WOTM 07: First Spoiler

Reading Requirements

You must have reached at least 0 AD (or completed the game before then!)
You must have met all other civilizations, and know the approximate locations of their cultural boundaries.


Posting Restrictions

Please no discussions of events later than 500 AD[/b]


This game was a bit harder than the last one, but the idea was that it should still be fun & interesting.

What was your strategy for this game? Did you try and use an early immortal-rush, or were you just peacefully expanding?

I had a go. Made it to 0 AD and beyond. Went to war and won some cities. Got thoroughly out-teched and discovered (again) that axes and archers don't last too long against cavalry. Oh well back to Noble level.

Enjoyed this one a lot, thanks Ainwood. Got back into the spirit of playing some GotM after having a cow when I won the cow but didn't get the cow (no bull). Finally got over my beef with GotM so get back to greener pastures and waste no more time crying over spilt milk.

This map was a horny one. The start is absolutely woeful if you run with the herd and plant turn one (ok, nuff cow puns :cowboy:). By comparison with the ultimate spot anyway, a mere turn's delay away. I'm not 100% sure what I would have done entirely by myself, as for the first time since GotM1 I found the pre-game discussion to have a relevent strategic point in it with CiverDan's debate arguing hard figures about the pro's of starting on the banana if sea resources are present. Moving the scout nw revealed the clams and I was sold on the banana start! Unable to plant turn 1, best move was hills first 'just in case' as it costs you nothing. Spent the next 30 minutes looking at this screen:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/AU_Armageddon/Civ4ScreenShot0391.jpg

The grand food start on the banana's was still so appealing, but in the end I rationalised 2 gold and 2 food was the strongest possible start, and allowed for at least 1 guaranteed decent 2nd city for a military game. Being Immortal diff and Pangea and epic, best chance HAD to be a military one. I planted on the spot going worker first while researching fishing and then I think wheel and husbandry to find horsies. Was stunned to find Ainwood put the horses there to wrap that ultimate start. An interesting design choice for a GotM. I think Dan's argument's were compelling enough to rationalise anyone who is any good at Civ4 should have come to conclusion of moving the settler (I'd like to think I would have without the pre-game prompting but will never know). Conversely, everyone who planted the start spot will have such a handicapped start compared to those who didn't!

Ramble ramble, no good at these writeups. I'll try keep to the points. As said, I committed to military and seeing the horses clinched that deal as an all-out affair that HAD to be milked for every advantage that could be teased out of it. Scouted around meeting my various neighbours and was satisfied with Saladin as first victim, deciding not to make even a 2nd city or any wonders to fully capitilise on the start. Making nothing but Immortals as soon as the horse was hooked.

Unfortunately, Alexander modified those plans by declaring war and stealing my worker (well murdered actually). So it began, earlier than planned with only 3 Immortals, but proved no problem as he didn't have phalanx's and I wiped out Alexander keeping 2 cities and destroying 2 in no time, eliminating him from the game while I went straight for Alphabet.

I gasped seeing Saladin develop his first spear, but got Iron Working and bunch of other start techs trading away Alphabet to everyone as a calculated sacrifice and having explored his lands fully, moved all my vet Immortals to have 2 turn access to destory his iron. Paid off as he only ever got the one spear out. Took and kept all of Saladin's cities in blistering time, leaving him with one tundra hole befpre making peace and turning my attention to te Zulu's.

Here, at 310 BC, I have taken the 2nd of the Zulu frontline cities and am looking at cats shortly while committed to wiping out Shaka:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/AU_Armageddon/Civ4ScreenShot0392.jpg

I took out everything of Shaka's on the east with Cats, Eles, many Immortals, and a decent spread of Swords with medic spear escorts. Shaka survived (later discovered to be on the western coast) but was out of the game. Every one of my many cities still pumping nothing but units (mostly cats) I hit Rome with a two pronged attack of many veteran immortals and swords in the north, and a huge cat heavy army in the south, storming over Augustus in relatively short time, though war weariness was really setting in towards the end.

I will put up my closest SS to 500 AD which is actually 665 AD (sorry). Leading into this point in the game, I have taken a gamble with limited forces defending against a possible carthagian invasion in the east, and moved most of my forces south-west intended on sweeping over Saladin's new cities to finish him off, and then take all of Egypt, deciding that Carthage and me are quite friendly so risk of attack is minimal, and he is growing very dangerously advanced (him getting liberalism already too i think). I am closing in on the domination target amount and expecting a lovely domination victory shortly, so then declare on Saladin and have a heart attack as Carthage declares war on me, not having noticed in my eagerness to romp in that Saladin was Hannibal's vassal! As you can see, I also have an extremely precarious economic situation, so I end this spoiler with this screenshot, my forces massed in the south, warring now on both sides with knights (and grenadiers!) coming at me from the north, and 0% science losing 64 gold a turn with a 2 turn buffer :eek:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/AU_Armageddon/Civ4ScreenShot0394.jpg

I had a pretty hard time with this map, probably because i didn't do a good start.

I didn't move my settler like the guy before me, and, instead of going for bronze working, i went for wheel.

That got me behind a lot. By the time i had enough immortals, most people had spears and swords. Axemen were the backbone of my army.

Also, my starting spot had horrible hammers. I shouldn't have made it a purely science city. However, my second city was a awsome war machine. I had it with warriors epic, military academy and military trainer.

Had like 4 generals before 500 ad. (btw, is it better to use them on one unit or a bunch)

From where i am now, i capitulated saladin but i think im gunna lose

I kept no relgion all game to stay on good terms with everyone. i hate having no buffer zones between civilizations.

This was my first ever Warlords game - just got the expansion in the mail. I've only had Civ4 for about three weeks, and have only completed a couple of games of vanilla prior to this, with my best win at Noble. Needless to say, this was a challenge, since I haven't really played much Civ since Civ I and II.

So I built my cities where afireinside did, followed by a third city to the east of the capital (adjacent to the copper).

Then the barbarians and animals ate three settlers and escorts, barbarians took the city to the east, and I quit.

The Planning

I did a lot of preparation for this game, being extremely wary of immortal difficulty level. I played through numerous practice games, usually stopping at 500BC or thereabouts, trying to achieve some early goals.
The main objectives (beyond still being alive) were to found a religion, build a wonder, have 4+ cities and not to be bottom of the scoreboard.

I found it seriously hard to achieve these, but came up with some plans to guide me in the real thing. A tech path that gave me archery, myst & poly, then animals & wheel, before going mining & BW and then writing & alphabet in the hope of trading. There was also a build list: warrior, worker, archer, settler, a second archer and a bunch of immortals out of Persepolis.
I would try to remember the lessons gained from the dry-runs: Get archers early, or the barbs will hurt you. Don’t try an early attack on someone who has spearmen…or iron! Don’t get carried away and start romping your immortals far away from home. Fight for space. Get your 3rd city down by about turn 100.

So what happened?

The Reality

Part 1 – Capital decision and early exploration

I saw the crabs and had a big decision on whether to move to the coast or stay put. Finally went for settling in place, as I didn’t want to change the research to fit Fishing in – certainly not instead of archery. I planned on using the river tiles to help the initial science rate along. One extra commerce tile can mean all the difference in the first 40-50 turns.

My scout went initially east (past the amazing Pig Mountain) but didn’t attempt to cross either of the mountain ranges. Met Alex, Caesar and Shaka within the first 20 turns. They then turned back and headed south from Persepolis, seeing the golden hills, through the mountain pass and on south. Here, we met Saladin, of course, and discovered Alex’s homelands.

On turn 40 we achieved one of our objectives when we reached Polytheism and were the founders of Hinduism. I didn’t convert immediately, as I was concerned about the attitude of the AI that religious differences would cause. Saladin had founded Buddhism just a few turns previously. How right I was, as we were to see.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/22131/Golden_chokepoint_plus_horses_2320BC.JPG

When we reached Animal Hsb on the 56th turn, we realised the extra importance of the gold-mountain-pass location, and this cemented the decision to take the settler who was in production southwards.

Our scouts were scoping out the north by this time, had met Hannibal, but then died when they ran into barb archers.

Part 2 – Second city decision and Horses

On turn 67 Pasagardae was founded. Another tough decision. Which was the best tile? In the end we placed it on the nearest gold hill on our side of the pass. I felt at the time this could be a stupid decision, but although it wastes one gold supply, it does benefit from being better protected on the hill, and gets access to 2 other gold and the horses.
On the other hand, it suffered from food and culture-border problems for some time, and although a quite hammer-rich city, it lost out when trying to build stonehenge.

I retrospect, I think many of the problems could have been solved if I had founded it earlier, and gone straight for stonehenge. I missed out on it on turn 95. I believe I could have achieved it on turn 90 if I’d founded it 5 turns earlier and built the henge immediately.

A t the same time as this was happening, I had some more encouraging news. The horses were hooked up, roaded into Persepolis and Pasagardae, and we had a barracks ready to begin training a set of good immortals.

We learned bronzeworking at turn 103 (955BC), and saw that the nearest copper was between ourselves and a city that the Zulu had planted near Pig Mountain. I had just begun scouting them out for a possible attack. I really wanted to own all of the land bounded by the mountain ranges, but this was going to be hard – and risky! The chance of enraging Saladin and Alex, who were already annoyed over our religion, was high.

Part 3 – We strike out East!

At turn 113 (805BC) we went for it! Our 3 immortals entered Zulu lands and found 2 archers defending uMgungundlovu. It took 4 turns, but we took it and renamed it Tarsus.
Following up our sudden advantage, we nipped through the mountain pass by Pig Mountain and saw another Zulu city – Nobamba – with copper hooked up. I unhooked that, but we just didn’t have the force to take it – not with axes inside.
At the same moment, Caesar decided to declare on Shaka. I tried to bargain with Shaka, to see if he would give us something for peace, but he wasn’t scared enough.
I went chasing a settler party in the hope of getting a worker out of it, but he settled a city before I could. So I splatted the city, and got a Gt General, who I set to work as a Gt Military Instructor in Persepolis. Then made peace with Shaka.

More fuzzy thinking around this time. I had built a settler just before declaring on Shaka. I founded Susa just by the crabs. Then we gained Tarsus. That meant we a had suddenly doubled our small empire and the economy started to slump. Had to drop the tech rate for a while, switched research from Alphabet to Pottery before completing Alphabet later.

Also, lack of food in Pasagardae was hurting. Every time I started using the goldmines they starved. The culture of Corinth, around the bay, was preventing us from using the fish, until we managed to push our borders out and get a fishing boat going – but that took time.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/22131/Little_Empire_430BC.jpg

Part 4 – A Sudden Strike against us!

Turn 164 (40BC) was when it all happened.
I’d been waiting for Alphabet, and this was the turn it came up. However, as the message was coming up, Saladin declared on us and threw a large bunch of attackers at the units we had stationed at the mountain pass. The assault was not decisive, thankfully. We both lost a couple of units.

Amid the fighting, I managed to find time to trade Alphabet to Caesar in return for 4 early techs, and to Alex for 430 gold.

In the turns that followed, I bolstered the defences as fast as my whip would allow, and Saladin continued to attack at the pass. He was somewhat guarded, however, never trying more than a couple of hits per round.
After 4 turns, his forces withdrew – presumably to heal.

