I am trying to get the hang of city specialization and I think it would be easier for me to accomplish if I knew WHY not to build everything in every city.

For example why not build Libraries in every city, or barracks, forge, etc? Each building in my view only adds good to the city.


I would really want to have a barracks in each city for when I am going to war.

Anyway I am sure there is an easy answer.

Thanks

It really depends on the city. While barracks, forge and library are generally bad examples for specialization because they are good in most cities, there are ones that aren't good everywhere:

- Markets or Groceries in cities that don't put a lot of :gold: and aren't :mad: or :yuck:
- Banks in cities that don't put a lot of :gold:
- Aqueducts in cities that aren't :yuck:
- Courthouse in your capital or cities with little upkeep
- Drydock in cities that don't produce units..

Lots of other examples. Why build a useless building when you can be building up your military?

Every time you build a building, you are making a decision not to:

- build a military unit (to deter aggressors, conquer territory, pillage)
- build research or gold
- build a different building.

If you genuinely have the time to build every building in every city and have the strongest army in the world - you have probably already won the game. Before then you need to make choices and by choosing to build a building that adds little to a city you are forgoing the opportunity to increase the size of your army. Even if you don't want to conquer, having a good sized army deters aggressors from attacking you.

Early on you don't specialize so much and every city will probably want a granary, a forge, a barracks and a source of culture (library/monument/theatre). Later on you will specialize much more as the choices of what to build become more varied. By midgame there isn't much reason to have a barracks in every city but you will probably want a courthouse.

Buildings like markets, grocers, aqueducts, universities, banks, observatories etc are expensive to build and really shouldn't be built until they convey a strong benefit to a city that is specialized or needs the bonuses to happiness/health that they convey. And then build the building that gives the maximum benefit.

how true^ same here.

The simplest answer, I think, is just that specialised cities are better, and get up and running more quickly. Improvements all take time to build, and you also have to consider your needs for units. You can't build everything at once. A city which will never produce troops or a navy does not need a Barracks or Drydock. A Library, University, Laboratory and Academy will be of very little use in a city producing 10 base beakers per turn, while those same buildings in a city producing 150 base beakers per turn will be extremely powerful. The National Epic is a fairly useless wonder if you have no plan for your Great People and are just generating them everywhere rather than in a specific Great Person farm (you'll also get less Great People unless you specialise your cities too). Theatres and other cultural buildings aren't much use if they're not border cities and/or you're not going for a cultural victory. And so on. :)

Also to note that city specialization is not just in what buildings you build, it's also in the improvements. A great-person farm will want lots of farms so you can make specialists. A production city (future ironworks) will want lots of mines, preferably on hills.

I went from no specialization to moderate specialization and it pushed me form being able to barley sneak by on noble, to crushing a noble game and being pretty competitive on prince. I was surprised in the difference it made.

It's exactly as invisiblestalke said, :
- if you're building let's say a barracks in a commerce city, you're not building a worker that would improve your land to cottages.
- if you're building let's say a market in a production city with 3 commerce (1 from city center, 1 from a riverside mine, 1 from a trade route), you're not producing a unit that will go capturing your next city

See it not as giving something up but as prioritizing things.
In the end, if you prioritize troops over a building it may end up that the building is never built.
But it's because it never was more useful than the units ;).

Ahh, I think I get it now. It is more because you SHOULD be spending your time building things more suited for the city/war.

So the buildings DO improve overall, but are not as important as specialized ones and can waste time.


Now I gotta work on figuring out what to tell my workers to build. I use to go all automation but they build too many farms.

I hope once I get this down pat, i'll finally beat the AI to riflemen even though I have grenaders wayyyy before them.

Thanks


(I think I am sucking now because I use to play on the easiest difficulty and didn't really worry about anything.)

opportunity cost

Specialization also depends on what style of game you like to play. I, for example, would rather have the game go down all the way to 2050 AD (on marathon/epic) then win in 1600 AD by domination. For exactly that reason, I usually end up building every improvement in every city because I already have the military I need and then some.

