View Full Version : New York Times: A United Kingdom? Maybe


Bast
Mar 07, 2007, 06:15 AM
Britain and Ireland are so thoroughly divided in their histories that there is no single word to refer to the inhabitants of both islands. Historians teach that they are mostly descended from different peoples: the Irish from the Celts and the English from the Anglo-Saxons who invaded from northern Europe and drove the Celts to the country’s western and northern fringes.

But geneticists who have tested DNA throughout the British Isles are edging toward a different conclusion. Many are struck by the overall genetic similarities, leading some to claim that both Britain and Ireland have been inhabited for thousands of years by a single people that have remained in the majority, with only minor additions from later invaders like Celts, Romans, Angles, Saxons, Vikings and Normans. The implication that the Irish, English, Scottish and Welsh have a great deal in common with each other, at least from the geneticist’s point of view, seems likely to please no one. The genetic evidence is still under development, however, and because only very rough dates can be derived from it, it is hard to weave evidence from DNA, archaeology, history and linguistics into a coherent picture of British and Irish origins.

That has not stopped the attempt. Stephen Oppenheimer, a medical geneticist at the University of Oxford, says the historians’ account is wrong in almost every detail. In Dr. Oppenheimer’s reconstruction of events, the principal ancestors of today’s British and Irish populations arrived from Spain about 16,000 years ago, speaking a language related to Basque.

The British Isles were unpopulated then, wiped clean of people by glaciers that had smothered northern Europe for about 4,000 years and forced the former inhabitants into southern refuges in Spain and Italy. When the climate warmed and the glaciers retreated, people moved back north. The new arrivals in the British Isles would have found an empty territory, which they could have reached just by walking along the Atlantic coastline, since the English Channel and the Irish Sea were still land.

This new population, who lived by hunting and gathering, survived a sharp cold spell called the Younger Dryas that lasted from 12,300 to 11,000 years ago. Much later, some 6,000 years ago, agriculture finally reached the British Isles from its birthplace in the Near East. Agriculture may have been introduced by people speaking Celtic, in Dr. Oppenheimer’s view. Although the Celtic immigrants may have been few in number, they spread their farming techniques and their language throughout Ireland and the western coast of Britain. Later immigrants arrived from northern Europe had more influence on the eastern and southern coasts. They too spread their language, a branch of German, but these invaders’ numbers were also small compared with the local population.

In all, about three-quarters of the ancestors of today’s British and Irish populations arrived between 15,000 and 7,500 years ago, when rising sea levels split Britain and Ireland from the Continent and from each other, Dr. Oppenheimer calculates in a new book, “The Origins of the British: A Genetic Detective Story” (Carroll & Graf, 2006).

Ireland received the fewest of the subsequent invaders; their DNA makes up about 12 percent of the Irish gene pool, Dr. Oppenheimer estimates. DNA from invaders accounts for 20 percent of the gene pool in Wales, 30 percent in Scotland, and about a third in eastern and southern England.

But no single group of invaders is responsible for more than 5 percent of the current gene pool, Dr. Oppenheimer says on the basis of genetic data. He cites figures from the archaeologist Heinrich Haerke that the Anglo-Saxon invasions that began in the fourth century A.D. added about 250,000 people to a British population of one to two million, an estimate that Dr. Oppenheimer notes is larger than his but considerably less than the substantial replacement of the English population assumed by others. The Norman invasion of 1066 brought not many more than 10,000 people, according to Dr. Haerke.

Other geneticists say Dr. Oppenheimer’s reconstruction is plausible, though some disagree with details. Several said genetic methods did not give precise enough dates to be confident of certain aspects, like when the first settlers arrived.

“Once you have an established population, it is quite difficult to change it very radically,” said Daniel G. Bradley, a geneticist at Trinity College, Dublin. But he said he was “quite agnostic” as to whether the original population became established in Britain and Ireland immediately after the glaciers retreated 16,000 years ago, as Dr. Oppenheimer argues, or more recently, in the Neolithic Age, which began 10,000 years ago.

Bryan Sykes, another Oxford geneticist, said he agreed with Dr. Oppenheimer that the ancestors of “by far the majority of people” were present in the British Isles before the Roman conquest of A.D. 43. “The Saxons, Vikings and Normans had a minor effect, and much less than some of the medieval historical texts would indicate,” he said. His conclusions, based on his own genetic survey and information in his genealogical testing service, Oxford Ancestors, are reported in his new book, “Saxons, Vikings and Celts: The Genetic Roots of Britain and Ireland.”

