My purpose here is to list they types of GP farms one can build by combining different national wonders with National Epic. I list what I believe to the five most likely candidates, in the order that I like them, from worst to first.

1. The Military Production GP Farm

Second National Wonder: Heroic Epic

Advantages:

Allows you to concentrate your most powerful city on building military units and GPs at the same time.
Heroic Epic comes early, allowing you to bring your best city completely up to speed quickly.
Good for early conquest and domination efforts.
Allows you to put West Point together with Iron Works for a separate military city, or to put one of them together with Globe Theater for a happiness-penalty-free whipping/drafting city.

Disadvantages:

Requires you to spend hammers on military units, rather than concentrating on things to help your GP farming (such has happiness or health improvements, or other wonders).
Prevents you from putting Heroic Epic together with West Point (or Ironworks) in a separate super-military city.
Terrain desirable for military production may produce little food, and thus not be conducive to GP farming.

2. The Science GP Farm

Second National Wonder: Oxford University

Advantages:

Often a good choice for a capital, with terrain conducive to commerce improvements, where early wonders have been built.
Bureaucracy civic adds both commerce and hammers to your capital, increasing science as well as building potential for other wonders and health and happiness improvements.
May allow you to combine Oxford University with Great Library, though possibly only for a short period of time before Scientific Method kills the Great Library.

Disadvantages:

Working commerce improvements will limit food production and population, decreasing the availability of specialists, thus decreasing GP production.
Cities suitable for cottages may have low hammer potential, interfering with the building of wonders or health and happiness improvements.
Building science improvements may interfere with building of wonders and health and happiness improvements.

3. The Pure GP Farm

Second National Wonder: Globe Theater

Advantages:

Allows you to increase population without limit, and without having to spend hammers building happiness improvements.
Hammers saved not having to build happiness improvements can be used to build other wonders, adding GP points.

Disadvantages:

Unlike the others listed here, does not provide a significant side-benefit to the GP farming.
Population growth may still be limited by health issues.

4. The Money/Religion GP Farm

Second National Wonder: Wall Street

Advantages:

Combine merchant and priest specialists with shrines and other wonders for huge money and huge GP points.
Good choice for spiritual civs with religions founded in their capital, where other wonders might already exist.
Shrines do not require hammers to build, but contribute to GP points, allowing the city to focus on other wonders and improvements.
Great Merchants built here can settle in the same city, further increasing money and adding free food.

Disadvantages:

Not as advantageous for non-spiritual civs with religions founded in cities other than the capital, as it deprives the GP farm of wonders probably built in other cities.
Dealing with unhappiness from expanding population will be a near constant problem.
Prevents you from being able to combine Wall Street with Globe Theater for an unlimited-population religion/money city.

5. The Engineer GP Farm

Second National Wonder: Iron Works

Advantages:

When brought up to speed, allows employment of up to six engineer specialists (which cannot otherwise be obtained, such as through caste system).
Farms Great Engineers, which are the most useful GPs, particularly in the late game.
Hammer bonuses from the Iron Works and engineer specialists will assist in building health and happiness improvements, as well as other wonders.
Great Engineers born here can be used in the same city to build other wonders, or in low-hammer cities to produce needed improvements (such as Oxford in a separate science city).

Disadvantages:

Placing Iron Works in a city set up for GP farming prevents you from putting Iron Works in city with a lot of terrain-based hammers, thus losing production which could be used for military units, etc.
Engineer-producing wonders and ability to employ engineer specialists are limited, so you will either be limiting your GP production, or “polluting” your GP production with a lot of non-engineer points.
Iron Works comes late in the game and is difficult to build (although a Great Engineer helps a lot).
Iron Works and Factory cause extra unhealthiness, thus limiting growth and/or requiring building of health-improving structures.

A couple of closing notes: Of course, you can have other GP farms that don’t involve National Epic. I’ll usually have 2 or 3 cities dominated by farms and specialists, such as a religion/money city (with Wall Street and Globe Theater, when I don’t combine one of those with National Epic in the main GP farm).

Also, these are not the only possible combinations with the National Epic. You could have the Culture GP farm (Hermitage), the Spy GP farm (Scotland Yard) or the Medic GP farm (Red Cross). Those others just didn’t make much sense to me.

This space reserved.

It would never, ever, occur to me to pair the epics; nor to consider the items in that list to be advantages.

You also seem to be carrying a hidden implication that the GP farm that you are describing is in your capital. If you think that's what's going on, fine - but make it an explicit statement that people can disagree with.

It feels to me, from these descriptions, as though you aren't really talking about GP Farms, but instead are describing possible locations for the National Epic when your land or strategy doesn't support a traditional My God That's a Lot of Food Farm.

I suggest taking a couple more swings at this - I think you've got some useful thoughts to express in here, but you need to get clarified in your own mind and refined in presentation.

Sigh, I really need to find time to work on the Vocum I've been promising myself.

I think there are four styles of GP farm:

- Specialist / Philosophic farm at capital.

Capital is usually the highest food and production site you can get initially. If you are running a Farm economy you are probably going to want to make your capital your main GP farm and build Great Library (if possible) plus National Epic here. And its likely to get Oxford later to run maximum science specialists.

- Cottage / Financial style GP Farm

If you are getting your science from cottages, then your capital probably will get Oxford and the GP farm will be built in another city (often a conquered enemy capital), in which case it will get National Epic and probably Global Theatre.

- Industrial / Production GP farm

This is a little different as it uses wonders rather than specialists for GP points. Wonders don't give as much but don't need to be fed. With an industrial civ, having a capital that continuously builds wonders and when there are no wonders to be built runs specialists can generate a lot of GPP. Here national epic could be paired with iron works successfully, although global theatre would also be a good option.

- Shrine Farm

A shrine in the farm means that cash will be high and a lot of priests can be generated and settled in the same city to give production an even more cash. Wall Street makes sense here.

I can't see any benefit in the Heroic Epic / National Epic pairing. Building buildings or wonders can help a GP farm, but a GP farm doesn't benefit at all by focussing on building units. Heroic Epic may benefit by being in a high food city, but that isn't going to be a GP farm. Your heroic epic city should be running no specialists at all and outputting maximum food+hammers.

Iron Works + National Epic
This is silly. Once you have the Iron Works you don't need Great Engineers anymore! And why waste hammers by hiring engineers when you can work mines or workshops? If you do build the National Epic here, it's because you already have so many wonders that it outproduces your best specialist city.

Heroic Epic + National Epic
Bad.

Globe Theater + National Epic
No, unless I want half my GPs to be artists.

Wall Street + National Epic
Oxford University + National Epic
Yes. :goodjob:
The synergy of one specialized :gold: city and one specialized :science: city is amazing. One city gets cottages and the commerce slider, the other city gets farms and the national epic.

I agree Dave, but one point:

In a mixed economy (minimum 2/3 cities with lot of cottages) the biggest
GP farm with National Epic and Globe Theater can be very good. And only the
first (perhaps one more) more likely to be Artist, as let us say 6/7/8 scientists or
merchants will supplant said two artists sources.

Best regards,

I guess if you have an amazing GP farm and no resources in the rest of your empire you could use Globe Theater. But I do fine with military police in the early game and happiness resources/buildings in the late game.

Some general responses:

1. I agree that putting the National Epic with the Heroic Epic is likely to be a bad choice. That's why I listed it as the "worst" option. It's conceivable, though, that somebody may wish to play that way under certain circumstances; such as if they're running a very small empire trying to get a quick military win.

2. No, I am not assuming that the GP farm would be in the capital. In fact, in several places I talk about the difference in employing the strategy if it is in the capital or not in the capital. However, it often makes sense to put the GP farm in the capital, because it's the oldest city and most likely to have early wonders already built in it. Accordingly, if a certain type of GP farm has more or less synergy with the capital, then that certainly should be listed as an advantage or a disadvantage.

3. I don't draw a distinction between a "GP farm" and a "Place with the National Epic." If you've got the National Epic someplace, then that place is at least ONE of your GP farms. GPs are farmed from both wonders and specialists, and I think that a city with a lot of wonders and National Epic, but little or no specialists, counts as a "GP farm."

You may disagree with that terminology, but that's part of the reason for this article. People talk about a "GP farm," but they may be talking about very different things. That's why I thought it was helpful to classify them here.

4. I can see disagreeing with pairing National Epic with Iron Works, but I don't think it can be called "silly." Great engineers are quite useful even after steel is discovered and the Iron Works built: for building Pentagon, Statue of Liberty, Three Gorges, Oxford (often best built in a city with very low hammers), Wall Street (same), and even the space elevator. Of course, if you're playing a short game on a small map, you won't need those things. Those aren't the kind of games I like playing, so that's why I like this combo. I can certainly see room for disagreement, though.

3. I don't draw a distinction between a "GP farm" and a "Place with the National Epic." If you've got the National Epic someplace, then that place is at least ONE of your GP farms. GPs are farmed from both wonders and specialists, and I think that a city with a lot of wonders and National Epic, but little or no specialists, counts as a "GP farm."

You may disagree with that terminology, but that's part of the reason for this article. People talk about a "GP farm," but they may be talking about very different things. That's why I thought it was helpful to classify them here.


Then you should probably open by making your terminology clear first, rather than assuming that everybody agrees with your terminology and discussing cases.

Even so, I wouldn't bother discussing the Doubled Epics - not unless you've got demonstrations of its effectiveness.

The point of pairing Iron works and National Epic is not to farm Great Engineers. Its rather a natural evolution of a strategy an industrious civ can use:

- Start with a strong production capital
- Build early wonders there
- Gain GPP from wonders. Run specialists instead of mines when not building wonders.
- Gain production advantages from Bureaucracy at appropriate times
- Build Great library and National Epic in this city once you get literature. No other city is going to be generating GPs as fast at this point if you have 3-4 wonders including great library so why build national epic anywhere else?
- Later on you build IronWorks here because this is your strongest production city and will rush out ALL of the late wonders. By the time you get IronWorks, the GPP is a smaller part of the equation because you won't get too many more great people anyway. But you still want the late wonders and because national epic is here you still get to keep generating GPP from your earlier wonders.

I wouldn't try this with a non industrial civ. But with Qin I managed to get all of the wonders except Oracle and Sistine Chapel and get my earliest space race win on Monarch. And got more Great People than I would get in most games where I didn't run Philosophical.

