as promised, a new game as the Byzantines in the MA scenario
It's on DG

here are the rules
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53368/rat19a.jpg

my first turnset of 10

1.843AD
set research to horse riding as we want catpharacts, powerful horse riders

2.846AD
scout a little but want to avoid initial contact, we need more military first

3. 849AD
zzz

4.852AD
we get our first archer

5.855AD
zzz

6.858AD
horses are connected now

7.861AD
we have another archer, but I hold back
in the south almost run into the Abbasids

8.864AD
zzz

9.867AD
zzz

10.870AD
Bulgars run a sword south and we have our first war
bomb th sword with out dromon

horse riding in 8, we need iron from somewhere for the catapharacts later

situation now:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53368/rat19b.jpg

save (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53368/rat19_870AD.SAV)

Roster:

ThERat - started the game
pindicator - up
Greebley
empiremaker
vacancy
Bugs?

Checking in. The wars started quick.

May I enquire about the temple and curragh? I'd sign up but I've been having trouble with the conquest scenarios ever since I reinstalled my C3C gear on this computer ... have fun, push out workers early on, you have the cities running already :)

May I enquire about the temple and curragh?oh, they are placeholders really. the curragh should be swapped as we have one there already for some recon work.

I tried to get out workers, but it only works in cities that do not produce shields. The other cities need to grow first before bein able to contribute some workers/settlers.

More important, we need iron and the Bulgars seem to have it with the sword unless it's a free initial unit.

checking in...

Just send someone West, you'll run into Iron and you can see if they have it. You could have peeked into their resources when you first contacted them, too... :mischief:

Ooh, Byzantines on Middle Age scenario. The cities don't look like they were very well placed (silly people at Firaxis :p)

anyways, just dropping by. Good luck all and hope you win this time! :)

Is there something stopping you from going for more than one optional line? Not that I think we will want to, I am just curious on the scenario. I don't think I have tried this one. In a real game I would think you could trade for more than one line.

Lurk mode on.

I don't think we can cross the line so easily even via trade. We can't get the nice Viking longboat for example...but we get that ninja like unit like no other Civ

pindicator pm'ed and indicated he would play today

And play he did!

I know you guys love a good challenge, so we're in for one already.

Inherited Turn -
Leave be what TheRat left before me.

1, 873AD)
zzz

2, 876AD)
zzz

3, 879AD)
Them Bulgars are smart, advancing away from the coast so our dromons can't touch them.

4, 882AD)
Settler finishes.
We win our first battle outside Andrianople, kill a Bulgar Sword [1-0]

IBT - Bulgar sword kills our spear [1-1].

5, 885AD)
Archer kills sword, promotes [2-1]

IBT - Bulgars send a second stack towards us.

6, 888AD)
Kill an archer witih our sword [3-1]

7, 891AD)
Find tar in the east. Also tar in west beside Bulgar capital.

8, 894AD)
Found Varna

IBT - Spear kills first two Bulgars, loses to third [5-2]
And I miss the spear that can pillage our horses next IBT. Great, nobody close enough to stop him.

9, 897AD)
Kill archer [6-2] We need walls and more units.

IBT - Horseback riding in. Horses pillaged. More Bulgars a-comin'

http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/6784/rat19900adbulgararmycn5.jpg

10, 900AD)
Roman Secrets are 40 turns at 90%, so I put the slider to 10%. Feel free to change any builds.

Instead of settlers, I've been making archers out of Constantinople. But we probably should try to sneak a few in. Anybody want to try a dotmap with all our land?

the save (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/45336/rat19_900AD.SAV)

Roster:

ThERat
pindicator
Greebley - up
empiremaker
There is still a vacancy for all the lurkers
Bugs, do you participate here?

Bulgars are sending all their initial extra units I guess...but once we have dealt with them, we should be making some headways. We need to find iron somewhere

There is some Iron a bit to the North of Larissa... :p

lurker's comment: There is some Iron a bit to the North of Larissa... we can't see any iron at the moment, so please do NOT post any spoiler info..thanks

Sorry, thought that was pretty well known... :blush:

Preturn: Building a settler or two to connect up the lone city in the south with our Empire.
Moved a few units around and switch a few minor builds.

