WOTM 07: Cyrushttp://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/info/leaders/leaders0004.jpg

Gyathaar gets a month off this time, allowing me to up the difficulty!


This game MUST be played in Warlords patch version 2.08. We will NOT accept any games played under any other patch versions, and you can't play it in vanilla (plain) Civilization4!

Further, it MUST be played using the latest version of HOF mod for Warlords. This is currently version 2.08.003 (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/mods/HOF-2.08.003.exe).



Game settings:
Civilization: Persia (Leader: Cyrus; Traits: Charismatic & Imperialistic)
Rivals: 6
Difficulty: Immortal
Map: Pangea (modified)
Mapsize: Standard, Cylindrical
Climate: Tropical
Water level: low
Starting Era: Ancient
Speed: epic
Victory Conditions: All enabled
Other settings: All default


Cyrus:
Cyrus is Imperialistic and Charismatic; starting with Agriculture and Hunting. Imperialistic gives +100% great general emergence, and +50% settler production. Charismatic provides 1 extra happy face per city, -25% experience required for a promotion, and +1 happy face in each city with a monument and/or a broadcast tower.

Unique unit: Immortal (The Wheel)
The immortal replaces the chariot. The immortal exactly has the same stats as a standard chariot, but gets +50% vs archers, in addition to the standard +100% vs axemen & 10% chance of retreating from combat.

Unique building: Apothecary (Guilds, Currency)
The apothecary replaces the grocer. The only difference between this and the standard grocer is that the apothecary provides +2 health.

The starting screenshot is here (Click for larger version)
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/wotm07small.jpg (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/wotm07large.jpg)

Adventurer Class bonuses:
Start with a free worker and archer
Start with additional knowledge of The Wheel.


Challenger Class Equalizers:
AI civs all start with a bonus technology.

Perhaps settle on the bananas, if there's a seafood resource in range? (Which the blue circle would suggest, but the scout can confirm.)

Immortal difficulty has me kind of scared. I wouldnt be suprised at all to find a few grassland gems nearby and some very favorable conditions. Ive only played emperor a couple of times, but I have a feeling immortal is going to be insane. Im going to test out how insane these immortals are in rushing straight through enemy forces. But to be honest why did we have to pick Persia, with 300 just coming out I feel like the bad guys.

I'm curious now. I'd always imagined that the intention was to change difficulty levels cyclically, usually in a sawtooth manner, which would've put this WOTM at emperor. Is that no longer the intention (or was it never the intention and I just imagined it)?

If there's any horsies nearby, this map is going to be heaven for the fast-conquest-freaks :lol: As long as you pillage the AIs resources quickly so they've only got archers left, immortals will be able to walk over most AIs. And get to them quickly. Will be nice revenge for those who felt Cyrus's wrath in WOTM03 :)

@Priah: I don't think immortal is that much harder than emperor. It's certainly a lot closer to emperor than to deity in its feel. Compared to emperor, the AI starts with two workers instead of 1, so it gets off to a stronger start, and the AI can tech and grow about 6% faster. Barbs will spawn slightly faster too and barb cities will tend to be defended by four archers instead of three.

But to be honest why did we have to pick Persia, with 300 just coming out I feel like the bad guys.

I don't understand the reference to 300???

I don't understand the reference to 300???
It's the new movie coming out - looks fantasatic.

Map: Pangea (modified)
Modified? - This has got me worried.

Settle on spot and Chop a few settlers, then it's WAR!

300 is a new movie that came out in the states this week, covering the Battle of Thermopylae. 300 Spartans versus a ton of Persians...as I recall, the Persians won the battle, but took heavy losses...if I'm not mistaken, it was the battle that was the original Pyrrhic victory.

I don't understand the reference to 300???

It's about 300 Spartan defenders who beat a million Persion attackers - clearly a reference to civ ;)

Immortal difficulty has me kind of scared. I wouldnt be suprised at all to find a few grassland gems nearby and some very favorable conditions. Ive only played emperor a couple of times, but I have a feeling immortal is going to be insane. Im going to test out how insane these immortals are in rushing straight through enemy forces. But to be honest why did we have to pick Persia, with 300 just coming out I feel like the bad guys.

To be honest, Immortal isn't worse than Emperor other than the AI gets a slightly faster jump on you at first. I've actually never won Emperor but won the last Immortal GOTM. As for Persia...I have a feeling that its a gift for us, thanks to the Imperialist trait we will actually be able to expand as fast as the AIs are able to.

As to the actual game...I believe I will start out attempting to go for a conquest/domination win...if that falls apart I'll either go for a Cultural or Space Race victory...At the moment I'm tired of Diplo victories, which seem to be my only submitted victories other than WOTM5 lol

edit: I'll settle in place as well...I see no reason to move when we start on a hill, with 3 food resources, one of which helps production, and lots of forests and hills. It lends itself to a very strong capital, both short term and long term(hills and grassland mixed with 3 food resources means lots of production and commerce)

300 is a new movie that came out in the states this week, covering the Battle of Thermopylae. 300 Spartans versus a ton of Persians...as I recall, the Persians won the battle, but took heavy losses...if I'm not mistaken, it was the battle that was the original Pyrrhic victory.

The original Pyrrhic victory involved King Pyrrhus of Epirus against the Romans.

ah, that would explain why it is called Pyrrhic victory rather than something relating to Xerxes or Leonidas...but it isn't as well known ;)

Probably a dumb question, the answer to which must be somewhere easy, but when will this game start?

Also, with all this 300 / Gates of Fire discussion, maybe the Greeks are just around the corner in this game too.....

harbourboy, 15th of March.

and about the game, i have no idea where should i settle, there's lots of food in south but nothing where to use it and lot's of hills in north but no food(that's seen atm)

not that it does matter because my only goal is to survive and have fun doing it :D i tried to play on these given settings today and everything went wrong, mayby i should try again.

does anyone have any tips about immortal? i usually play at monarch and my test game was just a disaster.

It's about 300 Spartan defenders who beat a million Persion attackers - clearly a reference to civ ;)

Ah, thanks! And to Thrallia!

Guess that shows how many films I don't watch :)

I think many of us are really going to need some pointers as to how to play at this level.

