It's time for a new term and a new thread.

This term we will need to plan on a new research path (the one we have from the previous term is about to expire) and work on a settlement plan. We will be cranking a settler out of Baldric every 4 turns, so we should be pretty busy.

Also, build plans will become more interesting this term as we grow to about 9 cities by the end of the term.

Please discuss all things related to bean counting (domestic issues) here.

EDIT: I got tired of searching the thread for plans about the different cities, so I thought I would start to post the long-term plans in this post (easy to find!).

As such, here they are:

~Baldric: Settler factory indefinitely
~Scymitar: 3 warrior + 2 worker factory indefinitely
~Georgetown: Worker, then Wonder or curragh
~Taiaha: Worker factory indefinitely
~Claymore: Worker, Curragh or Wonder
~classical_hero town: warrior, then worker?
~Yatagan: ???

For research, based on what we've seen of the world so far, it looks like Alphabet may be necessary to build a curragh or two and try to make some friends.

Although we still have some fog to uncover, the sooner we can get a settlement plan together (both city location and settlement order) the better off we will be since we can make sure our workers are in the right area to make our new cities productive right away.

Also, keep us informed on what you're thinking for future builds (again, so our workers can be most efficient). For example, I think this should probably be our last worker from Scymitar for a while since it has no tiles greater than 2fpt. What will Scymitar be building? Warriors? Barracks + advanced military? Granary? Wonder?

I'm assuming our next city will be on the flood plains SE of the wines. This city will have 1 flood plains tile to work and could build a worker or two until we settle a higher food location. Or curraghs?

At some point during this term, we will have to decide if we want to convert Baldric into a 4-turn settler + warrior factory instead of just a 4-turn settler factory. The advantage is obviously a "free" warrior every 4 turns. The disadvantages are that it must grow to size 5 in order to operate this way. That means there is a 2 turn delay in all our future settlers from making the conversion. The other disadvantage is that Baldric will need prime tiles to do this which takes something away from our other cities (I'm not really sure how significant this is).

If we are on an island, then I don't think it is worth making the conversion - I think the extra warriors are not worth the 2 turn delay. If we have neighbors, then it is a tougher decision. The earliest we could make the switch is after the turn 45 settler is produced (it would take that long to improve the necessary tiles), so we have some time to decide, but (once again) the sooner we make a decision the better we will know which tiles have to be improved first.

:salute:

Are we even trying to go for the philosophy slingshot? 2 of the other teams started with alpha, so it doesnt sound too feasable, but if we are, then alphabet has got to be next. Alpha would give us ships, too. However, we could start iron working or the wheel to see where our resources are (if any). If we have iron, archers wouldn't be as useful, and extra warriors could be upgraded. finding horses could allow us to start horsemen and maybe someday upgrade them to Siphai, but that's a long way off.

We are currently researching the Wheel. Iron Working is a definite possibility if we decide we don't need Alphabet yet. I don't think we have any chance of getting Philosophy first. We have already spent time on Pottery and Warrior Code, and we are doing the Wheel, and most likely the Iroquois researched Writing first.

@Chamnix: Can you give us a shot of the current tech status, please?

..., and we are doing the Wheel,...

Sorry, I know we were discussing it before, I didn't realize we've started it.

Then Horseback riding will be available as a choice after wheel finishes. :goodjob:

Sorry, I know we were discussing it before, I didn't realize we've started it.

Then Horseback riding will be available as a choice after wheel finishes. :goodjob:

I'd prefer iron working....I want some SWORDS...

If this doesn't work out and no iron appears...we could try Horseback Riding...but who delivers the shoes :p Should stop drinking that wine...:crazyeye:

If no horses appear when the wheel is complete, then Iron Working is a must. If they are there, then I'd go for HBR next to allow use to build horses (mobile defense force) and then go for iron working.

Don't we need some economic techs first? (Just wondering, I've no idea)
Because we haven't met anyone yet, so chances are we won't need a complete army the next couple of turns.

With researching iron, I don't want to build up a whole army, but I want to know if we actually have iron anywhere. I regard this as important for the further planning...

If we are on an island, then I think we need Alphabet more than Iron Working whether we have horses or not.

If we are on an island, then I think we need Alphabet more than Iron Working whether we have horses or not.

Sure, but it will last a little bit till we know...

What is the latest settlement plan for our team?

Proposed location for our new city: Flood plains SE of the wines. Please discuss this and potential names for the city.

I will draw up a settlement plan very soon. I'm waiting for a little bit more of the map to be uncovered.

As for research, I am strongly in favor of obtaining Alphabet next. Then we can do Iron Working or HBR. But if we're on an island (even if we're not - having a curragh will speed exploration along) we are going to want Alphabet immediately.

As for naming cities, I propose we begin naming them after historical or mythical swords. For reference and a list of possible names fitting this criteria, see this wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_swords#History_and_mythology). The list should be considered a starting point for discussion - we can also include other swords that may come from a team member's favorite literary work (or movie - you get the idea).

Perhaps we should start this process with the most famous sword of all, Excalibur?

Well, didn't we plan to let everybody name a city in the same order as we entered the team? No? Great, because I already had my thoughts for a name and came to: Yatagan

Here's why: http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/ataghan

I'd prefer every team member picking there favourite sword.
It's the best of two idea's :p

Concerning city names, we did agree that everyone gets to name their own city name. And since our next city will be city #3, and I was the 3rd person to join our team, that means I hold the power. ;)

Personally, I like gbno1fan's idea, but I'm still not sure what name I would like for my city.

Oops. I forgot that we were taking turns naming cities - Chamnix asked me for the next city name so I got thrown off. However, I do like the idea I came up with of naming them after famous swords.

Greekguy, feel free to think of a name quickly (as in the next day or two).

Greekguy, have you reached a decision on what you want to name the new city? The turn is upon us and I'm not sure if the city will be founded on this turn or the next one.

Greekguy, have you reached a decision on what you want to name the new city? The turn is upon us and I'm not sure if the city will be founded on this turn or the next one.

It will be founded on turn 35.

Any official decisions on what to build next in Scymitar and what to research next?

I am planning on Alphabet next.

As for Scymitar, we haven't had much discussion. Here are the options:

~ Granary - This may be important for growth since we have such limited food in this location.
~ Barracks - If we want to continue building military from this city, a barracks is in line. However, if we are on an island, we may want to limit our military for a while.
~ Warrior - It may be nice to have more MP to go around, but are we on an island?
~ Worker - No more from this location due to the low food output.
~ Palace - :lol: It is an option, after all...
~ Wealth - No thanks.
~ Wonder pre-build - Not yet.

At this point, I favor the construction of a granary. What are some other opinions?

It doesn't really matter at the moment, does it? We can always change.
If we still seem to be alone when we need to decide, then a granary is best, else a warrior or barracks.

You're right that it doesn't matter an awful lot (unless we want wealth :lol:), but it is best to have a plan. What we are building can sometimes affect which tiles we assign citizens to, and which tiles we improve and how we improve them.

My gut reaction is to build 2 warriors to MP in Baldric and cut down our luxury spending unless we anticipate our explorers coming home soon. Even if we are on an island, we will certainly find a use for 5 warriors as MP before too long.

As for Scymitar, we haven't had much discussion.

Well, let's get discussing. We will also have another city on turn 35 that will need a plan. We can start talking about that anytime as well.

I'm not certain what the corruption will be, but I think our new city will be able to build a worker in 7 turns mostly using the flood plains (definitely no more than 8 turns), then after that we can prebuild for a curragh as long as we are going Alphabet next.

how about a warrior as MP in Baldric to allow us keeping research high...?

I wouldn't build barracks right now, as it is likely that we won't meet many civs in the near future...

Keeping the discussion going...though I am beginning to agree about the warriors...

While I agree that we would find a use for 5 MP very easily and that building 2 warriors right now might be good, I still tend to feel that a granary would be a good option. If we can get our city to grow up a little bit, we will be able to work those hills for shields - and later we can pump MP out very quickly.

Why work hills in a city short on food?

A granary in a core town is never a bad option. Just to play :devil:'s advocate:

I don't think we will be working those hills until we are out of despotism, and that is still a long ways away. Hills are only 1/2/x tiles in despotism, and that is only if we can spare the worker turns to mine them, and our workers probably have other priorities that are not as time-consuming.

As far as pumping out MPs, warriors are the best MP since they are cheap. I don't see Scymitar producing 10 spt in despotism, so 5 spt is sufficient. To get to 5 spt, size 3 or 4 should be adequate (depending on what tiles we assign to Scymitar). Even if we started a granary now, we would not get to size 3 any sooner.

I'm trying to determine when we would be likely complete a granary if we started it now. I think we could finish it just before we reached size 3 (perfect timing). If we build 1 warrior first, then in order to complete it before reaching size 3, we have to chop a forest - which is fine because if we are growing Scymitar, then the forest to its north should come down anyway so it has another grass tile to work.

If we build 2 warriors first, then it becomes very difficult to complete a granary before size 3.

The problem is our research is really suffering without any MP. Maybe Bond should just keep heading south instead of turning west through the fog.

I'll be back later to try to quantify our options.

Here is my estimate of our luxury spending by turn based on the number of MPs in Baldric:

Turn 34 –

0 MP – 4 gold
1 MP – 3 gold
2 MP – 1 gold

Turn 35 –

0 MP – 5 gold
1 MP – 5 gold
2 MP – 1 gold

Turn 36 –

0 MP – 5 gold
1 MP – 5 gold
2 MP – 1 gold

Turn 37 –

0 MP – 4 gold
1 MP – 1 gold
2 MP – 0 gold

Turn 38 –

0 MP – 4 gold
1 MP – 1 gold
2 MP – 0 gold

Turn 39 –

0 MP – 6 gold
1 MP – 6 gold
2 MP – 1 gold

Turn 40 –

0 MP – 6 gold
1 MP – 6 gold
2 MP – 1 gold

It is starting to get ugly since that is just lost money. If our explorers returned straight home, here is the earliest they could each reach Baldric:

Bond – Turn 39
Blofeld – Turn 36 (if he goes north this turn as planned, then turn 38).
Moneypenny – Turn 39

New Warrior(s) from Scymitar – turns 40 and 44.

I guess what I’m getting out of this is that there is probably no need for 2 warriors from Scymitar, but one of our explorers should probably turn homeward sooner rather than later. Maybe Blofeld or Bond can plan to arrive on turn 40?

Then we can chop a granary in Scymitar before growth to size 3 – Scymitar can then operate at 5 spt and build something like 3 warriors and 2 workers every 10 turns.

Alright, then let's do the following:

Bond will explore the coastline (but before he goes south to uncover some tiles)
Moneypenny continues as planned
Blofeld returns to Baldric as quick as possible

I'll change the official turn orders for turn 34!!

Good lesson for us in why to discuss things in advance - since Bond is now being reassigned to the coastline, he probably should have gone SE last turn instead of SW now east.

Actually, looking at it again, I think Bond should still go south this turn. He will uncover a couple more tiles, and then he can go east and still see as much of the coastline.

Also, for Blofeld, there doesn't seem to be any advantage to getting him to Baldric on turn 36 - he won't save us any money on turn 36 by himself. I think he should go NW this turn to uncover 1 more tile then plan to arrive in Baldric on 37.

Good lesson for us in why to discuss things in advance - since Bond is now being reassigned to the coastline, he probably should have gone SE last turn instead of SW now east.

Actually, looking at it again, I think Bond should still go south this turn. He will uncover a couple more tiles, and then he can go east and still see as much of the coastline.

Also, for Blofeld, there doesn't seem to be any advantage to getting him to Baldric on turn 36 - he won't save us any money on turn 36 by himself. I think he should go NW this turn to uncover 1 more tile then plan to arrive in Baldric on 37.

Yes I had the same thought about bond and already changed it back to south!!

As for Blofeld: Let him go NW to uncover that one more tile...

So where does that leave us with Scymitar? Granary? Warrior-Granary (with chop)?

I would be willing to build a warrior first since we will need to chop the forest anyway. What turn would the granary finish?

If we are going to build a granary, then I like warrior-granary with chop. That way we can have 2 MPs in Baldric and still keep 2 warriors out to finish the exploring.

The way I'm picturing the options:

Granary first (no chop) - complete on turn 53 52

or

Warrior first - complete on turn 39 38
Granary with chop - complete on turn 53 52

EDIT - trying to continue planning in advance... what do people think of worker-curragh from our third town?

what do people think of worker-curragh from our third town?

For our third town I'd have suggested a curragh anyway! Maybe two to cover both directions. Possibly - even if we are on an island - there are shallow passages to our opponents?!

