First, I must explain a few things: I understand and recognize the presence of any Hungarian people on these forums. I must say that, although I am part-Hungarian by heritage, I have never lived in, least of all visited, Hungary, and cannot speak the language save for a few words or sentences here or there.

A Hungarian person in my class often mentions how many people overlook Hungary, even just in common knowlege. Hungarian history, not even detailed history, is most often found exclusively in obscure graduate school or college classes, and most schools (outside Central Europe, of course, and especially in the Americas) don't have a Hungarian langage/culture/history department.

Perhaps it is because Hungary has no "world wonder". Or perhaps it has been around for so long that historians do not bother to preach about its 1000-year-old history. No matter what theory you may take, it is hard to disbelieve the fact that Hungary has slipped through the sieve of common knowlege.

Due to recent events that I don't think I need to explain, some historians or non-Hungarians are beginning to doubt Hungary's status as a republic (much like Putin's not-so-democratic rule of Russia). I do not wish to impose upon you or take an opinion of any of these events; however, Hungary's declining economy (which will be even more so after the integration of the Euro in the near future) combined with a lack of understanding of both the country's culture and its language's reputation as an extremely difficult one makes it hard for so people to see through the veil of doubt and ignorance that surrounds the Central European country.

But what, my friend asks, can be done? It's quite sad, in my opinion, how not just Hungary is being overlooked. Well-known facts such as the rapid extinction of languages and cultures and the endangerment of more major ones (Romansch, Breton) will lead some, including myself, to see a monolingual, monocultural world in the future.

Do any of you have any opinions on this?

I think it's because (1) Hungary's period of greatness was before 1526, and (2) it's in Eastern Europe, where it was buried behind the Iron Curtain for many years. European history books written in Western Europe tended to act as if Eastern Europe (outside of Russia) didn't exist. Bohemia and Poland-Lithuania also tend to be undervalued.

sydhe makes a good point. Though I think Poland, and even the Czech Republic get more attention. I guess its also because there really isnt too many Hungarians (like 10 million?). Also for a large time they were part of the Austrian Empire.

You must watch The District (http://www.cine.hu/district/), one of the funniest films I've seen in recent years, which mocks (among other things) American ignorance of Hungary...

I never really realised Hungary had such a history until I did a bit of research on it after playing Mediaeval II: Total War. Before then I knew there was Austria-Hungary but never realised it was a large empire before that.

I think it's been forgotten because it's now a small Eastern European country. Europe has changed a lot due to the world wars.

i think part of the problem lies with few people knowing any famous hungarians. apart from franz liszt, bela lugosi, and ferenc puskas :worship: , hungary and it's history don't readily spring to mind as much as other countries. but that could be said of many east euro countries, as sydhe has pointed out. our loss.

i think part of the problem lies with few people knowing any famous hungarians. apart from franz liszt, bela lugosi, and ferenc puskas :worship: , hungary and it's history don't readily spring to mind as much as other countries. but that could be said of many east euro countries, as sydhe has pointed out. our loss.
You forgot László Bíró (inventor of the biro, or "ballpoint pen" to us American-English speakers).

But of course I agree with you. Many, many countries, not just in Eastern Europe, are losing touch with today's history books and everyday conversation. Perhaps, instead of simply giving out financial aid or (in more impoverished nations) food, wealthy countires such as the United States should commence programs to teach its citizens about these "forgotten countries" and make an attempt to integrate world culture (and not just French or, say, Spanish culture) into their school curriculums.

But I guess a vain celebrity trying to gain press coverage and a good reputation by adopting a baby from a third-world country may spotlight the country for a while.:rolleyes:

You forgot László Bíró (inventor of the biro, or "ballpoint pen" to us American-English speakers).