If my test game is anything to go by (just up to AD) its extremely hard to keep up with the AI in any form. Science was OK (I went AH and wheel to get Immortals, and then headed straight up the literature branch in order to trade off tech with neighbours).

I found that there were any number of barbarian cities appearing in the unclaimed land. Each of these had 4 archers, and I found that Immortals had a tough time against them, though the balance was in their favour. It left me thinking that attacking my AI rivals would be near-impossible.

I'm off to read up again on playing at Deity, so that my next trial at Immortal might not seem too terrifying.

I reproduced a few maps till I got somthing relatively simaler to this start position (ie, same recources, same wood amount, ocean to one side). I went standard worker worker settler, settled near horses. My goal is to try to get a second settler out asap, settle the horses, and get stonehedge out asap. Problem is, I need to get the wheel to even get my immortals, and I need mycticism to get stonehedge. Cept it seems that you can only reliably get stonehedge if you beat 2000 bc. Which makes this goal more or less impossible. Last game I managed to get stonehedge and start getting immortals out asap. Once I was secured from barbs though, montezuma comes out of nowhere and swarms at me with what seems like four new archers every turn. Ive literally killed at least 13 within the first 5 turns.

Im convinced that our start position will be very favorable, wouldnt be suprised at all to get horses in the starting cross. My tech order is gonna be animal husbandry (to work the cows), mining, bronze working, mycticism, then rush out the stonehedge hopefully asap, followed by rushing out my first settler, (im almost positive there will be a happiness recourse nearby), After this, start pumping out those immortals asap, once I have like 8 or so, hitting my nearest enemy all out.

This is going to be pretty tough, and I hope we dont get someone like monty next to us.

I plan to attempt this. It will be my first GOTM and I fully expect to suffer all the problems described above and get overwhelmed before the AD years, primarily because I will be prevented from using what is usually my most powerful in-game weapon, the "Plastic Reload Button Wonder". I wonder just how short this game will be for me. I may well be the first to finish! Or be finished, to be more accurate.

This should be an interesting game. Someone (not me) will probably manage to conquer the world using mostly Immortals. Am I the only one who has noticed we're playing Immortal difficulty with Immortals, by the way?

Based purely on what we can already see the starting location would be an excellent location for a specialist city or a cottage city. But it's not the sort of production powerhouse I think most of us think of as a dream capital location.

But with that said, where else is there to go? The forests to the east mean that moving in that direction to settle is a big gamble. It'll be slow to scout, let alone build your city. Going south at least lets you move twice and stay near the Wheat and/or Bananas. North looks kind of empty but who knows what the Scout could reveal...

Then there's west. At first glance, it's interesting. But if that's really an ocean coastline over to there then the other blue circle, or anything in that direction really, is likely to be a lot like the spot we start on. It'll have lots of food and little production. So not that attractive in my mind. For purposes of expansion and centralization I would also rather not put my capital on the western-most edge of a Pangaea continent. Now if that's a fresh water lake to the west, it'd have a lot more potential.

Never played as Persia, but those look like whopper bonuses. With a great general we can produce +5xp Immortals pretty early, and with Retreat promotions they should do all right.

This is one time that I think I will sit down and figure out the exact research path that I want to take. Most of the time I just kind of wing it and then I really don't play to the strength of the nation that I am.

I think we've been given a very useful set of traits here. Warmongers will get great generals out very quickly and with them some very highly promoted units. Builders will be able to get out settlers a lot faster than normal to help with the early land grab. And everyone will benefit from the happiness cap being--in effect--a monarch level cap not an immortal level cap. The only thing to watch is there's nothing to help with the immortal level maintenance costs.

@Vynd: I don't normally dream of production powerhouses for my capital (perhaps I would if I was more of a warmonger but I'm by nature a builder). In the early days I'm happy to use slavery for a lot of my production - and this location is well suited to that. Later on I'm usually more interested in a high commerce capital, which this also looks reasonably good for.

@DaviddesJ: I'm somewhat baffled by your suggestion of settling on the bananas, since even if there are sea resources there, I see no good reason for it. You don't gain any production, you are basically swapping grassland-cottages for sea tiles, losing forest-chops, making it less likely that a strategic resource will turn out to be in the capital's radius, and very likely putting your capital further away from the eventual centre of your civ. Have I missed something? (Assuming the tiles to the left of the visible area are coast: The screenshot is suggestive that they are but I'm not 100% certain)

I disagree on the idea of conquerinrg the whole world with immortals. Just isnt going to work. In my test game, ai gets huge wandering troop numbers with spearmen in every city just waiting for those immortals. Id just love to find alex next to us... id probably cry.

I disagree on the idea of conquerinrg the whole world with immortals. Just isnt going to work. In my test game, ai gets huge wandering troop numbers with spearmen in every city just waiting for those immortals. Id just love to find alex next to us... id probably cry.

I think we should be able to conquer one or two civs with immortals, but for the whole pangaea construction is necessary. Although perhaps ainwood made our UU useless once again, the sea level is low and thus the AI might be far away, plus they might have copper that is easy to connect.


@DaviddesJ: I'm somewhat baffled by your suggestion of settling on the bananas, since even if there are sea resources there, I see no good reason for it. You don't gain any production, you are basically swapping grassland-cottages for sea tiles, losing forest-chops, making it less likely that a strategic resource will turn out to be in the capital's radius, and very likely putting your capital further away from the eventual centre of your civ. Have I missed something? (Assuming the tiles to the left of the visible area are coast: The screenshot is suggestive that they are but I'm not 100% certain)

You get +1 food from the city center if you settle on the bananas. So in the short term that gives us +1 food, and in the long term that gives -1 food (you loose 2 food by working a farm instead of a plantaion, but you get 1 back from the city center). If there is indeed a sea resource in the west, settling on the banana becomes clearly better. Even if not, it still seems to be a rather good choice. Sea tiles instead of grassland is not that bad, in the early game you won't have enough happiness to work that many cottages anyway. And if going for a conquest/domination win that just doesn't matter at all. :p Looks like decreasing the propability of having horses in capital's radius is the biggest disadvantage of moving.

Im starting to think the immortals are there just to be able to survive the barbs... I have like ten immortals and I still am getting a few points pillaged, they are literally swarms of them.