If we tried building a curragh first, then I'm not sure we will have Alphabet discovered before we get 15 shields - it will be close. We could always build wealth for a turn (or two) first in order to time it properly. (I'm not sure if you were suggesting a curragh first instead of a worker or not, but I thought I'd cover all my bases :)).

I think 2 curraghs (at least) is a good idea also - it will depend on where our future towns go whether we build both from our third town or whether other towns can build them as well.

Scymitar - I will update the orders to be Warrior-Granary. I trust you will make sure the forest will be chopped properly to time for granary completion before growth to size 3, Oh Great and Powerful Sultan.

Town 3 (Excalibur?) - Worker-Curragh-Curragh is my thought so far.

I trust you will make sure the forest will be chopped properly to time for granary completion before growth to size 3, Oh Great and Powerful Sultan.

You just make sure you keep ordering up enough workers for me to play with ;).

You just make sure you keep ordering up enough workers for me to play with

Isn't that part of your "contract" to play for SABER? Or was it just an under the table perk that can't be documented? ;)

After I've mulled over what I want my city name to be, I've finally come to a decision. Our 3rd city shall be named Georgetown, in honor of the university that will be winning this year's NCAA March Madness.

Isn't that part of your "contract" to play for SABER? Or was it just an under the table perk that can't be documented? ;)

:lol: I'd like to think my astonishing persuasive PM was what convinced the Great Chamnix to join our then small team. ;)

I am not sure whether this is ment serious!?! But it doesn't really fit into our naming scheme, does it?

Please correct me if I am wrong, or misunderstanding something :confused:

Technically our naming scheme is that each player gets to choose the city names. Greekguy has chosen Georgetown.

I have only suggested that we follow the swords guideline - and I encourage everyone else to do so. But in this case, greekguy has the final say and I support the name - especially since that's the team that is at the top of my pool choices. ;)

As team member # 15, I'm kind glad that sword names aren't a requirement as I doubt I can name 10 different swords, let alone 15.

On a more serious topic, I think our number 1 goal at the moment is determine if we're alone on an island. The answer to that question will have a major impact on just about any decision we make for the next 50 turns.

I changed my granary projections in post 35 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5199041&postcount=35). The turn earlier on the granary isn't particularly important - now it will complete 2 turns before growth instead of the turn before, and it still needs a chop to complete before growth.

More importantly, we can still get a warrior in 4 from Scymitar by working the mined wines (instead of the BG that I forgot to mine earlier), so he can get to Baldric on turn 39 saving us 5 gold in luxuries. I'm very relieved that my brain fart with the worker moves didn't end up costing us anything (this time). At least it woke me up.

Proposed Turn 35 orders:

Settler founds Georgetown
Georgetown begins building Worker.

Any problems with these orders, please discuss immediately.

This is a strange question, but what are our plans for the victory condition we're going for? Are we going for conquest/domination? Sorry if it sounds rediculous, but I favor a spaceship victory.

Also, even though my latest tech research suggestions may have seemed against it, I am happy with researching alphabet. On an aside, it's too bad we couldn't trade for it as at least two opponents know it.

Seeing the horses, I'm going to jump to the conclusion we will have at least 2 iron nearby, maybe even one in that lone mountain north of the capital, making my desire to lobby for iron working less. Horseback riding is now my favored next tech, although we now have Mathematics as a possiblility as well.

A granery in Georgetown would probably be good, as that is a higher food location and the granery would benefit growth, but the curragh should be first. We can save Moneypenny from walking west to investigate the swamp and recall it for MP duty (it can be there in 3 or 4 turns), but then send curragh No. 1 west. A second curragh could be helpful, but I don't think we need Georgetown to spit out 2 in a row. City 4 can do it.

On the city naming, Georgetown is fine by me. We can stick to swords or blades, but since the agreed upon guide is everyone names a city, I would just like to say as long the name is not objectionable than anything goes.

I was also wondering if we should slightly alter our naming scheme to 001 Baldric, 002 Scymitar, and so on, or would this give too much information to our opponents when we finally do meet them.

I just tried putting together a settlement plan - it still seems that we need more of the black to the north of Baldric uncovered before any significant plans can be made.

That means our next settler will complete before the official plan is drawn up. As a result, we need to begin talking about possible locations for the next city location. I came up with 4 locations for us to discuss. Below you will find a screenshot for reference.

1 - Gets us another city on the coast and is near Baldric for low corruption (I don't know much about corruption other than the basic: distance is bad, high number of cities is bad - so Chamnix, your input is needed for corruption issues).
2 - Pop that hut! Also stay close to Baldric and begin settling the center of our landmass.
3 - Gems and coast.
4 - Coastal location with fish and horses (though we do have horses ready to be hooked up by Baldric).

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/218/city4siteslw1.th.jpg (http://img134.imageshack.us/my.php?image=city4siteslw1.jpg)

@Marsden. We chose Ottomans so that we could have an awesome Cavalry UU for attacking, so I would be very surprised if we did not try and go for a conquest/Domination victory.

@Marsden~

Since a significant majority of PBEM games end through Domination, I believe that should be our primary victory path. However, we should also have a secondary plan in case the optimal time to attack never occurs. Therefore, we should also prepare for a possible spaceship path.

I am glad you're on board for Alphabet. I favor Horseback Riding next so that we can begin pumping out Horsemen - we don't want to build too many other units since our UU is an upgrade on the Horse path.

That makes the most sense, of course. I noted somewhere that upgrade to Siphai was a main strategy, especially because of the high shield cost. I can't remember which thread now. :crazyeye:


Also, I like the research victories better than straight military, but that's a personal preference and I wouldn't put that above what is best for the team.

I just tried putting together a settlement plan - it still seems that we need more of the black to the north of Baldric uncovered before any significant plans can be made.

What's more important at the moment, uncovering or MP duty?

Well we have another warrior coming out of Scymitar for MP duty. I am hoping that we can have 2 MP in Baldric and at least 1 explorer uncovering that black to the north.

This is a strange question, but what are our plans for the victory condition we're going for? Are we going for conquest/domination? Sorry if it sounds rediculous, but I favor a spaceship victory.

Not at all a strange question :thumbsup:. We should definitely talk about this so we have a real plan. The problem with multiplayer games is that you can't just get out of war whenever you want. To win a spaceship game, you must be able to defend yourself against bombers, and you can eventually expect to be nuked many times. But for now all victory conditions (except 20K which I definitely don't recommend) are fairly similar - we need more land no matter what we go for.

Also, even though my latest tech research suggestions may have seemed against it, I am happy with researching alphabet. On an aside, it's too bad we couldn't trade for it as at least two opponents know it.

I agree - I really wanted to trade for it :sad:.

Horseback riding is now my favored next tech, although we now have Mathematics as a possiblility as well.

I favor Horseback Riding next so that we can begin pumping out Horsemen - we don't want to build too many other units since our UU is an upgrade on the Horse path.

I don't see a need for horseback riding yet - it is a dead-end tech and we could build chariots for upgrade as easily as we could build horses for upgrade. Mathematics or Writing both sound better to me.

We can save Moneypenny from walking west to investigate the swamp and recall it for MP duty (it can be there in 3 or 4 turns), but then send curragh No. 1 west.

It will be a while before we have a need for more than 2 MPs. We can only use 2 in Baldric, and we won't need any anywhere else until we reach size 3.

On the city naming, Georgetown is fine by me. We can stick to swords or blades, but since the agreed upon guide is everyone names a city, I would just like to say as long the name is not objectionable than anything goes.

If Georgetown gets knocked out in the first or second round, do we change the name :mischief:?

I was also wondering if we should slightly alter our naming scheme to 001 Baldric, 002 Scymitar, and so on, or would this give too much information to our opponents when we finally do meet them.

I don't really see a need for that. We are not likely to have so many cities that we need an ordering scheme.

@gbno1fan - I was also working on a settlement plan at the same time, but I accidentally deleted mine :cry:. I was focusing on the northeast more - we don't have complete information, but I'd really like to see our next city make use of the wheat (FOOD!!!!). The problem I was having is that to get the river and the wheat, we crowd a potential eastern coastal city. It is also preferable to settle on the coast instead of 1 tile away, but if we settle on the coast, then we can't use the wheat city to work Baldric's extra flood plains (which would get us to +5 fpt).

I didn't actually come to any good conclusions, and maybe Bond will help over the next couple of turns, but I would like to try to place a city in that area ASAP.

And while I was typing, 2 more posts came up... I think MP is more important right now - we will get that area uncovered soon enough. The map will look the same a few turns later, but lost gold is gone forever.

If we're going for Domination, how many tiles do we need?
Mapstat says that there are 5000 tiles on the map.

We need 2/3 of the "domination" tiles - that is, tiles excluding ocean and sea tiles. We won't know what the domination limit is for a while.

But 5000 tiles? Isn't that a standard sized map instead of small? That would explain the lower-than-expected corruption in Scymitar, but shouldn't the tech costs be higher then? I think the tech costs are appropriate for Emperor small. :confused:

I'd like to see us get to our chosen government sometime soon and get away from the despotism penalties. If we wait too long, we'll pay a price in an extended anarchy.

I'm still pushing to uncover whether we're on an island ASAP. If the powers that be decided to place each team on a different island, we might find it wise to discuss a non-war victory condition as amphib invasions are a challenge (unless preceded by a nuclear barrage).

I'd like to see us get to our chosen government sometime soon and get away from the despotism penalties. If we wait too long, we'll pay a price in an extended anarchy.

I'm still pushing to uncover whether we're on an island ASAP. If the powers that be decided to place each team on a different island, we might find it wise to discuss a non-war victory condition as amphib invasions are a challenge (unless preceded by a nuclear barrage).

This makes much sense to me, but that would mean writing as a priority next, and I'm not sure if we should go that way yet. While writing is very important, it doesn't give any new units or buildings, and we have no contacts to establish embassies (if so inclined). And while we are forced to research alphabet by necessity, hopefully we could trade for it (writing) after contacting someone else. We are assuming that one of the commercial civs went straight for the philo slingshot and should have it, I think.

As mentioned, I think we should look to settle by the wheat with our next settler if possible. Here is what I’m thinking about settling the northeast based on what we’ve seen so far:

Red dot #1 seems like a natural city at the end of our world, but it misses the river. Moving to red dot #2 loses some tiles but keeps the river.

I kind of prefer blue dot #1 to blue dot #2, but if we use red #2, then that pretty much forces blue #2.

The sticky part is the one by the wheat, and I think that’s the one we should try to settle first.

Yellow dot –

Positives: On the river, can work the flood plains that Baldric isn’t using which can get it to +5 fpt with the wheat, makes it easy to irrigate the wheat.

Negatives: Crowds the red dots, is an awkward distance from the coast.

Black dot –

Positives: Can work flood plains, clears jungle.

Negatives: Not on the river, is an awkward distance from the coast.

Grey dot –

Positives: Is on the coast.

Negatives: Not on the river, cannot reach flood plains.

Red #3 could conceivably be our wheat city – it loses a couple tiles to the southeast of it and is not on the river but is on the coast.

The settler will pop on turn 37. Bond will uncover some more tiles by then, and, if people agree that the wheat is the way to go, I think on turn 37 we can safely move the settler to the jungle bananas and then pick a final location based on what we see.

Thoughts?

http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/7273/mtdgiinecitiessx5.th.jpg (http://img181.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mtdgiinecitiessx5.jpg)

We need 2/3 of the "domination" tiles - that is, tiles excluding ocean and sea tiles. We won't know what the domination limit is for a while.

But 5000 tiles? Isn't that a standard sized map instead of small? That would explain the lower-than-expected corruption in Scymitar, but shouldn't the tech costs be higher then? I think the tech costs are appropriate for Emperor small. :confused:

CRPMapstat Turn 34:

Territory tab:
visible tiles 1876 (seems unreasonably high, could be the number of land tiles that we could derive from all sorts of data)
unclaimed (I guess that's the number of unclaimed land tiles we can see?) 193
Team Saber: 27 tiles

Terrain tab:
Total 5000 tiles
Visible 233 tiles 4,7%

But 193 + 27 = 220 < 230 :confused:
Anyone got more experience than me with mapstat?

CRPMapstat Turn 34:

Territory tab:
visible tiles 1876 (seems unreasonably high, could be the number of land tiles that we could derive from all sorts of data)
unclaimed (I guess that's the number of unclaimed land tiles we can see?) 193
Team Saber: 27 tiles

Terrain tab:
Total 5000 tiles
Visible 233 tiles 4,7%

But 193 + 27 = 220 < 230 :confused:
Anyone got more experience than me with mapstat?

There are 13 sea tiles visible - that accounts for the difference between the 233 visible "terrain" tiles and the 220 "territory" tiles (sea tiles don't count as territory for domination).

I have absolutely no idea where the 1876 comes from :confused:.

