any of us are expecting right now. Carrying the fight on until Brennus is gone from the map is probably the best solution to the short term requirements, then aiming our armies to the next biggest dog until we have the population needed (60%) to make the UN votes a non issue would be my approach, keeping our homelands as a production core to support that effort.
I agree, Brennus can go as he isn't talking.

Nice progress on the war CP. Keep up the pressure on Brennus. :goodjob:

Is Carthage the next victim? If so, can we give this territory to Gandhi? :hmm:
I wonder if we start on the east coast and work our way to the west if Gandhi would follow along behind us and grab those cities? Is it worth trying?

Once we get Combustion, I think we should hold it as long as we can. Democracy to Rifling (unless we can arrange a trade) heading for Artillery?

CACTUS PETE
SGOTM4W REPORT FOR TURNS 336-340


336: Gandhi avoids my frigates (which I deployed to keep him off the forested tile NW of Hittite) and lands 9 units on gems west of Hittite. There are 2 rifles, 2 elephants, 1 mace, and 4 siege weapons. This should be interesting. I may need to use the GG to upgrade units after Gandhi’s cats degrade them.
Izzie now has Physics

337: Washington adopts Emancipation
As expected, Gandhi’s fleet retreats toward Delphi and his troops reduce Hittite’s cultural defenses from 40% to 12%, but he waits to attack. Counterattack reduces his forces 50%. Hittite is no longer in danger, but did use considerable gold for upgrades and inflicted WW on Gandhi (plus more next turn). Liking more and more the idea of giving him another enemy.
GG is reserved for upgrading four NS beserkers -- never had triple-city-raider infantry (or any infantry, for that matter) to play with.
Frigate now in Bombay; Ironclad trained in Upsalla
Continue to advance on last two Celtic cities

338: Hannibal’s Golden Age has ended (didn’t know he had one)
Gandhi’s six-ship fleet retreats towards Lahore, he pillages a bit, weakly attacks Hittite, and is a bit lucky to kill a grenadier.
Gandhi’s men are all buried in Viking territory

339: Gandhi gets lucky and sinks our most advanced frigate in his waters
Camulodunum falls without losses, and Salamanca should be razed next turn
Hannibal has SAM infantry, which means he has Rocketry! This is reflected in his power graph. Going to war, we’ve gotten further behind than I thought at all likely.
Leptis has 2 such infantry, along with 2 cavalry and 2 rifles
Another frigate pops up in Bombay, and a galleon in Bangalore

340 (1610AD): Razed Salamanca and got four needed workers back, but probably a mistake, as Izzie is annoyed that we razed one of ‘her’ cities.
Brennus is eliminated. Time to move on.


NOTES AND SUGGESTIONS

I have revolted back to Representation, since there is a great deal of war weariness and that civic will help with research.

Hannibal and Mehmed have a defensive pact.

We’ve got a powerful military and probably need to find a use for it wherever/whenever we can gain a tactical advantage.

I sacrificed some workers to Gandhi (don’t think I mentioned that above), and maybe we will need more when new techs give them something to do.

Settler in Samarqand is intended for the hill east of OS, as per leif’s suggestion

I’ve been herding an Indian frigate down our east coast toward an ironclad. Hope that can be followed through on.

I have been moving naval units toward Ning-hsia, anticipating that they will most likely be needed in that area next.

Some of the healing units in Brennus’ old territory can be moved by the galleons I’ve left in the area. The rest could hike overland once we have orders for them.

Whoever plays next will need to be patient the first turn, because there are a great many units to determine what, if anything, to do with (now that the war is over), depending on the course(s) of action settled on; moreover, cities will need to be managed (presumably with science in mind) when they come out of the anarchy.

FOR DISCUSSION BEFORE PRODEEDING:

I had to fight Gandhi much too often (especially at sea), and we’re either going to have to change some dynamics or our tactics; otherwise, I’m afraid that will continue and become increasingly frequent.

We may actually have enough ships soon to blockade all his ports, but that would slow down his research, so let’s try something else.

I will try to find time to check in tomorrow and contribute to the discussion.

The save is below:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/539/Xteam_in_progress.CivWarlordsSave

If we could get Gandhi to go to war with Hannibal and then weaken H's cities so he could take them, then that part of G's WW would go away once we eliminate H. Also thinking that we could raze H's cities near India and hope Gandhi fills in. All that presupposes we can get ahead of H in military tech.

This should be possible when done the other way around. We ask Hannibal to "join" us in the war against Gandhi. He is open for this suggestion (can be seen by calling him up. War against Gandhi is not in red). When he DOWs Gandhi his Defensive Pact with Mehmet is also conveniently cancelled. Then we attack him full force :devil:. The attack could be a mix of razing cities and pillaging production tiles to make sure he is weakened and weakening his defenses in cities we hope Gandhi can capture (bombing and killing all defenders except one). One problem with this plan is that Hannibal may be researching Assembly Line now and could have infantry quite soon. That would probably force us to halt the war until we can upgrade our CR grenadiers to infantry.

Is Carthage the next victim? If so, can we give this territory to Gandhi?
I wonder if we start on the east coast and work our way to the west if Gandhi would follow along behind us and grab those cities? Is it worth trying?

Once we get Combustion, I think we should hold it as long as we can. Democracy to Rifling (unless we can arrange a trade) heading for Artillery?

Best way for Gandhi to get territory is to capture it from Hannibal because it would raise WW with Hannibal and not us (These are separate numbers). The WW with Hannibal he can get rid of. If we are going to war against Hannibal we should also keep Railroad to ourselves - machine guns are very tough defenders if you don't have any artillery.

EDIT: And one more thing. We need a tech we can bribe Hannibal with. Democracy is a possibility. Bribing him with Railroad and then attacking sounds silly to me.

:rockon: Nice work CP, Brennus is now a memory! [party]

Roster:
Gator - UP
RRAU - On Deck
Bede
Sanabas
Leif
Frederiksberg
Cactus Pete - Just played! :hammer:

@RRAU - You are probably next, if you have the time. :D

This should be possible when done the other way around. We ask Hannibal to "join" us in the war against Gandhi. He is open for this suggestion (can be seen by calling him up. War against Gandhi is not in red). When he DOWs Gandhi his Defensive Pact with Mehmet is also conveniently cancelled. Then we attack him full force :devil:. The attack could be a mix of razing cities and pillaging production tiles to make sure he is weakened and weakening his defenses in cities we hope Gandhi can capture (bombing and killing all defenders except one). One problem with this plan is that Hannibal may be researching Assembly Line now and could have infantry quite soon. That would probably force us to halt the war until we can upgrade our CR grenadiers to infantry.

EDIT: And one more thing. We need a tech we can bribe Hannibal with. Democracy is a possibility. Bribing him with Railroad and then attacking sounds silly to me.

Hannibal has Democracy. :sad:
I like the concept of this but I don't think Gandhi is in any shape to exploit the advantage we're trying to give him. He doesn't have Steel, so no Cannons. He doesn't have Democracy, so he has to be feeling the Emancipation pinch. I think we have to gift/trade Steel to Izzie right away and we should probably also think about Steam Power as well.

Perhaps we need to take a little time to consolidate and get some Jails built to reduce WW? We are burning up 30% on the culture slider to keep happiness that we need in the research column to catch up a bit.

Perhaps we should delay researching Combustion and try to get Biology so we can trade for a few techs we need, should we reach it first?

Blockading Gandhi's ports, as you said CP, will probably only set him back. I think we need to set back Hannibal. He's higher in the power chart than us and may have a bit better tech. We need to slow that down. How?

First, a bit of house cleaning: I started the Forbidden Pallace in Bibracte and then quickly reconsidered when I realized the Palace at Versaille was next door, but I failed to remove it from the queue list, so Gator needs to clean up for me.

Second: Frederiksberg suggested that there was a way to bribe civs to go to the Free Religion civic. I was perfectly willing to be corrupt, but I was never able to find a way to do so. I'd appreciate an explanation of how it can be done. More importantly, how can we utilize religion to our advantage? I confess, I've completely ignored it, as I rarely use it in my games.

"One problem with this plan is that Hannibal may be researching Assembly Line now and could have infantry quite soon."

See turn 339 above.

"

"We need a tech we can bribe Hannibal with."

That occurred to me too. I was thinking Biology, in part because our Celtic cites could really benefit from it, and someone said you need population to control the UN.

"Perhaps we need to take a little time to consolidate and get some Jails built to reduce WW? We are burning up 30% on the culture slider to keep happiness that we need in the research column to catch up a bit."

Culture is at 30% due to WW vs Brennus, which will disappear when anarchy ceases. There will be some that has built up with Gandhi, but probably not enough to adjust the slider from 0%.

"Blockading Gandhi's ports, as you said CP, will probably only set him back."

Yes, but if we don't, he will attack us again. Possibly just completely blockading the two cities in the straits is a compromise worth considering. We could throw a lot of galleons on top of frigates in the mix to discourage him. We just don't want any more conflict with him. This is a problem we need to try to solve before proceeding.

"I think we have to gift/trade Steel to Izzie right away and we should probably also think about Steam Power as well."

Similar to above . . . If we do, it will be harder to blockade him. We might want to delay one of them until we have, or nearly have, Combustion. But that is all old think, and we need new ideas.

I note that Izzie has closed borders with Mehmed and Hannibal. This means that they can only attack our cites via the sea. If (while) we have destroyers and they don't, we can be at war pretty safely and hope that they put units aboard galleons.

BTW, note that Assembly Line (infantry) requires Corporation, which obsoletes the Great Lighthouse. While we are trying to recover and get ahead in science, the GL may not be disposable. Is there another way to go other than with infantry?

Hannibal has Democracy. :sad:

D'oh. I think I looked at an old save. That makes it almost impossible to bribe Hannibal. We could try the same tactics but with Mehmet as the victim instead. He is weaker and is probably not trading with Gandhi. Or we could simply attack him to take his cities and extort some techs. I think it's important that we keep Izzy in the game since she has many resource deals with Gandhi and it's also likely that she's doing tech deals with him.

I think we have to gift/trade Steel to Izzie right away and we should probably also think about Steam Power as well.

Maybe start by gifting one of them. We don' want to give any techs to Izzy if Gandhi doesn't have some techs he can trade to her so I would wait with one of these techs.


Perhaps we need to take a little time to consolidate and get some Jails built to reduce WW? We are burning up 30% on the culture slider to keep happiness that we need in the research column to catch up a bit.

It's impossible to see how bad WW is since we are currently in anarchy. Maybe things are OK. Depends on how much WW we are getting from the war against Gandhi. I don't think it's much because the last battles we fought on our home soil.

Perhaps we should delay researching Combustion and try to get Biology so we can trade for a few techs we need, should we reach it first?


That's an interesting idea. I think anyway we should finish researching Railroad first. Big question is if we can afford not to trade Railroad to Washington when we get it?

Blockading Gandhi's ports, as you said CP, will probably only set him back. I think we need to set back Hannibal. He's higher in the power chart than us and may have a bit better tech. We need to slow that down. How?

We could attack him. Attacking his buddy Mehmet is another posibility allthough it's unclear how much that will affect him since he still has Washington to trade techs with. But maybe this is a good situation since Washington will trade with Gandhi as well.

EDIT: X-posted with Cactus Pete.

Second: Frederiksberg suggested that there was a way to bribe civs to go to the Free Religion civic. I was perfectly willing to be corrupt, but I was never able to find a way to do so. I'd appreciate an explanation of how it can be done. More importantly, how can we utilize religion to our advantage? I confess, I've completely ignored it, as I rarely use it in my games.

The mechanics are simple: Call up the leader you want to "persuade" and then click on "Adopt Free Religion" in the trade screen and start bargaining. In some cases it is shown in red because that particular leader is unwilling or it could be missing entirely - either because that civ does not know Liberalism or because it has recently had a revolt preventing any new changes for a while (6 turns I think). Adopting a religion will give you both good friends (Those with the same religion) and enemies (Those with different religion). How many diplomatic points you can earn this way depends on the leader. Some leaders like Izzy and Saladin value shared religion very much and the diplomatic modifier can go as high as +7 (or is it 8?) over time. Other leaders will rarely go above +3, +4 (Mao). In this game I think we are best served by getting the other civs to give up their religions since that will remove their negative diplomatic modifiers in relation to Gandhi.

Yes, but if we don't, he will attack us again. Possibly just completely blockading the two cities in the straits is a compromise worth considering. We could throw a lot of galleons on top of frigates in the mix to discourage him. We just don't want any more conflict with him. This is a problem we need to try to solve before proceeding.

I don't think the blockade has got to be complete. In my experience the AI is very timid when it comes to sending out naval units when enemy vessels are visible near the city. So posting a Frigate near Gandhi's cities but never adjacent to any sea resources migth be enough to prevent his ships from leaving their safe ports.

"Call up the leader you want to "persuade" and then click on "Adopt Free Religion"

I never noticed this. Is it available in the present save for any leaders?

"I don't think the blockade has got to be complete. In my experience the AI is very timid when it comes to sending out naval units when enemy vessels are visible near the city. So posting a Frigate near Gandhi's cities but never adjacent to any sea resources migth be enough to prevent his ships from leaving their safe ports."

Over the last twenty-plus turns Gandhi certainly sailed frigates when ships were visible to him. How close to the actual city of emberkation, I didn't make note of, but they were within attack distance. Do you think the programming is different for galleons? How about galleons escorted by frigates?

"Call up the leader you want to "persuade" and then click on "Adopt Free Religion"

I never noticed this. Is it available in the present save for any leaders?

Yes - we can make Mehmed adopt Free Religion if we give him Steel.

Over the last twenty-plus turns Gandhi certainly sailed frigates when ships were visible to him. How close to the actual city of emberkation, I didn't make note of, but they were within attack distance. Do you think the programming is different for galleons? How about galleons escorted by frigates?

I'm afraid I lack hard evidence. I have just noticed a strange reluctance by the AI to attack from a city even in cases where it had superior naval power. My theory is that some code has been put there to make the AI less easy to bait and trick to leave the city and that's what makes it keep units inside the city even though it doesn't make sense for naval units. But I can't confirm this.

"Yes - we can make Mehmed adopt Free Religion if we give him Steel."

Thanks. Do we want to do that?

"I have just noticed a strange reluctance by the AI to attack from a city even in cases where it had superior naval power."

I've noticed what I regarded as the AI's susceptibility to naval intimidation . . . quite possibly the same thing you picked up on. That's part of why I was taken by surprise by G's behavior. Even if it's a partial truth, I'm concerned that intimidation may cause Gandhi to stay put but build naval units to the exclusion of everything else. I suspect that he did that during my turn set. I really wish we could come up with a different strategy.

"Yes - we can make Mehmed adopt Free Religion if we give him Steel."

Thanks. Do we want to do that?

I think it depends on our overall strategy. Do we pursue the peaceful development trying to improve our own tech speed and making the other civs more friendly towards Gandhi or do we take advantage of our strong army and attack someone.

I'm starting to think that it's not the right time to attack Hannibal. He already has SAM Infantry and could easily be close to having ordinary infantry as well. Izzy and Washington I would prefer to keep in the game because they trade with Gandhi and Izzy has many resource deals with him. That leaves only Mehmed as a possible target right now. What we could do is to trade Steel to Mehmed in return for adopting Free Religion, war with Gandhi and a small amount of gold. Bribing him into going to war is necessary in order to break the defensive pact he has with Hannibal. Then we attack him and try to squeeze out a tech or two. I think we should be aiming for a short war and not build many more troops (we already have 21 grenadiers, 6 cannons and 3 cavalry). Maybe we need a few more cannons.

Rather than troops I would build 3 more universities in some of our commerce cities and then Oxford in Nidaros so that we can hire more scientists there. What about building The Globe Theatre in Bibracte? Would make that city an almost ideal place to use the whip.

In the longer perspective I think we can handle Hannibal by denying him access to oil and thus preventing him from building armored vehicles, gunships etc. He has no oil inside his own borders but might be able to trade one from Washington who has two oil resources on land and one off-shore. One of Washingtons oil resources is very close to Vienne and we might be able to get this one peacefully by applying cultural pressure i.e. hiring artists and maybe building the Hermitage. Unfortunately Hannibal already has uranium in two places SW of Thaenae and NW of Kerkouane so he will be able to build destroyers, battleships and ICBM's. Nuclear weapons we can get rid of if we manage to pass the non-proliferation resolution in due time in the UN.

[QUOTE=Frederiksberg;5368368]I think it depends on our overall strategy. Do we pursue the peaceful development trying to improve our own tech speed and making the other civs more friendly towards Gandhi or do we take advantage of our strong army and attack someone.

Once we've healed and positioned our troops, can we not find a compromise? I'm not clear why the two approaches are mutually exclusive.

I'm starting to think that it's not the right time to attack Hannibal. He already has SAM Infantry and could easily be close to having ordinary infantry as well.

I'm unclear on the difference.

Izzy and Washington I would prefer to keep in the game because they trade with Gandhi and Izzy has many resource deals with him. That leaves only Mehmed as a possible target right now. What we could do is to trade Steel to Mehmed in return for adopting Free Religion, war with Gandhi and a small amount of gold. Bribing him into going to war is necessary in order to break the defensive pact he has with Hannibal. Then we attack him and try to squeeze out a tech or two. I think we should be aiming for a short war and not build many more troops (we already have 21 grenadiers, 6 cannons and 3 cavalry). Maybe we need a few more cannons.

Does Mehmed have cities we'd want to take that we can hold against cultural pressure?

Rather than troops I would build 3 more universities in some of our commerce cities and then Oxford in Nidaros so that we can hire more scientists there. What about building The Globe Theatre in Bibracte? Would make that city an almost ideal place to use the whip.

Makes sense . . . Any reason why this is incompatible with a short war vs Mehmed?

In the longer perspective I think we can handle Hannibal by denying him access to oil and thus preventing him from building armored vehicles, gunships etc. He has no oil inside his own borders but might be able to trade one from Washington who has two oil resources on land and one off-shore. One of Washingtons oil resources is very close to Vienne and we might be able to get this one peacefully by applying cultural pressure i.e. hiring artists and maybe building the Hermitage.

Would it make sense to not develop our own oil reserves and then trade for W's extra to keep H from getting it?