Sorry, but I have to disagree with you here. Laszlo Biro's patent was issued in 15 June, 1938, while John J Loud issued the first patent of a ballpoint pen on 30 October 1888, 50 years before that. Biro's model was just an improvement. :)

Sorry, but I have to disagree with you here. Laszlo Biro's patent was issued in 15 June, 1938, while John J Loud issued the first patent of a ballpoint pen on 30 October 1888, 50 years before that. Biro's model was just an improvement. :)
However, Mr. Biro was justly credited by inventing the biro for the previous model, patented by Mr. Loud, was drastically different and less efficient than Mr. Biro's. Although one could say Mr. Loud invented it, one must consider that Mr. Biro's version is easy to manufacture and use, thus being a more legitimate invention, as time has explained to us; perhaps this is why his name was bestowed upon the invention in common usage?

But petty details must be dismissed. Hungarian and other less-noticed countries have only a handful of famous persons, although almost every country has an equal amount of people that have, in some way, impacted our world today.

Hungary is a small and insignificant country.

That's just the truth!

i think part of the problem lies with few people knowing any famous hungarians. apart from franz liszt, bela lugosi, and ferenc puskas :worship: , hungary and it's history don't readily spring to mind as much as other countries. but that could be said of many east euro countries, as sydhe has pointed out. our loss.

And, of course, Zsa Zsa, Eva and Magda Gabor. Although I tend to think of kings such as St. Stephen, Louis the Great, John Hunyadi and Matthias Corvinus.

The problem with Hungary is that the more recent history is, the more people pay attention to it. And, in recent history, Hungary just hasn't been there in a particularly significant way.

Hungary (and the rest of the eastern european states) were only their own masters for about thirty years throughout the twentieth century ; the rest of the time they were, direclty or indirectly, the puppet of some of the bigger European fishes (Austria early on, but mostly Germany and Russia/USSR).

The same goes for the nineteenth century, which Hungary spent (in the simplified history most people deal with) as part of the Austrian empire (Austro-Hungarian, but again - the capital was in Austria, the ruling house was the Habsburgs, so its generally understood as Austrian), and Poland partitioned still.

Poland, and the rest of eastern Europe's time in the sun came in the medieval and early modern era, which is a very long time ago for most people.

The problem is reflected in what countries get a spot as civ's in Civ.

A problem is the attention span and depth of interest that the average Joe possesses.
People have grown accustomed to the superficial pieces of info quickly flashed before their eyes in commercials or even newsfeeds. Its over before it started and the everyday bombardment of advertising makes sure you mainly think about what to consume.
That divided between work or school and most people just don't have time to care.

I think it's because (1) Hungary's period of greatness was before 1526, and (2) it's in Eastern Europe, where it was buried behind the Iron Curtain for many years. European history books written in Western Europe tended to act as if Eastern Europe (outside of Russia) didn't exist. Bohemia and Poland-Lithuania also tend to be undervalued.

Not to mention Hungary got buried in the Ottoman Empire in 1526...

I think it's because (1) Hungary's period of greatness was before 1526, and (2) it's in Eastern Europe, where it was buried behind the Iron Curtain for many years. European history books written in Western Europe tended to act as if Eastern Europe (outside of Russia) didn't exist. Bohemia and Poland-Lithuania also tend to be undervalued.

Indeed. It is rather shameful that the colorful culture from this area is either repressed or forgotten.

Wasn't Elizabeth Bathory of hungarian ancestery/nationality?

you should be proud. ;) :)

How can it by Hungary so close to Greece and Turkey anyway?

Hungry, grease and turkey the animal

I've been twice to Budapest, and I find it's a nice city with some history in it.
For instance, the metro of Budapest is the oldest in continental Europe

I had heard of Saint Elizabeth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elisabeth_of_Hungary) of Hungary.

So I guess not all famous Hungarians are serial killers.

Wasn't Elizabeth Bathory of hungarian ancestery/nationality?
Yup, mrs Dracula from next door. :D

I was in Budapest once, in my opinion its nicer city even than Prague or Vienna...

I think that ignorance is also because their strange language and origin.

Probably that's because you live in Prague. ;) Honestly from all land cities (no access to sea) I found Wien to be the most beautiful city I've been to, and Prague second.

But yes, I agree the language and origin contributed to the lack of knowledge of the people. :)

Maybe. I have to admit that Prague has maybe most beautiful sight (this well known with charles bridge nad prague castle), Vienna has not this sight but is cleaner and without communist architectonic presents. But Budapest is different at all, I like it.