Sure, but if your not industrious, the engineer GP farm lets you build wonders a diffferent way - with great engineers! In my current game (on Noble, but nevertheless...) I've built all the wonders with Elizabeth - with access to Stone but not Marble, in a city with very few terrain hammers. Some I've built slowly and by whipping/chopping, but mostly I build with great engineers.

If a wonder requires marble, or takes a long time to build, you use a GE on it. Meanwhile you've working farms and cottages, growing the city and churning out science at the same time. You put a forge in here, hire an engineer as your only specialist, and make sure you build all the engineer wonders (pyramids, hanging gardens, hagia sophia, ironworks, pentagon, three gorges) in this city. Other wonders, you can either build here (adds GP points but pollutes the likelihood of them being engineers) or build elsewhere. Of course, I'd build Great Library in the National Epic city despite the potential dillution.

Enginners here should be enough to build all the wonders you need to rush here, and wonders you want elsewhere. By the time you get to Ironworks and have four engineer specialists, the chances for a great engineer should be higher than for all the other great person types combined.

Sure, but if your not industrious, the engineer GP farm lets you build wonders a diffferent way - with great engineers! In my current game (on Noble, but nevertheless...) I've built all the wonders with Elizabeth - with access to Stone but not Marble, in a city with very few terrain hammers. Some I've built slowly and by whipping/chopping, but mostly I build with great engineers.

If a wonder requires marble, or takes a long time to build, you use a GE on it. Meanwhile you've working farms and cottages, growing the city and churning out science at the same time. You put a forge in here, hire an engineer as your only specialist, and make sure you build all the engineer wonders (pyramids, hanging gardens, hagia sophia, ironworks, pentagon, three gorges) in this city. Other wonders, you can either build here (adds GP points but pollutes the likelihood of them being engineers) or build elsewhere. Of course, I'd build Great Library in the National Epic city despite the potential dillution.

Enginners here should be enough to build all the wonders you need to rush here, and wonders you want elsewhere. By the time you get to Ironworks and have four engineer specialists, the chances for a great engineer should be higher than for all the other great person types combined.

Thats viable I guess. I tend to think that the city that I build Ironworks in won't need to burn engineers to make wonders because it will have so much production itself already. I was building most wonders in around 6-10 turns on standard speed (industrious + stone and marble + org religion + bureaucracy) and late game wonders usually exceed what one engineer can rush.

But with Elizabeth, I think your strategy makes some sense. Normally you want lots of specialists in lots of cities with philosophical - mainly scientists to rush through to liberalism and the renaissance military techs.

But Elizabeth is a strange mix - since you really want cottages in most of your cities to maximize the financial trait. Getting a lot of your GP points from wonders in a single city - and getting these wonders quickly by prioritizing engineers seems a reasonable strategy. With the great library you will still have enough scientists to build a few academies and you probably won't need to lightbulb techs with Elizabeth.

From my point of view there only 2 types of GP farm.

Specialists based GP farm - demand as mach food/health you can get. Not machh point to have this one in capital.

Wanders based GP farm - demand as mach shields as you can get. Again need some farms in order to support all this mines and grow. Does work good with capital, as it let you get more shields.

Iron work come well to late to have mach influence, but still could be good to put in Wander based GP farm, but not for running engeneers, but for max shields production for later wanders.

Second national wanders useally do not work good in specialists GP farm. Main purpouse of GP farm is to be GP farm. So, you mostly work food ties and run as many specialists as you can. Building second wander will interrapt your GP production and value of GP's fall with time. Yearly you get = better. You useally barelly get enogth shields to build more health buildings to run more specialists. You do not really have any to spear for second NW.

So, from my point of view the only sutable second wander is Iron works in wanders based GP farm.

Specialists based GP farm - demand as mach food/health you can get. Not machh point to have this one in capital.

I agree, but for pointing out that the position of the initial settler is often quite suitable for this kind of city. The answer being to move the palace, of course.

Wanders based GP farm - demand as mach shields as you can get. Again need some farms in order to support all this mines and grow. Does work good with capital, as it let you get more shields.

I gotta ask - is this spelling of Wonder deliberate? Every time I read it, it's nails on the chalkboard. Given how consistently you spell the word that way, it isn't a typo. Just curious. Yes, I need to get over it.

Iron work come well to late to have mach influence, but still could be good to put in Wander based GP farm, but not for running engeneers, but for max shields production for later wanders.

Assuming you've got sufficient health/happy, it doesn't cost much to run the engineers, though. Engineers have a 1:1 conversion from food to hammers, so the only production you lose is that while you are growing.

Second national wanders useally do not work good in specialists GP farm. Main purpouse of GP farm is to be GP farm. So, you mostly work food ties and run as many specialists as you can. Building second wander will interrapt your GP production and value of GP's fall with time. Yearly you get = better. You useally barelly get enogth shields to build more health buildings to run more specialists. You do not really have any to spear for second NW.

For constructing wonders, I agree in the main. Priest farms manage hammers fairly well, and a science farm will gain production as the game progresses (settled scientists). In addition, you have three viable options for rushing wonders, not including chopping.

One of the points I intend to address in the Vocum is the number of hammers you need for a specialist farm.

In a mixed economy (minimum 2/3 cities with lot of cottages) the biggest GP farm with National Epic and Globe Theater can be very good. And only the first (perhaps one more) more likely to be Artist, as let us say 6/7/8 scientists or merchants will supplant said two artists sources.

If you could pair Globe Theater with another wonder that gave unlimited health, I might agree with you. But, the thing is, usually your health limit and happiness limit are similar. So you just don't gain that much by having unlimited happiness. The Globe Theater is mostly useful for repeated pop-rushing or drafting---which you aren't going to do in your GPF.

True, but I don't think hitting the health limit is as bad as hitting the happiness limit. If you go over the health limit, you reduce your food surplus, and therefore the growth rate, somewhat. If you go over the happiness limit, you turn a citizen into a rioter, thus losing whatever he would have been producing - probably that same amout of food, plus something else.

Also, there is a trait (expansive) and a civic (environmentalism) which can help with health, but none corresponding to help with happiness.

Also, there is a trait (expansive) and a civic (environmentalism) which can help with health, but none corresponding to help with happiness.

Charismatic? Hereditary Rule? (or Representation, as the GP Farm is going to be one of your largest cities)

Sorry, I don't know about charismatic because I don't have warlords. That is true about representation, though (what you're likely to be in if you're trying to develop as many specialists as possible). Still, I usually find that the happiness limit is hitting about the same time as the health limit, as David said, even assuming representation is running.

I've had some success pairing the Globe with the NE. Basically, they're the two wonders that can really leverage a stupid-surplus-of-food city. You either run tons of specialists in Caste, or you whip/draft, as needed. And it's easy to switch back and forth because you regrow so fast (whipping->specialist switch), or you've already got a lot of banked population to spend (specialist->whip/draft switch).

If you've got two stupid-food cities then it may make sense to split them, one as a dedicated GP farm and one as a dedicated Globedraft. They don't really compliment each other directly. But they're each so strongly dependent on having the biggest food surplus possible, that they sometimes end up in the same city anyway -- the city with the most food.

peace,
lilnev

p.s. But probably most often, I don't pair my NE with any other National Wonder at all. It's "just" a GP farm.

I don't use my capital for a GP farm. I use someone else's capital, preferably a ridiculous flood-plains one. Farming flood plains can provide for specialists even with unhealthiness, netting +1 food each. So hapiness is your only real limitation, which is removed by globe theatre.

As for great artists...

- there's caste system, to overwhelm the artist GPP with scientists
- Once you get universal sufferage, buy markets, libraries, observatories, theatres... don't worry about getting what GP. Scientists for academies, engineers for buildings, artists for ending resistance (very useful in wars) or getting the radio tech, merchants for money, prophets for golden age(s).
- early on, don't worry about that combination. Great library and library with pacifism should be enough to get you liberalism pretty quickly, if you're so inclined.

For me, I almost always build the maximize GPP style with NE and Globe theatre, BUT, occasionally, if I have a shrine pulling in 40+ gold a turn, which is not too difficult with buddhism holy city, then I would build wall street and spam GM's.

The drawback to putting your GP farm in a captured city is that you may be losing GP points for wonders/shrines already built - and you don't have to feed wonders or shrines.

Of course, if you're lucky enough to capture an enemy city with a whole bunch of wonders/shrines in it, then sure it would be a good GP farm. I never seem to capture cities like that - at least not with as many wonders as I tend to build in my own cities.

One thing to consider doing is leaving the GP farm in the old capital, but plowing over any cottages you have there with farms, and making a new city or captured city your cottage/science city.

Normally my capital will have early wonders such as stonehenge/oracle/GW, so......, I generally get my 2nd Gprophet shortly after COL is finished. Anyways, the point is I like the idea of using an enemy capital or other high food source city as my GPF because I will plan on completing the GL there. This allows me to focus more GPP on generating GS which will be primarily used as academies in all my high research cities. If I were to keep GPF in capital of course I would get GP a little faster, however, I wouldn't be getting the type of GP I wanted.

I can't believe someone would ever put national epic and heroic epic in the same city. Honestly, just take a picture of that and put it next to "noobage" in the dictionary.
I tend to go with Heroic epic + West Point in one city, then ironworks + Red Cross in another city. National Epic gets paired with either a shrine, Oxford, or Wall Street for the obvious appropriate synergy. Sometimes National Epic goes with Globe Theatre if I want Great Artists.

So what is really the " Ideal " Pair for Wonders + National Epics ?
Considering Land ( Tile Types ) + Your Civs Traits ?

So Who's got it ?

In BtS, you should consider putting National Epic in you National Park City.

It doesn't come online until later in the game, and it limits the early usefulness of the Natinoal Epic because you will want that city to grow to 20 in order to take advantage of all the Forest tiles and food available, so you can't spare a lot of specialists in your NE city at first.

But it is extremely powerful once it is online. In my last game with 16 Preserves, 1 Copper, and 3 food resource tiles, once my NP+NE city was online I was pretty much guaranteed victory. It has great production, makes an awesome GPP farm (especially if you can stuff it with extra food from Sid's/Cereal Mills/resources/techs), and then becomes a great source of whatever specialist income you need with Caste System. I decided to go Cultural last time and it instantly became the highest cultural outputter and provided the Great Artists I needed to get a Cultural Victory around 1900.