A different view of the Anglo-Saxon invasions has been developed by Mark Thomas of University College, London. Dr. Thomas and colleagues say the invaders wiped out substantial numbers of the indigenous population, replacing 50 percent to 100 percent of those in central England. Their argument is that the Y chromosomes of English men seem identical to those of people in Norway and the Friesland area of the Netherlands, two regions from which the invaders may have originated.

Dr. Oppenheimer disputes this, saying the similarity between the English and northern European Y chromosomes arises because both regions were repopulated by people from the Iberian refuges after the glaciers retreated.

Dr. Sykes said he agreed with Dr. Oppenheimer on this point, but another geneticist, Christopher Tyler-Smith of the Sanger Centre near Cambridge, said the jury was still out. “There is not yet a consensus view among geneticists, so the genetic story may well change,” he said. As to the identity of the first postglacial settlers, Dr. Tyler-Smith said he “would favor a Neolithic origin for the Y chromosomes, although the evidence is still quite sketchy.”

Dr. Oppenheimer’s population history of the British Isles relies not only on genetic data but also on the dating of language changes by methods developed by geneticists. These are not generally accepted by historical linguists, who long ago developed but largely rejected a dating method known as glottochronology. Geneticists have recently plunged into the field, arguing that linguists have been too pessimistic and that advanced statistical methods developed for dating genes can also be applied to languages.

Dr. Oppenheimer has relied on work by Peter Forster, a geneticist at Anglia Ruskin University, to argue that Celtic is a much more ancient language than supposed, and that Celtic speakers could have brought knowledge of agriculture to Ireland, where it first appeared. He also adopts Dr. Forster’s argument, based on a statistical analysis of vocabulary, that English is an ancient, fourth branch of the Germanic language tree, and was spoken in England before the Roman invasion.

English is usually assumed to have developed in England, from the language of the Angles and Saxons, about 1,500 years ago. But Dr. Forster argues that the Angles and the Saxons were both really Viking peoples who began raiding Britain ahead of the accepted historical schedule. They did not bring their language to England because English, in his view, was already spoken there, probably introduced before the arrival of the Romans by tribes such as the Belgae, whom Caesar describes as being present on both sides of the Channel.

The Belgae perhaps introduced some socially transforming technique, such as iron-working, which led to their language replacing that of the indigenous inhabitants, but Dr. Forster said he had not yet identified any specific innovation from the archaeological record.

Germanic is usually assumed to have split into three branches: West Germanic, which includes German and Dutch; East Germanic, the language of the Goths and Vandals; and North Germanic, consisting of the Scandinavian languages. Dr. Forster’s analysis shows English is not an offshoot of West Germanic, as usually assumed, but is a branch independent of the other three, which also implies a greater antiquity. Germanic split into its four branches some 2,000 to 6,000 years ago, Dr. Forster estimates.

Historians have usually assumed that Celtic was spoken throughout Britain when the Romans arrived. But Dr. Oppenheimer argues that the absence of Celtic place names in England — words for places are particularly durable — makes this unlikely.

If the people of the British Isles hold most of their genetic heritage in common, with their differences consisting only of a regional flavoring of Celtic in the west and of northern European in the east, might that perception draw them together? Geneticists see little prospect that their findings will reduce cultural and political differences. The Celtic cultural myth “is very entrenched and has a lot to do with the Scottish, Welsh and Irish identity; their main identifying feature is that they are not English,” said Dr. Sykes, an Englishman who has traced his Y chromosome and surname to an ancestor who lived in the village of Flockton in Yorkshire in 1286.

Dr. Oppenheimer said genes “have no bearing on cultural history.” There is no significant genetic difference between the people of Northern Ireland, yet they have been fighting with each other for 400 years, he said.

As for his thesis that the British and Irish are genetically much alike, “It would be wonderful if it improved relations, but I somehow think it won’t.”

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/06/science/06brits.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1

My thoughts: whilst I think it's safer to look to linguistic history rather than genetic history, I still think this gives an interesting perspective on the colonisation of the British Isles. It will certainly force us to rethink the history of Britain before the Anglo-Saxon invasion.