Forests are nicer this game.. 2 Food each.

IBT:

903 AD: Moved a Spear to look for Iron and find it immediately. Given that it was the only place to search, I don't think much was given away. I would have found it this turn no matter what.

Ok this isn't so good. I attack a Sword with 2 Archer and a Sword and do ZERO damage to it. It is now Elite and fully healthy.
I do kill a 1 hp Spear.

IBT: Lose our 2 Spear in Adrianople killing 2 Archer. The sword now has 3 hp. Town guarded by a lone Archer.

906 AD: We leave our capitol unguarded to move a spear into Arianople. Lone Archer kills an Archer. The sword and 1 hp Archer will be able to retreat. We will build 2 Spear next turn though.

IBT: Sword kills our 3 hp Spear (5th unit killed) but goes to 1 hp. Only other unit is an 1 hp Archer which retreats.

909 AD: Ok I attack the 1 hp sword with an Archer and an Elite Archer (3 and 4 hp). Neither can kill it. That is now 7 units killed by that Sword.

IBT: Sword retreats.

912 AD:

915 AD: Spend 64 gold to rush an Archer in Adrianople.

918 AD: Use Archer to kill 1 HP Spear.

IBT: We spotted a red boat move into and out of our view. No contact.

921 AD: This isn't funny - Full health Vet Archer attacks and loses to a Regular Archer.

I am going to build Warriors with the hopes of using our money (we are doing a min run) on upgrading to swords.

930 AD: Declare War on Denmark.

Notes:
Horses should be connected next turn

Iron should be connected in two turns.

After we have horses and Iron I think things will be better. I would make warriors in Constantinople and Arianople next turn for more swords.

I continued the min run on Roman Secrets because only at 100% science could we reduce the cost and only to 33. We will have to have 20 more science than we have now to get it in a reasonable amount of time. I think we will want Libraries immediately after getting Catapults even though it is an optional tech. Otherwise all tech will take 40 turns.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a251/Greebley/Rat_930.jpg

I got it. I think I'll be able to play Tuesday, and if not I'll have to be skipped.

If your still looking can I join?

welcome, pat 4 :goodjob:

what a rough ride again here, very bad RnG...
we need to connect horses and iron so the kill ratio goes up...

new Roster

ThERat
pindicator
Greebley
empiremaker - up
pat 4 - on deck

I have a few questions before i start.

1. What are our short term goals e.g. with war

2. What are our meduim term goals e.g. land to take, civs to destroy.

3. What are our meduim term goals e.g. victory conditions

I would say our short term goals include:

1) Survive
2) Get an Army or two.
3) build a wall of cities to the southeast. We will eventually meet civs down there and have to fight them. Cities should be distance 3 in the front line so they can help defend one another.
4) I think Bulgar should be our first target. We want to weaken them by taking their cities (raze and replace or capture). I see Pliska as our first target. This will be easier when we get an army (should be a sword army or better Catpharacts - defense 1 Armies aren't worth much).
5) Connect Larissa to Adrianople by land with dist 3 cities.

Mid range goal is to grow. Get as many cities as we can with as small a front line as possible (though we keep growing when we can).
We do this by killing the leader units of other civs and then grabbing their land.
Also we want Jerusalem under our control


Long range goal is domination or conquest for normal AW. Here need to pay attention to Victory Points though to keep other civs from winning. To win ourselves I guess we can go for conquest or VP. Taking and holding Jerusalem should therefore be a goal. If VP victory is easiest we can discuss going for that otherwise we just go for conquest.

Wow a hundred and ten sg's this is my first.

pat4, don't feel intimidated. For a start, you might want to red up some past AW games that we played here to get a feel of the game style.

What is the difficulty level you feel comfortable with?

Just check his profile- it's Monarch. :p

I am afraid that I have just gotten too busy. Can I switch with the next player, I am sure that I will be able to play this weekend.

didn't see your post empire, that's fine, we'll slot you in this weekend

ok, pat4, your inaugural SG turnset is up

Cool I'll play it tonight when i get home from the gym.

