Welcome to your C_IV Warlords SGOTM 4 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

The Game
This Monarch difficulty game is on a Standard size, Gyathaar-special, fractal map, at Epic speed, against 7 rivals including India. All victory conditions are enabled except Diplomatic, but the laurels for this contest will be awarded to the teams who achieve the fastest Space defeat by Gandhi.

Versions
This game will be played in Warlords Version 2.08 only.

It will be played using the current version of the HoF Mod. This is version 2.08.003 for Windows. There are insufficient Mac players to form a Mac team. so it will be played in Windows only.

If later versions of Warlords or the HoF Mod are released they cannot be used for this game.

Your start file will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php) at midnight, server local time, at the start of February 23.

Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm4_start_small.jpg (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm4_start_large.jpg)

Map Parameters
Playable Leader/Civ - Ragnar of The Vikings
Rivals - 7 civs including Gandhi (who is locked in war with Ragnar)
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Monarch
Landform - Fractal, cylindrical, medium sea level, temperate
Game Speed - Epic
Diplomatic Victory Disabled
All other settings are defaults

Notes

Please visit the C-IV Warlords SGOTM reference thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208462) to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.

Warlords v.2.08 is supported for this SGOTM. No other versions can be used, and you will have to stick with the same version throughout the game.

Teams will compete for up to four awards - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher.

Awards will be given to teams who achieve Space defeats to India in the least turns.

All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

Please enjoy the game :)

Welcome to Cactus Pete!! :thumbsup: :high5:

And welcome back to the rest of you X-Teamers!! :hatsoff:

I'll go and PM everyone. This one should be interesting. Hopefully, a lot of discussion on how to achieve getting Gandhi into space. I hope we can actually get it to happen this time.

The C3C version of this got incredibly frustrating. This one should be a lot of fun.

Please note that you have an additional new player - Frederiksberg.

Welcome Frederiksburg:D

:mischief: Can we call you Freddy?

Yes, welcome Frederiksberg!! :cheers:

As we have two new team members, I thought I would quickly go over how we generally operate as a team.

The person who holds the mouse is the decision maker for each turn set played. We all should provide input and bring up strategies, micromanaging, tech tree decisions, etc. as we feel the issues are important. The person playing the turn set should weigh the discussion and then decide what they think is best.

During discussion, it is very helpful to explain why you think something is important. This provides rationale for the mouse holder and education for the rest of us, and any folks who might be reading and following our thread.

Gator has told me he will be quite busy over the next couple of weeks and has asked that I keep track of the roster and keep in touch with AlanH and Gyathaar should we have any problems. I am willing to do this if you all wish me to.

If anyone has anything else to add, please post. And if our new members have any questions, please post them as well.

I'm looking forward to this, having played the Civ III version and found we couldn't launch a hamburger off a building!! :rolleyes:

I'm looking forward to this, having played the Civ III version and found we couldn't launch a hamburger off a building!! :rolleyes:

:rotfl:


Did you guys build both the hamburger and the catapult? ;) I'd suspect you'd need both :p :joke:

Checking in and welcome to CactusPete and Frederiksberg.

Ah, SGOTM9, sweet memories. Didn't achieve the Wooden Spoon in that one and led the only team that lost by culture to a third party, Brennus. <Checks to see if Brennus is on the roster for this game. Hmm, can't see yet>

Lay on, leif!

:rotfl:
Did you guys build both the hamburger and the catapult? ;) I'd suspect you'd need both :p :joke:
Well, we tried to build a bunch of very productive cities and "give" them to Gandhi to manage and build space ship parts.

What we found out was that he didn't have enough Luxuries and the resistance tore the cities apart. The population dwindled and all Gandhi wanted to do was build military to get revenge against us. Not a very successful blood pact. Well, we did fulfill our part! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Welcome Frederiksburg:D

:mischief: Can we call you Freddy?

:D Why not - we like to keep things informal in Denmark.


Yes, welcome Frederiksberg!!

As we have two new team members, I thought I would quickly go over how we generally operate as a team.

The person who holds the mouse is the decision maker for each turn set played. We all should provide input and bring up strategies, micromanaging, tech tree decisions, etc. as we feel the issues are important. The person playing the turn set should weigh the discussion and then decide what they think is best.

During discussion, it is very helpful to explain why you think something is important. This provides rationale for the mouse holder and education for the rest of us, and any folks who might be reading and following our thread.

Thanks! I look forward to playing with you guys! We played pretty much the same way in Memphis Blues where I played SGOTM1-3. Normally we would try to reach a consensus and I think it's fine that the mouse holder is the one that draws the conclusion of the discussion. After all you need to understand the strategy in order to implement it.

My thoughts so far is that we should probably aim for a game with a high tech pace i.e. we should trade a lot with the AI to ensure a high tech level for all civs. And we probably have to allow Gandhi to capture some selected cities of ours. Maybe this is a game where spies could be really useful to stop the other AI's from launching through sabotaging their space ship parts.

Regarding the starting position we might consider moving to the plains hill for the extra hammer. We also need to discuss if we want an early religion - it should be possible because we are financial and can work the 3 commerce coast tiles and the lake.

First saves had Space Victory disabled. Gyaathar replaced them but if anybody downloaded the original replace it with this one (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4//Xteam_SG004_BC4000_01.CivWarlordsSave)

For reference

Opps.. seems I made a bad mistake here.. I somehow managed to disable space victory instead of diplomatic... if you havent started playing yet, then please wait untill I can replace the start files



Ok.. all starting saves replaced.. if someone already played with the original save, then let me know and I will modify the save you have at one point (no rush thou.. still plenty of time before you get that far into the game that it matters :P )


:rotfl:

And let's hope Gandhi is not on a barren rock in the middle of an inland sea....

:rotfl:

And let's hope Gandhi is not on a barren rock in the middle of an inland sea....
About to go and take a look. You know that is what it will be, you just have to know!!
:lol: :lol: :lol:

No sign of Gandhi that we can see at the moment? :rolleyes:

Looks to me like we are on a plains hill. I was hoping for a river as we are financial.

Unless there is something really nice nearby, this start is food rich and has a lot of hills for hammers. The shortage is in commerce, although we do have the coastal tiles that we can use and once we grow, cottages.

I agree that we want to try and keep a fast tech pace. However, we also need a good strong military as we'll need to clear some territory for Gandhi to, perhaps, expand into. I think the ultimate goal will be a bi-polar world, us and Gandhi, with Gandhi having the cities he needs for the production of a Space Ship while we ride herd over the other civs to ensure they don't meet any other victory condition.

In trading techs, we sure hope that they find their way to Gandhi. We'll need to get some scouts out and find what kind of map we have and where the resources are.

Research - Agriculture, to Bronze, Sailing and then on to Writing and Alphabet?

EDIT - Interesting discussion in the maintenance thread concerning making Gandhi a Vassal of us or someone else. Everyone ought to take the time to read it if you have a few minutes.

Looks to me like we are on a plains hill. I was hoping for a river as we are financial.

You're right! I thought it was a grassland hill.

Unless there is something really nice nearby, this start is food rich and has a lot of hills for hammers. The shortage is in commerce, although we do have the coastal tiles that we can use and once we grow, cottages.

Settle in place then? We would have high production working the hills and using the whip.

I agree that we want to try and keep a fast tech pace. However, we also need a good strong military as we'll need to clear some territory for Gandhi to, perhaps, expand into. I think the ultimate goal will be a bi-polar world, us and Gandhi, with Gandhi having the cities he needs for the production of a Space Ship while we ride herd over the other civs to ensure they don't meet any other victory condition.

Truly bipolar is probably not what we want - at least until very late in the game because it leaves us no way of speeding up research for Gandhi by tech trade. Ideally we would like the other civs to have good tech pace and rotten production and I guess we should be looking for a military implementation here :mischief:.

In trading techs, we sure hope that they find their way to Gandhi. We'll need to get some scouts out and find what kind of map we have and where the resources are.

If we primarily trade away techs that Gandhi doesn't have we migth be able to help them find their way to him. We should also select trading partners that we know are willing to do deals with Gandhi.

Research - Agriculture, to Bronze, Sailing and then on to Writing and Alphabet?

Unless we want early religion.

EDIT - Interesting discussion in the maintenance thread concerning making Gandhi a Vassal of us or someone else. Everyone ought to take the time to read it if you have a few minutes.

I tend to agree with Lexad - making Gandhi a Vassal would make the game too easy. But Gyathaar says it's not possible since Gandhi won't talk to us at any time.

EDIT: According to Gyathaar it's possible to get peace with Gandhi if he becomes the Vassal of someone else and you make peace with the master. But it might be disallowed. If we are close to Gandhi attacking him early to achieve this goal would probably be the fastest road to victory.

Truly bipolar is probably not what we want - at least until very late in the game because it leaves us no way of speeding up research for Gandhi by tech trade. Ideally we would like the other civs to have good tech pace and rotten production and I guess we should be looking for a military implementation here :mischief:.
No, I agree we don't want this until the end. I think when I talk about bipolar, I mean that we are in a position to manage things in a way that does not allow anyone to break out towards domination or cultural victories. In addition, Gandhi must be able to grow to sufficient size to keep him productive and able to research, but he cannot achieve any other victory but Space Ship. So, we will need to create a powerful Gandhi, but one that we can control through our Blood Pact.


Unless we want early religion.
I don't know if it is worth the research, especially if we miss it. We start with Hunting and Fishing, not the best place to go for early religion? Our best shot may be Code of Laws?


I tend to agree with Lexad - making Gandhi a Vassal would make the game too easy. But Gyathaar says it's not possible since Gandhi won't talk to us at any time.

EDIT: According to Gyathaar it's possible to get peace with Gandhi if he becomes the Vassal of someone else and you make peace with the master. But it might be disallowed. If we are close to Gandhi attacking him early to achieve this goal would probably be the fastest road to victory.
I also read where making Gandhi a Vassal is not disallowed. If the opportunity presents itself, we can make that decision then.

EDIT2 -
AlanH posted in the maintenance thread and then it disappeared. I keep an eye on it? :hmm:

An early religion is east to get with the VIkings if you sacrifice production for it.

Settle in place is clearly the way to go, Mining then Bronze Working, then Agriculture, Animal Husbandry to Writing (I seem to remember we can skip Pottery if we go that path.

