I'm just beginning in the game, and would like to hear a little bit about these three races regarding their possibilities for magical dominance.

So the Wiki says the Amurites have the world's best mages, while the Grigori are the best at sorcery and the Sheaim are the game's dominant summoners. It would appear to me, offhand, that the Grigori's magical horizons are focussed more towards the early game, as they are relying on Adventurers and great people gas out towards the later game. Furthermore, the Grigori are obviously not going to have divine mages, so this makes them a little less flexible (and I really want the ability to make flesh golems to get around national unit limited numbers).

Amurites seem like they will eventually have the most strong mages via their Cave, and I'm intrigued by their archer/mage as well (particularly with the Arcane trait aiding a combat unit). I'm a little bit less thrilled by their leader picks, since Organized doesn't appeal to me much but I'd definitely want Arcane for them. However, their hero's ability to turn everyone into a tiny necromancer seems exceptionally potent, so that's a trade up as far as I am concerned.

Sheaim - Well, Summoner and Arcane together are amazing, but it looks to me like the Sheaim, between their desired religious picks and exceptionally powerful high end summoner unit, are a late game dominant nation. Not that I have a problem with that, I'm just trying to sort them out from the other two.

Also - besides the ability to have Arcane, what makes the Sheaim any better summoners than the Balseraphs until their Eaters of Dreams come out?

One nice feature of the Sheaim is that they can get mage-equivalent units (Planar Gate + Mage Guild = Moebius Witch) without researching Sorcery, allowing them to go for conjurers without delaying fireballs and such. The same planar gates also give them small numbers of powerful fighting units that can guard conjurers - and once the late-game hits, an Eater of Dreams in a city can wipe out armies alone. The main weakness of the Sheaim I can see would be large forces of axemen or the like before conjurers come into play (Nightmares are most excellent defenders.)



The Grigori are, as you say, powerful in the early-game, both due to twincasting heroes and the ability to go directly for the Good Stuff (i.e. sorcery) without racing for religions. Do not, however, underestimate their late game power: Each adventurer archmage will be as powerful as two regular archmages, when it comes to pure offensive damage output. The weakness here is the fact that the heroes, while perhaps numerous, are in no way expendable. Lose one, and you'll need to pop another adventurer to fill its shoes, which means you'll have one less for other roles.

The Amurites, now... Weak leader traits, single-use UU ability of questionable utility, but the free experience makes up for it. No real weakness, here, excepting perhaps their need for many mana nodes to boost their casters.

Finally, the challengers: Keelyn makes a neat substitute for Tebryn, with easier expansion and many handy non-arcane units, Great for a game not quite so focused on summoning.

Beeri Brawl is my personal choice, with the absolutely wonderful traits of Arcane and Financial, and the fact that he can field very decent melee units at Construction - freeing up the rest of his tech prioritizing for magic, only picking up iron working when Empower V wood golems go obsolete (or barnaxus dies...)

Don't rule out the Calabim, either. Even though they don't get unique mages or summoners and none of their leaders are Arcane, vampires bridge the gap between melee and arcane units very nicely (Vampire Lords get Sorcery AND Summoning :eek:). And unlike the Grigori, their super-mages aren't tied to GPP, they can extend their mage's XP beyond 100 and they can get a religion (flesh golems, anyone?).

Also - besides the ability to have Arcane, what makes the Sheaim any better summoners than the Balseraphs until their Eaters of Dreams come out?Assuming you mean Keelyn, nothing really, she is your one other choice for a summoner trait leader.
you guys pretty much have covered the basics. Amurites also get an assassain which can cast escape, and Govannon gives you one extra Archmage and a whole lot of free (limited) adepts.

ok , for an easy to read breakdown ....

grigori - mid to late game dominance as mages and archmages, the ability to twincast is hard to argue as well as thier potential for multiple realm magics (fire+twincast+staff)

shiam - far and away nothing inthe game can rival the power of the eater of souls

calabim - odds are dead on (pun?hehe) that you will have vampiric necromancers and all that that entails. calabim also have teh easiest way to replace the loss of any archmage or summoner.

kaelyn(sp) - hands down by far the best druids and decent archmages/summoners

amurites - decent mages and archmages , but the xp bonus can be difficult to achieve. they do however have the firebows which are remarkably one of the best units in the game.

barbarians - both the clan and dovellio have a HUGE advantage in mid game summoning with the chaos sphere. having peace with barbarians and the ability to summon chaos marauders ( chance of becomeing perm rampageing barbars ) is a considerable boost.

now , all that being said , for arcane power i have to mention the religions a little bit.

overlords - the single most powerful mage in the game couple with the ability to summon the kraken is fearsome.

ashen veil - fear the ritualists , these are the single most powerful unit you can find for the tiers that they command power. they command death , choas , and fire and do it in the realms of summoning and arcane . this allows them to xp faster then anything short of calabim and have 2 upgrade paths allowing for a total of 6 casters cpable of 3rd level spells. (in the hands of anyone with the summoning trait its frightening).

GL , hoep it helps....

And may I say: Why is Organized considered weak? It is my favorite trait- less civic upkeep is HUGE in late game, and lets you run military state, public healers and schoolarship at half cost, half priced courthouses are nice, and you get Command Post building for Great General GPP and +2 XP.

Organized, in a vacuum, is a good trait.

Unfortunately - it is considered weak because just about every other trait is better.

In the early game - Organized does nothing, or next to nothing, and in the late game it is strong; but because all of the other traits are able to get you to the late game in such a strong position that being organized isn't necessary.

Remember: it isn't whether a trait is strong or not, it is whether it is strong relative to the other traits.

Loads of good responses. Let me try to respond to all, although if anyone posts while I'm posting don't take it personal.

TheJopa - Organized (at least in Vanilla Civ, I haven't played enough FfH to know yet) peaks a little late for me and works best when you're using high upkeep civics. That's fine, but not all high upkeep Civics are necessarily the best, or at least not the best for all things - I much preferred Spiritual and the ability to move rapidly between civics to Organized and the pressure to use high cost civics. Financial, IMO, is also helpful much earlier and allows greater flexibility. Again, though, that's Civ4 talk, and I am more than willing to believe I'm making bad assumptions.

Daladinn: I assume you're using Runes with Balseraphs to get Druids? I'd think they'd want to go Octopus to grab more slaves for their culture war (at least, it's recommended in the wiki). And what makes the Balseraph Druids so potent?

What makes the Amurite mages only decent compared to other nations?

Don't the Grigori crap out in the late game when their GPs stop coming with any frequency and you've started to build infrastructure options which reduce your chances for more adventurers when a GP does appear?

On the surface of things, I'd thing Summoner would be vastly more useful than Barbarian neutrality for the Chaos Marauders. Getting it x3 as far away from you all the time, and having it turn hostile 20% seems much better to me than 1/3 as far and neutral 20%.