QUOTE]

I'm still looking for a tactic that will allow us to avoid conflict with G in the short term.

Once we've healed and positioned our troops, can we not find a compromise? I'm not clear why the two approaches are mutually exclusive.

Maybe they don't ned to be. Particularly if we can make the war short and fight it mainly with the troop we already have so that most of our cities can focus on building improvements. Taking out Mehmed will probably slow down Hannibals tech pace somewhat but since those two are supposedly not trading with Gandhi it may not matter much to him.

I'm starting to think that it's not the right time to attack Hannibal. He already has SAM Infantry and could easily be close to having ordinary infantry as well.

I'm unclear on the difference.

SAM infantry are best at fighting aircrafts and are a little weaker (18 vs 20) than ordinary infantry.

Does Mehmed have cities we'd want to take that we can hold against cultural pressure?

That doesn't look too good since the ottoman cities are quite close to each other and to the spanish and american cities. Could be a reason not to go to war right now.

Would it make sense to not develop our own oil reserves and then trade for W's extra to keep H from getting it?

Nice idea but then we would have to give away two cities that are placed on top of oil first...

I'm starting to doubt that we should go to war right now. How about persuing th UN path. That means researching Physics - Electricity - Radio - Mass Media. If we build the UN in Camulodunum and give the city away to Izzy we should be certain of the General Secretary position. Our best chance of improving Gandhis relations to Mehmed and Hannibal is to pass the Free Religion and Universal Suffrage resolutions. Right now Gandhis GNP sucks big time (he is dead last in GNP) - maybe because he has adopted Mercantilism.

The alternative could be to research towards Assembly Line and then attack Hannibal with our CR infantry. Allthough this slows down Hannibal it won't help Gandhi and that's my main worry.

Wow, lots of discussion!! :goodjob:

Right now Gandhis GNP sucks big time (he is dead last in GNP) - maybe because he has adopted Mercantilism.
I don't know if this is an accurate indicator as the total amount of gold is recorded, not the Gold per Turn? I've always wondered about it as the curves on the graph look like the total gold to me.

I just called up Hannibal and he said to me, "Fear my Artillery". That's not good!

However, I think we need to plan on a war with Hannibal soon. He is getting too far ahead in tech and will be in a position to launch a space ship before Gandhi.

Looking at the two empires, Hannibal and Mehmed, I am struck that in Hannibal's empire there are mostly farms and in Mehmed's there are mostly Towns from Cottages. This makes me think that conquering Mehmed first will help give us a monetary boost. It will also improve our relations with Izzie as she hates him. I think we can fight this war with what we have and at the same time consolodate our holdings in Cetlia and get research moving again.

I think we should follow the warmonger's tech path of Combustion, Rifling, Assembly Line and Artillery, trading when we can. We also need to pick up Democracy along the way. We can bribe Mehmed with Steel and then stab him in the back.

Hopefully, this will put us in a position to take on Hannibal. At this point, it seems to me that the best help we can give Gandhi is to eliminate his rivals and support his friends, although we'll need to watch Washington. He could head for a Space Ship too, but he is a bit behind Hannibal.

EDIT - Just remembered that I haven't addressed CP's question about our fighting with Gandhi. I think the best way to stop him fighting us is to focus him on someone else. Allying with Mehmed may help that a bit but Mehmed is too far away. Gandhi is not ready to face Hannibal, in fact I think Gandhi would lose several cities to Hannibal. So, we need to get ready to take on Hannibal to prepare him for Gandhi. :crazyeye:

:blush: The short answer is that I don't have one at the moment. :deadhorse:

I don't know if this is an accurate indicator as the total amount of gold is recorded, not the Gold per Turn? I've always wondered about it as the curves on the graph look like the total gold to me.

They are a bit hard to decipher. This might help: The GNP Graph (http://www.dos486.com/civ4/epic9/page7.shtml)

However, I think we need to plan on a war with Hannibal soon. He is getting too far ahead in tech and will be in a position to launch a space ship before Gandhi.

As things are going right now I think that all civs - even Izzy - can launch before Gandhi.

Looking at the two empires, Hannibal and Mehmed, I am struck that in Hannibal's empire there are mostly farms and in Mehmed's there are mostly Towns from Cottages. This makes me think that conquering Mehmed first will help give us a monetary boost. It will also improve our relations with Izzie as she hates him. I think we can fight this war with what we have and at the same time consolodate our holdings in Cetlia and get research moving again.

Problem with taking Mehmed's cities is that we will have a hard time keeping some of them due to cultural pressure from Spain and America. Out of Mehmeds 6 cities I think its only 3 we can use: Bursa, Istanbul and Konya. Edirne wil come under cultural pressure from Madrid, Ankara is under pressure from Atlanta and Samsun is pure crap. Should we simply raze these cities? Anyway, what we stand to gain is only 3 fully functional cities. Might be good enough though. Relations with Izzy will not change unless we can get her to join the war...

Hopefully, this will put us in a position to take on Hannibal. At this point, it seems to me that the best help we can give Gandhi is to eliminate his rivals and support his friends, although we'll need to watch Washington. He could head for a Space Ship too, but he is a bit behind Hannibal.

I don't think we should give up helping Gandhi and I would like to try the UN path. Hard question is if we should go for Assembly Line and Artillery first in order to remove Hannibal or go for the UN first. Removing Mehmed and Hannibal won't help Gandhi's tech pace it's more likely to slow it down. The UN path would most likely help him if we manage to pass resolutions increasing trade, enforcing his favorit civic and banning nuclear weapons. From my point of view we have lost control of the game if we allow other civs - particularly Gandhi - to develop nuclear weapons. Firing nuclear weapons increases WW a lot. At least we should aim to aquire Physics quite soon to get an idea of where the uranium is. All we know is that Hannibal has two uranium mines already. If Gandhi has no uranium the nuclear ban is still nice but maybe not crucial.

They are a bit hard to decipher. This might help: The GNP Graph (http://www.dos486.com/civ4/epic9/page7.shtml)
Thanks, this is very good info. Might have to change some lines of code in my game for that graph. :goodjob:

Problem with taking Mehmed's cities is that we will have a hard time keeping some of them due to cultural pressure from Spain and America. Out of Mehmeds 6 cities I think its only 3 we can use: Bursa, Istanbul and Konya. Edirne wil come under cultural pressure from Madrid, Ankara is under pressure from Atlanta and Samsun is pure crap. Should we simply raze these cities? Anyway, what we stand to gain is only 3 fully functional cities. Might be good enough though. Relations with Izzy will not change unless we can get her to join the war...
Then that is what we should do. Please see below.

I don't think we should give up helping Gandhi and I would like to try the UN path. Hard question is if we should go for Assembly Line and Artillery first in order to remove Hannibal or go for the UN first. Removing Mehmed and Hannibal won't help Gandhi's tech pace it's more likely to slow it down. The UN path would most likely help him if we manage to pass resolutions increasing trade, enforcing his favorite civic and banning nuclear weapons. From my point of view we have lost control of the game if we allow other civs - particularly Gandhi - to develop nuclear weapons. Firing nuclear weapons increases WW a lot. At least we should aim to aquire Physics quite soon to get an idea of where the uranium is. All we know is that Hannibal has two uranium mines already. If Gandhi has no uranium the nuclear ban is still nice but maybe not crucial.
This is an interesting argument. I haven't looked at it like that before and it might work. :thumbsup:

The problem I see to beelining is the weakness we will have in military techs and the chance that a Transport full of Tanks and some Bombers show up over our core cities. Also, as Brother Bede has pointed out to me numerous times, we need enough population to control the UN votes. And that means more :hammer:

“Nice idea but then we would have to give away two cities that are placed on top of oil first...”

Oh . . . Never mind.

“I'm starting to doubt that we should go to war right now. How about persuing th UN path. That means researching Physics - Electricity - Radio - Mass Media. If we build the UN in Camulodunum and give the city away to Izzy we should be certain of the General Secretary position. Our best chance of improving Gandhis relations to Mehmed and Hannibal is to pass the Free Religion and Universal Suffrage resolutions.

Given that we could use the UN to help Gandhi’s tech pace, wouldn’t we still have to combine that with attacking his competitors at some point? Are you just saying that perhaps we should get the UN first? You’ve certainly convinced me that the UN would be very helpful (not completely convinced that its essential), but I’m reluctant not only to let our military stand idly by (until it becomes obsolete and we have to take away from research to upgrade) but also to not take advantage of the research we’ve already done and go ahead and get Combustion so we can, at least temporarily, control the seas. BTW, who, besides Washington (and Gandhi, but he seems no threat) is likely to compete with us in getting the UN? I’d like to know if the team thinks the UN is essential and whether not going that tech path now will make it unlikely we build it.

“Hard question is if we should go for Assembly Line and Artillery first in order to remove Hannibal or go for the UN first. Removing Mehmed and Hannibal won't help Gandhi's tech pace it's more likely to slow it down.”

It’s not clear to me that H is ever going to help G’s tech because he’s well ahead of him. Are you thinking open borders or trading techs or what (and when)?

On the other hand, wouldn’t it help G if we either raze H’s cities on G’s border to accommodate his expansion, or capture them and allow G to take them from us, or even weaken them and then allow G to take them from H (as I think was suggested earlier (though I’m unclear how we could accomplish that)? My thinking is that, long term, we should pursue one of those strategies (though can’t see getting any of them done soon). If there is a strong argument against doing that at all, ever, then please explain, and I’ll adjust my thinking.

“As things are going right now I think that all civs - even Izzy - can launch before Gandhi.”

Absolutely, and I see no way to keep G from losing the race except to, at some point, attack his competitors. I would be delighted for someone to convince me otherwise.

“Just remembered that I haven't addressed CP's question about our fighting with Gandhi. I think the best way to stop him fighting us is to focus him on someone else.”

If getting Mehmed to declare war really has a chance of turning G’s attention from us, that would be a pretty persuasive argument for attacking M as soon as our forces heal a bit. I do have concern that he would become H’s vassal.

“What we could do is to trade Steel to Mehmed in return for adopting Free Religion, war with Gandhi and a small amount of gold. Bribing him into going to war is necessary in order to break the defensive pact he has with Hannibal. Then we attack him and try to squeeze out a tech or two. I think we should be aiming for a short war and not build many more troops (we already have 21 grenadiers, 6 cannons and 3 cavalry). Maybe we need a few more cannons.”

Shouldn’t we gift it to Izzie too, hoping that she’ll trade with G?

“One of Washingtons oil resources is very close to Vienne and we might be able to get this one peacefully by applying cultural pressure i.e. hiring artists and maybe building the Hermitage.”

If the team thinks this has a decent chance of success (and I’ve no experience with such a tactic), let’s try it.

Controlling the UN votes are important to prevent Gandhi or someone else from achieving a UN victory. I don't really have a sense of the voting blocs, but votes for either Gandhi or us are unlikely at this point as our friends are too low in the population count. Getting in the race requires one of two things: 1) build the building; or, 2) have the biggest population of all the nations. Neither one is a sufficient condition for election to the Secretary General post which allows control of the resolutions later voted upon. Election as SecGen requires that nations representing a simple majority of the total world population vote for the candidate. Abstaining leaders can cause deadlocks.

The simplest way to guarantee control of the voting is not necessarily to build or control the UN, just control more than 50% of the world's population when the vote for SecGen takes place. That is why the conquest or vassalization of the larger nations plays such an important role. A vassal will always vote for the master unless somehow the vassal manages to become a candidate by building the UN.

With all those variables in play, controlling the votes of 50% of the population is the simplest, if least elegant, solution. It does have a brutal beauty of its own, however.The notion of getting the UN into Isabella's hands so she becomes the opponent has a roccoco brilliance to it, but I have seen those kinds of ploys fail before. For instance Isabella couild somehow ingratiate herself with the Mahatma or some other player and come through with enough votes to stalemate the SecGen election or outright win it herself.

Setting out to conquer the 50% of the population necessary to assure the SecGen victory regardelss of who erects the building has the advantage of not bifurcating the research path between the path to Mass Media and the path to a stronger military.

"With all those variables in play, controlling the votes of 50% of the population is the simplest, if least elegant, solution. It does have a brutal beauty of its own, however.The notion of getting the UN into Isabella's hands so she becomes the opponent has a roccoco brilliance to it, but I have seen those kinds of ploys fail before. For instance Isabella couild somehow ingratiate herself with the Mahatma or some other player and come through with enough votes to stalemate the SecGen election or outright win it herself."

Is this RL, or is it Civilization?

Given the voting reliability of vassals, how feasible is it to conquer the three desirable Ottoman cities and then make a vassal out of Mehmed at that point?

This Monarch difficulty game is on a Standard size, Gyathaar-special, fractal map, at Epic speed, against 7 rivals including India. All victory conditions are enabled except Diplomatic, but the laurels for this contest will be awarded to the teams who achieve the fastest Space defeat by Gandhi.

Diplomatic victory is off the table.

Diplomatic victory is off the table but UN resolutions are not, I think :hmm:.

Just did a little Worldbuilder test on another map. Disabled UN and gave the settler knoweldge of Mass Media. No UN building in the building options. Looks like we are chasing a red herring.

The lady from the "Show Me" state stops another snipe hunt. ;)

Diplomatic victory is off the table but UN resolutions are not, I think :hmm:.

Just did a little Worldbuilder test on another map. Disabled UN and gave the settler knoweldge of Mass Media. No UN building in the building options. Looks like we are chasing a red herring.

The lady from the "Show Me" state stops another snipe hunt. ;)
I've PM'ed Gyathaar with the question of whether we can build the UN and use the resolutions.

Should hear soon.

Nice catch.

Good thinking :goodjob:

I checked the Civilopedia and it actually states that Diplomatic victory must be enabled in order to build the UN. Similarly the Space Elevator can't be built if Space Victory is disabled. Probably an easy way for the programmers to prevent the AI from building those wonders under circumstances where they seem to have no purpose.

Anyway this removes any speculations about the UN and increases our need to control the uranium and oil resources. Beeline for artillery and infantry after Combustion is discovered and then attack Hannibal? We allready know where his uranium is (SW of Thaenae and NW of Kerkouane) but we don't know where the other civs might have it - and most important: Does Gandhi have it? Maybe we should trade Railroad for Physics to find out. In the meantime our army can practice a bit with Mehmed. We do the Steel for Free Religion and War with Gandhi deal to break his DP with Hannibal and then attack him. Edirne can be razed to create a buffer zone to spanish culture and then we work our way south. Samsun is crap (raze) and Ankara probably also due to cultural pressure. It's likely though that Mehmed becomes Hannibals vassal at some point and that would end the war.

We have a chance of preventing Hannibal from getting oil by hiring 2 artists in Vienne. The city would then get next border expansion in 6 turns and start competing for cultural control of the oil field. Without oil Hannibal can't build bombers and tanks and it should be possible to take his cities with CR infantry and artillery (to counter machine guns).

Since we expect to be able to deal with Mehmed using our army as it is I think or commerce cities should focus on tech buildings like universities and observatories. We need 3 more universities before we can build Oxford (in Nidaros so that we can hire more scientists). New and Old Sarai should probably keep building military though to get the production bonus. We should remember to check up on Washington often and see if he can be bribed to adopt free religion. He has had a recent revolt so it's not possible right now.

When bribing Mehmed with Steel we should probably gift it to Izzy as well hoping that Gandhi will get it.

What about building The Globe Theatre in Bibracte? Would make that city an almost ideal place to use the whip. Even if we adopt Emancipation it could be handy because Bibracte will grow large soon.

Giving away cities to Gandhi might be a solution at some point but I would really like to see where the uranium is placed first. And where the aluminium is. Ideally we would like to give Gandhi a city with aluminium (if he lacks it) and the Space Elevator.

If nonone comes up with a brilliant idea for avoiding conflict with Gandhi I think we should put some frigates outside all his cities and try not to put them adjacent to any fishing boats. That will at least give us an early warning if he sends some galleons our way.

Heard back from Gyathaar. He suggested we do what Brother Bede was already clever enough to do. :goodjob:

Fredricksberg's post sounds like a reasonable way to proceed to me.

On the Gandhi situation, it seems to me he has consistently landed in pretty close to the same spots. Stationing some Frigates, and later Destroyers, near there to intercept them seems like it might work?

If nonone comes up with a brilliant idea for avoiding conflict with Gandhi I think we should put some frigates outside all his cities and try not to put them adjacent to any fishing boats. That will at least give us an early warning if he sends some galleons our way.

That will work for his cities other than Bombay and Bangalore; however, for those two cities, we will need to completely block egress, as galleons can land units on our continent on same turn before we could intercept them. I am not confident that our mere presence in the straits will intimidate him. Although this will reduce G's commerce, I think it is the lesser of two evils.

As Gator has been absent from the discussions and play is getting more complex, what about the participants providing a to-do list for him?

As Gator has been absent from the discussions and play is getting more complex, what about the participants providing a to-do list for him?

I think this is a good idea not only for this turn set but in general because it's easy to forget something that whas discussed many post's ago. This is actually the reason that I post a to-do list before my own turn sets. That way I can get feedback if I have forgotten or misunderstood something.

What about the length of the turn sets. I think 20 turns is way too many at this point of the game and the quality of play will suffer if we keep turn sets of that length (Unless of course people have a lot of time they can set aside for playing like CP had in the previous set.)

As Gator has been absent from the discussions and play is getting more complex, what about the participants providing a to-do list for him?
I don't think he is ready to play yet, so roster change time:

Roster:
RRAU - UP
Bede - On Deck
Sanabas
Leif
Frederiksberg
Cactus Pete
Gator

A to do list wouldn't hurt at all. It helps to make objectives clear and is a reminder with each turn that I could go back to and refresh my memory. :blush:

We decide what the turn length should be. With the complexity, I would recommend we go with 10 turns unless someone finds a block of time and asks for more. :D

Ten turns will be my limit for the foreseeable future. I might even beg for five.

I know that I can edit my own posts, but is there any way that we can edit each others? I ask because, if so, I'd suggest that Fredieriksburg edit his 10:22AM post into a more concise to-do list, post it, and then we (most importantlly including rrau) could add to it.