Worker first, then Warrior then Settler at size 2. First and second citizens work the lake and a forest, or one of the bare hills (mined) until we can grow corn and feed the pigs with squeezin's from the whiskey we'll be making.

Use the forests to get that first settler out.

Of course if we are on a nine tile island all the above is wrong.

Worker first, then Warrior then Settler at size 2. First and second citizens work the lake and a forest, or one of the bare hills (mined) until we can grow corn and feed the pigs with squeezin's from the whiskey we'll be making.
I have had some success with a Work Boat first, timed to complete with the growth to size 2, and then a Worker. Works pretty slick and speeds up the production of workers and settlers.

EDIT - I see a Clam near our hill. :D

EDIT2 - Please read THIS. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5136068&postcount=33)
It is a rule change that resolves the Vassal issue, I think.

I'd agree with the settle in place. It sounds like we need to agree on research path.

Early religions and their shrine are nice for getting additional income that can boost your research. On the other hand, getting our food bonuses up and going is important to implement the whip.......which we can't do until we get bronze working.......

I haven't played as the vikings in a while, they haven't come up on my usual all random settings that I play lately. What's everyone else's thoughts?

What's everyone else's thoughts?
Just to be clear, I'm waiting for Gator and Cactus Pete to check in and add to the discussion before even thinking of starting. Gator should be around tomorrow and I've PM'ed Cactus Pete. As we are still working on SGOTM03, I don't see any rush, although I'd like to get someone started early in the week. :D

No rush. I'm still playing SGOTM3 as well.

I'm not sure that going for founding hinduism is any good I just wanted to point out the possibility and start a discussion. It would probably only work with the workboat first option i.e. going Myst-Poly while building wb and working the lake and the clam tile for maximum commerce. There is a high probability of getting hindu first this way but the question is if it's worth delaying development for this.

We have a pretty good production potential with all the forrests and hills and that makes me think about building a couple of wonders. Any suggestions now? It could of course depend on what resources we find (marble, stone, copper) that can further speed up the process. I'm bringing this up because it might influence the tech path.

It sounds like some of you have been playing around with some test games. Could you post one?

Nice that the Vassal issue was settled - it would have been pretty easy to get peace with Gandhi otherwise.

It sounds like some of you have been playing around with some test games. Could you post one?
Actually, the testing comes from preparing for WOTM06. Just a handful of random games played as Ragnar. Starting with Fishing and a food resource allowed me to grow to pop 2 and have a food resource ready to work when the Work Boat popped. Working this tile also gives us three commerce and helps to speed up research a bit early on. Playing Epic will require, with the additional hammer settling on the Plains Hill, around 18 turns for a worker. By that time we can easily have a Work Boat and a second pop point I'm pretty sure. :hmm:

Made a test game myself:

SGOTM4 Test (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=148748&stc=1&d=1172423017)

Did a couple of trials:

Tech: Myst-Poly-Agri-Mining-BW
Builds: Wboat-worker-warrior-settler

Done in 2290BC with corn farmed and one hill mined. Worker was idle for 7 turns. Hinduism founded.

Tech:Mining-Agri-BW-AH
Builds: Wboat-worker-warrior-settler

Done in 2500BC with corn farmed and one hill mined and one forrest chopped.

Nidaros size 3 in both cases.

Hopefully you guys can come up with something better ;)

If we have to make a choice I would say Path 2 is the better choice. Seven turns better in fact. Not having the early religion hurts less than not having the settler.

Much depends of course on what is in the fog, but all things being equal I would play to the plan that produces the settler faster.

I tend to agree. But there are many other options:

Tech: Agri-AH-Mining-BW-(Wheel)
Builds: worker-wboat-warrior-settler-warrior-warrior

Done in 2260BC with corn farmed, pigs pastured, one hill mined, one forrest chopped and two pop whipped. Nidaros is size 4 and Wheel is due in two turns.

Could have gone directly for writing also since we don't need a granary with this much food available 6+6+4 from corn, pig and clam.

Since we would like a fast tech pace in this game exploring should have high priority. The sooner we meet other civs the sooner we can start trading techs. Or modify our plans if we don't find any. Build an early wboat for this purpose?

Just played a couple of starts. For me, the big question is research (commerce) versus production.

In the first try, research went Mining => Bronze => Agriculture => AH => Writing Production was Work Boat, Worker, Warrior, Settler. These were all completed by 2440, although Nidaros was still size 2, almost to 3. When building the Worker, I worked the Clam and the lake, for +6 commerce. Really speeds up research while slowing the Worker 2 turns.

The second try, I researched Mining => Agriculture => Bronze and then went to Writing as I popped AH from a hut, not a good comparison. However, this was a bit slower as I couldn't chop until later. However, I used the same research scheme as above, working the high commerce tiles, which made the chop more important.

On another note, I received a PM from Gator who will be delayed in joining us for a few more days. I have not heard from Cactus Pete yet, so I hope he is able to join us soon.

Do we think we are ready to start? If we need some more discussion, that is fine. We have still not heard from two of our players yet.

I was thinking of this roster order:
Frederiksberg - UP
rrau - On Deck
Bede
Cactus Pete
Leif
Gator

Frederiksberg can start us with 40 turns followed by rrau with 30 turns and then each of us playing 20 turns as we continue.

Comments/suggestions?

I can probably play wednesday evening (CET) unless my plane is delayed (Away on business trip). I suppose this is soon enough?

I'm leaning towards not founding hinduism and prioritize getting out the settler early instead. Worker first and workboat first both seem to be very feasible opening strategies allthough the settler comes a little later in the worker first trial. On the other hand Nidaros grows more and production increases rapidly when BW is discovered and we can whip and chop. The workboat first is the most flexible path though because we get techs a little faster and have less problems keeping our worker busy. Of course he can always do some prechopping when we have learned BW but good tech pace is nice anyway if we want to do an Oracle slingshot to CoL or maybe even Metal Casting.

I'm all for flexibility and faster learning!

I can probably play wednesday evening (CET) unless my plane is delayed (Away on business trip). I suppose this is soon enough?
Yes, it is soon enough. No plane delays allowed, that always stinks!! :cringe:

It would be very nice to have BW before the settler pops, in case we can claim some copper. :thumbsup: And the chops sure help. :D

I was thinking of this roster order:
Frederiksberg - UP
rrau - On Deck
Bede
Cactus Pete
Leif
Gator

Frederiksberg can start us with 40 turns followed by rrau with 30 turns and then each of us playing 20 turns as we continue.

Comments/suggestions?

I see one minor problem there...

I see one minor problem there...
:blush: :blush: :blush: :blush:
I really shouldn't do that so early in the morning! My sincere apologies... :cringe: :hammer2:
:please: forgive me.

How about we try again.

Roster:
Frederiksberg - UP
rrau - On Deck
Bede
Sanabas
Cactus Pete
Leif
Gator

OK - I've got the save and will play wednesday evening CET.

My plan is something like this:

Tech: Mining-Agri-BW-AH
Builds: Wboat-worker-warrior-settler

Or as much of this as I have time for within the 40 turns.

I will check back here before I play and comments/suggestions are welcome :)

Plan sounds good. Might look at whether Bronze might help before Agriculture.

The difference in number of turns really isn't that great though.

EDIT - And watch out for Bears in the woods... :mischief:

Good luck! :thumbsup:

Disclaimer: I haven't even opened my Warlords copy yet, but I understand starting priorities to be much the same. If I'm wrong, you may all consider the rest of this post as incoherent rambling :confused:

If this were a gotm, I'd have scouted the plain hills N NW, either with the scout (stay in place with the settler) or with the settler on the first turn.
Looks like there are more hills to the N and NW of that position and all food resources would still be in use.
Reason I'd scout first is of course you'll want the city to be coastal.

I think I'd tech: Mining --> BW --> AGR and build WB --> Worker --> Warrior --> Settler or even WB --> Worker --> Worker --> Warrior --> Settler
That last option means you'll need more hills in play than the three at the start cause it's chopping mayhem (and I love a food/hammer rich capitol, I can get commerce in my other cities).
The WB will be out after size 2 is reached so delay the Warrior until the Wheat is irrigated.

Hi Capt. Nice to hear from you. :D

The problem with N and NW is that it is no longer on the coast, so no Work Boat. N and N might be an interesting move, but we'd lose the chop! :cringe:

I also like a lot of hammers in the capital. But I am greedy, I like to have a river too. ;)

I am looking forward to finding Gandhi. Probably will see him when our city expands? :lol: :lol: :lol:

The problem with N and NW is that it is no longer on the coast, so no Work Boat. N and N might be an interesting move, but we'd lose the chop! :cringe:

Are you sure? I can't tell from the screen what kind of tile N N N is. If it's coast, you've got access for your WB.
It kinda looks like the coast line continues straight N from the forest N of the clams. But even that wouldn't be conclusive evidence cause the coast line could turn down south again after that [pimp]

You'll lose a chop and might end up with even more sea tiles than you have now, so I wouldn't settle N N in any case.

With the luck I've been having lately, there's probably metal N NW anyway, so don't listen to me :lol:

With the luck I've been having lately, there's probably metal N NW anyway, so don't listen to me :lol:
Your luck can't be any worse than mine lately!! :cringe: :hammer2: :rolleyes:

I have played my turns. Things went as planned - no nasty surprises and even a bit of luck as we popped Masonry from a hut :dance: .

4000BC: Found Nidaros in place. First Tech is Mining. First build is Workboat.

3850BC: Meet Genghis Khan down south. As a fellow warmonger he respects us (cautious).

3610BC: Pop Masonry from a hut!! I also see Indian borders. It must be Delhi. The Indians are separated from us by a narrow strait.

3400 BC: Agriculture discovered.

2890 BC: Bronze Working discovered. We have bronze 3N1E of Nidaros.

2830 BC: Warrior built in Nidaros. Start settler.

2800 BC: Start chop.

I followed the plan workboat-worker-warrior-settler and Mining-Agriculture-BW-AH (Due in 10 turns). The settler will be built 10 turns from now due to the chop started this turn. My idea was to continue with building a mine on the plains hill and after that make a pasture for the pigs. I didn't revolt to slavery yet but we should probably do that before we found our 2nd city. Our scout got attacked by a panther and has just recently recovered his full strength. He's now heading south to find the Mongolian cities. The scouting he did to the north revealed that the "Indian Strait" is actually a bay or maybe even what we in Denmark (and Norway) call a "fjord". Still a mountain range is preventing us from reaching Indian lands.