Nikis-Knight: The flavor text for Sheaim seems much more Arcane heavy, while Balseraphs focus on their culture war add ons (although I missed the Planar Gate exclusivity since it's not listed under Sheaim in the wiki). If the have rough magical parity in the early-late mid game, then the wiki is a little deceptive.

Mr Underhill - I never rule out Vampires in any game (not even as LA Ulm), but you're right that I wasn't considering them as contenders for the magical big boys. Do you favor Alexis or Flauros?

I haven't played them much yet, either, and so I haven't put all the pieces together, but I am intrigued by their "endless loop" option, which seems like it could propel them rapidly into total dominance (of course, it looks like getting all those pieces together would be quite a hassle and require some non-culturally optimal pieces).

BCalchet - Luichirp is the only good nation which seems really appealing to me, and from all reports they are currently a bit hamstrung by the difficulty of their all-important hero has in healing in the early game. Tips and tricks?

Amurites also get an assassain which can cast escape, and Govannon gives you one extra Archmage and a whole lot of free (limited) adepts.

Every Amurite unit can cast escape, eventually, so Chanters are nothing special. Govannan also isn't marked as Hero (which I've never heard back if this is intentional or a bug) so is denied both Twincast and Heroic Strength. Other than his training, Hemah (available at the exact same tech level) is far better as a straight up combat unit.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Wizards yet. Their only specialness is a one time only two-casts-in-one-turn. After it's used, it needs to be restored in the same fashion any mage would.

Although I've been playing mostly Amurite, I've been silent hoping reworkings were coming.

Don't the Grigori crap out in the late game when their GPs stop coming with any frequency and you've started to build infrastructure options which reduce your chances for more adventurers when a GP does appear?You can only have 3 archmages and 3 summoners; it's not hard to get 6 adventurers, and with hero, they each can get twincast. I don't think you could possibly say they crap out.

Nikis-Knight: The flavor text for Sheaim seems much more Arcane heavy, while Balseraphs focus on their culture war add ons (although I missed the Planar Gate exclusivity since it's not listed under Sheaim in the wiki). If the have rough magical parity in the early-late mid game, then the wiki is a little deceptive. Not really; in addition to summoning, the Sheaim get they mobius witches, and late game, as was said, Eaters can totally rule. (Capture a city, destroy the population with summoning Pit Beasts, and the Pit Beasts can probably make it to the next enemy city before expiring.) And Keelyn does get the other Balseraph's culture special abilities.

Mr Underhill - I never rule out Vampires in any game (not even as LA Ulm), but you're right that I wasn't considering them as contenders for the magical big boys. Do you favor Alexis or Flauros?

They both have their strong points, but I've been favoring Alexis lately.

The flavor text for Sheaim seems much more Arcane heavy, while Balseraphs focus on their culture war add ons (although I missed the Planar Gate exclusivity since it's not listed under Sheaim in the wiki). If the have rough magical parity in the early-late mid game, then the wiki is a little deceptive.

Ah, I think that's partly my fault, as I wrote the original Balseraph wiki entry (which eventually made it into the game; thanks, Kael! :D) and didn't consider the Balseraphs as magic users when I wrote it. I don't think Keelyn was even a leader at the time.

On the surface of things, I'd thing Summoner would be vastly more useful than Barbarian neutrality for the Chaos Marauders. Getting it x3 as far away from you all the time, and having it turn hostile 20% seems much better to me than 1/3 as far and neutral 20%.

Ah, but you see that (AFAIK) that the chaos marauder will stay around until they die or become barb. Thus for the barb nations they are permanent summons with an infinite amount for most porpuses. (except controlled by your ally)

ok some points that i thought i would not have to spell out to people...

grigori -
first off necromancy is a common choice for your 4-6th mages and HIGHLY reccomended, this allows you to have 6 archmage heros
2nd , have you counted the number of meteors that 1 well trained grigori hero archmage can drop on you at 1 time? every normal casting gives your 3 , a twincast gives you 6 , if you get the magestaff promo , you can get 12 every other turn, 12 typically levels a city. (another reason i asked for change on the fireball/meteor model).
3rd , the grigori never really crap out late game , the heros you have just keep getting better (much more so if they are mages) and they slowly get mroe and more. what i would advise is also looking at all the buildings that they can get that add either generically to the GPP percentage or to adventurers specifically. and NEVER build wonders , they are NEVER worth it with grigori.

as for the balseraphs(sp)...
please look into the upgrade paths to get to druids and the types of magic taht they gain , you would be pleasently supprised.

as for the barbarians .....
lets keep in mind that summoners are not limited to 3 per civ , so pumping out and intense stream of them so taht every city keeps increasing the number available and casting just to let out wandering chaos mauraders is a REALLY fun tactic. and i have to mention with embers it works GREAT as a supplement to barrows.

as far as vampires .....
currently vampires are completely broken as a civ , they are totally unstoppable and honestly need to be reworked for viability. i think currently keal and co has had no one playtesting the corect strats to point this out. once you get used to playing as the vamps it becomes painfully obvious who the stonger leader is ... odds are its not the one you have been playing.

the only and best advise i can give for the gnomes or dwarfs is simple .... overwhelm them with numbers. for the luchurp , you can field any number of golems for free. honestly both are very straight forward.

Correct me if I a wrong because this is coming back from some time ago but can't you disband summoned units so long as its not the last turn? That would mean its hands down better to be a summoner and bring in Chaos Marauders since you get them for 2x as along and 0% chance of revolt.

ok, let me try this from different perepective ...

when it comes to chaos mauraders , both summoning AND peace with the barbarians are very good traits to have.

with summoning you can get your chaos mauraders a total move of 12 from where you cast them ... and i highly recomend keeping them moving forward. the nice thing about this also is that each and every conjurer you have can have 3 in play at any one time.the trick here is in logistics , you need them far enough away so that they dont turn on your conjurors and you can use your next set to kill the rogues.

with the peace with barbarians, you can stay at "peace" with your enemies and still cause considerable damage. think if you have a small stack of 10 in your capitol. this gives you good odds to get 2 barbarian mauraders every turn. these will of course "pop" outside your cultural borders and proceed to wreck havok on the unwary.

for both techniques its all a matter of timing

the 2nd part of the barbarian strat is taht it synergizes very well with the roving dead from the barrows and everyting involved in that tactic.

ok some points that i thought i would not have to spell out to people...


Well, you gotta spell them out to me, because I've just started to play the game several days ago and have no idea what half the techs do, much less any recommended upgrade paths, etc. I mean, you obviously don't HAVE to spell them out, but you can't really expect me to know them. It's cool if you think I should play more and ask questions less - I'd do so, but the wiki, while nicely put together, still /= a manual.

That said - can't anyone with the right religion pick up unlimited archmages through flesh golems? I mean, they aren't archmages anymore, but they have all the same promotions of an archmage + those of whatever other unit you blend in (another spellcaster, presumably). If you have 6 flesh golems / 3 archmages / 3 liches you're better off than 6 twincasting Grigori because you can cast 12 different spells/round rather than 6 spells doubled, and after that you're just getting better and better.