Ten turns will be my limit for the foreseeable future. I might even beg for five.
If five is what you have time for, that's fine too. Please just let me know that you've completed your turn set so I can keep track. ;)
I know that I can edit my own posts, but is there any way that we can edit each others? I ask because, if so, I'd suggest that Fredieriksburg edit his 10:22AM post into a more concise to-do list, post it, and then we (most importantlly including rrau) could add to it.
You can only edit your own posts. Using the "Quote" button at the bottom of someone else's post allows you to edit what they write if you wish. You could even remove the Quote= code to remove the box. Or, there is always go old copy and paste.

Here are my suggestions (based on our recent discussions) in a list form:

Tech
Beeline for artillery and infantry after Combustion is discovered. Railroad - Combustion - Rifling - Artillery - Constitution - Assembly Line. Constitution is put late because it obsoletes the Great Lighthouse.

Trade
If possible trade Railroad for Rifling and Constitution (Washington) and Railroad for Physics (Hannibal). Call up Mehmed and do the Steel for Free Religion and War with Gandhi deal to break Mehmeds DP with Hannibal (when we are ready to attack Mehmed). After bribing Mehmed with Steel we should probably gift it to Izzy as well hoping that Gandhi will get it. Remember to check up on Washington often and see if he can be bribed to adopt free religion. If Izzy makes a demand we should try to meet it to improve relations.

War
Prepare for war with Mehmed. Preferably by moving troops in galleons since Izzy might close her borders any time. Speed is more important though so we should try moving by land through Spain also. When the war starts Edirne can be razed to create a buffer zone to spanish culture and then we work our way south. Samsun is crap (raze) and Ankara probably also due to cultural pressure. It's likely though that Mehmed becomes Hannibals vassal at some point and that would end the war. If we can get a tech for peace consider to do so.
Put some frigates outside all of Gandhi's cities and try not to put them adjacent to any fishing boats. That will at least give us an early warning if he sends some galleons our way. The two cities in the strait need to be blocked more thoroughly (can't consider the fishing boats here).

Empire Management
Adjust the culture slider to 0% and increase the tech slider. Hire 2 artists in Vienne to start competing for cultural control of the oil field. Our commerce cities should focus on tech buildings like universities and observatories. We need 3 more universities before we can build Oxford (in Nidaros so that we can hire more scientists). New and Old Sarai should probably keep building military though to get the production bonus. Start building The Globe Theatre in Bibracte when forge is finished and remove the Forbidden Palace from the build list.

Please comment :)

Tech
Beeline for artillery and infantry after Combustion is discovered. Railroad - Combustion - Rifling - Artillery - Constitution - Assembly Line. Constitution is put late because it obsoletes the Great Lighthouse.
We have Constitution, I assume you mean Corporation?

Trade
If possible trade Railroad for Rifling and Constitution (Washington) and Railroad for Physics (Hannibal). Call up Mehmed and do the Steel for Free Religion and War with Gandhi deal to break Mehmeds DP with Hannibal (when we are ready to attack Mehmed). After bribing Mehmed with Steel we should probably gift it to Izzy as well hoping that Gandhi will get it. Remember to check up on Washington often and see if he can be bribed to adopt free religion. If Izzy makes a demand we should try to meet it to improve relations.
:goodjob:

War
Prepare for war with Mehmed. Preferably by moving troops in galleons since Izzy might close her borders any time. Speed is more important though so we should try moving by land through Spain also. When the war starts Edirne can be razed to create a buffer zone to spanish culture and then we work our way south. Samsun is crap (raze) and Ankara probably also due to cultural pressure. It's likely though that Mehmed becomes Hannibals vassal at some point and that would end the war. If we can get a tech for peace consider to do so.
Put some frigates outside all of Gandhi's cities and try not to put them adjacent to any fishing boats. That will at least give us an early warning if he sends some galleons our way. The two cities in the strait need to be blocked more thoroughly (can't consider the fishing boats here).
:goodjob: I think we should also place a fleet of at least 4, and preferably 5 or 6, Frigates or Ironclads to the west southwest of Hittite to intercept whatever comes our way and allow for healing of units.

Empire Management
Adjust the culture slider to 0% and increase the tech slider. Hire 2 artists in Vienne to start competing for cultural control of the oil field. Our commerce cities should focus on tech buildings like universities and observatories. We need 3 more universities before we can build Oxford (in Nidaros so that we can hire more scientists). New and Old Sarai should probably keep building military though to get the production bonus. Start building The Globe Theatre in Bibracte when forge is finished and remove the Forbidden Palace from the build list.
The question is what military units do you think we should build? I think Cannons should have priority, at least at first. Then we should consider replacing the obsolete units, that modernizes the force and allows us not to increase the total size as we disband obsolete units and we won't need to pay for upgrades. We have 21 Grenadiers, do we need any more Berserkers we can upgrade before Rifling takes away our ability to build them??

We have Constitution, I assume you mean Corporation?

:D Yes, this was a little test to see if you are reading my posts ;) .

I think we should also place a fleet of at least 4, and preferably 5 or 6, Frigates or Ironclads to the west southwest of Hittite to intercept whatever comes our way and allow for healing of units.

Sound right to me. We should be prepared to sink any indian vessels coming our way.

The question is what military units do you think we should build? I think Cannons should have priority, at least at first. Then we should consider replacing the obsolete units, that modernizes the force and allows us not to increase the total size as we disband obsolete units and we won't need to pay for upgrades. We have 21 Grenadiers, do we need any more Berserkers we can upgrade before Rifling takes away our ability to build them??

I would say primarily cannons as you suggest. And maybe a few ironclads for defense. Maybe a couple of machine guns for city defense. And of course destroyers when we get Combustion.

I will have no time to contribute until tonight, but a quick read causes me to quickly point out that researching Corporation will obsolete the Great Lighthouse.

See now that this has already been pointed out, but sems inconsistent with recommendation to trade RxR to W for Construction and Rifling.

I will have no time to contribute until tonight, but a quick read causes me to quickly point out that researching Corporation will obsolete the Great Lighthouse.
Yes, but iirc, no Corporation, no Infantry. As Frederiksberg pointed out, we can put it off as long as possible, but we will have to have it. ;)

OK. Got it. Will play tonight, so make any further suggestions before then.

The question is what military units do you think we should build? I think Cannons should have priority, at least at first.

Mehmed has several hill cities that will require cannon sacrifices.

Then we should consider replacing the obsolete units, that modernizes the force and allows us not to increase the total size as we disband obsolete units and we won't need to pay for upgrades.

We have few obsolete units, and we will have use for them as MPs in Ottoman cities, so I would argue against disbanding. (There might be a rare exception.)

We have 21 Grenadiers, do we need any more Berserkers we can upgrade before Rifling takes away our ability to build them??

We would need one more beserker from NS to allow the Great General just north of NS to upgrade four of them to CR3 (with one getting a free upgrade to grenadier or possibly rifleman). The only good alternative that I can think of is to add a military instuctor to OS. Which is the better use of the GG? Though upgrading beserkers with their amphibious ability is great militarily, because we are behind in tech, I don't think we can afford to continue to do much more of that.


Since Mehmed may soon become H’s vassal, we should go after the cities we want to keep first. Certainly Samsun would be the least desirable and furthest away. I note that Ankara has an academy and is not on a hill so that might make it rate as #4 on the list (and possibly a keeper), with Erdine #5.

Not sure we should raze Erdine at the beginning of the war. It is on a hill and will consume multiple units to capture, then we would just raze it. On the other hand, not razing it will slow our progress south . . . but thinking we can use galleons and, after taking Bursa, hug the Ottoman east coast.

We would need one more beserker from NS to allow the Great General just north of NS to upgrade four of them to CR3 (with one getting a free upgrade to grenadier or possibly rifleman). The only good alternative that I can think of is to add a military instuctor to OS. Which is the better use of the GG? Though upgrading beserkers with their amphibious ability is great militarily, because we are behind in tech, I don't think we can afford to continue to do much more of that.

A military instructor in OS would give naval units built there an extra promotion so I guess in the long run this is slightly better compared to getting 4 promotions and a free upgrade. Either way is fine with me - doesn't make that much of a difference. I agree that we need some tech focus for a while and I would rather use gold on upgrading frigates to destroyers than on upgrading more berserkers.

ADDITIONAL SUGGESTIONS:

Send our explorer in Burgundian south to scout the Ottoman cities

Get a unit into Tolosa (within two turns) and Vienne (when convenient) as MPs.

Build three longbows somewhere on the continent to replace the experienced grenadiers doing MP duty in Gergovia and Durnovaria and (in two turns) Tolosa (so they can be freed for combat duty) – three cities that are not on our borders and don’t need powerful defensive units. We should eventually use destroyers for defense if we need it.

We have 7 galleons near Ning-hsia. Keep one off our west coast for use as needed. Put 2 cannons and the four beserkers (after they are upgraded) now north of NS into two of them and sail them along the southern ice field to help in the attack. To facilitate this, immediately move 4 galleons (in two pairs) as a two-step chain along that route to speed progress. Having completed their roles (and assuming we maintain open borders with Washington, which seems likely) sail four of the galleons back toward Ning-hsia for eventual upgrading to transports and use in the inevitable Carthaginian conflict.

After the ironclad in NS and the dry dock in Nidaros are completed, would suggest building frigates to cross sea and help 2 frigates already there to protect galleons and bombard Mehmed’s western cities.

QUERY:

Does rrau wait until our units are healed and moved into position before making the trade with Mehmed (and Izzie), or do we need to do it right away while we are sure he needs Steel?

REMINDERS:

Settler in Samarqand is intended for the hill east of OS, as per leif’s suggestion

I’ve been herding an Indian frigate (which looks just like ours) down our east coast toward an ironclad for elimination. Hope that can be followed through on.

Whoever plays next will need to be patient the first turn, because there are a great many units to determine what, if anything, to do with (now that the war is over), depending on the course(s) of action settled on; moreover, cities will need to be managed (presumably with science in mind) when they come out of the anarchy.

Guys, I don't think I'm going to be able to do the turns. I keep getting:

That stinks!! :cry:

Did you get any turns in?

Did you update the driver recently and, if so, can you revert back to a driver that worked? :hmm:

I wish I could help you???? :cringe:

I think CP claimed to be a playing Warlords at monarch level when this SGOTM started. Must have improved since then: WOTM7 Results (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=219520). :D

Too bad with rrau's computer.

Sorry RRAU, guess we need to move along then? :(

Updated Roster:
Bede - UP
Sanabas - On Deck
Leif
Frederiksberg
Cactus Pete
Gator
RRAU - :badcomp:

I gots it, the precious.

Reviewing the thread Fred's summary looks like a plan.

Here's an update at five turns in:

Feeding technology to Gandhi through Isabella seems to work as he is starting to catch up based on what has been given her so I will keep it up. The big issue seems to be his shortage of Industrial resources.

Mehmed, Hannibal and Washington are having a little tech feast, so the only bribe left for a war declaration from Mehmed is Railroad. Using it as bait means we will face Machine Guns as his defenders, if he has any upgradeable grenadiers or the money to do it, when the war with Mehmed starts - costly with only Grenadiers and cannon in the city assault forces. Use it anyway?

Isabella is being a witch as she closed the borders on the interturn and cancelled all the trade deals.

Gandhi is trying to rip our navy a new one again in the straits and along the east coast. Need to get more ironclads in those waters. No sign of a build up to an invasion though.

Finish up tomorrow and will pass along a war with Mehmed if all concur that we continue with the effort to break up the other bloc.

Mehmed, Hannibal and Washington are having a little tech feast, so the only bribe left for a war declaration from Mehmed is Railroad. Using it as bait means we will face Machine Guns as his defenders, if he has any upgradeable grenadiers or the money to do it, when the war with Mehmed starts - costly with only Grenadiers and cannon in the city assault forces. Use it anyway?

I think we have to break up that block. I'm not sure I see much choice? :rolleyes:

I see no reason to make the trade until we are in position to attack (and hopefully take at least one city before M can start cranking out machine guns).

If you trade Railroad at the last moment before we are ready to attack he has no time to get many machine guns. We can probably take a city with an amphibious attack in the same turn we declare. From the discussion before our attack on Bibracte you can see how it can be done. Don't forget to trade Railroad to Washington and Hannibal as well for some of the techs we are missing (Rifling and Physics would be my preferred choices). Regarding our naval war with Gandhi we should soon know combustion and thus have destroyers. That would help us a lot. I'm not a big fan of Ironclads because they are limited to coastal waters and water tiles within cultural borders.

It's very nice that techs are finding their way to Gandhi through Izzy. We should take care to feed her only techs that Gandhi needs and only when he has some techs he can trade back to Izzy. The last thing we want is that Izzy becomes more advanced than Gandhi because it will end the need for her to trade with him.

If Railroad gets discovered and traded around, our scheme is dead as Combustion needs to be held for as long as possible. :hmm:

Good luck Brother Bede. :cheers:

If Railroad gets discovered and traded around, our scheme is dead as Combustion needs to be held for as long as possible. :hmm:


Yes, I know. Since we have to trade Railroad to Mehmed anyway I think we might as well trade it to everyone and get some techs out of it before the Confucian block has another trade feast.

Yes, I know. Since we have to trade Railroad to Mehmed anyway I think we might as well trade it to everyone and get some techs out of it before the Confucian block has another trade feast.
Yes, I agree with this. It wasn't my concern. I'm more worried about how long it will take to set up for an attack before we do the :deal:

Ah - now I understand what you are getting at. It's sometimes possible to get an idea of how close other civs are to a given tech by checking how much they will offer in return in a deal. If this suddenly drops you can be certain that they are close to getting the tech through own research.

All noted. The war with Mehmed may go off half-cocked as the frigates to provide the sea barrage are not in position and a long way off from being there and a lot of them are tied to picket duty on fishing nets until they can be replaced by ironclads or I can get 'clads built to provide coastal defense bombardment and free up the frigates to provide troop transport cover. 'Course by the time all that is done we will have destroyers at sea anyway.

I do have active scouting going on around Mehmed's coasts just to see what he is up to.

War with Mehmed and control of the seas (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4//Xteam_SG004_AD1670_01.CivWarlordsSave)

(I took a full twenty as I wanted to get the war with Mehmed well underway)

I was greeted by this sourpuss

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/SGOTM4/Civ4ScreenShot0003-1.jpg

who also canceled the OB agreement. Witch!

And then Gandhi played hob with the picket fleet

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/SGOTM4/Civ4ScreenShot0006.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/SGOTM4/Civ4ScreenShot0007.jpg

Yours is coming, Mahatma!

When Railroad came in the best I could do was this.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/SGOTM4/Civ4ScreenShot0008.jpg

Washington already had it and Mehmed had Steel so I went ahead with the Railroad for war and Free Religion backstab

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/SGOTM4/Civ4ScreenShot0010.jpg

but delayed starting the war with Mehmed because this fleet appeared en route to our continent.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/SGOTM4/Civ4ScreenShot0012.jpg

Crafty poofter must have been waiting for something like this because it didn't take long for him to get organised for invasion. Since I wanted him to commit those forces to India before declaring I shadowed the boats until he landed the troops at Bangalore. I did keep dailing him up and relieving him of his spare change. Seems he had no grenadiers to upgrade, anyway, and no money to buy any, either.

Every chance I got I buttered up Isabella, she still doesn't like us very much.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/SGOTM4/Civ4ScreenShot0018.jpg

Once Mehmed had committed his troops at Bangalore I launched the attack on Erdrine

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/SGOTM4/Civ4ScreenShot0019.jpg

Changed the tactics a little as there were not eough frigates to provide covering fire. Kept the most heavily promoted amphib troops on the boats and landed the cannon and a machine gun along with some ground pounding grenadiers outside the town. Mehmed burned all his seige engines without much effect on the landing force and once the cannon had done the job on the defenses the amphib grenadiers struck and took the town with no casualties

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/SGOTM4/Civ4ScreenShot0020.jpg

Burned and returned to the ships with the plunder. No further sign of Mehmed's army.

The fleet then sailed down the coast to await the arriving destroyers that had been cleaning up Mehmed's fleet in the open ocean to the NW.

Newly upgraded ships swept Gandhi from the straits

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/SGOTM4/Civ4ScreenShot0023.jpg

You will note no sign of Mehmed's landing force and the Great General residing in Bangalore

and the coast in the west and the south, but not before he made a small landing in the north

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/SGOTM4/Civ4ScreenShot0022.jpg

The longbow did not last very long against the cavalry and two slaves were captured.

On the domestic front I built an town on the desert oil to the east, got the railnet started and the most productive mines railed.

Vienne expanded to capture the American oil

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/SGOTM4/Civ4ScreenShot0021.jpg

Out Great Person turned out to be an Artist

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/SGOTM4/Civ4ScreenShot0024.jpg

He can lightbulb us toward Democracy or be hsipped overseas to pacify Ottomans. As the Emancipation anger is growing by leaps and bounds we may want to use him on Democracy as it is doubtful any trades for it will come up anytime soon.

The science wallahs are carrying us toward Assembly Line once the fleet was upgraded to destroyer level but I am keeping enough cash flow in reserve to upgrade galleons to transports as the troops to fill them are available.

Other than some Homeland Defense forces, mostly cavalry and some static defense (Machine Gunners with Combat 1 and Medic promotions) little trrop training was done as the cities are working on their Univeristies. The last needed for Oxford should finish on the IT.

The Ironworks is there for the building and would make a fine addition to our Celtic or Ottoman holdings (once we get some).

The Vikings are doing just fine, the Indians not so well. Gandhi lacks both critical resources and trading partners. Moving our empire to the east would be painful as we have done a fine job of developing the homeland so we must make all deliberate speed towards an ultimate goal of removing Hannibal from the planet so Gandhi has a place to go. Now that we have destroyers Gandhi's navy is unlikely to venture to the southeast, though he can still cross the strait in the north with a small landing force as it is a single move from Bangalore. Load and drop on the second turn and scurry back into port.

Preserve the CR promoted amphibs as much as you can. Getting them upgraded to Infantry will be huge as we move around the horn to Hannibal's lands.

Updated Roster:
Sanabas - UP
Leif - on deck
Frederiksberg
Cactus Pete
Gator
RRAU - hurting for a computer
Bede - just finished all the damage he could do in twenty turns.

Interesting turn set. Game has certainly moved along. Wish I had time to examine the save right now.