National Epic + Ironworks
Only if I have some awesome combination of food resources / production tiles, a shrine, couple temples, cathedral, Angkor Watt, and a couple other Priest generating wonders. I've seen this before, but it is very rare. I was able to work 8 or 9 high production tiles (mines/workshops) and still support 7 or 8 priests (this was a while ago) and something like 6 settled GP. That city had both Ironworks and National Epic and was pumping out Great Prophets while providing a ton of :gold: and was my Naval Shipyard powerhouse building Battleships and Destroyers in 2 - 3 turns (marathon).

It's a very rare situation, but very awesome as well.

Wall Street + National Epic
Oxford University + National Epic
Yes. :goodjob:
The synergy of one specialized :gold: city and one specialized :science: city is amazing. One city gets cottages and the commerce slider, the other city gets farms and the national epic.


National Epic gets paired with either a shrine, Oxford, or Wall Street for the obvious appropriate synergy.

I'm having trouble understanding this "synergy". I've been in the habit of placing NE w/ GT but clearly I'm missing something. Could someone pls explain?

I'm having trouble understanding this "synergy". I've been in the habit of placing NE w/ GT but clearly I'm missing something. Could someone pls explain?

1) Shrines, Oxford, and Wall Street all provide extra slots for running more specialists (an important benefit in a GP farm)

2) Oxy and Wally multiply the product of the matching flavor of specialist.

1) Shrines, Oxford, and Wall Street all provide extra slots for running more specialists (an important benefit in a GP farm)

2) Oxy and Wally multiply the product of the matching flavor of specialist.

But both of these points apply to Ironworks as well, and everyone agrees that's a bad fit.

If your GP farm is running on farm tiles for population, why would you want to waste Oxy or Wally in such a city that has no cottages?

If you're running 90% science, cottages won't do much with Wall Street.

But if you hire some merchants and bump your slider up to 100%, that makes Wall Street more efficient AND Oxford/cottages more efficient.

If you're running 90% science, cottages won't do much with Wall Street.

But if you hire some merchants and bump your slider up to 100%, that makes Wall Street more efficient AND Oxford/cottages more efficient.

That makes sense, but what does that have to do with a GP farm? You could put Oxy & Wally in another city that produces much more commerce than a GP farm and still get this benefit, right?

That makes sense, but what does that have to do with a GP farm? You could put Oxy & Wally in another city that produces much more commerce than a GP farm and still get this benefit, right?

His point is that commerce is going to be useless for providing gold or science if the slider is on the extreme opposite end. At high science sliders, wall street is much stronger with merchants and corp HQ, and at low sliders values for science it would be better with commerce.

But, there are lots of ways to bump the slider up even with gobs of cities, so wall street does tend to be the one that gets the call for GP farm. Theoretically though you could just make an oxford science city to cover yourself while you spammed troops everywhere else I suppose...your science rate would still be relatively pathetic, but at least you'd move.

Ok, so what you're all saying is with the science slider high, the +100% gold of WS doesn't do much, so you might as well take advantage of the secondary benefit, which is the 3 extra merchants in the GP farm (which is really like 6 extra merchants due to the +100%). Is that right?

with the science slider high, the +100% gold of WS doesn't do much

The +100% gold of WS doesn't do much to cottages.

The +100% gold of WS does a lot to merchants.

And since you have 7 merchants generating GPP, you might as well build National Epic too.

I'm starting to see now, thanks. Sorry for being so slow.

If you're running 90% science, cottages won't do much with Wall Street.

A massive cottage city who has founded, say, Sushi + Mining Corps + a holy shrine + a few settled GMs can easily bring in much much more than 400 gpt at 100% slider if it has Wall Street.

A frozen tundra city can too.

A massive cottage city who has founded, say, Sushi + Mining Corps + a holy shrine + a few settled GMs can easily bring in much much more than 400 gpt at 100% slider if it has Wall Street
Yeah, but that has nothing to do with the cottages themselves and sounds like a niche situation.

A massive cottage city who has founded, say, Sushi + Mining Corps + a holy shrine + a few settled GMs can easily bring in much much more than 400 gpt at 100% slider if it has Wall Street.

Best case scenario for sure when you can pull it off.

Yeah, but that has nothing to do with the cottages themselves and sounds like a niche situation.

Sure it does. In ideal circumstances towns are better.

Sure it does. In ideal circumstances towns are better.

Not for producing gold at 100% science.

1. NE + GT for cultural wins
2. NE + OU for spaceship wins
3. NE in your wonder city if you don't have a good food city

Not for producing gold at 100% science.

If you're running a cottage economy late game then I'd rather have towns. You wanna stay in Emancipation so you're only gonna have like 7 merchant slots open which doesn't get you more gold at 100% slider in the best case.

Now if you're running a SE with a higher culture slider and have some sick corporations or just a 15+ specialist site, then yea, merchants are better.

If you're running a cottage economy late game then I'd rather have towns. You wanna stay in Emancipation so you're only gonna have like 7 merchant slots open which doesn't get you more gold at 100% slider in the best case.
He was just saying that at 100% science slider, cottages are contributing 0:gold: to your economy. That's what the slider is, the % of :commerce: going to science versus gold, right? Or do I have an error in concept (very possible).

Yes that is correct.

The idea here is that if you are running 100% science, you want Wall Street coupled with Merchants (and perhaps settled Great merchants and priests). (Corporations in Wall Street is duh, and a holy city can be nice as well)

If you run 100% Gold, or as it is, 0% science. You want Wall Street in your cottage city.


Was that clear enough for everyone now? :p

Blitz if funny.

What I'm saying Blitz is if you are running a CE, and not a SE, then you will be in Emancipation, not Caste, and if that is true, the best case scenario for your Wall Street will be in a COTTAGE CITY, not a merchant, specialist city.

He was just saying that at 100% science slider, cottages are contributing 0 to your economy.

False.

They actually help. My personal best Wall Street in a cottage city was 550 gpt at 100% :science: slider. It will take more than 7 merchants to match that, something which cannot be done unless you are in Caste. If you have a crazy food corp of some sort you could also run 7 merchants plus 20 Towns in the perfect site and do even better.

They actually help. My personal best Wall Street in a cottage city was 550 gpt at 100% :science: slider.
If you were running at 100% science, the towns produced 0 gold. How did they help to get more gold? They did not, they only helped to produce more beakers.

This is the only point TMIT was stating before. Not more, not less. Now to the fact that overall towns are more/less efficient than merchants, that is another question.

If you were running at 100% science, the towns produced 0 gold. How did they help to get more gold? They did not, they only helped to produce more beakers.

Wrong, False, Crazy, nonsensical - take your pick.

How did they help to get more gold

Build Wealth.

When you start adding in a 20 cottage city site (clear jungle), 2 Corporations bringing in +30 :gold: each, 2 Holy Shrines bringing in +30 :gold: each, forge, factory w/ power, industrial park, market, grocer, bank - you approach some crazy gpt at 100% :science:, especially if you have +12F or > from corporations - then you have the potential for 20 Towns plus 7 Merchants which would net you well over 600 gpt at 100% :science:.

Build Wealth.

Wrong, False, Crazy, nonsensical - take your pick.

Wall Street does not multiply Wealth.

Wrong, False, Crazy, nonsensical - take your pick.

Wall Street does not multiply Wealth.

Wow really!? Amazing. Who ever thought of that!? Wow! Jeezers! Too bad that has no relevance on towns ability to build wealth and help produce gold when at 100 :science: slider.

Next statement I can thrash? You never say more than 3 words so that leaves plenty of room for me to improvise stronger and more whopping slaps for you.

Mines and workshops are better at building wealth than towns...

for military production, unless is pangea of course, I tend to use maoi statues and heroic epic on a coastal city while the other city gets ironworks and either red cross or west point. Or sometimes the other way around, however with a coastal Ironworks your wonder/space ship building capacity tends to decrease a bit, but the earlier available heroic epic in your best prod city is also very good.

That way I can also get quality ships. Although when founding the maoi+heroic epic city it still is advisable to to get as much land and as little sea tiles as possible, but still getting the connection to the sea. Although if you're Willem, then you can use Dike to gain the second hammer from the sea, making the hammer optimization less of a problem.

If I really want to farm GEs, I just tend to focus on those specific wonders that give the GE points and avoid building stuff like oracle or stonehenge in that specific city. National epic+ mids +gardens is usually enough for that purpose.

Oracle slingshotting would of course allow running the engineers faster. But if you get a decent prod in your second city then it might be possible to get the oracle even if you are building other stuff in the capital

It's quite fun to read threads like this. Everyone seems to do so spectacular well on emperor/immortal/deity.

The GP-farm is a conquered capital. They have a shrine. This city gets NE and WS. Looks easy uh? There's a few problems with the NE+WS combo:

1.Getting that capital. An axe/sword-rush is often out of the question and everyone agrees that medieval warfare sucks, so we have to wait until our cannons.
2. The shrine. It's not exactly uncommon that it's the 2nd city that becomes a holy city.
3. National Epic. Come on, you'll want it up ASAP to bulb that popular liberalism-beeline.

Both the Heroic and the National Epic will in most of my games not be in the perfect spot at the end of the game.

Crusher1, for someone who plays such a high level, you have quite a few conceptual errors on how the game mechanics work.
The science slider determines how much :commerce: (that's trade based, luxury based, cottage based, and all the bonuses) is devoted to :science: versus :gold:. So, if the slider is at 100%, that means 100% (meaning all) of :commerce: is devoted to science and 0% is going to :gold:. That's a fact. It's not crazy or nonsensical. It's just how the game was created.

Crusher1, for someone who plays such a high level, you have quite a few conceptual errors on how the game mechanics work.

No - he's just deliberately choosing not to clarify.

( wealth buildings [shrines/corps] and merchants ) x wealth multipliers PLUS cottage hammers x hammer multipliers = lots of wealth even though the commerce was dedicated to research. Farms don't do him any good, because he's already filled up the 7 available merchant slots.

Crusher1, for someone who plays such a high level, you have quite a few conceptual errors on how the game mechanics work.
The science slider determines how much :commerce: (that's trade based, luxury based, cottage based, and all the bonuses) is devoted to :science: versus :gold:. So, if the slider is at 100%, that means 100% (meaning all) of :commerce: is devoted to science and 0% is going to :gold:. That's a fact. It's not crazy or nonsensical. It's just how the game was created.


The only fact we can see is that your logic is illogical. You are really clueless aren't you? There is an obvious reason why some people apparently lack the ability to successfully move up in level - they don't understand basic game mechanics. Let me break it down for you.

