The story of Kheldon Ki in Bambur's civilopedia entry, and how he carved dwarves from stone to keep him company during his imprisonment, is the greatest origin story I've ever heard. Brilliant myth-making.

I'm sure you have all this planned in future releases, but it is precisely this sort of backstory that sets FFH apart, and needs to be emphasized beyond an entry appearing in a too-small window in the civilopedia. You guys are great.

similar to tolkiens dwarf origins except tolkiens involved gods and a neat abraham type test of humility

I think it is a little more than similar, but it is still good :P

Anyone have a link to tolkiens dwarf origin story? My google-fu is weak and Im curious to see how similiar they are.

The Google-force has proven weak with me as well. Luckily I found my copy of the Silmarillion.

Thanks AA.

Neat, AA! Never read Tolkien's origin myth before. Still like Kael's better, though. ;)

The Silmarillion is required reading for fantasy authors IMHO.

The Silmarillion is required reading for fantasy authors IMHO.

The Silmarillion is required reading for those having problems falling asleep. ;)

Lol, I must admit it isn't the easiest book to get through, but neither is the LotR, and that is properly edited!

Lol, I must admit it isn't these easiest book to get through, but neither is the LotR, and that is properly edited!

Its easier the secound time through.

Can anyone recommend any good fantasy book (that is not LotR ;))? 80% of my gaming last year and half was FfH, so fantasy became more appealing to me :) Possibly something that is not too obscure, so that it is translated to Croatian.

Best books I have ever read (bar none) are Robert Jordan's "Wheel of Time" series. The series is huge (10,000 pages) so each of its major characters (about 10) are each fully fleshed out and become individual people. It also has a great backstory that keeps expanding without ever contradicting itself. If you love FfH's backstory you'll love this series. It's also a very popular series so it should be translated to Croatian.

WoT gets really boring halfway trough for most people, though. Myself included.

I reccomend George RR Martin's Song of Ice and Fire trilogy or anything by Robin Hobb. Hobb takes a very personal, character-based approach to storytelling, though - not all the epic scope world-changing plot of stories like FFH, LoTR, WoT or SoiF.

Martin is very good.. not much doing with mythical races in either of those series. If you want Epic ala WoT, but want an even better read, Goodkind's Sword of Truth series is about the same length, and I enjoy rereading it far more than WoT.
Tolkien is kind of the base of modern fantasy, and the first fantasy I ever read myself.. good way to break in I think.

Cheers!

Jordan might release the last book (the next one will be the last, right?) by the time you're done reading the dozen or so that have already been released, and there is more of a fantasy element there. Still, I just got done reading the four released books of A Song of Fire and Ice, and they're a really awesome read as well. Goodkind is also pretty good, but I haven't been keeping up with the Sword of Truth series lately.

I'd recommend Michael Stackpole's DragonCrown series and the Age of Discovery series.

My opinion on the Sword of Truth is it degrades in quality rapidly. The first book is really very good. The second book is pretty decent too. The third book is kind of a through away, and the fourth book isn't very good. The reason for this is Goodkind uses the same plot devices over and over again, with the same twists in the same places, and it gets very boring, very quickly. Once you have read the first book, you have read them all.

One of my favourite books ever is a pretty simple, pretty easy read called Master of Five Magics by Lyndon Hardy. The sequel isn't very good though (suffers from the same ails as the Sword of Truth series, among other things).

If you like a little comedy, Terry Pratchett is an absolute must, but I suppose whether it is worth reading for you would depend on how good the Croatian translator is.

As mentioned, you have to read Tolkien at some point. If LotR seems too daunting, try The Hobbit. The Hobbit is arguably the best fantasy book ever written and certainly better crafted, from a literary standpoint, than LotR. I think the accusation that it is merely a children's book is unfair and oversimplified.

Try Bakker's The Darkness that Comes Before. I have not gotten to it yet myself, but I have heard good things about it. It may not be available in Croatian yet though.

As mentioned, you have to read Tolkien at some point. If LotR seems too daunting, try The Hobbit. The Hobbit is arguably the best fantasy book ever written and certainly better crafted, from a literary standpoint, than LotR. I think the accusation that it is merely a children's book is unfair and oversimplified.


You can't really compare the two... they are so different. the hobbit is light and a much more easy read. LOTR is longer, more indepth, more philosophical, while the Silmarrion is interesting, but hard to read...



[offtopic]Know what else is hard to read? Les Miserable. not the musical, the actual french novel(s)...

[offtopic]Know what else is hard to read? Les Miserable. not the musical, the actual french novel(s)...

