This game is Over. Post 2 is the story. Post 3 is the real world back story. Post 4 is the game info. Post 5 is the starting save. Post 6 and beyond are the nitty gritty of the game. Post 48 is the opening turnset.

Current Roster:

CommandoBob
Lboogie13
Phaedo
CivActuary
TimBentley
Norton II

First Lurker: AutomatedTeller


Known Lurkers:
Aabaraxan
Kool Keith

‘Well, Mr. Montezuma, we are here to address your concerns about the lack of respect you feel as a world leader and a military power. We have researched the problem and we are ready to offer our advice. This is Mr. - ’

‘Bernie, gladtomeetya, yeah, my last name is really Barnard, but everyone calls me Bernie. Say, Monty, oh, you don’t mind if I call you Monty,do you, thanks; well listen Monty, like I was saying, you guys have got yourselves an image problem. I mean, you guys are perceived as weak, a pushover, pansies, youknow? That’s not what you wanna be. Imean, you guys don’t even use bows and arrows in this here, whatyacallit, Jaguar Warrior of yours. Ya need to upgrade, get some Uzis and some of them, uh, Claymores, yeah, he’s a real good fighter that Claymore guy, must be the Irish in ‘em, right? Anyway, you need to get a new name, I mean PETA, a group which I have no personal use for, but they do get a lot of press, PETA will be all over you like stink on a full diaper if they hear your top of the line unit is named after an animal and you use animal skins as part of your uniform, youknowwhatImean? These people are just crackpots, but the press likes ‘em-‘

‘Next!’ said the man at the end of the table.

‘Sir, the issue is quiet simple. Your prized unit is perceived, quite frankly, as little more than a joke that triggers a ridiculously early bonus time for your people when they are too small to make use of it.’

‘Tell me something I don’t know,’ commanded the man at the end of the table.

‘Yes, well, sir, to be regarded as an equal, say to Rome or Greece, you must be better than Rome or Greece. This will not be easy.’

‘And you have a plan on how to do this?’ was snarled out.

‘Yes, I do. It is quick simple actually. Conquer the world.’

‘Conquer the world! Conquer the world? Oh, yeah, anyone can do that. It proves nothing.’

‘It proves something, sir, if you do that with your Jaguar Warriors as your only offensive attacking unit. Or is that too hard a task for you to do?’

Silence.


‘Hmm. Using only the Jags. Need a lot of them, but they are cheap to make. Have to win quick, also. Don’t want to face tanks with stone knives.

‘Okay, you’ve got a deal. My Jaguar Warriors will conquer the world. Now find me some generals.’

I smarted off in a thread about taking over the world with just Jaguar Warrriors. I mostly meant it as a joke, but the idea intrigued AutomatedTeller to the point he PMed about starting a game with that idea. Well, what could I say?

Overview
This is designed to be a test of quantity over quality. We will try to conquer the world with Jaguar Warriors. It will be the only offensive unit. We can build defensive units (spear, pikes, muskets, etc) but they are only city dwellers and settler protectors. We won’t be building them to protect the Jags, just our cities and settlers. We can also build bombarding units (catapults, trebuchets, etc).

Civ III Conquests 1.22f
Level: Monarch
Opponents: random
Barbarians: raging
Land mass: Pangea
Water: 80%
Map size: standard
Age: 4 Billion
Climate: normal
Temperature: temperate
Normal victory conditions are ‘On’.

This is a conquest game, but it is not Always War. Given our goals, it will probably end up played as Always War, but the AW restrictions will not apply here. We can make peace with our neighbors and make gpt trades. In turn, that means we need to keep our reputation in good order.

The first turnset will be 20 turns and then will drop to 10 turns each. At some later point we may have to drop down to 5 turns when the turns get real long to play and log.

I am considering have each player play 20 turns from the starting save and then we post, compare our results and decide which start to play from.

Lurkers are always welcome.

Bingo Point
I like to win as much as the next person and I don’t believe in giving up. However, there may come a time in this game where it becomes obvious to all, including me, that we cannot win by conquering the world with hordes of Jaguar Warriors.

If we do come to that conclusion, we will end the game. I may start a new thread, from that last save, where the focus is to win some other way than conquest or domination. This would allow those who wanted a pointy-stick game a chance to depart with honor.


Gameplay

I know my schedule and have learned that I cannot keep the 24/72 pace that others can. Work, family, other interests and other SGs serve to limit the time I can give to any one game. I also encourage discussion, especially early discussion, of game plans and ideas. Since the goal is conquest, in the later game it is just a matter of killing units and capturing cities. Early game will be the time of greatest discussion.

So I will hold to a rather relaxed 48 hrs to post a get and 96 hours to play or give an update on the current game events. Skips and swaps are allowed and encouraged when needed. And if everyone is busy and the game sets for a bit (holidays, mostly) that is fine too.

This is not a training game, but could certainly be a wild game, with hordes of Jags swarming all over the map. Don’t let your difficulty level stop you from joining.

CommandoBob’s Semi-Standards
These things have helped me to focus my attention better on the game mechanics. I will be doing these things. I ask that anyone who wants to join be willing to do these their first two turnsets. The key is willing, not required.

Pre turn Strategy Post
This can be brief or elaborate, depending on the state of the game. We plan to win by conquest and we will have a lot of war, so mostly this would focus on plans for the current turn.

Military Strength
At the start and again at the end of a turnset, if we've had a lot of losses, just report what our current military strength is. This can be gotten from the military advisor or from CivAssist II. It would look like this:

03 Warriors
16 Knights
10 Mace

The breakdown of conscript/regular/veteran/elite is not really needed here. I tend to just order the units as the Military Advisor does, so the order of what units comes first tends to change through out a game.

City Builds
For each city we have, list their name, size, growth in turns and build in turns. It would look like this:

London (4) grows in 4, spear in 2.
Paris (6) zero growth, temple in 4.


City Build Recap
This is just a list of what builds are being built by which city. The list would contain the name of the build, the count of how many are being built, followed by the names of the cities building that item. It would look like this:

Temple [2] (Paris and Rome)
rSpear [1] (London)
vSpear [3] (Mecca, Trondheim and Athens)

At some point in time both these city lists lose their importance. For this game, we can ignore the City Build list when we get over twenty cities. I think the Recap would be good until we get around forty cities. After that they take more time than they are worth, especially since by the time we get to forty cities they will be making mostly fighting units anyway.

These lists do take extra time, but they have helped me to see things I might otherwise have missed, like building too many aqueducts or too few settlers. So I would ask that the players try these for two turnsets.

And of course, all of these can be combined into one post. I tend to review the cities and military and then develop some plans for the turns that are upcoming.

And just to say it again, these semi-standards are suggestions. They have helped me and they might help you. Do not let them stop you for signing up.

City Names
Please change them to something non-Aztec.

Unit Naming
I find it helpful to have workers and slaves named, since I try to focus a good deal of attention on worker moves and improvements. When these units are named it makes it easier to identify individual units. If I am cycling through the units (as I tend to do), I can mentally select Worker66 as a book mark for when I’ve cycled through all the units.

I really don’t care how the units are named: Worker01 = 01Worker = WorkerA = AWorker = WorkerSteve = SteveTheWorker = LurkerWorker; they all are fine by me. Slaves I would prefer to be prefixed with the word ‘Slave’. So Slave01 = SlaveA = SlaveDave = SlaveOfThunderfall are all good names.

CBob02 4000 BC

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/CBob02/StartupTrimmed.jpg


And the save is >>HERE<< (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58993/CBob02_BC_4000.sav).

Sounds intriguing. I'll try. Go Jags!

I'm game. Conquering the world with a 1/1/2 unit!

Let's see if we can prove Ision wrong:
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/strategy/civ_aztecs.php
The Jaguar is a 1-1-2 warrior class unit costing 15-shields (available from the start). The Jag is a multi-faceted unit - barbarian fighting scout, pillager, and future swordsman. However, let me start by telling you what the Jaguar is not - it is not a cheap 'human wave' attack unit. A player that uses the unit in this fashion (even if successful) will have wasted precious shields, units and most importantly 'time'. The unit was never designed to build in mass as a primary attack force - this is simply not cost efficient.

I'll take my spot in the Lurkers' Gallery, please. Good luck, guys! This one promises to be interesting.

Killercane won standard monarch in 1150 BC in PTW (i.e. 10s jags), although he used archers as well and undoubtedly had 80% water. I'll join, I don't believe I've won a game in the AA yet. Game parameters look fine (definitely need pangaea).

Welcome Phaedo, CivActuary and TimBentley! Even greetings to Aabraxan, as he looks on from the gallery. :D

Killercane won standard monarch in 1150 BC in PTW (i.e. 10s jags), although he used archers as well and undoubtedly had 80% water. I'll join, I don't believe I've won a game in the AA yet. Game parameters look fine (definitely need pangaea).
With 80% water, the land mass will be less, right? I tend to ignore the water/age/climate stuff, but that may not be too smart in this game.

Have you considered how you're going to deal with the impact on production of defensive units? Once you get iron hooked up to a city, you'll lose the ability to build Jags, won't you? Then, assuming that you eventually get Feudalism, either you'll have to spend a lot of time hooking and unhooking iron OR cities will have to specialize, building either (a) Jags & spears or (b) pikes.

Have you considered how you're going to deal with the impact on production of defensive units? Once you get iron hooked up to a city, you'll lose the ability to build Jags, won't you? Then, assuming that you eventually get Feudalism, either you'll have to spend a lot of time hooking and unhooking iron OR cities will have to specialize, building either (a) Jags & spears or (b) pikes.
No, not yet. :(

I figured we'd dive deep into the strategy after the team was filled out. I have a real fuzzy idea of how to proceed, but I know it needs team input. And I hadn't thought about finding Iron. :eek:

Once you get iron hooked up to a city, you'll lose the ability to build Jags, won't you?



i'm 90% sure you can build jags throughout the game.

Why do we need to hook up iron anyway? Lots of spears are just as good as pikes if we pick our terrain wisely.

i'm 90% sure you can build jags throughout the game.

Any civ can build its UU, regardless of technology and resources, if it hasn't had it Golden Age yet. In this game, however, the GA will come very early, so iron can't be hooked up.

BTW, I'll take that open slot if everyone's OK with that. I did a solo jag conquest on a tiny map on regent a few months back--or would have if I hadn't inadvertently left conquest victory disabled. :blush: On a standard map, we'll have to find 'em fast and finish 'em fast. Enough jags might be able to handle pikes but won't be able to handle muskets. And hopefully, no civ will start on an island.

@CBob: I probably don't have to say this, but be sure that AI respawn is off.

@CBob: I probably don't have to say this, but be sure that AI respawn is off.
Uh, yeah, uh, sureitis! You betcha. You wouldn't expect me to forget that, would you? (Ok, now, where did I put that sign?)

And welcome to the game!

I'll be lurking. Good luck, guys....you're gonna need it. :p

Just never research IW, you can live withouts forts and queducts at Construction

If that spot is reserved for me, I'm in - but I have a big availability problem. work is heavy right now and I have 2 SG's and the demo game :(

There is a purity to a game like this - build a granary, a bunch of cities, a bunch of barracks and a lot of jags. go kill. Rinse and repeat.

Why research anything? We start with everything we need (barracks, jags and granaries) except maybe spears - unless we need galleys. Researching anything just speeds up the tech pace and who wants to do that?

jags aren't wave attackers - what they are are stack attackers. pikes will be tough, but if we get greece or carthage, we gotta take them out.

We don't even need to build workers - we will take them from our opponents.

Now that sounds like an efficient strategy. We'll need all the unit support we can get I imagine as well. I guess speed is the key in this game eh?

Just for my 2 cents, I think we could do this at Emperor.:)

Why research anything? We start with everything we need (barracks, jags and granaries) except maybe spears - unless we need galleys. Researching anything just speeds up the tech pace and who wants to do that?

jags aren't wave attackers - what they are are stack attackers. pikes will be tough, but if we get greece or carthage, we gotta take them out.

We don't even need to build workers - we will take them from our opponents.Would we need Bronze working for Spears? Or are we not going to need them if we are pretty much offensive minded through the game?
Or maybe Math for 'pults to soften up higher defense units?

If that spot is reserved for me, I'm in - but I have a big availability problem. work is heavy right now and I have 2 SG's and the demo game :(

I had PMed two people and invited them into this game. You were one of them. And from your response I figured you would be too busy, so I removed one of the reserved spots and made it an open one.

The other player has not yet responded, so I am awaiting their acceptance or rejection.

Would the position of First Lurker be better for you, where you fill in a turnset here or there, but not be in the normal rotation? That might work better for you with your schedule.

that;s fine :) in any case, I'm looking for to seeing it.

(RL has kept my evenings busier than I expected).

No offical response from the other invitee but I'm not ready to declare the game 'closed' just yet.

Any other thoughts on the game/map parameters? I'll not be rolling up a start until late Friday or early Saturday, so there is plenty of time for input.

Would an older world make our task any easier?

Actually, I think an old world would make our job tougher. Older means more hills and mountains so more iron resources both for us and the AI. A drier world might make things a bit easier as it would slow down growth for everyone and of course, the smaller the world, the easier our task.

CommandoBob sorry I just checked your pm. If there is a spot still left I'm in.

CommandoBob sorry I just checked your pm. If there is a spot still left I'm in.
Great! You're in.

Shortly I'll be rolling up a start for

Civ: Aztecs
Difficulty: Monarch
Size: Standard
Landmass: Pangea
Water: 80%
Age: 4 billion
Climate/humidity: average
Respawn: OFF
Opponents: all Random
Victory Conditions:

Conquest
Domination
Culture
UN
Spaceship
Histrograph


I can't roll up a start right now, (have to go celebrate my sisiter-in-law's birthday today) so it may be a while before I get the starting save posted.

I will check back here before I do the start, in case we need to tweak a setting or two. If my mind isn't too fuzzy, I'll get a screen shot of the start-up selection page.

I'll be checking back often!

World Settings

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/CBob02/ChooseYourWorldTrimmed.jpg

Player Settings

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/CBob02/PlayerSetupTrimmed.jpg


Our World, 4000 BC
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/CBob02/StartupTrimmed.jpg


And the save is >>HERE<< (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58993/CBob02_BC_4000.sav).

I rolled several startups before I got this one. I was looking for quick access to fresh water, at least one luxury and one bonus grassland. This was the best overall. Even though this is only Monarch level, and we get two content people per city, citizen happiness will become an issue when we grow to size 3. With the furs connected, the city can grow to size 4 before we need to worried about cranky citizens.

Initial Twenty Turns
I would like to encourage everyone to play the first twenty turns. But before we do that, let's look at our start and try to determine some basics; such as build here or move, what to build, what to research, where to move the worker, etc.

Where to Build
Usually it is good just to build whereever you are, but here I don't know. I think we might be better off moving to a hill, most likely the one to the SW and making that our capital city. This leaves the plain free to be mined or irrigated and makes the hill more productive (2 food, 1 shield) than otherwise. It is also a better defensive position (just in case). It may also be a coastal tile; the screen shot hints at that anyway. And it is still adjacent to the furs and the BG across the river.

Moving 1SW puts the flood plain out of our initial 9 tiles, but we should reclaim it in the first border expansion.

And now I must confess some ignorance. I did not stop to check to determine what advantages the AGI trait gives us. :blush: Can someone explain what that trait does for us and how it affects our start up?

Not being familar with the AGI trait, I can't comment on what to build or research, but those who know more about it certainly can. :D

And now I must confess some ignorance. I did not stop to check to determine what advantages the AGI trait gives us. :blush: Can someone explain what that trait does for us and how it affects our start up?

Not being familar with the AGI trait, I can't comment on what to build or research, but those who know more about it certainly can. :D

Sure, I'll chip in!

Agricultural gives you an extra food in your city tile. Except in despotism, where your city has to be by a river to gain that food bonus.

I shall be checking in on this every so often, to see if you guys are getting close to the challenge.

(Personally, I don't think I could do it, buuuuuuuut...I'm sure I'm not the best civ3 player ever:lol: )

Besides the benfefit sercer88 mentioned, we get half-price aqueducts (probably not an issue in this game), and irrigating desert tiles gives 2 more food instead of 1. Unfortunately, that does not include flood plains (just verified this).

Offhand, I'd say settle in place and send the worker to the flood plain, then build 2 jags for scouting. But whatever we do, we shouldn't move off the river.

I'd like to see what's around a bit so I'd vote for a worker move to the BG first. Shields are going to be the key to success here. We should be looking for 5 or 8 spt in cities. Although growth is important, the extra shield first will speed everything up. I'd also vote for settling in place. We have some time to grow and we can do it relatively quickly so we should be able to get a settler on one of the northern hills to take any military pressure off the cap before we are threatened.

I think we should look to make our cap some sort of settler pump for as long as possible and let the other cities build until we have a solid core.

I just downloaded the save but those are my initial thoughts.

Now that I think about it, improving the BG first would be better--either that or chopping, mining, and roading the furs. The flood plain should come next, though. As for cities, how many will we need? Some extra unit support would help, but we might be able to pull this off faster if we set up the capital to produce 15 spt, i.e. a jaguar warrior every turn. Would a granary help with that?

Looks like the capital could get 15spt at size 10 in place.
Settling in place looks good. The first jag will take 7 turns regardless (may actually be 8 so it can grow from 2 to 3 in 5 turns instead of 6), so worker to FP for growth in 6 instead of 7 seems good. It may be worthwhile to not spend the time on roads at first if the extra shields would be significant, since the technology we have hopefully should be sufficient. jag->jag->settler seems like a reasonable possible build order. I can't think of anything worth researching.

I would also settle in place and improve the FP first.

I think we should save the chop on the furs for the Rax.

What would we spend cash on, if not research? I know, happiness, but we'll still have plenty. Are we going to want spears or cats?

What would we spend cash on, if not research? I know, happiness, but we'll still have plenty. Are we going to want spears or cats?

I'm thinking unit support. I have been thinking cats too but realistically, they are far in the future so support and happy faces should be immediate goals. We will need LOTS of units. Quantity over quality is the goal. [However, I wonder if after early war we might not be more effective with a huge cat force. I Think I'll shadow it when the time comes for personal reference]

I haven't figured out the details, but 15spt seems reasonable for the cap. That's with mined hills right? We still could take advantage of our growth rate and pump out settlers fast. Tim B's build plan seems good to me for initial builds.

[However, I wonder if after early war we might not be more effective with a huge cat force. I Think I'll shadow it when the time comes for personal reference]


I know the rules allow us to build cats, but can we use them offensively?

we can (as far as I understand the rules), but that doesn't necessarily mean it's our best option. If we are going to go for style points, maybe we want to reject all research and just go for overwhelming force.

I know the rules allow us to build cats, but can we use them offensively?
Yes we can.

I know that somewhat blurs the line between what is an offensive unit, a Jag or a cat. But to me an offensive unit can defend itself also, which a cat cannot. If a good order unit has to be protected because it can be captured, it is not an offensive unit.

But like Phaedo said, just because we can doesn't mean we should. We'll need to discuss that.

Works for me. Our initial offensive should be jags only, of course.

the other advantage of agri is you get pottery right off, so you can build a granary.

someone hit f10 and tell us whether you are dealing with hoplites, numidians, legionaries, impis or enkidu!! any of those might cause a serious problem for the hordes of jaguars that will soon be swarming over the world like army ants, the bite of each barely registering but in total, certain death for all who pass by!!

None of those, but we might have to deal with legionaries and Gallic swordsmen eventually:
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p196/Norton_II/opponents.jpg

I just downloaded the CivIII Combat Calculator in the Utilites/Tools section here.

If I understand the results, a 1 HP vJag attacking an unfortified 2HP vSpear in a grassland will win about 14% of the time. Which means to insure a win over such a unit, we'll need about 6 vJags to take down one 1 vSpear. And that number goes up to around 20 vJags to take out a vLegionaire or vPike.

I didn't think the odds would be so long. :eek:

But then again, on second thought:

C-3PO: Sir, the possibility of successfully navigating an asteroid field is approximately 3,720 to 1.
Han Solo: Never tell me the odds.

I always settle at the first place I start out at so I'm probably not the best one to chip in on opening moves!

Legionaires will be tough. I can't say I've done any combat calculators but my gut and experience have shown those are stubborn s.o.b.'s. They just don't want to die.

Roster (in sign up order):

CommandoBob - UP!
Phaedo - on deck
CivActuary - warming up
TimBentley
Norton II
Lboogie13

I'l try to play tonight. Build our capital where we stand, irrigate the flood plain, make jag, jag and settler. Explore. Research at 0%.

Since you're agricultural, I say work the forest furs first. (You'll still grow in 10 turns).

well, basically, a jag vs. spear should win a little fewer than 1/3 of the battles.

If you figure that defeating a vet spear will mean taking 5 HP, you need 15 battles or so, which is 4 vet jags (assume that the vet spear will get a promotion at some point) on average.

6 seems reasonable, with retreats.

That said, you will have several advantages.

1) Lots of elite jags
2) fewer losses, cause you are fast

Zulu might have hurt yoiu guy the most, cause you can't retreat.

0 4000 BC

And so we are off, after a rather brief preturn discussion.
We'll settle where we are, irrigate the flood plain to get more people, build an rJag, rJag and settler.


I don't want to call our capital Tenochtitlan, even though I can now spell it with ease. Aztecs Anonymous has a nice ring, but I used that in CBob01. Plus, this time we are the Aztecs. Would like to have something with that 'AZ' sound and/or look. Aspiring doesn't seem to fit; Asymmetrical and Asymptotic are cool words and have the right sound but don't communicate the right message. I give up racking my brains and open up a dictionary. Voila! I find the name of our capital city.

We found Aztec Azaleas where we stand, rJag in 8, grow in 7.
We have a goody hut not far away.
Worker01 moves onto the flood plain.

Science and happy sliders to 0%.

I point us towards MapMaking, which means we must learn our letters (Alphabet) and penmanship (Writing) first.



Our World 4000 BC
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/CBob02/4000BC_OurWorldTrimmed.jpg


[I] 1 3950 BC

Worker01 irrigates.



[I] 2 3900 BC

zzz



[I] 3 3850 BC

zzzz



[I] 4 3800 BC

zzzzz



[I] 5 3750 BC

Worker01 roads the flood plain.