I'm partial to a vampiric Hemah.

And unlike the Grigori, their super-mages aren't tied to GPP, they can extend their mage's XP beyond 100 and they can get a religion (flesh golems, anyone?).

Death magic casting, lycanthropy enducing, population eating Flesh Golems created by vampiric Overlords High Priests tearing down cities while a vampiric Baron Duin Halfmorn goes prowling the countryside for more recruits. Off course, with only a few Longbowmen to chomp on at this time in any of the enemies cities.

sorry aleph , not meaning to be harsh

as far as flesh golems go ... they are a toy , play arond with them for a while . your going to find that for the time involved they are not truely worth the cost.

I'm just beginning in the game, and would like to hear a little bit about these three races regarding their possibilities for magical dominance.

Fine but why exclude all other civs beforehand ?

So the Wiki says the Amurites have the world's best mages, while the Grigori are the best at sorcery and the Sheaim are the game's dominant summoners. It would appear to me, offhand, that the Grigori's magical horizons are focussed more towards the early game, as they are relying on Adventurers and great people gas out towards the later game.

The later game, magic-wise, would be literally dominated by the twin-cast Grigori Archmages and Summoners. There wouldn't really any civ that has the slightest chance to compete with them. The conditional is due to their starting mana (of which I will talk later).

Furthermore, the Grigori are obviously not going to have divine mages, so this makes them a little less flexible (and I really want the ability to make flesh golems to get around national unit limited numbers).

Well, the title is "Uber Mages", so this should exclude Divine Spellcasters, right ?

Amurites seem like they will eventually have the most strong mages via their Cave, and I'm intrigued by their archer/mage as well (particularly with the Arcane trait aiding a combat unit). I'm a little bit less thrilled by their leader picks, since Organized doesn't appeal to me much but I'd definitely want Arcane for them. However, their hero's ability to turn everyone into a tiny necromancer seems exceptionally potent, so that's a trade up as far as I am concerned.

What about all your Civ's units being able to cast Haste, and your Firebows being able to cast Regeneration, all thanks to Govannon ? But you need death mana for the summon skeleton, and I don't advise it as more often than not, it's more advisable that the unit attacks than summon a skeleton.

Sheaim - Well, Summoner and Arcane together are amazing, but it looks to me like the Sheaim, between their desired religious picks and exceptionally powerful high end summoner unit, are a late game dominant nation. Not that I have a problem with that, I'm just trying to sort them out from the other two.

Honestly, I think that Sheaim are a never-dominant nation. Their features depend on too many "ifs" and "buts" IMHO, they were never dominant before FFH 0.20 and they still are not dominant now. Eater of Dreams... nice, but 1) late -too late- and 2) Vampires are better.


All in all, I think the dominant mages are those that have good starting manas, because let's face it, most of the times you can't really count on improved mana nodes, or not as much. You may even end up with 1 or no mana nodes. I rely more on holy-wonders mana than mana nodes.
Anyways, my thought is that there isn't really a trait or civ-feature that is as strong as starting mana. This excludes from this "competition" all or almost all the good-aligned civs (still IMHO), which mostly have questionably useful mana types and very rarely an inclination toward arcane magic.
Personally the civs I prefer for a magic-dominant game are Svartalfar and Amurites, as the mana type I consider by far the best are Mind (very powerful even right from the start as Adept) Enchantment and Body (powerful from the start and onwards). Of course, Fire is also neat.


Every Amurite unit can cast escape, eventually, so Chanters are nothing special.

Ok I would really like to discuss about the fact that you'd waste a mana node with Dimensional Mana only to have your units be able to cast Escape ?

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Wizards yet. Their only specialness is a one time only two-casts-in-one-turn. After it's used, it needs to be restored in the same fashion any mage would.

I agree with you here...

sorry aleph , not meaning to be harsh

as far as flesh golems go ... they are a toy , play arond with them for a while . your going to find that for the time involved they are not truely worth the cost.

I have recently found flesh golems to be very important in the late game. By merging a highly promoted city defender with an archmage that has law (and if possible also spirit) promotions you get city defenders that eliminate unhappiness in their city (and also cast hope if they have spirit mana). This not only allows you to have more than three (due to the archmage cap) large cities without unhappiness, but also frees up archmages to travel with attacking stacks to pound away at city defenses. Sure it takes awhile to set up the necessary units, but then it also takes time to get to the late game during which arcane units, city defenders, and priests are all gaining levels and promotions.

daladdin - no worries. It's just where I'm at - I'm enjoying the game, and I like discovering things for myself, but in some cases you can play solo a LOOOONG time before discovering things which are common knowledge in the game's community. The moreso here, with the documentation being as it is.

btw - anyone working on the docs, don't take it personal. This is the coolest free game I've ever played, and far cooler than some full price ones.


Fine but why exclude all other civs beforehand ?

Because they don't seem like they are contenders for magical dominance for a new set of eyes. I'm willing to believe I missed some - clearly vampires, although apparently they are massively overpowered.


Well, the title is "Uber Mages", so this should exclude Divine Spellcasters, right ?

Nope. Mage is one who magics. Adept, Summoner, religious unit of choice... all subcategories of mage.


What about all your Civ's units being able to cast Haste, and your Firebows being able to cast Regeneration, all thanks to Govannon ? But you need death mana for the summon skeleton, and I don't advise it as more often than not, it's more advisable that the unit attacks than summon a skeleton.

Why don't you summon once and attack thereafter?


Honestly, I think that Sheaim are a never-dominant nation. Their features depend on too many "ifs" and "buts" IMHO, they were never dominant before FFH 0.20 and they still are not dominant now. Eater of Dreams... nice, but 1) late -too late- and 2) Vampires are better.

I don't need to be the best overall, since I won't be playing competitively. I just want to know who does what well magically, because that's the main area I enjoy in all fantasy games.


All in all, I think the dominant mages are those that have good starting manas, because let's face it, most of the times you can't really count on improved mana nodes, or not as much. You may even end up with 1 or no mana nodes. I rely more on holy-wonders mana than mana nodes.

That is an interesting angle of analysis I had not considered. By your logic, how about the Malakim? Creative, Adaptive - with an excellent starting pick of financial for early funds, could grab Arcane later as you mass mages, fire and mind mana in their home territory, and some decent home terrain advantages.

I want to like Luchuirp for the good nations as well. Do you consider them a contender, given that they do have Enchantment, or is it not enough in isolation?

Yeah, adaptive is better than arcane, because you can be creative, philosophical, or financial until you need arcane.

That is an interesting angle of analysis I had not considered. By your logic, how about the Malakim? Creative, Adaptive - with an excellent starting pick of financial for early funds, could grab Arcane later as you mass mages, fire and mind mana in their home territory, and some decent home terrain advantages.

IMO you should look at starting mana, check what spells you can cast from them, and then pick your favourite/most powereful. Traits are not as relevant as spells.


