Got a couple questions regarding SE and GP farm.

I have never used Specialist economy. CE has always been my style of playing. I'm currently on monarch, but i'll have a go at emperor soon, and i've read that SE is the only way to go, especially when u are not financial. I have read alot about how to run a SE economy lately, but i just don't know when to use it instead of CE.

Do you always use SE on emperor and up?
Do you need lots of food resources / grasslands to make a SE city?
Do you go hybrid, wich means some CE cities and come SE cities, or are all except your production cities SE?
What about when you got the financial trait, is SE still the way to go, or would CE be better?

Lastly, how early do you start making a GP farm? Personally i never make one until the specialists from great liberary are gone, that city seems to create more GP pts than my GP farm early on anyways. Is this too late in your opinion?

I have my own theory for that.

At lower levels, your cities can grow big without hitting happiness and health caps.
At higher levels, it's not possible to grow past size 4 for quite a while.

So in the beginning, at higher levels, you won't work cottages anyway, you will work the specials (resources) or mines if gunning to a wonder or rushing units. So it's not efficient to build cottages you won't work!
You're not really running a SE, you're just working your best tiles, and those aren't cottages.

Then the best strats are those that either get you the happiness to work more tiles (including representation from pyramids or HR with monarchy via oracle, or capturing neighbours' capitals loaded with resources) or to live with those few population points and still give you techs and production (scientists for lightbulbing and whipping for production).

It's not so much about which is better, but about which is doable :crazyeye:

You can do fine on emproer and imortal with CE as long as you do some lightbulbing for trading.

A solid ecomony is going to utilize both cottages and specialists.

I'm still trying to figure out what the hell people mean when they say SE vs. CE. I assume when you say it's a SE, that it means you're going to be on some sort of anti-cottage kick. But, you have to pay for your specialist cities somehow, so why people would refuse to utilize cottages is beyond me.

For a short game (e.g. pangea domination), merchants would be fine, but if you're in it for the long haul (e.g. continents space race), then you'd be crazy not to work cottages.

they dont refuse to make cottages, they just prefer to do something else, farms for example :)

Christ, that's my whole point. If they aren't refusing to build cottages, then they're obviously helping to finance the "SE" with cottages (i.e. you aren't playing an no-cottage variant game). So why are they even calling it a "SE" at?

If it's not one or the other, then why would anyone need to argue the one vs. the other?

A solid ecomony is going to utilize both cottages and specialists.

I'm still trying to figure out what the hell people mean when they say SE vs. CE. I assume when you say it's a SE, that it means you're going to be on some sort of anti-cottage kick. But, you have to pay for your specialist cities somehow, so why people would refuse to utilize cottages is beyond me.

For a short game (e.g. pangea domination), merchants would be fine, but if you're in it for the long haul (e.g. continents space race), then you'd be crazy not to work cottages.

I gather some people cottage their capital to take advantage of Bureaucracy, and maintain that as their sole source of income. Others manage to skip even that, and build exactly zero cottages. I have yet to read somebody's report of pillaging masses of cottages when taking over land from another empire, so strict SE players do eventually end up with them. On the other hand, the AI caters to SE players anyway by building a ridiculous number of farms.

You speak in a lot of absolutes, but the experience of plenty of players, as evidenced in messages throughout the forum, suggests that your assessment is wrong. Have you tried playing a strict SE game? It might help you resolve the things you say are beyond you.

Have you tried playing a strict SE game? It might help you resolve the things you say are beyond you.

I must have forgotten what it was that is beyond me and I needed to resolve.

Could you refresh my memory?

I always run CE. I just can't get into the SE mindset well enough to play it effectively. Plus i believe that CE is better, unless you have Pyramids and high food cities. I don't speak for anyone else however, so don't attack me for attacking the SE. Right now I am playing the Immortal game that Snaaty set up with Gandhi and am about to get to liberalism doing quite well with a CE and a monster GP farm.

By the way, when did we stop calling it "cottage spam"?

when some genius worked out that CE is easier to type.

Also i always associated cottage spam with the worker-settler-worker build queues rather than just building cottages and normal expansion.

SE- i predominanatly cottage my capital- this supports the rest of my empire whilst i run at lower levels of tech but more specialists.

I must have forgotten what it was that is beyond me and I needed to resolve.

Could you refresh my memory?

Of course, glad to help:

But, you have to pay for your specialist cities somehow, so why people would refuse to utilize cottages is beyond me.

I still have a mostly CE mentality, but I'd like to try a SE for a change just to test it out. Of course, these things can be more fun (and educational) if lots of us try it.

Anybody want to roll up a game and we can all give it a shot? Maybe play until 1AD or so and then post and compare notes?

Of course, glad to help:

I don't know why I'm even responding, but Ankh, the reason I say it's "beyond me" is not because I do not understand the benefits of specialists. It's not about something I'm missing. It's about something the anti-cottage gamer is missing.

I don't know why I'm even responding, but Ankh, the reason I say it's "beyond me" is not because I do not understand the benefits of specialists. It's not about something I'm missing. It's about something the anti-cottage gamer is missing.

anti-cottage gamer? Man, you need to check your head.