I am sure that Bucurest has also some nice places.

Whats the connection to Atilla and all those Huns?

Whats the connection to Atilla and all those Huns?

There is none, really. Only connection, if you can call it that, is that both the Huns and the Magyars migrated to Europe from central Asia.

I thought they were related tribes, that migrated in different times...?

I thought they were related tribes, that migrated in different times...?

I think there are some claims that this is true, but no evidence.

I don't know. It's anyway a subject full of propaganda for so many interests, that I might be very wrong (or get others annoyed at me for this). :) So I'll let someone who knows more than me to talk.

I believe this here thread discussed it thoroughly: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=140327

Vrylakas made nice posts as usual.

Ah, so what happened to the Huns anyway? Didn't Attila have a palace in Hungary or something too?

the huns just dissapeared. its one of those misterys of history. and no they didn't have a palace. although the conquered/bullied a lot of countries they never bothered to settle down. But there is a small village in france wich has hun orrigans. thus far the only place wich we know of where they settled down.
About the history of HU. even in midevil times HU was considered an "outcast" nation. It became more accepted after there defeat by the holy roman empire when they turned christian. I agree that the Hu are a forgotten country. Since I have a HU girlfriend I learned a lot more about them. She never passes on an oppertunity to teach me about them. :)

Hungarian girlfriend? I envy you! :groucho: I don't think I've seen any Hungarian girl under 30 who wasn't attractive. ;)

the huns just dissapeared. its one of those misterys of history. and no they didn't have a palace. although the conquered/bullied a lot of countries they never bothered to settle down. But there is a small village in france wich has hun orrigans. thus far the only place wich we know of where they settled down.
Ok, I'm just stupid, thanks! I know this group of people who went to Hungary, Austria, and the Czech Republic, and their tour guide spoke 7 languages- Hungarian was not one of them, according to him, he'd rather be shot in the foot than try and learn it. Sounds fun.

Oh yes, learning hungarian is reall fun. breaking your tongue over there pronouncations. I'm learning Hungarian, fortunatly they have the same sounds as my language but there language is only distantly related to one other languagethe finnish people. and there language is one of teh most difficult ones to learn. But my girlfriend says the same thing about my language. :)

Well Finnish has some 54 cases (kasus in Swedish, don't know if thats the correct translation) German has four, Polish/Russian have seven, Swedish has none/one.
How many cases does Hungarian have?

Hungarian girlfriend? I envy you! :groucho: I don't think I've seen any Hungarian girl under 30 who wasn't attractive. ;)

thnx. But there are ugly ones. Just go to hungary and youll find out.

Well Finnish has some 54 cases (kasus in Swedish, don't know if thats the correct translation) German has four, Polish/Russian have seven, Swedish has none/one.
How many cases does Hungarian have?

what are cases? I'm dutch so englis is not my native tongue.

Well its been a while since I studied any language and my brains are mush since I started working with volatile cancerous liquids but from what I remember:

In Swedish they Call the four German ones Nominativ Objekt, Ackusativ objekt, Dativ objekt, and I've forgotten what the forth one is called, damn those braincells!

Well its been a while since I studied any language and my brains are mush since I started working with volatile cancerous liquids but from what I remember:

In Swedish they Call the four German ones Nominativ Objekt, Ackusativ objekt, Dativ objekt, and I've forgotten what the forth one is called, damn those braincells!

I'm dutch not german!:mad: :mad:
Btw I suck at langueges. :) still have no idea what your trying to tell me. lol
it sounds familiar byut that is probably cause our languages are related.
nominativ=name/subject?
ackusative=sounds like acustic. or accusation. lol
dativ=time?

