Parameters:
Patch: 1.22 C3C
Level: Emperor
Variant: Always War (No initial trading)
Civilization: Random - We got the Mayans
Map Type: 250x250 Completely Random
Barbarians: Random
Rivals: 30
AI Aggression: Normal
Victory Condition: Any
Culturally linked starts: OFF
Re-spawn: Off
Preserve Random Seed: On
Cultural Conversion: On

We must immediately declare war (no trading first) upon contact, but can see if we are ahead or behind, look at graphs, etc.

-----------------------------------------------------------

I played 1750 BC to make sure the game was viable. I also chose 60% continents as I kept getting archipelagos:

We have only a single contact - the Japanese so far. There is a lot of land though so this isn't suprising. We will meet more.

We didn't have a food bonus other than being the Argicultural for our capitol, but have a +5 food town settled. We have a Granary and Barracks there.

No initial rush from Japan yet. We have started building Jav's. I suspect our GA will be soon.

Here is a picture:

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a251/Greebley/GR17_AD1750.jpg

Players will again get 5 days to play especially in the latter part of the game. Pls post an "I got it" in 24 so we know someone is playing (or if you are up next you can mention when you next can play and are ready).

Roster:
Greebley
NP
M60A3TTS
vmxa
ThERat
markh

NP - You are up.

Slaves are us, been a long time since I was able to use that ability. Are we allowed to cultivate a barb camp for slave fishing?

I don't see why not. If we want to put resources toward that it is part of the game.

I've got it.

Lurking 'gain

1500 BC, end of turn (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/33960/GR17_BC1500.SAV)

1750 (0): I switch Copan to a granary, due in six turns. I don't think we can fill territory quickly enough with just an eight-turn settler pump in the capital.


1700 (2): We can see six Japanese warriors. I think I'll withdraw our settler rather than founding a city right where the Japanese are advancing.


1675 (3): Chicken Pizza JT --> JT.


1650 (4): We spear a Japanese warrior and enter our Golden Age--unfortunate, but with this many Japanese units around there's no way to avoid JT victories (1-0).

We lose a warrior covering a redlined JT (1-1).


1625 (5): We implale two Japanese warriors next to Copan, gaining a slave (3-1).

Copan granary --> walls.


1600 (6): A JT fails against a regular warrior in clear terrain (3-2), which allows the warrior to pillage in the interturn.

We found Tikal in a safe spot west of the capital, at the mouth of the river.

BW --> IW.

Chicken Pizza JT --> JT.


1575 (7): We skewer a Japanese warrior around Copan, and gain a second slave (4-2).

Palenque barracks --> JT.


1550 (8): We catch the three remaining Japanese warriors stacked in clear terrain, and spit them all, gaining a third slave (7-2).

Copan walls --> settler.


1525 (9): Chicken Pizza settler --> JT.


1500 (10): Not much.

Seven JT victories this round produced three slaves.

One elite victory this round didn't generate a GL.

We should found our next two cities at 1 and 2 on the screenshot, though we can move 2 if it turns out to have bad sea tiles.

We have two elite JT, and so some hope of a GL when the Japanese return.

During this lull we should produce nothing but settlers in Copan, and a mix of JT and settlers in Chicken Pizza. It's really the only way to benefit from a GA this early.

A quiet moment:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/33960/GR17-1500AD.JPG

We can probably pop the hut. With two good Jt's any barbs are just going to help us and we could gain something useful.

Nice to get the slaves here so we can road up sooner.

Growth seems a good idea to me too. Our GA will allow us to keep building the Jav in the capitol and get us Barracks more quickly. Japan has used up their initial guys and shouldn't send much right away.

Don't leave cities unprotected though unless they are surrounded by other cities. I would settle to minimize the front lines so we have enough to defend all our cities.

Also keep building roads connecting cities. If we have an unconnected city then connecting it is more important than improvements - If a jav in another city or two can be moved in if there is an attack - it effectively defends every city with 2 or 3 time more units than without the roads. With the slaves we can hopefully do both (or build more workers if needed).

Roster:

Greebley
NP - Just Played
M60A3TTS - Up
vmxa - On Deck
ThERat
markh

OK, I got it.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/43630/GR17_1250BC.JPG

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/43630/GR17_1250_BC.SAV

Preturn- Looks ok.

1475BC (Turn 1) Move settler north.

IBT- zzzzz

1450BC (Turn 2) Settler north. Pop hut and get CB.

IBT- Vikes complete the Colossus

1425BC (Turn 3) Yaxchilan founded.

IBT- Quiet

1400BC (Turn 4) Moving another settler southwest.

IBT- Quiet again

1375BC (Turn 5) Move settler into position

IBT- No activity

1350BC (Turn 6) Bonampak founded

IBT- Same as before

1325BC (Turn 7) Another settler on the move, this time west.

IBT- No sign of activity

1300BC (Turn 8) Settler still moving.

IBT- Still nothing

1275BC (Turn 9) Quiet

IBT- Japanese want peace. I haven’t seen anybody yet.

1250BC (Turn 10) Still nada.

Post turn- Two settlers just about in place. Doing some chopping near Bonampak. Should be able to put two more towns down in the next turn or two, but you may want to bring up another JT for settler 2 just in case you run into bad guys. On going after IW, we’ll need to push south towards the hills. Doesn’t look promising for iron in the northeast.

Just going by the screenshot, that looks fine, except...are you thinking of Yaxchilan as a four-turn worker pump? I can't think why else we'd build a granary there.

Setting up camp in the lurker's gallery. :)

What a different game this is from the last two! Plenty of water and time to establish yourselves before the big wars begin. It looks like fun.

Just going by the screenshot, that looks fine, except...are you thinking of Yaxchilan as a four-turn worker pump? I can't think why else we'd build a granary there.

It can be changed as needed. I'm thinking the faster towns grow, the better. We've got military going everywhere else.

I got it and will play tomorrow. Nice got a tech from the hut.

Following this one. Too bad about GR16.

May luck smile on you guys!

The save here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/42522/GR17_1000BC.SAV

PRE:
I am not sure what the best move is for the granary. In the main we will not be out of despotism for a long time and will not be sending any water there for sometime, so I do not see the granary as being a necessity now and switch to a rax.

1225BC:
I start a settler in copan after some consideration for a temple. The reason I think of a temple is this is our likely pre for the GL. I chose to pop one more settler and then go with the temple so it can be done beofre we get to size 7, I hope.

Not seeing a great spot for the warrior/settler as we will either be too close or leave a dead tile in the core. I think Palenque is too close to the capitol for a 250/250 and that is the cause of the potential dead spot.

I moved the lone settler to the coast to gain the whale and give an extra tile to be used.

We do not need to be 3x for that location.

I moved the warrior/settler to be smack in the midst of all those BG's. It can be exposed, if we have civs nearby, but I am hoping not.

1200BC:
Found Quiriqua, can we rename this towns to anything easy to say and type? I name it Town0007.
Found Calakmul.

1175BC:
Lux 30

1150BC:
Lux stays as we will come out of GA during the IBT and will riot without it.
Settler out and start a temple.

1125BC:
Chicken starts a worker as we are very much needing more and it is size 6 anyway.
Start a spear in Yax.

1100BC:
Found Lazapa and start a Rax. I wish we could have had the river in front of us, but cannot be done.
Set research to 30.

1075BC:
Start spear in Bonampak. I am not sure what the team plan is on spears. I figure it is that jt's have 2 defense and 2 attack and make more sense. I am not opposed to that, but spears can be pikes and jt's are going to be nothing, except jt's.

Plus they are cheaper to make and let them take the attackers on and die instead, so I am making a few.

I started on alpha, rather than wheel as horses are not very useful in this sort of game as you have little money for upgrades anyway and no lock on having horses anyway.

I send out 3 javs to see if they can spot some iron.

Research is only 40% or we go -3gpt with 28 in the kitty. That will not cover it.

1050BC:
2 archers show up.
jt kills one and is yellow (1-0).

IBT:
Nip archer attacks the wounded jt and dies and we go elite and get a slave, sweet (2-0).
See 3 archers and IRON.

1025BC:
Had to raise lux to 40.

1000BC:
I did not do anything on this turn, will stop set here to get on the even years.

The iron will need a colony as nothing but mountains near it. Two tiles from Lazapa. So a mountain road and then a colony and some defenders.
Temple comes online next turn, so may be abel to lower lux.

save (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53368/GR17_750BC.SAV)

Pre-Turn
MM a little, we can reduce lux to 30%
we don't need a colony as we have iron within our borders

IT Japanese archer comes into view

1.975BC
Copan won't produce settlers as it will be the GL city
reduce lux to 20%

2.950BC
start to road the iron
2 archers now near, move out settler with 2 units covering

3. 925BC
5 archers now around and able to attack
defeat 1 and turn into slave

IT lose 1 JT, but turn another archer into slave

4.900BC
found Kaminalwhat?
defeat 3 archers and get 1 slave

5. 875BC
Copan got a JT and starts palace now due in 38 turns

6.850BC
SoZ built by byz and the wonder cascade continues as it sems
Copan grows to 8, employ 2 scientists for the time being

7.825BC
raise lux back to 30% as the capital grows as well

8.800BC
iron is online now
exploring the surrounding for settlements, we run into India
declare on them

9.775BC
we have 2 settlers now to claim more land

10.750BC
move settlers out, can claim land soon
we have our first sword

situation:
alphabet is done next turn, we should then estimate our prebuild
with expansion, the palace shields should go up of course
we can reduce lux to 20% and employ more scientists, this will slow the prebuild and speed up research

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53368/gr17750.jpg

Man that is a lot of moutnains and so close.

Roster

Greebley - On Deck
NP
M60A3TTS
vmxa
ThERat - Just Played
markh - Up

Damn! Lots of mountains! Guess you guys are safe...I think.

Good luck though, with the Mayans, hopefully it'll be somewhat easier. :)

I think the mountains could be a big help at the start. It will allow us to aggressively expand to the northeast while the mountins and hills provide a natural barrier of sorts.

And what if there is not much land to expand to in that direction?

We don't need a ton. We should be able to get at least 6 in that direction just based on what is readily available.

I got it. I will play tomorrow.

Remember that a town build adjacent to a mountain can be a bit more vulnerable if the AI can occupy that mountain square - we lose the ability to attack the AI. I would only settle adjacent if we have a spare JT (or two) in the town that can occupy it. Otherwise once swords come they get a defense of 4 on the mountain and an attack of 3 and thus have an advantage.

I see we have a palace build going on. I would slow it down (less shields) if writing is going to take longer than 15 turns. I am unsure we can get to the number of towns (19? I think) we need to get more shields for the palace, so we will likely need Lit in the '29' turns for the palace to complete.

IBT : alpha -> writing in 28 at best possible rate
Calakmul : rax -> settler

Slow down the palace build by hiring two scientists. Writing drops to 25 turns and the palace to 49 turns

1) 730BC : found Piedras Negras

reduce lux to 20% and hire a scientist in Chicken Pizza ???. Science up to 50% writing drops to 18 turns. Remicromanage Copan to palace in 31 turns

IBT : a Jap warrior and archer head for Lazapa, still 2 turns away from attacking

Yaxchilan : settler -> jt

Vikes complete The Great Lighthouse in Trondheim

2) 710BC : we can raise science to 60% -> writing in 16 now

IBT : Tikal : spear -> jt

3) 690BC : found Uaxactun

IBT : the jap warrior suicides on the defenses at Lazapa

Chicken Pizza : sword -> sword
Palenque : jt -> settler
Kaminalwhat : walls -> rax

4) 670BC : lose a jt on the Jap archer at Lazapa
jt kills that archer and gets us another slave

We have dyes in South of Kaminalwhat?

IBT : Bonampak : jt -> settler
Town0007 : spear -> sword

5) 650BC : just moving units

IBT : a new Jap archer and spear appear as well as several Indian warriors

Lazapa : jt -> jt

6) 630BC : kill an Indian warrior in the hills near Japanese territory
found Cuello

IBT : Chicken Pizza : sword -> sword

7) 610Bc : enslave an Indian warrior at Piedras Negras
sword loses to second Indian warrior at Piedras Negras on grass land :cry:
lose a sword and a jt on a spear and archer at Lazapa

IBT : a Jap archer dies attacking Lazapa

8) 590BC : nothing

IBT : Jap archer dies attacking Lapaza
Palenque : settler -> jt
Tikal : jt -> jt

9) 570BC : change Lapaza to walls
jt kills that swordsmankilling Indian warrior at Piedras Negras

IBT : Chicken Pizza : sword -> sword

10) nothing

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/47099/GR17_550BC.SAV

lurker's comment: Wow, your very own Great Wall of Mountains! Defense should be very interesting :)

I got it.

Roster:
Greebley - Up
NP - On Deck
M60A3TTS
vmxa
ThERat
markh - Just Played

Your defense will be slowly creeping if you go through the mountain range. Catapults bombard the first mountain. Take it and build road (possibly a temporary fortress, at least an outpost). Repeat.

BTW, you guys are planning to use outposts, right? They're extremely helpful for such maps.

Finally, consider a naval landing, pretending that you're on an island of sorts.

Preturn: Kill an Archer with a Sword.

IBT: A few Japanese Archers and Indian warriors.

530 BC: Jav fails to kill a Warrior. Jav kills the other Warrior. Decide not to attack Archers in the mountains.
I am going to send a settler toward the dye.

IBT: Lose a Spear to an Archer.

510 BC: Kill an Archer with a Sword.

IBT:

490 BC: Kill the 1 HP Warrior.
Grab both mountains near Lazapa

470 BC: Quiet

IBT: Spear wandering in our lands - sending a sword.

450 BC: Found Tulum

IBT: Some units showing up - more Archers for the most part.

430 BC: Barely kill the Spear.

IBT: Indians retreat.
Japanese Archers near our borders.

410 BC: MM for Science
Forbidden Palace started.

390 BC: Kill 2 Archers and lose one Javalin.

IBT: Kill an Archer on defense and get a slave.
Built a Curragh. I will try to avoid any city of a new civ but feel we should start finding the borders or our lands.

370 BC: Kill an Indian Warrior and Archer. Kill a Japanese Archer. No enemies in sight.

IBT: India is building Hanging Gardens - they have Monarchy already.

350 BC:

Notes:
Lit and Palace both in 8 turns. However we are sacrificing shields and growth for this - we have about 5 extra scientists.

Everything is quiet at the moment. So far the AI hasn't thrown much at us.

Some Javs are keeping Japan away from the elephants.

Two resources on our continent mean that it is likely there are civs we haven't met yet on our landmass. 1/4 the resources means about 1/4 of 30 civs which is 7-8 civs on average sharing out land.

Started the FP in a town with several BG nearby. Once we get Lit we could use more workers.

I think we will have outposts at some point - right now the workers are too valuable.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a251/Greebley/GR17_BC350.jpg

The Save (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/14765/GR17_350BC.SAV)

"Built a Curragh. I will try to avoid any city of a new civ but feel we should start finding the borders or our lands."

Never seen this work out, good luck. It always leads to more civs to fight.

Tribute we cannot spend worker on outpost for a very long time. It may not be needed on those moutains anyway. We will have towns on the other side eventually and be able to control access.

I've got it.

Tribute we cannot spend worker on outpost for a very long time. It may not be needed on those moutains anyway. We will have towns on the other side eventually and be able to control access.

Not even a slave? You've captured at least one by now.

It's the eventually part that gets me. And wouldn't it be sad if Spain were on your continent, and they survived to get Conquistadors? Wah! 'Mountain barrier==null' returns 'true'! We couldn't protect our workers because those silly Conquistadors were hiding behind the mountain range and used the AI skill of 'sight' to find our workers! Well, whatever. If you can get those towns and defend them well, that's better than outposts (range 4 vision), of course.

I've played four turns, which have been uneventful except that the Indians have just (270 BC) built the Great Library--not a disaster, since at least it's close to us. So I intend to use the accumulated shields in Copan for the Forbidden Palace, even though it would be right next to the capital. Would anyone object to this?

I don't think that's an issue the FP location isn't all that important in C3C

and of course, now we need to capture the GL town

NP go for it, no reason not.

Tribute "Not even a slave? You've captured at least one by now."

We have many from JT's. I have not seen the save in a bit, but we have sight to see most of the area that is near us. We do not have that many towns or that much space to defend right now, so there is a limit as to where they can show up.

"It's the eventually part that gets me. And wouldn't it be sad if Spain were on your continent, and they survived to get Conquistadors? Wah! 'Mountain barrier==null' returns 'true'! We couldn't protect our workers because those silly Conquistadors were hiding behind the mountain range and used the AI skill of 'sight' to find our workers! Well, whatever. If you can get those towns and defend them well, that's better than outposts (range 4 vision), of course."

We always lose some workers to cavs coming out of nowhere, these maps are too large to prevent it 100% and still make progress.

Conquistadors are not my big concern, I am more concerned with WE and we know that India is here. Conquistadors are easy to kill, WE are not. Especially if we are behind in tech and we surely will be for time.

This range is in our backyard and if we cannot control it, we are toast, unless there is very little land on the other side.

If it gets to the point that units are coming in from a known direction, you can then consider placing an outpost strategically. To just expose all the range at this point would take a lot of workers.

One or two will not be all that useful, until you have a reason to put one in a certain location.

Switching to FP sounds right to me too.

I think we should concentrate on India with them having the GLib. The mountains are thin in the north so we can continue to push in that direction. The biggest downside is that it makes our front longer, but this is worthwhile to get the GLib.


I tend to build outpost early myself, but not when we don't have enough workers to road to each town and keep most core towns working improved squares. Right now we are very short on them.

One problem with outposts is they often require a guard or the AI overruns them. They are therefore better along a road so that we can get a unit there easily if needed.

What we really need is an army or two. We were getting a few Elite victories on my turn so hopefully we will get one before too much longer.

150 BC, end of turn (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/33960/GR17_150BC.SAV)

350 (0): I declare war on Carthage, as we're obliged to do. One of their warriors is wandering around in the Kagoshima area.


330 (1): One of our isolated JT on a mountain defeats the attack of a barb warrior, producing a slave we won't be able to get home for quite a while :lol: (1-0).

The Indians complete the Mausoleum.


310 (2): Waxy Tongue walls --> barracks.


290 (3): Outside Waxy Tongue we impale a Japanese archer, gaining a slave (2-0).

Outside Tulum we strike down three Indian archers, gaining a slave (5-0).

We repel an Indian archer attacking Tulum, and gain another slave (6-0).

The Indians could have put nine units next to Coba with a good chance of taking it next turn, but instead they fall back. :smoke:

Piedras Negras barracks --> swordsman.


270 (4): We cut down an Indian archer/warrior team next to Tulum (8-0).

The Indians complete the Great Library in Delhi. At least it's close to us.


250 (5): We get dyes hooked up.

Around Coba we slay two Indian archers, gaining a slave (10-0).

Near Waxy Tongue we dispose of two Japanese archers and a spearman, losing a swordsman (13-1).

Copan FORBIDDEN PALACE --> library (later HE), at a waste of 85 shields.

Dyland walls (lumberjacked) --> barracks.


230 (6): Coba walls --> barracks.

We're warned of a massive barb uprising near Lazapa, so our neighbours are probably in the MA.


210 (7): We found Uxmal on the river south of Copan.

A barb horseman perishes attacking one of our JT on a mountain (14-1).


190 (8): We crush an Indian stack of five--two archers and three warriors--next to Tulum (19-1). We claim another two slaves.

Next to Waxy Tongue we account for four Japanese archers, taking yet another slave (23-1).

Literature --> Mathematics, due in eleven turns. We need cats before the Numidians show up.

Tulum walls --> barracks.


170 (9): Around Waxy Tongue we slay another two Japanese archers and generate the GL Blue-Quetzal-Macaw (25-1), who immediately forms a sword army.

We slice and dice an Indian spearman outside Piedras Negras (26-1).


150 (10): We pick off a Japanese spearman outside Lazapa (27-1).

Our army tramples an Indian archer, and we’re able to start the HE in Copan (28-1).

Fifteen JT victories this round produced eight slaves.

Nine elite victories this round generated one Great Leader.

We can attack Kolhapur with a substantial stack on the third turn of the next round, though our force will be short on swordsmen apart from those in our army. Alternatively, we could wait another three turns or so and attack with four or five independent swordsmen in the SoD.

I've left two workers with their movement, so that the next player can decide whether he wants to wait a turn and then use them tactically to link our road network to Kolhapur's (my preference), or just return them immediately to ordinary duty.

The barb horsemen are about to hit our southwestern cities, but we have plenty of units in the area and it should just mean more slaves for us, except that the situation at Dyland is delicate.

We're building a library in Calakmul to use the shields accumulated when we thought we'd put the FP there. We need a cultural expansion in that area, so it works out well.

I never saw a Carthaginian unit this round, after the warrior which required us to declare war.

Now here's a specialized question: can the attack of an elite JT produce both a slave and a Great Leader, or are they alternatives? :D

The brewing storm:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/33960/GR17-150BC.JPG

sweet, an army...

we got to be fast to take out India, before they get the horror phants

where is the GL? which city?

In Delhi, which we haven't located.

ok, I got it.

Looks good. I would have a settler or two so we can link up with the Indian towns. We can probably keep the smaller ones if we can send Javs to hold the towns and we can build a town between Colba and Kholapur.

