After seeing 300 my friend and I were trying to remember a battle where a small triangular formation of soldiers defeated a much larger force.

And? Try finishing the paragraph.

After seeing 300 my friend and I were trying to remember a battle where a small triangular formation of soldiers defeated a much larger force.

Trangular formations aren't very good because the corners are far too exposed. Squares & rectangular formations were used from ancient times until the late 19th century. 300 may be a very entertaining movie, but don't think for a second that it's historically correct in any way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_stand

Maybe the Battle of Watling Street (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Watling_Street)?

If they won, it wasn't a Last Stand. :)

If they won, it wasn't a Last Stand. :)

Are you sure? On the wiki link, I saw the Battle of Posada, where the Wallachians defeated the Hungarians, (which had an army more than three times bigger, etc). And that is (according to wiki) considered a "last stand".
I'm not sure, English is not my first language. :)

I guess they could win and then retire from the military. I guess that would be a last stand.

Also, the topic starter failed to realize that the 300 Spartans did not win.

So Jan Zizka battles (he never lost):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Sudomer 1:6
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_V%C3%ADtkov_Hill 1:9
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_N%C4%9Bmeck%C3%BD_Brod 1:6

Masada, anyone?

Spearmen could form a really packed circle.

What about spanish-aztec battles?

Remember the alamo!

I've always been fond of the Battle of Camerone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Camerone

The last 45 of the 44th at Gandamak on the retreat from Kabul. Against several thousand they were offered the chance to surrender, replied "Not bloody likely" and the captain tied the colours round him.

The essence of the last stand is the certainty that you will all die and the desire to make the other guy pay a dear as possible for it.

What about this guy? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiroo_Onada)

How about this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_Sihang_Warehouse

How about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Warsaw_%281920%29

Known as the Miracle at the Vistula.

A "Last Stand" makes me think of a situation when one side has its back against the wall with poor odds going for them.

If you look at the list in REDY's link ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_stand ) there are several battles mentioned where the side making the last stand is victorious.

I nominate the battle of Cetatea Neamtului, from 1691 (not sure about year): 20 Romanians in a castle fought an army led by Jan Sobieski, after he had just saved Europe from Turks. The result was a peace treaty clearly in the disfavor of Sobieski. The siege lasted 10 days. Only 12 people were alive at the end. It is said that Sobieski had no idea how little people there were in the castle. :)

I notice none of you mention Colonel Custer. :[

The last 45 of the 44th at Gandamak on the retreat from Kabul. Against several thousand they were offered the chance to surrender, replied "Not bloody likely" and the captain tied the colours round him.

The essence of the last stand is the certainty that you will all die and the desire to make the other guy pay a dear as possible for it.

Well damn, that rules out my personal favourite - Arnhem Bridge. Some of the characters and annecdotes from the fighting there are priceless. :D

Camerone is a good one, although not completly a last stand.
65 legionnaires fought against 1600 Mexicans during 11 hours, killing 300 Mexicans and wounding 300 others.

The 5 remaining legionnaire, out of bullet, charged the Mexicans with baionet. Three were quickly killed or wounded, the last 2 were beaten to the ground.
The Mexican commander manage to prevent his men from killing the legionnaire. He asked them one last time to stop the fight. They agreed to stop if they were allowed to keep their weapon and flag and tend to their wounded. The Mexican commander agreed.
8 legionnaires were exchanged later against Mexican prisonners.

What I love about Camerone is I once heard that there's a memorial on the scene of the battle and even now, Mexican soldiers salute it if they march past it.

Whether that's true or not is open to debate of course heh but I just like the idea that you can still respect an honourable enemy.

Well damn, that rules out my personal favourite - Arnhem Bridge. Some of the characters and annecdotes from the fighting there are priceless. :D

Clarkson's father in law using a mortar as an impromtu anti-tank gun?

What I love about Camerone is I once heard that there's a memorial on the scene of the battle and even now, Mexican soldiers salute it if they march past it.

Whether that's true or not is open to debate of course heh but I just like the idea that you can still respect an honourable enemy.

IIRC the Mexican commander agreed to their wild terms of surrender by saying "what can you do with people like this?"

The battle of Bicocca, during the italian wars, was a major victory for Spain, in which they faced a French + Swiss mercenaries force which outnumbered over 3 times, and the spaniards won , killing over 3.000 swiss and french soldiers, while not losing a single soldier.