@DaviddesJ: I'm somewhat baffled by your suggestion of settling on the bananas, since even if there are sea resources there, I see no good reason for it. You don't gain any production, you are basically swapping grassland-cottages for sea tiles, losing forest-chops, making it less likely that a strategic resource will turn out to be in the capital's radius, and very likely putting your capital further away from the eventual centre of your civ. Have I missed something? (Assuming the tiles to the left of the visible area are coast: The screenshot is suggestive that they are but I'm not 100% certain)

The main idea is to give the capital much more food surplus, early on. Current location has +2 (city center), +2 (cows), +2 (wheat) = +6 food. Bananas are not worth much, they are no better than a grassland farm (until Calendar). [I guess you could put a temporary cottage on them to get 1-2 commerce as well.] By building on the bananas, you could have +3 (city center w/bananas), +2 cows, +2 (wheat), +3 (clams) = +10 food. That's quite a significant difference.

Coastal capital is also good for trade (with harbor), offsetting some of the downside. I tend to play for short games, so the long-term potential of maxed out cottages isn't so important to me. I can always build another city later on that will develop a lot of cottages.

Nevertheless, I agree you have some good points against the idea, as well. Also, knowing that you have bananas in your fat cross, you could prioritize Calendar much higher than I normally would (e.g., you could aim for Calendar before Iron Working).

So long as you gave up on Stonehenge. That would mean that Calendar would have no downside of making your nice stone circle obsolete.

So long as you gave up on Stonehenge. That would mean that Calendar would have no downside of making your nice stone circle obsolete.
Personally, I think one of my weaknesses is in holding-on too long with stonehenge, rather than researching calendar. Stopping research on calendar with one turn remaining whilst I get an extra cultural expansion or two is a way of mitigating this problem though.

So long as you gave up on Stonehenge.

Well, I almost always "give up" on Stonehenge, at Immortal, unless I have stone. I usually skip monuments, and just rush (or chop) libraries after granaries---except if I absolutely have to put a city where it's really unproductive until its first cultural expansion. An early push to Calendar also means early Mathematics, which is good on this forest-heavy start. Conversely, of course, you could view the many forests as a gift of Stonehenge.

I just started a test game on Persia on Immortal difficulty. I shouldve upgraded myself a while ago, its actually hard and I feel like im competing for survival rather than just trying to win as quickly as possible. Im looking forward to this game.

This will be far too difficult for me, as I have never managed to win above Prince level, but I will give it a go anyway.

Yes, the Persians do have nice bonuses but the flipside, as always, is the stuiff you're not getting:
- you have no cash because you're not Financial or Organised
- you have no culture because you're not Creative
- you can't build wonders fast because you're not Industrious
- you can't change civics easily because you're not Spiritual

etc. Basic stuff, I know, but worth remembering for those who are getting all glassy eyed over all the Great Generals they're going to get.

Well, I almost always "give up" on Stonehenge, at Immortal, unless I have stone. I usually skip monuments, and just rush (or chop) libraries after granaries---except if I absolutely have to put a city where it's really unproductive until its first cultural expansion. An early push to Calendar also means early Mathematics, which is good on this forest-heavy start. Conversely, of course, you could view the many forests as a gift of Stonehenge.
In a conquest/domination game (and thats what I'll be going for this time) I usually just build a granary and a barracks in most cities, plus the cheapest culture building if I need to expand borders, which is usually a monument. Anyway, in this game we have a charismatic leader, so monuments also give +1 happy face, so I guess they get a much higher priority. Besides math & calendar are among the most favourite techs for the AI, and we have a decent difficulty level, so I don't think a rush to calendar is a good idea. I would rather go for Alphabet, then hopefully trade math and then get construction for catapults. Trade for calendar only once I own a calendar lux to make up for the lost monuments. This might take some time, so indeed, it seems like settling on the bananas is the best option here.

I'm off to read up again on playing at Deity, so that my next trial at Immortal might not seem too terrifying.

Don't; the gap between Immortal and Diety is too great and won't teach you enough, stick with practicing Immortal.

I think we should be able to conquer one or two civs with immortalsIn a conquest/domination game (and thats what I'll be going for this time)I'm curious how you envision doing your early preparations for conquering the first AI or two. Around what year would you like to be starting your warring, how many cities are you likely to have, and how many units would you like to be starting your offensive with?

At the very beginning, would you probably build a wkr, a couple warriors and an early settler, or just a wkr and barracks and rush straight to AH and the Wheel and crank out immortals? Or would you consider not even building a wkr and hope to steal one? With all that food with the banana location, would you prioritize Slavery?

These early decisions seem like they're the most critical and yet I'm never really sure how to approach them. How do you think through these decisions?

I'll definitely build a worker, I never rely on capturing one.

The number of settlers I am going to build before the rush and the year of the attack will depend on the map: how good are the spots for settling, how easy will it be to get horses, how far is the AI, do they have copper/iron, etc. Its not that easy to derive a specific rule.

All the high difficulty maps in GOTMs so far favoured normal expansion over rushing, they all had low sea level and the AI were far away, separated by jungle, etc, while the land around the starting position was nice and it was possible to build some really nice cities. And this map also has a low sea level. So maybe I was too optimistic when I said about rushing two civs. :)

Another interesting idea would be to use a small force of immortals to cut the AI from copper/iron while expanding normally, and then conquer it easily facing only archers.

Slavery is a priority of course, I think I'll research AH, then fishing (if there is indeed a sea resource), then mining, then BW and revolt ASAP (IIRC we already have agriculture and the wheel).

Slavery is a priority of course, I think I'll research AH, then fishing (if there is indeed a sea resource), then mining, then BW and revolt ASAP (IIRC we already have agriculture and the wheel hunting) So I suppose you would time the Wheel so that you can connect Horses when the barracks are done? Or barracks come later? Early on they're expensive but useful with our -25% promotions.

....cut the AI from copper/iron...
So I take it you would research I/W? or would you try to get it with Alpha?

So I take it you would research I/W? or would you try to get it with Alpha?

You don't necessarily need iron working to cut the AI from iron (though it helps). You just pillage any mines you find. And you especially pillage any mines that are sitting on grassland where there doesn't seem to be any reason for a mine to be there! ;)

OK, then its necessary to slot in the wheel somewhere, propably after bronze.