I want to like Luchuirp for the good nations as well. Do you consider them a contender, given that they do have Enchantment, or is it not enough in isolation?

I think Luchuirp lacks the flavor when it comes to mages competition. I don't know but I never considered dwarves as good mages ;) The neutral dwarves can't even get past Adept for mages. Garrim Gyr is Arcane but I think it's mostly intended towards their use of magic to animate Golems & Gargoyles.

what i like about the amurites is that govannon can give adepts fee magic promotions so they dont have to waste their free exp and govonnon can train divine mages with diffferent spheres so they can cast graft flesh and stuff. i like to get leaves and then teach all those other spheres to druids

To all the people saying that the Calabim are overpowered why do I rarely see the Calabim played multiplayer (of course I'm not on a great deal but when I am...)? Also other people say that the Doviello are overpowered.

I agree that the Sheiam need another good unit besides eater of dreams though to make them able to dominate.

If I play any evil team it is always Calabim, come on, Vampires can be charged up in cities to strike at heroes so perfectly!

What about all your Civ's units being able to cast Haste, and your Firebows being able to cast Regeneration, all thanks to Govannon ?

Haste is nearly useless as it's one turn only and stops your unit from attacking. Regen is hardly the game changer it should be.

But you need death mana for the summon skeleton, and I don't advise it as more often than not, it's more advisable that the unit attacks than summon a skeleton.

You understand skeletons are permanent summons right? Train your workers and summon a dozen. Instant anti-invasion force, or use the worker "credit" for your attacking troops.

Ok I would really like to discuss about the fact that you'd waste a mana node with Dimensional Mana only to have your units be able to cast Escape ?

Keeps attacking unit lossage to a minimum. Since I'm normally OO, I don't really have access to Heal, so getting the units out (without walking them back) is a bonus. Plus Alteration Tower, which since you love Mind magic so much should be of interest.

all you have to do to dominate as calabim is adopt the ashen veil and sacrifice the weak. as for the shiam weakness , the shiam are EXTREMELY strong in well played hands.

who uses firebows to summon skells? firebows are highly defensive fire mages , lol

please , we reallly need to learn the difference between gnomes and dwarfs

And you need to learn the difference between a normal summon and a permanent one.

Your firebows can summon those skeletons while walking to the target.

the amurite can graft flesh no matter what religion they follow by giving body 1 too their divine units and druids. i particularly like grafting druids and fire 3 archmages together.

As fun as graft flesh is, by the time you have that -and- archmages -and- druids, haven't you already won?

It's one thing to graft werewolves and firebows together (which also gets around Govannon not training "animals") because the game might still be in contention. It's entirely another when you've all but won and are just avoiding pulling the trigger to finish the game.

just because you have archmages and druids dosent mean you win. the easiest counter for mgic is to use magic against their magic users so as long as they keep up in tech you migh not still have won

Haste is nearly useless as it's one turn only and stops your unit from attacking.

I'd debate you on this point. Giving another unit haste allows them to attack still (I assume Govannon's gift spell gives haste promotion to all units in the tile when cast?) so I find it useful there. Also bringing troops back in defence in a hurry is a use for haste. Perhaps an invading force would benefit a lot from haste doing a blietzkrieg attack (just getting deep into enemy territory even if you don't attack).

Haste is nearly useless as it's one turn only and stops your unit from attacking. Regen is hardly the game changer it should be.


haste useless and regen hardly the game changer ? Apart that Regen on FIREBOW (city defender) is a different thing, anyways, ok: gimmie all your body mana :lol:


You understand skeletons are permanent summons right? Train your workers and summon a dozen. Instant anti-invasion force, or use the worker "credit" for your attacking troops.

I understand that I can train workers with haste in the same way, discrediting your comment above, plus skeletons are pure cannon fodder, mostly useless and that create unnecessary micromanagement of battles, moreover wasting useful experience points. Nice to have, sure, but if I had to choose between summoning skeletons and haste, I'd choose the latter. I understand it's a matter of preferences and style of play, however Amurites start with Body mana but not with Death mana. None starts with the latter and it also provokes penalties for diplomacy. This said, when I play evil civs Death mana is one of my favourites, but not in an absolute way.

Keeps attacking unit lossage to a minimum. Since I'm normally OO, I don't really have access to Heal, so getting the units out (without walking them back) is a bonus. Plus Alteration Tower, which since you love Mind magic so much should be of interest.

Referring to Return and Dimensional Mana. Yeah I know, plus dimensional mana is the prereq for a very nice wonder. As above, it's nice to have, but only if you are really plenty of mana. About teleporting your units to keep them alive... not really effective during a war. A High Priest is more effective.

skeletons are usefull to attack a cities units by moving onto a different space from the caster and attackign a city after you use contagion alot to kill those stubborn units that refuse to die

I'm playing my first Amurite game right now, and I think they're nice if you want to go for a Tower victory. All 15 mana types can be difficult, but you just need to recognize all the potential sources. Even if you can't get them all (which isn't something you should count on until you've seen the map), getting close is a major boon to your Adepts. Get 10 mana types, or 8 and the right civics, and Adepts are ready for upgrading to Wizards right out of the gate. I find the Philosophical trait is nice for libraries and elder councils, and the great people can help gather those mana types. Magic resistant isn't helping me at all right now, but the AI isn't very good at the whole magic thing, I think.

Anyhow, here's my listing of where to get mana types for a potential Tower victory:

You need all 15 types.
Start with 3 (Palace).
Earth, Nature, Law, Water, and Entropy can all be potentially gained from founding the proper religion and using a Great Person to get the Holy City. Keep in mind you need different Great People for different religions.
Life can be gained from the Tomb of Sucellus.
Death can be gained from the Soul Forge.
Everything else you'll have to get from the map.

I've gotten rather lucky. Starting expansion grabbed 2 nodes. After conquering Varn (only other civ on my continent), I gained 2 more. I've built Octopus (my religion) and Order (Varn had the holy city) for two more, and recently founded the Ashen Veil just to gain the mana by using a Great Sage. Add my 3 starting mana and I'm up to 10 different types now. Death I'm about to get from the Soul Forge. I'm left with Earth, Life, Nature and Spirit to gain or steal. There are 8 raw mana nodes among 3 civs on the other continent, and in different cities are the wonders/shrines for Earth and Life. I have the Leaves holy city if I can pop a Great Bard (shouldn't have wasted the one from Drama!) for Nature.

Only problem is that I've taken so long and still don't have all the mana types for any one of the towers, so I can't really get started yet. When playing as the Amurites, though, you can afford to not only -go- for a Tower victory, you can afford to fail, as it leaves you with Adepts that can become Wizards the turn after you build them.

Militarily they might not quite be the best, but there are other ways of winning the game.