"I'm dutch not german! "

Well I do not know much at all about Dutch! Anyway german was one of the languages I mentioned, and it being one of Hollands greater neighbors i just assumed you would know something of it, had comparable things in Dutch grammar or understood the Swedish/Latin words I posted.;)

It is supposed, I belive, to have something to do how you bend words in senteces according to what that word is used for, describing/naming, describing time, blabla, I do not remember...

german grammar is very different from dutch. if fact dutch grammar is different from every other language in the world.
I had german and latin, but that was a very long time ago. I don't understand dutch grammar let alone foreign ones. :(

ps. I'm dutch not german was more meant as a joke. ;)

Well its been a while since I studied any language and my brains are mush since I started working with volatile cancerous liquids but from what I remember:

In Swedish they Call the four German ones Nominativ Objekt, Ackusativ objekt, Dativ objekt, and I've forgotten what the forth one is called, damn those braincells!

The fourth case is genitive, used for possession and for the objects of certain pronouns.

Well I suck at grammar as well, fortunately I have a girlfriend who studied linguistics at the university:) , unfortunately she is asleep.:sad:

All dough I did wake her up to ask here about the word Kasus, and she answered emediately! :D

Then I told her "This is exactly the kind of situation your teachers said they prepared you for, 'Learn it so well that you'll be able to answer it emediately when i wake you up in the middle of the night' they said". Fortunately she found it funny and let me live.... so I do not dare risking it again.:sad:

Thanks Sydhe!

who! pokurcz, your really brave waking your girlfriend up in the middle of the night. I bet she will get back at you one of these nights. ;) lol

thnx. But there are ugly ones. Just go to hungary and youll find out.

I've been to Hungary 3 times, and passed through it about 6 times (it's about the only route from Romania to the west, as well as my city is about the only route from anywhere to the Balkans, excluding ex-Yugoslavia). :)

Hi! anybody heard about Peace Treaty of Trianon?

If you not please read this: ."Trianon", the peace treaty which officially ended the First World War for Hungary, signed in Versailles in the Trianon Castle on the 4th of June, 1920, is one of the most catastrophic events in the history of the Hungarian Nation. With this „treaty”, the Allies or more commonly the 'Entente' implemented the decision by which Historic Hungary was dismembered. This is how, under the pretext of founding new nations, the largest minority group in Europe, the Hungarian minority, was created.
his decision, which was made without hearing Hungary's argument, forced 3.2 million Hungarians to live in other countries, suffering scorn and discrimination.
This decision was made in spite of the fact that almost all territories inhabited by Hungarians could have been left within the borders. The territories with the largest Hungarian minority are situated in a bloc just outside the present borders. Transylvania is the only exception, with communities that are farther from the borders and there are many areas still populated by pure, ethnic Hungarians.
The new borders, imposed by the treaty, had a "more far-reaching" effect than the dismemberment of the Hungarian nation: this decision sowed the seeds of the outbreak of the Second World War. It increased tension between Hungary and its 3 neighbours: Czechoslovakia, Romania, and the Serbian-Croatian-Slovenian Kingdom (Yugoslavia) to the bitter end. At the same time, this created an opportunity for Germany, led by Hitler, to take advantage of these conflicts of interests in order to use them for its own purposes.

That this devastating effect could have been predicted is proved by Premier Károly Huszár’s speech, January 1920: „What is waiting for us will decide not only the Hungarians' fate, but it will also mean the permanence of Europe's peace. A just peace will mean peace and safety for the European civilization, but an unjust one will be a newer suicidal attempt for Europe's peace.”
Certainly, these considerations were not taken into account at the decision-making. The main purpose was to fulfill the demands of the 3 previously mentioned neighbouring countries and, by this, to assure their long-standing Entente-friendly policy, which later proved to be unsuccessful. They also wanted to make the economic recovery of Hungary more difficult.

And we, HUNGARIANS saved Europe against the Turkish occupation.
The Noon bell
During the Siege of Nándorfehérvár (modern-day Belgrade) in 1456, Hungarian nobleman John Hunyadi defended the city against the onslaught of the Ottoman Sultan Mehmed II. During the siege, Pope Callixtus III ordered the bells of every church to be rung every day at noon, as a call for believers to pray for the defenders of the city. However, in many places, news of the victory arrived before the order, and the ringing of the church bells at noon thus transformed into a commemoration of the victory. The Pope didn't withdraw the order, and Catholic churches still ring the noon bell to this day.


From Wikipedia.

