In a game such as FFH, with its incredibly detailed background, its countless options of gameplay and unpredictable nature, clashes between lore and actual games are unavoidable. Some are barely worth noting, but others have an ironic twist that make you stop and think. Or at least smirk as you go by... I have listed a few of my favourites below, please feel free to add any others you can think of.

Rosier the Fallen with the loyalty promotion - sure he could be loyal to his civ after the fall, but it still has an odd ring to it...

Corlindale, with his lore, given access to the fire spells.

A Grigori Dragon Slayer, member of the Cult of the Dragon.

Given his lore, Corlindale should start with fire spells.

Sphener and Basium duking it out.

Cassiel building the Mercurian gate (he can do this, right?).

A Calabim (or most any evil Civ) under Republic.

There's more out there, but these come to mind most readily.

I still don't understand why you feel incongruity with evil civs following a Republic. You are ascribing morality to something that is essentially amoral. sigh.

It's incongruous because people usually don't think that vampiric despots really care all that much who thier people want to rule them.

Vampires are often portrayed as masters of deception. What better deception than convincing the masses they are in control by placing your puppets as their representation? The real power never changes...

American Heritage New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition - Cite This Source
republic


A form of government in which power is explicitly vested in the people, who in turn exercise their power through elected representatives. Today, the terms republic and democracy are virtually interchangeable, but historically the two differed. Democracy implied direct rule by the people, all of whom were equal, whereas republic implied a system of government in which the will of the people was mediated by representatives, who might be wiser and better educated than the average person. In the early American republic, for example, the requirement that voters own property and the establishment of institutions such as the Electoral College were intended to cushion the government from the direct expression of the popular will.


[Chapter:] World Politics


The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition
Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved

Cassiel building the Mercurian gate (he can do this, right?).

I agree with this one wholeheardedly. From Cassiel's perspective Basium is no different from Hyborem.

Cassiel can build the gate - I have seen him do it a few times. Infact, the game which inspired my signature was a game which I lost because a few turns after I - playing as Keelyn - summoned the big red oaf, Cassiel followed up by summoning Basium. Maybe he was thinking that the two would duke it out and leave everyone else alone? Seems odd that he'd be willing to give up his city so that the "duking" it out would take place in his backyard... But alas, Falamar turned on me when I declined his offer to take a ride on his boat.

It's incongruous because people usually don't think that vampiric despots really care all that much who their people want to rule them.

Of course, that's -exactly- what a certain VP may well be counting on... :mischief:

Wait, lemme reread what I'm replying to... OK, the VP was counting on the perception that many people have that -their- chosen leader couldn't ever Be a vampiric despot, a different fallacy altogether.
Vampires might chose a style of government that -appears- to respond to the will of the masses in order to exploit one or more of the possible efficiencies it could have.

Actually Republic seems to be the ideal form of Government for the Vampires.

We should never forget that Republic is the government of a certain glass of society, rather than an individual (Monarchy, dictatorship), over the other glasses. In most cases republic were/are dominated by the upper class - Ancient Greek City States, Roman Republic, early British Republic, Midage German Hanse City States, early American NewEngland Republic, Modern Russian Federation just to name a few.
So republic is THE government for the Patrician Vampire Families of the Calabim.

I agree. Personally I see more incongruity with having the Kuriotates use Republic than the Calabim, bu there's always ways to imagine it so it doesn't conflict.

I can see it now:"Sure, he may be a blood sucking, canabalistic murderer... but he did say he would lower taxes..."

I assume the case for vampires with republic would be that only vampires are considered to be citizens... this seems a bit more like an oligarchy since vampires would have to be a minority in the society and while they could definatly call themselves a republic (china does) they would hardly be a legitimate one. In other words, unless the majority votes in public officials I don't see the vampires truly responding to this.

