In your first city what do you like to aquire first.

Barracks, worker, miltary unit, explorer, etc.

I usually go warrior, warrior, settler, worker, warrior, warrior, settler in my first city. I work the tiles so that the city is size three by the time the second warrior is complete and size four after the fourth warrior is complete.

Worker-warrior-settler, unless there's a specific reason to do otherwise. Get your best tiles developed.

thats an awfull lot of warriors. I either go Warrior worker whip 1 pop warrior setler or something like fishboat setler worker warrior. Or just plain start with a worker warrior then setler.

With many improvable tiles: Worker-Warrior-Settler

With few improvable tiles: Warrior-Worker-Settler

With sea resources: Work Boat-Warrior-Worker-Settler or Work Boat-Worker-Warrior-Settler

All these are subject to change, but that's the basic idea. Sometimes I hold off on the settler a bit longer and allow for a bit more capital growth; it depends.

With many improvable tiles: Worker-Warrior-Settler

With few improvable tiles: Warrior-Worker-Settler

With sea resources: Work Boat-Warrior-Worker-Settler or Work Boat-Worker-Warrior-Settler



Could you explain a bit more about the Work Boat first start? I have always the feeling, I'm starting slower with it. I understand, your capital has time to grow while building the work boat, which should be a good thing. But when it finished the work boat, the city might be size 2 or 3, so it works 1 or 2 unimproved tiles. How do you take advantage of a "work boat first" start?

LC

Could you explain a bit more about the Work Boat first start? I have always the feeling, I'm starting slower with it. I understand, your capital has time to grow while building the work boat, which should be a good thing. But when it finished the work boat, the city might be size 2 or 3, so it works 1 or 2 unimproved tiles. How do you take advantage of a "work boat first" start?

LC

First build is either a worker or a work boat. If you start with a work boat, yes, your capital grows while you build the work boat. So it's true that you're working some unimproved tiles, but if the worker is your second build, that seafood tile is going to be a tremendous help to get that worker built. If you built a worker first, you're going to be working an unimproved tile through the build anyway. I like to get the seafood hooked up ASAP to speed up the worker.

I build worker, worker, warrior, settler, unless I have nothing for the worker to do. If there's nothing for the worker to do, I'll build a warrior while I'm waiting on some tech. If there's a seafood resource, a workboat comes first. There's an article in the war academy about starting with workers and chopping settlers, it's a good one and I'd recommend it, especially for a newcomer. :goodjob:

Scout if available, otherwise warrior. In either case I send that unit out to find any goody huts and take a look at the terrain nearby where I can build the next cities. He can explore while I build worker and settler.

First build is either a worker or a work boat.


Building a worker first only makes sense if you can put the worker to do useful things right away and keep him usefully employed, which depends on what technologies and resources you have access to at the start. The hammers (and food) spent is a major investment which needs to be justified. I usually steal my first worker or two from neighbouring civs instead, this can often be done sooner than I could have built one on my own.

My "usual" building orders look like:
- warrior, worker (whip?), warrior (or anything I can build while growing), settler

or if sea food (and fishing is known)
- work boat (whip?), worker (yes I build the worker at size 1 then, but size 1 working seafood + overflow hammers!), warrior, settler(whip?)

or if sea food (and fishing is known)
- work boat (whip?), worker (yes I build the worker at size 1 then, but size 1 working seafood + overflow hammers!), warrior, settler(whip?)

That sounds like a good idea for leaders like Augustus, who start with fishing and mining.


If there's a seafood resource, a workboat comes first. There's an article in the war academy about starting with workers and chopping settlers, it's a good one and I'd recommend it, especially for a newcomer. :goodjob:

Thanks, I'll search it :)

Building a worker first only makes sense if you can put the worker to do useful things right away and keep him usefully employed, which depends on what technologies and resources you have access to at the start. The hammers (and food) spent is a major investment which needs to be justified.