Will Hungarians ever get past this childish revisionism stage? I understand feeling sorry for your nation losing a war, but I don't understand why you have to think the earlier situation was justified in any way.


the decision by which Historic Hungary was dismembered.
"Historic Hungary"? You could say that in 1989, the "Historic Russia" was dismembered. Hungary was a country that managed to overpower most of its neighbors in the industrial age (except for Austria, obviously) and so it started conquering around. It was an oppressive regime, anti-orthodox and anti-minority.

This is how, under the pretext of founding new nations, the largest minority group in Europe, the Hungarian minority, was created.
No, sorry this is BS. Gypsies are the biggest minority in Europe, Jews were second, and Turks were third at the time.

Transylvania is the only exception, with communities that are farther from the borders and there are many areas still populated by pure, ethnic Hungarians.
Of course, you forgot to mention that those "pure Hungarians" (statement that BTW sounds like it's copied from a nazi book), the Szkelys you are talking about make up a grand total of 19% of the population of Transylvania.

The new borders, imposed by the treaty, had a "more far-reaching" effect than the dismemberment of the Hungarian nation: this decision sowed the seeds of the outbreak of the Second World War. It increased tension between Hungary and its 3 neighbours: Czechoslovakia, Romania, and the Serbian-Croatian-Slovenian Kingdom (Yugoslavia) to the bitter end. At the same time, this created an opportunity for Germany, led by Hitler, to take advantage of these conflicts of interests in order to use them for its own purposes.
We all now nazis in WW2 were evil. No need to repeat it for us.

That this devastating effect could have been predicted is proved by Premier Károly Huszár’s speech, January 1920: „What is waiting for us will decide not only the Hungarians' fate, but it will also mean the permanence of Europe's peace. A just peace will mean peace and safety for the European civilization, but an unjust one will be a newer suicidal attempt for Europe's peace.”
Certainly, these considerations were not taken into account at the decision-making. The main purpose was to fulfill the demands of the 3 previously mentioned neighbouring countries and, by this, to assure their long-standing Entente-friendly policy, which later proved to be unsuccessful. They also wanted to make the economic recovery of Hungary more difficult.

No, those countries just wanted freedom. There was no evil plot against Hungary - it was only a plan of liberation. Stop hiding facts at your will - should I point out how nobody who was not a Catholic or a Protestant was not allowed to have any access to jobs above the most basic ones? Or how the Romanians in Transylvania were not allowed to live inside the city walls, making them always the easiest victim of everything? The regime forced by the Austro-Hungarian kingdom was incredibly oppressive, and it's good that it ended. I do not blame any Hungarian today for anything that happened in the past, but I am disgusted by those who sympathize with those ideas.

And we, HUNGARIANS saved Europe against the Turkish occupation.
The Noon bell
During the Siege of Nándorfehérvár (modern-day Belgrade) in 1456, Hungarian nobleman John Hunyadi defended the city against the onslaught of the Ottoman Sultan Mehmed II. During the siege, Pope Callixtus III ordered the bells of every church to be rung every day at noon, as a call for believers to pray for the defenders of the city. However, in many places, news of the victory arrived before the order, and the ringing of the church bells at noon thus transformed into a commemoration of the victory. The Pope didn't withdraw the order, and Catholic churches still ring the noon bell to this day.


From Wikipedia.

Should I point out the number of times Serbia, Wallachia and Poland stopped the Ottomans? It was great that they defeated the Turks, but don't come saying you were the only ones that did. After all, Hungary was conquered by the Ottomans, while many other states weren't.

Oh man, Hungarians arguing history and national identity with Romanians?

*Grabs popcorn*

It's a show going on for more than 150 years. ;) Look, it's not that I have anything against Hungarians at all, personally, I have met so many and so many were my friends (or hot girls) that it would be really stupid to make any generalization. But what I really hate is trying to bend history in your favor. In other words, propaganda. :)

Edit: By the way, I will most likely not answer any future posts here for some time. :) I will be having 3 concerts, in Transylvania, starting with tomorrow and ending with Tuesday (first in Cluj, second in Alba Iulia and third in Bistrita - all three in Transylvania). I will probably answer in a week from now at the earliest...

http://www.trianon1920.hu/

First, I must explain a few things: I understand and recognize the presence of any Hungarian people on these forums. I must say that, although I am part-Hungarian by heritage, I have never lived in, least of all visited, Hungary, and cannot speak the language save for a few words or sentences here or there.