I'm also not entirely convinced about English being a fourth branch of the Germanic languages. What do you guys think?

Bad Player
Mar 07, 2007, 06:27 AM
What happened to the language of the Goths and Vandals?

I have reservations about the genetic similarity thing because I am not an expert in the field and you hear arguments about how e.g. a banana or somesuch is almost genetically identical to a human (we've all heard that style of comment).

It also seems a lot of speculation - interesting nonetheless especially for those of us with Anglo-Saxon descent.

Bast
Mar 07, 2007, 06:36 AM
What happened to the language of the Goths and Vandals?

Extinct....

Winner
Mar 07, 2007, 06:46 AM
Europe is so mixed that it makes little sense to bother with this. Most of Europeans came from the Middle East tens of thousands of years ago, the genetic differences that developed among them are minimal.

What matters is the culture, and that was brought by the invaders, Indo-Europeans on the European level, Angles, Saxons, Vikings and Normans in the British sense.

cthom
Mar 07, 2007, 07:40 AM
Historians have usually assumed that Celtic was spoken throughout Britain when the Romans arrived. But Dr. Oppenheimer argues that the absence of Celtic place names in England — words for places are particularly durable — makes this unlikely.

there is an absence of gaelic place names in the western isles due to the influence of vikings. oppenheimers argument falls down there.

newfangle
Mar 07, 2007, 07:43 AM
We all speak proto-Indo-European anyways.

Bill3000
Mar 07, 2007, 10:24 AM
Europe is so mixed that it makes little sense to bother with this. Most of Europeans came from the Middle East tens of thousands of years ago, the genetic differences that developed among them are minimal.

Genetic differences between humans are minimal, period. :p But that doesn't mean that genetic differences are insignificant - they are useful to track how populations had migrated across the lands, and how people are descended from certain ancestors.

Regardless, populations have nothing to do with ethnicity. This only helps prove - it's much more so a matter of identity. The native Brythons in England assimilated into the ethnicity that developed as a result of the invasions - and that's all the difference that is needed to show that there is a difference between the English and the Irish. Population movements, while extremely important in history, has nothing to do with ethnicity. I could simply point to the Serbians/Croatians/Bosniaks, which all share a common heritage, being South Slavs, but yet are so far apart simply because of the traditional religions of their respective ethnicities.

What happened to the language of the Goths and Vandals?
Little is known about the vandal language, but it probably went extinct when the Vandal Kingdom was conquered by the Byzantines. Oddly enough, a Gothic language managed to survive until the 18th century; Crimean Gothic.

Bad Player
Mar 07, 2007, 01:57 PM
Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths) says that Swedes believed that they were descended from Goths. Is this just folk lore or is it real? Are vikings descendants of Goths? :confused:

Bill3000
Mar 07, 2007, 02:23 PM
Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths) says that Swedes believed that they were descended from Goths. Is this just folk lore or is it real? Are vikings descendants of Goths? :confused:

The Swedes were a different tribe in modern-day Sweden (one of many) than the Goths; groups that are more related to them were the Gutar and Geats in Gotland and Götaland respectively.

It's also important to note that the all of germanic languages originated from Scandanivia in the first place. :p See Nordic Bronze Age.

They started settling outside of Scandanivia in the 2nd century, settling in Scythia/Dacia/Pannonia. The germanic tribes started diverging by the time they were migrating. Ultimately to call the scandanivians descendents of Goths is akin to saying that they are descendents of Germans, (not Germanic tribes) Dutch, English or the like. Scandanivia was the nucleus of the Proto-Germanic culture, so it's rather meaningless to call them "descendents" of the goths, as the Goths had become a seperate group after the tribes started migrating.

Guangxi
Mar 07, 2007, 03:53 PM
I'm also not entirely convinced about English being a fourth branch of the Germanic languages. What do you guys think?

English: Hound.
German: Hund.

English: dance with me.
German: tanz mit mir.

English: thanks
German: danke.

English: world.
German: welt.

English: Sea.
German: See.

