Should abstain votes be counted?

If they are counted the we can have a situation where there are, say, 3 yes votes, 1 no vote and 3 abstains... Which means that 'yes' while more popular than 'no' would not be considered to have received a majority of the votes.

If they are not counted then some may see themselves 'shut out' of the democratic process

If this is not decided one way or the other, then close polls will have another aspect by which they may be disputed...

This poll is private and will close in 4 days


A long discussion of this, and other aspects of fair polling is found here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=205453

I believe that abstain should be changed to none, or no choice.. which means I think they should not count

Ok, so does the abstain option count in this poll?

@Shattered: You lost my vote.

@Furius: Love the private poll.

ANY vote should count. If someone really doesn't care about the results of a poll then why are they voting? So they can more easily see the results of a poll they don't really care about? :crazyeye: Anyone wanting to register the fact that they are paying attention but don't really care about the poll can just make a post in the poll saying Hey, I'm here but I don't really care about this so I'm not voting.

ANY vote should count. If someone really doesn't care about the results of a poll then why are they voting? So they can more easily see the results of a poll they don't really care about? :crazyeye: Anyone wanting to register the fact that they are paying attention but don't really care about the poll can just make a post in the poll saying Hey, I'm here but I don't really care about this so I'm not voting.

So, if I'm reading your explination right. You are not really infavor of counting abstain, or not as such. More so infavor of eliminating abstain all together, or any other option which equates to a non-vote.

These are completely different viewpoints on the same matter. Because you're not saying abstain is a valid choice that deserves counting on it's own right. But more so ALL vote options should be valid meaningful choices.

Current vote
Yes - 1
No - 5

I guess we know who the 1 is, so far. ;)

Just voted no.

Because I abstained several times, I think I can speak a little about "abstain".

I could just not to vote, but I wanted to show that I am and want to be in the
game, and show respect to partners, so I voted; and not just posted, so that
my position can also be "translated" in numbers.

And I did not vote "yes" or "no" (or otherwise) because unsure or not caring
about that specif point.

So, my vote should not be counted to make or unmake a majority or plurality
(or whatever, but to count me as present in the game).

Best regards,

I don't think that abstain should be counted as long as the poll includes all possible options.

I don't think that abstain should be counted as long as the poll includes all possible options.
But that's kind of subjective... How do you work out if it included all possibly options? Take the vote on difficulty levels... That included only 'noble' 'prince' and 'emperor' not nearly all options... How would you have determined whether abstains would count for that?

Well, IMO in that vote abstain should have been counted. Everyone who wanted settler, warlord, chieftain, emperor, immortal or deity should have chosen abstain.

Well, the thing is, in parliaments, "Abstain" roughly means "Don't count me as here."

I think some energy is wasted trying to apply a particular meaning to "abstain". A simpler solution would be to consider two separate poll options:

- "None of the above" which would be counted and could prevent one of the other options from winning (whether the poll was majority or plurality based).
- "Observing, but not voting" which would not be counted and would simply be a way for people to show they were paying attention, but that they lacked a preference.

Whether either or both options would be included on a poll seems a question best left to the poll creator.

None of the above seems like something specific that would be put in the poll consciously...

'Abstain' is generally seen as, according to the current votes in the poll, synonymous with the latter of your two options... Donsig seems to disagree



Incidentally, I'm surprised no one's voted to 'abstain' yet... I guess everyone actually has an opinion on this issue?

Incidentally, I'm surprised no one's voted to 'abstain' yet... I guess everyone actually has an opinion on this issue?

Given that the meaning of "abstain" is not universally accepted, some may not have voted for fear of giving the wrong impression. ;-)

ANY vote should count. If someone really doesn't care about the results of a poll then why are they voting?
I'm trying not to sound rude but this is just an appalling conclusion. Yes, every vote should count for what it measures. No counts the people opposed to a proposal, yes counts the people accepting the proposal and abstain counts the people that have no opinion on the matter. It is statistically unwanted and unheard off to take votes from one category and simply add them to the votes in another category. If you really want to do this, why even create a poll? Tempering with votes tells me that the person who does the tempering considers the voters to be morons. Besides, it's far from the democratric ideal to temper with votes and last thing I heard was that this game is called Democracy Game.