Pleased we got the oil for Vienne. I've never tried anything like that.

We can always research Democracy, but there is no other way to produce a culture bomb other than by an artist, so that usage should be given serious consideration.

Bede, do you have any sense of what damage Mehmed has inflicted on Gandhi?

:salute: Nice work Old Warhorse! :rockon:

Thanks for the roster as well. Haven't heard from Sanabas in some time so we'll wait 24 hours to change anything.

Washington appears to have Combustion. Hannibal isn't trading for it either so he must be very close to getting it?

Before we can think about taking on Hannibal, I think we need to have Infantry and Artillery. At the same time, we really need Democracy and Emancipation. Some of our core cities have 6 to 8 unhappiness because they are protesting for Emancipation. (cry babies!) The mid-sized cities are at -4 and climbing. That has to be costing us in research time.

The Great Artist will provide 2256 beakers towards Democracy, speeding it up by about 3 turns, 4 instead of 7. Seems like he would better be used as a culture bomb? I was thinking about Uppsala but it won't do any good there.

I think we should consider changing to Democracy, back to Assembly Line, then Physics and Artillery. I was thinking of Biology, but Hannibal has it and the trading environment seems to be getting less friendly.

Got to go, will look more later when I have time. :rolleyes:

Had a very brief look at the save.

Very nice to see that we have already claimed the oil near Vienne. This is probably the key to depriving Hannibal of oil. Washington now has only one oil resource on land and Izzy is not on good terms with Hannibal so she is not likely to trade her excess oil. Without oil Hannibal can't build any strong armored units or airborn units and we should be able to take him on with infantry and artillery. Only problem is if he gets battleships before we do.

Emancipation unhappyness is currently responsible for 6 angry citizens in total and we should think about researching Democracy soon as Leif suggests. Wether we should use our GA for bulbing this is not clear though. He migth come in handy to expand culture in one of our captured Ottoman cities. When war is over we might have a captured city that is suffering from heavy cultural pressure and that could be handled with the GA.

I think Bibracte could benefit from some MM'ing. I'd like to fire the specialists and start working the grassland towns in order to increase growth. We have a considerable number of units that are stranded in one of our Celtic cities. A couple of transports or galleons could fetch them and bring them to the battlefield.

Isabella is such a freak I wanted to have troopers on hand to keep her from getting shirty. Hence the stranded troops. Now that some of the Celtic towns can pick up the burden of training garrison troops they can should be moved. Once Istanbul falls we can upgrade a couple of galleons and go pick them up.

As I think on it keeping the GA around to bust out a newly captured town, especially one of those nicely developed Ottoman ones, while we research Democracy seems the best plan. I don't mind unhappy faces as much as land I can't work because the borders won't blow out and the city is resisting.

Isabella is such a freak I wanted to have troopers on hand to keep her from getting shirty. Hence the stranded troops. Now that some of the Celtic towns can pick up the burden of training garrison troops they can should be moved. Once Istanbul falls we can upgrade a couple of galleons and go pick them up.

Ah, yes - but wouldn't our lead in power make her think twice before attacking us? I think I would have gambled on that and sent all available grenadiers and cannons towards Mehmed's cities. Anyway there is still plenty of time to get them involved in the battle, I think.

Well, I finally have found time to look at the save, and I don't have much to add to the above comments.

I agree that we need Democracy and Emancipation . . . would add that we should look at each city to decide if it would be effective to use slavery one last time there. If so, in some cases better sooner than later, since, with Emancipation, there may no longer be unhappy citizens there. Rushing a transport in Verlamion strikes me as one good parting use.

Ottoman frigate and galleon near Tartar concern me a bit. There is an ironclad down our east coast that could be upgraded (and all our ironclads should eventually be upgrade, as they lack both power and flexibility).

Thinking GA might eventually be helpful in Ankara.

Would the Hermitage be helpful in holding onto the oil?

When we go after Hannibal, we are going to have to keep an eye on the 64% land domination requirement.

Does Bede have any recent information on what is defending the Ottoman cities? Without that, it's difficult to know when and how to attack. Attacking sooner than later is usually a good idea, but not when at a significant tactical disadvantage.

Why aren't the workers SW of Nidaros building railroads or drilling a well north of Birka?

Quoth CP: "Why aren't the workers SW of Nidaros building railroads or drilling a well north of Birka?"

Looks like they are cooping, and they probably are. Oops. I thought I had gathered up all the workers before sending them out to drive spikes, but those dudes escaped my notice.

Roster change:
Leif - UP
Frederiksberg - On Deck
Cactus Pete
Gator
RRAU
Bede
Sanabas

I hope to play tomorrow night.

A To-Do list would look something like:
1. Press the attack in Ottoman territory.
2. Change research to Democracy and change to Emancipation civic. Then back to Assembly Line, Physics and Artillery; although I will only see Democracy and a little more on Assembly Line.
3. Great Artist heading for Ankara? I thought we were thinking about razing it? With the Great Artist it is a keeper then, while Samsun can go. SHould we leave Samsun with Mehmed if we can get a tech for peace and wait 10 turns to destroy him?
4. I think Hermatige in Vienne is a good idea.
5. There is a Transport and five Galleons in Old Sarai. We can send some to Verlamion to fetch the troops. Checked and it will almost be as many turns to pop-rush one there as 5 citizens are required atm, only 4 available.
6. I see the Ottoman Frigate and Galleon near Tartar. Hope they landed the troops that Gandhi already dealt with? What do you think Brother Bede?
7. Agree we should encourage Bibracte to grow, and get some income there as well. This will be even more effective when Globe Theater completes and/or we get Emancipation.
8. I went through the cities and:
Vienne is a pop-rush possibility for a Forge as we set up for Hermitage.
Gergovia is a possibility, rushing the Harbor.
Verlamion rushing a Library.
Tartar could rush a Courthouse.

Other additions?

It is probably safe to move unescorted transports across to Verlamion. I would not send a galleon, though.

The Ottoman ships up by Tartar are the remnants of the fleet that delivered the landing in India. They must have been hiding in the fog as I picked off the ones that showed in our waters before sending the destroyer fleet SE to the seige of Istanbul.

Istanbul is reasonably well defended but our assault force is at least 2x the curretn defenses. With destroyer support you can reprise the Bibracte tactics. I have been working the defenses down while waiting for the troops to get healthy and for destroyer support.

Couple of thoughts:

A tech for peace would be nice.

I believe Ankara has an academy and that would make the GA even better spent. How soon can you get him there?

If Istanbul would cost severe casualties and/or lengthy delay of the attack, consider taking Ankara first, as it should be less well defended and not on a hill.

Regarding pop rushing . . . We have not built the Forbidden Palace, and Ottoman territory would seem optimal. If we use the GA in Ankara before we go to Emancipation, that might be the place to get it up and running quickly.

Thanks Bede, that eases worries a bit. :D

I have been looking at this a couple of ways. I think my greatest fear is that Mehmed will become a Vassal of Hannibal. That would stop our war immediately as we are not ready to take on Hannibal atm.

I think the goal is to take four of Mehmed's cities; Ankara (and use the GA there), Konya, Istanbul and Bursa. If we can leave Samsun for now and get a tech for peace, that would be ideal.

In order to meet the goal, I think I need to take Istanbul and, while the troops are healing, bring whatever we can over from Old Sarai, including lift capacity for the other troops in Verlamion, and then plan to attempt to take the other three cities and try to make peace on the same turn. With no inter-turn, he can't become a Vassal. Never tried to pull something like this off before, so it will be interesting to see if it can be done?

CP - In order to build the Forbidden Palace, there must be a Courthouse in the city. Also, at 300 Hammers, it require 13 pop to rush immediately and I think it will take some time before enough Hammers are accumulated to pop-rush it with only 5 available citizens (Ankara's pop is 11 atm.). Would be nice to do but I hope we have Democracy before then?

I'll run a Destroyer around for a quick recon before I do anything rash... :mischief:

Sounds like a sound plan.

"CP - In order to build the Forbidden Palace, there must be a Courthouse in the city. Also, at 300 Hammers, it require 13 pop to rush immediately and I think it will take some time before enough Hammers are accumulated to pop-rush it with only 5 available citizens (Ankara's pop is 11 atm.). Would be nice to do but I hope we have Democracy before then?"

Okay, obviously no credibility to that plan. Forbidden Palace should be on our intermediate to-do list.

Forbidden Palace should be on our intermediate to-do list.
Yup! :yup: I hope to see what Ankara looks like soon and, perhaps, we'll get a Great Engineer? :D

I'm going to be out of town the next week.

Time for a team consultation.

We've got problems as Mehmed has just discovered Artillery and has upgraded some of his attacking units. :eek:

Here is the log thus far:
Turn 360 – 1670AD
Pre-flight.
Use a destroyer to take a look at Istanbul. Five Rifles and two Cannons defending and there is 45% cultural defense. Take a screenie.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM04/1670AD_Istanbul_Defenses.jpg

Change research to Democracy, due in 7 turns.
Wake workers SW of Nidaros and start railing towards Old Sarai.
Wake Transport in Old Sarai and send him towards Verlamion.
MM Bibracte by putting the Merchants to work.
Pop-rush a Courthouse in Tartar for 3 citizens and a Library in Verlamion for 2 citizens.
Press enter.

IBT
The Ottoman Frigate and Galleon go strolling by Tartar.
Tartar Courthouse => Grocer.
Verlamion Library => Theater.

Turn 361 – 1673 AD
Battle of Istanbul.
Reduce Istanbul to 15% cultural defense using 3 Destroyers and a Frigate.
A Cannon attacks to soften things up a bit.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM04/1673AD_Istanbul_After_Cannon.jpg

Grenadier attacks at 97% and kills a Rifle.
Grenadier attacks at 87% and kills a Rifle.
Grenadier attacks at 95% and kills a Cannon.
Grenadier attacks at 78% and dies to a Rifle.
Grenadier attacks at 99% and kills a Cannon.
Grenadier attacks at 79% and kills a Rifle.
Grenadier attacks at 79% and kills a Rifle.
Grenadier attacks at 99.9% and kills the last Rifle, Istanbul is ours.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM04/1673AD_Istanbul_Capture.jpg

Start Culture.
Move the Galleons into Istanbul and unload them all.

Just reconned Konya and there are 6 Rifles, 4 Cannon and 4 Grenadiers there. Here comes a counter? Screenshot did not capture troop list, so no need to post it…

Upgrade a Galleon to a Transport in Old Sarai.

Take a deep breath and hold it, then press enter

IBT
Mehmed counterattacks.
4 Cannons attack and he kills our Machine Gun and loses one Cannon while we lose a Grenadier.
Additionally, we lose three Grenadiers and a Cannon while he loses a 2 Grenadiers and a Rifle.

Nidaros Grenadier => Oxford University.
Copper Mountian Drydock => Destroyer.
Mehmed gets a Great General and so do we, in Nidaros.

Turn 362 – 1676 AD

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM04/1676AD_Our_Defense.jpg

A difficult decision. Mehmed has three Cannon and, while weak, they can still cause us damage before his assault.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM04/1676AD_Mehmed_Forces.jpg

Decide to try a Cannon and see what damage we do. That stunk as we hurt his full strength Grenadier unit but nothing else?

Load a Machine Gun on a Transport in Old Sarai and send it directly to Istanbul.
Load a Cannon and 3 Grenadiers onto a Transport at Verlamion.

Sink an Ottoman Frigate near Konya.

Here we go again:

IBT
Mehmed counters again but loses 2 Grenadiers and a Rifle with no loss to us.
New Sarai Grenadier => Grenadier.
Karakorum Cannon => Cannon.
Birka Cannon -> Cannon.
Gandhi gets a Great Scientist while Mehmed gets a Great Artist.

Turn 363 – 1679 AD
We’ve got problems, Mehmed now has Artillery and has upgraded his Cannons near Istanbul? YIKES!!

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM04/1679AD_Mehmed_Artillery.jpg

Our Defenses:

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM04/1679AD_Our_Forces_Istanbul.jpg

Decide to stop, save and consult team.

Should we fight on or evacuate Istanbul? :scan:

The nearest reinforcements are 3 turns away. Three Grenadiers and a Cannon from Verlamion and a Transport with a Machine Gun from Old Sarai.

Run a destroyer down the coast and see what Mehmed has in reserve, then if he seems fully committed at Istanbul, sting the assault force with the remaining cannon then hit them with the grenadiers. The attackers are pretty weak now and you should be able to break his back.

I don't think that the cannon will effect any unit other than the rifleman, so I'm not enthusuastic about Bede's tactic.

I certainly do agree that more information about M's reserves would be extremely useful. Sometimes it is better to live to fight another day, but it's unclear whether that is true here. What else can you tell us?

Some thoughts:

If M has no more artillery than is visible, then once they are eliminated, you can upgrade to a machine gun or two and be in good shape to hold the city.

You have several units that might get a promotion if they win a close battle. With a promotion (perhaps a city defender or red cross one) comes 50% healing, which together should make the unit quite useful on defense. So don't use those units until they have a reasonable chance (but not a high probability) for victory. If you decide to attack, use (sacrifice) the two 12/17 units initially.

Attacking first will prevent further collateral damage. It is not clear if you have any fortification bonuses built up. If not, then certainly attack seems better than defense (retreat is another matter), as it would allow you to eliminate the artillery before it weakens us further.

If M does not have reinforcements available, then he may well reteat, and we will have to deal with those healed units later if we don't take them out now.

Have you kept galleons nearby to facilitate a retreat or have you sent them to meet our reinforcements and speed them on their way and to pick up more at Verlamion and chain-transport them to Istanbul should we be able to hold it?

Forgot to mention that we are in desperate need of a healing (red cross) promoted unit.

I certainly do agree that more information about M's reserves would be extremely useful. Sometimes it is better to live to fight another day, but it's unclear whether that is true here. What else can you tell us?
There is a Destroyer available to run south to check for additional units. My sense is that we won't find much as nothing has moved into or out of Konya since the initial move. He has three Rifles in Konya and one is guarding a resource nearby.

The Destroyer on a recon and unless significant forces are found, we duke it out.

You have several units that might get a promotion if they win a close battle. With a promotion (perhaps a city defender one) comes 50% healing, which together should make the unit quite useful on defense. So don't use those units until they have a reasonable chance (but not a high probability) for victory. If you decide to attack, use (sacrifice) the two 12/17 units initially.
This is what saved us last turn. One Grenadier was promotable and he promoted to City Defense. Two units died trying to take him out. I found it rather interesting to read his list of skills and have all offensive promotions except the one for city defense. ;)

Attacking first will prevent further collateral damage. It is not clear if you have any fortification bonuses built up. If not, then certainly attack seems better than defense (retreat is another matter), as it would allow you to eliminate the artillery before it weakens us further.
I am in the third turn so there are is much of a fortification bonus, 5% at best.
This is the question for me. To risk losing a significant portion of the Army to eliminate those Artillery versus the wisdom of living to fight another day?

Have you kept galleons nearby to facilitate a retreat or have you sent them to meet our reinforcements and speed them on their way and to pick up more at Verlamion and chain-transport them to Istanbul should we be able to hold it?
Yes, the Galleons that landed the force are adjacent to Istanbul. Reinforcements are coming via Transports from Old Sarai via Verlamion. To get a ship chain set up would require more turns than I had and the use of all the Destroyers in the area. I was trying to bombard Konya to make the AI defend there. Not sure how it worked out but he is keeping enough Rifles there to allow us to survive.

EDIT - Forgot to mention that it was our two Red Cross promoted units that ended up as fodder. I didn't use them in the attack so they were full strength and defended when he attacked.

By the way, Machine Guns don't stand up to bombard units very well... :mischief:

As the decision is important, here is the save where we are now:

"I found it rather interesting to read his list of skills and have all offensive promotions except the one for city defense."

Indeed, and for us the best defense may be offense, at least against cities. So, even if you hold Istanbul and fear M's artillery, it may still be best to go after another coastal city ASAP -- that is, after a little healing.

My experience is that by using a naval unit to bombard a city, it causes the AI to keep, or even move, land units (however illogical that may be) to protect the city, so I suggest adding bombardment (and leaving the bombarder anchored in the harbor) to your scouting mission.

"This is the question for me. To risk losing a significant portion of the Army to eliminate those Artillery versus the wisdom of living to fight another day?"

Absolutely . . . that is the question, and even if you choose to attack this turn (which I would favor if you are resaonably sure that M can't wipe out most of our forces in Istanbul the very next turn) it may be a question you will face again next turn, should heavy reinforcements show up outside the city. Should that happen, you may be able to load all units aboard ship, let M re-take the city, and then soon utilize your amphibious city raiders to re-re-take it.

BTW, if you defend without attacking, I think at least some of the artillery will heal before hitting us again, and that would not be good.

The choice is whether to attack or abandon. Defending seems a bad third option.

I will check in during the morning to get reports from the battlefield.

Absolutely . . . that is the question, and even if you choose to attack this turn (which I would favor if you are resaonably sure that M can't wipe out most of our forces in Istanbul the very next turn) it may be a question you will face again next turn, should heavy reinforcements show up outside the city. Should that happen, you may be able to load all units aboard ship, let M re-take the city, and then soon utilize your amphibious city raiders to re-re-take it.
The units in Istanbul are our cream of the crop, the units we hope to upgrade to Infantry to attack Hannibal with. To lose them will be a significant loss. That is why I decided to stop and ask the team.

I will check in during the morning to get reports from the battlefield.
Sorry, got to work today. No reports until this evening... :rolleyes:

Dispatch from the Istanbul area.

The recon report of Ankara showed 3 Rifles located there, so we decided to fight.

We have destroyed the Artillery stack near Istanbul at the loss of 3 Grenadiers.