Not bad turnset. No change in cities. Won little unit battle. Set up attack on pliska after drawing their forces to kutmich.... (something). Next up should take it. I didn't know what to do with the settler so I was going to leave it until I saw a good spot to the west of Constantinople.

T1: zzzz

T2:zzzz

T3:zzzz

T4:lost a spear on a hill to an injured archer the cheek.

T5:zzzzz

T6:One horse in my turn takes out an archer and in th Ai turn brushes off two swordsmen he's now elite

T7:Killed a spear taking a settler

T8:Upgrade warriors rush barracks

T9:put down a subsequently large attack on Heraclea

T10: zzzzz

Completed roads around our little empire. Ahh my first sg turnset and post I'll always remember it as boring. Can't wait for the real action to begin.

How do you post saves.

there is a sticky about posting saves and images...images are nice for the rest of the team and lurkers...make the whole turnset alive...

in the worst case, you can always attach a post under the 'manage attachments' button under additional options when you post

T6:One horse in my turn takes out an archer and in th Ai turn brushes off two swordsmen he's now elite

:goodjob: Sounds like the luck started to bounce back in our favor!

The save:

love from pat

got it...will play later

pat4, maybe it was my mistake to not make things clearer, but this is an AW game, means we need to declare war on everyone we meet immediately. I opened the save and found 4 nations at peace
when did we meet those guys....I think we should replay from the last save..though usually I do not do that...what do you guys think?

Sorry my bad I can replay it in about two hours if you want.

No need to say sorry. Because we play usually with 'old timers', I am pretty short with explanations these days..should have stated it earlier.

The condition is declare war with no deals made when we fist meet a Civ. We can later check whether the Civs are up in techs or have resources, bu no deals ever with them

Go ahead and replay, think it's better that way :)

They probably will be- they can sometimes beat me to tech in this scenario on much lower levels!

My turns were much the same as before and im in a rush so I'll just give a quick run down. We are barley hanging on in the west. Most of their troops must be thers so I think the time is right to attack in the East.

The save

sorry about that heres the save:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58602/Theodora_of_the_Byzantines_960_AD.SAV

ok, got it and will play tonight then so empire can play his turns over the weekend

save (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53368/Rat19_990AD.SAV)

Pre-Turn
see 2 of out near front cities, totally empty, that's scary in AW
MM some and fire a clown we have (in one of those empty towns)
we have space to settle and should do so now, order some settlers

defeat the sword outside Heraclea

IT lose Heracleia, the defense there is far too thin and the towns in the back empty...very scary

1.963AD
get back Heraclai, but there are many units around
we can only pray that we keep that town

we have a few reg swords, how did that happen? are they the original swords? shouldn't build reg units

IT we are lucky as we defend against an archer and the sword in herakleia goes elite

2.966AD
reinforce Herakleia with a spear, move to mountain to advance to Pliska

IT we get mighty lucky
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53368/rat19a.jpg

3. 969AD
form sword army filled with 2 units at the moment
build Trebizond to connect the east and west part of our empire

defeat a sword and move stack next to Pliska

IT defeat archer and sword on defense

4.972AD
there are too many units around Pliska, decide to split the stack to move some unitsd back and some west to combine with our army
defeat 2 spear and get another army, too good to be true

IT defeat a sword on defense
Vikings unload a zerk that takes out a worker :eek:

5. 975AD
form eastern sword army and take out that zerk

take out a Bulgar archer
from the south Turk warrior is approaching

IT the turks add 2 horses in the south, this can get dicey
Danes are running around with a zerk

6.978AD
move troops around to be able to defend better
bomb 2nd Norwegian longboat

IT lose a warrior at Sinope in the south, but beat a warrior, another zerk is dropped next to our capital

7.981AD
sink the first longboat and we enter our GA
found Chalcedon, retreat a horse
defeat zerk with horse so our army can heal

defeat 2 spears and take Stara Zagora from the Bulgars

IT lose another warrior in the south to horse, we are too thin there

8.984AD
found Sardica in the south
close shave as we defeat the horse in the south by going red with a sword
move east army to help defend Heraklea, since the enemy seems to head there
lose sword but beat zerk next to Heraklea