I'll try to get IW from Alphabet, its too expensive to research it just to see where the AI iron is. It should be possible to get both IW and math in trade since its pangaea and we should get all 6 contacts by the time we get Alpha. It is also possible to find an iron mine even without the tech by looking at its production. It'll show that the mine is producing 5/6 hammers instead of 3/4.

The barracks are a good investment, I think. We'll need plenty of immortals even to begin the attack, so there is enough time for them to pay off.

Ok.. so there has been some discussion on where to build the first city, but none on the first move for the scout.

I am inclined to go 2E with the scout to open up the lands to the east and see if there are any other resources in view/range of the starting spot. If not, maybe I'll venture to the bananas, but that also seems like a risk.

Conversely, one could send the scout SW (and then S?) to see if there is indeed a sea based resource before moving the settler, but that would leave the east dark.

I have never played immortal - so this will be interesting!

Best research order ive found is actually animal husbandry, mining, bronze working, mycticism, wheel, writing, alphabet and so on.

Other notes Ive found on Persia Immortal test games:
The 50% faster build for settlers ONLY applies to hammers you have going into building it, not surplus food.

I have managed to get the second city out and get the stonehedge built by 2000 bc. Only problem is, Ive had a real problem holding onto that second city and keeping barbs away from destroying it. In this latest test game I got horses in my fat cross, so that may have contributed to my feeling that getting a second city so quickly was pretty risky. Im going to have two seperate plans based on if we get horses in our fat cross. I think stonehedge is a no brainer this game, the great prophets are far more helpful than scientists for early warmongering, and you are going to build a monument in every city anyway.

The more I look at settling on the bananas the more im starting to like the idea. Im going to move the scout E then Se and see if I can find any more hills, or even plains with forests on them. Another issue is im not sure if the banana position will have enough forests around to do my stonehedge plan, not to mention wasting a turn. Of course if you get the coast, you can get the great lighthouse (without question pretty much best wonder in the game and easy to get). Not to mention settling away from any preplaced horses in our initial cross.

Another note, do not declare a religion. In my test game I got stuck between Isabella and monty, so I really didnt have much of a choice, had to join Isabella. Basically world war I was fought in 500 bc with every civ in the game killing eachother.

Overall I think playing my last two test games alone has raised my skill level tremendously, I was able to hold my own very easily and be number 2 in score by 200 ad, while relatively keeping up in tech. I shouldve upgraded myself long ago.

...great prophets are far more helpful than scientists for early warmongering...You lost me on that. How do GPs help you with warmongering?

I'm thinking of moving the scout east then southeast to reveal two of the three unknown tiles associated with settling in place. I'm hoping there is a hill to the southeast then east of the starting location, if so, the scout should see it.

The other option would be to move the scout south then southwest (to the other blue circle) to see what a coastal capital would look like.

I'll move the scout NE-NE ...
It looks more like a temperate map than a tropical one :confused: ... where's the jungle North or South ?

I'll settle in place ...
My research will probably something like : AH (for the horses) Mining, Wheel (UU), BW ... after I don't no ... I tried potery, writing and alphabet (Huts provided me archery) in my test games but it's really hard to stay in the research race ... each time I had only alphabet to exchange with the AI
I hope there will be gold or gems around to help.

My first idea is to built
- a worker who will irrigate Wheat, then chop forest(*2) and built a mine,
- barracks and if needed I plan to whip an archer to defend the city
- archer ...
- settler ...
I d'ont plan to built (in the beggining) more than 2 settlers ... other city will be captured with axemen and

Goal :
- get 1/ horses 2/ Gems or gold 3/ Bronze 4/ Elephant
- choose carefully which AI to attack ... :scan:

You lost me on that. How do GPs help you with warmongering?

I assume he wants to settle his GP for the 2 hammers/5 gold. That's among the best results for a settled great person (only the engineer is arguably better).

Alternatively, even if you aren't going to found any religions, you might conquer a holy city, and use your GP to build the shrine there. Settling is probably better, though.

I assume he wants to settle his GP for the 2 hammers/5 gold. That's among the best results for a settled great person (only the engineer is arguably better).

Alternatively, even if you aren't going to found any religions, you might conquer a holy city, and use your GP to build the shrine there. Settling is probably better, though.

2 hammers and 5 gold seems welcome relief to a relatively hammer poor and more relatively commerce poor capital. Lightbulbing Theocracy may also be an option. With an early general, barracks and Theocracy and minus 25% xp what do our newly minted recruits look like?

XP levels for promotions when Charismatic are 2, 4, 8, 13. With Barracks, military advisor, and Theocracy, you only get 7 XP. With Stables as well, you would get 9 XP for mounted units. But how are you planning to use Theocracy, without a religion? Are you just hoping for one to spread to you?

If you manage to bulb theocracy theres a fairly good chance your going to be the first to theology therefore getting christianity.

I'm doubtful that you can get a GP from Stonehenge early enough to lightbulb Theology before anyone else founds Christianity. I agree that if you can do this, it would make the plan more attractive. Although, if you're converting to Christianity, you're making everyone else dislike you.

Pangeas are more or less round, right? So coastlines will more often appear concave- we're looking at the border from inside the circle. This 'coastline' looks convex-it's bordered on the north and maybe the south too. If we're lucky it's 1 tile wide with copper+ on the other side.
I'm not convinced this is the west coast. Could be, maybe not.

I'll move the scout NE-NE ...
It looks more like a temperate map than a tropical one :confused: ... where's the jungle North or South ?

There is Jungle 1W2N; and 2N of the scout. 2W and 2W1N of the Scout might also be jungle. It also looks like there is jungle 3S of Settler, but that is harder to tell.

This 'coastline' looks convex-it's bordered on the north and maybe the south too.

It could be just a bay or slight indentation of the coast. I don't think that we have enough tiles visible to acurately make that type of prediction. Moving the scout SW S would help to determine this though.

Do you keep the monument happiness after calendar or just the culture? If so Stonehenge could be tempting if it can reliably be built. Think I'll run some test games to get familiar with the times. Don't think any other wonders would be possible or worth it.

Also tempting is worker stealing … the Immortal should be a good tool for nabbing, surviving and escorting. Looks to be jungle all around so we may need IW and lots of workers.

Anyone kind enough to post a test save?