"More generally, the battle made apparent the decisive role of small arms on the battlefield.[40] Although the full capabilities of the arquebus would not be demonstrated until the Battle of the Sesia (where arquebusiers would prevail against heavy cavalry on open ground) two years later, the weapon nevertheless became a sine qua non for any army which did not wish to grant a massive advantage to its opponents. While the pikeman would continue to play a vital role in warfare, it would be equal to that of the arquebusier; together, the two types of infantry would be combined into the so-called "pike and shot" units that would endure until the development of the bayonet at the end of the seventeenth century.[41] The offensive doctrine of the Swiss—a "push of pike" unsupported by firearms—had become obsolete. Indeed, offensive doctrines in general were increasingly replaced with defensive ones; the combination of the arquebus and effective field fortification had made frontal assaults on entrenched positions too costly to be practical, and they were not attempted again for the duration of the Italian Wars.[42]

As a result of the battle, the word "bicoca"—meaning a bargain, or something acquired at little cost—entered the Spanish language.[43]"

Clarkson's father in law using a mortar as an impromtu anti-tank gun?

Close but not quite. Clarkson's father in law - Major Robert Cain was a company commander in the 2nd Battalion South Staffords. His most famous exploits took place in the Osterbeek Perimeter, although he was also involved in some fighting around the St Elizabeth Hospital beforehand. Neither he nor the men in his command ever reached the bridge itself.

I was thinking more of men like Major Tatham-Warter of "A" Company, 2nd Parachute Battalion. He was the man who went about his duties at the bridge carrying an umbrella and wearing either a red beret or bowler hat. He apparently reasoned that they'd help identify him in battle since only a mad fool of an Englishman would be kitted out that way for a battle. :D

He's also supposed to have made an amusing reply at one point which was repeated in A Bridge Too Far, albeit under the guise of Major Carlyle. Bear in mind that this is at a point in the fighting where the small British para force is surrounded, cut off from reinforcements and under attack from tanks, infantry and artillery.

[an SS officer is approaching under a flag of truce] Major Harry Carlyle: Rather interesting development, sir.
[to the German] Major Harry Carlyle: That's far enough!
Major Harry Carlyle: We can hear you from there!
SS Panzer Officer: My general says there is no point in continuing this fighting! He wishes to discuss terms of a surrender!
Major Harry Carlyle: Shall I answer him, sir?
Lt. Col. John Frost: Tell him to go to hell.
Major Harry Carlyle: We haven't the proper facilities to take you all prisoner! Sorry!
[German officer looks confused] SS Panzer Officer: What?
Major Harry Carlyle: We'd like to, but we can't accept your surrender! Was there anything else?
[German officer walks off] Lt. Col. John Frost: Well; that's that.
[in German] SS Panzer Officer: They rejected our surrender offer. What are your orders, Herr General?
[in German] Lt. General Bittrich: Flatten Arnhem.

Good old British humour shining through at even the worst of times. :lol:

Well, McAuliffes' (sp?) answer at Bastogne was pretty good too, and he backed it up . . .

I notice none of you mention Colonel Custer. :[

Custer was an agressor, not a defender. It's only called Custer's Last Stand because nineteenth century Americans couldn't deal with the fact that Custer was a damned fool and that he got beat by the Sioux because of his own faults.

Yeah, Custer was an idiot.

Custer was an agressor, not a defender. It's only called Custer's Last Stand because nineteenth century Americans couldn't deal with the fact that Custer was a damned fool and that he got beat by the Sioux because of his own faults.

It was still famous.

for his foolishness rather than the valour in which it was fought....

The Battle of Karbala.

Tha Battle of Saragarhi is one of the greatest- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Saragarhi

Pokurcz - Battle of Warsaw 1920 is hardly a last-stand... it was a regular battle. It is true that Soviet Union was winning the Polish-Soviet war, but forces on both sides were comparable (according to Wiki 113-123k of Poles and 104-140k of Russians). The outcome was a miracle - it saved our Second Republic.

For me a last-stand reminds me Battle of Westerplatte 1939 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Westerplatte
it was a real last-stand: 182 Polish soldiers vs 3500 Germans plus 3 naval vessels (including a battleship Schleswig-Holstein) and 47-70 Stuka dive bombers. Attacked from land, sea and air they stand for 7 days even though the post was planned to defend itself for 12 hours.

Even though the Aussies won out in the end, I would still nominate the second Seige of Tobruk.

Wasn't the Battle of Haengju a last stand? Even if it wasn't, its a hell of a battle... I love those Hwachas!!!

What about spanish-aztec battles?

The Spanish had the help of numerous native allies. The armies were so big that it scarcely mattered who was larger: the Spanish gave the decisive edge to the Tlaxcalans, but the Spanish would have been helpless without their allies.

Yeah, Custer was an idiot.

That's a little unfair. He was blinded by the times: whites thought they had nothing to fear from the "savages". Pre-Little Bighorn, he was usually described as a commander who genuinely cared for his troops, not one who charged and charged and charged.

Custer was no fool. his downfall there was that he split his forces and as a result, his lines were seperated. it was a tactical error. however, the "Last Stand" notion was certainly concocted due to the American aversion to admitting defeat.

i'd consider a last stand as the defense of a piece of land under tremendous duress and facing significant numerical superiority. of course, 'retiring' or being 'wiped out' certainly is in the equation imo.

