There's been a few discussions (mostly with me:mischief: ) about the ents and tom bombadil should be or do in the game. this thread is reserved for discussions on that topic and anything anyone else can think about having to do with the forces of nature

I had an idea: the watcher at the doors of moria. maybe have it spawn randomly somewhere on the map( water), and have it be able to travel up and down rivers. when it is near a unit, it has a chance of damaging or killing it.

what do you think? doable?

Ask Kael, he can do anything doably :mischief:

oh, and will the forests be named, ie Lothlorien, Fangorn

Mirkwood, help me...

Mirkwood could be this huge, huge place where half of your units die:eek: :D

Actually evrybody died after sauron got mirkwood in his possesion... Before that good animals where running around there...

how about the dwarves and bilbo - to my knowledge, they all lived happily ever after, apart for thorin of course

Alot of dwarwes, like Balin and Dain got killed in moria after they re-entered it...

i meant the hobbit really, as i prefer it to the actual LOTR

Certain one could be independant nations with their own units and cities, but not barbarian. Like Tom Bombadil. Has his own culture and units? but never declares war, only defends. Whereas the Ents could also have their own place which automatically spreads forests in it's cultural borders (or has free forest preserve building ability) and also does not declare war. Also you could have events specifically tied to nature. You could have black squirrels or the great winter, islands sinking, etc.

I myself don't think they should be a separate non-playable civ, just "barbarians", thought in Civ4 it doesn't make a lot of difference.

Ents could be special units that do not leave forrested areas.

Though they did in the story.

Yes but only extremely rarely. Just an idea. I just don't think that Ents as barbarians who attack anyone would really fit. Unless you could get them to only attack those of the evil alignment.

Make them two random events:
If you're cutting a forest, during the time you are (from start to finish) you might have an Ent kill your worker and start rampaging.
If you're preserving a forest, they (may) pop up and give you an Ent unit.
(this is assuming they aren't what gives you the Preserve Forest ability in the first place)

Whereas the Ents could also have their own place which automatically spreads forests in it's cultural borders (or has free forest preserve building ability) and also does not declare war..

The Ents did declare war, though. On Saruman. They were mainly pacifist, but when they went to war they were almost unstoppable.

I really saw that part of the book as Saruman declaring war on the Ents. He knew the forest was theirs and still had his Orcs running through it and utting down the Trees and diverting the water. They were defending. Saruman declared was and they crushed him into little, itty, bitty,:) pieces.

We discussed Ents as a wonder-derived special unit in another thread; perhaps this idea of having them as a separate civ, unavailable to the human player and with limited expansion, is also workable. They could start out this way:

*Entish Empire: lead by Treebeard (Spiritual, Protective).
Unique units:
Ent (replaces Worker, high strength value, never clears forests or jungles and has ability to plant them, can build forest preserves from start);
Huorn (initially replaces Warrior, much stronger and faster);
Enting (replaces Settler, high strength value, much higher build cost to slow down expansion of empire).
Possibly River-women, Mewlips, Gorcrows and Ravens could also be units unique to this civ.

The Entish Empire would not be in the Game Setup choice of playable civs. As you said earlier, they do not declare war. There would have to be some way of preventing them building most standard military units: as they acquire new technologies, their unique units would simply become more powerful to keep pace with the other civs.

Once somebody else builds the Search for the Entwives wonder, they gain the ability to construct Huorn units at the current strength level.

that would take complex coding...

How many unique units can a civ have?

an infinite amount. and even more in BTS.

The Entish Empire would not be in the Game Setup choice of playable civs. As you said earlier, they do not declare war. There would have to be some way of preventing them building most standard military units: as they acquire new technologies, their unique units would simply become more powerful to keep pace with the other civs.

Maybe you get a diplo penalty when you cut forests, maybe -.25 per forest chopping. (Chop enough and they might declare war anyway!) Possibly you can chop jungle as much as you want, since jungles don't do anything useful anyway.

With the approval of Elda King and the rest of you, I'd like to take on the task of designing the Entish civ (units, city styles, unique attributes etc). I've already begun thinking of ways to achieve some of the effects I mentioned.

Maybe ents can only declare war in extremely rare times... Like putting the <declarewar> in like >1/100 ?