With the settler coming out soon I guess it's dotmap time. My initial thought is to settle the city NW of Nidaros to grab the gold and the fish for some growth and happyness. The bronze spot has no nearby food so I think we should wait with this. It will anyway be within the borders of Nidaros when they expand next time (in 36 turns).

The save:

Scandinavia 2800 BC (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/Xteam_SG004_BC2800_01.CivWarlordsSave)

Autolog:

Turn 0, 4000 BC: Nidaros has been founded.

Turn 8, 3760 BC: You have discovered Mining!

Turn 12, 3640 BC: Buddhism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 13, 3610 BC: You have discovered Masonry!

Turn 20, 3400 BC: You have discovered Agriculture!

Turn 30, 3100 BC: You have trained a Worker in Nidaros. Work has now begun on a Warrior.

Turn 31, 3070 BC: Barbarian's Panther (2.00) vs Xteam's Scout (3.20)
Turn 31, 3070 BC: Combat Odds: 4.4%
Turn 31, 3070 BC: (Animal Combat: +20%)
Turn 31, 3070 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 31, 3070 BC: (Class Animal Combat: +100%)
Turn 31, 3070 BC: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 31, 3070 BC: Barbarian's Panther is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 31, 3070 BC: Barbarian's Panther is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 31, 3070 BC: Xteam's Scout is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 31, 3070 BC: Xteam's Scout is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 31, 3070 BC: Xteam's Scout is hit for 15 (55/100HP)
Turn 31, 3070 BC: Xteam's Scout is hit for 15 (40/100HP)
Turn 31, 3070 BC: Xteam's Scout is hit for 15 (25/100HP)
Turn 31, 3070 BC: Barbarian's Panther is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 31, 3070 BC: Barbarian's Panther is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 31, 3070 BC: Xteam's Scout has defeated Barbarian's Panther!

Turn 37, 2890 BC: You have discovered Bronze Working!
Turn 37, 2890 BC: Genghis Khan adopts Slavery!

Pics:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=148963&stc=1&d=1172695949
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=148964&stc=1&d=1172695949

Like I said - dotmap time :) .

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=148965&stc=1&d=1172697747

I like this spot because the new city can share the pigs with Nidaros and thus grow rapidly from the beginning. We also get the fish tile and all the gold within the fat cross and finally it has access to fresh water and to the Bay of India. Another feature - though less important is that it seals off the north of the continent for later use.

:high5: Looks very nice!! Good work Frederiksberg!! :goodjob:

Looks like we have room for two nice commerce cities, our capital as a production city and then a few others.

EDIT - Yes, I agree with your second city site selection. But we need to be able to protect it as Gandhi is close at hand... ;)

With Gandhi so close, I think we'll need The Wheel to connect the Copper and Sailing to build a couple of Triremes to protect our fisheries? To develop the area around the Gems, Iron Working. Do we head for Alphabet and try to trade or research these things by ourselves?

We'll also need to think about a small army to protect against Gandhi's landings, although if he wants to build a couple of nice cities for us, we'll take them?

Roster:
rrau - UP
Bede - On Deck
Sanabas
Cactus Pete
Leif
Gator
Frederiksberg - just played! :goodjob:

Looks like Gandhi has a nice research start, no desert islands like in C III.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Does anyone have a link to the latest HOF mod or can tell me where to find it? I try to search for HOF Mod and it pulls up way too many threads.

@rrau - go to the home page and look for the Hall of Fame line in the links box to the left. You will find a Mods button there

Or go to here (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/mods/HOF-2.08.003.exe)

Thanks :)

Thanks Bede.

I was over in the SGOTM12 forum for Civ III. :blush:

That's a beautiful starting island for a science game ;)

Here's a preliminary dotmap. There's some spaces between cities, though.

I'd personally settle: red, blue, pink (to keep Ghandi from getting a toe hold on our lands - or I guess we could let him settle there, but I doubt he'd get a worker out and improve it with our borders so close) then green

Looks like we have room for two nice commerce cities, our capital as a production city and then a few others.

EDIT - Yes, I agree with your second city site selection. But we need to be able to protect it as Gandhi is close at hand... ;)

With Gandhi so close, I think we'll need The Wheel to connect the Copper and Sailing to build a couple of Triremes to protect our fisheries? To develop the area around the Gems, Iron Working. Do we head for Alphabet and try to trade or research these things by ourselves?

We'll also need to think about a small army to protect against Gandhi's landings, although if he wants to build a couple of nice cities for us, we'll take them?


Yes, there are some very nice commerce city sites in the jungle (as shown on rrau's dotmap) - particularly when we have researched IW and Calendar.

We are pretty weak right now and even though Gandhi is probably not a threat now or even soon we should think about fog busting and barb defence. I think we should move the warrior to the proposed (red dot) city site soon and fortify him there. That will provide maximum protection when the settler gets there.

Wheel is probably a good next tech that will enable us to hook the gold. Mysticism is another one in order to be able to chop an obelisk in our new city. What about the Oracle? We have to go for it soon if we want it. I think I remember that the CS slingshot is now difficult because we have learned Masonry but we could take Metal Casting as the free tech instead. Building forges makes good sense because they give us extra happy faces with gems and gold. Otherwise I agree that Sailing and IW are techs we need. I'm not sure we can get much tech trade with only one trading partner (Genghis) so I would postpone research of Alphabet until we have met more civs.

Finally, checking in. Been way too busy at work and down for a few days with a pinched nerve in my neck. Doing much better now.

Should be an interesting game. I'm wondering if we can weaken some of the other AI's and get them to become vassals of Gandhi later in the game to help grow his empire and resources.

I don't think we want too many to become his vassals or we won't be able to trade them techs to in turn trade to Ghandi.

Wheel is probably a good next tech that will enable us to hook the gold. Mysticism is another one in order to be able to chop an obelisk in our new city. What about the Oracle? We have to go for it soon if we want it. I think I remember that the CS slingshot is now difficult because we have learned Masonry but we could take Metal Casting as the free tech instead. Building forges makes good sense because they give us extra happy faces with gems and gold. Otherwise I agree that Sailing and IW are techs we need. I'm not sure we can get much tech trade with only one trading partner (Genghis) so I would postpone research of Alphabet until we have met more civs.
After The Wheel, I would really like to consider going to Writing and chop Libraries instead of Obelisk. I think we need to get at least one Work Boat out scouting to see if we meet any other civs. If we do, then Alphabet for trading, if not, then we can reconsider our future course.

It will be interesting to see if our Scout finds anyone south of us and how far away they are. I have a feeling we may need Astronomy fairly early in this game. So, as soon as we get the opportunity somewhere, we should probably get a Scientist started, another reason to head for Writing.

And before the Blue City site will be of much value, we'll need Iron Working. Libraries in those Commerce cities should help speed research.

I think we need to be careful with Vassals as, with permanent war with Gandhi, it will kill trade opportunities and may lead to unbearable war weariness.

You know, I just remembered that part of the problem in the C-III version of this game was war weariness on Gandhi and his total loss of population because of it. I will tried to read up on C-IV war weariness. We're prolly going to need to use every war weariness mitigation technique we can to keep our cities productive later. The more resources we can claim or trade for, the happier we will be. Another reason to be wary of Vassals.

EDIT - Nice to see you back Gator.

After The Wheel, I would really like to consider going to Writing and chop Libraries instead of Obelisk. I think we need to get at least one Work Boat out scouting to see if we meet any other civs. If we do, then Alphabet for trading, if not, then we can reconsider our future course.

I'm not sure that Writing is that urgent. Our commerce cities have not been founded yet and that's where the Libraries will make a difference. There could be other considerations putting Sailing, IW or Mysticism higher on the list. Scouting with a wboat seems like a good idea - we could chop or whip one in Nidaros and send it north to look for other civs in the Indian part of our continent.

It will be interesting to see if our Scout finds anyone south of us and how far away they are. I have a feeling we may need Astronomy fairly early in this game. So, as soon as we get the opportunity somewhere, we should probably get a Scientist started, another reason to head for Writing.

Since we haven't met anyone else yet my guess is that we only have Genghis to the south. I met the mongolian scout after 5 turns so he must be close meaning that there could be competition for the blue and green city sites. I wouldn't be surprised if there's only us Genghis and Gandhi on our continent and that would make Optics a high priority to be able to start tech trading. Astronomy would be nice to get resource trades as well but it might be something that can wait. We should probably avoid researching Meditation in order to block a Great Scientist from lightbulbing Philo instead of Optics, Astro etc.

And before the Blue City site will be of much value, we'll need Iron Working. Libraries in those Commerce cities should help speed research.

IW should probably come before Writing so that we can get those gems hooked. If Genghis is as close as I expect we could also use some swords for an early attack.

I think we need to be careful with Vassals as, with permanent war with Gandhi, it will kill trade opportunities and may lead to unbearable war weariness.

I agree. We can't control what our Vassals do and we don't want them to attack Gandhi. Gandhi having vassals also look unfavourable unless they are small and insignificant anyway.

You know, I just remembered that part of the problem in the C-III version of this game was war weariness on Gandhi and his total loss of population because of it. I will tried to read up on C-IV war weariness. We're prolly going to need to use every war weariness mitigation technique we can to keep our cities productive later. The more resources we can claim or trade for, the happier we will be. Another reason to be wary of Vassals.


WW grows when you do combat on foreign territory WW (http://forums.civfanatics.com/archive/index.php/t-181512.html)

If we want to limit Gandhis WW (and I guess we do) we could try a blocade of his coastal cities. The AI are reluctant to do naval attacks coming out of a city for some odd reason (At least in the Vanilla version - don't know if this was fixed with the improved AI). Anyway it might be worth trying. We could build some triremes and park them outside his coastal cities in order to trap his forces and limit the actual combat as much as possible. If we allow Gandhi to come to us we won't have any WW but he will get a lot of it when he does fruitless attacks and loose units on enemy ground.

Any thought regarding wonders? I see two interesting options: The Oracle because it's a very efficient way of converting hammers to beakers and the Colossus because it's very cheap when we get copper hooked.