English: Submarine. [under sea]
German: Unterseeboot [undersea boat]

and so on. the more common words appear to be more german, while the others have latin and french [jolly=joli {this is my guess from seeing it in french class, could easily be borrowed from english and not vice-versa}, submarine= sub marinus, etc.]

but the genetic thing is probably right. neolithic age people had dark hair, celts had fair and red hair, mostly. i am celtic by this measure [fair hair].
most in ireland have dark hair.
anyway, genetics shouldnt really come into it when defining nationality, language, music, customs, slang, architecture and others are more important.

Mirc
Mar 07, 2007, 03:55 PM
Hier ist die Ausgang
Here is the exit*

* is the only different word :)

English has about 50% of its vocabulary of Latin origin, but the simplest words are clearly Germanic, so it does clearly fit in the Germanic group (House - Haus - read exactly the same; Cat - Katze, month - monat; monday - montag; friday - freitag).

skadistic
Mar 07, 2007, 04:03 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong.

The English were Anglos who displaced the britians to Britiny in France. Those Anglos came from the main land and brought the Anglish language with them. Where as the Gailic Celts had been in the islands for far longer with out invasion en mass from the Anglos until much later on?

Guangxi
Mar 07, 2007, 05:11 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong.

The English were Anglos who displaced the britians to Britiny in France. Those Anglos came from the main land and brought the Anglish language with them. Where as the Gailic Celts had been in the islands for far longer with out invasion en mass from the Anglos until much later on?
angles and saxons. angles=danish [or at least northern german], saxons=german. saxons to the south, angles to the north. gaels came to hibernia via either spain, southern britain or gaul, and eventually ousted the earlier celtic arrivals [the picts] to caledonia. i think the welsh are the britons, or at least a variant, Wales is Breatain Beag [little britain] in irish, anyway.
gaelic tribe of the scotti starts pwning the picts in caledonia around the dark ages, which is why scots gaelic exists. angles, saxons and jutes started arriving after the end of roman rule.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/anglosaxons/images/invasion/map.gif
http://www.ladlass.com/intel/archives/images/pictland.gif\
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~jkmacmul/gaelicmap.gif
http://members.aol.com/skyewrites/images/celtmap7.gif
http://www.hightowertrail.com/gaul.jpg

Bill3000
Mar 07, 2007, 06:38 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong.

The English were Anglos who displaced the britians to Britiny in France. Those Anglos came from the main land and brought the Anglish language with them. Where as the Gailic Celts had been in the islands for far longer with out invasion en mass from the Anglos until much later on?
Angles, Saxons, and Jutes were the tribes that migrated to Britain. It wasn't the Gallic Celts - it was the Brythonic Celts.

It wasn't a displacement per se, moreso as an assimilation of the migrating tribes to Britain with the native Brythons, which would form a single Anglo-Saxon culture. This is opposed to the Brythons which was not under Angle/Saxon/Jutish influence, which would become Wales and Cornwall. As a fun fact, the term which includes all three of these tribes, as well as the Frisians, originated as a single federation of tribes known as the Ingvaeones.

The Jutes assimilated with the Danes, though their name is left is Jutland in Denmark, Saxons left on the mainland led Saxony, and the Angles had pretty much abandoned their original home in Schleswig for Britain. The Frisians still exist in northeast Netherlands, though with a lesser distribution than what it used to be; Frisian is the second closest language to English today, after Scots. Old Frisian has much in common with Old English.

StarWorms
Mar 07, 2007, 06:42 PM
http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/9016/langur7.jpg

Nature 426 435-9 2003

Princeps
Mar 07, 2007, 07:20 PM
English has about 50% of its vocabulary of Latin origin.

English has almost 80-90% of its vocabalury from latin.

Knight-Dragon
Mar 07, 2007, 10:24 PM
Interesting thread...

Moved to History.

shortguy
Mar 07, 2007, 11:07 PM
Hier ist die Ausgang
Here is the exit*

* is the only different word :)

English has about 50% of its vocabulary of Latin origin, but the simplest words are clearly Germanic, so it does clearly fit in the Germanic group (House - Haus - read exactly the same; Cat - Katze, month - monat; monday - montag; friday - freitag).

No one's disputing that English is a Germanic language; that's pretty obvious. The contentious hypothesis from the article is that English, rather than being descended from the language brought by the Anglo-Saxons, was brought over to Britain by some Germanic tribe or another (he proposes the Belgae) before the Romans invaded.