Ahh, I think I get it now. It is more because you SHOULD be spending your time building things more suited for the city/war.

So the buildings DO improve overall, but are not as important as specialized ones and can waste time.


Now I gotta work on figuring out what to tell my workers to build. I use to go all automation but they build too many farms.

I hope once I get this down pat, i'll finally beat the AI to riflemen even though I have grenaders wayyyy before them.

Thanks


(I think I am sucking now because I use to play on the easiest difficulty and didn't really worry about anything.)
I was about to say, it sounds like you're playing on one of the lower difficulty levels, where you can get away with a "build everything" approach and still win. The comments by The Lance were very revealing: city specialization is the key to moving up the difficulty levels, so the game doesn't get easy and boring for you.

As for your workers, tile improvements are also part of your city specialization. If it's going to be a commerce city, build cottages. If it's going to be a production centre, build mines, watermills, and workshops (though you'll also need farms so you have enough citizens to work all those hammer-heavy tiles). If it's your Great Person farm, you want farms and windmills to maximize food production.

When you're selecting city sites, remember that the terrain and resources can dictate specialization. If there is a lot of food and grassland, it's likely to be a GP farm. Hills mean production. If there's a lucrative resource like gold and several river tiles (especially floodplains), then it's probably best as a commerce city.

One key thing to remember is to try to include at least one really good food-producing tile in every city's fat cross (rice, wheat, corn, pigs, cows, sheep, crabs, fish, clams, deer, even an farmed flood plain will do). That makes sure you can grow and work other tiles that don't produce as much food, especially early in the game.

First of all, a good cottage city wont have enough production to build every building, and whipping a cottage city that can't regrow quickly is just stupid. Secondly, there are the buildings that are useless. Unless you have a shrine or other source of income, that bank isn't doing anything if the slider is at 100% science. Similarly, if a production city has 4 total commerce a library will give you 1 more, not worth it. Lastly, at high levels, you need the military, not the buildings for safety.

I was about to say, it sounds like you're playing on one of the lower difficulty levels, where you can get away with a "build everything" approach and still win. The comments by The Lance were very revealing: city specialization is the key to moving up the difficulty levels, so the game doesn't get easy and boring for you.

As for your workers, tile improvements are also part of your city specialization. If it's going to be a commerce city, build cottages. If it's going to be a production centre, build mines, watermills, and workshops (though you'll also need farms so you have enough citizens to work all those hammer-heavy tiles). If it's your Great Person farm, you want farms and windmills to maximize food production.

When you're selecting city sites, remember that the terrain and resources can dictate specialization. If there is a lot of food and grassland, it's likely to be a GP farm. Hills mean production. If there's a lucrative resource like gold and several river tiles (especially floodplains), then it's probably best as a commerce city.

One key thing to remember is to try to include at least one really good food-producing tile in every city's fat cross (rice, wheat, corn, pigs, cows, sheep, crabs, fish, clams, deer, even an farmed flood plain will do). That makes sure you can grow and work other tiles that don't produce as much food, especially early in the game.


I was playing a game earlier and I found I was getting somewhat confused on what to build on certain tiles. All my cities ended up being around a river. I was building a few farms along the river because it had extra food, and I was saving the non-water area for cottages... Is this what I should be doing? I found if I built too many cottages my cities would not grow at all. I can get a production city rolling pretty good, but the others i'm not too sure.

I would like to see a tutorial or maybe a map with some tiles built up to see what is ideal.

I was playing a game earlier and I found I was getting somewhat confused on what to build on certain tiles. All my cities ended up being around a river. I was building a few farms along the river because it had extra food, and I was saving the non-water area for cottages... Is this what I should be doing? I found if I built too many cottages my cities would not grow at all. I can get a production city rolling pretty good, but the others i'm not too sure.