Or if they get mad enough at you for chopping forests.

That would maybe get less diplo?

Maybe you get a diplo penalty when you cut forests, maybe -.25 per forest chopping. (Chop enough and they might declare war anyway!) Possibly you can chop jungle as much as you want, since jungles don't do anything useful anyway.

(ten characters)

But still Fangorn hadnt land... The forest was natures. He was a "herd".

Sounds really nice. Not sure if someone other than Ents should have Ent units though. Perhaps they become allies or get a large + bonus to friendship if you are the one that builds the wonder. The wonder should also just be for those civs that are good in alignment.

I don't like ents being a "civ", able to negociate with players, building cities, and improvements. I myself would prefer to have a Nature barbarian civ, but not at war with everyone. We could make their units stay inside their borders, unless at war, and make their borders "invisible" (100% alpha) and they invisible in the minimap. It would make they peaceful, unless the player decided to "declare war on nature". They should have also units like Eagles, the Old Willow-Man, and other units that attacked only when you entered their territory (maybe unable to move outside the cultural borders, except the Ents), but no settlers os similar.

That sounds really good Elda King. That would be pretty nice to see.

I think that Elda King's is the best idea so far.

I myself would prefer to have a Nature barbarian civ, but not at war with everyone. We could make their units stay inside their borders, unless at war, and make their borders "invisible" (100% alpha) and they invisible in the minimap. It would make they peaceful, unless the player decided to "declare war on nature". They should have also units like Eagles, the Old Willow-Man, and other units that attacked only when you entered their territory (maybe unable to move outside the cultural borders, except the Ents), but no settlers os similar.

Since this civ is going to have cultural borders (invisible or otherwise) won't it need cities to generate culture? If you wish to use barbarians as "Nature" in this mod, they will surely spawn cities at random locations like normal Civ 4 barbarians do, without having settlers.

However, it should be possible to change their city graphics so that they don't look like cities - more like sacred groves of trees or some such. And their worker-equivalents, if any, will only plant more forests or preserve them - not construct mines, pastures, windmills etc. Although Tolkien's Entwives did plants farms and orchards...

I'd still like to try designing this Nature civ. Making the barbarians peaceful will, in itself, be a considerable novelty. :lol:

Then we have radagast too...

Since this civ is going to have cultural borders (invisible or otherwise) won't it need cities to generate culture? If you wish to use barbarians as "Nature" in this mod, they will surely spawn cities at random locations like normal Civ 4 barbarians do, without having settlers.

However, it should be possible to change their city graphics so that they don't look like cities - more like sacred groves of trees or some such. And their worker-equivalents, if any, will only plant more forests or preserve them - not construct mines, pastures, windmills etc. Although Tolkien's Entwives did plants farms and orchards...

I'd still like to try designing this Nature civ. Making the barbarians peaceful will, in itself, be a considerable novelty. :lol:

it would be considered a minor nation. we'de have to give the leader a trait, and with python or SDK make it do what we want. there can only be one barbarian "civ" in civ4.

it would be considered a minor nation. we'de have to give the leader a trait, and with python or SDK make it do what we want. there can only be one barbarian "civ" in civ4.

So do we want normal barbarians in our modpack as well as the Nature civ?

i think so. since we don't have a pure goblin civ, i think they should be barbs.

all orcish units, like those that waylay Bilbo and the others in the mountains.

Independent orc bands, then - not controlled by the Shadow civ(s), not obeying Melkor or Sauron.

Perhaps there could be other nonaligned barbarian creatures too - such as the stone-giants, who Bilbo also saw in the Misty Mountains, and the giant spiders.

good idea. (though maybe having shadow being able to build giant spiders?)

Yeah. The goblins are not directly under Sauron's control, and are generally not satisfied when they are indirectly (see the bit in the books where Merry and Pippin are running with the Uruks).

...having shadow being able to build giant spiders?

Yes, that would fit. The mother of all giant spiders, Ungoliant, was originally a servant of Melkor, but turned against him. Some should serve the Shadow, some should be wild.

Chance to betray?

^^that's a good idea. HOwever, i don't think they could betray to the other side...just become barbarians that are currently residing in the Shadows' lands.