Re:Settlement

The wheat certainly is appealing. I will add some potential locations to my settlement plan once we uncover the black around the wheat. What I had planned was to get started on what we can see right now. Then slowly add to it.

That said, the gray dot looks intriguing. Hopefully it will be adjacent to a lake - though I doubt it. I don't like the idea of wasting tiles if we can avoid it, which means possibly building an aquaduct instead of having fresh water.

It looks like you have a good start on our remaining land - I just want a higher food spot first even if we can't see everything yet :D.

With respect to the spots you picked:

#4 looks like a definite winner.
#2 I'd call probable right now - we just have to uncover a little more fog to be sure.
#3 is a tough one. It is another case of having to decide between fresh water and better spacing.
#1 depends on what we do with the wheat - it could be moved NE or south.

Observations about Mapstat in general:

Territory
Total = All domination tiles? Seems to me that this is spoiler information
Unclaimed = all unclaimed land and coast tiles
Civ = all land and coast tiles claimed by this civ.

With respect to the spots you picked:

#4 looks like a definite winner.
#2 I'd call probable right now - we just have to uncover a little more fog to be sure.
#3 is a tough one. It is another case of having to decide between fresh water and better spacing.
#1 depends on what we do with the wheat - it could be moved NE or south.

#3 - definitely a tough one. We can discuss it more later.
#1 - is that water to the SW fresh? If so, #1 should definitely be moved S.

For reference, here is what we have so far:
http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/218/city4siteslw1.th.jpg (http://img134.imageshack.us/my.php?image=city4siteslw1.jpg)

Noob question: What's great about four? It has fish, some (not many) grasslands and a lot of mountains.

It's not great - by "definite winner", I just meant a future city is certain to go there mainly because of the fresh water.

Mountains are not terrible in Civ 3 - they take time to improve, but they do provide 3 shields when worked as long as you have enough grass nearby to provide food.

Proposed Orders:
1. Baldric completes settler, begins settler.
2. New settler heads toward wheat area.

Where do we think we want to settle at the wheat? It seems another lake may exist N of the wheat. In that case, NE of wheat might be a good spot. Let's head in that direction and then decide.

Also, I'd like to know how many different types of luxes we have uncovered and how many of each there seems to be. This landmass is screaming early republic with all that fresh water. However, we need to have the luxes to make it work.

So far we only have 2 different luxuries. I count 4 sources of gems and 3 of wines. Even still, Republic will be far superior to Monarchy if we don't have to maintain a large military.

I agree with moving toward the wheat and wait and see. Right now, I like the jungle tile west of the wheat. It has the advantages of being able to get to +5 fpt in despotism, it saves us from having to clear a jungle tile, and it is close enough to our capital to be useful for commerce and get enough shields for 4-turn workers without growing too big.

Its major downfall is that it is not on fresh water. If that is another 1-tile lake north of the wheat, then we can plant a city north of the lake or northeast of the lake so we still have one fresh-water city, and 2 around that lake would be crowded anyway. Also, if we are looking at this city as a long-term worker factory, it is not as important to be on fresh water because we will not want it to grow to size 7 until we are done pumping out workers.

Those are my thoughts for now, subject to change with every tile that is uncovered...

Well if there are no other comments about the proposed orders, I'll go ahead and post them in the appropriate thread.

Re: Luxury Resources - It seems to me that this map is designed to enhance and require diplomacy. We have 4 sources of 1 luxury (enough to supply us and everyone except 1 other team) and 3 sources of another (enough to supply us and exactly half of the other teams). If all of the landmasses are like this, it is going to be very difficult to obtain 1 source of all of the luxuries. This makes getting a curragh out there to meet another team ever more important. The sooner we can start building relationships, the easier it will be to trade resources.

We do have a lot of quiet people, but I do see lots of people checking our forums and hopefully they will speak up if they disagree with anything...

I come to a different conclusion about luxuries. If this is an island (why does everything start with that?), then every team probably has 7 luxuries. That would mean there are at least 35 luxuries total, or more than 4 of each type on average. There may be some that are rarer than others and be good for trading, but overall I think luxuries will be abundant.

I'm actually hoping for an island and everyone else is also on an island - That would allow us (and everyone else) to get a productive nation set up before any warfare begins and the longer we can delay fighting, the better off we'd be. If everyone is island bound where caravels are needed to reach your neighbor, then we'd be able to build Siphai long after everyone else's UU has lost it's value.

As for luxuries, they are usually my priority target. The less gold spent on keeping the populace happy, the more that can be spent on research.

It seems another lake may exist N of the wheat. In that case, NE of wheat might be a good spot.

It may be hard to see from the pictures, but if you look in game, it seems very likely that the tile NE of the wheat is water.

Proposed Orders for Turn 38

1. If the tile to the North of the wheat is salty (probably), then the new city will be founded to the West of the wheat.
2. Scymitar completes warrior, begins Granary.

Also, lost-civ is responsible for the next city name. Since he has been inactive, I propose we skip over him (if he returns he can name the next city) which means Nobody is up. Greybeard comes after Nobody.

I suggest PM'ing Nobody, he's active on the forum pretty often, but he might not check our forums often.

I shall name my city Taiaha. Following the tradtion of naming citys after swords. The Taiaha isnt strictly speaking a sword, but a sharp wooden staff used by maori warriors.

Can see them holding it here

http://www.srichinmoycentre.org/Members/barnaby_mcbryde/images/te_wero.jpg

Great! Thanks, Nobody.

I propose that we settle Taiaha where the settler is now.

I'm actually hoping for an island and everyone else is also on an island - That would allow us (and everyone else) to get a productive nation set up before any warfare begins and the longer we can delay fighting, the better off we'd be. If everyone is island bound where caravels are needed to reach your neighbor, then we'd be able to build Siphai long after everyone else's UU has lost it's value.

As for luxuries, they are usually my priority target. The less gold spent on keeping the populace happy, the more that can be spent on research.

I think this is going to be balanced, based on last game's map, so probably everyone else has 2 luxuries. Plus, with the teams and prep and everything else put into a game like this, it's stupid to lose because you didn't have iron or something random. Being a small map, there might be "coast bridges" IOW, a few coast tiles that touch from one island to the next, allowing safe passage, or maybe only 2 or 3 sea or ocean seperate the islands, allowing for a quick dash across, certainly enough for a contact.

Good point on UUs, the MW and GS are great for early conquest and Endiku's are just kind of there. The Korean UU is just strange, so I think we're safe in assuming we have the best UU. The only problem is, this is civ, and the RNG rules over all, and I'd rather have more weaker units (like the regular cavs) than less better units (like ours). You can build 10 cavs to 8 Siphai,
which means they enemy will have more, unless of course we out build them. I still think we're on the better end of the deal, just wanted to point that out.

***Is the settler settling west of the wheat or nw of it on the coast?

Edit: nevermind, His Sultanic Majesty, Chamnix, just answered my last question.

Just curious, but is the granary in scimitar a placeholder? It doesn't seem to have sufficient food to justify a granary. With those mineable hills it's more a candidate for a barracks and then units.

Here is something I was playing around with – it is partly in response to Marsden’s comment about being on the coast (get comments like that in earlier ;)!), but partly just because I think we need something like this.

This is one potential settlement plan showing cities (the larger dots) and tiles worked by each city (smaller dots). I’m not necessarily recommending we settle on these locations (although we could). I’m also definitely not saying we will be working these exact tiles – it will depend on how best to micromanage to get to good shield numbers. This simply shows that based on this potential plan each city will have 12 tiles to work. Also of note (with all the mountains it isn’t obvious) is the fact that each city will have enough food to support 12 citizens.

What does this have to do with Marsden’s comment? Simply that Taiaha doesn’t necessarily have to work coastal tiles, so not having it on the coast doesn’t hurt us (and having it able to reach the flood plains helps us short term).

I think our Bean Counter should continue to look at something like this as we plan future settlements in the west. Although one other thing to note is that we will not be able to keep 12 people happy in cities as we move away from our core without prohibitive luxury spending, but it is tough to know exactly how many we can support. Maybe we can try for 2 rings of 12 before dropping off.

http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/4197/settlementpb4.th.jpg (http://img236.imageshack.us/my.php?image=settlementpb4.jpg)

Comments?

Just curious, but is the granary in scimitar a placeholder? It doesn't seem to have sufficient food to justify a granary. With those mineable hills it's more a candidate for a barracks and then units.

It is not a placeholder - our Bean Counter ordered a granary there.

Conceptually, I agree with you. It is not a high food area, and its long-term destiny will be to produce units. However, right now we don’t need units, and apparently we may not for some time. A barracks will be costing us gpt and doing nothing. A granary will cost us as well, but it will provide some food, even if Scymitar is not an ideal granary town.

Of course it could still be changed, but let’s please discuss things timely and make decisions that we will stick with :old:. The conversation about a granary started one week ago on post 23 of this thread. Although we can switch without losing shields, I do try to plan worker turns relatively far in advance based on what I think we are building. If we change what we are building, quite possibly the workers should have done something differently.

We also need to decide our next research project fairly soon – we will complete Alphabet on turn 43, and we cannot painlessly switch research projects if we pick the wrong one.

We also need to decide our next research project fairly soon – we will complete Alphabet on turn 43, and we cannot painlessly switch research projects if we pick the wrong one.

Oh mighty Sultan, :bowdown:
For that purpose, could you please give us a screenshot of the Science Advisor screen with the next turn. I have to admit that I don't have in mind what we already researched :blush:

:lol:

Well, we have Bronze Working and Masonry (starting techs), Warrior Code, Pottery, The Wheel, and we are finishing up Alphabet.

The choices are Iron Working, Mathematics, Writing, Horseback Riding, or Ceremonial Burial.

Research choices

Ceremonial Burial: Cheapest, aside from that why now
Horseback Riding: Dead end tech and we don't plan on building horses and upgrade
Writing: We'll need this eventually to get to libraries and this might be the time - Also necessary to get to Republic which if not mistaken is our government goal
Mathematics: Leads to Currency (Markets), but not sure we need one yet
Iron Working: It would be very nice to know if we have iron, but aside from that why now

From that list I'm pushing Writing as my first choice and Iron Working second

Research choices

Horseback Riding: Dead end tech and we don't plan on building horses and upgrade


:eek: Are our Sipahi supposed to walk? They are not going to be happy about that...

Quote:
Originally Posted by denyd
Research choices

Horseback Riding: Dead end tech and we don't plan on building horses and upgrade

Are our Sipahi supposed to walk? They are not going to be happy about that...

For 160g per upgrade from horsemen (it might even be more), they're going to have to be trained to walk before we put them on horses. If we research to writing and then either philosophy (maybe get lucky with the bonus) or literature to build libraries to speed research, we'll get some of the early techs like ceremonial burial & horseback riding down to 4 turn research.

I'd like to trade for it, but Writing seems to be the logical choice, with Math next, Iron and Horseback next and CB last place(of current choices not path.)

Calis, of course, we will get HBR, we just don't need it in a hurry, yet, maybe.

I was asking about being one tile from the coast because having water in the fat X without being able to have a harbor is not optimal, but then it doesn't need to use the water tiles as you stated. And I like calling Chamnix His Sultanic Majesty, if it isn't a problem, just ripping off the Stones, sort of.

On another not important note: What are Sipahi supposed to be exactly? They look like Knights in full plate with six shooters to me. Is that what everyone else sees?

When exactly are barbs able to ride horses? When the first civ discovers HBR, or at a specific time?

Barbarian horsemen appear once the first tribe discovers HBR (whether or not there are any horses anywhere on the continent, go figure)

As an FYI Barbarian Galleys appear when the first tribe discovers Map Making

Just wanted you all to know that I haven't disappeared.

I just finished finals and need some time to relax and give my brain a break (trying not to think very hard).

I'll probably be ready to digest what has been discussed so far and give my input later tonight.

For 160g per upgrade from horsemen (it might even be more)

It is 210 gold to upgrade a horseman to Sipahi :eek:. Leo's will definitely be worth pursuing this game.

As an FYI Barbarian Galleys appear when the first tribe discovers Map Making

I seem to have a vague recollection of Gyathaar determining that barbarian galleys could appear with Writing :crazyeye: even though it makes no sense, but :dunno:.

For research, I'm torn between Writing and Mathematics. Writing leads to Republic, Map Making and Literature which are all important to us, but Mathematics is our best shot at having something with trade value. I'm not sure anyone else would have even bothered to research Masonry yet, but I am reasonably certain at least 2 teams will have Writing soon if not already.