9.987AD
defeat 4 assorted units, giving us some breathing for a short while

IT defeat archer on defense and promote exposed sword elite

10.990AD
defeat 3 units, but lose the said elite sword and a horse in the south

situation:
we get the next tech in 11 turns on a min run and then should use our cash to go on a max for heavy cavalry

we need to get more units and then slowly inch our way forward not forgetting the south
there is also a settler ready to put down next turn
one army still needs a 3rd sword

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53368/rat19b.jpg

empire can now play on the weekend before we continue with greebley and the usual roster

The regular swords are almost certainly reg warrior upgrades - I know I built some regs. Given our lack of troops I think I agree with pat4 in upgrading them. We had the cash and need for the troops was strong.

Sounds like the cost of the terrible RNG during my turn was high - I think it was a good part of the reason we are so lacking in troops.

This campaign may be quite tough as AW at the Demigod level - especially since catapults are so far away.

Hey, who do you know right now (besides the Bulgars, Danes, and Turks)?

You guys are playing without initial trading, correct? Then, it may be worth to know that there is a IA equivalent with a late Byz tech.

Why on Earth do you aim at the Cataphrats early? They are horribly expensive, have horrible stats and require some extremely expensive techs...better get MDI asap. Don't think that is spoilerish, since everyone with the slightest familiarity with the Middle Ages will know that anyway. And another hint of the same category: Blacksmiths rule!

Btw, we played an AWM Byz already, and really, this was tough.
Of course, this may qualify as a spoiler, so this http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=97465 is for the lurkers.

Thanks DocT for the tips...maybe I was aiming far too high with DG here :blush:

let's finish the min run on the current tech and then go max for next tech, I will check the save to see what tech DocT was recommending

I got it. I'm praying to the RNG god.

I didn't check the cost of Catapharacts. I do think Catapults should be gotten so we probably should have gone there first. OTOH all techs we could learn were 40 turns so no tech was cheaper and we are nearly there.

I am worried we will be very far behind in science.

I too were thinking black smiths a good place to go.

This game will probably be a lost learning game, but we can try again. I don't think any of us is familiar with it.

Thanks for the pointers Doc T. I remember you being an expert at this scenario from before Civ 4 came out.

I checked the tech costs

catapharacts are 70 shields and 4/3/2 while crusaders are 40s 4/3/1

I don't think the mounted unit is such a bad deal with retreat etc. A catapharacts army would surely be great

guess empire couldn't play during the weekend,

ThERat
pindicator - up
Greebley - on deck
empiremaker
pat 4

I've played. I just haven't had time to upload. Should be within a couple of hours.

0- Switch Cornith to a settler

IBT- Lose Sinope. An elite spear lost to a vet horse.

3 zerks appear.

Bede ranks us 4th in land area.

1- Found Naissus

Upgrade 3 warriors.

2- Declare on Germany.

IBT- Buglars Assult Trebizond, the city holds.

A stack of Magayars appear.

Germany sends its settler into our territory. Free slaves anyone?

3- Found Dyrrachium

IBT- The Turks have a number of horses in Sinope.

4- Not much

Decare War on Burgundy

5-zzz

IBT- Lose a worker to a Buglar Stack

Lose Chalcedon to Turk Horses; it is razed.

6- Kill a lot of Turk Archers

IBT-Lose Larissa to Magayars

7- Prepare to recapture Larissa

8- Recapture Larissa

9- More slaves

Found Septum

IBT- Lots of Buglar Swords

Lose Heraclea

10- Not much

IBT - Even more Buglar Swords

11- Find a Magayar stack in the fog.

Found Nicomedia

Notes:

There are two stacks coming for us.

The Magayar one has 2 spears, 2 archers, 2 swords and a warrior.

The Buglar one has 10 swords and 2 spears spread out over 3 tiles.

Lost Roman Secrets in 1.

There are slaves under the northern army; use them to reroad that tile.

Avoid meeting Assabids

I played 11 turns so that I end on turn 60.

