Would you agree to moving Turk spawn from 1070AD (Seljuk Turks entering Anatolia: it's a date in a crowded time, very close to Mali and Inca) to 1300AD (rise of Ottomans)?

Yes, I agree. :)

Does the date of it's current spawn interfere with something?

nothing in particular.
UHV deadlines are 1500 (for controlling Istanbul) and 1700+ for the other 2. They mau become a little more difficult.

Yup, i agree :) 1300AD...

Sure thing, boss.

I support this. I'm playing a game as the Turks right now, and I really got the feeling that I'm there too early. Pushing their spawn back would give the rest of the civs (particularly Arabia) a bit more time to develop and shine.

Well even though the chances of a Byzantine like state existing in Anatolia in Rhyes is very slim I'd still like to see the Turks make their correct entrance into the game by kicking the crap out of who ever is occupying Anatolia in 1070. Saying the Seljuk Turks are different a civ to the Ottoman Turks is like saying the Greeks that appear in 1600 BCE are a different civ to the Greeks lead by Alexander in 336 BCE.

nothing in particular.

In that case, it doesn't matter to me either way.

If your call them Ottomans again - I mean, England*controversial* China gets to have their glory, but China is actually derived from Qin, the state which Ying Zheng (later, Shi Huangdi/Qin Shi Huang) controlled (see Unification of China Scenario) and used to conquer the other states. It could easily have become "Wu" instead of "China," given the right circumstances.

Also, the Ottomans should have more military (duh). Cannon to bust Byzantine, if that's not anachronistic.

...you can scrap the cannon if you give them Otters, though. Ottoman Otters. :)

I agree also, and about the Wu thing, I think it would be intersting to have say the wu and the confederate stated of america in as extra civs, but have them in a locked war with the other ones, for a bit of alt history. (again something I want to do this summer...)

Pushing their spawn back would give the rest of the civs (particularly Arabia) a bit more time to develop and shine.

In other words, pushing their spawn back will make the Turks even weaker than they already are.

I can't say I support this change on those grounds. :/

Yeah, cos I never see Turkey as number 1 on the list and arabia is never a broken wreck of its former self:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

That's why the Ottomans will be given a kick-ass military war-machine which will completely eat its treasury until it starts ransacking those gold-rich cities. :thumbsup:

I agree also, and about the Wu thing, I think it would be intersting to have say the wu and the confederate states of America in as extra civs, but have them in a locked war with the other ones, for a bit of alt history. (again something I want to do this summer...)

Not only the Wu - there are the other five states to consider. The Confederacy. Add in the Seljuk Turks. This will lead to an innumerable number of "Civs" which will lead to rigid gameplay and intolerable waiting times.

Seven States in China, the Mongolian clans, the Japanese natives, the Malaysian Civs, North and South Korea, North and South Vietnam, the Russian princedoms, the Scots, the Irish, the other kingdoms in Great Britain, the Free French and the Vichy French, the weak/small states in Europe, the many tribes of Africa (many different Natives "civs"), the German states, Canada and Australia, the French and their revolutions, the many small kingdoms...

I think it's already well represented by the barbs, indies, natives, and civics (yes, civics - before Nationhood, a Civ is just a conglomerate of tribes/states working together for each other's benefit; think about it).

And I feel like a :king: . :scan: A robot king. :crazyeye: (that's another state to add! So many "civs," so little computing power).

Yeah, cos I never see Turkey as number 1 on the list and arabia is never a broken wreck of its former self

No need for sarcasm. In my games Turkey is among the weakest nations, but this is a good point:

That's why the Ottomans will be given a kick-ass military war-machine which will completely eat its treasury until it starts ransacking those gold-rich cities.

so I might as well abstain.

I ment that if they are locked in war only one of each "pair" would servive...

No need for sarcasm. In my games Turkey is among the weakest nations, but this is a good point

The world needs more sarcasm.

But of course. I shall retract my statement immediately!

Ah, two things are being discussed and I have gotten confused. About the sacasm I am sorry but I had just spent 3 hours in a library so I felt kinda *****y...

Call me psycho, but maybe with a later spawn Turkey should be gifted Babylonian cities and their cultural borders. The reasoning is simple: Babylonia is mildly anachronistic, be it 1070 or 1300. Also, the main power in the area, controlling everything east of Anatolia is the Ilkhanate, their cousins. Givibg Turkey these lands could give them an edge. Oh, and if you're playing as Babylon, then you'll automatically be switched to Turkey AND you get a freebie switch for later, since you were forced into this. Just a crazy thought...

(the nurses are trying to pin me down... ahh, how i love... being... sedated...)

Call me psycho, but maybe with a later spawn Turkey should be gifted Babylonian cities and their cultural borders. The reasoning is simple: Babylonia is mildly anachronistic, be it 1070 or 1300. Also, the main power in the area, controlling everything east of Anatolia is the Ilkhanate, their cousins. Givibg Turkey these lands could give them an edge. Oh, and if you're playing as Babylon, then you'll automatically be switched to Turkey AND you get a freebie switch for later, since you were forced into this. Just a crazy thought...

Yes, and let's make the Islamic missionaries invisible so they can spread the religion as far as it has gone in real life.


Yay for sarcasm day!

Honestly, no need to bother as long as you give them a larger, more modern military. Arabia is always behind in techs either because it has crappy terrain or expanded so far that their economy is shot. Turkey should be able to run them over with cannons.

Why did you post the sensible part of your post in mini-letters? I almost missed it...