Dien Bien Phu in 1954 is perhaps one of the most classic last stands in modern history.

the siege on the fire base at Khe Sanh in 1968 qualifies imo.

Pusan during the Korean War comes to mind as well.

perhaps Galipoli for the Turks (although they staved off the poor Aussies et als)?

perhaps Galipoli for the Turks (although they staved off the poor Aussies et als)?

No, Gallipoli wasn't a last stand. Admittedly the Turkish army wasn't in the best shape, but Constantinople wasn't lightly defended, and an attack on the city wouldn't have worked so well, I think. Gallipoli was more the first line of trenches.

It was essentially just a bad area to attack.

It wasn't even that bad an area to attack; had the British done a better job coordinating their attacks, and actually paid a little attention to communications, they would have had a good chance of taking the peninsula.

It wasn't even that bad an area to attack; had the British done a better job coordinating their attacks, and actually paid a little attention to communications, they would have had a good chance of taking the peninsula.

I'd also throw the bit in there about battleships being made for shooting and not looking pretty, too.

Maybe the Battle of the Alamo.

I bought, with my Christmas money, a book written on Gallipoli. It was written in 1956, but the past doesn't change that much from year to year I think.

General Gordon at Khartoum.

No, Gallipoli wasn't a last stand. Admittedly the Turkish army wasn't in the best shape, but Constantinople wasn't lightly defended, and an attack on the city wouldn't have worked so well, I think. Gallipoli was more the first line of trenches.

It was essentially just a bad area to attack.
from a pyschological standpoint, i truly believe it was a 'last stand'; not in the true sense as you indicate. but the level of desperation and such certainly qualifies it as more than a pitched battle etc.

This is not famous last stand but interesting. On 14 March one division in Czech Silesia refused surrender to Nazists after German invasion and official Czechoslovak capitulation. They were leaded by Karel Pavlík and majority of them were fresh conscript. Fight was only about half of hour when they surrendered thanks official command from Czechoslovak staff. Two Czechoslovak soldiers were wounded, Germans loses were 6-18 dead/wounded. Later was Pavlík part of resistance after he was arrested in 1942 and he died in 1943 in Malthausen.

I'm quite surprised that no one has mentioned Saigo Takamori's last stand at the Battle of Shiroyama, the battle that inspired the last battle scene in "Last Samurai." 300,000 imperial troops versus Saigo's remaining 300-400 samurai. There were around 40,000 of them earlier in the Satsuma Rebellion of 1877, all well-trained and equipped with guns and cannons initially, but when they started running out of ammunition, they resorted to close-combat tactics and used bows and swords.

I just posted this in the Unknown Generals thread:

The Battle of the Persian Gate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Persian_Gate). Basically, 700 Persians almost cost Alexander the war. They held him up from entering Persis for a month, and fought to the last man.

I just posted this in the Unknown Generals thread:

The Battle of the Persian Gate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Persian_Gate). Basically, 700 Persians almost cost Alexander the war. They held him up from entering Persis for a month, and fought to the last man.

Its the next great movie of the year...

700

Maybe it'll make the damn Iranians stop whining over 300

Maybe the Battle of the Alamo.
300 Whitebois vs bout 3,000 wetbacks, of course that is a famous last stand! Even if the whiteboiz killed bout 1,500 wetbacks (numbers are all estimated)

Warned for trolling. - KD

Its the next great movie of the year...

700

Maybe it'll make the damn Iranians stop whining over 300

Only if Alexander were protrayed as a monsterous ghoul. :lol:

Only if Alexander were protrayed as a monsterous ghoul. :lol:

Nah, it'll only work if he's 8 feet tall, speaks with a British Accent and runs about in a Speedo ;)

Would the Battle of Haengju count as a last stand?

the Warsaw Uprising, anyone?
linky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_description_of_the_Warsaw_Uprising)
The key factor in the battle was the massive imbalance of weapons between the two sides. The German side was extremely well equipped whilst the Polish side had, initially, barely enough ammunition for a few days. The policy of one bullet, one German allowed the Polish fighters to sustain the uprising for many weeks at the cost of their own lives. Some areas fought for a full 63 days before an agreed capitulation took place. The losses on the Polish side amounted to 18,000 soldiers killed, 25,000 wounded and over 250,000 civilians killed; those on the German side amounted to over 17,000 soldiers killed and 9,000 wounded.

also STALINGRAD comes to mind.

I'm surprised the Battle of Berlin hasn't been mentioned yet...

The Best Fictional Last Stand:

The Last Stand of El Sordo, from "For Whom the Bell Tolls" -Hemmingway.

Perhaps the best 10 pages of modern literature.

The Battle of Helm's Deep. :mischief: