I've been reading this novel "The Other Boleyn Girl" by Philippa Gregory and have become very interested in Anne Boleyn - Henry VIII's second wife and mother of Queen Elizabeth I. She had dark hair and eyes, which was unfashionable at the time but more than made up for this with wit and charm that proved irresistable to Henry VIII. Furthermore, as she grew up in the French court, she brought back to England with her, French fashions and customs, and made the English court lively and interesting.

I do think, as most historians do, that she was a victim of political power struggles between powerful English families at the time. She was accused of heinous (sexual) crimes which she was never guilty of. But most people were unified and acquiesced to her murder at the time because it served their agenda. For example, her own sister-in-law gave evidence that she, and Lord Rochford, her brother, were involved in an incestuous relationship. Only to confess later - when she herself was about to executed - that she did it out of jealous spite.

In hindsight, I think we have not been giving her enough attention for her role in English history. After all, she was the reason Henry VIII sought divorce from Katherine of Aragon - although one could argue this would've occurred sooner or later anyway as he was in desperate need of a male heir and Katherine clearly no longer able to produce one.

However, one must remember Anne was a staunch Protestant and she subscribed to Protestant ideas like that of Martin Luther's even before the English Reformation took shape. And of course, we must not forget the influence of that philosophy on her daughter Elizabeth who would go on to shape England as a nation and the Church of England as a religious entity for the next 500 years.

http://englishhistory.net/tudor/monarchs/boleynmainjpg.jpg

Anne Boleyn

Your thoughts?

Bump. Talk, damn it. :mad: :)

Hmm I learnt only little about her, she wasnt so beauty but had own charisma. (how todays historicans describing Cleopatra). I think Henry hadnt so much morality. He was great in Britain, but my view of him is not so good. So I simply think that he losted amorousness to her and wanted another marriage.

Hmm I learnt only little about her, she wasnt so beauty but had own charisma. (how todays historicans describing Cleopatra). I think Henry hadnt so much morality. He was great in Britain, but my view of him is not so good. So I simply think that he losted amorousness to her and wanted another marriage.

Henry was definitely immoral and a tyrant. The irony, of course, is that Elizabeth his, unwanted, daughter became the greatest monarch of his country. That's a victory for Anne Boleyn in the end.

I definitely do not think she got not enough attention. I think history is all over her... ;) I haven't checked but I do think you could find around 50 novels on her on amazon... I do also think that she has quite a big place in the British curriculum. And that's also where she belongs, she is English (British) history and isn't that important for other countries... (you'll probably never find her in the German curriculum for example)

mfG mick

I definitely do not think she got not enough attention. I think history is all over her... ;) I haven't checked but I do think you could find around 50 novels on her on amazon... I do also think that she has quite a big place in the British curriculum. And that's also where she belongs, she is English (British) history and isn't that important for other countries... (you'll probably never find her in the German curriculum for example)

mfG mick

Well we hadnt learnt much about her in history, but in English language we had to know elementals about members of British dynasties. She was also included in school-leaving exam from English language.

It is amazing to think how different English history would've been had Catherine of Aragon birthed a son. No Church of England, Thomas More would be but a footnote, no Elizabethan age, Shakespeare would've been completely different, etc.

Why was she Marquis of Pembroke? Is that like being mini(princess of Wales)?

Why was she Marquis of Pembroke? Is that like being mini(princess of Wales)?

She was made one by Henry VIII before she became Queen. I think it's below a Duke and Earl (?) so it's pretty high up. She's the first commoner to become a noble this way - rather than the usual by birth or marriage. When she was in favour, her entire family benefited with better titles and lands.

And I beg your pardon, it should be Marchioness of Pembroke for females.

It is amazing to think how different English history would've been had Catherine of Aragon birthed a son. No Church of England, Thomas More would be but a footnote, no Elizabethan age, Shakespeare would've been completely different, etc.

England was always going to become protestant sooner or later. I think the whole Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn thing just spearheaded it.

I think it was a shame that Anne Boleyn wasn't given more credit for the religious revolution that was brought about. It wasn't just the fact that she wanted to be queen that brought about the English Protestantism.

Also, I've changed title to "Marquess" as per the correct British spelling. Marquis is the French or American spelling. And it was incorrect to call her Marchioness because she wasn't the wife of a Marquess, she was a Marquess in her own right.