The Save (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58832/Rat19_1023AD.SAV.zip)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58832/1023.png

Just from the picture, our east looks shaky. I'll play by Thursdasy.

So we lost our Iron? That could be trouble. I assume that will be our first priority.

I might have aimed too high with demigod, maybe we should just try this at monarch first to get a feel?

First, you should see how long you can last here. :)

Well...at max until the Abbasids show up with Ansars. :mischief:

Short summary of the Middle Ages basics:

There is no defence (ok, there are capable defenders in the 3rd era; but, hardly a game really lasts that long)
Some unit stats:
Attackers
Berserks (6/2/1, amphibious; right from the start!)
Ansars (5/2/3)
Sipahi (6/3/3)
Knights (5/3/2)
Assassins (5/1/1)
Defenders
Spearmen (1/2/1)
Crusaders (4/3/1) and Pikes (2/4/1) come pretty late, Swissies (3/5/1) come too late.

You can prevent German + Polish Knights and Sipahi by strategic pillaging; resources are pretty scarce.

Dromons rock, but they require Tar. There are two sources somewhat nearby, but nevertheless hard to secure.

Ugrade path is a bit surprising - Swords do not upgrade to MDI, but to Crusaders.

Blacksmiths rule. So do Libraries (come with Arab learning!).

Tech path: IMHO there is no real alternative to a min run on a Byz tech first, then head for MDI asap. That also means Cats (Early Siegecraft is the only prerequisite to Medieval Combat)



Good luck for this game; I'll be lurking.

I would like to play a bit more to get a better feel of the scenario I think. If we cannot get our iron back or we lose further towns - well that will be a good sign we should start on an easier level.

ThERat
pindicator - indicated skip in CIV SG
Greebley - up
empiremaker
pat 4

Ok I got it then.

Preturn: It doesn't look hopeful. There are 9 swords about to attack our town guarded by 3 units. I will play it and see.
I think we want our Dromon near our cities and helping by bombarding. Its the only bombardment we got. [Edit: Except we also need them to kill enemy ships. Ugh!


IBT: Lose our sword near Sinope to an Archer. Lose our Spear in Adrianople. Kill a Warrior and a Sword.

1026 AD: Our Armies have Atrocious RNG. One loses 10 hp to a Spear. the other is pretty badly hurt as well.
We are going to need a lot of luck in the IBT to survive. Many enemy units.

IBT: Adrianople does poorly and falls easily.

1029 AD: Two Horsemen kill 2 Spear that would pillage our Horses. Two Swords both lose to a single Spear.

IBT: A Berserker grabs our Island city. We have Spear walking our lands and the Horses fall again and will surely be pillaged.
Actually we have coastal cities with no unit guarding near the Berserker boats.

1032 AD: Attempt to sink the invading boat so it cannot bring back more zerks, but lose even though odds were 2 to 1 in our favor.
I could probably give up now - no way we can win this, but I will play a little longer to prove it.

IBT: One of the coastal cities I mentioned above is taken by a Berserk. The Spear on the way wasn't fast enough.

Our capitol and Nicea are going to fall soon. We don't have enough units to defend. I think I will stop here. A win is impossible.

Notes: My RNG has been attrocious this game. Don't think it mattered this second turn though - we just wouldn't have lost so quickly if we had average luck.

I suggest trying Monarchy. I also don't think I like our location. Hard to defend with the resources exposed and vulnerable. Wouldn't mind trying another civ.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a251/Greebley/Rat_AD1038.jpg

ouch :(

well, demigod was too steep...

so, is the rest in far try at monarch with a different civ...I guess the central europeans are out due to too many contacts. Zerks rock, but even Norway has many contacts early on...we could try that though if we want

who is up for it?

If you want to avoid contact, play as one of the Arabic civs. If you want cool units and buildings, Play as a Viking civ or the Kievan Rus. If you want an all-out slugfest and a challenge, play as one of the European civs.

My 5c:

Byzantium was by no means a bad choice for AW; this even is somewhat historically correct. Also, this is the only Civ in this conquest that starts with (at least marginally) developed cities and lands...

