Our province of Istar contains the following cities:

Fox' Nest
Eyr
Khatovar
Chie
Byblos

Note that this will be updated as soon as we define our provinces geographically.

Hmmm... As you posted this I was just trying to get this rolling. On another thread at the same time. We need a list of proposals (Preferably drawn out in a map)

Originally posted by eyrei
Our province of Istar contains the following cities:

Fox' Nest
Eyr
PDX
Khatovar
Shailenogha

Note that this will be updated as soon as we define our provinces geographically.

Should be Shailonegha ;)

Looks like my city name is going to win the prize for "Most often misspelled". :lol:

Originally posted by Shaitan


Should be Shailonegha ;)

Looks like my city name is going to win the prize for "Most often misspelled". :lol:

Argh. I hope it is not misspelled in the game.... I'll edit....

Originally posted by eyrei


Argh. I hope it is not misspelled in the game.... I'll edit....
It's correct in the game, so no worries there. The real city it's morphed from (Dhalonegha) is also very frequently misspelled. To figure out how it's pronounced, remove the H's. Same with Shailonegha so it's pronounced:

Sy (like in Cybernetics)
la (as in do-re-mi-fa-lo-la-ti-do)
ne (like in "net")
guh (like in shogun)



Does that make me officially "Way too into this"? :lol:

Originally posted by Shaitan




Does that make me officially "Way too into this"? :lol:

I think that has already been established. For myself as well.:lol:

And this is in..........Georgia?:confused:

Originally posted by Shaitan


Should be Shailonegha ;)

Looks like my city name is going to win the prize for "Most often misspelled". :lol:

While I think mine will never be spelled wrong!

I thought about going with Peedee-ex...but no!:cry:

How about province/state-name abbreviations (analogous to: New York, NY or LA, Ca)? Something like PDX, Ist and Civanatoria, GC?

Washington GC! Hahahaha! Hilarious!
*ROFL*

Oops.

Sorry.

Originally posted by Citizen_K
And this is in..........Georgia?:confused:
Dhalonegha is a gold rush town in the mountains north of Atlanta. I've always liked the name. Another good one around here is Dacula (makes me think of Transylvania :))

If you guys want I could post a website for you. And a forum too.
I did this all ready for the province Cormyr.

I have edited the first post to reflect the changes to the cities in Istar. Would someone please tell me what the name of the ex-Egyptian city on the shore of lake Phoenatica is? I haven't been able to download the save.....

If you're talking about the small Egyptian town on the SE tip of the lake, that is Byblos.

Thanks!

no......It should be Asyut west of Lake Phoenatica.
Also, I believe the ex-Aztec city Malinalco falls into the territory of Istar as well.

Eyrei, sorry about the settler that was produced in Eyr last turn chat. As we were shy a President, the begining of the game was kind of unusual. We got into turn #2 about 2.5 hours into it and by that time I had completely forgotten about your request. (I was sitting in for the Culture Department) My main responsibility was getting a Library into Thebes and with that done, I sat back for a bit. Don't worry, Eyr will rebound. It always has. Things are looking up.

What cities are in what provinces?

Originally posted by Cyc
Eyrei, sorry about the settler that was produced in Eyr last turn chat. As we were shy a President, the begining of the game was kind of unusual. We got into turn #2 about 2.5 hours into it and by that time I had completely forgotten about your request. (I was sitting in for the Culture Department) My main responsibility was getting a Library into Thebes and with that done, I sat back for a bit. Don't worry, Eyr will rebound. It always has. Things are looking up.

Apology accepted. I am curious why Eyr is now building a pikemen now, as we are not at war with anyone, and pikemen are nowhere in the build queues I posted....Did Eyr finish the aqueduct and marketplace it was supposed to build? Not blaming anyone, just curious why this happened....

General Falocon02 has asked that Eyr make pikemen and that Fox Nest and PDX recruit knights.

He has not specified how many we need of each...

RE: Istar

Byblos is not in Istar but Asyut is. Also I think Malinalco and Lutetia are as well.

Where are you posting build queues eyrei?

Originally posted by donsig
General Falocon02 has asked that Eyr make pikemen and that Fox Nest and PDX recruit knights.