From begining of Civ4 everyone on this board were only for building cottages. Answer for everything was: Buld more cottages.
It took me more then year to prove that different strats are effective and more then CE in sertan cases. Finally people start to undestand that Civ is richer then anly coottages game. There is different ways to play and really, on higher levels you can still win knowing only cottages spamm start, but you will be handicaped. Cottages spamm is not sutable for every situation and as dificulaty increase it become less then optimum more and more often.

Is there anything better than cottage spam with 1 GP farm?

Yes Dawe, there is.

I generally play cottage economy when I'm too lazy to micro-manage...SE requires quite A LOT of micro-management, I've heard it's a lot easier with Blake's Better AI mod, in the City screen you just force Assign 1 Specialist, hit the macro-manage Great People button at the bottom of the screen and the Governor does the rest.

Generally speaking, It's best play SE when Philosophical, a trait that gives you 100% more GPP. Other traits that have synergy with the SE are Industrious, Creative, Expansive and Organized.

I've been having an Idea of playing a SE with Augustus, Cre/Org and trying to manipulate and maximise the Roman UB, which gives you an extra 25% GPP.

Spiritual is also good with SE for switching to slavery for a few turns to whip out units and buildings before going back to CS. I just though of a very useful element of SE which I have not seen before on this forum. No matter what your commerce rate is, the culture/lux slider gives 1 :). Therefore, during war, it costs the SE runner almost nothing to deal with WW, while it drastically reduces the science of the CE.

Yes Dawe, there is.

Nah, impossible. :D

I just though of a very useful element of SE which I have not seen before on this forum.
Consider yourself lucky not to have endured all of the other discussion. And I do mean all.

I probably coined the terms (not SE or CE, but rather their verbose counterparts)... so here's my definition for how I used them: Specialist economies are when more commerce comes from Specialists (and their resulting GP) than from Cottages, and you run the Civics tuned to Specialists and GP generation. Cottage economies are when more commerce comes from Cottages than Specialists, and you run the Civics tuned to Cottages.

(Shrine economy is another type... ShE can kick butt in some cases. ;) )

The economy is SE or CE to the extent of the ratio of commerce output.

If you're doing a cottage economy, you've got one guy on the cottage, making his own food, and producing the commerce. That's 1 against the happiness/health limit.

If you're doing a specialist economy, you've got one guy working a farm, so that you can have another guy (a specialist). That's 2 against the happiness/health limit.

So it seems that the higher level you go, the more inclined you should be to cottages and less inclined to speciailists.

In any event, to me it's not so much WHEN to use specialists, but WHERE. I'll typically use specialists in a few "specialized" cities (including a city where I have Globe Theater, so I don't have to worry about unhappiness), and cottages and similar improvements everywhere else (farms as necessary to grow the pop).

It's not quite that simple. If you have food resources, then you have one guy working the resource to allow ~2 specialists. That's 3 against the h/h limit. 2 specialists compared to 3 guys working 3 cottages. (2:3 is better than 1:2).

And, if you're running Representation then you get essentially double the benefit. (changing it to 4:3 or 2:2).

On top of that, before you have a GP farm, if you do it right, then you can generate Great Scientists in parallel, in more than one city. Thus, every city running specialists would generate a Great Scientist, which is worth, oh, 1000-2400 cottage turns (10 cottages for 100-240 turns). Pulling that number out of the air but it's a good benchmark. (As each city generates a GS you could turn off the scientists and change the farms to cottages, if you wanted.)

So, it seems to me, that the higher level you go, the more inclined you should be to specialists and the less to cottages. Certainly in the early game.

Wodan

The higher the level you go, the less inclined you should be to make pre-game assessments about what the specifics of your economy will be. ;)

(At least outside Culture games that is...)

It's not quite that simple. If you have food resources, then you have one guy working the resource to allow ~2 specialists. That's 3 against the h/h limit. 2 specialists compared to 3 guys working 3 cottages. (2:3 is better than 1:2).

And, if you're running Representation then you get essentially double the benefit. (changing it to 4:3 or 2:2).

On top of that, before you have a GP farm, if you do it right, then you can generate Great Scientists in parallel, in more than one city. Thus, every city running specialists would generate a Great Scientist, which is worth, oh, 1000-2400 cottage turns (10 cottages for 100-240 turns). Pulling that number out of the air but it's a good benchmark. (As each city generates a GS you could turn off the scientists and change the farms to cottages, if you wanted.)

So, it seems to me, that the higher level you go, the more inclined you should be to specialists and the less to cottages. Certainly in the early game.

Wodan

Good points. Certainly if you have food resources, you want to farm/plantation them. What you do with that excess food depends on your situation.

If you have mines, and need production, you'll want to work the mines. If you have room for growth under the happiness limit, you'll probably want to grow. If you've grown to your limit and have no hammer tiles to work, you might have to employ a specialist to prevent further growth (unless you want to work cottaged plains tiles).