[I] 6 3700 BC

zz


Aztec Azaleas rJag -> rJag, 4 turns.

[I] 7 3650 BC

Rename rJag to Sneaky Jag. Sneaky Jag will explore to our southwest, watching the goody hut. Culture expansion will pop the hut in 3 turns; don't want a nasty surprise.
Sneaky moves W and W and sees a coast line.



[I] 8 3600 BC

Worker01 completes the road, moves back into AzAz.
Sneaky Jag moves W, spots the ocean, moves S. Looks like we are at lands end.



[I] 9 3550 BC

Worker01 moves to the furs in the forest. The furs will connected on the turn before we grow to size 3.
Sneaky Jag moves E onto a forest and next to the goody hut.


Cultural expansion pops the goody hut and the Teoihuacan tribe teaches us about Ceremonial Burial.

[I] 10 3500 BC

Worker01 begins the forest road for the furs. It will complete one turn after AA grows to 3.
Culture expansion reveals more coastline to our south, southeast and southwest.
Sneaky Jag heads north and north.
Examine AzAz; work the unimproved BG instead of the flood plain and we grow in 7, not 5. Plan to grow and connect at the same time.


Aztec Azaleas rJag -> settler, 8 turns.

Our World 3500 BC



[I] 11 3450 BC

New jag is named Nosey Jag.
Sneaky Jag N and N, sees plains.
Nosey Jag E and SE.



[I] 12 3400 BC


Nosey Jag SE and E onto an almost island.
Sneak Jag E and E onto hill and opens up the land to the northeast.


[I] 13 3350 BC

Sneaky Jag N and N.
Nosey Jag heads back home, W and NW.



[I] 14 3300 BC

Nosey Jag NW and N.
Sneaky Jag N and N. Sees a red border to the west-northwest.



[I] 15 3250 BC

Sneaky Jag W and W onto hill next to the red border.
We meet the Romans. They have 45 gold. We know Ceremonial Burial, they know Alaphet and Bronze Working.
They will give BW if we give CB, 3 gpt and 78 of 78 gold. No.

Nosey Jag moves N and NW.

Got busy exploring and didn't pay attention to our growin in Az-Az. It will grow in two turns, after we connect the furs. I could MM it to grow in 1, but we give up 2spt towards the settler. Grow in 2, build in 4.


We get the popup that our people like furs.

[I] 16 3200 BC

Worker01 heads to the BG across the river, to mine and then road.
Nosey Jag W and N.
Sneaky Jag NE and N, crossing the Roman border. Rome has incense and it is connected already.


Rome asks us to leave. We agree.

[I] 17 3150 BC

Sneaky Jag got ordered to stay put by my clumsy fingers.
Worker01 mines.
Nosey Jag N, sees a goody hut, pops it, and awakens 3 angry guys in white.


One guy in white attacks Nosey and dies, making Nosey a veteran.

[I] 18 3100 BC

Sneaky Jag N and N, exiting Roman lands.

One barb fortified, the other went west.
Nosey SW, sees barb to the SW, attacks, turns red and backs off.


Aztec Azaleas settler -> rJag, 5 turns.

[I] 19 3050 BC

Nosey Jag fortifies to heal.
If Nosey Jag dies we have almost no defense.
Sneaky Jag S and S, ending in Roman lands.
SecondCitySettler SW and W.


Northern barb fortifies.
Southern barb moves east and out of sight.

[I] 20 3000 BC

Wake Nosey, who has improved to Yellow. SE and sees barb and moves S.
SecondCitySettler W, onto forest.
Sneaky, S and S

[IBT]

And the save is >>HERE<< (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58993/CBob02_BC_3000.sav).

Notes and Handoff
SecondCitySettler looks to be in a good location but a better one may exist. Here it is three tiles from AzAz, had access to two BG and a cow. It does need a road to connect to AzAz.
The settler is named SecondCitySettler. The city name will be decided by the next player.

We have trades we can make with Rome.
We can sell CB to them for all their gold (45).
We can buy BW for CB and 93 of 111 gold.
We can buy Alphabet for CB, 3 gpt and 111 of 111 gold.

I really didn't care for any of these trades. I think we need to meet someone else and see if tech prices drop.

But if it looks like we might be sacked by the barbarians we might want to deal with Rome and get some use out of our gold.


Our World 3000 BC
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/CBob02/3000BC_OurWorldTrimmed.jpg


To the North 3000 BC
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/CBob02/3000BC_OurWorldNorthTrimmed.jpg

Game Preferences
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/CBob02/PreferencesTrimmed.jpg

With Rome as our closest neighbor, hopefully we won't have to fight any 3def units. I guess Rome popped a hut for gold and pottery and bought BW and 10g for WC (or possibly alphabet) from somebody? I would guess they met the Ottomans then.

N of the cow and N-NE-NE of the capital might be good city sites. Actually moving the settler 1 N (for immediate cow access) and putting a city somewhere southeastish of him might work.

I like 1N of current placement and no deals with Rome. I think we can out-build him so there isn't an immediate need for the trade. Even if we weren't playing our current variant, 2 warriors would be better than 1 spear. Granted, the investment cost is higher in this game but so is the versality. I don't see he need for trades that just speed up the AI's research.

I have a couple of questions for the next set. How many Jags do we think we need to take the capital? My feeling is 20 but it's purely a gut feel.

I thought a rax should be the first build but with the barbs so close, maybe we should farm them instead and go for the gran.

I'd like to focus on settler with the cap and try to balance them with escorts from the new city. Is there a problem with that?

I have lots of time tomorrow, so I will wait for input before playing.

This is truely fun:D

Barbs
Having a barb camp nearby is a mixed blessing. We can upgrade our rJags on the cheap by fighting the white guys. But we delay our exploration for a while since right now we are just too weak to allow the barbs to roam free. We won't lose any cities to them but we will lose gold if they sack a city.

City Placement
1N is a good location. I didn't consider it because I did not count the tiles right. My counting went: AzAz, road, two and three. And that is why SecondCitySettler is where he is. :crazyeye:

But of course we can build a road W and W of AzAz!

Units
Settlers and escorts make sense. We don't have a pressing need for a third city, so maybe a granary in AzAz after the rJag, and then switching to settlers?

We need workers, too.

Land
We have green around us, but not much. Rome has more, plus cows, incense and another river. So we need to build towards Rome.

Subscribing......can't believe I missed this.

Go Jaguars!

I vote for 1N of the settler's present location, too. In fact, it might be good to use that city as our settler pump and focus on getting AzAz up to 15 spt.

How soon do we want to think about thwacking the Romans? I'm not sure I want to see legions.

It does look like Rome will be our first target and we have a deadline. We don't want Rome smart, so after we get about 10 Jags or so I think we should declare war on Rome and then pick off the attackers. If we can keep them war focused we might be able to keep them from learning and making Legions and from having their Golden Age as we fight them.

Good time for an MA also, but that is down the road a bit.

First we need about five cities or so making Jags so we can build up fast. Then we can begin to plan in detail how to take down Rome.

Agreed about declaring on Rome soon, but do we really need 5 cities before that? We could probably get 10 jags out of the capital before we get 3 settlers out of the second city.

May not, it was a ballpark kind of number. But it would let us make up our losses quicker.

True. If we can wait long enough, more cities would be good--our GA would benefit us more.

I'm about re-read everything and play my set. I've been thinking about research, and we might want to research IW. It would be greatly helpful if we knew where our enemies' iron was for pillaging purposes. I don't think it's a high priority now but it's something to think about.

OK, so it seems I'll try to get AzAz up to a 2-turn jag pump. Until we can get the tiles worked for 15gpt, it would seem that 8 is enough. I'll also look towards getting the new city set up as some kind of settler pump, but jags first would probably make more sense until we have another worker to work the tiles.

Not much to do on the pre-set.
Hit return

IBT the barb stays where he is

T1 2950BC
Sneaky moves to explore N
Nosey moves back for defence and the settler heads N

IBT Zzzz

T2 2900BC
Nosy fortifies on the mount
Sneaky keeps busting
found Hooka Huacan (rather than Teotihuacan) start Jag

IBT worker finishes mine (start road)

T3 2850BC
sneaky keeps busting fog and sees a large expanse of marsh.
AzAz is coming along well

IBT An American scout comes into view.

T4 2800BC
Send nosey (now full health) to a hill next to the barb.
New Jag moves to HooHu
Sneaky keeps busting fog
Abe is up Alph, Mason and BW
Rome will give us BW for CB and 45g (of 132)
I want to take it as it is just a matter of time before he gets CB from someone else. We are obviously backward and probably won't get a better offer. I'm not too confident about this deal though. If there is another civ near Caesar, CB isn't a high priority for them either so there might be a chance for more productive trading down the road.

IBT The Mayans are spotted heading towards Rome.

T5 2750BC
Nosey kills a barb and becomes elite:D
Maya is up Mas and Alph. I suppose I'll take the Rome deal now.
Get BW for 43g and CB
Move sneaky and find that Rome is lagging with 1 city.

IBT Zzzz

T6 2710BC
Move Sneaky into the mash to past through it.
Nosey stays put and the other Jag moves in position to attack another barb next turn.
The worker finished his road and moves back across the river to start a road to hook up HooHu, but then realize that was the wrong move.:mad:

IBT Unfortunately, the barb attacks the eJag on the hill and dies.
AzAz builds another Jag>rax (in 4)

T7 2670BC
realize I can partially salvage the worker by mining the BG West.
new Jag moves towards HooHu
Nosey stays put to heal.
Sneaky moves to a mount for vision and the other jag moves towards Rome looking for the barb camp

IBT Zzzz

T8 2630BC
fog busting. I'll start heading them back to consolidate next turn

IBT Zzzz

T9 2590BC
Start consolidating our 3 jags in the desert
Sneaky keeps busting fog. It's an interesting land mass.

IBT HooHu builds a Jag>settler (15)

T10 2550BC
Jags move to consolidate on a hill S of Rome

We have 4 rJags and 1 eJag. We have some good land to use and It would be nice to get some settlers out but it will take some time.
Everyone we know is up Masonry and Alphabet on us


http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/img_236.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/img_237.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/img_238.jpg

Roster:

CommandoBob
Phaedo - just played
CivActuary - UP!
TimBentley - on deck
Norton II - warming up
Lboogie13

Game Situation

We have two cities and 5 Jags. We are building a barracks and a settler. Both our cities are at size 2 and will not grow for 5 (AzAz) and 6 turns (Hooka/HH/HoHu).

I'm not sure that 5 Jags is enough to take out Rome, which has only one city. I do think 5 Jags are enough to track a Roman settler pair and attack that city once it is built, since it will defended by either a spear or a warrior. Or attack before it is built, if we think we need slaves more than a distant city. Sadly, our Elite Jag may promote, but we will need 4 cities to support an Army :( .

Well, that's an idea anyway; not sure if it is a good one or not.

We have uncovered most of the land in our area. Before we get too far down the road, let's plan on where to put our next few cities. We have an interesting territory to settle, with a desert in the middle of it.

Wow I haven't checked in for a few days and missed a lot. Great job on the first two turnsets guys. I agree the sooner we can take Rome the better. Maybe we declare early and pick off their attackers to distract them from a second city/expansion. I don't know just a thought.

I am the "new" guy around here, so don't be too harsh on me! I am in it to learn.

Maybe we should let the capital grow a bit before attacking the Romans. It'd be nice if we could time our GA to get us 1-turn jags, but if that's too far down the road, let's just wait until we have a stack of 10 ready to hit Rome. Also, now that we have enough jags around to deal with the barbs, we definitely need to scout some more. The sooner we know where everyone is, the better.

We have that one guy up North scouting. I didn't see the barb hut at all. Personally, I'd like to get some more cities down.

Got it, will play tonight after any discussion.

I agree with taking out Rome asap, but let's get at least one more city so our GA is a tad more effective.

Phaedo, you mentioned it, but did you start research on IW? If not I would like to start it. Also, does Rome have IW yet?

For my set it looks like I will pretty much concentrate on jag building.

I didn't start it. We are still at 0% research. I'm still waffling over the decision:blush:

IMO it would be extremely helpful to know where iron is to deny it to the AI. I will start research, but maybe not at 100%.

If we are going at Rome, we don't have to worry about depriving them of iron as we might as well just go for the city. We would have to declare war to deprive them of it anyway. In all reality, I think we can trade for iron. It would be nice to have it for future reference, but I don't think we need to know where it is for Rome. We just have to do away with Rome and our decisions won't change much if we find out their iron is on the mountain rather than the hill. We'll know if they have it when we see legionnaires. What else do we need to know? There is a good chance they could have it with all those hills and that mountain but what does that change really? Taking them out sooner than later is still preferable. Let's assume they have iron. They could maybe build 1 in your turnset CivA. We can afford some gold towards research as long as we keep pumping out Jags and work on getting the cap up to fast production in the Cap (I have come around to Norton's way of thinking). We don't have another use for the cash ATM and we should have another settler built (even if we go for a worker first) before we reach our unit limit so go crazy;) (it'll make it cheaper). The sooner we take Rome, the better IMO though. For the slaves if nothing else.

I keep forgetting that we'll have a really early Golden Age with the Jags. :sad:

With that in mind, do we want that GA with only three cities? I cring at that thought but realize it might be necessary. I would like to have five cities, if possible, before we trigger the GA taking out Rome. But not at the expense of letting Rome grow too strong.

With the GA we might face an issue in making settlers. Our production may outstrip our growth. That is, we may have a size 2 city ready to make a settler but unable to do so because the city is only at size 2 and not 3. So I would rather have our city making done (or at least halted) before the GA begins.

OK, I'll be good. No wars ;)

From the looks of things, I might not be able to get another settler out during the set - the one building in Hooka won't be done for a while, and AzAz I think we want to start producing vJags in, right?

From the looks of things, I might not be able to get another settler out during the set - the one building in Hooka won't be done for a while, and AzAz I think we want to start producing vJags in, right?
Yeah, (and this could be boring :sleep: ), for a while all we need settlers and vJags.

Pre-Turn Strategy:
Build Jags
Build Settler
Explore a little.
Work terrain.

OOB:
1 Worker
5 Jags (4r/1e)

State of the Empire:
Aztec Azeleas (2) grows in 5, Rax in 1
Hooka Huacan (2) grows in 6, Settler in 15

Americans, Romans, and Mayans are all up Masonry and Alphabet on us.

We are making 8gpt.

PreFlight:
At 100%, IW will take 20 turns to research and we will break even. I'm going to go at that for now. We've got 134 gold and can't use a cent of it right now, I hate just leaving it. I'm sure in a couple turns when Hooka grows I'll play with the lux slider more.

IBT
American scout moves back N
AzAz: Rax --> vJag (due in 3)

2510 BC Turn 31 (1)
Sneaky explores N, NE to another hill and finds a Mongol scout. Mongols are up Masonry only and have 2 cities somewhere.
Also see faint light blue borders W of sneaks, will head over and check it out.
Consolidating other Jags.

IBT
zzz

2470 BC Turn 32 (2)
Sneaky heads over toward borders but no city. Going to have to work around the lake/coast.

IBT
some scouts move, Roman worker finishes his mine and moves.

2430 BC Turn 33 (3)
The Celts show up on the Diplomacy screen, so that border is theirs. Celts are even in tech and have 2 cities.

IBT
zzz
AzAz: vJag --> vJag (due in 3)

2390 BC Turn 34 (4)
Americans have learned the Wheel.
Going to send that newest Jag over to Hooka, otherwise it will riot once it grows in 2.
Worker begins road.
Sneaky heading N, thinks he sees Mongol borders.

IBT
zzz

2350 BC Turn 35 (5)
CAII says new tech to buy - Iron Working - Maya, Mongols, Rome. Great.
AzAz grew, will work the FP since 7 shields are no better than 5 when it come to 3 turn jags.
Shifting Hooka citizens gives the settler in 7 now not 10.

IBT

2310 BC Turn 36 (6)
Hooka grows, works the BG, settler now in 4.

IBT
zzz
AzAz: vJag --> vJag (due in 3)

2270 BC Turn 37 (7)
New Jag sets off to join stack S of Rome.

IBT
zzz

2230 BC Turn 38 (8)
Worker begins mine.

IBT
Maya decide to start work on some vaguely pyramid-like structure.

2190 BC Turn 39 (9)
Sneaky finds the coast.

IBT
zzz
AzAz: vJag --> vJag (due in 3)
Hooka: Settler --> rJag (due in 8)

2150 BC Turn 40 (10)
Sneaky moves up the coast.
Where should the next city go? I'll stop here without moving the settler so we can discuss and the next player can move him on his way.


Ending Order of Battle:
1 Settler
1 Worker
8 Jags (4r/3v/1e)


State of the Empire:
Aztec Azeleas (3) grows in 2, vJag in 3
Hooka Huacan (1) grows in 4, rJag in 8


End Notes:
- We have 134 gold in the bank still. We can get IW in 6 turns at +1gpt, 5 turns at -1gpt, and 4 turns at -2gpt. I would recommend we get it ASAP to know where the iron is.

- We have a stack of 5 Jags on a hill S of Rome, with 1 more on the way. I think we would need a couple more to ensure the destruction of Rome - which still only has 1 city but looks like it was reduced to size 1, so I think they built a settler.

- Our settler has not moved. I figured we needed discussion on where the next city goes.


And the file
>>FILE<< (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/97659/CBob02_BC_2150_CA.SAV).

Here is our empire
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/97659/Cbob02-2150.JPG

I'm not sure where to put the settler.

My vote is to attack Rome asap. My worry is that we are boxed in down in the South and I don't want Rome confining us to our little corner. Not only that but I don't fancy fending off hordes of legionaires heading south a little later in the game.

Got it. I should play tomorrow.
I don't know how well defended cities are on monarch at this stage, but 6 vet jags would defeat 2 reg spears about 59% of the time according to Offa's simulator. We should keep their pop rushing in mind. Hopefully their warriors will go out to attack us. It might be nice to get a couple of slaves (I'm not optimistic about capturing their second city rather than razing it). Plenty of roads will be needed.
A city by the sugar or fur might be good, although getting water to the plains might be annoying.
I'm not a fan of regular units; I don't know if a chop for a barracks would be good. Edit: Blue dot looks good.
So far there's 11 cities for the 6 known civs, so barbs will pop up soon (it's once there's 2 cities per player).
Looks like a 3fer or something like that might be available. Maybe writing would be useful next so eventually we could convince the AIs to send their units against each other.

Dot Map 2150 BC
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/CBob02/2150BC_DotMapTrimmed.jpg

This is just a quick dot map aimed at moving closer to Rome. Blue Dot would be the next city; it snags two sugars for fast growth and rather quickly be making 3 turn Jags. Pink Dot might borrow one or both the sugars from Blue Dot, once Blue Dot gets to size 6. Pink Dot also gets the oasis. Light Blue Dot puts us next to Rome. The yellow-orange lines are roads.

Blue and Pink are also on the coast for extra commerce. Pink and Light Blue are on hills for defense.

From AzAz to Light Blue Dot is 12 tiles, all to be roaded, so a new Jag in AzAz is two turns away from the front line city.

Other Stuff
Good job exploring, CA. Next time your turns will be a bit more exciting, I'm sure. :D

AzAz is netting 5 shields per turn and will grow to 4 in two turns. Let's build a worker next; it will take two turns and complete just as AzAz grows to 4. And then go back to making vJags. We need another worker to help improve around AzAz (the BG for sure needs to be mined and roaded) and to mine the cow near Hooku while Worker01 builds roads northwards.

Good job exploring, CA. Next time your turns will be a bit more exciting, I'm sure. :D :) Actually, after all those exciting turns in CBob01 it was nice to have some peace for 10 turns!

Blue dot looks good for production and the next city. By the time we get to light blue dot though, we could be reconsidering as I think Rome should be attacked before then.

Blue dot looks good to me, too, but we might need one more tile worked for 3-turn jags depending on whether we lose the 5th shield to waste. Another thing to keep in mind is that since we're agri, we can actually make those desert tiles useful by irrigating them (as good as irrigated plains). Speaking of which, maybe we ought to irrigate to the cow rather than mining it.

I agree with CBob that we need another worker--in fact, I think we need two so we can maximize the capital's shield output as quickly as possible. Let's build them in HH since we don't have a barracks there. I'm not sure whether they should come before or after a third city, though.

Another thing to keep in mind is that since we're agri, we can actually make those desert tiles useful by irrigating them (as good as irrigated plains).


Agriculture, what a concept.

First time with an AGI civ, I've got to keep that food bonus in mind. :D

I agree with CBob that we need another worker--in fact, I think we need two so we can maximize the capital's shield output as quickly as possible. Let's build them in HH since we don't have a barracks there. I'm not sure whether they should come before or after a third city, though.
Well, we can sneak one out of AzAz pretty easily and still be able to crank out 3 turn vJags beginning in two turns, so lets get that one now and a third from HH after it finishes the current build.

Agreed. Also, I meant fourth city since we've already got a settler ready to build a third.

Well, we can sneak one out of AzAz pretty easily and still be able to crank out 3 turn vJags beginning in two turns, so lets get that one now and a third from HH after it finishes the current build.Plus we can put off any size 4 unhappiness issues in AzAz for another growth cycle. I like it.

Plus we can put off any size 4 unhappiness issues in AzAz for another growth cycle. I like it.
Bingo!

I wished I'da thunk it.

I finished the preturn and Rome valued the wheel less than I'd like (also apparently America is close to finishing IW), so they got more of our gold than I'd like, so we're down to 52g. I see no iron near Rome, but there is one by our capital. Writing would currently take 20 turns with -3gpt so with more cities and/or a GA that would be fine. However the rest of the team hasn't mentioned whether they would like alliances or catapults (math also would be 20 turns, but I don't think cats are necessary) or to save money (I don't think that's necessary), so I'll continue tomorrow.
If there's an opportunity to capture the Roman settler, would that be desirable? Probably the Roman worker can be captured as well.
Our stack already has 3 reg jags, so I think switching both our cities to a worker would be good.