I always find it amusing to graft a Patriarch into a flesh golem. It will be the patriarch for whatever religion you choose. Since the golem has no other use for its xp, I don't mind sacrificing it for multiple holy wars. However, it does seem that the patriarch promotion should be tied to the religion of the unit, not the owner.
On an unrelated note, necromancy spells seem like an odd choice for a man who wants to use magic to help the poor. Alteration seems more logical, but I wouldn't mind if he could teach from nearly every sphere. That would make up fir his lack of the Hero promotion nicely.

i agree with that. it would be nice to teach my workers spring and charm person

I must say after playing as Cassiel, Dain, Valledia, and Flauros that I like Cassiel the best. The Amurites certainly have their niche, and I've gotten quite some ridiculous crap going on with them at times (e.g. firebows in every city, Govannon teaching even workers and hawks haste, raise skeleton, and escape, and the obligatory trip-lich/trip-archmage). Flauros' vampires are quite good for early game as they can contagion the living poo out of a city without a single real combat. But Cassiel has the sheer versatility that the others lack. Just two or three adventurer magi are all that anyone should need to pummel his or her foes back into the Age of Ice. I typically turn the early ones into melee or recon units to speed early game exploration and such, but once the magi hit the board, it's all over. No one can stand up to twincasted spellstaff meteor swarms for very long. Just my two coppers worth.
Oh, and as for summoning: I prefer magi. Summoners are nice and all (especially when you have the trait for it), but meteors can bombard and make it that much easier for your occupying force of immortal adventurers to move in. Some games I've dominated the map with little else but mithril-equipped mercenaries backed up by a couple of my ubermagi.
Fun gaming to all! Thanks to Kael and company for the best mod ever.

The Calabim and have the Uber Mages. Grigori have limited adventurers, and Sheaim are limited to summoning. Calabim can feast and produce as many uber mages or units with 100 exp as possible. Amurites don't have ways of producing uber mages. But...

Amurites don't have uber mages, they have the most powerful magical output. In Civ4 combat, any high strength unit, in low numbers, can be beat with a dogpile. And Amurite magic can take the word "dogpile" to a whole new level.

I would agree that the Calabim mages are awesome, but it takes longest to set them up as you first need to research vampires. The grigori are very good, but are limted numberwise. The sheaim are quite good, espescially when defending a Sacrifice the Weak city with balor summoners.:lol: Amurites are very good, as they have a great magic output, but they need something more to make them great. Recently, I discovered that the Luchurip are actually very good mages wit enchantment. I would say the best are Amurites, Sheaim, and then Grigori, the Luchurip, and finally the Calabim.

i am very surprised that no one made mention of the sheiam and the AV combo. when you take high priests and inquisitors that have final summons available. give them the bonus life span of the summoner trait. then combo in the increased xp gains from both the arcane trait and the unholy taint. your looking at some very impressive summoners. not to mention that these dame guys have ring of fire and pillar of fire at their disposal. all of this backed by the eater of souls.

you have to look at how long it takes the various civs to reach these levels of power and if they can survive on the path to it.

the grigori have the speed factor hands down. they can have fully spec'd mages and archmages as soon as the tech is researched.

the amurites are bound to have an incredibly strong army of mages. but this army plays on numbers. they do however have the advantage of replacing an archmage quickly once lost (after you acquire ALOT of mana).

the sheiam are insanely strong the entire way. and have the split choices of both summoning and divine at their disposal. they are capable of having 9 final tier summoners.

the calabim while capable of alot of power are just too slow to get there.

with amurites, #offensive
-to mage numbers... think fireball mage 1turn after creation ... (7 manas + 3fire mana +2xp --> FireII, 10xp==> fireball caster + combatV)
-to haste and chaos blades lauched by workers.... "war has begun, workers (slaves!! hawks!!) are mobilised for sustaining the army" 1free mvt point + 1 free drill II promo for each living units in your stack.
-body 1, death 1 and chaos 1 available freely to your mages/summoners : at least 1 level of xp to spent.
-any guarding unit can speed your moving units.
-firebow + govanon ==> flurry casting fireball, contagion, regen, reversal of fortune in case of encountering a very mean uber-vilain.
-attack druid (summon pit beast then boost them with enraged, chaos blade, stone skin, tree top defense...each turn the beast is more powerfull, or contagion, or wraith, or entangle/summon treant..., graft flesh ??)
-Lich

#devellopping :
-speeded workers/slaves : these are the vanilla Indian workers : casting Hast does not remove the build improvement ability.
-very easy to move you troops around (especially the spring/sanctify adept): +1mvt through a worker casting hast.
-druid with hast are very powerfull
-terraforming Lich
-worker can work without guards as it can summon skeletions to protect them in case of need... without loosing any worker turn

#druid
-get a ranger... upgrade him with only usefull xp : Combat or better : upgrade him not.
-let him meet govannon 3-4 times
-after a time let him become a druid.
-then you have a druid with nature1, subdue animal... normal, summoner, divine and sorcery and either promos or free xp ===> normal
but being amurite you gain more :
-body 1
-chaos 1
-death 1
==> with 6 more promotions ... you have a unit that can launch all spells in 3domains.. 8 promo: in 4 domains. wraith or treant or pit-beast ? terraforming your floodplain onto grassland +3F : for 5 base food ? mutation ? rage? lichdom? all you need is to choose.

#Lich
==> create a ranger, meet govanon for death1 chaos1 body1, (only living non-disciple so neither druids nor lichs can learn from govanon) ==> get as many recon promo you want
==> go druid
-gain xp as ranger or as druid by fighting.
==> go death III (5xp needed) get as many disciple promos you want
-use lichdom
==> get combat 1 free, spell extension 1free.
use as many xp you want to get 3 spell for 1lvl xp !!!
you are getting UBER-archmage/summoner/High priest...

==> advantages :
-They are cheap in term of xp : you need only 5xp to get them.
-all magic domains casters ! Each level of xp you use above manaI gets you 2-3 spells !!
(-as you have channelingIII and low level, you earn free xp at a very rapid rate, even more if you have the arcane trait)
-You have nature able without nature mana + subdue animal lichs !! (think terraforming lich)
-you can make them earn recon + disciple only promo if you want to spend the xp.

==>issues :
-they do not profit from free level from adept-mage or mage-archmage upgrade
-they do not get free xp from cave of ancestor
-they do not get free manaI or manaII if you own multiple mana nodes of a same type.

all that gives you some cheap ubermages
(ok, you still need to have govannon, and druids... techs :)EDIT: all is under spoiler

play tested it :
build ranger /meet govannon 3 times
ranger ==> druid cost 185
then either wait until 5xp or go fighting.
==> become a lich
-wait or fight for more xp, have fun with the uber-mage. when he has too much xp to gain more, graftflesh him (if undead can be grafted) and replace him by a druid that was gaining xp-->

advantages :
-only 185 gold + 5xp to have a lich
-no need to have reagants nor incense to get any channeling III unit whatever the mana wanted.
-lich with summoner, sorcery and divine spells
-lich with free bodyI, free natureI, free chaosI, free deathI
-lich with subdue animal

no good :
-only 3.
-185 gold.
-cannot get haste : limited to 1 mvt point unless mobility promo.
-cannot have free promos from ugrading
-even with divine and channelingIII and religion : cannot become patriarch :)

To all the people saying that the Calabim are overpowered why do I rarely see the Calabim played multiplayer (of course I'm not on a great deal but when I am...)? Also other people say that the Doviello are overpowered.
Slightly off-topic, but I'd imagine that's largely due to the fact that they come into their own relatively late - competitive MP games tend to be quick and nasty, so early UUs often dominate. Hence the popularity of Doviello and Hippus (awesome cavalry for which you don't even need to find and secure horses? Excellent. Even more boosted if you can get hold of Nightmares.)