I would like to see a tutorial or maybe a map with some tiles built up to see what is ideal.
Well, here's an example of a pretty good (though not stellar) commerce city in its very early life in my current ALC game.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC13/ALC13_640BC_05.jpg

First off, this city is right next to a river, so it immediately gets a +2 health bonus from access to fresh water. (I built it before I knew that iron was 3 tiles north, otherwise I would have built it 1 tile N--though that would have given me two useless peaks in the fat cross, and I had another source of iron; see below.) One thing to notice in general is that every tile beside a river gives one extra coin or commerce. While a lot of beginners farm tiles next to rivers, and often you have no choice, you're losing out on that extra commerce. I was playing as a Financial leader, which means that as soon as I put a cottage on a riverside tile, that thing is immediately earning 3 commerce per turn. Thus, I prefer to build cottages next to rivers wherever possible, and this city has 5 riverside tiles that can take cottages: 3 grasslands, 1 plains, and one flood plain.

I can do this and still get good production out of this city because it also has an abundance of food: pigs to the north, wheat to the west. Not to mention the flood plain will produce a +1 food surplus, while the grasslands are self-sustaining (able to feed the citizens who work them). Once I obtained Civil Service, the city itself spreads irrigation to the wheat tile. That's another benefit of placing the city next to a river tile. I also look for ways to spread irrigation using plains tiles and tiles outside of any city's fat cross, which allows me to maximize the fat cross tiles for other purposes (such as cottages). Camping the ivory tile didn't suck either: 1 food, 3 hammers, and 3 commerce (again, thanks to Financial), IIRC.

I also chopped the forest 1S of the city so I could spread irrigation from there to the other plains tiles. All the hills got mined, and most of the plains tiles not adjacent to a river got farms. Once Biology came along, I was even able to put a workshop on that unirrigable plains tile 2N 1W of the city and work it (I built the Statue of Liberty here, in fact).

So with 5 excellent cottage tiles and several good production and food tiles, this city was able to grow, work the cottages to maturity, and have the hammers to produce all the commerce and science multipliers (and several other things besides).

Here's an example of a production city:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC13/ALC13_545ADa_02.jpg

I used a Great Artist for a Great Work to steal the pigs from Isabella, then followed up with several cultural builds to hang on to them. In between, the city was able to build several other items, including military units and, eventually, the Taj Mahal. The hills were mined and, once I got Civil Service, I spread irrigation from Djenne's wheat tile (which you see to the northeast) to all the northern flat tiles. That gave me so much food that I was able to put workshops on nearly all the southern grassland tiles. While I usually like to put cottages on grassland, it was a struggle to hang on to that pig tile with culture alone; realizing I could have lost access to it, I knew I'd need to farm the northern grasslands to ensure the city would have adequate food if it lost its little piggies. Under those circumstances, it made sense to make the city focus on production. Besides, with iron, stone, no rivers, and 3 hills, production made sense.

Notice how the game provides you with enough varied tile improvements that you can generally make almost any city specialize one way or another depending on what your Workers do with the tiles. The exceptions tend to be ultra-special, one-of-a-kind cities like Great Person Farms, where food is king.

I also wonder about specialization.. Some of the hybrid cities I wonder what I should be building. I am trying to move up difficulty and i need to improve. What is a good base commerce to consider putting a science or commerce building in?

If the commerce will be going up at some point then build it. I build libraries if I have around 12-16 commerce in the early game. Later, these cities end up great when you have 10+ mature cottages. Research is very fast in 1700 when you have 10 cities with over 100 beakers per turn.

I also wonder about specialization.. Some of the hybrid cities I wonder what I should be building. I am trying to move up difficulty and i need to improve. What is a good base commerce to consider putting a science or commerce building in?

Specialization and whipping are what got me up a level, so you're on at least one of the right tracks. Here's my current science center, base 86. I don't really know how good it is relative to the masses of folk who are better than me, but I'm pretty happy with 466 beakers.