I have to say that the only thing I know about Anne Boleyn is that she had six fingers on each hand. Assuming that that's actually true, of course.

And of course, we must not forget the influence of that philosophy on her daughter Elizabeth who would go on to shape England as a nation and the Church of England as a religious entity for the next 500 years.

I'm not really convinced by that - Elizabeth didn't shape the Church of England, she just left it alone to shape itself. Which in itself may have been quite significant, of course.

England was always going to become protestant sooner or later. I think the whole Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn thing just spearheaded it.

That is possible, although it's impossible to tell. It's important to bear in mind that Henry didn't make the Church of England Protestant in a theological sense: he simply took over control from the Pope. Left to his own devices I should think he'd have kept the church pretty much identical apart from the leadership, since his purpose was only to authorise his own divorce. It was his advisers such as Cranmer who were influenced by Luther and who took this amazing opportunity to rebuild the new church in a Lutheran way. The question really is this: without Henry's actions, would Cranmer and those like him ever have had the opportunity to "Lutheranise" the church in England? Or would Lutheran or Reformed churches have replaced the Catholic Church there as they did in other parts of Europe? Personally I suspect that it wouldn't have happened: I think that the English were and still are too conservative, especially in religious matters, for that to have happened. Without a dramatic catalyst such as Henry's divorce it seems to me more likely that England would have carried on rather like Ireland. Although you never know: perhaps it would have followed the model of Scotland. Perhaps the Reformed church would have made major inroads in the north, while the south would have remained more Catholic. Or, alternatively, perhaps the English would have cheerily embraced one of the Protestant faiths if that meant annoying the French.

I think that the English were and still are too conservative, especially in religious matters, for that to have happened. Without a dramatic catalyst such as Henry's divorce it seems to me more likely that England would have carried on rather like Ireland.
Probably true- after all, the current Anglican Church is fairly similar to the Catholic Church as it is- at least compared to Presbyterian or Lutheran denominations- and even then that's after the influence of more puritanical Protestants during the 16th/17th centuries.

Well, parts of the Anglican church are virtually indistinguishable from Roman Catholicism. Other parts are as "low" and fundamentalist as any American Baptist. The incredible doctrinal and liturgical diversity of the Church of England has always been traditionally regarded as one of its strengths, although it is also its greatest weakness.

Oh Plotinus. You're such a theologian.

All anyone needs to know about lovely ol' Anne is as follows:

In the Tower of London, large as life,
The ghost of Ann Boleyn walks, they declare.
Poor Ann Boleyn was once King Henry's wife -
Until he made the Headsman bob her hair!
Ah yes! he did her wrong long years ago,
And she comes up at night to tell him so.

With her head tucked underneath her arm
She walks the Bloody Tower!
With her head tucked underneath her arm
At the Midnight hour -

She comes to haunt King Henry, she means giving him 'what for',
Gad Zooks, she's going to tell him off for having spilt her gore.
And just in case the Headsman wants to give her an encore
She has her head tucked underneath her arm!

With her head tucked underneath her arm
She walks the Bloody Tower!
With her head tucked underneath her arm
At the Midnight hour.

Along the draughty corridors for miles and miles she goes,
She often catches cold, poor thing, it's cold there when it blows,
And it's awfully awkward for the Queen to have to blow her nose
With her head tucked underneath her arm!

Sometimes gay King Henry gives a spread
For all his pals and gals - a ghostly crew.
The headsman carves the joint and cuts the bread,
Then in comes Ann Boleyn to 'queer' the 'do';
She holds her head up with a wild war whoop,
And Henry cries 'Don't drop it in the soup!'

With her head tucked underneath her arm
She walks the Bloody Tower!
With her head tucked underneath her arm
At the Midnight hour.

The sentries think that it's a football that she carries in,
And when they've had a few they shout 'Is Ars'nal going to win?'
They think it's Alec James, instead of poor old Ann Boleyn
With her head tucked underneath her arm!

With her head tucked underneath her arm
She walks the Bloody Tower!
With her head tucked underneath her arm
At the Midnight hour.

One night she caught King Henry, he was in the Canteen Bar.
Said he 'Are you Jane Seymour, Ann Boleyn or Cath'rine Parr?
For how the sweet san fairy ann do I know who you are
With your head tucked underneath your arm!'