I'm trying not to sound rude but this is just an appalling conclusion. Yes, every vote should count for what it measures. No counts the people opposed to a proposal, yes counts the people accepting the proposal and abstain counts the people that have no opinion on the matter.

You don't sound rude at all. You're absolutely right but what you say applies only to poll questions that have only two mutually exclusive and all encompassing options that are present as vote options. In other words for a poll question like should we declare war on Alexander on turn 39? with options of yes, no and abstain. It doesn't work for poll questions like when should we declare war on Alexander? with options like next turn, turn 39, after we build a barracks in our capitol, abstain. These are the kinds of polls we have to prepare for. In the latter poll would we be bound to declare war on turn 39 if the result of the voting was 2/6/3/9? If I don't want to declare war at all how do I vote so that my vote is measured as a no?

So, if I'm reading your explination right. You are not really infavor of counting abstain, or not as such. More so infavor of eliminating abstain all together, or any other option which equates to a non-vote.

I am leaning that way for simplicity sake. If every vote is counted towards the majority then all we have to do is look at the poll result percentages to see if an option got 50% or more of the vote.

I don't think that abstain should be counted as long as the poll includes all possible options.

Difficult to list them all - how would we do that in when should we? type polls. Also, the more options a poll has the greater the chance there will be no majority decision. But see below.

I think some energy is wasted trying to apply a particular meaning to "abstain". A simpler solution would be to consider two separate poll options:

- "None of the above" which would be counted and could prevent one of the other options from winning (whether the poll was majority or plurality based).
- "Observing, but not voting" which would not be counted and would simply be a way for people to show they were paying attention, but that they lacked a preference.

Whether either or both options would be included on a poll seems a question best left to the poll creator.

This is the best solution presented so far - but I would not make it optional. Even in polls with simple yes / no questions there can be reasons for voting none of the above. Say the poll is private and you think it should be public (or vice-versa). Say the poll is put up during a holiday and given a one day duration so the pollster can slide something in quick before everyone gets a chance to vote. There is always the possibility that someone will object to a poll for some reason. Give that person the chance to vote against the poll - make the none of the above option madatory.

I think we might want to consider an initiative that goes something like this:

No poll shall be binding if it does not include the following two options:

- None of the above (votecounted towards determination of poll winner)
- Abstain (vote not be counted towards determination of poll winner)

So, how many characters can there be in a poll option?

I'm still in favor of having someone look at the poll and deciding if it is bogus or real. If it's bogus, it can just be closed and a real poll opened in its place.

Assuming the poll is real, then the highest number of votes for a real option should prevail unless stated otherwise by the originator.

It is valid for "none of the above" to be a real option in a real poll. If it wins the poll, then we don't do anything.

It should not be mandatory to include either abstain or "none of the above".

Abstain should never be counted in the results.

I agree with DaveShack.

And to be fair a poll must cover all possible answers to the question.

(For instance,I can only ask when to do this, if before was decided to do it).

Best regards,

You don't sound rude at all. You're absolutely right but what you say applies only to poll questions that have only two mutually exclusive and all encompassing options that are present as vote options. In other words for a poll question like [i]should we declare war on Alexander on turn 39?[i] with options of yes, no and abstain.
You are right there, in that type of poll you don't need the abstain option at all. And by not having it you cannot count the abstain votes towards another poll option altogether.

Hoping this doesn't make me lose any votes, as this doesn't pertain to my office:

My argument for not counting an abstain vote is that by abstaining you choose not to take part in the poll. You are removing yourself from such poll, so why should abstain count when tallying up vote percentages? Counting the abstain vote is making it act like a Ralph Nator. All it does is take away percentage votes from each side, sometimes one side more heavily then the next.