Part 5 – The conflict moves to the East

It went strangely quiet. Then we lost a scout inside Roman lands over beyond Tarsus, and that warned me that Saladin might be about to switch his point of attack from the west to the east.

I set about fortifying the pass as best I could, and also preparing for an assault near Tarsus.
Bizarrely, this far into the game we met Ramesses! How did we manage to miss him earlier?

In 95AD – so 9 turns after that initial attack, we found a bunch of attackers approaching Tarsus from the south through Roman lands. This was, of course, much harder to defend than at a mountain pass. I just wish we’d been able to grab all of the land down to the mountain pass in the east, but unfortunately we’d never been in a position to do that.

We researched Iron Working, but of course there was none of the stuff around, so it couldn’t help us.

Their attack force consisted of two groups – combinations of chariots, axes, swords and spears. Our defences were axes, spears and immortals.

The attack came in just south of Tarsus, and we both lost some units. What turned the tide in their favour was that we began to run short of new units, while a third group of attackers – including Horse Archers – arrived to cause more trouble.

Part 6 – The Tide turns against us

A major turning point was 165AD, where they had 2 crucial wins against the odds (20% and 30%) and that left us with just 4 defenders facing 16 attackers.

I had to risk taking all of our remaining immortals who had been watching the mountain pass away to race full speed over to the east.

Saladin reached the point where he would agree to discuss peace, but of course he wanted Pasagardae, and giving that up would be basically admitting defeat.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/22131/Mayhem_at_Tarsus_245AD.jpg

Another crucial moment. 245AD and we were still hanging on in Tarsus when Shaka chose his moment to declare on us, hopping an impi over the mountains by Tarsus.

The next turn we lost Tarsus and regained it. Bloody fighting all around that area.
Got another Gt General out of the action - Boudica. Then lost her through total stupidity and assuming no-one could reach a tile where she was defended by a wounded immortal. The cursed impi could reach that square couldn’t it? And it beat the immortal.

Swords and axes kept turing up and it looked very bleak for Tarsus.

I decided as a useless gesture to drop my religion since it was antagonising our rivals.
It didn’t impress anyone – certainly not Saladin who still wanted Pasagardae before considering peace.

Part 7 – Staring at Defeat

We held on defiantly at Tarsus, our crippled forces against a never-ending stream of swords and axes. Then chariots started showing up at the mountain pass by Pasagardae!

In 335AD, Tarsus went down for good.

At 500AD we are facing the end. Saladin and Shaka have forces menacingly roaming in the jungles to the east, and now a mass of Horse Archers, crossbows etc are moving towards Pasagardae.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/22131/Horde_of_Doom_575AD.jpg

Eek!

The Glorious History of Erkon of Persia

Here follows the chronicles of Erkon, ruler of mighty Persia

Early Years (4000 BC - 1630 BC)

I had decided before starting the game that the initial spot was not suitable. The banana-spot would build me a worker in 18 turns instead of 23 turns for the tile SW of the hill. I moved the scout and when I noticed the sea resources, I decided to settle on the banana and started research into Animal Husbandry.

My scout moved south-west and got gold from the hut. I made contact with the Romans, Egyptians, Arabs and Greek. Man, such neighbors! And when I met the Carthagians and Zulus, I had to laugh. The window to use the Immortals were not large.

Research then went to Mining and Wheel, while a warrior and a settler was built. I was getting afraid of the barbarians and decided to go for Archery. I managed to build a city SW close to the gold, horse and water. Animals were roaming the lands so I had to be careful. My worker improved the land and after two work boats and a couple of archers, I started the production of Immortals.

Arabian War (1600 BC - 1030 BC)

What to say? I could not resist. I captured and kept the three Arabian cities. (both Hinduism and Judaism was founded by Saladin)

First Greek War (1015 BC - 805 BC)

In 925 BC I declare on Alexander. He has build the Great Wall in Athens and I want it. And I get it. I raze two of his other cities, and then make peace. He will never again be a threat to Persia.

The Religious Years, aka The Cultural Years (790 BC - 500 AD)

I use these turns to build my empire (both improving land and improving my cities). Research rate is mad with lots of tech trade and lightbulbing, and I'm first to Confucianism (625 BC), Taoism (265 BC), Christianity (85 BC) and Islam (80 AD). With all these religions, I decide to go for a cultural victory. I've never done that before, so I'm not sure exactly how to do it. I build missionaries, temples and other infrastructure. In order to improve relations with the Romans and the Egyptians, I declare on Shaka and Hannibal (few units lost/defeated). My plans right now is to turn off research after liberalism, nationalism and printing press.

BTW, mad tech rate means really mad tech rate. I was first to Liberalism 500 AD. :D

Research


Turn Year Epoch Beakers TotalB Techname
18 3460 BC 130 130 Animal Husbandry
29 3130 BC 65 195 Mining
39 2830 BC 78 273 The Wheel
45 2650 BC 78 351 Archery
50 2500 BC 52 403 Fishing
64 2080 BC 156 559 Writing
91 1270 BC 390 949 Alphabet
92 1240 BC 104 1053 Pottery
92 1240 BC 130 1183 Sailing
92 1240 BC 65 1248 Mysticism
93 1210 BC 130 1378 Polytheism
93 1210 BC 104 1482 Masonry
93 1210 BC 156 1638 Bronze Working
94 1180 BC 78 1716 Priesthood
100 1000 BC 260 1976 Iron Working
104 940 BC 260 2236 Literature
113 805 BC 104 2340 Meditation
125 625 BC 455 2795 Code of Laws
126 610 BC 325 3120 Mathematics
127 595 BC 390 3510 Monarchy
132 520 BC 455 3965 Construction
132 520 BC 455 4420 Calendar
148 280 BC 780 5200 Music
149 265 BC 1040 6240 Philosophy
150 250 BC 156 6396 Monotheism
157 145 BC 520 6916 Currency
160 100 BC 325 7241 Horseback Riding
161 85 BC 650 7891 Theology
165 25 BC 390 8281 Drama
172 80 AD 1560 9841 Divine Right
175 125 AD 910 10751 Feudalism
179 185 AD 780 11531 Paper
180 200 AD 585 12116 Metal Casting
187 305 AD 5850 17966 Education
194 410 AD 910 18876 Machinery
194 410 AD 1040 19916 Civil Service
200 500 AD 1820 21736 Liberalism

Unit Production


Turn Year Epoch Hammers TotalH Unitname
28 3160 BC 15 15 Warrior
46 2620 BC 15 30 Warrior
52 2440 BC 25 55 Archer
57 2290 BC 25 80 Archer
63 2110 BC 25 105 Immortal
69 1930 BC 25 130 Archer
72 1840 BC 25 155 Immortal
73 1810 BC 25 180 Immortal
77 1690 BC 25 205 Immortal
78 1660 BC 25 230 Immortal
82 1540 BC 25 255 Immortal
83 1510 BC 25 280 Immortal
86 1420 BC 25 305 Immortal
87 1390 BC 25 330 Immortal
90 1300 BC 25 355 Immortal
90 1300 BC 25 380 Immortal
94 1180 BC 25 405 Immortal
94 1180 BC 25 430 Immortal
97 1090 BC 25 455 Immortal
98 1060 BC 25 480 Immortal
98 1060 BC 25 505 Archer
101 985 BC 25 530 Immortal
104 940 BC 25 555 Immortal
106 910 BC 25 580 Archer
108 880 BC 25 605 Immortal
165 25 BC 60 665 War Elephant
171 65 AD 40 705 Catapult
173 95 AD 35 740 Axeman
175 125 AD 50 790 Horse Archer
179 185 AD 50 840 Longbowman
181 215 AD 35 875 Axeman
183 245 AD 35 910 Spearman
185 275 AD 40 950 Swordsman
186 290 AD 25 975 Archer
190 350 AD 60 1035 War Elephant
192 380 AD 50 1085 Horse Archer
195 425 AD 50 1135 Longbowman
199 485 AD 70 1205 Maceman

Great People

Turn 92 (1240 BC) Arminius (Great General)
Turn 106 (910 BC) Heinz Guderian (Great General)
Turn 148 (280 BC) Johannes Vermeer (Great Artist)
Turn 148 (280 BC) Xi Ling Shi (Great Scientist)
Turn 175 (125 AD) Galileo Galilei (Great Scientist)
Turn 190 (350 AD) Nicolaus Copernicus (Great Scientist)

Then the barbarians and animals ate three settlers and escorts, barbarians took the city to the east, and I quit.

Oh no! That sounds very unfortunate. Oh well, at least you can't say that WOTM 7 took over your life! :)

There seems to be two camps of people so far: those who are crashing and burning - and those who are thriving.

Unfortunately, I am in the crashing and burning camp.

As at 20 AD, I have 4 cities and I am in second to last place in everything. The only person doing worse than me is Shaka because he is getting overrun by the Romans.

Things that have gone wrong for me so far include:
- settling in place. I forgot that it wasn't a computer generated map (where the starting position is almost always good). Clearly, there are 2 or 3 places that are better than settling in place for your capital
- losing my Great General in an ill-advised battle with Saladin. I should have just begged on knees for peace a bit earlier.
- missing out on Great Library by 8 turns. I'm sure I could have worked that better.
- not going after a barbarian city to the north earlier. Now, Hannibal has taken it and hemmed me in.
- where is all the iron?? I have none.
- immortal level being 2 levels higher than what I can rationally deal with.

The aim for me from here is to see just how long I can hang in there. I imagine I will crumble into the dusts of history at the first sign of a 10 unit stack on my doorstep, as I am so badly defended, it's not funny. The only thing that is saving me is my cowardly lack of a religion.

Oh well, at least I'm having fun...... :crazyeye:

First submission of a WOTM
First Immortal level game (ever)
Normal level: Monarch - and even on that level I only win about 1/2 of the time.

Goal: to survive as long as possible.

I began by settling in place. After seeing the horses and gold to the south, I wished I'd gone south, too, but it was a worable start. I founded my second city in a position on top of the horses. By 1900 BC, I had two cities and so did Alex. Caesar and Carthage each had 4 cities, the rest had three.

I focused on building immortals and declared war on Saladin in 1720 BC. This lasted to 1000BC when I razed his last city - I kept two that were closest.

In 850 BC I declared on Alex and had wiped him out by 235BC. Again, I kept 2 cities.

By 40 BC I now had iron, copper, and horses. I wanted to get the pyramids from Rome, so I declared war on Caesar. This lasted to 455 AD when I sued for peace. I had razed 4 of caesar's cities, kept none. War wearniness was hurting my economy too much, and Rome, the city I most wanted, was fortified on a hill with Praetorians and Longbows. I had no catapults yet, so I needed to stop until I could develop them.

By 500AD I have two holy cites (Medina and Athens) but no way of producing a GP, so there is work to do. Off to a good start, but still way behind. I don't have Feudalism, Alphabet, Construction, or Code of Laws yet. My economy isn't crippled, but is very slow. I have a good sized empire and a lot of empty land around. If I could settle that empty land I'd probably have the biggest empire. But my economy won't support that. Also, the other civs that can trade techs with me are so far ahead they wont trade with me, so I might be on my own. I haven't converted to a religion yet, but if I convert to Hinduism I'll share a religion with Shaka and Caesar. At the moment I'm worried about Shaka because Caesar was his friend and he's unpredictable. I'm not sure where this will go.