I would argue that the benefits of working as early as possible are so great that there is pretty much nothing that can justify not making absolutely sure that there is something for an initial worker to do. If you have an animal resource or a crop special by freshwater (and chances are that you do), working it will double that square's productivity and thus almost double your entire empire's productivity from the turn the work is completed. Subsequent work provides similarly large boosts, and even for non-specials that only add one bonus factor of production, the gain is still massively significant. And because it's not a one-time bonus, if you build a worker ten turns earlier than someone else, every square that is worked is going to be worked ten turns earlier than for your opponent, and provide that much production benefit that contributes to your future production of all the other things your initial cities need to produce. Even building roads to increase future efficiency of worker/unit movement provides a massive (but less quantifiable) benefit.
The turn advantage gained from worker first is really quite massive (can you tell I had my eyes opened by Velociryx's amazing SMAC guide?). The only time I wouldn't build worker first would be with fishing as a starting tech and a good seafood resource. Maybe warrior first if I had a starting scout and I found Shaka right next to me (with BetterAI and Aggressive AIs). Or multiplayer, of course.

So yeah, if keeping workers occupied means researching agriculture (or even AnHus as well) before heading off to mining/BW, so be it (though treechops are still a massive priority in themselves, of course).

First build is either a worker or a work boat. If you start with a work boat, yes, your capital grows while you build the work boat. So it's true that you're working some unimproved tiles, but if the worker is your second build, that seafood tile is going to be a tremendous help to get that worker built. If you built a worker first, you're going to be working an unimproved tile through the build anyway. I like to get the seafood hooked up ASAP to speed up the worker.

I build worker, worker, warrior, settler, unless I have nothing for the worker to do. If there's nothing for the worker to do, I'll build a warrior while I'm waiting on some tech. If there's a seafood resource, a workboat comes first. There's an article in the war academy about starting with workers and chopping settlers, it's a good one and I'd recommend it, especially for a newcomer. :goodjob:I agree, i'd like to add that the commerce from the seafood tiles is very important too. 2 Seafood tiles means you have +/- 1.4 times research (and even better when financial) compared to working landtiles without rivers so you catch up with researching mining/bronzeworking faster and then whipping worker/settler in your size 4+ capital.

Building a worker first only makes sense if you can put the worker to do useful things right away and keep him usefully employed, which depends on what technologies and resources you have access to at the start. The hammers (and food) spent is a major investment which needs to be justified. I usually steal my first worker or two from neighbouring civs instead, this can often be done sooner than I could have built one on my own.

I did make that caveat in my second paragraph. If the starting techs offer absolutely nothing for the worker to do, and the first tech is going to take long enough, it does make sense to let the city accumulate a bit of growth at first, if possible, building a warrior or something.

The "build worker first" opening play also requires that you research worker tech first. If you've got cows, go for AH, lots of forest, BW, and so on. Early chop-rushing is amazingly powerful. If you can't keep your worker usefully employed, you're researching the wrong tech.

It's great if you can get your first workers for free, but I (and probably a lot of others) like to avoid wars that early.

recently ive been going

rax- worker-warrior-maybe another-settler

rax generally takes the time for the city to grow. but also means automatically get promoted units.

You will hardly ever go wrong with a Worker first, unless it's seriously competitive multiplayer in which case some Warriors first might be a better bet. In single player, in almost every situation it's always Worker first for me. :)

rax generally takes the time for the city to grow. but also means automatically get promoted units.

It also means you forgo a ton of hammers, food, and commerce, depending on the types of improvements you'd be making.

Here (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/earlygrowth.phphttp://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/earlygrowth.php)'s the article I was referring to earlier. It's kind of dense, but the basic points are clear. You'll never put off workers again. ;)

Mine depends entirely on what techs I start with and what land I start with.

If I start with seafood and with Fishing, the opening move is obvious. You're not going to do much better than a Work Boat.

If I start with Mining and I intend to research Bronze Working either first or second, I will often start with a warrior/scout. Since I can use that population I grew during the warrrior/scout to pop rush the worker, any delay that comes from missing hammers is made up for with the whipped population point and I get a "free" warrior or scout.

If I don't start in a position where I intend to get Bronze Working relatively soon, then I'll often start with a Worker or I'll start with a Warrior just exactly long enough to let my city grow to size 2.

I haven't started Settler first in as long as I can remember.

Stonehenge first is only good below Prince.

I made 3 different custom games about 2 months ago (?) and my goal was to come up with the best initial b/o. The goal in each scenario played was to at some point grow my capital to max population (4-emperor) with a barracks and warrior and settle TWO additional cities grown to max population (3-emperor) with a barracks and warrior. In each scenario another goal was to have 3 total workers. Anyways, the bottom line was to see which b/o could found the cities fastest and meet the above requirements.