Maybe it is hard to read because you only have one of them?

BTW, you can compare anything, especially two books, of the same genre, by the same author, set in the same universe.

I'm not saying LotR is bad by any means. In fact, I think it is the best book ever written if you want to know the truth (hell, my usual handle is "Cuivienen," but it was already taken when I signed up here). All I'm saying is the Hobbit is more cohesive and better written, hence your "light" comment. LotR is much more complex, and I prefer complex, but the writing itself suffers a little because of that.

Also, the Silmarillion isn't a true novel. It is really a collection of notes and short stories detailing the history behind LotR (it is really not about the Silmarils). You don't read it per se, so much as read passages within it.

Maybe it is hard to read because you only have one of them?

BTW, you can compare anything, especially two books, of the same genre, by the same author, set in the same universe.

I'm not saying LotR is bad by any means. In fact, I think it is the best book ever written if you want to know the truth (hell, my usual handle is "Cuivienen," but it was already taken when I signed up here). All I'm saying is the Hobbit is more cohesive and better written, hence your "light" comment. LotR is much more complex, and I prefer complex, but the writing itself suffers a little because of that.

Also, the Silmarillion isn't a true novel. It is really a collection of notes and short stories detailing the history behind LotR (it is really not about the Silmarils). You don't read it per se, so much as read passages within it.


I'm not disagreeing with you in any way, here... i was just clearing it up for the others out there...

About Les miserable, i am just about to finish the second book.

Actually i disagree with you that the hobbit is more well written (unlike that) than the hobbit...

Hmmm...

*Looks at his name and the tree in his avatar*


Yeah... One guess on my stance on the works of JRR Tolkien :)


Oh and Silmarillion = History Book of a Fantasy World, not a novel really.


And like said before, if you want a more light-hearted fantasy, then Pratchett fer sure.

Actually i disagree with you that the hobbit is more well written (unlike that) than the hobbit...

Que?

BTW, it was meant to be a joke. It is "Les Miserables"

Oh and Silmarillion = History Book of a Fantasy World, not a novel really.

The same goes for The Book of Lost Tales. I particularly liked the one about Tuor's arrival in Gondolin.

They're good if one gets bored of our RL history.

Other nice Tolkien stuff: Tales from the Perilous Realm (unrelated to the LotR universe; or who knows... :) )

I never figured out why people are so infatuated with Tolkien. Sure, the guy did a lot of things FIRST - especially in respects to worldbuilding - but personally, I find he couldn't tell a decent worth crap. LotR works better as a sleeping aid than as an enjoyable story to me.

He just portrays everything in so boring a fashion. It doesn't feel real or even plausible, as I think good fantasy should. Eh, well.

Go Boks, all I can say is, 'All the great ideas have been used... "
I think that Goodkind changes his rhythm in Temple of the winds, and thelast 2 books have been phenomenal. That said...

Shadius, I kind of agree about Tolkien. Like I said before, he is kind of the progenitor of modern fantasy, which makes him worth reading. However, from a purely literary point of view, he isn't by any means great. But if you are a young, or new reader, particularly to fantasy, its worth the read. It isn't especially sophisticated, but that shouldn't pull it from the essential read list.

Terry Prachett is pretty great. His collaboration, Good Omens, I thought was quite good, and funny.

Another set of books that I think aren't necessarily brilliant literature, but probably should be on the essential read list: The Dragonlance saga, by Weiss and Hickman.

Cheers!

Anyone get into the Skystone books by Jack Wyte? I picked it up on a whim and totally fell in love. One the easiest entertaining reads I've thumbed through. Great prelude to a respectable lengthly series.

Or

Morgon LLywelyn's "Finn Mac Cool"

??

On topic,

Totally my opinion and subjective - think of Tolkien like wine. If you give a kid a glass of wine he or she will most likely spit it in your face. It's nasty, sour, bitter, whatever...but then you have a few bottles and :hammer2: WHAMO before you know it your watching Sideways and going to France.

Firelord by Parke Godwin is the same. Both works speak for themselves and have a unique style.

I guess the real issue is can one aquire the taste? If you can't, no worries, try beer or whiskey (whisky), or a work less dependant on a spechic atiptude of reader.

Myself - I hate wine and love Tolkien, but have learned not to take either lightly.

Go Boks, all I can say is, 'All the great ideas have been used... "
I think that Goodkind changes his rhythm in Temple of the winds, and thelast 2 books have been phenomenal.