Thalaba

The biggest thing I have learnt from this game is the power of a small empire. I only have 4 cities, and I have not taken or razed a single enemy one, but I am researching Education at 20 AD. I have virtually no maintenance costs.

Shame I have virtually no army either......

The biggest thing I have learnt from this game is the power of a small empire.

Reading just the few games that have been posted so far, I've been stopped in my tracks by 3 of them, for different reasons.

I think that, despite doing quite a bit of preparation work, I just didn't have any clear idea of what strategies were likely to work when playing at this level.

I thought that getting small achievements like founding a religion and building a wonder would be a reasonable way to bring myself up to somewhere close to the AI. Well, reading through AU_Armageddon and Erkon's posts showed me quite clearly that I should have been paying attention to other things - that you need a high-food capital, and that only an early military action will get you anywhere against immortal level AIs.

Then I read your post (Harbourboy) and I just had to sit down and think about it all over again! You've managed to get a good start without this early military assault that I'd convinced myself was completely essential.

I just wish I knew how to play this game! I'm not sure what I've learned now.

One thing occurs to me. The next time I'm preparing for a GOTM and I'm joining in the pre-game discussions, I will try to post my strategy plan for the game and invite the experts to put me right. That way I'll try to avoid charging off down a blind alley to destruction!

You've managed to get a good start without this early military assault

I have hardly made a good start. I am second to last in everything, have no armies, and nowhere to expand to. All I have learnt is that there is a massive tradeoff to be made between expansion / war and economy.

I have hardly made a good start. I am second to last in everything, have no armies, and nowhere to expand to. All I have learnt is that there is a massive tradeoff to be made between expansion / war and economy.

I stand corrected. Maybe the secret really is to start cracking heads around 2000BC :D .

On the other hand, maybe it is a complex game and there isn't a simple strategy to beat each situation. The truth lies, as you said, in getting the balance right.

It is possible that I have made a reasonable start, but just don't know it. Maybe there is a strategy that can take you home from this stage. Probably something involving complicated diplomacy and smart tech trading. Unfortunately, I don't know what that strategy is, because I can't see how I could warmonger my way out of this position (with my 4 immortals). I am researching education and the tech screen shows that nobody else has that yet. Maybe I will be able to get some mileage out of that.

Still, I am well out of my league at Immortal level, but I am learning a lot more from having done this.

It would be interesting to see a settler level WOTM because the tactics to beat everyone on that level are so vastly different to the higher levels. Some of the pro-players might get caught out when their usual fancy slingshot gambits either don't work (because the AI is so hopeless) or are a waste of time (because your happy cap is high that happiness tactics are wasteful).

Well seeing as I had never played above noble level until a few weeks ago I went with the Adventurer class.

I fully expected to be toast by 0 AD seeing as Immortal is way way above my normal level even with the Adventurer bonuses so I just concentrated on survival.

I started off researching Animal Husbandry, Archery, Fishing , Pottery, Mining

I soon found out that there were mountain ranges cutting me off from some of the AI which meant they could only reach me by sea (relief !!).

My major problem was keeping everyone happy since there were few happy resources around. I was building as many immortals and archers as I could which mean my bank balance was low .

Found the Iron in the NW in 880 BC and managed to get a settler there to settle Arbela (lousy city but at least I had iron) in 700 BC. I thought this might flip to the AI but I managed to hang onto it.

Hinduism reached me in 655BC, Buddhism in 520 BC and Christianity in 85 BC. I didn't adopt a religion as I wanted to try to kep as many AI as possible on side.

I switched to Organised Religion in 20AD and from then on just concentrated on building temples to alleviate the happiness problems and missionaries to spread the religion.

I managed to get through until 500 AD without having had a war with anyone.

Things started to go pear-shaped soon after that but that will have to wait for the next spoiler ......... :( I am still alive in 1442 AD but only just :( )

I knew I never had chance of finishing anywhere other than in last place in the game against the AI. I've achieved my first objective of getting past 0 AD. Now let's just hope I manage to achieve my objective of beating at least one human player :)

Last save I have before 500 AD is this 440 AD one

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/26914/CliveGOTM.JPG

Now let's just hope I manage to achieve my objective of beating at least one human player

Well, poor old ChrisShaffer got eaten by barbarians early on, so you have achieved that objective!

I've achieved my first objective of getting past 0 AD. Now let's just hope I manage to achieve my objective of beating at least one human player :)

While not wishing to spoil my later spoiler, I think I can safely say that you may well find that you have outlasted another human player, too. :(

Game went like Erkon game, but Erkon was faster.

I settle on the banana. First priority is to get immortals. I want to go for space victory. Taking over 1 or 2 AI capitols is very helpful. AI capitols are often in good position and have developped surrounding.

To the south I find Saladin and Alexander. They are agressive men. I will take them out. In 2080BC I built Pasargadae by the horse on border with Saladin.

In 925BC I attack Saladin and take Mecca (895), Medina (865) and Baghdad (865). Also a great general comes in 865BC. He going to teach immortals in capitol. After destroy of Damascus Saladin and I make peace.

In 745BC I make war on Alexander. The copper near Sparta is in culture from capitol so he has no spearmen. :) Same turn I capture Sparta. In 685 capture Athens, destroy Knossos and another great general. General also teach immortals in capitol.

In 625 I make peace with Alexander and war on Saladin. In 610 destroy Najran and Saladin dead. In 475 war on Alexander and capture Argos. In 445 destroy Corinth and Alexander dead.

Now no more fighting but repair economy. Only a few coins profit with zero research. Because I could built Oracle in Mecca and get free Codes of law, I can trade alot. In 805 and 790 I trade for 3 technologies, and in 760 for 2.

After wars game not very exciting. I had 2 workers and capture 9 workers in the wars. They build cottages and roads. I have 9 cities. And All I do is research, research research.

I have long borders with Augustus and Ramesses. But Augustus has same religion (Buddhism) and Ramesses has arguement with Hannibal. I have bad relation with Shaka and Hannibal. They hate me because I make 2 times war on their friends Saladin and Alexander. But border is small, Shaka is weak and Hannibal hates Ramesses more.

In 350AD a great prophet comes and I built Mahabodhi in Mecca. Now I get good money from my cities. And from Roman cities.:king:

Settled on the bananas--decided pretty early to go for space also.
Take Alex first and then am consolidating at 0AD. All but Egypt are Hindu and he will be next victim but with a cat/mace army.

Unable to plant turn 1, best move was hills first 'just in case' as it costs you nothing. Spent the next 30 minutes looking at this screen:

My move as well. I debated a bit before settling on the bananas--I figured city 2 could steal the wheat and work the other gold. A couple of turns later I regretted it as that second city was really food short.

(deleted - posted in the wrong thread. Moderator please remove this post)

I would really like Erkon to post some more details about his game. Thx

I would really like Erkon to post some more details about his game. Thx

Sure, what kind of details are you interested in? I can post some screenshots if you want? Something else?

I've been doing ok in recent GOTMs/WOTMs but this was a bit of a non-starter.

Saw the discussion on settling on the bananas, saw the clams, thought long and hard about where to settle, settled in place, then regretted it for the rest of the short-lived game. I cursed my decision and cursed the fact that the GOTMs can be affected significantly by (more or less) a random throw of the dice.

I think it should be a settle in place for all games and then it takes the random element out. Settling in place here made poor use of the land but we weren't to know (and the gold near the bananas was an unknown but added bonus of the move).

Anyway, the game. I got 2 cities up, second to grab the horses, gold (x2) and fish, with wheat and bananas on a time-share. Hooked up the horses, started on my first immortal. Then...

Then Saladin declared war (out of nowhere), landing an archer on my horses. I had 3 or 4 warriors (but only one in the city near the horses). Splat. Game over. (I played cat and mouse for a while, even getting a settler out that I was already building. But Saladin was brutal and not for peace.)

Apart from the settling "error", my other main mistake was not researching bronze working early enough (i.e. before Saladin attacked) so I could have whipped an immortal before losing my horses, but even then I wouldn't have been able to defend my second city in time. I think I have played too many soft (i.e. on Noble) cultural conquest attempts recently (inspired by the quartet of current succession games) which has perhaps atrophied my battle-geared early game tactics. Or something.

But really my heart wasn't in it. Immortal on Warlords = no hope of winning for me (I can win on Monarch but seldom higher, especially on Warlords). We were boxed in by AIs who had nasty UUs. And I don't know what I did to Saladin, but he played as uncompromisingly as a warmongering human player.

However, having read the other spoilers, I am motivated to try again (having submitted my early conquest defeat), using some of the tactics mentioned. But for now, a dent to my pride, but hopefully not my global ranking (if I do OK in the next GOTM).

@spacemanmf
Out of interest, do you remember what year it was (roughly) that Saladin declared on you?

I also came up against the 'evil Saladin' in this game, and he was definitely not to be put off. While it would be generous of me to call it 'intelligent' of him, I was grimly amused at the way he attacked me first over the gold to the south, retired to heal, went quiet for a few turns, and then exploded out of the East to attack my city at that end. The scum! But it was really the sheer weight of numbers and never-ending supply of new units that did for me.

I've also tried this game again a few times, using the banana settlement and early attack strategies mentioned here. Fascinating! Big improvement on my original game, though not enough for me to call any of them heading for victory. More lessons learned, including "don't push your attack too far and get spread too thin" and "if they've got swordsmen, you're too late. Leave them alone".

Something in the spirit of "thats what my empire looked like when i had 2, 4 , 7 cities" and also some "i first captured his outer cities with mz 3 immortals, and then moved to the capitol" or "my pilliging party went in first to lure some of his units to the west, and then i atacked with my main force from the east.. etc..
also very important for me what u maneged to ask for some of ur peace treaties. (or if u did at all)

many thx!

Starting out we saw the sea resource and decided to settle on the bananas. That turned out to be even better than expected.
Researched AH, Mining, then Fishing for some health and food. I guess there's no health bonus on immortal? Then the wheel and finally Bronze Working in 2170BC.

Initial builds were worker, warrior, settler. I think we interrupted the warrior at size 3 to focus on the settler which was ready in 2530 and settled south on the coast to claim gold, corn, and horses. What nice land! At 500AD this town is still size 4 but turns out a respectable number of units and nothing else.

Meanwhile the capitol built a pair of workboats. Because the health bonus was used immediately I looked at them as giving essentially +4food. Plus some gold and we were getting a decent science rate.

The barbs killed a few of our units and interrupted some builds to focus on military early, but overall were just a nuisance.

I pulled off the Persian 2-turn Settler Trick in 1870. A warrior completed with an overflow of 7 hammers. Switch to settler and let the bonuses take over, next turn we can whip that settler for 2 citizens. Gee whiz! A 2-turn settler at 1870 for our 3rd town? To claim that western copper before Shaka or Caesar do?!? That was just too good to pass up. And I overflowed that into a 6-turn worker to boot. I felt like we were off to a solid start.

Research turned to Writing and Mysticism. We'll want open borders. Our fist 3xp Immortal appeared in 1630 ready to attack something. Mecca was the home of Buddhism and controlled great land, but Greece had settled Sparta on that plains hill and looked like it might claim copper someday if I didn't do something about it.