(deleted post)

Im pretty proud of myself, about to win my first game on Immortal as Persia. Charasmatic and Imperialistic actually help eachother out quite a bit. Can get level 3 city raiders in your city with the heroic epic with vassalage and two great generals settled there. Is pretty sick. And of course, charasmatic is very nice at the start.

Calendar will turn off the bonus happiness from Obelisks.

Depending on the settings, Pangea maps can have a smooth coast or a "pressed" coast with sizable bays, penninsulas, offshore islands, etc. Also, ainwood notes that the map is modified. So its really anyone's guess what the landmass will look like. Maybe there will be a civ that starts on a Japan- or Britain-like island just off the coast of the main continent.

just out of curiosity, is anyone going for anything other than conquest or domination?
This guy (traits and UU) screams for military. I guess it would be easier to get a space award (if you succeed :lol:) here than on any other!

just out of curiosity, is anyone going for anything other than conquest or domination?

I'm just going for survival!

Anyone kind enough to post a test save?I'd appreciate that too. I think a lot of people would, given the difficulty? I still haven't finished WOTM06, but realistically there's no way I'm gonna by tomorrow, so I'm thinking I should just get an early start on this (instead of waiting 'til end of month like I did with WOTM06). Although I've never even PLAYED a game above Monarch level & don't have that much playing experience in general, so I probably won't have much problem "finishing quickly" this month.

I made a few attempts last night to generate /regenerate something that looks similar randomly, but all I got is starting positions that look a lot nicer than this one :mischief: [/editorial comment]

QUESTION ON SETTINGS: The description reads: "Other settings: All default" Does that mean normal (not raging) barbarians, normal (not aggressive) AI, and goody huts? And anyway, just what does playing on immortal mean? (I'm guessing it's somewere in FAQs, but haven't started to look yet)

Calendar will turn off the bonus happiness from Obelisks.

Good to know, bummer but thanks. I don’t think Stonehenge is going to be a priority. I usually indulge myself with building one or two wonders but maybe not this time. One of our inherent advantages is building settlers and maybe should not get distracted at this level of difficulty.

Can get level 3 city raiders in your city with the heroic epic with vassalage and two great generals settled there. Is pretty sick. And of course, charasmatic is very nice at the start.

Didn’t know GG +2xp stacked … also good to know. I knew the +50% production didn’t stack so I assumed the +2xp didn’t either. Can’t bring myself to use vassalage though … Theocracy is OK if and when I ever get it.

There is a nice level 2 trick (with Barracks and one GG +2xp). Learned from a post last game that four level two catapults (barrage and accuracy) can reduce any city defenses to zero in one turn … it’s sweet. That's where my first GG will be going.

Good to know, bummer but thanks. I don’t think Stonehenge is going to be a priority. I usually indulge myself with building one or two wonders but maybe not this time. One of our inherent advantages is building settlers and maybe should not get distracted at this level of difficulty.



Didn’t know GG +2xp stacked … also good to know. I knew the +50% production didn’t stack so I assumed the +2xp didn’t either. Can’t bring myself to use vassalage though … Theocracy is OK if and when I ever get it.

There is a nice level 2 trick (with Barracks and one GG +2xp). Learned from a post last game that four level two catapults (barrage and accuracy) can reduce any city defenses to zero in one turn … it’s sweet. That's where my first GG will be going.

You dont use vassalage?? Um you might want to correct that soon. Vassalage owns.

I built a bunch of level 3 city raider trebuchets and level 3 collateral damage catapults and ripped heavily defended cities to shreds. Got even more intense once I got cannons with the same upgrades. Imperialistic and charasmatic traits are made for eachother. Before I really wasnt a fan, but in my test game I had like 7 great generals settled in various cities by the end of the game.

I'm doubtful that you can get a GP from Stonehenge early enough to lightbulb Theology before anyone else founds Christianity. I agree that if you can do this, it would make the plan more attractive. Although, if you're converting to Christianity, you're making everyone else dislike you.

I lightbulb theology all the time using GPs, but then I'm usually playing Monarch and epic speed and not Immortal. Does your comment refer to immortal and higher settings specifically, or all settings, or WOTM7 only?

@slowrider:

Do you not find it more effective to give catapults city raider promos and use them to pound down the defenses in a city before the main troops attack. My experience has been that if I do it this way, I lose about 2-3 catpults per attack on a city but the remaining cats get stronger. Also my main army stays largely intact and I don't lose any other troops, usually. Depends on the number of defenders, of course, but I'm assuming about 4 to 5 defenders in a city.

Anybody else care to weigh in on what's best, here?

Thalaba

There is a nice level 2 trick (with Barracks and one GG +2xp). Learned from a post last game that four level two catapults (barrage and accuracy) can reduce any city defenses to zero in one turn … it’s sweet. That's where my first GG will be going.

In Warlords 2.08, Walls will slow down the bombardment rate by 50% so your 4 Accuracy Cats will then take 2 turns to knock down the defense.

I tried a test game last night and was surprised at the rate of Barb city spawning. I took out a city and auto-razed it and 5 turns later it was back again. :sad: Fog-busters are going to be a must in this game...

I lightbulb theology all the time using GPs, but then I'm usually playing Monarch and epic speed and not Immortal. Does your comment refer to immortal and higher settings specifically, or all settings, or WOTM7 only?

Only Immortal. I am not going from experience, just intuition. (And, are you using just the GPP from Stonehenge to get your GP at Monarch, or other sources too?)

Anybody else care to weigh in on what's best, here?

All else being equal, it's best to avoid losing units in attacks, because you get less war weariness.

Can’t bring myself to use vassalage though … Theocracy is OK if and when I ever get it.
Vassalage is great for military games, much better then bureaucracy, at least if you have a big enough empire. Theocracy is not that good though: 1. it requires 2 revolts, not just one; 2. different cities may have different religions, so often you'll have to spread the religon manually, building missionaries instead of military to make use of it; 3. if you don't adopt a state religion you'll get culture from any religion to expand borders in cities you capture. So, I'll nearly always adopt vassalage in a military game, but I'll sometimes stay in paganism instead of theocracy. It depends on how the religions are distributed and how quickly I get theocracy (which influences the number of turns needed for anarchy: two 2-turn revolts is a bit too much in almost any case).