Everything is dependent on what you do with the :science: and :culture: slider plus what your city is devoting resources to. Guess what!? When you build wealth in a city, any hammers you produce are added with whatever modifiers you have and you will, in fact be able to gain gold when your :science: slider is at 100%.

Edit:

Amazing! Gold at 100% slider! Wow! Now, add in 2 Shrines at +30 :gold:, 2 Corporations at +30 :gold:, 5-7 Merchants from excess food from Corps, and Wall Street, and Voila, 550-600 gpt. Of course: Mines and workshops are better at building wealth than towns... this is very wise and would probably beat out most other cases for a better WS.. My main argument was that unless someone is in a SE/CASTE Towns have more potential for a better WS than specialist.

For those upset by my words, then you should think before you speak. How you treat me is how I will treat you. I got very thick skin and could care less, but if you do care, if you tone down I tone down. If you throw out idiotic stuff in my face or make blatantly false statements then expect some fun =D

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s305/cseanny/Civ4ScreenShot0003-3.jpg

Yes, that shows that the hammers from the towns are being applied to wealth.

And although it would be useful to mouse over to show what's actually going on, it's safe to say that other setups will get you more base hammers. Right now, those :gold: multipliers are doing absolutely nothing...and will do nothing until the shrines/corps go in (or certain buildings etc).

In theory with bio farms, unlimited caps, and a full set of AW priest, engineer, and merchant slots, you could probably do better with the specialists X_X. But that's irrelevant. What matters is what actually happens in the game...and basically you're going to stick wall street in the shrine city (state property) or a city with good hammers and the gold multipliers set in there. If this is a city with towns, you're not going to workshop over them, but if you're fortunate enough to say get a shrine in a hammer city it will actually produce more gold all things being equal.

Workshops > towns > specs for pure gold outside of caste in the wall street city, assuming 100% science. But does one really want pure gold and, can those workshops be fed (probably if your corp is food)?

Everything is dependent on what you do with the and slider plus what your city is devoting resources to. Guess what!? When you build wealth in a city, any hammers you produce are added with whatever modifiers you have and you will, in fact be able to gain gold when your slider is at 100%.


I'm beginning to wonder about your ability to think.

The discussion was started by TALKING ABOUT THE WALL STREET CITY. Wall Street is contributing ZERO to that city. NOTHING. Look below at what you said on this very page.

Blitz if funny.

What I'm saying Blitz is if you are running a CE, and not a SE, then you will be in Emancipation, not Caste, and if that is true, the best case scenario for your Wall Street will be in a COTTAGE CITY, not a merchant, specialist city.

Quote:
He was just saying that at 100% science slider, cottages are contributing 0 to your economy.
False.

They actually help. My personal best Wall Street in a cottage city was 550 gpt at 100% slider. It will take more than 7 merchants to match that, something which cannot be done unless you are in Caste. If you have a crazy food corp of some sort you could also run 7 merchants plus 20 Towns in the perfect site and do even better.

The discussion was about the contribution of COTTAGES in your WALL STREET CITY when operating a COTTAGE ECONOMY.

At 100% science slider, cottages are contributing ZERO... again COTTAGES are contributing ZERO to :gold: which means that they are contributing NOTHING to your Wall Street. I'm pretty sure Wall Street has no effect on :gold: generated from :hammers: either.

You see, that city you posted above, should have OXFORD in it, not WALL STREET. Because all those towns are contributing EVERYTHING to science! Wowsers!

So maybe I should be playing on your level...

EDIT: I wasn't talking about being able to gain wealth in a city when research is @ 100%. I was talking about Wall Street not being useful in a cottage city when using 100% science slider. It isn't. Because Wall Street does not effect hammers devoted to wealth. It is only useful in such a city if that city also has 7 merchants working. In which case, I'd rather run Caste System with a dozen merchants in a different city.

At 100% science slider, cottages are contributing ZERO... again COTTAGES are contributing ZERO to which means that they are contributing NOTHING to your Wall Street. I'm pretty sure Wall Street has no effect on generated from either.

I follow all of Crushers post because he is always supplies great information. AnyHoo, Crusher is obviously right. Blitz is obviously trying to fight when he knows hes wrong. Keep up the good work Crusher! Looking forward to more reads. Thank you.

For anyone even tuning in to this mess it should be noted that work shops and specialist will always produce more gold at full slider than towns. But crusher did already state that towns running a cottage economy will produce more gold at full slider than towns running a a cottage economy who try to use nothing but merchants.

I really dont see the need for some outlandishly chosen words. Sure some methods are better but in the context of what we see there is no flaw in crushers example.

At 100% science slider, cottages are contributing ZERO... again COTTAGES are contributing ZERO to

Thats just not right Blitz and its already been shown.

But the discussion here was where to put the WALL STREET. And as far as I know, gold from wealth is added AFTER all multipliers. So at 100% science slider, cottages ARE contributing absolutely ZERO to the amount that WALL STREET boosts.

As pointed out earlier the player is the one who determines how to use their sliders and production. So at 100% science slider, cottages ARE contributing to the amount of gold.

Commerce isn't gold. You'd only get gold from Towns if you are running Universal Suffrage and building wealth in that city.

Commerce isn't gold. You'd only get gold from Towns if you are running Universal Suffrage and building wealth in that city.

Exactly. That's why towns produce gold at 100 science slider.

Commerce isn't gold. You'd only get gold from Towns if you are running Universal Suffrage and building wealth in that city.

Go back and look at the example provided and that's what you will see. Commerce isn't science either, you also have to move the slider. You seem to be agreeing with Crusher now since your providing an example which he has already given.

I'm not saying that Towns can't produce wealth at 100% science slider. I am saying that IF you are planning to run 100% science slider (in a perfect world), putting WALL STREET in a cottage city might not be the best choice. Because the gold from wealth is not modified by building boosts.

That was the discussion here these last pages. If you are running max science slider, you are better of using the Wall Street in combo with gold specialists and raw gold income than with cottages. And Oxford in a cottage city. And similarly, if you are running at low science slider you are better of with science specialists and other raw beakers in the Oxford city.

If you are running max science slider, you are better of using the Wall Street in combo with gold specialists and raw gold income than with cottages.

Towns have the potential to produce more gold than 7 merchants - the maximum slots available while in emancipation. If you have crazy food and can run 7 merchants + work shops, then of course, specialist are better.

Thing is, 3 gold from a merchant becomes 3 * 3.00 = 9 (100% Wall Street, 50% bank, 25+25% Market+Grocer). 7 merchants would then be 63 gold. (correct me if I am wrong here)

The 65 gold from Hammers in your city is just that. 65 gold from hammers. The gold get's no modification from Wall Street. So sure, you can place wall street in this city, too bad it won't do anything. The city with the 7 Merchants would produce the 63 gold no matter what you produce in the city PLUS the gold you'd get from wealth if you wanted to.

It's a simple WB test - no tricks needed. All you have to do is get 20 Towns, building wealth, with the appropriate modifiers like forge, market, grocer, bank, factory, power, industrial park, levee's and throw in Wall Street. Then you do the same with a 7 merchant city maxed out in food with no extra hammers and the Town city will be the one producing more gold at 100% slider. There's not trick to it. It's just the way it works out.

EDIT:

Some people trying to disprove my 100% correct statement have not been using all the necessary buildings nor meshing Civics!

Crusher1 is completely correct. He is also completely off-topic.

Building wealth has no effect on where your GP farm or Wall Street city should be located.

Crusher1 is completely correct.

:love:

He is also completely off-topic.

No :love:

Building wealth has no effect on where your GP farm or Wall Street city should be located.

I usually put it in the city with at least 1 shrine, 1+ corporations, and work shops when applicable - be that good or not. My typical late game WS city usually brings in 400-550 gpt when my science slider is at 100%.

So, yea, I almost never use towns for a WS - but that wasn't my point. My point was Towns will produce more gold at 100% slider than 7 merchants.

:love:
So, yea, I almost never use towns for a WS - but that wasn't my point. My point was Towns will produce more gold at 100% slider than 7 merchants.Yeah, but only when producing wealth while the city with the 7 Merchants does not produce wealth. And even so, the towns are like the worst possible candidates for producing wealth. (of improvements that produce at least 1 hammer). You'd get the same amount from unimproved forests with the same buildings in the city.

My point was Towns will produce more gold at 100% slider than 7 merchants.

But since Wall Street has zero effect on that 20town city, it's useless to our discussion of where to build it.

Yeah, but only when producing wealth while the city with the 7 Merchants does not produce wealth. And even so, the towns are like the worst possible candidates for producing wealth. (of improvements that produce at least 1 hammer). You'd get the same amount from unimproved forests with the same buildings in the city.

True, but sometimes you don't get to pick where that shrine ends up, especially if it's captured. And if it's a good shrine, you might as well put wall street there too etc etc. And if you have any science multipliers at all, bulldozing those towns is a little silly too...and you'd definitely want to work them over merchants, especially in US.

But no, one should not deliberately cottage a city just to put wall street there if the plan is to run 100% science, even though in practice it can happen.

Thats true. You never have full control of what happens in a game.


Whatever you do however, if you found some corporations. Make sure you found em in the Wall Street city :p - At least here, we can have that control.

Oh for the love of Pete. The conversation was about where Wall Street should go. Someone suggested it was a great idea to put it in a cottage spammed city. Great idea. Unless you're cottage spammed city is running 100% science.

This has nothing at all to do with building wealth. Wall Street does not multiply wealth gained from hammers. This statement was not arguing the merit of a city that is able to feed merchant specialists either. The statements were made back and forth about how a TOWNS :commerce: (COMMERCE) output would add to the gains of a Wall Street City. At 100% science, a TOWN'S COMMERCE-BASED gold output is ZERO. Regardless of building wealth with the :hammers: that UnivSuff supplies. That's not part of the discussion at hand.

I can't understand how this is so confusing. 100% science means that the commerce output of a town contributes ZERO to :gold:.

That's all I'm saying. Nothing to do with merchants or building wealth or shrines or corporations... just the COMMERCE output of a town. Because you can build wealth, have merchants, and a shrine or corporation in any city regardless of having any towns or not. The point is that the GOLD gained from COMMERCE OUTPUT would be the same in a city with ZERO cottages as that with 20 cottages with a 100% science slider.

Exactly (10 chars)

Nothing to do with merchants or building wealth or shrines or corporations.

It has everything to do with what you do with your production. When building wealth at 100% science Towns do build gold. Honestly, its pretty obvious you have some kind of a grudge against crusher. He hasn't spoken anything untrue.

Crusher1 is completely correct

Which makes Blitz completely wrong.

Sigh

The conversation was never about whether towns can produce gold at 100% science.
The conversation was about where Wall Street should go.

I don't get why you are getting hung up on this. No one has said towns can't produce wealth.

I agree it has gotten a bit off topic but crusher has also made other post about where he thinks is the best place to put it. Its come down to some off base people trying to say towns dont produce gold at 100% slider when they do. They just look silly saying different and its annoying to see people throw out garbage just to pick a fight.

I agree it has gotten a bit off topic but crusher has also made other post about where he thinks is the best place to put it. Its come down to some off base people trying to say towns dont produce gold at 100% slider when they do. They just look silly saying different and its annoying to see people throw out garbage just to pick a fight.

Obviously you can't read.

The statements were made back and forth about how a TOWNS (COMMERCE) output would add to the gains of a Wall Street City. At 100% science, a TOWN'S COMMERCE-BASED gold output is ZERO.

I said that. If this is wrong...
Which makes Blitz completely wrong.
Then you are playing a different game. The wealth gained from towns in Universal Suffrage is ONLY gained from building wealth at 100% science. There is no wealth gained from a town if you are either not in Univ.Suffrage or not building wealth. It's just not possible. Furthermore, Wall Street does NOT affect wealth gained by :hammers: which is exactly the type of wealth gained from towns at 100% science.

That's what the whole discussion was about. I have nothing against Crusher1, he often gives good advice. However, in this discussion, he was NOT correct. Wealth created by :hammers: will be the same for a plains farm as it is for a grassland town at 100% science. This is really the most basic of game mechanics and, frankly, I'm sick of the inability to read.

I won't kick some poor guy when he is down and out, but when they are down, and out, and blatantly false and show boating the mistake to boot - pun intended!, then.......

Pass blitz a Kick.

A few others have already started so I suppose I'll join the crowd.

Crusher1 is completely correct. He is also completely off-topic.

Sums it up.

Alright, so I've been wading through this thread and I'm mystified about Crusher's arguments.

Delhi is a very nice city. I like it. Placing Wall Street there, however while running 100% science is nonsensical. The entire purpose of WS is for it to double gold production. That city of Delhi is producing 65 gold, all from hammers. If you delete WS from that city, it will still produce exactly 65 gold. Hence, that fact alone proves the argument beyond all contestation. Wall Street does nothing in that city. It is utterly pointless. There can be no argument here. Great, so the cottages produce hammers, which then permits Delhi to output gold, but since WS doesn't multiply those hammers, WS has no effect in that city.

Now let's get our numbers straight and just compare apples to apples. Let’s presuppose Free Speech and Universal Suffrage as our civics. The base of this city is all grassland with 20 cottages. Those 20 cottages produce 42 food (which will allow for a size 21 city and an extra merchant specialist), 140 commerce and 20 hammers. That 140 commerce is multiplied by 1.75 (university, library and observatory; come on, don't pretend that you have a research lab there too), for a total of 245 beakers. The 20 hammers become 40 (forge, factory, power) plus 9 for the specialist and we obtain 49 gold. The total resulting output then is 294 gold/beakers and 6 gpp points.

An interesting point to consider is what would happen if we did run 6 merchants. We'd lose 12 food and be down to 30, thus requiring us to farm 6 squares to make it back up to 42 food. With 6 merchants and 6 farms, that would leave us with 9 cottages to run and 5 fallow squares. Now, the truth here is that we could put those merchants back onto the grassland for awhile and grow the city up to size 26. In simple terms, 6 farms and 14 cottages would produce 52 food, thus allowing for our 6 merchants.

So let's do the math.
Those 6 merchants would produce 54 gold, plus the 28 (14x2) for wealth for a total of 81 gold.
The 14 cottages would produce 172 beakers.
That's an output of 253 gbpt. Which is 41 less than Crusher's Delhi.

Yet, don’t forget that a size 26 city would get better trade routes than a size 21 city. Just to guestimate, I’d suppose an extra 2 commerce per trade route; so 10 more commerce. Which would be about 18 more beakers and reducing the difference from 41 to 23.

What does all of this mean? Does this mean that WS is a useless item to even bother with? The answer, of course, is actually no, because we're forgetting one thing here, a city running 6 merchants (producing 36 gpp) would have produced some GM's along the way. Thus, we must ask how many GM's would it take to make WS worthwhile in this city?

The answer is just 2. For those 2 GM’s would contribute another 36 gold to Delhi, but with their two food, they would also permit us to rip out another farm and replace it with a cottage.

Then we’d be looking at the following:
5 farms, 15 cottages, 6 merchants, 2 GM’s.
90 gold plus 30 wealth for 120 total gold.
And 184 beakers.
For a net gain of 304 plus the 18 for better trade routes brings us to 322. Now we’re 28 points ahead of Crusher’s Delhi.

Now what if we had 4 GM’s?
4 farms, 16 cottages, 6 merchants, 4 GM’s
126 gold plus 32 wealth for 158 total gold.
196 beakers
354 Net profit. Plus 18=372

Killing Crusher’s Delhi now. By a lot.

Now what if we had 6 GM’s?
3 farms, 17 cottages, 6 merchants, 6 GM’s
162 gold plus 34 wealth for 196 gold.
208 beakers.
404 net profit. Plus 18 for 422.

You get the picture now.

In effect, each GM is worth about 30 gbpt, which equals 3 fully mature Universally-Suffraged, Free-Spoken cottages.

I suppose that what all of this demonstrates is that WS is absolutely useless without a shrine or settled GMs and GPs to multiply. Additionally, it shows that the mass usage of all cottages is vastly inferior to a mixed city that incorporates farms, cottages and specialists.

The ultimate and definitive lesson here is, if you are going to run science at a high rate (and most of us do), the only way to make the WS work well for you is to put it somewhere where it can be independent of the commerce slider and therefore must be coupled with either a shrine or with a number of settled GMs and GPs. Otherwise, you’re simply doing what Crusher does and wasting hammers on an expensive building that will do nothing for you.

The case has now been proven and can be closed.

The Snug is right.
And if we add Corporations to the equation...the profit from WS
can be enormous.
Best regards,

Thank you for the explanation, Snug, that's all I was trying to say.

I won't kick some poor guy when he is down and out, but when they are down, and out, and blatantly false and show boating the mistake to boot - pun intended!, then.......

Pass blitz a Kick.

A few others have already started so I suppose I'll join the crowd.
And those people failed to read the entire thread. If you are still arguing or looking for support that Wall Street does something for towns at 100% science, then you're a lost cause. Even in UnivSuff with the 1:hammers: building wealth. Because WS does not do anything for :gold: that comes from :hammers:.

I'll be posting a Worldbuilder of this situation tonight just to show so we can end this nonsense.

Five flavors of GP farms and he is not mentioning a Great Artist pump for cultural victories. Bummer. I love the city with only GA wonders in there like NE, Globe, SoZ, parthenon, SC, etc...
So I guess this should be 6 flavors of GP farms. :p

http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr212/Takorax/trollface.jpg

Towns still contribute a boatload of beakers at 100%:science: slider, but that's the only reason why you'd want them in your Wall Street city, as they get no extra benefit at all from gold multipliers. In a hypothetical 100%:science: slider scenario, towns would have no bearing at all on your decision of where to place Wall Street, although that doesn't mean towns in your Wall Street city becomes undesirable.

In a hypothetical 100% slider scenario, towns would have no bearing at all on your decision of where to place Wall Street, although that doesn't mean towns in your Wall Street city becomes undesirable.


That's all I've been trying to say.

EDIT: Here's the screenshots I promised to finally end this argument.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f25/compressionrati0/Wall_Street_Doesnt_Help_Built_we-1.jpg
Here we see the grassland towns in Universal Suffrage. Notice the Wall Street and the # of hammers (27 b/c I didn't 1 plains tile to grassland) and the gold per turn (27) and the 100% slider.
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f25/compressionrati0/Wall_Street_Doesnt_Help_Built_Wealt.jpg
Here we see the plains farms I was talking about. Notice the Wall Street and the # of hammers (26) and the gold per turn (26) and the 100% science slider.


See. Towns mean nothing to Wall Street at 100% slider.

ACtually, I"m shocked that no one's mentioned the National Park. I always wait until the end of the game and couple the NE with my NP. I will typically get 13 or 14 free specialists in some worthless wobegotten tundra city. And the GP's will now come at a time when they'd normally be difficult to get, and so I can start founding my corporations quickly and easliy.

My god, I'm totally dismayed that my simple question back on page 2 ballooned into this mess. If it makes anyone feel better I've learned a few things reading this.


Which makes Blitz completely wrong.

I'm no rocket scientist and I don't know the game as well as some others, but I don't think Crusher being right means Blitz is wrong. Their arguments seem like skew lines, each arguing different things that don't intersect.

Crusher, sometimes you are not 100% clear and it took me a while to pick up the underlying foundation of your point, but it does make sense in the end.

Blitz is very clear and my only confusion there is why others don't understand him.

Crusher, sometimes you are not 100% clear and it took me a while to pick up the underlying foundation of your point, but it does make sense in the end.

Reading back through the topic, I'm still not sure what his point is. He seems to have implied if not outright stated that towns are more important than merchants for a good Wall Street city...

My main argument was that unless someone is in a SE/CASTE Towns have more potential for a better WS than specialist.

Which might be true if you running at a somewhat low slider, but not at 100%.

you’re simply doing what Crusher does and wasting hammers on an expensive building that will do nothing for you.

My average WS city brings in over 400 gpt at 100% :science: slider. Everything I said earlier is correct, but as already mentioned, off topic - nor do I usually use towns myself - the point was and still remains that 100% slider, towns, while in emancipation - not caste will produce more gold in a WS city then 7 merchants with no excess food to work any production tiles at all.

the point was and still remains that 100% slider, towns, while in emancipation - not caste will produce more gold in a WS city then 7 merchants with no excess food to work any production tiles at all.

I don't think so. As I already demonstrated, a couple of GM's will make the WS produce more gold, and with 6 merchants and the National Epic, you will have more than a couple of those.