The log of the action:
Consulted with Team. Reload game and relook the situation.
Send a Destroyer down to visit Ankara, finds 3 Rifles and no Seige units.
This is good news and makes me want to try and hold on in Istanbul.
The Destroyer bombards Ankara.
Konya is bombarded by a Destroyer.
Checking out the odds, no matter which attacker we choose, the odds are 20% or less, so we’ll lose the first Grenadier as we will face the 14/18 Artillery, not the Rifle. Our 12/17 Grenadiers have Pinch, so I want to save them for the Rifle. OK, let’s try an attack and see if it gets us anywhere?
A 9.1/12 Grenadier attacks a 14/18 Artillery at 20% Combat Odds and we die leaving the Artillery at 7.9/18.
A 7.2/12 Grenadier attacks a 14/14 Rifle at 32.7% Combat Odds and dies, bringing the Rifle to 7.8/14.
A 8.2/12 Grenadier attacks a 7.9/18 Artillery at 71.4% Combat Odds and dies, Artillery now at 1.4/18.
A 7.9/12 Grenadier attacks a 7.8/14 Rifle at 95.1% Combat Odds and kills him without loss.
A 7.8/12 Grenadier attacks a 2.9/18 Artillery at 99+% Combat Odds and kills him without loss.
A 6.1/12 Grenadier attacks a 2.9/18 Artillery at 97.8% Combat Odds and kills him, now 3.8/12.
I really don’t want to leave a wounded Grenadier out of the city to a counterattack, so I decide to use the remaining Cannon, which I can easily replace, to make the attack.
A 4.8/12 Cannon attacks a 1.4/18 Artillery at 90.4% Combat Odds and kills him without loss. Now he is a sitting duck if Mehmed decides to attack him.

We should be fine unless something shows up from Bursa.
Continuing with the game after cleaning up my soiled britches... :mischief:
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Another counterattack and a new Artillery unit shows up. We have four Grenadiers left in Istanbul. Sign a Cease Fire agreement with Mehmed to try for some reinforcement and healing time.

Sorry to keep coming back and asking. :rolleyes:

I'm at the start of the fifth turn. During the last inter-turn, Mehmed agreed to become Hannibal's Vassal. Even worse, Hannibal declared war on Gandhi. If he gets onto Gandhi's territory with Infantry and Artillery, I don't think it will be pretty. :cringe:

Hannibal does not have Combustion, so we still have the Naval advantage. The only counter I can see is to try to protect Gandhi by sinking all Carthaginian or Ottoman Vessels before they can reach Gandhi's shores.

I think this means giving up Istanbul and preparing to hold our area north of Izzy and our own borders, taking the Carthaginian City near Old Sarai. We'll then need to hang on until we have Artillery and Infantry, which is going to take some time.

EDIT - Add the log entries to this point:
IBT
Mehmed counterattacks again. An Artillery unit shows but doesn’t attack. We lose a Grenadier to an Ottoman Grenadier and he loses a Rifle to one of our Grenadiers.
The Grenadier Mehmed attacked with was not injured in the combat. :rolleyes:
Uppsala Drydock => Destroyer.
Turfan Bank => Machine Gun.

Turn 364 – 1682 AD
Mehmed will talk. He wants capitulation by us for peace, I don’t think so!
I decide to sign a Cease Fire agreement with him to give our units a chance to heal and provide time for reinforcement.

IBT
Mehmed’s units disappear from the area around Istanbul.
Beshbalik Harbor => Bank.
Ning-hsia Destroyer => Destroyer.
Now we have more problems.
Mehmed has become a Vassal of Hannibal and Hannibal has declared on Gandhi.

Turn 365 – 1685 AD
Decide to save game and post for further team discussion. This is getting complicated.


I've saved the game and attached that save below:

Looks like the best option is setting up a picket line around India with the destroyer fleet and see what develops. If Hannibal has any boats in the strait then sink them first and ask questions later. If none appear reinforce the troops at Istanbul and go from there. It is unlikely Mehmed will send any ships on an end around from Bursa towards Bangalore, but it is possible, so keeping an eye on those northern waters is important.

Duen right it is getting complicated.

Sorry, I just don't have time to look at the save, but I do have a couple of quick thoughts:

Why give up Istanbul so easily? Could we not use the GA to make it a viable city? Can't we at least wait until it comes out of anarchy or we have to fight.

If we plan on defending Gandhi by going to war against the alliance, then a renewed attack on the remaining Ottoman cities at that time might deflect some forces away from India (and, if successful, even add some gold to our treasury for upgrading and research). I guess the question is whether M will have such a tactical advantage that he will end up the attacker and re-take Istanbul. How likely is that?

What sort of naval units disappeared? What do you know about M's navy? How about building a caravel(s) for scouting?

If we hold on in Ottoman territory, it will require that we maintain a fleet in several oceans. To know how feasible that is, we need intelligence on H's navy, let's try and get some while peace prevails.

As an intercontinental attacker, H will have to build troop carriers and their escorts (not to mention land units), while we will only need frigates and destroyers (and we have more productive cities). This might turn out to be a means of weakening H by sinking infantry- and artillery-filled ships until he becomes an isolationist and we can then catch up in military tech.

Looks like the best option is setting up a picket line around India with the destroyer fleet and see what develops. If Hannibal has any boats in the strait then sink them first and ask questions later

Yes, and if they like to talk they can talk with The German Coastguard (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrYRY6kx550) - or maybe they prefer the fish?

Had a look at the save. First thing I notice is that we can decrease the culture slider to 10% and increase the science slider to 50% to get Democracy in one turn. When we do the revolt I think we should seriously consider doing a multiple civic revolt to save time. One possibility is to revolt to Police State, Emancipation and Nationhood. The last one is with the idea of using drafting heavily in Bibracte when the Globe is done (Can be whipped now). Since there can be no unhappyness in the city with the Globe Theatre we can in principle draft rifles and infantry as fast as the city can regrow the pop and that is in about 2 turns if it's allowed to use all food resources including the fish that is shared with Isca (Probably even less if we draft 3 at a time and then wait for the 3 pop to regrow thus making use of the Granary). In comparison our Heroic Epic city needs 4.5 turns to produce infantry! Nationhood would also allow us to draft defenders in Istanbul - if we decide not to keep it we could simply draft every single citizen and then leave the city. An alternative to Nationhood is Vassalage or we could stay in Bureaucracy. I predict a long, tough war so I think we might as well adopt Police State immediately thus saving some turns of anarchy and getting the 25% military unit production bonus sooner.

We have a Great General and I think he should build a Military Academy in Old Sarai. We have a drydock and a military instructor there so maybe we should reserve this city for building 6XP ships?

I agree with the others that we need some scouting of Hannibals cities in the immediate future. Maybe move some of our destroyers up near Kolhapur so that we are ready to sink any Carthaginian ships that come by. Would be nice though to postpone war declaration until we have reinforced Istanbul with machine guns and rifles or infantry and are ready to continue our Ottoman offensive.

In a slightly longer perspective we should think about pillaging Hannibals uranium to prevent him from building battleships and destroyers. Unfortunately he seems to have uranium in 3 places: SW of Thaenae, NW of Kerkouane and S2E of Sicca. And another odd looking mine is 2SE of Hippo.

We shouldn't forget about trying to persuade Washington to adopt free religion. It's not possible right now, but the chance could come back. It would be nice to break up the Confucian block this way.

Thank you for the quick replies. Good discussion and some interesting ideas.

@Frederiksberg - :lol: :lol: :lol: German Coast Guard!!!

First, let's take up Istanbul. I'm not sure what will happen when it comes out of resistance and how much cultural space we'll gain. I suspect we're not going to get much as both Bursa and Konya are only 3 tiles away and are mature cities. I am not opposed to making a stand in Istanbul, as we have lost a number of units trying to keep it thus far. The question is how much of a bleeding ulcer will it become. It is easily attacked because it is two moves from two cities. A determined Artillery attack will eliminate the garrison and, even if we survive that, it may very easily culturally flip. Our troops are quite strong in offense but not designed to be defenders. My thoughts for reinforcements was actually to by pass Istanbul and attack Konya from the sea, which we can still do. I also like the idea of Nationhood and drafting units in Istanbul for its defense, freeing our best troops for attacks elsewhere.

Meanwhile, I think we have to be concerned with getting a force built up which can, at first, resist Hannibal and eventually defeat him. For starters, I agree that we need to get a fleet of Destroyers headed for Carthage and develop raiding parties that can disconnect resources.

We also need to get rid of the Carthaginian city on our continent before Artillery shows up there.

I think we should keep it peaceful for the time being and focus on getting Destroyers around Hannibal's cities, checking things out. This will also give us time to evaluate how things may turn out at Istanbul. War only it we feel there is an imminent danger to Gandhi, which may be in the city near Ning-hsia?

I like Frederiksberg proposal for Police State, Nationhood and Emancipation, Don't know how many turns we'll be in transition though. Too bad we don't have Communism so we can go with State Property as well.

We're at -3 with Izzy, would be nice to find a way to improve that. We're at +6 with Washington but he is at +10 with Hannibal. It would be nice to get them fighting? As Fredericksberg said, it would be nice to get Washington on Free Religion...

Got to go to work again. I'll be thinking about this and check back to see what else you might be thinking... :mischief:

I like Frederiksberg proposal for Police State, Nationhood and Emancipation, Don't know how many turns we'll be in transition though. Too bad we don't have Communism so we can go with State Property as well.


Revolting to Emancipation alone takes 3 turns and doing the tripple revolt to Emancipation, Police State and Nationhood takes only one turn extra (4 turns).

Before doing the revolt we should check if we need to do any last minute whipping anywhere - primarily in hammer poor cities. Whipping the Globe Theater is a must if we opt for Nationhood because reducing the size of the city will actually make it an even stronger drafting machine because a smaller city grows faster! (It shouldn't go below pop 4 though because we want to work all tiles with 5+ food including the fish currently used by Isca.). So here's how it might work: Whip the Globe for 7 pop. When the Globe is built and we have adopted Nationhood we draft 3 infantry/rifles immediately. City size is now 4. Working the fish, crab, deer and pig the city grows back to size 7 in about 5 turns and we repeat the draft of 3 units. Note, that drafting creates lots of unhappyness which makes it less attractive in most other cities - except maybe cities that we don't intend to keep or cities that require fast reinforcement.

My only concern regarding the civic changes is that we will be teching slower and we still need to research Assembly Line, Physics and Artillery before we have all the techs we need for the war. Maybe Assembly Line is good enough to get the war started - machine guns defending cities will be our main worry but we could still pillage and control our enemies even if we dont capture many cities. Pillaging the uranium is crucial.

I certainly agree with the three-civic revolution and the plan to pillage (uranium plus fishing nets) even if we can't take cities initially.

I expect H to initiate attack with city near Ning-hsia, and we should get destroyers in place there quickly.

No response to my suggestion to use the GA in Istanbul?

No response to my suggestion to use the GA in Istanbul?

This is because I don't know what effect it will have. It may have no immediate effect at all if the neigbouring Ottoman cities have much more culture. Does any of you know how to calculate this? My guess would be that it would free up the tiles adjacent to Istanbul and maybe a bit more towards the sea. But will it happen instantly or does it require some time?

The city will instantly get out of anarchy (or it would in regular CivIV).

The Great Artist In Istanbul will end the resistance instantly, but the Ottoman culture is so dominant surrounding the town it probably will not push the borders back. If we want to use him for culture bombing it may be better to wait for the capture of at least one more Ottoman town.

The city will instantly get out of anarchy (or it would in regular CivIV).

That might be useful if we want to draft defenders. Istanbul will come out of anarchy anyway in 6 turns - how long will it take to get the GA there? And what happens when we revolt to new civics - does that prolong the anarchy in Istanbul?

The Great Artist In Istanbul will end the resistance instantly, but the Ottoman culture is so dominant surrounding the town it probably will not push the borders back.

That's also what I fear allthough I have no hard facts to support it.

If we do nothing, there is a good chance that the city will stage an Ottoman resistance revolt as soon as, or shortly after, it comes out of anarchy. A second such revolt would flip the city. The GA generates a culture of 4000 (standard C4 game) and would almost certainly prevent that, which is why i suggested we consider using it. We could wait until after the first revolt to use it. I'm not sure it's the best use of the GA, given both the uncertainty of holding onto Istanbul and the possible future need for it in Ankara, but I wanted it to be considered.

Ok, here is the balance of this most difficult turn set.

Unfortunately, Hannibal has taken Kolhapur and has an Artillery unit outside of Delhi. We need more naval units and will need to declare on Hannibal soon.

Our government is restored.

<< THE SAVE >> (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/Xteam_SG004_AD1700_01.CivWarlordsSave)

The Turn Log:
Turn 365 – 1685 AD
Decide to save game and post for further team discussion. This is getting complicated.

Load up the save to continue the game.
The outstanding issue is the Great Artist and whether to use him in Istanbul?
I check the Victory Conditions screen and find that Gandhi is in the lead with 14,185 culture points in Delhi, 6836 in Madras and 5285 in Bombay. I then check the top 5 cities/wonders tab in the info screen. In Istanbul, there were no wonders and in checking the list of wonders that have been built, there are none listed for Mehmed. Going back through the Event Log, there was one Great Artist born that we don’t know who received him. Mehmed has had two Great Scientists and a Great Artist, the Great Artist was born in 1676 AD, three turns ago. Looking at the culture graph in the info screen under the Culture Tab, Mehmed shows no signs of using a Great Artist as a culture bomb. In fact, he is dead last in culture. The culture in our three top cities is 4620 in Nidaros, 1427 in Old Sarai and 1278 in Hittite. Therefore, I think it is reasonable to assume that Mehmed doesn’t have a great deal of culture in his cities, probably hasn’t reached the 7,500 mark in them yet and that a culture bomb has a reasonable chance for success in moving the borders. So I think I will try CP’s idea and set one off there. The problem will be getting him into the city as Mehmed’s culture has Istanbul encircled and says we must declare war to enter.

OK, first I change the culture setting to 10% and increase the science setting to 50%, Democracy due in 1 turn.

In Bibracte we pop-rush the Globe Theater, which requires 7 population, and mm to use all the high food tiles. Pop-rushing so many citizens caused a research decline, so change the sliders again to 0% culture and 60% research.

Begin moving Destroyers towards Hannibal’s territory. We get Kerkouane in sight and there is a Frigate outside the city and three Infantry, a SAM Infantry and a Cavalry in town. There are also a Cavalry, Longbow and Settler that belong to Washington there, no ships.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM04/1685AD_Kerkouane.jpg

Send the Great General to Old Sarai, arrives next turn.

IBT
Democracy comes in and we restart our research of Assembly Line to egt Infantry, then we can work on Artillery.
Bibracte Globe Theater => Barracks.
Tolosa expands.
Hannibal adopts Police State and Theocracy. He’s getting ready for war!

Turn 366 – 1688 AD
Send Great Artist towards Istanbul.
Sink one of Gandhi’s Frigates near Hittite.
Destroyer visits near Leptis and finds a fleet of two Frigates and three Galleons. Leptis has two Infantry, two SAM Infantry and two Cavalry.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM04/1688AD_Carthaginian_Fleet.jpg

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM04/1688AD_Leptis.jpg

Visit Hadrumetum and find six Infantry, two SAM Infantry, an Artillery, a Frigate and a Settler.
Run through the cities for last minute pop-rush opportunities.
See none so go to Civics screen and select Police State, Nationhood and Emancipation for 4 turns of Revolution.
Visit with Mehmed and trade him Corn for 4 GPT.
We also get a look at Kolhapur and it has a Rifleman, a Longbow, a Pike and a Caravel. Not a very robust force for fending off Hannibal.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM04/1688AD_Kolhapur.jpg

IBT
Hannibal’s fleet, now of two Frigates and two Galleons moves closer to Kolhapur.

Turn 367 – 1691 AD
Looking at Old Sarai, it already has a Military Academy there, so I send him to the center of the map to await a decision on where to best use him.

We get a look at Washington, which is full of Carthaginian troops.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM04/1691AD_Washington.jpg

And of New York.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM04/1691AD_New_York.jpg

We also get a look at Carthage, pretty dull; four Infantry, a SAM Infantry, an Artillery, a Great Prophet and two Confucian Missionaries.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM04/1691AD_Carthage.jpg

Decide I have to take a chance with Carthage and Kolhapur as I cannot stop them at this point anyway.

I decide to gift Izzy Railroad to see if she can get it to Gandhi for Machine Guns?

IBT
Hannibal lands a SAM Infantry, an Artillery and four Cavalry on the hill near Kolhapur.
Darn, darn, darn!!

Turn 368 – 1694 AD
I feel pretty useless at the moment as there is nothing I can do to save Kolhapur…

IBT
Kolhapur falls to Hannibal.
Mehmed comes and offers Open Borders, OK for now.

Turn 369 – 1697 AD
Offload troops and Great Artist in Istanbul.
Set off culture bomb in Istanbul, doesn’t break the culture lock. The Great Artist provided 6000 culture points!

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM04/1697AD_Istanbul_after_Culture_Bomb.jpg

A look at Sicca.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM04/1697AD_Sicca.jpg

IBT
Gandhi’s Ironclad defeats ours near Upsala.
The Anarchy is over and our Government is reestablished.

Turn 370 – 1700 AD
We draft a Rifle at Bibracte. Can only draft one per city per turn.
Send Rifle to Verlamion and fortify.

Sink Gandhi’s Ironclad with a Destroyer.

Increase research to 70%, Assembly Line in 6 turns.

I do not move the Great General but think the best place for a Military Academy is in Nidaros. The team can decide that as it is my last turn.

Change build in Istanbul from culture to Theater.

After Action Report
I lost Gandhi’s city in the south. It now belongs to Hannibal.

We have control over our government again. Assembly Line due in 6 turns. Couldn’t get anything out of Hannibal or Washington. Gifted Railroad to Izzy hoping it would get to Gandhi to give him a fighting chance with Machine Guns, but it hasn’t gotten there yet.

Set the culture bomb off in Istanbul but it didn’t affect much. We need to take Bursa and Konya. Not sure what is in Bursa but we should be able to take Konya from the sea. There are enough units in Istanbul to move when we are ready, although a few more Cannons would be nice. Before we do this, I think we should have a force ready near the Carthaginian city on our continent so we can quickly take it. There is another Transport inbound to Istanbul which can be there next turn, it is northwest.

A Destroyer screen has been established on the northern area of Carthage so we can detect any ship movement towards Gandhi’s home continent. There is a single Carthaginian Galleon west of Birka and a Frigate near Ning-hsia to watch.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM04/1700AD_Kerkouane.jpg

I just noticed a Carthaginian Artillery piece next to Delhi?? How did I miss that?
Also, please note the Carthaginian Frigate near Bombay.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM04/1700AD_Delhi.jpg

The Great General is unmoved this turn. A Military Academy already exists in Old Sarai, so we can use him elsewhere. I suggest a Military Academy in Nidaros. I think we can also change the western most farm in Nidaros’ fat cross to a Workshop.