A Hungarian person in my class often mentions how many people overlook Hungary, even just in common knowlege. Hungarian history, not even detailed history, is most often found exclusively in obscure graduate school or college classes, and most schools (outside Central Europe, of course, and especially in the Americas) don't have a Hungarian langage/culture/history department.

Perhaps it is because Hungary has no "world wonder". Or perhaps it has been around for so long that historians do not bother to preach about its 1000-year-old history. No matter what theory you may take, it is hard to disbelieve the fact that Hungary has slipped through the sieve of common knowlege.

Due to recent events that I don't think I need to explain, some historians or non-Hungarians are beginning to doubt Hungary's status as a republic (much like Putin's not-so-democratic rule of Russia). I do not wish to impose upon you or take an opinion of any of these events; however, Hungary's declining economy (which will be even more so after the integration of the Euro in the near future) combined with a lack of understanding of both the country's culture and its language's reputation as an extremely difficult one makes it hard for so people to see through the veil of doubt and ignorance that surrounds the Central European country.

But what, my friend asks, can be done? It's quite sad, in my opinion, how not just Hungary is being overlooked. Well-known facts such as the rapid extinction of languages and cultures and the endangerment of more major ones (Romansch, Breton) will lead some, including myself, to see a monolingual, monocultural world in the future.

Do any of you have any opinions on this?

100% agreed. Same thing for Poland, (strongest, richest, biggest, and one of the most important nations in europe at one point)

"I really hate is trying to bend history in your favor."
bend history in your favor???
ok if i do that then what did you do? You also bend the history in your favor, so i don't dispute with you. Why?
1,You can't assure me, and i can't assure you.
2, And the Romanians can speak romanian language, and they can practice they persuasion. And now the hungarians can't speak in their language.
So leave this thing alone. I don't want to flee from this conversation.
But my English is not perfect so i have to learn more, then we can dispute about this thing.
And i don't want to offence your people.

(Sorry about my english)

"much like Putin's not-so-democratic rule of Russia"
Yes this unfortunately is true, our actually present government, its a "democratic-dictatorship, i mean "masked dictatorship" do you see what i mean?
Our prime minister is a liar pig, and he command the police to crush the demonstrations with brutality. after "Balaton öszöd" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferenc_Gyurcs%C3%A1ny%27s_speech_in_Balaton%C5%91s z%C3%B6d_in_May_2006)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hungarians

I think the reason why Hungary is so forgotten compared to Poland or Austria is because time after time, era after era for the past 600 years they had been supressed down to an insignficant cube by stronger nations. The Ottomans did it. And so did Austria. Hungary did half the fighting, half the work but Austria got all the credit. And then begin Russia and communism.

Another thing about poor Hungary is that Historic Hungary had its borders and lands resettled by other races such as the Romainians in Translyvania
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Kingdom_of_Hungary_counties.svg
It used to look like that. But it lost half of its lands to other countries during the break up of WWI and became half its size, resouces, manpower and so on and slipped into decline until the 90's. Faith hasnt been that good on the Hungarians

I think the reason why Hungary is so forgotten compared to Poland or Austria is because time after time, era after era for the past 600 years they had been supressed down to an insignficant cube by stronger nations. The Ottomans did it. And so did Austria. Hungary did half the fighting, half the work but Austria got all the credit. And then begin Russia and communism.

Another thing about poor Hungary is that Historic Hungary had its borders and lands resettled by other races such as the Romainians in Translyvania
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Kingdom_of_Hungary_counties.svg
It used to look like that. But it lost half of its lands to other countries during the break up of WWI and became half its size, resouces, manpower and so on and slipped into decline until the 90's. Faith hasnt been that good on the Hungarians

Resettled? :rolleyes: You must be kidding me. First of all, the Romanians are not a race. Nor are the Hungarians. Second, the Romanians were making up 75% of Transylvania in 1910. Hungary has been oppressing all its neighbors, especially Transylvania because it was orthodox, and you call them unlucky? I beg you to show me 1 place where Romanians resettled anything anywhere, anytime, except for the forced Cadrilater (southern Dobrogea) that is in Bulgaria, which has been resettled back by Bulgaria after WW2. I have no idea why you chose this side of the debate, but you have no idea what you are talking about.