Verbose
Mar 07, 2007, 11:19 PM
It's also important to note that the all of germanic languages originated from Scandanivia in the first place. :p See Nordic Bronze Age.

They started settling outside of Scandanivia in the 2nd century, settling in Scythia/Dacia/Pannonia. The germanic tribes started diverging by the time they were migrating. Ultimately to call the scandanivians descendents of Goths is akin to saying that they are descendents of Germans, (not Germanic tribes) Dutch, English or the like. Scandanivia was the nucleus of the Proto-Germanic culture, so it's rather meaningless to call them "descendents" of the goths, as the Goths had become a seperate group after the tribes started migrating.
Except fot the observation that Scandinavians aren't descended from the Goths, they appear much too late in history to be ancestral to anything much, I would treat this with considerable scepticism. Sorry.:)

It mostly looks like a modern way of restating an intepretation of Jordanes' Chronicle of the Goths (Gaetica) from around 600 AD. The kind made in the late 19th c., when for example the "Burgundians" were claimed to have migrated from the island of "Bornhom". (An interpretation based on a depopulation of the island noticed in its archeology, at the same time as the Burgundians turned up in Europe coupled to the likeness in name. Supposedly they, as a man, headed for the boats to invade Europe.)

The Scandinavian Bronze Age if pretty unique, but since it wasn't spread outside Scandinavia it's hardly parental to anything much. Some of the wilder modern interpretations are trying to claim a considerable influence on Bronze Age Scandinavia directly from the Mycenian civilisation. They claim that there are similarities in symbolism between them not found anywhere else.

All interpretations about these things tend to have to be speculative in any case.

The Swedish claim to be the ancestors of all Germans, conquerers of Rome etc, stems from the 15th to 17th c., when the national ideology of "Gothicism" was cobbled together to give Sweden a grand and illustrous past on par with the continental powers. At its extreme Sweden was claimed to be the "officina gentium", the workshop of peoples, and everything in biblical history supposedly occurred in Sweden, never mind that the original language of man wasn't Hebrew, but Swedish.

Verbose
Mar 07, 2007, 11:23 PM
No one's disputing that English is a Germanic language; that's pretty obvious. The contentious hypothesis from the article is that English, rather than being descended from the language brought by the Anglo-Saxons, was brought over to Britain by some Germanic tribe or another (he proposes the Belgae) before the Romans invaded.
But the Belagae weren't Germanic speakers as far as most linguists seem to agree.

And besides, there seems to be good reason to consider the Roman use of "Germanic" as a geographical term (living east of the Rhine), and not a linguistic/cultural one. A lot of the Germanic tribes from Caesar dealt with would seem to have spoken Celtic languages.

Taliesin
Mar 07, 2007, 11:24 PM
English has almost 80-90% of its vocabalury from latin.
Nope; it's roughly 25% French, 25% Latin, and 25% Germanic. Fun fact: of the 100 words most commonly used today, four don't come from Old English, and only one (#76, 'number') derives from Latin. The other three are from Norse.

For fun, you can listen to West Frisian radio here: http://www.omropfryslan.nl/ Click on Radio up at the top, then select "Harkje Live". It's mostly incomprehensible, but you hear the odd word, and you also get the strange feeling that you should understand what's being said. And then you occasionally get an entire phrase that is recognisable, like 'That is correct'-- that one shocked me.

At its extreme Sweden was claimed to be the "officina gentium", the workshop of peoples, and everything in biblical history supposedly occurred in Sweden, never mind that the original language of man wasn't Hebrew, but Swedish.
That would make some sense of the otherwise surprising claim I've heard that Swedish linguists of that time made: namely that Adam and Eve spoke Hebrew, the serpent French-- and God Swedish!

Verbose
Mar 07, 2007, 11:34 PM
That would make some sense of the otherwise surprising claim I've heard that Swedish linguists of that time made: namely that Adam and Eve spoke Hebrew, the serpent French-- and God Swedish!
Yeah, that guy.
The problem is historians can't make up their mind if it was entirely serious (it's possible) or a spoof on the others.:)

Taliesin
Mar 07, 2007, 11:38 PM
Taliesin's Historical Principle: all else being equal, the most fun possibility is true.

It serves me well so far, and I'm sure European History Quarterly will come around soon. :D

Another fun fact: all our really rude words were adopted from Dutch sailors in the sixteenth century.