Any Civ with immediate contact to one of the Viking Civs + AW = You will loose all coastal cities. Germans and Franks may be able to cope with that, since of course you can recapture Boulonge or Bremen about as easy. 'Zerks aren't good at defending, and expensive...the initial units won't last long. But the Middle European Civs, well, have to face the other Middle European Civs as well. :p

And, there is another important 'ugly' feature in this conquest: Have you checked the Barbarian stats? For example, the true enemy for Sweden and Fatimids are the Grey Folks here...especially the first uprising on the era change!

Civs I consider doable, even on Monarch:
Byzantium (really doable), Turks (best traits IMHO for AW, the only MIL/COM Civ in that conquest), Abbasids.
Maybe Sweden, maybe Fatimids (but the later will have to deal with Dromons and Berserks!).

And well...I actually have retired from SGs, but if you look for one more player for this...I may be interested, if you want me. :)

I for one would welcome you doc :D

Sounds like the other civs are worse then - not an easy scenario for AW. I think Byz would be playable at Monarch. I was playing around with the start and notice they start with more cities than some of the other civs which would be a real advantage at an easier difficulty level.

My thought on tech was to go for Catapults early. I can see why going for MDI first is good in that you do go for cats as a prereq.

I was playing a test game as the Rus (not AW). I liked them. They start with lots of forests, zerks, and are 2 techs away from smithing. On the downside, they have no immeditate luxries and are very spread out. I would be willing to try Turks or Abbassids.

:D Doc T in my SG, that would be an honor for me!!!

pindicator and pat4 have not indicated their interest yet, but we have 4 players already here

I played around with some Civs to test. I found Norway impossible due to the spread and many early contacts. But Sweden was really doable if one is fast and swiftly takes out Danes and Norway to prevent more zerk attacks.

Russia's initial cities are terribly spread...a :nono: for AW

What would you guys think of Sweden? Initial turns going after Danes, then Norway?

Sweden...you know, I predict that'll be a painfully boring game...

It'll be pretty much that way:
We will loose Staraya Ladoga, of course; no big deal.
We will get rid of Danes and Norway soon; since this is Regicide, they only problem should be to get enough Longships (IIRC we only start with 2, and can't build any before turn 40). And here, it's a question of pure luck, if the Market and especially the Harbor in Hedeby survives.
With no Harbor there, we will have no Horses or 2nd luxury in the homeland EVER (the only other Harbor in the North is Dorestad, but this place is near impossible to defend), and no Iron or Furs on the main landmass.
OTOH, we are pretty much untouchable on our continent - until the 3rd era, nobody in the vicinity can build anything but Curraghs (capacity 1).

Thus, I see us building Wealth for like 100 turns, since we cannot afford more units and with no structures available, only making some hit-and-run attacks on larger settlements until we've reached the 30k. Considering a size 12 city (London will reach that size pretty fast) yields 1.2k already, those won't be even hard to come by...

Rus - interesting unit selection, and interesting techs. And impossible to play - they're so spread out, they're nearly unplayable above Emperor in a normal game!

Turks - more the classical "hiding in a corner". With a neat problem: No Horses nearby...

[COLOR="White"]Abbassids[/tag not closed for good reason] - Guess we'd never ever face anyone but Byz, Turks and Fatimids plus the odd Berserk.

The real problem with anyone but Byz and Abbassids is research capacity, IMHO. With Sweden, you could as well turn of research after Blackmiths (120 turns, no way around...) or even Longships; with the Turks, we at least benefit from a neighbor researching in the same direction.

I'd vote for Byzantium or Abbassids.

thanks for the update...I didn't know tech research is so terrible for Sweden

I'd say lets go for Byz again on monarch then. Will start the game later on today in a new thread

as soon as you do, post a link to the new thread from this one. ;)

Hey, I'm at least moved in enough now that I have my comp up and running on the internet again. I would love to give this a try at a more manageable dificulty level.

great news pindicator...hope your new place is nice

anyway started the new game
check it out here
Rat20 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=5241055#post5241055)

I'd be up for another game.

ok pat4, just saw your comments, will add you to the Roster in Rat20