It has nothing to do with someone else, somewhere in time having writen a similar story. My point is his stories are all the same AS EACH OTHER. Like I said, I thought Wizard's First Rule was great, but it is all down hill from there. Maybe the more recent ones are better, but Temple of the Winds killed it for me and so I will never find out. That book was horrific and I could barely bring myself to finish it. It started, happened and ended in the exact same way as all the others, with most of the same characters and a slightly different setting. Predictable, boring and a little insulting.


I never figured out why people are so infatuated with Tolkien. Sure, the guy did a lot of things FIRST - especially in respects to worldbuilding - but personally, I find he couldn't tell a decent worth crap. LotR works better as a sleeping aid than as an enjoyable story to me.

He just portrays everything in so boring a fashion. It doesn't feel real or even plausible, as I think good fantasy should. Eh, well.

Shadius, I kind of agree about Tolkien. Like I said before, he is kind of the progenitor of modern fantasy, which makes him worth reading. However, from a purely literary point of view, he isn't by any means great. But if you are a young, or new reader, particularly to fantasy, its worth the read. It isn't especially sophisticated, but that shouldn't pull it from the essential read list.

Wow, did you two completely miss the mark... The whole point is, "from a purely literary point of view," his writing is much, much better than most others. His popularity has nothing to do with him being "first," which isn't even true. It has to do with him being an excellent writer. Most fantasy writers are terrible at what they do, and hide their inabilities behind fantastical settings and creatures that they didn't even come up with themselves. This is exactly what sets him apart. I can understand if his style is a little above your head, but come on.

Funny.

You know; never once have I seen a Tolkien fan give valid reasons for actually liking any of Tolkien's work, and I honestly don't see how they could. His writing style is just plain tedious, and there's nothing particularly inspiring about his plot and characters. The only thing you can possibly congragulate the man on would be his setting - which I can appreciate, even though it's REALLY not my style.

I respect Tolkien for what he did for the gerne (elevating it from pulp status), but I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone could voluntarily want to read his work over and over again, or how it came to have that kind of impact in the first place.

Liking Tolkien just seems to be the "cool" thing to do; in some ways comparable to Star Wars. I never figured out what was supposed so good about that, either.

never once have I seen a Tolkien fan give valid reasons for actually liking any of Tolkien's work

I find that hard to believe. I reiterate my "over your head" comment...

I agree with you on Star Wars though. I like it, but it has a lot of holes (not least of which is the choice of actors for the entire Skywalker family - Luke and Leia are horrendous in the original trilogy, and Anakin is arguably worse in the new trilogy).

Since most of what I would suggest for reading has already been taken, I'll put in the Magic of Recluse by L. E. Modesit (I forget how to spell his last name.) I guess he realized he had a winner with it since he wrote a bazillion sequels that are all basically the same, but the first is, in my opinion, definately the best, and a very unique book.

Although it isn't a direct sequel in regards to time of publishing, one of the books in the series continues the story of the main character of the first.. the Death of Chaos, I think it was called.

Myself - I hate wine and love Tolkien.

You've got that completely backwards bud :)

Fantasy? Gone off it recently, except Pratchett (and Neil Gaiman - Good Omens is indeed brilliant), but I don't think anything really tops Earthsea - Ursula LeGuin's wizards are great, and the 4 books form a wonderful story. Can't recommend the original trilogy enough.

The Wheel of Time is also pretty good so long as you don't mind a bit of everything taking forever to happen - start now and he might just about have reached the end by the time you catch up :)

Funny.

You know; never once have I seen a Tolkien fan give valid reasons for actually liking any of Tolkien's work, and I honestly don't see how they could. His writing style is just plain tedious, and there's nothing particularly inspiring about his plot and characters. The only thing you can possibly congragulate the man on would be his setting - which I can appreciate, even though it's REALLY not my style.

I respect Tolkien for what he did for the gerne (elevating it from pulp status), but I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone could voluntarily want to read his work over and over again, or how it came to have that kind of impact in the first place.

Liking Tolkien just seems to be the "cool" thing to do; in some ways comparable to Star Wars. I never figured out what was supposed so good about that, either.

This comment was a little out of line. Let me be the first Tolkien fan to profess why I love Tolkien. As I said, such works as LOTR speak for themselves.

Example 1. Tolkien on the death penalty.

Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends.
J. R. R. Tolkien, The Lord Of the Rings, Book Four, Chapter One
British scholar & fantasy novelist (1892 - 1973)

Example 2. Tolkien on capitalist materialism

All that is gold does not glitter; not all those that wander are lost.
J. R. R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring, 1954
British scholar & fantasy novelist (1892 - 1973)

Example 3. Tolkien on the Puritan work ethic

It's a job that's never started that takes the longest to finish.

the list goes on and on and on...trust me..there's more famous Tolkien quotes than Goodkind, Jordan, Salvatore, or whoever put together. The writing was and is brillant - thus unique. You don't have to like it but you should respect it.