I haven't tried it too many times on monarch yet, but what about an oracle sling to Machinery - doable?
When I have tried it, I've gone straight for BW and then Pottery --> MC, but I've made it every time...
With all the forests, hammers aren't a concern, but I doubt you can research the necessary techs to get there. Might be worth testing - even more so with zerks waiting with Machinery (only need an SGL for CS [pimp]).

We are in a tech race? :hmm: Libraries increase beakers and that is what we will need. For me, I think we need to push out 2 to 3 settlers, with some Axes in between in order to claim the rich resources we see as quickly as possible to ensure they are ours. Libraries should be the first build in those commerce cities and we should chop them out as much as possible. Priority in those cities to growth and then commerce. Once we have our cities established and defended, then we can look towards Wonder builds and getting ourselves in a position for the next step. :scan:

Speaking of Wonders, I think Colossus would be very nice to have. I think The Great Library is important as well in a science race. While the Oracle would be nice, unless we can find a way to do some trading to pick up the necessary techs, researching that line kind of takes us away from the more necessary techs; Wheel, IW, Writing, Alphabet? Beyond this, our recons will prolly tell us what else will be important, like Optics?

While it probably sounds as though I am locked into this direction, I am open to other ways. But please explain the benefits of doing that as they are not obvious to me. :crazyeye:

Good discussion, by the way. Thanks. :D

We need military and happiness techs, that is all. Take the path from Mysticism through the Oracle, then take Metal Casting (or Machinery) or Hereditary rule as the bonus.

Knowledge techs and the knoweldge wonders should go to the AI with the purpose of making it easier for Gandhi to acquire tech through trade from the AI. Researching it ourselves then spreading it around the world is not the most efficient way to accomplish that as the AI get research discounts while the human pays full price.

So rather than chasing the chimera of tech leadership, content outselves with staying in the middle of the pack, and trimming any beards that threaten to grow too long with wisdom.

Our empire should be built on the mundane basis of bread, circuses and blood. Let others gaze at stars and comtemplate the wonders ofthe galaxies until the time comes to cut them off at the knees.

OK, so we use our military techs to clear a path for Gandhi to expand and keep the other AI civs productive, so they can research and trade?

I guess I'm trying to figure out what our purpose is then, to get out of the way and manage the game to prevent anyone else from challenging Gandhi?

Perhaps this will be more dull than I thought? ;)

We are in a tech race? :hmm: Libraries increase beakers and that is what we will need. For me, I think we need to push out 2 to 3 settlers, with some Axes in between in order to claim the rich resources we see as quickly as possible to ensure they are ours. Libraries should be the first build in those commerce cities and we should chop them out as much as possible. Priority in those cities to growth and then commerce. Once we have our cities established and defended, then we can look towards Wonder builds and getting ourselves in a position for the next step. :scan:

I'm not saying that we shouldn't research Writing at some point to get those Libraries. They are, however, more important when we have a little higher pop and thus more gold available. The problem as I see it is, that if we research Writing now it will be too late to build the Oracle. In SGOTM3 we did some tests indicating that Oracle is often built after 100 turns around 1000BC. The path AH-Wheel-Myst-Poly-Priest takes around 50 turns now and probably less as we grow but it still means that there is no time for other techs in between. There could be reasons for choosing another path but it's important to realize that we must decide now. I'm not sure either that Library first is the best build in a new city. Granary first to speed growth could easily be better if we can get enough happiness. I know that Monuments are pretty dull things and I can assure you I wouldn't want any at home :) . In CIV, however, they are much cheaper than Libraries and will for that reason get that border expansion much faster. That's why I don't mind building a few Monuments early in the game.

Speaking of Wonders, I think Colossus would be very nice to have. I think The Great Library is important as well in a science race. While the Oracle would be nice, unless we can find a way to do some trading to pick up the necessary techs, researching that line kind of takes us away from the more necessary techs; Wheel, IW, Writing, Alphabet? Beyond this, our recons will prolly tell us what else will be important, like Optics?

Colossus is OK but not great since several of our early cities (blue & green) won't be working water tiles. But it's cheap with copper hooked. The religious techs are necessary to get Monarchy so we probably need them anyway at some point. Alphabet could easily be of little use now if we don't find more civs. If we decide to abandon the thought of building the Oracle and get the MC slingshot I would probably prefer a tech path like AH-Wheel-IW-Pottery-Writing. Maybe with Mysticism included somewhere if we need a border expansion. Pottery before Writing makes Writing less expensive and it opens up the possibility of building granaries. A granary in Nidaros would make slavery much more efficient. Discovery of IW will allow us to mine the gems. I would expect our 2nd settler to be ready by then (around 40 turns from now. Hmm... this does show that the Oracle strategy will really slow down our expansion

Another thought: We won't get access to copper before the nex border expansion of Nidaros 35 turns from now. We need to think carefully about barb defense or alternatively research Archery. Building some warriors and setting up a fog busting perimeter in the woods and jungle could be a solution that will work well until we can build axes. But we must not be too slow in doing this.

Knowledge techs and the knoweldge wonders should go to the AI with the purpose of making it easier for Gandhi to acquire tech through trade from the AI. Researching it ourselves then spreading it around the world is not the most efficient way to accomplish that as the AI get research discounts while the human pays full price.

You've got a point that we shouldn't be too greedy. On the other hand we probably need to tech fast towards Optics in order to open up tech trade not only for ourselves but also for Gandhi. Not being greedy is also why I suggested the naval blocade of Gandhi. We don't want him to get hit with lots of WW by attacking our cities if we can prevent it.

We need to come to a consensus on research before I can start. Wheel then IW in the short term?

Wheels and swords is the order of the day I think.

With AH in the bin we will know where the horses are - chariots are wonderful barb busters in Warlords. And Iron will make the gems productive and give us swords.

Wheels and swords is the order of the day I think.
Yes, I agree that this is the short term goal.

Good luck rrau!! :thumbsup:

[party] I got my PC back before the weekend :beer:

AND I got a better video card than I had before: 512 MB instead of 256 :cool:

Time to go dl the gotm and see what I can make of it, I guess ;)

We need to come to a consensus on research before I can start. Wheel then IW in the short term?

I'm cool with that :) . Think about fogbusting and barb defense as well. And maybe the workboat scout. It would be nice if our second settler is built around the time when IW is discovered.

Going for IW most likely means that we abandon the Oracle in favor of faster expansion. The alternative would have been to not settle the jungle cities and instead settle a couple of more production cities in the northern part of the continent and then do an axe/sword rush on the cities Genghis might have settled in the jungle in the meantime. The fast expansion strategy is a "builder" strategy and probably a good choice since we might want to keep Genghis in the game for a while. After all he could be Gandhis only trading partner for some time.

Good luck with the turns!

>>>THE SAVE<<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/Xteam_SG004_BC1900_01.CivWarlordsSave)

2800bc (0) Toggle on grids

2680bc (4) See 1st pic :eek: :eek: :eek:

2650bc (5) Our scout was dinner :(

2500bc (10) Learn AH, Start Wheel. Settler finishes. Start another scout :rolleyes:. We see Horses in Nidaros. :D

2470bc (11) We're 8th of 8 civs in Size

2440bc (12) Found Uppsala and start a warrior

2170bc (21) Found a hut with our second scout and we get ----- more experience for our scout :rolleyes:

Not much else happened

We get a workboat scout out and it's heading south east along the coast.
There's a barb city founded in the jungle.
Horses are hooked up.



Here is your Session Turn Log from 2800 BC to 1900 BC:


Turn 41, 2770 BC: Hinduism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 42, 2740 BC: Gandhi converts to Hinduism!

Turn 49, 2530 BC: You have discovered Animal Husbandry!

Turn 52, 2440 BC: Uppsala has been founded.

Turn 57, 2290 BC: Gandhi adopts Slavery!

Turn 61, 2170 BC: The villagers have provided your unit with experience!
Turn 61, 2170 BC: You have discovered The Wheel!

You may wish to copy it to Notepad for reference when you write your turn set post. It includes any entries you added with the in-game Chat facility

:cheers: Looking good rrau!! :goodjob:

Have to look at the save later as I'm trying to finish up SGOTM03. :eek:

Roster:
Bede - UP
Sanabas - On Deck
Cactus Pete
Leif
Gator
Frederiksberg
rrau - Just played!! :thumbsup:

This is sweet, with horses in the capitol and the Wheel we have all the barbarian protection we could ever need, and can in fact go after them instead of waiting for them to come to us.

Got it for tomorrow

Sorry to be so outrageously tardy. I'm sure I read somewhere that this game was scheduled to start MARCH 23. Got the email but was desperately trying to finish GOTM15 and ignored it for the time being.

I'll have little time this weekend (and I haven't even tried to download the game -- just opened the thread and found out you've started); however, if I'm not persona non grata now, I could probably take a turn as early as Tuesday night or, better, Wednesday. I will need coaching on the procedures, as I've never played a succession game before.

Interesting idea, blockading Ghandi's ports to avoid conflict and hopefully have him expand by land in another direction. I don't think he would attack the blockade if he were at a disadvantage, and, even if he did, sinking a few ships (he wouldn't attack with a loaded vessel) would generate minimal WW and prevent more extensive land-based conflict where we would be damned if we won and damned if we lost.

Other than the obvious -- that is, taking out the warmongers who refuse to trade, frustrating a neighbor whose preventing his expansion, and being prepared to eliminate a surging rival near the end of the game -- indirect assistance seems difficult to accomplish.

Well done rrau. I'm particularly happy that we are on our way to get some fogbuster out. And with horses hooked we don't even have to worry about barb axes anymore since we can build chariots.

It's a little annoying that Gandhi has claimed our fish tile :mad:. I dont think we can get it back because he could very well have founded Hinduism in this city. Actually we could be looking at some serious cultural pressure. The barb city is placed exactly where we wanted the blue city to go which is great since we can now concentrate on settling the green spot. By the way - should we move the green spot 1S to get the marble as well? We would loose the sugar tile which is 4f3c when its developed. Maybe it's better to let Genghis have it until we see fit to take it from him :) .