Plotinus
Mar 08, 2007, 12:49 AM
No-one could deny that English is a Germanic language, but I had to laugh at this example:


English: Submarine. [under sea]
German: Unterseeboot [undersea boat]

What you have there is two words with similar meanings, one Germanic, the other Latin. How is that evidence for English being Germanic? You might as well say:

English: See you soon.
French: Au revoir.

And conclude that English is a Romance language...

By the way, the French word joli means "pretty", not "jolly". Also, as I understand it, dark hair is common among Celts - dark hair and pale eyes, strikingly.

shortguy
Mar 08, 2007, 01:29 AM
No-one could deny that English is a Germanic language, but I had to laugh at this example:



What you have there is two words with similar meanings, one Germanic, the other Latin. How is that evidence for English being Germanic? You might as well say:

English: See you soon.
French: Au revoir.

And conclude that English is a Romance language...

By the way, the French word joli means "pretty", not "jolly". Also, as I understand it, dark hair is common among Celts - dark hair and pale eyes, strikingly.

I think you missed his point, which was that the common words/phrases/examples were Germanic, but the modern/specialized ones were from Latin.

But the Belagae weren't Germanic speakers as far as most linguists seem to agree.

And besides, there seems to be good reason to consider the Roman use of "Germanic" as a geographical term (living east of the Rhine), and not a linguistic/cultural one. A lot of the Germanic tribes from Caesar dealt with would seem to have spoken Celtic languages.

Hey, you'll get no argument from me; I was just explaining. I don't think it makes much sense at all.

privatehudson
Mar 08, 2007, 01:30 AM
Where I live has a rich history of different peoples with the towns and villages having a mixture of Anglo-Saxon and Viking names in the main. The vikings certainly didn't have a minor impact here, probably half of the peninsula was once in their control under a semi-independent parliment to boot.

Its might be worth considering however that the NE corner of the peninsula (Wallasey) is named after the Anglo-Saxon word for foreigner/stranger. It would seem strange to refer to a population who spoke the same language and came from the same background as foreign. As far as I can tell the peninsula contains at least 5 places with either Old Irish or Old Welsh names, so the notion that no celtic placenames survive in England may not be entirely accurate.

Taliesin
Mar 08, 2007, 02:31 AM
It is true, however, that English absorbed little from the native Celtic language, probably no more than thirty words. In comparison, 200-odd Norse additions make the Vikings look much more influential.

Bast
Mar 08, 2007, 04:52 AM
http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/9016/langur7.jpg

Nature 426 435-9 2003

Thanks. A beautiful diagram of the Indo-European family.

Mirc
Mar 08, 2007, 05:11 AM
It's very nice, I agree. :) But what are the red numbers? Years?

StarWorms
Mar 08, 2007, 05:23 AM
I think so. I haven't actually read the article (couldn't find it on Nature) but it was an image used in a recent lecture. It shows how many languages are related. I think the red numbers are years before present. The longer the line, the more change has occurred so Italian looks like a very unchanged language. I think the little numbers are bootstrap numbers, which is from what I understand, a degree of certainty that that is where the branch should be. Some of these might seem a bit low but languages exchange words with each other even if they're not closely related. English and French have exchanged words, for example.

Mirc
Mar 08, 2007, 05:34 AM
Actually, if that's the case with the line length, it's not accurate. Italian experienced major changes over the years, and Sardinian is shown as being more changed. When it's actually one of the 2 (uncontested) least changed Romance languages.

Maybe a line with many short pieces just represents the splitting of a language into smaller ones?

dutchfire
Mar 08, 2007, 05:59 AM
For fun, you can listen to West Frisian radio here: http://www.omropfryslan.nl/ Click on Radio up at the top, then select "Harkje Live". It's mostly incomprehensible, but you hear the odd word, and you also get the strange feeling that you should understand what's being said. And then you occasionally get an entire phrase that is recognisable, like 'That is correct'-- that one shocked me.

I once heard that Frisian is the language that resembles old-english most. One guy even made a Frisian-Japanese dictionary so people from Japan could use it to study old English :rolleyes:

Bad Player
Mar 08, 2007, 06:18 AM
Some of the wilder modern interpretations are trying to claim a considerable influence on Bronze Age Scandinavia directly from the Mycenian civilisation. They claim that there are similarities in symbolism between them not found anywhere else.