The Silmarillion is required reading for those having problems falling asleep. ;)

Worked for me, the silmarillion is required reading for those helping whith the ARDA mod, its here but no where :hmm:

Thanks for suggestions, I'm going to check it up in the library next time I'll have some free time (Too bad place where I live has only 20.000 ppl. and therefore not too big library)

Well, I'll be... I was SURE I was in the off-topic thread - damn you all for confusing me like that!

Forget about this post.

i think this thread might need to be renamed to "lets talk about fantasy books"

I'm practically shocked no one has mentioned Raymond E Feist's Riftwar series. I personally enjoy the original "Riftwar" and "Serpentwar" Sagas best, but all save the Krondor books are a solid read.

Another series that I've grown to enjoy is Jane Lindskold's "Firestarter" series. A Tarzan-esque plotline that never seems to grow dull.

While not strictly classic "fantasy", the Chronicles of Amber is another WELL written series (books 1-5 MUCH better then 6-10 tho).

Suprised no one said Dragonlance Chronicles o.O Or maybe they did and I need my brian checked. But I don't think they we're to amazing, but definately good.

Hmmm... Well... All that I have left to recomend now really is Frank Herbert, and he's Sci-Fi, not Fanatsy :P


I love the Dune novels.

If you happen to know Polish or find a translation to your native language then I recommend A. Sapkowski's "The Witcher" saga. ['Wiedźmin'] A nice rip off from Tolkien and added some of his flavour so it aint that 'pink and sweet'.

This is a very good saga, but I can't agree its rip off from Tolkien. In fact it's totally different in writing style, depicting the world, depicting heroes etc.
As for LoTR, it is very good - for a start. It was my first fantasy book (well, after Hobbit) and I kept reading it over and over again, but now, some 15 years later, I'm not that sure I'll read it again.

You know; never once have I seen a Tolkien fan give valid reasons for actually liking any of Tolkien's work, and I honestly don't see how they could. His writing style is just plain tedious, and there's nothing particularly inspiring about his plot and characters. The only thing you can possibly congragulate the man on would be his setting - which I can appreciate, even though it's REALLY not my style.

I've underlined what I consider the subjective parts and bolded the part of the message that seems to justify that subjectivity.

Do give valid arguments against if you're going to say those words I underlined, or admit that it's just your style that you're expressing and that you are thus subjective.

This is a very good saga, but I can't agree its rip off from Tolkien. In fact it's totally different in writing style, depicting the world, depicting heroes etc.

Well, for me it was obvious that it was a rip off :D Not strict a copy but a parody and a big gag :) Off course Sapkowski gave it much from his own imagination/our culture but the 'Tolkiens seed' is there. Hmmm, it is just a rip of from LOtR as 'Achaja' is a rip of 'The Witcher' saga ;)

I also heard that a book called 'The Ring' is quite good for fantasy but I did not had the chance to read it.
I can also recommend the Dragonlance books. Quite good, the world is interesting and you have dragons there :)

But I rather read sf than fantasy. Fantasy is for RPG playing, sf is for books.

Hmmm... Well... All that I have left to recomend now really is Frank Herbert, and he's Sci-Fi, not Fanatsy :P

Well, to quote the oft repeated mantra, that also has the unfortunate tendency to become a justification for booksellers to mix fantasy and Sci-fi: "Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. [A. Clarke]

"Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. [A. Clarke]

I hate that quote. It only applies to dimwits.

He does make sense. At some point, the average Joe's going to be in over his head trying to understand tech. Every tech advancement brings us closer to a Machine Cult.

I've underlined what I consider the subjective parts and bolded the part of the message that seems to justify that subjectivity.

Do give valid arguments against if you're going to say those words I underlined, or admit that it's just your style that you're expressing and that you are thus subjective.

Of course I'm being subjective. How can anyone NOT be when they're talking about what they do or do not enjoy? It's impossible to be entirely objective when you're trying to judge the quality of something - heck, there's people out there who like industrial music!

Tolkien's writing feels like he was trying to pen down an ancient saga, and I guess that might work for some people, but not me. I like my fantasy more "real" than that. LotR doesn't feel any more real or immersive to me than your average fairy tale or legends - interesting, perhaps, but not something you want to read a 1000+ pages about, especially not with Tolkien's writing style.

LotR just doesn't make me care, plainly and simply.