One of my first games I was playing the Amurites. I was trying to learn the magic system. I had lots of fun.

Some highlights:
Hasted flurrys to get one more attack in a turn. And also to move my stacks two squares instead of only one. (It was really irritating that haste did not affect my liches. They were the slow pokes of the army.)

I was playing on noble, I think, and founded all the religions (except one). By mid game I was able to promote my adepts to mages right after they were built. I and the friend I play with tend to play builder style. So my first mana node was turned to Spirit and I was Inspiring and giving Hope to every city. Eventually the same two mages could use fireballs. Mages with fireballs was the bulk of my military. And they won me some early wars with the AI.

I grafted (using a high priest of Kilmorph) two flurrys together. That was one powerful flesh golem (I believe it had a 17 strength, though the only thing I could figure is that the game was calculating its strength based on the metal weapons promotions the original flurrys had which I wasn't expecting).

So in late game the typical city attack would be to reduce city defenses to nil on approach using meteor bombards. Then a volley of meteors the next turn to damage all the defenders then flurry them to death, and finally mop up with my patriach or other units. Then the patriarch would start healing everyone. I also had the sirona wonder.

Finally, as I was about to build the tower of mastery, my friend landed a decent army on my coast and took an unimportant city or two. I then used the nexus to bring in my archmages, liches, and lots of fireball mages, and placed a shield wall in the more important cities close by. My friend had a much stronger melee army (including a phalanx or two if I recall). He even spread it out a bit, but about two turns of all the meteors and fire balls as he approached my defended cities obliterated it. It was one of his first games, though. I don't expect I will ever out magic him again.

this may be off-topic, but in your next game, i'd recommend getting a hunter or two with your mages ;-). shadows eat fireball-mages for breakfast (almost any mage actually).

well, shadow target the least powerful unit in the stack IIRC ?
get some worker in your mage stake and they will tak the surprise attack.
then : floating eye (with priest or water oriented uber druidic-lich), see the shadow, kill him. but hunter are cheaper you are right

Um, how do you get a water sphere duidic lich? water is not one of the spheres Govannon can teach (unless you add a few more training spells in xml, as I have done). You can have liches with water magic sure, but just ordinary archmage liches with out the divine promotion.

Of course, floating eye is actually mind II divine spell, but Govannon can't teach that spell sphere either.

Amurites, I reckon. Nobody can tech up the magic pathway faster than Dain, and the Cave ensures that adepts are well on their way to wizardhood (or conjurerhood) straight from the barracks. So Dain can easily have wizards well before Grigori, and in much greater numbers. A massive, very early force of hasted fireball mages supported by a mass of skellingtons is a terrible thing to behold.

But govannon can teach the druids death magic. (or at least the rangers). which makes them able to turn into liches with divine promotion which makes them able to learn water magic by themself.

Last I checked, Liches can't learn new magic spheres. Mana doesn't mean much to them. They can only learn the higher versions of spheres they already know.

Of course, I haven't used a lich since version .22

I thought it was only they stop gaining exp automatically

i didnt tried it myself but well...

But govannon can teach the druids death magic. (or at least the rangers). which makes them able to turn into liches with divine promotion which makes them able to learn water magic by themself.That's how I understand it..Last I checked, Liches can't learn new magic spheres. Mana doesn't mean much to them. They can only learn the higher versions of spheres they already know.

Of course, I haven't used a lich since version .22 That I didn't know... gonna have to check/playtestI thought it was only they stop gaining exp automatically I'm sure they do. (at least in 2.23) I've seen tehm earn slowly some xp...

I'm gonna do some test and add xp to min eit see if they can learn new mana areas.

oki..
tried it again with 2.23
3 druids with 35 / 24 /15 xp, with body/chaos/death lvl 1
upgraded all to death 3
go lichdom

learned respectively : fireIII, Water II, life I
after 3 turns, xp were at : 35 / 26 / 16
they both : gained free magic xp as any other mage, can learn new spheres...

but maybe 2.25 has changed all that.

Cala.

I just checked and I was wrong: Liches can gain magic promotions the same way as any other arcane unit in .25.

Still, I'm pretty sure that they did not have the ability back in version .21 or .22.

when I play-tested, my lichs had 8str... bizarre..
wiki tells they should be 4+2death =6
mine were 6+2=8... (as strong a caster as Hemah...)

was that a change made in 2.23 with wiki from 2.21 ?? or due to going through the unusual 'druid-lich' path?

Unlike most here, I'm talking from the experience of having played multiple multiplayer games showing some very powerful combos during each. So..

Grigori: Their only advantage is the hero mages, which gives them twin cast and easy-to-come-by xp to get them levels. Although you get 3-6 end game units, they are stil SINGULAR units, that won't make a difference when it comes to dominating the map. The magi are powerful alone, but they are not a force strong enough.

Amurites: I have to admit that I have no experience of Amurites on multiplayer, so I don't really know what they can really do. I can just imagine that after getting Govannon they get a lot more powerful. Single mages aren't that tough, but all your units summon skeletons for defence, and firebows pelt enemies with fireballs. Probably nice end game civ for their magic, but not really dominant.

Calabim: Who needs heroes when you can get the exp with vampires. For 100xp you get 11 levels, so Grigori heroes get Fire 3, Spell Ext 2, Twincast, Enchantment 3, Combat 5 for max powered meteors. You also get 3 free promos from magi level upgrades so you can just about make it. Calabim get 100xp trivially for EVERY mage past level 6, and get some uncomfortably powerful archmages with xp around 300ish. Fancy having no unhappiness in your cities but wouldn't want to waste levels on Law 3? No prob for calabim.

Sheaim: Rules the game from the moment they get Veil and Priesthood. Who ever claims that Sheaim is not dominating, has never played against a clueful Veil player. Ritualists are the bread and butter of Sheaim, as they are relatively cheap to build, and they can churn out 1 sand lion each turn that will have 9 moves before unsummoning off. With the same tech level you get axemen and half of the tech needed for a macemen. Now, imagine having to fight off 30 sand lions every turn, that are sent from 9 tiles away, and all you have got is axemen, which you have to build.
If you let Sheaim get to the Eater of Dreams, every city you lose to them will become a stack of wraiths that moves at least 9 moves and will eat up your next city. Buh-bye.

Bottom line: Sheaim get at Priesthood-tech the most powerful unit in the game at that stage, and if they exploit their Summoner-trait, they will wipe the whole world without losing one single Ritualist.

For me some of the best mages are Belseraphs under Keelyn, the firs time I played Belseraphs was the first time I'd ver used the summoning trait before, now Keelyn is one of my favourite leaders.

I know that strictly the sheaim are quite a lot better from a summonig mage point of view but the beseraphs are 1 of my favourite civs so you know.

People don't seem to be giving any credit to Grigori Twincasting summoners and using Adaptive to pick up Summoner Trait. Is that one not an option?

No, not every trait is availible to adaptive. That one isn't, I don't think defender is either.

Unlike most here, I'm talking from the experience of having played multiple multiplayer games showing some very powerful combos during each. So..

Grigori: Their only advantage is the hero mages, which gives them twin cast and easy-to-come-by xp to get them levels. Although you get 3-6 end game units, they are stil SINGULAR units, that won't make a difference when it comes to dominating the map. The magi are powerful alone, but they are not a force strong enough.

Amurites: I have to admit that I have no experience of Amurites on multiplayer, so I don't really know what they can really do. I can just imagine that after getting Govannon they get a lot more powerful. Single mages aren't that tough, but all your units summon skeletons for defence, and firebows pelt enemies with fireballs. Probably nice end game civ for their magic, but not really dominant.

Calabim: Who needs heroes when you can get the exp with vampires. For 100xp you get 11 levels, so Grigori heroes get Fire 3, Spell Ext 2, Twincast, Enchantment 3, Combat 5 for max powered meteors. You also get 3 free promos from magi level upgrades so you can just about make it. Calabim get 100xp trivially for EVERY mage past level 6, and get some uncomfortably powerful archmages with xp around 300ish. Fancy having no unhappiness in your cities but wouldn't want to waste levels on Law 3? No prob for calabim.

Sheaim: Rules the game from the moment they get Veil and Priesthood. Who ever claims that Sheaim is not dominating, has never played against a clueful Veil player. Ritualists are the bread and butter of Sheaim, as they are relatively cheap to build, and they can churn out 1 sand lion each turn that will have 9 moves before unsummoning off. With the same tech level you get axemen and half of the tech needed for a macemen. Now, imagine having to fight off 30 sand lions every turn, that are sent from 9 tiles away, and all you have got is axemen, which you have to build.
If you let Sheaim get to the Eater of Dreams, every city you lose to them will become a stack of wraiths that moves at least 9 moves and will eat up your next city. Buh-bye.

Bottom line: Sheaim get at Priesthood-tech the most powerful unit in the game at that stage, and if they exploit their Summoner-trait, they will wipe the whole world without losing one single Ritualist.

Convincing argument IMO.

I'm not a big fan of adventurer mages, since they don't start with free sphere promotions like built adepts do. It feels like I'm wasting the free xp if I use it to get something that would otherwise be free. Of course, if summoner were a trait choice from adaptive I would probably change my mind about adventurer summoners (although summoner extra-planar, possible angelic/demonic units really doesn't make sense for someone who thinks that humanity should be left to develop on its own)

What I like about the Amurites is that they can mass produce Wizards at 10 XP sort of easily.

Since Valledia the Even is organized, she can build the Command Posts without using Great Commanders, and Arcane is ofc. useful when you mass produce wizards. Dain the Caswallan got Philosophical which is probably my favorite trait.

Vampire Ritualists (and High Priests) are nice too.

My typical strategy when I use Grigori is that adventurers ONLY go mage/summoner. The first Adventurer might go warrior if I have some nuisance neighbors, but all adventurers after that sit in my capitol and just accumulate unspent Exp.

Then when I hit Knowledge of the Ether, I upgrade them all to adepts. I do not spend ANY experience unless I have Charismatic active. Then instead of level 11, I can make it to level 14 with the 100 exp cap. I snag Combat 5 first, then start to diversify from there with what each one will eventually become.

With no Religion to worry about, Knowledge of the Ether typically comes quite early for me, and it isn't hard to kill things with an adept for quick exp either. Though I have never stuck to this strategy long enough yet to swap back over to Raiders and move beyond 100 exp without war (generally wind up at war or with a fresh hero who desires the reduced Exp per level when I am able to change traits).

I'm not a big fan of adventurer mages, since they don't start with free sphere promotions like built adepts do. It feels like I'm wasting the free xp if I use it to get something that would otherwise be free. Of course, if summoner were a trait choice from adaptive I would probably change my mind about adventurer summoners (although summoner extra-planar, possible angelic/demonic units really doesn't make sense for someone who thinks that humanity should be left to develop on its own)

Another way to look at it is that mages are the hardest units to develop, since they are weaker and do not gain EPs through use of magic. So instead of having to nurse an Adept through a dozen minor conflicts up to enough EPs to become an Archmage and then wait what seems like forever for the next few promotions, you let the Adventurer promotion do that for you. I don't think I've ever had a mage with 100+ EPs except for the Adventurer.

BTW: I seem to recall someone saying the Adventurers will advance faster if you go ahead and upgrade them to Adepts rather than leaving that for later.

Yes, once they go adept they also get the free exp as a caster, so some turns will get more than the 1 for being hero.

But the waiting is: Do not upgrade unless to Adept (save maybe 1 for killing things as a warrior), and 2: Do not buy promotions until you are Charismatic

When you are on the approriate level and are certain you aren't going to get 3 same mana in near future, upgrade to mages. They get faster free xp.

What would getting 3 similar mana have to do with upgrading ot mage? That only means anything on the creation of an adept through city production. Once they exist in the world, and have gained exp to become a mage, how many mana of any type you have is meaningless.

Charleswatkins, I just spent the last few hours nursing a Adventurer summoner:
He the clean up guy using Orthus ax, His stack mates are an order preist, a mace man and a longbowman, a mage with the stack, and two other mages that pop out of near by cities to cast treetops and dance of blades.
With close to 150 ex points he can now twins two spiffy skelatons or chaos marauders. Every time I do this and send them out to do a little raiding they encounter a tree ent. The joke is on me lol.

What would getting 3 similar mana have to do with upgrading ot mage? That only means anything on the creation of an adept through city production. Once they exist in the world, and have gained exp to become a mage, how many mana of any type you have is meaningless.

If you have 2 same mana you get free lvl I spells of that type for adepts. If you have 3 same mana you get free lvl II spells of that type for mages/conjurers

Personally, I like the Amurites for the best druids ever. Of course, it's kind of a silly trick - takes too long and requires lots of gold. But if I'm playing Amurites, I can't help but wait around for it. Govannon some Scouts (or Rangers, I think they still count as Recon), and then upgrade to Druids. You now have the ability to get 3 levels of Summoning/Sorcery/Divine in Body/Nature/Death/Chaos. Usually I skip Chaos, because it isn't really necessary in this combo.