For your information, those counties you see there in the east that you love are all of Romanian origin: Fogaras <- Fagaras (place with "fag" trees, "fag" = beech); Kolozs <- Cluj (from Latin "Clus", enclosed, due to the hills nearby, surrounding the city); Temes <- Timis (Latin "Tibiscum", name of a big river); Maros (which is present in "Maramaros" and "Maros-Torda" is from Latin "Marisia"). Szatmar <- Satu Mare (Romanian for "big village"). Do I need to give more examples?



Another thing is that you somehow believe Croatians deserve to be in Hungary, for some reason. Those people earned their freedom and you are saying Hungary was unlucky? Again, why not say the Soviet Union was unlucky in 1989? Do you also believe Zagreb deserves to be in Hungary?

It is sickening that some people believe an oppressive regime such as Hungary had any claim on those foreign people nearby.


And for the others that are reading this, keep in mind I'm just answering a post. I did not start this debate.

Oh man, Hungarians arguing history and national identity with Romanians?

*Grabs popcorn*

Believe me nothing tops the epic Macedonian debates we used to witness here ;)

I'm just back from Budapest where I spent 3 days in a business strip.

I don't know if all the hungarians are as nice as my customers there, but I spend 3 very nice days :beer: :cheers:

I'm just back from Budapest where I spent 3 days in a business strip.

I don't know if all the hungarians are as nice as my customers there, but I spend 3 very nice days :beer: :cheers:

Hungary and Poland have very similar histories; they were both superpowers in eastern europe at one point or another, and they were both subsequently divided up by their neighbors. Indeed, at one point, they were in personal union, with Wladyslaw II being both King of Poland and King of Hungary. Even during the Communist era, there were parallels in their history. The Hungarian Revolution in 1956 happened because there was a much more successful political protest in Poland the month before, for instance.

So the question is: why does everyone know about Poland, but nobody about Hungary?

I don't think it's because of any Romanian conspiracies. I think it's simply because Poland is far larger, and whereas there are countless Polish-Americans, there are very few Hungarian-Americans.

Also, I do not buy the language argument.

Yes, there are difficult things about the Hungarian language. There are nearly 20 noun cases, there is vowel harmony, and there are the ty and gy sounds, which are entirely impossible to say by non-Hungarians.

But there are also difficult things about, say, Russian or Polish. In Hungarian, at least there is no grammatical gender. In Polish and Russian, not only do nouns have gender, but VERBS have gender also!! And those consonants with accent marks over them in Polish are also very hard for non-Poles to pronounce. And let's not forget that Russian is an entirely different alphabet. Knowledge of an easier Indo-European language are not going to help you with that.

So I think that Slavic languages are equally as difficult to learn as Hungarian.

And we, HUNGARIANS saved Europe against the Turkish occupation.
The Noon bell
During the Siege of Nándorfehérvár (modern-day Belgrade) in 1456, Hungarian nobleman John Hunyadi defended the city against the onslaught of the Ottoman Sultan Mehmed II. During the siege, Pope Callixtus III ordered the bells of every church to be rung every day at noon, as a call for believers to pray for the defenders of the city. However, in many places, news of the victory arrived before the order, and the ringing of the church bells at noon thus transformed into a commemoration of the victory. The Pope didn't withdraw the order, and Catholic churches still ring the noon bell to this day.


OK, I am going to intervene in this conflict on the side of the Romanians. :p

The argument can be made that for all the things that Janos Hunyadi did against the Turks, his son did two things to make it easier for the Turks to conquer southeastern Europe. How much time did Matyas spend fighting other Christian countries and weakening the Balkans, the Austrians, and others?

Moreover, when the Turks were at Vienna, who was fighting on their side against Austria and Poland? Imre Thokoly and the Hungarians.