I seem to have similar conflicts with other popular fantasy. I won't even start on Ursula LeGuin and Steven Erikson, lest I find myself horrendously beaten to death with twelve-pound compendiums. At least I managed to bring myself to finish LotR.

Thanks, that's much better, with the use of the first person and all. Your initial post seemed way too much "from a higher point of authority", your mentioning the "valid reasons" also contributing to that feel.

And well, you might have noticed I'm a Tolkien fan and can't take anti-Tolkien criticism just like that :) So thanks for the clarification.

Shadius, you changed your tune rather quickly...

(OT: Arda mod(lotr) forum open) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=253)

(OT: Arda mod(lotr) forum open) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=253)

Congrats Thomas, Im excited to see what you guys come up with!

Shadius, you changed your tune rather quickly...

I didn't "change my tune". More like rephrasing my opinion in such a way that it won't enflame Tolkien fans. I'm still completely and utterly puzzled at how the man's work can be considered above mediocore. But as I said earlier; if there's people out there that like industrial music...

I didn't "change my tune". More like rephrasing my opinion in such a way that it won't enflame Tolkien fans. I'm still completely and utterly puzzled at how the man's work can be considered above mediocore. But as I said earlier; if there's people out there that like industrial music...

Im not a huge fan of tolkien, I've tried to read the books a few times and never made it through. That said I deeply appreciate the foundation he laid out for fantasy. I have read tons and tons about the source material Tolkien used, I know he didn't invent many of the archetypes he used.

But he did define modern fantasy. He gave us a complete world which drew from mythology but was a new work. He created the journey epic (a vast story largely concerned with travel through various challenges) for modern readers. And although this format was used in tales as old as the Iliad its easy to see that Tolkien was the inspiration for nearly all of the fantasy journey epics that followed.

I don't think the Eye of the World series would have existed without Tolkien. In a lot of ways people are trying to recreate the characters and experience of middle-earth. D&D pulled so much from him, and although Tolkien didnt invent the concept of elves its easy to see that D&D elves share more in common with Tolkiens version than german folklore.

Its hard to imagine a modern fantasy world that doesn't draw something from Tolkien (as well as greek, norse and egyptian mythology even if they dont know that is the source of their material). I make every effort to avoid popular fantasy sources like Tolkien, but his fingerprints are everywhere. Rangers, Trents, Giant Spiders, Elves as archers, Dwarves as scottish speaking warriors, and even the inspiration way back to create a world that was all my own (now shared). Personally most of my inspiration came from D&D, but I know that Tolkien wasn't far off.

So I deeply respect what he did, but as you said, Im not a huge fan of the writing. It should be said that I think he was an amazing wordsmith, some of his descriptions and paragraphs are works of art (and no doubt why he captured the imagination of so many). Its the pacing that I dislike, its just to slow and lavish for my personal taste.

I reccomend George RR Martin's Song of Ice and Fire trilogy.

Love Books. Took the advice and picked up Martins first book in the Song of Ice and Fire series, and it is awesome. WoT is also great, (read am all and am waiting for the last one:mad: ). Didn't notice em dragging at all. Tolkiens LotR triligy isn't loved for his writing skill alone, the plot is full of intrigue and struggle between good and evil. It made it into the movies, I feel, specifically because of that! Oh, and my contribution to the must read list is Michelle West, author of Hunters Oath and Hunters Death, (and other books that I have not read). Anyway, enjoy. Oh, and Kael, you seem to have a penchant for the pen, why not write something yourself? Your universe is certainly interesting enough. :goodjob:

Congrats Thomas, Im excited to see what you guys come up with!

Thanks, Kael...

coming from you, that means alot ;)

One thing not stealed from tolkien is Evil the octupus religon... :smug:

Reminds me of the Watcher (I think that's its name) from the entrance to the mines of Moria

NO!

The watcher is not holy :smug: he's just a... Watcher :p

Yes but the mass of tentacle goodness all just writhing around trying to stab one through all of one's bodily orifices (shame on you!) is very much similar to the mass of tentacles with a tip in every person's dream.

Oi, don't start drawing parallels between Lord of the Rings and Japanese cartoons catering to particular... tastes.

It kind of hurts my mind to think of the watcher in that way. Eeeew.

Was I drawing parallels or was I just vividly describing the fight scene:crazyeye:

Yes but the mass of tentacle goodness all just writhing around trying to stab one through all of one's bodily orifices (shame on you!) is very much similar to the mass of tentacles with a tip in every person's dream.
I have one last thought...

Shame on you!