He has not specified how many we need of each...

RE: Istar

Byblos is not in Istar but Asyut is. Also I think Malinalco and Lutetia are as well.

Where are you posting build queues eyrei?

I had been posting build queues in the presidents thread to make sure he saw them, but will begin posting them in the instructions thread.

Are we not at war with anyone? If so, the military department has no control over build queues without the consent of the governor....

The president has not been at the last 2 turn chats and I guess no one looked in his thread.

The general asked for production listed above he didn't order it. I was at turn chat as domestic deputy and agreed to that production for Eyr and Fox Nest. I think we got consensus from those at turn chat for PDX to make knights once its cathedral was done.

Will you be back at the turn chats soon eyrei? If not then the question of me being able to change your instructions during turn chat will certainly arise and should be addressed now.

Originally posted by donsig
The president has not been at the last 2 turn chats and I guess no one looked in his thread.

The general asked for production listed above he didn't order it. I was at turn chat as domestic deputy and agreed to that production for Eyr and Fox Nest. I think we got consensus from those at turn chat for PDX to make knights once its cathedral was done.

Will you be back at the turn chats soon eyrei? If not then the question of me being able to change your instructions during turn chat will certainly arise and should be addressed now.

I should be back for the next chat. I agree Fox's Nest should build military units, however, Eyr needs a marketplace and an aqueduct to continue growing. This is our least corrupt city other than the capital, it should not be producing units unless we are at war, or it is done with the improvements that will help our economy.

As far as changing my decisions during a chat, I do not think that is supported by the constitution. Making decisions that I had not already posted is what the deputy is meant to do in that circumstance. The build queue for Eyr, of marketplace and aqueduct has been posted for almost a week, and has not been carried out. Those instructions can only be overturned by a cabinet vote. They should not be ignored because I do not attend a turn chat.

Your build queues were not ignored eyrei. They were not noticed because you put them into the president's thread rather than the turn instructions thread. In order to ignore something we have to see it first.

Your view of deputies' role is very limiting. It forces the deputy to follow instructions that may become obsolete due to changes in the game that happen during turn chat. I thought there was a discussion about this somewhere. I will look for it and post a link.

Originally posted by donsig
Your build queues were not ignored eyrei. They were not noticed because you put them into the president's thread rather than the turn instructions thread. In order to ignore something we have to see it first.

Your view of deputies' role is very limiting. It forces the deputy to follow instructions that may become obsolete due to changes in the game that happen during turn chat. I thought there was a discussion about this somewhere. I will look for it and post a link.

The instructions were posted in the president's thread before the turn instructions thread existed. Please don't tell me that no one reads the presidential thread......:( They had been up there for quite some time, as well.

The role of deputy is supposed to be subordinate to the leader. It is supposed to be limited.

What changes are you talking about? That we are at peace, and therefore needed more pikemen, ASAP? That does not make sense to me.

I don't read the presidential thread. I used to look there for saved games and screenshots but they are now in other threads. No one at turn chat pointed out your build queues there eyrei.

I know we are at peace but our border cities still need garrisons. It seemed better to us to build pikemen and knights in productive cities and send them to the borders instead of slowly building them in the outlying cities. I think the General is saving his budget for upgrades rather than for rushing defensive units in border cities.

I though deputies were stand-ins for leaders with full departmental powers when the leaders were absent. Still looking for the debate about this. I think it is in the domestic department thread. Perhaps we need a new discussion thread for this.

Originally posted by donsig

I though deputies were stand-ins for leaders with full departmental powers when the leaders were absent. Still looking for the debate about this. I think it is in the domestic department thread. Perhaps we need a new discussion thread for this.

The constitution is referring to a leader being missing from the forum so as to not be present to make decisions. I do not think the civ2 game even used turn chats. Allowing the deputies, and chat reps for that matter, full leader powers at a turn chat basically means that there are three leaders for each department, and whoever makes the chat turn is the leader that night. The chat rep, whether the deputy or the chat rep, may make decisions that have not been addressed, but may not change those that have already been made.