'Abstain' is generally seen as, according to the current votes in the poll, synonymous with the latter of your two options... Donsig seems to disagree



Incidentally, I'm surprised no one's voted to 'abstain' yet... I guess everyone actually has an opinion on this issue?
Because of what this poll is about voting abstain would mean u want abstain in so you would just vote to keep abstain.

Hello all, IMO, abstain should be left in but not counted towards either for or against a course of action or act, abstain votes should only come into play when there is a higher percentage of them than any of the other options. If this were to be the case, it would most likely mean that the poll has been badly worded or it has other options not included for selection, meaning the poll creator would have to redo the poll.

Hello all, IMO, abstain should be left in but not counted towards either for or against a course of action or act, abstain votes should only come into play when there is a higher percentage of them than any of the other options. If this were to be the case, it would most likely mean that the poll has been badly worded or it has other options not included for selection, meaning the poll creator would have to redo the poll.
Amen. Now to escape a warning for spamming the forum I have this too.

The problem with the abstain option is that it's essentially vestigial in nature - it was originally implemented when we decided to impose a strict quorum requirement (if I recall correctly - it have been an awfully long time..). That is, after all, the purpose of the abstain vote in real-world legislatures (the equivalent of voting 'present' in most American legislatures, including the U.S. Congress) - you don't have a strong opinion on the matter, but want your voted counted for the sake achieving a quorum so the body can move on to other business.

We can reimplement a quorum, and define abstain as counting toward the quorum but not in favor of any particular option (an option that might, incidentally, solve our problem of judging if a poll is valid - if you think a poll is invalid, just don't vote in it).

We can define abstain as a vote against the poll (as AljayBoy states above), as well.

However we go, I think a new initiative on polling should probably be decided in the near future, before our civilization starts expanding extensively.

As for this poll, I'll do the unthinkable and abstain. We either need to define an abstention carefully, or we need to abandon it altogether.

If I understand your explanation correctly the abstain poll option only makes sense in a vote with a quorum requirement. None of the polls currently out there specify that a quorum is required though. My conclusion then is that the use of the abstain poll option is "void" in those polls unless we consider abstain to express having no opinion in those polls.

The problem with abstain thus seems to be the definition of it. If we go with the definition as if a quorum is required, abstain means indicating you care about the poll subject but just not enough to vote yes or no [/overexaggeration]. Question is though: does it matter for counting votes? No, it still doesn't matter for counting the votes. Regardless of the definition of abstain votes you cannot add them to either of the remaining categories of a poll.

Well I'm sorry donsig that I lost your vote, but I didn't think opinions on this subject had to do anything with the elections. Oh well, I guess anything said by people running for office can be taken to heart.

For abstain to function correctly, the poll would have to have a reason to have a indecisive choice. I STILL dont see the point of counting abstain in the actual vote tally, whether for plurality or majority decision. In a plurality decision it wouldn't make much of a difference, but in a majority decision, it could make or break the vote. That does nothing but add more bureaucracy and red tape to a functioning system, causing inefficiency and wasting of time. From what I've noticed, most of the citizens at least feel that abstain slows down progress and isn't worth the hassle to continue counting it toward the total vote tally.
Salutations,
Shattered

The poll is indicating the very same, Shattered. I really hope the final result of the poll will be honoured.

Abstain should not be counted. Period. Its like the "GIANT RADIOACTIVE MONKEY" option that I see (annoyingly) in OT :ack:.

Deleted to allow for DaveShack's action.

-- Ravensfire

Abstain - the use of Abstain should depend on the poll and the creator of the poll.

-- Ravensfire

Dangerous words from someone running for Chief Justice my friend. What's to stop me from posting a poll saying:

Should be attack Ceasar?