I have to say that the only thing I know about Anne Boleyn is that she had six fingers on each hand. Assuming that that's actually true, of course.

Completely false. Henry VIII was obsessed with getting a son. This was a time when they believed in witchcraft and things like that. No way, Henry would've married a woman that's physical or otherwise abnormal in any way. No way.

I'm not really convinced by that - Elizabeth didn't shape the Church of England, she just left it alone to shape itself. Which in itself may have been quite significant, of course.

Not really the Elizabethan Religious settlement of course tells us otherwise. Even if she didn't shape it, she did guide it in the right direction. The Act of Supremacy was important because it cut off the English Church from Rome.

That is possible, although it's impossible to tell. It's important to bear in mind that Henry didn't make the Church of England Protestant in a theological sense: he simply took over control from the Pope. Left to his own devices I should think he'd have kept the church pretty much identical apart from the leadership, since his purpose was only to authorise his own divorce. It was his advisers such as Cranmer who were influenced by Luther and who took this amazing opportunity to rebuild the new church in a Lutheran way. The question really is this: without Henry's actions, would Cranmer and those like him ever have had the opportunity to "Lutheranise" the church in England? Or would Lutheran or Reformed churches have replaced the Catholic Church there as they did in other parts of Europe? Personally I suspect that it wouldn't have happened: I think that the English were and still are too conservative, especially in religious matters, for that to have happened. Without a dramatic catalyst such as Henry's divorce it seems to me more likely that England would have carried on rather like Ireland. Although you never know: perhaps it would have followed the model of Scotland. Perhaps the Reformed church would have made major inroads in the north, while the south would have remained more Catholic. Or, alternatively, perhaps the English would have cheerily embraced one of the Protestant faiths if that meant annoying the French.

Possibly. The first few years of Elizabeth's reign were a real struggle because of the religious in-fighting. I think the timing was also right. This was an age of discovery and the new world beckoned for England. Her focus was less on Europe, Rome and the old world and the single Church of England under the authority of the English monarch was an important symbolic move - if not spiritual.

Probably true- after all, the current Anglican Church is fairly similar to the Catholic Church as it is- at least compared to Presbyterian or Lutheran denominations- and even then that's after the influence of more puritanical Protestants during the 16th/17th centuries.

I read they were going to establish some sort of link with the Catholic Church again. Don't know the exact details.

Here's a ring with portraits of Anne and Elizabeth:

http://tudorhistory.org/groups/ring.jpg

Amazing.

Well did she actually achieve anything other than squeezing out a baby?

I really don't see what's so important about her.

I definitely do not think she got not enough attention. I think history is all over her... ;) I haven't checked but I do think you could find around 50 novels on her on amazon... I do also think that she has quite a big place in the British curriculum. And that's also where she belongs, she is English (British) history and isn't that important for other countries... (you'll probably never find her in the German curriculum for example)

mfG mick

Well, her picture is above the stairway at Hogwarts...

Well did she actually achieve anything other than squeezing out a baby?

I really don't see what's so important about her.

Well then maybe you should open your eyes and do some reading.

Anne had a deep interest in the Protestant movement taking shape in Europe. She used her convictions to advance herself as well as the Protestant cause. We talk about how great Elizabeth was for England but there wouldn't be an Elizabeth without Anne Boleyn and it's not just because she gave birth to her. It's because she got Henry to act.

To see how influential and important Anne Boleyn was, you really need to look at someone like Jane Seymour. Somebody like her would not have been able to convince Henry to annul his marriage. Legend has it that Anne Boleyn was the only woman (or man) who dared to speak back to Henry. She was very influential in getting what she wanted - Queen of England and thus giving England the opportunity to break away from Rome.

Another thing, they said that it was because of Anne Boleyn that the position of wives were more precarious than ever before. If a King a cast aside a wife and queen that has done no wrong, any man can do the same. But the other side of the coin is this. Anne Boleyn was a woman who was a commoner. She rose from that to become a noble - Marquess of Pembroke - the first commoner to do so. And later, she became Queen consort. That, in itself, is more revolutionary for a woman than for her to be simply be content with her position and her status as a wife.