I think we should micro a bit for commerce and chop a settler so that he's done about the time when we discover IW. The green city site should be our priority. It would also be nice to get our cities connected and have the gold mined and hooked for extra happiness. Tech path could be Pottery-Writing. Pottery first to make Writing cheaper and to open up for chopping/building granaries. And of course we would also like to start cottage spamming the river banks of the green city.

Sorry to be so outrageously tardy. I'm sure I read somewhere that this game was scheduled to start MARCH 23. Got the email but was desperately trying to finish GOTM15 and ignored it for the time being.

Welcome to the team Pete! I'm also new in this team but I have already learned that they are quite a friendly bunch so I doubt that they will shoot off your kneecaps for being a little late :D .

I'll have little time this weekend (and I haven't even tried to download the game -- just opened the thread and found out you've started); however, if I'm not persona non grata now, I could probably take a turn as early as Tuesday night or, better, Wednesday. I will need coaching on the procedures, as I've never played a succession game before.

This is what the man says:

The person who holds the mouse is the decision maker for each turn set played. We all should provide input and bring up strategies, micromanaging, tech tree decisions, etc. as we feel the issues are important. The person playing the turn set should weigh the discussion and then decide what they think is best.

During discussion, it is very helpful to explain why you think something is important. This provides rationale for the mouse holder and education for the rest of us, and any folks who might be reading and following our thread.


Then there is some practical stuff. This where you get the team save SGOTM Progress and Results Page (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php) and on that same page there's also a link to the page where you upload the new save after playing. After you upload the save you get an autogenerated turn log. Normally you post this in this thread as an appendix to your own turn log (Just a description of major events during the turns). You can look at how rrau and I did this.

Interesting idea, blockading Ghandi's ports to avoid conflict and hopefully have him expand by land in another direction. I don't think he would attack the blockade if he were at a disadvantage, and, even if he did, sinking a few ships (he wouldn't attack with a loaded vessel) would generate minimal WW and prevent more extensive land-based conflict where we would be damned if we won and damned if we lost.

I like this idea too :D . Means that we shouldn't wait too long with research of sailing.

Other than the obvious -- that is, taking out the warmongers who refuse to trade, frustrating a neighbor whose preventing his expansion, and being prepared to eliminate a surging rival near the end of the game -- indirect assistance seems difficult to accomplish.

We do have a couple of ideas. Doing a lot of tech trade to increase the tech pace for all civs is one thing that could speed up the game. In order to obtain this we migth have to beeline for Optics in order to get more trading partners for us and for Gandhi. We might even give away Optics to far away civs hoping that they will get in touch with Gandhi faster this way. When we do tech trades we should also look at what techs Gandhi has and primarily trade techs that he needs and keep techs that he has and might be able to trade to others.

Sorry to be so outrageously tardy. (snip)

if I'm not persona non grata now, I could probably take a turn as early as Tuesday night or, better, Wednesday. I will need coaching on the procedures, as I've never played a succession game before.
Welcome Cactus Pete!! :wavey:

You are certainly not persona non grata. It is very nice to see you here.

Several posts above is the current roster. Brother Bede is up now, followed by Sanabas and then you are on. I placed you a little lower in the roster to give you time to find us because I hadn't heard yet.

What many of us do is to create a folder under My Document/My Games/Warlords/Saves/Single/ and name it for the succession game. That way, when you download the saves, they are all in one place and easy to find. When you get a chance to have a look, you are welcome to post your ideas of both short term and longer term goals or comments about Micromanagement, city builds, etc... :crazyeye:

EDIT - Forgot one very important point. When the saves are posted, you are welcome to download and open them to have a look, how else could you comment? You may open any screens you wish and check on whatever you need to see. However, you are not allowed to move any units or make any trades; you may not make any move that cannot be changed again. You also are not allowed to play a save unless it is your turn to do so. The reason is that you may uncover something important to the game and thus spoil it by finding out info we shouldn't know yet.

Frederiksberg has done a nice job of giving you a quick rundown of our team process and the link to the location of the save. Please be sure to click on the XTeam save. Last game, because of the way it was set up, I twice clicked on the wrong save because XTeam has always been the last on the alphabetical list. But SGOTM03 had two different games so XTeam wasn't at the bottom (habits :rolleyes: ) and I had to PM Alan and beg forgiveness for clicking in the wrong place. :scan:

As you find your way around, please ask questions and all of us will try to help you navigate your way through your first SGOTM.

On the game, I see no reason why the green city can't be founded one tile south.

I think we need to get some Chariots built to go take that Barb city by the gems, before the Mongols beat us to it. Sorry, but I always get nervous in the early game as I always seem to lose the race to Barb cities. And this one is too important to lose. BTW - that Barb city is, of course, one tile north of the planned location. Not a big deal, leaves us room for another pretty nice city site to the south near the Horses.

I'm no longer too sure of the pink city site as it will be under a lot of cultural pressure. :eek:

Let's see if there is any Iron available. If not, perhaps we should consider a city three tiles north of Nidaros to ensure we secure the Copper? But that can wait for now.

:salute: Good luck Bede. :thumbsup:

We have iron in reach! (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/Xteam_SG004_BC1300_01.CivWarlordsSave)
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/SGOTM4/Civ4ScreenShot0004.jpg

Gandhi is really putting on the pressure on Uppsalla

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/SGOTM4/Civ4ScreenShot0000-1.jpg

And here may be why

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/SGOTM4/Civ4ScreenShot0001-1.jpg

It looks like the town is a double holy city!!

Workboat reached the end of the continent

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/SGOTM4/Civ4ScreenShot0002-1.jpg

And the settler and Iron Working arrived in sequence: Iron first, then settler. So the settler headed south

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/SGOTM4/Civ4ScreenShot0003.jpg

Pick your spot, gentlemen and lady!

Not much in other news. Killed a couple of barbarian warriors with newly trained chariots and put a barracks into Uppsala. One worker is mining the copper and the second is working around Uppsala. The Uppsala worker can head south once that mine is done. The other can prepare the way for hte north bound settlers. There are two fairly decent city sites up there which I have marked on the map.

Nidaros should produce the settlers while Uppsala works on military (chariots and soon axemen and shortly after that swords)

The next research project should probably be Mysticism for obelisks in the new towns. Uppsalla especially needs one as it is being hammered by the Indian holy city across the bay.

:high5: Nice work Brother Bede!! :goodjob:

:scan: Think I like the grass hill where the Chariot is for the next city. :D

After the Rax in Nidaros, Settler and claim the Iron. :thumbsup:

And in between all this, we really need to take that Barb city and claim the gems.

Roster:
Sanabas - UP
Cactus Pete - On Deck
Leif
Gator
Frederiksberg
rrau
Bede - Just Played! :beer:

Is it worth trying to build Stonehenge in Upsalla? I suppose it would be too slow and we'd lose it. :hmm:

::scan: Think I like the grass hill where the Chariot is for the next city. :D



I agree.

Nice work. :D

Now that I look more closely at the map I think the jumgle hilltop is the better site. Plains marble quarries are pretty crummy producers while having more riverside grasslands, once the jungle is cleared, is a real strong bonus.

Just checking in and can't resist puting in my two cents worth (though I haven't even looked at whatever map you're referring to). Marble is valuable after Literature to produce the GLib and national wonders. Will the borders of the proposed city site expand by then to include it? If not, I'd give up some immediate commerce and/or production to insure its availabilty in the future.

The attachment shows the difference in the choice of city site. It is only 1-tile.

Got it, but won't play until tomorrow night.

I like the plains hill over the jungle hill, 1 extra shield in the city square, slightly more river, and grabs the marble as well.

I'm quite sure it is a grass hill, not a plains hill. ;)

Reading the text on the screenie might have been helpful. Oopsie. I still like founding where the chariot is, if we move 1 N we lose 3 plains, 1 grass, 1 plains marble, 3 river tiles. We pick up 1 coast, 1 grass hill, 3 grass, 2 river tiles.

I like the chariot hill, too.

Charriot hill is fine with me too. Only problem is that we need a fast border expansion to be able to work the gems tile. Since we soon have Mysticism I suggest we chop a Monument down there.

Tech path could be Mysti-Pottery-Writing-Sailing. Pottery first reduces the cost of Writing.

Regarding the barb city we probably need to outnumber the defending archers by 2:1 in order to be able to capture the city with charriots alone (probably need 6 charriots). Copper is hooked 9 turns from now so we could wait until we have built a couple of axes. We shouldn't build more military than we need as we are already paying upkeep.

Like leif said we can probably forget about the pink city site due to cultural pressure. Instead I like the grassland hill between the northern corn and sheep. It's coastal and will have good production when the borders expand and we claim the iron. We really need a second place to build our fleet for the blockade of Gandhis ports.

I think it's too late to build Stonehenge now. It's also cheaper to build a few Monuments where we need fast border expansion and then later in the game we probably prefer building Libraries and Theatres to get culture. It's also likely that we need Calendar quite soon to work the sugar and spice tiles and if we beeline for Optics Calendar is on the beeline.

Good luck with the turns.

Now that I see the choice on the map, I definitely like the site that includes the marble, as it also gives two more forests to chop.

Well, maybe just one more forest. We should consider clearing and farming the near sugar, at least in the short term.

Unless we need the gems ASAP, I'd opt for waiting to build a library for expansion, rather than an immediate Monument, which has such short-lived utility. The city will eventually produce significant commerce -- with gems to mine and multiple riparian tiles to cottage, even the quarried marble will produce gold -- and that will give a library enduring utility. I would also suggest saving some forests to chop for the library as soon as we research Writing.

Well, maybe just one more forest. We should consider clearing and farming the near sugar, at least in the short term.

Sounds like a good idea to speed growth before we have Calendar.

Unless we need the gems ASAP, I'd opt for waiting to build a library for expansion, rather than an immediate Monument, which has such short-lived utility. The city will eventually produce significant commerce -- with gems to mine and multiple riparian tiles to cottage, even the quarried marble will produce gold -- and that will give a library enduring utility. I would also suggest saving some forests to chop for the library as soon as we research Writing.

I guess you always want a luxury resource fast to enable higher pop in your cities. We could of course get the gems from the Barb city if we hurry and capture it soon...

I guess you always want a luxury resource fast to enable higher pop in your cities. We could of course get the gems from the Barb city if we hurry and capture it soon...
Yes, the sooner we can get the Barb city, the better. :D

RL is doing its usual RL rubbish. Sorry for the delay, I will have this played withing 24 hours.