By 1330 we had 3 experienced Immortals on the scene and were ready to declare war on Alex. Sparta was only defended by 1 archer- our best chance. A retreater killed him, no casualties, take the gold and go on a pillaging mission. I really preferred to be attacking Saladin, so once every tile around Athens was pillaged for a big profit I just let Alex go. I didn't explore west of Athens around that lake for a long time and so didn't know what Ramses was up to.

From here it was the same strategy: capture a few towns, pillage everything, move on. We had a good income for all that and reached Alphabet in 955. Some civs didn't even have writing, so we were in a good trading position while our reputation held out. Immortals captured Mecca in 805. We took another on the coast and moved on. A great general appeared in this war, Jeanne d'Arc, Joan's sister I guess, who settled in Parsagadae by the horses.

In 640 Rome completed an Iron mine. No good, dow 'em, capture 2 towns, pillage everything, move on. At 500AD Caesar is still arounnd, controlling his capitol and 4 other towns, but we haven't seen a Praetorian.

In 520BC Persepolis completes the Great Lighthouse by whipping 4 citizens. It seemed like it might be worth it, would've been better with a Granary but we just never found time for it. Still no granary in the capitol at 500AD. Anyway, in 490 Mecca finished chopping and whipping the Temple of Artemis and in 475 Currency was learned. That's a lot of trade routes, our economy got a nice boost. I actually thought the Temple would give +100% to All trade routes everywhere, but now I know that's too good to be true. Still, the Temple of Artemis is kind of neat-o. Mecca did generate some gold. We got a scientist in Persepolis and had a 100% chance of Not getting a scientist here, and a free priest to boot. So, a market, some merchants, and we get a great priest with which to start a Golden Age. But not yet.

We gave in to Shaka's demands for tribute of Writing so something could be done about Hannibal who was running away in the GNP race. DoW Hannibal in 340BC, capture 4 workers. We were on a roll that sorta ended here. Hannibal stationed a spearman on the river iron hill, we miscalculated, we never took that dang tile even if we did pillage very nearly every other improvement and road in his large empire. And we captured Hippo, still defended by only archers and the home of Judaism, the religion of Carthage and Egypt. It had food, hills, a river, coast. I liked this town- a market, lots of shields, a barracks, the works.

But this was the only town of Hannibal's we took while he paid a high price to slaughter many of our units. Construction came in 310BC but didn't come into play in this war.

In 160BC Shaka DoW's us. Great, those impis are a pain but we could hold our border town. On the border of Carthage and Shaka we were getting double-whammied and were forced to make peace with Hannibal to focus on this. And Shaka had just finished the pyramids. In 80BC that prophet was born. I wanted to delay a golden age until we had Ulundi and the Pyramids and could do it as a police state. But Shaka was too tough. We took him down to 2 towns in the east and had to stop. His movement-promoted Impis ran through the jungle and stole our workers. Not once but twice. The Roman border created a funnel of doom outside Ulundi where swords etc killed our guys and threatened our holdings. General Leonidas was even born in Ulundi. Whatever. In 215AD we make peace for Code of Laws. We traded Construction to Ramses for Calendar and gold. We need to start our Golden Age to rebuild our forces. Caesar has Feudalism, we really need to mop up Saladin and Alex while they're still stuck on archers.

And that's what I did. Saladin became a vassal with 2 really lousy towns. Alex is going to be attacked any minute at 500AD. We've had 4 great generals, all settled. Ramses is solid but still our pal, Rome's culture grew to claim some of Shaka's iron I guess, and Hannibal is rebuilding and has the tech lead. And Macemen. We're one tech away from maces ourselves but can only research at 10%, this will continue to be interesting...

Nice work, Jove.

To add to the 'evil Saladin' discussion. He did declare war on me and I lost my Great General to him. But, unlike some of you, he did agree to my plead for peace. Not sure why.

@Harbourboy

One difference I can think of is the little matter of religion.

Saladin founded Buddhism in my game. I founded Hinduism, and was daft enough to switch to it after a while - in effect dancing around waving a flag in his face. After the war was going badly downhill, I did try abandoning my religion and shouting 'We're all atheists here!' at him. Strangely it had little effect.

I notice you kept well out of the religious side in your game. I can't see any mention of it in spacemanmf's game, but that might be a good question:

@spacemanmf
Were Saladin and yourself different religions?

Yes, I was too scared of my potential immortal enemies to go anywhere near a religion!

AgedOne:

That's just it. I stayed well clear of any religion. I had open borders with everyone to encourage peace.

I was killed in 385BC. Looking at my replay, he declared in 1840BC. Just had no chance.

He was clever with me too. Taking me when I was outnumbered then waiting to regroup, stealing my last remaining worker when the opportunity was there.

This is my first WOTM that I'm planning on finishing, be it a win or loss. I had a good start (DOW'ed Saladin and took two cities, razed one and reduced him to some jungle junk). I took a city from Alex next, but my economy came to a grinding halt so I stopped warring. I then went for COL, whipped courthouses and started going towards liberalism. Until I realized I had skipped construction :lol: I'm researching construction now (after having finished CS already) at about 100 AD. Augustus has too much on his hands - I hope it's not me or this may be the end of my run. If it's Shaka, then I think I have a shot at winning this game, even though Hannibal is the handsdown tech leader right now.

In hindsight, I should have just done an immortal rush for conquest! I think it's very possible to take out all of the southern civs before they'll get any metal, or at least deny them metal. Then you just have to block the borders and kill the north at your leisure...

Well, I am fairly chuffed that at 500 AD I am still there. Only 5 cities (annoying as I won't be able to build any of those wonders that need 6 prerequisite buildings) but still in play, so I will still have something to write about in the final spoiler.

After trying out RoberttheBruce's nice practice map and almost winning I thought this one might be possible.

I settled on bananas. I thought that was a good move. Got to whipping things really early and was doing well. Then Alexander attacked in 1600AD. I have never had an AI attack that early before. I lost my capital soon after.

Then I tried again. Built a bunch of Immortals and went after Saladin. Apparently Immortals are completely useless however and I had no chance.

I found this map completely unplayable and quit in disgust. Not fun at all. :mad:

I cannot understand how anyone has had any success on this map. When I attacked Saladin he had 3 archers, 1 axeman and spearman in his capital. Similar story in other cities. There is no way Immortals can contend with that.

After trying out RoberttheBruce's nice practice map and almost winning I thought this one might be possible.

I settled on bananas. I thought that was a good move. Got to whipping things really early and was doing well. Then Alexander attacked in 1600AD. I have never had an AI attack that early before. I lost my capital soon after.

Then I tried again. Built a bunch of Immortals and went after Saladin. Apparently Immortals are completely useless however and I had no chance.

I found this map completely unplayable and quit in disgust. Not fun at all. :mad:

I cannot understand how anyone has had any success on this map. When I attacked Saladin he had 3 archers, 1 axeman and spearman in his capital. Similar story in other cities. There is no way Immortals can contend with that.

Did you build more than one settler?
Did you build more than one worker?
When did you attack?

MadSwede, that is the beauty of these games of the month. By seeing what other people have done, we can learn things that we would otherwise have never thought were possible.

As an answer to your question, my relative "success" (very relative - in that I survived into the AD years) was based on:
- not choosing any religions
- getting Stonehenge up quickly for borders
- giving in to all demands for tribute
- beelining for expensive techs and then selling them to the highest bidder
- building as many units as possible
- not attacking anybody ever

Clearly some of these tactics are useless for actually winning (especially the last one) but they have been very useful in surviving this far.

Did you build more than one settler?
Did you build more than one worker?
When did you attack?

No.
Yes. Two I think. I also built 2 workboats.
I don't remember, but it was early. Around 1000BC I suppose.

I was a bit pissed off yesterday when I wrote the post and I apologize if I sounded angry. I will try once more. I still can't believe some people were able to beat Saladin as easy as they did.

No.
Yes. Two I think. I also built 2 workboats.
I don't remember, but it was early. Around 1000BC I suppose.

I was a bit pissed off yesterday when I wrote the post and I apologize if I sounded angry. I will try once more. I still can't believe some people were able to beat Saladin as easy as they did.

We have a similar start, although I attacked much earlier. I had four immortals in my initial attack. I wonder why we have 600 years difference. If you look at my production list in my spoiler, you can see when I switch over to military production. Settler, workers and work boats are not listed. How does it match your unit production?

We have a similar start, although I attacked much earlier. I had four immortals in my initial attack. I wonder why we have 600 years difference. If you look at my production list in my spoiler, you can see when I switch over to military production. Settler, workers and work boats are not listed. How does it match your unit production?

I didn't have autolog on, but I had a look at an autosave and I seem to have attacked in 925BC. I remember building a granary and a barracks as well as attacking with one more Immortal, otherwise our starts are similar. Of course, you are a way better player so you might have managed the whip a bit better.

Challenger, Spacerace

I founded on the bananas (gold being a nice bonus), and set research to get some Immortals going. The only lamb amongst the wolves was Saladin, who was pretty close by. Yet he did not end up being the first target once we found Greece did not have immediate metal to build phalanxes. Initial builds were a couple of workers, barracks, settler. The reason being that we needed to road to opponents, and connect these resources since we had a health problem from no freshwater.

3580- Hinduism is founded in Thebes
3370- Carthage gets Buddhism
3160- Shaka adopts slavery and can build those darn Impi. Not good.

After researching AH, it was obvious that a second city needed to be founded, as border expansion would not get them in time. There was simply no good place to put it, so we founded on the horses. This site could borrow the wheat once a fishing boat was in place, work cottages for later use by the capital, work both the gold hills for city maintenance/research, and finally produce nothing but military and a library forever. The two workers roaded towards Alex and put in a good road network around the capital. I almost always move workers one turn, road, stop the road, and then move them into place (where they were originally going) for maximum efficiency. This can translate into many extra worker moves in the long run.

2230- Pasargadae founded
2200- adopt slavery
1480- Declare war on Alex.

I try to get twice the number of troops that I need, and attack the capital first. In this case, I wanted 6 Immos, and to attack as fast as possible, figuring on 3 archers in the capital. Roads were present all the way to Greece for any reinforcements. To build as many immos as possible in as short a time as possible, I used slavery, and did not build any workboats until the Immos were ready. Workboats are not cheap, and workers are more useful anyway.

1450- Shaka declares on me!

Fortunately he only sends 2 archers, and these are quickly mopped up. If he had ever connected copper, it was easy to pillage from our starting location.

1420- Athens is taken.
1270- Great General who becomes a specialist in Persepolis.
1180- Nobamba captured from Zulu and Sparta from Greeks. Somewhere in here I gave the Greeks peace.
970- Declare on Saladin and capture Mecca the next turn.
925- Peace with Shaka the Wolf.

From here on out it was mainly fighting barbs (we exchanged cities), and building up the empire. The 3 gold hills allowed for more expansion than was otherwise possible while still keeping research up. The reason to go to war early is to have more land/research potential and hamper the AI bonuses @ Immortal so that you can keep up in tech. Of course this is my strategy, I would like to see if peaceful settling first and later war speeds the tech pace for a faster spaceship later. The drawback of this approach is later war incurs quite some war weariness and obsoletes the nice UU. I missed out on Liberalism and the Oracle (Saladin built it right before I declared, and I tried to get a more expensive tech for Lib and lost out to Rome); perhaps Saladin would have been the better first target.