My average WS city brings in over 400 gpt at 100% :science: slider. Everything I said earlier is correct, but as already mentioned, off topic - nor do I usually use towns myself -

That has nothing to do with your US cottages. Your towns would have nothing to do with the gold output of this, or any other, city. None at all. You have no argument here. The max cap of gold that towns could produce in a WS city at 100% science slider is 40. That's it. 40. Max. That's 20 base hammers multiplied by 2 for a forge, factory and power. Okay, I'll concede that under bureaucracy you could add another 50% (10 hammers for 10 gold), but I imagine with that many cottages, a person would prefer to run Free Speech.

As to 400 gpt, not even with a lot of production squares building wealth is this possible. You would have to have 200 hammers for this to be possible, and unless you have a remarkable mining.inc industry, there's just no way you're going to get 200 hammers.

The only possible way for a city, at 100% science, to produce 400 gpt is if it were to have a vast religion, a vast corporation, or a lot of settled GM's for the WS multiply.

To reitterate my earlier post, I explicitly demonstrated that a city with 6 farms, 14 cottages and 6 merchants would produce 82 gold as opposed to your 40. That's twice as much gold, 40 more units. And with only 2 GM's gold output would jump to 120 gpt. With 4 GM's it becomes 158 gpt. Your argument regarding cottages has therefore been proven utterly false. How does 40 compare with any of those numbers? It doesn't.

Again, towns (with the caveat of maintaining a high science rate, such as 100%) have nothing to do with where you should place your WS, and really, if you're looking for gold production, you really shouldn't be relying on your towns to build wealth for it. I have already proven, PROVEN, that merchants is the better vehicle for producing Gold. Facts are facts. Give me some numbers and some logic to demonstrate otherwise.

In fact, it seems rather evident by my numbers, that with any tax rate, the Wall Street city should entirely rely upon merchants rather than cottages simply because GM's are approximately 4 times better than any non-FS cottage (even moreso if you are running Representation).

Another point of Crusher's was the advantage of running Universal Suffrage precisely for the getting of the cottage hammers that he then turns into gold via wealth. I will further demonstrate that his cottage city becomes even more ineffecient than my merchant city when it is running Representation rather than Universal Suffrage.

I'll just post numbers here that will be easy to compare.
Now remember, his city possesses 0 farms and 20 cottages, and will therefore reach size 21 max with 1 merchant.

My base city will have 6 farms, 14 cottages and 6 merchants and will reach size 26 max.

Now, I'll list, in order, his city, my city under US, and my city under Rep. The numbers, in order, will be: beakers, gold and total beakers plus gold (bgpt)

Beakers Gold BGPT
Crusher 245 49 294
Me US 190 82 272
Me Rep 221 54 275

Now, of course, my city will obtain GM's, and so here's the numbers with 2 GM's
2 GMs
Crusher 245 49 294
Me US 202 120 322
Me Rep 244 90 334

4 GMs
Crusher 245 49 294
Me US 214 158 372
Me Rep 267 126 393

6 GMs
Crusher 245 49 294
Me US 226 196 422
Me Rep 289 162 451

I must also add the note that it is much easier and quicker to get 4 GM's than it is to grow 20 fully mature cottages. Because, every time that city grows 1 more level, it must then take an unworked cottage and wait however long for that cottage to become fully mature.

Hence, in conclusion, the idea of using Universally Suffraged Cottages to produce gold at 100% science is an entirely false idea in every way. My cities (especially without US) produce more gold and more science. The disparity between my city and his become even more pronounced if we are not running Free Speech.

Under Universal Suffrage, each GM is worth 2 FS Towns, and 4 non-FS towns. Under representation, each GM is worth 3 FS towns, and 5 non FS towns. For those wondering, that calculation derives from the fact that each GM provides food, and that 2 GM's provide enough food for an extra cottage or specialist. Hence, that extra production caused by the GM food counts towards its value yield.

the point was and still remains that 100% slider, towns, while in emancipation - not caste will produce more gold in a WS city then 7 merchants with no excess food to work any production tiles at all.
As already shown in screen shots, Crusher1, your 20 town city in emancipation is getting 26 gpt from building wealth. Let's say you have a forge in that city (which would make sense) that makes 32.5 gold per turn. That is UNAFFECTED BY WALL STREET which is what this discussion was about.

7 merchants in a wall street / bank / grocer / market city is going to produce 63 gold per turn. Which is more than 32.5 gold per turn. Add in the settled great merchants and/or prophets and that adds up quite quickly. Even if you had a factory too, that's still only 45.5 gold per turn. There's only a very very niche situation where your statement would actually be right. I'm really not sure why you bother arguing about this anymore. Maybe you're one of those people who just can't be proven wrong no matter what.

Another benefit of specialists is their output is constant. It doesn't matter what your slider is at. So for example if you are doing binary research, or just have a fluctuating slider, the gold from merchants or the science from your scientists stays the same.

I'm not sure what you are getting at Crusher, but those 400 GPT from your Wall Street city is clearly not from your towns. Not at 100% science slider at least. My guess is it's from Corporations or a couple of shrines.

Wall Street adds nothing to Wealth from hammers, and nothing to commerce generated by town-plots at 100% science. This is very basic Civ 4 mechanics and post #89 proved it.

Another benefit of specialists is their output is constant. It doesn't matter what your slider is at. So for example if you are doing binary research, or just have a fluctuating slider, the gold from merchants or the science from your scientists stays the same.

I'm not sure what you are getting at Crusher, but those 400 GPT from your Wall Street city is clearly not from your towns. Not at 100% science slider at least. My guess is it's from Corporations or a couple of shrines.

Hammers into wealth and research are also independent of the slider, and this is what crusher was getting at. Town hammers.

Hammers into wealth and research are also independent of the slider, and this is what crusher was getting at. Town hammers.

The most you could get from town hammers is 40 gold. I already demonstrated that you can get more gold with specialists.

Hammers into wealth and research are also independent of the slider, and this is what crusher was getting at. Town hammers.Well another benefit of specialists is they ARE multiplied by for example Wall Street. Something wealth and research isn't.

Another point of Crusher's was the advantage of running Universal Suffrage precisely for the getting of the cottage hammers that he then turns into gold via wealth. I will further demonstrate that his cottage city becomes even more ineffecient than my merchant city when it is running Representation rather than Universal Suffrage.

I'll just post numbers here that will be easy to compare.
Now remember, his city possesses 0 farms and 20 cottages, and will therefore reach size 21 max with 1 merchant.

My base city will have 6 farms, 14 cottages and 6 merchants and will reach size 26 max.

Now, I'll list, in order, his city, my city under US, and my city under Rep. The numbers, in order, will be: beakers, gold and total beakers plus gold (bgpt)

Beakers Gold BGPT
Crusher 245 49 294
Me US 190 82 272
Me Rep 221 54 275

Now, of course, my city will obtain GM's, and so here's the numbers with 2 GM's
2 GMs
Crusher 245 49 294
Me US 202 120 322
Me Rep 244 90 334

4 GMs
Crusher 245 49 294
Me US 214 158 372
Me Rep 267 126 393

6 GMs
Crusher 245 49 294
Me US 226 196 422
Me Rep 289 162 451

I must also add the note that it is much easier and quicker to get 4 GM's than it is to grow 20 fully mature cottages. Because, every time that city grows 1 more level, it must then take an unworked cottage and wait however long for that cottage to become fully mature.

Hence, in conclusion, the idea of using Universally Suffraged Cottages to produce gold at 100% science is an entirely false idea in every way. My cities (especially without US) produce more gold and more science. The disparity between my city and his become even more pronounced if we are not running Free Speech.

Under Universal Suffrage, each GM is worth 2 FS Towns, and 4 non-FS towns. Under representation, each GM is worth 3 FS towns, and 5 non FS towns. For those wondering, that calculation derives from the fact that each GM provides food, and that 2 GM's provide enough food for an extra cottage or specialist. Hence, that extra production caused by the GM food counts towards its value yield.

Yet another person completely missing the point. Crusher1s point was perfectly valid and correct. Anyone can make their point of view look stronger when they change the base argument. But, if you stick to the exact context Crusher1 laid out you get the snug looking dumber than he already does.

My God man, my numbers are proof. Use an argument that shows numbers rather than resorting to empty rhetoric.

I didn't change the base argument. I simply optimized his city. And again, the very most gold you can get from town hammers is 40, which, again, is not multiplied by WS. What part of this can you not understand?

It is now your mental intransigence which is resulting in folly.

A massive cottage city who has founded, say, Sushi + Mining Corps + a holy shrine + a few settled GMs can easily bring in much much more than 400 gpt at 100% slider if it has Wall Street.

The two bolded parts are completely unrelated at 100% science.

What I'm saying Blitz is if you are running a CE, and not a SE, then you will be in Emancipation, not Caste, and if that is true, the best case scenario for your Wall Street will be in a COTTAGE CITY, not a merchant, specialist city.

Bolded parts still completely unrelated at 100% science.

They actually help. My personal best Wall Street in a cottage city was 550 gpt at 100% :science: slider. It will take more than 7 merchants to match that, something which cannot be done unless you are in Caste. If you have a crazy food corp of some sort you could also run 7 merchants plus 20 Towns in the perfect site and do even better.

And again. The 550 gold you got was mostly from shrine/corp income. Any gold from towns came from the Universal Suffrage hammers, which are multiplied by forge/factory/power plant/Ironworks and not WS. WS is still getting no benefit from towns at 100% science.

It's a simple WB test - no tricks needed. All you have to do is get 20 Towns, building wealth, with the appropriate modifiers like forge, market, grocer, bank, factory, power, and throw in Wall Street. Then you do the same with a 7 merchant city maxed out in food with no extra hammers and the Town city will be the one producing more gold at 100% slider. There's not trick to it. It's just the way it works out.

At 100% science, a city with forge, factory, plant, market, grocer, bank, and Wall Street makes more gold from 7 merchants than from 20 towns:

7 merchants * 3 gold each = 21 gold before modifiers. 21 gold + 200% from market/grocer/bank/WS = 63 gold.

20 towns * 1 hammer = 20 hammers before modifiers. 20 hammers + 100% from forge/factory/plant = 40 hammers = 40 gold. Wall Street has no effect here. The only time 20 towns can produce more gold than 7 merchants at 100% science is during a golden age when the grass/FP towns will add 2 hammers to a tile instead of 1.

My point was Towns will produce more gold at 100% slider than 7 merchants.

And your point is wrong except during a golden age.

My God man, my numbers are proof. Use an argument that shows numbers rather than resorting to empty rhetoric.