EDIT: How about having spiders being stationary and invisible, in places like mountain passes, where they can randomly appear sometimes...also, you couldn't send a force to kill them, you'd have to bring enough people on a "caravan" to not lose anyone. For exampe, Cirith Ungol.

EDIT: How about having spiders being stationary and invisible, in places like mountain passes, where they can randomly appear sometimes...also, you couldn't send a force to kill them, you'd have to bring enough people on a "caravan" to not lose anyone. For exampe, Cirith Ungol.

I like this:goodjob:

Good ideas... And I think that barbs don't build cities, the "barbarian cities" in the game are truly from a Minor Civ. Or at least it's what it seems in the civ file.

Good ideas... And I think that barbs don't build cities, the "barbarian cities" in the game are truly from a Minor Civ. Or at least it's what it seems in the civ file.

Which civ file exactly do you mean?

OK: so the Minor Civ with its cities become Nature (forest-style city graphics, invisible borders, no workers, unique units including Ents, Huorns, Ravens, Old Man Willow. The randomly-spawned barbarian units will remain barbarians, and include orcs, spiders, stone giants etc. :goodjob:

I remember playing a Civ IV scenario with a couple of minor civ. Can't remember the name, but you had the choice to play as the greeks, roman or persian. There was a couple of minor civ which were at war with everyone and didn't do any diplomacy. So Nature could be in a state of no diplomacy and be at peace with everyone, except if someone make too much harm to the forest or something like that.

Then again, for the barbs, we would simply not give them any settler and worker units and make them unable to have any cities. They only pillage the surrounding area where they are, and the number of barb unit generated must balance the fact that they have no city.

It's the Cilizations.xml, I think. They have like 2 factions for barbs, and as far as I understood one was the one that builds cities and the other is the one that has only roaming units.

It's the Cilizations.xml, I think. They have like 2 factions for barbs, and as far as I understood one was the one that builds cities and the other is the one that has only roaming units.

Great, I'll have a look ASAP.

Roaming units can capture cities, of course. So even if the barbarian-built cities become Nature-civ tree cities, barbarian cities may still exist as well. :)

I think Tom Bombadil should be part of the same basic 'wild, but not barbarian' civ as the Ents. Correct me if I'm wrong.

No.

Well, the trouble is, he is a significant character that should be included, but he doesn't deserve a civ of his own ... maybe the Elves or the Ents.

probably ents, your right...

Why not handle stuff like the Ents and TomBombadil as special events?

When you chop a certain number of trees you might end up with an army of angry ents on your doorstep?

Maybe something similar could be done with Tom.

It's not a bad idea, I'll do events next, so I'll see if this can done simply (with only XML). But what would trigger Tom? What would he do, after all?

It's not a bad idea, I'll do events next, so I'll see if this can done simply (with only XML). But what would trigger Tom? What would he do, after all?
In order to trigger Tom Bombadil, it could be a totally random occurance. Maybe if you have a unit entering a Forest tile (this forest tile representing the Old Forest) could randomly create a Tom Bombadil unit? :confused:

As for what he'd do ... Well I can think of two things that he did in the book:

1. He resisted the One Ring
2. Drove the Barrow Wights away from the hobbits

#1 is an extremely great achievement. Perhaps if someone was working on the One Ring wonder, they'd have to start the "building" process from the start if you had Tom as a unit on your side? Or perhaps this could be a "use-only-once" unit that dissappears once you delay the enemy civ's creation of the One Ring?

#2 the unit could be used to fight supernatural units (wights, undead, wraiths, etc.). Thats pretty limiting however, and I don't think it'd be appropriate to have him roaming around outside of the Forest square you discovered him (Tom would never leave the Old Forest!).

I would go with the first option. You wouldn't be able to move Bombadil out of his single Forest tile, so you'd need to protect and wait to use him once an enemy civ begins production of the One Ring (which I suppose you could get notifications about if you possess a Tom Bombadil unit).

If an enemy unit were to enter the same tile that Bombadil is on, I could either see the unit unable to be taken capture (he's a pretty sneaky guy) or to simply dissappear (with a random chance of him reappearing on said Forest tile maybe? Then other civs could get this unit up for grabs).