All interpretations about these things tend to have to be speculative in any case.


An interesting example of common symbolism is that Europeans had dragons and so did the Chinese. Was it contact - I don't think so but I don't know... It may have just been chance.

Mirc
Mar 08, 2007, 07:13 AM
For fun, you can listen to West Frisian radio here: http://www.omropfryslan.nl/ Click on Radio up at the top, then select "Harkje Live". It's mostly incomprehensible, but you hear the odd word, and you also get the strange feeling that you should understand what's being said. And then you occasionally get an entire phrase that is recognisable, like 'That is correct'-- that one shocked me.

Hey, I understood every single word I heard at that radio so far!!

It's true that the fact that what is broadcasted currently is an American rock song might have helped me somewhat... :mischief:

StarWorms
Mar 08, 2007, 07:51 AM
I once heard that Frisian is the language that resembles old-english most. One guy even made a Frisian-Japanese dictionary so people from Japan could use it to study old English :rolleyes:

Sranan, at least on the tree I posted, is more related. Whatever that is anyway... :S

Mirc
Mar 08, 2007, 07:53 AM
Might be extinct...? :hmm:

Edit:
Sranan Tongo is a creole language spoken by most people in Suriname. It is the mother tongue of about 100,000 people in Suriname who are descendants of slaves brought from Africa during the colonial period. It is also the lingua franca between ethnic groups. Many Sranan Tongo speakers also live in the Netherlands.Speakers: Sranan Tongo is a creole language spoken by most people in Suriname. It is the mother tongue of about 100,000 people in Suriname who are descendants of slaves brought from Africa during the colonial period. It is also the lingua franca between ethnic groups. Many Sranan Tongo speakers also live in the Netherlands.

MCdread
Mar 08, 2007, 08:32 AM
Also, as I understand it, dark hair is common among Celts - dark hair and pale eyes, strikingly.

And here I heard that it was common for Celts to have fair hair and dark eyes. It probably just goes to show that such attempts at reconstructing what was an ancient Celt like (or any other elusive people) are very unreliable. Especially more so, because it's very debated who the Celts were: an ethnicity, a high caste with the same genetic/ethnic origin, a wide culture adopted by different people that didn't share the same origin, a mixture of all of the above, etc.?

More on topic, I always had a strong disliking of History as told from the perspective of people A invaded people B, therefor people B were all killed and nowadays we all descend from A. It seems to me that the current populations of most of Europe are genetically related to those that already were there thousands of years ago, and subsequent invasions and language changes only had limited impact in the genetic pool. It wasn't until modern times, that travel and communications improvement and industrial economic development allowed for mass scale immigration I think.

Btw, weren't there earlier genetic studies that very much related the present population of the British Isles with that of Northern Spain and Portugal, which is also traditionally considered as pre-roman Celts?
Nowadays both regions may seem very different, but Iberia is historically split in two greater geographic and cultural areas: the wet, mountainous and atlantic north, and the hotter, plainer and mediterranean south, and until the modern nation states, Iberia looks like a mini-Europe, with the North strongly linked with Northern Europe, and the South linked to the mediterranean.

Plotinus
Mar 08, 2007, 09:07 AM
An interesting example of common symbolism is that Europeans had dragons and so did the Chinese. Was it contact - I don't think so but I don't know... It may have just been chance.

Problem is, European dragons and Chinese dragons aren't really very similar, either in meaning or in general appearance - at least in my opinion! Chinese dragons are basically long versions of Chinese lions, which aren't a whole lot like real lions, either.

privatehudson
Mar 08, 2007, 11:22 AM
It is true, however, that English absorbed little from the native Celtic language, probably no more than thirty words. In comparison, 200-odd Norse additions make the Vikings look much more influential.

I wouldn't find that suprising to be honest if the traditional view is followed. The Celts may have been here the longest but their control of England ended long ago. An invading group often impose their control over a region by renaming the places it controls and supplanting the language.

I'm not saying Celtic was more important however, merely that celtic names do appear in England, and populations of Celts did survive there for some time. That said though the Norse who made up the Viking part of the Peninsula came there after being exiled from Ireland, so its entirely possible that the Irish placenames date from that period.