Trying to think ahead, what will we research next? For either Writing or Mathematics, we are probably looking at about 9 turns after Alphabet. We certainly will not have met anyone from our exploration in that time based on our current plans - our only chance of meeting someone that soon will be from their curraghs sailing to us. If we do Mathematics, then we are betting on being able to trade for Writing which I guess leaves us doing Currency next if we haven't met anyone (followed by Iron Working and Construction?) all more for trade value than anything else.

If we do Writing next, then what? Literature, Map Making, and the Republic path are all useful to us, but they also all run the risk of duplicating someone else's efforts. There is no chance of getting to Philosophy first.

I'm babbling again without reaching a conclusion - one of my specialties from last game ;). As much as I hate giving up workers, maybe we should consider changing Georgetown to curragh first, then build a worker after that :dunno:. Our next town could also be on the coast and build curragh first. I'll go check to see what tiles etc. we would be working/improving to determine the cost of delaying the worker...

OK, I’m back, and I’ve convinced myself that Georgetown should be building a curragh first – let’s see if I can convince everyone else…

Assuming we are building a curragh and a worker in some order as our first 2 builds, our choices seem to be:

Worker – turn 43
Curragh – turn 52

Or

Curragh – turn 45
Worker – turn 49

If we build worker first, we gain:

6 worker-turns of work. In the short-term, that worker was slated to road the gems. The gems will be worth roughly 1 gpt over that span (they are worth 0.5 gpt now, but will be increasing to 1-2 gpt as our towns get to size 2). So, in the short run, we gain approximately 6 gold. In the long-run, we will gain 6 worker-turns – I don’t know exactly how to put a value on that.

If we build curragh first, we gain:


7 turns of exploration – this could mean we make contact 7 turns earlier.
Approximately 3 gold from letting Scymitar be at size 2 longer.
3 turns of production on our next project from Georgetown (probably 6 shields).

I’m not one to underestimate the worth of worker-turns – they are incredibly valuable, but in this situation, I think the curragh first may be better.

Of course, somebody could point out that the actual question was what to research next... :crazyeye:

3 gold vs. 6 shields and 7 turns of exploration seems to be an easy choice.

The difficult part is that it is 3 gold plus 6 worker-turns vs. 6 shields and 7 turns of exploration.

6 worker-turns is enough to move to a tile, irrigate it, and road it (for example). You could think of this as 1 fpt + 1 gpt for the rest of the game :eek: since we will always be one tile behind if we build the curragh first. It won’t be quite that much since there will be many turns that the worker is improving a tile that won’t be worked every turn or not for a while, or the gold will be corrupt, or the worker is just moving to a different part of the map or something, but don’t underestimate how important the worker-turns are :old:.

If it wasn't and island(?) then the worker turns would tip in the worker's favor, but if we are trying to save gold trading for writing, then the curragh needs the potential gold spent on writing added to his side of the scale, which makes the curragh a better choice. If there were a chance that we aren't on an island, then that would be less.

Actually, looking at the minimap and world map, I think this world looks like no matter who is looking at it, there home is in the center and the other four teams are around it. Kind of like this.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j61/dac18643/abstractmap.jpg

We will have a new settler next turn. I like the spot 3 east of Baldric for this settler - it is on the river, it can work the wheat while Taiaha is not using it, it has several BGs around, and it can build a second curragh to travel counterclockwise around our island.

Okay I'm back from my little "vacation from thinking." Here's what I think...

Georgetown - Curragh first, then Worker. The thing that tipped it for me was the 3 turns of production on the next project. Question for Chamnix: What does the scenario look like if we want 1 Curragh and 2 Workers? I'd be willing to be we'd gain a few of those worker turns back on the second worker.

Research - Mathematics. On an island, we're not in a huge hurry to get some of the other techs up and running (HBR). Instead we have a chance to guess at what other teams are doing and try to do the opposite in order to get maximum trade value out of our research. That means Math now, Iron Working and Construction next. Trade for Writing as soon as possible - assuming we can work out a trade.

Taiaha - Worker build is fine. What does it look like if we use Taiaha as a worker pump?

New Settler - 3 E of Baldric sounds good. I'll PM the next person on the list which is Greybeard.

Georgetown - Curragh first, then Worker. The thing that tipped it for me was the 3 turns of production on the next project. Question for Chamnix: What does the scenario look like if we want 1 Curragh and 2 Workers? I'd be willing to be we'd gain a few of those worker turns back on the second worker.

Very good point - it stands to reason that if we go curragh-worker-worker then the second worker will be 3 turns earlier than if we go worker-curragh-worker thanks to the extra turns of production. Of course, then our town is smaller again, and we may lose some gold back :crazyeye:, but the important point about getting some of the very valuable worker-turns is spot-on.

Taiaha - Worker build is fine. What does it look like if we use Taiaha as a worker pump?

Eventually, it will work its way up to 4-turn workers, but it will take some time to get there while it grows. We're probably looking at workers on turns 47, 54, 59 and then every 4 turns, or something like that.

When my turn to name a city comes up I will name it Claymore.

Research - Mathematics. On an island, we're not in a huge hurry to get some of the other techs up and running (HBR). Instead we have a chance to guess at what other teams are doing and try to do the opposite in order to get maximum trade value out of our research. That means Math now, Iron Working and Construction next. Trade for Writing as soon as possible - assuming we can work out a trade.

Since SoZ is 300 shields and no ivory, should we consider building it?

When my turn to name a city comes up I will name it Claymore.

That's a great name:goodjob:

Basically I'd say additional troops are always good to have, but in case that oceans are seperating our continents, there are two points against it:

1. Wouldn't the Ancients Cavs be obsolete when we are able to reach our opponents
2. Suicide (ocean crossing) ships are good for making contact, but for troop transport??

As Commander in Chief I would agree to you without thinking, but the rest in me says, no not really...

There would be other wonders, I'd prefer like the Pyramids, The Great Lighthouse, The Collossus,...

Everything is worth considering, but on balance I don't think the Statue of Zeus is our best bet. I don't think contact will require ocean crossing (mainly because I don't think Rik would do that to us), but I don't see us attacking anyone before our Ancient Cavalry are obsolete. They would be good to defend our island, but that is probably overkill, and I agree with Calis that there are better builds.

Seeing the way the turns fly around in this game, let's try to stay ahead of the curve on discussions.

First, is everyone OK with our Bean Counter's opinion on Mathematics next? I don't think he intended to cut off debate when he said that, but we will have to make a decision and live with it in 2 turns.

Second, we will continue to spit out settlers every 4 turns, so we have to keep settlement discussions going. For our next settler, I see 3 main choices:

1. 3 SE of Baldric - a city will definitely be going here at some point, we can settle it fast (short walking distance), and it is probably our highest remaining commerce location short-term. Downside - it doesn't have any particular perks to offer like the other 2, and it will slightly increase corruption in Georgetown and Claymore (we shouldn't lose any shields, but we might lose a coin or two).

2. Somewhere by the gems - we have enough information to decide where we are going to settle down there, and it will provide gems. Downside - the gems will take some time to connect, so short-term this city won't provide much of anything. In addition, if we wait a bit to settle there, the settler may have more of a road to use to get there.

3. Somewhere to the west/northwest of Baldric - there may be some good locations there, but we don't know exactly where. Settling there sooner means we can start a prebuild for our Forbidden Palace sooner since it should almost certainly go in that direction, but we don't have enough information to make a real decision on where.

My views on upcoming city builds:

Baldric - 4-turn settlers ad infinitum.
Scymitar - the granary will be another 10-12 turns, then probably 3 warriors and 2 workers every 10 turns operating at 5 spt.
Georgetown - curragh-worker-worker-we'll see.
Taiaha - nothing but workers.
Claymore - curragh-worker-worker?

Potential #1 - warrior-worker-curragh?
Potential #2 - 10 turn workers until improved
Potential #3 - Forbidden Palace or worker-FP or warrior-worker-FP?

Two curraghs seems to be enough, and we'll only need some warriors and a lot of workers and settlers after that. Could some of the other cities build settlers every now and then or is it more profitable to build just workers there?

I'm good with Math, w/ or w/o Zeus.

I suppose it's too much to hope for, but if we send the next NW and pop that hut by founding, maybe we'll get writing? I know it's unrealistic, but possible, and we are going to build there anyway.

As for by the near gems, it's probably worth it to have a worker roading it even before the settler arrives, how long will it take to road a mountain, is it 5 or 7 turns, I used to know industrious for PTW, but Conquests confuses me. If the road is finished, the settler might be able to settle faster.

On another subject, if we all get 2 luxuries, I'm happy we got wines and gems, as they are two of the best bonus yeilding lux. Gems +4 trade Wine +1 food. No other lux gives a food bonus. Of course Rik might have given the others more cows, or maybe the wines are to help use balance out against the 3 agricultural civs.

I agree with Dutchfire on the curragh build count and with Chamnix that on researching Mathematics. Writing should be next if we haven't met anyone by then and followed by either Literature or Map Making depending on the lay of the land.

Speaking of lay of the land, I still think our number 1 priority at the moment should be to determine if we are all alone on an island. The yes/no answer to that question is critical to virtually everyone of our decisions over the next 30-50 turns. After that, getting as many productive cities as possible on the map as soon as possible is next. For that we've got Baldric pumping out settlers and the rest of the empire to contribute workers & warriors for MP duty. Number 3 on my to do list is make sure we get our road network connected to as many luxuries as possible as soon as possible. Right now we can get to size 3 without MP and size 5 with MP and not need the luxury slider and being able to keep our research maximized will keep those tech rolling in.

Could some of the other cities build settlers every now and then or is it more profitable to build just workers there?

The only city that seems to have the shield count to make it worthwhile to build settlers is Scymitar - we could build 3 warriors and a settler in 10 turns instead of 3 warriors and 2 workers. The other towns we are probably best off just peeling off workers as their population gets too high.

Right now, we have 4 cities and 1 settler and only 3 workers. Since we will be building 1 settler every 4 turns, it will be a while before we even have 1 worker per city, so I think we are better off sticking with workers until that is corrected.

I suppose it's too much to hope for, but if we send the next NW and pop that hut by founding, maybe we'll get writing? I know it's unrealistic, but possible, and we are going to build there anyway.

I assume we will pop the nearer hut by settling fairly soon. I don't know the exact formula, but in my experience the tech popped is very heavily weighted in favor of the cheapest tech. Since Ceremonial Burial, Horseback Riding, and Iron Working are all cheaper than Writing, I think our chances of getting Writing are negligible and probably not worth sending a settler on a long walk just yet.

Incidentally, that brings up an interesting point - if convenient, it would be best to pop the huts with settlers the turn after we finish a tech. For example, we could pop the western hut with a settler right after we finish Mathematics - that way we could set research to Ceremonial Burial guaranteeing that if we get a tech, then we get a more expensive one. Regardless of the popping outcome, we then set research back to what we actually want to research. It should not necessarily dictate our settlement strategy, but it is a consideration.

how long will it take to road a mountain, is it 5 or 7 turns,

6 turns :p.

Here is an example of what I was talking about regarding roading the gems.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j61/dac18643/gemroad.jpg

the 2 red arrows are roads and the purple blob is the city site. If the worker roads before the settler is finished, if finished the roads can save the settler 1 or 2 turns walking.

What are your current thoughts regarding settlement? At the risk of seeming indecisive about worker moves, it occurred to me that if we are settling 3 SE of Baldric in the near future, then dutchfire should turn back around and mine the oasis before moving further away.

I think we can now plan on the next settler heading to the W/NW of Baldric, to be timed with Bond's arrival to provide protection and uncover the fog. It will require us to make a quick decision once the settler arrives, but we can handle that. I'm sure there has to be some nice tiles up that way and I'd like to see us start to get a pre-build on the forbidden palace (if the location seems right) as that has serious long-term rewards.

After that, either the gems or the tile 3 SE of Baldric - probably the latter. So to summarize, I think dutchfire can probably continue as planned. Send a worker yet to be completed to mine the oasis.

Hmm... looking again, it will be a while before we have another worker completed down there (turn 49), and I hoped the first worker would road to the gems. I think we need to mine the oasis sooner anyway. Details coming in the Sultanic thread.

Thanks for the quick response, even though it turns out I think we have to mine the oasis regardless :salute:.

Here is an example of what I was talking about regarding roading the gems.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j61/dac18643/gemroad.jpg

the 2 red arrows are roads and the purple blob is the city site. If the worker roads before the settler is finished, if finished the roads can save the settler 1 or 2 turns walking.

I would actually move the city one to the south west since we will get more expansion as a result since the cities will get the extra expansion due to the boreders bieng so close.

I prefer 1 SE - We get to use the BG & there's still room for another city S of the Horse

I would actually move the city one to the south west since we will get more expansion as a result since the cities will get the extra expansion due to the boreders bieng so close.