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/5151/picture2cg0.png

Dont forget some buildings have extra benefits above their 'main' use.
Markets increase gold but also provide happy faces for fur/ivory/whales
Grocers increase gold but also increases health - you will want one in a production city even if there is little commerce.
Harbours increase trade and also health from seafood
Theatres increase culture but also increase happiness - especially if you have access to dye.

The one I often forget is forges bring in extra happy faces for gold/silver/gems.


Its usually when I conquer a mature city late in the game I have to think about these - often a grocer is more useful than a bank or aqueduct would be on its own.

The funny thing about that, Jim, is that I look at those things in exactly the opposite way. Since I'm more likely to build a market to provide happiness than cash, I think of that as its main use, with the extra 25% gold a bonus. I also always forget that about forges, too.

The funny thing about that, Jim, is that I look at those things in exactly the opposite way. Since I'm more likely to build a market to provide happiness than cash, I think of that as its main use, with the extra 25% gold a bonus. I also always forget that about forges, too.

The trouble there is that if you haven't got the applicable luxuries, you're not going to get any happiness out of it. The gold, though, is unconditional. I think the same way - especially if you're trading for resources, there's no guarantee that that bonus is going to stick around. I've got a game going right now without any of the market resources, but I built them all over the place anyway for the cash.

I never remember forges' bonuses either! Damn!

Specialization and whipping are what got me up a level, so you're on at least one of the right tracks. Here's my current science center, base 86. I don't really know how good it is relative to the masses of folk who are better than me, but I'm pretty happy with 466 beakers.

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/5151/picture2cg0.png
That's a very nice science city. Nearly 500 beakers in 1800 AD is impressive.

One thing I'd be doing different with it is taking it out of stagnation. You've got room in terms of both health and happiness for that city to grow. Could you have one of the scientists work the rice tile, or is that absolutely needed by another city? Maybe replace that lacklustre plains cottage with a farm and work it to support growth. I assume you have Biology by now?

I also rarely build research, not when there are other very useful buildings still available. This city is generating a significant amount of commerce as well as science (a science city is, in a CE, just a specialized type of commerce city, after all). And you're in the red at 80% on the slider. So I'd be building (or would have already built) a bank (stock exchange in this case) as well as a grocer and a market (the latter two would lift the health and happiness caps higher). And a forge and a factory would help you get those built, and the grocer would offset their health demerits.

Regarding the tiles: lumber mills and railroads in two of those forests would make them more productive. One forest could be chopped with no loss of the health bonus. I'd choose the one on the hill; replace it with a mine for a chance at discovering a resource--looks like the city needs the hammers. By the way, when you finish Industrialism, those ivory tiles will be obsolete. You could put cottages, farms, or watermills on them, depending on your needs.

You see my point? I think you've maximized the city's research potential, but not its full potential.

Thanks, Sisiutil, I appreciate the feedback.

The rice was being used by the nearby city which provided the majority of gold to the empire (this game is past tense after last night). I contemplated the trade-off a few times, and left it with the gold city.

Some of these comments are perfect in the context of this thread. Insofar as specialization goes, I have had it in mind that, well, a city ought to be specialized! In the back of my mind I still think, like you, that if I have spare production capacity (ie. 10 beakers-worth of production while set on Research is, as you note, not really worthwile) I might as well build a bank, or a market, or what have you. And yet... This is a science city, not a financial center. If I start building financial buildings (and forge/factory to assist with this), then I'm no longer specializing, am I?

This could be said, perhaps: Since I've already specialized the city to near-scientific perfection, I ought to turn my attention to other tasks. Put another way, specialization means beginning with a focus on the particular specialty, and then expanding into other specialities when the initial needs are met. Would that be a fair statement? Is this city an example of a city that is too specialized?

Thanks, Sisiutil, I appreciate the feedback.

The rice was being used by the nearby city which provided the majority of gold to the empire (this game is past tense after last night). I contemplated the trade-off a few times, and left it with the gold city.