Constitutional debate in domestic department thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21614&perpage=20&pagenumber=2)

Check out Shaitan's take on this posted in the thread above. He says something to the effect of the deputy being the leader for all intents and purposes. That is also my take on the issue and I have acted accordingly in the last two turn chats. Circumstances change even after instructions are posted and deputies must be allowed to make changes as they see fit if the leader is not there to lead. Being chained to inflexible orders will cause us to lose many opportunities that arise during turn chat.

The domestic leader cannot unilateraly veto a governor's build queues. If the domestic leader does not like what the governor's want to build then he will have to persuade them to change their minds, get their choices overturned by a council vote or persuade the military leader to overturn the choice if it is 'during a time of invasion."


This was your comment on the domestic leader's power over governors' build queues. There was no military emergency or a council vote. Since governor's instructions can be easily posted, there is no real need for them to be at the turn chat, thus, while you may have been standing in as domestic leader, there was not need or reason for you to stand in as governor of Istar.

Regardless, Shaitan is working on a constitutional amendment that addresses this issue.

Originally posted by donsig
Constitutional debate in domestic department thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21614&perpage=20&pagenumber=2)

Check out Shaitan's take on this posted in the thread above. He says something to the effect of the deputy being the leader for all intents and purposes. That is also my take on the issue and I have acted accordingly in the last two turn chats. Circumstances change even after instructions are posted and deputies must be allowed to make changes as they see fit if the leader is not there to lead. Being chained to inflexible orders will cause us to lose many opportunities that arise during turn chat.
Here's the quote Donsig is referring to:
Deputies take over for their leaders when the leaders are absent. They are the leader for all intents and purposes except for the Chain of Command. Deputies can vote, call polls, etc if their leader is absent. "Absent" on the forum is a question as nobody except Eyrei is here 24 hours a day (). I'd say if a leader hasn't posted in 36 hours then it would be safe for a deputy to act.
And I feel that this level of power is required for the position. I also feel very strongly that the departmental goals, plans and directions need to come from the Leader. I never thought this would need to be pointed out because it's such a fundamental part of my everyday life I don't even think about it. Look at any Chain of Command in the real world. When Bush was on vacation, Cheney continued to work on the plans laid out by Bush. My boss is #3 in the chain here. When the COO is on vacation she continues to work towards the goals he set up. She handles new issues as they arrise but unless there's a critical reason she doesn't change his projects.

Since governor's instructions can be easily posted, there is no real need for them to be at the turn chat, thus, while you may have been standing in as domestic leader, there was not need or reason for you to stand in as governor of Istar.

I'm sure you could take any part of the constitution and 'interpret it' so as to defend your current position eyrei. However, since the constitution clearly states that the domestic leader is the governor of the first province it stands to reason that if someone assumes the powers of domestic leader he or she also assumes the corresponding gubernatorial powers.

My understanding is that the deputy does assume the leader's powers in the absence of the leader. I have acted and will continue to act with this understanding. If my actions are impeachable then call for my impeachment.

As for governors being present and voiced at turn chat they should certainly be both so as to be able to implement changes in their build queues as circumstances change. Keeping them out of the turn chat only silences them when someone at the turn chat decides to usurp the governor's authority. The one voice rule per dept. at the chat already silences the opposition. Silencing the governors as well puts way too much power in the hands of those at the chat.

Originally posted by eyrei


This was your comment on the domestic leader's power over governors' build queues. There was no military emergency or a council vote. Since governor's instructions can be easily posted, there is no real need for them to be at the turn chat, thus, while you may have been standing in as domestic leader, there was not need or reason for you to stand in as governor of Istar.

Regardless, Shaitan is working on a constitutional amendment that addresses this issue.
Isn't governorship of the capital province part of the role of Domestic Leader under the constitution? This could be an excessively literal-minded interpretation, but does this not mean that the governorial duties would come under the jurisdiction of the deputy in the absence of the Leader?

I really need to type faster.... :rolleyes:

I'm sure you could take any part of the constitution and 'interpret it' so as to defend your current position eyrei.

The same could be said of you.

My understanding is that the deputy does assume the leader's powers in the absence of the leader. I have acted and will continue to act with this understanding. If my actions are impeachable then call for my impeachment.

Your actions are definately not impeachable. Should the constitution change to reflect the idea that the deputy only decides things that the leader did not already decide, I expect you will stop overriding decisions.

As for governors being present and voiced at turn chat they should certainly be both so as to be able to implement changes in their build queues as circumstances change. Keeping them out of the turn chat only silences them when someone at the turn chat decides to usurp the governor's authority. The one voice rule per dept. at the chat already silences the opposition. Silencing the governors as well puts way too much power in the hands of those at the chat.

I said nothing about silencing the governors. However, a governor's instruction leave little room for interpretation, and it is therefore less of a necessity for them to attend turn chats.

Originally posted by donsig
As for governors being present and voiced at turn chat they should certainly be both so as to be able to implement changes in their build queues as circumstances change. Keeping them out of the turn chat only silences them when someone at the turn chat decides to usurp the governor's authority. The one voice rule per dept. at the chat already silences the opposition. Silencing the governors as well puts way too much power in the hands of those at the chat.
I didn't realize that governors were voiced. There's really no need for a governor to be voiced. Changes to build queues can be easily relayed through one of the At-Large Councilmembers (they are the voice of the people, after all) or a communique directly to the Pres (or designated player).

Originally posted by Shaitan

I didn't realize that governors were voiced. There's really no need for a governor to be voiced. Changes to build queues can be easily relayed through one of the At-Large Councilmembers (they are the voice of the people, after all) or a communique directly to the Pres (or designated player).
I disagree, Governors are a distinct part of the government of the empire and should be free to argue their own case if they disagree with a councilmember's desire to overturn their instructions. Having them do so via the medium of an at-large councilmember or the president is at best pointless (i.e. if they are just repeating the governor verbatim) and at worst will result in a kind of "chinese whisper" effect if they rephrase the arguments.

I believe Deputies do not become the Leader during the turn chat, but merely act in their stead. They represent that Leader, and do what they think their leader would do. If a Leader has posted a build queue, then obviously not following that queue would be in conflict with that leader. This should only occur in extreme situations, ie. if war breaks out and a defenseless border town has been queued to build a temple or something, then it should be switched to a pikeman. The Deputy has full power in spot votes, but even then should try vote as they believe the leader would vote. The Deputy does not become Leader for the turn chat, especially seeing as some leaders never make it to turn chats, and this would effectively make the Deputy the Leader, nullifying the elections.

Originally posted by Shaitan:

And I feel that this level of power is required for the position. I also feel very strongly that the departmental goals, plans and directions need to come from the Leader. I never thought this would need to be pointed out because it's such a fundamental part of my everyday life I don't even think about it. Look at any Chain of Command in the real world. When Bush was on vacation, Cheney continued to work on the plans laid out by Bush. My boss is #3 in the chain here. When the COO is on vacation she continues to work towards the goals he set up. She handles new issues as they arrise but unless there's a critical reason she doesn't change his projects.

I would point out that Bush and Cheney were elected from the same team and are pretty much in tune on running things anyway. Our system has given us a domestic leader and a deputy domestic leader that have very different ideas about how to go about doing things. When I am at turn chat and eyrei isn't I will most likely do things he would not. I certainly set the lux rate different than he would have. I also handled relations with the military department different that he would have. The question now is did I make these decisions in total disregard of the departmental leader's instructions and/or leadership goals.

The sci/tax/lux rate had to be readjusted because the Great Library became obsolete. I had no idea what eyrei wanted in this regard so I did what I thought best.

As for build queues in Istar someone did point out that eyrei wanted an aqueduct in Eyr but our military leader requested pikemen be built there. I felt it was within my authority to re-evaluate Eyr's production in light of this request and thought it best to go with pikemen for the time being. The general also asked that PDX be turned over to knight production once its cathedral was comlpete. With no word from the governor those at the turn chat reached a consensus to build knights in PDX. We changed other builds as well and did spot votes on them. It should be noted that Eklektikos posted his build queues during the turn chat and we saw to it that these were put into place during the turn chat.

I also placed the last two cities that were built. I'm sure eyrei would have done different. Once again, I was operating in a vacuum as far as eyrei's intentions were regarding city placement.