But ironic or not, the great thing about FfH is it allows you to do that. Create your own unlikely but possible reason for a republic vampire state. Maybe they are good vampires, who only eat criminals or foriegners. Or perhaps they have powerful control over peoples minds. Maybe even something as simple as a society that actually believes eating people is an acceptable thing for people to do. Still seeing Chand post that made me crack up.

Of course, that's -exactly- what a certain VP may well be counting on... Valin Phanuel?

Dick Cheney?

killing acheron with fireballs before damage types were introduced, and hurting acherons with fireballs collateral damage during patch B.

I just had falamar summon basium (the same round I summond hyborem I guess with the help of an great engineer) and switch to the ashen veil. It is just weird having a diplo modifier of +10 to someone who is at war with me while the modifier towards his partner is -1 but friendly

Playing as Hyborem and being able to build the mercurian gate

I don't think you can do this.
Hyborem can only be AV, and thus evil, and only neutrals and good civs can build the mercurian.

Look out evil! It's Hyborem to the rescue!:lol:

Definately quick game speed, eh?

Loki - you sure about that? I am pretty sure I remember summoning, and then controlling Basium when I played as the vampires - about 50 turns after I summoned Hyborem and converted the vampires to AV so that they would be on friendly terms with the big red dork.

huh.
Clearly i'm wrong, but i think it might be a bug.

Believe me.
I had the option to build the gate when i played as Hyborem.
It is possible that this was tue to a bug but none the less it was pretty interesting.

Hyborem can be saved. If he stops worshipping the veil he can build the gate. If Basium comes he won't declare war on him, Basium hates the Ashen Veil, not the infernals. Or more specifically Basium hates Agares, who the Veil worships. If Hyborem is redeemed Basium will leave him alone.

The AI will never do it (summon Basium with Hyborem) but I left it as an obscure option for human players. I figured someone would want to run a Basium/Hyborem team.

I can justify most combinations, the point of FfH is to allow them, and the civs and religions were picked specifically for their ability to be interchanged with each other. But I must admit, the Cult of the Dragon Dragon Slayer is pretty funny.

Hyborem can be saved. If he stops worshipping the veil he can build the gate. If Basium comes he won't declare war on him, Basium hates the Ashen Veil, not the infernals. Or more specifically Basium hates Agares, who the Veil worships. If Hyborem is redeemed Basium will leave him alone.

The AI will never do it (summon Basium with Hyborem) but I left it as an obscure option for human players. I figured someone would want to run a Basium/Hyborem team.

I can justify most combinations, the point of FfH is to allow them, and the civs and religions were picked specifically for their ability to be interchanged with each other. But I must admit, the Cult of the Dragon Dragon Slayer is pretty funny.

Well I'll be darned. Is that really an intended possibility? I suppose it does mean that the outcasts can actually group together although it still seems a bit weird considering that Basium's introduction says "We've come to fight the Infernal."

"We came to fight the Infernal, but We soon realized they are pretty decent fellows after all. Now, We fight the Amurites!"

Curse those mages!

Hehehe :)
But who is Hyborem anyway? He obviously isn't Agares himself or incarnation of evil, so I would hate to think he is just a minor Agares's henchman

I was under the impression he's Agares' right-hand man, in the same way that Cassiel was Dagda's and Basium was Arawn's. I might be way off, though.

I was under the impression he's Agares' right-hand man, in the same way that Cassiel was Dagda's and Basium was Arawn's. I might be way off, though.

You're exactly right, he's the archangel of entropy. Just as Sabathiel is Junil's (as well as the other ones you mentioned).