This, of course, includes the ability to make Liches and Flesh Golems, so you can have a crapload of them.

If you have 2 same mana you get free lvl I spells of that type for adepts. If you have 3 same mana you get free lvl II spells of that type for mages/conjurers

Of course, this *only* applies to adepts constructed after getting the multiple mana - nothing else.

Only the Amurites (and possibly the Calabim) really benefit from it, since the others either want to build their adepts very early to give them time to level up (Sheaim, somtimes Calabim), use priests instead (Sheaim again) or use adventurers, who don't get the free mana spheres in the first place (Grigori).

One thing I've liked to do with them is go Phi/Cha on the traits. The heroes then end up having several extra promotions once they get to max xp. This gives their mages a nice extra boost.

Another way to look at it is that mages are the hardest units to develop, since they are weaker and do not gain EPs through use of magic. So instead of having to nurse an Adept through a dozen minor conflicts up to enough EPs to become an Archmage and then wait what seems like forever for the next few promotions, you let the Adventurer promotion do that for you. I don't think I've ever had a mage with 100+ EPs except for the Adventurer.

BTW: I seem to recall someone saying the Adventurers will advance faster if you go ahead and upgrade them to Adepts rather than leaving that for later.

Yah, since then they get the natural Adept xp, plus the adventurer xp.

current, unedited ("shadow") illians are good choice too
Charismatic trait + 4 free XP in capital (require making capital special unit building city) alows you to mage-dominate pretty early

Do not buy promotions until you are Charismatic
Why? When you switch to charismatic you just gain new level(s) for the same XP and no promos are lost in any case.

Let us calculate how much instant XP have amurite adepts. Sorry if repeated. Apprenticeship+Theocracy+Conquest=6; Cave of ancestors = from 3 to much more. So minimum 9; If Valledia then +2 from command post. If Form of the Titan then +2. Mana also from religion, nodes, occasionally from unique features, vassals...

Amurities is the only civ who can get hemah + govanon + 3 druids + 3 liches + archmages all with fire 3 for so many meteors it is not funny... Teach death 1 and fire 1 to a ranger, make him into a druid and then into a lich and you have one badass unit. Do this 3 times, stop at the druid step 3 times and make 3 regular archmages and suddenly you have 9 archmageeqivalents as well as 2 heroes which can also get meteors as well as twincast. Amurites are the most potentially powerfull(39 meteors per turn). However grigori are way more often more powerful in practice as they get access to their twincasting archmages so fast due to the world spell. 18 meteors with combat 5 and mobility 2 is enough to grind most things into paste...

imho ,

i will take my 3 eaters of dreams with chaos 3 and fire 3 any day vs the whole (hemah+govanon and crew). that whole crew can give you 13 meteor casts a turn for a sum total of 39 little meteors. some with a move 3 some with a move 4 and no ability to use roads.

why?

in the case of the fire elementals... they are immune to the first hit and only suffer the collateral damage portion(god i hope that gets fixed). they have a total move of 12 and can take advantage of roads while in my territory.

in the case of pit beasts .... they start with a base move of 12 also , however every turn that they kill something is an extra turn they can hang around and fight.

and yes i have managed at times to summon 48 pit beasts in a single turn. then for 4-5 turns i only summon 3 per turn... then spike again for another 10-50.

its a debate .... but notice i am not yet even talking about priests , lol .....

The Illian +4 xp from the palace is for melee units only, so it does not help with mages.

Why? When you switch to charismatic you just gain new level(s) for the same XP and no promos are lost in any case.

Charismatic: 2, 4, 8, 13, 20, 28, 38, 49, 62, 76, 92, 109 -- Meaning Level 11 before the 100 XP from Barbarian/Hero cap.

Non-Charismatic: 2, 5, 10, 17, 26, 37, 50, 65, 82, 101 -- Meaning Level 10 before the 100 XP from Barbarian/Hero cap.

Yes, at this point it winds up meaning only 1 level gained over non-charismatic. But past that point it becomes even better still. And if you aren't able to get beyond that point because you aren't at war or HN, then the extra promotion can mean a LOT.

On a side note: I really wish there was a leader with Raider + Charismatic :)

That would be ridiculously overpowered :p


{modmod time! ;)}

No, ridiculously overpowered would be to also give them Summoning, and make it a Sidar Leader ;)

Charismatic: 2, 4, 8, 13, 20, 28, 38, 49, 62, 76, 92, 109 -- Meaning Level 11 before the 100 XP from Barbarian/Hero cap.

Non-Charismatic: 2, 5, 10, 17, 26, 37, 50, 65, 82, 101 -- Meaning Level 10 before the 100 XP from Barbarian/Hero cap.


Errr... The point was you do not need to wait for Charismatic to buy promos for first 10 levels. If you have 100xp and level 10 (with all promos), then after switching to Char you are able to promote a unit level more as you still have 100 XP. Usually after switching there are several units who need further promotion.

PS Raider-Aggressive is usually better then Raider-Charismatic. E.g. for 101xp 11 levels have both Char and non-Char, but Agg has one promo more plus better start. Charismatic more important for arcane units - Arcane+Charismatic was proposed by Cuteunit for her Sidar female.

I thought she wanted financial + arcane

It-Ogo, are you sure that you gain the spare level when you swap to Charismatic? I guess it makes sense as it would make the required experience for Level 11 change from 101 to 92... Hadn't actually thought to do it that way before, but it does seem that you are correct... oops :)

Arcane + Charismatic would also be somewhat sickeningly powerful. And up to the 100 mark Agressive is probably the better choice, but after level 13 a Charismatic player of the same XP value as a non-Charismatic one will be 2 levels more promoted, so they finally beat out the 1 free promotion start.

It-Ogo, are you sure that you gain the spare level when you swap to Charismatic?

No special checks but each time I switch to Char there were several units to promote. I met this phenomenon with both Insane and Adaptive. :D

Yeah, I realized you were right when I was typing it all up (but was too lazy to edit out the bit from before you got through my thick skull), since your unit would be flagged as Level 10: 100/101 before you swap, and Level 10: 100/92 after you swap. Thus being exactly the same effect as if you had just won a battle worth 9 XP from a previous 91/92. It just sees that you ought to be 11, so offers you a promotion to claim.

The other thing I'd add about the Calabim is that for the mere sum of 450 gold you can turn a melee unit into a spellcaster with instant XP gain ability. In fact all 3 of their vampire UU's only require metal and religous path, allowing you to spend more time doing the important stuff like currency, taxation and engineering.... Knowledge of the Ether? What's that?

Grigori have the fastest mages, perhaps not the most uber, but for most practical purposes speed matters. And the worldspell just made the lightbulbing to strength of will that much faster.

Sheaim... now they get interesting. I'm not sure how exactly sand lions work - I thought they have to tread on desert and only have 2 movement, but sure, it's faster than Govannon and mass skeletons. Multiplayer they're awesome, single player the Sheaim don't have any economic ability to hold the conquests.