I actually like this idea, however it would put arabia off invading Bagdad...

Why did you post the sensible part of your post in mini-letters? I almost missed it...

I'm a comedian first, philosopher second.

(the nurses are trying to pin me down... ahh, how i love... being... sedated...)

yes, tie him down! :p

I actually like this idea, however it would put arabia off invading Bagdad...

You have a point...

what about having the Turks start where they actually were first recorded, Central Asia? That area is ALWAYS undersettled IMO and it is COMPLETELY important historically- the areas on the rivers and desert oasi(whats the plural of oasis? :p) created very civilized culture which was/is grossly under-recognized. Then the player can conquer whatever as part of empire-building? I think it would solve the UP problem (change back to the old UP? sorry Rhye :( don't mean to add work) and also the "Ottoman" problem, since they would be a generic ethnogenesis like the "Germans" or "Greeks"- I know this isn't even a problem as of now, but no one could argue it's wrong.

I'll just spam one of my favorite maps to explain what I'm talking about and whereabouts. I'm thinking of the Wester Turk area of Central Asia for the spawn, so the Mongols won't be overcrowded- somewhere like Samarkand which could be a good stepping stone for invasion of Persia.

PS- it may not be preferrable to do what I suggest, but I just thought I'd throw the idea out there :)

Türk is not the same as Turk.

yes, that's very true- but they're not unrelated... Aren't language specific characters unused in Rhyes? I can understand if certain people have problems with that association, which would be an argument for NOT doing it.

I dont think they should necessarily spread that far east in the game, although the Turks and Mongols did mix ethnicities quite a bit for a large period of time...

I do however think it would be a good idea tohave them start in central asia, however the tarrain would need improving (i.e. some grassland to represent the steppes...)

If we go placing the Turks in central Asia we'll be placing them at a time before they were unified into a state. If you go placing the Turks in Central Asia a few hundred years before they spawn now you'll have to allow Germany to spawn 2000 or so years earlier in Scandinavia. Plus Turks in central Asia will never form an Empire similar to the Ottomans or the Seljuk's of Rum.

what's the plural of oasis?

Oasis, n. (Plural: oases)

:p

So it comes from the greek not the latin? interesting...

El Chimpo está correcto.

Etymology
Greek ὄασις, from Egyptian.


Pronunciation
ō-ā'sĭs, /əʊˈeɪsɪs/, /@U"eIsɪs/
Rhymes: -eɪsɪs
ō-ā'səs, /əʊˈeɪsəs/, /@U"eIs@s/
Rhymes: -eɪsəs

Noun
oasis (Plural: oases)

A well surrounded by vegetation in a desert.

10charlimit

I was playing as the arabs and I had an idea, because the current UP is very unfair to civs near the Turks how about if it changes to turkish cities retaining culture in captured cities? This way it is a little fairer and meens you can still fight thier culture like you do with other civs...

what about having the Turks start where they actually were first recorded, Central Asia? ...

The problem is that your capital city and the heart of your empire tend to stay where they are first founded. It would be impossible to make the Turks migrate towards Anatolia and change their capital 2-3 times and abandon their central Asian cities completely. Besides, central Asian Turks would be similar to Mongols for game purposes but some civilization must fill in the Ottoman role from 1300 to 1900.

You guys have some good points about the limitations of Civ4 AI.

Kairob's idea might work much better than the current UP, although as always- it needs testing :p My problem with the starting location is that their capital is historical (:lol: i know that doesnt make sense) and thus too close to other cities so it's almost worthless (i personally hate closely packed cities which dont get enough tiles).

I don't suppose there is a happy medium for a more eastern captial near the Central Asian steppe from which the Ottomans could easily be enticed to invade the Near-East? I would prefer the Ottomans to spawn with Istanbul/Constantinopolis as their capital rather than their military base right next to it, especially if they spawn later anyways.

ps- awesome info on the linguistics (although sorry to cause off-topic mishap in the thread as usual :cringe:)

I don't suppose there is a happy medium for a more eastern captial near the Central Asian steppe from which the Ottomans could easily be enticed to invade the Near-East? I would prefer the Ottomans to spawn with Istanbul/Constantinopolis as their capital rather than their military base right next to it, especially if they spawn later anyways.

I think giving Turkey Istanbul upon their spawn is a-historical. If we're gonna be a-historical, I still prefer my crazy idea, i.e. give all or most of Babylon to the Turks (not just the cities they already get, but the culture also)

No giving Constantinopole to the Turks, instead I would suggest adding a "Chose Historical Capital function", meaning a pop-up asking if you want to move your capital there either when the Turks conquer Constantinople, the Arabs Baghdad or Cairo, the Romans Constantinople, etc. ... or that it pops up whenever you conquer a city that is bigger than your current capital...?

mfG mick

No giving Constantinopole to the Turks, instead I would suggest adding a "Chose Historical Capital function", meaning a pop-up asking if you want to move your capital there either when the Turks conquer Constantinople, the Arabs Baghdad or Cairo, the Romans Constantinople, etc. ... or that it pops up whenever you conquer a city that is bigger than your current capital...?

mfG mick

Or that was a capital to other civ

Sorry, I don't mean to be rude, but what would be the point?

History, plain and simple, RFC tries to reenact Human history as historical as possible which is not given if Istanbul is not the Capital of the Turks, Makkah also was the capital only for a very short time. These are the two only examples I can think of at the moment, but they are viable in any case...

mick

Can't Rhye make some kind of Historical Capital Flip? *expects too much*