So I don't really like great prophets. Settling and shrines takes too long to pay off and prophet techs aren't that usefull compared to other GPs. I would rather get a scientist and lightbulb machinery. If I do build SH & get a prophet, I would rather start a GA with it.


Do you not find it more effective to give catapults city raider promos and use them to pound down the defenses in a city before the main troops attack. My experience has been that if I do it this way, I lose about 2-3 catpults per attack on a city but the remaining cats get stronger. Also my main army stays largely intact and I don't lose any other troops, usually. Depends on the number of defenders, of course, but I'm assuming about 4 to 5 defenders in a city.

Anybody else care to weigh in on what's best, here?

I usually promote some cats with barrage (and its better to use barrage then city raider: city raider will only increase the damage done to the top defender, not the whole stack) and some with accuracy if I have that option (requires 5 xp). A small tip: its not necessary to heal all cats, you can use the wounded ones to bring the defenses down and the healed ones for suiciding. Its especially usefull with charismatic: you can promote the cat with barrage-I, atatck and if it retreats you'll have enough XP to promote it with accuracy.

I would rather get a scientist and lightbulb machinery.

Are you ready for this by the time of your first GP? You have to learn Sailing, Metal Casting, Iron Working, Compass, Mathematics, Calendar first. That seems like a lot. I would think Machinery might be a good option for the second GP.

If I do build SH & get a prophet, I would rather start a GA with it.

I think you're underestimating the value of settling a GP in your military city that has HE, barracks, military advisor, etc. There's a lot of synergy there.

Are you ready for this by the time of your first GP? You have to learn Sailing, Metal Casting, Iron Working, Compass, Mathematics, Calendar first. That seems like a lot. I would think Machinery might be a good option for the second GP.

Yes, you are right. I just remembered that its possible to get machinery with a scientist, but forgot to check the list. Compass is quite useless on pangaea, so I'll propably just self-research machinery if I don't get compass in trade. Need to think carefully what can be done to shorten the path to either knights or maces. Maybe I'll just get construction and stop there if there is ivory.


I think you're underestimating the value of settling a GP in your military city that has HE, barracks, military advisor, etc. There's a lot of synergy there.

I don't think so, that is just two base hammers. I like golden ages a lot, thats a lot of production instantly. If I don't find a quick path to maces/knights with lightbulbing I'll propably go that route.

I honestly dont know why you would go for anything besides domination with Persia. Charasmatic and Imperalistic would be completly useless traits without domination in mind.

Im really hoping for one amazing production city site where I can settle two great generals and the heroic epic and pump out level 3 city raider macemen and trebechets (yes, i like to get a few city raider trebuchets along with the suicide catapults). In my test game my army is pretty much unstoppable. By the time it was ending, I had well over 100 units in my grenadier/calvary/cannon attack force and tore through the last three opponents in less than 40 turns. Might have been overkill, but on Immortal the enemy tends to actually have attack units.

In Warlords 2.08, Walls will slow down the bombardment rate by 50% so your 4 Accuracy Cats will then take 2 turns to knock down the defense.
Thanks, didn't know that.

All else being equal, it's best to avoid losing units in attacks, because you get less war weariness.
Forgot about that and WW is really a pain ... I tend to suicide too many cats thinking they're cheap. Need to keep in mind that is not the only cost.

Vassalage is great for military games, much better then bureaucracy, at least if you have a big enough empire. Theocracy is not that good though: 1. it requires 2 revolts, not just one; 2. different cities may have different religions, so often you'll have to spread the religon manually, building missionaries instead of military to make use of it; 3. if you don't adopt a state religion you'll get culture from any religion to expand borders in cities you capture. So, I'll nearly always adopt vassalage in a military game, but I'll sometimes stay in paganism instead of theocracy. It depends on how the religions are distributed and how quickly I get theocracy (which influences the number of turns needed for anarchy: two 2-turn revolts is a bit too much in almost any case).
I never thought of any of that. Good stuff ... very convincing arguements. You've sold me with Vassalage vs Theocracy but I need another push to give up my beloved Bureaucracy. As a warmonger I'm all ears. Oh, and by the way, could you please update the rest of the civics in the strategy guide.

I usually promote some cats with barrage (and its better to use barrage then city raider: city raider will only increase the damage done to the top defender, not the whole stack) ...
That's what I've been doing but have alway debated using the CR option. Think I'll stop worrying about that.

PS - I finally learned how to use the multi-quote. Please bear with me until I get tired of overusing it.

I honestly dont know why you would go for anything besides domination with Persia.

The GOTM is a competition. There are many different prizes, all of which are equally valid. Going for one of the alternative victory conditions makes more sense, if most people are doing the opposite, because you will have less competition.

I can win reliably with any victory condition. So why not choose one that's more interesting?

(To me, the only problem with the other victory conditions isn't the leader traits. I just don't have the patience for long games.)

I don't think so, that is just two base hammers. I like golden ages a lot, thats a lot of production instantly.

I don't see why "just two base hammers" is a small amount. Multiply by 100-200 turns to get the value. Compared to the golden age (costing two great people) giving maybe +10 base hammers in your main military city, for 10 turns, well, it seems like a lot to me.

You can't use your first GP for a golden age "instantly". You have to wait many turns, for another one. (And if that's one that you wanted to use for something else, then keep waiting, etc.)

...
You've sold me with Vassalage vs Theocracy but I need another push to give up my beloved Bureaucracy. As a warmonger I'm all ears.
...

It took me a while to realize that Vasselage reduces the unit support cost of units (I misunderstood the help text :lol: ), which will somewhat compensate for the extra civic cost. The reduction in unit support is related to the size of your empire if I remember correct, and the civic cost increases when your empire grows as well.

Then keep in mind that the extra +2XP will reduce the number of units you loose in battle (if it gives another promotion). Assume 20% more units survive. That could be considered as 20% higher production in all your unit production cities. So, if your capital represents less than 50% of your military production, then Vassalage is actually competitive. If your capital contributes less than 25% of your war production, Vassalage is actually better. This can happen already when you reach a medium sized empire.

I might go for space. Nearly all my civ4 gotms have been domination, so I'm ready for something else. And sometimes I learn alot playing 'across' a civ's strengths. I'll start aggressive in any case, and may not be able to resist a military win.

