I know that this is well known issue, but Jags stll suck. While Celtic Warriors are not nerfed, Jags are. Why? I know that no Iron is counterargument. But I would simply solve Jags problem as it was solved with Celtic Warriors. Chopper or Iron would be needed. And I would give Jags strength of 6 or 30% withrowal bonus, when attacking from Forest.

I'm quite convinced Woodsman II Jags are great in some situations after they pretty much won me an Immortal game.

Jags don't really suck at all. Or if they do "suck" it's because they're used like Gallic warriors, in which they're indirect. But they're fast, because you can build them without hooking onto resources. They're for rushing and protecting stacks.

Jags don't really suck at all. Or if they do "suck" it's because they're used like Gallic warriors, in which they're indirect. But they're fast, because you can build them without hooking onto resources. They're for rushing and protecting stacks.

right!
I only played once with the aztecs, and it was vanilla but I had nothing to say about the jags.
The resourceless building is really powerful.
To be honest, I never build swordsmen, if I'm not rome or aztec , so I don't miss the 6 strength too much :mischief:.

I just cannot believe that everyone likes Jags. Double movement is cool, but the same do horse archers. Jags cannot even hold the city against h.archers. I remind you this Combat1 promo is bound with a trait, not with a unit. I guess, how Jags would look, without this promo.
Siege of a city without walls, without culture with archers non-promoted against Jags would give about 50% odds. That's very satysfinig. The only good thing about them is Woodsman1, which remain after upgrading. However, I would gladly exchange Woodsman2 for Guerilla1, cause AI's like chopping very much.

Personally I found them useful on Tropical world to conquer barbarian cities. And scouting. No more good word about them.

If there Aztecs could build Jags and Swords, but they can't ...

edit: Cabert: What do you build then?

Maybe in multi there would be greater use of them ...

I like the Jags the way they are. They have some good things and some bad things. In multiplayer I would think that they would be especially good, since you can rush to IW and start cranking them out without having to worry about iron.

But, honestly, I don't favor balance. I like the idea of some civs being better than others. So my views and wishes are very different from yours.

edit: Cabert: What do you build then?

axes
and jags can get CR just as good as axes, but require no resources

Whoa, Jaguar Warriors got nerfed? I'm pretty sure that Woodsman promotion is a far-cry better than +25% jungle defense, both for getting the bonus from woods and for access for Woodsman II.

I wouldn't mind however, if the Jaguar Warrior were just a Woodsman version of the Gallic Warrior. That is, 6 strength, 35 hammers, requires copper or iron. But making it require resources, from what I hear, would completely change how the unit works.

Maybe in multi there would be greater use of them ...

No there even less use there- humans arnt stupid enough to avoid hooking up copper etc.

I used to think that Jags really sucked. Now I just think they sorta suck :lol:

They're good for rushing because you don't need to worry about spitting out another settler to claim iron if it doesn't pop up in your empire.

I had a pretty solid aztec game recently with them.

They are underwhelming to be sure.

I think that they could easily still be 6 strength and not overpowered...

@Giaur

I agree with you mostly :) . The only time I believe Jags come in handy are on a smaller map and on low to medium diffuclty levels (chieftan - Monarch, simply because AI defends itself much better higher levels...and unit cost much more on emperor and higher making an unsuccessful rush cripple you). Not to mention Axeman cost the same amount of hammers and have a 50% > strength than Jags. The war chariot also doing 50% vs melee. The immortal cost 25 hammers comapred to jags 35 (normal). MMMmmmmm, Jags just don't seem great.

But as everyone else has said, including yourself, MP is a different story ^^. On duel and tiny maps they are devestating in 1:1. Even if you can't take over his capital (say capital because if they went for a quick second city the game is already over) you only have to camp and fortify 1-2 Jags at the very most to prevent him from improving his terrain, contain him, then use whatever b/o + tech combination you want to steam roll them whenever you want. Not to mention you can go theocracy route and begin pumping out level 3 unit experience in a rediculously fast time.

So for me, Jags and Monte suck (well, at the very least are not one of the strongest leader/UU/) on standard size maps and larger (SP or MP).

That's my 2 cents!

Take unit cost into consideration people!

Jaguars are cheaper than any other swordsmen in terms of hammers. They are actually the 5th cheapest military unit in the game (only scouts, warriors, archers and chariots are cheaper).

Sure horse archers beat jaguars, but horse archers cost a lot more and require a resource and have a -10% penalty attacking cities.

No there even less use there- humans arnt stupid enough to avoid hooking up copper etc.

Humans arn't stupid enough to let the other players hook up bronze.
In a typical 1v1 duel the first thing you do is send your starting warrior to the enemy to stop them hooking up resources.

I think that Jags should cost 5 shields more, and have 6 strength while retaining its current abilities, that seems fair enough.