MCdread
Mar 08, 2007, 11:25 AM
Problem is, European dragons and Chinese dragons aren't really very similar, either in meaning or in general appearance - at least in my opinion! Chinese dragons are basically long versions of Chinese lions, which aren't a whole lot like real lions, either.

And the position they occupy in each region's folklore is also different: the european dragon is generally a malevolent creature, while in the Far East, at least to my knowledge that isn't so. Also, the european dragon origins lie perhaps in Persia or the Near East, and I believe there are also dragon-like creatures in other parts of Asia, including India. So, I'd say there are these weird creatures in the mythology and folklore of many cultures, which we conveniently group in the general category "Dragon", but maybe they don't have much in common...

Serutan
Mar 08, 2007, 12:30 PM
I once heard that Frisian is the language that resembles old-english most.

The book The Story of English co-authored by Robert McNiel, states that many scholars believe that if
Harold had defeated the Normans at Hastings that Engish would have wound up being close to Dutch, and implying that possibly it would have been as a close as, say, Danish and Norwegian.

CosmoKing
Mar 08, 2007, 12:59 PM
I read a book called Scotlands Story by H.M Marshall, and the first chapter was titled the Story of Prince Gallus to show how modern day Scotland was first occupied. In brief, it went like this:

Hundreds of years ago, there lived Prince Gallus of Greece who was rebbelious and wages many wars....eventually he was exiled by his father, but he took a fair number of ships, friends and people with him. After some searching they settled in Egypt. There, Gallus fell in love with the Pharophs beautiful daughter, Scotia, and eventually they married. For a few years they lived happily in Egypt. However, eventually they fell out with the Pharoh and they all left. They then settled in the Iberian Peninsula(!!!) and by this time, Gallus called his tribe Scots, after his wife Scotia. Initially they lived in peace with the inhabitants, but eventually there was an all out war, which the Scots won. But wars and flaling-outs continued witht he local populances, and then Gallus heard stories of a "Green Island" in the north. They then left Iberia and sailed north, until they came to the "Green Island"-which was modern day Ireland. Gallus named this island Scotland, after his tribes name, the Scots. Eventually, some of these Scots migrated to modern day Scotland and eventually called their land there the "Kingdom of Alba". However, this land was sometimes reffered to Ireland.(Interesting how modern Scotland was called Ireland and modern Ireland Scotland)When these people arrived in modern day Scotland, there existed people there known as the Picts, based largely around Inverness, and Britons that lived in modern day south Scotland and in many parts of England. This was well before the Roman invasions. In later chapters the book discusses how the Romans drove these people beyond the rivers Forth and Clyde, but ultimately, failed to conquer them.

The chapter ends with stating that some people htink this is all a myth.
However, it also mentions that until fairly recently, Ireland was reffered as Scotland by many, and that some people reffered to modern Scotland as Ireland.(there was another fact to support this, but I forgot it now)

Just worth thinking about. It certainly supports the view that some of the British Isles ancestors came from only the Celts and Anglo-Saxons,and it disputes the view that the ancestors of the Irish, Welsh and Scottish people were all of the same race and origin: the Celts. It would also explain why some Scottish peopel today have dark features, because if this story is correct, their ancestors came from Greece, Egypt and the Iberian Peninsula, where dark hair is very common.

privatehudson
Mar 08, 2007, 02:41 PM
What I find interesting is the different perceptions of what a normal Celtic person should look like. Where I come from "Celts" are usually associated with redheads due to association of the term with natives of Scotland and Ireland.

Plotinus
Mar 09, 2007, 02:00 AM
[CosmoKing] Sounds about on the same level as the claim that London was founded by refugees from Troy... "Scot" does indeed mean "Irish", and the reason why Scotland is called that is because it was settled, in the early Middle Ages, by people from Ireland, who displaced the native Picts. That's undisputed, but I don't see it as evidence for any murky claims about the origins of the Irish themselves.

I'm sure that all the Celts I know have dark hair. That's certainly what I think of when I hear the name! But these days it surely makes no difference: everyone in the British Isles is so mixed up. My sister and I both have fair hair but our parents have dark hair. Maybe we're changelings.

sydhe
Apr 07, 2007, 12:26 AM
This doesn't really have much to do with the topic, but it's cool. An animated Bayeux Tapestry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDaB-NNyM8o