Shame on you for saying shame on you

I am shamed :blush:

Im a bit late to this thread I guess but I have to concur with the thoughts on Tolkien being a bit boring. Sign of the times when he wrote them though and the reason he wrote them. Still enjoyable reads I just feel a lot better writers and novels have picked up his legacy and bettered it. A bit like modern PC's being much better than the early punch card cryptography devices. Bottom line all modern fantasy owes Tolkien a debt.

Either way im very surprised no one has mentioned Warhammer. Especially when someone asked for recommendations on books to read. The Gotrek and Felix novels by William King are classic low brow pulp fantasy by a decent writer. You also dont need to know anything about Warhammer to enjoy them. David Gemmel (RIP) is also conspicuous by his absence. Just about any Gemmel novel is classic fantasy at its best. You also have Rober E Howard (Conan), Feist, Eddings, Pratchett, McCaffery etc there are hundreds of good fantasy writers.

Back on topic though, the majority of the completed fluff for FFH is good IMHO.

Im a bit late to this thread I guess but I have to concur with the thoughts on Tolkien being a bit boring. Sign of the times when he wrote them though and the reason he wrote them. Still enjoyable reads I just feel a lot better writers and novels have picked up his legacy and bettered it. A bit like modern PC's being much better than the early punch card cryptography devices. Bottom line all modern fantasy owes Tolkien a debt.

[gets out soapbox]

I think you need to be careful when throwing around terms like 'better writer', Corm. I also take issue with the punch card versus modern PC analogy (as Tolkein himself would, no doubt :lol: )

A lot of writers have taken Tolkien's ideas and repackaged them for a modern audience. David Eddings is a great example; he's taken the fantasy travel narrative and made is more accessible to modern reading tastes; adding more dialog and humor, removing the 'boring' elements like Tolkien's poetry. And he's sold a ton of books doing it.

Do that make him a better writer? Hardly. But he understands his audience, and gives them what they want. Again. And again. And again.

It's true that Tolkien's work is less accessible today than modern fantasy, but that's true of just about any historical work. Considering that he wrote in a style that was anitquated at the time, it's no wonder that a lot of people can't make it through the LotR trilogy, even though the all three books are shorter than the average Goodkind book (don't get me started on that guy).

[puts soapbox away]

I'd like to add Micheal Moorcock (Elric, Corum, etc) and Fritz Lieber (Fafhrd and Grey Mouser) to our growing list of 'must-read' fantasy authors. Both authors portray a dark fantasy world that blends well with a lot of the FfH back story. Plus both favor short novel with concise chapters, great for some quick lunch reading :goodjob:

Lastly, anyone have some good suggestions while we wait for Martin's Dance of Dragons to arrive? I'm afraid he's ruining me for most modern fantasy.

What to do while waiting for Dance of Dragons? Re-read the other four books. Heck, it's what I'm doing. :D

What to do while waiting for Dance of Dragons? Re-read the other four books. Heck, it's what I'm doing. :D

Good idea, but I've read them all twice (at least), as well as the Dunk and Egg stories. I'd like to shift my obsessive behavior to another series, but I'm finding it difficult at the moment.

I tried Erikson's Malazan series, but it just wasn't working for me. I tried another Feist book, but it was just his usual plot line in a new suit.

I've just started the Le Guin's Earthsea Cycle, a series I've neglected and which I'm enjoying so far; probably because it's on the other end of the fantasy spectrum from Martin's work.

Ok ok replace "better" with "more entertaining in a modern high fantasy stylee"

:lol:

I dont disagree with you. Poor choice of words on my part.

I second the GRR Martin and Le Guin recommendations, but there's a hell of a lot of good stuff not mentioned yet:

Steven Brust's Vlad Taltos series - describing the life of a wisecracking assassin and mob boss in a fantasy world.

Glen Cook's Black Company books - chronicles of a mercenary company in a high-magic world, not always on the side of 'good'.

PC Hodgell's Kencyr series (starting with Godstalk) - probably the most underappreciated series currently going (but probably also the slowest. 4 books in ~30 years so far)

Lois McMaster Bujold's Chalion books.

Roger Zelazny - Lord of Light (Eastern religion in a blend of sci-fi and fantasy, and the Amber series. (And pretty much everything else he's written)

And straying a bit more from Epic fantasy:

China Mieville's New Crobuzon books - Sort of a Fantasy equivalent of the industrial revolution. Not for the weak of stomach - I'm not sure that theres a bodily fluid he hasn't used.

Guy Gavriel Kay - sort of alternate history, transplanted to a fantasy world. Excellently written.