Now, if that Forest tile that Bombadil is on is cut down, then I think Bombadil should dissappear entirely (He's a spirit of the Forest: what better way to get rid of one then to chop his forest away?).

Just some ideas, might be better off leaving Bombadil out of the mod.

great achievement. Perhaps if someone was working on the One Ring wonder, they'd have to start the "building" process from the start if you had Tom as a unit on your side? Or perhaps this could be a "use-only-once" unit that dissappears once you delay the enemy civ's creation of the One Ring?


"Power to defy our enemy is not in him." - Galdor, councilor of Elrond. It would be better to maybe make him somehow be a "safe" for the ringbearer. Perhaps by stealthing him. I don't know if we have ringbearer functionality though.

"Power to defy our enemy is not in him." - Galdor, councilor of Elrond. It would be better to maybe make him somehow be a "safe" for the ringbearer. Perhaps by stealthing him. I don't know if we have ringbearer functionality though.
Yeah I know that quote ...

I'm just trying to stretch out a reason for why anyone would want to find ol' Tom! :lol:

Maybe if the Ring brings any deficiencies of the Ringbearing civ's enemies, then having Tom on your side could neglect these deficiencies? Yeah okay, that's pretty far fetched too I suppose ...

Bombadil could just be an Easter Egg, with no real purpose except to strain the mind of the player wondering what the fat and jolly little man in yellow boots is supposed to do. And (of course) everytime he appears, he sings one of his silly songs! :p

Bombadil could just be an Easter Egg, with no real purpose except to strain the mind of the player wondering what the fat and jolly little man in yellow boots is supposed to do. And (of course) everytime he appears, he sings one of his silly songs! :p

I raelly like this idea :goodjob:

Who will be brave enough to actually voice record Bombadill's nonsensical verses?

i would, but idk if i have a good voice for it...

I'll give it a go...:crazyeye:

Yes, that would fit. The mother of all giant spiders, Ungoliant, was originally a servant of Melkor, but turned against him. Some should serve the Shadow, some should be wild.

I'd say that Ungoliant was for a time an ally of Melkor, not a servant. Melkor himself was rather afraid of her. Ungoliant was actually a rather powerful Maia who fell on her own (she rebelled just like Melkor did, but was never one of his followers. She was arguably more evil than either dark lord), capable of consuming light and "emitting darkness so deep it was a substance of its own, not merely the absence of light" (I forget the exact wording), but there were other giant spiders that were merely animals. She mated with one, and created a race of spiders (ending with Shelob) that was partially supernatural.

I don't see Giant spiders as buildable units. Having one barbarian (or possibly shadow) hero with the ability to spawn more would be better.



Honestly, I have trouble seeing how Tom Bombadil can fit in the game as a unit; I would rather he be limited to a series of events, which won't necessarily have much impact on the game.

I'm undecided out how how to implement the Ents (their own civ, barbs, spwned by events, etc)


It wouldn't be particularly hard to have a unit spawn randomly, but there could be trouble with making a Watcher be able to move in water and rivers. I guess you could make it able to move on "all tiles" and then restrict its movement to those next to rivers (probably requiring SDK changes). Of course, you could also try changing rivers to be water tiles instead of a feature between tiles (possibly a good idea seeing as how many were navigable and hard to cross), but that would be a pretty major change from the way Civ IV works now (I guess you could handle most of it by using custom maps with long tin sections of coasts).

thanks :)

glad to see you here magister.

That's a good idea about having ungoliant spawn the spiders. (maybe ungoliant could be randomly barbarian or shadow?)

"Power to defy our enemy is not in him." - Galdor, councilor of Elrond. It would be better to maybe make him somehow be a "safe" for the ringbearer. Perhaps by stealthing him. I don't know if we have ringbearer functionality though.