Since you've delayed, I'll take the opportunity to express my concern about rushing to capture the barb city.

I can't tell if it's size two yet. Until it is, we don't want it. If it is size two, it should be defended with four archers, which will make taking it with chariots difficult and costly.

Though I appreciate the value of the city, I don't share Leif's concern with someone else taking it quickly. If they try soon, they are likely to fail, possibly weakening the defenses enough to allow us to capture it. Even if they do capture it, we could then immediately re-take it from them more easily than we could dispense with four fortified barb archers.

I urge that we wait until we have swordsmen that might survive the attack, gain experience, and become part of a growing and powerful army.

Woops . . . just read a thread that says you only get four barb defenders in Deity. Not sure what the reality is in Warlords. You can check out the defenses without attacking. I would still counsel patience and caution.

Settler for the iron/sheep hill seems a high priority.

RL is doing its usual RL rubbish.

You are preaching to the choir, brother. That is why I haven't posted any comments, I'm still trying to get caught up which probably won't happen until the weekend.

Just downloaded the last save (without any problems, much to my surprise).

What struck me hardest was that we had not revolted to Slavery, when we will lose the production and commerce for only one turn in only two cities -- both cities should whip ASAP, as they are both working non-optimal tiles, and we will probably want to use the whip again in 15 turns.

Also would argue that Writing is more needed than Mysticism and that a worker and settler will be of greater benefit than more chariots, UNLESS THE BARB CITY IS POORLY DEFENDED AND RIPE FOR TAKING.

Also would argue that Writing is more needed than Mysticism and that a worker and settler will be of greater benefit than more chariots, UNLESS THE BARB CITY IS POORLY DEFENDED AND RIPE FOR TAKING.
I'm glad to hear someone else say this. :)

As long as you think the Barb city will be around a while, I can wait for Swords and/or Axes. But building the Iron City should be a priority. :thumbsup:

I should be playing shortly. Haven't looked at the save yet, but revolting to slavery now, aiming for settler quickly, and going for writing so culture expanding buildings actually do something else useful sound good to me. I hate building monuments most of the time, I'd rather get stonehenge or build libraries.

OK, played my turns. Researched writing, was very undecided about what to research next, and eventually went with Maths. Nidaros has a library. 2 Barracks complete next turn, which will be good for churning out axes, as barb archers have started appearing. Fogbusters are mostly in place, so barbs are a minor problem. Western barb city has fallen. Northern barb city is in the wrong spot, and is still there, and preventing us from founding at iron hill. Next priority should be axes to take that city, it is defended with 3 archers. Copper mountain has been founded. We have open borders with Genghis, exploring workboat hasn't found much beyond Genghis, and needs to run home, or at least into mongolia, to avoid an indian trireme. There is 1 goody hut, and stone/horses. Only a small island though, and no path through except around to india. We'll need a real boat for that, so switching research to sailing may be a good idea.

Preturn: Revolt for slavery
Change Nidaros to settler
Change research to writing

Turn 91: Revolution ends.
Discover Hittite in the west is size 2, defended by 3 warriors
Switch Nidaros again, this time to a chariot
Whip chariot in Uppsala for 1 pop.

92: Uppsala Chariot->Half finished rax

93: Uppsala Rax->worker

94: Nidaros Chariot->Settler
Haithabu founded in the south, on chariot hill from former screenie->warrior

95: Attack Hittite. 3 chariots win as ~80% favourites, the 2 backup warriors are not required

96, 97: zzz

98: Hittite resistance ends, start warrior, will change as soon as writing appears

99: zzz

100: Whip settler in Nidaros for 1 pop

101: Research writing-->Maths
Nidaros settler-->Library
Great Wall built in a far away land
Examine Tartar in the north, it is size 1 with 3 archers defending. Also see an extra barb archer in the north.
Sign open borders with Genghis for work boat exploration
Switch Hittite from warrior to library

IBT: Barb archer just kills chariot, ends at 0.2/3

102: Uppsala worker-->library
Haithabu Warrior-->library
Chariot kills crippled barb archer

103: Copper Mounain founded-->Rax

104, 5: zzz, chopped/mined 1 hills/plains/forest north of nidaros

106: Chariot moves into fogbusting position in the south, spots wounded barb archer (2.6/3).

IBT: Wounded archer kills chariot.

107: Nidaros Library-->Rax

108,9,10: zzz

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53201/homeisland.JPG

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1300 BC to 850 BC:

Turn 90, 1300 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 90, 1300 BC: Xteam adopts Slavery!
Turn 90, 1300 BC: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.

Turn 91, 1270 BC: You have trained a Chariot in Uppsala. Work has now begun on a Barracks.

Turn 94, 1180 BC: Haithabu has been founded.

Turn 95, 1150 BC: Xteam's Chariot (4.00) vs Barbarian's Warrior (3.00)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Combat Odds: 78.3%
Turn 95, 1150 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Xteam's Chariot is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Xteam's Chariot is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Xteam's Chariot has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Xteam's Chariot (4.40) vs Barbarian's Warrior (3.00)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Combat Odds: 89.4%
Turn 95, 1150 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Xteam's Chariot is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Xteam's Chariot has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Xteam's Chariot (4.00) vs Barbarian's Warrior (3.00)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Combat Odds: 78.3%
Turn 95, 1150 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Xteam's Chariot is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Xteam's Chariot is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Xteam's Chariot is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Xteam's Chariot is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Xteam's Chariot has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 95, 1150 BC: You have captured Hittite!!!

Turn 100, 1000 BC: You have discovered Writing!
Turn 100, 1000 BC: The Great Wall has been built in a far away land!

Turn 101, 985 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Xteam's Chariot (4.00)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Combat Odds: 26.7%
Turn 101, 985 BC: Xteam's Chariot is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Xteam's Chariot is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Xteam's Chariot is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Xteam's Chariot is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Xteam's Chariot is hit for 17 (15/100HP)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Xteam's Chariot is hit for 17 (0/100HP)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Barbarian's Archer has defeated Xteam's Chariot!

Turn 102, 970 BC: Xteam's Chariot (4.00) vs Barbarian's Archer (0.36)
Turn 102, 970 BC: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 102, 970 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 102, 970 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 102, 970 BC: Xteam's Chariot has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 103, 955 BC: Copper Mountain has been founded.

Turn 107, 895 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.23) vs Xteam's Chariot (4.40)
Turn 107, 895 BC: Combat Odds: 25.5%
Turn 107, 895 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 107, 895 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 107, 895 BC: Xteam's Chariot is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 107, 895 BC: Xteam's Chariot is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 107, 895 BC: Xteam's Chariot is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 107, 895 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 23 (75/100HP)
Turn 107, 895 BC: Xteam's Chariot is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 107, 895 BC: Xteam's Chariot is hit for 17 (15/100HP)
Turn 107, 895 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 23 (52/100HP)
Turn 107, 895 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 23 (29/100HP)
Turn 107, 895 BC: Xteam's Chariot is hit for 17 (0/100HP)
Turn 107, 895 BC: Barbarian's Archer has defeated Xteam's Chariot!

Turn 110, 850 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Hittite!

Bad luck with the chariots, but Ghandi is certainly doing well.

I have downloaded the game and would like to play as soon as I get some advise and feedback from the team.

I am pleased to be a part of this and will be happy to do whatever is asked: however, I do have a preferred course of action. I have played one Warlords game (WGOTM6) to 5AD and found little divergence from vanilla, so I am confident in my competence at this early stage of the game. That will not be the case when vassals, the UN, modern military units, and the space race come into play, as I have not dealt with any of that in any of the vanilla GOTM's (which is all the civIV that I've played).

I have two slack days ahead of me, and that is unlikely to recur anytime soon. Thus, playing the maximum number of turns allowed (whatever that is, and how do you keep track of them, anyway?) now (and the absolute minimum number towards the end) would be my preference.

PLEASE GIVE ME SOME DIRECTION AT YOUR EARLIEST CONVENIENCE.

Regarding the game, itself:

It will be difficult to take Tartar with axemen (unless I can sucker at least one of the defenders out of the city), so I don't plan to prioritize that. When it is taken -- and we certainly need a city in that area -- I'm inclined to raze it and re-site on the forested hill to get both food sources immediately and eventually the iron. That, of course, will require building a settler. It's a tough choice . . . opinions?

Being limited to 50% science at this early stage of the game is not a winning scenario. We are in immediate need of more workers in order to make our gem and sugar cities grow and produce and to chop ubiquitously once Mathematics is researched. I propose switching production in both Nidaros and Uppsala to workers as soon as I take the mouse. Let me know if there are objections.

After Writing . . . Sailing.

That's covers what seems most pressing. Give me your thoughts.

:goodjob: Nice job Sanabas. :high5:

Nice to see some Libraries cooking.

Roster:
Cactus Pete - UP
Leif - On Deck
Gator
Frederiksberg
rrau
Bede
Sanabas - Just Played.

@Cactus Pete.
You are cleared to play 20 turns.

In the HOF Mod, you can turn on a turn clock that appears up in info box above the Advisor buttons. Please see the attached screen shot.

EDIT - And I forgot to tell you that you get to that screen by clicking on Options in the same screen in which you save the game. If you have questions, please let me know.

I just read my own spoiler text. Attacking barbs won a pair of 25% chance combats. Damn RNG gods.

That's covers what seems most pressing. Give me your thoughts.
I cannot see what is in Tartar, so I leave that to you to decide. I do agree it needs to be razed and replaced.

Workers are sorely needed to get our cities developed, especially Hittite. Getting Gems on line will help both the cash situation and allow our cities to grow. In addition, we can speed research when building workers in Nidaros as we're working no commerce tiles. Watch growth as we're at the happiness limit.

On tech, Sailing next would allow us to build a Trading Post and get something from coastal tiles. We also need Calendar. I am thinking, a little longer term, that I'd like to see a Great Library in Uppsala or Hittite. But given this map layout, we probably should also start thinking about Optics and Caravels.