I prefer 1 SE - We get to use the BG & there's still room for another city S of the Horse

I was using a location picked by either gbno1fan or chamnix, and it was more for illustration of what I meant by roading to facillitate settlement than to pick an actual site.

Are we going for small cities close together or spaced out enough to reach size 12?

Proposed Orders for Turn 45:

~Baldric completes Settler, starts Settler.
~Georgetown completes curragh, starts worker.
~Settler out of Baldric heads ???

I'm thinking the settler can go to the mountain on this turn, then N of the mountain (we want to make sure we keep it near Bond to keep it safe). I'd like to settle somewhere to the N/NW of Baldric.

What are other opinions?

What about the tile NE of the wine, which lies 3 tiles NW of Baldric? The settler could eliminate the jungle. We will see more of the terrain next turn when Bond is approaching and the settler climbs onto the mountain.

NE of the wine might be good - on the river is good, and clearing jungle is good. The downside is that might be a little too close if we want all our core towns to reach size 12 - depending on terrain, north of the wines may work out better.

As Calis said, we will know more after next turn.

I haven't moved the settler yet. Here is the picture:

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/4976/settlerqx2.th.jpg (http://img155.imageshack.us/my.php?image=settlerqx2.jpg)

Those are 2 barbarian warriors. I'll leave the game running overnight if necessary.

There is still no report of a barb camp from our military advisor :hmm:.

Curious that we've got tundra north of jungle. Sounds like we'll need to get some troopers up N to clean up the riff-raff

Some notes before I crash for the night:

Moving the settler to the mountain will make the barbarian move SE.

If we move the settler NW-NW, then we don't get the view, but the barbarians might not approach (or they might anyway).

If we want to settle NW of the mountain, then we can beat the barbarians there, and just let the barbs have a couple coins, but I still think that spot is too close to Baldric - it will make it awkward to find 12 tiles per city.

There appears to be another plains wine NW-NW of the mountains.

The wine on grass is a real food bonus - it can be irrigated for 3 fpt in despotism. The wine on plains essentially turns it into a BG tile (with extra gold), so I don't mind settling on a plains wine if that is the best location.

Right now I'd be leaning toward moving the settler NW-NW to the forest and look to settle 2 NW of the mountain on the plains wine, but I'll wait for other opinions.

I agree that settling NW - NW of the mountain is a good spot, regardless of wine.

What about taking one of the MPs of Baldric to protect the settler? Losses in coins? There may be a barb camp we have to get rid of. And only one warrior micht easily get lost against some barb warriors.

But if you say there's no report of a barb camp maybe those 2 were put there when the map was created!?

Right now I'd be leaning toward moving the settler NW-NW to the forest and look to settle 2 NW of the mountain on the plains wine, but I'll wait for other opinions.

Would the jungle NW of the mountain be too close, because I thought that's where we were going?


What about taking one of the MPs of Baldric to protect the settler? Losses in coins? There may be a barb camp we have to get rid of. And only one warrior micht easily get lost against some barb warriors.

But if you say there's no report of a barb camp maybe those 2 were put there when the map was created!?


If bond moves SW, wouldn't that distract the barbarians, or do they seek out settlers?

I don't think they started there because wouldn't they have shown up first time through? There probably is an encampment in there somewhere, but how can we clear it? Would the barbs start to wander and destroy the huts?

I know this isn't our official settlement plan, but I prepared this earlier as a sample. Based on our city locations so far, if we found a city NW of the mountain, it becomes tough to find 12 useful tiles for it to work.

http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/4197/settlementpb4.th.jpg (http://img236.imageshack.us/my.php?image=settlementpb4.jpg)

My understanding of the barbarians is that they seek out things on a line to their NW or SE. If there is something on that axis, they move in that general direction using the best defensive terrain. If there is nothing on that axis, they alternate moving in a random direction and fortifying.

I think the fact that our military advisor says nothing about camps means either:

1. There is a camp on our island, but there is another civ's city closer to it than any of ours :hmm:.
2. The barbarians were placed on our island in the beginning, and there is no camp. They could have been placed on the northwest corner and gradually moved closer.
3. Someone else popped a goody hut on our island and got barbs.

As far as I know barbs can't destroy huts.

As far as I know barbs can't destroy huts.


I've had barbs walk onto a hut that was next to me and it just disappeared.

To keep our Bean Counter in the micromanagement loop, I have concluded that it is clearly better to have Taiaha work the flood plains and a BG this turn.

I had posted in the Commander in Chief's thread that I wasn't sure - I was considering having Taiaha work the flood plains and the wheat instead, but I don't think that would provide us with more food long term. It would only help Taiaha if it worked the wheat again next turn, and doing so would delay growth in Claymore by as much as it helped in Taiaha. Considering that approach would also cost us a worker-turn, cost us luxuries in Claymore, and Claymore can't get a second uncorrupted shield yet, but Taiaha can, there really is no decision to make - working flood plains + BG in Taiaha and wheat in Claymore wins in every way.

What are thoughts on our Forbidden Palace? Obviously, it should go somewhere west/northwest of Baldric to be somewhat central to our empire. I think the plan was to build it with the town founded by our current settler. Looking at the terrain, that town is not likely to be a very good producer, but it will be a very high-income town. Somewhere by the goody huts by the lake would be a better producer, but maybe we want to emphasize commerce anyway. This game could be more about commerce than production given the apparent archipelago.

Do you mean the lake by the hut 4 W of Baldric? That's where I thought the FP was going. Are we going to start it as soon as possible or later to get some units first?

I liked that area also. 1 S of the lake would also pop the hut. That site would could become a real shield powerhouse once we get out of despotism.

BTW: Did Greekguy fall off the earth?

That's the lake I mean. It certainly looks like the best production site for the FP. Based on the most recent settlement plan from gbno1fan, it will be a few turns before we settle there (I think he said next would be 3 SE of Baldric, then probably by the gems to the south). I think if we want our Forbidden Palace there, then we might be able to start it right when we settle there (depending mainly on if we have workers to improve its surroundings).

If we consider building it to the NW of Baldric where our current settler is heading for high income, then I think we should build a worker there first to improve the ground as it grows, then start the Forbidden Palace.

I always like to start it ASAP, but it is gbno1fan's call.

Not to put any pressure on you, gbno1fan, but it looks like we can pretty much dot map our entire island now - that way we will know how many settlers we need and can figure out a settlement order as well.

Wow that turn came around quick! I've been trying to stay relatively quiet because it seems that whenever I say something, the discussion tends to stop - and the discussion lately has been great!

That said, I'll try putting together a dot map when I'm at work tomorrow afternoon. Then we can start discussing better alternatives (as I'm sure I will miss quite a few good spots - like usual ;))

In the meantime, here are my orders for this turn:

~Settle current location.
~Worker from Taiaha is good.
~Calis is next up for naming, I believe.

I mentioned that name earlier on. As it is my turn to name a town, here it comes again. I think it fits perfectly into our Ottoman Empire: Yatagan

When I was thinking about a swords name I had a look at the Diablo2 website, as there are loads of swords names and it was a coincident that the Ataghan caught my eyes. When looking up where the name comes from I found this:

encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/ataghan (http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/ataghan)

Settlement Plan Version 1a

Note: The following settlement plan is intended to guide our discussion of future settlement of our landmass. In no way is it meant to be a final decision - please rip it to shreds and help determine the best locations for our cities! As the discussion progresses, the plan will be updated to reflect changes.

Key: Blue square = Basic already settled city boundaries
Red square = Basic boundaries of proposed locations
Yellow "Thumbtacks" = Palace and proposed location of Forbidden Palace

http://dailydigitalphotos.com/ben/saber/settlement-1a.jpg

Initial Proposed Settlement Order:

1. Site X
2. Site T
3. Site W
4. Site V

As mentioned earlier we maybe want one coastal city to be a factory for naval units. Maybe V could be such a place. But then S should be moved one tile to the NW to give V more space to grow...

Proposed Orders for Turn 49:

~Baldric completes settler, starts settler
~New settler heads to site X. Classical_Hero is up for naming.
~Georgetown completes worker, starts worker - any other ideas? Should we build a warrior?

@Calis - V could certainly be a naval factory if that's what we want. S could be moved 1 tile NW.

I'll spend some time with the settlement plan hopefully later today - my first impression was that it looked very good :thumbsup:. The only thing that stuck out to me was that Q should definitely be moved northwest - no point in settling on grass if we can settle on tundra instead.

We also might want to consider moving T north or northeast and put another city between S and T on the desert since desert is useless unless we actually settle on it. It may make our spacing too tight - we'll have to look at it more, but I wanted to throw the thought out there.

Some additional thoughts - I'm not sure yet about any of these comments, but they are things I was thinking about, so I figured I'd write them down before I forgot them to get opinions.

P - could be moved northeast or east. P is basically a junk town that will not grow much anyway. Moving it to distance 7 from Baldric instead of 6 (applies to northeast only, not east) decreases rank corruption in V, N, and and U (and increases it in P, but so what?).

O - possibly move east to settle on tundra instead of grass, especially if P moves east.

I - if O moves, then I could move to give C a little more room. Downside - it either crowds J or moves to a BG, but as long as we are going to let it grow to size 7, we get that shield back.

A/F - neither of these towns is likely ever to have culture built, so we could consider putting another town on the corner of the island by them.

D - will this town grow above size 7? If not, then consider moving it to the hill to the east to avoid taking up a food tile. C can then be moved northeast.

Are we set on the idea of T as a Forbidden Palace city? T has the advantage of production, but Yatagan and N are both more central if we can find the shields to build the FP in a reasonable time.

Other thoughts?

EDIT - moving P east does not move it to distance 7. Maybe northwest?

From my point of view T has the most shield potential of any of our cities and I'd rather have 1 50spt city than give 5 other cities an extra 5 shields.

I was thinking that nearly everyone out cities would get a library and market and maybe a barracks. More science & commerce will get us to Siphai sooner. Being alone on an island is an advantage to those with a MA UU as it's likely that by the time it'll be possible to deliver the AA UU in significant numbers they'll be facing superior defenders. Our UU can be carried by galleons and deposited in stacks of 4 (or 8 or 12) next to an opponents city and soon we'll have a beachhead for expansion to take them out.

As I understand it, very few games of this sort end under peaceful conditions, so we should expect this game to be no different than the majority.

@Chamnix - all of your ideas are good. I would like to have some data to justify the positioning of the FP and you're the best at these calculations. Can you quantify the locations?

@Denyd - I think we will have to look at each city individually to determine where our libraries, markets, and barracks are going. It all comes down to a cost-benefit analysis. If a market or library only adds 1 or even 2 gold or beaker to our total, it may not be worth the shields for the investment (since 1gpt must be expensed to maintain the building). Also, if we never intend to build units out of a city, we should seriously consider saving the 1gpt for the barracks.

That said, you are totally right that our UU will be more useful than an AA unit. One thing is for sure - there will not be significant warfare in this game (other than possible naval warfare?) until at least the late middle ages. I suspect this is one of the main reasons why Rik made the map island based - the first game proved that early war creates an advantage for the other teams. It will be very interesting to see how the game plays out with 5 strong teams in the middle ages!

From my point of view T has the most shield potential of any of our cities and I'd rather have 1 50spt city than give 5 other cities an extra 5 shields.

Understood, and I agree, but my question is does T need the Forbidden Palace in it to be a powerhouse? I really get frustrated with corruption calcs - I know all the formulas, and ordinarily I'm pretty good at arithmetic, but somehow I can never quite get the corruption percentages right. There must be some rounding in there somewhere, but I can't figure out where...

Anyway, I can't imagine that T will be more than 25% corrupt (once we are in Republic and have a Forbidden Palace somewhere) based on being rank 6 and distance 4 from the palace. If the Forbidden Palace is there, then my understanding is that it is limited to 20% corruption. I'm thinking T probably will gross about 21-22 spt for most of the game (post-despotism but pre-factories). We're talking about the difference between maybe 16 spt net or 17 spt net :dunno:.

I guess I'm trying to say that T's powerhouse status is pretty much the same wherever the FP goes, but in other towns it could make a real difference.

@Chamnix - I would like to have some data to justify the positioning of the FP and you're the best at these calculations. Can you quantify the locations?

I'll try to put something together before the next settler pops, but I'm not sure how yet.

Qualitatively, I feel certain that of the 3 spots, T will have the least effect on corruption/waste overall. However, our northeast is garbage, so a reduction in corruption there isn't worth as much as a reduction in corruption in our southwest.

If we could rush the Forbidden Palace somewhere, I think N is almost certainly the best spot, but building it there by hand would be very slow going.

I'll see if I can quantify it over the weekend...

@Chamnix - Take your time on those calculations. At this point I favor N as well - are those forests we could chop or jungle to be cleared?