Yes (for the purposes of this poll yes will be counted as no)
No
Other - please post what other means to you (for the purposes of this poll other will be counted as no)
Abstain (for the purposes of this poll abstain will not be counted)

Ludicrous and extreme but shows up the danger in allowing pollsters to define thier own interpretation of poll results. Not really that difficult to manipulate polls if you can tell how they are to be interpreted. Nor is it difficult to arrange a plurality through options given in a poll. We should all use abstain the same way.

The poll is indicating the very same, Shattered. I really hope the final result of the poll will be honoured.

I'll live by any result as long as it is a majority result. By majority I mean a final vote percentage as given by the forum poll results that is over 50%.

Well I'm sorry donsig that I lost your vote, but I didn't think opinions on this subject had to do anything with the elections. Oh well, I guess anything said by people running for office can be taken to heart.

For abstain to function correctly, the poll would have to have a reason to have a indecisive choice. I STILL dont see the point of counting abstain in the actual vote tally, whether for plurality or majority decision. In a plurality decision it wouldn't make much of a difference, but in a majority decision, it could make or break the vote. That does nothing but add more bureaucracy and red tape to a functioning system, causing inefficiency and wasting of time. From what I've noticed, most of the citizens at least feel that abstain slows down progress and isn't worth the hassle to continue counting it toward the total vote tally.

Well, I did vote for you for DP. :) The reason for the current debate about counting or not counting abstain is my feeling that we should only consider a poll to be binding if an option rec'd a majority not a plurality. If no majority decision is reached I say we let our officials make the decision. This gives citizens the chance to make decisions but also lets officials have some real power in cases where no majority decision is made. Having a built in way for citizens to declare a poll invalid via their votes (either through counting abstain or some other mandatory option) does not add more bureaucracy and red tape it actually streamlines the system by allowing officials to make decisions where bad polls exist - and bad polls are deemed bad by actual citizen votes and not by some all powerful Censor type official or moderator.

I'm still in favor of having someone look at the poll and deciding if it is bogus or real. If it's bogus, it can just be closed and a real poll opened in its place.

That's one option but after the censorial shenanigans of last game you'll have a very difficult time convincing me to support this idea.

Assuming the poll is real, then the highest number of votes for a real option should prevail unless stated otherwise by the originator.

We'll have one of these soon. Where to settle city number two is always a multi-option poll - exactly the kind that result in pluralities. Don't you see yet that plurality decisions cause alot of dissention in the democracy game? Just what is it that you have against majority decisions?

It is valid for "none of the above" to be a real option in a real poll. If it wins the poll, then we don't do anything.

We agree here. Too bad we can't agree on how to decide whether a poll is real or not.

It should not be mandatory to include either abstain or "none of the above".

I can live with or without abstain but I prefer none of the above to a Censor going around willy-nilly invalidating perfectly good polls for political reasons.

The problem with the abstain option is that it's essentially vestigial in nature - it was originally implemented when we decided to impose a strict quorum requirement (if I recall correctly - it have been an awfully long time..). That is, after all, the purpose of the abstain vote in real-world legislatures (the equivalent of voting 'present' in most American legislatures, including the U.S. Congress) - you don't have a strong opinion on the matter, but want your voted counted for the sake achieving a quorum so the body can move on to other business.

We can reimplement a quorum, and define abstain as counting toward the quorum but not in favor of any particular option (an option that might, incidentally, solve our problem of judging if a poll is valid - if you think a poll is invalid, just don't vote in it).

We can define abstain as a vote against the poll (as AljayBoy states above), as well.

However we go, I think a new initiative on polling should probably be decided in the near future, before our civilization starts expanding extensively.

As for this poll, I'll do the unthinkable and abstain. We either need to define an abstention carefully, or we need to abandon it altogether.

Wise words Octavian X. Didn't realize abstain originated to deal with quorums. I never did like those. Your post makes a heck of a lot of sense.