It would be nice to see another city in the south somewhere near the Horses to cut off Genghis Khan a bit. Too bad it is all jungle, or perhaps it is good as it will make him think twice about moving north? ;)

The last thing I'm a bit concerned about is that we are starting top fall behind on the power graph. Genghis Khan is not known for his charity and an attack would not be a good thing. Also, Gandhi's culture graph is going vertical... :eek:

Well done Sanabas! Capturing Hittite easily is a nice bonus. I didn't know that Copper Mountain had been proposed as a city site - where was that mentioned :confused: . Anyway it will eventually be an OK production city allthough growth will be a little slow. Good thing that it's situated at the coast and can be used for building our fleet. The fact that Gandhi has Sailing makes it even more important for us to start building our own fleet now! I don't like the sity site "Iron Hill" because it's not at the coast. I think we need to prioritize a strong fleet and for that we need coastal cities with high production.


What struck me hardest was that we had not revolted to Slavery, when we will lose the production and commerce for only one turn in only two cities -- both cities should whip ASAP, as they are both working non-optimal tiles, and we will probably want to use the whip again in 15 turns.

When we discovered BW I didn't revolt because we hadn't discussed this in the team. I did mention in my handover notes that we should probably do so before founding our 2nd city. Then we all forgot about it :D .

t will be difficult to take Tartar with axemen (unless I can sucker at least one of the defenders out of the city), so I don't plan to prioritize that. When it is taken -- and we certainly need a city in that area -- I'm inclined to raze it and re-site on the forested hill to get both food sources immediately and eventually the iron. That, of course, will require building a settler. It's a tough choice . . . opinions?

I don't have the save right now but I would say that if Tartar is not coastal it's definitely a raze because we need production sites for building a strong fleet that can be used to contain Gandhi. The other argument regarding the food sources is also strong but it may depend on the size of the city when we capture it.

Being limited to 50% science at this early stage of the game is not a winning scenario. We are in immediate need of more workers in order to make our gem and sugar cities grow and produce and to chop ubiquitously once Mathematics is researched. I propose switching production in both Nidaros and Uppsala to workers as soon as I take the mouse. Let me know if there are objections.

I agree. We badly need more workers. I think it may have been a small mistake to found Copper Mountain this early when we have many unimproved tiles everywhere.

After Writing . . . Sailing.

We already have Writing and Math is well on its way. Maybe we should finalize Math so that we can start copping those Libraries and then Sailing is probably a high priority to get started on that fleet. Gandhi already has a Trireme :eek: . After Sailing it might be high time for Pottery to make maximum use of Slavery by building Granaries and to start cottage spamming the river banks of Hittite and Haithabu.

I cannot see what is in Tartar, so I leave that to you to decide. I do agree it needs to be razed and replaced.

Workers are sorely needed to get our cities developed, especially Hittite. Getting Gems on line will help both the cash situation and allow our cities to grow. In addition, we can speed research when building workers in Nidaros as we're working no commerce tiles. Watch growth as we're at the happiness limit.

On tech, Sailing next would allow us to build a Trading Post and get something from coastal tiles. We also need Calendar. I am thinking, a little longer term, that I'd like to see a Great Library in Uppsala or Hittite. But given this map layout, we probably should also start thinking about Optics and Caravels.

It would be nice to see another city in the south somewhere near the Horses to cut off Genghis Khan a bit. Too bad it is all jungle, or perhaps it is good as it will make him think twice about moving north? ;)

The last thing I'm a bit concerned about is that we are starting top fall behind on the power graph. Genghis Khan is not known for his charity and an attack would not be a good thing. Also, Gandhi's culture graph is going vertical... :eek:

I agree with most of this - particularly the part about getting gems hooked and beelining for Optics. We have to find more trading partners for ourselves and for Gandhi. GLib is nice, but we might consider leaving it for Gandhi to build. We have to find a balance between our own development and Gandhi's. I don't think we can afford to found any more cities for some time (except the city that will get us iron) so I'm afraid we are better off leaving the horses to Genghis.

Okay, I'll have at it for twenty turns. Thanks for the turn-log help, Leif.

Sorry, I meant, "After MATHEMATICS . . . Sailing"

If I get to Tartar, I'll check back here for some counsel before proceeding. It is a coastal city, but will not give us access to iron, which means no Spearmen that will probably be needed to eventually take over Mongolian cities. A clever solotion to that dilemma would be appreciated.

We have to find a balance between our own development and Gandhi's. I don't think we can afford to found any more cities for some time (except the city that will get us iron) so I'm afraid we are better off leaving the horses to Genghis.
It is not the Horses that concern me. There is a huge gap between Hittite and Haithabu that the Mongolians could easily plant a city, perhaps 2 in, and we could lose Hittite to culture flip because of its distance. dropping a city near the Horses closes the gap and secures our southern boundaries.

Of course, if the ultimate plan is to remove the Mongols from the map, we could let them build their city, chop the jungle for us and then we could help ourselves. :mischief:

In thinking a bit ahead, I would like to try to find our way up the tech tree somewhere so that when other civs show up we can at least have something to trade for techs. And depending upon the map, there could be several civs all trading away on another continent and we'll find ourselves way behind in tech when they show up.

I think we may need to work on a team goal here and get a bit more focused on what we're trying to accomplish. Seems to me we're a bit all over the map, as it were? :hmm:

@Cactus Pete - you're welcome. :) The wooded hill you selected to be the city site has access to the sea and is a good location, imho.
Also we can build Spears from Copper but need Iron for Swords.

Had a quick look at the save. I think I'm in favor of razing Tartar and resettling on the forrested grassland hill 1S. I don't think we want any more cities right now so it's better to optimize the placement and get the iron. We need it for swords and xbows.

We could do some microing for gold particularly in Nidaros where we are not working the clam tile. I think we should almost always be working this tile. 4food+3commerce is much better than 1food+2hammers. Don't be afraid of letting Nidaros grow into unhappiness - we can whip something thats costs more than 1 pop to correct this - or even better build some workers!

It is not the Horses that concern me. There is a huge gap between Hittite and Haithabu that the Mongolians could easily plant a city, perhaps 2 in, and we could lose Hittite to culture flip because of its distance. dropping a city near the Horses closes the gap and secures our southern boundaries.

I don't think we should fear culture flipping from a Mongolian city placed in the jungle. We are there first and have claimed the food resources so it's more likely going to be the other way around - we flip any weak Mongolian jungle city.

Of course, if the ultimate plan is to remove the Mongols from the map, we could let them build their city, chop the jungle for us and then we could help ourselves.

But not too early. I don't think we can get any of Gandhis religions unless they spread to us via Mongolia. Having his religions would be good since it would enable us to help him spread them.

I think we may need to work on a team goal here and get a bit more focused on what we're trying to accomplish. Seems to me we're a bit all over the map, as it were?

I agree. Here are my suggestions for long term goals:

1. Naval blockade: Build a strong naval force in order to prevent Gandhi's military from leaving his ports. Keeps WW under control.

2. Open Trade: Beeline for Optics in order to find all other civs and start trading with them. Trade Optics to them so that they will eventually meet Gandhi.

3. Spreading faith: Get Gandhi's religions through Mongolia and help spreading the faith.

Regarding long term tech path a possibility is Sailing - Pottery - Calendar - Metal Casting - Machinery - Compass - Optics. But it depends also on our wonder strategy. Colossus is possible with this path but not the GLib. We could also stay away from wonders alltogether hoping that Gandhi would grab many of them. Optics can be lightbulbed by a scientist so we should probably consider hiring scientist at some point.

Concur with all above. Might want to fit Hereditary Rule into the tech path.

Concur with all above. Might want to fit Hereditary Rule into the tech path.

Yes - the tech path suggestion is merely ment as a rough guideline that probably needs modifications as the game evolves and we discover that some other tech is more important. One example could be Monarchy if we at some point (maybe now) realize that we need the extra happiness from Hereditary Rule.

1. Naval blockade: Build a strong naval force in order to prevent Gandhi's military from leaving his ports. Keeps WW under control.

2. Open Trade: Beeline for Optics in order to find all other civs and start trading with them. Trade Optics to them so that they will eventually meet Gandhi.

3. Spreading faith: Get Gandhi's religions through Mongolia and help spreading the faith.
To create an effective naval blockade we may have to build another city on the western side of our area. To try to build them on the east side and sail them around would require a right of passage through Mongolia and many turns to get to the other side. The only city we can build in presently is Upsalla, sort of pop restricted and focusing on Gold and, hopefully, some science.
Optics can be lightbulbed by a scientist so we should probably consider hiring scientist at some point.
Yes, as soon as we can find a place, this is what I was thinking as well.

To create an effective naval blockade we may have to build another city on the western side of our area. To try to build them on the east side and sail them around would require a right of passage through Mongolia and many turns to get to the other side. The only city we can build in presently is Upsalla, sort of pop restricted and focusing on Gold and, hopefully, some science.

Upsala is not bad for production when we get a couple of mines on the plains and grassland hills. This could mean sacrificing some commerce to gain more hammers. There might be a passage north of our continent - we don't know this yet because the workboat only scouted south. Also keep in mind that the trading posts will give our vessels an extra movement point.

I have completed my twenty turns and uploaded the save . . . I think without incident, though if I've gotten it wrong it will be no surpprise. Just let me know and tell me what I should have done.

Here is my account and comments:

CACTUS PETE
SGOTM4W REPORT FOR TURNS 110-130BC

110 (830BC): Switch production in two largest cities to workers
Trade pigs for sheep to improve relations with Khan
Move scout ESE onto middle desert hill to improve fog busting range

111: Note interesting future (probably after we have conquered Khan, have caste system, and can expand with artist specialist) city site directly on top of stone SW of Ning-hsia
Whipped worker in Uppsala, sent worker S to help farm sugar in Haithabu

113: Gandhi has Alphabet and is far ahead in tech

116: Worker produced in Nidaros, sent to mine gems in Hittite

117: Barracks completed in Nidaros, but military units delayed to produce one more worker, since happiness limit looms

120 (700BC): Stonehenge built far away
Mathematics learned, researching Sailing (in 6 turns)
Now able to run science at 60%

124: Axeman dispensed with a wandering barb archer from Tartar, still 3 defending
Single Mongolian chariot is now exploring our territory. They do not have copper, and iron is not yet in the city radius of their easternmost settlement, so we are safe for now. It may become a race for Horseback Riding and control of the continent

126: Sailing finished, Mysticism chosen next so as not to waste earlier contribution

127: Our passing workboat reveals Old Sarai, being defended by an archer and a chariot – both un-promoted. This city is one we should consider capturing early in the inevitable Mongol war, as it is an outlet to the sea with iron and other good resources, has forests to chop, is isolated from the center of Mongolian power, will be under no cultural pressure once seized, and puts us in no additional potential conflict with India.
I have put the production of axemen on hold (they remain in two queues, if needed) in order to begin a lighthouse in Nidaros (which will benefit significantly in growth potential and will be able to turn out faster ships) and to start a galley in Copper Mountain (which will be able to explore Northwest) that I intend to man with our southern scout whom I’m sending north for that purpose, taking a calculated risk on southeastern barbs (though the workboat, reversing direction each turn, is busting some of the fog).
Gems are now mined and hooked up in Hittite.
Khan and Gandhi both adopt Hereditary Rule.