Actually, Crushers numbers are right on track. I used WB using his conditions and the towns came out ahead every single time. Even DaveMcW agreed. But most people already know Crusher is right but that he is way off topic.

And your point is wrong except during a golden age.

Completely wrong. World Builder proves otherwise. But once again, the fact that Crusher is right is off topic.

Actually, Crushers numbers are right on track. I used WB using his conditions and the towns came out ahead every single time. Even DaveMcW agreed. But most people already know Crusher is right but that he is way off topic.



Completely wrong. World Builder proves otherwise. But once again, the fact that Crusher is right is off topic.

You are the winner!

You don't read the posts carefully do you? I have already proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is wrong.

Completely wrong. World Builder proves otherwise. But once again, the fact that Crusher is right is off topic.

Crusher is not right:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=221494&stc=1&d=1248011458

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=221495&stc=1&d=1248011458

The 7 merchant city is producing more gold than the 20 town city.

Not only is his advice about Wall Street wrong, but his off-topic point is wrong. Unfortunately, DaveMcW was wrong about this point also, a rare mistake from him.

Some people are still rather clueless for whatever reasons may be. For those smart enough to catch on, congrats. Yes, I'm off topic, yes, I'm a bit brash. Yes, I get bored sometimes and like to make specific arguments which I have already tested and know to be 100% true - if you pay attention.

I always leave room for people to hang themselves - usually the folks who don't have good listening or reading skills, and sometimes that includes those lacking basic fundamental knowledge of the game - not always.

Here was one of my previous post's - so please, for the people still needing correction, this is for you:

It's a simple WB test - no tricks needed. All you have to do is get 20 Towns, building wealth, with the appropriate modifiers like forge, market, grocer, bank, factory, power, industrial park, levee's and throw in Wall Street. Then you do the same with a 7 merchant city maxed out in food with no extra hammers and the Town city will be the one producing more gold at 100% slider. There's not trick to it. It's just the way it works out.

EDIT:

Some people trying to disprove my 100% correct statement have not been using all the necessary buildings nor meshing Civics!

So, what do we have? We have WB, No Tricks, Appropriate Modifiers, Appropriate Civics, and a Merchant City with only 7 merchants and No additional hammers - I.E. 1, and 1 only.

Crusher is not right:

O? You made a WB test which does not meet the standards I laid out. Where is you're +50% for Capital!? Yes, you need Bureaucracy! Where is your +10% for Civics!? Yes, you need State Property! Where is your Industrial Park!? Where is your Levee!? Why does your Merchant City have a 2 Hammer City!?

Obviously some people remain incorrect.


When you do it right this is what you get! Note**, if my city had a river as big as yours the difference would be even GREATER.

DaveMcW was wrong about this point also, a rare mistake from him.

Actually, Dave is very very smart, and as we can see, 100% correct. He didn't fall for the trick ;)

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s305/cseanny/Civ4ScreenShot0006-2.jpg
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s305/cseanny/Civ4ScreenShot0007-2.jpg

So what you are doing here Crusher is reinforcing the point that WALL STREET does nothing with wealth produced by hammers?
Your city is producing 78 hammers, 78 hammers that are turned into gold. 0 of that gold is being boosted by Wall Street.
It must have taken at least 10 turns, or thousands of gold or multiple population to rush Wall Street into this city. After which it does nothing, except a few merchant GPP.

@ Fox who says,

So what you are doing here Crusher is reinforcing the point that WALL STREET does nothing with wealth produced by hammers?

Once again, you need to be astute. Here is one of my older posts which is a fit everything if you will: "You wanna stay in Emancipation so you're only gonna have like 7 merchant slots open which doesn't get you more gold at 100% slider in the best case."

Now add that together with my last post here: "It's a simple WB test - no tricks needed. All you have to do is get 20 Towns, building wealth, with the appropriate modifiers like forge, market, grocer, bank, factory, power, industrial park, levee's and throw in Wall Street. Then you do the same with a 7 merchant city maxed out in food with no extra hammers and the Town city will be the one producing more gold at 100% slider. There's not trick to it. It's just the way it works out."

and it should be very clear.

Never, at any time in this thread have I said building wealth is modified by Wall Street. I have said and will continue to say, that under the conditions that I listed, when at 100% :science: Towns will produce more :gold: than 7 merchants with 1 hammer.

So I suppose DaveMcW and Voice are the only guys up for the task in the past week - very keen individuals unwilling to fall face first. I'm actually impressed.


Voice of Unreason:

No - he's just deliberately choosing not to clarify.

:love:

So yea, everyone, including myself are way off topic for continuing this, however, there is absolutely no doubt I, and a few of the other astute viewers are 100% correct - it's not even debatable.

O? You made a WB test which does not meet the standards I laid out. Where is you're +50% for Capital!? Yes, you need Bureaucracy! Where is your +10% for Civics!? Yes, you need State Property! Where is your Industrial Park!? Where is your Levee!? Why does your Merchant City have a 2 Hammer City!?

Ignoring the fact that you have never mentioned that this WS street city was also your capital, or that it would be foolish to put WS in a cottaged capital if running 100% science, or that the corporation income you mention doesn't exist in State Property, YOU'RE STILL WRONG.

The cottage city in your screenshot has 7 river tiles and is getting 7 base hammers from the levee, and 2 base hammers from the free engineer. The merchant city has no river and is getting no hammers from a levee, nor from the engineer, and you forgot to set it to build wealth. If you made a valid comparison, the merchant city would be getting 10 + 160% = 26 more gold from these missing items. That puts our merchant city at 89 gold per turn, 11 gpt ahead of your cottage city.

Comparing two cities with different buildings, base terrain, and build choice (wealth vs. not wealth) is much like arguing that you could beat Michael Jordan in a dunk contest when you're aiming at a 7 foot rim and Michael's aiming at a 15 foot rim.

tl;dr version:

The only thing Crusher1 has said in this whole topic that's made any sense or had any relevance is that you can't have more 7 merchants in a city without Caste System, and then tries to pull a CYA by acting like all the crazy nonsense he's been saying has been on purpose.

Anyone remember that pic I linked back earlier? Here's the full comic it's from, somehow the full message seems pretty relevant here. *cough*

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v466/Hawkbit/Trollface.png

He was just saying that at 100% science slider, cottages are contributing 0:gold: to your economy. That's what the slider is, the % of :commerce: going to science versus gold, right? Or do I have an error in concept (very possible).

Blitz if funny.

What I'm saying Blitz is if you are running a CE, and not a SE, then you will be in Emancipation, not Caste, and if that is true, the best case scenario for your Wall Street will be in a COTTAGE CITY, not a merchant, specialist city.


I'll freely admit to being a little slow. :)

Given that you responded to the 100% science slider statement with this, why is a cottage city the best case scenario over a merchant city with the exact same corp HQs, etc?

Wow. Crusher. I see you did not even attempt to address the proof my arguments gave. You cannot address that the most gold you can obtain from 20 cottages building wealth is 40. You could get up to 50 if it is a bureaucratic capital, but you'd be much better off running Free Speech to get an extra 40 base commerce to be multiplied rather than that 10 bureau gold.

Assinine. Totally lacking any truth whatsoever. Someone please address the max 40 gold that can be obtained by cottages. Someone, please. 40 max gold. That's it, no more.

20 cottages provide 1 hammer each under US, which can only be multiplied by 2 with a forge, factory and power to achieve 40. That is the max. How is this so difficult to understand?

6 merchants yield 6x3x3=54 gold. 54 gold. For those lacking math skills, 54 is greater than 40. In addition, it must be conceded that 6 merchants would have yielded Great Merchants that could be settled for an additional 18 gold/turn/merchant. Their can be no arguing this.

Your WB tests are illsuions. The first city is propped up by a levee and a Great Engineer, which you pass off as production from your cottages. This is a tasteless, tactless trick that is attempting to deceive the inattentive reader from the truth. Your second city doesn't possess the river and levee and Great Engineer, and has also not optimized its terrain like the city I described did.

Quit lying to the readers of this board, and use honest examples.

Wow. Crusher. I see you did not even attempt to address the proof my arguments gave. You cannot address that the most gold you can obtain from 20 cottages building wealth is 40. You could get up to 50 if it is a bureaucratic capital, but you'd be much better off running Free Speech to get an extra 40 base commerce to be multiplied rather than that 10 bureau gold.

Assinine. Totally lacking any truth whatsoever. Someone please address the max 40 gold that can be obtained by cottages. Someone, please. 40 max gold. That's it, no more.

20 cottages provide 1 hammer each under US, which can only be multiplied by 2 with a forge, factory and power to achieve 40. That is the max. How is this so difficult to understand?

6 merchants yield 6x3x3=54 gold. 54 gold. For those lacking math skills, 54 is greater than 40. In addition, it must be conceded that 6 merchants would have yielded Great Merchants that could be settled for an additional 18 gold/turn/merchant. Their can be no arguing this.

Your WB tests are illsuions. The first city is propped up by a levee and a Great Engineer, which you pass off as production from your cottages. This is a tasteless, tactless trick that is attempting to deceive the inattentive reader from the truth. Your second city doesn't possess the river and levee and Great Engineer, and has also not optimized its terrain like the city I described did.

Quit lying to the readers of this board, and use honest examples.


Those who understood were DaveMcW, Voice of Unreason, Myself, Th3 Punish3r, and of course, Crusher1. No need to hate on those of us who have also used WB and reached the same conclusion. Everyone is guilty of being off topic because you, and everyone else keep on bringing the subject up, over and over again.

The good thing is that Crusher1s point is valid and 100% correct. It was very simple to understand if you simply thought about it as so many already have. Don't hate and get jealous because you lack the ability to comprehend a fools gimmick.

Just take your medicine and admit your wrong, as so many people can clearly see, and move on.

Those who understood were DaveMcW, Voice of Unreason

These two have correctly pointed out that Wall Street does nothing for cottages at 100% science. They have both basically said that Crusher is being obtuse, deliberately or otherwise.

Myself, Th3 Punish3r, and of course, Crusher1.

...which are almost certainly the same person. No three individuals with separate brains could conceivably cling to the same lie with such vigor in the face of such clear evidence against it.

Tehehehehehe!

Wowser! You should also put DaveMcW and Voice on that list too. Matter of fact, any person who disagrees with you and proves you unequivocally wrong should be on that list too. Don't forget to put your mother, father, and boss on the list too. Actually, no. Lets put anyone who lives in California, Texas, and New York on that list too!

in the face of such clear evidence against it.