For most of the gods their archangel is the leader of their angels. But Agares doesn't have an oganized hierarchy. Instead he encourages his angels to compete with each other, and any hierarchy that does exist is pretty fluid. But when he needs something special done, Hyborem is usually the one he calls on.

here's one: using govannon to teach druids to cast death magic

I built the Mercurian Gate as Hyborem (with no state religion) in my first game with .20. However, the game promptly crashed and I haven't tried again. The game before that (in .16) I (Flouros) forced Basium to adopt the Veil as the condition for a peace treaty, and got Hyborem to follow the Runes. It seems odd to me that formerly good, Ashen Veil civs still speak out againts evil, and still hate death/entropy mana so much. My solution to that is often to give those mana types away to whoever hates them the most. Sabathiel usually ends up with both death and entropy. One game (after giving her several ritualists in an attempt to convert her) Ethne fought me (Hyborem) using only Veil units, but stuck to her Runes even when the Veil was the only religion in any of her cities (I got the Armegeddon counter to 100 that game).

here's one: using govannon to teach druids to cast death magic

death is merely the renewel of life into earth, so that life may begin anew...

Isn't Death in FfH more accurately described as Undeath?/Necromancy?

Yes. It is a violation of Arawnian death, which would be the continuation in the lifecycle to which eerr refers.

I can see it now:"Sure, he may be a blood sucking, canabalistic murderer... but he did say he would lower taxes..."

I assume the case for vampires with republic would be that only vampires are considered to be citizens... this seems a bit more like an oligarchy since vampires would have to be a minority in the society and while they could definatly call themselves a republic (china does) they would hardly be a legitimate one. In other words, unless the majority votes in public officials I don't see the vampires truly responding to this.

But ironic or not, the great thing about FfH is it allows you to do that. Create your own unlikely but possible reason for a republic vampire state. Maybe they are good vampires, who only eat criminals or foriegners. Or perhaps they have powerful control over peoples minds. Maybe even something as simple as a society that actually believes eating people is an acceptable thing for people to do. Still seeing Chand post that made me crack up.


again, you are confusing the concept of republic with democracy. These things are not the same (especially as you are talking about the Western Democracry, but not the original Attic Demokratia)

You are certainly aware that even in the New England States of America in the end of the 19th century there was no equality in treatment of all classes , even when all classes were allowed to vote. (in opposition to Europe were even in late 19th centuries even the Western European States allowed only male taxpayers to vote at all. If you were too poor and in general female you were simply excluded). Still we consider these states to be republics.

Obviously in a Vampire Republic the right to vote would be limited. But this does not mean that only Vampires will have to be considered citizen. More likely all male taxpayers (notice: this includes large chunks of underclass , too) and all Vampires (male and female) would be a good basis. Certainly in such a scenario the Vampires would only 'punish' (hunt) the classes who have no right to vote. This could be subclasses of underclass, but more likely be outcasts (if you have caste system established) or poor immigrants. But this is not different from the feudal scenario were the Vampires are snatching some young and unmarried (and without family) village girl from time to time and nobody really bothers.

So this republic scenario would be completely fine with the established upperclass (mostly belonging the Vampire Patricians themselves) and the upcoming middle class striving to become a Patrician and maybe to buy a glimpse of the eternal life with enough expenditure on the 'right' friends.
Nevertheless, as Orwell states out (1984), people go for revolutions not when they are suppressed but when they see an easy way to graps power.
So as long as the Calabim state is striving and under good governance nobody would even think about replacing the Vampires on top - I mean they do a good job after all and they are damn experienced in all matters of life not to mention their vast amount of knowledge. Who cares what they eat. Some people are vegetarians,some people are eating meat and some people are eating humans ..( but not all humans but just the worthless ones).

Just imagine a poshy fancy party where we all go hunting in the slums at midnight as the highlight .. One really good looking young aristocratic vampire lad is chasing a quite dirty but at least healthy slum girl. Eventually he catches her and gives her her first and final peek .. All his friends (Vampires and Non-Vampires alike) are cheering him and applauding. Later after the official investigation the police states out that she was a homeless and familyless ragpicker, not to mention a notorious thief and a prostitute, immoral by all means. The young lad was fined 50 gold for violating the Rules of Hunt Registration. His family is very unhappy about his ignorance to law. It was his 100th birthday and he was certainly in very jolly mood. Nevertheless the young lad is sorry and promises that next time he will register his party HUNT ..........