I finished the preturn and Rome valued the wheel less than I'd like (also apparently America is close to finishing IW), so they got more of our gold than I'd like, so we're down to 52g. I see no iron near Rome, but there is one by our capital.Rome with no iron is good. That makes me worry less.
Writing would currently take 20 turns with -3gpt so with more cities and/or a GA that would be fine. However the rest of the team hasn't mentioned whether they would like alliances or catapults (math also would be 20 turns, but I don't think cats are necessary) or to save money (I don't think that's necessary), so I'll continue tomorrow.Getting Writing for the alliances might be good, but then we could save a little cash - we would need to establish embassies.
If there's an opportunity to capture the Roman settler, would that be desirable? Probably the Roman worker can be captured as well.If we are ready for war that is fine with me, but I think I'd feel safer with a couple more Jags before we are ready. EDIT: And I almost forgot - war pretty much means our GA - are we ready for that too?
Our stack already has 3 reg jags, so I think switching both our cities to a worker would be good.Probably good - will the worker in Hooka complete after growth though? After that, maybe a chop for a rax in Hooka?

The freebies are a good option. Declaring will just get them to send the units they have against us and we could take care of our worker issues for a while. We might not be set up to declare war and take their cap in one fell swoop, but if we gain from an early war, why not? I haven't thought out the tech issue fully yet, but after math (and I can see the value of Writing), what more do we even want?

Rome actually had two settlers, so we got 5 slaves from them, although the cruel RNG took 3 units from us.

2150(0): switch both cities to workers
Double checked the placement of blue dot and noticed and added the edit to my previous post was in the wrong place.
buy IW from Rome for 55g
buy the wheel from Celts for IW, 10g
buy alphabet from Rome for TW, 39g
sell alphabet to Celts for masonry, 22g
I wouldn't be surprised if America got IW next turn
Most notably, there's iron by our capital (don't road it, by the time we got a financial benefit we'd have our GA and have to disconnect it) and none near Rome
Send the jags north to see if there might be an opportunity to pick off the settler
start research on writing at 100%

2110(1): spot a barb camp in the northish region
extra food in HH; interestingly hiring a scientist in AA is good

IBT: AA worker->jag

2070(2): disperse barb camp
Rome's top defender is a nonfortified reg spear

IBT: Rome has two settlers!
Our palatial cave has a nice entrance now

2030(3): vet jag promotes to elite killing barb
Found Something non-Aztec, start on barracks

1990(4): Mongols have mysticism, who cares

IBT: AA jag->jag
HH worker->rax

1950(5): declare war on Rome
kill warrior to capture settler
3 jags do a total of 2hp of damage to archer (on grassland), the elite retreated
capture worker mining the hill

1910(6): zzz

IBT: AA jag->jag (2 turn jags :))

1870(7): now 1 jag takes out the 3hp archer to capture the settler without getting hurt
lux to 10%

IBT: Celts start Pyramids

1830(8): zzz

IBT: AA jag->jag

1790(9): spot orange borders

1750(10): elite jag attacks warrior on hill and dies doing 1 damage

Notes: there's a barb camp near Something non-Aztec, so that's what that jag to the east of it is looking for
AA could get to 15spt at size 6, so would build a jag every turn for 8 turns
I forgot to rename the workers
There's 5 jags near Rome, I'd prefer a few more before attacking

Good work Tim.

My vote doesn't change for attacking Rome. It is still pop. 1 with a regular spear as the first unit showing. I agree with Tim that we need a few more jags but let's not wait too long.

Looks like I'm up, then. I'll play tonight--if I think we're ready to attack Rome, I will, but I agree that we need more than 5 jags to do the job.

I'm on turn 5. Haven't moved on Rome yet but won't wait much longer. We just learned writing, and I have two questions:
1. What should we research next? Math? Or should we go for philosophy and hope we're the first to it (taking math as our free tech)? 3 other civs have writing, so maybe we should play it safe and just go directly for math. It's more costly than philosophy, though, so if we do succeed, it'll save us a few turns of research.
2. We can trade writing to the Americans for Mysticism and 75 gpt, or we can just get 111 gpt without the tech. Everyone but us has mysticism, so I'm inclined to take the cash.

I'll wait a couple of hours, then proceed as I think best if I hear nothing. Right now, I'm thinking of trading writing to America for 111gpt, then running max research toward philosophy (10 turns, or the rest of our GA) and hoping that we get it first and can trade it, possibly for math.

First off, the save: 150583

Summary: Rome's out of the picture, we're 3 turns away from philosophy (which it looks as if we'll get first), and our stack of jags is coming along nicely. Unfortunately, my impatience cost us a little bit, as you'll see.

Preflight: everything looks good, so nothing
IBT: AA jag->jag (2); HH barracks->jag (3);SnA barracks->jag (5)
1:jag kills barb; 2 jags start moving north
IBT:---
2: we meet England--they're up mysticism and have a worker for sale; we can afford neither
IBT:
-Roman warrior dies attacking jag (1-0); Roman archer appears
-AA jag->jag (2)
3: vet jag kills roman archer, is redlined but promotes to elite (2-0); reg jag move to cover
IBT: HH jag->jag (3)
4: continue gathering jags
IBT:
-Romans wanna talk--nope!
-another archer shows up
-writing comes in, start on philisophy (10 turns at 70%, -6 gpt)
-AA jag->jag (2), SnA jag->jag (3)
5:
-sell writing to America for 111 gold
-an embassy in America cost 41 gold--we pay, since we can afford it and still don't know exactly where America is
Here's Washington:
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p196/Norton_II/washington.jpg
IBT: Roman archer dies attacking jag (2-0)
6:
-we have 8 jags ready to attack Rome, so we attack; results: 2 jags kill spears, 2 jags die, 1 jag retreats, and--
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p196/Norton_II/rome.jpg
Also,
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p196/Norton_II/dejavu.jpg
I seem to be in the habit of conquering Rome in SGs. :D
-after Rome is captured, gpt is at -2, support costs at 0
-trade writing to England for myst and 10 gold
IBT: AA jag->jag (2);HH jag->jag (3); palace expansion!
7: nothing, but notice Celts have iron hooked up--they should be our next target
IBT: SnA jag->jag (3)
8: notice barb warrior next to 3 slaves after all units have moved! :mad: :blush:
IBT:
-barb kills 3 slaves
-AA jag->jag (2)
9: jag kills barb, then finds barb camp (insert comments about barn doors and stolen horses here)
IBT: HH jag->jag (3); England starts Colossus
10:
-jag kills barb, loots 25 gold from camp
-reg jag kills barb in jungle, promotes to vet
-swap some tiles around in AA--1-turn jags for rest of GA! Too bad that's only 5 turns.

City status:
Aztec Azaleas (6): growth in 9, jag in 1, 15 spt
Hooka Huacan (3): growth in 4, granary in 9, 7 spt
Something not Aztec (2): growth in 3, jag in 1
Rome (1): growth in 3, worker in 6
Military status:
-5 workers (3 natives, 2 slaves)
-16 jaguar warriors
-support cost: 3 gpt

Notes:
-I switched production in HH to a granary; I wanted to focus on jags during our GA, but once that's over, it'd be nice to get a few settlers out of HH.
-I have 2 jags scouting and 14 available for our SoD. We probably shouldn't go after the Celts with fewer than 20, and we should have that many within 6-7 turns.
-Philosophy's due in 3, and we'll almost certainly get it first. What should our free tech be?

Some screenshots:

Our empire:
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p196/Norton_II/us.jpg

The other guys:
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p196/Norton_II/them1.jpg

The other other guys:
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p196/Norton_II/them2.jpg

We've neither located nor met the Ottomans. I have a bad feeling that they're on an island.

Jaguars have got their first kill! Congratulations :goodjob:

Roster:

CommandoBob- on deck
Phaedo - warming up
CivActuary
TimBentley
Norton II - just played
Lboogie13- UP!

Game Situation
One down, six to go!

Judging from the mini-map, it looks like we've got a one dimensional war (just Jags) and a one front war (whoever is next to us, in this case the Celts.)

Government: can we win this in Despotism or do we need to consider Monarchy? I don't see us having large cities, since a rather small town can produce 5spt and make 3 turn Jags. But we will need a lot of cities doing that.

If we get a Free Tech with Philosophy, I'm all for making it a government tech (Monarchy or Republic) and switching soon. But I would not trade the tech right away. I would wait until the turn before we attack the Celts and sell it to them for all their gold and as many of their techs as possible. On the IBT, the Celts will change governments and descend into anarchy, while we start attacking.

We need to road to Rome quickly, in order to connect to the Incense, unless another luxury is closer. We have a second fur near NE of AzAz, but I don't think we need it just yet. It is only trade bait anyway.

After we get our 20 Jags into their Stack of Doom, we may want to consider spitting out some settlers from AzAz. Right now it can produce a settler in 2 turns. I would plan on making settlers until the city was again down to size 6 and making 1 turn Jags. That would let us boost our city count and production efforts and not disrupt the war effort greatly. I'm counting on the fact that by then the other cities will be producing Jags to feed into the northern conquests. But only time will tell.

But we also need workers to make roads to the front lines. Our troops move fast, but we need roads to keep the forces strong and on the offense. So perhaps just one settler and some workers instead of just settlers.

lurker's comment: You might want to take into considerations the respective unit support of the governments, since you're going to have a massive number of jags.

Government: can we win this in Despotism or do we need to consider Monarchy? I don't see us having large cities, since a rather small town can produce 5spt and make 3 turn Jags. But we will need a lot of cities doing that.

Hard to say right now, but how much would monarchy help us? Losing the despotism penalty would be nice, but losing despotism's unit support wouldn't.

If we get a Free Tech with Philosophy, I'm all for making it a government tech (Monarchy or Republic) and switching soon. But I would not trade the tech right away. I would wait until the turn before we attack the Celts and sell it to them for all their gold and as many of their techs as possible. On the IBT, the Celts will change governments and descend into anarchy, while we start attacking.

Unfortunately, no government techs are available to us right now--we don't have CoL or poly, and neither does anyone else. I thought about getting one of those before heading to philosophy, but given the number of civs that already have writing, and given how much our research will drop off after our GA, I thought it unwise to put off philo any longer. Maybe we could get CoL or poly, then research a government tech. If we don't do that, we should get math instead, in case we need cats soon.

After we get our 20 Jags into their Stack of Doom, we may want to consider spitting out some settlers from AzAz. Right now it can produce a settler in 2 turns. I would plan on making settlers until the city was again down to size 6 and making 1 turn Jags. That would let us boost our city count and production efforts and not disrupt the war effort greatly. I'm counting on the fact that by then the other cities will be producing Jags to feed into the northern conquests. But only time will tell.

Maybe one settler out of the capital would be good, but we're only getting 1-turn jags now because of our GA--we'll need a higher population after that. Besides, with a granary and an irrigated cow, we can make Hooka Huacan into a 6-turn settler pump, which can give us 3-turn workers as well (though we'll need to limit production to 4 spt in that case).

On the government issue, have you guys considered (gasp) Feudalism? Support of 5/2/1 would support a lot of Jags with small towns. (But extra units cost 3 . . . ) It's available pretty early. And besides, you're agricultural (IIRC), which would speed recovery from pop-rushing.

On the government issue, have you guys considered (gasp) Feudalism? Support of 5/2/1 would support a lot of Jags with small towns. (But extra units cost 3 . . . ) It's available pretty early. And besides, you're agricultural (IIRC), which would speed recovery from pop-rushing.

Y'know, feudalism just might be worth a try, as long as we build plenty of towns. The only thing that worries me is the war weariness; same as republic but with no commerce bonus. If we lose lots of jags, our economy could crash pretty quickly.

I like despotism for us. I also like cats for the next tech but after that I think we might want to shut down research. We are just speeding up research fro everyone by doing our own and trading stuff around. Faster research works against us. The quicker the AI gets to Feudalism, the faster they get pikes.

War weariness might be a problem, but I don't think so. Our units move fast and can cover a lot of ground. With Feudalism we just have to keep our population down, which we could do with a lot of workers and pop rushing.

Losing a town is really bad when calculating WW. If we don't lose any cities I would expect our wars to be rather short and brief.

But we have to move quickly to steamroller over the Celts and then continue around the landscape doing the same thing. I like the idea of Feudalism for its unit support. With cheap units and a lot of cities we should be almost unstoppable.

Just remember that is we have feud, so will everyone else. The longer everyone stays in the AA, the better for us. Rushing towards a government in the MA is not I think an ideal strategy. We could switch when we eventually there but I think we want to slow down research which would mean stopping research and holding off on trades.

I like despotism for us. I also like cats for the next tech but after that I think we might want to shut down research.... The quicker the AI gets to Feudalism, the faster they get pikes.
Jags vs. Pikes, ouch.

Unit support vs. stronger defenders.

Stonger defenders works against us as we will have to build more units to attack and kill Pikes. That makes our overall task harder. I think I would rather pay upkeep on 'extra' units, knowing that the amount of upkeep would vary from turn to turn due to city growth and military losses.

Math as a next tech sounds good, to get catapults. They will cost 30 shields, so only the bigger cities will able to build them in 5 turns or less. They are also slower, so we will have to concentrate our workers on making roads for them to use, all the way to the front lines. And don't forget that cities make instant roads, so we can settle and road to the front lines.

Thanks for responding Cbob:)

I realized that I haven't really put my thought forward as much as make a few comments. I apologize. So, in light of that, here are my feeling about tech.

First, I am not averse to Feudalism as a gov't. I just don't want to rush to get there.

As I see it, our challenge is to win the game as soon as possible. this doesn't just mean time and turns, but tech pace also. The longer the game goes, the slimmer our odds get (granted at monarch, we can out manage the AI to overcome those difficulties but that counts as a strategic loss).

Obviously, we all know we need a slew of Jags to win this thing. We need them because we will need about a 4:1ish ratio to beat swords and spears. The longer the game stays in the AA, the better for us. This means a couple of things:

1st, it means that we want to kill the research pace as much as possible. Trading techs to Civs that don't have them speeds up the pace. It keeps the leaders researching new stuff and allows the lagers to research new techs and everyone gets smartter quicker. Yes, we want Cats (I love cats), but right now, we can't afford to build them so it is a wasted tech for us. I'm not saying don't research it, but we don't need to get to it in record time. The other way to slow down research is to get the AI into a war economy. We may want to think about taking an AW strategy with exploring units. It is a bit of a gamble as it will mean more units, but maybe we can focus on luxes and try to buy alliances. The extra gold will be far more helpful to us than techs we don't need.

2nd, the mass of units we need will eat into our UU. BUT, if we are not researching, we will have the economy to support the extra cost. The extra free unit from Feud is fine, but we can afford to pay the extra upkeep if we aren't researching. It does mean we need a bunch of cities. We are getting on the settler builds now and we need to keep that up. HH has great potential to be a pump and IMO should stay that way. Once we get 5ish cities as 1-2 turn Jag pumps, I think we should go for a cxc pattern. That will easily cover our UU and give us great cash.

War-wise, I think we should concentrate our eventual artillery on defense. We can take out attacking units, defend with a minimum of units and save our monster stacks for attack (and not slow them down with artillery).

It's a new variant for me but that's how I see it. I think we can trade luxes (for cash) fairly effectively and usefully but tech 2 fers, actually hurt us in the long run.

I'd get math as the free tech and save money for embassies and alliances. For example it would be good to get an alliance with the Mongols against the Celts.

I realized that I haven't really put my thought forward as much as make a few comments. I apologize.
That goes for me, too. I haven't taken the time to really speak on what my tech thoughts were. They've been sort of fuzzy, and I got lazy.

Having said that, I'll just second what you said, and add to it some goals and objectives for the next few turn sets.

(I don't have the game open. Mrs. CommandoBob is in a house painting mood, so C3C is safely protected in the underwear drawer as we paint, rearrange and sort the stuff/junk in the schoolroom/office where the computer and I live.)

Our Needs
We need embassies with some of the world, if we don't have them already. Don't know who (yet).

We need to get keep the world at war to keep the tech pace low. This means Military Alliances (and we must have an embassy to make an MA) on the far side of the world. It could also mean we MA with whoever lives on the far side of the Celts when we get ready to make war with the Celts.

We need more cities. Each city lets us 1) support more units and 2) make more units.

We need more workers to connect the cities and the newly conquered cities. Slaves will help, and are a nice bonus. But we should not base our plans (right now) on having slaves available to make roads to our forward cities.

We need veteran Jaguars, no more regulars.

We don't need to go to war with the Celts right away.

We need to find the Ottomans.

We don't need to make more Jags in the near future.

We don't need to be real smart. We thrive in an ignorant world.

We don't need to make an active war until we at least 3 vJags being produced each turn. (Yeah, that will be tough and might be unrealistic. But let's keep it for now.)

We need more native luxuries, to keep our people happy.

Our Plans
Before we make war, we need to be able to out produce the AI on Jags. We expect rather heavy losses and we need to be able to replace those losses quickly, so that the AI won't be able to make us retreat and capture our cities. We got lucky with Rome. I doubt we will be so lucky with the Celts.

So, let's figure on having from 5 to 7, (I would like 10) cities before we start banging on the Celts.

We start that war with at least 20 Jags (we have 16 now). With 20 Jags we roughly figure on defeating 3 or 4 Celts and taking a city. Then we have to rebuild.
So maybe we bump that number higher, to 30 or 40, before we attack? Then we could attack, capture and defend (rather well) on one turn. And not be too weak on the second turn.

We'll need at least two, or maybe three, settler pumps.

We'll need to plan carefully where our next 3 to 4 settlers will go. We have some good land around Rome and we need to take advantage of it. Around AzAz we'll need some irrigation to help everyone grow faster. I don't think we need aqueducts. With six citizens working we should be able to net 5 shields per turn in most places, giving us 3 turns Jags.

With this map our route of conquest is easy. We just keep marching. We might face some seaborne invasions, but with several Jags on the way to the front each turn, this 2 unit intrusions can be dealt with quickly.

Summary
This is just the high points. I don't think I've covered everything, so this plan is in no way the last word on how we will proceed. We'll need to fine tune the details as we move forward, and perhaps even change some things.

Let's try to discuss these things before Lboogie13 plays his turns. The clearer the plans, the easier the turns.

I think perhaps it's a mistake to wait until you are ready to invade the Celts before declaring war; one of the main advantages of a fast unit like the Jag is it's ability to pillage.

If you used a vanguard of Jags to pillage Celt lands, it would soften them up in advance of your invasion.

Consider: When you pillage their roads, you hit their economy (slows the tech pace, hits unit support); when you pillage their mines you hurt their production capacity (so you face fewer units, and fewer Settlers are produced so you have fewer cities to take down).

I also agree with Tim that an optimum strategy would be to foster war between as many civs as possible.

Oh, and good luck - this is an interesting variant.

Consider this a got it but waiting for more comments before I play my turn. I will work on a settler or two. Where should I put the next cities?

Consider this a got it but waiting for more comments before I play my turn. I will work on a settler or two. Where should I put the next cities?
Here is a dot map I made before we conquered Rome.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/CBob02/2150BC_DotMapTrimmed.jpg

As you can see it is somewhat out of date. Norton II's screen shot of Rome is also helpful here. It is just a few posts back.

My dotmap was based on the idea that we would build towards Rome. Rome is now gone and so that dot map is almost no good, but it does serve as a common reference point.

One new city needs to go on the grassland that is 1SW of Light Blue Dot. Placed here, this city can work the mined grassland that Rome improved but the city of Rome cannot work. Rome (the city) will only be able to work the tiles that are immediately adjacent to the city for a very long time, perhaps the rest of the game. We plan to conquer and culutral expansion is not very critical to our plans. Thus, unless we built a temple or library in Rome, Rome will not be able to work the mined grassland this is SE-S of the city. This new city, placed just SW of the Light Blue Dot, has that tile in its initial nine tiles and can work that tile right away.

The other new city will also be on a grassland, the grassland that is E-SE of the Light Blue Dot. This tile will have 2 cows and two bonus grassland in its inital nine tiles. Cows add +2 food and +1 shield and the BG is +1 shield also, before we add mines. Once these three tiles were mined and we were at size 4, this city would produce 9 shields per turn (before corruption), probably 7 or 8 shields per turn after corruption, so this place could be cranking out vJags every other turn with no problem, while at size 4. Not bad at all.

These are not the only places to build cities, but they look to be the places where we get the biggest and quickest return on our settler investment.

To create a dot map is fairly simple. Open the game and center the map on the area you are interested in. Click Alt and Print-Screen together. That will put a copy of the screen into the short term storage known as the Clipboard. Now open up Paint or some other image editing software and paste the image into that software and save it. Come back later and add lines and dots and other notation. Uplaod that new image to an image hosting web site (and there are several that are free), past the URL into Image tags in your post and then show it for all the world to see.

Thanks for the tip c-bob. If I get a settler I think the first spot you mentioned, SW of the light blue dot, seems like a good place.

I will wait a few more hours for more comments and then begin playing. However, Mrs. Lboogie13 may decide we need to spend time together on a Saturday. In that case, I will probably start game play tomorrow.

Well gents I waited for a while but here it is....

Pre-flight: My goal was to found a new city, establish an embassy or two and attack the Celts if possible.

1475- AZ AZ is on a 1 turn jag cycle, will pop out a few more and possibly go for a settler. I started moving workers to build a literal warpath to Celtic territory. Move a few jags toward Celts.

1450 - zzzzz

IBT - We get philosophy. I chose math next for the cats and we get that, research set to maps for right of passage agreements

1425 - moving more jags and building the warpath

1400 - AZ AZ gives me a settler, jag disbursed a barb camp and we pick up some cash

1375 - zzzz, killing a wandering barb

1350 - Our stupid analysts have reported the end of our GA

1325 - move into Celt territory, they are up horseback on us for tech, stack of doom outside Lungdum defended by a regular spear. I declare war and attack. It took 5 jags to kill the spear, 3 died, 1 retreated and the last one killed the spear and gets promoted. We auto raze Lungdum, much to our military advisor's joy.

1300 - set a few jags who attacked Lungdum to restore health and move the rest closer to next Celtic city. On a side note we lose a jag trying to disperse a barb camp.

1275 - Found a new city Just South of Rome located, well, just south of Rome in a spot suggested by C-bob. I set it to produce a jag in 10. I figure the next player could change it if need be. Disperse a barb camp and pick up some cash. We establish an embassy with the Mongols, who are right next to Celtic territory. They are not interested in an alliance though. :sad:

Here is a shot of the Mongol capital though.