How about keeping Jags as they are, but making them a resourceless axeman replacement instead? I don't think any unique unit replaces an axe, although quite a few replace swords.

resourceless axe = instant rush with no counter (I guess chariots to some extent but you can toss ins pears to solve that problem). I think that would make Monty rushes at the beginning of the game too powerful. Imagine a high level Monty coming after you around 2000-1000 BC with loads of axemen replacement jaguars. Not pretty. I think the beakers needed to hit iron working slow down the UU so that it's not overly powerful, but the balance is definitely on the weaker side right now.

Yeah, I think there's a definite reason they don't replace axes. Personally I'd like to see something like +20% when attacking from a jungle or forest tile. It would be unique, and flavorful, and potentially strong though it doesn't seem overpowered (merely getting him that 6th point of strength back). And it would create entirely new tactical situations and strategies.

peace,
lilnev

Jags are basically Warriors on steroids, allow warmongering w/o metals. If you get Iron within reach, they're a liability since you can't build regular Swordsmen, but situationally? Veery, veery powerful.

Didn't get Copper? Beeline to Iron Working, poof warmachine. Nvm Iron.

Didn't get Copper? Beeline to Iron Working, poof warmachine. Nvm Iron.

But the starting locations are cooked up so that, if you don't have copper, you'll almost always have iron. Except on the "weird" map types.

No there even less use there- humans arnt stupid enough to avoid hooking up copper etc.
Surely you jest! In Multiplayer these things are the ultimate for choking an opponent. A woodsman 2 Jag holds against axes they are impossible to get rid of.

But the starting locations are cooked up so that, if you don't have copper, you'll almost always have iron. Except on the "weird" map types.

I play Fractal mostly. So I guess that's "weird" :D

The swordsman is a unit that is very useful as a mainline city attacker right into the early-to-mid medieval period - well after any jag-rushing benefit - and then the Aztec player is at a big disadvantage without it.

Take unit cost into consideration people!

Jaguars are cheaper than any other swordsmen in terms of hammers. They are actually the 5th cheapest military unit in the game (only scouts, warriors, archers and chariots are cheaper).

It's only a small advantage, even less than the 1/8 pure hammer advantage, because of the interaction with pop-rushing. 35 hammers means you usually have to really micromanage (and lessen) first turn production to be able to whip away two people at once - whereas 40 is just enough that you aren't wasting any potential hammers. The overflow can still always go for a cheaper axeman or spearman. Particularly in Warlords, where you have the fantastic Sacrificial Altar to make poprushing a cornerstone of your military strategy. Ironically, the point where you get Altars is also pretty much exactly the point where Monty would massively dominate by churning out full-strength Aggressive swordsmen.


As far as improvements, adding a potential Woodsman III promo with a bonus to forest attack and withdrawal (like guerrilla III) would go a long way to making the jag interesting and useful as an irregular.

Ironically, the point where you get Altars is also pretty much exactly the point where Monty would massively dominate by churning out full-strength Aggressive swordsmen.

That's why they did NOT give them full-strength aggressive swordsmen.

Still, by the time courthouses come along, Jags and swordsman are already past their use. You should be using catapults or crossbows by then.

That's why they did NOT give them full-strength aggressive swordsmen.
Hmmmm dunno about that - too powerful to give a UU!
The jag came first, after all, and the swordsmen is just a normal unit. Not like we're talking something really obscene like Sacrificial Altar + Aggressive + Praetorian (I modded that in once just to try - my GOD)

Still, by the time courthouses come along, Jags and swordsman are already past their use. You should be using catapults or crossbows by then.
A CoL beeline (via the religious route for Monty of course) leaves you still a long way from construction and even longer from machinery.
In that period after the axe rush is plausible and before cats, built-up cities are near impossible to assail without the extra punch of swordsmen (and throwing a large amount of sacrificial swordsmen at them), and Monty would make serious assault in this period a plausible option.

Besides, you still need a good city raiding unit to smash down the units that the cats have weakened, and swords are ideal units for this role - generally much better than axes. They're useful right up to macemen and aren't even completely obsolete after that. They're also excellent defenders against anything that's not an axe, and even good defending against axes with a bit of terrain or promotion.

As it is, I almost never bother researching Iron Working as Monty because it would slow me down on CoL/construction. And it's damn sad because the jag just looks so ridiculously cool.

Here's an idea, since a defending axeman can stop a Jaguar Rush dead in it's tracks, instead of giving the Jaguar, increased strenght, why not give it 1-2 first strikes oppotunies, they'd basically be similar to Samurais but can be built in the ancient age and have a higher survival chance, and you'd only ahve to sacrifice on average 2 Jaguars to take down one defending axemen.

It might be overpowered, we won't know until it's tested though

As aforementioned, Jag's resourcelessness is a double-edged sword.

I'd like to see as they are, but at normal swordsman cost, and get +1 strength with iron (possibly +2 strength (7) with copper AND iron? It's still a lower strength than the praet... plus increases their window of opportunity)

Double movement speed?

It would be really funny ...

edit: early explorers.