Some of these comments are perfect in the context of this thread. Insofar as specialization goes, I have had it in mind that, well, a city ought to be specialized! In the back of my mind I still think, like you, that if I have spare production capacity (ie. 10 beakers-worth of production while set on Research is, as you note, not really worthwile) I might as well build a bank, or a market, or what have you. And yet... This is a science city, not a financial center. If I start building financial buildings (and forge/factory to assist with this), then I'm no longer specializing, am I?

This could be said, perhaps: Since I've already specialized the city to near-scientific perfection, I ought to turn my attention to other tasks. Put another way, specialization means beginning with a focus on the particular specialty, and then expanding into other specialities when the initial needs are met. Would that be a fair statement? Is this city an example of a city that is too specialized?
Forgive me for saying so, but your approach to specialization reminds me of an old joke: "A specialist is someone who knows more and more about less and less until he knows absolutely everything about nothing". ;)

I would say your last statement is partially correct. The key is my earlier comment that a science city is just a specialized type of commerce city (the wealth city, where you will likely have at least one shrine and build Wall Street, is another).

Commerce in CivIV gets converted into science and gold. If a city has a lot of commerce, there's nothing wrong with building both types of buildings that multiply commerce into those two end products. Yes, if it's a science city, then building a University there is a higher priority than a Bank. But there's no reason why you can't build the Bank if there are no science multipliers to build anytime soon.

In fact, the tech tree usually accommodates these sorts of mixed builds. You generally get access to Writing first, then you can build Libraries. Soon after that comes Commerce; now you can build Marketplaces. But should you? It's a science city! Yeah, it is, but didn't you get the Library built a long time ago? And Universities and Observatories won't be available for several more turns. Meanwhile, that city's cottages are maturing, churning out more commerce. And the more gold you have, the higher you can set the science slider. So you can turn that commerce back into science one way or another--if not via a building, then via the slider.

Also remember that Markets increase happiness and Grocers increase health. Both let you grow the science city to a larger population, and that means you can work more cottages and/or run more scientists. Again, you're converting your city's products into science. The connection is less direct than building research, but it's there.

City specialization is basically a technique that lets you prioritize during the game, so you can make smart choices rather than just building things almost at random. It guides you towards builds that maximize a city's potential. But it's not religious doctrine. Isabella won't hate you for building a library in your shrine city (she'll have plenty of other reasons to hate you). :lol:

Got it. In hindsight, I think I applied too much gusto when I made the move from whim-based building to specialized building. (I suspect I also moved from a loving-based economy to a whip-based economy with too much gusto, but I can't hear my citizens complain above the din of scream and yowl, so I'm not too concerned about that one.)

Thanks again!

Their is a great guide to specialization in the war academy, I know it has helped me alot.

The funny thing about that, Jim, is that I look at those things in exactly the opposite way. Since I'm more likely to build a market to provide happiness than cash, I think of that as its main use, with the extra 25% gold a bonus. I also always forget that about forges, too.Same here. And the Harbor is usually mainly used as a health building in my cities, with the extra trade as a side benefit (except in the really large cities, where the trade is the more important benefit).

As far as city specialization goes, it's important to keep this in mind: a production city really doesn't need any commerce, but a commerce city still needs some production to get the necessary buildings going. Sure, you can whip or pay, but normal production is still the best way to get things built over the course of the game, especially later on.

The main area of specialization I need to work on is GP farms; I tend to either forget about that one or run a pseudo-GP farm in my science city, which is a no-no.

Great thread, by the way ^^

How many base hammers do you suggest in a commerce city?

How many base hammers do you suggest in a commerce city?

Depends. Got a high food resource like corn or pigs, and the balls to whip the people that resource lets the city have? You can get away with barely any. If you're building the old fashioned way, 10 seems reasonable. Thuogh again, it depends if you built a forge, if you're boosting with organized religion, if you're running universal suffrage to make that town spam also give you hammers, etc.

How many base hammers do you suggest in a commerce city?

My instinct is 4 or 8, on the grounds that you can take your time up to the point where you are capable of buy rushing what you need.