For those interested in the gritty details:

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1670 AD to 1700 AD:

Turn 360, 1670 AD: Xteam's Destroyer (33.00) vs Gandhi's Frigate (10.40)
Turn 360, 1670 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 360, 1670 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 360, 1670 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 360, 1670 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 360, 1670 AD: Gandhi's Frigate is hit for 34 (66/100HP)
Turn 360, 1670 AD: Xteam's Destroyer is hit for 11 (89/100HP)
Turn 360, 1670 AD: Xteam's Destroyer is hit for 11 (78/100HP)
Turn 360, 1670 AD: Gandhi's Frigate is hit for 34 (32/100HP)
Turn 360, 1670 AD: Xteam's Destroyer is hit for 11 (67/100HP)
Turn 360, 1670 AD: Gandhi's Frigate is hit for 34 (0/100HP)
Turn 360, 1670 AD: Xteam's Destroyer has defeated Gandhi's Frigate!
Turn 360, 1670 AD: The borders of New Sarai have expanded!
Turn 360, 1670 AD: Turfan celebrates "We Love the Prime Minister Day"!!!
Turn 360, 1670 AD: Tolosa celebrates "We Love the Prime Minister Day"!!!

Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Cannon (12.00) vs Mehmed II's Rifleman (33.60)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Combat Odds: 0.1%
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Plot Defense: +40%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Amphibious Attack: +50%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 12 (88/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Cannon is hit for 32 (68/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Cannon is hit for 32 (36/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 12 (76/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Cannon is hit for 32 (4/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Cannon is hit for 32 (0/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman has defeated Xteam's Cannon!
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier (13.20) vs Mehmed II's Rifleman (7.28)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Combat Odds: 97.2%
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Plot Defense: +40%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (City Defense: +20%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (City Attack: -75%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Class Attack: -50%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Combat: -35%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 26 (65/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 26 (39/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 26 (13/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 15 (55/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier has defeated Mehmed II's Rifleman!
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier (13.20) vs Mehmed II's Rifleman (9.66)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Combat Odds: 87.4%
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Plot Defense: +40%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Class Attack: -50%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 21 (55/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 21 (34/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 21 (13/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier has defeated Mehmed II's Rifleman!
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier (13.20) vs Mehmed II's Cannon (8.27)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Combat Odds: 95.6%
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Cannon is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Cannon is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Cannon is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Cannon is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier has defeated Mehmed II's Cannon!
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier (13.20) vs Mehmed II's Rifleman (9.79)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Combat Odds: 78.9%
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Plot Defense: +40%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Class Attack: -50%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 22 (69/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 22 (47/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 22 (25/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 17 (15/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 17 (0/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman has defeated Xteam's Grenadier!
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier (13.20) vs Mehmed II's Cannon (6.85)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Combat Odds: 99.0%
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (City Attack: -75%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Cannon is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Cannon is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Cannon is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Cannon is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier has defeated Mehmed II's Cannon!
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier (13.20) vs Mehmed II's Rifleman (9.79)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Combat Odds: 78.9%
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Plot Defense: +40%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Class Attack: -50%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 22 (69/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 22 (47/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 22 (25/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 22 (3/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier has defeated Mehmed II's Rifleman!
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier (13.20) vs Mehmed II's Rifleman (9.79)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Combat Odds: 78.9%
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Plot Defense: +40%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Class Attack: -50%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 22 (69/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 22 (47/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 22 (25/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 22 (3/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier has defeated Mehmed II's Rifleman!
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier (14.40) vs Mehmed II's Rifleman (3.18)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Plot Defense: +40%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Class Attack: -50%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier has defeated Mehmed II's Rifleman!
Turn 361, 1673 AD: You have captured Istanbul!!!
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Buddhism has spread in Copper Mountain.
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Turfan celebrates "We Love the Prime Minister Day"!!!
Turn 361, 1673 AD: The borders of Gergovia have expanded!
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Tolosa celebrates "We Love the Prime Minister Day"!!!
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Cannon (12.00) vs Xteam's Machine Gun (24.30)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Combat Odds: 0.5%
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Machine Gun is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Cannon is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Cannon is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Cannon is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Machine Gun is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Cannon (12.00) vs Xteam's Machine Gun (11.77)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Combat Odds: 58.0%
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Machine Gun is hit for 18 (54/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Machine Gun is hit for 18 (36/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Cannon is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Cannon is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Cannon is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Machine Gun is hit for 18 (18/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Cannon is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Machine Gun is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Cannon has defeated Xteam's Machine Gun!
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Cannon (12.00) vs Xteam's Grenadier (14.58)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Combat Odds: 26.6%
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Hills: +20%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Cannon is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Cannon is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Cannon is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Cannon is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 17 (73/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Cannon is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier has defeated Mehmed II's Cannon!
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Cannon (12.00) vs Xteam's Grenadier (13.92)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Combat Odds: 41.0%
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 17 (63/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Cannon is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 17 (46/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 17 (29/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Cannon is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 17 (12/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 17 (0/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Cannon has defeated Xteam's Grenadier!
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman (15.40) vs Xteam's Grenadier (13.60)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Combat Odds: 70.4%
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Hills: +20%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Combat: +25%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 18 (45/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 18 (27/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 18 (9/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman has defeated Xteam's Grenadier!
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman (15.40) vs Xteam's Cannon (13.20)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Combat Odds: 71.5%
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Cannon is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Cannon is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Cannon has defeated Mehmed II's Rifleman!
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Grenadier (13.20) vs Xteam's Cannon (13.20)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Combat Odds: 50.0%
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Grenadier is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Cannon is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Grenadier is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Cannon is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Cannon is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Grenadier is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Cannon is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Cannon is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Grenadier has defeated Xteam's Cannon!
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Gustavus II Adolphus (Great General) has been born in Bursa (Mehmed II)!
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Grenadier (13.20) vs Xteam's Grenadier (12.24)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Combat Odds: 67.7%
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Combat: +25%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 17 (43/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 17 (26/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Grenadier is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Grenadier is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Grenadier is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Grenadier is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Grenadier is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier has defeated Mehmed II's Grenadier!
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Khalid ibn al-Walid (Great General) has been born in Nidaros (Xteam)!
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Grenadier (13.20) vs Xteam's Cannon (12.00)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Combat Odds: 68.1%
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Cannon is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Grenadier is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Grenadier is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Cannon is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Cannon is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Grenadier is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Grenadier is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Grenadier is hit for 19 (5/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Cannon is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Grenadier is hit for 19 (0/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Cannon has defeated Mehmed II's Grenadier!
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Grenadier (13.20) vs Xteam's Grenadier (11.34)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Combat Odds: 71.6%
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 19 (51/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 19 (32/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 19 (13/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 19 (0/100HP)
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Mehmed II's Grenadier has defeated Xteam's Grenadier!
Turn 361, 1673 AD: Abu Bakr (Great Prophet) has been born in Madrid (Isabella)!

Turn 362, 1676 AD: Xteam's Cannon (10.42) vs Mehmed II's Rifleman (15.40)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: Combat Odds: 10.4%
Turn 362, 1676 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: Xteam's Cannon is hit for 22 (57/100HP)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: Xteam's Cannon is hit for 22 (35/100HP)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: Xteam's Cannon is hit for 22 (13/100HP)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: Xteam's Cannon is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman has defeated Xteam's Cannon!
Turn 362, 1676 AD: Xteam's Destroyer (36.00) vs Mehmed II's Frigate (9.60)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 362, 1676 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: Mehmed II's Frigate is hit for 36 (64/100HP)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: Mehmed II's Frigate is hit for 36 (28/100HP)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: Mehmed II's Frigate is hit for 36 (0/100HP)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: Xteam's Destroyer has defeated Mehmed II's Frigate!
Turn 362, 1676 AD: Mikhail Lomonosov (Great Scientist) has been born in Delhi (Gandhi)!
Turn 362, 1676 AD: Mehmed II's Grenadier (12.54) vs Xteam's Grenadier (14.36)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: Combat Odds: 56.2%
Turn 362, 1676 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: (City Defense: +20%)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: (Combat: +25%)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 16 (47/100HP)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: Mehmed II's Grenadier is hit for 23 (72/100HP)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: Mehmed II's Grenadier is hit for 23 (49/100HP)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: Mehmed II's Grenadier is hit for 23 (26/100HP)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 16 (31/100HP)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: Mehmed II's Grenadier is hit for 23 (3/100HP)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: Mehmed II's Grenadier is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: Xteam's Grenadier has defeated Mehmed II's Grenadier!
Turn 362, 1676 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman (9.74) vs Xteam's Grenadier (12.67)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: Combat Odds: 23.1%
Turn 362, 1676 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: (Combat: +25%)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 18 (48/100HP)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: Xteam's Grenadier has defeated Mehmed II's Rifleman!
Turn 362, 1676 AD: Mehmed II's Grenadier (9.24) vs Xteam's Grenadier (9.72)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: Combat Odds: 47.4%
Turn 362, 1676 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: Mehmed II's Grenadier is hit for 21 (49/100HP)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: Mehmed II's Grenadier is hit for 21 (28/100HP)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 18 (42/100HP)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 18 (24/100HP)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 18 (6/100HP)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: Mehmed II's Grenadier is hit for 21 (7/100HP)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: Mehmed II's Grenadier is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 362, 1676 AD: Xteam's Grenadier has defeated Mehmed II's Grenadier!
Turn 362, 1676 AD: Virgil (Great Artist) has been born in Konya (Mehmed II)!
Turn 362, 1676 AD: Washington adopts Representation!
Turn 362, 1676 AD: Isabella has completed The Mahabodhi!

Turn 363, 1679 AD: Xteam's Grenadier (10.03) vs Mehmed II's Artillery (14.04)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Combat Odds: 20.1%
Turn 363, 1679 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 23 (53/100HP)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 23 (30/100HP)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Mehmed II's Artillery is hit for 17 (61/100HP)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Mehmed II's Artillery is hit for 17 (44/100HP)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 23 (7/100HP)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Mehmed II's Artillery has defeated Xteam's Grenadier!
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Xteam's Grenadier (7.92) vs Mehmed II's Rifleman (8.48)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Combat Odds: 32.7%
Turn 363, 1679 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: (Class Attack: -50%)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 17 (43/100HP)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 17 (26/100HP)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 17 (9/100HP)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 17 (0/100HP)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman has defeated Xteam's Grenadier!
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Xteam's Grenadier (8.97) vs Mehmed II's Artillery (7.92)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Combat Odds: 71.4%
Turn 363, 1679 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 21 (47/100HP)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Mehmed II's Artillery is hit for 18 (26/100HP)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 21 (26/100HP)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 21 (5/100HP)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Mehmed II's Artillery is hit for 18 (8/100HP)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Mehmed II's Artillery has defeated Xteam's Grenadier!
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Xteam's Grenadier (8.71) vs Mehmed II's Rifleman (4.48)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Combat Odds: 95.1%
Turn 363, 1679 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: (Class Attack: -50%)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: (Combat: -35%)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 26 (30/100HP)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 26 (4/100HP)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Xteam's Grenadier has defeated Mehmed II's Rifleman!
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Xteam's Grenadier (8.58) vs Mehmed II's Artillery (2.88)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Combat Odds: 99.6%
Turn 363, 1679 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Mehmed II's Artillery is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Xteam's Grenadier has defeated Mehmed II's Artillery!
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Xteam's Grenadier (7.34) vs Mehmed II's Artillery (2.88)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Combat Odds: 97.8%
Turn 363, 1679 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 19 (32/100HP)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Mehmed II's Artillery is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Xteam's Grenadier has defeated Mehmed II's Artillery!
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Xteam's Cannon (4.80) vs Mehmed II's Artillery (2.16)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Combat Odds: 90.4%
Turn 363, 1679 AD: (Combat: +50%)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Mehmed II's Artillery is hit for 15 (0/100HP)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Xteam's Cannon has defeated Mehmed II's Artillery!
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Georgy Zhukov (Great General) has been born in Delhi (Gandhi)!
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Mehmed II's Grenadier (14.40) vs Xteam's Grenadier (13.86)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Combat Odds: 65.8%
Turn 363, 1679 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: (Fortify: +5%)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: (Combat: +35%)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 18 (48/100HP)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 18 (30/100HP)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 18 (12/100HP)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Mehmed II's Grenadier has defeated Xteam's Grenadier!
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman (14.00) vs Xteam's Grenadier (12.87)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Combat Odds: 68.4%
Turn 363, 1679 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: (Fortify: +5%)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: (Combat: +25%)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 18 (47/100HP)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 18 (29/100HP)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Xteam's Grenadier is hit for 18 (11/100HP)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Mehmed II's Rifleman is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 363, 1679 AD: Xteam's Grenadier has defeated Mehmed II's Rifleman!

Turn 364, 1682 AD: You have made peace with Mehmed II!
Turn 364, 1682 AD: The borders of Turfan have expanded!
Turn 364, 1682 AD: Hannibal has declared war on Gandhi!
Turn 364, 1682 AD: Mehmed II has agreed to become a vassal state of Hannibal

Turn 365, 1685 AD: You have discovered Democracy!
Turn 365, 1685 AD: The borders of Tolosa have expanded!
Turn 365, 1685 AD: Hannibal adopts Police State!
Turn 365, 1685 AD: Hannibal adopts Theocracy!

Turn 366, 1688 AD: Xteam's Destroyer (30.00) vs Gandhi's Frigate (10.40)
Turn 366, 1688 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 366, 1688 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 366, 1688 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 366, 1688 AD: Gandhi's Frigate is hit for 32 (68/100HP)
Turn 366, 1688 AD: Gandhi's Frigate is hit for 32 (36/100HP)
Turn 366, 1688 AD: Gandhi's Frigate is hit for 32 (4/100HP)
Turn 366, 1688 AD: Gandhi's Frigate is hit for 32 (0/100HP)
Turn 366, 1688 AD: Xteam's Destroyer has defeated Gandhi's Frigate!
Turn 366, 1688 AD: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 366, 1688 AD: Xteam adopts Police State!
Turn 366, 1688 AD: Xteam adopts Nationhood!
Turn 366, 1688 AD: Xteam adopts Emancipation!

Turn 367, 1691 AD: Camulodunum celebrates "We Love the Dictator Day"!!!
Turn 367, 1691 AD: Vercingetorix (Great General) has been born in Carthage (Hannibal)!

Turn 368, 1694 AD: Camulodunum celebrates "We Love the Dictator Day"!!!
Turn 368, 1694 AD: Kolhapur (Gandhi) has been captured by the Carthaginian Empire!!!

Turn 369, 1697 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Uppsala!
Turn 369, 1697 AD: The borders of Istanbul have expanded!
Turn 369, 1697 AD: The borders of Istanbul have expanded!
Turn 369, 1697 AD: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.
Turn 369, 1697 AD: Gandhi's Ironclad (14.40) vs Xteam's Ironclad (13.20)
Turn 369, 1697 AD: Combat Odds: 67.6%
Turn 369, 1697 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 369, 1697 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 369, 1697 AD: Xteam's Ironclad is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 369, 1697 AD: Gandhi's Ironclad is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 369, 1697 AD: Xteam's Ironclad is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 369, 1697 AD: Xteam's Ironclad is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 369, 1697 AD: Xteam's Ironclad is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 369, 1697 AD: Gandhi's Ironclad is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 369, 1697 AD: Xteam's Ironclad is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 369, 1697 AD: Gandhi's Ironclad has defeated Xteam's Ironclad!
Turn 369, 1697 AD: While defending, your Ironclad was destroyed by a Indian Ironclad!

Turn 370, 1700 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Uppsala!
Turn 370, 1700 AD: Xteam's Destroyer (39.00) vs Gandhi's Ironclad (9.67)
Turn 370, 1700 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 370, 1700 AD: (Extra Combat: -30%)
Turn 370, 1700 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 370, 1700 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 370, 1700 AD: Gandhi's Ironclad is hit for 33 (29/100HP)
Turn 370, 1700 AD: Gandhi's Ironclad is hit for 33 (0/100HP)
Turn 370, 1700 AD: Xteam's Destroyer has defeated Gandhi's Ironclad!
Turn 370, 1700 AD: Your Destroyer has destroyed a Ironclad!

Well, leif, you had quite a struggle. My idea to use the GA in Istanbul appears to have been a bad one. I do not understand culture. Nonetheless, I think you’ve brought us out of it in pretty good shape, but Gandhi has certainly been set back a bit.

I’ve never played a game that brought me this far up the tech tree, so I’ve got more questions than answers. In no particular order, here is what interests me:

What else, besides the one artillery unit, has H managed to transport to India? Where are they, and what are they doing?

Where is the rest of H’s navy, or is what we’ve seen what he has? We need to move some destroyers around and see if they bump into anything.

In sum, we need to know if Gandhi remains in immediate jeopardy. If not, then I think we want to wait until we are in a position to take out M quickly and to weaken (or at least pillage) H considerably. If H really only has a few galleons, then we should have the option of sinking them all, along with their escorts, before they reach India. If he puts his best units aboard, we’ll have little choice but to try to do that, but if he puts cavalry and the like on so few ships, Gandhi can probably take care of himself. (He may have done so already, if the lone artillery piece we can see is all there is.)

Why are we building a theatre in Istanbul while our population starves away? Shouldn’t we be drafting destroyers instead?

It doesn’t seem optimal to me to have so many empty galleon anchored off of Istanbul. If we load some of the units now in the city into the galleons and move them two tiles SW of Konya, then not only will they keep an eye on that city but we will also have saved a turn should we want to go after Ankara (and they would still be readily available to help defend Istanbul). Plus, let’s sail at least a couple of those galleons and perhaps a transport along the southern ice passage and try to get them in position to eventually be useful should we want to land units on Carthaginian soil.

I’m thinking that we should use the GG to promote perhaps four cannons with extra city raiders in anticipation of upgrading them to devastating artillery pieces (plus one free upgrade).