@Mad Swede- If I were giving advice, I would say build troops early and often when you have a nice early UU and are on higher difficulty. Off the top of my head, this was true in the Deity Inca game and this one. This allows you quite some leeway to react to what the quasi-improved AI throws at you. The AI cannot stop you if you are close, build 6-8 chariots and maybe an axe and put them out of commission! With aggressive AI so close, there is no need for granaries/libraries/workboats until they are gone and you have more room (IMO).

I didn't have autolog on, but I had a look at an autosave and I seem to have attacked in 925BC. I remember building a granary and a barracks as well as attacking with one more Immortal, otherwise our starts are similar. Of course, you are a way better player so you might have managed the whip a bit better.

The granary and barracks explains the difference. Each building delays your invasion. There are two main purposes for barracks: first, it reduces the number of units you loose (thus reducing war weariness). Second, it reduces maintenance cost (since fewer units can do the same work). However, it takes a certain amount of turns until the advantage is greater than the disadvantage with delayed units. As a rule of thumb I use in my games, the breakeven point for barracks (and forges) is five times the time it takes to build the building. If it takes 10 turns to build the barracks, it will take another 40 turns until it the investment has been payed back. If I need units fast, I always skip barracks (and granary). You have to come up with your own rule of thumb, depending on your style of play.

Hi Erkon

What kind of odds were you getting on your early battles? What promotions were you giving your immortals?

Cos I had another play around, settling in a better location this time (on the hill S of the bananas). Presumably the capitals you were attacking were on 40% defence bonus? With any promotions, plus the 25% fortification bonus, the defending archers get good odds against immortals it seemed to me.

As soon as the cities are on a hill or have walls, it becomes very difficult to break them down without siege weaponry. Did you have vastly outnumbering forces? Did the AI do anything dumb to help (like putting archers out in the field)?

Challenger - Conquest

I played an experimental game this month. The idea was to declare war on every AI as soon as I had Immortals, cut everyone off from every strategic resource, and eventually conquer their cities defended by nothing but archers.

The flow of the game was not as smooth and harmonious as I had hoped for. I still intend to submit it, however I expect to be beaten to the fastest conquest by about 300 years by somebody who played optimally.

4000BC
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/96076/Balbes-WOTM07-4000BC.jpg

3000BC
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/96076/Balbes-WOTM07-3000BC.jpg

Build order in Persepolis: Worker - Settler
Research order: Animal Husbandry - Mining - The Wheel

The scout headed south to the hut, then further south. A surprising number of huts was there on the map. Though Alexander's scout snatched one from under my nose, I stumbled upon four more.

2000BC
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/96076/Balbes-WOTM07-2000BC.jpg

The scout continued along the coast in a clockwise pattern, revealinng the shape of the continent and finding the homelands of my rivals.

Persepolis: Warrior - Worker Settler - Work Boat - Work Boat
Pasargade: Worker - Immortal - ...
Susa: Immortal - ...

Research: Fishing - Writing - Bronze Working - Mysticism - Masonry

Immortals:
Built-2 Active-2 Lost-0
Workers:
Built-2 Active-2 Lost-0

1750BC
Using Open Borders, my Immortals quickly (road movement 4) scouted the lands of the AIs, looking for their metals, horses, and workers.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/96076/Balbes-WOTM07-1750BC1.jpg

Then, I would position the Immortal to capture a worker and/or pillage a strategic resource immediately upon the declaration of war, and strike!

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/96076/Balbes-WOTM07-1750BC2.jpg

On a different note, both 'cheap' wonders were built in 1810BC! This really is Immortal level.

Persepolis: Library
Pasargade: Immortal - ...
Susa: Immortal - ...


1000BC
I attacked early, with just the bare minimum of forces. The Immortals had to play zone defense, constantly being on the move, to cover several cities each - scaring AI's workers, and monitoring their settler movements. Having spotted a settler convoy, all Immortals in the area would converge in to intercept, then fan out again.

Top left: even a captured worker is helping keep watch over a part of Egyptian territory. This is appreciated, with my Immortal network stretched so very thin.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/96076/Balbes-WOTM07-1000BC1.jpg

I had dispatched 2 or 3 Immortals towards every rival. Shaka kept sending in waves of archers from the East, where he had built a city in the jungle. So I had to assemble a homeland defense force, too. Only then could I catch my breath (just a little) and divert some production to barracks and a settler.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/96076/Balbes-WOTM07-1000BC2.jpg

Carthage is a capital on a hill, and guarded by 5 archers, some of them City Defender. I decided that the cost of storming it with Immortals only would be prohibitive, and catapults would be necessary.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/96076/Balbes-WOTM07-1000BC3.jpg

Persepolis hired 2 scientists specialists, to generate a Great Scientist and lightbulb Mathematics. Meanwhile, money was being accumulated at 0% research, for the eventual full-speed run to Construction.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/96076/Balbes-WOTM07-1000BC4.jpg

Going for Catapults was, in essence, admitting the failure of the original plan. When the catapult forms the backbone of your army, it does not matter if the enemy has archers, or axes, or swords, or elephants - they all succumb to the massive collateral damage. It has no counter until the Longbow.

So, in the final analysis, it made sense to simply beeline to Catapults, without the massive slowdown suffered by my still weak economy because of the inside-enemy-borders supply costs for all those Immortals.

Immortals:
Built-18 Active-15 Lost-3
Workers:
Built-2 Active-8 Lost-0

Kills:
Archer-13 Worker/Settler-6 Chariot-2

Cities:
Owned-3 Razed-1

(...message split - continued in the next post...)

500BC
Ecbatana was founded, primarily to work the riverside cottages and finance the war effort.
I never researched or otherwise acquired Iron Working to clear all that jungle.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/96076/Balbes-WOTM07-500BC1.jpg

The Great Generals just kept coming. I settled 3 in the hammer-rich Susa; Persepolis and Pasargade would eventually get 2 each.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/96076/Balbes-WOTM07-500BC2.jpg

I did manage to knock out several minor cities with Immortals; AI capitals such as Athens, though, would definitely require cat support.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/96076/Balbes-WOTM07-500BC3.jpg

Research: Masonry - Pottery - Mathematics - Construction - off

Immortals:
Built-31 Active-24 Lost-7
Workers:
Built-2 Active-13 Lost-0

Kills:
Archer-55 Worker/Settler-15 Chariot-2

Cities:
Owned-4 Razed-4

1AD
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/96076/Balbes-WOTM07-1AD1.jpg

Research has been turned off for good. A steady stream of Catapults is pouring southwards. War weariness is becoming an issue - I already have Monuments built everywhere, nothing else I can do about it short of wiping out the rival nations.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/96076/Balbes-WOTM07-1AD2.jpg

Mecca and Medina fell; Damascus is under siege. Though Medina and Damascus are holy cities, and situated so close to Persia, for some reason no religions ever spread anywhere. This could have helped with the unhappiness...

Look at all these forests! At least a three-fold increase of the size of my army - if a little late.


Resource denial is still as important a duty as ever in the distant corners of the world.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/96076/Balbes-WOTM07-1AD3.jpg

Immortals:
Built-37 Active-20 Lost-17
Catapults:
Built-14 Active-10 Lost-4
Workers:
Built-2 Active-14 Lost-0

Kills:
Archer-134 Worker/Settler-19 Chariot-2

Cities:
Owned-6 Razed-4

125AD
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/96076/Balbes-WOTM07-125AD.jpg

Encountering the first enemy Catapult was an unpleasant surprise.
They do not require any resources to build (neither do Longbows).

500AD
Saladin and Alexander are no more; Caesar, reeling under heavy blows. Now Hannibal is preparing to meet his fate.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/96076/Balbes-WOTM07-500AD1.jpg

The river between Leptis and Susa had witnessed some of the bloodiest catapult combat ever. Cats were battling cats on grasslands, plains, hills, forests and jungle - very often at exactly 50% odds.

This also meant 50% losses; but Hannibal is out of cats and out of time. My stacks cannot be stopped. Even so, every small city of the enemy's now has got a sizable garrison...

And the capitals, much, much, more.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/96076/Balbes-WOTM07-500AD2.jpg

Immortals:
Built-51 Active-27 Lost-24
Catapults:
Built-48 Active-31 Lost-17
Workers:
Built-2 Active-8 Lost-5

Kills:
Archer-193 Catapult-17 Worker/Settler-35 Chariot-3

Cities:
Owned-8 Razed-8

Brilliant, Balbes. Thanks for the detailed analysis. This should help show people that are many different ways to skin a cat. Your approach to this game could not have been any more different to mine.

For example, my immortal stats would have been: Built 12, Active 11, Lost 1.

Great moves, Balbes. A very strategic, co-ordinated and ambitious war effort!

Can I ask where the second settler build was slotted in? I can't see it.

2000BC. I'd mistakenly written "Worker" instead - now corrected.

@Erkon and killercane: Thanks a lot guys, that really is good advice that I am sure more people than I have use for.

I have been playing my starts like this in Prince and Monarch games and have done really well. Of course I need to adapt for higher difficulty levels and your advice makes perfect sense.

The chronicles of Erkon, Mighty leader of Persia - The real story.

This is the world as I knew it in 1030 BC (I have just captured Mecca)
http://www.ledfelt.se/civ/world.jpg
The red arrow shows the movement of the troops.
http://www.ledfelt.se/civ/south.jpg
The first wave attacked two archers (at 98%) that were out in the open that Saladin moved to reinforce his capital. Medina had four archers. I lost three immortals (15%, 8%, 19%) and won at 56%, 80%, 76%, 85%. (1390 BC)

Then I got another two archers in the open.
The attack against Damascus was against three archers (1150 BC). All wins (59%, 24%, 54%). Then I got another archer in the open.

The new Immortals coming from the home lands replaced the units that had to heal, and when both Medina and Damascus was captured, I piled up Immortals against Mecca from all directions. I had several Immortals scouting the lands of the other civs, and they all converged at the same time towards Mecca.

Mecca had five defenders. I lost 4 Immortals (6%, 6%, 26%, 21%) and 2 retreated (6%, 15%). Wins was at 28%, 54%, 90%, 94%, 98%. My last unit was an archer. I had no other units available after the final battle <lol>
http://www.ledfelt.se/civ/gg.jpg
I got a Great General in the middle of the war, and was not far away from getting another one. I settled the GG for +2XP.