Finally, we should not be using constitutional interpretation to limit leaders, deputies or governors from exercising their proper authority. Not all of us can play and win on diety level so we are bound to make mistakes along the way. We should be allowed to make our mistakes and learn from them rather than have our authority constitutionally interpreted away.

Donsig,

I have no problem with your decisions regarding the luxury/tax/science rate or with placing the new cities, as I had not posted on those. I had expected to make the Sunday chat, but something came up. That is definately within the power of the deputy. The problem I have is that one of my build queues was ignored during peacetime because of a request from the military department. Had there been a good reason for this, I would expect that the queue been changed. This is peactime, and therefore the military department has no power to affect any build queue without permission from the governor. Had I not posted posted the build queue for Eyr, you would have been within your rights to change this of your own accord. However, the post was made almost a week in advance. I do not understand why this is so confusing, and the way you seem to see deputies' powers is a formula for chaos.

Will someone please explain to me the reasoning for switching Eyr to pikemen? I have read the chat log, and can not figure it out.

Originally posted by eyrei
Will someone please explain to me the reasoning for switching Eyr to pikemen? I have read the chat log, and can not figure it out.

--> [20:18] <Falcon02> and please keep Eyr on Pikes

The General wanted to improve our national defenses and chose to build pikes in Eyr.

--> [21:33] <donsig> Eyr must build pikes - queue up a few of 'em Chieftess

Your Dept. Min. also wanted more pikes.

I was unaware of where your build queues were placed, Eyrei. I was part of a spot vote to keep pikemen building in Eyr. This was because our military production had dropped off dramatically. Even though we were not at war, there was considerable "friendly" troop movement in our territory. Our friends continued to build military units & we were getting left behind.

Better placement of your build queue would have helped me & I would have vocally supported your orders. I didn't look in the President's thread for the governors build queue. In fact, the President has not played for 2 turns in a row so of the people who attended the chats, I do not think it is anyone's responsibility to read it, especially posts buried down a week previously. Our focus, especially in times where players are playing the turns for the first time, is on the turn instructions thread.

I suggest you post your queues in your province's thread, like all other governors. Maybe all governors should edit & maintain their first post to reflect the current build order. Also, if desired, put your queues in the turn instructions thread.

Originally posted by Chieftess


--> [20:18] <Falcon02> and please keep Eyr on Pikes

The General wanted to improve our national defenses and chose to build pikes in Eyr.

Thanks, Chieftess. That's a start. Now, would someone please explain why this took precadence over a governor's build queue? As far as I know, we are not running a military dictatorship here, so I am guessing that far too much influence is being given to those at the chat turns. The military leader has no influence over build queues during a time of peace, except that of a normal citizen to post suggestions.

Also, for future referance, anyone who ends up playing a turn unexpectedly, should probably take a couple minute to check the president's thread before starting. In fact, this thread should be standard reading for all government officials.

I would also point out that at the beginning of the May 12 turn chat Eyr was already set to build pikemen we did not change it eyrei. Near the end of the May 10 turn chat we had set many cities to building pikemen in the hopes that the new governors would put their own build queues in place. This did not happen. With no new orders from any governors we at the turn chat did what we felt best and conducted many spot votes on what to build. As for Eyr I felt that as acting governor it was within my sphere to re-evaluate that city's build in light of our military leader's request. I know we are at peace but the General's orders made sense to me as Eyr pikemen could be sent to the borders allowing those low production cities to concentrate on building other things. Being at peace does not mean we should stop building military units.

I have laid out what I saw as the justification for my authority and the rationale for making the choice I made. What more must I do?

Originally posted by chiefpaco

Better placement of your build queue would have helped me & I would have vocally supported your orders. I didn't look in the President's thread for the governors build queue. In fact, the President has not played for 2 turns in a row so of the people who attended the chats, I do not think it is anyone's responsibility to read it, especially posts buried down a week previously. Our focus, especially in times where players are playing the turns for the first time, is on the turn instructions thread.

I suggest you post your queues in your province's thread, like all other governors. Maybe all governors should edit & maintain their first post to reflect the current build order. Also, if desired, put your queues in the turn instructions thread.

The reason I put it in the president's thread was because it was missed by the president the turn prior because it was in the provinces thread. This was before the turn instructions thread existed, and I will post them there for now on. Hopefully this new thread will clear up this problem.