Donsig: Furius didn't mention how this poll should be interpreted. According to the Citizen's Initiative - The Polling Act of 4000 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=209044) that means:

Polls must explain how the results will be interpreted in the initial post. If the initial post does not, the single option with the most votes is deemed the winner. The interpretation may not change after 2 hours from the posting of the poll.

Until the discussion(s) stranded in the status of abstain votes noone opposed to that if I recall correctly.

Perhaps it's a good think to not poll at all until the status of abstain votes and the interpretation of a poll result are settled. I can feel mass-revoking hanging in the air already.

The Polling Act of 4000 BC is only a porposal at this stage, right? If so, it has no bearing on this poll other than as a suggestion for interpretation. The no option currently has over 64% of the voting (counting abstain) so (right now) the decision is clear.

No, but the Polling Act says exactly what you wish for: if unspecified the poll option with the most votes wins (which equals a majority).

No, but the Polling Act says exactly what you wish for: if unspecified the poll option with the most votes wins (which equals a majority).

No, it does not say what I want because the most votes in a poll can be a plurality decision.

I do not speak enough English, just translating word by word; but,
"with most votes" looks to me just more votes than any other;
while "with the most votes" means more than a half of votes.
Am I right?
Obvious, "abstain" way of being counted/not counted is another thing.
Best regards,

No, "with most votes" and "with the most votes" both mean more votes than any other. If "the" is not written, often it is still implied.

We use the term "majority" for more than half of the votes.
"Plurality" means some option has the most votes, but less than half.

We're also missing another discussion / poll, on what to do if there is a tie for most votes.

We're also missing another discussion / poll, on what to do if there is a tie for most votes.

In the past we've left it to the elected official or DP to break ties. Are you suggesting we need to change that or merely confirm it?

Note that under my proposed system, a tie results in no majority which is considered no decision thus allowing the appropriate elected official or DP to make the decision.

See the plurality decisions thread. :)

Well it all depends how much power you want to give to the people. Abstain can lead to quite a few un-decided polls, leaving the official to have the call. But this all ties in with a different thread, so I'll voice my concerns elsewhere.

I think we might want to consider an initiative that goes something like this:

No poll shall be binding if it does not include the following two options:

- None of the above (votecounted towards determination of poll winner)
- Abstain (vote not be counted towards determination of poll winner)

So, how many characters can there be in a poll option?

I like this method, as the NotA allows it to be validated by the citizens. I second this.

I like Octavian X's explanation on quorum's and abstaining, as that makes sense. I can't see the DG ever containing a quorum as the participation fluctuates too much to even consider it.

People should have the right to abstain, if they do not approve of any of the options.

Thus, IMHO, abstain votes should not be counted.

People should have the right to abstain, if they do not approve of any of the options.

Thus, IMHO, abstain votes should not be counted.
That's cool, the poll closed yesterday and yielded your opinion as a result.

That's cool, the poll closed yesterday and yielded your opinion as a result.

I was just expressing my opinion after the poll. Quite a coincidence :lol:

So if abstain doesn't count, then doesn't that mess up the DP pool poll? What if certain people only voted abstain?

So if abstain doesn't count, then doesn't that mess up the DP pool poll? What if certain people only voted abstain?
If I remember correctly I did suggest to stop polls from opening or recreate polls that were currently out after this poll about the abstain status was done. We're not going into a repoll frenzy now though I hope.

I think this poll is effective from here on out( or until we rewrite in abstain). I suppose people could challenge the DP poll and any other with an abstain vote as invalid. BUT i hope common sense rule( trademark Daveshack) prevails and we move forward. We dont need to stop game progress due to a small polling issue like this.

/its small because even if all of the abstains voted it would only effect 1 person in the DP poll and no one else.

For the record: since I'm the only contender that didn't make the 60% score in the DP elections I wish to state that I will not ask for a repoll. I accept the outcome of the DP elections poll for term 1.

My deep respect, Hyronymus.