I didn't want to waste one turn for anarchy, since I didn't have any suitable tile to work in Persepolis, and I knew WW would drop after the war. So, I didn't switch to slavery.
http://www.ledfelt.se/civ/capital.jpg
I didn't prioritize barracks at the early years, but since I had to wait for units to heal before attacking Alexander, I judged that I could start barracks at Pasargadae.
http://www.ledfelt.se/civ/north.jpg
My relations to the other were ok:
http://www.ledfelt.se/civ/relations.jpg
I researched the alphabet in 1270 BC (first A.H, Mining, Wheel, Archery, Fishing, Writing) and got Pottery, Sailing, Mysticism, B.W, Masonry, Polytheism, and Priesthood.
http://www.ledfelt.se/civ/tech.jpg
I was in the middle of the tech race
http://www.ledfelt.se/civ/tech_trade.jpg
Other info regarding the state of the empire:
http://www.ledfelt.se/civ/finance.jpg
http://www.ledfelt.se/civ/domestic.jpg
http://www.ledfelt.se/civ/diplomacy.jpg

And the graphs:
http://www.ledfelt.se/civ/score.jpg
http://www.ledfelt.se/civ/gnp.jpg
http://www.ledfelt.se/civ/power.jpg
http://www.ledfelt.se/civ/goods.jpg

And this is the build queue:
3460 BC Worker
3160 BC Warrior
2710 BC Settler
2620 BC Warrior
2440 BC Archer
2290 BC Archer
2230 BC Work Boat
2110 BC Immortal
1990 BC Work Boat
1930 BC Archer
1840 BC Immortal
1810 BC Immortal
1690 BC Immortal
1660 BC Immortal
1540 BC Immortal
1510 BC Immortal
1420 BC Immortal
1390 BC Immortal
1300 BC Immortal
1300 BC Immortal
1180 BC Immortal
1180 BC Immortal
1090 BC Immortal
1060 BC Immortal
1060 BC Archer


17 Archers were defeated, and I lost 7 Immortals in the war.

@Harbourboy: Thanks for the compliment :)

@Balbes & Ekron: Both your games look like lots of fun. And thanks for the great spoilers, very easy to follow :goodjob:

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

When am I going to stop playing real late at night?

Does any one know how you can dow on a civ by just trying to contact them? I just did but do not know how.:wallbash: :wallbash: :wallbash:

I was doing well too on my first immortal Immortals.

Once I stop crying, I will post the essay I was putting togather.:cry: [pissed]

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

When am I going to stop playing real late at night?

Does any one know how you can dow on a civ by just trying to contact them? I just did but do not know how.:wallbash: :wallbash: :wallbash:

I was doing well too on my first immortal Immortals.


Most likely you misclicked. The comment 'When am I going to stop playing real late at night?' perhaps makes that more likely? ;)

Are you sure they didn't declare war on you just by coincidence at the same time as you tried to contact them?


Once I stop crying, I will post the essay I was putting togather.:cry: [pissed]

Lots of sympathy :(

I have a similar blunder in my game as well, but that will have to wait for the next spoiler.

@Balbes & Ekron: Both your games look like lots of fun. And thanks for the great spoilers, very easy to follow :goodjob:

I second that. Are you both going for a fast conquest? Or would you back off the assult once the Immortals become obsolete?

Most likely you misclicked. The comment 'When am I going to stop playing real late at night?' perhaps makes that more likely?

Are you sure they didn't declare war on you just by coincidence at the same time as you tried to contact them?

I just found out either (already forgot) control or alt key plus clicking on the Civ to contact does the trick. It does not even ask you if I want to declare. It just does. Grrrrr. Oh well, it was not as if I would win with flying colors.:) All I am going to do is :lol: at the incident.....after couple of days from now. Oops its 2 AM and work awaits at 8AM.

@Harbourboy. I am guessing you are a better man than I and did not press the power button and walk away sulking?

I didn't want to waste one turn for anarchy, since I didn't have any suitable tile to work in Persepolis, and I knew WW would drop after the war. So, I didn't switch to slavery.

I don't understand this. To me Persepolis looked ripe for some serious whipping. Could you explain?

I don't understand this. To me Persepolis looked ripe for some serious whipping. Could you explain?

Poor explanation from me and perhaps poor play as well. I had one angry man from WW and one from population. I wanted to work the five tiles, and I think that the whip-unrest would have pushed me below the five tiles. I'll have to check the savefile though to get confirmation. Thanks for pointing that out.

I second that. Are you both going for a fast conquest? Or would you back off the assult once the Immortals become obsolete?

At 500 AD I was going of cultural victory. I took the decision at about 800 BC.

Very impressive, Balbes and Erkon. Perhaps it is as you say, Balbes, and your execution wasn't perfect. But it was a darn sight better than mine, let me tell you. I think your spoiler should prove to any remaining doubters out there that declaring war early and often is an excellent strategy.

Hey Balbes--great writeup and very interesting strategy.

One question--what about WW? I would think even with pretty low losses you would build that up pretty quick. Did you get HR at some point?

Perhaps it is as you say, Balbes, and your execution wasn't perfect. ... should prove to any remaining doubters out there that declaring war early and often is an excellent strategy.
Um, I think my execution was pretty close to perfect; my point was that the strategy itself wasn't as good as expected, and the experiment prove that. Here's how I think the fastest finisher will have played: The early development's pretty much the same, but instead of sending 2 immortals apiece to pillage every civ's lands, concentrate those 12 immortals against Alexander and Saladin, take all their cities by 1500BC - and keep them. Build cottages around Athens - and after the initial maintenance hit, they'll provide you with enough gold to support 5 or 6 loss-making but hammer-rich cities, the list starting with Sparta. Then tech to catapults and chop yourself a cat army with all those forests. You won't have to care if the enemy has war chariots, impi, or what have you. Though you may still want to pillage Caesar's Iron.

One question--what about WW? I would think even with pretty low losses you would build that up pretty quick. Did you get HR at some point?
I think the highest WW I ever had was -2 happy.

Thx for the detailed spoiler Erkon. Just what i meant....

Um, I think my execution was pretty close to perfect; my point was that the strategy itself wasn't as good as expected, and the experiment prove that.

Ah, well pardon me for misspeaking then. What I was really trying to say is that while you may see some room for improvement in your game, I think most of us wish we'd met with even a fraction of the success you had. :)

Yeah, resource denial doesn't seem to be worth it on this map (Although it is propably very usefull on lower levels). I never encountered that many defenders in AI cities, as I see on Balbes's screenshots, so it looks like declaring war and having units inside their borders makes them build more archers. Besides spearmen are not an ultimate disaster, the AI doesn't build a lot of them, and one spearman is just about as bad as 2-3 archers. So if you have to kill 5 archers instead of 2 archers and a spear it doesn't really help.

I managed to get a domination win in 10BC using the conventional strategy. BTW, I discovered construction and built some catapults, but I didn't really need them actually. :) Could have won with only immortals just as well. The key was capturing some cities early to boost production.

I settled on the bananas (if I knew where the horses are, I would have chosen 2S or course), then built another city to get horses &second gold. I built Stonehenge in Persepolis for culture & happiness, and I never learnt calendar. I took out Arabia & Greece by 500AD or so, so I had a solid production base soon. The map was perfect for that: two resourceless neighbours very close, no cities on hills, etc. I also built the HE in Persepolis, to boost my production further. The I crushed the AI one by one easily: Egypt, then Carthage, then Zululand. The catapults only took part in the two latter wars.

As usual I messed up the endgame and started spamming settlers to fill in the gaps too late. I think it was possible to win 10-15 turns earlier. Killing Shaka was completely unnecessary of course, I had enough land with just Greece, Arabia, Egypt & Carthage, plus the massive tundra regions.

managed to get a domination win in 10BC

As usual I messed up the endgame

Hmm. Those two quotes seem to be completely incompatible. A win by 10BC? I barely had 3 cities by then and was under threat of being overrun by Arabians at that point. How is a win possible by 10BC, including "messing up"?

Besides spearmen are not an ultimate disaster, the AI doesn't build a lot of them, and one spearman is just about as bad as 2-3 archers.

I wish that was true in my case. I lost 8 highly promoted Immortals taking down 1 impi.

I managed to get a domination win in 10BC using the conventional strategy.

What do you mean by "conventional strategy"?

As usual I messed up the endgame and started spamming settlers to fill in the gaps too late. Killing Shaka was completely unnecessary of course, I had enough land with just Greece, Arabia, Egypt & Carthage, plus the massive tundra regions.

I would love to even come close to the "messed up" finale of your game.

I think you wisdom to take shaka out is right on. I left him with 1 city just to find him a few centuries later with 3 more.

:hatsoff:

Hmm. Those two quotes seem to be completely incompatible. A win by 10BC? I barely had 3 cities by then and was under threat of being overrun by Arabians at that point. How is a win possible by 10BC, including "messing up"?It must be a typo. Notice he mentions later that he'd taken out just Arabia & Greece by 500AD. But I agree, this requires a bit more elaboration than "I won the conventional way!" There was nothing at all "conventional" about this map!

It must be a typo. Notice he mentions later that he'd taken out just Arabia & Greece by 500AD. But I agree, this requires a bit more elaboration than "I won the conventional way!" There was nothing at all "conventional" about this map!
Obormot is one of the strongest players around. The typo is surely that 500AD should be 500BC.

I am currently at 1100ad. While I did better than I expected, I'm pretty clearly not going to win -- not trying to give anything after 500ad away here, just want to give the context for others to read my comments, as instructional or cautionary. But I did have some early success in the BC and early AD years (well, by my standards anyway, not by a great player's though I suppose) that does give me hope that I will reach the level of being able to compete at this level some day, I definitely made progress just within the last week of prepping playing with the test games AgedOne & RobertTheBruce posted to the pregame discussion thread (thanks again!) & then playing the game itself.

Frankly overall my game wasn't that instructive for others to study. However in my brief history posting to these GOTM threads, what I try to do is find one interesting event/turning point and focus on it, trying to identify at least one lesson to take out of each game I play; by posting it here after establishing general context, maybe others can learn from it too.

Background: A casual Monarch player takes a shot at Immortal

This is my first "real" game ever on Immortal (or even Emperor or above really -- I played one Emperor game a long time ago in an early version vanilla game, and got thoroughly spanked. I would say I am a Monarch player, leaning to the side of Prince? I also don't play much, Got civ4 about a year ago after not playing civ since civ 1 (!), didn't play much in the summer, then started playing again towards the end of the year. I'm stretched to finish one GOTM a month and I've only played a few games so far in Warlords. Given that I was pleasantly surprised how I was doing, by ~ 200 AD I was ahead of two other civs, and had come out on the positive side from the two real wars I had, with Shaka and Arabia. But then came the moment I had my lesson handed to me.
Initial settlement: Where to?

I established Persepolis on the bananas, based upon the pregame discussion & my test play of RobertTheBruce's save. Like AU_Armeggedon I moved 2 sw to the hill and when I got there & saw both gold, I thought about settling on the hill instead of banana. Unfortunately I went ahead and settled on banana -- I still think it was the right choice given what I knew at the time, but luck would have it of course that the horses turned up where they did, in hindsight the hill would have been a better choice?
First 2000 years (70 turns): building up capital, connecting resource, & developing tech infrastructure

My first 70 or so turns (to about 2000bc) I concentrated strongly on the above list. By turn 80 I already had all the resources in the cross hooked up (including both sea), had both barracks plus a couple archers, and even soon would have a library there, already researching writing and whipping the building right after discovering it in 1690 bc (I was worried about falling behind in tech like I did in my practice game, as detailed in my pregame post -- it turned out I had good reason to worry). Having all 4 of the food squares in the fat cross (not to mention banana city site) let me bounce back really fast from whipping. Believe it or not I never used slavery much before, but this game I went into overdrive. Building the library also allowed me to expand my borders twice as fast, after discovering AH and seeing the horses I realized the double use of the library, cultural expansion as well as research (I did not have any religions yet, or stonehenge). Unlike some others though when I was looking for a second city I chose not to put a city down there to work it directly -- I was worried it would not amount to much other than hooking up horses, there was not enough food, and I saw I could get it hooked up before 2000bc without it. Instead I built Pasargadae on the other side of the starting settler position, on the hill along the other lake coast a few squares NE of the settler starting position. Concentrating on building up Persepolis, I did not found it until 1750bc. FYI the only other city I built, Susa, was not built until 230ad, almost as an afterthought after I had already captured a handful of enemy cities. I founded it north of the mountain near the top of the same lake coast that Persepolis/the bananas etc were on. I mostly founded to to keep Hannibal who had built/captured from barbs a couple cities in the north end of the home "section."