What do you think of my proposed settlement order for the next few settlers:

1. X
2. T
3. W
4. V

@Denyd - On a side note, you may be interested in reading about the final turn of the last MTDG: This thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=190181) contains a record of MIA's attack on Dnut to make landfall and win by domination on a single turn. We used a mix of transports, marines, bombers, and cavalry to accomplish this. So there is a significant chance that this game will make it to the Industrial Age.

@Chamnix - Take your time on those calculations. At this point I favor N as well - are those forests we could chop or jungle to be cleared?

I'm pretty sure those are forests (but of course chopping can't speed our Forbidden Palace :nono:).

What do you think of my proposed settlement order for the next few settlers:

1. X
2. T
3. W
4. V

X certainly seems reasonable - it should be 2 spt so it can build a warrior or 2 to keep our Commander happy. Comparing T vs. W, I think it may depend in part on where we want our Forbidden Palace :crazyeye: (which is why I mentioned I'd try to come up with something before the next settler).

If we want the FP in T, then we should probably settle there soon so it can start growing. If we are not building the FP in T, then I think W might take priority.

I think settling W before T gets us gems 2 turns earlier. You can make the argument that W can wait until the road is completed through the mountain so the settler can walk faster, but I think you can make the same argument about T - once greekguy chops Scymitar's forest and roads that tile, he can road the tile to the west of that to speed T's settler along his way.

That's a wow - if PBEM 3 ever gets started again, I'll have to make sure that I'm ready for Chamnix if (when) he comes for me. On that topic, it looks like GreekGuy has been MIA since last Saturday. I'd like to give him the weekend to check in. If he's still gone we might need to advertise for a replacement.

I really don't think that greekguy just disappeard. He'll be back...

Proposed Orders for Turn 49:

~Georgetown completes worker, starts worker - any other ideas? Should we build a warrior?

I'm not one to argue with a worker build, but after looking at the save, I think a warrior would be better. I'm not overreacting to the barbarians, but I do think it might be better not to let Georgetown go back to size 1, and the warrior will be in time to give us an MP in Scymitar as it grows to size 3 saving us some luxury spending.

I would also like to see another warrior. I agree that we need more workers but with barb horsemen showing up we are going to need more protection for them.

by the way, what can we deduce from the fact that horsemen are showing up? Someone has researched HBR?

I agree that Georgetown should build a warrior.

The barb horseman is rather distressful. How much gold are we going to lose when he raids Yatagan?

Just 1-2 - we only have 10 gold and 6 cities, but I'm not sure how the rounding works (although someone could check the save now and find out). Considering we will get 25 gold back when we eventually clear the barb camp, I don't really consider this bad luck at all :).

EDIT - he took 1 gold.

Do i need to give a name for my city?

Yes .

Our decision time for our next research project is coming around very quickly. The choices: Iron Working, Currency, Writing, Horseback Riding, and Ceremonial Burial.

If we want to get off this island, I vote for Writing then Map Making - If not then either Iron Working or Currency - Writing also opens the path to Phil/CoL & our desired government Republic

I think the best choices are Currency and Writing. Currency if we are gambling on the trading game, Writing because it leads to the most useful techs.

I don't care too much about getting off the island exactly - we have 20+ more spots to settle on our rock before we need to look overseas. Galleys may help with contacts, but it would be a while before they could catch up to our curraghs anyway. If we go Writing then I would be thinking Republic ASAP (although Republic ASAP may mean Literature first :crazyeye:).

To me, it's really a question of if we want to research the "useful" techs or research the techs that we expect others not to have.

writing should be our next tech. we're on an island by ourselves, so that means we need galleys to reach the other civs. the quicker we meet other civs, the quicker we can start trade and sign treaties, which is one of the most important aspects of this game.

We already have curraghs, what do we need galleys for?

As a scientific civ and with being seperated on an island, we maybe should get Libraries ASAP so I propose writing now...

It is interesting that Writing seems to be the majority's choice now - we researched Mathematics pretty much being aware that we wouldn't have another contact by the time we finished it. If we were going to research Writing ourselves, we should have already done it and not bothered with Mathematics.

That's not to say we can't switch to Writing now - if Writing was the right call before instead of Mathematics, it could be better to switch paths than to compound our mistake by going for Currency. I guess I'm just saying I'd like to see these discussions happen earlier with more long-term thinking.

I really think we should go for Currency. I think the long-term thinking has already been established that we will be researching techs that we don't expect the other teams to have while building curraghs to quickly meet and trade with them. That means Writing is out of the question for now.

I'll concentrate on my military tasks. You guys determine what to research...

fine, let's research currency then. just remember diplomacy is pretty much the most important factor in this game (behind worker usage/mming), so we need to establish contacts preferably before the AD years.

Bean Counter:

Next research project?
Scymitar completes granary, starts ?

Will there be official turn orders coming?

I agree that we definitely need contacts. The question is will Map Making help us get them? We have curraghs now - if we went straight to Map Making, it would probably be about 16 turns before we had it. At that point we could build 3-move galleys, but our curraghs would already have a 32 tile head start. It's possible that we need 3 moves to cross safely to another civ, but we just don't know.

As I said, if we are going for Writing, I think it should probably be to head for Republic, not Map Making. If other civs get to Republic long before us, we could have some problems catching up.

That being said, I think we kind of made our decision a while ago. If we were planning on researching Writing ourselves, why did we bother with Mathematics first? I guess we didn't really think that one through given the uncertainty now, so what do we do from here?

How long would currency take us?

I'd guess about 13 turns.

I'd guess about 13 turns.

I'd have expected far more.

So let's do this and what you start producing in Scymitar doesn't matter that much this turn. Just start a prebuild.

We had so much delay already...

The game says 15 turns right now. If we clear the barb camp (after we find the barb camp :rolleyes:), then we can keep running maximum science. I think growth can shave about 2 turns off.

I thought it mattered in Scymitar because I thought if we were building something for 10 shields, then wealth first would be appropriate, but looking at it again, I'm pretty sure we can get 10 shields in 2 turns.

I delayed posting this because I didn't want to distract from the research talk, but here are some estimates of corruption in various cities depending on the Forbidden Palace location.

http://img477.imageshack.us/img477/3742/fpcorruptionhl5.th.jpg (http://img477.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fpcorruptionhl5.jpg)

I'll email the spreadsheet to our gmail account and add some comments in a bit...

First, I think that is sufficient data to support the building of the FP at site N. Great work, Chamnix. Thanks for doing that!

Second, here are some proposed orders for Turn 53:
~Baldric completes settler, starts settler.
~Georgetown completes warrior, starts warrior.
~Claymore completes warrior, starts worker.
~Settler from Baldric heads to site W so we can get gems hooked up.

First, the disclaimer - I never actually get corruption calculations correct. I am always off by a few percentage points, but they should be close enough, and I don't have any reason to believe that my errors would be biased in favor of any particular FP site.

Second, the footnotes - for all calculations, I assumed we were in Republic, and all cities were connected to our capital. I also used OCN = 20 and maxD=50 for the corruption formulas. I'm not really sure about either of these numbers, but again, they should be close, and I don't think changing them changes the comparison among sites.

Third, the conclusions - I come to a different conclusion than gbno1fan. N is the best location, but the difference among the sites is not great, whereas the difference between having a Forbidden Palace somewhere and not having one is huge. I think it would take too long to build the FP in N, and I'd be inclined to pick one of the other 2 spots.

Back to the what to research topic. My reason for going Writing->Map Making is to get boats that can carry a settler. It might be quite useful to settle another island, particularly if it has a luxury or resource that we might like. Also we might be able to grab a toe-hold on another tribes island before all of the space is gone.

Since this is my first game of this type is trading really all that common. I would think that the last thing you'd want to do is trade a tech such as writing to an opponent that would give them access to a valuable tech like map making or literature. If I had a monopoly on writing, I'd probably wait until 1-2 other tribes had it before trading it and would insist on at least 2 techs.

@Denyd~ While settling on another island would be nice, it would be extremely difficult to defend such a foothold. Think of it this way - how long would we allow another team to have a city on our landmass? I certainly would push for its removal as soon as possible...

As far as trading, you can expect to see a lot of diplomacy and trades. The key will be making sure that we all feel that the deals are in our benefit in some way (we may see trades where we are on the weak side beaker-wise but gain some standing diplomatically with the other team). The key to remember here is that if we do not trade, there may be 4 teams trading with each other and leaving us behind.

A couple settlement thoughts:

When I was comparing whether we wanted to settle T or W first, I mentioned that whichever one was second would have a road to it to speed the settler, so there was no difference from that standpoint. However, that is only true if greekguy roads 2 tiles consecutively without mining the tile he is on. Since we now know that tile is a BG, we definitely want a mine there sooner rather than later.

If we assume greekguy is going to mine before building 2 roads, then our choices are W on turn 57 and T on 60, or T on 56 and W on 60 (if greekguy builds the roads without mining then W on 57 and T on 59 is possible).

The advantage of W first is that we get gems 3 turns earlier. However, it looks like 2 of those 3 turns will have no luxury spending regardless. Therefore, settling W first is probably worth about 2-3 gold (1 for every town that is size 3+ on turn 59). Settling T first (assuming greekguy mines) is worth 2 food plus 1 shield plus 1-2 gold.

I don't know if this changes where you want the settler to head. I think T is better first unless we can afford to have greekguy not mine yet. I will look to see if we need that mine/how much delaying it will cost us... but in the meantime, does anyone have any comments about gbno1fan's settlement plan (or comments about my comments about gbno1fan's settlement plan). In particular, are we even sure where T is going, or might we want it further north to squeeze another town in the desert? We have complete information to reach a decision on where every one of our towns should go - let's finalize it.

Least opinionated team ever...

OK, I think greekguy can road both of those without mining yet. I'm not really sure because it depends on future builds, but I'm comfortable enough sending the settler to the gems especially considering the uncertainty(?) regarding where T will end up.

I've come to the conclusion that I think T should stay where gbno1fan placed it. Moving it north or northeast will make it unable to reach a couple mountains - especially the gem mountain would be nice to have in a fairly uncorrupt town.

However, I still think we should found a town on the desert even if it impinges on S or T's fat cross. There is no way S or T can work all those tiles anyway (not enough food), so an additional town to work a couple irrigated grasses and a couple mountains/deserts at size 6 seems called for - probably on the desert due west of gems mountain.



Second, here are some proposed orders for Turn 53:
~Baldric completes settler, starts settler.
~Georgetown completes warrior, starts warrior.
~Claymore completes warrior, starts worker.
~Settler from Baldric heads to site W so we can get gems hooked up.

If Scymitar sticks to a 3 warrior + 2 worker regimen every 10 turns, I think it will produce almost enough warriors on its own (we are only producing 3 settlers every 12 turns). Add in the one coming from classical_hero's town (can we have a name for this one yet, c_h?), and we will have 3 more warriors in the next 4 turns. I wouldn't mind seeing another worker come from Georgetown on growth to size 3 instead of a warrior, then Georgetown and Claymore can consider:

1. Spare warriors (if it still looks like we don't have enough).
2. Spare curraghs (if it looks like we need suicide vessels).
3. Wonder - certainly not wonders in both towns, but one of them may be spared for a wonder. Colossus? Prebuild for Great Lighthouse (depending on what our curraghs find)? Pyramids (probably too expensive for those towns)?

Least opinionated team ever...

1. Spare warriors (if it still looks like we don't have enough).
2. Spare curraghs (if it looks like we need suicide vessels).
3. Wonder - certainly not wonders in both towns, but one of them may be spared for a wonder. Colossus? Prebuild for Great Lighthouse (depending on what our curraghs find)? Pyramids (probably too expensive for those towns)?

1. Well, although I should not say that due to my position, I think we will have enough warriors soon. As Chamnix already mentioned earlier, our outer cities will become less and less important, so it doesn't matter, if they are ransacked for a coin or two.

2. Concerning the curraghs we can decide soon depending on what SNS Nemo will uncover in the upcoming turn.

3. I still think that the Great Lighthouse is worth the effort. The one more movement. For galleys one more move means 33% speed bonus over all the other teams, as none of them is Seafaring. And there will be nothing better than galleys for quite a loooong time. There also may be some bonus islands which we can reach by this (highly speculative, I know).

Least opinionated team ever...


That's not a nice one...:(

Just trying to goad people into posting - I know we have a lot of people checking in often, but we need people expressing ideas and opinions and discussing things in advance to play up to our team's potential.

I wasn't trying to insult anyone - lots of people would say being opinionated is not necessarily always a good characteristic :).

Least opinionated team ever...