I started with Frederick and had hunting and mining as starting techs. I made one city have no available hills to be mined (they were all tree covered or had no hills at all) but did have an AH resource only nearby. The other scenario had an AGR resource nearby only. The 3rd scenario had 1 hill immediately available to mine and also had an AGR resource.

Anyways, I found the best b/o for all three to actually be the same. Even if this meant having an idle worker for several turns, I still met the above conditions best with the following b/o:

worker/warrior/settle/worker/warrior/settler/worker/barracks

So, it may seem a bit unorthodox, or even stupid to use the same exact B/O for any given starting position, no matter what the resource layout is, BUT, after rediculous amount of testing and re-testing, for me there is no doubt which works best.

I hate coastal starts as they slow down my bottom line requirements for the above. Growing city is advantageous while getting that boat, something you can't do with a worker, however, not having that initial worker slows down the rest of the progress too much. I will regenerate if I get a coastal start, lol... Unless I am specifically trying to improve my coastal starts (which I plan to eventually!)!

I made 3 different custom games about 2 months ago (?) and my goal was to come up with the best initial b/o. The goal in each scenario played was to at some point grow my capital to max population (4-emperor) with a barracks and warrior and settle TWO additional cities grown to max population (3-emperor) with a barracks and warrior. In each scenario another goal was to have 3 total workers. Anyways, the bottom line was to see which b/o could found the cities fastest and meet the above requirements.

I started with Frederick and had hunting and mining as starting techs. I made one city have no available hills to be mined (they were all tree covered or had no hills at all) but did have an AH resource only nearby. The other scenario had an AGR resource nearby only. The 3rd scenario had 1 hill immediately available to mine and also had an AGR resource.

Anyways, I found the best b/o for all three to actually be the same. Even if this meant having an idle worker for several turns, I still met the above conditions best with the following b/o:

worker/warrior/settle/worker/warrior/settler/worker/barracks

So, it may seem a bit unorthodox, or even stupid to use the same exact B/O for any given starting position, no matter what the resource layout is, BUT, after rediculous amount of testing and re-testing, for me there is no doubt which works best.

I hate coastal starts as they slow down my bottom line requirements for the above. Growing city is advantageous while getting that boat, something you can't do with a worker, however, not having that initial worker slows down the rest of the progress too much. I will regenerate if I get a coastal start, lol... Unless I am specifically trying to improve my coastal starts (which I plan to eventually!)!One thing that you have not considered though is the opening you play in a multiplayer environment. Humans act considerably differently to AI, and will have no qualms declaring war on you in 3200 BC to take your capital with a couple of warriors.

But yes, in general that sounds like a fairly good plan for a single player game, although I find it's not good to get into a habit of always doing this or that... do what feels best for the situation, I say. ;)

No one has mentioned settler first. It may take 25 turns to get him out, but a worker takes 15 turns anyway. Having a second city producing and growing as soon as possible is big. You can then be producing a worker and a warrior at the same time. I haven't actually worked out the numbers but this method works well for me.

No one has mentioned settler first. It may take 25 turns to get him out, but a worker takes 15 turns anyway. Having a second city producing and growing as soon as possible is big. You can then be producing a worker and a warrior at the same time. I haven't actually worked out the numbers but this method works well for me.

Different starting positions create different situations so this is not set in stone.

Generally the best two tiles in a city radius are resources. A worker can usually improve these by 2F/P or more (might be less for rice). The worker can be out early, improve a resource and you may get the settler out almost as quickly and have an improved capital. This can be further helped by chopping a forest and/or building a road.

Settler first will mean a speedier second city but at the expense of letting your capital stagnate while building a settler then a worker and finally building your first improvement :cry: . So I don't do it but I'm sure your not at much of a disdvantage. The other point is your second city is earlier but I want to make sure I have a strategic resource for my seccond city and want the relevant tech popped first.

A problem with Settler first is that since you're only working one tile in your capital and one in your new city, typically you'll only have about 10 beakers per turn. The addition of the second city will induce maintainance costs, which will mean at least 10% of your research (1 beaker => 1 gold). That's a significant slowdown during the early game.

Additionally, while the effect may be the same (doubling production, food, etc), the utility of that food from the 2nd city isn't as effective as it would be from upgrading a food resource (flood plains for 3f 1c vs irrigated wheat for 6f 1c).