I don't think India has iron yet which will make it easier.

Roster:
Greebley
NP - Just Played
M60A3TTS - Up
vmxa - On Deck
ThERat
markh

I would have a settler or two so we can link up with the Indian towns.

Yes; I kept building settlers, and one is about to complete in the capital.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/43630/Our_empire.JPG

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/43630/GR17_50_AD.SAV

Preturn: Looks fine.

IBT: 5 Barb horses die, and our forted JT in the mountains generates 3 slaves before they all get killed by another horse.

Turn 1 (130BC) Keep the army in place and bring up the JTs.

IBT: Barbs lose a horse, but pretty much leave us alone. They seem more interested in Japan.

Turn 2 (110BC) Get our first look at Kohlapur. Spear defending.

IBT: Lose a vet spear and sword forted in the hills, and only kill 3 barb horses.

Turn 3 (90BC) Bring up the JTs to Kohlapur for attack next turn.

IBT: Indian galley sails into view. Carthage moving some warriors towards us.

Turn 4 (70BC) At Kolhapur, army kills spear and elite JT kills reg spear and we have the town along with 3 workers. JT kills a red barb horse.

IBT: Barb horse dies giving us a slave.

Turn 5 (50BC) Watch as our army almost dies trying to kill a reg Indian spear in the woods. Ends up with 2hp left. I get it out in case of a flip. Kill another archer and get a slave.

IBT- Lose our curragh to what else? A barb galley. That’s all our losses so far for this set-from barbs. Three Indian archers die attacking Kolhapur. One slave from that.

Turn 6 (30BC) Trade the Japs a sword for their spear at Lazapa. Fryingpan founded in the east. Trade India an elite JT for reg archer

IBT- Reg archer kills a vet JT forted in Kolhapur. RNG ain’t doing us any favors.

Turn 7 (10BC) Kill a pair of Indian spears.

IBT- Collect a slave from 4 barb horse suicides against a forted JT in the hills.

Turn 8 (10AD) Sword and JT disperse a barb camp. Kill another Indian archer at Kolhapur.

IBT- Barb horses net two new slaves.

Turn 9 (30AD) Crud. We get the too many city messages when trying to settle. :( Looking over the city placement, I have to agree that the spacing in a couple cases isn’t good. Building two towns two tiles from one another shouldn’t be happening regardless of whether there’s a river or a resource at issue. For my part, I had too many settlers going, we now have 6 we can’t use right away.

IBT- India amphib an archer by a JT at Calakmul.

Turn 10 (50AD) Math in, wheel in 5. Fire up some cat builds. Army kills two spears and Bengal is captured. Bag a couple more slaves. Three Indian archers killed at the cost of a JT. The slave market has been pretty good this round although reg archers seem to doing ok against our JTs. And done.

May want to turn off science after the wheel comes in, anticipating that we will end up with the Glib. At least figure out where the horses are so we can upgrade some to knights. We are 8 units under the limit, so with the extra settlers we may want to raze and replace.

It may just be me, but despite a pretty weak GA, this doesn’t seem challenging when the AI is frozen with city builds. We will just do what we did before, eventually crushing them with cities and being agricultural makes it even more one-sided. The Egypt AW game was a lot more challenging, although we are naturally in the early stages of this one. Anyway, don’t forget to try and build a city each turn. 3 tiles SE of Kaminalwhat? there is a settler ready to plant.

That sounds good. :goodjob: I'm not concerned that we might have too many settlers, since we'll need plenty for razing and replacing. Judging by the city names, we may still be many towns away from the GLib in Delhi, and it won't be practical to keep all of them.


It may just be me, but despite a pretty weak GA, this doesn’t seem challenging when the AI is frozen with city builds.

Well, when the city limit is a factor it makes the game even more front-loaded than it already is, which can help us or hurt us. It made a merely bad position in GR14 hopeless, for example. I agree that once we've got a decent core established the city limit makes our task easier, since we know how to adjust to it and the AI doesn't.

That is why I moved the settler in my set, it was too close for a map that will not be able to fill. It make sense in a std map where we can expect to have to do a fair amount of fighting in the area, but the distances are too great on these maps.

We can expect to fan out enough to keep the early towns out of any confrontation.

I got it. Watching hoops now, will try to get it done before going to work tomorrow.

I guess 60% water was a mistake - the city limit gets hit early. I was hoping it would be later. Agree 70% water worked out much better. Oh well.

Not sure if the GA was weak - sometimes an early GA accelerates your start and allows for a stronger position. You don't get science quickly or anything and don't have good infrastructure - but you make up for it with more cities and more units.

Its been tough getting a good random start. We tended to get Archipelago every time.

GL on the fight vs India, vxma. Maybe you can find Delhi.

Roster:
Greebley
NP
M60A3TTS - Just Played
vmxa - Up
ThERat - On Deck
markh

Just to let you know I made a leader and an army on the PRE. Yahoo.

I guess 60% water was a mistake - the city limit gets hit early. I was hoping it would be later. Agree 70% water worked out much better. Oh well.

Not sure if the GA was weak - sometimes an early GA accelerates your start and allows for a stronger position. You don't get science quickly or anything and don't have good infrastructure - but you make up for it with more cities and more units.

Its been tough getting a good random start. We tended to get Archipelago every time.



Yeah I do not envy you trying to get a good start and an interesting game. To me, I just want to have to entertainment. You are pretty much stuck with a early GA using Mayan in an AW.

I think we could use it, given the fact that we need to take down India quick or face WE.

Not sure if the GA was weak - sometimes an early GA accelerates your start and allows for a stronger position. You don't get science quickly or anything and don't have good infrastructure - but you make up for it with more cities and more units.

Yes, the conventional wisdom about avoiding a despotic GA grossly oversimplifies the question. The long-term multiplier effect of doing even 20% better than normal before 1000 BC is enormous.

Vmxa, great news. :thumbsup:

Here is the save:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/42522/GR17_AD0150.SAV

Pre:
Sword kills archer (1-0).
Sword kills 5/5 spear (2-0).
Now here is a pre for yeah. 4/5 jt kill archer and get a slave and a leader.
Form an army (3-0).
Switch cat to a sword in Chicken as we need to use those we have for the army.

IBT:
Indian archer attacks 2/5 jt and dies, we get a slave (1-0).
Indian archer attacks 3/4 sword and dies, sword goes elite (2-0).
4 barb horses dies on j/t and sword and jt goes elite and makes a slave (6-0).

70AD:
Too many cities.
7 Carth units near Dyland.
Add one unit to 2nd army.
5/5 sword kills Indian archer (1-0).
[10-0]

IBT:
Nips send units to dyland.
India sends 5 archers towards Bengal.

90AD:
JT kill carth num (1-0).
jt kills carth warrior on the mountains (2-0).
I am going to bump the lux as I am sure the dyes will be cut during the IBT.
[12-0]

IBT:
carth warrior dies attacking jt in Dyland (1-0).
Num cuts dyes.
[13-0]

110AD:
Cuello riots.
Sword kill a num on a hill (1-0). I have to risk it as we cannot hold the town unless I can get some help there.
Sword kills a cath archer there (2-0).
jt kills barb, goes elite (3-0).
Too many cities.
jt kills Indian archer gets a slave (4-0).
4/5* jt kill Indian archer (5-0).
2nd kills archer and 1st kills 2 (8-0).
Benagal rioting as well now.
[21-0]


IBT:
Nip archers dies at Dyland (1-0).
Carth warrior also dies (2-0).
Carth Num dies there and the sword goes elite (3-0).
Bangalore finsihed Artemis.
London builds the Great Wall.
Wow I was lucky on this IT. I was seriously thinking of abandoning Dyland so as to not loose it and then founding another town to keep the count maxed.
It was defended by 2 units one red, one yellow and then I moved in two more yellow units.
None were forted and faced 4 immediate attackers and 3 more nums on the next tile.
Whew no losses.
[24-0]

130AD:
Oh my, first one is 5/5 sword vs 5/5 Indian archer and boom another leader you say (1-0).
Form army. Need units to fill these armies. 2nd is 2 man now and yellow.
5/5 sword kills Indian archer (2-0).
5/5 jt kills Num at Dyland (3-0).
3/5 jt kills barb and collects 25 gold from the camp (4-0).
2nd kills archer, now 2/8. Will add the sword that made a leader next turn (5-0).

IBT:
French finish the Gardens.
[29-0]

150AD:
Join 3/5* sword to 2nd.
jt kills Idian archer at Bengal and goes elite, gets a slave (1-0).
2nd kills archer (2-0). No rax so healing is slow. I switch build to a rax as this will be a busy spot, until we can get those armies out.
3/5* jt kills archer and gets a slave (3-0).
1st kills 2 archers (5-0).
[34-0]

Notes:
Sorry guys, I have to get going to work and it will be 10pm before I get back. Tomorrow is a busy day for me this week with only Sunday off, so I will pass it back with only 5 turns.

Someone can have most of the weekend now to do a set.

I have 2 taxmen, that could be beakerheads, but right now we need 4 more to matter.
A few units near Lazapa or whatever the name is are forted with enemy units near. I was going let them get to where I could try to ping them or they can attack forted swords on a mountain.

Dyland is left for the next player to decide. We have 4 nums next to it and a Nip archer that is not moving. The town has 4 jt's, 3 full health and a 5/5 sowrd. You have a few units near that you can consider attacking with as well.

I was thinking of letting the nums attack as they are hard to kill with javs, but not quite so strong attacking.

I forget if I tried to settle or not so the settler under the spear can be tested.
I went for Myst as I figured we wanted to get to Monarchy.
The 1st is now full health and can be sent out, I hope as the rush should be quelled some after losing so many archers.

Need to get the dye connected at the other town. Many workers are near and can get on the tile next turn. I was forced to be careful about moving workers in that area as archer were coming from three directions.

We have 1st at 12/12 iirc and the 2nd 3/13. The empty army is in Bengal. It will be some time before we can get sword to fill it.

I messed up putting some slaves on the wrong moutain to road near the spear/settler. They should have been on the next one over.

Yes, the conventional wisdom about avoiding a despotic GA grossly oversimplifies the question. The long-term multiplier effect of doing even 20% better than normal before 1000 BC is enormous.


I don't think it's a gross oversimplification to say that a GA with three towns qualifies as weak. Just to be clear, I agree it was unavoidable at that time. Copan had 2 reg warriors defending and 6 Japanese warriors inbound. The JT had to be brought in for defense or we would have lost the town and possibly the game. I understand the logic of going for WC first because of the slave factor, and that certainly boosted the overall position.

Had I been playing this solo, I probably would have started with bronze working and taken the less efficient spear just for delaying the GA long enough for some more towns. But there's no arguing with results. Our position right now looks just fine. :goodjob:

edit: Checked out the latest save. India and Carthage are both in the Middle Ages now, so we should probably focus on finding Delhi and capturing the GL.

I think I forgot about a num attacking Dyland on the IBT. If there are only four there, then one attacked and died. Anyway the reason I mention it is that Carth has been attacking with any units next to Dyland.

Getting very senile. I forgot to mention the Pentagon. I did not start it as I figured we need the sword more right now and will gamble on a leader to rush. I did not count the towns to see if we have enough for another army now or not.

ok, got it and if Greebley is lucky, he has a whole Sunday to play his turns as well

save (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53368/GR17_AD_300.SAV)

Pre-Turn
MM a little, fire the taxmen and get scientists
mysticism in 4, would like some fast units (horses)

IT defend against 4 units at Dyland producing 1 slave [4-0]

1.170AD
defeat archer at Bengal
defeat 3 remaining units at Dyland, but need to expose some units to Japanese archers

IT we go 1:1 against the Japanese, because only 2/4 archers attacked, get a slave

2.190AD
clean up 3 Japanese archers near Dyland, but run into 3 more in the hills
clear archer at Kolhapur and 2 at Bengal
defeat 2 spears In Chittagong

IT go 2:1 in the Dyland hills

3. 210AD
Dyes at Kolhapur connected, thus helps the happy situation
defeat 2 units at capture Chittagong
clear 3 assorted archers

IT defeat archer with sword in the hills of death

4.230AD
abandon Chittagong as the flip risk is too high
found Uaxtun in the west, there is a barb camp now near
defeat a spear, shift units so we can go forward to attack Lahore next

IT mysticism is in, HBR next

5. 250AD
fist army moves towards Lahore

6.260AD
our exploring elite JT, which wasn't attacked at all spots Delhi just behind Lahore :dance:, this isn't too far off for us
to take in the next turnset

move 2 armies next to Lahore defeating 2 archers
defeat 2 spear/ 1 archer, no leader luck for me

7 270AD
since we hardly lose units, the cost is getting staggering high

defeat 3 Indian archers in the east
defeat 1st spear in Indus

take 4 spears in Lahore, 2 archers left there
take out a barb camp and the much needed 25gold, get a slave

IT finally lose a JT to an Indian archer
they land 2 of them next to Calakmul

8.280AD
take out 3 more units and take Lahore, armies heavily wounded

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53368/gr17270.jpg

defeat 2 spears and take Indus, keep it
defeat both intruders, defeat an archer near Lahore, so we can draw units away

IT it workers, the archer next to Lahore doesn't attack, but goes after the JT and kills him

9.290AD
the flip risk is far too high to risk 2 armies, move them out and abandon Lahore, that has only the Mausoleum inside
found Mausolleum instead

beat a spear in Tokyo
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53368/gr17290.jpg

manage to raze Tokyo with 2nd sword and found Ek Balam instead

IT go 1:1 for the exposed units near Tokyo
continue to play cat and mouse in the mountains with Carthage units

10.300AD
move healed army towards Kolhapur, where the heavily wounded armies move to rest
we should move all 3 armies to claim Delhi

MGL moves towards Dyland, we could rush the pentagon with it
leave this to Greebley
HBR is done in 3

the east with Delhi not far off
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53368/gr17300.jpg

Actually markh is up. Looking good though. Just don't accidentally raze Delhi :D


Roster:
Greebley - On Deck
NP
M60A3TTS
vmxa
ThERat - Just Played
markh - Up

Fine progress, Vmxa and Rat. :thumbsup:

I don't think it's a gross oversimplification to say that a GA with three towns qualifies as weak.

That was more a comment on the general dislike of early/despotic Golden Ages than on our position here. Obviously going into the GA with three cities is hardly ideal--though by halfway through we had five, IIRC.

Well money will be a bit better once we get the GL. We may have a shot at a few turns of no reserach.

Looks like we will also be much stronger after the Pentagon goes up. Now all we need is some knights to do some real damage.

I got it. Will play tonight.

IBT : no fights

India starts Sun Tzu

1) 310AD : will rush the pentagon in Kaminalwhat as that town will finish its' sword next IBT
we kill an Indian archer at Mausolleum

IBT : Indians suicide an archer on Mausolleum

2) 320AD : rush the pentagon in Kaminalwhat
we kill a Japanese spear and archer

IBT : the Japanese suicide an archer on Uxmal
5 Indian archers die attacking Mausolleum, but they manage to kill one elite sword

horseback riding -> science to 0 and change scientists to taxmen

Pentagon is finished in Kaminalwhat

3) 330AD : quite uneventful

IBT : 2 reg Indian archers kill an elite JT and a sword in Mausolleum. The Indian archers are not even scratched. :mad:

4) 340AD : sword kills Japanese spear at Lazapa
we kill 3 Nums Waxy
lose a sword to a Num at Waxy

IBT : sword defends against a Num, but loses to another

5) 350AD : elite sword kills an Indian archer at Mausolleum
sword kills Num at Waxy and promotes elite
we kill 3 Japanese archers

IBT : an Indian archer suicides on Mausolleum

6) 360AD : we kill an Indian spear, 2 Indian archers at Mausolleum, a barb horse
we kille 3 Nums losing one sword at Ek Balam

our three armies approach Delhi defended by spears

IBT : lose three slaves to a Carthage warrior
lose a sword to a Num at Waxy

7) 370AD : we kill 5 Japanese archers at Uxmal
sword kills Carthaginian warrior at Ek Balam
elite sword kills Num at Ek Balam
elite sword kills Indian archer at Mausolleum
sword kills Indian archer at Mausolleum

armies kill 4 spears in Delhi and raze the city

just kidding :D

we capture Delhi for 1 gold, a worker and a catapult

IBT : TGL gives us
Philosophy
Code of Laws
Map Making
Polytheism
Currency
The Republic
Monarchy and I revolt

we get 4 turns of anarchy

8) 380AD : nothing

IBT : nothing

9) 390AD : we kill 4 Nums losing 2 swords at Ek Balam

IBT : Gandhi takes back Delhi as I left it unguarded, this will reduce pop and flip risk

10) 400AD : sword kills Num at Waxy
armies kill a spear and 2 archers and retake Delhi

Most of the action is at Ek Balam. The Carthaginian units use to step on the plain tile at Ek Balam, so we can pull out the cats from Lazapa to bomb them and finish them with the swords. There are still 2 turns of anarchy for the next player.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/47099/GR17_AD_400.SAV

Good news--the short anarchy especially. :goodjob:

great to capture Delhi, let's go round and raze more Indian cities and expand to finally keep Delhi.

the short anarchy is great, would that mean our empire is still considered small?

One thing, can we not expose workers. We need those guys. Keep them off the front lines. I would rather see them safely doing less important work, than be lost.

What does it look like for getting MDI's soon enough to be the 4th units in these armies and make them a bit stronger?

I think the anarchy length can vary a lot. OTOH, I think we have less than the OCN so in that sense we are not large.

I got it and will continue working on India.

Question: Do we want to spread out our cities behind the front lines (when we have a front line that is - probably after India)? There are barbs in this game and a wider city placement could be done to cover more ground meaning we don't need (as many) units to suppress barbs.

The alternative is to hunt barbs with JT every turn.

It would be good to try to expand to incorporate those ivory as soon as we can manage it.

Question, actually. I noticed that you've build the Pentagon, but that you're researching Monotheism. I assume that you have not yet reached Military Tradition. Is MT required for the Pentagon? If so, is this game being played on a mod that allows it to be build without Military Tradition? Or is the only requirement for the Pentagon that you have 3 armies?

Yes, three armies only for the Pentagon. It's the Military Academy that requires Military Tradition.

Question: Do we want to spread out our cities behind the front lines (when we have a front line that is - probably after India)? There are barbs in this game and a wider city placement could be done to cover more ground meaning we don't need (as many) units to suppress barbs.

CxxxC might be a good compromise.

FYI, I will be travelling and will not have game access from next Monday-Thursday.

Preturn: We are in Anarchy so no builds to play with. I kill an Archer with a Javelin and get a Worker. Try to lure the Indian Archers toward Mausolleum so we can get them easier. There is a river that makes it hard to switch units between cities.

IBT: Archers head for Delhi. I can't put units into it because all I have is Armies which is too much risk of a flip.

410 AD: Lose a Sword while attacking an Archer. Lose a second sword attacking the archer (in woods). Lose a third sword vs the other archer in the stack. Very frustrating. We finally kill one of the archers with a 3 hp Jav. We will lose Delhi again. We need regular troops if we want to hold it. Two Armies move on and find Bombay.

IBT: Delhi is captured.
We are now a Monarchy.

420 AD: At 0% science we are +3 gpt. Not so hot. Switch 3 main cities to Markets.
I will also try to get our cities bigger than size 7. Note that the city limit is hurting us here as we have plenty of land but cannot get more towns. Despite our slave count we need more workers. I may build a few. Attack Indian capitol Bombay with Armies.

IBT: Numideans aren't going where I want them to (near our Cats). They could be a real pain.

430 AD: Lose another sword to an Archer. Attack Bombay - It is size 12 so I Raze it - too flip prone even for me. Nets us 8 workers (2 or 3 were in the town already).
Build Quirgua near Japanese territory at the end of our road.

IBT: Indians are building Sun Tzu. Got the Num Mercs to move in the right direction.

440 AD: Kill some units. Lose a sword to a Num Merc.

IBT: Archer kills a Sword in the Mountains.

450 AD: Annoying Num Mercs are proving hard to kill. Get a Leader near India which becomes an Army

IBT:

460 AD: Finally get a whole stack of the Num Mercs - about 1/3 of the known ones.
Attack Bangalore. Sending an Army over toward the Carthage/Japanese front. The other 3 are still near India.

IBT: Stupidly lose a stack of Workers - I simply forgot to deal with a Spear.

470 AD: India got Iron and now has MDI and Pike instead of Archers and Spears.

480 AD: Attack Bangalore again, but will now need to heal. Attack Delhi.

IBT: More worker troubles. At least these I can get back.

490 AD: Capture Delhi we will get Feudalism next turn.

IBT: We have Feudalism.

500 AD: Get a Leader attacking the Num Mercs - Created an Army. Upgraded some swords to MDI for an MDI Army.

Notes:
My play was sub-par tonight. e.g. a rioting town and the lost workers. I would review the towns and such.

We are back up to positive 20 gold at zero sciencee. I also built/ am building aquaducts and Markets. Love cheap Aquas.

India has been sending some troops at us, but not a whole lot. There are 3 armies in the area - Two can go for Bangalore and the last should help defend as we don't have a lot of troops there right now. We need to send more.