Okay, here it goes :)

1. Spare warriors (if it still looks like we don't have enough).
2. Spare curraghs (if it looks like we need suicide vessels).
3. Wonder - certainly not wonders in both towns, but one of them may be spared for a wonder. Colossus? Prebuild for Great Lighthouse (depending on what our curraghs find)? Pyramids (probably too expensive for those towns)?

1) I don't think additional warriors will be good for much except MP duty. Our warriors will easily be beaten by barbarian horsemen.
2) If we need them, they're usefull, but I doubt we'll need more than 2 or 3.
3) How expensive are those wonders? How many turns will they take? Colossus is only usefull in an uncorrupted town, TGL is usefull if we can't find any other teams easily. I doubt we'll be able to get the Pyramids with these smaller towns, as there's a decent chance that other teams are building them.

One other thing that warriors are good for is fog-busting to prevent barb camps from forming. I'm not sure we want to do that - maybe we want barb camps to form so we can clear them for extra cash or unit training, but I thought I'd mention it.

Colossus - 200 shields. Either of Claymore or Georgetown is uncorrupt enough to make the Colossus useful.

Great Lighthouse - 300 shields.

Pyramids - 400 shields.

I don't know when other teams would attempt the Pyramids. Last game I think we were about midway through the Middle Ages before they were built.

So you're looking for opinions, well I've never been shy about submitting mine so here goes.

First, since we've decided to research currency instead of writing in hopes of being able to trade for writing, we've kind of given up on the only AA wonder that might have some value (not to denigrate ToA or Pyramids, but they are too expensive), that being the Great Lighthouse. After we complete currency, what's next if we have yet to meet someone?

As for unit builds, I don't see the need for much beyond a couple of barbarian suppression units (horsemen) and some riot control police for the larger towns. Once we get the island filled in we'll have eliminated the barbarian threat. BTW: What's the plan once all of the planned city sites have been filled in?

We need to either get a lot of research done soon or meet another tribe that will deal techs (preferably more than one). We need ASAP: Iron Working to find if we have any of the strategic metal. Writing so that we can get to Literature (libraries), Map Making (get resource outposts off the island) and get up the path to Republic (get out of despotism).

Briefly back to the wonder building. We might pick a city getting 4-5 spt and start a palace as a pre-build for one of the larger wonders such as the Pyramids, GLib or ToA. We might be able to snag one of those while no one was looking at little cost to ourselves. At worst case, it'll be able to grab a MA wonder such as Sun Tzu or KT.

First, since we've decided to research currency instead of writing in hopes of being able to trade for writing, we've kind of given up on the only AA wonder that might have some value (not to denigrate ToA or Pyramids, but they are too expensive), that being the Great Lighthouse.

Not really. Currency plus Writing plus Map Making shouldn't be more than 30 turns. We could start the Great Lighthouse now, and we would have Map Making comfortably before we had 300 shields if we wanted to build that.

After we complete currency, what's next if we have yet to meet someone?

My opinion? If we haven't met someone by then, then we have probably confirmed that it is not possible to meet someone safely. I think at that point we admit our gambit failed and start Writing, but we will need to decide together if it comes to that.

BTW: What's the plan once all of the planned city sites have been filled in?

You're talking about 80 turns in the future. I like advance planning, but that's a little too far to predict :).

Is that sea to the 3 NE 1 E of the Nemo? Or is it an artifact of compression?

Do we want a "barb zone" in the tundra sector? By that, I mean an area purposely left unclaimed for barbarians to spawn in. They can help with troop promotions and extra cash.

Sorry I haven't posted last few days. I'd think it's worth it to risk a curragh off toward that sea, if it is sea.

Are we going to go for horseback riding next? It would help us combat our barb situation.

I think a future wonder that might be worth trying for would be Leo's to upgrade Siphai, I hope there's saltpeter :scared:

Other good ones might be the research wonders like Copernicus, Newtons, and one of my favorite it Smith's, it pays for all harbors, markets, banks, stock exchanges, and airports, plus commercial ports too, not sure about the last one, but that's quite useful if a strong economy is a favored choice.

Is that sea to the 3 NE 1 E of the Nemo? Or is it an artifact of compression?


I apologize for that - after I moved Nemo the second time, I realized I should have taken a screenshot after only moving him once. The tiles 3NE, NE-NE-E, and NE-NE-N are all sea. There definitely appears to be coast up there on the other side of the sea, but I don't remember which tile(s) anymore :blush:. He could reach coast if he survives 1 turn in the ocean (say, by moving N-E next, then we could see for sure which tiles are coast).

Personally, I would prefer to confirm that there is no safe passage before we send any boats to Davy Jones, but once we have confirmation, then that looks like a good place to explore.

Personally, I would prefer to confirm that there is no safe passage before we send any boats to Davy Jones, but once we have confirmation, then that looks like a good place to explore.

:agree:

Everything else would be stupid in my opinion. We can build some additional curraghs, but must not use this one for such a risky attempt.

@Chamnix: In the next turn you can try it again ;)

And I would strongly recommend to start a prebuild for a coastal wonder real soon.

I think Scymitar can handle warrior duty - we can even let it grow to size 5 if we wanted to (with 2 MPs and once gems are hooked up) instead of interrupting with workers. It will still only build 2-turn warriors, but it will provide more beakers - we just have to see if we need workers or beakers more.

But that's not what I started to say - even if we build workers from Scymitar periodically, I think it will provide enough warriors on its own. I think our coastal towns should build workers (when population allows) or curraghs (instead of warriors). I think we should get a curragh to attempt to cross to the coast northeast of Nemo sooner rather than later - we really want contact before Currency completes.

I would change Georgetown from warrior to worker, then either curragh or wonder, and classical_hero from warrior to curragh.

Since Chamnix is always pushing for planning ahead of time, and I am constantly forgetting what was decided on for upcoming builds in our various cities, I have added a list of cities to the first post of this thread, which will mention the upcoming build plans. In addition, I will periodically post the list so we can discuss any changes. Once the new term starts, I hope to post some CivAssist updates more frequently as they will become more and more useful now that we have a lot of cities. Anyway, here is the list:

~Baldric: Settler factory indefinitely
~Scymitar: 3 warrior + 2 worker factory indefinitely
~Georgetown: Worker, then Wonder or curragh
~Taiaha: Worker factory indefinitely
~Claymore: Worker, Curragh or Wonder
~classical_hero town: warrior, then worker?
~Yatagan: ???

Obviously we need to decide what is coming out of Yatagan next.

Also, it looks like I face an overwhelming opposition to the warrior build in Georgetown (thank you all for questioning it, and speaking up - this is the benefit of a team atmosphere!). Therefore, we can change the build to a worker.

Depending on the situation with the sea near the SNS Nemo, I'd like to put a Great Lighthouse pre-build in either Georgetown or Claymore unless we need suicide curraghs.

Finally, I will update the settlement plan soon with Chamnix's suggested changes. Does anybody else have something to say about the plan?

EDIT: One more thing, Chamnix gets to name the next city.

Since Chamnix is always pushing for planning ahead of time

I try ;)

Also, it looks like I face an overwhelming opposition to the warrior build in Georgetown (thank you all for questioning it, and speaking up - this is the benefit of a team atmosphere!). Therefore, we can change the build to a worker.

~classical_hero town: warrior, then worker?


Any chance I can talk you into a curragh instead of a warrior from classical_hero also :p?

Obviously we need to decide what is coming out of Yatagan next.

If the Forbidden Palace is going there, then I would start it right away. If not, then I would keep building workers (or maybe a granary) since it has a food bonus.

EDIT: One more thing, Chamnix gets to name the next city.

:woohoo:

Sorry about the lateness of my reply, but name my city Katana

Thanks, classical.

Getting back to the FP discussion, can we determine approximately what turn we could finish the FP in the following scenarios:

1. Start the FP in Yatagan as soon as the current build is completed.
2. Settle site N next and immediately start the FP build.
3. Settle site T next and immediately start the FP build.

Once we have approximate estimates of how many turns will be different, we can begin to forecast the costs of each scenario using the corruption calculations that Chamnix did. That will allow us to select the optimal location.

Re: Katana - a curragh build is fine with me if we have a use for one - we're not sure if we will need suicide ships yet and I'd hate to have a curragh just following the path of another.

The problem with waiting is that by the time we know that we need suicide ships, it will be a little late to start building them. If there is no safe crossing, we will find that out in about 6 turns. It is about 6 turns from Katana to the potential crossing point even after the curragh is built. Worst case, we have an extra curragh that will eventually be upgraded to a galley or disbanded for shields (which is the same fate a warrior built there would have except for the galley part).

This is just speculation, but I suspect there is no safe crossing. The pace of the game seems to imply that there hasn't been a lot of contact yet (if any). Certainly nobody has found us, and we were probably one of the last teams to get boats in the water since we researched 3 techs before Alphabet.

Chamnix now said something I mentioned earlier. We have to face the possibility that there is no safe way to our opponents. With that in mind I again press the building of the GLH and to get galleys soon. With this combination we'd be able to safely reach the coast we saw last turn!

We should build an additional curragh now for suicide purpose, as I think it's worth the risk, but the above mentioned is my mid-term idea...

Would it be an idea to let some spare curraghs stay on the coast in areas like these so that when another teams sends a curragh along their coast, the curraghs can see eachother? Or wouldn't that be possible?

I'm in favor of another curragh. There always seems to be some point where you have to decide on one of two directions to explore and it would be nice to have that second curragh trailing behind to take the alternate path.

As for the GLH, I agree that if we want it now would be a good time to start a pre-build. Most of our coastal cities are somewhat shield poor, so even going for Colossus (200 sheilds) is going to be a 40-50 turn proposition with another 20-25 turns to get to GLH from there.

I agree on the Lighthouse, but we need a firm contingecy for the shields if someone beat us to it by 2 turns. Do we want to settle for a colossus if still available? could we put it towards pyramids? What else might be worth the shields? A lame wonder (like the oracle) or loss of shields is what hurts when going for a wonder. :sad:

Would it be an idea to let some spare curraghs stay on the coast in areas like these so that when another teams sends a curragh along their coast, the curraghs can see eachother? Or wouldn't that be possible?

We could move it forth and back every turn and with some luck we meet someone on the coastal tile. But that would take very much luck I fear...

Would it be possible for them to see us on thier turn and move away and we don't see them on ours?

Getting back to the FP discussion, can we determine approximately what turn we could finish the FP in the following scenarios:

1. Start the FP in Yatagan as soon as the current build is completed.
2. Settle site N next and immediately start the FP build.
3. Settle site T next and immediately start the FP build.

Once we have approximate estimates of how many turns will be different, we can begin to forecast the costs of each scenario using the corruption calculations that Chamnix did. That will allow us to select the optimal location.


There is a lot of guesswork going on here, but here goes…

Yatagan – worker completes on turn 58 and irrigates the grassland wines.
Approximately 30% corrupt in despotism.

58-66 – Size 1, 1 spt.
67-73 – Size 2, 3 spt gross, 2 spt net.
74-80 – Size 3, 4 spt gross, 3 spt net.
81-87 – Size 4, 5 spt gross, 3-4? spt net.
88+ - Size 5 (maximum without additional luxury spending) – 9 spt gross, 6-7? spt net

200 shields about turn 106-111

N – settled on turn 62.
Approximately 45% corrupt in despotism (once connected to Baldric)

62-71 – Size 1, 3 spt gross, 1-2 spt net.
72-81 – Size 2, 5 spt gross, 2-3 spt net.
82-91 – Size 3, 6 spt gross, 3 spt net.
92-101 – Size 4, 7 spt gross, 3-4 spt net
102+ - Size 5, 10 spt gross, 5? spt net

200 shields about turn 118-123

T – settled on turn 59.
Approximately 33% corrupt in despotism.

59-68 – Size 1, 3 spt gross, 2 spt net.
69-78 – Size 2, 5 spt gross, 3? spt net.
79-88 – Size 3, 6 spt gross, 4 spt net.
89-98 – Size 4, 7 spt gross, 5 spt net.
99+ - Size 5, 10 spt gorss, 7? spt net.

200 shields about turn 108.

I’m assuming tiles are improved before growth (realistic for Yatagan and T, maybe for N)

Would it be an idea to let some spare curraghs stay on the coast in areas like these so that when another teams sends a curragh along their coast, the curraghs can see eachother? Or wouldn't that be possible?

We can’t actually see coast yet.

Would it be possible for them to see us on thier turn and move away and we don't see them on ours?

Possible yes, but rather silly – contact is worth as much to other teams as it is to us.

Are our build plans changing with the loss of a citizen to disease in Georgetown? We were planning on changing to a worker.

What about a curragh next in Georgetown?

Just to be clear - IIRC Claymore, Katana, and Georgetown will all reach 10 shields on turn 57, so we have to set them for what we really want on turn 56. Claymore is already size 2, and Georgetown will grow to size 2 if we want workers, Katana will still be size 1.