Let’s find out what M has in his cities ASAP.

Now that we’ve revolted to Nationalism, we can draft a unit in any city in one turn, so I don’t think we need to hold the two frigates on coast guard duty near Bibracte. Let’s sail them east and then south, serving as scouts as they go, heading for Ottoman territory. They figure to be of some use to us there, or at least they will be in better position to help us in future battles.

Frederiksberg, please explain again how you are deducing the uranium and its locations in Carthaginian territory? BTW, I will be gone for three days beginning Saturday (5/13). Do you plan to play by Wednesday? (Hoping I can get my licks in before I leave.)

H will trade Physics for Combustion and 350 gold, which suggests to me that he is not researching Combustion. Is he going for control of the skies instead of the seas? If so, how much of a threat is that, and how would we combat it? At any rate, let’s keep an eye on this. If the trade ceases to be available, it might be time to go after H, beginning by taking out as much of his navy as possible.

Tough turn set :eek:. And bad luck that most of our naval forces were committed to the Ottoman offensive so that we were unable to respond to Hannibals attack on Gandhi. No need to panic though - I think we are in a position to attack soon and get Hannibal under control. We could also retake Kolhapur at some point and leave it undefended hoping for an indian revolt to take place (Or for Gandhi to take it back).

Drafting works slightly different from what I expected. It seems that on top of the cap of 3 drafts per turn there is a cap of one draft per city. Doesn't make that much difference though. Note that we can only draft a specific unit! Right now it's rifleman and when Assembly Line is discovered it will be infantry. And the drafted units will only get half the XP as unit built in that particular city (Btw. good that Leif noticed we needed barracks in Bibracte!).


Frederiksberg, please explain again how you are deducing the uranium and its locations in Carthaginian territory? BTW, I will be gone for three days beginning Saturday (5/13). Do you plan to play by Wednesday? (Hoping I can get my licks in before I leave.)

The position of the uranium can be deduced by using the "yield" display which shows how many hammers, food and commerce the different tiles produce. The uranium gives extra commerce - I think its 4 - when mined. You will also notice that these mines often stand out because they are placed on grassland or plains tiles where you can only put a mine if there is a resource that can be mined.

I expect to play 10 turns wednesday evening CET. Haven't seen the save yet but I hope I will be able to post a todo list no later than tuesday evening.

Well, leif, you had quite a struggle. My idea to use the GA in Istanbul appears to have been a bad one. I do not understand culture. Nonetheless, I think you’ve brought us out of it in pretty good shape, but Gandhi has certainly been set back a bit.
Thanks, I wasn't too happy with the way things went, especially the loss of Kolhapur. I don't understand how Hannibal got troops to Delhi so quickly. They had to have been up there when he declared. The Galleon near Birka may be heading home empty, but maybe it is not. It is within drop off range of Dehli.

What else, besides the one artillery unit, has H managed to transport to India? Where are they, and what are they doing?
The center Destroyer north of Kerkouane has not yet been moved and could get to Delhi to have a peek. For me, as our strength is in our Navy, we should use that to kill Hannibal's troops. He is transporting, in general, a Frigate with each Galleon. That means we need four Destroyers to take out a stack of four ships. I was trying to get enough Destroyers between H and Delhi.
Where is the rest of H’s navy, or is what we’ve seen what he has? We need to move some destroyers around and see if they bump into anything.
I provided screenshots of the cities I could see and not leave the route to India unprotected. From what we've seen, H's Navy is mostly in Kerkouane. I was thinking that if we go to war, we could make him go into ship production if we destroy enough of them.

In sum, we need to know if Gandhi remains in immediate jeopardy. If not, then I think we want to wait until we are in a position to take out M quickly and to weaken (or at least pillage) H considerably. If H really only has a few galleons, then we should have the option of sinking them all, along with their escorts, before they reach India. If he puts his best units aboard, we’ll have little choice but to try to do that, but if he puts cavalry and the like on so few ships, Gandhi can probably take care of himself. (He may have done so already, if the lone artillery piece we can see is all there is.)
I'm not sure how the AI decides what to do. What I observed is that he sends offensive units (Cavalry) with siege units and an Infantry or SAM Infantry to cover. Eventually, I think he'll get short of Cavalry and start sending Infantry.

Why are we building a theatre in Istanbul while our population starves away? Shouldn’t we be drafting destroyers instead?
You can not draft when you have less than 10% of your own Nationality in a city. Right now we have 5%. And, as Fredericksberg wrote, you can only draft the best Infantry unit available to you. Right now that is Rifles. I hoped that by building a culture building we might be able to gain some nationality, although I must admit that I'm unsure how this really works. It may be that you have to home grow your own citizens there?

BTW - the culture bomb seems to have slowed down the revolt I was sure was coming in Istanbul. Perhaps it will keep it stable until we're ready to move against Mehmed (well, actually Hannibal).

It doesn’t seem optimal to me to have so many empty galleon anchored off of Istanbul. If we load some of the units now in the city into the galleons and move them two tiles SW of Konya, then not only will they keep an eye on that city but we will also have saved a turn should we want to go after Ankara (and they would still be readily available to help defend Istanbul). Plus, let’s sail at least a couple of those galleons and perhaps a transport along the southern ice passage and try to get them in position to eventually be useful should we want to land units on Carthaginian soil.
I agree. At first they were there to evacuate if need be. Then, I needed the Destroyers and the Galleons couldn't go off by themselves without a threat of them being sunk. As the Transports can travel unescorted for now, I think they be the shuttles for our troops from the mainland to the front, and they are much faster. The Galleon can provide the tactical lift at the front for the time being.

I’m thinking that we should use the GG to promote perhaps four cannons with extra city raiders in anticipation of upgrading them to devastating artillery pieces (plus one free upgrade).
This is fine by me. Although it is going to be a while before we have Artillery unless we can get Washington or Hannibal to gift it to us? I have been trying this as well to no avail. Producing Military in Nidaros 50% faster sounded like a deal to me when the ottomans were beating up on our Grenadiers.

Let’s find out what M has in his cities ASAP.
Last I checked, the southern coastal cities had 3 Rifles each in them. I have never had a chance to check on Bursa.

Now that we’ve revolted to Nationalism, we can draft a unit in any city in one turn, so I don’t think we need to hold the two frigates on coast guard duty near Bibracte. Let’s sail them east and then south, serving as scouts as they go, heading for Ottoman territory. They figure to be of some use to us there, or at least they will be in better position to help us in future battles.
I had not moved those units because I had hoped to upgrade them to Destroyers and send them around to have a look at and perhaps bombard Bursa.

H will trade Physics for Combustion and 350 gold, which suggests to me that he is not researching Combustion. Is he going for control of the skies instead of the seas? If so, how much of a threat is that, and how would we combat it? At any rate, let’s keep an eye on this. If the trade ceases to be available, it might be time to go after H, beginning by taking out as much of his navy as possible.
Destroyers provide some protection against aircraft. The primary defense is other aircraft or SAM Infantry.

Provided Mehmed doesn't have too much Artillery, I think we are close to a time when we have to take him on before he gets Infantry. If Konya still has three Rifles in it, we can take it from the sea. Bursa is another problem as we need to march to it and will surely lose at least one unit as I know there is an Artillery unit there because it was outside of Istanbul and left with the signing of a Cease Fire agreement. Taking Thaenae is another problem (the Carthaginian city near Turfan). But I think that goes along with declaring on Hannibal? Part of the reason I took a risk with Kolhapur was not being ready to take out this city. Our cities around it are defended by Spears or Warriors. Everything else was shipped to Istanbul and I couldn't replace it due to the 4-turn anarchy.

H will trade Physics for Combustion and 350 gold, which suggests to me that he is not researching Combustion. Is he going for control of the skies instead of the seas? If so, how much of a threat is that, and how would we combat it? At any rate, let’s keep an eye on this. If the trade ceases to be available, it might be time to go after H, beginning by taking out as much of his navy as possible.

He won't be building any aircrafts for a while because all the early airborne units require oil and I don't see where he can get oil. I very much doubt that Izzy is willing to deal with him and Washington only has one oil resource on land since we captured the second one using cultural pressure from Vienne.

I’m grateful for the education received regarding drafting and uranium.

“We could also retake Kolhapur at some point and leave it undefended hoping for an indian revolt to take place (Or for Gandhi to take it back).”

Is a city more likely to revolt if it is undefended, or would we lose any units in the city if a revolt occurs? If neither, why not leave unit(s) and a galleon there to be moved should Gandhi’s navy show?

If we are going to produce infantry on a regular basis in Bibracte, then we need to get a transport ship of some kind there.

“I provided screenshots of the cities I could see and not leave the route to India unprotected. From what we've seen, H's Navy is mostly in Kerkouane. I was thinking that if we go to war, we could make him go into ship production if we destroy enough of them.”

Leif, your screen shots were appreciated. Your thoughts mirror mine. In addition, we should be able to give him reason to build work boats.

“I'm not sure how the AI decides what to do. What I observed is that he sends offensive units (Cavalry) with siege units and an Infantry or SAM Infantry to cover. Eventually, I think he'll get short of Cavalry and start sending Infantry.”

I anticipate that, as soon as we sink one convoy, he’ll stop attacking and start defending, which suggests we make that first convoy a valuable one.

If we have to go to war within the next six or seven turns, it might be smart to first trade Combustion to H for Physics, especially if it looks like we’ll be able to sink most of his frigates at the onset. Also appealing (should our hand not be forced) is to put science on 0% after researching Assembly Line to have gold for upgrading our grenadiers, anticipating such a trade just before we choose to go to war. I’m thinking (1) I’d rather have H building destroyers than more defending land units, and (2) with our superior naval numbers (and more in production), we should still be able to control the oceans while getting to artillery quicker, .

Would be nice to get a sentry naval unit in place somewhere around Karachi.

“I expect to play 10 turns wednesday evening CET. Haven't seen the save yet but I hope I will be able to post a todo list no later than tuesday evening.”

Sounds good. I will try and look at your plan late Tuesday night (or earlier, if available). Also, as I will have only two days to get my turn in, hope everyone will provide me with advice soon after Frederiksberg posts his save.

He won't be building any aircrafts for a while because all the early airborne units require oil and I don't see where he can get oil. I very much doubt that Izzy is willing to deal with him and Washington only has one oil resource on land since we captured the second one using cultural pressure from Vienne.

Also, good to hear.

Since Hannibal has Uranium selling him Combustion will put our naval tactics at some risk as he will now be able to build Destroyers and upgrade his fleet.

And we need to let India develop its fleet instead of sending it to the bottom. They will need to get troops to Kohlapur once that becomes feasible if we retake it and then abandon the city to its fate.

The AI generally makes a single sortie with its navy and if that has any success it will send out a second one, so long as they think they have naval superiority. If you can show them a real navy - four destroyers should be enough, and sink a frigate or two, they will remain in their ports, or send the ships on net pillaging missions.

The trick in this situation is that Hannibal can use Kohlapur as a coasting bolt hole and get there in one from is mainland and then be on Gandhi's soil in another if I read the map right. Though sometimes they can surprise you and do an end around, so mapping out the waters to Hannibal's NE and setting the fleet up for mutual support while at the same time covering as much sight as possible is the way to proceed.

I’m grateful for the education received regarding drafting and uranium.

I think we are all learning something here :). At least I was unaware of the (per city) drafting cap and the cultural 10% limit.

Is a city more likely to revolt if it is undefended, or would we lose any units in the city if a revolt occurs? If neither, why not leave unit(s) and a galleon there to be moved should Gandhi’s navy show?


Yes, with fewer defenders the city will revolt more easily. An indian revolt would be the preferred way to give back Kolhapur to Gandhi because if he captures it from us it will increase his WW.

Since Hannibal has Uranium selling him Combustion will put our naval tactics at some risk as he will now be able to build Destroyers and upgrade his fleet.

I also see this as a problem because he has uranium in at least 3 places and it might be difficult to arrange for all these to be pillaged immediately.

Since Hannibal has Uranium selling him Combustion will put our naval tactics at some risk as he will now be able to build Destroyers and upgrade his fleet.

And we need to let India develop its fleet instead of sending it to the bottom. They will need to get troops to Kohlapur once that becomes feasible if we retake it and then abandon the city to its fate.

I have no desire to sink any more of G's navy, and I understand that H would be able to build destroyers. My argument is that it may be preferable for him to build them rather than land units to defend his cities. We are in a better position to deal with destroyers, as I think most would be likely to stay in port anyway.

Trading for Physics rather than researching it saves turns, several of which we will soon lose in order to gain the gold to upgrade our grenadiers -- plus it catches us up with Washington a bit, and he is probably going to be our biggest long-term problem. If we are in a position to sink most of H's frigates initially, the trade is surely worth considering seriously.

I had not recognized H's ability to get to Kohlapur in one turn. Would it be practical to blockade that?

Almost forgot the roster??
Frederiksberg - UP
Cactus Pete - On Deck
Gator
RRAU
Bede
Sanabas
Leif - hiding under his bed!! ;)

Interesting discussion.
I am hesitant to give up Combustion. He can use Uranium to build both Destroyers and Transports. We do not know what else he has and, should he obtain Industrialism, then he has Battleships that will also run on Uranium. His Navy is his achillies heal at the moment and I think we might be better off keeping it that way. It isolates him for the moment.

He does not have Open Borders with Izzy, so we are more or less safe in former Celt territory. Anything we have in the Ottoman area would be subject to attack. That might not be a bad thing as his forces may get diverted there and they won't be in his territory. That means we should be ready to strike where we get an opportunity.

I have to go, will think some more and get back...

Had a look at the save.

The Combustion for Physics deal is tempting in order to catch up techwise. You could also argue that getting Physics puts us closer to Artillery and that might help us even more than it helps Hannibal to get Combustion. Right now we are suffering from the fact that our units are to weak to battle against Hannibal.

Right now it seems possible to eliminate 4 of Hannibals Frigates and maybe even more if we can persuade some of them to sail towards India. Our main problem is that we are vulnerable to an attack in Istanbul and we don't have any forces we can land and start pillaging the uranium. I don't think Hannibals troops in Thaenae will leave the city and attack. Getting any rifles to Istanbul takes at least 4 turns. Question is if we can afford to wait 4 turns hoping that the tech deal is still available then. Or maybe fewer turns if Hannibals frigates leave for India where they can't be upgraded. In that case we could do the tech deal a little earlier and wait with the war declaration until Istanbul is reinforced with some rifles and a machine gun. When we get Assembly Line after 6 turns we should be reasonably safe because we can draft infantry in case of trouble. We need, of course, to keep an eye on Hannibals galleons to prevent unpleasant surprises like infantry landing on our shores

Had a look at the save.

The Combustion for Physics deal is tempting in order to catch up techwise. You could also argue that getting Physics puts us closer to Artillery and that might help us even more than it helps Hannibal to get Combustion.

Yes.


Right now it seems possible to eliminate 4 of Hannibals Frigates and maybe even more if we can persuade some of them to sail towards India. Our main problem is that we are vulnerable to an attack in Istanbul and we don't have any forces we can land and start pillaging the uranium. I don't think Hannibals troops in Thaenae will leave the city and attack. Getting any rifles to Istanbul takes at least 4 turns. Question is if we can afford to wait 4 turns hoping that the tech deal is still available then. Or maybe fewer turns if Hannibals frigates leave for India where they can't be upgraded. In that case we could do the tech deal a little earlier and wait with the war declaration until Istanbul is reinforced with some rifles and a machine gun. When we get Assembly Line after 6 turns we should be reasonably safe because we can draft infantry in case of trouble. We need, of course, to keep an eye on Hannibals galleons to prevent unpleasant surprises like infantry landing on our shores

It's not such a great trade that we can't afford to wait.

Having slept on this, I can see the possibilities in trading Combustion to Hannibal in order to speed up our own research to Artillery. :D BTW, Washington has Combustion and he also is a +10 with Hannibal, so I suppose he could also trade it to Hannibal and, so, I wouldn't wait too long to make the trade.

I think the important thing for us in this is that we'll need to build Destroyers in order that we can always have them in pairs, or mutually supporting so that if one of ours gets attacked and sunk, we can attack the wounded attacker.

We have the opportunity to break the Vassal agreement between Mehmed and Hannibal by taking several of Mehmed's cities. If Mehmed loses 50% of the land area while a Vassal, he is freed from the agreement. I think he could become our Vassal.

I think I have a couple of things to put on the todo list now:

1. Use a couple of turns to scout and get an idea of the size and whereabouts of Hannibals navy.
2. Reinforce Istanbul with defensive units. We have a machine gun ready to be moved to Istanbul and I think I can create a galleon chain to Verlaminium (or whatever it's called) that can bring 3 rifles (drafted in Bibracte) down there in about 4 turns.
3. When Istanbul is reinforced we hit the Carthaginian navy sinking as many ships as possible in first turn.
4. Trade Combustion for Physics after a couple of turns. Best case is if we can wait 4 turns and sink a lot of Hannibals frigates before he has a chance to upgrade. Will monitor the trade every turn looking for indications that Hannibal is researching Combustion himself. Anybody have an idea of how likely it is that Washington will trade Combustion to him?
5. If feasible launch an attack on the Ottoman city south of Istanbul when war is declared. I might wait for any attacks on Istanbul first - don't want to capture another city we would have problems defending.
6. If feasible land pillaging units near uranium mines. This can only be done after upgrading units to infantry since our other units would be sitting ducks. Best pillaging force is probably infantry + machine gun + cavalry.

Assembly line is due in 6 turns so we should be able to draft infantry before any troops from Thaenae can reach our cities (provided that we wait 4 turns with the war declaration). If scouting reveals a potential threat from Kolhapur I will reinforce Ningh-hsia somehow and keep destroyers ready for defense.

I think the important thing for us in this is that we'll need to build Destroyers in order that we can always have them in pairs, or mutually supporting so that if one of ours gets attacked and sunk, we can attack the wounded attacker.

Yes, but unless or until H fields a much more formidable navy, pairing shouldn't keep us from maximizing their use as scouts, pillagers, and to reduce city defenses.

We have the opportunity to break the Vassal agreement between Mehmed and Hannibal by taking several of Mehmed's cities. If Mehmed loses 50% of the land area while a Vassal, he is freed from the agreement. I think he could become our Vassal.