Hungary has a glorious history. Much more glorious than Austria, which didn't really exist until 15th century.
Hungarians stopped Mongolian invasion, they lost the battle of Muhi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Muhi) and they suffered a great deal under short Mongol occupation, but they effectively prevented Mongol meddling in European affairs.
They were independent country until the end of the WWII, although they were effectively incorporated into Habsburg empire. Hungarian aristocrats made a great deal of trouble to Habsburgs. They didn't allow counter-reformation for instance.
In 1867 they forced partition of Austrian empire, since this occasion known as Austro-Hungarian Empire. Ruler of the empire was the King of Austria and King of Hungary at the same time, but Hungary was quite independent in internal affairs.

Budapest almost outshine Vienna in late 19th century.

They were the first to stand up to Soviet dictatorship in 1956.

They have Nobel laureate in literature, Imre Kertesz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imre_Kert%C3%A9sz)

Very interesting history, much of it on wikipedia. Hard to find good english literature about this subject though. Even here, in Slovenia, which is Hungary's neighbor.

Hungary has a glorious history. Much more glorious than Austria, which didn't really exist until 15th century.
Hungarians stopped Mongolian invasion, they lost the battle of Muhi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Muhi) and they suffered a great deal under short Mongol occupation, but they effectively prevented Mongol meddling in European affairs.

In what sense did they "prevent Mongol meddling" in Europe? By having the flower of their nobility, as well as their king, slaughtered in one of the most uneven battles of that era? Subotai absolutely humiliated the Hungarians at Mohi.

I'm not an expert on the Mongols, granted, but the accepted wisdom is that it was Mongol politicial inefficiency, as well as the geographic difference between the central asian steppe (which ends in Hungary) and the rest of Europe that stopped the Mongols from going further.


They were independent country until the end of the WWII, although they were effectively incorporated into Habsburg empire. Hungarian aristocrats made a great deal of trouble to Habsburgs. They didn't allow counter-reformation for instance.


You conveniently leave out the part where Hungary allied with Nazi Germany. Few dictators have killed more people in a shorter amount of time than Ferenc Szalasi.


In 1867 they forced partition of Austrian empire, since this occasion known as Austro-Hungarian Empire. Ruler of the empire was the King of Austria and King of Hungary at the same time, but Hungary was quite independent in internal affairs.


Yes, during which time they systematically oppressed Slavic and Romanian populations under their control.


Budapest almost outshine Vienna in late 19th century.


I have no retort to this one. I've never been there, but I've heard only good things about Budapest.


They were the first to stand up to Soviet dictatorship in 1956.


East Germany stood up in the early 50's and was crushed by Soviet tanks. Poland stood up in 1956 too, the month before Hungary.


They have Nobel laureate in literature, Imre Kertesz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imre_Kert%C3%A9sz)


They also have a lot of famous mathematicians and economists (Janos Harsanyi won the Nobel in Econ), as well as the inventor of the Hydrogen Bomb, Edward Teller. Hungary has certainly produced more brilliant people per capita than any other country in the region, I'll grant you that.

The moral of the story: like any other country, Hungary has good history and bad history. It has glorious things in its past and deeply embarrassing things in its past. I don't think it's correct to either over-romanticize it or to condemn it.

>SeleucusNicator: You are absolutely right in every point of your post. I still think Hungary has a glorious history. Much more interesting than, hm, Slovenia, for instance. Or Slovakia. Or Moldavia. Or even Serbia.
Every country has dark sides of it's history, no doubt about it. I just wanted to point out that Hungarian history is wrongly overlooked.

Okey, thing about Muhi does bother me a bit. Yes, Hungarians did lost the battle, but not as badly AFAIK. Besides, they remained independent, whilst Kiev Russia did not. And Kiev and Hungary are not very far away. Nor are the landscapes that different. In fact, Hungarian Pusta resembles Mongolian steppes much more than Zaporozhje and Pridnjeper in Ukraine. So I don't really buy your arguments about Mongolian weaknesses. I could be terribly wrong though, I'm not really expert historian neither.