Likely there will be another stack of Num Mercs next to our town. We have enough bombardment though that it shouldn't be an issue.

I need to go straight to bed so no pic. I might try to post one later.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/14765/GR17_AD_500.SAV

Another army is good. The city limit for armies may be an issue before long.

I've got it.

We actually got two armies for a total of 5.

One army isn't filled and will be an MDI army the rest are sword armies.

The Indians have become much more annoying now having MDI and Pike. It might be best to send the new MDI army toward India to try and take them out faster. The Japanese are primitive and are sending Archers while Carthage has only sent Num Mercs to date, but they are further away so might have better (we are allowed to check if they have iron). We can see part of the far side of the mountain range and I have only spotted a few Num Mercs coming at us.

600 AD, end of turn (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/33960/GR17_AD_600.SAV)

500 (0): Our cities look basically all right.

The Indians occupy ungarrisoned Delhi again.


510 (0): We re-re-re-take Delhi, I think it is :lol:, held by a pikeman and a horseman (2-0).

We slay two pikemen and a spearman in Bangalore, also overrunning an MDI outside the city, but the town remains garrisoned (6-0).

We bombard and destroy five Numidians next to Ek Balam (11-0).

We cut down a Japanese archer near Quirigua (12-0).

The Indians are fighting barbs in the immediate vicinity of Bangalore.

Palenque marketplace --> pikeman, Bonampak aqueduct --> MDI, Waxy Tongue aqueduct --> catapult, Coba aqueduct --> barracks.


520 (2): We take Bangalore from its remaining garrison of a pikeman and a spearman (14-0). Although this is going to be tricky, I decide to keep the town for the sake of the Temple of Artemis.

We account for an Indian horseman landed next to Bengal (15-0).

We bombard and smite three Numidians next to Ek Balam (18-0).


530 (3): Around Bangalore we dispose of four Indian units, two archers and two horsemen (22-0).

We complete a direct road to Delhi, which should make that situation easier.

Reconnaissance beyond Delhi reveals Madras.

Around Ek Balam we extirpate four more Carth units, two Numidians and two horsemen (26-0), generating a GL and thus our sixth army.

In the open in India we strike down a spearman (27-0).

Yaxchilan aqueduct --> MDI, Piedras Negras aqueduct --> MDI, Fryingpan barracks --> pikeman.


540 (4): A very quiet turn. We approach Madras and trample one Indian archer (28-0).


550 (5): We get started against the garrison of Madras, destroying a pikeman and a spearman (30-0).

We expunge one Numidian around Ek Balam (31-0).

Ek Balam barracks (lumberjacked) --> MDI.

Bangalore flips--no surprise, and it was empty.


560 (6): We re-take Bangalore, held by a pikeman (32-0). For some reason the wretched place's population doesn't fall.

We take Madras from its remaining garrison of two pikemen and raze it, gaining four slaves by various means (34-0).

Around Bangalore we ride down an Indian MDI and a spearman (36-0).

We found Bakingpan in a central location which consolidates our rather scattered position in India. It's also a superb site, with three cows and two wheat.


570 (7): We shatter a Numidian outside Indus (37-0).

We approach Jaipur with armies.

Bangalore flips again, again while empty.


580 (8): We take Bangalore (held by a pikeman) for the third time, and again the population doesn’t fall (38-0).

We annihilate an Indian spearman and a Numidian around Indus (40-0).

We raze Jaipur, held by four spearmen, though one of our sword armies has a close call (44-0). We gain four slaves and a catapult.

We found Tazumal NW of Delhi, further solidifying our position in India.

Mausoleum courthouse --> aqueduct, Tikal marketplace --> harbour, Tulum aqueduct --> MDI.

We get cultural expansions all over our empire, thanks to the ToA.


590 (9): Near Indus we demolish three Numidians, a Carth horseman, and a Japanese spearman (49-0).

We advance on Karachi, capturing two Indian workers.

Kolhapur barracks --> MDI, Bonampak harbour --> MDI, Indus barracks --> MDI, Coba barracks --> horseman.


600 (10): We raze Karachi, held by two spearmen (51-0). We gain a slave and a catapult.

We found Jaguar Paw on a good river site SW of Delhi.

We hack down an Indian MDI landed between Bengal and Mausoleum (52-0).

Our MDI eventually chase down a Carth horseman around Kolhapur (53-0).

I didn’t mention this above, but the light pressure against our homeland in this turnset allowed me to send both MDI armies directly to India.

We weren’t able to found a free city this round.

Two JT victories produced two slaves this round.

Eight elite victories generated one Great Leader this round.

The Indians are plainly gassed, which I why I haven’t hesitated to found cities close to theirs. Our only real problem in that campaign, unless they turn up with Jumbos, is that they still have cities in every direction.

We’ve gotten the essential benefit from the ToA, with one round of cultural expansions. But I think it’s still worth enduring the irritation of holding Bangalore rather than razing it, because we may be many turns from Education, and the ToA could produce a tremendous amount of culture for us in that time.

We’ve got an army east of Delhi which the next player can leave to heal or add to the advance on Dacca, as he wishes.

The Japanese are finally showing up south of Indus, after behaving very passively this round, and a modest second wave of Numidians is approaching Ek Balam. None of this should cause us any difficulty; the only tactical issue on that front is that we have to think ahead in terms of the river crossing, since we don’t have Engineering yet.

We didn’t get anything from the Great Library this round. This could possibly be one of those games in which it’s important to wipe out our immediate neighbours before Education, so that the GLib will pay off for us when we meet more advanced, more distant civs.

Almost all the tiles in our core are improved now.

Fryingpan will need MM after this interturn. So may Copan, since it's about to skim off a worker and the AI may not set it correctly to get its usual twenty shields when it's at size eleven for a turn.

We can use the settler SW of Uaxactun to make the check for a free city every turn. If it works, we’ll have a useful fishing village.

I’ve left our four settlers with their movement, to draw attention to them.

Interior lines:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/33960/GR17-600AD.JPG

M60 are you still available for this turn? I am about to head off for work, will check tonight or in the AM.

Sounds like good progress. We may have troubles killing Carthage before they get Education. If we kill India, I don't think we will get more techs until we meet another civ since Japan is primitive. However there is a chance we can even get techs past Education when we do. Worst scenario would be we slow Carthage down, but they get Edu and then we meet someone. We don't have to worry about that though until we are actually attacking Carthage.

I am guessing there are other civs on our continent (at least the lux situation would indicate it is likely).

Getting Ivory might be nice for a second Lux. I believe there is Ivory just on the far side of the mountains. Setting up a city there would be nice when we can do so.

I would keep up min research - we might get Engineering that way.

Roster:
Greebley
NP - Just Played
M60A3TTS - Up - will hopefully have time to play before Monday when traveling.
vmxa - On Deck
ThERat
markh

We slay two pikemen and a spearman in Bangalore, also overrunning an MDI

We bombard and destroy

We cut down

We account for

We bombard and smite

we dispose of

we extirpate

we strike down

We approach Madras and trample

destroying a

We expunge

We shatter

We annihilate

we demolish

We hack down

Our MDI eventually chase down

A fun read, Northern Pike. Especially seeing how many different ways you found to say "We killed". :lol:

I got it. Playing now.

lurker's comment: Fun and exciting read so far :) Keep going guys!

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/43630/Indian_Remains.JPG

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/43630/GR17_700_AD.SAV

Preturn- looks ok. Armies a bit beat up.

IBT- Japanese horses move in from the south. Numidians pulling back to heal.

Turn 1 (610AD) Redline with cats and dispose of a Japanese spear and three equestrians. Get a slave and an elite promotion for a MI (4-0). Redline reg Indian MI and vet JT collects slave #2. (5-0) Move our healthy MI army and a 16/18hp sword army and allow the rest to heal in place.

IBT- Bangalore flips again, losing a spear. (5-1) Paleneque riots. Scroll ahead and keep about 5 cities from rioting.

Turn 2 (620AD) Too many cities message. 2nd Mace Army kills two spears and Dacca is razed. (7-1) Potsandpans founded. Cats and elite sword suppress pike and Bangalore goes Mayan once again. (8-1) Upgrade about 4 swords and a spear.

IBT- No action. Japanese sliding west.

Turn 3 (630AD) Try to clog up the mountains and see if 5 Numidians make a run at Ek Balam. If they move into the open there are enough units to deal with them.

IBT- The Numidians go next to Ek Balam as hoped.

Turn 4 (640AD) Two spears killed by 1st Mace Army and New Bombay falls. 3rd Sword Army kills 2 spears at Punjab. (12-1) 4th Sword Army kills 2 Numidians at Ek Balam. Elite MI kills Numidian #3 and draws an MGL. :) Form MI army. Attack with an elite sword (I can always hope, can’t I?) No MGL this go, but kill Numidian and then finish off #5. (17-1) . 2HP MI kills red Carthaginian hoss. (18-1) First sword kills two reg spears and Hyderabad is taken. (20-1) It has incense adjacent so will be useful. India down to 6 cities it would appear. Find Ganges, but it’s building Sun’s. Not sure if it shouldn’t be saved for last just in case.

IBT- India kills an MI of ours with one of theirs. (20-2)

Turn 5 (650AD) Third sword army kills reg MI and Punjab falls. (21-2) An iron source goes with it. Three defending spears killed at Calcutta. (24-2) Kill barb horse by Bangalore. First Sword Army kills Indian archer at Hyderabad (25-2) First Mace Army kills off another stray Indian archer. (26-2) Kill 3 Jap horses and drive off #4. (29-2) MI at Fryingpan kills off Numidian and goes elite. (30-2) And kill two more at Indus (32-2)

IBT- Make the first mistake of leaving workers unguarded and a Jap archer captures several in the mountains.

Turn 6 (660AD) Get three new slaves as 2nd Sword Army kills reg spear and razes Calcutta. Deadpan founded. Kill 2 more Numidians with MI, both who promote elite. (34-2) Abandon Punjab and found Oilpan.

IBT- Nothing special, but the Indians are threatening Bangalore.

Turn 7 (670AD) Kill Indian MI, then lose one to a 2HP archer. Kill it with another MI. (36-3) Horseman Harry kills another Indian MI at Bangalore. (37-3) Lose a sword, and kill Jap spear, warrior and archer. (40-4)

IBT- Jap horses attack resulting in two red Jap horses.

Turn 8 (680AD) Kill 2 Jap horses at Quigera. Kill sword and pike at New Delhi. (44-4) Add Indian horse and archer at Deadpan to the count. (46-4)

IBT- Carthage wants to talk peace.

Turn 9 (690AD) 2nd Sword Army kills reg archer and New Delhi falls. MI dies attacking red spear. Kill it with a second. Waited long enough on Ganges. They are no longer building Suns. Kill pike and spear and the city falls. (50-5) Elite sword picks off Numidian. (51-5). 2nd Sword advances next to New Madras showing pike. 2nd mace Army spots reg spear defending in Pune. Add Jap and Indian spear to the tally (53-5).
Vet pike kills red Jap horse in the mountains to go elite. (54-5)

IBT- AI milling about.

Turn 10 (700AD) 2nd Sword Army goes red, but kills reg pike and spear at New Madras. Reg archer showing. (56-5) 2nd Mace Army moves next to Pune. Two Numidians and a Carthage horse die at Indus. (59-5) Get Jap horse by Waxy Tongue. (60-5) And done.

Post turn: The Indians will disappear in the next turn or two. They are down to two towns and two armies at the gates, although 2nd Sword is down to 6hp. Next up can decide whether to try and take them out next turn. There are two cats with 2nd Sword that may make a difference. I’ve left a couple armies near Indian towns in case of a last minute flip.

With India about finished, we can start moving south from Indus pretty much when we want. 4th Sword Army has a 7 cat escort in the lead, with another 10 MI and 11 cats ready to move out from around Indus. Workers are also there to start working the roads up.

Japanese are pretty much reduced to trying to sneak through our lines with 1-3 units, so keep an eye on them.

A fun read, Northern Pike. Especially seeing how many different ways you found to say "We killed". :lol:

Thank you. I'm flattered that you took the time to edit my report like that. :D

M60, nice round. I like "Deadpan". :lol:

nice progress NP and M60ATTS :goodjob:

with India gone we have 2 nice wonders and we can gain some much needed culture. It will be interesting to see whether there are more Civs on our land. There are a total of 3 luxes, I doubt 4 Civs are sufficient for 3/8 luxes.

Only two more Indian cities. Excellent progress. I checked and Japan is small with 8 or so cities, but Carthage is huge with 21 cities. They are likely be in military mode - they haven't gained a new tech yet. I wouldn't be suprised if they were a war with another civ.

Nice to see our economy is recovered (+96 gpt). I would make a push to grab the incense and the Ivory after India is gone. If we can grab them we should be able to reduce the 30% Lux we are spending and be even better off. A big surplus cash will help with research when we have to do our own.

Roster:
Greebley
NP
M60A3TTS -Just Played.
vmxa - Up
ThERat - On Deck
markh

I got it. Will try to not add to the worker casualty report, at least not by a 1 move unit.

The save here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/42522/GR17_AD0770.SAV

PRE:
Switched a few jokers to taxmen in towns in resistance.

IBT:
Looks like the Battle Animations was off as I see one of our horses must have retreated from an archer, but I did not see a battle. Turn that back on. I do not think any others occurred.

710AD:
Coba finished settler, starts a market.
4/4 sword kils the archer (1-0).
2nd Mace kills 2 in Pune (3-0).
Oilpan move a citizen off the forest on to an irrigated grass.
2nd kills 2 archers at New Madras, but a redlined spear still there (5-0).
5/5 mdi kills Nip spear (6-0).
5/5 mdi kills 2hp Num (7-0).
4th kils redline Num (8-0).
Switch Bakinpan from Rax to settler. No big need for a rax there now and want to see if we can get a town in on the river hill on the coast.
5/5 jt kill Nip archer (9-0).

IBT:
French town of Lyons finished Knights Templar.
[9-0]

720AD:
2nd kill spear and captures New Madras (1-0).
1 slave.
4/4 sword kills Nip archer goes elite (2-0).
6th kills archer and captures Pune (3-0).
Got 2 slaves and goodbye Ghandi-G.
4/4 MDI kils Nip spear (4-0).
4th kills Num (5-0). cats sucked and the rest are only pinged once.
[14-0]

IBT:
Zip

730AD:
Resistance ends.
We have no settlers in a spot to test for new cities, so I am trying to get one in a place soon.
MDI and horse kill redlined Nums (2-0).
4/5 jt kills horse and 5/5 one retreats one (japanese both) (3-0).
Horse finished the job (4-0).
[18-0]

IBT:
Crappy Nip horse comes across a river and kills a covering MDI on a hill, yuk (0-1).
French finish Sun's.
I see MW and maybe another civ attacking a barb.
GLB yields Mono.
[18-1]

740AD:
First order of business is to declare on the Dutch and the 7th kills their horse (1-0).
Second order is to declare on Hiawatha, so we now have two new friends, both with strong UU for this point in the game.
Ugly, the Dutch know chiv, so knights maybe coming our way soon. They also know eng.
3/5 jt kills 2hp Nip horse (2-0).
MDI kills Num (3-0).
MDI kills a Num (4-0).
4th needed 5 hp to kill 3/4 num (5-0).
3/4 horse kills 2hp Num (6-0).
MDI kills Nip archer (7-0).
5/5 jt kills Nip archer, gets a slave (8-0).
[26-1]

IBT:
2 Nip archers attack and die, we get an elite MDI.
3 Nums attack at Ek and die, pike goes elite (5-0)).
Dutch start on Leo's.
[31-1]

750AD:
7 cats hit once on num, thanks.
Horse kills Num (1-0).
Too many cities.
3rd kills Dutch horse and warrior (3-0).
[34-1]

IBT:
Nip archer dies on sword (1-0).
Athens does Leo's.
We get Eng.
[35-1]

760AD:
5/5 jt kills num (1-0).
MDI kills num (2-0).
3rd kills MW (3-0).
Too many cities.
MDI retreats horse and horse kills it (4-0).
MDI kil Num (5-0).
Horse kills Nip horse (6-0).
MDI kills nip spear (7-0).
4th struggles, but kills Num that was yellow (8-0).
[43-1]

IBT:
Archer kills an MDI across a river? (0-1)
[43-2]

770AD:
MDK kill Nip spear (1-0).
Sword kills archer (2-0).
sword kills archer (3-0).
11 cats go 2-9 on Nums.
5/5 MDI kills Num (4-0).
MDI kills Num (5-0).
Too many cities.
[48-2]
settler under Pike at Jag Paw and two others are in place.

Not much luck on elites this round. Several armies going down the coast, but none of the others civs towns in sight.

Sorry I only got in 7 turns in this set as todays was my son's birthday and it is already after 9 here, so I passed it on.

No Iroq or Dutch units have come forward.

good thing we took out India on time as we have to face MW and swiss mercs pretty soon, this can get ugly.
Do you have any info about the number of cities they both have?

I guess the notion of not getting education soon is moot. We better make sure we are in good shape for the attacks.

Got it

No info on the size of their empires as we cannot see a single town for them or carthage.

The MW's do not scare me now, but the knights they will be sending do. Like I said, both civs have UU's that are still viable. I guess it could be worse, they could be Riders.

The best thing for use is we have 7 armies and many of them are heading in their direction.

So far no one has Theo and seem to be on the lower path, but the completion of Leo's will probably change that.

save (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53368/GR17_AD0890.SAV)

Pre-Turn
we have 2 luxes now online, reduce lux to 20%
MM intensively and our income is up to 125gpt

IT some minor Japanese and Carthage movement, no attacks

1.780AD
not very eventful, defeat an archer and retreat a horse
trying to gain ground in the Alps

IT movement and a Dutch horse and Iro MW show up

2.790AD
moving closer to Kagoshima, 3 more MW's are exposed
defeat 4 Japanese are Quirigia

IT some minor movement again

3.800AD
attack Kagoshima taking 2 units, still stands
spot Carthaginian border in the south
dispose a barb camp

defeat a merc in the mountains after redlining it, lure them into a trap

IT more units show up at Quirigia, especially Dutch
2 Japanese boast sail around there as well

4.810AD
capture Kagoshima after defeating 2 units, that has a rax, keep it for now
move in the cats and bombard unit around it
defeat 2 japanese at Quirigia, gain a slave

redline 3 lured merc and take 2 out lose 2 horses trying to defeat a red merc

IT Kagoshima is he new magnet for the AI, we defeat 2 MW there, 3 stacks of Iro's coming closer

5.820AD
rush walls in Kagoshima, if we can hold off the AI there, we should be much better off with flat land instead of all those mountains
defeat 2 mercs and raze Carthago Novo in the south
found Largatero

defeat 2 units round Kagoshima and one Japanese in the Alps
Dutch have a lot of cities (25), but no iron :dance:

IT 2 horses run into view, a new Civ
a Kagoshima 3 mercs are defeated, more enemy troops arrive there
we get chivalry, invention and gunpowder from the GL, knights here we come

6.830AD
we do have 2 sources of saltpeter :)
the new enemy is France, owner of Sun Tzu and KT, musketeers as well I presume, this can get ugly
they have 22 cities but no iron and salt, declare war on them

take out first unit in Edo, ake 2 units at Quirigia but lose mace
take out barb camp way north
defeat 2 units at Kagoshima
defeat another merc in the Alps and manage to slowly crawl forward

IT our 2 armies in Kagoshima do a great job and take out 13 Iro archers on defense
in addition this city give us the respite we need in the Alps to advance

7.840AD
approach 2 more Carthage cities in the south
defeat 2 units and take Edo, it has a rax too, keep it at the moment
defeat 2 units near Quirigia

IT Edo seems now the more attractive target, as the enemy goes for that, will need to abandon it
we get some markets finally
we will need the 3rd lux conncted to enjoy that

8.850AD
abandon Edo to get army going
suddenly discover a big Incan stack, they all are attracted by barb camp I guess
however, 10 cities only and backwards, declare war

found Beyond the Alps
raze Calaris and Sulcis after defeating 2 mercs each, found Kabah and Ake

IT Kagoshima gets attractive again as 8 Iros commit suicide

9.860AD
take out 2 units at Kagoshima. defeat spear in Osaka
try and slowly extend the mountain range and getting another settler in place soon
take out a barb camp

IT 12 Dutch horses say bye bye at Kagoshima
Carthage is shifting units east, no good
Dutch start Sistine, no good also

10.870AD
take out Osaka and keep it for the army to heal and us to get settlers out
attack Tingis
bomb mercs and take out 4 near Beyond the Alps, still no MGL for me

play 3 turns extra to even things out

IT lose a small exploratory band of 2 in Japanese land
Carthage runs around and doesn't know where to go, now they all return towards Kagoshima
French start Sistine and that means we will get theo next turn

11.880AD
defeat 1 unit and take out Tingis, found Kammer

IT we get theology

12.890AD
abandon Osaka, found St. Moritz
defeat 2 and raze Cadiz, found Cornerstone

attack 2 Jap archers and manage to lose a horse and knight :gripe:

good time to stop for discussion and also the situation is nice for handover
are we going to start doing full steam research towards chemistry and MT
we currently make 188gpt at min research (2950gold in the kitty)

Once we have our 3rd lux connected, maybe we could reduce it to 10% and then have better research

the Alps
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53368/gr17890a.jpg
green mark ivory, purple should be our settling spots to seal off the mountains


our current razing campaign in the south
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53368/gr17890b.jpg

by the way, we have 2 armies in Kagoshima, as long as they don't move they will always heal fully after attacks, leave it that way until the danger is gone

Agreed. It is the best way to keep from losing the town.