150689

1250- Granary in Hooka is done, I set it to jag in 3 turns. Again, it can be changed if necessary. I attack a regular Celtic archer blockign the road to Alesia, next Celt target, with a jag and win. Alesia is guarded by a reg spear but my hunch is there is a second unit there or on the way. There are five units outside Alesia with 2 more one turn away and others closing in.

150688

Post-flight: I think we are poised to take down the Celts next city. The workers have made some progress in building a road up to the Celts. I should have created more workers. I was torn between focusing on Jags versus workers and losing population (and thus production) in the short term. If we want to have any shot of taking a city without needing 100 jags to kill a single defender, speed is obviously the key. Well here is a shot of our empire as it stands.

150690

I tried my best and IMHO I think it wasn't too bad.

1325 - move into Celt territory, they are up horseback on us for tech, stack of doom outside Lungdum defended by a regular spear. I declare war and attack..



Bang goes your rep....

lurker's comment:IMO they get an attitude hit, not rep. Right?

lurker's comment:IMO they get an attitude hit, not rep. Right?



Not so; it was ROP Rape.

another lurker's comment:But they weren't in ROP agreement? :confused:

another lurker's comment:But they weren't in ROP agreement? :confused:



It's not necessary that they were, unfortunately; if you declare war while inside AI territory, it is viewed as ROP rape, regardless.

2 comments:
1. Need the save.
2. We shouldn't worry about our ROP rep. After all, we're not trying to make friends in this one, and it won't affect our ability to make alliances.

I agree the lack of rep doesn't hurt us too much. It might make alliances more pricey though. Slowly making our way to maps is fine but lets start hoarding some gold.

BTW Norton, good call on keeping AzAz up in production. I think pushing for 1-turn Jags from the Cap initially and then other cities is the road to victory.

We need more settlers but HH seems well positioned for that. I'll try to post a dot map but spacing our first cities more will be helpful if they can get up to 1-2 turns Jags.

I agree the lack of rep doesn't hurt us too much. It might make alliances more pricey though. Slowly making our way to maps is fine but lets start hoarding some gold.

Will it? ROP rep is totally separate from trading rep unless there's another per-turn trade involved in the ROP, which wasn't the case here since we only violated an implicit ROP.
BTW Norton, good call on keeping AzAz up in production. I think pushing for 1-turn Jags from the Cap initially and then other cities is the road to victory.
Thanks. Unfortunately, now that our GA is over, we'll have to settle for 2-turn jags from the capital until the population goes up a little.

We need more settlers but HH seems well positioned for that. I'll try to post a dot map but spacing our first cities more will be helpful if they can get up to 1-2 turns Jags.
Agreed, and unless we need lots of settlers fast, it'll have to be our only settler factory for a while. As for spacing, CxxC should get us plenty of 2-3 turn jags--I doubt any city besides the capital will be able to give us 1-turn jags.

How does this look for a tentative plan? Red> Blue> Green?
Green requires some chops and mines on the hills and Blue would need water everywhere but I think they could get up to 2-turn Jags with some 'ducts.

My city placement can use some work but it something to work with.

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/Jagsdotmapbig.jpg

City Builds
How does this look for a tentative plan? Red> Blue> Green?
Uh, Green Dot was just built by Lboogie13 in 1275 BC. It goes by the clever non-Aztec name of Just South of Rome.

What if we build Pink/Yellow before Red/Blue. Pink/Yellow look to be more prodcutive than Red/Blue. They are also further from HH. If we settle Pink/Yellow first and then Red/Blue, all should become productive at about the same time.

I see two Dyes in the forest NE of Pink/Yellow. I also see the marshes and a quick glance tells me it will take 2 marsh roads to get those Dyes. But with Dyes we would have three luxuries and could let some of our MPs join the war.

ROP Rape
I'm not sure of the long term effects of declaring war on an AI while you have units inside the AI's borders. I know the AI doesn't like it, so I try to avoid it. Even having naval units inside the wrong border when declaring a war is considered by the AI to be bad manners. (Picky AI).

I don't think this consideration is given when an AI declares war on another AI. Just when a living player does it.

The Save
This does need to be either linked (see Upload File) at the bottom of the page or attached to a post.

Roster
I need to be skipped (lots of painting and sorting to do) so the Roster looks like this:

CommandoBob -skipped
Phaedo - UP!
CivActuary - on deck
TimBentley - warming up
Norton II
Lboogie13 - just played

City Builds

Uh, Green Dot was just built by Lboogie13 in 1275 BC. It goes by the clever non-Aztec name of Just South of Rome.


Right:blush: . Sorry about that. I was working off Norton's last save

Doh. Sorry I was trying to post in a hurry before the wife got home. Here is the save.

150757

What is the crap about RoP "rape"?

1. There was no RoP agreement.
2. I wasn't in Celtic territory when I declared war. The city I attacked was small, not much cultural influence. I could see it defended by spear, moved in and attacked.
3. Using the word "rape" for a video game is a bit extreme, don't you think?

Doh. Sorry I was trying to post in a hurry before the wife got home. Here is the save.

150757

What is the crap about RoP "rape"?

1. There was no RoP agreement.
2. I wasn't in Celtic territory when I declared war. The city I attacked was small, not much cultural influence. I could see it defended by spear, moved in and attacked.
3. Using the word "rape" for a video game is a bit extreme, don't you think?

This is what made us think you were in Celtic territory when you declared:

1325 - move into Celt territory, they are up horseback on us for tech, stack of doom outside Lungdum defended by a regular spear. I declare war and attack..

So basically it was just a misunderstanding.
Now for points 1 and 3:
1. There doesn't have to be an explicit RoP agreement in place for you to ruin your RoP reputation. If you declare war on a civ when you have units in that civ's territory (I'm not sure if currags or unloaded galleys count, and I don't think workers or scouts do), you RoP reputation is ruined with that civ and with everyone who knows about your actions. That means you won't be able to sign RoP agreements, but it won't affect your trading reputation.
3. "Rape" is just used for its alliteration with "RoP". If you don't like that particular phrase, you can just say "RoP abuse".

It is not exactly fair, but the AI places a higher value on you keeping your word with the AI than the AI places on keeping their word with you.

But if something happens that 'breaks' your word, even if it wasn't your fault, you are the guilty party.

For instance, you and Rome share the same landmass but your cities are not connected, but both of you have harbors and galleys. So you sell Rome some excess Wines for some gold per turn. Midway through this 20 turn agreement India declares war on you. One of India's galleys ends it's turn in a coastal tile between you and Rome, thus blocking the trade route with you and Rome.

The Romans blame you, not the Indians. And they will whine to any AI they meet about how you could not keep your word.

Which means that for the rest of the game, you will not be able to offer gold-per-turn deals to the AI. The AIs may offer you a gpt deal, but if it is your offer to them it will be refused.

I have a fuzzy knowledge of how trading and reputation go together. In the War Academy are several articles on how all that works behind the scenes.

The way I use what I know is quite simple. I don't make a lot of gold-per-turn deals. And I keep track of what the deals are (easy to do with MapStat and CivAssist II).

Getting back to business,

- I agree with slowing the tech pace down. This game will be won in the AA - if it gets to the MA we will be the ones at a disadvantage. Because of that, we should stay in despotism for the duration. Sure the unit support would be nicer, but we should be establishing enough cities along our path to be ok. Plus we won't have worker support after a while once we have enough slaves.

- It was just a random thought, but after establishing embassies, what about fostering a war between our 2 farthest away adversaries? Since we wouldn't be getting to them for a while, it would have the effect of slowing down their research and using up some of their troops (against someone other than us).

Fascinating game. Good luck to you all!

- It was just a random thought, but after establishing embassies, what about fostering a war between our 2 farthest away adversaries? Since we wouldn't be getting to them for a while, it would have the effect of slowing down their research and using up some of their troops (against someone other than us).

If we can do it we should. Getting everyone into war economies is the best way I can think of slowing the research rate down.

Got it. I'll look at the save, post a plan later tonight and play tomorrow.

Well, we don't seem to have anything to tempt America into war with anyone. What if we declared against far civs and let them walk to us. Maybe by the time they get to us and we kill a couple of units we can pick up some gold. In the meantime, they will be spending their coin on war and might get aggressive with their neighbours after we sue for peace.

If we want to get civs into war with each other, we will need embassies (we can afford 1 now). Basically, we need a lot more cash.

It looks like my set will be trying to get settlers out and develop land. We are at -6gpt now. More cities will help. I forgot to check the Military adviser.

I'll be out until Monday.

What if we declared against far civs and let them walk to us...

If we want to get civs into war with each other, we will need embassies (we can afford 1 now). Basically, we need a lot more cash.

Let's kick this idea around some and see how good it is.

Declare war with two faraway civs. They walk to us, but we don't suffer any WW. Right about the time we see their units getting close, we make peace with one and then MA with that civ against the other civ.

This will keep these two focused on war and not science, while we gooble up our neighbors. Once these two start fighting each other they will weaken each other as our units draw closer by conquests.

Just a quick brainflash, not too well thought, but good enough to warrant further discussion.

I think we will have to kill a couple of units to get a reasonable peace, but with distant Civs I can't really see that we would be in much danger. We are very mobile and they will be if they have horses. I think it will slow down the tech pace and keep them poor. We are building a military anyway so I think it could work. I'd like to have more input though before I go starting wars. We have to be a bit concerned about getting dogpiled but I don't think it's that big a deal. It's basically short term AW with the possibility of a convenient peace.

Sounds good to me, but the first order of business is to rebuild our stack--our jags are a little scattered right now. HH should be building a settler instead of a jag, and we need to make a specialist there to prevent riots (don't need a clown; a taxman or geek will do). Also, looking at Phaedo's earlier dotmap, I think we need to pack our cities in a little bit more than that. We don't need many shields to make good jag pumps, but it'll be easier to get enough shields if our cities are closer to the capital (less waste).

I agree with going to war with a far away civ. The AI will trickle some units in our use a lot of resources trying to build a stack. Either way it should slow down tech research. Plus, I think we can handle a few units behind our lines if the AI makes a naval landing.

This early I wouldn't expect any naval landings, I would hope.

@ Norton: I agree with the settler change and consolidating our force. I don't think we need to wait too long before a declaration though. Jags are speedy. A question though, why do we want to pack the cities closer? The only units we will be building have 2 movement so defense isn't an issue. We could space cities at CxxxxC and it would be the same as CxxC in a normal game. I'm not married to the map but our borders will be consolidated and we expand our area while maxing our OCN.

P.S. I'll play in about 10 hours unless people want me to wait a bit more

Have a little look around. Change AzAz to a settler and Rome and JSoR to raxes. No point in making rJags.
Looking to get a city down (settler in 4) to claim the fur.

We currently have 21 Jags, 4 workers and 2 slaves

I'll post this now and then start the set.

Edit: England looks like a very safe enemy, although Maya is the leader at this time.
EDIT 2: HH changed to settler not AzAz

I just finished turn 3 and before going on, I wanted to get some input.

Smokey will give us Maps and 50g for an alliance against Ugly. I want to take it. Ugly is far away and it would be great to Get Smokey into a war. They are both the tech leaders and Maya is getting big.

It will allow us to shut off research and maybe get some maps from others to open up the screen. Most importantly, they are next to each other so I don't expect we will get many of Ugly's units coming at us. The war with the Celts is going as expected. I've pulled back to heal up some units and get an effective stack together. We currently have 9 full strength Jags in a stack with 3 wounded units. We have killed a single Celt warrior and pillaged their iron. There are 10 reinforcements coming up from the south and we are a couple of turns from getting a settler out.

Those are the highlights. What do you think team? Do we join Maya in a war with Ugly?

Our reputation as great fighters has made its way to center of the Mayan empire and they request our help and offer gifts to bribe us. :D

We can be bought. :eek:

And we'll declare war. :evil:

And send no troops. :lol:

I guess I'll make the deal then. I'm going to finish the set now

Post, have another look around and edit.

Realize HH is going to riot so hire a taxman
Think about dropping the science slider to 50% to break even. trading maps would be nice but we need embassies and that means cash. Drop it to 40%. Maps in 17, +3gpt.

Maya have 5 cities and are the leaders. Build an embassy for 55g. They are 23 from the Pyramids and have a spear and javelin defending. No city builds.

Actually, I think war with them would be more helpful to us than Brennus but that won't happen in my set.

And... >Return<

IBT some movement but nothing really important other than another unit moved into Alesia.

T1 1225BC
Change Rome back to a Jag. It is corrupt and we can use some MPs.
Finish the road S of JSoR. We now have a pretty fast route north to the Celts. Start a mine.
HH will grow in time for the settler. Changing the science slider meant that the specialist could go back to work. there were 2 workers that finished a road. It will grow in 5 so one worker starts a mine and the other heads N to water SNA
Keep 2 Jags exploring East and the others start heading NW to the Celts.
The stack near Alesia isn't enough to take out 2 units so I move it out to heal the 2/5 eJag. The other small stack in Celt territory pillages the iron and moves out to support. We'll have a stack of 9 full strength Jags next turn with some hurt ones. That shoudld be enough for a poke.
I think I'm going to keep a worker dedicated to building a road North. It will speed up any attack and will initially be heading to Celt land so it won't help Lizzie if we declare on her.

IBT Smokey kicks us out.

T2 1200BC
The Jag Smokey kicked out heads N to see what's under the fog. Our eastern explorer has some room to maneuver and explore.
Brennus is sending a couple of warriors against us. We have to stacks of 4 full strength Jags to deal with it.

IBT Ugly demands Math. I decide to reject it figuring he can be one of the far off wars but his threat is empty.

T3 1175BC
Attack a Celt warrior and win (1-0)
The stack consolidates 9 full strength 2 2hp and a 3/4 with another full strength beside them. We'll move in on Brennus again after takig out the roaming warrior between us and the city.
Exploring Jag finds a Barb camp.
7 Jag reinforcements coming up from the South.
Takle the deal With Smokey against Ugly
Use the cash to build an embassy in London. 2 spears defending and 20 from the colossus.

IBT see a Celt archer and build a floor on the palace.

T4 1150BC
Shut down research. That also lets us drop the lux to 10%. We are now at 12gpt.
Exploring Jag takes out a barb camp and get promoted!
I keep forgetting that Maps don't let us trade WMs.
We now have a stack of 10 full-strength Jags for a Celtic Assault but their 2 units are on hills and we would be attacking from the desert. Heal for a turn.
Decide that if ther was 1 barb camp out there I better make a little detour to the front and make sure we don't have one in the fog north of us. There's no one at home to defend.
Find a barb on the road and kill him.
Send another jag along the road, find the cam and take it too.
While going to check for trades, see that AzAz is going to riot. When I dropped the Lux, there was an MP there. Up again. Now 9gpt.

IBT Zzzzz

T5 1125BC
Keep shuffling. troops. The Celt archer will be off the hill next turn and the invasion can begin.
Settler built (Jag in 3), heading to the fur spot.

IBT see a Celt rWarrios appear on the hills.

T6 1100BC
Send the stack in to Celt territory on the hill. I ignored the other Celt units and will make a push for the city. The reinforcements can take care of the units straggling in.
While shuffling troops north, see a lone Mongol warrior heading south. I think we can take him:)
Settler continues along path and send a worker to road behind him.

IBT Lose a Jag to an Archer (1-1)

T7 1075BC
Take out the 2 warriors and archer around the stack (3-3).
Move settler in position.

IBT Americans join Ugly against Maya. Maya wants an Alliance vs Abe (reject). Abe wants us to join him against Maya. Reject but take 37g for a ROP.

T8 1050BC
Make an ROP agreement with Smokey for exploring purposes and to make sure he doesn't flip against us.
Kill a barb that was harassing our workers around Rome.
Found Fake Fur Coat

IBT Mongol archer takes out a barb camp.

T9 1025BC
Send the stack next to Alesia. I think it might have been a mistake to pull them back at the beginning. Reinforcements are coming so we fight to the death next turn.
eJag finds a mongol archer on his last movement. I hope he gets the chance to run away.
Rax built in SNA and starts a Jag. Jag production in coming online.

IBT Jag in the stack beats a Celt archer but the eJag dies (4-4)

T10 1000BC
Keep exploring
AzAz changes to a worker (it will grow to 7 next turn)
Keep shuffling troops. Prepare to take out the invading Mongols from the North. They have to move to grass and we have 3 Jags on a Mt.
The stack attacks
Take out Alesia with one loss (6-5)
Expose Entremont. We may be able to take it in a turn or two.

And that's it.

All and all not too bad. I shouldn't have waited to attack Alesia but I'm used to saving units and I have to get used to taking losses in this game. I forgot to check how many Jags we have but lots and we can get 3-4 every 2-3 turns. The only tech that the AI is up on us is HBR. We are actually tech leaders on some of them. Things seem to be going well. I think we can take out Brennus in the next couple of sets. We need to be careful of Ugly's troops coming at us but we can manage it easily enough. They are slow and we aren't.


http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/Jags1000BCc.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/Jags1000BC.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/Jags1000BCb.jpg

Good work on checking the cranky cities. That is something that is so easy to overlook, until Shazam! an upset and unproductive city. :goodjob:

Don't feel bad about delaying the attack on Alesia. Sure, we will take losses when we attack but we also need a large group to attack. We need the large attack stack since we will take a lot of losses. Gotta have to one to offset the other.

Jags coming online! Now that is some good news.

K, I got it. Will try and play tonight.

Goals
Bring the hurt to Entremont
Build more jags
Settle new city - where, pink dot?

We don't have consensus on where to place the next city. I'd say use your best judgment. There have been a number of barb camps appearing which would make expanding our borders nice. The more northerly the city, the more it will attract AI attackers. They have quite a walk and we will soon be able to get out Jags to the hills and mountain in a couple of turns. 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. If I had to make a call, I'd choose a spot that wasn't going to suffer too much from corruption so it could add to the Jag production.

@ Norton: I agree with the settler change and consolidating our force. I don't think we need to wait too long before a declaration though. Jags are speedy. A question though, why do we want to pack the cities closer? The only units we will be building have 2 movement so defense isn't an issue. We could space cities at CxxxxC and it would be the same as CxxC in a normal game. I'm not married to the map but our borders will be consolidated and we expand our area while maxing our OCN.

P.S. I'll play in about 10 hours unless people want me to wait a bit more

Sorry I didn't get back to you on this earlier, but I was out of town all weekend and had no internet access. I wanted to pack the cities in to minmize distance corruption without substantially increasing rank corruption. We don't need big cities to get 5-8 spt, so our cities don't need a lot of room for growth, but we want as many productive cities as possible. OCP and loose spacing would reduce the number of productive cities we can build. ICS, however, would result in too much rank corruption and might not give us enough space per city anyway. As such, CxxC seems best to me.

Great turnset Phaedo. I agree with Phaedo on the placement of the next city. The AI has a long hike to attack our southern cities, especially with the Celts on the defensive. My call would be somewhere in the South. The Mayans worry me long term but for now I don't think they will become agressive toward us. We might need to start thinking about who our next target will be.

It's a shame you weren't able to respond earlier (though I hope you enjoyed your weekend). That was a clear explanation and I think I agree with the reasoning. Too late now. I'm a bit fuzzy on the inner workings of corruption. Just how much distance corruption affects things for instance. I was thinking that with a larger spread, we could get more 2nd tier and 3rd tier cities, thus decreasing distance corruption overall (more cities with small distance corruption). Although with the land we have, there's not a great benefit. Perhaps waiting to get the fur by placing a city closer would have been better. The lux will help us though so all is not lost:)

It's a shame you weren't able to respond earlier (though I hope you enjoyed your weekend). That was a clear explanation and I think I agree with the reasoning. Too late now. I'm a bit fuzzy on the inner workings of corruption. Just how much distance corruption affects things for instance. I was thinking that with a larger spread, we could get more 2nd tier and 3rd tier cities, thus decreasing distance corruption overall (more cities with small distance corruption). Although with the land we have, there's not a great benefit. Perhaps waiting to get the fur by placing a city closer would have been better. The lux will help us though so all is not lost:)

It's not really too late--you just settled one city, after all, and we might want slightly wider spacing around the capital anyway since that's going to be our 15spt super jag pump.

Pre-Turn Strategy:
Bring the hurt to Entremont
Build more jags
Improve more terrain
Settle new city


OOB:
7 Workers (4 native, 3 slaves)
26 Jags (2r/21/3e)

Unit limit is 24, so we are paying 6gpt upkeep.
Research is turned off, and we are at +13gpt with 154g in the bank.

State of the Empire:
Aztec Azeleas (6) grows in 1, Worker in 2
Hooka Huacan (5) grows in 4, Settler in 2
Something Non-Aztec (4), grows in 9, vJag in 2
Fake Fur Coat (1), grows in 8, Rax in 18
Just South of Rome (2), grows in 9, vJag in 4
Rome (3), grows in 4, rJag in 14


PreFlight:
Rome is making a regular Jag, we don't need any more regular units. Switch to Rax due in 19.


IBT
Mongol rWarrior approaching
AzAz: Worker --> Jag (due in 2)

975 BC Turn 81 (1)
Hooka Settler due in 1, mm to get 1 more food and gold for a turn.
Worker around FFC moves to tobacky, new worker will join next turn.
vJag disperses a barb camp near the cows (1-0). Plan on settling somewhere around here.
Lose 1 Jag but kill the Mongol Warrior with a 2nd (2-1)
Consolidate stack outside of Entremont.

IBT
Yank Scout seen skulking around
Hooka: Settler --> vJag (due in 3)
SnA: vJag --> vJag (due in 3)

950 BC Turn 82 (2)
Worker on Tobacky will build road first, since other worker joining and will cut the time to 2 turns.
SneakyJag finds New York.
Settler moves to a location S AzAz and Hooka (CxxC from both). There is a lot of forest down here to work, we can chop 1 for a Rax, corruption will be minimal... I like the spot, and I don't think it will interfere with the capital's goal of 15spt.
10 Jags now in Entremont attack stack. Will attack next turn.

IBT
Mongol Archer appears
AzAz: vJag --> vJag (due in 2)

925 BC Turn 83 (3)
Found Into The Woods, start on Rax due in 20.
Lost 4 jags and 2 more retreated, but killed the 2 spears in Entremont (4-5). Raze the place as punishment. Get 1 slave.
1 Jag retreats, 2nd kills Mongol Archer (5-5) to find 2 more coming. Great. Divert the next reinforcing stack that way to help.