As for the coastline, it's just a statistical argument in favor of the banannas. If we're in the center of the continent that's less maintenence and one less reason not to settle there. And, how many views this size are there on a low water pangea? How many of those views are 3 tiles from the west coast? But of course only looking will tell us for sure.

I'm looking forward to using retreating Immortals to take out cities. 40% retreat chance = 40% survival chance, and additionally 'Retreat II' gives immunity to first strikes. Whether the defenses have been bombarded or not, I like to chip away at a city's toughest couple of defenders with retreaters before sending in the attackers.

As for the coastline, it's just a statistical argument in favor of the banannas.

If the water we can see is fresh water, I'm probably less likely to settle on the bananas than if it's coast. The yield from the fresh water will be the same as the yield from coast (after lighthouse). And it's less likely to have a seafood resource. And it doesn't get the harbor benefit.

I, too, will be aiming purely at surviving as long as possible.

I never thought of any of that. Good stuff ... very convincing arguements. You've sold me with Vassalage vs Theocracy but I need another push to give up my beloved Bureaucracy. As a warmonger I'm all ears. Oh, and by the way, could you please update the rest of the civics in the strategy guide.

Its a pretty straightforward warmonger's set: monarchy (or police state if we capture the Pyramids), slavery, vassalage, decentralisation (just because the techs are too far away), theocracy or paganism.

If the water we can see is fresh water, I'm probably less likely to settle on the bananas than if it's coast.

Right, a statistical argument Against the bananas :lol:

Do you keep the monument happiness after calendar or just the culture? If so Stonehenge could be tempting if it can reliably be built.

When you get Calendar, any monuments created by Stonehenge disappear completely.

If you built a monument by hand, then it remains, but it no longer generates happiness, just culture.

When you get Calendar, any monuments created by Stonehenge disappear completely.

If you built a monument by hand, then it remains, but it no longer generates happiness, just culture.

Id recommend going for monarchy first before calender, hopefully we will have some wine sitting around.

I can't wait. Is it time for it to start yet? I suppose I shouldn't be in any rush because I figure I will be wiped out within the first hour - probably by a couple of half strength immortal barbarians warriors.

Come to think of it, I have never seen the You're Dead screen in Civ IV. In Civ II it was a picture of your bones sitting in the dust. I'm soon going to find out what Civ IV has in store for me in the way of humiliating gloating.

I've tried quite a number of trial games now, each time using as close as I can get to the starting conditions we know of - world type and visible start location.
Last night I replayed the same start several times from 400BC up to about 500BC each time.
A few things I noticed were:
I can pretty much found a religion every time - if I want to. Hinduism mainly. And it didn't seem to matter even if I didn't have a particularly commerce-rich start square. The AI seemed to go for Buddhism first, rather than Hinduism.
I can build Stonehenge (if I chop a couple of forest tiles) before the AI. Assuming I want Stonehenge, that is.
I managed to get Alphabet first in virtually every game, usually heading for it after getting Wheel, Animals, Mining, either Bronze or Archery - then straight up for Writing and Alpha. Meant I was able to trade it for various that I had missed.

However, I was pretty much always bottom of the scores every time, despite my best efforts.

Losing out on the land-grab proved to be a problem sometimes. You seem to have to get a settler or two out early (or earlier than I tried in some attempts - where I had concentrated on warriors/workers/workboat first).

Are the animals extra-tough on Immortal level? I found I lost my scout too many times, even when trying to protect them on forest/hills.

Then the barbs are a pain. Anywhere that the AI doesn't grab, the barbs set up cities. You get archers coming at you all too soon.

That's something else I have made a note of. Military strength early on is the only way to deter the barbs and your violent neighbours. The last trial was my best one (not even bottom of the score!) and that was achieved by going for quick growth and expansion. However, even this one was spoiled by barb attacks when I hadn't got archers going yet. Lost my new city, which would have been a terrible blow in the real WOTM.

All in all, I think I'm beginning to get my plan together. It's a bit disjointed right now - just a set of objectives that I need to combine.

Mainly I'd like to reach 500BC not being the smallest, weakest, most backward civ - and in a position to stir things up with my Immortals!

I've tried quite a number of trial games now, each time using as close as I can get to the starting conditions we know of - world type and visible start location.If you happened to have the "starting turn save" option checked in the HOF mod, would you mind sharing one that matched particularly well? thanks!

Lots of interest in this game, looks like. I wish everyone luck. Immortal is decidedly above my "Maybe emperor on a good day" skill level so I for one will be happy with any win I can get, forget about medals.

Some folks have talked about how being Imperalistic means we get cheap Settlers and will let us land-grab quickly. I wish this were true, but as someone pointed out awhile back the bonus towards Settler construction only applies to hammers. Food that's being devoted to Settler construction counts as normal.

Given that a lot of what goes into building early Settlers is surplus food from special resources, I doubt that the Imperialistic bonus will speed up Settler construction by more than a few turns per Settler. Which is still nice but isn't enough to build a strategy around IMHO.

Yes, the bonus is only to hammers, but it gives you a 50% bonus to hammers obtained by chopping or by whipping as well. In my tests I would start a Settler and then whip it the next turn for only 2 pop. I usually had enough overflow for an Immortal after that. With our food-heavy start, whipped Settlers can come out pretty fast.

If you happened to have the "starting turn save" option checked in the HOF mod, would you mind sharing one that matched particularly well? thanks!

@MarkM
I'm not sure how helpful this will be. I didn't have that option set. (I'm going to set it now. Could be useful in the future.)
All I have is the 4000BC autosave of the last attempt I made - which was (almost laughably) not so close to the real start.
I've attached a screenshot - after the scout moves to show some resources that convinced me to try the game - and the start save.
As you can see, there are some vital differences. Plains instead of grass. Coastal start instead of 'perhaps coastal'.

Here is a relatively nice, Ainwood inspired test map for the WOTM. I added a couple of resources to the map so it should be about equivalent to the Qin Immortal GOTM. I'll try to generate a more difficult start later.

Here is a relatively nice start similar to the WOTM. I added a couple of resources to the map so it should be about equivalent to the Qin Immortal GOTM. I'll try to generate a more difficult start later.
thanks--I also think there will likely be some extra resources around.