Tim Powers - Puts more ideas into each novel than most authors use in a lifetime, and does it excellently. Mostly writes secret histories, creating a supernatural expanation around historical anomalies and facts. I have yet to read a better time-travelling werewolf ancient egyptian sorcerer novel than the Anubis Gates.

Yeah brianm!

I agree with your suggestion

Roger Zelazny made a great serie withe the amber prince , but it was eclipsed by dune.
If you're looking for fantasy with a machiavelian spirit , its for you

Glen cook -black compagny
For me its the best dark fantasy book , you mentioned high magic but i somewhat disagree , yes magic is the ultimate power in the book but its only used by really few people. Its mostly a book about steel.
This book is perfect if you want to follow band of brother in a badass way in a dark fantasy world

Then there is conan , if you're looking for epic stuff in barbarian ages

And also david gemmel.. sure he always make a lot of stuff , its always the same story , but on his hundred book 2 are really good : legend and the serie around parmenion

You guys are such nerds :lol:

way to completely derail a thread about my favorite hero unit (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=5380216#post5380216).

not nerds, bibliophiles.

there's a fine line between the two ;)

I've got to third the recommendation for Glen Cook's Black Company series and I agree it is definitely not high magic in the way i think of that phrase. It is all about low magic and that is what i love about it. There are a few ubermages but the main characters fear them and do their best to hide, manipulate, or ambush them as they know they would be squashed by them in a direct fight. Most of the action that takes place makes use of very intelligent mundane tactics sometimes mixed in with some minor magic used creatively. In that way it is the opposite of high magic, wizards are very rare and there are almost no 'magic items'. The books are dark and dirty with herioc characters not always acting heroically, but always in character. Lots of shades of gray. Epic war described from the grunt's perspective. Oh, and he kills main characters.
My take on the first (and best) book's plot: mercenary band gets hired by the equivalent of one of the Nazgul to fight a war on a continent they are unfamiliar with. They only have a loose idea of what they are fighting for and who when hired and spend most of the rest of the book rationalizing 'yeah, we are fighting on the bad guy/girl's side, but hey, we are mercenaries and
the other side isn't all that nice either.
He also does some fantastic stuff writing fantasy in a non-european setting in the last 4 or 5 books. The setting seems heavily influenced by India. Very interesting.

Now that i've caused most of you (if you are anything like me) to skim and skip my entry i'll say that my other favorite series is Martin's Song of Fire and Ice. Beautiful stuff.

My only problem with Tolkien is that he can take 7 pages describing the color of grass in a field and 2 paragraphs describing a major battle. Yeah, pacing. Btw, i loved the Similarian but find the Hobbit too childlike/folktaleish.

I've thus far avoided Wheel of Time because i've heard the story slows down immensely in the middle books and i also strongly dislike destiny type stuff. I like things more unpredictable. I've briefly played the RPG though and i really enjoyed the flavor of the magic system.

- feydras

My only problem with Tolkien is that he can take 7 pages describing the color of grass in a field and 2 paragraphs describing a major battle. Yeah, pacing.
Hah, that's exactly my opinion on the subject.
I've thus far avoided Wheel of Time because i've heard the story slows down immensely in the middle books and i also strongly dislike destiny type stuff.

Ah, yeah, that reminds me of a point I wanted to bring up. The way that prophecy is dealt with in ASoIaF is really awesome, compared to Wheel of Time or really any other book series I've read. It's used sparingly, but ends up still being so... I'm not sure how to describe it, but it really gets your heart racing and your mind engaged.

My only problem with Tolkien is that he can take 7 pages describing the color of grass in a field and 2 paragraphs describing a major battle.


That is so completely unfounded, it is ridiculous. In my experience, Tolkien devotes several chapters to major battles, and I've never seen him use 7 pages on anything trivial. Maybe we are reading different editions?

I understand you are trying to be funny, but that is completely baseless.

That is so completely unfounded, it is ridiculous. In my experience, Tolkien devotes several chapters to major battles, and I've never seen him use 7 pages on anything trivial. Maybe we are reading different editions?

I understand you are trying to be funny, but that is completely baseless.

Heh, I think someone struck a nerve. :mischief:

Lol, I tried not to sound like a whiny fan boy, but I wasn't very successful...

Elfen from Bernhard Hennen - no idea if they are translated in other languages than german already. It's a fantastic saga it has Elfs, Trolls, Human Religous Fanatics, Nordics (like the one in FFH), love drama and a great writing style.

For me this has removed LotR from it's throne.

I liked the silmarillion more anyway :)

The Jesters are atleast not in LOTR...