Even more likely .. some poor fellow is selling his life for a considerable amount of money (that goes to his family). In this way he declares himself a prey that can be hunted in strictly ruled out bloodsports (no collateral victims etc.). The whole procedure is documented and defined in two volumes of the Combined Public Law of Calabim. You need to study at least one semester to learn about all the details....
or .. or .. or
As long as there are strict rules that punish any Vampire who feasts from 'protected' classes this society would be damn good shape. (notice that in this scenario Alexis would have been sidelined by her family as she is simply notorious. She is now serving as a abbey matron in the Church of the Octopii. Her brother Flaurus is senator of the Prespur State. He will candidate for presidency next year as candidate for the 'United Calabim'-Party. This is the conservative more traditional party in opposition to the reformed 'New Born' Party which is currently ruling the state)

In any way Vampires are more human than we like to believe .. they simply represent our desire for omnipotence and eternal life .. very human concepts ..

(or to quote Quark in Star Trek - Deep Space Nine: "You Humans call us Ferengis greedy Barbarians. But if I look into human history I see slavery, concentration camps and atomic wars. Ferengy history has nothing of these astrocities. We are better than you!")

Why all this about Vamparic republics, I think that Clan of Embers..... or any barbarian civ which is a republic is the worst. Looking at Clan, a people who decided on the leader by him being the biggest and strongest, republic does not seem to go.

How about, you have the ability to treat people as bad as possabile with sacrifice the weak. To kill them in your rituals and religion..... but you cannot capture slaves?!?

Schoolarship with barbarians.

Scortched earth and Public healers.

Slavery and protect the meek.

Guarding of Nature and casting enthropy spells

Is that enough :-)

Why all this about Vamparic republics, I think that Clan of Embers..... or any barbarian civ which is a republic is the worst. Looking at Clan, a people who decided on the leader by him being the biggest and strongest, republic does not seem to go.

Perhaps the Council of Tough Guys votes on who among them is the Toughest, and shall be Ruler.

How about, you have the ability to treat people as bad as possabile with sacrifice the weak. To kill them in your rituals and religion..... but you cannot capture slaves?!?
Animal Husbandry: Everyone but the followers of the Overlords thinks slavery is wrong. You can sacrifice the weak, but that's letting them die rather than forcing them to live a miserable existence.

Schoolarship with barbarians.
We value knowledge, we're just really not good at getting it.

Scortched earth and Public healers.
OUR people are cared for. **** everyone else. BURN IT TO THE GROUND!

Slavery and protect the meek.
They may be slaves, but we like to give them good health care - makes them last longer.

Guarding of Nature and casting enthropy spells
Well, if you also have nature spells, you can wither the enemy's lands, making them easier to capture, and restore them once they're safely in your possession.

The idea being that it's sort of fun to imagine how these sorts of situations work. I had an Amurite army composed almost entirely of Wizards running Military Discipline rather than Scholarship. This doesn't mean my mages are learning swordplay, it means they're learning how to execute battle plans, and fire volleys of fireballs together.

Well I could swallow scorched earth and public healers-their point is destroying infrastructure, not killing populace, and besides they are caring for their own people, but not for others. And whats wrong with orc republic? They are race just like humans and elves, they can be enlightened as well. If fact I would call you a racist!!! :p
For vampire republic, I dont know, you could justify it but its effects couln't be the same as Malakim or Elohim republic, I mean in GP,culture and happiness bonus.

If fact I would call you a racist!!!

Orks, elfs, dwarfs are not a sub-rase of human. They are different species so not a racist but specieist ;) [or whatever you spell it]

Slavery and protect the meek.Naw, we only enslave the proud aristocrats...

What's ironic is that Kael said he tried to not be so symmetrical, yet if you look at the Armageddon article in the wiki there is a bit of symmetry with the Order and Ashen Veil.