My opinion - I would prefer not to build warriors. Our Commander in Chief is already running out of important tasks for warriors to do ;).

I do see a need both for curraghs and workers. For curraghs, I would like to send a curragh (or more if necessary) to the apparent coast to the northeast. Reason would lead me to believe that on a man-made "fair" map, there can't be only 1 crossing point. If we only have 1 crossing point, then others should only have 1, and it isn't possible for all 5 civs to have only 1 crossing each. Therefore, there is another place where a suicide curragh would be useful, and the sooner we get a boat there the better.

Of course, I always see a need for more workers.

I do see a need both for curraghs and workers. For curraghs, I would like to send a curragh (or more if necessary) to the apparent coast to the northeast. Reason would lead me to believe that on a man-made "fair" map, there can't be only 1 crossing point. If we only have 1 crossing point, then others should only have 1, and it isn't possible for all 5 civs to have only 1 crossing each. Therefore, there is another place where a suicide curragh would be useful, and the sooner we get a boat there the better.

Actually, it is possible by having 1 island in the middle and each team only having 1 connection with that island.

You are correct. Very clever - I was thinking only in terms of occupied landmasses.

suicide curraghs are worth the investment IMO, as well as the Great Lighthouse. I think the wonder and boats should be priorities for our coastal cities for the foreseeable future.

My opinion - I would prefer not to build warriors. Our Commander in Chief is already running out of important tasks for warriors to do ;).


I should be more careful about what I say :D

But actually I just need a small taskforce for barb camps popping somewhere on our island. So one warrior now and then should be enough.

We should concentrate on our economy and waterways. So here are the priorities: without priority order

1. ships (preferably galleys)
2. TGL
3. workers

Forbidden Palace discussion

Assumptions:
- There is a significant amount of speculation involved here. However, it may be the most quantified argument for the Forbidden Palace that we can get.

- I am using Chamnix's prediction of completion turns in Yatagan (turn 106), N (turn 123), and T (108). I have chosen the earliest turn for Yatagan and the latest turn for N because I am interested in comparing the two sites to determine how much we would lose by choosing N over Yatagan or T.

- I am using Chamnix's estimates of corruption in the proposed settlement locations before and after completion of the FP.

- We are about 50 turns from potential completion in Yatagan. It is reasonable to expect we will have at least 10 more cities by that time. As a result, I have selected 10 potential settlement locations, listed later in this post. I will also try to accomodate the possibility of additional settlement.

Potential Settlement sites in question, with "No FP" corruption listed (in no particular order):
- V, 39%
- S, 57%
- T, 27%
- N, 42%
- O, 52%
- U, 45%
- J, 83%
- P, 34%
- Q, 62%
- L, 76%
- Yatagan, 12%

First, looking at Yatagan as the FP build, here is the new corruption total and the change from building the FP. In addition, I have estimated the maximum number of shields and gold we would gain by completing the FP by taking the total amount of corruption and dividing it by 10(I am a little unsure of how to do this estimation, so please correct it if it significantly affects the overall result of the exercise):
- V, 32% - 7% change
- S, 45% - 12%
- T, 22% - 5%
- N, 28% - 14%
- O, 33% - 19%
- U, 36% - 9%
- J, 53% - 30%
- P, 22% - 12%
- Q, 43% - 19%
- L, 55% - 21%
- Yatagan, 12% - 13%
- Total change in corruption: 151%
So the total per turn would be 15s, 15g. Over 17 turns, this would equal 255s, 255g. We can probably add another 25% above that figure to take into account any additional settlement, so the final figure for Yatagan is 319.

Now, looking at site T:
- V, 28% - 11%
- S, 37% - 20%
- T, 14% - 13%
- N, 30% - 12%
- O, 41% - 11%
- U, 36% - 9%
- J, 61% - 22%
- P, 28% - 6%
- Q, 49% - 13%
- L, 49% - 27%
- Yatagan, 20% - 5%
- Total change in corruption: 149%
The total per turn would be 15s, 15g. Over 15 turns this is 225s, 225g. We can probably add another 25% over that figure to take into account any additional settlement. So the final figure for site T is 281.

Now let's look at the advantages of settling site N and try to estimate the total number of gold and shields gained over the rest of the game. The first MTDG lasted a total of 208 turns. Since there is one additional team, we can estimate that the game will last until at least turn 225. Therefore, there will be about 100 turns with the FP in N. We can also estimate that we will have settled all of the locations on the settlement plan by turn 175. Therefore, there will be about 50 turns where site N would have a total net gain in corruption of 40% - using the calculations I have used above, this nets to about 4s and 4g per turn for 50 turns, or 200s and 200g. In addition, we can estimate that we would gain half as much over the first 50 turns during the period, so the total benefit for building at site N is 300s and 300g.

In summary:
Yatagan = 319s, 319g
Site T = 281s, 281g
Site N = 300s, 300g.

Conclusion: Yatagan is the optimal location for the Forbidden Palace. However, for each turn the game lasts longer than 225, Site N gains us 4s and 4g per turn. So if we expect the game to last more than 230 turns, site N may be best.

Wow, now I know how people feel when I post :crazyeye: :p.

2 quick comments for now:

I have estimated the maximum number of shields and gold we would gain by completing the FP by taking the total amount of corruption and dividing it by 10(I am a little unsure of how to do this estimation, so please correct it if it significantly affects the overall result of the exercise)

That would definitely be a maximum. I think that is assuming that all our towns are producing 10 gpt and 10 spt gross which is way too high for the early portion of the game. However, I think that whatever number you divide by is constant throughout your methodology and affects all city locations equally, so changing it may change your absolute numbers but not the relative results.

Second comment - if I understand it correctly, you are concluding Yatagan provides 319s and 319g by turn 123. From 123-175 or so, N gains an average of 2 spt and 2 gpt. From 175 until the end of the game, N gains 4 spt and 4 gpt. Even if the game goes 300 turns, I think getting the shields/gold earlier is worth much more than the eventual benefits N would provide.

Of course, now I have to look to see if I agree with all your numbers...

However, I think that whatever number you divide by is constant throughout your methodology and affects all city locations equally, so changing it may change your absolute numbers but not the relative results.
Totally agree here. The end result would be the same no matter how we calculate the benefits.

Even if the game goes 300 turns, I think getting the shields/gold earlier is worth much more than the eventual benefits N would provide.
I also agree here (this is the basic time value of money argument - the primary foundation of my career/major/field). Not to mention the fact that 4 shields and gold per turn at turn 250 is not worth anything near what it is at turn 110.

For the record (if I wasn't clear when I posted the analysis), I am fully in support now of constructing the FP in Yatagan.

Back to the rest of the builds... here is the list...

~Baldric: Settler factory indefinitely
~Scymitar: 3 warrior + 2 worker factory indefinitely
~Georgetown: Curragh, Curragh or Wonder
~Taiaha: Worker factory indefinitely
~Claymore: Worker, Curragh or Wonder
~Katana: Curragh, then ???
~Yatagan: Worker, then Forbidden Palace
~Chamnix's town: Worker?

I changed Georgetown to a curragh. We can start to pump out curraghs to be used - I have been convinced of their usefulness.

I'd like us to start comparing locations for The Great Lighthouse. I think we're all in agreement that we want to try and build this wonder, and the sooner we start the pre-build, the more likely it is that we will get it.

I believe the best location is either Georgetown or Claymore. Once we decide, we can probably make the other city a curragh factory.

Finally, what do we want to build out of Chamnix's town (have a name for us?)?

Back to the rest of the builds... here is the list...

~Baldric: Settler factory indefinitely
~Scymitar: 3 warrior + 2 worker factory indefinitely
~Georgetown: Curragh, Curragh or Wonder
~Taiaha: Worker factory indefinitely
~Claymore: Worker, Curragh or Wonder
~Katana: warrior, then worker?
~Yatagan: Worker, then Forbidden Palace
~Chamnix's town: Worker?

I would still prefer a curragh from Katana to make a NE attempt before we get Currency :deadhorse:.

I'd like us to start comparing locations for The Great Lighthouse. I think we're all in agreement that we want to try and build this wonder, and the sooner we start the pre-build, the more likely it is that we will get it.

I believe the best location is either Georgetown or Claymore. Once we decide, we can probably make the other city a curragh factory.

Comparing Georgetown and Claymore - they each have 3 BGs (or equivalent). Georgetown should be faster growing thanks to the flood plains to get up to size sooner (if it's people can stay healthy :rolleyes:).

I'm not completely sold on the Great Lighthouse, but I have a feeling I'm the only one. That being said, I think the Colossus would be a good build regardless, and by the time we have 200 shields, we will know better whether the Great Lighthouse is worthwhile.

Hypothetically, if by the time we have 200 shields, we already have all contacts, and we are separated from other civs by ocean (not just sea), then I don't think +1 naval movement is worth 300 shields considering we are not likely to attack overseas until the second half of the Middle Ages.

As far as contingencies, the Colossus is not bad, and I would consider either the Pyramids or the Great Library a very good consolation prize.

Finally, what do we want to build out of Chamnix's town (have a name for us?)?

No name yet. This will be our first second ring town. I would expect all second ring towns to build at least 1 worker first - the terrain needs improvement before we can really consider much else, and they will suffer significant corruption until either Republic or the Forbidden Palace is built.

I would still prefer a curragh from Katana to make a NE attempt before we get Currency
Right. I changed that in my mind but not elsewhere. Now it should be fixed.

I agree that the Colossus would be a great build. What if we tried to build 2 wonders simultaneously? Great Lighthouse (Pyramids or Great Library) in Georgetown and Colossus in Claymore? Leaving Katana to build the curraghs?

When I read through your analyses I can only ask for one thing: Please remind me never to vie for the job as Chief Bean Counter:faint:

On a completely different topic (I don't really want to change the subject, but I would like an answer to this as well), where are upcoming settlers going? I assume T is next, what then? I want to make sure workers are building roads in the right directions. I think you had mentioned V coming soon (although that one is going to be a pain to connect) - what are the next ones you are looking at?

When I read through your analyses I can only ask for one thing: Please remind me never to vie for the job as Chief Bean Counter

I too have no desire to hold down this job - It's way too much like work - :vomit: :run: :shake:

I will thank them for their dedication to solving these conundrums.

BTW: Just a technique that I've used in the past for high shield low food cities (my main production) centers is to have a couple of corrupt cities pop out a worker or 2 and join them to the unit / wonder producer to get it to full production sooner.

BTW: Just a technique that I've used in the past for high shield low food cities (my main production) centers is to have a couple of corrupt cities pop out a worker or 2 and join them to the unit / wonder producer to get it to full production sooner.

I don't know if we want to resort to that just yet (we don't really have many corrupt towns yet), but it is a good plan in general. I'm counting on doing that en masse later - towns like Scymitar would take forever to reach size 12 even with a granary. Sneak preview of what's to come - in Republic, once Baldric is done producing settlers, it can operate as a 1-turn worker factory to pump up the population fast in all our other cities.

On a completely different topic (I don't really want to change the subject, but I would like an answer to this as well), where are upcoming settlers going? I assume T is next, what then? I want to make sure workers are building roads in the right directions. I think you had mentioned V coming soon (although that one is going to be a pain to connect) - what are the next ones you are looking at?
I was thinking:
1. T
2. V (could you build a road from Chamnix's town to the SW of the lake?)
3. N
4. O
5. U

Admittedly, the plan is fuzzy after T - meaning I am open to changes if you think a different order is better. I don't really think these locations are much different from one another (before the FP is done at least), so it depends on worker tasks.

When I read through your analyses I can only ask for one thing: Please remind me never to vie for the job as Chief Bean Counter
Mental Note: To ensure that you will keep your job as Bean Counter, occassionally make a post with lots of numbers in it, even if it is jibberish...

Do we have a name for city T?

I just sent a note to Elear, who is next on the list, and we should hear back soon.

That's optimistic of you - Elear hasn't logged on to CFC in over a month :(.

Oh. Well in that case, I've also PMed Cyc.

When I read through your analyses I can only ask for one thing: Please remind me never to vie for the job as Chief Bean Counter:faint:

I also agree. I :salute: you and your work.

I hate to bring it back up, but the Staue of Zeus might be a good emergecy wonder if we find weve lost the good ones. It is too valuable, but if for nothing else, every AC created can be disbanded for 10 shields in any corrupt town we want, plus then we would not have to worr about barb sweeping troops, finally, even though they would be obselete they can be effective for counter attacking cavalry.

From the State of Empire Thread: Research – 277 beakers invested in Currency, due in 5 at 43 bpt (480 total needed).

Have we begun the discussion of what's next? (Writing I hope?)