IBT
Mongol rArcher attacks, we retreat though.
JSoR: vJag --> vJag (due in 5)

900 BC Turn 84 (4)
Take out the damaged Mongol rArcher that attacked on the IBT (6-5), promote to elite.
Worker moves to forest S of ItW, prepare to chop.

IBT
eJag redlined, but takes out attacking Mongol vArcher (7-5).
AzAz: vJag --> vJag (due in 2)
Hooka: vJag --> Settler (due in 5)
SnA: vJag --> vJag (due in 3)

875 BC Turn 85 (5)
Worker chopping
Reinforcements moving

IBT
Mayans have completed the Pyramids.

850 BC Turn 86 (6)
A lot of moving of Jags
7 Jags now sit next to Camulodunum, will attack next.

IBT
Yank Archer from NY attacks someone, can't see who.
AzAz: vJag --> Settler (due in 4)

825 BC Turn 87 (7)
Moving reinforcements to the front.
The RNG Gods do not smile on our Camulodunum assault. 3 retreat, 3 lost, 1 flawless victory, and there is one yellow spear still showing. (8-8)

IBT
SnA: vJag --> vJag (due in 3)

800 BC Turn 88 (8)
Move the redlined Jags out of Celt territory to heal, and move some reinforcements up.

IBT
Another Mongol archer appears
Forest harvested
JSoR: vJag --> vJag (due in 5)

775 BC Turn 89 (9)
Hooka about to riot, lux up for 1 turn
assemble another stack for a Celt assault.

IBT
AzAz: Settler --> Jag (due in 2)
Rome: Rax --> vJag (due in 5)
Hooka: Settler --> vJag (due in 3)
English complete the Colossus and start on the Oracle.

750 BC Turn 90 (10)
New stack of 8 Jags assembled outside of Celt space, move to attack next turn.
2 Settlers ready - one heads to a spot 3S of blue dot - this spot is in the desertm but is CxxC from AzAz, Hooka, FFC, and SnA. We should irrigate and this should be a productive city.
The other settler begins heading N to a further spot - blue dot maybe?


Ending Order of Battle:
2 Settlers
9 Workers (5 native, 4 slaves)
27 Jags (2r/22v/3e)


State of the Empire:
Aztec Azeleas (5) grows in 7, vJag in 2
Hooka Huacan (4) grows in 3, vJag in 3
Something Non-Aztec (5), grows in 9, vJag in 1
Fake Fur Coat (2), grows in 18, Rax in 1
Just South of Rome (3), grows in 9, vJag in 4
Rome (4), grows in 4, vJag in 5
Into The Woods, grows in 3, Rax in 3

We have 340g at +14gpt.

Hopefully the RNG will smile on our next assault.


And the file
>>FILE<< (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/97659/CBob02_BC_750_CA.SAV).

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/97659/Cbob02-750.JPG

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/97659/Cbob02-750-2.JPG

It's not really too late--you just settled one city, after all, and we might want slightly wider spacing around the capital anyway since that's going to be our 15spt super jag pump.
Sure, now you tell me ;)

I don't think the city I already founded will interfere much, and it looks to be on a productive spot. The settler I was moving though, we may want to re-think.

Sure, now you tell me ;)

I don't think the city I already founded will interfere much, and it looks to be on a productive spot. The settler I was moving though, we may want to re-think.

I don't think it will, either, and the settler's fine where it is. I don't think we should build any more settlers in the capital, though. I do think we need a few more workers so that the capital can get to 15 spt as quickly as possible.

Got it. I guess the settler's spot, blue dot, and yellow dot would be good sites. It would be good to capture Ta-Tu and rush a barracks there.

750(0): HH is going to waste a lot of shields, so give the BG to Into the Woods
switch Just South of Rome to worker to improve the grass
get an extra gold in Fake Fur Coat

IBT: ITW rax->jag
Something non-Aztec jag->jag
FFC rax->jag

730(1): found Desert City, start on rax
oops, I forgot to set lux to 10% last turn
kill Mongol archer; two jags retreat attacking archer

IBT: archer kills jag
Mongols, Maya sign peace
AA jag->jag

710(2): kill Mongol archer
kill 2 spears to raze Camulodunum, destroy Celts

IBT: HH jag->settler

690(3): jag dies attacking a barb camp
lose 3 jags, 3 retreat, kill 1 spear attacking Ta-Tu

IBT: horse kills jag
AA jag->jag
Something non-Aztec jag->jag
Just South of Rome jag->jag

670(4): found Oasisville, start on worker

650(5): lux to 30%
disperse barb camp
kill horse

IBT: kill archer
AA jag->jag
Rome jag->jag
FFC jag->jag

630(6): kill barb horse

IBT: kill archer
HH settler->settler
ITW jag->jag
SnA jag->worker
Maya start Oracle

610(7): lux to 20%
kill barb horse

IBT: AA jag->jag

590(8): kill spear to raze Ta-Tu
kill barb warrior

IBT: Maya, America sign peace
kill barb warrior
SnA worker->jag

570(9): kill barb horse

IBT: AA jag->jag

550(10): disperse barb camp

Notes: There's 11 jags (1 is injured) on the ivory, so an attack on Karakorum can begin soon.

lurker's comment: I know you have already discussed what government you should stay in, but, maybe with all the cash you guys are getting, I think you should consider Monarchy so you can cash rush (unless you want the pop rushing...)

Good going Tim! The Celts are gone and we've started to nibble at the Mongols. We have nine cities and more on the way.

Looking very good!

I can't tell from the mini-map in the screen shot, but have we explored any westward?

Roster:

CommandoBob - warming up
Phaedo
CivActuary
TimBentley - just played
Norton II - UP!
Lboogie13 - on deck

Got it. I'll play tomorrow (have company today). I want to build a couple of galleys, though--if the Ottomans were on the main continent, I think we would have met them by now.

I agree with Norton. I think the Ottomans are not on the main continent and off to the west somewhere. Oh and good work Tim!

I'm 3 turns into the set. We've razed Karakorum, losing only 2 jags in the process (3 won, 4 retreated). However, I think we ought to shift targets--the Maya are getting just a little too big, not to mention that they're one tech ahead of everyone else and only need currency to get to the MA. In fact, maybe we ought to bring in some allies against them if we can afford it.

I'm for a switch of targets, especially if they are that close to the MA.

However, I think we ought to shift targets--the Maya are getting just a little too big, not to mention that they're one tech ahead of everyone else and only need currency to get to the MA. In fact, maybe we ought to bring in some allies against them if we can afford it.
Make it happen, Number One, er Norton II.

Make it happen, Number One, er Norton II.

Shouldn't that be "make it so"? :lol: Anyway, that two ayes and three abstensions, so will do.

First off, the save: 151478

Preflight: switch citizen from tobacco to irrigated plains in AzAz--gets us 8 spt, or 2-turn jags
IBT:
-Rome jag>jag (5);JSoR jag>jag (5); Desert City rax>worker (4)
-Ottomans build Oracle
1:---
IBT:
-RoP w/Maya comes up for renewal--cancel
-AzAz jag>jag (2); HH settler>settler (5); ItW jag>galley (10); SnA jag>galley (6)
-America starts MoM; England starts GW; Maya starts MoM
2:
-settle Cowtown, start worker (10)
-send 15-jag stack toward Karakorum--will attack next turn
IBT:
-Maya settle Quirigua near incense
-FFC jag>jag (4)
3:
-commence attack on Karakorum--kill 3 spears, lose 2 jags, 4 jags retreat; raze Karakorum
-notice Maya are getting too powerful, so start planning war with them; investigate Chichen Itza and see this:
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p196/Norton_II/chichenitza.jpg

IBT: AzAz jag>jag (2); Oasisville worker>rax (forgot to record)
4:---
IBT: DC worker>jag (8)
5:
-declare on Maya
-MA w/England for 264 gold; MA w/America for 276 gold; MA w/Mongols and 100 gold for peace
-commence attack on Quirigua; kill 1 spear, lose 4 jags (!), 1 jag retreats
IBT: AzAz jag>jag (2); JSoR jag>jag (5)
6: start gathering stack near Chichen Itza
IBT:
-barb warrior kills jag and 3 slaves!
-HH settler>settler (6); FFC jag>jag (4)
-settler South Cowtown, start worker (10)
7:---
IBT:
-Mongols tell us to remove or declare--we remove
-AzAz jag>jag (2); Rome jag>jag (8); SnA galley>jag (3)
8: jag dies attacking redlined barb!!! I think it was the same barb that killed the other jag and the slaves
IBT:---
9:---
IBT:
-AzAz jag>jag (2)
-SnA and JSoR riot
10:
-raise lux to 30
-settler Cancerville near 3 tobacco tiles south of AzAz; start rax (10)

Notes:
1. Semper varium et mutabile RNG!
2. I've got 23 jags near Chichen Itza, and 2 JTs are heading their way (not from the garrison, though; these are regs, not vets). Given the size of the garrison and the city's 50% defensive bonus, we shouldn't attack with less than 30. Alternatively, we can hit some other cities first.
3. Chichen Itza, Copan, and Tikal are worth keeping ('Mids, spices, and gems respectively). Everything else can be razed unless we need more unit support.
4. I doubt we'll be able to wipe out the Maya before the alliances expire, but if we can, we shouldn't.
5. We'll probably need to hit England next.

The Aztec Empire, as of 350 BC:
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p196/Norton_II/us2.jpg

The Maya (note the 23 jags gathered outside of Chichen Itza):
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p196/Norton_II/smokey.jpg

-settler Cancerville near 3 tobacco tiles south of AzAz

Great name! :lol:

It fooled me at first. I thought you had named it in reference to the astrological sign of the zodiac. Then I read 'near 3 tobacco' and knew that your humor is just as sick and twisted as mine. :D

Just some random notes on the game.

Ottomans
I see we built at least one galley. We may need some more to find the Ottomans. Even with a pangea landmass they could be hard to find. I expect some suicide galley losses. :(

Smart Civs
My game is still stashed away, so I'll ask this. How far is everyone from the Middle Ages?

By declaring on Maya we will pretty much stop their tech advances. Taking their capital, and probably their best researching city, will just about kill their search for smarts.

The question is, after the Mayans, is there another AI that can reach the Middle Ages before we kill them?

New Cities
We need a second settler pump to help out Hooka Huacan. The area around our capital is pretty well settled, which means that any settler made by HH has to walk a long way to found a new city. That walk costs us some upkeep for the settler but it also costs us turns, since we can't be making units while the settler is walking.

So, let's examine the possiblity of making Cowtown or South Cowtown into a settler pump to help out HH. If both can become settler pumps, great, HH can make vJags.

Chichen Itza
Do we want to keep this city for the Pyramids and the free granaries? If so, we'll need to keep units around outside the city, not inside it, in case it flips back to the Mayans.

Mayan Conquest
After capturing/razing Chichen Itza, I would suggest attacking eastwards towards Yax-whatever, northeast of Washington. This would split the nation and leave only the smaller cities (size 3 or less).

Once we get to Yax, if we still need to attack England, those forces in Yax can conquer northwards to England. If we need to take out the Yanks, we're already in place.

Roster:

CommandoBob - on deck
Phaedo - warming up
CivActuary
TimBentley
Norton II - just played
Lboogie13 - UP!

Nice set Norton:goodjob: . I think the pyramids would be a nice addition to our empire. It would help in settler production some, but more importantly, it would get our smaller core and semi-core cities up to better production levels faster.

A declaration on the Ottomans makes sense. If we haven't seen them, this means they probably are not in standard galley distance. It presents a bit of a dilemma for the victory. Tons of Jags and lost galleys to get a proper landing force. We can't afford to get to caravels so the only option I see is fully loaded suicide galleys. Hopefully there will be a piece of land free to build up the force in relative safety before making the attack. A bridge to cross later, however it is important to know where that bridge is so I fully support some more galley builds.

Maya was definitely the right choice and getting the rest involved in a dogpile was excellent. I also agree that Liz is the next vic. It looks like we are going to need cats, and cash rushing might become an eventual necessity. Either way it's going to involve a fair bit of cash so the more cities we can plant for mini-specialist farms and to keep the UU down the better.

This is getting rather interesting.

Consider this a got it. I will play either tonight or Wednesday night. Any ideas on where to put the next settler. I think Pyramids would be nice to have. I'm not sure if I'll get enough Jags in place to taken Chichen Itza in my turnset. The Mayans are growing too fast so I would rather wait and take the capital.

I'm not sure if I'll get enough Jags in place to taken Chichen Itza in my turnset. The Mayans are growing too fast so I would rather wait and take the capital.
Uh, (Chichen Itza is the Mayan capital.)

On where to put the settler, why not try your hand at a dot map of places you think are good? Post it back here and see what the team thinks. But don't limit yourself to just a city site or two; try four or five so we can plan for the next few turnsets also.

Yeah I know Chichen Itza is the Mayan capital...My point is that I don't want to attack it prematurely. I think 30 jags is a good number before I attack.

I will try out a dot map and post when I get the chance.

Yeah I know Chichen Itza is the Mayan capital...My point is that I don't want to attack it prematurely. I think 30 jags is a good number before I attack.

I will try out a dot map and post when I get the chance.

I have several jags on the way; it should come out to 30 in a few turns.

Sorry guys, I still haven't had a chance to play. Hopefully, I will be able to post tomorrow.

Sorry guys. Work has tied me up this week. Just to get the save posted I am doing an abbreviated post and will edit tomorrow night. First, the save..

151789

Basically I captured Chichen Itza a few turns in and it hasn't flipped. Well at least not yet. I founded a new city and there is a settler to be placed by the next player. I found the Ottomans

151791

I razed Bonampak, Mayan city with pop of 3. Here is our empire

151790

and here are our front line troops

151792

Again, sorry for the lateness and the abbreviated post. I have to go spend time with the wife. Last time she hid my Civ 3 vanilla!!!

Checked out the save--not too shabby! A few observations:
1. Looks like we took heavy losses, but that was to be expected. Fortunately, our capital can give us 1-turn jags now--we just need to move one citizen from a 1-shield tile to the forest.
2. No one's in the MA yet, but everyone except the Ottomans is one tech away. England should still be our next target.
3. It'll take galleys 2-3 turns to get to Ottoman Island, but if the English finish the Great Lighthouse, and we capture it, we won't have to use suicide galleys. We should investigate London to see how close they are.
4. @Lboogie13: Did you take a screenshot of Istanbul after establishing the embassy? If not, we'll have to investigate it, too.

Ok gents here is the full post, sorry it took so long

Pre-flight: 1. Capture\raze Chichen Itza
2. Found Ottomans
3. Attack further east into Mayan territory

350 - everything looks good, just hire taxman in Just South of Rome and Something non-AZ to stop rioting, hit enter and away we go

IBT - Mayans are building Temple of Artemis and complete Mausoleum of Mausollos, England settles Liverpool in northern frontier

330 - move units towards CI

IBT English get great wall

310 - more moving units, disperse barb camp and collect some free gold

IBT - Mayans attack our stack with javs, we go 1-1

290 - get a settler from HH, kill redlined jav that just killed one of ours, move stack of 30 to CI

IBT - Jav kills elite jag trying to join stack, barb galley suicides against our galley

270 - begin the attack on CI 5 retreats, 8 wins and 7 losses, not too bad considering there was 8 defenders. We take the city and get Mausoleum and Pyramids, plus 2 slaves and 3 of our own workers back. :king:

I garrison 2 units inside the city and the rest outside. Move the workers to connect CI with our southern cities.

IBT - Javs kills 2 of our jags

250 - move jags up to CI (but not in it) to prepare for our next attack, send another potentially suicide galley out in search of Ottomans

IBT - Mayans and English declare peace, Rome and CI are in chaos

230 - hire a joker in Rome and CI, kill 2 misc. javs roaming toward our territory, move our stack to Bonampak, next Mayan victim

IBT - Rome and CI are ok, lose galley up north exploring :mad:

210 - Meet Ottomans finally! Here's a shot of Istanbul courtesy of our new ambassodor
151862

He is up polytheism on us and we are up Wheel and IW.

IBT - Mayans and Americans declare peace, English are working on some sort of huge, lighthouse that is supposed to be great, Ottomans kindly threaten us to leave their territory or else

190- keep moving jags in place

IBT - settler from HH, Mayans attack our stack and kill 1, lose 2 of their javs

170 - Attack Bonampak, 5 retreat, 5 die and we kill their 3 defenders and raze the city :hammer: , founded Frontierville in our northern frontier, rax in 20. Sorry guys I didn't do a dotmap. I hope the placement is ok. I accidently left Fake Fur on to build a spear instead of a jag so we now have a spear for defense.

IBT - Mayans attack our stack, 2 jags retreat and 1 dies, we kill two of their units

150 - leave stack in place for the next player, 12 jags with more on the way. See my post above for the save and other screen shots.

Looks good to me, too!

Skip

I won't be able to play this next turnset. We're not through with our painting and our son comes in on Wednesday night. He will be here until Sunday morning when he flies back to Kentucky for his last two weeks of school, after which he is back home for the summer.

I cannot fight the wife unit and live to tell of it, at least, not this week. :D

And this time I have to agree with her. Get the house stuff done first, C3C second.

Roster:

CommandoBob - skipped
Phaedo- UP!
CivActuary - on deck
TimBentley - warming up
Norton II
Lboogie13 - just played

Ok, well unfortunately I've been pushed up in a number of games. I can probably get to it later in the week but if someone wants to trade sets, it would help.

Phaedo, I can take it and play tonight or tomorrow, so let's do a switch.

Thanks. That's a big help

OOB:
1 Settler
22 Workers (13 native, 9 slaves)
1 Spear (1v)
3 Galleys
31 Jags (24v/7e)

Unit limit is 56, so we are not paying any upkeep.
Research is turned off, and we are at +26gpt with 606g in the bank.

State of the Empire:
Aztec Azeleas (8) grows in 12, vJag in 1
Cancerville (2), grows in 2, vJag in 4
Chichen Itza (4), no growth, vSpear in 19
Cowtown (2), grows in 2, rJag in 7
Desert City (2), grows in 3, vJag in 3
Fake Fur Coat (3), grows in 3, vJag in 4
Frontierville (1), grows in 9, Rax in 19
Hooka Huacan (3) grows in 3, Settler in 5
Into The Woods (4), grows in 4, Galley in 2
Just South of Rome (5), no growth, vJag in 2
Oasisville (2), grows in 2, vJag in 7
Rome (5), grows in 7, vJag in 6
Something Non-Aztec (6), no growth, Galley in 5
South Cowtown (1), grows in 1, Rax in 17

So we are building, in summary,
Settler 1
Spear 1
Jags 8
Rax 2
Galley 2

Couple items before I play.

- MM'd AzAz to get 1 turn Jags
- The Settler moving N I am planning to put on the grassland 3NE of Rome. I briefly considered the hill1 E of that position, but with the corruption that will be in that city, I think we would need the mined hills to get 2 shields out of it.
- When did we get that Spear and what are the plans for it? We are building another as well - are we going to continue with building some defensive units or just build Jags?
- Going to switch Cowtown to a Rax, regular Jags are not going to help us at this point.
- Are we planning an taking the Mayans all the way out before starting on the English? They have 6 cities left, and there is a lot of open space for them to re-expand if peace breaks out.
- Attack forces are kind of scattered, Holding off on the attacks for a turn or 2 will probably be good. The stack near Copan needs to move out of range to heal.

lurker comment: Looking good, I'm enjoying it. :goodjob:

- When did we get that Spear and what are the plans for it? We are building another as well - are we going to continue with building some defensive units or just build Jags?

I built a spear on accident. One of those mouse slips where I thought I left production on a jag and it was a spear that popped out in like 2 turns. As far as building another one I probably did the same thing. Sorry!

We took heavy losses attacking those 2 mayan cities. My guess is that we need 20 to attack a small city and 30 or more to attack a capital or big city.

My vote is take down the Mayans ASAP. They do have too much room to grow and seem to be our strongest enemy. Keep exploring the Ottomans. It looked like they were lagging behind in tech and may not have any resources to build more advanced units, especially if they are stuck on that island. IMHO, that may be the last civ we want to take down.

My vote is take down the Mayans ASAP. They do have too much room to grow and seem to be our strongest enemy. Keep exploring the Ottomans. It looked like they were lagging behind in tech and may not have any resources to build more advanced units, especially if they are stuck on that island. IMHO, that may be the last civ we want to take down.

I agree about the Maya. After that, I think England should be next, especially if Lizzie finishes the Great Lighthouse--that'll make the invasion of Ottoman Island much easier. As for leaving them for last, maybe, but keep in mind that they don't need advanced units to counter us--just a lot of not-so-advanced ones, which is probably what they'll build if unit support doesn't bankrupt them.

Maya is definitely the big threat at the moment. I agree with Norton on making Lizzy next.

As for the spears, take them to a city and disband them to build more Jags.

PreFlight:
Switch Chichen Itza from a spear to a jag.
mm a few tiles bewteen JSoR and Oasis


IBT
Mayan jav attacks our stack outside of Palenque, we lose a jag (0-1)
Mayan jav attacks a jag outside of Chichen Itza and dies (1-1)
AzAz: Jag --> Jag (due in 1)


130 BC Turn 121 (1)
Our stack that razed Bonampak last turnset, consisting of a full strength eJag, a 2/5 eJag, and 10 redlined jags need to heak to be able to continue attacking. They will come under fire this turn by a Mayan vSword and possibly 2 reg Javs. CAII says the probability of the vSword winning, attacking across a river and onto a hill, is 27.5%. Decide to stay put.
Take out a Cherokee camp for 25g (2-1)
Galley was on goto - tsk tsk!
Lots of worker moves and shuffling Jags to the front.

IBT
A Jag dies to the Sword (durn RNG!) but a Jav dies outside of Palanque (3-2)
AzAz: Jag --> Jag (due in 1)
ItW: Galley --> Jag (due in 4)
JSoR: Jag --> Jag (due in 5)
England is in Republic now.