Poor sweety. The evidence is overwhelmingly against you. You got it backwards.

Kids these days. 3,000 post and still lost.

Hi all. I'm a long time Civ III player who has just recently started playing Civ IV. I have to admit that I'm really confused after reading through this thread. In my last game playing as the Ottomans I had a really nice city site with a shrine that I was going to use for my Wall Street. Anyways, after reading all these replies I decided to stop what I was doing and think about where I really wanted to put Wall Street. So I did a world builder test like a bunch of other people and now I'm even more confused. In one test I had a bunch of towns which seemed to be giving me more gold but in another test I used a city which had a bunch of food and was able to build wealth and run merchants. So basically, what do I do? I can see that towns are better in very specific circumstances like seen in a few of the above screen shots but the problem I find is that doesn't happen to often. I guess I'll just try to find a nice merchant city unless I get lucky with the perfect town city.

Hi all. I'm a long time Civ III player who has just recently started playing Civ IV. I have to admit that I'm really confused after reading through this thread. In my last game playing as the Ottomans I had a really nice city site with a shrine that I was going to use for my Wall Street. Anyways, after reading all these replies I decided to stop what I was doing and think about where I really wanted to put Wall Street. So I did a world builder test like a bunch of other people and now I'm even more confused. In one test I had a bunch of towns which seemed to be giving me more gold but in another test I used a city which had a bunch of food and was able to build wealth and run merchants. So basically, what do I do? I can see that towns are better in very specific circumstances like seen in a few of the above screen shots but the problem I find is that doesn't happen to often. I guess I'll just try to find a nice merchant city unless I get lucky with the perfect town city.

Welcome to the civ IV forums, and no it isn't always like this :lol:.

First of all, the OP is a bit dated. There are a lot approaches you can take to getting your GPP, and there is variance even at the highest levels of play. So take older articles with a grain of salt.

As for the debate, here's the basics:

Cottages/towns give commerce. The ratio of that commerce allocated to each of gold, science, espionage, and culture is set by using the sliders...which affect all of your cities at once.

However, that allocation happens at the city level, and whatever commerce is set to each of those things go through the multipliers at the city level, and your empire's output is the sum of your city outputs.

So wall street very effectively creates gold from commerce at 0% other sliders, while it does absolutely nothing with commerce at 100% science, culture, or espionage...the other multiplier buildings are in effect instead as appropriate.

However, there are non commerce based sources of gold, culture, espionage, and research. As a general rule, if you plan to keep the slider as high as possible with one kind of output (usually research), then it makes sense to use this non-commerce based sources to get the other kinds of output (like gold).

So if you run 100% commerce allocated to research, ignore :commerce: and look for the city that can produce the most raw :gold: for building wall street. Often it's a holy city, and it's difficult (or impossible) to pick what city has that. In the case of corporations where you don't have any holy cities dictating locations, you're usually best with a merchant city or just one that can build the infrastructure to get 200% gold multipliers there quickly.

Regardless, if you already have a corporation, absolutely put wall street in the HQ city (unless you have a better/more widespread corp elsewhere or one of those 40 civ mod maps where a shrine is worth 100 base gold by itself or something). Essentially at high research % (or with that as a goal) you want as much direct :gold: based income as possible in your wall street city.

Note that the above all changes if you are doing something like turning your sliders to 0% and using the gold to rush buy troops and end the game for example. Then commerce (aka cottages -----> towns) matter. A lot.

@ 101

The majority of my posts in this thread were to spark a lively debate with misdirection to bait those who would bite so don't take them to heart. You can see how some people get crazy and start making comical accusations just because people disagree with them. Keep it fun and take what you need and leave the rest.

Towns are generally the poorest choice for Wall Street to go in. Stick with Merchants or Work Shops in conjunction with Shrines and Corps whenever possible because they generally give you the best yield.

Kids these days. 3,000 post and still lost.

I can't wait to see your games... they should be amazing ... (have a look to some of Shannon's games in the hof section before saying he is lost... this is pretty comical)

Cheers

I can't wait to see your games... they should be amazing ... (have a look to some of Shannon's games in the hof section before saying he is lost... this is pretty comical)

Cheers

Has had some pretty good XOTM showings also, just in case people argue that HoF cooks settings makes them less meaningful :rolleyes:.

Never mind that you have to out-perform other people...

I can't wait to see your games... they should be amazing ... (have a look to some of Shannon's games in the hof section before saying he is lost... this is pretty comical)

Cheers

What do Shannons games have to do with anything relevant in this thread? He continues to bring up just plain bad points which have been disproved. He then resorts to accusing anyone who has proven him wrong to be the same person and why, just because a lot of people including dave and voice saw the big picture.

I can see that towns are better in very specific circumstances like seen in a few of the above screen shots but the problem I find is that doesn't happen to often. I guess I'll just try to find a nice merchant city unless I get lucky with the perfect town city.

Watch out new guy! Shannon will say you are the same person too! That's right! Anytime any one agrees with me, Dave, Voice, or Crusher you are the same person!

I dont care if shannon can play better than me or not at least I have more class than him.

I dont care if shannon can play better than me or not at least I have more class than him.

I don't think so buddy.

Norzin: "Don't take anything Voice says to heart. If you take a look at a lot of his post he has bad manner with perpetual flaming. I'm considering muting him from my forum comments for this very reason. Seriously, the guy is pretty classless and does more harm than good." (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=8262035#post8262035)

Now all of a sudden VoU is your steady, reliable source?


The majority of my posts in this thread were to spark a lively debate with misdirection to bait those who would bite so don't take them to heart.

This kinda blows my mind...you're flat out admitting that the majority of your posts contain incorrect information. I don't blame anyone who got upset with you. Now there's a noob on here looking for help and I guarantee your so-called "misdirection" is doing a fabulous job of misdirecting him.

Your arguments are still unclear, and although I thought I understood you a while back I'm no longer convinced. The city comparison you showed in post #109 is really shaky. The top example is a capital boosted by bureaucracy, has a great engineer, a river, a levee, and is building wealth. The bottom example has none of these. You're attempting to use standard scientific method without controlling the conditions...it just doesn't work.

I think it's more likely that your "misdirection" is a bad attempt to cover yourself, and also likely that Norzin is either you a loyal friend. Loyalty is great, but at the expense of truth?

You now what, this site can kiss my ass. From my very first post on this site I have got nothing but grief from arrogant people with like 5000 post who think they are god. I got my old account banned for Trolling for sticking up for my opinion and supporting who I thought was one of the most helpful posters!

Kids these days. 3,000 post and still lost.

I got my old account banned for Trolling for sticking up for my opinion and supporting who I thought was one of the most helpful posters!

I seem to recall a phrase about people not learning from the past . . .

Yes, I'm off topic, yes, I'm a bit brash. Yes, I get bored sometimes and like to make specific arguments which I have already tested and know to be 100% true - if you pay attention.

I always leave room for people to hang themselves - usually the folks who don't have good listening or reading skills, and sometimes that includes those lacking basic fundamental knowledge of the game - not always.

Call it what you will, Crusher1 says flat-out here that he designed his posts on this subject to be unhelpful. He stated things in such a way that you had to already know what he was talking about in order to understand what he meant.

This was not helpful.

Apologies for the meta-comment.

On a related topic, though, is there a way to get an Ironworks city to out-gold a Wall Street city by building Wealth?

The best WS city is going to outgold the best IW city in BtS because of corps. Spread 2 corps plus 2 shrine religions to 30 cities each (for standard-large space colony game), and the WS city will be making at least 900 gpt. A city maxed out in workshops and using a food Corp to make up the food deficit can pull in maybe 125 base hammers with Mining Inc. That comes out to 375 gpt with forge-factory-plant-IW. You could put both WS and IW in the same city for even more wealth but there's no synergy between them since they multiply different things.

In Vanilla, building wealth suffers a 50% penalty. I'm not sure about Warlords.

I'm pretty sure it's 1:1 in BtS.

I'm pretty sure it's 1:1 in BtS.

Yes, but way back when it was based on commerce rather than hammers.

Building wealth/research and the overflow mechanics have changed quite a bit from patch to patch even over the time I've been here, and I understand it was like that before I joined also.

The best WS city is going to outgold the best IW city in BtS because of corps. Spread 2 corps plus 2 shrine religions to 30 cities each (for standard-large space colony game), and the WS city will be making at least 900 gpt. A city maxed out in workshops and using a food Corp to make up the food deficit can pull in maybe 125 base hammers with Mining Inc. That comes out to 375 gpt with forge-factory-plant-IW. You could put both WS and IW in the same city for even more wealth but there's no synergy between them since they multiply different things.

In Vanilla, building wealth suffers a 50% penalty. I'm not sure about Warlords.

Sounds to me you're talking about people who don't know how to set up a REAL IW city :P

Rule of thumb, 1 hammer = 3 gold. And since I"ve been able to make over 1800 hammers in a single turn on numerous occasions, I'd like to see a WS make 5400 gold. All these on regular default maps by the way, no HoF nonsense....

That depends on how you count when you say 1 hammer = 3 gold. It's not in pure gold since hammer to gold is 1:1 with wealth. Is it overflow? Missed wonders refund? (what wonders cost more than 1800? o.O).

Rule of thumb, 1 hammer = 3 gold. And since I"ve been able to make over 1800 hammers in a single turn on numerous occasions, I'd like to see a WS make 5400 gold. All these on regular default maps by the way, no HoF nonsense....

Sure you can make huge hammers in a single turn by chopping a bunch of forests on marathon speed into a build getting a resource bonus, but that's just a one turn phenomenon. WS will produce more average wealth per turn on any map where you spread religion and corps to a good number of cities.

I think the 1 hammer = 3 gold rule applies to rush-buying, right?

A specialist can give either 2 hammers or 3 gold, hence 1 hammer equals 1.5 gold?

Building wealth is 1 to 1.

There are just too many different ways to quantify how much 1 hammer equals. Besides, perhaps I can use my army more efficiently than you can, hence my hammers are worth more than your hammers.

The majority of my posts in this thread were to spark a lively debate with misdirection to bait those who would bite so don't take them to heart. You can see how some people get crazy and start making comical accusations just because people disagree with them. Keep it fun and take what you need and leave the rest.

Yeah, right. You were deliberately wrong just to make people mad. I'm reminded of a comic I saw lately...