An interesting question might be "what is the cost of the infrastructure for a commerce city?"

60 :hammers: Granary
120 :hammers: Forge
120 :hammers: Courthouse
30 :hammers: Monument
80 :hammers: Temple

Maybe some of that you can shave off, but we're already looking at 400+ :hammers:, and we haven't even got any commerce multipliers to play with. We still need some combination of...

60 :hammers: Monastery
90 :hammers: Library
200 :hammers: University
150 :hammers: Market
150 :hammers: Grocer
200 :hammers: Bank

At 4 :hammers: per turn, you are looking at 200 turns to get all this done... I think you'd want to be doubling that rate; 200 turns feels awfully slow to me.

Of course, if the food resources are available, whipping becomes a lot more viable as an alternative to base hammers.

Also, with commerce cities, you want to make sure all forest is cleared so you can cottage up that land the forest is on. So you can use forest chops to help speed up production of buildings.

Personally, I go ahead and mine hills on commerce cities early in the game, then go back and build windmills as needed later in the game. When you get Replaceable Parts, the windmills provide a good benefit to commerce cities.

Alternatively, if you have a commerce city that's got a lot of food, grassland hills can be cottaged. I never cottage a plains hill, though, since it won't generate any food, and always go with a windmill instead.

Alternatively, if you have a commerce city that's got a lot of food, grassland hills can be cottaged. I never cottage a plains hill, though, since it won't generate any food, and always go with a windmill instead.

Are you sure about that? I could just be forgetful but I don't believe you're able to cottage hills of any sort. I've never seen a cottaged hill, that I'm certain of.

http://www.imagehosting.com/out.php/i297809_cottagedhill.jpeg

I tend to deal with hills like ratrangerm, except will occasionally cottage grassland hills.

Are you sure about that? I could just be forgetful but I don't believe you're able to cottage hills of any sort. I've never seen a cottaged hill, that I'm certain of.

If I'm not mistakened, you can cottage grassland hills, but not plains/desert/tundra hills. Personally, I've always wanted to cottage a forest... <_<

Are you sure about that? I could just be forgetful but I don't believe you're able to cottage hills of any sort. I've never seen a cottaged hill, that I'm certain of.

I'm certain.

The mechanics are somewhat odd. The relevent settings are in CIV4ImprovementInfos.xml. You'll find there that cottages can be built on grassland or plains (the TerrainMakesValid settings), provided the tile has at least one food (the PrereqNatureYields settings).

Therefore, you can build a cottage on a grassland hill (which has one food) but not on a plains hill (no food). You can build a cottage on a plains hill that has sheep (because the sheep provide the food that you need). You can build a cottage on a grassland hill that has a forrest, but if you want to cottage a grassland hill with a jungle, you have to chop the jungle first (because the jungle masks the food). Unless, of course, the jungled grassland hill happens to have pigs...

If I'm not mistakened, you can cottage grassland hills, but not plains/desert/tundra hills. Personally, I've always wanted to cottage a forest... <_<

You can get cottage'd forests with the alt-w command. In the world builder, you can even build cottaged sea and coastal tiles with forests.

If you want to try something silly but fun, put together a city with just enough land to give yourself mined hills with Copper, Iron, Aluminum and Stone or Marble directly on your capital. Then give yourself the remaining big fat cross with coastal tiles with seafood resources and Forests. Drop cottages on the coastal tiles on which you don't put fishing boats and then run rivers and railroads up and down the big fat cross area (and run the railroads one tile outside the BFC).

Now there is a city in which you can build everything. I tried that for a One City Challenge once on a lark and I found I had to run the Caste System civic just to keep up with the overflowing population that I had. Absolutely rediculous how quickly that city shot into the stratosphere.

The best way to learn the value of city specialisation is to play on a much higher level than you are used to. Then, you are in such a race with the AI to do anything that every turn becomes vital. Every turn or hammer spent on something not absolutely necessary is just one step closer to getting your head smashed in by Genghis Khan.