Roster:
Greebley - On Deck
NP
M60A3TTS
vmxa
ThERat - Just Played
markh - Up

So the French are on our landmass? That will mean we can get Sun and Leo eventually, very nice.

It did not take long to gain a bunch of new friends. I had started a few libs, so we will need to get more going to increase our research.

It would be helpful cutting those roads in the south. It would slow down the speed of bad guys in our direction.

If no one has education yet, we may want to see if we can pick up chemistry as a freebie.

Good progress. :goodjob:

Sometimes I like the idea of resuming research while the GLib is still functioning, but I don't think we have enough gold in this case. I agree with M60 that we should wait a little longer to see if we can get Chemistry free.

Markh, Do you have this? Can you play?

Sorry, I am quite busy at work this time. I got it and try to get it done latest by tomorrow.

IBT : nothing spectacular

1) 900D : mainly moving units

IBT : not much

2) 910AD : almost lose an army on the attack on Kyoto

IBT : the Dutch units mainly move up the East coast
Iros send a few knights

3) 920AD : take Kyoto

IBT : now everybody is more interested in Kagoshima again as all AIs turn their forces around

the resistance is ended in Kyoto

4) 930AD : we approach another Carth city

IBT : nothing

5) 940AD : we take Satsuma
we raze Malaca (Carth), found Xcalumcin

IBT : all AI units head for the Japanese battleground

6) 950AD : not much to report

I will not be able to play tomorrow, so I better give it to the next one now.

Around the army in the pic there are a lot of Iroq units. Quite some knights and swords. They are heading towards the Japanese battleground.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/47099/GR17_AD_950.SAV

I have got it.

Preturn: Well the Byzantines are definitely on our continent and unmet. They built the statue of Zeus that requires Ivory. I don't like meeting them early with their annoying Dromons.

Some MM - bring our capitol to 14 shields with Copan at 18 (rather than 20 which is less useful for knights). Eliminate the less useful 13 and 11 shields. (18,14,12,10 to 1 are all pretty good - wasting no more than 2 shields).

No known civ has any techs we don't. Japan is down to 3 cities and will be my main target. It will knock out the galleys around or continent.

Wake an Army in the North and bring it south.

We have several fortified elite units. Wake them up and send them to the front line. No point in missing chances for leaders. Send some other extra units to replace key defenders.

I also think we may want a few more workers though I will wait and see if this is true. We have areas that should be connected or improved. Looks like we missed a core square or two and some core towns are using unimproved mountains.

IBT: Archer kills a Knight.

960 AD: There are a lot of Iroquois knights. Looks like I get to handle part of their rush. France has Horses even though they have Iron. Must have gotten it more recently.
Find Nara (Japanese capitol)

IBT: No units lost

970 AD: Less to kill this turn. One MDI army takes 10 hp killing a Regular Num Merc on the Plains Fortunately it started healthy. A civ got Education. I go to Max Science on Chemistry. 17 turns before scientists - drops to 13 after MM for the Scientists. We don't have a lot of science towns yet.

IBT: Some minor attacks but we win all.

980 AD: Capture Japanese town of Nagoya. Izumo is attacked (last town).

990 AD: Izumo captured. The Japanese have been destroyed

IBT: We lost a Knight killing one in exchange.

1000 AD: Lots of enemy units are killed - looks like we are getting parts of initial rushes from more than one civ. Lose 1 or 2 units

1010 AD: More units killed. Our armies are pretty much all on the front line except 1 now - there is plenty of units to kill. I have been getting a decent number of Elite victories every turn - 7 this turn (the most in one turn) but still no leader.
One knight goes in the wrong direction and will likely be killed.

IBT: Lose two Knight and an MDI one Knight loses to a Mounted Warrior even though it is on a hill and one Knight was a mis-move.

1020 AD: Two civs have Education now so next turn the GLib will end. We have Chem in 7 turns and the full research won't be a waste. Another large number of units killed with a very few losses on our side. Iroquois Knights are the biggest threat though Num Mercs also tend to be an nuisance. We finally get our Leader - Our first Knight Army - we have definitely had a dearth in leaders for this to be our first.
Cozumul is built to replace Izumo.

IBT: Lose a piece of road I am not happy about losing - makes it more difficult for sending units between two towns. No attacks.

1030 AD: Have to expose a MDI to help defend Nara in the south. Killing continues. The enemy continues to push forward toward towns in the south while we continue to pick off their troops. I think we can handle them though..

IBT: I forgot to mention a large number of Dutch Galleys sailing in our South. Building Galleys to counter.
Lose a Knight and an MDI.

1040 AD: Lose a Galley vs Galley battle.

1050 AD: Win a Galley battle, but our Galley is exposed and will die IBT. Kill a large stacks near Nara - only one unit can attack us now. Kill stacks near Cozumel - Get a 2nd Leader for our second Knight Army.

Notes:
No advancement after the Japanese due to large number of attackers - Iroquois and France initial rushes seem nearly over. Still a lot of Dutch to kill, but it looks managable.

Chem in 4 turns.

I suspect PP will be learned soon which means we will get a lot more contacts. It might be worthwile to establish a front line to handle the rushes that we will get when these happen. Looks like the continent is narrowest about where we are (see picture)

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a251/Greebley/GR17_AD1050.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a251/Greebley/GR17_AD1050a.jpg

The Save (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/14765/GR17_AD1050.SAV)

I am not satisfied with the worker locations. It might be worth a scan to improve some of their locations - go back and fix spots we missed.

GL NP. I think you will handle the rest of the current initial rushes without difficulty.

Roster:
Greebley - Just Played
NP - Up
M60A3TTS - On Deck
vmxa
ThERat
markh

OK, sounds good. :goodjob: I've got it.

Never really like making ships at this stage, especially galleys. They are next to worthless on defense and wins are not even a coin flip. Too me it just burns up shields and time.

In these games you have to have ships with bombard, before they can be used to control any space. The maint is better spent on workers.

Never really like making ships at this stage, especially galleys. They are next to worthless on defense and wins are not even a coin flip. Too me it just burns up shields and time.

In these games you have to have ships with bombard, before they can be used to control any space.

I agree. Fast movers can usually keep a coastline in control.

The coast line is huge. It will take a lot of shields in Knights to defend them all. We can build more than two galleys for only one Knight. Agree boat combat is really iffy. I am fine either way.

Ideal would be to get Trebs down there to bombard the boats first. If the boats have few HP then it becomes a win in our direction. I think the dutch are the ones with GLighthouse - their boats move 4 and don't need to be near shore which is unfortunate.

I've played eight turns so far. We've been able to send five armies to the Carthaginian lands and steadily take cities there, while holding our lines easily enough.

I'll post within twenty-four hours whether I'm able to play another two turns or not.

Gentlemen, my home Internet connection is down, so I can't post yet. :mad: My apologies. A repairman is supposed to come tomorrow, so I hope I'll be back online by Wednesday evening.

I will be out starting Saturday afternoon and will not have game access until the following Thursday evening.

1150 AD, end of turn (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/33960/GR17_AD1150.SAV)

Well, my Net access came back spontaneously, so I’ll try to post before it vanishes again.


1050 (0): I like our MM for knight production. :goodjob:

A French horseman defeats one of our pikemen in the open (0-1).

One of our galleys repels the attack of one Dutch galley, but is sunk by the next (1-2). I'm not sure what we can achieve with galleys when we don't have bombardment units in position to redline passing Dutch ships.


1060 (1): We're able to found a free city, Marzipan.

We batter an Inca stack of seven next to Cozumel (8-2).

Outside Nara we strike down one Iroquois and two Dutch units (11-2).

On the Kyoto front we smite one Carth and five Dutch units (17-2).

Our elite MDI in the far north slays an attacking barb horseman (18-2).

We skim a worker off Tikal, and then send it to the unfinished tiles in our core. (Later we do the same thing twice in the capital.)

The Dutch are building Copernicus.


1070 (2): One of our knight armies heading for the Carthaginian lands overruns a Dutch horseman (19-2).

We liquidate eight Inca and six French units next to Cozumel (33-2).

On the Kyoto front we dispose of fourteen Dutch units (47-2).

Outside Nara we deal with two enemies, one Dutch and one Carth (49-2).

Our MDI in the far north dashes out the brains of another barb warrior (50-2).

The Koreans complete Sistine and the Greeks complete Copernicus.


1080 (3): Chemistry due in one, but I'm not able to cut the science rate.

We lose a full-strength elite knight attacking a redlined French spearman next to Cozumel, before overcoming the spearman in a second attack (51-3).

We grind down ten French units bypassing Cozumel and taking the forest route to Kagoshima (61-3). About thirty French units are (or were :D) doing this.

We account for an Ir knight outside Cozumel (62-3).

On the Kyoto front we pulverize eight Dutch and four Ir units, gaining our first Great Leader of the round (on our thirtieth elite victory) and so our third knight army (74-3).

We ride down a barb horseman around Hyderabad (75-3).

Chemistry --> Metallurgy, due in eighteen turns at 50% and a small deficit. We're running out of gold for serious deficit spending.


1090 (4): With four armies now in the Carth lands, we close in on Sabratha.

On the Kyoto front we exterminate thirteen Dutch units (88-3).

Next to Cozumel we liquidate one French, one Ir, and two Dutch units (92-3).

We smash another twelve French units in the forest leading to Kagoshima (104-3).

Somewhat to my surprise the Dutch attack a pikeman on a mountain with longbowmen, and overcome it after losing one LB (105-4). They also lose a horseman attacking Kyoto (106-4).

The Dutch galleys along our coast--which haven't landed anything that I've seen, BTW--all reverse course for some reason.


1100 (5): We raze Carthaginian Sabratha, held only by two Numidians (108-4). We gain two slaves.

We found Flashinthepan to get the use of a fairly uncorrupt cow (so to speak :lol:). I'd like to get started on Greebley's projected defensive line across the narrow part of the continent, but our settlers aren't nearly far enough forward yet.

We rout seven Dutch units on the Kyoto front; two Ir knights and a French spearman near Cozumel; and two French horsemen in Kagoshima Forest (120-4). There are fewer enemy units in sight now.

Our elite MDI in the far north clubs another attacking barb horseman (121-4).

The Dutch galleys continue their mysterious retreat.


1110 (6): We annihilate eight French units in Kagoshima Forest; one Carth and two Dutch units on the Kyoto front; a Carth unit and two Ir units including a knight near Cozumel; and two Ir knights around Nara. We lose two MDI in the forest fighting, where our bombardment units achieve almost nothing (137-6). Outside Kyoto we gain just our second GL/army of the round, in fifty-six elite victories.

We gain a slave by unhorsing a barb outside Hyderabad (138-6).

We raze Oea, held by two Numidians, and gain four slaves by various means (140-6).

We found Spickandspan in our outer core, bringing a wheat tile into play.

We gain a slave when our JT in the far north repulses the attack of a barb horseman (141-6).

The Dutch galleys move forward again.


1120 (7): We raze Hippo, held by two Numidians, and gain a slave (143-6).

We found Brainpan with our most advanced settler, pushing our line forward E of Kagoshima.

We trample a Carth archer in the Carth homeland (144-6).

We disperse a barb camp near Brainpan, expunging a warrior (145-6).

We demolish four French units in Kagoshima forest; an Ir knight, a Dutch spearman, and three Carth units near Cozumel; and two Ir and four Dutch units around Nara (160-6). Our Leader luck turns, as we generate two, for a total of three in our last five elite victories. We lack the knights to fill the two new armies immediately, though.


1130 (8): We raze Leptis Magna, held by the usual two Numidians (162-6). We gain a slave.

We found Sampan—strictly a science camp, in our Indian lands.

We hack down three French units in Kagoshima Forest; one Carth MDI on the Kyoto front; five Carth units and two Ir, one a knight, near Cozumel; and ten Dutch units around Nara (183-6).

We spot Musketeers in the Carthaginian lands—still about ten turns away from our cities, but they’ll be a real PITA when they arrive.


1140 (9): We raze Utica, a size-ten city on a hill fortunately held only by three Numidians (186-6). We gain five slaves.

In the far north we pacify a barb camp held by a warrior, and subdue a barb horseman (188-6).

We found Tarpan, another science camp in India.

We re-build the tactically useful road between Cozumel and Kyoto.

We eliminate three Numidians and an Ir pikeman near Cozumel, and seven Ir knights and a Dutch LB around Nara, losing an MDI in the Cozumel fighting (200-7).

We spear two attacking barb horsemen in the far north, enslaving one (202-7).

The Dutch finally land something from their galleys—a spearman and an LB, between Quirigua and Cornerstone.


1150 (10): We raze Rusicade, held by two Numidians and an archer, and sink a galley in port (206-7).

We found Tinpan, a third science camp in India.

We mop up the Dutch spear/LB team near Quirigua (208-7).

We overwhelm two Dutch units on the Kyoto front; one Inca, three Carth, and seven French units near Cozumel; and two Ir knights and a Dutch spearman around Nara. We lose an MDI at Cozumel (224-8). Outside Kyoto we generate a Great Leader, and so our fourteenth army.

We were able to get through this round without an excessive emphasis on military builds, and we completed a lot of infrastructure.

Nine JT victories this round produced three slaves.

Eight-four elite victories this round generated five Great Leaders, against a normal expectation of seven.

We didn’t meet any new enemies this round, and for the moment this is a pretty easy situation, in which we can hold our lines without strain and send any new armies to join our offensive against the Carthaginians. The Sixth Knight Army (already on its way) and the Fifth (by Cornerstone) should proceed to the Carth lands.

We’re building a road on the hill tile occupied by two of our armies where we razed Utica, which we can finish next turn before moving anything else if we add more workers to the build. If we do this with the right timing, and if passing enemy units don’t get in the way, we can move a third army (in addition to the two obvious ones) adjacent to Carthage next turn, while our two most depleted knight armies in the area get a healing turn.

A lot of Ir knights may show up in front of Kyoto in a turn or two, but we have good lateral communications for our big concentrations at Cozumel and Nara, so it shouldn’t be a problem.

We can just see Dutch and Iroquois borders, at the extreme SE of the known world.

We have settlers in position (W of Satsuma and NE of Brainpan) to found mildly useful cities when we raze our next two enemy towns. We also, finally, have settlers near our front lines available for more aggressive foundations, if that’s what we want to do. But I’d be very careful about settling forward from Brainpan, because if we attract the AI’s attention there we’ll turn a basically unified front into a divided one much harder to hold.

We have sixty cities and fourteen armies, so we may hit a plateau at fifteen or sixteen armies, in which case we should probably use Leaders to rush universities in our core.

We have an empty army in Kyoto.

We have five galleys supported by three trebs near Bonampak ready to start chasing the Dutch down our coast. I have my doubts about this too, but I kept Greebley’s builds, so we’ve got a flotilla and we might as well use it.

The three longbowmen we’re building in our north core are intended as MP units, and shouldn’t leave the area. One can free the knight in Coba to join the fighting.

Our core cities facing the great mountain range will have to work a fair number of mountains if they’re ever going to use twelve tiles. So we shouldn’t hesitate to irrigate over their mined tiles, particularly at Uxmal and Lazapa.

We need to look out for full food boxes in our size-twelve cities, or we’ll throw away a lot of basically free workers. Tikal and the capital need particularly frequent skimming.

Settling forward:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/33960/GR17-1150ADi.JPG

The pleasure of ruins:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/33960/GR17-1150ADii.JPG

Excellent progress NP.

Keep an eye on diplomacy - the AI may learn PP and we will have more civs to declare war on.

Agree on continuing worker skimming on max food cities. That and using our Jav's against def 1 and 2 redlined opponents. These games need a lot of workers and it looks like we are advancing faster than we are improving our territory.

Roster:
Greebley
NP - Just Played
M60A3TTS - Up
vmxa - On Deck
ThERat
markh

Another thing we could do with the leaders when we hit the cap, is to send an acient army to disband on the uni or whatever for 100 shields and use the leader to form a better army.

OK, I got it. Pulled an MGL on turn 1 and will stop for the night. Probably will not get in a full turn set before I am unavailable, but will see.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/43630/A_Few_Good_Armies.JPG

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/43630/GR17_1250_AD.SAV

IBT- Barb warrior moves onto incense source

Turn 1 (1160AD) Horse attacks barb and does nothing but stays alive. 7th Knight Army receives its troop component. 6th Knight Army disposes of 3 Iro knights. Carthage loses 3 MI and a numidian by Cozumel. France loses four spears there. And we collect MGL Leader. At the risk of being labeled a heretic, I load it with the now elite* knight plus two more elites. I find the additional staying power of elites in an army can make a difference and we just don’t have any vets in the vicinity. Elite galley sinks elite Dutch galley. Elite* MI kills vet Dutch LB. 4th Knight Army kills Iro knight. Hire 3 more scientists to keep natives happy. (14-0)

IBT- AI advances and barb warrior cuts incense. Knight dies attacking a forted elite JT on a hill. (15-0)

Turn 2 (1170AD) Lose a galley and sink two Dutch ones. 8th Knight Army filled and needs to be brought up to strength. 5th Knight Army kills 2 Iro knights. 3rd Sword Army kills another one. By Cozumel, kill French musketeer, a warrior, 3 LBs and 4 spears. Get a crusader with an elite MI and old Blue-Quetzal-Macaw is back on the scene. That’s the good news. That bad is that we’re at the army limit. So we attack and kill 3 numidians and raze Carthage. Found Pannsylvania. 4th Knight Army kills a Dutch MI. 2nd Sword gets two Dutch spears, 7th MI claims a warrior at the same spot, then moves on to bag an Iro knight. 6th Knight Army claims another Iro knight and tops it off with a Dutch LB and spear. (41-1)

IBT- Lose a pike to a Cathaginian MI (41-2)

Turn 3 (1180AD) Lose two galleys attacking a Dutch one. As vmxa said, the things are a crap shoot. 3rd Knight Army kills 2 numidians and Saldae is reduced to rubble. Pandora’s Box founded. 7th Knight Army erases 2 Iro knights and a pike. 3rd Sword Army collects an Iro MI and spear. Elite knight finishes red Iro archer in the stack. 1st Sword Army kills Carthaginian MI and numidian. MI kills a red French MI on a hill. 4th Sword Army gets French spear and Carthage MI. MI kills red French LB, but there’s a LB stack behind them so expect to lose him next IBT. 1st Knight Army gets Iro musket. 7th MI kills Iro MI and knight. 6th Knight racks up Iro MI and Dutch spear. (60-4)

IBT- Lose MI to French LB. Payback in a minute. (60-5)

Turn 4 (1190AD) Eliminate French crusader, warrior, 8 LBs and 5 spears in one stack by Cozumel. 2nd Knight Army kills 2 numidians and an archer and Theveste is reduced to rubble. 4th Knight Army bags 2 musketeers, 1st Sword gets spear and LB. 4th Sword kills LB. 2nd Sword Army gets Iro musket and pike. Knight kills Iro pike. 6th Knight Army eliminates red Iro knight. (87-5)

IBT- Kyoto riots.

Turn 5 (1200AD) Mayapan founded. 5th MI Army kills 2 numidians and Cirta is gone. 1st Knight Army kills numidian at Nora. Peterpan founded. 9th Knight Army activated and filled with 3 available knights and kills French LB and spear, knight promotes elite. 3 French spears, 2 LBs and a warrior eliminated by Cozumel. 8th Knight Army kills 2 musketeers. 7th Knight gets Dutch spear. Check F4, no new contacts. Rest some armies that need a break. (101-5)

IBT- Barb warrior attacks elite pike after being redlined by treb. Pike is killed clean! :mad:

Not. ;)

Turn 6 (1210AD) Knight kills French spear wandering aimlessly. Pandemic founded. Knight disperses camp for 25 gold. At Mayapan, 9th Knight Army gets 2 musketeers. 8th Knight Army gets a musketeer, crusader, spear. 1st Sword Army gets French spear and LB. 4th Sword Army gets spear. 1st Knight Army kills numidian at Gades, 2nd Knight Army does the same and takes the city. Hannibal is down to 3 cities. He’d give us two if we were so inclined. 3rd Knight Army collects 25 shillings for a barb camp. At Hyderabad, clean out barb warrior and horse. (112-5)

IBT- Quiet

Turn 7 (1220AD) 3rd Knight Army kills spear. 2nd Sword Army gets Dutch knight. 6th Knight Army claims 3 Iro pikes. 7th MI Army gets another pike and Iro knight. Knight kills Dutch pike and 2nd Sword picks off spear. 1st Sword gets French spear. 3rd Sword Army bags 2 Dutch spearmen. 4th Knight collects French spear. (125-5)

IBT- 4 Dutch LBs and 3 spears move next to an empty Satsuma. So close and yet so far…

Turn 8 (1230AD) After a shower of rocks and our deadly efficiency, a red spear is all that remains of the Satsuma stack. Satsuma occupied by our knights. 9th Knight Army collects two Iro muskets. 4th Sword eliminates numidian. 3rd Knight Army kills Dutch spear and LB. French MI and Dutch spear dispatched by 1st Sword Army. 4th Knight gets a French knight. 3 Dutch longbows die by Peterpan. 3rd Sword takes out two Iro knights. Two Dutch spears go and upon nabbing a LB, Eighteen Rabbit appears. 7th Knight takes out Iro musket and Dutch LB. 6th Knight Army gets two Iro knights. 5th MI Army rubs out 2 numidians and Leptis Minor is a rock pile. Move army out of Gades to prevent losing it in case of a flip. (153-5)

IBT- AI heads everyone away from the front. Must be attracted by an empty Gades.
Metallurgy> MT in 12, but the gold will run out before then.