110 BC Turn 122 (2)
Lots of worker moves and shuffling Jags to the front.

IBT
Mayans will give us 3 techs for peace. Uh, no sorry, we need to destroy you.
Jag retreats vs Mayan sword.
AzAz: Jag --> Jag (due in 1)
Chichen Itza flips back to Maya, lost the garrison (3-4)
Desert City: Jag --> Jag (due in 5)

90 BC Turn 123 (3)
Jag kills a Barb horse (4-4)
Take out a barb camp (5-4) and promote
Found San Diego State (they are the Aztecs, after all) where I wanted, start on Rax
With only 4 jags in place outside Chichen Itza, it would be suicide to attack it until reinforcements arrive.
Please just assume lots of worker moves and shuffling Jags to the front, I don't feel like Cntl-C Cntl-V anymore.

IBT
Lose 2 Jags and kill 1 Jav in various battles (6-6)
AzAz: Jag --> Jag (due in 1)
FFC: Jag --> Jag (due in 4)
Cancerville: Jag --> Jag (due in 5)

70 BC Turn 124 (4)
Take out a Barb horse and another Barb Warrior in the way, promoting (8-6)
Assembling force to retake Chicken Itza.

IBT
AzAz: vJag --> vJag (due in 1)
Hooka: Settler --> Jag (due in 5)
SnA: Galley --> Jag (due in 3)
Oasis: Jag --> Jag (due in 5)
English are building a big Statue made of Ivory that somehow produces horses every few years. What up with that, anyhow?

50 BC Turn 125 (5)
See a Mayan Galley of our eastern coast. Set a couple Jags to shadow it. Better yet, send a couple of our galleys over.

IBT
Mongols extend our peace treaty. Yeah, fine.
Jav attacks and dies (9-6)
AzAz: Jag --> Jag (due in 1)
Rome: Jag --> Jag (due in 8)
ItW: Jag --> Jag (due in 4)
JSoR: Jag --> Jag (due in 4)

30 BC Turn 126 (6)
2 more Barbs goes down (11-6)

IBT
Another Jav attacks and dies (12-6)
AzAz: Jag --> Jag (due in 1)
Cowtown: Rax --> Jag (due in 8)

10 BC Turn 127 (7)
English just entered the Middle Ages.
Snuck a pillager through the Mayan lines and took out their iron hill.
20+ jags ready to take out Chicken Itza next turn.

IBT
Jag retreats to Jav
Mongol Spear pillages Mayan Iron
AzAz: Jag --> Jag (due in 1)
Hooka: Jag --> Settler (due in 6)
SnA: Jag --> Jag (due in 3)
FFC: Jag --> Jag (due in 4)
Desert City: Jag --> Jag (due in 5)

10 AD Turn 128 (8)
6 losses, 8 retreats, and 5 wins later, Chichen Itza is ours once more. (17-12) Rename to Chicken Itza because I type that half the time anyway.

IBT
AzAz: Jag --> Jag (due in 1)
South Cowtown: Rax --> Jag (due in 8)
Cancerville: Jag --> Jag (due in 4)

30 AD Turn 129 (9)
Jag retreats vs Barb
Lose one galley but the other takes out the Mayan galley before they could be annoying and land something in our relatively undefended interior. (18-13)

IBT
AzAz: Jag --> Jag (due in 1)
ItW: Jag --> Jag (due in 3)
JSoR: Jag --> Jag (due in 4)
Oasis: Jag --> Jag (due in 5)

50 AD Turn 130 (10)
Move our stack of doom (27 Jags) to the mountain N of Copan.

Ending Order of Battle:
1 Settler
22 Workers (13 native, 9 slaves)
1 Spear (1v)
4 Galleys
46 Jags (37v/9e)

End Notes.
- The settler is heading for the spot 1N of the lake - from that connection we can water the brown around Frontierville.

- The SoD is on the mountain and can take Copan in 2 turns.

- Barb horse making a pest of itself NE of Cowtown.

- Between healing and consolidating the offense at the start of the turn, and then Chicken Itza flipping, I didn't make a whole lot of progress, which is trouble in this game at this stage. I hopefully have set up a big enough stack with support on the way for you to make good progress, Phaedo.

- England is in the Middle Ages. We need to talk about a strategy to handle them soon.


And the file
>>FILE<< (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/97659/CBob02_AD_50_CA.SAV).

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/97659/Cbob02-50AD.JPG

Found San Diego State (they are the Aztecs, after all) where I wanted, start on Rax
...
Please just assume lots of worker moves and shuffling Jags to the front, I don't feel like Cntl-C Cntl-V anymore.

Great name! :goodjob:

But I don't understand the second sentence. :confused:

End Notes.
- The settler is heading for the spot 1N of the lake - from that connection we can water the brown around Frontierville.

- The SoD is on the mountain and can take Copan in 2 turns.

- Barb horse making a pest of itself NE of Cowtown.

Barb Horse we'll just have to dodge around for a while, unless we send a short stack through the jungles on a 'shortcut' to the Mayans.

Be nice to have a city on one of the jungle dyes to help keep our folks happy. But unless the coast is very clear, I don't think this a good place for the current settler.

Be nicer to have roads through the marshes/jungles to cut down on travel time, but that will take a lot of worker-turns.


- Between healing and consolidating the offense at the start of the turn, and then Chicken Itza flipping, I didn't make a whole lot of progress, which is trouble in this game at this stage. I hopefully have set up a big enough stack with support on the way for you to make good progress, Phaedo.

- England is in the Middle Ages. We need to talk about a strategy to handle them soon.

A slow down was bound to happen, and city flips are a real pest, so don't feel bad. Chicken-Itza (Itza-Chicken ?) is now back being Aztec, and smaller, so except for the lost units, I think the flip was in our favor. The city will be easier to manage, especially if we capture more Mayan cities.

Can we pillage any English Iron? (CA, you did a good thing in pillaging the Mayan Iron.) Then, even if they learn Feudalism, they can't build any Pikes.

Random Thoughts
We may need to consider beating the Mayans down to one or two cities, make peace and then concentrate on England. Not sure, just an idea.

Something to consider, (as my mind rambles), is that we may have to leave weak Civs behind to get at the tech/military leaders. But we can chose the cities they get to keep, making sure they have no iron. Saltpeter will be trickier, but if we are agressive enough, we might keep them fighting too much to research Gunpowder.

If it came to choices, I would prefer to face several weak AIs, even with Gunpowder, than one strong AI with Gunpowder or better.

I got it. I may be able to look at it and post some thought tonight but it will more likely be the day after tomorrow.

A quick peace might be nice. It would be good to get cats. Enough of them can red-line pikes. We could conceivably get to the MA ourselves if we don't hook iron.

Great name! :goodjob:

But I don't understand the second sentence. :confused: Control-C and Control-V - the Windows keyboard shortcuts for copy and paste. I was saying I'm doing a lot of the same things every turn, so just assume they are happening without me putting the text in the writeup. (Guess these little jokes don't work well when I have to explain them).

Barb Horse we'll just have to dodge around for a while, unless we send a short stack through the jungles on a 'shortcut' to the Mayans.Might be worth it to send a jag or 2, that's the second horse to come calling from that area. The last thing we want is for someone else to enter the MA and have a massive barbarian uprising right on our doorstep.

Can we pillage any English Iron? (CA, you did a good thing in pillaging the Mayan Iron.) Then, even if they learn Feudalism, they can't build any Pikes.First thing we should do upon declaration of war, IMHO. Unless they were pains and settled on top of it.

Random Thoughts
We may need to consider beating the Mayans down to one or two cities, make peace and then concentrate on England. Not sure, just an idea.Maybe. I don't like leaving enemies behind at our backs, but the English are in danger of putting this scenario out of reach, so we certainly need to deal with them soon.

Control-C and Control-V - the Windows keyboard shortcuts for copy and paste.

Oh, Copy and Paste. :eek:

I was thinking of Civ shortcuts. :crazyeye:


Maybe. I don't like leaving enemies behind at our backs, but the English are in danger of putting this scenario out of reach, so we certainly need to deal with them soon.
I'm not too fond of the idea either, but it is an option.

Sorry guys, this has just slipped off my radar the past few days. I may be able to get at it today or will definitely be able to play tomorrow.

Personally, I like the idea of switching enemies for a bit. However, I'm not sure what the team thinks. I think keeping Liz out of the Ma and then going back to Maya would be effective and Maya won't build up too much in that time. We may or may not be able to take Liz out but cutting her down in 2 wars with a genocide against Maya in between should be doable.

Personally, I like the idea of switching enemies for a bit. However, I'm not sure what the team thinks. I think keeping Liz out of the Ma and then going back to Maya would be effective and Maya won't build up too much in that time. We may or may not be able to take Liz out but cutting her down in 2 wars with a genocide against Maya in between should be doable.Except she's already in the MA. I think we may need to lean on her for a while now. It would be nice if we could get allies against her, too.

Ok, first order of business will be to get whoever I can into war with Liz and take out her resources.

I'll play tomorrow

Two things before going to war with England:
1. They have iron, but I can't find it. It must be somewhere in unexplored territory, either north of London or near the city south of Nottingham.
2. IMHO we shouldn't capture London until the Great Lighthouse is built. That's going to help us when it's time to invade the Ottomans.

Well, I opened the save and had a closer look around at what's going on and I'd like some input before continuing.

We have a spear, are we allowed that?

Maya still has a source of iron although not yet hooked up, as does Ugly.

There is a source open in the West. I think monopolizing iron may be far more important to us than the tech race. If we can control the resources, it doesn't matter what they know how to build. Razing that last Maya city would put iron permanently out of reach for them and we could get control of it with a city.

Before doing anything, I spent some gold to investigate cities and see who has what.
Investigate Nottingham for 45g

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/NottinghamInvestigation.jpg


Investigate Hovid for 31g as it is the other city with iron

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/HovidInvestigation.jpg


The Yanks don't seem to have access to anything so I didn't bother with an investigation.

Before I do anything else, I'd like a bit of input. Taking the Mayan Cap will give us control of that iron source and then we could go against Liz and get control of the source near Hovid after what I assume is York. I'd like to take that city before heading to Liz. The MA isn't much of a threat if they don't have iron. After controlling the horses, we would only face warriors until someone got gunpowder.

We have a spear, are we allowed that?


Just to refresh everyone's memory:
We will try to conquer the world with Jaguar Warriors. It will be the only offensive unit. We can build defensive units (spear, pikes, muskets, etc) but they are only city dwellers and settler protectors. We won’t be building them to protect the Jags, just our cities and settlers. We can also build bombarding units (catapults, trebuchets, etc).


I think monopolizing iron may be far more important to us than the tech race. If we can control the resources, it doesn't matter what they know how to build.
For Iron this is certainly true, since it is needed for Pikes and Maces. But with Gunpowder and Saltpeter, the equation changes since we can't see Saltpeter.

To deny Saltpeter we would have to do a lot of pillaging and just hope for the best. I don't think we would be able to field an attacking force and a pillaging force. (But it would be fun!)


Before I do anything else, I'd like a bit of input. Taking the Mayan Cap will give us control of that iron source and then we could go against Liz and get control of the source near Hovid after what I assume is York. I'd like to take that city before heading to Liz. The MA isn't much of a threat if they don't have iron. After controlling the horses, we would only face warriors until someone got gunpowder.
By all means, get the resource, deny it to the AI and make them fight us on our terms, not theirs.

Ok, I'm off then. 1st take the Mayan Cap, peace and then head for Lizzie.

Take a city tour
MM a little to get some growth and slightly faster production.
If we are able to get CoL and Const, there are some cities that could get 2-turn Jags where they are now 3-turners with Aqueducts and/or Courts. Maya will surely give us something.

T0 50AD
kill the Barb horse

IBT Massive Barb Uprising near S Cowtown

T1 70AD
A bunch of Jags built and went on it again.
Send the stack next to Copan.

IBT 24 Barb horses show up in the marshes. Mongols enter the MA. I think we are looking at quick wars between Liz and Ugly

T2 90AD
Kill 4 Babs
Raze Copan losing 2 Jags (no MGL)
Get peace, CoL and Const for 66g. He wouldn't go for a mutual attack on Liz
Start to consolidate and get hurt Jags back to the rax to heal.
Change SnA to a settler. We are pumping out Jags nicely and the one pump just won't get us the spread we need to monopolize the resources.
Buy a worker from Ugly to slow his connection to iron.

IBT Zzzz

T3 110 AD
Take out some more Barbs
Start moving a stack of 20 towards England
I suppose that after the core has been fully developed, the best thing to do with workers is to road towards our enemies.

IBT Zzzz

T4 130AD
A stack of 26 is set to go into Liz's territory next turn.
Keep at the Barb stack that isn't attacking

IBT Zzzz

T5 150AD
Kill some barbs and send the elites back to heal and head to the front
DOW on Liz and move into her territory

IBT Zzzz

T6 170AD
Raze Coventry and move 22 full strength Jags towards the next target (love those Mountains)
Kill some barbs (2 left)
Start making another stack near Taeyo to defend/attack

IBT Zzzz

T7 190Ad
Keep building the stack
Get rid of the Barbs and send a couple Jags to deal with the shack
Move into Liz's territory again

IBT Zzzz

T8 210AD
More of the same
York falls next turn

IBT Zzzz

T9 230AD
Raze York (lost 2 Jags)
Continue on towards London, which now has the GL

IBT

T10 150AD
Keep moving towards the front.

There are a couple of settlers heading that way. I thought the hill S of Warwick would be a good kill zone and we will need to claim that other source of iron that Ugly has. After that, we should be able to focus on horses.

We have 2 stacks of 20 which seem to be easily enough to take out cities. Maybe we should think about putting Maya and Ugly out of their misery simultaneously after dealing with Liz's core.

The main thing is to just keep the AI confused between war and peace and keep them off the resources. I think Ugly is the main threat at this point because of the iron but I also think we have a bit of time to deal with him.


http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/Jags150.jpg

If we are able to get CoL and Const, there are some cities that could get 2-turn Jags where they are now 3-turners with Aqueducts and/or Courts. Maya will surely give us something.

And they did!

York and Coventry razed; nice work.

:goodjob:

(Psst, Phaedo, where's the save?)

Great set Phaedo! And you look like you had tons better RNG luck than what I had.

Here's a question - is research slower for the AI the more civs are left in the game? My line of thinking was something like
- reduce Maya and Ugly to OCC after dealing with Liz's core - they would hardly be able to research things themselves then, and would slow research for the other civs
- if they start sending out settlers, just declare on them and take the slaves.

Great set Phaedo! And you look like you had tons better RNG luck than what I had.

Here's a question - is research slower for the AI the more civs are left in the game? My line of thinking was something like
- reduce Maya and Ugly to OCC after dealing with Liz's core - they would hardly be able to research things themselves then, and would slow research for the other civs
- if they start sending out settlers, just declare on them and take the slaves.

Thanks. My strategy was to attack with vets and elites after they were wounded. There were never more than 2 spears in Liz's cities so it wasn't so bad.

I like the OCC idea. I don't think we would even need to declare peace after a certain point. Just have some Jags around to harvest the slaves.

I think the key now is resources with movement being close behind. It would be nice to get a road out to the NW ending with a stack building on a hill.

(Psst, Phaedo, where's the save?)
(Psst, Phaedo, where's the save?)

Sorry about that:blush:

Got it. I should play tomorrow.

It looks like London should be within 5 turns of finishing the Great Lighthouse, so I think waiting a couple of turns if necessary would be good.

By the way, keeping the Maya and Mongols alive won't affect England's research costs (i.e. anyone researching a new tech).

Great job Phaedo! If having more civs around does not affect research then we should finish off the Mayans.

I was unable to play and will be for a few days, so skip me.

I'm up in Phaedo02 as well, but I can take this Monday. I won't take London right away (not until the lighthouse is built), but I'll put a nice dent in England just the same.
@Lboogie13: Getting rid of a civ slows down research (fewer civs knowing a tech makes that tech more expensive), which is good for us.

I just played a similar game and won: standard, pangea, 60%, temperate, 4byo, and it's difficulty was ummm chieftain :blush:...but I just wanted to see if I could do it, so I picked the easiest level :D
So, good luck on this...monarch or emperor, or whatever...:goodjob:

I was unable to play and will be for a few days, so skip me.

I'm up in Phaedo02 as well, but I can take this Monday.
Not a problem.

Just post a 'get' when you start playing, so the other one knows what you are doing. :D

@sercer88: This is at Monarch. I wasn't quite brave enough to try this at Emperor. :lol:

This is at Monarch. I wasn't quite brave enough to try this at Emperor.

When you finally win, would trying it again on Emperor be a possibility? (would be a very interesting read, like this one ;))

CommandoBob could you please post the roster again? We had some swapping and skipping. I must confess that I get busy and forget when my turn is sometimes. thanks.

CommandoBob could you please post the roster again? We had some swapping and skipping. I must confess that I get busy and forget when my turn is sometimes. thanks.

Whatever skips and swaps we had, we'll just continue from TimBentley. :D


Roster:

CommandoBob - warming up
Phaedo
CivActuary
TimBentley - just played
Norton II - UP!
Lboogie13 - on deck

Playing right now. BTW, what did we want to do with our 3 settlers? I can't find a recent dotmap, so I'll just improvise.

5 turns in. Out of nowhere, the Americans built the lighthouse in Boston! They must have had an MGL. Anyway, I captured London, but it flipped 2 turns later, and I've just recaptured it. It has the Great Wall, which is somewhat useful to us, but if it flips again, I'll raze it. Also captured Warwick, and I'll start heading for liverpool as soon as reinforcements arrive. That's it for tonight, though; I have to be at work at 6 tomorrow morning, so I'll finish the set tomorrow afternoon.

I was thinking settlers would be best used to to deny iron from our enemies. We can't hook it up but they are going to be corrupt towns anyway. If the rest of the world can't use iron, we look pretty good for a long while.

Anyway, I captured London, but it flipped 2 turns later, and I've just recaptured it. It has the Great Wall, which is somewhat useful to us, but if it flips again, I'll raze it.
The Great Wall would be nice, but since most of our fighting will be offensive and not defensive, if it has to go, well, it has to go.

The Great Lighthouse we do want. How nice of Abe to build it for us!

This is a nice game. We did something like this (or I did) in the old International Friendly #3; just search for international friendly. Are you guys gonna bump up the difficulty to demigod or so for another one like this? With enough artillery, warriors only get into trouble against redlined muskets and rifles.

This is a nice game. We did something like this (or I did) in the old International Friendly #3; just search for international friendly. Are you guys gonna bump up the difficulty to demigod or so for another one like this? With enough artillery, warriors only get into trouble against redlined muskets and rifles.
Demigod.

:eek:

Let's see how we fare at Monarch first! :D

But I like the idea. :thumbsup:

This is a nice game. We did something like this (or I did) in the old International Friendly #3; just search for international friendly. Are you guys gonna bump up the difficulty to demigod or so for another one like this? With enough artillery, warriors only get into trouble against redlined muskets and rifles.

Yes Demigod might be pushing it! Let's actually win first on this level. ;)

We haven't been attacked yet, or at least none of the cities we have settled have been attacked, so walls are not that important. Nice to have but if we have to raze the English city then act like Roman legions and sack, burn, pillage and raze the city...in no particular order. :D

If London cannot be held then raze it.

I like the idea of settling on the irons around the map to deny their use to others.

Note - I'll be out of pocket through Saturday, as I'll be in Phoenix on business.

After some consideration, I think it might be best to abandon London now rather than risk another flip--I don't think the forces I have left in the area could recapture it (about 14 jags left, most of them wounded). If there are no objections, that's what I'll do.

What size is London now? And what was it defended with on the first flip?

Size 5. On the first flip, I had one jag inside the city. According to CivAssist II, we'd need 118 units in London to stop a flip.

Size 5. On the first flip, I had one jag inside the city. According to CivAssist II, we'd need 118 units in London to stop a flip.
Upon serious and studious reflection of London's cultural conversion problem, I must take a quote from Monty Python and the Holy Grail:

'Burn her anyway!'

Raze away, my friend, raze away.

Just wrapped up the set. To summarize:
-We captured Warwick and Liverpool, razed Nottingham, captured London, then recaptured and abandoned London after it flipped. England's down to 6 cities.
-We have 12 jags waiting near Camp Koala (a new town) ready to move toward Brighton (also a new town).
-I haven't encountered more than 3 spears defending any English town, including London. Warwick had 2 spears and 2 archers. This should be easy.
-Maya and Mongolia are still at war, but it seems pretty indecisive. There are some Mayan units in our territory moving toward Mongolia.
-We have 74 jags.

Writeup later, save now: 152697

Just wondering, on average how many jags do you bring to attack one city? And the average losses on each assault? Thanks

Didn't mean to put it off this long, but here it is:

Preflight: reassign citizens in Aztec Azaleas and Cancerville--C-ville making 2-turn jags now (AzAz still making 1-turn jags)
IBT:
-jags: AzAz (1), South Cowtown (5), C-ville (2)
-Ottomans build ToA
-Lizzie wants to talk--she'll give us poly, HBR, or dover; nope!
1: settle Camp Koala (Aztec name was Cempoala), start rax
IBT:
-Osman says remove or declare--we remove
-English capture 3 slaves
-English start STAW
-jags: AzAz (1), Into the Woods (3), Sonething non-Aztec (3), Just South of Rome (3), Fake Fur Coat (3)
2: settle Horse Hill, start rax
IBT:
-English archer kills elite jag outside Warwick (0-1)
-Mongols and Maya fight
-Abe builds the Great Lighthouse in Boston! must've had a leader
-jags: AzAz (1), Chicken Itza (15), Oasisville (4), Desert City (3), C-ville (2)
-JSOR riots
3:
-capture London and Great Wall: 3 jags win, 4 lose, 4 retreat (4-5); was defended by 3 spears; 6 resisters
-capture Warwick: 4 jags win, 7 lose, 1 retreats (8-12); was defended by 2 spears and 2 archers; 2 resisters
-kill English spear that captured slaves, take slaves back (9-12)
-kill archer near Horse Hill (10-12)
IBT:
-English horse kills jag (10-13)
-Maya start GLib and HG, Ottomans finish HG
-jags: AzAz (1), Cowtown (5)
4:
-kill English horse and archer, lose 1 jag (12-14)
-jag pillages English horses
IBT:
-horse kills jag (12-15)
-jags: AzAz (1), ITW (3), SNA (3), FFC (3), C-ville (2)
-settlers: Hooka Huacan (10)
-London flips!!!! lose 1 jag
-England starts STAW and GLib
5:
-recapture London: 2 jags win, 4 lose, 1 retreats (14-19); was defended by 2 spears; 5 resisters
-kill horse and archer, lose jag (16-20)
-abandon London
IBT: jags: AzAz (1), DC (3), S. Cowtown (5)
6: kill 2 archers, lose 1 jag (18-21)
IBT:
-kill horse and archer, lose 1 jag on defense (20-22)
-jags: AzAz (1), ITW (2), JSOR (4), O-ville (4), C-ville (2)
7: kill archer, lose jag (21-23)
IBT: jags: AzAz (1), SNA (3), FFC (3)
8: kill barb horse
IBT:
-Temujin says remove or declare--we remove
-jags: AzAz (1), ITW (2), DC (3), Cowtown (4), C-ville (2)
9: move northern stack into striking range of Nottingham, southern stack into striking range of Liverpool
IBT:
-kill archer (22-23)
-jags: AzAz (1), JSOR (3)
-settlers: Rome (15)
10:
-Liverpool captured: 2 jags win, 3 lose, 1 retreats (24-26)
-Nottingham razed: 2 jags win, 2 lose (26-28)
-both cities were defended by 2 spears
Notes:
-As mentioned before, we have a small stack ready to move toward Brighton, and the Liverpool stack should be able to take out Oxford pretty easily. The northern stack should be able to take at least 1 more town. After that, the survivors can pillage while awaiting reinforcements.
-I don't think England will last much longer, and I doubt it will ever be a threat again. After we're done with them, we should probably turn our attention back to the Maya.
-It just occurred to me that Liverpool's name should be changed to Pancreas Lake. :p

-Liverpool captured: 2 jags win, 3 lose, 1 retreats (24-26)
-Nottingham razed: 2 jags win, 2 lose (26-28)

Not too shabby. We lose a little bit more than we win, but we have plenty of Jaguars.