If anyone's interested, I mentioned that I read the novel "The Other Boleyn Girl" by Philippa Gregory - historical fiction based on Anne Boleyn, her sister and the Tudors. Now there is a film based on the novel and you can see the trailer here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axCxSAohKlA

I've read Philippa Gregory's novels as well. There seems to be much controversy over whether it was entirely Anne's idea to go after Henry, or whether it was her male relatives (father and uncle) who put her up to it after they noticed that she had caught Henry's interest. Or was it some combination... that Anne had her own agenda, but was obliged at least in part to follow her family's dictates to make sure she became Queen (and in so doing, advance the standing of the Boleyn family)?

BTW, CBC (in Canada) is currently showing "The Tudors" -- a miniseries about Henry, Katherine of Aragon, and Anne. Have you seen it?

Hi there.

well, I'm not exactly a fan of Phillipa Gregory- I believe her books are a lot of hype over very little. The Other Boleyn Girl exaggerates Anne's dark side, dissolves her good side, and brings up accusations no historians(today) seriously believes-the accusation that she and her brother George had sex, for instance.

I've read Philippa Gregory's novels as well. There seems to be much controversy over whether it was entirely Anne's idea to go after Henry, or whether it was her male relatives (father and uncle) who put her up to it after they noticed that she had caught Henry's interest. Or was it some combination... that Anne had her own agenda, but was obliged at least in part to follow her family's dictates to make sure she became Queen (and in so doing, advance the standing of the Boleyn family)?



Personally, I believe none of the above.

I think no one, not even a genius revolutionary like Anne, could possibly for see that Henry would be willing to put away his loyal wife of 20 years with major political power for an insignificant second daughter of Anne Boleyn. And I think it's a touch unrealistic that Anne would risk all of her families' wealth(she had enormous pride in her family) and power that she established by angering the King.

As far as her parents/uncle manipulating her: I really, really dislike this theory and wish it wasn't so prominent among the historical fiction-ers. First of all, Anne wasn't the victim type. Even in her last seventeen days she kept a composed state any time she was in public and refused to be manipulated. She did her own thing-not even her husband, the king, could tame her. And the idea that the Boleyn family would get much of anything from Anne being his mistress isn't exactly accurate--the Boleyn's were already prominent at court and when Mary Boleyn(Anne's sister) slept with Francis of France the family was mortified-I'd assume they'd be mortified if she slept with Henry, too. Mistresses were not respected and as a result mistresses' families were not respected.

So-what do I think happened? I believe Anne was genuine in her original refusal of Henry. She didn't want to be the discarded mistress, bring the shame to her family, plus she had a relatively chaste reputation(so chaste the King of France troubled to write to her father about it). Poet Thomas Wyatt spoke of her rejection of him. I think it would only be characteristic of her to elude Henry at first.

However, Anne was smart and I think she caught on when Henry was all the more hot for her. Perhaps she saw she could possibly get something out of it, like a good marraige or something. I don't think the thought of Queenship crossed her mind until Henry thought of it.



I have nothing but the utmost upstanding respect for Anne. She was a revolutionary and a politician, and her personality is just plain captivating.

Henry was definitely immoral and a tyrant. The irony, of course, is that Elizabeth his, unwanted, daughter became the greatest monarch of his country. That's a victory for Anne Boleyn in the end. Be careful about giving her too much credit, though. The Tudor "dynasty" ended with that daughter, after all.

England was always going to become protestant sooner or later. I think the whole Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn thing just spearheaded it. I'm not convinced that this is true. Rome always had a love affair of sorts with England, as the English had supported the Papacy, even at its most orthodox moments. In fact, one can even argue that the support of England helped establish the Bishops of Rome as the heads of the western church. I think this attitude also led to a feeling of betrayal for Henry --- like the Pope owed him the divorce he wanted.

I've read Philippa Gregory's novels as well. There seems to be much controversy over whether it was entirely Anne's idea to go after Henry, or whether it was her male relatives (father and uncle) who put her up to it after they noticed that she had caught Henry's interest. Or was it some combination... that Anne had her own agenda, but was obliged at least in part to follow her family's dictates to make sure she became Queen (and in so doing, advance the standing of the Boleyn family)?

BTW, CBC (in Canada) is currently showing "The Tudors" -- a miniseries about Henry, Katherine of Aragon, and Anne. Have you seen it?

They're not showing it in Australia yet. I'll watch it if and when they show it. This is the one with Jonathan Rhys-Meyers as Henry right?

As for the controversy, like many things, it's probably a mix of everything.