Turn 9 (1240AD) Fish Market founded. Gades disappears and Fish Fry founded. 2nd Knight Army kills 2 Numidians and Russadir is captured. 7th MI Army kills barb horse. Combined armies kill 2 Iro muskets and 2 pikes. 5th MI Army spots the Carthaginian capital. Two Iro pikes killed by 4th Sword Army. 5th Knight clears barb camp. 10th Knight Army added to the roles. Will fill next turn. We are at the Greebley Line with a good number of armies. Still no contacts. (161-5)

IBT- As I was saying… Ragnar shows up at our door and says something about an early feast. Yes, and you’re the appetizer. His vanguard approaches in the form of two horsemen.

Turn 10 (1250AD) 1st Knight and 5th MI Armies each kill a numidian in Hannibal’s final stronghold. 7th MI Army clears out a Carib encampment for 25 gold. 10th Knight Army fully equipped. 8th Knight kills Dutch spear. 3rd Knight gets two Iro knights and a Dutch one. 4th Knight kills 3 more Dutch knights. Both Vike horses are a memory. Two Dutch spears and 4 LBs go away in the east. And done. (179-5)

Post turn: I drained most of our settlers. Three out there and more in queue. I disbanded a few cats at Mayapan even though there are no lack of AI spears to ease our unit costs a tad. I wasn't creative in the build department as a lot of knights simply came on line during my set. Also started a couple universities but they can be changed if desired. MT in 11, but only enough gold to run at 50% science another 7 turns.

Next up will take out Carthage next turn. You will have to decide if holding Russadir is worth it. The French spears are on a pillaging spree there. Two armies are holding it.

No lack of bad guys. The French and Iro cities are a little ways off cranking plenty of units and we should get some healthy armies in their direction soon.

Excellent progress on Carthage. Our meeting of enemies has been just about perfect (for us that is) which means it will be an easier game. Lets see how fast we can win. :D :D

Roster:
Greebley
NP
M60A3TTS - Just Played
vmxa - Up
ThERat - On Deck
markh

Great new batch of city names, M60. :lol:

Vmxa, we have builds all over the map which have been made obsolete by our quick advance, so please review them before you start playing. Ganges, Brainpan, Cozumel, and Nara should all be building something other than what they're working on now. I'd switch the latter two towns to settler builds, rush the settlers, and cancel the settlers in Kagoshima and Jaguar Paw, viable towns which should be allowed to develop normally.

It'll be worth trying to hold on to Hadrumetum, though I realize it may prove impossible, since it'll be a +5 food town for us and a good place to rush settlers.

The capital should skim off a worker right now, and Tikal in two turns. Copan should switch to a knight, complete that, skim a worker, and then return to working on a university, rather than going unskimmed through a long uni build.

We've done a good job of getting libraries built in our core, but Coba and Quirigua still need them.

I just in so I will take a look at things tomorrow, so anyone got any thing to toss about I will pick in up before playing.

I forgot to mention the galleys are forted in a town if you need them.

Ok, off I go, so to late for further input.

Just an update for the day. I got 7 turns in today. Slow going and not much progress really. Met 2 new civs, nice guys too. Let me think, oh the most friendly and caring Bismark and Sultan of Arabia I think, not sure.

Carth gone and so is the Incan empire. No problems for us only lost one unit so far.

Here is the save:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/42522/GR17_AD1300.SAV

Shootof where the town is located:

PRE:
Swich Brainpan to worker, could have been a settler though.
Cozumel to settler. I looked around and found 1 settler due next turn and few other soon, with 3 in hand. I rushed the settler as one is on station and we may need a settler to use before they can arrive. Probably not though as only 1 town is under attack and may stall.

Switch Nara to settler, but hold off on rushing for now.
Gange is not a clear cut choice. I would prefer a settler here, but it will pop in 3 turns and leave the city size 6 for 10 more turns. I just defer the call for now by switching to a LB as a place holder to see if I need a settler here quickly or can pop a cheap MP first.
Kagoshima is similar. I switch to a market for now and change a citizen to a beakerhead to slow the growth a bit. This can be change as well, but an extra happy face is not all bad here.

Jap Paw I switch to market as well. These can be change to units if need be with no loss.
Chicken to worker, which I intend to have mine those irrigated grass tiles to gain 3 more shileds. This will save a turn on cavs and some other builds like wonders can be shortened.
Also once we get rails it, it becomes 6 more shields.

Copan switch to knight.

IBT:
Animate battles was off, but it looks like 2 barb horses attack the jt that was forted on a mountain covering a slave. Both die and yield another slave, that is how I found out it occurred (2-0).
Scores of units move about not even sure who is who at this point. Will check f4 to see if any new civs are among them.
[2-0]

1255AD:
Oilpan needs beakerhead to quell the natives.
Not sure if we already knew them or not, but I do see Arabia is not at war with us, so I slap him one time, killing a horse (1-0).
3rd kills dutch knight (2-0).
5/5 knight kills Iroq knight and gets leader (3-0).
17th kills Num and abandons Hadrunetum (4-0). Sorry, but it was too damage to try to hold this place alone.The 5th was redlined, so it would be of no help. This way I may be able to not lose both of them as I hope the AI will leave them.
I captured and abandon as I was hoping to sell a few structures, but it only had a rax. I also did not want to try to drag 1 or 2 workers to safety.

The other aspect is that we need to get our line of defense up and it will help to plant towns. We can do without a +5 more than we can do without 2 armies.

Kill barb horse (5-0).
found Kaminaljuyu after moving over 1. This is to try to cut off easy passage to the rear.
We only had two settlers in position to found this turn.
Iroq knight nearly kills the 9th at the front door of this new town (6-0).
Too many cities, so I moved the other settler to the hill.
start the 2nd to the capitol. This will eventually be disband for shields as I cannot found another army and it will take nearly as long to get the leader back there.
We may get enough towns to build an army before then.
4th kill dutch knight (7-0).
Renamed the new place to Starting_Line_Here. This looks like as good as of a place to make a line for now.
Forgot to mention the Carth boys are out of the game now.
Only one well army and it move towards the front.
[9-0]

IBT:
Nothing, except someone starting Magel's.

1260AD:
Too many cities.
Ok, I am not sure what we want with Rusaddir, but I am abandoning it. It is too far away for now and is tying up 2 armies. I will see if I can save the slaves, but I doubt it.
Found Kaminaljuyu again.
8th kills 2 Iroq knights (2-0).
4th kills dutch pike (3-0).
2nd kills 2 ansars (5-0).
knight kills vike knight (6-0).
11th kills 5/5 vike knight (7-0).
Rush settler in Nara as we have none in the front righ now and none close to it.
3 places need specials to stay happy.
[16-0]

IBT:
zip

1265AD:
13th kills knight (1-0).
knight kills dutch LB (2-0).
4 MDI's attack dutch knights going 1-1-2 (3-1).
4th kills another dutch knight (4-1).
knight kills iroq pike (5-1).
12th kills the 2 retreating dutch knights and one other (8-1).
2 knights kill dutch spear and LB (10-1).
14th kills another LB and a musketeer (11-1).
14th kills Iroq knight (12-1).
16th kills vike elite knight (13-1).
16th kills dutch knight and spear (15-1).
knight kills arabian horse and goes elite (16-1).
15th kills 2 dutch knights (18-1).
10th kills knight and spear. Both armies lost too many points on those knights.
drop research back to 40% to go from -60gpt to +26gpt. MT in 9 instead of 8.
Down to 180 gold. May need to rush something.
[34-1]

IBT:
Inca was destroyed.

1270AD:
knight kills musketeer (1-0).
2 knights kill 2 dutch spears (3-0).
2 mdi's kill dutch spear and LB (5-0).
12th kills 2 dutch LB (7-0).
Too many cities.
settler parked by Ganges so we always have one to found a town.
My man, knight1 flawlessly kills Iroq knight (8-0).
16th kills 2 knights (10-0).
5/5 knight kills Iroq knight, we still have a leader, (11-0).
knight kills spear (12-0).
2 knights go redline killing 2 redlined ansars (14-0).
8th kills dutch knight and mdi (16-0).
knight kills spear (17-0).
9th kills 2 vike knights (19-0).
Most of this fighting is by start_Line. Some units are heading for it and others are going around heading deeper.
More towns need specials.
[53-1]

IBT:
Iroq run a bunch of unit away from Alleghany and move other into and out of the place. Got to love as it is now under siege by 3 armies and a 4th near.

1275AD:
11th kills 2 musket and knight at Allegheny (3-0).
6th kills one musket cover 11th (4-0). Now redlined.
17th kills LB and captures it. Sell market and abandon (5-0).
knight kills french spear and goes elite (6-0).
Found New chic.
4th kills fr mdi (7-0).
16th kills Iroq knight (8-0).
mdi drives one off.
knight1 finishes it (9-0).
1st kills arabian horse (10-0).
12th kills Iroq knight (11-0).
7th kills vike knight (12-0).
2 knights kills 2 iroq knights (14-0).
8th kills spear (15-0).
14th kills dutch lb and vike knight (17-0).
[70-1]

IBT:
barb horse attacks jt and dies (1-0).
[71-1]

1280AD:
Too many cities.
knight kills crusader (1-0).
jt kills redlined musketeer (2-0).
4th kills musketeer (3-0).
knight kills fr spear (4-0).
knight1 kills pike (5-0).
1st kills 2 iroq knights (7-0).
knight kills mdi (8-0).
knight kills ansar (9-0).
knight kills Iroq knight (10-0).
15th kills 2 iroq knights (12-0).
10th kills swiss merc and spear (14-0).
9th kills crusader (15-0).
14th kills iroq knight (16-0).
I hvae sent 2 knights to the tundra area to scout of camps and be on hand for any landings in that area.
I also have replaced a few early units in our core coast with knights. I sent those to sit on some of the new spots that are save. Those units cannot defend anyway.
We have 422 units and 465 pop.
[87-1]

IBT:
nothing

1285AD:
Well I spotted a strange color and sure enough it is Bismark and I give him our usual greeting. After all we do not want to have too few friends in this great land.
knight kills dutch knight (1-0).
Looks like Start_Line is finally clear. At least for now. Units heading closer to the other coast.
2 knights kill dutch units and a 3rd knight retreats (3-0).
10th kills swiss merc (4-0).
disband 3rd sword in capitol and then form new army named Cav-3rd. Will not fill it until we get cavs.
8th kills dutch knight and iroq knight (6-0).
Found barb camp.
Too many cities.
8th kills 2 barbs collect 25 gold (8-0).
2 more towns need beakerheads. These all could avoid it with an MP. some of them have one coming, but they take about 6 turns to arrive.
[95-1]

IBT:
Zip

1290AD:
Ok, I guess I was not paying attention. I do not see any pre for the Mil Acad. Since chicken just finished a build, I start a colosseum as a pre. If we get a leader it will probably take too long to get there anyway. I will see if I can spare another sword army to head back to speed the build in the mean time.

We get a volcanism event, but it seems to have done nothing. The roads next to it are not cut.
11th is now well enough to be left on its own to heal, so I send 2 more armies towards the new towns I found. Will have enough armies on site to attack next turn or the one after.

Well now, I had just send a sword army back and then an elite knight kills dutch mdi and gets a leader (1-0).
Sending leader to nearest town, which is also in the direction of the core.
knight kills swiss merc (2-0).
Too many cities.
Note that no units are on long moves that would take them in danger or even out of our borders. It is either settlers from the rear coming forward to some town as a safe stop or knights moving to the front or a few to the tundra area.
I figure we need some extra help back there to repel any landings or uprisings. It won't be long before a few civs hit the next age.

mdi kills iroq knight (3-0).
knight kills swiss merc (4-0).
16th kill dutch lb (5-0).
8th kills vike spear and lb (7-0).
[103-1]

IBT:
finally some action. Exposed jt way back got hit by two iroq knights and killed one (1-1).
vike knight attacked an exposed 3/4 knight, but we win and go elite (2-1).
Lots of AA and early middle age units have been moving our way.

Note that a few fr units started our way out by the last abandon town, but then more headed the other way.

Just a reminder that cav-3rd is sitting empty. I use the naming to replace the one disbanded. This way we only have 1 army with a given number and we always know how many we have. This lets us refer to any army by just the number.
[105-2]

1295AD:
knight kills vike knight (1-0).
Too many cities.
knight kills vike spear (2-0).
knight kills vike archer goes elite (3-0).
8th kills swiss merc (4-0).
knight kills iroq knight (5-0).
13th kills 3 merc at Tilburg (8-0).
9th kills lb and razes the place for 24 gold, 5 slaves and a treb (9-0).
This place was a tough call, I am sure it held all structures. it would have raised a lot of cash for selling off. 13th is near dead, but covered by 9th.
New copan founded on the opposite side of the line.
centralia is next up. 4 armies nearby, but only one can reach next turn.
Need one more town for another army.
Leader in Peterpan.
Even by adding 20% more, could not lower MT, so stay on 40%.
[114-2]

IBT:
nothing much. I think we should get a few musket to the line as so man units are on the move, we could stand some better defense. Start_Line does not have an army in it right now.

1300AD:
Too many cities.
16th kills 2 german swords and moves onto forest tile. This is so the 13th can move under it to heal for a turn and the slaves can move there next turn (2-0).
knight kills iroq LB (3-0). Goes elite.
knight kills ansar (4-0).
knight kills iroq lb (5-0).
knights kill zerk and lb (7-0).
knight kills iroq knight (8-0).
[122-2]

Five armies on on top of Centralia, so it should go down. Another town can be seen, but not the name.
Leader in Peterpan. Sword army closing in on captiol to rush the MA or nearly so.
Have 398 gold and +12gpt now. MT in 2.
Tweak a number of places to get pop on more food.
Kaminalwhat? will need irrigation as it only has 23 food, unless you can swap a tile with someone.

A few builds look like they could stand a change, but I leave them for the next player to consider.

I have count, but many scores of units are coming in form the fog. They have been going towards Start_Line or just passing near it to get deeper. This is now closed off, so I expect them to come to the town.

It only has MDI, knights and some trebs. No real great defenders. Many armies are covering cats near it.

Need to get the cats under just two ro 3 armies to free up some. If we could get another settler on the line that would let some cats go there and make passing slower for the AI.

You could cut the roads as well.

MT in 2. Do any AI civs know MT yet?

Roster:
Greebley
NP
M60A3TTS
vmxa - Just Played
ThERat - Up
markh - On Deck

No one has it.

got it then....cavs will help us here

save (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53368/GR17_AD1350.SAV)

Pre-Turn
MM a little
stats for now, we do have 71cities, the known enemies have at least 100+ cities

IT defeat a knight and 2 Ansars on defense, all with knights

1.1305AD
defeat 4 units and raze Centralia gaining 8 slaves
redline an army defeating a single musket in Akwesasne
found Cliffhanger and we can form another to be filled army

sacrifice 2 cats so we can rush a rax at starting line for 80gold to be able to upgrade knight there next turn

defeat 10 units at our diagonal defense line, no leader
reduce science to 0%

IT meet the Byzantines, declare and immediately 7 of their annoying dromons bomb a city
Scandinavia, Germany and Arabia move stacks towards our land
Mil Trad is in, astro next in 8

2.1310AD
at least Dutch and Scandinavia have Mil Trad as well
upgrade a few knight so that we can fill our Cav armies next turn

defeat 3 units and raze Akwesasne, found Goldmine

IT more enemy movement

3. 1315AD/B]
start to attack Niagara Falls
fill first Cav army and move towards front
our defenses see many enemy units, take out 15 and get finally another MGL
defeat a total of 20 units

disband sword army to rush university in Tikal

IT more units come towards our borders, we need more units to defend

[B]4.1320AD
form a 3rd cav army
try and found a city and it actually works out, found saltpetertown

defeat 2 units and Niagara Falls falls for 6 slaves, found West Coast
move cav army towards Hilversum, they can take on swiss mercs

beating up the units at our front produces another MGL

IT the map is so crowded that the AI are blocking each other

5.1325AD
defeat 6 units and Hilversum is no more, found Plain and we can form another Cav army
after beating up 10 units, we have another MGL, what to do with it for now???

IT AI's slowly but surely breach our defense line, simply too many units

6.1330AD
defeat 19 units the the frontline to ease the biggest pressure

slain 3 units and raze Oil Springs, found another city in our core

IT Vikings finish Magellan

7.1335AD
armies move forward, to simply move a new cav army into the field is difficult as almost every place is clogged with
enemy units
clear some at our home front

IT Fish Fry seems to magnetically attract the dromons, around 15 are there to bomb absolutely nothing

8.1340
take St. Regis after 3 units are killed, decide to keep it for a turn to maybe pull away the enemy from our front
defeat around 20 units at our home front, a stack of slaves reaches home also

IT the lame trick works partially as some AI move away, at last some slight relieve for a turn

9.1345AD
use MGL to rush Mil Academy in Copan
defeat 4 units in Haarlem, last unit is a cav, get 85 gold for that
found Sugarbabe

raze Gayageehe and abandon St. Regis
found 2 new cities, one of them in not such a good place (temptown)

manage to clear our frontline a bit now with some pressure off

IT astronomy is finally in, go for banking nex as it's cheaper than physics

10.1350AD
clear quite a fwe units around our front line, move towards enemy cites, but some armies need healing
we can now form another army if we get a MGL

our front line, soon we can close all gaps
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53368/gr171350a.jpg

the fighting front
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53368/gr171350b.jpg

Note that boats will bombard a city if it has a defender. One good way to stop bombardment is to not defend it (so you either want to defend adequately so you don't lose all your HP or not at all if you don't want to lose pop or infrastructure).

Of course with potential berserker, not defending it might be unwise. Also if they are already slugging a useless town - well that seems best anyway. For that case keep a defender in the city to lure the attacks.

Roster:
Greebley - On Deck
NP
M60A3TTS
vmxa -
ThERat - Just Played
markh - Up

You must put enough units into a town to absorb bombardment, if you want to have any structures and pop. Once we find out were they want to attack either fill it or empty it.

Just be sure to have a rax if it will have units. I prefer to fill it. Otherwise they may bombard tiles and we do not want that.

We were lucky in the prior games to have them in the ealry game, they are the biggest pain, until we can get frigates and arties.

The point is that if you take the units out of a coastal town they will stop attacking it and go for one that does have units - or bombard units or workers on the coast, etc.

I suspect if no towns nearby had units they may attack an empty town. Or they may start sending their boats to a distant town with a unit in it.

I have definitely removed units from a key town and had the AI stop attacking it. It is also a strategy you can try to pull ships into Artillery range.

I was glad they chose Fish fry as it has 1 unit and a cat inside with no infra. They only kill the extra pop so far. let's leaev them alone. Imagine they would bomb our front city and we would face attacks when our units are wounded. Byz come pretty early in the rotation and that would leave us exposed to almost all other AI's

I got it. Will start this evening.

I can't speak for Byz as I have not encountered them in some time, but the rest will use frigates to pound most anything. I had them bombard empty towns that had structures.

I had them pound tiles that workers were improving, until all improvements were destroyed.

Sounds like we were lucky and they did not get many hits this time. Having 1 unit and a cat means those will be killed eventually and we are losing pop.

If we had 5 units, they will move on or do no damage. Better yet, move an obsolete army into the place and it can take all the hits, if we get a rax up.

Ping any ships that are left in range. If they move on you move units to the new target. Ideally you have the only empty or nearly empty town out their reach in one move.

Then you can fill any place they go, but usually they will stay right there and pound that army.

All I am saying is lets not lose anything to bombardment.

No need to get distracted by bombardment either. It's not significant in the big scheme of things.

That depends on how much of it there is and where it is located, does it not. We will soon be seeing scores of bombardment and it will at the least be annoying and likey much more than that.

Northern Pike, I cannot play until Monday at the earliest. Assuming markh finishes before then and you have time this weekend, then I would like to swap with you.

Otherwise if you are also busy then I will wait until then to play.

Likely Roster:
Greebley - Swap with NP
NP - On Deck
M60A3TTS
vmxa -
ThERat - Just Played
markh - Up

Ok, I'll play if there turns out to be a meaningful gap between when Mark posts and when you can play.

I will continue tonight and post latest by tomorrow.

My computer is broken :cry: , so I cannot continue with it. I will get new parts tomorrow, but I do not know when I can continue. I even do not have access to post my 3 turns I got done until now. As I have not posted any information I think it is best if the next one continues with it for the time being. Sorry, guys.

Hope your computer gets better soon. I am interpreting your statement to mean Northern Pike should play the most recent save from ThERat. If not pls correct me.