Confessor worshiping Order and Ashen Veil (Elohim only)

Building the Infernal Grimoire and getting orders from heaven and founding the order, especially as infernals

How about the Grigori building the Alter of Luonnotar and receiving a Great Prophet?

Republic is particularly appropriate for vampires if they've bitten or their spawn have bitten the current populace. Don't masters exert a certain level of control over their converts in that structure? So he goes, "Vote for me" and they go "yes master?". So whoever's bitten the most wins the election?

I still don't understand why you feel incongruity with evil civs following a Republic. You are ascribing morality to something that is essentially amoral. sigh.

In the middle ages, "democracy" was a synonym for "demagogy".

- Giant spider with the Orthus Axe (has been reported somewhere).
- Vampiric elephant (Deadly ivory. Horrible!)
- Blessed worker defending killed Rosier (total mobilization).
- National heroes with hidden nationality. (Well, Black Wind itself is a natural paradox).

- Giant spider with the Orthus Axe (has been reported somewhere)

I got a lion iwth the ax. He attacked Ortus who had barely any health. It was awesome.

Vampiric elephant is great. Dem is some big-a§§ fangs, fo' sho'!

:lol: If he goes for your neck he is likely to decapitate you!

Republic is particularly appropriate for vampires if they've bitten or their spawn have bitten the current populace. Don't masters exert a certain level of control over their converts in that structure? So he goes, "Vote for me" and they go "yes master?". So whoever's bitten the most wins the election?

Not exactly sure how Ffh vampirism works but it seems that they just die, as feeding/feasting includes a lot of victims and they would eventually end up having everyone a vampire. The relatively few vampires form the aristocracy which is actually the "right" vampire gov, not that there's any problem with republic, they make them bloodpets un-citizens like the slaves were in the US despite the alleged equality of all humans.
Ancient and powerful, the rulers of the Calabim posses a dark secret. Through fell ritual their lives can be prolonged at the expense of others, and by this act Alexis and Flauros have created a decadent vampiric aristocracy. Their battlefield success comes at a price they are only too happy to pay—the blood of their human thralls, kept in miserable conditions to serve as little more than cattle.

Other ironic thing:
Like Hyborem and Basium as a team, buthttp://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/116386/weird.jpg
Jonas contributed 70 to AC, founded AV, summoned Hyborem, built the Prophecy of Ragnarok, Stigmata on the unborn Rosier the fallen and Mardero, and destroyed half of the civs in the world, and is a teammate of Basium despite having some +25 towards Hyborem...
Well, at least he knows what his enemies are up to...

Cassiel and god king.

Good one:lol:

Cassiel is a former archangel so it's actually believable that he's worshipped.
Cassiel's creed of self-reliance and mortal empowerment yields more than philosophy discussions. His warriors often come to battle fearless, and as dedicated to their nation as most crusaders are to their god.

Charadon the barbaric wolf-man replies to diplomatic deals with "Excellent! I'm quite pleased. Let's sit down and have a jolly cup of tea, shall we?".

:p
Another one:
Hyborem proposes things with: "The peace-loving nation of infernals..."

Cassiel is a former archangel so it's actually believable that he's worshipped.

Well read about the grigori medics, and how Cassiel would not set himself up as a god by granting healing magic. Of course that would be very stupid of him, because god king is way powerful.

Playing a game with random leaders, with 7 ladies and 1 man.
The 7 ladies end up being all at war against each other!!
The man is at peace with all of them, good, neutral or Evil.

Ah!!! Falamar ... "you are charming" they all say!!!"

Not sure it is funny, but when you play Falamar and you are a man, you feel good.

(by the way, thank you to the one in the team who though about this modifier)

In the middle ages, "democracy" was a synonym for "demagogy".

And it's not like that today :lol:

Basium: "Watch out for our worst enemy, Faeryl Viconia. They can't be trusted."