Tom is not affected by the ring, nor he cares about it... what does he actually do is shelter the ringbearer and his fellows... and then save them once again as they get chanted on their way out of his place towards Bree (btw I might muff some nomenclature since in the Italian version the names and places are different..:hmm: sorry about that)...
Couldn't he activate a promotion-like thing on the ringbearer, like medicine or march? He could popup (invisibel goody hut?) as you enter a choosen or casual forest spot and then disappear forever (maybe sticking with the ringbearer unit as the Great General does, a "blessed by Tom" tag?)... Otherwise, since (don't remember the exact words) he was on here before everybody else and will still be there when everybody else is gone, he could just move into another foerst spot until someone else finds him, all the way through the game?

p.s. HI everybody, this place is coooool!!!

Ya know, in both the LotR books and the 2 LotR games, Tom Bombadil was very, very minor. He never had more impact than the Trolls Bilbo and the Dwarves met in The Hobbit. Cuz of that, I'd leave him out. Yeah, he sounds cool to have, but puttin such an insignificant character (don't even try to argue that he isn't insignificant) in this mod makes little sense. If ya put in every single hero possible, then you'd have over 100 heroes. That jus makes it utterly cluttered.

(don't even try to argue that he isn't insignificant)

I won't...;) I guess significancy is up to the reader's thought... after all, Tom wasn't mentioned in the movies, and they were grat even if they didn't stick up with the original story...
but you're probably right about the game... sigh...
but still... would a "some of your workers in the woods near [cityname] met a strange friendly fellow named Tom and your forest gives +1 happy face" occuring event be a fair enough compromise?:D

Yeah, that would work well. That mentions him and makes it so he's there but not too big. Yeah, I like that.

I agree.
I can foresee a whole series of events base on him... giving major bonuses, but not game breaking ones.

Why a series? Maybe ya should explain. And possibly outline how the series would go?

when i say series i mean a whole selection of events. (maybe a chain, but maybe not...)

And I'm wonderin if you could please layout that series. i.e. Event 1, Event 2, etc. Then we could see those events and wat they do.

One event could be that if evil invades the Shire, Tom Bombadil is spawned as a unit with lvl 5 strength and 2 movement and maybe promotions to give bonuses and a spell or two. Then when evil leaves the Shire, he disappears. This event could be repeated every time evil invades the Shire, unless Tom is killed by evil.

for exmplae...

I'de have to think out a few, but i'll do so eventually.

Ok, fair nough. Wat ya think of mine? (See above.)

I think it's a good idea, but i don't see how to do it.


edit: more and more, i'm thinking we should use the FFH code to start off, as there is a mechanic that would do that...

do you have anymore ideas?

FfH code is the best code to use for a mod that's goin to be as dynamic as this one. I know we use it for Dragonia.

There are better codes to use than FfH's: FfH modmods. Xienwolf's xml modcomp adds a lot of useful things.


I still oppose having Tom Bombadil ever being a unit, but think some Bombadil events are a must. Some might have a huge impact on the game, while others are purely for entertainment.

Which one would you recomend? xienwolfs? (i've never even palyed his modmod... :blush:)

His isn't really a modmod, it is a modcomp. Its mostly SDK/xml schema changes, with just a few examples of how new tags can be used. It isn't designed to be balanced or fun to play. The point is mostly to make and share changes in the base code that will make modmods better. He is planning to release his own modmod using it, sometime soon, but won't release details on what it will include.


xienwolfs modcomp would probably be a good base, but is is still changing. There is a long list of things I've requested on the third post, along with a couple suggestions by others. Those things may or may not be added.

If you want a more complex alignment system based on actions instead of just religion, them Broader Alignments is a must. Unfortunately Grey Fox has not updated it to 0.32, and doesn;t really plan to keep working on it (except for combined with his Commanders modmod, I guess).

Fall Further might be a good choice too. The latest version includes Broader Alignments and Xienwolf's xml modcomp (not the latest version of the modcomp though. It doesn't have anything related to Duration or dynamic UUs)

Mirkwood could be this huge, huge place where half of your units die:eek: :D

well... i the outsider think if you want that effect, you should have spiders. spiders that can only travel in forrest. remember, the elvenking did just fine in mirkwood. then again i just saw this post and probably got this completely out of context and don't know what i'm talking about... like with gandalf...

no, no... that's okay. If i recall correctly, spiders in ffh can only travel on forest

Giant Spiders in FFH can travel through any type of terrain. There is no limitation that I've seen (I've been using a couple of spiders in my last game to bother my neighbours :D )