Likely Roster:
Greebley - On Deck
NP - Up
M60A3TTS
vmxa -
ThERat - Just Played
markh - If your computer gets working then you can play after NP if you would like. Just post that you would like to play before NP finishes/I post my "Got it". Otherwise I will take it.

I've got it, then, and I'll play from Rat's save if there's no change in the situation. However, Mark, I won't be starting until late Friday; so if you get your computer fixed quickly, you should definitely post your save and perhaps we'll be able to save your work. Three turns represent serious labour in this game. :rolleyes: :lol:

I already have new parts, but I am still missing a Power Supply. My old one does not work with the new mainboard and of course I noticed this only after assembling the new hardware. :hammer2: I try to get one in a local store this evening. However I think it will take some time to reinstall everything.

When was the last time old stuff worked with new stuff? ;)

I have game access again.

I've played three fairly normal turns, except that we have nine new enemies thanks to Printing Press. We've razed three enemy towns.

I'll post whatever progress I've made in time for Greebley to play on Tuesday evening.

More or less I got the hardware to work. Still have some sound issues. Greebley, I think it is best I go back into the original roster as I want this damn thing to run properly again, so I still have to try some things out.:mad:

Ok sounds good.

Roster:
Greebley - On Deck
NP - Playing
M60A3TTS
vmxa
ThERat
markh

Do we know if most of those 9 civs are on our landmass?

Great game guys. Really enjoying this.

1375 AD, end of turn (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/33960/GR17-1375AD.SAV)

1350 (0): Here and there along the main front we pick off another eight enemy units, including an Iroquois knight (8-0).


1355 (1): We raze Dutch Enschede, held by three musketmen (11-0). We gain five slaves by various means, and 81 gold.

We slay eighteen enemies, mostly Byzantine, near Starting Line Here; five, including two Ir knights, in the gap in our lines; and fifteen, all Arabian, outside Saltpetertown. We lose a cav in the gap (49-1).

We found Pantheon in the gap, though not far enough forward to close it completely.

In no-man's-land we ride down a Viking cav (50-1).

The Vikings are building Smith's.


1360 (2): We hack down a Dutch force of three landed on Coba's mountain (53-1).

It's tempting to go after Dutch towns at this point, since they have some gold, but I decide it's more important to stick with the Iroquois campaign now that we've exposed their best cities.

We raze Chondote, held by two musketmen (55-1). We gain two slaves.

One of our cav armies gets started against Gewauga, crushing a Ir LB on the approach and disposing of a musketman in the city (57-1)

We found Pantechnicon, a science camp in India.

In no-man's-land we account for a German pikeman and an Ir musketman (59-1).

We smite nine enemies, mostly Byzantine, near SLH; five, principally German, in the gap; and twenty-four, principally Arabian, outside Saltpetertown (97-1). We gain two Great Leaders, the second of whom can’t form an army because we’re at the limit.

The Portuguese (10 cities), Sumerians (23 cites), Greeks (20), Koreans (15), and Persians (14) introduce themselves to us with various gracious offers, so we declare war on all of them. :lol: Most of our new friends are building Shakespeare.


1365 (3): We raze Gewauga, held by a remaining garrison of two musketmen (99-1). We gain three slaves.

We found Pangloss, filling the gap in our main front.

We extirpate five enemies, mostly Ir, near SLH; seventeen, principally Viking, around Pangloss; three outside Saltpetertown; four, all German, in the New Copan area; two, both Ir longbowmen, in the Iroquois lands; and one, a Viking cav, in no-man’s-land (131-1).

The English (18 cities), Ottomans (23), Hittites (22), and Aztecs (20) join the roster of our enemies.

An Ir knight, redlined after passing through army zones of control and taking defensive bombardment, nevertheless defeats our elite pikeman in SLH in five straight rounds (131-2). :rolleyes:


1370 (4): We storm and raze Salamanca, held by four musketmen and an LB, though it’s a tough fight which leaves two of our cav armies in the red (136-2). We gain two trebs, a cat, and five slaves.

We found Pantops Mountain, filling in the hole in our borders behind Saltpetertown, after which we’re able to form our twenty-first army.

We exterminate three enemies near SLH; twenty-three, all German, around Pangloss; five outside Saltpetertown; twenty-one, mostly Dutch, in the New Copan area; and one, an Ir MDI, in the Ir lands (189-2).

The Chinese introduce themselves. Judging by luxuries they’re on a different continent, so I assume our other new acquaintances of this round are too.

The Vikings move a stack of forty-four towards Pangloss. This rules out the only other forward settlement, SSW of Pangloss, I had in mind for this round.


1375 (5): We raze Cattaraugus, held by three musketmen (192-2). We gain five slaves and a treb.

We found Pantagruel, a science camp in India. Our Indian lands can still accommodate a few more of these.

We assail the Viking SoD approaching Pangloss and denude it of its defensive units, striking down two musketmen, twelve pikemen, and a knight for the loss of a cav (207-3). We’ll now have two turns to attack the defense-factor-two units in the SoD before they can attack Pangloss, so the rest shouldn’t be too difficult.

We expunge five enemies, including our first three Musketeers, near SLH; three around Pangloss; five outside Saltpetertown; three, all Dutch, in the New Copan area; and one, a Byzantine spearman, in the Iroquois lands. We lose an MDI around Pangloss (224-4).

Our one JT victory this round generated a slave.

Twenty-one elite victories this round produced two Great Leaders

Finishing off the Viking SoD while also stopping the thirteen Musketeers now in sight may be a little tricky, but nothing Greebley can’t deal with, I’m sure. ;) We’ll have enough gold next turn to rush a barracks in Pangloss, which will probably be useful even if it isn’t strictly necessary. This is still a safe enough position that we should send another cav army to join our offensive as soon as we’ve taken care of the present problems.

The MDI and sword units sheltering under our army next to SLH have used 1/3 of a movement point this turn, so they can’t reach Pangloss.

We’ll be able to consolidate all the slaves, trebs, and cats we’ve accumulated in our offensive on one tile next turn. I’ve been using the MDI army to guard the booty.

It’s still DromonFest ’07 at Fish Fry, with the Byzantines harmlessly bombarding our three units there, so that’s working out well.

A Viking caravel sailed as far as Town0007 before we pinged it, so we have to be careful about Berserkers.

As before, the LB builds I’ve got going are for MP duty. Getting rid of the clowns in Palenque and Tulum should be our priority there.

We’ve got two settlers on roadless hills which would be acceptable sites for infill towns.

The front now (Viking SoD at 1):

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/33960/GR17-1375AD.JPG

Lots of land in the dark still, wonder how much is part of this contient.

Ok, I got it.

Minor changes. Decide to try to get Banking a turn earlier. It will allow me to build some Banks which I think can help.

IBT: Lots of units and initial rushes going on it looks like. Could get crowded on the front lines.

1380 AD: Raze Ganogeh and build Onahill
I can lower science which means I can get banking a turn earlier and still not run out of cash.
2 MDI and a Sword cannot do a single point of damage to a French Musketeer.

IBT: Lose a Sword army when a Cavalry attacks it and injures it enough for other units to take it out.
Smiths completed by Korea and Shakespeare by Greece.
In fact several nations now have Cavalry which will add challenge to our next round (until we get rails I suspect).

1385 AD: Get 2 Leaders disbanding a sword army to build 2 new Cav Armies (one lost and one disbanded sword army to allow for the 2 cav armies).

IBT: Lots of enemy units. I will mostly be defending on my turn as we are getting several initial rushes. There are a goodly number of cav too.

1390 AD: Lose a Cav to a 1 HP Musket.

IBT: Lots of cruft and some Cavarly.

1395 AD: Kill Kill Kill

IBT: Vikings start Newtons and are now in the industrial age.

1400 AD: Raze Grand River and build a new town dzib-something. Lose another Cav to a 2 hp Musket.

IBT Massive Barb uprising near Hyderabad. Guess someone else is also Industrial other than the vikings.

1400 AD: Kill Kill Kill

IBT: Some Barbs show up.

1405 AD: Lose a Cav to an injured Spear.

IBT: Landing between West Coast and Nara.

1410 AD: We are starting to drive back the enemy - there is not enough to kill for the first time and some units rest Armies are still needing healing so this is good.

1415 AD: More armies rest. I think the next player will be able push forward again(unless another rush shows up). Another Iroquois city is razed and replaced with a new town elsewhere. Going negative gold for two rounds to get Physics in 2.

IBT: Landings continue in the spot (between west coast and Nara) - we get a double landing from 2 civs.

1420 AD: Abandon a city to advance the main line.

IBT: More boats heading to the same landing spot.

1425 AD: Attack Caughnawaga - It will likely fall next turn.
Abandon 2 more towns to build front line ones
[b]Declare war on the Monogls.

Notes:
Starting line here needs its defender back. I did check to make sure noone would attack it this round.

I MM'ed for scientists - the next player shouldn't need to go through the corrupt towns to do so.

The Banks I started should be finished soon. There probably wasn't enough Banks to run 50% science - we really need more towns for that. I am hoping the next player can do more to increase town count.

Magnetism and ToG are both 9 turns, though we may be able to shave off a turn from that.

All landings have been between West Coast and Nara. You can see two armies nearby that are healing

I slowed down some Byzantine ships by dinging them. They will likely be back later.

I found it a good strategy to hunt down the Cavalry before they get to our front lines. The armies in the no-man's zone were doing exactly that.

The huge stack of Workers that from NP's turn have made it home. We have excess workers now, but I think we will want every one of them when we get rails. I would prefer not to join them to cities.

I mis-moved a unit (cannon) near Brainsample. I covered with a Pike but we might lose it if there are any Cav nearby.

Our front line:
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a251/Greebley/GR17_AD1425.jpg

THe Save (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/14765/GR17-1425AD.SAV)

M60A3TTS, you are up because NP swapped with me

We could have rails by my next turn depending on how many turns ppl play.

Game is slowing down and the AI should be getting rails which will make it even slower. Remember you can take 5 days to play (and 6 is ok too if you want to finish up).

Roster:
Greebley - Just Played
NP (swap)
M60A3TTS - Up
vmxa - On Deck
ThERat
markh

Yeah any Sword or MDI armies have to be careful about taking damage and being in the open now. If I get leaders that cannot make an army and I have those types arouund I try to disband them for shields and make cav armies.

Later they can be use for not offensive task, if they survive. Do we have any count on how many civs are on our landmass yet? IOW are these new civs known to be elsewhere? I guess if we learn of them from contact trades, it is likely they are elsewhere.

Looking at [edit] luxuries is the best way to check.

However there are several civs that are on the Comm list that we have not met. They could even be on our home continent. They simply cannot afford communication (I am guessing this means we don't care as much because they won't be big.

Likely though, those with no contact will be elsewhere.

OK, I got it. Five civs in the Industrial Age no less. So much to do, so little time...

I am quite surprised that we have such advanced AI's, thought with our fast expansion initially we would be better off...makes for an exciting game that might last a little longer for once

Cost factor for them is better than that 362. That killed them and the slower contacts.

The huge stack of Workers that from NP's turn have made it home.

Well done. I thought they'd eventually have to build their own railroad home. :lol:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/43630/End_of_Hiawatha.JPG

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/43630/GR17_1475_AD.SAV

IBT- As Greebley suspected, we lose the pike covering the cannon from a Vike cav. Multiple landings at Nara.

Turn 1 (1430AD) Declare on Rome. Caesar is still learning the ways of mono and chemistry. Knight Army kills Iro musket and Caughnawaga captured. Abandon city and move knight armies next to Tonawanda. 9th Knight Army kills 3 muskets defending Tyendenaga. Reg musket still showing. Kill 14 French spears by Brainsample and lose a cav. At Nara beachhead, 21st cav army kills Dutch cav, 2 Korean knights and a pike. Cav gets Hittite chariot, lose an elite MI to a vet Korean pike taking it to 2hp, cav kills Korean MI. At Fort Lugnut, Dutch lose a pair of mercs, Byz an MI and spear. Cav goes elite in the process. 13th Knight gets a knight and 2 LBs. 10th Knight gets a Byz knight. Cinq Oasis founded. 3rd Cav gets two Vike cav. Independent Cav Army kills zerk and German knight and begins pillaging a new firebreak about 10 tiles in advance of our furthest borders. 12th Knight gets French musket and MI. Knight captures Dutch explorer.

IBT- German galley sinks attacking our caravel.

Turn 2 (1435AD) Tonawanda and Tyendenaga taken by 11th and 9th Knight Armies. 3 muskets killed in the process. 7 Arab pikes, MI and French spear killed at Brainsample. Two Dutch cav and an Ansar killed at Lugnut. 21st cav kills 4 Korean units at Nara. 10th Knight gets Byz knight. 13th Knight gets Iro knight and MI. 6th MI gets French MI and crusader. 14th Knight gets Arab pike. 3rd Cav Army kills 2 French MI, spear and German spear. I know this will be unpopular, but disband a bunch of captured workers and a couple artillery pieces that a knight army was guarding. We can’t afford to have armies sitting on protective duties right now. 12th Knight kills Byz knight and Iro LB but is now at 5hp. Cav army kills 2 German pike, an MI and spear SE of Lugnut. Cav gets Arab pike by Cinq Oasis.

IBT- Not a disaster, but a horrid IBT. About 8 Byzantine knights come out of the fog to assault Tonawanda and destroy 2 knight armies. :cry: :cry: :cry: A third barely survives. About 6 Byzantine knights are lost. Can’t recall the last time when an AI attacked three armies in a city when they were not all redlined.

Turn 3 (1440AD) Abandon Tonawanda. 6th MI kills 2 Ansars. 20th Cav kills German spear, 3 Ansars. 3rd Cav gets vike musket and zerk. 7th MI kills 2 musketeers. Knight and cav kill 2 Ansars. 4 muskets killed defending Kahnawake and city razed, but another knight army redlined. Cav and MI kill 2 Ansars. 2 cav kill 2 French MI. Swiss merc and 2 Arab pikes killed with cav army. 14th knight gets Arab MI, pike, Ansar. 15th Knight finds Iro town of Oka. 16th Knight Army kills Iro LB, only is now down to 2hp.

IBT- No better than the last. A redlined cav army killed by a French cav and a knight army killed by a Byzantine knight. :sad: :sad: So now I owe the team 4 MGLs. Two cav land at Nara.

Turn 4 (1445AD) First, an assessment. The AI still has plenty of units coming at us and they don’t lack resources. Just about everyone has knights or cav it seems. Greek and Dutch cav killed at Nara. 15th Knight kills 2 muskets at Oka. Kill 2 Dutch cav and get an MGL, so that’s a start. Cav kills musketeer. Vet cav kills red German pike and goes elite. Vet cav kills another one. 2 French cav killed with 2 zerks and pike by Brainsample. 4 French cav and musket killed.

IBT- Ansar kills knight clean

Turn 5 (1450AD) 10th Knight kills Ansar and Byz MI/spear. We have a couple new towns forward, Ambleve and Trois Ponts. Kill French cav, 3 MI and 3 musketeers and other assorted units. Lose a cav. Kill German knight, 3 muskets and a pike. Kill 3 Hittite chariots at Nara. 3 Vike muskets.

IBT- Lose 2 more cav.

Turn 6 (1455AD) 7th MI kills German pike and MI. Kill a French cav with elite cav and draw another MGL. Cav army kills musket and razes Oka. Kill 4 Ansars by Monte Cassino. 10th Knight kills 2 vike cav and a French one. 21st cav kills 3 musketeers.

IBT- Lots of fast movers approaching in the north. Hittite landings by Nara.

Turn 7 (1460AD) Add towns of Salerno and Neufchateau. Killing and more killing.

IBT- Forgot about those Hittites. 3 cannons captured and a worker lost. :(

Turn 8 (1465AD) Kill 11 legions at Monte Cassino. Kill the Hittites. Reclaim the cannons.

IBT- No losses for a change. Byzantines trying to get around the northern flank.

Turn 9 (1470AD) Armies make it to the last Iro city of Gandasetaigon and kill vet musket. Disconnect their salt while I’m at it.

IBT- And they just keep on coming. Almost lose another cav army as Dutch cav takes it to 2hp. 4 or 5 knights land at Nara.

Turn 10 (1475AD) Finally destroy the Iroquois and collect 168 gold. :) Kill 4 cav at Nara and lose 1. Eighteen Wabbit is borne from battle. :) Now I’m down one army. Disband some cats so we can get a rax in 1 at Neufchateau that is on the front lines. More killing, clear Nara again and done.

Post turn- I did merge some native workers to reduce our overhead. Actually just think of them as temporarily unemployed. We can always peel some off the corrupt towns as we close in on steam. Never lost 4 armies in a set before. But gained 3 so that helped a tad.

I pillaged the roads in spots and have tried to block easy access to our front line towns in the south. Note we can build one town now, but it is in the ice patch in the vicinity of the barbs. Another settler could make it to greener pastures next turn. It is taking time to walk down there.

Two armies need healing by where the Iro capital fell. Many bad guys even in that vicinity. Germans are attacking from the far south, Vikes in the same general location. French are trying to work their way around to the center from the south. Arabs tend to come through the center, and the Romans and Byzantines in the north. Landings at Nara essentially every turn. Since the other civs have all these untouched cities, their units are just streaming in everywhere. Definitely need more raxes to keep our armies from being bled white, which in many cases they are.

We're doing ToG at the moment and then can finish up with physics.

We may need to consider communism in this one. These core cities are not the most productive I've ever seen, but that's a long ways away.

I think I have animate battles off again. I tend to do that in these big games, at least until it's time for the IBT.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/43630/Southern_area.JPG

"IBT- Not a disaster, but a horrid IBT. About 8 Byzantine knights come out of the fog to assault Tonawanda and destroy 2 knight armies. A third barely survives. About 6 Byzantine knights are lost. Can’t recall the last time when an AI attacked three armies in a city when they were not all redlined."

Really, the AI will surely attack captured towns or beachhead towns regardless of the number and quality of the units in it. I just had literally 29 MA armies in a town and they just keep attacking it with zero chance to take the town, not sure they could even kill any armies. They were using infantry, cavs and guerilla's.

The only time you can be sure they will leave it alone is if they cannot reach it. True they often bypass towns with armies, but not always. I prefer to not put armies in a town that can be hit, unless I know they cannot take it down.

As to any redline army, they have to be coverd by a knight army or a cav army of at least green or they can bite the dust as they will attack them with cavs.

It is very risky to not settle a town when you can as that risk them getting another town instead.

I also agree with Greebely that we should bite the bullet and keep all workers. I would rather drop the research pace for a time than to lose a worker. Those rails will be our life savers and we need them up ASAP.

Thanks for the heads up on the animation as that caught me by surprise the last set.

That was some fast set, thought I had at least two days before I would see the save. I will get started later tonight.

Hum, I was looking over the list of our friends to see how many are not met and found this:

Just starting, but I figured I would slap this up for Barbslingers and others. A list of our current friends and those we will soon have I am sure.

Hum, I was looking over the list of our friends to see how many are not met and found this:

Yep, looks like they appeared in the turn 6 IBT according to the autosaves.

Only reason that I even looked was as I looked at f4, I realized it was going to be a real pain to check all those civs. I had no idea what colors I had already seen.

It is easy to have someone come into view and never notice it was a new contact, unless they call you up.

I use the shift-d every few turns. That shows all the civs and their peace/war status on one screen. It is easy enough to declare war if one or more show peace.

If I may ask, is there a plan to relieve Ragnar of some of that gold? It's got to be getting heavy.

I am not sure we know where he [Edit: Ragnar] is yet (I don't think we do). It is a good point in that we should prioritize his cities if we do find any.

I use the shift-d every few turns. That shows all the civs and their peace/war status on one screen. It is easy enough to declare war if one or more show peace.

I yes, I had forgotten that one. In fact I don't think I have ever used it.


As to the Vikes, no clue. The gap from our front to the next otwn is quite a distance. I managed to get part way into turn 4 last night and a this morning.

Going to try to get 2 more hours in tonight.

Ok here is the save:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/42522/GR17_1505AD.SAV

I only got 6 turns in this round. I was hoping to finsih in the AM, but the boss lady needs a ride to the docs before I go to work and I am stuck for the next two days so no sense in holding it.

PRE:
Bangalore,Brainpan and Oilpan each need a beakerhead to avoid a riot.
Found tundra town rather than risk missing out. We need to get a couple towns down there to prevent uprisings anyway.

It saves 3gpt for now and can be abandon later in favor of a forward town.

IBT:
cav attacks and dies, answar attack mdi and retreats.
Athens does Newton's. (1-0)

1480AD:
One unit was built this turn.
salerno - 3/4 cavs kills Byz knight and goes elite (1-0).
12th kills other knight (2-0).
10th kills two legions heading towards a besieged Cassino (4-0).
Monte Cassino - cav kills arabian pike, 5th kills 2 (7-0).
8th kills legion (18-0).
3/4 cav kills one (8-0). 4 left. 10th does one more (9-0).
Run a cav down and kill the last pike on a road tile, will ignore the other one (10-0).
Trois Ponts - send cav from Neu and kill fr cav near Ponts (11-0).
16th kills fr cav and musketeer (13-0).
11th kills german pike and fr or dutch cav (15-0).
cav retreats from musketeer.
13th kills muskteer (16-0).
7th kills AC (17-0).