Looking at it in the abstract, farming a regular tile as opposed to cottaging it gives you one food (two after biology). Is that one food better than a cottage? It gives you half a specialist, who (with representation) is worth 6 beakers/gold. Let's say the cottage is worth an average of three commerce (financial civs with cottages by the river get that right away, so their average would be much higher). Working two cottages gives you that six beakers/gold with two people counting toward the happiness/health limit. Working two farms to hire the specialist gives you that six beakers/gold with three people.

The GP points from the specialist, before a GP farm is set up, is a good point. However, keep in mind that every specialist you farm counts against you in making each new specialist more expensive. But, getting them earlier is obviously better. I think what you're doing is weighing the value of getting the six beakers/gold with just two people against the value of the earlier GP points. I do think as the difficulty level goes up, the value of getting the six beakers/gold with just two people goes up.

Also, the value of the cottages obviously goes up if you didn't get pyramids, or if you're financial.

Point of farming grassland useally in speeding up city regrow form whip/draft.

There is also one form of Economy. Very Powerful after Communism and Electricity. Watermills and Workshops.

Well, there is also the Trade Route Economy, although technically you can run an SE or a CE at the same time.

The higher the level you go, the less inclined you should be to make pre-game assessments about what the specifics of your economy will be. ;)

(At least outside Culture games that is...)

I think I failed to ask the question i was looking to get answered. What u are saying here is what i meant. I'm trying to adjust to the land i get, and the resources that comes with it. What am I looking for in order to use specialists instead of cottages? When I see lots of food resources and grassland, i see a great city to cottage spam, while others see a great specialist city.

I know leader traits are important as well, but you make the decition to use SE or CE when u see the land/resources, right?

It really depends. If you have food resoures in a lot of cities (or potential city sites), you can do either. So which is better? Who cares, pick one and have fun.

If you don't have food resources in a lot of cities, then you'll need grassland/floodplain and fresh water to do specialists or grassland/floodplain to do cottages. If you have neither, then you're either looking at mixture of either production cities or else euphemistically "opportunities for future growth" (not a heck of a lot you can do with a big swatch of hills, before windmills anyway).

Wodan

I would say that food specials favor specialists, but grasslands favor cottages. If you've got Fish+Corn, that's more of a food surplus than a cottage city needs. But it's enough to run 4 or even 5 specialists (with lighthouse and irrigation) in a rather small city.

Conversely, the proverbial football field is not that great for specialists. Late in the game, when happy- and health-caps are really high, and especially post-Biology, sure it can do a lot then. But in the early to mid-game, it's tough to run specialists off just grasslands. But you sure can run cottages (probably plant a farm or two to accelerate your growth to the happy caps).

I would say that the leader traits (especially Philosophical vs. Financial) make the biggest difference in how you structure your overall economy. The food distribution influences city-by-city decisions, and may lead you into hybrid territory. I'm happy to run two scientists off a Fish in the early game even if I'm principally CE. Or to cottage up a bunch of riverside grasslands, even if I've got the civics/traits for a SE, if the city has only a modest food surplus.

peace,
lilnev

I use the "economy" that fits each city depending a lot on the terrain/layout of the cities and the player I end up getting (I always play random leader so I never know what I'm going to get.) Financial leaders will tend to have more cottages than otherwise; philosophical leaders will have more specialists; etc.

My production city(ies) will never get cottages and are always working mines, watermills or workshops, in addition to the farms supporting the population... so they don't follow either path. The only specialists these cities see working are the engineer or priest (for the production).

Only time I will use a SE is if I have a leader with Philosophical trait. When I do use SE I focus more on lightbulbing techs and if I were to use a non-philo leader then it would take seemingly forever to get the necessary GS.

There is no need to always use SE on emperor on up. CE and HE work well too. If you choose SE the more food you have the better. I would never run SE with a financial leader....the only exception being Elizabeth (i think it's her, lol).

I would stick to a purer form of SE when you choose that style till you lightbulb the minimum required techs, such as Philo/Edu/Paper. Then switching to a HE could be great.

If I am in a HE I aim for 5 cities before CS is finished (emperor). 2 production/2cottage/1 GPF. I think you should try to implement your GP farm sooner :) . If I am using SE, then all my cities but one production monster (mined) will be 90% farms, therefore they can all be used for production (whip), or more research via scientist.

Lots of great advice, big thanks to all.

30+, you are right, i need to start working on a GP farm much earlier. I like to rush a neighboor with axes or chariots, and their capital should be a great choice for a GP farm.

I had a go with SE playing as Isabella, and it actually went quite well considering it was my first attempt. If i had played with CE i would have done better, but that is due to lack of experience. It was hard to adjust to a completly different playstyle. Was a lot of fun to try something new though, and I expect my next try to be better. Will definitly try a philo leader next, as that seems to be much more beneficial, i guess Gandhi makes great practice :)

What does SE and GP stand for?

What does SE and GP stand for?

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/reference/acronyms.php

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/reference/acronyms.php

So what does SE stand for? It doesnt say..

Strange. Well, anyway, SE is "Specialist Economy" (generally accepted to mean that most of your research is coming from scientists) and to contrast, CE is "Cottage Economy".

Wodan