Lboogie13 is up!

Consider this a got it. I will play tomorrow evening after work. Any thoughts and suggestions would be appreciated.

Consider this a got it. I will play tomorrow evening after work. Any thoughts and suggestions would be appreciated.
I've not had a chance to open this game in over a month and we've had no screen shots in quite a while, so I can't be very specific on what needs to be done.

The Great Lighthouse is in Boston and that will help us attack the Ottomans (IIRC, they are on a large island). So we should consider attacking towards Boston to get that wonder.

The Mongols and Maya are fighting (The Great M & M War) so leave them alone and let them help us by weakening each other.

If America is at peace with everyone, including us, we need to change that. We can either declare on America or else MA with someone else and have them fight America also. Sort of tricky to suggest an MA without knowing more about our status. An America at war is an America is not researching new techs as rapidly, which in turn makes our plans easier.

We need to keep expanding our borders and building more cities. We need barracks in our cities and then we need to make vJags. We may need more workers to help connect our new cities and to road to them.

I'd have to really study the game right now, but I've thought that a road through the jungles east of Rome made a lot of sense because it cut down on movement time when our Jags head to England or America. Jungle roads take 9WT to build so it is either a long term project or a multi-worker project. I really don't know how feasible either method is.

If you have questions, feel free to ask.

:worship: Pre-flight: Everything looks good. Plenty of Jags in good position. England is going down. I will switch my attention to the Mongols if I can do England enough damage. Hit enter

IBT - Liverpool riots

360 - hire an entertainer in Liverpool, complete road to Warwick, attack Oxford, 2-3 with 3 retreats. There were only 2 spears defending. 5 resisters but keep the city. Garrison 5 units to quell the rebellion. Move stacks towards Brighton and Canterbury (there are rumors of magical chocolate eggs made in the city, or is that Cadbury....)

IBT - Mangols settle new city between Liverpool and Warwick, Liverpool comes under control.

370 - kill random barb, Canterbury is taken, 2-3 with 2 retreats. Again there is 2 spears defending and 5 resisters. I garrision the with several units and move the rest south towards Hastings.

IBT - Mongols ask us to kindly leave their territory and I comply. English archer retreats our Jag. We love the chief day :worship: in Oasisville.

380 - Attack on Brighton is victorious, the city is auto-razed. 3 wins, no losses and 2 retreats. The RNG gods were generous. There were 2 spears and 1 archer. Oxford resistance is done (all those academics apparently don't make good rebels) but the city riots. MM the city.

IBT - Oxford is under control, Liverpool resistance is done.

390 - kill random barb, unit moves

IBT - Mayans and Mongols continue to engage in meaningless, fruitless battles.

400 - Founded Texaco Oil Co. (Aztec name was Txalmanco), rax in 20. Also found By the Bay by a little bay on the western coast, rax in 20.

IBT - barb kills 3 unprotected workers :mad:

410 - Disberse barb camp in retaliation for our slain workers. Founded Stop Sign City (Aztec name was Hexag-something or other. Hexagon=stop sign), rax in 20.

IBT - zzzz

420 - Attack Hastings. It is defended by 2 very stubborn spears. 2-5 with 4 retreats. I capture city and 1 slave. There are 5 resisters. The English are basically finished at this point. The Mongols have been weakened and distracted by their war with the Mayans and we have huge stacks near their territory so I declare war and move into their territory.

I attack Kazan and go 2-1 with 1 retreat. Again there were 2 spears defending. I capture the city with no resisters but no citizens working. I attack Hoyd (Mongol) and go 3-4 with 6 retreats. 2 spears and 1 archer defending. I capture the city, with 3 resisters and 4 slaves. I raze another Mongol city near Kazan. Unfortunately, I forgot to note the name. :blush: In any event, go 1-2 with 6 retreats. There was only 1 spear defending. I defeat 4 cities in one turn so I decide my jags need a break. :hammer:

IBT - lose 2 slaves to barb horse that appears from the jungle. :mad: Time to start protecting workers and seek out that stupid barb camp. My fault about the workers.

430 - Found Texas Panhandle (Aztec name is Texepan). Sorry, today is not my day for creative names. Rax in 20. Move units around.

IBT - zzzz

440 - zzzzz

IBT - zzzzz

450 - kill 2 barbs and disperse camp. Kill random Mongol archer. Attack Tabriz, the current Mongol capital. 3 wins, 8 losses and 5 retreats. RNG made it expensive. 3 spears were defending the city. This is the first time I saw more than 2 spears defending. I decide to keep the city and try to quell the 3 resisters.

The RNG is a little kinder with my attack on Darhan 2 wins, 1 loss and 1 retreat. :) Not a bad attack considering 2 spears defended the city. I take the city with no resisters, rax in 20.

The next attack is Newcastle, the last English city I can see. 4 wins, 1 loss and only 2 retreats. :ar15: Thank you RNG! :bowdown: 3 spears and 1 horse defended Newcastle. I garrison 6 units there. That should be the destruction of the....wait a minute. :( The English have Dover left somewhere as their last city. I think it is south of the Americans. You can see the outline of a city but not the actual name.

Post-flight: There are 6 units in Newcastle and 4 in Hastings just to the north available to attack Dover. It make take some time to get down there however and Newcastle and Hastings are still rebelling.

The Mongols only have 2 cities left, one looks like it is recently settled and has a pop. of 1. There is a stack of 10 jags headed for Almarikh, the other Mongol city with a pop. of 3. That stack is 1 turn away and there are 2 more jags right behind the stack. We have approximately 70 jags left and several settlers. There is still many jags left to move. I wanted to leave them for the next player to decide their plan of attack. I took down 10 cities and settled 3 new cities. I took my best guess about city placement as there are no recent dotmaps.

152790

Some Eye Candy;


450 AD Ottomans
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/CBob02/450AD_Ottoman.jpg


450 AD Mongols
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/CBob02/450AD_Mongols.jpg


450 AD Maya and America
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/CBob02/450AD_MayaAmerica.jpg



Lots of Mayan troops around our cities; not a good time to make war on Maya. May try to MA with Maya vs. America to draw Mayan troops away from our cities and into the field. Reinforcments would be targeted on Mayan cities while the Mayan Army is away trying to kill American units. May not work. If we betrayed the Mayans before 20 turns were up we would trash our reputation, which is generally a No-No is SGs.

Need to capture and hold Boston for the Wonder it has (Great Lighthouse). That will help us deal with the Ottomans.

These ideas are not very well thought and may not work. They just seem like they could work. :crazyeye:

I think you are on target. The Americans definitely seem to be the next logical targets. I like the idea of drawing Maya in as well. They may go for it although we'll probably have to pay. Otherwise, I'd say just go it alone. I think we could wage a 2 front war and get rid of Ugly at the same time.

450 AD Despotism 7.0.3
1851 gold +58 gpt
Republic (-- turns)

City Builds

Aztec Azalesa (8); vJag in 1, zero growth. 1 turn vJags
Warwick (2): barracks in 3, grows in 4.
Rome (7): vJag in 3, grows in 29. 5 turn vJags
Oxford (4): barracks in 12, grows in 5.
Chicken Itza (3): vJag in 13, zero growth. 15 turn vJags
Texaco Oil Co. (1) barracks in 15, grows in 5.
Teayo (5): vJag in 8, grows in 3. 15 turn vJags
Hovd (3): barracks in 17, grows in 16.
Hooka Huacan (3): settler in 3, grows in 1.
Camp Koala (2): barracks in 1, grows in 1.
Into the Woods (6): vJag in 1, zero growth. 2 turn vJags
Tabriz (4): barracks in 20, zero growth.
Tepexpan (1): barracks in 18, grows in 8,
Something non-Aztec (6): vJag in 3, grows in 1. 3 turn vJags
Hastings (5): barracks in 17, grows in 16.
Canterbury (5): barracks in 12, grows in 2.
Frontierville (3): vJag in 9, zero growth. 15 turn vJags
Just South of Rome (6): vJag in 2, zero growth. 3 turn vJags
Fake Fur Coat (6): vJag in 3, grows in 9999. 2 turn vJags
Oasisville (6): vJag in 1, zero growth. 3 turn vJags
Newcastle (4): barracks in 20, grows in 10.
Desert City (6): vJag in 1, grows in 9999. 3 turn vJags
Cowtown (6): vJag in 1, grows in 9999. 4 turn vJags
South Cowtown (6): vJag in 1, grows in 9999. 5 turn vJags
Cancerville (8): vJag in 1, grows in 20. 2 turn vJags
Liverpool (3): barracks in 11, grows in 5.
San Diego State (2): settler in 23, grows in 8.
Darhan (2): barracks in 20, starves.
Horse Hill (3): barracks in 2; grows in 7.
By the Bay (1): barracks in 15, grows in 5.
Stop Sign City (1): barracks in 16, grows in 6.


City Build Summary

vJags [14] (Aztec Azaleas, Rome, Chicken Itza, Teayo, Into the Woods, Something non-Aztec, Frontierville, Just South of Rome, Fake Fur Coat, Oasisville, Desert City, Cowtown, South Cowtown and Cancerville)
Barracks [15] (Warwick, Oxford, Texaco Oil Co., Hovd, Camp Koala, Tabriz, Tepexpan, Hastings, Canterbury, Newcastle, Liverpool, Darhan, Horse Hill, By the Bay and Stop Sign City)
Settler [2] (Hooka Huacan and San Diego State)


Aztec Military

02 Settlers
09 Workers
01 Spearman
04 Galley
85 Jaguars
Military Upkeep

124 Allowed Units
101 Actual Units
000 Cost per turn



Resources

Strategic

2 Horses

Luxury

01 Wine
02 Furs
01 Incense
03 Ivory
02 Silks
01 Gems



Foreign City Count

03 America
01 England
06 Maya
03 Mongol (two visible, one to the NW with only the border showing)
04 Ottomans


Fiddle with the cities (in no real order)
Set South Cowtown to zero growth
Chicken Itza, fire the specialists, everyone becomes farmers.
Teayo, vJag -> settler, 23 turns, will whip in 3 turns.
Hastings, work the plains insead of the woods (city nets 1 shield per turn due to corruption).
Liverpool barracks -> settler, 21 turns, will whip.
Fire both clowns in Darhan.

Turn 0 450 AD

Foreign Affairs
We had an open ended ROP with Abe Lincoln. We quietly let that expire.
Maya have an ROP with Abe and don't want to undo it. Not even for all of our gold (1851).
Maya want 540 for four workers. Nope.
So, no deal with the Maya.

Maya have 14 units visible in and around our cities. I hope they are heading north to fight the Mongols. We have 12 units just outside the Mongol capital of Almarikh. Maya are about 10 turns away from this city.

The Great Lighthouse
With Galleys we stand to lose half of any invasion fleet when we attackthe Ottomans, due to sea tiles, unless we have the Great Lighthouse. Boston is building it and we have plenty of cash, so we investigate Boston for 36 gold.

Boston 450 AD
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/CBob02/450AD_Boston65.jpg


We can build it faster than that.
Galleys cost 30, vJags 15 and each galley can transport 2 vJags, so each galley would be worth 60 shields.
The Great Lighthouse cost 300 shields.
So, the Great Lighthouse is cheaper if we expect to lose more than 5 loaded ships. We'll lose that many easily, moving Jags across the sea.
We need the Great Lighthouse, but we can't wait for Boston.
Cancerville is our most productive coastal city, netting 10 spt, and from here could build the Lighthouse in 29 turns. We could build a harbor first (2 more turns) and plant forests on the tobacco to boost production to around 12 spt net. That builds the Great Lighthouse in 28 turns and assumes that all the tobacco tiles are made into forest before we begin the Wonder build. Workers are too far away to change the tobacco to forests, so we just switch Cancerville to The Great Lighthouse.

Workers
We have slaves on the mountain E of Hovd; don't know why. This area is pretty well roaded already.
What we need are roads to connect our unconnected cities (Darhan, Tepexpan) and roads to where we want to put new cities. Out in the boonies we don't need to be building mines (Liverpool) or extra roads (Hovd-Warwick). These cities will be very corrupt, netting 1 shield per turn, no matter what we do.
Move those 4 west, off the mountain.
Wake other workers.

Settler
This is not a good spot to build; the new city will not be connected to our trade network.
Moves S onto jungle.

Jags
eJag in Oxford moves to Liverpool, in case the Mongols in Mandalgovi get frisky.
Move Jag into Hovd for crowd control.
Move Jag to the slaves SE of Hovd.
Fan out a stack of Jags near a Maya Horse that is E of Camp Koala, to encourage that Horse to move North, not West.
Move a Jag to protect an awaken slave NW of Hovd.

Tabriz barracks -> galley, to explore the north coast, 30 turns.

[IBT]
Looks like we dodge around the Maya and fight the Americans/English while the Mayan fight the Mongols.
Or we take the Mayans on right now.

I like the first option but am open to the second.

And the save is >>HERE<< (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58993/CBob02_AD_450.SAV).

With Galleys we stand to lose half of any invasion fleet when we attackthe Ottomans, due to sea tiles, unless we have the Great Lighthouse.



Wouldn't that be two thirds? I thought it was a one in three chance of not sinking?

If we are going to build the GL ourselves; we are in control of, or are in the process of controlling the iron that could be claimed by our enemies; and all enemies are an equal threat, then whoever we can take out the fastest become the primary targets.

We don't know where Liz's last city is, so we might as well make peace with her for whatever techs that give us options. I don't really think we want to change much but it's not like we're going to give anything away. Personally, I think we can manage a 2-front war. The Mayans are a pain. If Abe doesn't get the GL, he's going to get something that may help us. I don't think there is a rush with him unless he has access to iron.

I should have started some boat builds and stupidly didn't. I expect 30 galleys will serve our purposes nicely (I'm thinking 30 cats and 30 Jags in the first landing if the Turks have gunpowder by that time). I'm assuming the goal is to win while still in the AA. We could upgrade our cats and still be building Jags. However, if we are going to do this, let's do it as a primitive empire.

I think the new cities should be built to monopolize iron as a first priority. After that, our road network is lacking. We should probably have a road and/or small navy (while they are waiting for the rest of the landing fleet) to facilitate troop transport on the East side of our sub-continent. We also should consolidate the NE road we have. That needs to be a continuous branch of culture with strategic position (i.e. hills and mountains) fortified with strategic towns. That is the road for both Mayan and US invasion and the road to flank Ugly (and steal his only access to iron) while another force is driving NW. Even if the towns will suck, I think it is worth while laying them down.

We really need a good, continuous road network that will shuffle troops from our core out. The ideal situation would be if the road network had limited junctions where we stationed a couple Jags to monitor movement and limit enemy use of our roads. Regardless, our production is about as good as it's going to get so the only thing that can facilitate reinforcing the front lines is efficient movement on roads.

As long as you have a stack of 20 on each front with reinforcements coming, you are ready to make that a battle front. I was working on a second stack while taking the English cities. We really only need 1 stack per area. The limit is the reinforcements. Keeping 3 stacks going would be possible if they were stacks of 30 (allowing more units to return to friendly territory to heal). A stack of 20 is effectively an army though. The AI won't attack it, especially as we have solo reinforcements moving behind it. We get 3 of those stacks, we can go AW for the rest of the game :)

I should have started some boat builds and stupidly didn't. I expect 30 galleys will serve our purposes nicely (I'm thinking 30 cats and 30 Jags in the first landing if the Turks have gunpowder by that time). I'm assuming the goal is to win while still in the AA. We could upgrade our cats and still be building Jags. However, if we are going to do this, let's do it as a primitive empire.

The Ottomans are isolated and stupid. They have Poly, we have three techs they don't; Lit is one of them; I forget the other two. So when we attack we'll face Spears, Archers and Warriors. They have no contact on the mainland except us.

We won't be able to focus on the Ottomans until the Great Lighthouse completes. We can build up our navy in the meantime; we have plenty of time. Once we get the Great Lighthouse, we get an ROP with the Ottomans, which will let us land our forces over several turns. We'll include a settler in the mix also. And when we are ready, we declare war. Since this will be about 35 turns from now, at the earliest, the Ottomans could be the sole remaining AI, and the rep hit from the ROP rape will be meaningless.

In the boonies I plan to pop rush some settlers. I'll emphasize food production over shield production to help with the pop rushing.

Catapults cost 30 and vJags 15 (IIRC). But they (Cats) hit harder, even if they can't run away. So we should be building them too, if we have the roads in place to get them to the front lines.

Wouldn't that be two thirds? I thought it was a one in three chance of not sinking?
We're not seafaring. :(

We're not seafaring. :(

Indeed, which is why you stand to lose two thirds of your fleet, statistically at least; or am I missing something?

I think the new cities should be built to monopolize iron as a first priority.
I'll try to make that happen. I hadn't thought of it. :goodjob:

After that, our road network is lacking...We really need a good, continuous road network that will shuffle troops from our core out. The ideal situation would be if the road network had limited junctions where we stationed a couple Jags to monitor movement and limit enemy use of our roads.

In other words, road the marshes and jungles east of Cowtown towards Maya, right? And make our current roads straighter.
Regardless, our production is about as good as it's going to get so the only thing that can facilitate reinforcing the front lines is efficient movement on roads.

Yeah, too bad that is so true.

As long as you have a stack of 20 on each front with reinforcements coming, you are ready to make that a battle front. I was working on a second stack while taking the English cities. We really only need 1 stack per area. The limit is the reinforcements. Keeping 3 stacks going would be possible if they were stacks of 30 (allowing more units to return to friendly territory to heal). A stack of 20 is effectively an army though. The AI won't attack it, especially as we have solo reinforcements moving behind it. We get 3 of those stacks, we can go AW for the rest of the game :)

We have 85 Jags so we could almost make 3 stacks of 30. We'll need to walk a long way to get to America, so I don't expect a lot of action on these turns.

We could renew our attacks on the Mongols, but I want Mayan units to bleed and die doing that, while we get into position to attack them from two sides after the Yanks and Brits are gone. One 30 unit stack from the East, one 30 unit stack from the West (old America and the last of England) and some smaller stacks to keep the Mongol fighters away from their cities.

May make peace with England and MA against America, just to make our job easier. Won't make peace right away. I'll wait until we have a stack ready to move on America before we MA; not sure when I'll make peace.

@Lboogie13: Excellent job on taking out 10 cities! I just wish these turns could be that exciting.
:salute:

EDIT:
With any luck I plan to play and post tonight.

Indeed, which is why you stand to lose two thirds of your fleet, statistically at least; or am I missing something?
Well, as I understood it, a galley has a 50% chance of surviving the IBT if not in a coastal tile. ( Or was that just PTW?)

And I was just focused on a one-way job with one turn at sea. Coming back to refill would run the same risk, as would taking more new units to the Ottomans.

The chance of a galley surviving two turns at sea would be 25% (or 75% of not surviving.)

With the Great Lighthouse we can survive a turn in a sea tile. And we get our movement bumped up to '4' from '3'. For us, it is a good deal. For the Ottomans, well, probably not. :evil:

Well, as I understood it, a galley has a 50% chance of surviving the IBT if not in a coastal tile. ( Or was that just PTW?)



It may be as well to check it out; it was my understanding that the chances of sinking are 2 out of 3, 1 out of 2 if seafaring.

.

@Lboogie13: Excellent job on taking out 10 cities! I just wish these turns could be that exciting.
:salute:


Why, thank you CommandoBob. It is nice to know that someone noticed and nice to know that I can still contribute while still being a relative novice Civ player. I have really learned a great deal playing with you gents. :D

(Was only able to get one turn played; should do better tomorrow night.)

[450 AD After advice]
Talk peace to England. Elizabeth is willing to deal.
If we offer peace she will offer:

Literature
Horseback Riding
Polytheism
Currency
45 of 45 gold
13 gpt

England has an ROP with America, which cannot be broken. She won't let go of Republic, either. I think we can win this in Despotism, so I am not worried about lacking Republic.

It will take us about 20 turns or so to finish off America, so 20 turns of peace with England seems reasonable. We have to go through America to find England, anyway.
We make the deal.

For 48 gold we investigate the only remaining English city: Dover.

Dover, 2nd English Capital 450 AD
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/CBob02/450AD_Dover.jpg


Well, just great. Dover is on an island, SE of America/Maya. Two spears, no barracks, a library and harbor, building a temple, due in 16 turns.

England 450 AD
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/CBob02/450AD_England.jpg

Hit Enter.

Mayas head northward.

AzAz vJag -> vJag, 1 turn.
Koala rax -> vJag, 15 turns.
Into the Woods vJag -> vJag, 2 turns.
Oasisville vJag -> vJag, 3 turns.
Desert City vJag -> vJag, 3 turns.
Cowtown vJag -> vJag, 4 turns.
South Cowtown vJag -> vJag, 4 turns.