Hi there.

well, I'm not exactly a fan of Phillipa Gregory- I believe her books are a lot of hype over very little. The Other Boleyn Girl exaggerates Anne's dark side, dissolves her good side, and brings up accusations no historians(today) seriously believes-the accusation that she and her brother George had sex, for instance.



Personally, I believe none of the above.

I think no one, not even a genius revolutionary like Anne, could possibly for see that Henry would be willing to put away his loyal wife of 20 years with major political power for an insignificant second daughter of Anne Boleyn. And I think it's a touch unrealistic that Anne would risk all of her families' wealth(she had enormous pride in her family) and power that she established by angering the King.

As far as her parents/uncle manipulating her: I really, really dislike this theory and wish it wasn't so prominent among the historical fiction-ers. First of all, Anne wasn't the victim type. Even in her last seventeen days she kept a composed state any time she was in public and refused to be manipulated. She did her own thing-not even her husband, the king, could tame her. And the idea that the Boleyn family would get much of anything from Anne being his mistress isn't exactly accurate--the Boleyn's were already prominent at court and when Mary Boleyn(Anne's sister) slept with Francis of France the family was mortified-I'd assume they'd be mortified if she slept with Henry, too. Mistresses were not respected and as a result mistresses' families were not respected.

So-what do I think happened? I believe Anne was genuine in her original refusal of Henry. She didn't want to be the discarded mistress, bring the shame to her family, plus she had a relatively chaste reputation(so chaste the King of France troubled to write to her father about it). Poet Thomas Wyatt spoke of her rejection of him. I think it would only be characteristic of her to elude Henry at first.

However, Anne was smart and I think she caught on when Henry was all the more hot for her. Perhaps she saw she could possibly get something out of it, like a good marraige or something. I don't think the thought of Queenship crossed her mind until Henry thought of it.



I have nothing but the utmost upstanding respect for Anne. She was a revolutionary and a politician, and her personality is just plain captivating.

A very interesting perspective. Thank you.

I agree that the Gregory novel exaggerated Anne's dark side. And I did not buy the incestuous relationships at all. But after all, it is fiction. :) I did enjoy it though.

And I absolutely agree. She was definitely a revolutionary and politician; she doesn't get enough credit.

Oh Plotinus. You're such a theologian.

All anyone needs to know about lovely ol' Anne is as follows:

In the Tower of London, large as life,
The ghost of Ann Boleyn walks, they declare.
Poor Ann Boleyn was once King Henry's wife -
Until he made the Headsman bob her hair!
Ah yes! he did her wrong long years ago,
And she comes up at night to tell him so.

With her head tucked underneath her arm
She walks the Bloody Tower!
With her head tucked underneath her arm
At the Midnight hour -

She comes to haunt King Henry, she means giving him 'what for',
Gad Zooks, she's going to tell him off for having spilt her gore.
And just in case the Headsman wants to give her an encore
She has her head tucked underneath her arm!

With her head tucked underneath her arm
She walks the Bloody Tower!
With her head tucked underneath her arm
At the Midnight hour.

Along the draughty corridors for miles and miles she goes,
She often catches cold, poor thing, it's cold there when it blows,
And it's awfully awkward for the Queen to have to blow her nose
With her head tucked underneath her arm!

Sometimes gay King Henry gives a spread
For all his pals and gals - a ghostly crew.
The headsman carves the joint and cuts the bread,
Then in comes Ann Boleyn to 'queer' the 'do';
She holds her head up with a wild war whoop,
And Henry cries 'Don't drop it in the soup!'

With her head tucked underneath her arm
She walks the Bloody Tower!
With her head tucked underneath her arm
At the Midnight hour.

The sentries think that it's a football that she carries in,
And when they've had a few they shout 'Is Ars'nal going to win?'
They think it's Alec James, instead of poor old Ann Boleyn
With her head tucked underneath her arm!

With her head tucked underneath her arm
She walks the Bloody Tower!
With her head tucked underneath her arm
At the Midnight hour.

One night she caught King Henry, he was in the Canteen Bar.
Said he 'Are you Jane Seymour, Ann Boleyn or Cath'rine Parr?
For how the sweet san fairy ann do I know who you are
With your head tucked underneath your arm!'

I love this version here: http://youtube.com/watch?v=hiR5o8-jLjA