Armies now MDI (5,6,7th)
Knight (8,10,12,13,14,15th)
Cavs (1,2,3,4,9,11,16,17,18,19,20th).
So 3 mdi, 6, knights and 11 cavs for 20 total.
All are damage, with several redlined.


Neufchateau cav kills german knight. 4th kills answar and covers 11th.
2nd kills 2 musketeers after relining them. (22-0).

Start some workers that are midway between the front and the core, back to the core to be in place for railing.

Also going to use some to chop trees in the rear so the rails will go up easier and we can get a mine down now. May give up a couple of shields, but time is more important.

Too many cities. Leave that settler in place to found after any IBT opening.

Redline zerk by Nara and kill it (23-0).

Too many workers to protect in the front, not sure why we want to expose them anyway. Improving tiles here is of little value, but workers for railing are valued. I send more back to get in position.

Two towns need beakerheads.
[24-0]

IBT:
The bombardment has killed pop in Nagoya and redlined several units.
3 english units land at Nara.

1485AD:
Ganges finishes a cannon and I switch it to a settler.
Last round I only had one elite to use and it was 4/5. Got one promotion, so it seems we have next to nothing right now to make a leader from amd really very few cavs at the front period.

No units were built other than the one cannon.

Too many cities.
4/5 kills arabian pike (1-0).
cav kills AC (2-0).
13th kills answar, musketeer and mdi (5-0).
3rd kills byz horse, fr lb and rome's spear (8-0).
17th kills rome's mdi and horse (10-0).
7th kills byz knight (11-0).
11th kills fr lb (12-0).
4th kill dutch cav and vike cav (14-0).
19th kil 2 dutch and 1 vike cav (17-0).
2nd kills vike cav (18-0).
9th kills 3 german knights (21-0).
3 cavs kill 2 english knights and 1 cav (24-0).

5 towns need specialist this turn.
[48-0]

IBT:
Nagoya gets hit and loses the rax. I suspect that they were part of a captured town. The real worry is that the vikes will stick a zerk or 3 in a ship and hit. They have 5 or 6 frigates on scene now.

Unless we can get enough units there to absort all the bombardment, all structures and pop will be destroyed. This is what I was talking about way back when. I am trying to get some units there and cycle them to Satsuma to heal. Pandra's also getting pounded as well as Fish Fry.

Lots of Vike units coming our way now.

1490AD:
5/5 kills germany knight that got past the front, but was redlined (1-0).
Too many cities.
3rd killed 2 byz knights (3-0).
5/5 cav kills byz knight (4-0).
4th kills 2 v-cav and swiss merc (7-0).
17th kills 2 fr unis (9-0).
19th kills 2 answars (11-0).
5/5 cav kills answar (12-0).
16th kills musketeer (13-0).
2 more towns need specials.
[61-0]

IBT:
Looks like 5 or 6 cavs got behind the front. Can't tell as they are in the fog near Ambleve's coast. I forced them that direction as there are trees to block movement.

1495AD:
Drop research to zero, ToG in 1.
kill 3 barbs (3-0).
19 romans step next to Ponts and 6 more nearby.
3/5 kills dutch or fr cav (4-0).
6 cavs kills 6 romans, no promotions (10-0).
14th kills 2 more (12-0).
8th kills 2 more (14-0).
20th kills 3 more (17-0).
10th kills 2 arab pikes (19-0).
cav kills another goes elite (20-0).
Too many cities.
5/5 killed another (21-0).
chop forest find bg.
16th finds dutch town and captures a work, disband too far away.
19th kills german knight (22-0).
2 cavs kill fr cavs (24-0).
11th kills another 2 (26-0).
17th kills 2 german knights (28-0).
16th kills fr musket and mdi, 2 roman mdi (32-0).
19th kills german knight (33-0).
3 more towns to deal with.
[94-0]

IBT:
Frigates hit with the first 10 shots and go 12 for 15.
Dromons do the opposite with about 3 for 17, good thing.
Two barbs attack our units and die promoting cav to elite (2-0).
[96-0]

1500AD:
ToG comes in and I start Steam. We need to go straight for RP. Need those arties and infantry to free up the armies for attacking towns. Not to mention the faster workers.
I would pile up cash to upgrade some cannons to slow down those frigates and Dromons.

37 Roman units on the scene now.
Too many cities.
5/5* mdi kill redline musket (1-0).
3/4 kills zerk (2-0).
3/4 kills arab spear (3-0).
1st kills 2 vile muskets and a zerk (6-0).
5/5 cav killls fr mdi (7-0).
11th kill byz pike and v-cav (9-0).
2nd kills 3 v-muskets (12-0).
5/5 goes red killing roman pike (13-0).
10th goes red killing 2 legions (15-0).
3/5 cav kills roman mdi (16-0).
cav kill roman mdi (17-0).
3/4 cav kills roman mdi (18-0).
4/5 cav retreats from arabian pike.
5/5 cav kills arabian pike (19-0).
cav kills arab pike (20-0).
14th redlines killing 2 musketeers and a roman mdi (23-0).
Rush rax there as they are coming in long lines to this town.
8th kills roman mdi (24-0).
3 more cities need beakerheads. Set any taxmen I could find to beakerheads.
3/4 cav kills roman mdi goes elite (25-0).
13th kills 2 fr mdi (27-0).
16th kills 2 fr cav (29-0).
20th kills roman mdi (30-0).
9th kills v-musket and german knight (32-0).
[128-0]

IBT:
3 Az knights land at Nara and 3 english knights at West coast.
Vikes scare me with a landing party at West Coast as well, but it was an MDI.
I was afraid they had brought a zerk or two to hit the town from the sea.

1505AD:
Moved the solitary horse off the moutain in the far north as a bunch of dromons are next to it and will likely kill it. I guess we are going to get more bombardment, this time in the production area. Wait, there are three and he has 5 hp, so I will leave it and offer a diversion.
40 romans between Ponts and Cassino. Not enough units to deal with them as well as the arabs, vikes, fr right now. That is why I forced them to go that direction as they are now on an unroaded tile and are 1 move units. I will get 2 or 3 cracks at them before they can be a danger.

cavs killl 2 barbs (2-0).
3/4 and 3/5 cavs kill V-cavs at Neufchateua (4-0).
5/5 kills v-cav (5-0).
16th kills 3 roman units (8-0).
18th kill dutch cav and 2 merc at Roosendaal (11-0).
15th kills merc and cav and razes the place. Did not notice if we got any gold, but I disband 4 slaves (13-0).
The bad news is I thought the 18th had one move left to get under the 15th. It is now at 6 hp's and is at risk, sorry I could have sworn it had a move left and I cannot reach it.
Hopefully no one else can either or at least not enough to take it down.

3/4 kills v-cav (14-0).
4/4, 5/5 and 5/5 cav kill 2 AZ knights and a pike at Nara (17-0).
cav kills the v-mdi at West (18-0).
3 cavs kill 3 english knights (21-0).
found New Tikal, start a LB for now. Can be MP or switched later.
Too many cities.
Switch lugnut from rax to LB.
8th kills a very tough legion (22-0).
3/4 and 5/5 kill legions and both go redline (24-0).
So far all the legions are getting in their licks.
4/4 kills one clean and 4/5 kills one and finally a leader (26-0).
Form 21st.
2 cavs kill 2 more legions and I fill the army (28-0).
21st not at full health kills spear and mdi (30-0).
3/5 kills mdi (31-0).
13th kills 2 mdi and a legion (34-0).
5/5 mdi kills mdi (35-0).
12th kills arabian pike (36-0).
5th kills 2 mdi (38-0).
20th kills the last mdi in that stack (39-0).
19th kills 2 v-muskets and a cav (42-0).
1st kills 2 v-muskets (44-0).
4th kills 2 legions (46-0).
11th kills 2 v-muskets (48-0).
3rd kills zerk and musket (50-0).
17th kills 2 legions (52-0).
That gets rid of about 3/4 of them. Not sure how many more they have coming though.
5 towns need specialist to not riot. One I had to switch a beaker to a joker.
These all do not have MP's.
Fr is in communism and greece is in Facism. Many are in demo.
[180-0]

We may want to switch Neufchateau to a temple to get a border boost to reduce the blocking need. It may not be needed now or soon. Getting a settler under an army on that abandon site would be great as then we would have the gap closed.

Otherwise cavs were going around and getting to the trees. I cut off that route to shorten the places they could come attack. The price is that no armies were sent out to hunt and few towns could be planted.

Many workers are on the way to the capitol or there abouts. some will arrive a turn or two early as we needed 13 turns for Steam at the start.

What needs to be looked at now is the chances of getting the ToE. How many of a lead time we need to get up a good prebuild. I did not try to see where others are in the tree or how long it will take us to get there.

That depends on our path. Me I am for gettting RP, above the ToE. Rails mean so much here. Faster defense, arties to hit those ships and unts that cannot be hit now.

Infantry to defend and fast workers. The rails to boost food will really bump the umber of specialist we can employ to the point that it is more important than the TOE imo.

Anyway i am too tired now to concentrate right now.

Roster:
Greebley
NP
M60A3TTS
vmxa - Just played
ThERat - UP
markh - On Deck

ok, got it...

I agree in this game RP is much more important than anything else. After that we can check whether we can still snatch the ToE. Communism seems a good option here too and maybe we really need to fight all the way until MA...

save (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53368/GR17_1555AD.SAV)

Pre-Turn
some general information first for lurkers and the rest of the team:
we have only 96 cities so far
4 civs have steam and 2 medicine on top of that

I find to my horror that we have a mere 2 armies at the front, gentlemen, how are we going to win this if we don't raze enemy towns?

steam is more than needed, MM for more scientists and steam drop to 10 with 150 scientists

IT oh my, the bombardment really is annoying
Monte Cassino repels 2 Cavs, it's a nice kill zone I reckon
well, that's what I thought until 3 Ansars kill the musket and after one goes down, a heavily wounded knight army and the city is theirs
great start
our production is really not great as our core stinks, this game badly need communism

1.1510AD
declare war on Babylon, small and backwards though
take back Monte Cassino
defeat an Ansar and get an army, that's nice :)
defeat a landed English cav and get another MGL :dance:

kill another 13 units close to our borders, try and move 2 armies to the enemy lines while the surviving Cav army heals near Dutch border

IT immediately am dialled up by Egypt, another foe
the good thing about so many enemies, those guys actually block each other trying to invade our land
this game is really tough I can say

we get a self made army, but that city doesn't have a uni yet, that's next

2.1515AD
while the Cav army is healing, the knight army pillages Dutch horses, no more cavs from them at least
try to found a city and that actually works :)
clear a barb camp for 25 gold, we take everything we can get

defeat 29 units at our frontline, hope this will help get more armies forward

increase science to 60% and steam is down to 7 at -100gpt

IT 7 units land at our west coast
Fish Fry and Pandora's box get their fair share of bombardment again
units move in, mainly French, Byz, Vikings and hopefully the last contingent of Dutch Cavs, one steals 3 artillery

3. 1520AD/B]
try to found a city and it works again, there must be some major war out there

approach Middelburg, wait for a second army for cover to attack next turn
attack on Utrecht goes well, Cav army only yellow after taking out 2 rifles, defeat 2 more units with knight army, capture town
sell stuff and abandon it, found May Day to push our front forward

start to clear our lines and victory #6 gives us yet another MGL
defeat a total of 27 units and the 7 landed units
clear another barb camp, 25 gold

IT zzz bombardment zzz
another 12 units land near west coast :eek:
more units stream towards our land...endless supply of units it seems
Dutch show up with more Cavs, they will run dry though as I can see Middelburg produced a LB
the only fight comes in the form of a barb attack that we repel

[B]4.1525AD
while clearing the landings, get another MGL, we're one city below the limit
try to found a tundra city and succeed yet again, we're short of settlers soon
create that army and defeat the rest of the 12 landed units

lose my first unit in a long time though

kill 14 units at the front, move a 5th army towards the Dutch, start to attack Middelburg, but stop to be able to replace it

find out that the Dutch got horses from somewhere again now they lack salt though

IT Pot's n Pans also gets its share of bombardment nowour frontline gets so crowded that the AI can't really advance

5.1530AD
same thing again, we can found a city without razing one ourselves
next city gives us the usual message, thus raze Middelburg after defeating 3 rifles, gain 9 slaves
now we can found city #102

clear the front and get another MGL, that can't be converted into an army now
send the fellow back to maybe get us a uni or such stuff

clear 3 landing and lose a Cav in the process, defeat around 10 units at our front

IT this time only 3 landings but massive movement at the front

6.1535AD
this time we can't found a city, that's a real pity, got too used to that
start to fetch those 9 slaves back, I have a feeling we might not have coal in our weird land and it might just be in all that jungle
it's better to keep some slaves there
start to attack Leiden

take out a number of Dutch cavs that want to sneak in the north , 7 in total
defeat the landings and around 10 other units

IT it seems the Dutch are out of steam, I mean out of Cavs...the Vikings sort of puzzle me as they
run quite a few units back towards their land inside Dutch territory
a new city gets attacked by 3 Arabs, but all are turned into glue

7.1540AD
if only we can find the Vikings and our monetary problems might be over
they have 15k in the kitty
the usual stunt works and we have another city, in this case our MGL might well form an army
this even works a second time, we now have 104 cities and no more settler at the front

attack Leiden and defeat 4 units inside, we need to keep it as we can only found cities next turn
it seems as though the Dutch founded a city on a small Island
wait with attack on Rotterdam to next turn

defeat units around he front, trying to place our armies in the right locations, this is a real strategy game here

IT France comes with many units, the Roman footsoldiers get their first knight company (no good)
Byz are anal about Fish Fry, I guess around 20 dromons are active there now, someone should tell them it doesn't work
swiss mercs run towards Leiden, fat hope I reckon
one Ansar robs us 6 slaves, my bad

8.1545AD
the Vikings just got much richer, I guess they got some government tech, they now have 25000gold
ok, no new cities, abandon Leiden and found another city

defeat 4 units and Rotterdam is razed to the ground, armuies heavily wounded though
found Steam to push our front forward

defeat and bomb units, our army defense line is now defunct since we pushed forward very fast
need to be careful, usually the enemy does no attack our towns if there is a healthy army inside
they will just bypass

IT something is happening here as Byz suddenly removes all their dromons from Fish Fry
hold breath when steam comes up. do we have coal or don't
open city screen and we have 2 sources of coal :dance: :dance:
next is electricity at 13 turns

9.1550AD
wow, all the money just got transferred to the Greeks
Greece and Vikings both have electricity, ToE might get very tight here

start to rail and decide to go via Fyingpan to avoid all the hills and mountains

clear some units at the front

IT the Byz dromons are heading for our new front town, this ain't good as we need a healthy front

10.1555AD
founding a city works yet again...but now we got no settler at the front to settle
attack Eindhoven and almost lose an army
clear units at our front, I think quick combat is enabled, disable it for the IT

we currently have only 3 settlers, suggest to rush a few with the AI fighting somewhere

currently we are able to rail around 14 tiles/turn, hope with more slaves this can go up, but then progress so far is slow.
we need too many armies at our front, but this can't be helped
we should send additional armies to raze Dutch and then Viking towns once we can afford that

we have an army where the enemy exclusively lands, near west coast
keep it because it is tough to fight rifles with Cavs
I was able to keep the kill ratio very hight and hardly lost any unit


who likes colors?
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53368/gr171555a.jpg

the minimap
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53368/gr171555b.jpg

Good work, Vmxa and Rat. :goodjob: Getting all those free cities is a real bonus.

Good progress. Tough call on the tech. Industrialization for factories, RP for the usual reasons, and making sure TOE isn't missed.

Often I like Ind first, but we can have that wait a bit this game.

Roster:
Greebley - On Deck
NP
M60A3TTS
vmxa
ThERat - Just Played
markh - Up

A couple of towns can switch from walls to settlers and even that cannon to a settler.

I always sweat that large stack of cash moving around so tech is passed faster to others and the cash keeps out of our reach. I was hoping the vikes were tops in science and would sit on it.

That was some turn around Rat, must have been very busy.

Greebley, we need the factories that is true, but the cost will be lower by the time we come back for it, so will help. The raisl will give some extra shields to shave time off the builds.

"clear units at our front, I think quick combat is enabled, disable it for the IT"

Not sure what this means, but I had combat animations on so no battles would be missed. It mattered little as few attacks took place in the IT.

There are nine size-twelve cities in our core, and seven of them are throwing away their food production on full food boxes. That's seven free workers we need to skim off in the next few turns, and should have had a long time ago.

I normally prefer to research Industrialization after Steam Power, but I agree that we have to head directly for RP in this case.

I looks like we should head straight for TOE. The AI already have Med and Electricity - as well as Ironclads and industrialization.

I wouldn't be suprised if the AI has Infantry in the not to distant future.

On the plus side noone has started Universal Sufferage. Some civs may have mobilized. [Cannot build TOE if they have]

There are nine size-twelve cities in our core, and seven of them are throwing away their food production on full food boxes. That's seven free workers we need to skim off in the next few turns, and should have had a long time ago.

Sorry, I can't agree with that. We have had piles of workers improving tiles that will never ever get used. These workers aren't free, they add to unit costs, and that reduces cash available for upgrades and science. To just have them sitting around burning cash when they can't rail or build useful improvements is a waste IMHO. It may be excess food, but it's one less turn before that next cavalry unit becomes available. And we need every unit available in this.

now that we have steam and confirmed coal, we could skim off those workers....7 workers means 1 tile extra RR every turn for now.

I agree that Vikings might be mobilized as they don't build any wonder. The good thing is, at least they are somewhere behind Dutch and we will get them soon. if we hurry up, we can hurt them before they have infantry. We should be able to free more armies soon with RR and be able to raze and replace much more efficient than before.

I looks like we should head straight for TOE. The AI already have Med and Electricity - as well as Ironclads and industrialization.

I wouldn't be suprised if the AI has Infantry in the not to distant future.

On the plus side noone has started Universal Sufferage. Some civs may have mobilized. [Cannot build TOE if they have]

First I would have to see who has what. If they have Med and Elec, but not Communism nor Nat, nor Ind, they are not going to pass those up to get Sci Meth.

If they had most of those as well, then we have no chance anyway to beat them to ToE.

Second, if we time out a solid prebuild and get get Sci Meth in time, we are golden. It is rare for an Emperor AI at war all time time to pull off ToE.

Finally, I am not sure we will do better by delaying RP. Rails will let us make up some time in research with the ability to have more food and support more scientist.

Rails will help get units out and those factories up with the extra shields.

Not to mention the use of infantry will let us get more aggressive. No need to cover those slow move cats and the ability to send out worker parties under infantry. They can be used to cover damages units, instead of armies.

To cut off certain tiles and force units around them, instead of armies.

As to the workers, it is a double edged sword. I see merit in skimming them, but I do not like to do it in towns that are my production towns. Especially when I cannot afford the extra support.

I am ambivalent about it as it does help get the rails up, so I would not oppose it. I just do not do it myself. Now if I have the free support, then by all means I would do it.

Sorry, I can't agree with that. We have had piles of workers improving tiles that will never ever get used. These workers aren't free, they add to unit costs, and that reduces cash available for upgrades and science. To just have them sitting around burning cash when they can't rail or build useful improvements is a waste IMHO. It may be excess food, but it's one less turn before that next cavalry unit becomes available. And we need every unit available in this.

In cases when skimmed workers aren't needed to work, they can be merged into other cities. Our position would look considerably better with an extra twenty pop points distributed amongst the outer-core cities in the arc from Bengal to Quirigua. There's also the valuable trick of producing a settler quickly in a core town, and replacing the lost population immediately with merges.

We all know that population is power in Civ III. A non-skimming policy which wastes a large amount of population by the end of the game cannot be right.

I got it. Looks like a tough ride.

In cases when skimmed workers aren't needed to work, they can be merged into other cities. Our position would look considerably better with an extra twenty pop points distributed amongst the outer-core cities in the arc from Bengal to Quirigua. There's also the valuable trick of producing a settler quickly in a core town, and replacing the lost population immediately with merges.

We all know that population is power in Civ III. A non-skimming policy which wastes a large amount of population by the end of the game cannot be right.

I agree with NP on this one - now that we have rails, doubly so.

I also feel that building up worker numbers before you get rails is a good idea. It costs you a bit of cash for a short time, but once you are there you rail quickly and more than make up for it.

I like making or aquiring workers prior to rails. Once I have that tech, I am not so inclined. This is more so in this game as we will not be adding them into any towns for a very very long time.

They will add to the cost, which is needed for the troops. Not sure if they wil be offset in any real way, as we will not gain gold from their labor.

We cannot count on adding in a large number of town in a real hurry. It requires the AI to raze towns and that may not continue.

In short once you have the tech, I prefer to keep those production centers making units. Now any max cap cities that are taking 12 or more turns to get out a cav can be used. Especially if they can get that town on a break point for production of cavs (10, 15, 20 net).

Popping 1 pop off a max food town is worthwhile:
Taking a single turn to build a worker gains more units. You lose a turns production building the worker and one turn with only 11 pop. You gain more shields back though when that worker improves tiles enough that you will easy catch up and surpass the shields from one turn of production. The worker pays for itself in about 20 turns for a core city and by 50 has gotten 1 or 2 more units that you wouldn't have gotten otherwise - I suspect it will take 50 turns to have our core railed.