[I] 1 460 AD

Resisting Cities
Hovd (3) resistance is over.
Tabriz (3) resistance is over.
Hastings (5) resistance is over. City will starve (without help), make everyone a tax collector for one turn.
Canterbury (5) has 3 resisters.
Newcastle (4) resistance is over.

Build Jungle Boogie 2NW of the Mayan city of Palenque.
Jungle Boogie grows in 7, catapult in 20.

Whip a settler in Liverpool, now size 2.
Whip a settler in Newcastle, now size 2.
Whip a settler in Hastings, now size 3.

SettlerToTheHill, S of San Deigo State, will move 5 E to the hill 2S of Palenque. Building here means 2 grassland roads and 2 marsh roads.
Wake Aztec Workers on the hill near San Diego State that were making a mine and move them to road marsheses. Five workers from this tile and another nearby worker give 6WT, which is what it takes to road one marsh tile.

Irrigate the ivory South of Liverpool (was mined).

vJag vs. cHorse, we win (1 of 1).

See Iron 2W of By the Bay in no man's land.
See Iron 3SW of Almarikh (Mongol) in no man's land.
See Iron W of Hovd in our land.
See Iron between Chicago and Calakmul, unclaimed.
See Iron W of Teayo in our land.
See Iron NW of Aztec Azaleas in our land.

Whip a settler in Chicken Itza, now size 2 (for the Chicago Iron).

First priority of our settlers is to deny Iron to anyone else.
Chicken Itza's settler is spoken for.
Liverpool's settler needs to move 3W and 1NW to settle on a hill outside and SW Almarikh.


And the save is >>HERE<< (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58993/CBob02_AD_460.SAV).

We are at war with only the Mongols. We are getting ready to fight America first, then dogpile on Maya.

Brief update:

500 AD

Maya
We may have to go to war with Maya. I was getting ready to send a settler to 'protect' the iron near Chicago, leaving from Chicken-Itza, planning to sneak through the gap between the Mayan cities there. Well, they've closed that gap and look like they are ready to build another city.

Which means we can't walk to America without an ROP with Maya, which I don't want to have.

And of course, most of our forces are up north, or so it seems.

We can make peace with the Mongols. We can get peace, an MA vs. Maya and Republic from the Mongols. Ugly has only three cities; Mayas have 6 and will have 7 next turn.

I'm inclined to make the deal with Ugly. He'll still be fighting for his life with the Mayan units near him.

In fact, it might be better to wait two turns to make this deal. That will allow the Mayan foot units to get closer to Mongol cities than Aztec cities. And it gives us time to move units to the Mayan front.

Military
We have over 100 vJags and either 4 or 5 settlers.

Swamp
We are roading two roads through the swamp between us and the Maya. One is coastal, the other is not. We will have a city near the Maya, either on a hill (if Maya don't build there first) or in a jungle tile.

Iron
We have one settler heading for the Iron near the Mongol capital, about two turns away from building.
We have another settler trying to get to the Iron near By the Bay, but Mayans are blocking the road. It may build on a hill instead.

It will be a while before I play. Got to get home first. I'll post the current game situation before I continue playing.

[460 AD IBT]
Mayans move north.
America wants to talk.
Abe wants to sell us Monarchy for Currency and 270 gold. We laugh.
Barbarian promotes a Jag to Elite.

AzAz vJag -> vJag, 1 turn.
Hastings settler -> cat, 20 turns.
South of Rome vJag -> vJag, 3 turns.
Horse Hill barracks -> vJag, 15 turns.

2 470 AD

Resisting Cities
Canterbury (5) has 2 resisters.

Workers01 to 06 road the hill 2SE of San Diego State. Road completes.
SettlerToTheHill E into marsh.
Road the grassland N-NE of South Cowtown.

Rushed the settler in Liverpool too soon, it needs to grow before it can birth the settler.
Same is true for Newcastle, must wait nine turns.
Send a slave to Newcastle to get the settler sooner.
SettlerHastings moves W-SW-SW, ready to make a city next turn.
Spilt the slave stack near Liverpool; six slaves will road west to the Iron. Two will road to the Iron near By the Bay.

By the Bay barracks -> catapult, 13 turns.
Stop Sign City barracks -> catapult, 14 turns.
Whip a settler in Oxford, now size 3.


AzAz vJag -> vJag, 1 turn.
Warwick barracks -> vJag, 15 turns.
Rome vJag -> vJag, 5 turns.
Oxford settler (SettlerOxford) -> catapult, 20 turns.
Hooka Hucan settler (SettlerHH) -> settler, 10 turns.
Into the Woods vJag -> vJag, 2 turns.
Something non-Aztec vJag -> vJag, 3 turns.
Fake Fur Coat vJag -> vJag, 3 turns.

[I] 3 480 AD

Resisting Cities
Canterbury (5) has 1 resister.

Worker01 to 06 move east into marsh.
SettlerToTheHill moves east, marsh to marsh.

Meet Slaves A to I.

SettlerOxford heads to Liverpool.
SettlerHastings founds ChicoNuts, grows in 10, catapult in 20.
SettlerHH heads north.

Whip a settler in Teayo, now at size 5.


We lose a galley to some barbarians.

AzAz vJag -> vJag, 1 turn.
Chicken Itza settler (SettlerCI) -> vJag, 15 turns.
Teayo settler (SettlerTeayo) -> vJag, 15 turns.
Oasisville vJag -> vJag, 3 turns.
Desert City vJag -> vJag, 3 turns.
Liverpool settler (SettlerLiverpool) -> catapult, 20 turns.

[I] 4 490 AD

Resisting Cities
Canterbury (5) resistance is over.

Start and complete a marsh road.
SettlerToTheHill moves E.
SettlerHH moves N.
Slave joins Newcastle to release the settler.
SettlerLiverpool heads south.
SettlerTeayo heads east.
SettlerCI heads to the Chicago Iron.


AzAz vJag -> vJag, 1 turn.
Into the Woods vJag -> vJag, 2 turns.
South of Rome vJag -> vJag, 3 turns.
Newcastle settler (SettlerNewcastle) -> catapult, 20 turns.
Cowtown vJag -> vJag, 4 turns.
South Cowtown vJag -> vJag, 4 turns.

Mayas attack Mandalgovi and lose.

[I] 5 500 AD

SettlerToTheHill moves E.
SettlerHH moves N.
SlaveNewcastle.
SettlerLiverpool heads south.
SettlerTeayo heads east.
SettlerCI heads to the Chicago Iron.

We attack a lone Mongol Archer before he can attack us. Lose 1 and win 1 (2 of 3).

Mayas have added a new city that blocks our way to the Chicago Iron. And they look ready to build another city next turn, just before we get there.
We have no deals with the Maya. They stand in the way of us and America.
And of course the bulk of our Army is in the north nearer the Mongols than the Mayas.

We may have to declare war on the Maya next turn.

If we make peace with the Mongols, they will join us in an MA vs. Maya and throw in Republic.
An MA with the Mongols protects our northern cities.
No decisions yet.

500 AD Mayan Border
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/CBob02/500AD_MayaBorder.jpg

The easy way to the Chicago Iron is closed.
E of Chicken Itza is SettlerTeayo and about 8 vJags.
2E of Chicken Itza is SettlerCI and 4 eJags.

500 AD Mongol Iron
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/CBob02/500AD_MongolIron.jpg


Stack of 18 Jags near Mongol Capital. Think we need to take it out before we make peace to 'protect' the iron and our city from Mongol cultural pressure.

Settler is in the forest south of the capital.

We can also get the Mongol city of Ulaanbaatter (?) for peace. It is north, in the fog.

500 AD The Great Swamp
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/CBob02/500AD_MayaSwamp.jpg


Mayan Settler pair in the ruins covering a grassland, expect a new city built on the ruins this IBT. No place else for them to move to.
We have SettlerToTheHill on the hill NW of the ruins, but he might be one turn late.
Two marsh tiles to road with 6 workers (6 WT, north path), complete in one turn; and 2 slaves and 2 workers (3WT, coastal path), complete in two turns.

500 AD Mayan Units
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/CBob02/500AD_MayanUnits.jpg


Seven Mayan units between Darhan and Warwick.
Four Javelins NW of By the Bay, one Horse next to Mongol city.

And the save is >>HERE<< (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58993/CBob02_AD_500.SAV).

We definitely need to go after Maya soon an we are in a position to take out Ugly. We do need to start eliminating some of these Civs rather than just beating them down. I think the stack can probably do the job of taking out the Mongols so peace isn't really necessary. I think the troops in place can handle Ugly.

You are in position to make a good shot at Maya next turn. I also think the objective should be to take them off the board. In the West, the settler pair can go to the Hill SEish of Liverpool to plant the town (gets the wheat and is a beautiful kill-zone) as we can't effectively protect him for a the turns it will take to settle the iron if we at war with Maya.

The Jags in Camp Koala and Warwick should clear out those Mayan forces Around Warwick. If you start with the jags on the grass and in Camp Kola, theres a chance that you could clear the West in a single turn (with some mopping up the next turn). The Mayan units in the North shoudl be easily handled as well.

You can use the settler near Newcastle to build an attack position on the hill S of Newcastle while the troop there start moving toward Tikal via the mountains (2 turns: hill, FP->Mt). Those Jags will need some help so I suggest the 4 jags with the settler near Chicken be sent to the hill SE of Tikal. The settler itself, should probably move back and wait for the big stack to raze Calakmul.

The Jags S of Palenque on the hill and in the swamp are enough to take out the city that Maya will plant on the IBT, and can then proceed to Palenque.

After that, newly built jags can just be sent East. We have a number of locations we want to control so I think we need to keep on the settler builds. We also want to keep building a navy.

I think how you deal with the U.S. throughout all that is, I think, up to you. They were at war the Mayans before so maybe they could join your war.

Once the GL is built, troops can be loaded in Something non-Aztec and make it to the Turks in 3 turns safely. However, we should probably focus on clearing the continent before we seriously go after the islands. If we can destroy the Mongols, U.S. and Myans, we will have hordes of troops to throw at the Ottomans. It won't matter if they have pikes.

(After talking to the team)
Keep war with Mongols, aim to eliminate.
Attack Maya.
New city South of Newcastle.
New city on the hill SE of Liverpool.


AzAz vJag -> vJag, 1 turn.
Something non-Aztec vJag -> vJag, 3 turns.
Fake Fur Coat vJag -> vJag, 3 turns.

[I] 6 510 AD

Battle of Almarikh, Current Mongol Capital
vJag vs. rSpear, Jag retreats (2 of 4).
vJag vs. rSpear, Jag wins (3 of 5).

Good News
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/CBob02/510AD_AlmarikhTrimmed.jpg


And we destroy Almarikh.

Mandalgovi (1) is the current Mongol capital.

Send 10 Jags northward to Ulaanblaater (?).

We have units inside Mayan territory, move them out to allow a 'clean' declaration of war.

SettlerOxford moves into the city building positition.
SettlerNewcastle heads back to his city.


Mayas lose 2 Javelins destroying the Mongol capital of Mandalgovi.

AzAz vJag -> vJag, 1 turn.
Into the Woods vJag -> vJag, 2 turns.
Oasisville vJag -> vJag, 3 turns.
Desert City vJag -> vJag, 3 turns.

[I] 7 520 AD

We find the last (?) Mongol capital of Ulaabaatar.


Aztec Surprise!
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/CBob02/520AD_MayaDoWTrimmed.jpg

We declare war on Maya.

Build Tarzania in the jungles of the Great Swamp; grows in 10, worker in 10.

Minor Skirmishes in No-Mans'-Land
vJag vs. rJav, Jag loses (3 of 6).
vJag vs. rJav, Jag wins and promotes (4 of 7).
vJag vs. rJav, Jag loses (4 of 8).
vJag vs. vJav 3/4, Jag loses, Jav promotes (4 of 9).
vJag vs. eJav 4/5, Jag retreats (4 of 10).
vJag vs. eJav 3/5, Jag retreats (4 of 11).
vJag vs. eJav 3/5, Jag loses (4 of 12).
vJag vs. eJav 2/5, Jag retreats (4 of 13).
vJag vs. eJav 2/5, Jag wins (5 of 14).
And we capture a slave, no, a real worker!

vJag vs. eJav, Jag retreats (5 of 15).
vJag vs. eJav, Jag loses (5 of 16).
vJag vs. eJav 4/5, Jag loses (5 of 17).
vJag vs. rJav, Jag wins and promotes to Elite (6 of 18).
vJag vs. eJav 2/5, Jag dies (6 of 19).
vJag vs. eJav 1/5, Jag wins (7 of 20).
And we capture another full worker.

vJag vs. rSpear, Jag retreats (7 of 21).
vJag vs. rSpear, Jag retreats (7 of 22).
vJag vs. vJav, Jag dies (7 of 23).
vJag vs. rSpear 2/3, Jag dies (7 of 24).
vJag vs. rSpear 2/3. Jag wins (8 of 25).
vJag vs. rJav 2/3, Jag wins and promotes to Elite (9 of 26).
vJag vs. rSpear 1/3, Jag wins (10 of 27).

vJag vs. vJav, Jag dies (10 of 28).
vJag vs. vJav, Jag retreats (10 of 29).
vJag vs. vJav, Jag retreats (10 of 30).
vJag vs. vJav, Jag dies, Jav promotes (10 of 31).
vJag vs. eJav 3/5, Jag wins (11 of 32).
We capture a full worker.

vJag vs. rJav, Jag retreats (11 of 33).
eJag vs. rJav, Jag retreats (11 of 34).
vJag vs. rJav, Jag retreats (11 of 35).
eJag vs. rJav, Jag wins (12 of 36).

vJag vs. rJav 2/3, in Mongol ruins, Jag wins (13 of 37).

vJag vs. rJav, Jag retreats (13 of 38).
vJag vs. rJav 2/3, Jag wins and promotes to Elite (14 of 39).
vJag vs. rHorse, Jag wins (15 of 40).

Mayans are gone from the North.

SettlerOxford builds CoyotePack, near the old Mongol capital ruins, grows in 20, catapult in 20.
SettlerLiverpool builds Hills of Wheat, between Liverpool and By the Bay, grows in 10, catapult in 20.

Battle of Lazapa (1) Maya
eJag vs. vJav, Jag retreats (15 of 41).
eJag vs. vJav, Jag wins (16 of 42).

Good News
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/CBob02/520AD_LazapaTrimmed.jpg


And Lazapa is destroyed.

vJag vs. rJav, Jag retreats (16 of 43).
vJag vs. rJav 2/3, Jag wins and promotes to Elite (17 of 44).
vJag vs. rJav, Jag dies (17 of 45).
vJag vs. rJav, Jag dies, Jav promotes (17 of 46).
vJag vs. vJav, Jag dies, Jav promotes again (17 of 47).
vJag vs. eJav 4/5, Jag dies (17 of 48).
vJag vs. eJav 4/5, Jag retreats (17 of 49).
vJag vs. eJav 2/5, Jag wins (18 of 50).
And we capture a full worker.

Battle for Calakmui (2) May
vJag vs. rSpear, Jag retreats (18 of 51).
A second rSpear defends, so we'll look elsehere this turn.

vJag vs. rJav, Jag dies (18 of 52).
vJag vs. rJav 1/3, Jag wins (19 of 53).
And we capture a full worker.

Don't know why, but every time we captured a Maya worker this turn, it stayed a worker. It did not become a slave. According to our Military Advisor, we have lost two workers to the Maya.

Allowed units: 144
Total units: 117

Lots of fighting, lots of loses, and not all of the ours. We started at 3 wins in 5 conflicts. We ended with 19 wins of 53 conflicts, or 16 wins of 48 conflicts this turn. We retreated 15 times this turn. So we killed 16 units, retreated 15 times and lost 17 units.
Not too shabby.
But we might lose some wounded on the IBT.


We lose a redlined vJag at Calakmui.
We lose a worker to a barb Warrior near ChicoNuts.
Mayan workers flee to cities.
An American settler pair is wandering around.

AzAz vJag -> vJag, 1 turn.
Rome vJag -> vJag, 5 turns.

Bad News
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/CBob02/520ADIBT_CanterburyTrimmed.jpg


Canterbury flips to England. We lose a vJag.

Just South of Rome vJag -> vJag, 3 turns.

[I] 8 530 AD

Battle of Ulaanbaater (1), current Mongol capital
vJag vs. rSpear, Jag wins (20 of 54).

Good News
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/CBob02/530AD_UlaanbaatarTrimmed.jpg


And we destroy Ulaanbaatar.
We capture 2 slaves.

Better News
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/CBob02/530AD_MongolsTrimmed.jpg


And the Mongols are just a distant bad memory.
The Mongol attack stack, now 7 units, heads south.

5 workers make a jungle road to the dyes north of Tarzania.

Battle of Kaminaljuyu (1), newest Mayan town
vJag vs. rSpear, Jag retreats (20 of 55, 17th retreat).
vJag vs. rSpear, Jag retreats (20 of 56, 18th retreat).
vJag vs. rSpear, Jag retreats (20 of 57, 19th retreat).
vJag vs. rSpear, Jag dies, Spear promotes (20 of 58, 19th retreat).
vJag vs. rSpear, Jag retreats (20 of 59, 20th retreat).
We're attacking across a river. No wonder we did so bad.

Battle of Tikal (8), current Mayan capital
vJag vs. rSpear, Jag wins (21 of 60, 20 retreats).
vJag vs. rSpear, Jag retreats (21 of 61, 21 retreats).
vJag vs. rSpear, Jag retreats (21 of 62, 22 retreats).
vJag vs. rSpear, Jag retreats (21 of 63, 23 retreats).
vJag vs. rSpear, Jag retreats (21 of 64, 24 retreats).
vJag vs. rSpear, Jag dies (21 of 65, 24 retreats).
vJag vs. rSpear, Jag dies, Spear romotes (21 of 65, 24 retreats).
vJag vs. vSpear, Jag retreats (21 of 66, 25 retreats).
vJag vs. rSpear, Jag retreats (21 of 67, 26 retreats).
vJag vs. rSpear, Jag retreats (21 of 68, 27 retreats).
Two wounded Spears are in Tikal.

SettlerNewcastle builds South Newcastle 2S of Newcastle; grows in 10, catapult in 20.

Let a lot of Jags heal.


Some Barb Horses appear.
AzAz vJag -> vJag, 1 turn.
Hooker Huacan settler (HH2) -> galley, 10 turns.
Into the Woods vJag -> vJag, 2 turns.
Something Non-aztec vJag -> vJag, 3 turns.
Frontierville vJag -> vJag, 15 turns.
Fake Fur Coat vJag -> vJag, 3 turns.
Cowtown vJag -> vJag, 4 turns.
South Cowtown vJag -> vJag, 4 turns.

[I] 9 540 AD

We kill a barb camp and get 25 gold.
vJag promotes to Elite from barb Horse.
And a second one.

Pillage around Pikal.

SettlerHH2 moves north.
SettlerTeayo moves into Maya lands near Pikal.


A vJav attacks us and dies (22 of 69, 27 retreats).
American settler pair out of Boston.

AzAz vJag -> vJag, 1 turn.
Several 'We love the Chieftain' days.
Oasisville vJag -> vJag, 3 turns.
Desert City vJag -> vJag, 3 turns.

[I] 10 550 AD

Battle of Kaminaljuyu (1), Round 2
vJag vs. vSpear, Jag wins (23 of 70, 27 retreats).
vJag vs. rJav, Jag dies (23 of 71, 27 retreats).
vJag vs. rJav 2/3, Jag retreats (23 of 72, 28 retreats).
vJag vs. rJav 2/3, Jag retreats (23 of 73, 29 retreats).
vJag vs. rJav 2/3, Jag wins (24 of 74, 29 retreats).

Good News
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/CBob02/550AD_KaminTrimmed.jpg


And Kaminaljuyu is destroyed.
We gain 2 workers and a slave.

Build Tikal-Me Pink with SettlerTeayo, 3 SW of Tikal, grows in 10, catapult in 20.

[IBT]
And the save is >>HERE<< (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58993/CBob02_AD_550.SAV).

Troop Concentrations
8 vJags 2 S of Liverpool.
13 Jags E-2SE of Hovd, heading to Tikal. Can end 1N of Tikal-Me Pink next turn and attack Pikal the following turn.
7 vJags on the hill S of Palenque, the city 2SE of Jungle Boogie.
All others are onesees and twosees.

Several catapults have been started but none will finish this next turnset.

Barbarians
In the north free roaming bands of barbarians will plague us the rest of the game.
We either need more cities up north, which is the long term solution or we garrison our cities fairly well.
The swamp road needs to have the tile SW of Tarzania roaded. One worker currently doing this, the others that just moved in need to help.


Worker Tasks
Irrigating the water north of Hills of Wheat. Need to carry that irrigation furhter south to By the Bay and Darhan, if not further.
Some workers are draining the swamp S and SE of Stop Sign City. This needs to complete so we can irrigate Stop Sign City and northwards.

Our core is pretty well developed. If we stay despotic, there is no need to develop it any further.
Outside our core (anything north of the Rome, Cowtown and South Cowtown line) we need only irrigate. That will let our cities grow, so we can pop rush as needed.


Suggested Plan

Tikal Area 550 AD
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/CBob02/550AD_Tikal.jpg


When the stack of 13 arrives at Tikal it will have about 7 other units nearby to help.
Seven or eight more will be availabe from Chicken-Itza.
And one or two from South Newcastle.
So we could easily attack Tikal with 30 units.


Palenque Area 550 AD
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/CBob02/550AD_Palenque.jpg


Eight units are ready to attack Palenque next turn with 5 units in Tarzania that can move to their tiles next turn and three more that are on the road.
I think we should wait until all those units show up, a total of 16 on a size 3 city.

After these two cities are gone, I think we just combine into one large stack and just begin to steamroll through the other cities and town, Mayan and American.

The Great Lighthouse completes in 19 turns. We might be able to finish off the Mayans and Yanks in that timeframe. We'll need boats to get to Englad.
We are building one galley in Hooka Huacan. Two are parked outside of it. But we will need more than three.

Nice work Cbob! With Ugly taken care of, we just have the Eastern front don't we. I have a feeling that Maya will collapse relatively quickly as well.