Originally posted by donsig
I would also point out that at the beginning of the May 12 turn chat Eyr was already set to build pikemen we did not change it eyrei. Near the end of the May 10 turn chat we had set many cities to building pikemen in the hopes that the new governors would put their own build queues in place. This did not happen. With no new orders from any governors we at the turn chat did what we felt best and conducted many spot votes on what to build.

The reason Eyr was set to build pikemen at that point was because it's build queue was ignored during that turn as well. It had mistakingly built a settler after I had posted in at least two spots that it was not to build one.

I expect that my instructions as governor of Istar be carried out from now on, as they will be posted in the turn instructions threads. A spot council vote could overturn these queues, but keep in mind that chat reps do not have the authority to vote in these.

I understand the military leader's concern that our forces are too small and may invite invasion. However, another city will need to be found to build these units. Eyr has wasted about 40 turns now, during which it could have completed the improvements in it's queue. Had my instructions been followed in the first place, it would now be set to produce units.

originally posted by eyrei:
Also, for future referance, anyone who ends up playing a turn unexpectedly, should probably take a couple minute to check the president's thread before starting. In fact, this thread should be standard reading for all government officials.

No eyrei, you should post all your instructions in the turn chat instruction thread whether you think you will be at the turn chat or not. It is not up to the rest of us to search around for your instructions when you unexpectedly cannot be at the turn chat.

originally posted by eyrei:
Thanks, Chieftess. That's a start. Now, would someone please explain why this took precadence over a governor's build queue? As far as I know, we are not running a military dictatorship here, so I am guessing that far too much influence is being given to those at the chat turns. The military leader has no influence over build queues during a time of peace, except that of a normal citizen to post suggestions.

How many times must I explain this eyrei? I did not see your post in the president's thread. Even if I had I would have re-evaluated Eyr's production in light of Falcon's request. Someone, I think it was Cyc, pointed out that you wanted an aqueduct in Eyr. The General made a request and I - as acting governor - made a decision based on his request and what I thought was best. As for the military leader's influence during peace I dare say we should not be ignoring him. Has not every country in the world attacked us once? We would be fools to think they will not do so again.

Finally, either I had the authority to make this decision or I didn't. If I didn't then have me removed from office and be done with it. If I did then live with my choice and move on.

originally posted by eyrei:
I expect that my instructions as governor of Istar be carried out from now on, as they will be posted in the turn instructions threads. A spot council vote could overturn these queues, but keep in mind that chat reps do not have the authority to vote in these.

As long as I am deputy domestic leader I will not hesitate to change the domestic leader's orders during turn chat if I feel circumstances require it.

Time to get the final word. Let the people speak. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=283183#post283183)

As a concerned citizen of Fox Nest, (with a somewhat biased interest in culture), I would like to submit a request to our governor that we build a University in our beloved Capital. Our understanding of these new forms of structured Education has made many of the books of our Great Library irrelevant. I would like to see Fox Nest continue to lead the world in learning and culture, but I fear that we are missing a golden opportunity by not building a University as soon as possible.

I understand that Fox Nest is currently scheduled to build knights, at 5 turns each. For only 2 more turns, we could quickly build a University, which would pay immediate dividends. In addition to the Cultural benefits, it would also increase our research. At 40% science (what we had been running at), Fox Nest produced 21 per turn, meaning a University would boost it by 7 more per turn! Very good return for the investment.

Wouldn't it boost it by 10?

No, and I am trying to remember why:confused:

At 40% science, it produces 21 beakers, 14 base (40% of normal commerce of 35), plus 7 due to the library. The University adds 50% of the base amount, not modified by the library but in addition to it, so it would be 7 more. Thanks.

Governor. As temporary Mayor of Khatovar, I have posted some suggestions to the public about the future of our city, here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?threadid=20458) .

I am looking foward to suggestions from the citizens of Khatovar, but as our marketplace will be completed soon, I believe the granary should be our next project.

Thank you for your time.

Current Istar build queues are posted in the turn chat instructions thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22952)

chat representatives
could you please port the order for your chat representatives in this thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23795)?