The gold per turn cost of the worker can also be offset if you improve corrupt cities. Spend the 6 turns irrigating 2 grasslands and you can gain another scientist for 3 beakers per turn for a net gain of +2 commerce per turn.

So in general the more workers the faster you will reach full railing which means core cities have +12 shields and corrupt towns have more food = more science. Only if the short term needs are more important than the medium turn are workers not worthwhile.

There probably is a limit where more workers don't help much - but I don't think we are there. If you could improve all tiles you are working in 30 turns then more workers might not be worthwhile. In our case I suspect it will take much longer than 30 turns.

There is also a max speed to building workers - you don't want to shrink core cities and corrupt cities take time to build them. This is why I like building up a good number when rails are getting close. Sure its extra unit costs for a few turn-sets, but by making scientists and improving the core you easily gain that gold back plus add shields as well.

The problem with the corrupt towns issue is you cannot get workers to them from the core in a hurry, until we get some rails. This is why I like to do as you say, make those workers while researching Steam, so they are ready then.

So in general the more workers the faster you will reach full railing which means core cities have +12 shields and corrupt towns have more food = more science. Only if the short term needs are more important than the medium turn are workers not worthwhile.

This wasn't a question of workers for railing, it was NPs assertion that we should be skimming workers well before rail. I simply stand by my statement that until they have something meaningful to do, native workers are a cost that limit our ability to upgrade and research.

In any case, you can take note that we had 14 native workers in my last save and the number is exactly the same 2 players later, even with rail. ;)

During my set, I did not churn out any workers for 3 reasons

1. unit cost is already high at around 40-50gpt
2. we needed more units, badly that is
3. it was not clear whether we actually have coal and without coal, workers have nothing meaningful to do.

With #3 changed, we can try and skim off workers, I'd say settlers are far higher uo in the list of priorities and if we keep on razing towns, we can gain slaves much faster as well. Currently there is a small stack of 9 slaves escorted back and will reach our frontline next turn.

That ecsort duty can soon be taken over by infantry, that will let us keep a lot more slaves than before.

With us owning this much of the lands and access to that much -no man's land - the chance off getting coal was extremely close to 100 percent. We have 8 sources if we wanted to.

I think I have increased worker count on my turn after we get rails in every SG that wasn't nearly over. I doubt this game will be an exception. :p :D

Such a huge empire to manage, amidst AW. I'm awed by your (everyone) ability to focus, micromanage and still beat everyone up :hatsoff:

Thanks for the compliment. :cool: It's always good to hear from lurkers.

I'm glad we've had a productive debate about worker skimming. I'll just repeat my point that if there's really nothing useful for skimmed workers to do, they can virtually always be profitably merged somewhere. If there's one game mechanic which even excellent players tend to underuse, I think merging is it.

There is one thing that would prevent useful merging...with our current lux deficit, there are some towns that can not grow at all due to unhappiness. This is a serious issue really.

There are a few of them needing to employ clowns in order not to shrink. Merging will be more useful once we can employ more specialsts due to railed grass etc...all that plain land is really bad for us

Thanks for the compliment. :cool: It's always good to hear from lurkers.

I'm glad we've had a productive debate about worker skimming. I'll just repeat my point that if there's really nothing useful for skimmed workers to do, they can virtually always be profitably merged somewhere. If there's one game mechanic which even excellent players tend to underuse, I think merging is it.


Thanks for coming over to my side. :D Or did I just go to yours? :confused:

I agree fully that merging workers would be an appropriate use for skimmed workers. I merged close to 300 in the Celts AW game. None were built in my set because Greebley's thought prior to that was not to merge any. Naturally I was trying to be considerate of our great leader's opinion. But in the end merging some of the natives is precisely what I did to keep our budget in line as more cav support was required.

But ThERat is right too about the happiness issue. Maybe we can get an army or two on scouting to not just disconnect AI resources, but find another lux. We sure need it.

On map of this size, I suspect most just do not want to add the extra work to go around and find optimal places to add workers. If you do not have rails you will have to try to rememebr what you have already set in motion as they will not even get to the town for some time.

The other thing that is not used much is planting forest to chop them in totally corrupt towns to speed up that build. Again, this would require more micromanagement, while you already have a 150 or 200 battles to deal with and tons of other workers task.

I seriously doubt we will find any more luxuries on our own continent. There is a relation between the number of civs on a continent and the number of lux. The relationship doesn't seem to be exact so another lux is possible, but given the number of civs on our continent, the odds are fairly strongly against finding another.

We have to go elsewhere to get another lux I expect.

My statement about not merging workers wasn't supposed to stop skimming and merging. My real hope was to have a goodly number of workers ready when we got rails which didn't happen. I would have been more happy if we had 4x the number of native workers that we currently have so we can get the rail line up quickly and start improving core and science towns.

Note that improving grassland tiles can also fix happiness issues mentioned. Fewer citizens supporting more scientists means less unhappiness. Not that we want to merge until we get our rails up and running.

Merging is going to be so far off for us. We will be busy railing for a very long time. We maybe could slip in a one here and there for a good break point, but we have more work than we can get done.

I suspect you are correct we would need a big break to find another lux on this landmass. Worse though is any invasion could easily face bombers at this rate.

The other thing that is not used much is planting forest to chop them in totally corrupt towns to speed up that build. Again, this would require more micromanagement, while you already have a 150 or 200 battles to deal with and tons of other workers task.

Yes, this is an excellent technique but most players are never going to use it consistently. It's particularly useful as a way of getting transports built in distant ports late in the game, when (as so ridiculously happens) ground forces using rails have far outrun the navy.

I am having computer issues - my comp has started running so slow I can't do anything on it at all. NP, If markh finishes before I post that I am ok, then go ahead and take the game. Hopefully, I will have something by the time you finish even if I have to purchase a new machine.

I can post at work like I am doing now - but not on weekends.

If anyone knows of solutions/things to try as to why the comp is running slowly, I will read the forum later today. Note that this effect happens in safe mode, so I am concerned about the hardware itself - though I am not sure if a program/virus could be sneaky enough to affect safe mode.

I had many issues with computers, but this is something weird, running slow even in safe mode...did you run dxdiag or other stuff to check your hardware?

That is something I would like to try - testing out all the hardware. A check disk ran ok, but I haven't done a full diagnostics yet.

I also looked at the web and there are "registry fixer" programs that I might try (if I can get a copy to my computer and if I can get it to run). Not sure how much of the registry is used in safe mode (if any). Its going to be a boring weekend I expect watching my comp not do anything or do it at glacial speed.

hope you can solve this issue fast...computers can be damn annoying if they don't do what they are supposed to do :mad:

Spyware can make things run slow, just not sure if safe mode would affect that ro not. If you have the OS disk as a last resort I would format the HD and start from scratch.

Run an antivirus and antispyware app agaisnt any files you copy off before you resotre them. I had to do that for my friend once, not a big deal for me as I have done many installs from scratch. Just time comsuming.

NP, If markh finishes before I post that I am ok, then go ahead and take the game.

OK, I'll do that if necessary. Good luck with your problem.

Greebley, have you tried running SpyBot Search & Destroy or a similar program? It's fixed my machine when it started running slowly. Here's a link to the download site, just in case you don't have it already. http://www.safer-networking.org/en/index.html

Good luck!!!

markh, any progress so far?

IBT : some landings at the usual spot

1) 1560AD : raze Eindhoven,but there is no settler available to settle a new city

IBT : almost lose an MDI army to dromon attacks
no landings this time

2) 1565AD : we have a direct connection to the front by train, cleaning up the mess there is easier
the front turns into a more blueish colour. I like it.

There are just a few Roman and Dutch units left. This will give us room to expand again.
Although we have to find some razeable cities first. There is only one in view.

found New Piedras Negras

IBT : All dromons are moving out of our waters

Alexander starts Universal Suffrage

3) 1570AD : all front cities are connected to the railroad system, so shuffling of cannons, trebs, acts is very comfortable now
start railing in the core

IBT : the usual annoying frigate bombarding
it is getting more quiet at the front now, just a few new units arrive

4) 1575AD : as the front is a little more quiet I release some cav armies to search for enemy cities.
There is even not enough work for our bombarding units this turn

IBT : lose a cav army on city defense. Did not notice that there was a cav in range.
New landings at Nara

5) 1580AD : clear the landing, that area is almost connected to the railroad system, too
raze Groningen, found New Uaxactun

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/47099/GR17_1580AD.zip

Well my computer is running incredibly slowly but it is running. I am going to give it a try - I managed to start civ.

I got it for now at least.

1575AD : as the front is a little more quiet I release some cav armies to search for enemy cities.

Excellent--we definitely needed to do this. :goodjob:

I got it for now at least.

OK, noted.

After looking at the save, I've come around to Greebley's opinion that we should head directly for SciMeth/ToE, starting a pre-build right now. We can survive without infantry and artillery for the moment, since we aren't under too much pressure. OTOH, this has very much the look of a game in which we could be beaten by the UN if we don't get ahead in tech and build it ourselves.

with Greeks on the other continent and starting US, I agree we should head for sci methods just to be safe to grab ToE. We can't afford to miss that and we don't want to face bombers when we land on their continent

We are going to face bombers anyway. If we wanted the ToE so bad, why not calculate the timing and and get the pre up in time? we are only talking about one extra tech (RP).

It only beocmes a problem if you try to do RP and IND before Sci Meth, if at all. Give me the choce of RP or IND in this type of game and I will wait a bit for the extra production. Won;t need it as bad with inf/art and faster workers.

I am happy with or without the ToE as it will not break the game either way.

The UN is no threat. When was the last time you saw the AI build it first? They do not even beat you to in Sid games. You simply steal as many techs as you need to get there when they do and use your pre to beat them to it.

We would stop losing some of these armies, if we have infantry. We could be more aggrssive with workers and not lose them or need armies to cover them with infantry.

With arties, slowing down frigaes AND we save armies again and make cavs useful or more useful as we can hit units farther away and kill them on the cheap.

I had socres of units two tiles away and could not ping them, unless either I covered the cats or put them at risk. Many times neither was an option as they could not move in range.

I have played to 1620 and should post tomorrow.

I went for the Prebuild - We are behind in science and so I don't want to miss TOE - both because it boosts the AI two techs and costs us the two most expensive techs (atom theory, Electronics - both are more expensive than tank tech IIRC)if we miss it. I think with TOE we will be on par with the AI around the modern Era tech wise - without I think we will be having to fight an AI that has Mech Inf 2 techs earlier while we were 2 techs behind.

No Sapahi - English destroyed Otto.

I am hoping we can land on the other continent before the AI has tanks - I think it is doable if we deny the AI TOE and continue to make progress vs the AI on our continent.

BTW, there is a size 1 island - so we may want Marines - and Espionage when we can get it in 8-10 turns for the two needed techs (i.e. more science farms are needed) - I think we will be able to afford to do this.

We have 23 turns on the prebuild (med in 7, RP would be 16 turns, SM should be 16 or less turns. Though we are running a big deficit and may not be able to maintain it (OTOH, with rails our science farms can grow faster).

We now have between 50 and 60 workers, IIRC - about double. I have been building them in corrupt towns along with settlers (plus the free workers from max food cities).

That sounds good.

[The rest of this is a cross-post with Greebley, and addresses Vmxa's post.]

I agree of course that various tactical problems will be easier when we have infantry and artillery, but those aren't game-breaking issues, whereas the UN can be. Obviously we've had different experiences, but I don't think a UN loss can simply be dismissed as a danger in AW. In an earlier Greebley game as the Persians, which seemed much more safely won than this one does, it very nearly happened to us.

I will not forget that made rush to prevent the UN against Persia that time. UN and space can be real threats if one of the AI's manages to get very big

Progress sounds good, Greebley

The one thing I agree with is that it does not matter which way we go, we will not lose. As to landing before tanks, I don't see how the ToE will affect that one way or the other.

If we pop it and and grab AT and Elec, the Ai will just not research those, until later. There by actually getting towards tanks sooner. I am dubious of our chances to land before tanks in any case.

Anyway it is now a dead horse, so I will stop beating it.

MMed electricity to 6 turns though we are at a deficit and may take 7 turns anyway.
Set builds with 12 or less shields to workers. We have more, but not enough yet I don't think. I might also want a road to the front line which will take many workers.

IBT: Bombardment that we all love to hate or something like that. No attacks that I see.

1585 AD: I am going to MM Copan for TOE. That means I will improve this town first for maximum shields.

IBT: Landing in the normal spot.

1590 AD: Copan is max shields now with 34 shields and is prebuilding TOE. We need to get Sci Method in 29 turns

1595 AD: Driving the enemy back. We lose a Cav or two. We get a Leader (cav army).

1600 AD: Attack Amsterdam. It has Pyramids so we are keeping it - this should be interesting to try to hold...
Attack and Capture (for now) Ollantaytambo. Abandon new Copan

IBT: Ottomans have been destroyed by English
Persians are building US. I am glad I started the TOE build.

1605 AD: Ollantaytambo is Abandoned after the Cav Armies move. I abandon another to make a forward town
I try to protect Amsterdam but am ran out of Armies.
Lose an almost healthy army trying to kill a healthy Rifle.

1610 AD: Amsterdam now takes 2 turns to get to for Cavalry(step into no road, step back on road, step into our lands) since I ringed it at one out.
Capture and abandon Corihurayachina from the Byzantine. They are up north BTW. Build a new town.
Capture Arnhem (A dutch core city near Amsterdam) - keeping it in case it is useful for us.
Another Leader for an Army
Cutting roads to advance means a slow game - long pauses - but I don't think we can get a "front" without it even doing so we are stretched thin. Need more Armies...
Our third leader of the turnset and 2nd this turn We build an Army that will have 3 elite*
BTW, I have found a coast due east and I think only the Byz are north of it, but am not sure. I sometimes see Vikings sort of northish.

IBT: We get Electricty and start for Medicine to get TOE. It should take 20 turns or so (Med in 9) and RP is a long 16 turns and won't work with the pre-build I think we want to go for Hoover - the techs (electronics and At Theory) are the most expensive and I see this going on to the modern Era - so while getting Ind and RP would be tempting, it puts us farther behind in tech since we would then have to get those two tech that are so expensive. Also getting Hoover really boosts production that we always need when invading.

1615 AD: Capture Breda, Maastricht, and Holward (Dutch). Find a size 1 Dutch Island. That is not good. It means we can't kill off the Dutch and have to raze all those nice towns we have capture (excepting the Pyramids of course). Even worse the newest size 3 army went out on a boat thinking it could land - If a boat is in range we could lose the Army. I was planning on landing to get off the boat.
Abandon Holward - Army is injured. Note that I am hurrying Settlers (via catapult disband) to try to shrink Amsterdam faster.
Abandon The Hague and Arnem

Oh Viking do seem to be south along with the Germans (a new civ sending units), French, Rome, and Dutch.
Since I sold lots of buildings I can raise Science to 50% and Med in 8 - Actually it Arabian units not Viking to the north - I bet they are up there somewhere.

IBT: Crud - Amsterdam deposed us. We lose some Regular and Obsolete units. I was hoping to get the settler built to drop the size by 2 but no such luck.
Our Army survived and can land again. Yay!

1620 AD: We capture Amsterdam back. It reduced 2 anyway (3 after we capture it) - they drafted a dude.
Capture andahuaylas (Byzantine) and Abandon after the Army moves.
Razed Delft, Abandon Maastrict and Breda and replace them
Raze Bremen ( German -near Breda).
Another Leader - another yay!
I moved out the units of one town so that the bombardment would switch to the other city.

IBT: We spot the first Infantry - Viking Sure enough the ships all switch to the other city with units in it. Even better the ships stop next to shore and we will be able to bombard them and send them all home.


1625 AD: Den Helder (Dutch) captured so we can get our injured army home and then Abandoned.
Another leader - this time from an MDI We are up to 29 armies.

Notes:
France and Vikings have Cavalry. Byzantines had knights but no longer have Salt or Iron (i.e. no fast units past horses). I have not seen fast Arab units though they have Horses but no Salt so Knights are possible. Romans could build Cavalry, but I haven't seen any fast units from them yet. Germany has no Horses so no fasts units. Dutch have lost Salt - building mostly Rifles now.

I have been MM'ing - and building rails in towns with the "wrong number of shields". I haven't yet started converting irrigated grasslands to mines which we will want to do in our core. A decent amount of our core is improved

Medicine in 5 and then SM - our odds on TOE seem reasonable to me - two civs have started US, but we started our preturn in a super high shield town not that much later.. After that RP I think - or Industrialization.

We are up to 61 workers - I think we finally have a decent number. There are still towns on workers, the next player can choose whether we do have enough and if so - what to change the towns to. Looks like we need more settlers. There are 3 near the capitol and a 3 or 4 in field. I had turned off production when I had lots, but finding the Dutch couldn't be eliminated meant I didn't keep the cities I wanted to and had to replace them.

Its really too bad as replacing the Dutch cities cost us tons of research beakers - grabbing big cities is how to really jump up research by a hundred (or hundreds in some cases) beakers. I am hoping we can keep German (and other civs) cities - it would really help us catch up again in research - ready made towns of large size with aquaducts is the key to high research. Starting from scratch adds very much less.

Here is a picture of the Netherlands ex-core and our replacement cities. Note that Germany is to the south and they don't have horses. I have not cut all routes down south yet (I didn't prioritize due to Germany's lack of fast units).

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a251/Greebley/GR17_AD1625.jpg

The following is the rest of our front. I am slightly worried about Tikal, it needs better Cavalry defense I think.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a251/Greebley/GR17_AD1625a.jpg

Here is the Byzantine campaign. Given the hindsight of knowing where all the civs are, it would have been better to go for Arabia and Byzantine in the north first (with more armies) The front line will be much shorter if we eliminated them and could make a line straight across owning all lands to the north.

The iron in this picture only shows up in Z mode. Almost a cheat in that you can see under the darkness. I think they could have programmed that better.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a251/Greebley/GR17_AD1625b.jpg

The Save (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/14765/GR17_1625AD.SAV)

The one thing I agree with is that it does not matter which way we go, we will not lose. As to landing before tanks, I don't see how the ToE will affect that one way or the other.

If we pop it and and grab AT and Elec, the Ai will just not research those, until later. There by actually getting towards tanks sooner. I am dubious of our chances to land before tanks in any case.

Anyway it is now a dead horse, so I will stop beating it.

If the AI grabs TOE, then it usually an AI in the lead techwise. They get two more techs and will amost certainly grab two techs toward tanks - that means they get tanks maybe 30 turns earlier (assuming 15 turns for later techs - it might be only 20 turns if they are getting techs in 10). I am estimating how long it takes us to take out the rest of the island, but given their position, if they get tanks 30 or 20 turns earlier we have little chance of getting to their shores before they do. With 20 or 30 extra turns we have a chance of getting there first.

I do not see why you think they will avoid AT and Elec if we get it. As I understand the post on AI tech choices the techs will take fewer turns to research and thus be more likely to be chosen - not less. Its been a while since I read that post though. In any case, it makes little difference - the AI is fairly random in their tech choices with techs with units and govts being most likely. I don't think much changes the chances - the only factor I know about is number of turns to get a tech.

Roster:
Greebley - Just Played
NP - Up
M60A3TTS - On Deck
vmxa
ThERat
markh

Fine progress. :goodjob:

I've got it. Thanks for the extensive briefing on the situation.

I do not see why you think they will avoid AT and Elec if we get it. As I understand the post on AI tech choices the techs will take fewer turns to research and thus be more likely to be chosen - not less. Its been a while since I read that post though. In any case, it makes little difference - the AI is fairly random in their tech choices with techs with units and govts being most likely. I don't think much changes the chances - the only factor I know about is number of turns to get a tech.

They will not research AT/Elec, because the wonder is already gone. They will go on the other lines and come back later. So would you. What is the value of Elec to them with no Hoovers? They will have coal plants and be happy, same as you would.

The discount for second research is not going to make AT or Elec very attarctive. Fourth and later will just trade for it as the AI to Ai discount is a better deal.

I really don't care about the price of techs after RP. I will get them eventually and a turn or two savings does not matter much as it is about taking towns anyway.

Well at least about hurting them and that is usually the best way. I just want to get armies and let them do what they do best. In Emperor AW games, the Ai struggles to even get to the modern age, unless the the map is favorable to them, such as lots of invasion required.

If it wasn't so slow to navigate, I would try to find the strategy article on how the AI chooses tech. You are giving it much more intelligence than it has - though a completed hoover might matter somewhat for electronics - I don't fully remember if they tested that. I do know that At Theory is definitely not going to change odds based on hoover.

regardless of the tech path, the AI has to go for AT/electronics eventually and that's just keeping them slower.
The issue here is that most likely all those overseas AI's are democracies and that keeps their research pretty high up. The aim is always to get them to switch to fascism and throw away their research.

Nice progress, Greebley, the game looks huge and our continent indeed is very big...

Could we sneak in a frigate or 2 to simply check out the water and find out where the AI is hiding overseas?

Since AT and Electronics gets us to Modern Armor faster, I'm good with that path. Enough Cav armies with a supporting cast will always deal with AI tank threats.