And finally, at higher levels, you will have to be more warry of barbs hitting your 2nd undefended city.

There was a nice experiment that is on the mainpage (can't go there now because the main page is blocked but the forums are not) so this isnt my idea but I have found that it works well...

I usually go worker - worker - settler
On the tech tree I beeline to BW

Most of the civs will tech BW before the 1st worker pops - then I chop the second worker ASAP and both chop the settler. This puts you at two workers and a second city very quickly - Noble you will be in business well before real barbarians so there is little danger - Ive used it successfully on Prince as well.

Depending on where there resources are I will improve tiles in city 1 or 2 or even chop a 3rd worker from city 2 with one of my first 2 workers.

This usually gets me off to a ripping start.

worker-warrior-settler

I look at tile yields. To a good approximation (before granaries), 1 food = 1 hammer. Add them up and call them 'production'. Commerce is a little trickier, but a reasonable rule of thumb is 2 commerce = 1 production. Assume you have all the unimproved forests you want. Those are 3P tiles, but really they're +1P tiles; you need two food for the citizen working the tile, so the net is one. There are some much better tiles available. A simple mine is +2P, twice as strong. Call a riverside mine +2.5P, half credit for the commerce.
Farmed rice is +2P (dry), +3P (next to lake/oasis), or +3.5P (next to river). Wheat and Corn are even better. Cows and Pigs are always at least +4P, very strong tiles, and riverside even better.

Your capital starts out as +4P, +8C. Growing to size two costs 22P and yields +1P for the future, if you're only growing onto a basic forest. Building a settler costs 100P and yields a +4P new city (assume the free 1C from the city offsets maintenance). Building a workboat costs 30P and yields +2P or +3P, definitely a better return. Building a worker costs 60P and returns ...

Well that depends on what tiles he improves. Pasteurizing a Cow or Pig yields +3P (switching from a 3P forest to the 6P animal). Farming an Ag resource increases its yield by +1P (dry Rice), +2P (wet Rice, dry Wheat/Corn), or +3P (wet Wheat/Corn) depending on the circumstances. Digging a Gold mine is about +3.5P (less on desert hill, more for riverside or Financial leader), though that's accepting the 2C = 1P premise. Simply mining a hill is a +1P move (switch from working a forest to a hill), or +1.5P if you gain a commerce for riverside. So the value of a worker depends on how many and which tiles he improves. But it's quite easy for it to be a large amount. If he pasteurizes a Cow and mines a riverside hill while your capital grows to size 2, you've gained +4.5P already, more than the return on a settler. And you still have the worker to do more stuff. That's a very modest example, but it suggests why worker-first is usually best. He can improve multiple tiles.

Identify your strongest tiles and maximize them.

peace,
lilnev

@Lord Parkin

About Multiplayer......AGREED (I play much much more MP myself). I always make Warrior first in MP due to fact some flamer will always walk into your border within the first 6-10 turns and try to gay your capital. When I make post in these forums though they are always geared towards SP unless the thread is specifically relating to MP due to the fact most people play SP over MP (approx. 80%)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=190502&highlight=poll

About not get into the habit of always doing this or that, I have to strongly disagree :) . I believe a person will become much much more effecient if they do the same thing over and over again. Of course you have different land layout and resource layouts but I already have a plan ahead of time how to most effeciently use them. This way there is no guess work. I have already practised all my different b/o possiblities to death beforehand, therefore when I am actually involved in the game I simply execute. I also only use 2 leaders. I find it nearly IMPOSSIBLE to master every single leader/traits/UU/UB. Like all those Brood War and Warcraft Professional Gamers..... VERY very seldom do you see a random professional user. They also put much much more importance on build orders and timing. I try to incorporate the same thing into all the games I play. Call me sick in the head but I don't care about playing with every single leader and trying all the different ways to win. I want to be the most effecient killer ^^. For me that entails few leaders, lots and lots of repeatable and boring practice in order to maximize my results, which in turn accelerates my learning curve and continually pushes my game to the next level!

@chemtech

I believe you are thinking of this post:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=154872

The new patch has nerfed chopping and therefore, imo, the strategy (unless you are imperialistic). It takes 4 chops to get one settler out now and that is alot of forest. I save my forest for GL/NE, or stonehenge/oracle/GL.