Ahhh, religious fanatics, cursed by a form of freudian envy

suggestions for books, no prob.

bakker's the darkness that comes before was only mentioned once, it deserves another. its a trilogy that isnt dumbed down like most fantasy is these days.

erikson's malazan series is another good one, in that it is not dumbed down, and is done as realistically as possible for a book with magic and gods. however, he leaves you to figure things out for yourself a lot, and the books jump around in time a bit. both of which can be good if you can follow it, or annoying otherwise.

weis and hickman are known for their work in dragonlance... but their death gate cycle was -much- better.

and i cant believe no one has even mentioned gene wolfe. one of my favorites, though it can be hard to follow at times. start with the book of the new sun.

there is a lot more of course, and my personal preferences and biases are probably obvious. hell, i even like industrial music. but thats a good start, and most of those at least use an interesting twist on the (usually stale) genre.

What's the verdict on Terry Pratchett? I bought a book of his today, sourcery, my first so far. Funny enough, so far.

Its pretty good...

Pratchett is great.

Cosmic Turtles, mmm....

*Not that I've read him or anything. I just know about it.

I have read Pratchett in 3 languages so far :) It is fun even in German. ;)
"Small gods" are teh best.

He writes his books in a simple schema so you might say if you read 4 of them you read them all but I still want to read the next one for the humour and gags.

"Good omen" made me laugh so hard my belly hurt.

I like Eric, it's so fun when that clumcy wizard take him...

IMO Silmarilion is way better then LotR. The two are paralel though. If you look through the 2, several themes are repeated, and characters reused. Ungoliant the spider, and the 2 lovers who sacrifice immortality to be together are examples.

Rex rgis of Ter and your Thread Necromancy!! >_<

Well, now that the beast is awaken, I think I will add to the off-topicness of this thread.

I'm reading Wheel of Time now, I'm only on the fourth book of the Swedish translation, which is the 2nd half of the 2nd book in English I believe. And I really like it. I wish I had a better place to sit when I read, cause my bed isn't the best place to sit for long, and the place I've been reading the most at isn't really the best smelling place.

I also liked David Eddings The Belgariad series and the followup series The Mallorean. I also liked Belgarath the Sorcerer the prequel kinda book. And I haven't read Polgara the Sorceress, but I bet I would have liked it back then.

I never got into the Elenium and it seemed to be at a slower pace and less interesting story to me or something, so I never finished the first book.

But The Belgariad series was such an easy read to me back then I had never read so many books in one summer. (and I don't read as much as I did then now either)

The story of Kheldon Ki in Bambur's civilopedia entry, and how he carved dwarves from stone to keep him company during his imprisonment, is the greatest origin story I've ever heard. Brilliant myth-making.

I'm sure you have all this planned in future releases, but it is precisely this sort of backstory that sets FFH apart, and needs to be emphasized beyond an entry appearing in a too-small window in the civilopedia. You guys are great.
Shifting away from the major discussion going on in this topic and back to the original post, I agree. Reading through the civilopedia entries was quite interesting, particularly character backstories (like Barnaxus's for example). But even the entries for some units and spells are interesting (like Summon Chaos Marauder and Repair).

It is a bit of a shame that the backstory doesn't have much of an impact on the game, but at the end of the day, FfH2 is a strategy game at the heart of it and there's only so much impact rich lore can have.

I don't know if anyone of u has read the Wars of Shadow and Light from Janny Wurts? That series certainly is one of the better fantasy out there cause it doesnt need to use elves and dwarves to make great fantasy. ( dont get me wrong fantasy with dwarves and elves is great too! ) I has quite a dark story where the forces of light get cursed and overzealous in their search for the so called 'evil' master of shadow who is in fact a very gentle and 'good' man. The real evil lurks in the minds of the protagonists and the people of the world because of a curse from something called the mistwraith. 7 immortal sorcerors of which only a few remain fully capable, guard the world from these evil spirits and at the same time work towards the restoration of the original inhabitants of the world, the paravians ( the humans sought refuge on the planet a long long time ago when it had spacefaring capabilities )

Bakkers trilogy of the prince of nothing is very good IMO since its very unconventional and full of new ideas.

Pratchett is and stays a very good writer with class humor :)

Other writers such as Feist, Goodkind and the Eddings make very readable and enjoyable fantasy even though its not quite unconventional.
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back on the subject here= FfH2 just rules, great lore! So when are u guys going to write novels based on this world? :D

back on the subject here= FfH2 just rules, great lore! So when are u guys going to write novels based on this world? Look instead for quality scenarios detailing the world. If you like AoI, you'll love the completed version of FfH 2.

@nikis-knight: that certainly was in my planning :)
beyond the sword is next on the buy-list