That is democracy.

Best regards,

My deep respect, Hyronymus.

That is democracy.

Best regards,
Maybe it is but I don't think you should start demanding things until you know your place. Who knows how annoying I become :lol:.

Deleted to allow for DaveShack's action.

-- Ravensfire

And there are always people who vote for candidates and abstain :mischief:

Using abstain in multi-choise polls (like the DP poll) does not skew the shown percentages in the results so those percentages can be taken as they are listed.

In polls where only one choice can be made then we will have to manually recalculate the percentages by subtracting the abstain votes from the totals and dividing the vote total of each option by the result. My biggest agrument for counting abstain was so we wouldn't have to do this. Given the results of this poll the easiest thing to do is not use the abstain option in single choice polls. Then we can see the true vote percentages for what they are.

Using abstain in multi-choise polls (like the DP poll) does not skew the shown percentages in the results so those percentages can be taken as they are listed.

In polls where only one choice can be made then we will have to manually recalculate the percentages by subtracting the abstain votes from the totals and dividing the vote total of each option by the result. My biggest agrument for counting abstain was so we wouldn't have to do this. Given the results of this poll the easiest thing to do is not use the abstain option in single choice polls. Then we can see the true vote percentages for what they are.

Hypothetical situation:

Let's say there's two votes. One person votes for everyone - that's 100%. Now, a 2nd person comes along and votes only for abstain. Now everyone has 1 vote out of 2 -- that's 50%. It can skew the results. Ok, maybe not greatly in this case as there were many votes, but it can affact people who are really close to the 60% mark.

Well, it should affect the situation as apparently one person doesn't want the nominees as DP's, and one person does. So they have and should have 50% support in the poll.

Well, it should affect the situation as apparently one person doesn't want the nominees as DP's, and one person does. So they have and should have 50% support in the poll.

:agree:
but:


Abstain votes should not be counted


won - so currently we should find a way to not count abstain (which might be tricky in multiple choice polls)...

Just abstaining in the DP-pool poll has the same effect as voting without clicking any options (is that possible?)

Just don't include abstain as an option. If people don't want to vote for someone or even for noone then they don't. Easy as that.

You can't vote without clicking an option (I checked :D), therefor abstain should be included.

Just don't include abstain as an option. If people don't want to vote for someone or even for noone then they don't. Easy as that.

Not necissarily. When it came to voting it was really nice having the abstain option, as there were a few that people did vote abstain on. By having abstain it still allowed those who didn't like any candidate to have their vote count. This is what is very important, as it allowed everyone to see how many total players voted. Check the polls, total votes averaged around 37 and 38 votes. If we didn't count abstain there would be a bigger difference between the number of votes, and it would be harder to detect if someone was creating false accounts.

With abstain in the voting polls if you see that every election tends to have around x votes, but one poll has a lot more than x votes, it's easier to see that there may be a problem.

If you don't have abstain there will be a bigger difference and it'll be harder to see any false votes.

If abstain were labelled "None of the Above" in the DP pool vote, then it would be more clear what voters should do.

A separate single choice poll for each candidate would be the only foolproof way.

If abstain were labelled "None of the Above" in the DP pool vote, then it would be more clear what voters should do.

Yes, None of the Above should have been used in that instance. It appears that the poll iniator is going to have to make the decision on which to use.

Deleted to allow for DaveShack's action.

-- Ravensfire

Dear god no - that would be just foolish. I think I'd shoot myself before being the EO in that scenario.

The current system is working pretty darn well.

-- Ravensfire

I agree, just pointing out the amount of pain changing it would cause. :)

I don't see anything wrong with including abstain in multi-choice polls such as the DP poll. Could we have abstain and none of the above in the DP poll?

So,then, what exactly does a vote for 'abstain' say that isn't covered by a vote for 'None of the above?'

Well, none of the above would count towards the total... So it's very useful for, say city placement polls... But for a DP poll? I dunno