Worst enemy? Are you sure you're not forgetting someone?

A freak with both Heavy and Light promotion.

A freak with both Heavy and Light promotion.

That is a bit strange. I tend to refer to them as "fat midgets." Or "Cartmans." :p

And it's not like that today :lol:

Lol its liek the ffh forum. The pretensions of democracy for public forum, while the vampires manipulate everything from private forum. The calabim and their republic.

Centaurs in big cities.

Arthendain & Mary Morbus, or Gilden Silveric and Baron Duin Halfmorn in the same civilisation.

Varn Gosam building Baron

I did that in my last game.


The Sheaim converting to the Order.

I did that in my last game.


The Sheaim converting to the Order.

I have even better one: infernals converting to the Order, and upgrading sects of flies to paladins!

I am not so well versed in FFH lore but I suppose this is nice:

The Doviello converting to Ashen Vale, building Rosier the Fallen, and then having him single-handedly wipe out every other evil civ in the world (starting with the Sheaim) just to keep the AC down.

The goody Elohim setting up a Calabim (or other normally evil) leader to take charge of their overseas colonies...

Faeryl Viconia converting to Empyrean and being Varn's best friend

Perpentach converting to Order and being best Varns friend, and when i playing as Hippus/Empyrean, blitz conquested huge land of Varn who was my neighbour, Perpentach was lone Order civ on map, asking repeatedly to convert to Order (Huge Creation map, 19 civs)

Faeryl Viconia converting to Empyrean and being Varn's best friend

She's just pretending to

She's just pretending to

:p actually she did just that. After a while she converted to RoK:(

War elephants with blur (immune to 1st strikes)...

Sheaim with The Order. I actually do that. Build the Prophacy of Ragnorok, convert to the order, build planar gates in every city, and push the AC counter all the way. You're "GOOD", which means your lands don't burn up. Now conquer the world with planar gate units.

Infirmaries and Sacrifice the Weak. Though a healthy sacrifice is probably better than one who is about to die anyway.

Empyrean and Slavery. After careful meditation we have concluded that slavery is good for some people, so we use it nevermind the economic penalty. (Slavery blows)

Runes of Kilmorph and Sheaim: "Long have the mountains stood, longer still the world beneath. But things are about to change."

I have even better one: infernals converting to the Order, and upgrading sects of flies to paladins!

The Infernals cannot adopt the Order.

Hyborem can't adopt the order. Hyborem has a -100 weighting towards al religions but AV, for which his weighting is +100, and you cannot adopt any religion for which the weighting is -100 as the game doesn't recognize them as present in any of your cities. (I tend to get rid of the weighting for OO and CoE, so a human can be more subtly evil if he likes.) If you somehow manage to play an unrestricted leaders game with a different leader of the Infernal civ (which would involve some modding which would be just as hard as just letting him adopt it; this was is possible in FF now though) then you could adopt The Order right after it spreads to your cities, but the religion would still be removed.

Clan of Embers and OO... Fire vs Water?

Civs that don't even have an access to the sea converting to the Octopus Overlords : "We don't actually know what an octopus is, but the name was catchy".

Guybrush Threepwood becoming a crazed demon after exploring a dungeon.

Arendel Phaedra sitting down for a nice game of Somnium with... Hyborem.

A rather unexpected "Your Chalid Astrakein has been caught torturing war prisoners" event.

The Sheaim rejoicing because of penguins on their coast...

"We don't actually know what an octopus is, but the name was catchy".

Octopus is the Siamese twins cat.

A rather unexpected "Your Chalid Astrakein has been caught torturing war prisoners" event.It's even better when it's Corlindale :P

I quite like the event that lets you stop a war becuase of mercy to the wounded. I once got it after just sacking a town and killing Basium with Hyborem :crazyeye:
Also:
Freak with strong and weak promotion
Freak with heavy and light promotion
Freak with immunity to disease and plague
Perpentach adopts sanity :)