128: Mysticism achieved, now researching Pottery . . . chose this because it is needed and will take exactly the rest of my turn. Our next tech is an important decision with many reasonable options. It merits a discussion.

130 (550BC): Peace (except with Gandhi!?) and slowly growing prosperity throughout the X-team’s modest empire.


SUMMARY AND SUGGESTIONS

I played an uneventful 20 turns.

Three of the four libraries that Sanabas founded were completed and will generate city expansion in Uppsala (5 turns) and Haithabu (6 turns). The one in Hittite will take longer . . . until the sugar can be cleared and farmed and the library then whipped. Eventually Hittite will be an excellent commerce city.

We have gone from 3 workers to 7, and they all will have plenty to do for awhile.

GENERAL RECOMMENDATIONS

I think it unlikely that Gandhi would be so technologically advanced without a couple of trading partners, and they are surely either on his continent or abutting it. The scout will arrive at Copper Hill next turn and could board a galley for points NW, if the galley is immediately whipped. Were the mouse to stay in my hands, I would do so, despite giving up the use of a mined hill for several turns.

The Mongols must be conquered and the continent put to our use, if we are to be a force in this game, but when and how are topics for discussion. Very desirable to preempt their completing an iron mine in Old Sarai, but I am leery of a premature attack because we would be vulnerable to pillaging by their mounted units. I have begun production of a spearman, rather than an axeman, in Haithabu for that reason. Their capital is on a hill, and we probably should have catapults before laying siege to it. Possibly we could take Old and New Sarai, counter pillaging, and sue for peace in ten turns, then develop the two new cities, research Construction, build catapults, and mine the iron in Old Sarai to get a few swordsmen before we strike at the core of their empire. Going at them with horse archers is also an option, and, if we could pillage their horse pasture early in our attack, that would be welcome indeed. I have no idea how acquiring the Mongols as a vassal should fit into our planning. In any event, check Karakorum for horse archers before launching an inadequate attack.

Given the desirability of capturing Old Sarai in the not too distant future, I now lean strongly towards not razing Tartar, as we will secure iron in OS and probably quicker without having to settle and rebuild a decent city. From the thread, it seems that mine is now a minority point of view. Hope you’ll reconsider. A monument for expansion, rather than a library, would probably be appropriate in Tartar, since it is not destined to be a high-commerce city.

Go ahead and chop our forests for immediate needs. We are not in a position to save them.

If we start to have problems finding truly useful things for our workers to so, then it will definitely be time to expand one way or another.

The tile just N of the horses below Hittite, or even on the horses, will be a good city site when windmills are available. It is also arguably the best choice for a new city soon to help produce a naval blockade, though I’d prefer to chop a few triremes in Uppsala and see how we stand first.

There are more pressing needs for now, but a road to Hittite (probably through the corn and the as-yet-unmined gold tile) is important.

RESEARCH

Only Nidaros is affected by unhappiness, and it is well suited to whipping (even more so with a granary). The sugar tiles can all be utilized by farming or cottaging. When the spices in Hittite become available or our cities near the happiness limit, then researching Calendar deserves priority. Once we do get Calendar, we may be in a position to utilize specialists (probably in Nidaros) and generate Great People. I don’t see it happening before that.

We need trading partners on other continents before Currency is worthwhile.

Meditation has limited utility. Polytheism (required for Literature) presents two wonders whose production is halved by the marble we will eventually quarry, but I think wonder production is not practical for now, we have more pressing needs, and, if we can trade at all, Poly should be available. We don’t have the production cities that can readily build and utilize Metal Casting’s forges. I know we want Optics, but Compass will not help much now, and we’re behind now. It seems foolish to spend the required turns researching Alphabet before we have tech-trading partners.

That leaves Archery/Horseback Riding or Construction. I’d be happy with either approach – both would help us rule the continent and both would give us a tech that the AI usually doesn’t acquire too early.

CITY MICRO-MANAGEMENT

In addition to the suggestions made above, I’d recommend that (1) once Uppsala expands, we mine the third gold hill, then let it stagnate and concentrate our efforts elsewhere until windmills become available, and (2) after clearing the jungle from the far sugar in Haithabu, leave it for the time (come back and cottage) – it’s useful as a 3f1g tile – and move all the workers (the payoff is quicker when they work together) either to chop the forest if we need immediate military units or, preferably, begin clearing, roading, and mining the gems (in that order, I think the city will have expanded just before mining is begun).

BTW, Frederiksberg, your suggestions regarding Nidaros were entirely consistent with my actions.

COMMENTS IN RESPONSE TO THE LATEST THREAD ENTRIES:

Spreading Gandhi’s religion seems too iffy and long term to be given great weight in our planning decisions.

Like Calendar, Hereditary Rule is not a big need right now. Also, many of the techs required to research it may well become available through trade. Indeed, Khan and Gandhi already have it.


I make no pretense of great insight. Hope all this generates discussion.

:high5: Nice first SGOTM turn set Cactus Pete!! :beer:

Sorry it was a bit boring. ;)
You uploaded the save correctly as I was able to "pull it". :D

Roster:
Leif - UP
Gator - On Deck
Frederiksberg
rrau
Bede
Sanabas
Cactus Pete - Just played. :goodjob:

A note on the roster. I am up in SGOTM 12 for CIII and must play that tomorrow evening. Gator is usually free on weekends. so I'd like to have this available for him this weekend if he wants it. That means that if someone has time and can play 20 tomorrow or Friday, please post a "Got it" and play. I will adjust the roster. This is not to rush things and if we need a day or two of discussion, which we well might as many conflicting needs are coming up, that is fine as well. I would prefer to take the time and get together on a direction that we can all move in.:thumbsup: As Gator has said many times, rather play smart than play fast. However, I do not wish to hold up the momentum for my own sake. :D

I like the idea of taking the twin Sarai's using Horse Archers. No Spears until the Iron is hooked up, and no Copper. Researching Archery and HBR will require 15 turns while Construction requires 17. Horse Archers will be good as long as we can beat the Iron connection. Afterwards, Swords and Cats can finish the job. If our Iron will come from Old Sarai, then I agree that we can use Tartar.

It might be a good idea to research Alphabet, if possible, before the war with the Mongols ends so we can collect techs via the pointy stick? Or, perhaps, that is our way to acquire Alphabet? :mischief:

On Vassals for Cactus Pete (can I start typing Pete?). :please:
Info on Vassals can be found here. (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/warlords/) about half way down the page. Also, in the Civlopedia under game concepts there is a rundown on Vassal States. Basically, we would get a bit of happiness, some higher maintenance costs, we can demand resource (if they refuse, it is instant war), they always have the same state of war/peace as the Master and they vote for us during a Diplo Victory vote.

lief . . .

I don't think that you can acquire a tech for peace until you have Alphabet, and I don't think Khan would give us a tech with just two cities falling -- probably have to take his capital or some additional cities and threaten Karakorum. So, until we have catapults, I don't think we can use Alphabet to extract techs. Hopefully, it will be needed very soon for trading, however.

I will check your references, but, in particular, how does tech trading with a vassal state work?

P. S. How about just CP?

Well done Cactus Pete. I like the detailed turn log and it's interesting to hear your thoughts about future strategy.

Don't have much time to comment now but I would particularly stress the need for getting the galley out to scout north of our continent. If Cactus Pete's assumption about Gandhi having trading partners unkonwn to us turns out to be valid it changes our long term strategy somewhat. Naval blockade would still be interesting but beelining for Optics becomes less important and it also becomes less valuable to keep Genghis alive as a potential trading partner for Gandhi.

I will come back later with more discussion :) .

......in particular, how does tech trading with a vassal state work?

Not so well or pretty good depending on how they feel about you and what condition their economy is in. Much the same way it works with independent trading partners with the added feature that you can direct their research using the "let's discuss something else" dialogs.

And a truly outstanding first entry into the SG ranks, Pete. Well thought out and well played and nicely reported.

lief . . .

I don't think that you can acquire a tech for peace until you have Alphabet, and I don't think Khan would give us a tech with just two cities falling -- probably have to take his capital or some additional cities and threaten Karakorum. So, until we have catapults, I don't think we can use Alphabet to extract techs. Hopefully, it will be needed very soon for trading, however.
Sometimes I feel like I'm flying blind without Alphabet. :scan: When I started playing, I used to avoid it for a while and then learned why I got so far behind in tech, because I wasn't trading well. Its a bit of an obsession perhaps? ;)
I will check your references, but, in particular, how does tech trading with a vassal state work?
Bede explained it well. A Vassal can, and will, have techs in red and will not trade them. You can demand their only resource and they either give it to you or you go back to war. The longer they are your vassals, generally, the better your relationship becomes due to shared wars, etc. However, as Bede said, generally, their economies are not up to fast research so they can drag you down a bit.

Had a look at the save. I support the idea of depriving Genghis of metals by capturing Old Sarai. I'm not sure that we want any more Mongol cities right now since city maintenance will become a problem. I'd rather capture Tartan. If we decide to get the iron from Old Sarai I'm also in favor of keeping Tartan. It's quite big now and it will have both food resources within the fat cross. A short war now where we only capture Old Sarai will cripple Genghis and without iron he will be defenseless against our swords and berserks in a 2nd war (can't build axes and xbows).

I'm still not convinced that Gandhi has trading partners. We must remember that he has a very strong tech capital with at least 2 gems in the fat cross and he could also have popped a tech or two from huts. We really need to find out so lets get that ga