Yea I just went into the editor and made it so my starting location had two hills, wheat (not irrigated) and some cows. Also added horses nearby in another relatively nice location.

Here is a more challenging, Gyathaar inspired test game.

@RobertTheBruce
Thanks for the 2 'practice tracks'. :goodjob: Very interesting.
I've tried both a couple of times.
The difference is noticeable. On TestA I've founded religions, avoided bottom slot on the scores, and generally crashed around taking bites out of my neighbours with them Immortal boys.
On TestB I've not founded ay religions, have languished at the foot of the scores and haven't hit anyone due to a lack of hitting units.

A few small changes here and there, and it makes the difference between a walk in the park and a walk through the valley of death!

Hopefully the actual WOTM (which I will be starting this weekend) is pitched somewhere between the two extremes. Nearer 'A' than 'B' for me, tho ;) .

I had fun playing this one even though I lost! I also have a question what do I have to do to submit my game?

I had fun playing this one even though I lost! I also have a question what do I have to do to submit my game?

Top of this page - Civ IV
Click on Game of the Month
Upper right of that page click Submit a GOTM, then follow the directions

Here is a more challenging, Gyathaar inspired test game.

Man this is an evil layout. Gyathaar will be inspired by this for next GOTM. (Hope not :eek: ). I played my usual no archary route and bearly survived the barbs. Phew. I need to change the way I play. Thanks for the eye opener.:goodjob:

Man this is an evil layout. Gyathaar will be inspired by this for next GOTM. (Hope not :eek: ). I played my usual no archary route and bearly survived the barbs. Phew. I need to change the way I play. Thanks for the eye opener.:goodjob:

Its probably unfair to imply Gyathaar would produce a map like this. He has produced a few maps which resulted in suboptimal city placement to grab military resources. I meant to add a copper in the desert after switching a nearby iron to aluminum. This map makes elephants really the first available military resource.

Its probably unfair to imply Gyathaar would produce a map like this. He has produced a few maps which resulted in suboptimal city placement to grab military resources. I meant to add a copper in the desert after switching a nearby iron to aluminum. This map makes elephants really the first available military resource.

:eek: doesn't seem fair
I hope test A is closer to the real game. I tried it up to 1 AD, and found it easy enough (= nearer to monarch/emperor difficulty than to any usual immortal start).
Enough test games for me. Thanks RobertTheBruce :goodjob: .

@MarkM
I'm not sure how helpful this will be. I didn't have that option set. (I'm going to set it now. Could be useful in the future.)
All I have is the 4000BC autosave of the last attempt I made - which was (almost laughably) not so close to the real start.
I've attached a screenshot - after the scout moves to show some resources that convinced me to try the game - and the start save.
As you can see, there are some vital differences. Plains instead of grass. Coastal start instead of 'perhaps coastal'.Thank you very so much AgedOne! Sorry my gratitude is belated but I wasn't able to get to play it until last night, didn't have much time to play last 10 days and the time I had I spent finishing GOTM16. Also thanks to RobertTheBruce, though I haven't yet looked at yours I will. It sounds "intriguing" based upon others' comments!

I've never gone beyond Monarch (well maybe emperor once a long time ago in vanilla, and I didn't fare well) & usually a builder -- I'm just starting to try to consciously move away from that tendency in last couple GOTMs. So this is going to be a stretch for me. I figured my actual game would be brief :) so might as well put some extra time in on the front end to get more out of dissecting my defeat :) When I played your map though I was surprised to find I wasn't immediately wiped out. While I definitely wasn't doing WELL (was in 2nd to last at ~500BC, with half the score of the leader), I had successfully attacked Mansa Musa & razed 3 of his cities + captured a 4th, leaving him with one. Given that my scout had encountered him a turn ~12 & he already had a skirmisher I was pleased I could even overcome the big early lead he had.

However I'm still on the road to nowhere in this game. At 500 BC I have a respectable army in quantity, but it soon will be lagging in quality, it's pretty much immortals, swordsmen, and a couple archers and axemen. My problem is that my maintenance is killing me, even at 0% tech research I still only generate a surplus of 1 gp per turn! :eek: I have 4 cities, capital + 3 others 5-8 squares away.. I don't see it as a mistake to have any individual one of these cities -- #2 and #3 were need to hook up critical warmaking resources of horses and iron respectively (I started the war with just immortals, but quickly found I lost at least one for each skirmisher defender, to soften it up, so I think the swordsmen I got from hooking up the iron really improved my military position, especially when given mansa started building spearmen just after that; his remaining city is built right on top of an iron deposit). I thought I was very selective in keeping captured cities -- as I mentioned I razed 3, and the last one is not only close to the capital & on the nicest site of all my cities (it will produce lots of commerce if i can ever get it going), but it is also the jewish holy city & my only city with religion currently. But yet I'm basically mired down -- can't build much else but early military units because of lagging tech, can't do more research because of maintenance, can't boost commerce much because I pursued military techs & haven't got pottery or writing yet, and finally can't get techs out of mansa in a peace deal (he clearly has them, he has built cottages & has ships sailing around i can't build, and since I have him down to 1 city & a healthy lead in score on him still, I think he'd buy me off with them) because I don't have alphabet yet.

Anyway, what am I asking? I think it comes down to this: is it possible to go TOO much a warmonger at Immortal level, is that my problem? Did I need to obtain research infrastructure advances (pottery, writing) earlier, work commerce squares earlier to accelerate getting those techs, and focus less on working production tiles? That's something I think I have been able to overcome in my warmongering attempts on lower difficulties (= lower maintenance), but has trapped me here. In particular having alpha not much beyond the start of your first major war seems like a good idea to get the most out of wars (getting good peace terms). I think I still need to find a balance here... I'm gonna try one of RobertTheBruce games next, maybe Thursday night, and I think I'll try to do those things, modified by whatever advice I might get here. Looking at the starting position for the WOTM in particular, it makes me think moving to the coast might be advisable not only for reasons discussed here but to boost early commerce/tech research, as well as the other advantages talked about already here. The starting position looks pretty light on early research possibilities, except for the lake. Maybe horses & iron will turn up in starting radius so I won't have to build those early extra cities though ...

I realize most readers are probably playing WOTM7 already, but any general advice is appreciated.