I don't know if I'dve been better off building more cities and/or earlier; I guess I was trying to avoid the maintenance drag I found in my test games from building/keeping captured cities too much. I sent the scout more or less straight north (wandering to the north coast far away) and did not realize the character of the map -- that there were these three strategic "Themopolyae" mountain passes (ainwood, you really got in the spirit of 300 this month, didn't you? LOL) -- until it was too late. If I had known I probably would have strongly considered "sealing off" the space by building the two cities ASAP at the mouth of each, perhaps letting only one other civ in (then declaring on them most likely). This is a game IMO that preknowledge of the map would be more valuable than ever. But by the time I saw the layout clearly I already had Shaka, Caesar, and Hannibal (the latter being #1 & #2 in score) inside the "sector," plus Saladin eventually built a city on the plains at the opening of the southern pass (though much later, too late to grab the horses from me).
First Zulu War (1060-730 BC)

After building nothing more than one warrior & then a couple archers late in the first ~80 turns, when I finally got the horses hooked up around then I went into full scale Immortal production. After about 20 turns of that, in 1060 BC I finally declare war on the Shaka, who have founded uMgungundlovu at the north shore of the bay straight west of Persopolis/bananas 5 squares. It is a very successful war, uMgungundlovu falls to me within 3 turns, pushing Zulus completely out of my home "section."

The Zulu war was a war of convenience and ease -- they founded a city far from their home base, separated from the rest of their lands by Roman territory, and it was easy to pluck that city, nearly perfectly located for my purposes, and add to my production research base. Not to mention, it has copper in fat cross and that becomes my first military metal source! I had been well in last place until capturing uMgungundlovu, but with it I quickly move into striking distance of the lower half of the pack.

I heal/build up a little more and, with objectives achieved & Shaka's remaining territories far away, in 730 BC I end the Zulu war after just 12 turns (getting a little money as well as the captured city) and turn to declare war on Saladin immediately. Effectively the war actually ended after only three turns, the remaining nine I had to wait before he would speak with me, and I had already move the immortals south to scout Saladin & position for attack immediately.
Arabian War (730 BC - 185 AD)

As I said above, the Zulu war was tactical, to grab that one city, and even to build XP to some degree. The Arabian war was strategic, I aimed to take them out & use their empire to catapult me into the upper half of the pack and contention. Saladin is actually in 2nd place when I attack, but I think mostly on the basis of tech and religion (he founded two, Hinduism and Christianity). His military, my scouting with immortals finds, is mostly archers, he has no spearman, and he only has one metal (iron) which he has just hooked up (I got just IW myself in 850bc, along with 3 other techs, after getting alphabet and then trading -- yes, I got alphabet before IW, maybe that's strange but I knew my initial military push would be based on immortals so I thought the different path worked for me). Archers! Perfect adversary for the immortals!

Saladin has a ton or workers (well over a dozen) and in the first turn I nab at least four. Then I settle in to pillaging mode, stripping his land clean with mobile immortals (beelining in particular for the iron hex) while his heavily promoted-archer defended cities sit passively. Fifteen turns into the war I have a lot of gold & take and raze Narjan, the city he built at the southern pass (it may have been a mistake to raze that, more later). I also have pillaged the iron. Pretty much all Saldin can do is build archers, and whenever they venture out of the cities over the next couple dozen turns I take a break from pillaging and kill then, building up my immortal XP (I have a few that are over 20 xp by 0 ad). He is putty in my hand, powerless to stop me. I grab (and keep) Baghdad, SE of mecca & the birthplace of Christianity, in 340 BC, using immortals and maybe one axeman. It takes one immortal sacrifice to soften up each defending archer though, so I decide to wait for catapults (I was 17 turns away from finishing research on construction when Baghdad fell) before taking on mecca or other non-tundra cities which, unlike Baghdad, all have walls. and 50%+ defence. i continue pillaging to fund my research effort & keep Saldin helpless, pausing military production to build mostly infrastrucure (including barracks in non-capital cities) in my 4 city empire for that 17 turn stretch

I get Construction in 85 BC, whip out 4 catapults, and 18 turns later (185 AD) I capture Mecca. My territory now stretches through the southern pass and then to the SE through Mecca (next to the iron) and on to Baghdad, almost down to the coast.

Two other things happen in this period: 1) Caasar asks me to DOW on Shaka again in 25 BC, and I comply, even actually sending two immortals over to the far west to do some selective pillaging. I am one of Caesar's best buddies now, and I haven't even declared a religion yet (which I plan to do, matching his). 2) Alex declares on me 3 turns before I capture Mecca. It doesn't seem like he can do much to me (I'm even ahead of him in score, see below), but as he borders the west of the Arab territories, I have to at least watch my back.
My strategy has gone well so far I think, much better than I'd thought I'd do at immortal level, I've climbed from initially deep in the basement score-wise to the middle of the pack by 185 AD, with Caesar and Hannibal ahead of me, but relatively friendly (+5 and +2 at the time I think, without me declaring religion yet & they are both Hindu, which I get from capturing Mecca), Shaka and Alex behind me, though Alex only slightly. Ramses I'm a little behind too, but not much & he is on the other side of Hannibal and Alex and irrelevant to me at this point (and for at lleast the next thousand years it turns out, as anythign other than a trading partner and potential enemy-of-my-enemy), and my power will grow quickly I figure as I assimilate Baghdad and Mecca, and finish rebuilding up the Zulu city I captured 80 turns before -- not to mention when I finish off Saladin, whose poor archers can't stop me without outside help.

The Arabian empire is also still slightly ahead of me in score, but Saladin is essentially defanged, ripe fruit ready to be plucked. I have taken away it's metal sources and it has been split in half, one major city to each side of Mecca. The one to the east, now completely isolated, is the Hindu holy city, and Hinduism is the #1 world religion, and the religion of both Caesar and Hannibal, the only two civs well ahead of me.

December 31st, 185 AD: The Day that Will Live in Persian Infamy!

OK, here comes the moment where I learn my big lesson, the turning point of the game perhaps, the one that others may get something out of (sorry it took so long to get here, didn't intend that!) This is where I snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in the Arabian War. This was my "Santa Ana moment" (for those that know Mexican history).

The scene was set above, I'm poised to move from middle to upper echelon of the score rankings by finishing off Saladin, he is helpless at my feet, at this point his lands are just about 100.00% pillaged and all he can really build is archers, my now heavily experienced immortals slice through them like butter whenever they venture outside city walls. I may even have more immortals than he has archers, maybe a dozen by now. His remaining cities have high defense values, but I still have two (heavily wounded) catapults that survived the Mecca siege and more in the queue. I can probably take each city at <= the same cost as Mecca (2-3 cats and maybe an immortal or two each, after a few turns of barrage?) BUT, I need to finish the next batch of cats & let the immortals heal. Also, I've been concentrating on production and worrying about falling behind in tech vs potential future targets.

Thinking that I am acting in my long term interests (catch up in tech) with no significant impact to my short term goals (finish conquest of Saladin), I inquire what he will give me for a 10 turn cease fire. He offers Priesthood, Monotheism, and Currency, plus a little gold. That's everything he has to offer except Calendar, and well over 1000 points of research. Figuring I'd be regrouping/healing/finishing & moving up the cats for almost 10 turns anyway, and also running into some war weariness problems after 101 turns of continuous war (wel;l over half the game), I take the three techs plus gold that Saladin offers me for a 10 turn cease fire in 185 AD, confident I would be exploding back upon him to finish him off completely right after it expires. He still has a gob of workers holed up in his cities but I'm not worried about him reestablishing his economy/military much with them, in only 10 turns he'll just be improving the land for my benefit when I capture him, and/or giving me more pillaging revenue.

This was the moment I unwittingly squandered my chances in the game, partially due to lack of experience with Warlords .. and maybe partially because it was well, well after midnight! :D I'll give you a chance to predict what happened right after I hit "next turn" after signing that peace treaty with Saladin in 185 AD ...

... OK, time's up! After I click next turn, I see the message that makes my heart stop: "Saladin has agreed to become a vassal of the Carthaginian Empire." Hannibal, the #2 player, the one that borders the opposite side of my empire from Arabia, the one I had been (successfully) courting to be friendly to me. Now I could only resume my war and finish off Saladin & take the Hindu holy city, etc. by essentially declaring war on Hannibal as well & opening up myself to invasion from the opposite side of the empire. Sigh. Mecca's still in rebellion obviously, without any cultural borders yet (I just captured it the turn before) and so to add insult to injury, within a couple turns Saladin has moved a settler to location just south of the mountain pass and founded a city there, sealing me off from getting any more units south to Mecca or Baghdad, without taking the long way through Roman lands. Obviously that inability to move north-south easily makes a two front Saladin+Hannibal war even more unpalatable, as if there needed to be any more reasons.
Just how much can one little 10 turn peace treaty hurt you?

If I'd been able to resume the war after the peace treaty expired that new city might've been a minor inconvenience, an extra target to get money from, but having concluded I couldn't bring a war with Saladin's master Hannibal upon me, well I was stuck with living with it, aka really screwed. Two of my six cities were cut off by the closed borders with Saladin's new city, and I had the war Alex declared four turns earlier to deal with. Meanwhile Alex DID have the open borders with Saladin, which allowed him to use the roads all those Arab workers were rapidly rebuilding to harass me effortlessly, pounincing on any poorly defended workers or improvements. I couldn't attack any of these units sitting just outside my borders because that would require declaring war on both Saladin and Hannibal to go along with my war with Alex. Sigh.

Consequences: I've played another thousand years & not to give anything away about after 500 AD for others, but I think it's safe to say my decision to dally 10 turns for the ceasefire was my ... well, my Thermopylae (ainwood should be happy). Just like the with the 300 in that battle, the brief delay Arabia bought with their tech sacrifice gave time to save the rest of their civilization. Xerxes dallied, then was held up three days, which was turned to critical effect by the Athenians at the great victory at Marathon, defying all odds to save Greek & (and thus all future Western) civilization. Cyrus (me) gave Saladin time/opportunity to obtain protection from Hannibal, and Arabia came back with a vengeance, with Alex's (unintentional?) help. I still hold Baghdad, but eventually lost Mecca to Alex not too long after 500AD. This flipped the iron next to Saladin into his borders (although he may have already gotten some from the tundra areas to the south by then?) and let him establish a non-archer army, a thousand years later he is probably in better shape than me, and some time ago expanded enough to break away from vassalage to Hannibal! I spent most of those years fighting off Alex. So, I pretty much stagnated/fell further off the leaders for those next thousand years. In hindsight to better recover from my blunder I might have been better off giving away Mecca to Rome to bribe them to enter the war on my side, but by the time I thought of it Mecca could only hold off a couple more turns, and Caesar was in another war and not interested in declaring. I maybe should have just given it away to him even for nothing, in the end defending it cost me more than it was worth :(

My ultimate conclusion:
If I had just slogged on in continuous war another ~30 turns and ignored building war weariness, pressing my huge advantage over Saladin, I would have almost 100% certainly completely conquered him, and might have been one of the three major empires in the game at 500AD, nearly a peer to Hannibal and Caesar. I would have owned the Hindu holy city, and both were Hindu at the time (Caesar later flipped to Judaism). I would have had a lot of options for paths to victory from there. Likely I would have eventually routed Alex next, and then perhaps Ramses? Instead, well .... :cry:
Well, that's it, this was a lot longer than I intended. At 1100 AD, I can perhaps survive indefinitely, maybe even to the end, but I'm now a civilization backwater, too small to compete & too far behind to grow. So I'm thinking about just resigning and move on to the vanilla GOTM. Like I said I don't want to say much since it's post 500AD, but I'm giving no useful details so I hope it's OK, and I don't really have much to say for spoiler #2 so I might as well put it all here. I will conclude by saying that I did enjoy the game though, the map was really a surprise (I did not expect ainwood to go that far with the "300" theme!) and that I think I learned improved my game a lot through my practice and play. Though I did not win, ironically the experience gave me for the first time the confidence that I might be able to play above Monarch successfully. I look forward to furhter reading & learning from others posts on this game, and also to the next Emperor-level GOTM, I've never tried one before but now I'm eager and (ironically) confident ...