In what form would we want M as a vassal?

1. Use a couple of turns to scout and get an idea of the size and whereabouts of Hannibals navy.
2. Reinforce Istanbul with defensive units. We have a machine gun ready to be moved to Istanbul and I think I can create a galleon chain to Verlaminium (or whatever it's called) that can bring 3 rifles (drafted in Bibracte) down there in about 4 turns.
3. When Istanbul is reinforced we trade for Physics and then hit the Carthaginian navy sinking as many ships as possible in first turn.
4. Trade Combustion for Physics after a couple of turns. Best case is if we can wait 4 turns and sink a lot of Hannibals frigates before he has a chance to upgrade. Will monitor the trade every turn looking for indications that Hannibal is researching Combustion himself. Anybody have an idea of how likely it is that Washington will trade Combustion to him? What does H have that W might want?
5. If feasible launch an attack on the Ottoman city south of Istanbul when war is declared. I might wait for any attacks on Istanbul first - don't want to capture another city we would have problems defending. If you get your four turns of peace, you'll be able to scout all the Ottoman cities and know how easy or hard city defense will be.. If feasible land pillaging units near uranium mines. This can only be done after upgrading units to infantry since our other units would be sitting ducks. Best pillaging force is probably infantry + machine gun + cavalry. Bear in mind that x-team and then Gandhi, hopefully, will take over some of the Carthaginain territory in time. Also, is there a Carthaginian city that would be possible and desirable to capture and hold early on?
Assembly line is due in 6 turns so we should be able to draft infantry before any troops from Thaenae can reach our cities (provided that we wait 4 turns with the war declaration). If scouting reveals a potential threat from Kolhapur I will reinforce Ningh-hsia somehow and keep destroyers ready for defense.

Are you planning to suspend science after Assembly Line to upgrade before proceeding to get artillery? That would seem almost necessary.

Would you not want to wait more than 4 turns if circumstances allow it?

Are you planning to suspend science after Assembly Line to upgrade before proceeding to get artillery? That would seem almost necessary.

Would you not want to wait more than 4 turns if circumstances allow it?

Suspending tech for a while will be necessary in order to upgrade our grenadiers to infantry. I would like to wait for as long as possible with the war declaration because we need time to build our armed forces and upgrade.

Bear in mind that x-team and then Gandhi, hopefully, will take over some of the Carthaginain territory in time.

I was thinking about pillaging stuff that can be easily rebuilt. That means leaving villages and towns alone. Pillaging the uranium mines is of course top priority.

Makes sense to me. May the RNG be kind to you.

Check on that Galleon near Hittite. If it goes north, it may have more troops aboard. Don't know how much damage was done to Gandhi by the first offload. There is also one of H's Frigates bombarding Bombay that we should be able to pick off using the Destroyers near Uppsala.

I think we will need to make some noise in Ottoman territory. We have the troops to do so. I don't think they will stand up long to Artillery, so better to use them imho. Of course, upgrading to Infantry is even better...

Good luck Frederiksberg. :thumbsup:

Found a couple of hours this evening so here is the half time report.

We are now at war with Hannibal and Mehmed and so far things are going according to plan.

Turn log:

Pre-turn: Do a little MM'ing - mainly for city growt in celtic cities. Do some scouting:

Bursa: Mach. gun, artillery, 3 rifles. 2 more artillery + 1 grenadier within striking range of Istanbul.
Konya: 3 rifles. One more rifle outside guarding the iron mine.
Ankara: 3 rifles.
Gaziantep: 2 rifles.

Leptis: 2 infantry, 2 SAM, 2 cavalry.
Carthage: 4 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 SAM.
Kerkouane: 3 infantry, 2 frigates, 2 galleons, 1 SAM, 2 cavalry, 1 longbow
Hadrumetum: 6 infantry, 2 SAM, 1 artillery
Sicca: 3 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 SAM. 1 SAM outside guarding uranium mine.
Kolhapur: 2 cavlary, 1 SAM, 1 artillery.

Delhi should be safe. It's defended by a rifle, 4 longbows and a cavalry and Hannibal only has 1 artillery and 1 cavalry - both wounded.

Start establishing galleon chain to Verlamion. Move a few troops and some galleons towards the south coast of our home continent.

1703 AD: Hippo has 3 infantry, 1 SAM. Continue setup of galleon chain. Move destroyers close to Carthage
1706 AD: Galleon chain in place, rifles loaded.
1709 AD: Deliver rifles in Istanbul. Physics deal is still posible and Hannibal have many frigates out in the open... Decide to go for the deal and take out Hannibals navy afterwards! Declare and sink 6 frigates, 1 galleon and 1 caravel. Hannibal still has 2 frigates and 2 galleons in Kerkouane and 1 frigate + 1galleon in Hadrumetum.
1712 AD: The counter attack on Istanbul went well. 2 artillery died and 1 withdrew severely damaged. Used a cannon to kill it off. This means that Mehmeds 3 most powerful units are gone!

I'm very pleased that Mehmeds artillery is gone. This probably means that we can start thinking of attacking the Ottoman cities Konia and Ankara. I got an idea for the Great General that we didn't discuss. If we make him a military instructor in Bibracte our drafted infantry should come out with 3XP instead of only 1XP which makes a difference since we should be able to draft infantry there every 1.5 turns (This city is a monster now. Want some infantry? Just push the button :D).

Intermediate save: 1712 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=152698&stc=1&d=1178668114)

I plan to do my 6 remaining turns tomorrow evening.

Fortune do indeed favor the bold. Nice job wiping out the Punic navy. After that show of force his remaining fleet will pretty much cower in port from here on in.

I like your idea of a MilInstructor in Bibracte. And it is truly a monster food producer so whipping/drafting infantry out of there is an excellent idea.

With Mehmed's heavy hitters off the board and reinforcements able to cosat down from Celtic lands all looks good for keeping the reinforcements running into the Sick Old Man's territory.

Report reads like one of Caesar's letters to the Senate from Gaul. Keep up the good work.

MI in Bibracte . . . wish I'd thought of that.

In anticipation of your continued success and my turn coming, I repeat my query: In what form would we want M as a vassal (if at all)?

Another thought: Are we better off attacking those Ottoman cities that are only defended by rifles with grenadiers rather than first upgrading them to infantry? The upgrading is expensive (lost gold if they are defeated), and I'm not sure how much it would improve the odds.

Report reads like one of Caesar's letters to the Senate from Gaul. Keep up the good work.

Don't expect any turn logs in latin though :D.

Another thought: Are we better off attacking those Ottoman cities that are only defended by rifles with grenadiers rather than first upgrading them to infantry? The upgrading is expensive (lost gold if they are defeated), and I'm not sure how much it would improve the odds.

I was thinking of attacking the cities defended by rifles ASAP anyway because if Mehmed has time to install machine guns there we will have a hard time capturing these cities without artillery.

In anticipation of your continued success and my turn coming, I repeat my query: In what form would we want M as a vassal (if at all)?

Why not wipe him out? That would mean no "we yearn to join our motherland" unhappyness. Only reason I see to vassalize is if we want to save some time and concentrate our forces on Hannibal.

I was thinking of attacking the cities defended by rifles ASAP anyway because if Mehmed has time to install machine guns there we will have a hard time capturing these cities without artillery.
I wish we knew what is inside Bursa for troops?

Konya should fall immediately if it still has only three Rifles in the same way in which you took Bibracte. Ankara in the same way.

Why not wipe him out? That would mean no "we yearn to join our motherland" unhappyness. Only reason I see to vassalize is if we want to save some time and concentrate our forces on Hannibal.
Yes, I agree this would probably be preferable. I was thinking that, after taking Bursa, Konya and Ankara, we might break Mehmed's Vassalage with Hannibal and sign a peace to get Artillery, allowing us to turn off research for a while to upgrade and still move forward in tech? Mehmed could be finished off whenever we want to? :mischief:

I keep trying to find a way to get Washington into this as well, to weaken him so we can clean him up too. However, he is still +10 with Hannibal. How can we bring that down? If it will help, Washington will give us 2 GPT for a resource, say Sugar?

Good idea on the Military Instructor in Bibracte. :goodjob: I didn't realize that it would help a drafted unit... :blush:

How can we put more cultural pressure on Thaenae? Perhaps we should switch Bjorgvin to culture as in 4 turns it will expand and its pop grows in 2 turns and it can work the Gold Hill and get some hammers towards the Trading Post?

May need a Jail in Old Sarai too, looking a bit ugly there and we need it to produce Naval units.

I was very happy to see Delhi intact, Indian and free of foreign units... :please:

Keep up the pressure Frederiksberg. Happy hunting! :hammer:

I wish we knew what is inside Bursa for troops?

Konya should fall immediately if it still has only three Rifles in the same way in which you took Bibracte. Ankara in the same way.

See my post #488 for info regarding this.

Yes, I agree this would probably be preferable. I was thinking that, after taking Bursa, Konya and Ankara, we might break Mehmed's Vassalage with Hannibal and sign a peace to get Artillery, allowing us to turn off research for a while to upgrade and still move forward in tech? Mehmed could be finished off whenever we want to? :mischief:

Making a separate peace with Mehmed when he is no more a vassal is certainly worth considering. Particularly since he has a machine gun in Bursa that will cause us trouble if we try to capture it before we have any artillery. My intention is to attack Konya and Ankara first hoping that Mehmed has not had time to put any machine guns there.

May need a Jail in Old Sarai too, looking a bit ugly there and we need it to produce Naval units.


I was thinking the same thing and maybe we should build it now - we probably have enough destroyers for the moment.

See my post #488 for info regarding this.
I read it last night and then forgot... :rolleyes:

I was thinking this morning about how to get Bursa, once Ankara and konya are secured. Seems we would need a couple of ships sent there to bombard the culture down. The most direct way is a landing from Galleons or Transports onto the food tile SW of the city, only one turn of exposure to counters. We'd need Cannons to take down the Machine Gun, but I think it is doable, especially if we have some upgraded units to Infantry by then and he hasn't built too many Artillery.

If we can get those 3 cities, the Vassal agreement should be broken and, perhaps, we can snag Artillery from him?

:beer: Success!! :hammer:

War is going fine allthough a bit slower than expected due to Mehmed discovering Assembly Line. Gandhi settled a city on our side of the strait - I have left it alone for now.

Turn log:

1715 AD: Adjust science slider to 80% to get Assembly line in 1 turn. Do some random bombarding of Carthaginian cities, pillage some fishing nets. Bombard Konya with destroyers.
1718 AD: Mehmed has got Assembly line now and has upgraded his rifles to infantry. Other bad news is that you need two pop to draft one infantry. And the city must be at least size 7. Means that Bibracte can only build one infantry every 3 turns. Military instructor now in Bibracte. Science slider is set to zero. Samsun has one infantry and one rifle. Konya and Ankara has 3 infantry each. Hannibal sent a stack of outdated units to Istanbul to "help" his vassal. I help myself to some promotions by attacking and destroying the stack without any losses. Gandhi lands a settler and a couple of rifles. Maybe we should leave them alone? It would enable Gandhi to get coal.
1721 AD: Upgrade some grenadiers to infantry. Unload two workers near Delhi to help Gandhi get the pillaged mines rebuilt.
1724 AD: More upgrading. Starting to assemble pillaging parties in Ning-hsia.
1727 AD: Capture Konya without losses. Two pillaging parties sail off. An indian fleet of 3 frigates and 3 galleons have left Lahore. Is it heading for Kolhapur?
1730 AD: Pillage uranium mine near Thaenae. Land pillage party near Kerkouane. Another pillage party is heading for Sicca. I'm not sure if it's wise to attack Ankara this turn so I leave this for team discussion. Turn is only half finished.
We are dominating the seas and should be able to make slow progress in the war. We may have a chance of removing Mehmed in the next turn set and Hannibal seems to be unable to do anything else than sit and wait for our attack.

Next player (CP I believe) should be aware of the Indian Fleet near Delhi. We have a couple of destroyers near that could be used to block the way to our cities and maybe persuade Gandhi to attack Kolhapur instead.

The save:
1730 AD (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/Xteam_SG004_AD1730_01.CivWarlordsSave)

Pics:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=152738&stc=1&d=1178750983
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=152739&stc=1&d=1178750983

:high5: Sounds good Frederiksberg!! Nice job on the pillaging runs. :rockon:

Thanks for some redemption... :mischief:

Roster:
Cactus Pete - UP
Gator - On Deck
RRAU
Bede
Sanabas
Leif
Frederiksberg - just played!! :goodjob: (we need to find a shorter nick?) :mischief:

Try to have a look at the save a bit later. ;)

Looking at the save, there are a couple of things to think about.
1. I don't know if it is worth it to us, but Washington will change to Free Religion for 860 Gold. He also doesn't have Artillery, which requires 8 turns of our research at 60% atm. It is cheaper to pay the 860 Gold, if we wish it to happen? Unless we can get Mehmed to cough it up... :mischief:

2. I think we should leave Chittagong alone for now. Let's see what happens?

3. I think we should aggressively pursue Mehmed until we have Ankara and Bursa, if possible.

4. Before we start intense combat with Hannibal, perhaps we should consider building some Jails in at least the key cities. War Weariness is starting to build up in many cities.

Time to sleep on it a while... ;)
:sleep:

My ignorance of how culture works has already become evident, and I’m afraid I need a bit more of an education. I would certainly hope to take Kohlapur during my turn set. Because Gandhi’s cultural borders do not come close to any of that city’s tiles, I don’t understand why there is a possibility of it revolting back to India (and therefore why we should “abandon it to its fate.”). It would seem to me that it is more likely to revolt back to H. Please enlighten me, so that I will understand what to do once I’ve captured it.

Ankara, Samsun, and Gaziantep are also all subject to capture during my set, but all of them are of problematic value due to cultural pressures. I will look to take on M as a vassal and gain tech in return for peace, but questions remain:
1) What techs would make that deal worthwhile to us (M has several that we are lacking)?
2) I’ve never been able to trade a city for anything (only gift them). Is there any way to get something from W or Izzie for M’s neighboring cities that fall into our hands?
3) If 1 & 2 won’t fly, do we want to hang onto the cities (and which ones) or raze them?

I’ve never built RxR’s. Do they accomplish anything besides speeding movement?

“I don't know if it is worth it to us, but Washington will change to Free Religion for 860 Gold. “ Do we want to make that deal?

“I think we should leave Chittagong alone for now. Let's see what happens?”

What seems to be happening is that G is going all out to send reinforcements to the city, though why he has launched a fleet from Delhi (rather than simply sail across from Bombay) puzzles me. What are the consequences of Gandhi not having coal?

Our blockades of G’s cities in the straits are no longer in place. I’m concerned that this may lead to constant troops landing on our side of the straits and that this effort will, in the future, not only necessitate further conflict with G but also distract him from taking over and/or settling Carthaginian territory.

I hope to play some during the day on Thursday, so advice at your earliest convenience would be appreciated.

1. I don't know if it is worth it to us, but Washington will change to Free Religion for 860 Gold.

Good observation. I think we should do the deal unless we need to use the money for some immediate upgrades. 860 Gold corresponds to upgrade of 4 grenadiers.

3. I think we should aggressively pursue Mehmed until we have Ankara and Bursa, if possible.

Getting rid of Mehmed would indeed be nice. Bursa is a problem because it has a machine gun defending and we need artillery to take it out.

4. Before we start intense combat with Hannibal, perhaps we should consider building some Jails in at least the key cities. War Weariness is starting to build up in many cities.

War weariness will go down when Mehmed is gone - remember that WW is calculated per civ. We could start building jails in cities with high pop and low production. High production cities can build jails when the need becomes evident. Theatres combined with the culture slider migth be more efficient though.

My ignorance of how culture works has already become evident, and I’m afraid I need a bit more of an education. I would certainly hope to take Kohlapur during my turn set. Because Gandhi’s cultural borders do not come close to any of that city’s tiles, I don’t understand why there is a possibility of it revolting back to India (and therefore why we should “abandon it to its fate.”). It would seem to me that it is more likely to revolt back to H. Please enlighten me, so that I will understand what to do once I’ve captured it.

When you have captured the city put the cursor over the culture bar and you will see the probability of a revolt. Indian culture will still be there due to the indian population. The less military inside the city the greater chance of revolt.

1) What techs would make that deal worthwhile to us (M has several that we are lacking)?


My tech priorities would be 1. Artillery 2. Electricity (brings us closer to tanks) and 3. Communism (State Property, spies)

2) I’ve never been able to trade a city for anything (only gift them). Is there any way to get something from W or Izzie for M’s neighboring cities that fall into our hands?

Don't expect to get anything at all.

3) If 1 & 2 won’t fly, do we want to hang onto the cities (and which ones) or raze them?

Bursa and maybe Ankara we could hang on to. The remaining cities should be razed.

I’ve never built RxR’s. Do they accomplish anything besides speeding movement?

Mines yield an extra hammer when railroads are built there.

“I don't know if it is worth it to us, but Washington will change to Free Religion for 860 Gold. “ Do we want to make that deal?

I think we do but maybe not immediately if you estimate that you need some more upgrades ASAP. With free religion there is much less chance that Washington will be drawn into the current wars and his relationship with Gandhi will improve.

“I think we should leave Chittagong alone for now. Let's see what happens?”

What seems to be happening is that G is going all out to send reinforcements to the city, though why he has launched a fleet from Delhi (rather than simply sail across from Bombay) puzzles me. What are the consequences of Gandhi not having coal?

Fleet came from further up north. I was hoping we could deflect it in the direction of Kolhapur by blocking with our destroyers. Coal enables coal plants and thus increased output from factories. Would speed up building the space ship.

Our blockades of G’s cities in the straits are no longer in place. I’m concerned that this may lead to constant troops landing on our side of the straits and that this effort will, in the future, not only necessitate further conflict with G but also distract him from taking over and/or settling Carthaginian territory.

There is only one indian ship in the strait (galleon outside Chittagong). We can deal with that when we know what is going on with the fleet of 6 ships outside Delhi. I'm not convinced that Gandhi will use Chittagong for offense. Would it hurt to wait a little and see what happens? We can reinstall the blockade as soon as the Indian fleet outside Delhi is dealt with.