Hmm. Those two quotes seem to be completely incompatible. A win by 10BC? I barely had 3 cities by then and was under threat of being overrun by Arabians at that point. How is a win possible by 10BC, including "messing up"?

I could have won faster then that. In GOTM, it is important to synchronize many different things in the endgame, for example when going for a culture win all 3 cities should ideally reach legendary status on the same turn, when going for a conquest win you should have your forces split into several groups and each such group should capture a city on the last turn, etc. Fast domination is like conquest, but much more tedious, because you also need to estimate how much land to conquer, build the settlers to fill gaps, move the settlers to spots you plan to settle, etc. This is not important when you are playing "just for fun", but in a competition game carefull planning of the endgame saves many turns. I find it to be quite boring though, and I am not very good at it. The result is good, but could have been better if I was more carefull in the end.

In this game the AI didn't have enough time to fill all of the map and the vast tundra areas were mostly empty. So the plan was to settle all this empty land and expand borders by hiring artists in the last few turns to push myself over the domination limit. I needed about 15 settlers to fill all the gaps, plus there is some time needed to move those settlers into position, so I should have started building them well in advance. Conquering Greece, Arabia, Egypt and Carthage, plus settling all the tundra would have been enough for domination. But by the time I conquered all that the settlers were still not ready, because I miscalculated the time needed for my army to conquer Carthage, etc.


I wish that was true in my case. I lost 8 highly promoted Immortals taking down 1 impi.

I think that for a typical AI capital (high culture, but not on hills) you need about 2 immortals per archer and 5 immortals per spearman. (But I try to bring more, just to be sure). 8 immortals per impi is a bit unlucky, but quite possible. I killed Arabia & Greece before they connected metal. Egypt had metal, but they only built 2 spears, and one of them moved out to kill my immortal. When I was fighting Carthage & Zulu I already had catapults, so spears/impis were not a big problem.


I think you wisdom to take shaka out is right on. I left him with 1 city just to find him a few centuries later with 3 more.

Shaka was the last AI I killed. It was not necessary, because I could have reached domination without killing him. To put it short, I should have stopped building troops and started building settlers much earlier then I did.


What do you mean by "conventional strategy"?

Conventional compared to Balbes's strategy. He sent several small groups of immortals in all directions for resource denial and choking, while I concentrated on one AI at a time in the early game. The downside was that the AI got metal in my game, but capturing some cities early turned out to be more important.


The typo is surely that 500AD should be 500BC.

Yes, that's right.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

When am I going to stop playing real late at night?

Does any one know how you can dow on a civ by just trying to contact them? I just did but do not know how.:wallbash: :wallbash: :wallbash:

I was doing well too on my first immortal Immortals.

Once I stop crying, I will post the essay I was putting togather.:cry: [pissed]Ouch, that was worse than my two brainless boo-boos in this game. I'm not talking about my decision discussed above to get a 10 turn ceasefire with Persia when I had them on the ropes (thought it was in fact way too late, I might have made that mistake when more awake too, the consequences required foresight), I'm talking about these two smaller mess-ups I didn't mention:

I wanted to use one of my first great generals to add a military instructor to a city. In a semi-conscious state I click on the button ... then realize I have clicked on the attach to unit icon, not military instructor. I now am the proud owner of a city garrison archer with 26 xp. I'll honest, in any game other than a GOTM I would reload from last save here. All units produced in my main production city (which later had heroic epic) had 2 less xp for the rest of the game. That's just correcting stupid human error, and not cheating. I want to lose because I didn't play the right strategy, not because I clicked the wrong button by accident (not that this boo boo changed the outcome of my wotm07 game).

Late in my Arabian war Hannibal contacts me and asks me to convert to Hinduism. I was planning to do this soon anyway, but just to be safe I hit F4 to look at relations to make sure there is no unintended impact, when I 'm done I click on exit from the F4 diplomacy screen. I guess I've never done that before? I thought I was just opening then exiting from the diplomacy screen but somehow that also was interpreted as a refusal to convert! I see a dialog box with a frowning Hannibal saying I would regret my refusal, and I have a nice a -1 relationship modifier with him (someone important to court in my strategy). Argh! Isn't it supposed to be possible to open and close an information screen while in dialog with a leader? I'm still not sure what happened.

The game did not go well :mad:

(It did in the start, or so I thought :p .... took out most of Zulu, and was doing good at harassing the Carthaginians ... then "turtled" to try and catch up to everyone else ...)

Arabia and the Carthaginians are closing in on my last three cities .. with Knights and Maces against my archers, immortals and axemen...

I expect to be conquered in the next few turns...

Question: What do you do for a conquered endgame?? (might as well post my loss) .... Do I save the turn during which I will lose and submit that, then wait till I;m conquered and then submit save and replay file

-thanks

You submit the save immediately before you got smoked and tick the box on the submission form that says that this is the save before conquest (otherwise know as the "I got beaten up" button.)

My ultimate conclusion:
[I]If I had just slogged on in continuous war another ~30 turns and ignored building war weariness, pressing my huge advantage over Saladin, I would have almost 100% certainly completely conquered him, and might have been one of the three major empires in the game at 500AD, nearly a peer to Hannibal and Caesar. I would have owned the Hindu holy city, and both were Hindu at the time (Caesar later flipped to Judaism). I would have had a lot of options for paths to victory from there. Likely I would have eventually routed Alex next, and then perhaps Ramses? Instead, well .... :cry: ..

I sympathize - my game played out similar to yours with some differences. I'll post my endgame in the other thread when I have time.

I'm not sure I agree with your analysis of your downfall, though. I think it's quite likely that Saladin would have become a vassal of Hannibal whether you had sued for peace or not, which would either have forced you to make peace with Saladin (and get no tech booty from the deal) or drawn Hannibal into the war. I've seen both happen, but much more the latter. So it's quite possible that if you hadn't made peace then, you would have been in a worse state by having Hannibal enter the war and/or a peace with fewer techs.

Thalaba

MarkM: May I suggest that you continue your game past 1100ad. I was in a broadly similar situation and the game got very interesting very quickly (AIs get cheap upgrades on immortal).

hm...well, I'll just say for now I was conquered in 830AD. I'll post my spoiler up through 500AD in here later, nothing worth mentioning past that, unfortunately.

I managed to get a domination win in 10BC using the conventional strategy.


That's an amazing time Obormot. How did you deal with the economy problem? Caste system?

I sympathize - my game played out similar to yours with some differences. I'll post my endgame in the other thread when I have time.

I'm not sure I agree with your analysis of your downfall, though. I think it's quite likely that Saladin would have become a vassal of Hannibal whether you had sued for peace or not, which would either have forced you to make peace with Saladin (and get no tech booty from the deal) or drawn Hannibal into the war. I've seen both happen, but much more the latter. So it's quite possible that if you hadn't made peace then, you would have been in a worse state by having Hannibal enter the war and/or a peace with fewer techs.Thanks, I'll watch for it.

Like I said, I don't have a lot of experience with Warlords. I assumed a civ could not become vassal of another civ while they were at war, and that me granting the peace treaty is what gave Saladin the window to do it. Are you saying Saladin would have been just as likely to become Hannibal's vassal if we were still at war, and it was just a coincidence it happened right after I granted the treaty? Would Hannibal have immediately declared war on me then if he had accepted Saladin as his vassal (since if one civ in a vassal-master pair is at war, the other one automatically is too, right?) I thought maybe the fact that Hannibal was mildly disposed to me at the time (something like +2 or +3) might have at least affected his decision about whether to accept Saladin as his vassal if Saladin offered -- in other words, he'd at least be less likely to take Saladin as vassal if it meant having to DOW on me, if his relationship with me was at least a little warm. It seems like that should figure into the AI decision, I know as a human I'm influenced in a decision to accept a vassal by whether he comes with "strings of war" attached.

By the way, I perhaps overstated how strong I would be once I wiped out Saladin, I probably would still be an underdog in the game. But I had made a climb from the absolute cellar in the first 2k years to almost middle of the pack, and grabbing the rest of Arabia would presumably only push me higher. In other words, my point was I was doing better than I expected (score-wise) and was at lest steadily rising in the ranks, and it seemed to be this one specific event (and/or my reaction to it) that ended the climb.

MarkM: May I suggest that you continue your game past 1100ad. I was in a broadly similar situation and the game got very interesting very quickly (AIs get cheap upgrades on immortal).I'll consider that. My only problem is that I pretty much abandoned my game strategy at that point, I did not much more than just try to hang onto what I already had for the next 1000 years, and surrendered the initiative. Maybe my reaction to this unexpected event (pull like a turtle into my shell) was more the problem than the event itself. As I said in my post, in hindsight I should have considered trying something decisive, for example giving away Mecca (which I expended great effort in a failed attempt to hold) to Caesar as a bribe to bring him into a war on my side & distract Hannibal and Alex. Or to Ramses to get him to DOW against Alex, and regained a city or two that way. they may not even have bit, but it would have kept the initiative. I lacked the imagination to even think of it until much later (too late), instead I just cranked out longbowmen and pikemen for continuous defensive stands.

Thanks, I'll watch for it.

Like I said, I don't have a lot of experience with Warlords. I assumed a civ could not become vassal of another civ while they were at war, and that me granting the peace treaty is what gave Saladin the window to do it. Are you saying Saladin would have been just as likely to become Hannibal's vassal if we were still at war, and it was just a coincidence it happened right after I granted the treaty? Would Hannibal have immediately declared war on me then if he had accepted Saladin as his vassal (since if one civ in a vassal-master pair is at war, the other one automatically is too, right?) I thought maybe the fact that Hannibal was mildly disposed to me at the time (something like +2 or +3) might have at least affected his decision about whether to accept Saladin as his vassal if Saladin offered -- in other words, he'd at least be less likely to take Saladin as vassal if it meant having to DOW on me, if his relationship with me was at least a little warm. It seems like that should figure into the AI decision, I know as a human I'm influenced in a decision to accept a vassal by whether he comes with "strings of war" attached.


I